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<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2024-03-25</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Monday, 25 March 2024</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 10:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Line" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Line"> </span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Meeting</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As there are no objections, the meeting is authorised.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Scheme</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government continues to reiterate its view that it cannot agree with the assertions made in this motion. We do, however, acknowledge the interest in the chamber in reforming the NDIS to get it back on track and ensure its sustainability for future generations of Australians. I also acknowledge the recent commitment by the Leader of the Opposition to working together with the government to this end.</para>
<para>On 8 February 2024, the government tabled the final report of the Independent Review of the National Disability Insurance Scheme, which was publicly released in December 2023. In producing this report, the independent NDIS review panel travelled to every state and territory, including regional and remote communities. It heard directly from more than 10,000 Australians, worked with disability organisations to reach out and listen to more than 1,000 people with disability and their families, recorded more than 2,000 personal stories, and received almost 4,000 submissions. The review delivered 26 recommendations and 139 supporting actions to respond to its terms of reference. In delivering its recommendations, the review provided exhaustive analysis and proposals to improve the operation, effectiveness and sustainability of the NDIS. The independent NDIS review panel has said its reforms can improve the scheme and meet National Cabinet's annual growth target of no more than eight per cent growth by 1 July 2026. Discussions have continued with senators across this chamber, as well as members in the other place, to address questions about the government's NDIS reform agenda that it is pursuing together with the disability community. We look forward to working with senators in this place to get the NDIS back on track and ensure its sustainability for future generations of Australians.</para>
<para>In relation to the order being discussed, the government has previously outlined that it has claimed public interest immunity over the requested documents as disclosure would prejudice relations between the Commonwealth and the states and territories. The Minister representing the Treasurer has already tabled key documents for the benefit of the Senate in addition to the aforementioned review.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the explanation.</para></quote>
<para>Once again, we see the government come in here and refuse to comply with the Senate's orders using the same, tired, worn-out talking points that they have been parroting in this place for month after month. Let's just be really clear; the independent review of the NDIS's final report is not relevant to the orders of the Senate. It does not contain the documentation that the Senate has requested. The information tabled by the Treasurer is not relevant to the orders of the Senate. It does not contain the information that the Senate has requested. The government is in flagrant violation of the orders given to it by the Senate and has repeatedly failed to provide documentation proving that its public interest immunity claim has any grounds. All that they would be required to do is present to the Senate a letter from the state and territory premiers and chief ministers backing them up. They can't produce that information because it doesn't exist.</para>
<para>This is a critical issue for the Senate. The National Disability Insurance Scheme matters. It affects the lives of over 640,000 disabled Australians. We deserve to know what the government has already committed to in relation to our NDIS, because let's remember that in the middle of last year, halfway through the independent review, the government brought down a budget and, on the basis of a so-called sustainability framework, booked over $50 billion of so-called savings to our NDIS—the very framework which the government is refusing to release to the public. What are we seeing now? I can tell you what I am seeing. I am seeing more participants coming to my office in critical need of help with plans that have run out of funding and without access to the supports that they need—to have a shower, to get their catheters, to get their basic supports, to get the support hours that they need—than I have done in seven years.</para>
<para>We were able to identify some of the drivers of these wait times and these terrible situations that people are confronted with. It is the botched rollout of the pay system by the NDIS, combined with a seemingly complete inability to plan for the very predictable outcome that, given the government refuses to release this baseline information about what it intends to do with the NDIS, more people are contacting the agency than they previously have done. Why, I have to ask, is it that the pay scheme is being rolled out in such a way that it is failing so profoundly? It is failing profoundly. We heard at estimates that the agency has been unable to provide the public with aggregate data in relation to the NDIS since September 2023. They are unable to comply with the participant service guarantee. In simple terms, this means they're not able to tell anybody what the wait times are, why the wait times exist, what people are waiting for, how many people are waiting for access to the scheme, how many people are waiting for a review or how many people are requesting a change to their plan. It is unable to tell us any of this information, because of the botched rollout of the pay scheme.</para>
<para>At the same time, they seem to be already implementing some of the changes which have been flagged by the review to only take place in the context of new services that do not currently exist. They are rolling out a program right now, the community connections program, which requires participants, it seems, to fill in a community connections plan. Now, the agency swears that this is not mandatory for access to the scheme, yet participant after participant comes to us and says that this is what they're being told. This is resulting in another unnecessary delay.</para>
<para>The government has a responsibility to be transparent with the Australian public, particularly with disabled people, to whom they pledged greater transparency and consultation. The government must now comply with the Senate's orders.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To Senator Steele-John's point around transparency, I would say that it wasn't just to the disability community that those opposite promised transparency. They promised transparency to the Australian people, yet as soon as they got their backsides on those government benches the clouds came in, the opacity increased and the curtains came down, and what we now learn in a number of areas—not even just around the NDIS but also, we understand, around the religious discrimination bill, and we see it with the fuel emissions standards—is that negotiations are happening in secret. Consultations are happening in secret and, in some instances, those that are consulted with are being forced to sign NDAs. This is a government that is petrified of transparency.</para>
<para>But where there is such an issue with this lack of transparency and with the disdain that this government is showing to the Senate by refusing to release these documents it has been told it must release is the fact that it has actually baked the savings into the budget. It is saying that there will be an eight per cent cap on growth, and it has baked those savings into the budget. In fact, it's now looking like it will be in excess of $60 billion. That is a big black hole, because what we do know about the growth of the NDIS at the moment is that it is tracking at around 15 per cent, so it is almost double what those opposite have put in their budget. This is a serious issue. This is $60 billion that's going to have to be found somewhere.</para>
<para>Now, this is a demand driven scheme, so there are two ways you can make savings: you can cut participants or you can cut the average value of their plans—that's it. But there are other efficiencies that could be made. I don't know who those opposite are doing this alleged consultation with. One of the issues we've got is with the price guide. No-one has come to talk to me about the price guide. No-one has come to talk to the NDIS joint standing committee about the price guide.</para>
<para>We know that those opposite have a slogan: 'same job, same pay'. They love that—same job, same pay—except if you're getting paid by the taxpayer. If you're a provider with DVA or with aged care, you earn less than if you're charging an NDIS participant, because the price guide for NDIS participants is set by the board and is at the highest level—higher than anywhere else. Therefore, businesses are charging more than if someone is a veteran, more than if they have a health care card, more than if they're an aged care participant and more than if they're just a general member of the public.</para>
<para>What has absolutely appalled me this weekend while I've been having a look at this—Instagram has very interesting algorithms for how you get things—is that I've been getting all of these NDIS advertisements on my Instagram and things that it has suggested I follow. They were particularly around supported independent living, which is an area that is ripe for reform. Lots of people talk about the number of participants with autism. Autism is about five per cent of the NDIS spend. The biggest part of the NDIS spend is in supported independent living. All of these ads and suggestions for me to follow on Instagram were advertisements to invest in housing for supported independent living, and the rates of return that these organisations were promising were wild. We're talking about a 25 or 35 per cent rate of return annually on these properties that you invest in to go into supported independent living, because it's funded by the NDIS.</para>
<para>We know that there are providers that are absolutely rorting this system. They are completely and utterly rorting this system. But guess who a lot of them are? They're the old block-funded guys. They're the guys whose workers are all members of the union. And guess where everything that Mr Shorten is looking at is? He's attacking unregistered providers. 'Unregistered provider' doesn't mean 'unskilled'. It doesn't mean 'unqualified'. It just means that they might be a sole provider. They might be a small business and can't afford the audit costs imposed on them by the NDIA. These providers are not unskilled. We do need to look at, perhaps, a scalability of registration. Why not have a website where they put their name, their ABN, what skills they have, their qualifications and their working with children and police checks, without the onerous NDIA requirements?</para>
<para>These are all savings that could be made, because the CEO actually told us in estimates that the least amount of fraud occurs within self-managed participants. Do you know why that is? It's because the participants work directly, quite often, with a sole provider who provides bespoke services. You don't end up with whatever worker these big old block funders send you each week without any goal provision being factored into when they are working for you. Many of these guys offer nothing but glorified babysitting services, which is not the intent of the scheme. But these are not conversations that we can have, because Mr Shorten's hiding. Mr Shorten won't talk to those in the sector, and this lot are baking in a $60 billion black hole that we're all going to have to pay for.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to talk to the issue of the lack of transparency and the unwillingness to reveal critical information that the Senate needs to do its job. This isn't new, of course—it's a pattern, and it goes across all shades of government—but it undermines democracy. It undermines good decision-making. How on earth can we make good decisions if we haven't got a body of evidence in front of us? Trying to make decisions that will suit a particular perspective and ignore the evidence that suits the other is the sort of thing that totally undermines people's trust in our democracy, because people know that decisions are being made on a political basis rather than on an evidence basis. It would be wonderful in this place if we could agree. Even if we disagree on what to do about a problem, let's at least get all of the evidence on the table about what the problem is. Then we can have a sensible discussion about how to move forward. As I said, the unwillingness and refusal of the government to release these documents is something that has been characteristic of governments of both Labor and coalition persuasions for a very long time. This government said they were going to be different, but they have been exactly the same.</para>
<para>I have currently got an ongoing process going through freedom of information for documents related to sports rorts from the previous government, and the department is still fighting. They're appealing against having to release these documents. You remember sports rorts: the manipulation of funding for party political purposes, which the ANAO did an incredibly scathing report about. It dates back to before the 2019 election. That's a very long time. There was a critical document that this Senate requested through an order for the production of documents that we did not get. It's related to the so-called talking points memo that an adviser in then minister McKenzie's office prepared for the minister before a meeting with the Prime Minister. This document was blocked. It was not provided through the order for production of documents. I have been pursuing it through freedom of information, and we are now at the stage where the Information Commissioner has agreed that the document should be released. The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner said three weeks ago, 'Yes, this document should be released.' However, the department has had four weeks to appeal. That four weeks is up on Wednesday, in two days time. We will see whether the department, under this government, is still trying to hide information from the public that is critical for an understanding of good governance. It's critical to be laying bare the information that is being used and the misinformation that is being misused in decision-making in this place.</para>
<para>We've also got an order for production of documents at the moment about issues relating to a contract which was incredibly dodgy, supposedly improving the operations of Meals on Wheels. Meals on Wheels is an incredibly important institution in this country, but the department employed a contractor who, frankly, did an appalling job and divided the Meals on Wheels community across the country. There is a whole range of documents that I'm trying to seek at the moment, to unpack just how badly this contract was managed by the department and the poor job that the contractor did. But we're still waiting on those documents. Again, if we actually had the evidence base we could say: 'This is what's happened. This is the information that we need in order to be able to make some rational evidence based decisions moving forward.' But what it goes to is that governments of both persuasions aren't interested in evidence based decisions. They aren't interested in making decisions that properly evaluate the information on the table. What they are interested in is making decisions that suit their mates. What they are interested in is trying to pull the wool over our eyes about decisions, because it's information that suits their mates. That's what has such a corrupting influence on our democracy. It's what makes people not trust what governments do. Transparency of information is incredibly important in good governance. That's why this issue is so critical.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We hear a lot about transparency in government from Mr Albanese, the Prime Minister, and we hear a lot about transparency in government from his representatives in this place. But talk is cheap. What we need to see is a government delivering on transparency in government.</para>
<para>There would be few, if any, better places for the government to start demonstrating transparency in government than by releasing the NDIS financial sustainability framework. The reason the release of that framework is so critical is that it's the framework the government relied on when it made its decision to set the growth of the NDIS scheme at eight per cent by 1 July 2026. Let's be clear about what that decision actually means. That means cutting $59 billion out of the NDIS over a decade. That is $59 billion that, in the absence of this decision, could be spent on improving the lives of disabled people in Australia. Some of the fundamental rights that they have could have been underpinned by the expenditure of that $59 billion.</para>
<para>Labor, disgracefully, has made the decision to undercut the supports that disabled people will receive in Australia into the future. In making that decision, they are relying on a secret document which disabled people and the rest of the country are not able to read and are not able to understand because Labor are keeping that framework a secret. That is disgraceful. It is insulting. And it's not just insulting to disabled people—although it clearly is insulting to disabled people—it's insulting to all Australians. Everyone has got a right to know what the government is relying on when it makes a decision to slash and burn such vital expenditure into the future.</para>
<para>That $59 billion cut was the biggest cut in the budget in which that decision was made. The Labor Party, which went to the election claiming it would do everything it could to look after disabled people, has turned around and massively cut the funding that would allow for vital and urgent supports to be given to disabled people in Australia. Of course the supports available to disabled people in their plans are now under threat, and many disabled people in Australia are rightfully nervous that their plans are going to be affected by this cut. They want to understand why the government has made this cut, but they can't understand it because they simply do not have access to the framework. That is the issue here.</para>
<para>I want disabled people to know that they have an absolutely staunch and passionate advocate in this Senate in Senator Steele-John. They'll have heard his speech today and they'll have heard a multitude of speeches that Senator Steele-John has made not just on this issue relating to disabled people but on a range of other issues. I want the disability community to know that it is not only Senator Steele-John who's an ally, although he shoulders a lot of the responsibility for this. In the Australian Greens they have a group of allies. They have a group of allies who are prepared to go to the wall and fight for the rights of disabled people—a group of people in this chamber who are prepared to be counted as allies and go in to bat for proper funding so that disabled people can lead dignified lives in Australia.</para>
<para>The NDIS was a critical reform in Australia that was brought in, I acknowledge, by a former Labor government. This is the time for Labor to rediscover itself, to actually not only release this framework but increase the supports available for disabled people in Australia. The Greens are with disabled people. We are—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McKim. There being no other contributions in this debate, I put the question that the motion be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>4</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Israel</title>
          <page.no>4</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion relating to military equipment trade with Israel, as circulated.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice of motion standing in the name of Senator Waters, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would prevent Senator Waters moving a motion to provide for the consideration of a matter, namely a motion to give precedence to a motion relating to military equipment trade with Israel.</para></quote>
<para>This motion is asking the Senate to call on the government to immediately end all trade of military equipment with the State of Israel. If you want to know why this is urgent, it's because more than 30,000 Palestinians have already lost their lives, the majority being women and children, and this government is content for ongoing two-way trade, military trade, with the State of Israel. It is content to send weapons and weapons parts to Israel to literally fuel the genocide, and then, perhaps as offensively, it also welcomes signing new contracts with major Israeli arms manufacturers for equipment that is literally being tested on the Palestinian people as we speak.</para>
<para>The Albanese government has just signed a contract of $917 million of public money with Israeli arms manufacturer Elbit Systems for the Redback integrated turret, which, in the spin of the defence industry, is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… based on the latest generation of Elbit's 30 mm manned turret with the COAPS gunner sight, additional electro-optical systems, Iron Fist active protection system, Elbit's Iron-Vision advanced situational awareness head mounted display system and Elbit's ELAWS laser warning system—</para></quote>
<para>all weapon systems that Elbit is currently using to kill Palestinian people, to kill Palestinian kids and to kill Palestinian women. The Albanese government looked around the world and said, 'Yes, we want a bit of that,' and they've agreed to a $917 million contract with Elbit Systems for that. It is obscene that Australia is seeking to provide so much wealth to a company that is currently making record profits from the weapons it's literally testing on the Palestinian people—utterly obscene.</para>
<para>Where is it being used? We know it's being used, because the IDF posted images of it. It's used on the Eitan wheeled armoured personnel carrier, which literally went in on day 1 of the invasion of Gaza—the first time it was used by the Israeli military. The Israeli military celebrated how this Eitan eight-wheeled vehicle is going to be featuring for the first time, they said, this Elbit's Iron Fist active protection system—designed by Elbit, sold to Australia and bought by the Albanese Labor government—with target detection radar and launcher countermeasures. How are we possibly a part of this trade? How could the Albanese government possibly be thinking that the two-way military trade with Israel should ever be a part of the Australian public spend?</para>
<para>It's not just this one weapons system with Elbit. The Israeli defence industry—Rafael—has signed agreements with the Albanese government. You can see pictures of Albanese ministers going to the factories that they've got in Australia—for example, Varley Rafael at Tomago in the Hunter. You can see Albanese Labor ministers there celebrating the fact that the Albanese Labor government has signed contracts with Rafael to produce the spike missile here. The control systems for the spike missile used by the ADF are manufactured in New South Wales. Just to be clear: the spike missile is again being experimented with on Palestinian people, and it's an obscene weapon. It's designed to punch through the reinforced concrete walls of apartment buildings in Palestine and, when they punch through the wall, to release a cloud of lethal shrapnel to kill everything within a 20-metre radius. Not only is the Albanese government buying more of those missiles that have been experimented with on the Palestinian people but it has also entered into joint manufacturing contracts—again, with tens and tens and tens of millions of dollars of public money. We must stop the two-way military trade with Israel. We must not be complicit in the genocide. The Australian people deserve a far more ethical government than the Albanese Labor government.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The proposition that is being advanced this morning by Senator Shoebridge so lacks honesty, so lacks seriousness and so lacks morality. It's the petard upon which Senator Shoebridge hoists himself every day. If you're going to be serious, if you're going to have morality and if you're going to have honesty, do you know what you have to do? You have to tell the truth. You have to have some regard for the facts. You have to have some moral seriousness about the position that you advance, and this political party has never been a serious partner for this government on the most serious international issues.</para>
<para>This proposition that has been advanced is so shallow and so dishonest, and it is designed to achieve only one thing: to dishonestly stoke division in the Australian community. That is what it is for. That is why there are thousands of antisemitic memes being circulated in the Australian community. It's because this show that purports to be a political party advances the kinds of propositions that they do. It's not much better on the other side of the chamber, on the other side of the argument—advancing propositions that are extremist, that use hyperbole and that use words that are designed to divide.</para>
<para>One of the reasons that we know that this is the case in terms of the proposition that has been advanced is that the situation has been explained to Senator Shoebridge so many times by the Minister for Foreign Affairs in estimates and in here. Evidence has been provided by defence officials over and over and over again. If you just choose to ignore the facts and promulgate a false narrative on this story, all you are about is promoting division—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A little bit of shoosh from you down there, son—a little bit of shoosh.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Shoebridge, order! Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's like a behavioural disorder, honestly! Unable to be quiet. We sat quietly while you—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I suspect that the procedural—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, and please remember to direct your remarks through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to reiterate, Chair, what the government has made clear all through this process. Australia has not supplied weapons to Israel since the conflict began and for at least the past five years. So why is—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're a pathological liar!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Shoebridge, it would assist the chamber if you could withdraw that remark.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw the remark.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Urquhart</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: I would also ask Senator Steele-John to withdraw the comment that he made, and I would ask them to cease interjecting. We listened to them and their contribution and I expect them to show the minister the same courtesy.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Steele-John</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to withdraw for the facilitation of the chamber, but I'm not actually sure which comment you're referring to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Steele-John</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay. I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just before you begin, Minister, I am going to request that we listen to the minister in silence. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Australia has a stringent export control framework. It is designed to ensure that military and dual-use items that are exported from Australia are used responsibly. No arms have been supplied to Israel over the course of the last five years. The Deputy Prime Minister said, 'Australia's defence export control regime is one which is thorough and detailed as it applies to defence exports or dual-use items to anywhere in the world.' This position that's been advanced, once again, is not a serious position. It's on that basis that I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chamber is that the motion be put.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:41] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Allman-Payne) </p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>26</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>12</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now before the chair is that the substantive motion, as moved by Senator Shoebridge, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:44]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Allman-Payne)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>12</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>25</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>7</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024, Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>7</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7087" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7121" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>7</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 are important bills that are before the chamber. They are important in terms of what they individually stand for and also in terms of how they collectively form part of the way in which Australia addresses its responsibilities and commitments to our AUKUS partners.</para>
<para>I'm very proud to have been part of the government and to have played a role as finance minister when AUKUS was founded in 2021. It is an historical defence and security pact between the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia. This key partnership provided for Australia to take steps to acquire critical, word-leading defence capabilities—in particular, nuclear powered submarines as well as advanced defence and security technologies under the Pillar II stream of AUKUS. AUKUS is a multi-generational nation-building task. It is important to our national security; to ensuring that Australia's defence forces have the capabilities that equip them to operate with stealth and capacity across our region in defence of our nation and its interests; and to ensuring that, underpinning this, our defence industry, alongside our defence force, has the capability to supply and support our defence forces and our nation long into the future. Off of that, we can leverage the immense potential that can come from cooperation and the sharing of some of the world's most important and sensitive technologies, and Australian businesses can leverage other growth opportunities through that sharing of those technologies.</para>
<para>The coalition welcomes the fact that there has been bipartisan support for AUKUS and that, following the change of government in March of last year, the optimal pathway to acquiring nuclear powered submarines was announced, starting with the deployment of US and UK submarines to HMAS <inline font-style="italic">Stirling</inline> in 2027 as part of Submarine Rotational Force - West. We welcome the expectation of Australia acquiring its own Virginia class submarines from the US in the early 2030s and the important steps to build the new SSN AUKUS boats, which will be built in my home state of South Australia and come into operation during the 2040s. It is rare that we have the opportunity to talk about such long-term commitments in this place, and it's important that we recognise the continuity of commitment that will be necessary across governments to realise the full potential of AUKUS.</para>
<para>There has already been important legislation progressed to facilitate the implementation of AUKUS, including in naval nuclear energy regulation. These bills that the government seeks to have passage of—the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024—enhance Australia's security and export framework to facilitate AUKUS and to demonstrate Australia's progress to both the United States and the United Kingdom and to show that we are acting in concert with them and that we are ensuring the regulatory frameworks for that sharing of the most sensitive of information and ensuring that that occurs in an environment of greater security and confidence.</para>
<para>To touch on the bills briefly themselves: firstly, the safeguarding Australia's military secrets bill amends the Defence Act 1903 to prevent former defence staff and Australian Defence Force members from working for and transferring sensitive information to foreign military, governments or government entities without authorisation from the Minister for Defence. It is safe to say that Australians were shocked when there were reports in the last couple of years that some former Defence Force members were providing training or potentially information to foreign governments and foreign militaries. We expect that those who have worn our uniform with pride and whose service we salute and rightly thank them for should equally carry with them the expectations of maintaining Australia's national interests and, in maintaining Australia's national interests, not sharing such knowledge or information with foreign governments—particularly not, of course, with any who could be potential adversaries in any way to Australia's national interest.</para>
<para>The SAMS bill ensures other Australian citizens or permanent residents would be prevented from providing training, techniques or procedures to foreign militaries, governments or government entities without authorisation. Where a person does undertake these activities without authorisation, the bill establishes significant penalties: a maximum penalty of up to 20 years of imprisonment, befitting the significance of potentially betraying your country and its security interests. We are committed to safeguarding our national military secrets and to working on a bipartisan basis with the government in terms of Australia's national security, and we support the passage of the SAMS bill to address these very rare but very serious instances or risks to our security and defence information acquired by individuals.</para>
<para>The second of these bills amends the Defence Trade Controls Act 2012. It seeks to strengthen Australia's defence exports framework and facilitate seamless transfer of technology as contemplated by the AUKUS agreement. Naturally, within this there are a couple of critical points. The first is that AUKUS requires that seamless transfer of technology and information. We are asking the United States to share its most sensitive defence technologies with Australia, only the second country with whom they ever will have shared technologies and information around their nuclear submarine capabilities. It is a big step, it is a big test of trust and it is important that we demonstrate the capacities to manage that information with great sensitivity.</para>
<para>Of course, we must also make sure that our defence industries who work with partners beyond the United States and the United Kingdom have confidence that they will be able to continue to do so wherever and whenever that is in the national interest for them to do so and where it can underpin their critical role in supporting a defence industrial capability in Australia that is essential for our future. This requires us to have not only a robust but also an administratively effective export-control regime to meet these different objectives. The United States and the United Kingdom have agreed to streamline the flow of defence trade and technology collaborations, including by establishing an export licence-free environment which will support industry, education and research sectors in all three nations. This is very significant. It's the huge potential upside of AUKUS and it goes beyond just the nuclear powered submarines and into the great realm of many pillar 2 opportunities that exist within AUKUS.</para>
<para>We welcome this, and it's critical that Australia fully embraces this potential to ensure that our industry sectors receive the best opportunities out of AUKUS, that they maximise those opportunities to feed into the supply chains of the US and the UK and seize opportunities way beyond those that would exist solely within Australia. To facilitate this, the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill will regulate the supply, through the Defence and Strategic Goods List, of military or dual-use technology to foreign persons within Australia. It will regulate the supply of certain Defence and Strategic Goods List military or dual-use goods and technology from a place outside of Australia to another place outside of Australia or to a foreign person. It will also regulate the provision of services in similar ways, and it will remove the requirement to obtain a permit for suppliers of certain goods and technology and the provision of certain services to those in the UK or the US.</para>
<para>The coalition wants to see swift passage of this bill and has always wanted to see swift passage of this bill to ensure that we can achieve the objectives under AUKUS. The government has indicated that, since the passing of the National Defence Authorisation Act in December of last year by the US Congress, the timetable for passing the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill needs to ensure that we meet a deadline by the end of this parliamentary sitting period. We have acknowledged that and the importance of Australia not falling behind in implementing AUKUS.</para>
<para>Legislation passed by the US Congress requires a certification from the US President to be satisfied of Australia's progress in implementing security and export frameworks as contemplated by these bills, and that should be done at 120-day intervals following the enactment of the legislation by the US Congress. The first certification date occurs between this week and the next sitting of our parliament, and 20 April 2024 is the first deadline, if you like, for that indication to be given by the US President. We don't wish to see any delay.</para>
<para>Importantly, though, this legislation establishes a regulatory framework through which each of the AUKUS partner jurisdictions then is contingent on ensuring their regulations are developed appropriately. We have, particularly through the work of the Senate Foreign Affairs Defence and Trade Committee, ensured that there is strong engagement with industry and have been listening carefully to industry about the implications of this bill. It is critical to us that the way in which defence operates and develops the regulations envisaged under this bill is sensitive to the needs of industry.</para>
<para>We acknowledge that our support for the passage of these bills has been provided on the basis of the following step: enhancing the co-design of regulations for the defence export framework with recommended industry working group participants representing Australian sovereign, small and medium enterprises. This was an issue particularly championed by my colleague Senator David Fawcett, and I acknowledge his close working relationship with many of those SMEs in our defence industry sector and his right and correct insistence that those SMEs have a key role in the design of the regulations to ensure that they are workable and administratively manageable for those businesses.</para>
<para>We also welcome the agreement from the government to a statutory review time frame of three years from commencement to evaluate the function of the updated defence export legislation and its framework. We welcome the commitment from the Deputy Prime Minister to establish a new statutory parliamentary joint committee on defence as soon as possible. This will be a critical undertaking for AUKUS to ensure that, as a country, we have an appropriate oversight mechanism that can do the job that is necessary in a way that also maintains the confidence that is necessary in the AUKUS venture.</para>
<para>The coalition has indicated our expectation that this be completed by the winter break, and we welcome the acknowledgement from the DPM's office. He has stated on several occasions that that draft joint committee on defence legislation will be available within weeks, and we look forward to seeing that and to its swift progress. We have been calling for this since the change of government to ensure that there is appropriate oversight in an appropriately classified and protected space that can get transparency and accountability right while also ensuring that we can deliver confidence for this critical venture.</para>
<para>It's through this framework that we seek to be satisfied, and with the levels of consultation that Defence now undertakes around the regulation and with stakeholders on the bill, and with the government's commitments to regulatory co-design and consultation going forward. We're also informed that the government will propose a number of amendments to the bill to address academic and defence industry concerns raised during the Senate committee inquiry and otherwise during the course of consultation on these provisions. We, again, welcome that and acknowledge the bipartisan spirit with which the opposition and the government have been able to work through these important issues to ensure that concerns can be addressed in the legislation, as well as through the effective drafting of the regulations.</para>
<para>These are important mechanisms to ensure that a critical piece of our national security architecture progresses and is delivered upon. It requires the parties of government to act maturely and to work together, particularly in the face of the type of destructive and obstinate approach that we will no doubt hear from some on the crossbench shortly, who appear to be committed to a lengthy filibuster of these bills rather than to the prioritisation of our national defence and security interests, which is certainly what the opposition is doing through our constructive approach with the government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's unusual, but far from atypical, to see the coalition and Labor, the war parties, teaming up to cause self-harm to Australia. But, of course, that's what the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 actually will do. It's an act of collective destruction, particularly against Australia's scientific community, and it's designed to wall off the Australian scientific and research community from the great bulk of global science and research. To see it being proposed by the Labor Party and then aggressively supported by the coalition simply because it's got the word 'AUKUS' in it is quite an extraordinary prospect. This is part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation that the government says is designed to keep Australians safer, but this legislation, especially the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill, will actually make Australia less smart and, ultimately, less safe.</para>
<para>The purpose of the bill is to create a bubble between the US, the UK and Australia for the purposes of defence research and for the purposes, particularly, of weapons research. That's its purported purpose. It's meant to make it easier for us to receive US weapons and to exchange research on weapons and weapon systems, primarily with the US. The UK is in this as well, but most people would describe the UK as the sick man of Europe at the moment. The UK defence bubble is hardly a bubble you'd want to join, but the UK is in the bubble as well. Within that bubble, the idea is that there'll be an export licence-free exchange of military equipment, military related hardware and military related research. But that's a tiny bubble, and in a global world where the bulk of critical research on things like artificial intelligence, lasers and super conductors is not being done in the UK, the US or Australia, it's not happening in the bubble. What's happening outside of the bubble is vastly more important. And Australia's ability—Australian researchers, scientists and small and medium enterprises—to engage with economies and researchers outside of the bubble is what will keep us safe. The bulk of the global cutting-end research is going to occur outside of that bubble.</para>
<para>With this bill, if a researcher engages in AI research, maybe laser research, super conductor research or other research Defence thinks may cut across national security outside the bubble if they haven't got their pre-approved licence it's literally a 'go directly to jail, you have no defences' bill. The chill that that's already put through the research community, through the academies of sciences, through groups like Science and Technology Australia—if you follow the evidence we had in the Senate committee—and through pretty much every higher education institute in the country, the chill that it's already put across our economy and across our research sector, you would have thought would be a warning sign to Labor that maybe they've got this wrong. Maybe, actually, jumping in a little Anglosphere bubble and cutting the rest of the world off is not the way of making us safer.</para>
<para>You can understand why the coalition will always do whatever the US wants. That's what they reflexively do. And, of course, the US wants us to jump in a bubble with them and exclude the rest of the world. But why is Labor so keen to do that, to chop us off from the rest of the world simply to toady up to the US on AUKUS? It's probably because they've utterly sold out their principles over decades. It's probably why a bunch of former Labor prime ministers and senior ministers are appalled by the Albanese Labor government's supine surrender to AUKUS. But, in this case, it's industry and the higher education sector who have said, 'Don't do this. Don't rush into this. This is an act of collective self-harm against our research and technology industries. Just don't do it.'</para>
<para>What did we hear from the Senate inquiry into the Defence Trade Control Amendment Bill? We saw the government say, 'This is all about AUKUS. Please put all of your critical thinking in a box, seal it off and don't access that part of your brain, because it's about AUKUS.' That's the basic plan on AUKUS. 'Just carve all of your critical thinking out. Seal it in a zinc box. Put it to one side and get on and do what the US are asking us to do.' That's a neat summary of the Albanese government's plan on AUKUS.</para>
<para>The government will spend $370 billion on nuclear submarines, give $5 billion to the UK for Rolls-Royce. We're literally giving $5 billion of taxpayer money to Rolls-Royce, courtesy of the Albanese government, because everybody knows there's no chance at all of them developing AUKUS SSNs or doing the complex engineering for AUKUS SSNs in the current state of the UK industry. So the Albanese government was thinking, 'What will we do with $5 billion?' They decided to give it to Rolls-Royce—during a housing crisis and a climate crisis. That was Friday's great announcement from the Albanese government, and that's on top of $4.7 billion they're giving to US shipbuilding and US jobs.</para>
<para>In fact, if you just line up the $5 billion payments that Australia have made to overseas economies from which we have not obtained submarines, it's pretty extraordinary. We gave $5 billion to France to not get submarines. Now we've given $5 billion as a downpayment to the US almost certainly not to get submarines, and we just dropped $5 billion on Friday to the UK. How many submarines do we have from that $15 billion spend? The last time I checked, it was nought. For this decade, how many submarines are we going to have for that $15 billion spend to date? Nought. In the early 2030s how many are we going to have for that $15 billion spend? Let me think; I'm going through the optimal pathway—nought. And then we only might get some if Donald Trump says it's a good idea. That's the overall architecture which this bill lies under. That's the AUKUS 'please cease critical thinking' framework that Labor has. This is another part of that AUKUS bill.</para>
<para>The House of Commons research library when looking at this part of the AUKUS agreement, the bubble bit, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A key part of the AUKUS agreement is the pledge contained in the initial leaders' statement to deepen defence ties and enhance joint capabilities and interoperability between all three countries. This includes developing a range of advanced military capabilities that are collectively known as AUKUS pillar 2 activities …</para></quote>
<para>I don't think anyone much outside their defence establishment understands that there are two pillars of AUKUS—both dodgy. The first pillar is the almost $400 billion for nuclear submarines we're not going to get. But this is second-pillar stuff. This is the cooperation on a range of advanced defence military capabilities. Late last year the US Congress passed legislation that exempts Australia and Britain from some of the US's stringent export control requirements under their International Traffic in Arms Regulations, ITAR, scheme but only on the condition that both the UK and Australia pass similarly stringent export control laws. That's what this bill is meant to be. But, of course, this bill should be rejected in full. It has been rushed through, despite significant concerns from business and academia. It fails to address the very real issues that exist already within the Australian defence export regime, and it will have devastating impacts on the research and technology sector if it's passed without radical changes.</para>
<para>To be clear, the Australian Greens here are joining with thousands of academics and the great bulk of people in the nation's advanced manufacturing and research sector who do not want this to go through. In a moment of genuine political irony, this bill, which is being touted as making Australia safer as a national security response to a less certain world, will, in fact, make Australia much less safe. It will stunt academic and economic growth. As Dr John Byron, the Principal Policy Adviser of QUT, said of the bill:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… this whole bill is Boolean: there's ones and zeros; there's nothing in between; it's 'who's in, who's out'. Okay, there's an attempt to create some special conditions with other countries: the Foreign Country List; the use of Five Eyes classification clearances—that kind of thing. But it's still basically about: 'Are you in the tent or outside the tent?'</para></quote>
<para>That description, I think, highlights the issues with the bill. Australia needs to have strong relationships with the vast majority of the research and scientific world that sit outside that Anglosphere tent—that 19th- or 20th-century Anglosphere tent—that Labor and the coalition seem so keen to keep us in.</para>
<para>As Anna-Maria Arabia, the Chief Executive of the Australian Academy of Science, highlighted during the Senate hearing, this law will actually harm leading Australian researchers. The example of the President of the Australian Academy of Science, Professor Jagadish, was provided as follows:</para>
<quote><para class="block">He works in the area of nanotechnology and semiconductor research. He can place 20 lasers in one strand of your hair—and why would he want to do that? Working at that scale means that he can create technology to better diagnose treatment for Alzheimer's disease, which is terrific.</para></quote>
<para>It goes on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">His fundamental research is almost always published, as far as I'm aware. That's what he intends to do all of the time. But before it's published he speaks to his colleagues, he goes to many conferences and he collaborates with 30 countries. He's a fellow of 14 academies across the world. His research group is made up entirely of international students.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The implications of this bill, unamended, are that his research would cease or he would need to set up a closed area of his research laboratory where such research could be undertaken. There would be a question mark as to whether he could maintain his current students and collaborators. He would certainly not be able to access the research workforce that he's able to access today.</para></quote>
<para>That's what this bill will do—shut down that critical research. That concern was shared by Dr Nadia Court, the director of Semiconductor Sector Service Bureau, who said at the hearing:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We know that there are a large pool of workforces coming from places like India and South Korea, which are not on the foreign countries list, and other areas in south Asia. That's concerning. We have companies we've spoken to where 75 per cent of their workforce come from countries not on that foreign … list.</para></quote>
<para>As Dr John Byron said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">People move very easily. We will lose people. We will not get people that we want. And some of that will be research that is directly applicable to national security.</para></quote>
<para>The evidence we heard in the Senate inquiry paints a disturbing picture of a national research brain drain that would weaken Australia's national security if this bill proceeds. That's been swept aside by Labor and the coalition in some incredibly hurried amendments, which sat warm on the photocopier when they were rushed through the lower house, and this uncritical cheer leading for AUKUS. Bizarrely, the Department of Defence responded to all of that with some of the most unhinged evidence you could imagine.</para>
<para>While the university and research sectors are saying that, if this bill passes, there'll be tens of thousands of permits required, Defence, when I asked them, refused to provide to the committee their modelling or any details of their modelling on what the regulatory burden will be. We had the bizarre evidence from Defence that they thought that under this new regime there would only be dozens of additional permits required per year. When we tested them on that and asked them to give us details in questions on notice, we got a refusal to respond citing national security reasons. Let's be clear: if Defence is right, and this only produces dozens of permits a year, there is no way that it would satisfy the US's requirements under AUKUS—no way at all—and it could not possibly be approved by the US administration as being compliant with our pillar 2 capabilities.</para>
<para>So either Defence have no idea about the impact or they were misleading the committee or it's a mixture of the two. Of course we should not pass this bill. Of course we should not pass its little friend which is again just designed to beat up national security hysteria, the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 either. I look forward to further discussion in committee.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wanted to rise this morning to add my contribution to the Senate's consideration of the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024. The overriding purpose of this bill is, as the bill states, to strengthen Australia's national security and protect sensitive defence goods and technology by enhancing Australia's defence export control system amid unprecedented global challenges. At the same time, the bill facilitates international trade and research collaboration as part of the AUKUS agreement.</para>
<para>On 30 November last year, the Senate referred the bill to the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee for inquiry. As part of that inquiry, which I chaired, the committee received 24 submissions and heard from witnesses in a public hearing on 1 March this year. I want to thank everyone who appeared before the inquiry.</para>
<para>It is very important that this bill be passed in a timely way. That is why, as a committee, we endeavoured to complete our work ahead of the scheduled reporting date of 30 April 2024 to allow this Senate ample time to consider the recommendations in the report before it would come to the floor today. So, I am very grateful that the government has also provided its response to the recommendations that were made in the committee's final report in a manner that is equally as timely.</para>
<para>While the purpose of the proposed legislation is to boost Australia's defence export control framework and align it with that of the United States, Australia's defence export regime should also be tailored to our nation's own unique circumstances. That is sometimes overlooked in the debate. This is a very important balance that must be found. Doing so is not an easy task, as the inquiry well demonstrated. Despite some concerns that were raised by sections of business and academia on the possible effects that the bill might have, the committee found that there was in-principle support for the proposed forms and the new layer of security that it presents.</para>
<para>My view and that of the committee is that the bill will support and strengthen the objectives of the AUKUS partnership with the United States and the United Kingdom, allowing for greater opportunities for both industry and individuals engaging in regulated defence articles and services, as well as building a much more robust industrial base. Despite the benefits, the committee accepted the degree of concern and confusion that exists—and I was pleased to read in the government's response an acknowledgement of this need for clarity—and welcomed Defence's proposal to create some more information that will be available on its website and distributed to the various stakeholders that were impacted, providing necessary information on the legislative changes.</para>
<para>I was also pleased by the government's willingness to continue further consultation with sectors of the industry, particularly those in the higher education research sectors. One of the particular aspects of concern that the committee heard from several inquiry participants was the need for a much more comprehensive definition of the term 'fundamental research', as well as the view that this definition should be included in the bill itself to provide legislative certainty. This was a view shared by the committee, so it became a recommendation of the report that the bill be amended in such terms. I am pleased also to see that the government has agreed with this recommendation and is moving such amendments.</para>
<para>The committee agreed with the need for additional support for small and medium-sized enterprises and recommended that additional representation include relevant Australian defence industry SMEs. That Defence has been instructed by the minister to increase the membership of the working groups to support this expansion shows that there is a genuine willingness on behalf of government to work with our industry partners to ensure that these changes are as manageable as they can be. Indeed, I think it's fair to say that the committee is encouraged by Defence's willingness to address the issues identified in the inquiry and remains confident of the collaborative processes by which the stakeholders in business and academia will resolve the outstanding issues or confusion.</para>
<para>I am pleased that the government has agreed with the recommendations that we as a committee made. It shows how the Senate committee system should be: a considered inquiry, a considered response and better legislation. Taking into consideration the recommendations listed in the report, the committee supports the passage of this bill without delay, and I thank the government for its meaningful response to the recommendations made in the final report. I'd like to thank those who participated in the inquiry. The committee was very grateful for the valuable contributions it received and is satisfied that the proposed legislation has the in-principle support required to back its passage through this place. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>These bills seek to tighten Australian security in the context of the AUKUS defence partnership and increasing foreign intelligence threats. The Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 amends the Defence Act 1903 to regulate work that former Australian Defence Force personnel and former defence department staff may perform for or with foreign militaries and governments. The Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 amends the Defence Trade Control Act 2012 to give effect to possible technology sharing between the AUKUS partners with appropriate levels of security.</para>
<para>My remarks today focus on the first bill, which deals with military secrets. The bill creates new offences for foreign work restricted individuals—former ADF personnel and defence department staff who work for, or train, foreign militaries, government bodies or other entities—unless they have ministerial authorisation. There are exemptions for humanitarian work or for the United Nations and the International Committee of the Red Cross. The penalties for an offence are severe: a maximum penalty of 20 years imprisonment. I support the purpose of this bill. It's surprising that such a measure wasn't put on the books years ago. But, as usual in here, better late than never.</para>
<para>This legislation was initiated following reports in October 2022 that the Chinese government had approached former ADF pilots to train or advise Chinese military pilots. This is a regulatory change, not prohibition. The bill creates a framework through which work with foreign militaries can be approved. You would expect that work with Australia's allies will be readily approved; however, a foreign work authorisation may be refused if the minister reasonably believes that the work or training would prejudice the security, defence or international relations of Australia.</para>
<para>The legislation is quite random in its scope. It's focus on former ADF and defence department personnel is too narrow and the product of a piecemeal approach to national security. For example, a former officer of the Australian Government Security Vetting Agency, part of the defence department, would need ministerial authorisation to provide training to South Korea's National Police Agency but a former Australian Federal Police officer or a former Australian Security Intelligence Organisation employee would not need ministerial authorisation to provide training to China's Ministry of Public Security. Just for once, it would be nice to get a bill in here that's done properly; something that is consistent for our national security.</para>
<para>This weakness was also recognised by ASIO, which, in its submission to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, emphasised:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the employees of a much wider range of government agencies and departments have access to secrets and expertise that are of great interest to our adversaries.</para></quote>
<para>ASIO had recommended the new regulatory regime cover all of our national intelligence agencies, not just the Defence portfolio. Why do we bother doing these committees? We obviously do not listen to them—still!</para>
<para>The PJCIS recognised this concern but failed to press the issue, so the scope of the bill remains unchanged. The PJCIS failed to get the job done. Imagine that! You guys talk big on national security in here. You've got to be kidding me! I have to be honest with you: if it's not dealt with now, it probably won't be dealt with in this parliament because you lack the courage to deal with it.</para>
<para>There's another group that needs to be brought into the picture. Last month, the ASIO Director-General threw a cat among the pigeons when he revealed that a former MP or senator had been recruited by a foreign intelligence service and they had worked for those spies while they were a member of this parliament. We had a traitor amongst us—a traitor in this house—but they won't tell us who. Senators should be asking themselves whether we should be exempt from laws and rules that apply to others in the interests of national security. Apparently, it's only a national security interest when it's on other people, but never on the integrity of this parliament. Never! And, of course, both the major parties would agree with this, wouldn't they? 'Oh, nothing to see here. We don't want to talk about that.'</para>
<para>If we're going to impose an additional regulatory burden on men and women who have served in our Australian Defence Force, which is exactly what you're doing, who have sworn to defend our country, and many have put their lives on the line, then members of this parliament should at least be prepared to impose the same obligations on those of us who have been given access to our nation's highest secrets. You forgot a whole group of people over here, and you want us to take you seriously when it comes to national security? You are kidding me, right? You must be kidding us all!</para>
<para>At the very least the definition of 'foreign work restricted individuals' should be extended to include all former members of the National Security Committee of cabinet and all MPs and senators who have served on the PJCIS—and that should be the minimum. It's worth noting that not one of those former or current ministers, MPs and senators got a security check. That's right, Australians; no security checks done up here because you're supposed to trust us! Yes, I'll bet you're laughing. So am I. And it's only Monday!</para>
<para>Former senator Rex Patrick proposed to remedy that security gap with his Ministers of State (Checks for Security Purposes) Bill 2019, but—guess what—both of the major parties weren't keen on their own people getting security passes up here. Geez! I think, given ASIO's recent revelations, we should revisit Rex Patrick's bill. That's what you should do. If you had the courage, that's exactly what you'd be doing. You would be putting these constraints on yourselves because you would be leading by example. This is why you're losing elections. You're still not listening to the Australian people. You just keep going because we've got 15 or 16 months until the next election. You just keep going down the path you are on—not putting these obligations on yourselves in both these chambers. This is what people have had enough of.</para>
<para>No former National Security Committee minister should be allowed to work for a foreign government without authorisation from the current prime minister. We should be setting the highest security standards at the very top of government, not leaving doors open on the basis of trust. I don't know how you trust each other in here, because Australians don't trust us. If that doesn't give you an indication, I don't know what will. We're making an absolute mockery of all the measures we impose further down, whether in relation to security vetting, restrictions on overseas training or implementation of defence trade controls.</para>
<para>This legislation will impose new restrictions on former ADF and defence department personnel. This may well be necessary, and I do not argue with that in principle, but the bill also reflects a piecemeal, hypocritical and deficient approach to national security. The government needs to do much better than they're doing right now. I tell you: when it comes to national security, once again, you're as weak as water. If you want people to be involved, put yourselves under the same restrictions. Lead by example in here. You've got people up this end of the chamber trying to get Australians to trust us, and you guys are knocking us all down. That's what the major parties are doing to us in this country, and it's so unfair. Start leading in here!</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KOVACIC</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024. These bills are a significant and important step in ensuring that Australia and the ADF are ready for the next step of the AUKUS security partnership between Australia, the US and the UK.</para>
<para>AUKUS is arguably the most significant step taken in the defence of Australia in the postwar era. It was the coalition government that founded AUKUS in 2021 with our two most important security partners. AUKUS will provide the foundation for Australia's underwater military capability well into the 21st century as well as support a multitude of other facets of our military capability.</para>
<para>As announced last year, AUKUS will see the deployment of US Navy and Royal Navy nuclear powered attack submarines to HMAS <inline font-style="italic">Stirling</inline> in Western Australia. Early next decade, the Royal Australian Navy will acquire Virginia class attack submarines from the US, representing, as noted, the most significant advancement in Australia's military capability in the postwar era. In the 2040s, Australia will build and acquire AUKUS SSN in conjunction with the UK. Built in Adelaide, these will be the first Australian-built nuclear powered submarines in history.</para>
<para>Developed under a coalition government and continuing today under a Labor government, AUKUS represents the work of this chamber, and the other place, at its very best: bipartisan governance in Australia's best interests. This monumental leap in our defence capability has its detractors, but it is essential that this capability is achieved, not only for the defence of our country but also for the defence of the liberal democratic free world and the rules based international order. There are those who take a different approach: that Australia should throw away its principles in favour of serving authoritarian regimes. I do not subscribe to that philosophy. Australia must stand and continue to stand with our liberal democratic friends around the world, especially those under occupation or threat of occupation. Australia, alongside other liberal democracies, has a responsibility to protect those who cannot protect themselves. The rules based international order has delivered remarkable levels of relative peace throughout the world, particularly in states that share its ideals.</para>
<para>In October of last year, I had the opportunity and the privilege to spend a few days at RAAF Base Amberley in Queensland. Two things became very clear to me very quickly. The first was the extraordinary commitment, service and sacrifices of our defence personnel in keeping us safe. What they do to keep us safe puts them at risk, and we must never forget that. The second was that we need greater investment in our defence personnel and in our defence systems. We cannot protect our nations and our freedoms without that investment. The situations playing out globally, including in Ukraine, are a clear signal of the risks that we could face here in the Indo-Pacific. We face legitimate and serious geopolitical risks, and we must be prepared for the fact that the peace we have enjoyed for decades has only been the product of a strong liberal democratic order and that it cannot be taken for granted. AUKUS will only enhance our position in this respect. AUKUS will enable us to have one of the most credible defences available to conventional forces.</para>
<para>As the founders of AUKUS, the coalition will support the implementation of AUKUS by supporting the bills on a bipartisan basis. The SAMS bill has been considered and is supported by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, and an advisory report has been produced, including recommendations. The DTCA Bill has been considered, albeit on an expedited basis, by the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee. On the basis of key concessions and additional recommendations secured by the coalition, the coalition is supportive of the final report and recommendations, which were tabled last week. Support for expedited passage of DTCA and SAMS has also been provided based on a statutory review time frame of three years from commencement to evaluate the functioning of the updated defence export legislation framework and a commitment from the Deputy Prime Minister to establish a new statutory parliamentary joint committee on defence, JCD, as soon as possible. The coalition has indicated its expectation that this be completed by the winter break, and the DPM's office has, on several occasions, stated that the draft JCD legislation will be available within weeks.</para>
<para>The opposition can be satisfied both with the level of consultation with the defence industry and other stakeholders on the bills to date and with government commitments to regulatory co-design and consultation going forward, including through the establishment of the new JCD and the legislative review period. The opposition is informed that the government will propose a range of amendments to the DTCA Bill to address academic and defence industry concerns raised during the Senate committee inquiry and otherwise in the course of the consultation on the provisions. Representatives from academic and defence industry working groups are aware of the expedited time frames for passing the bills and recognise the importance of the parliament not letting Australia fall behind in implementing AUKUS.</para>
<para>Importantly, the government's commitment to establishing the new JCD provides industry and academic stakeholders with confidence that there will be a new specialised forum for consulting with parliament, government and Defence. JCD will be governed like the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, composed of the two major parties of government and bound by the secrecy and other provisions that facilitate improved scrutiny and oversight of Defence and the government, including over implementation of the bills going forward. The new joint statutory committee on defence will bring rigorous parliamentary oversight to Australia's defence agencies and the Australian Defence Force and facilitate confidential discussions and briefings. The government's commitment to granting the opposition's conditions of establishing the JCD and accommodating the opposition's recommendations for DTCA regulatory co-design and consultation should mitigate any concerns amongst stakeholders about the expedited passage of the bills.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024, as part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation by the Albanese government, is intended to align Australia's scientific community, national security controls and military with the United States of America. This is a precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines under AUKUS Pillar I and to have greater access to US military technology under AUKUS Pillar II. In short, the bill is intended to make it easier to exchange scientific ideas and technology with the US and the United Kingdom while putting in place fresh barriers for these exchanges with everyone else on this planet. As the House of Commons research library says and is quoted in Senator Shoebridge's dissenting report to this legislation:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A key part of the AUKUS agreement is the pledge contained in the initial leaders' statement to deepen defence ties and enhance joint capabilities and interoperability between all three countries. This includes developing a range of advanced military capabilities that are collectively known as AUKUS pillar 2 activities …</para></quote>
<para>Now, late last year, US Congress passed legislation that exempts Australia and Britain from some of the stringent export control requirements under the US International Traffic in Arms Regulations—what's known as ITAR—scheme but only on the condition that both countries implement similarly stringent export control laws domestically. This bill is intended as Australia's response to this demand from Washington. The bill should be rejected in full. It's been rushed through despite significant concerns from businesses and academia. Senator Shoebridge earlier showed me the nine pages of substantive amendments—not second readers—for the committee stage just from the government. I'm not sure I've seen nine pages of amendments for a piece of a government's own legislation before. It certainly suggests that this has been rushed. It fails to address the existing very real issues with the Australian defence export regime and will have devastating impacts on the Australian research and technology sector if passed without radical changes.</para>
<para>To be clear, the Australian Greens join with thousands of academics and many in the nation's advanced manufacturing and research sector not to support the recommendation in the interim report that the Defence Capability Assurance and Oversight Bill 2024 be passed. In a moment of general political irony, this bill, which is touted as part of Australia's national security response to a less certain world, will, in fact, make Australia less safe and will stunt academic and economic growth.</para>
<para>Here are a couple of additional key points. Very simply, this is part of AUKUS related legislation to ensure Australia's military export system is aligned with the United States. It will cut Australia off from the rest of the world and tie us to the United States of America. I want to come back to that point shortly given some of the storm clouds brewing in the United States at the moment. This is a precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines—in itself a very controversial issue here in Australia. This bill will effectively create an export-free licence bubble between the US and the UK. However, it also means Australia will be effectively cut off from the rest of the world, with harsher and expanded restrictions on working with people outside what we call the Anglo bubble. If this bill passes in its current state, researchers and businesses working with people from countries like South Korea or India on technology or research that is dual use would have to stop, get approval from the minister or risk 10 years imprisonment. Industry and the higher education sector have raised real concerns, as I mentioned, and this bill will lead them to apply for thousands new permits to do basic new research and product development. This bill has drawn widespread criticism, as the bill risks creating a significant disincentive for most of the world to work with Australian researchers and trade critical technology.</para>
<para>The Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024, specifically, seeks to introduce harsher punishments and more ministerial powers to punish ADF personnel who train or work with certain foreign militaries and government entities. It is already illegal for defence personnel to disclose military secrets; however, this will require defence personnel and public servants to obtain authorisation before working for another government entity. I note that Five Eyes nations are not included in that.</para>
<para>It's all part of a push to integrate regulation with the United States as part of the AUKUS and concerns over Australia not being able to keep its nuclear secrets. So we are getting told what legislation to pass and when from Washington. Both bills are needed for the US to allow AUKUS to proceed, and they are designed to integrate Australian regulation with US regulation. That is plain and simple to see. But AUKUS is sinking, and, if the ALP and coalition continue down this path, we're all going to sink with it. The Albanese government is making Australia the US's 51st state, turning the country into an arm of the US military.</para>
<para>We will likely not even get Australian owned nuclear submarines, but Australia will spend $365 billion, destabilise the region, become a parking lot and dumping ground for US and UK nuclear submarines, and paint a big target on ourselves. I note I bumped into the ex-member for Fremantle this morning in the coffee shop, Melissa Parke, who's here in parliament today and has an event on tonight to talk about antinuclear prohibition. I know there are a lot of people in this building that are still very concerned that we're not doing enough to phase out the nuclear weapons, and here we are buying nuclear submarines.</para>
<para>The Albanese Labor government has already promised to give nearly $10 billion to the US and UK militaries as part of AUKUS. We are literally funnelling Australian public funds into foreign military industries. The $4.7 billion going to US submarine manufacturing is not just for conventionally armed submarines but also to train and equip the workforce to make nuclear armed submarines. Eighty per cent of Australians don't want our primary ally to be the United States of America; AUKUS ensures this will happen. It locks us into this. AUKUS stops us from engaging with the world independently. The US and UK see Australia as a sucker who will give their militaries money and allow them to keep their nuclear submarines here—half parking lot, half nuclear dump—under the guise of AUKUS.</para>
<para>I'm sure I'm not the only member of parliament who woke up on 7 January a few years ago to see people being shot inside a senate chamber in the United States with a full-scale insurrection following the democratic result that elected President Joe Biden to the presidency. We've seen a growing storm cloud over US politics as Donald Trump is running again for the presidency. We've seen comments in recent weeks that he's made about throwing out the Australian Ambassador to the United States—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As if it were his choice.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>as if it were his choice. Are we really hitching our wagon to this country? We need to have this honest discussion. We can talk about strategic issues in our region, and we can talk about threats to Australia's sovereignty and to our nation, but why aren't we being more independent of the United States? I do not think this is a good time for us to be going further down this rabbit hole of selling out our independence to the US at a time when I have grave concerns over the state of their democracy and their institutions in the years to come.</para>
<para>There are a lot of good people in the US Senate and the US Congress, and he gave me a lot of hope, to go over there last year and meet with some of these people and see the progressive caucus. I'm exasperated as to why we don't see more of them in our media—why we see these two old white men in US politics all the time—when there are so many good people coming through the US system. So I did want to say I do have some hope for the democracy in the United States. There are a lot of good people there.</para>
<para>But I'm particularly concerned—I wanted to finish on this note today—and I know my colleagues are also particularly concerned, as are many people in this Senate chamber and in the other place, about the treatment of Walkley Award winning journalist Julian Assange by the US Department of Justice, an extraterritorial overreach that I believe is one of the biggest abuses of power of our time. This is our friend and ally, trying to extradite for the first time ever on espionage charges, political charges, an Australian journalist for doing their job in a foreign jurisdiction. This has never happened before—never. They couldn't do it to a US journalist, because it would be a breach of the first amendment, but they are going to try and extradite an Australian journalist to spend 175 years in jail for disclosing their secrets, their war crimes, their corruption, for WikiLeaks.</para>
<para>While our delegation—and Senator Shoebridge was with me in that delegation—had very constructive meetings with the Department of Justice and others, what kind of friend would do that to an Australian citizen, especially an Australian that is a hero to many people in this country, probably the only person who exposed what happened in the Iraq War? No-one else has been brought to justice for that illegal and immoral war and that conflict that dragged our country and other nations into the so-called 'coalition of the willing'. We saw instability across the region for decades and, based on different estimates, millions of civilian casualties. We see horrific images coming out of Gaza now, but we didn't see many images out of the Iraq War around these hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of innocent civilian casualties. WikiLeaks and Julian Assange were the truth-tellers of that war, thanks to whistleblowers like Chelsea Manning and others who blew the whistle and provided those documents, which were published by WikiLeaks and, may I say, by all the major media institutions around the world. Some of them are also winning awards for their coverage of some of these key leaks, like the rules of engagement leaks and others.</para>
<para>Julian Assange is in a maximum-security prison in the UK waiting to be extradited. He still hasn't been charged with anything by the UK, and the US is seeking to extradite him as a political prisoner. We know surveys in Australia show that more than 80 per cent of Australians find that completely unacceptable. Our House passed a motion just two weeks ago, which the Prime Minister spoke on, calling for his extradition to end. I know our ambassador over there, Kevin Rudd, is working to see his extradition come to an end, as are Julian's family, his legal team and many, many good people. Yet the US continues to push ahead with this. I'd recommend to all Australians who want to know more about this issue to go and see the movie <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">he T</inline><inline font-style="italic">rust Fall</inline>, which is showing at Village Cinemas around the country. I guarantee you that you will not walk out of that cinema unchanged and not feel this injustice and this anger towards our key ally, the United States.</para>
<para>So, while we're hitching our wagon to AUKUS and spending hundreds of billions of dollars that we could be spending on so much more in this country where it's needed, just remember what they're doing to Julian Assange. Are they the kind of friend and ally we want to be tying 100 per cent of our defence future to? I know I'm not the only one who has grave concerns about this. I thank Senator Shoebridge for the work that he has done on this bill.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 and the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024. The Greens oppose these bills in their entirety and for good reason: these bills are part of a suite of AUKUS related bills. In pursuing AUKUS, the government has ended even the pretence of an independent foreign policy. The AUKUS agreement is driven by imperialism and represents the racist and colonial ideas of the Anglosphere, different from the rest of the world. Military expansionism and warmongering should not be our future when the world desperately needs peace, yet AUKUS locks us into ugly partnerships with the war-hungry United States and the UK. Australia should not be supporting the United States to make and trade even more killing machines, nor to escalate a global arms race. Australia should be pursuing an independent foreign policy and fulfilling our responsibility to promote disarmament, justice and decolonisation around the world.</para>
<para>AUKUS is anything but good for Australia. Not only is our foreign policy totally beholden to a warmongering United States, the resources that we are pouring into AUKUS could be used so much better right here. We are in a cost-of-living crisis and, instead of funding critical public services and ensuring people can afford the very basics, the Labor government is spending $368 billion to build dirty nuclear submarines. Just imagine all the things that we could do with $368 billion. We could wipe student debt and make TAFE and uni free. We could put dental into Medicare and provide free universal child care for all. We could cap rents, build hundreds of thousands of public homes and end the wait list for social housing. We could make public transport free and build the clean energy systems our planet needs. The Labor government needs to get its priorities right and, instead of pouring more than half a trillion dollars into building into dirty war machines and stage 3 tax cuts for the rich, put people first, not profits and war, and ensure a socially, economically and environmentally just society for everyone.</para>
<para>In their single-minded pursuit of the AUKUS agreement, governments of both stripes have shown their myopic vision, one that is dominated by aggression and further militarisation of our already hawkish foreign policy. The Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill is just the latest example of the government willing to do the United States' bidding and, in doing that, is putting Australia's research sector at risk.</para>
<para>As Greens spokesperson for higher education, my contribution today will focus on the damaging effects of the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill on Australia's university and research sector. The Greens proudly support an independent, fully-funded research sector where researchers have the freedom to collaborate with international research partners and feel valued and respected for their excellent contributions to the public good yet, alarmingly, this bill risks freezing a wide range of international research collaboration outside of the AUKUS bubble, cutting Australian research off from the rest of the world and exposing researchers to penalties of up to 10 years in prison.</para>
<para>Australia's excellent research sector does have an outsized impact. We have 0.3 per cent of the world's population yet we produce four per cent of global science. Across disciplines, it's clear that our research success depends on international collaboration. Indeed, international research collaboration is an explicit object of the Australian Research Council, the major funder of research in this country, and is supported by a range of bilateral agreements such as with the European Union.</para>
<para>The Academy of Science, during the inquiry on this bill, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We need to collaborate to get access to knowledge that we need to solve unique Australian problems. Most of the knowledge is generated elsewhere. The only way we get to use it, to see it and to do it is to participate in it and to help make the decisions that take us in the direction we want to go.</para></quote>
<para>Yet this bill threatens to restrict this international collaboration and undermine our research sector.</para>
<para>The bill makes it an offence, unless a permit is obtained, for researchers to collaborate with non-AUKUS researchers, even those in their own institutions in Australia, on the development of dual-use technology. The list of dual-use technologies is extensive, including materials and infrastructure that almost all scientific and engineering researchers use, such as supercomputers, semiconductors and sonar scanners. Harsh penalties of up to 10 years imprisonment apply for failure to obtain or comply with a permit. Researchers have rightly raised serious concerns that the bill will have a chilling effect on international research collaboration and the employment of visiting researchers. A large proportion of Australia's research workforce is from overseas, and some research teams would need permits to carry on the entirety of their research, without which their continued collaboration could see them jailed. This really does ring alarm bells and has, rightly, drawn widespread criticism.</para>
<para>The chilling effect on Australian research of this bill is a very real likelihood. The Australian Academy of Technology Sciences and Engineering has warned that, where researchers and institutions are concerned about criminal sanctions, they are likely to stay clear of a research project rather than take the risk, which could leave Australia out of crucial international research efforts. And, as stated by the University of Melbourne in the inquiry into this bill, the bill would, perversely, make it harder for any individual to collaborate with an Australian research organisation if the individual is in Australia than if they are in the US or UK. In the research sector, where global mobility is essential, such a disadvantage could discourage global talent from working in Australia and create a push factor for them to leave. So the bill risks Australia losing many skilled researchers, which will undermine Australia's research capability across a large range of areas, including in national security, as some observed in the inquiry into the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill. In a disturbing irony, despite this bill purporting to improve our national interest, instead it risks a brain drain on our diverse and international academic sector and an undermining of research capability.</para>
<para>The bill makes an exemption to the permit system for research collaboration on dual-use technology with the United States and the United Kingdom. While this may make collaboration with these Western countries easier, the bill risks cutting off many of the critical research connections that Australia shares with other parts of the world. Universities and researchers have called for an expansion of the countries for which Australian researchers don't require permits to include many of our current and long-term research collaborators across Europe, South-East Asia, Oceania and the Americas. In the area of semiconductor development, for example, evidence was given in the inquiry into this bill that some Australian teams have 75 per cent of their workforce coming from non-AUKUS countries, including India and South Korea, where research would be disrupted. The National Tertiary Education Union has raised concerns that the AUKUS exception to research permits could lead to preferential treatment of UK and US researchers and increase discrimination against researchers from other parts of the world. So it is concerning that this bill imposes additional burdens on researchers and research students from other countries. Most will be people of colour who will be subject to greater scrutiny, suspicion and the burden of another onerous application process—as if they don't have enough to deal with already.</para>
<para>Researchers, universities and industry bodies have raised concerns about the significant regulatory burdens imposed by the bill. They have raised concerns about the lack of clarity around the permit application process, including how long it will take for a permit to be issued. As reported in the leading science journal <inline font-style="italic">Nature</inline>, there have already been delays under the current permit system. Vanessa Teague, a cryptographer at ANU, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">On multiple occasions, although we had applied for permit renewal well in advance, the reissue was delayed so long as to leave a few weeks' gap, during which we were not permitted to continue normal research communication with overseas colleagues.</para></quote>
<para>The article also states that on another occasion, a permit was granted but restricted her to communicating with only some of her colleagues in certain countries. Despite these significant risks, the sheer lack of consultation on this bill is deeply concerning and alarming but, I have to say, not surprising given the government's insistence on pushing ahead with AUKUS. An exposure draft of the bill had written consultation open for effectively only five working days back in November 2023. As was revealed in my estimates questioning last month, key research stakeholders such as the Australian Research Council, a major funder of research, did not make detailed submissions on the bill.</para>
<para>Meanwhile, there has been a separate independent review of the Defence Trade Controls Act announced in August 2023, with submissions closing in October 2023. But the progress and outcome of that review is unknown, and the bill's explanatory memorandum makes no mention of the review's findings being incorporated into this bill. This lack of transparency is completely and utterly unacceptable, and it smacks of lip service to consultation. While the committee said they were reassured by the department's evidence in the inquiry that peak bodies and companies were engaged with prior to the legislation being introduced into parliament, it is very concerning that researchers and universities were not mentioned and consulted more deeply.</para>
<para>The major parties have nevertheless teamed up to rush through this flawed legislation. At the very least the bill needs clear transitional arrangements for researchers and research students whose work could be affected. Those whose livelihoods and careers are already built around research on technologies that may now require permits under this bill ought to be considered and supported. As my colleagues in this chamber know, the Greens proudly support a university sector that acts for the public good, not for warmongering and not for political interests. I've been saying this for years, and, as a former academic, an independent research sector acting in the public interest is a deeply important and personal issue for me.</para>
<para>Last year the Labor government funded 4,000 Commonwealth supported places to enable skill-building for nuclear powered submarines under the AUKUS agreement. The National Union of Students at that time saw the folly of this AUKUS submarines program and called on the tertiary education sector to boycott the provision of training and technology for AUKUS submarines. We all understand that extra uni places for STEM disciplines are necessary, but creating these places to support AUKUS and warmongering is just gross. Unis should be contributing to peace, not war, and should play no part in weapons manufacturing. Just last week Labor finally agreed to pass legislation that substantially gave effect to my bill from five years ago to remove the ministerial veto power on Australian Research Council funding. Yet, worryingly, unlike my bill, the legislation retains a ministerial veto for reasons of security, defence and international relations. While Labor has ignored concerns from researchers and Australia's leading academies, and rejected my amendment to narrow this power, I did at least secure an independent review of the ARC board. This will hopefully provide some oversight to ensure ministerial powers are not exploited under the guise of security, defence and international relations. We need an independent research sector striving to act in the public good, not one that is helping to build dirty war machines at the whim of political interests.</para>
<para>The Greens will keep fighting for this. The Greens oppose this bill, which undermines international collaboration that is so essential for our research sector. This bill is just the latest example in a long list of both the Labor and Liberal parties blindly doing the bidding of the United States. Australia should be pursuing an independent foreign policy and fulfilling its role to create a world of disarmament, decolonisation and justice.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise, along with my colleagues, to contribute to the debate on these two bills: the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 and the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024. I'd like to commend my colleagues for the excellent contributions that they've made so far, including Senator Faruqi, who just detailed the truly scary impacts on our research sector that this bill might have, this bill from a Labor government who is meant to be championing the interests of researchers and who is meant to be on the side of our tertiary sector. I'm going to go into more detail later, but I echo and endorse the remarks that Senator Faruqi made about the shivers that this should be sending down the spine of our research sector.</para>
<para>It's not just an attack on our research sector; it's an attack on any semblance or chance of this nation having an independent foreign policy, one that shamelessly puts Australia's interests first. Perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that we see this absolute capitulation by this Labor government to the demands of Washington, but I remain incredibly disappointed that that is the case.</para>
<para>These two bills are a part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation, and the object of those bills is to align very closely Australia's military export system with the US. The effect of that would be to restrict Australia and cut us off from the rest of the world, which my colleagues have also gone through, and to tie us to the US. This is on the eve of Trump becoming president again. Really? You want to pick this time in history to more closely align us with the US? Honestly, any ordinary person would have their jaw on the floor that this is a proposition from our current government. The reason for these two bills is that they're a precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines, another questionable decision, which, frankly, I don't think the vast majority of community members are on board with either.</para>
<para>These two bills would effectively create an export licence-free bubble between the US and the UK pertaining to military and dual-use goods. But the effect of that is that Australia will be effectively cut off from the rest of the world with harsher and expanded restrictions on working with people outside that US and UK Anglo bubble. We talk a lot about structural racism—I might clarify; the Greens talk a lot about structural racism—and here we go again, aligning ourselves with these Anglo-bubble countries with the effect that we will seriously disbenefit research work being conducted in other non-Anglo nations. If this bill were to pass in its current state, researchers and businesses working with folk in countries like South Korea or India on the technology of research that is dual-use would have to stop. They'd have to get approval from the minister or risk ten years imprisonment. Seriously, the proportionality of this is just outlandish.</para>
<para>The industry and higher ed sector have rightly raised some serious concerns that this new bill would need them to apply for thousands of new permits to do basic research and product development. This has, of course, drawn widespread criticism because the bill risks creating a significant disincentive for most of the world to work with Australian researchers and to trade critical technology. We have been, at times in our history, on the forefront of cutting-edge research. We then had a period of Liberal government where funding for research was slashed and only industry driven research was considered permissible or legitimate. But we risk, with this bill, further isolating ourselves from that pool of knowledge. I think that's a very disappointing, very sad and, frankly, really dangerous course of action, in particular given the state of global politics at the very minute.</para>
<para>The second bill that we're debating, in a conjoined fashion today, the safeguarding Australia's military secrets bill, seeks to introduce harsher punishments and more ministerial powers to punish ADF personnel who train or work with certain foreign militaries and government entities. It's already illegal for defence personnel to disclose military secrets. But this bill would require defence personnel and public servants to obtain authorisation before they work with another government entity, not including Five Eyes nations. This is all part of a push to integrate Australian regulation with that of the US as part of AUKUS because there are concerns about Australia not being able to keep nuclear secrets. Well, how very ironic that we're currently in a faux debate where the opposition is once again trying to champion nuclear as some alleged energy security proposition when we are at quite an imperilled status of global relations.</para>
<para>I think my main objection to these bills is that we keep getting told what to do by the US, by Washington, we keep getting our instructions, and this government says: 'Oh, you want us to jump? Well, how high would you like us to Trump—to jump?' No pun intended there. I just misspoke and said, 'How high would you like us to Trump?' That's quite apposite really, considering what we're staring down the barrel of.</para>
<para>Both of these bills will be needed for AUKUS to proceed, and they are designed to more closely align us with the US. But AUKUS is sinking, and if the Labor government and the coalition continue down this path, we're all going to sink with it. The Albanese government is effectively turning Australia into a US state, and it's turning us into an arm of the US military.</para>
<para>Now, my colleague, Senator Whish-Wilson, spoke about the litany of ills that the US military has perpetrated on whistleblowers, in particular on Julian Assange, and I'd like to associate myself with his remarks. This is a very dangerous course of action that this government is proposing to take our country down the path of. And it's kind of ironic because we're likely not even going to get Australian owned nuclear submarines, but we're going to be spending $365 billion of public money to destabilise our region, to become at once a parking lot and a dumping ground for US and UK nuclear subs. This will make us less safe in the process; it will paint an even bigger target on us.</para>
<para>The Albanese Labor government has already promised to give nearly $10 billion to the US and the UK militaries as part of AUKUS. We are literally funnelling Australian public money, taxpayer dollars, into a foreign military industry. And the $4.7 billion that's going to the US submarine manufacturing industry is not just for conventionally armed submarines, it's also to train and equip the workforce to make nuclear armed submarines. Is it any wonder that 80 per cent of Australians don't want our primary ally to be the US, and yet AUKUS ensures that that is what would happen. AUKUS stops us from engaging with the world independently.</para>
<para>The US and the UK see Australia as a sucker who will give their militaries money, and who will allow them to keep their nuclear submarines here under the guise of AUKUS. We could do so much better. The sheer volume of public money that's being spent on this just baffles me. The $3.68 billion on nuclear submarines will make us less safe, will stir tensions in our region and is not in our interests. Every time I hear the volume of this, I'm floored. We quibble about funding housing. We quibble about funding frontline domestic and family violence services. We're always urging the government to fund things that will actually help people, and we're often told that we're too broke to do that—'the country's too broke to do that'. Well, $368 billion—you don't bat an eyelid when it comes to giving away that amount of money, and it is absolutely shameful. It is effectively a raid, a $368 billion raid on money that could go on public education, on health, on housing, on climate action, on First Nations justice, on income support for ordinary Australians who are in a cost-of-living crisis. It is obscene that this government is dedicating $368 billion to nuclear submarines to hitch us closer to the US right on the eve of another Trump presidency, when Australians are genuinely struggling and deserve so much better from their government. They voted for a change and they're not getting the change, and so they're scratching their heads. Is it any wonder that the vote for smaller parties and Independents is on the rise, because they're sick of the Coles and Woolies of politics agreeing on everything. You just put the words 'national security' on it and the capitulation to each other is complete. You might as well just merge and be done with the pretence.</para>
<para>When people are living in tents and when rent rises and mortgage increases are pushing people closer and closer to homelessness, families closer and closer to homelessness, it is just obscene that you are giving $368 billion of money to nuclear powered submarines. People can't find a bulk-billing GP, and yet we're going to be spending money on nuclear submarines. They can't afford mental health or dental health care, and yet this government is choosing to spend $368 billion on submarines. Young people are deciding not to do further study and go to university because they can't afford to, and yet this government is spending $368 billion on nuclear submarines.</para>
<para>As a more recent example, just last week the government said, 'Yes, we're going to pay superannuation on paid parental leave,' which I take an interest in as the Greens spokesperson for women. 'Yes, okay, we'll give you superannuation on paid parental leave as the last remaining workplace entitlement that doesn't already have super paid on it, but you're going to have to wait because we can't find the measly few hundred million dollars to spend on mostly women—on new parents. We can't find that money to pay super on paid parental leave. You're going to have to wait until the year after because we're too poor to do the right thing.' Maybe it's because you're giving $368 billion of money to nuclear powered submarines and hitching our wagon even more closely to the US.</para>
<para>It is such an affront to decency, and it is an insult to anyone who voted for this government in the hope of change and in the hope of a different policy approach. Where is your courage? Where is your conviction? Where are you listening to the community's pleas and protestations that they're really in strife? We are in a genuine cost-of-living crisis, and they don't want these pitiful changes around the margins. They want some serious systemic reform that addresses the wealth inequality and the underfunding of universal services that have plagued us for decades now. Those are the issue that they want their government to be working on, not buddying up to a future Trump-led US and wasting $368 billion on nuclear submarines. It beggars belief that we are here having to point this out, and yet the bipartisan approach to anything that's just got the words 'national security' in it—you just wave a little sign over it that says 'national security', and then no-one is prepared to touch it. Well, we're calling it out, and we think that there are any number of better ways to spend $368 billion.</para>
<para>You could fully fund frontline family and domestic violence services. The women's safety sector have been begging for double the amount of funding that they have been receiving under this government to help everyone who seeks them. They're not-for-profit services; they're not pocketing that profit. They're simply wanting to help people who reach out for their help. There are not enough beds. There's not enough legal support. There's not enough crisis support. There's not enough counselling, because this government is underfunding women. It's underfunding frontline family and domestic violence services, and yet it can find all of this dough for nuclear submarines. Likewise, maternity and termination services—women are struggling to get basic health care, and yet this government is too broke to fix hospitals. It's too broke to fund women's health because it's wasting $368 billion on nuclear submarines.</para>
<para>This government is too broke to build a serious amount of public housing and to freeze rents in the way that it should to seriously address the housing crisis that is at stratospheric levels and is now touching all corners of the community. You're too broke to do that because you're wasting $368 billion on nuclear submarines. Abolishing student debt—a seriously important cost-of-living measure that would also have the benefit of encouraging more students to undertake tertiary study—no, we can't afford to do that. We're too poor. But we've got your $368 billion for nuclear submarines.</para>
<para>I see there's some talk about maybe making child care $10 a day. The Greens' proposal has been for early childhood education to be provided free, in a not-for-profit manner, subsidised by the government. It is a public good that both helps children and helps parents get back into the workforce. It is a good investment, and yet this government is too broke to do that. It doesn't want to do that, because it's spending $368 billion on nuclear submarines. University and TAFE could be free like they used to be. Some of the folk in this chamber got it for free, and now we are putting it as a hurdle in the way of students because this government says that it's too broke to make uni and TAFE free because it's wasting it on nuclear submarines. What a disappointment this government is turning out to be. For shame!</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024—another Greens senator standing up in this place, because this is an incredibly important bit of legislation. It is sending Australia in totally the wrong direction. It is hitching our wagon to an unstable US. It is consolidating that relationship with that unstable US—colonialist, imperialist US—and we are spending an absolute fortune on it. We are spending $368 billion, a mind-boggling amount of money, to head us in the wrong direction.</para>
<para>Trying to get your head around how much $368 billion is actually quite difficult. My colleague Senator Waters outlined some of the programs, projects and actions that we could be spending that money on that would actually improve the lives of all Australians, to give you some idea of the significance of $368 billion. Another way of looking at it is you could spend $368 billion by giving $1 million to every resident of Hobart, for example. You could have everybody in Hobart being a millionaire. I'm not saying that that would be a sensible way to spend $368 billion, but it gives you an indication of how much money is being spent on these AUKUS submarines.</para>
<para>The bills that we are debating today are part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation. We have the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024, which is ensuring our military export system is aligned with the US—which rings alarm bells for me, to begin with. A precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines was that we have to make sure that we are totally aligned with the US. When you look at US and the potential of a Trump presidency, the idea of being totally aligned with US military absolutely send shivers down my spine. I thought we were an independent nation. I thought that we should have an independent foreign policy. If you look at the regional conflicts and the potential for global conflicts and the war at the moment, I think the way for Australia to be safest and the way for us to play our role in trying to support peace, to support nonviolent resolution of conflict, to support diplomacy and to work effectively and multilaterally with the 160 countries in the world would be to have an independent foreign policy, not to slavishly go even further with aligning our interests with US military interests.</para>
<para>This bill will effectively create an export licence free bubble between the US and the UK concerning military and dual-use goods. The dual-use goods are pretty interesting because they cover a vast array of different goods which potentially could be used for military purposes. So it's not just our defence industries; it's other industries that will have restrictions on where we can be procuring from and where we can be exporting goods to. It would mean that Australia is effectively cut off from the rest of the world, with harsher and expanded restrictions on working with people outside the Anglo bubble.</para>
<para>I've got a newsflash for people: this country of Australia in fact never was people just of Anglo descent. We're a First Nations country. The First Nations people of this land have been here for 60,000 years. In the last 200 years, migration from all corners of the world has meant that over a third of Australians now were born overseas, and I think two-thirds have a parent that was born overseas. We are a multiracial, multicultural country. We are not just all aligned with the US and the UK. Many Australians have strong connections with countries, institutions, universities and communities outside that Anglo bubble. To have those harsh restrictions on working with people outside the Anglo bubble imposed on us because of this legislation will have really profound consequences.</para>
<para>Industry and the higher education sector have raised real and pressing concerns that this bill will lead them to have to apply for thousands of new permits just to do basic research and product development. One of the refrains we hear in this place is that we need to be getting rid of red tape. We need to be streamlining the ability of organisations to do effective work. But adding an incredibly intense permit process into what should be straightforward research is just going to hamper and hamstring a lot of research. My colleague Senator Faruqi went through the implications for research, and I want to associate myself with her remarks. The bill has, therefore, drawn widespread criticism, as it risks creating a significant disincentive for most of the world to work with Australian researchers and trade critical technology.</para>
<para>Another news flash is that, in the globalised world that we're in at the moment, researchers and people move. They move from one country to another. This means that if Australia does not create a supportive environment for that research to occur in, they just won't come here. That will be to the detriment of Australian society. That will be to the detriment of our ability to be using the products of research to be at the forefront of scientific research, where we should be. We have got the skills, ability, resources and responsibility to be at the forefront of scientific research, but this bill means that some of the best researchers in the world will say, 'Why would I come to Australia?' Given the limitations on being able to do the research that they want to do, they'll decide that they want to go somewhere else.</para>
<para>We've got another bill that's being debated today: the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024. That's another insidious piece of legislation, aligning us closer to the US. It seeks to introduce harsher punishments and more ministerial powers to punish ADF personnel who train or work with certain foreign militaries and government entities. It's already illegal for defence personnel to disclose military secrets. However, this will require defence personnel and public servants to obtain authorisation before working for another government entity. Again, this is all part of a push to integrate Australian regulation with that of the US as part of the AUKUS deal and concerns that Australia won't be able to keep the US's nuclear secrets. The chilling effect of this second bit of legislation is just as concerning and should be ringing alarm bells for every Australian. Again, if we are concerned about our standing as an independent nation, not just being a lackey of the US, then we need to be making these decisions for ourselves and not just do what the US is telling us to do.</para>
<para>This is all for AUKUS, particularly the $368 billion on submarines. What are the benefits? We've got all of these problems with it and all of these costs. Why are we doing it? If somebody were able to say: 'Well, you've got this incredibly beneficial reason for investing this amount of money. You've got these drawbacks, but AUKUS is going to really deliver the goods', then maybe we would sit down and listen. But from what you can see about AUKUS, it's actually not about defending Australia. It's about projecting force in the South China Sea and tying us to the war-making ambitions of the US and the UK. It's dangerous. AUKUS is a dangerous move that's going to make us less safe, and it compromises our sovereignty. Accessing these nuclear submarines comes at the price of having to unconditionally follow the US into its next war. The Albanese government's making Australia the US's 51st state effectively, turning the country into an arm of the US military. We're likely to not even get Australian owned nuclear submarines, but we're going to spend $368 billion destabilising the region and being a dumping ground for US and UK nuclear submarines. As part of doing that, we'll be painting a big target on ourselves.</para>
<para>The Albanese Labor government has already promised to give nearly $10 billion to the US and the UK military as part of AUKUS. We are literally funnelling Australian funds into foreign military industry. The $4.7 billion going to US submarine manufacturing is not just for conventionally armed submarines but to also train and equip the workforce to make nuclear armed submarines. That's what our money is going towards: nuclear armed submarines. So not only are we spending this money on the nuclear powered submarines, we are spending money to make nuclear war, nuclear proliferation, even more likely.</para>
<para>AUKUS only leaves Australians worse off. We are giving up our ability to exercise independent foreign policy, risking destabilising the region and losing an exorbitant amount of public money on unnecessary nuclear submarines. Is it because the Australian public want this? No. Eighty per cent of Australians don't want our primary ally to be the US, but AUKUS ensures that this will happen. AUKUS stops us from engaging with the world independently. Why is our government letting the US dictate our legislative agenda? Why is our government effectively making us, when it comes to our military and defence operations, the 51st state of the US?</para>
<para>And then you get to the $368 billion and think about the opportunity cost. Politics and government are about choices, and this government is choosing to spend $368 billion on AUKUS rather than on so many other things that would actually make Australia better off. I want to focus on income support because, when it comes to income support and raising the rate of income support to above the poverty line, we've been told by this government over and over again: 'Look, we'd like to be able to do that but we just can't afford it. We look at the budget. We've got to cut our cloth to suit the circumstances. Sorry.' And so we got a measly $4 a day in the last budget, which doesn't come anywhere near lifting people out of poverty. It leaves people living in tents, living in cars with their kids. It leads them unable to afford more than a meal a day. It leaves them unable to afford their medications. It leaves them homeless. It leaves their kids unable to go on school excursions, unable to afford equipment. This is what the reality of living in poverty means, and yet this government is making a choice. We are choosing to spend an obscene amount of money on useless military equipment, on useless nuclear submarines, and we are choosing to leave people in poverty.</para>
<para>I want to share a story that I received late last year. Aeryn, who is a JobSeeker recipient, shared with me their devastating story about struggling to survive on JobSeeker. I'm sharing this because, as I said, this debate is about choices. This is about a choice that this government is making to spend $368 billion on submarines rather than to raise the rate of income support above the poverty line. If we weren't spending this money, we'd be able to help people like Aeryn. Aeryn told me:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I have been reliant on income support for nearly sixteen years. Currently I receive Jobseeker Allowance, as I have done since I finished university in October 2016. … Groceries take up half my net payment, and bills take up the rest.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am also disabled—one of the more than 40% of people on Jobseeker with a disability. I'm autistic, I have depression and social anxiety disorder, and I experience migraines. I also use either a cane or crutches for mobility. But because specialist appointments are expensive, I've been locked out of the Disability Support Pension simply because I can't afford to pay or save for them. I need to see a psychiatrist or a clinical psychologist as part of applying for the DSP, but I don't have the money for it. I've been asked if I would consider crowdfunding, but I'm uncomfortable with the idea and see it as a last resort.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For whatever reason, whether my disabilities or my lack of work experience, I have found it impossible to find a permanent job. My only jobs have all been temporary. My Bachelor's degree is gathering dust because no employer will give me a chance. If any of the employers I've applied to work for wanted me as an employee, they would have hired me seven years ago. I can only assume, therefore, that I'm unemployable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Because I'm a Jobseeker recipient, I'm required to engage with an employment service provider. Every single provider I've been a client of, all six of them, has been utterly awful to deal with. I've been abused, I've been "parked" and not given the help I need to find suitable work, and most recently I've been forced into "resilience training" that caused me to become suicidal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Prime Minister Albanese promised when he was elected that nobody would be left behind. People on income support are clearly nobody, because guess what? You are leaving us behind.</para></quote>
<para>And Aeryn's story is not unique, very sadly. There are millions of Australians who are suffering, yet this government is choosing to spend $368 billion on nuclear submarines.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024. I wish to echo and associate myself with comments of senators in my team, particularly Senator Shoebridge but also Senators Rice, Waters and Faruqi, and others who also have been on their feet talking about these bills today. These bills are in fact definitely part of the AUKUS deal. They are the legislative changes that are needed to ensure Australia's military systems are aligned with the US.</para>
<para>I want to preface this by reiterating what Senator Rice just talked about: 80 per cent of Australians do not want our primary ally to be the US, but this agreement ensures that that will be the case. We are being cemented into that place. AUKUS stops us as Australians from making decisions about who we engage with and, in fact, on what terms we engage with them. It's exactly as Senator Rice talked about. No longer an Anglo nation in the Asia-Pacific, our region, we're a multiracial, multicultural and multinational country. We're a country that should be proud of our links across our region, and not be looking to a primary ally to make all the decisions for us. We lose complete control of that through this deal, which prevents us from operating independently. This is just some of the legislation that we are seeing that is at the request of Washington. You might as well rub out the stamp on the top of the documentation, as it's coming direct out of Washington via the ambassador or whoever else their representative is over there. In this deal we are being told what to do by the US and the UK in tandem. When the UK says things to us like, 'Give $5 billion over to Rolls-Royce,' the Australian government roll over and get their bellies scratched. We roll over and hand over $5 billion, at the request of the UK government, to Rolls-Royce. That's a disgrace. The magic number here for this deal is $368 billion. Don't forget that number: $368 billion. In the middle of the housing crisis and a cost-of-living crisis—which the opposition will ask questions about during question time and the government will stand and do their dixers about the cost of living and what they're doing for every Australian—the government have $368 billion to give away for submarines. It's like kids with Tonka trucks in a sandpit. This government's priority is giving money away in sham deals like AUKUS. It's absolutely shameful.</para>
<para>AUKUS, in fact, is a shambles. We've spent billions of dollars ending deals, changing governments and entering into new deals. We've done this over and over again. It's actually the definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different outcome—but there is not. We see this same old thing being rolled out by the two major parties in this place. We are making legislative changes in this place to align our regulation with the US, effectively, as has already been said, making Australia the 51st state of the US.</para>
<para>How many submarines have we received so far? Can anyone count them? Zero. We have got none. There's even serious doubt—and I've heard this repeated constantly in all the news coverage that I've heard about this deal—that we'll ever receive any. The cold, hard facts about this is that the technology will be so old by the time they're delivered that they'll be useless. We've parted with $368 billion for old technology that you are signing us up to. You are signing the cheque to make sure that we get old stuff that's been passed along—dumped, in fact. We're like a vacant car lot down here.</para>
<para>People in my home state of Western Australia have been promised jobs. Every minister, including the defence minister and the Minister for Resources, who's the local member there—they all come out and want to cut a ribbon and talk about jobs and how great it is. 'We're going to build stuff.' It's all part of this deal, whether you're in South Australia, Western Australia or in Senator Shoebridge's home state of New South Wales. These are all the wonderful promises that this is what's going to happen, and, ultimately, it will be the taxpayers and the workers who will end up getting the raw deal out of this. They will get the absolute end of it, and they have just lost out on $368 billion if we continue down this path.</para>
<para>The Greens knew this was a bad deal from the start, and we're on record continuing to say that AUKUS is not the right move. The deal is sinking. The major parties continue this little banter between them and are so stubborn to continue this support. There's hardly sunlight between them right now. This deal will actually sink alongside all of us, because they're continuing down this pathway. It's absolutely ridiculous. In real time, we will see the destabilising of our region—the dumping ground and parking lot for UK and US nuclear submarines. We'll be painting a massive target on our backs. There's already been reports about the west coast of Australia, my home state of Western Australia, not having enough coverage. We are already a target—hello!—in the region. You go from Exmouth down to Garden Island, and there's nothing in between helping us to have any protection from what the government and the opposition are sitting together holding hands about.</para>
<para>We've already agreed—it's nothing new—to give $10 billion to the US and UK militaries as part of AUKUS. We've already seen that fly out the door. This is literally funnelling our taxpayer dollars to the UK and the US military. We're already doing that in real time. You will watch Senator Shoebridge do an amazing job during Defence estimates, trying to get the answers. Unfortunately, it is like question time minus the answers, Senator Shoebridge, but we continue to ask these questions.</para>
<para>Just last week, the US Congress passed an $825 billion defence budget. This wasn't a budget just for a singular approach. This is more than the budget of 10 countries combined, not just one. So I don't think it is unreasonable to suggest that the US don't need any more money at all, and they certainly don't need our money for their defence budget. They don't need to be bankrolled by the Australian taxpayer, okay?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Those poor US defence contractors! The poor people at Rolls-Royce!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Absolutely. It's ridiculous that we are to see the sending of billions of our dollars overseas to the US and to the UK when we've got people in this country sleeping in cars, who can't afford medications, who have to choose between paying their bills or eating. That's in a developed nation like Australia, and we go, 'Hey, let's just palm off a whole lot of billions of dollars to other militaries in the US and the UK.' It's ridiculous.</para>
<para>The Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 is also a precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines. In effect, it creates a bubble, allowing licence free exports for military and dual-use goods. Isn't that amazing? Fundamentally, this will cut us off. It will cut us off from the rest of the world, as there will be harsher restrictions on working with people outside of that bubble. If you create a bubble, you've got to stay in it. You can't just step outside of it when you feel like it and you will have harsher restrictions. This will, in fact, align Australia's scientific community, national security controls and military with the US. It will do all of those things, and it will be the people again who will suffer because of the bad choices of this government.</para>
<para>This bill, in its current state, would absolutely force researchers and businesses from countries like South Korea and India who've been working on technology that's deemed 'dual use' to stop and get approval from the minister or risk being thrown into prison for 10 years. You're going to go to prison because of the restrictions that are going to be put into this bill. That's ridiculous. And it will certainly and absolutely see certain sectors have to obtain permits just to do basic research. It's putting an unworkable burden on the higher education sector—I know my colleague Senator Faruqi has already talked about that—and on industry. In some cases, they are already struggling to keep up with the need to constantly apply for grants to keep up funding for their research. As the previous portfolio holder for science, I heard this directly from researchers. They don't have time to keep up with the grants, but now we're putting an extra burden on them by asking them to apply for additional permits.</para>
<para>The Department of Defence is unable to provide any clarity on the impact of this bill, what it might actually do and what they're going to do to mitigate any of the impacts. It's the same old thing from the Department of Defence. Indeed, the Department of Defence has also made some contradictory statements about the number of permits that may be impacted, required or exempt under this new framework. So again they continue their wonderful pattern of behaviour of not answering any questions and just sidestepping. We just needed a figure. We simply don't know to what extent this bill will impact the sector but it will impact mostly on our research and higher education sectors, which are already under stress. We know that. We are already seeing the impacts of brain drain. We are already struggling to keep our talent here because of the state of those sectors. It is competitive, and they are going overseas because of it. Now this will act as one of the biggest disincentives for most of the world to work with our Australian researchers.</para>
<para>The military secrets bill seeks to create an offence which, in fact, already exists. This bill seeks to introduce harsher penalties and more ministerial power—like they need any more power; they're already power drunk—to punish members of the ADF who train or work with certain foreign militaries or government entities. It's already an offence to disclose military secrets, but we want to give more power to them. This change will require Defence personnel and public servants to obtain authorisation before working with any other government entity, with a handy exemption for the Five Eyes nations of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and the US. This again ensures that Australia's regime is aligned with the US. God knows how many times I've been in this chamber and heard people talk about Australian sovereignty. Australia's sovereignty is under threat under this agreement. We will never be able to make decisions for ourselves if we continue down this path.</para>
<para>The Australian Greens absolutely don't support this bill. It's been rushed through despite all of the significant concerns, particularly from academia and from businesses. It fails to address the very real issues with our defence export regime. It will have the most devastating impacts on Australian research and technology sectors if it is rubberstamped and passed without any scrutiny and without any change. As a place of scrutiny of legislation, we should be doing at least that.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to associate myself with the comments made by the other members of the Greens Senate team, Senator Shoebridge, Senator Cox and others who have spoken today on this legislation, the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024. I stand here proudly as a member of a party that is committed to peace and nuclear nonproliferation, unlike the Labor government and the coalition, who are standing together to increase our participation in the military industrial complex. I think I stand here on behalf of the majority of Australians, who do not want to see us go down the path of committing ourselves to war rather than working for peace.</para>
<para>It's a great shame that we're being told what legislation to pass and when by a foreign government. As my colleagues have said, this legislation will enmesh Australia further into the US regulatory system. Already the cost of AUKUS sits at an eye-watering $368 billion—a figure, I might note, that seems to increase every time we get an update. These are public funds that are being funnelled into foreign military industries. To date, the failure of AUKUS has been profound. We are giving billions of dollars to the US and the UK; we have abandoned an independent foreign policy; and, as Senator Cox has said, we are simply turning Australia into a parking lot for US weapons. For what? For nothing.</para>
<para>The United States has shown little interest in maintaining their end of the deal. The legislation that was passed by the US in Congress doesn't even guarantee Australia the sale of nuclear-powered submarines and, as Senator Cox has said, it's questionable whether we'll ever get them. Given the US currently can't build enough nuclear submarines to meet its own needs, let alone Australia's, this surely has to be a poison pill for the AUKUS deal. I think the United States is taking Australia for a ride, and I'm amazed that the coalition and the Labor government cannot see that.</para>
<para>In the same week that Labor are trying to ram through legislation written by the gas industry, they're also doing the bidding of the US military establishment. So much for governing for the people! These bills tie us to the United States for good. We hear a lot of talk in this chamber about how we have to make decisions for future generations. I question whether our future generations want to be tied to the United States. Think about what that means. Think about what that might mean being tied to. We can either have an independent foreign policy or nuclear submarines from the US but we are in the going to get both. The ALP's own backyard is crying out against AUKUS, with one Labor group calling for a freeze on AUKUS so as to stop 'underwriting the US Navy industrial shipyards'.</para>
<para>My colleagues have also talked about the fact that, in terms of research, as part of this AUKUS package, the bills that are before us today are going to cut Australia off from the rest of the world. This will make it easier to exchange scientific ideas and technology with the US and the UK, but it's going to put up barriers against us doing that with every other country. If this legislation is passed in its current state, researchers and businesses working with people from countries like South Korea or India on technology and research that does have a dual use, they'll have to stop and will have to get approval from the minister. Do we really want that to happen? Do we really think that that is going to improve the research output of this country?</para>
<para>We hear a lot of talk about how we want to revive manufacturing and we want to be the country that starts to really take control of the way we look at industry, and here we are signing ourselves up to a situation where, if it's not with the US and the UK, the minister gets to decide if it's going to be a problem. This has rightly drawn widespread criticism from industry and the higher education sector. They have raised real concerns that this bill will force them to apply for thousands of new permits to do basic research and product development. It hardly seems a way to improve our economy.</para>
<para>It's a moment of political irony that this bill is touted as part of Australia's national security response yet, in fact, will make Australians less safe while stunting both our academic and economic growth. In a time of global multifaceted problems facing society, locking down research works against our best interests. Australia should be doing everything in our power to seek out strong scientific and research relationships with the rest of the world, not cutting them off. The inquiry into this bill painted a disturbing picture of the national research brain drain that will follow if these bills proceed. All of these concerns are being swept aside by Labor and the coalition with their uncritical cheerleading for AUKUS.</para>
<para>AUKUS, all round, is a bad deal for Australia. We are giving billions of dollars to foreign militaries and the defence contractors and the lobbyists and the consultants that circle around them. We are ploughing ahead with a defence policy conceived in the boardrooms of the defence industry in Washington. We should ask ourselves why Labor and coalition politicians are queueing up to kiss the hands of foreign defence industries. Could it have something to do with the soft landing that many of them and their staff take with these firms when they leave politics?</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Shoebridge. On the other side of the world, our future and our best interests barely register on the radar of US and UK defence establishments. We are kidding ourselves if we think that they are sitting over there worried about us. We are pursuing a jingoistic defence strategy without a clear-headed idea of where this ultimately leads. Again, I repeat, research shows us that the majority of Australians do not want our primary ally to be the United States. AUKUS carves our relationship with the US into stone. It locks us in permanently with a foreign power that will walk away from us the moment it is politically expedient to do so.</para>
<para>In the past few weeks we have discovered that not only are we on the hook for the $368 billion; we are now going to prop up the flailing British defence industry with a $5 billion subsidy. Let me say that again: $5 billion—dropped like we found it down the back of the couch. The United Kingdom barely had to flex their diplomatic muscles for our government to fall over itself to throw money at BAE. This is the same British defence company that has blown out the build of the Hunter class frigates by $20 billion. So let's not pretend that they are not going to come back with their hands out again in another six months.</para>
<para>AUKUS is a bad deal all round, and the Australian government is getting fleeced from both directions. It also goes beyond just being a bad deal. The pursuit of AUKUS is actively against our best interests as a nation. We are allowing ourselves to be treated as pawns in a geopolitical game. We have our own interests, our own beliefs and our own future. We have seen the United States uncritically backing Israel's war in Gaza, pouring billions into Israel while threatening to sanction the international bodies who govern our rules based system. It's an incredibly risky time to be tying ourselves forever to the United States. The US government has rejected and in some cases threatened the existence of the international institutions that are working towards peace. The actions of the United States in supporting the Israeli government in this time of escalating humanitarian catastrophe, while we see war crime after war crime after war crime broadcast from Gaza, risk destabilising Australia. It is well past due to examine what exactly our shared interests with the United States are in our defence strategy. We should be even more critical, as we head into a possible change of the US presidency, of who we are being tied to. We are at genuine risk of being stuck at the end of a bad deal with an unstable authoritarian US commander-in-chief pulling our strings.</para>
<para>We are escalating tensions in the Asia Pacific rather than diffusing them. The world is facing an unprecedented climate crisis and rapidly expanding wealth inequality, and the solutions to these rely on global cooperation. We should be focusing on the true existential threat to the future of this planet—global boiling. Rather than building up an industry for weapons, we should be fostering our renewables industry. And we should be going out to our neighbours and doing everything that we can to help bring down global emissions. That is our real moral obligation to the region and to our neighbours.</para>
<para>These bills lock Australia into the whims of foreign governments in the United States and the United Kingdom, and the Greens oppose them. It is disgraceful that this is what the Labor government has decided to prioritise. And, as Senator Rice said, this is about choices. We currently have a situation where nearly every single public school in this country remains underfunded. Kids cannot get the resources that they need to reach their potential. We also have people in our community who are being punished and kicked down by a punitive welfare system. We have people who can't afford to put food on the table, to pay their rent, to buy their kids the stuff they need for school. And we have renters facing exorbitant rent increases and people right across the country in housing stress.</para>
<para>My office is below the department of housing in Gladstone. Every day we have people coming into our office, who've been told there is nowhere for them, who are an incredible distress. These are the things this government is choosing not to spend money on, instead giving that money to the UK and the US for nuclear submarines—presuming we get some. Why is it that this is what the Labor government treats as an urgent priority, signing over our research, our regulatory systems and just more money to the US government.</para>
<para>At the end of this fruitless exercise is a wasteful AUKUS deal. AUKUS is a self-fulfilling prophecy of antagonism and conflict. It is not a recipe for cooperation and peace. It is throwing in the towel to build constructive relationships with our neighbours. We are seeing, increasingly, around the world people taking to the streets. They are speaking up against the war preparation economy, the military industrial complex. They are starting to question why governments continue to prioritise and funnel money into defence while people in the community need government help and support. The Greens are proud to stand with every single person who is against the AUKUS deal and who wants our government to work for peace. We reject the wasteful AUKUS plan and we reject these bills today.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill, and I associate myself with the comments of my colleagues Senators Shoebridge, Cox, Rice, Whish-Wilson and Allman-Payne.</para>
<para>The safeguarding military secrets bill seeks to introduce harsher punishments and more ministerial powers to punish ADF personnel who train or work with certain foreign militaries and government entities. It is already illegal for defence personnel to disclose military secrets; however, this will require defence personnel and public servants to obtain authorisation before working for another government entity. Five Eyes nations are exempt.</para>
<para>The Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 is intended by the Albanese government as part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation to align Australia's scientific community, national security controls and military with the US. This is a precondition for Australia to receive nuclear submarines under AUKUS Pillar I and to have greater access to US military technology under AUKUS Pillar II. Both bills are needed for the US to allow AUKUS to proceed. They are designed to integrate Australian regulation with US regulation. They have very important implications for the conduct of research and the independent work of so many Australian scientists.</para>
<para>The bill does not deal at all with a critical safeguard issue—that is, the tracking or potential regulation punishment of ADF personnel who take ADF information as they move to big consulting firms. Nothing is said about this issue. A hundred ex-ADF personnel have done so in the last five years, moving to KPMG specifically—100 of them! There is no tracking of what material they take and what their activities are after they leave Defence, as we affirmed in the recent round of estimates. As Mr Yannopoulos said to me in response to questions about this issue, Defence do not track staff once they leave Defence. All staff who hold a security clearance remain subject to individual responsibility requirements associated with holding a security clearance, including the Defence Security Principles Framework. What we have here is the possibility of a really significant use of materials which is unknown, untracked and unregulated by the Department of Defence. So there's a lot that we should be doing that we're not doing.</para>
<para>This bill is to enable AUKUS. However, as we have heard, AUKUS is all wrong, and it is a long way from being an assured reality. AUKUS makes us less safe. It should be opposed. Citizens want us to pay attention and get our defence right, and we Greens have opposed this all the way. It is a deal which makes us less safe. It was rushed through by the then PM Morrison and signed up to overnight by Labor. When AUKUS was announced, we Greens recognised it for what it is—a $365 billion nuclear powered raid on public education, on health, on housing, on First Nations justice and on the response to the climate crisis that will starve those core services for decades to come. As other senators have commented on in this debate, $365 billion is enough funds to solve any of the major crises that we currently face—any one of them. It's an enormous amount of money. It won't solve everything but it would allow us to have a front-footed response to the climate crisis. It would allow us to do the things that we need to do in our education and health systems. Instead, we are putting it into nuclear powered submarines.</para>
<para>And, needless to say, the big consultant spruikers are at the table, monetising every opportunity—KPMG, EY, PwC and Deloitte. Former politicians Christopher Pyne, Downer and Morrison are all at this table as well—or, in the case of Morrison, have tried very hard to get to it.</para>
<para>The list of what is wrong with AUKUS is long. It includes at the beginning that very, very big spend—$365 billion. This will crowd out spending on the things we need for decades ahead. For 40 years ahead, it will mean we'll hear 'no' to the pressing issues of raising the level of income support, for example, to the millions of Australians who live on it.</para>
<para>Secondly, there's the very significant question of sovereignty. The AUKUS deal hitches our defence more tightly to the US. It pivots us from our defence of our nation to an offensive posture in the region, and it escalates the chances of war. Every parent must quake at its possibilities for the children of our future.</para>
<para>Thirdly, it doesn't give citizens a say. It hasn't given our citizens a say. Australian citizens have not been presented with options, possibilities and full information about the AUKUS deal. They were presented with a hugely expensive submarine pathway. What are the alternatives, and why haven't Australians had the full opportunity to think about them, to respond to them and to have a say?</para>
<para>Fourthly, there's the question of technology. Today's technologies of war are not built for 40 years hence any more than our phones of today will look in 10 years time like they look today. We are locking in last century's submarines for 21st-century defence. This is a serious error, and many commentators point to it.</para>
<para>Fifthly, there's the question of jobs. We in South Australia have heard it all before. We have heard a promise of jobs out of defence projects which have come too late, too little and at great expense. We need investment in the clean, green jobs of our future, not the crumbs falling from the table of our greater integration in the US military industrial complex. These will be, if they come to fruition, the most expensive public jobs on the planet. We could create many more jobs which would help us deal with the crises in our health, education, and climate. These would be jobs that are much more socially useful, and we could develop the skills we need for the future for a lot less money. South Australians are appropriately cynical about the job offerings they have been promised, and they are right to be.</para>
<para>Sixthly, there is the question of waste. The nuke-spruikers are hard at work amongst us, already in the corridors of government and business, telling us, 'Nuclear waste is not a problem.' They are also selling a greater fantasy—that we could take the world's nuclear submarine waste and make money out of it. There is in fact no solution to the waste out of nuclear powered submarines anywhere on the planet. Australians have said no again and again to attempting to bury nuclear waste, and we say no again now. Nowhere on the planet is submarine waste permanently and safely disposed of.</para>
<para>Finally, there is the question of First Nations voice. Free, prior, informed consent for First Nations people around where waste is placed is vital, especially in South Australia, with our history of nuclear weapons testing at Maralinga and Emu Fields, and all of the intergenerational consequences and tragedies that it has imposed on First Nations people in our state. South Australia's First Nations people deserve a clear voice around waste disposal, the right to full information and the right to a veto around the placement of nuclear waste, which has been so damaging to those First Nations people in our history.</para>
<para>In the fine print of the AUKUS agreement the Australian government has agreed to manage the radioactive waste from nuclear submarine sources from the UK and the US. The truth about our nuclear waste disposal systems is that finding a permanent solution for the safe storage of the world's nuclear waste remains a big, dangerous challenge everywhere. It is a very expensive problem and challenge. The UK has 70 years worth of waste from its nuclear power plants, 260,000 tonnes of it, in unsafe temporary storage. It is a major problem for their government and their citizens. In the US, nuclear disposal has plagued by dangerous leaks and failures. No long-term solution exists in the US, not for waste from power generation or from nuclear powered submarines. No country on earth has safely disposed of its high-level nuclear waste for the long term. After many decades, Finland is approaching completion of its waste proposal. But the process there has been long and complex, and it is still not operating. Any senator in this place who wants to propose anything nuclear, including nuclear powered submarines, has to give citizens a proposal for waste disposal. They cannot kick the can down the road to future generations and budgets, and they need to not leave highly toxic waste in dangerous temporary storage, often against the wishes of local communities, including First Nations communities.</para>
<para>The AUKUS submarine deal, if it went ahead, would take us to a whole new country. It would lock Australia into managing large quantities of high-level radioactive waste. The fuel from decommissioned submarines is nuclear weapons grade. It would require military security, and it must be safely stored, not for 300 years, not for 10,000 years, but for at least 100,000 years. Neither the UK nor the US have been able to find permanent storage solutions for their submarine waste. Given successive governments have continuously failed to manage much less dangerous radioactive waste in Australia—low-level waste, medium-level waste—any government will find it very hard to find a solution to dispose of nuclear waste arising from the AUKUS submarines.</para>
<para>Traditional owners of any future site should have a say and a veto about any such proposal. That is a basic requirement if there is to be a true voice for First Nations people around this incredible deal. The AUKUS deal has sparked a new conversation about nuclear waste storage, and this is a threshold issue that the AUKUS deal must deal with if it is going to proceed.</para>
<para>The long and devastating history behind the proposal for a nuclear waste dump in my own state is well known. We cannot forget the impacts of the nine devastating British atomic tests at Maralinga and Emu Field in the 1950s. Those impacts still persist, and we're coming up to the 70th anniversary of the tests. It wasn't our enemies who let off those bombs; it was our allies. Atomic bombs were tested on the Aboriginal land of the Anangu people, many of whom were forcibly removed from their traditional lands in the lead-up to the tests. However, about 1,200 First Nations people were exposed to radiation during the testing, and the explosion and radioactive fallout caused incredible long-term consequences to their bodies, to their children and to subsequent generations. It certainly led to the deaths of entire families.</para>
<para>Veterans of the nuclear tests and First Nations people living near the sites suffer high cancer mortality rates and more cancers than the general population. The Royal Commission into the British Nuclear Tests in Australia found that attempts to ensure the safety of Aboriginal people were riddled with ignorance, incompetence and cynicism. It is no wonder that so many South Australians are asking: What is the solution for AUKUS around the disposal of nuclear waste? How do we manage something which no other country has been able to manage? How do we assure our First Nations communities that they will be safe and that they will truly have informed consent?</para>
<para>South Australians spoke loudly and clearly when they opposed South Australian Premier Jay Weatherill's proposed nuclear dump in 2017, and I'm proud to have been part of the group of economists and community members who contributed to the discussion around that dump and addressed the citizens' jury. However, attempts at nuclear colonisation persist in South Australia. For the fourth time in 23 years, South Australia was targeted for a nuclear waste dump—this time at Napandee, a property near Kimba on the Eyre Peninsula. The Barngarla people spoke loudly and firmly. They are not to be messed with. They said no. They opposed the dump, and they won their challenge in the Federal Court last year, with a court ruling that the Barngarla people were not properly consulted. So the push towards AUKUS must deal with the reality of disposal of waste and appropriate, respectful treatment of First Nations people.</para>
<para>AUKUS ensures a greater primary alliance and dependence on the US and its technology, and many Australians are concerned about that dependence. Hitching our wagon to the US will drag us into their future wars and result in bad political decisions, as our past defence policy has at times. AUKUS is a whole new ball game. Engaging in AUKUS and strengthening our defence, research and technology ties with the US buys a future with more of that dependence. The US and the UK see Australia as a sucker who will give them their military's money and allow them to keep their nuclear submarines here—half parking lot and half nuclear dump, under the guise of AUKUS. Just look at the $5 billion so recently given directly to Rolls-Royce. What a scandal!</para>
<para>There is a long list of reasons why AUKUS is a bad idea. Most important amongst them is that there is no sensible solution for waste, and this is not a small problem. The bill currently before parliament is part of a suite of AUKUS related legislation to ensure Australia's military export systems align with the US. It will cut Australia off from the rest of the world and tie us to the US. The Greens will not support it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the debate so far on the Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024, you've heard from the Greens team the type of measured, intellectually engaged, mature analysis in relation to AUKUS that the Australian community expect about critical engagement with a massive proposal put to the parliament without a vote of the community and without an opportunity to go to an election on it because both sides of politics—the Labor Party and the Liberal Party—decided to back each other in. In relation to AUKUS, you've heard from Senator Cox about the implications for First Nations people, from Senator Pocock the implications for South Australia and from Senator Shoebridge the defence implications particularly. I want to add to that by directing my contribution to the diplomatic and foreign policy implications of the AUKUS pact, and it's right to do this in relation to this piece of legislation because it is a key enabler of the AUKUS political pact.</para>
<para>The Australian public expect that their foreign policy, the foreign policy conducted on their behalf by their government in their name, is independent in its nature, meeting the needs of the Australian community. Yet the AUKUS political pact, supported by both sides in this place, makes Australia's foreign policy subservient to that of the United States and the United Kingdom. The Australian community are very clear. We understand all too well the implications and the impact of letting Washington or London set the foreign policy agenda of this nation. We understand it because we watched as John Howard and George Bush took the Australian community to war in Iraq and Afghanistan against the overwhelming opposition of the Australian community—and the global community, in fact. Humanity united as it had never quite been in the history of our species to oppose the act of invasion, of illegal warfare, which was the invasion of Iraq. The catchcry of that movement was that we did not want to see men and women go to war, sent overseas to kill their fellow human beings because that would help the bottom lines of American oil corporations and help the domestic political dynamic of the Bush administration, of the Blair administration and of Howard here at home. We said together no to war, and we were right to do so.</para>
<para>It is in my mind, as I contribute to this debate, that we have only just learned, 20 years later, that in fact the suspicions of the antiwar movement at the time—that US political interests and the interests of US oil companies were driving the push for the war in Iraq and the Howard government's response to it—were in fact correct, because the cabinet papers spelt it out in black and white. And 20 years on from that disaster, only a couple of years out of ending the debacle of the war in Afghanistan, this parliament has brought before it a bill, under the name of a Labor government, which would seek to bind us in perpetuity to the foreign policy of the United States of America.</para>
<para>This pact makes no sense. It puts us at risk. It undermines the independence of our foreign policy and prevents us from playing a key role in our region, in addressing and engaging authentically with the actual needs of the region and of the community here in Australia to tackle climate change, to improve public health, to invest in education, to strengthen social services, to support human rights. All of these are the needs and demands of the Asia-Pacific community, of the Pacific Islands community, of people here in Australia. It is all being subsumed and undermined by this thoughtless charge into a closer alliance with the United States.</para>
<para>So the Greens will continue to oppose it, and we will continue to work with those in the antiwar and the pro-peace movement to oppose it. We join with those in the Australian community, the 80 per cent of the Australian community, who do not want to see a closer alliance with the United States, particularly a United States led by Donald Trump. We look at that prospect, another 20 years of following the US into regime change war after regime change war, and we say no. We proudly place our opposition on the record, and challenge those who would support that idea to cite a single instance, a single instance in the postwar period—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, it's now 1.30 pm. We'll move to two-minute statements.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>31</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>New Vehicle Efficiency Standard</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today I rise to address the potential impact of the government's proposed New Vehicle Efficiency Standard on both new car dealers and consumers. Earlier this month, I had the opportunity to meet with representatives from new car dealer groups in Tasmania, who expressed a shared concern that the proposed legislation will have serious impacts on consumers and local businesses by driving up the cost of new vehicles.</para>
<para>There is a wide range of valid concerns associated with this proposal. It will push up the price of a new vehicle, hitting families already dealing with the skyrocketing cost of living. It's anticipated that new car sales may decrease, also leading to price hikes for popular second-hand vehicles like utes and trucks. While consumers may be inclined to purchase low-emission vehicles, governments should not be forcing Australians to buy electric cars which may not meet their specific needs, budget constraints, safety requirements or cost effectiveness. This government is unable to even guarantee that these vehicles will be available in Australia in sufficient numbers.</para>
<para>As the US government has found, there is no way that production of electric vehicles will be able to meet the demand that their government is trying to create by making other vehicles more expensive. The Labor government's plan will put all of us at the mercy of Chinese production of electric vehicles, just at the Albanese government seems intent on putting our energy security at the mercy of Chinese-made solar panels and wind turbines.</para>
<para>The Albanese government have to stop making everything more expensive for Australian families just so they can pursue their own ideological agenda. They need to stop trying to ram through bad ideas and go back to the drawing board, consult properly and come up with a plan that doesn't punish families, tradies and local businesses.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Albanese Government: Economy</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Albanese government is delivering on our commitment of good, secure, well-paid jobs for all Australians. We want more Australians in secure work, and we want them to earn more and to keep more of what they earn. That is exactly what we're getting on with. Not only is unemployment remaining at record lows, coming in at 3.7 per cent, but 790,000 jobs have been created under our Albanese Labor government. More jobs have been created on our watch than in any first-term government on record. We know that creating jobs is our job and we haven't seen such record jobs growth.</para>
<para>Wages are finally moving again. Under the LNP, low wages growth was a deliberate design feature of their economic architecture. That's not the case for our government. Under our government wages growth is at 4.2 per cent, the highest it has been in 15 years. And on Thursday, our government will recommend to the Fair Work Commission that real wages of Australian low-paid workers should not go backwards. Getting wages moving again is the key to helping people get in front, while dealing with the pressures of cost of living.</para>
<para>From 1 July, our government will deliver bigger tax cuts for all Australians. These changes mean that 13.6 million taxpayers will receive a tax cut and 11.5 million taxpayers will receive a bigger tax cut than under the former plan. It also means that 5.8 million women will now receive a bigger tax cut. This is a big win for working families, a big win for women and a big win for middle Australia. Our economic plan is all about helping Australians earn more and keep more of what they earn, which is why we're focused on delivering strong, sustainable wages growth and more jobs for all Australians.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Koalas</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last month, horrific footage emerged in South Australia of koalas swinging from falling trees on Kangaroo Island as the forest was being logged. It was harrowing to see these poor koalas clinging on for dear life as the trees were being knocked down and their homes destroyed. The company responsible is called Kiland. It's New South Wales based. They had a management plan that allowed them to chop down these trees while koalas were still in them. Dozens of koalas have been killed and dozens more injured. This is barbaric, it's disgusting and it needs to stop. Those responsible inside this company need to be held to account. Who has been sacked because of this? Who will be sacked because of this? How do we make sure this company never, ever gets another contract like this one?</para>
<para>But it gets worse, because the money that was being used in this particular operation was partly funded by the Australian taxpayer, by the federal government. Fifteen million dollars was committed by the federal government to support parts of this operation. The Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Minister Watt, needs to answer and make it very clear to the South Australian people and to people across this country and the world that this type of activity is barbaric and should never, ever happen again.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Easter</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KOVACIC</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yesterday I was honoured to attend the Assyrian New Year celebration in Western Sydney, a testament to multicultural Australia. It caused me to pause and reflect, particularly with yesterday being Palm Sunday, marking the commencement of Holy Week, leading up to Easter. The Assyrian community is a living bridge between ancient and modern times. Through the enduring use of Aramaic, one of the world's oldest spoken languages, Assyrians weave the tapestry of human history into the fabric of today.</para>
<para>The Assyrian community's journey through history is also marked by chapters of Christian persecution. As one of the earliest groups to adopt Christianity, they have faced centuries of adversities that have threatened their existence and threatened their faith. The wicked issue of Christian persecution is not relegated to the history books or the Assyrian community or the Assyrian diaspora, and it continues to this day. According to Christian organisation Open Doors, more than 365 million Christians suffer high levels of persecution and discrimination for their faith. In the last year alone, some 5,000 Christians were murdered, some 15,000 churches and Christian properties were attacked and 4,125 Christians were detained worldwide.</para>
<para>Against the backdrop of these troubling statistics, Holy Week urges us to contemplate the core teachings of Christianity. Easter serves as a poignant reminder of the transformative power of forgiveness, the importance of compassion towards others and the strength found in faith amidst adversity and embracing the possibility of renewal and forgiveness. It is a message of hope, an opportunity to start again, to do better and to be better. These teachings offer a blueprint for tolerance, a quality all too absent in Australian political discourse today and otherwise.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Paid Parental Leave: Superannuation</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When it comes to paid parental leave, we know that expanding access is good for women, good for their partners, important for their babies and beneficial for our broader economy. It's also a key way we can advance gender equality and help close the pervasive gender pay gap. But these changes don't come about by accident; this is something which would never have happened without a Labor government acting on behalf of those parents and children who stand to benefit most from an expanded scheme, those men and women who will make different decisions because of the scheme, who will have more time with their precious babies because of it and who will stay better connected to the workforce and therefore have greater economic security because of our government's changes.</para>
<para>But of course in all of this there has been some unfinished business. We are working tirelessly as a government to close the gender pay gap, and the progress has been real. But the super pay gap matters too, and that's why I am so proud that our government has announced that superannuation on government paid parental leave will be paid from 1 July 2025. There are many people across our community who have championed this reform. But today I want to acknowledge the special contribution of one woman in particular, and that is Sam, a proud delegate for the SDA who I met first back in 2019, when her youngest daughter was just four months old. Sam is a supermarket worker raising three young children, living here in Canberra. She has been a night manager and worked for one of the two major supermarket chains for 16 years. She has been fighting for super on every dollar since 2014. She has been in this building many times, taken her advocacy up to politicians from across the aisle and been relentless in pursuing this reform. I want to acknowledge Sam today and her brothers and sisters in the union movement and at the SDA, as well as all of those who have long advocated to see this change. You should be so proud of this nation-changing reform.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Easter</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In this week before Easter, I'm reminded of an old joke: Pontius Pilate said to Joseph, 'I don't understand, Joseph; you are a wealthy man and you have spent a fortune building a tomb for yourself and now you have given it to this pauper named Jesus,' and Joseph replied, 'It is only for the weekend.' Easter weekend is upon us and the act of kindness from Joseph has endured for more than a weekend—for 2,000 years. Easter carries a message of rebirth, of starting over in the spirit of a God that forgives our transgressions while asking us through our actions to do better and to be better.</para>
<para>John 14:27 records Jesus's words at the Last Supper, the farewell discourse, as being: 'Peace I leave with you, and the peace I give isn't fragile like the peace the world gives. So don't be troubled or afraid.' All I can say is that Jesus got everything else correct, so I know he will again be right. Yet the world is on the brink of tribulations I have not lived through before and had hoped I never would experience. Some biblical scholars have criticised the farewell discourse as having been written too late after the event, leaving the ending of the discourse open. One would think that was the point. What is the ending? Will it be community and prosperity as we have enjoyed in this beautiful country for hundreds of years or will it be another Dark Ages, this time with the stain and stench of neo-feudalism, violence and a moral relativism, which is really just nihilism repackaged as woke agenda. Will those who think they are too smart for religion succeed in destroying real religions? That is the ending that was not made clear. How could it be? The ending has not been written and we can add just one part of it.</para>
<para>I hope this Easter everyone has a nice break in the real world with our families to strengthen our focus and objectivity, ensuring our contribution to the unwritten ending is peace, prosperity, family and community.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Northern Territory: Crime</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This morning I was disgusted to view footage of a 16-year-old girl being beaten very harshly on the main street of my home town of Alice Springs by a group of women. Those women, I could hear in the video, were Walpiri women. I am a Walpiri woman. I am utterly disturbed when I see this kind of conduct and behaviour. It has been brought to my attention that this may be cultural payback. I want this chamber and the Australian people to know that traditional cultural payback—otherwise known as vigilantism—has no place in our society in 2024.</para>
<para>We have a situation of crime in our streets in the Northern Territory and we ignore the fact that traditional culture plays into this because we are all too scared. It is romanticised and this romanticism needs to stop if we are to support our most marginalised in our communities. I call on the Warlpiri elders to condemn this action and this behaviour and to condemn traditional cultural payback so it does not occur, escalating the crime on our streets over and over again. I ask the Territory government to pull your socks up and do better, to provide protection for our most vulnerable.</para>
<para>This was a 16-year-old girl. Imagine if that were the daughter of someone in the streets of Sydney—her clothes ripped from her body and being stomped on. There is no place for this violence on our streets in Australia in 2024. We should not be treating Indigenous Australians any differently to anybody else and we should not lower our standards or accept this kind of behaviour. Those responsible—with the millions of dollars going to services in my community—need to do their part to stop this kind of behaviour in our community. Enough is enough.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Religious Discrimination</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today—and I welcome it—Equality Australia launched their groundbreaking report on LGBTIQ+ discrimination in religious schools. The findings, unfortunately, do suggest this type of discrimination is endemic in religious schools and organisations across Australia, causing significant harm. More than 70,000 students and some 10,000 staff in non-government schools are estimated to be LGBTIQ+, yet LGBTIQ+ students are more likely to attend an independent school that discriminates against them rather than supports them. That's right. They're more likely to attend a school that discriminates against them rather than supports them.</para>
<para>The report includes accounts of students who've been forced out of school or been told they're going to hell. In other cases, teachers have been fired from their jobs or denied promotions. This discrimination is currently protected by our antidiscrimination laws and is out of step with international law and practice in this area. Many of these organisations rely on billions of dollars of public funding but are not required to comply with the same laws when it comes to employment, education and service delivery as other organisations. As my government has acknowledged, reform is needed at a Commonwealth level, and we're calling on senators and members in both chambers to talk to the community and consider these issues. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Great Southern Reef</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Australians are very familiar with the Great Barrier Reef and the many challenges it faces in a time of climate emergency, including coral bleaching from warming oceans and marine invasive species like crown-of-thorn starfish. They're also becoming increasingly familiar with the Great Southern Reef. This equally important marine ecosystem stretches from New South Wales to Victoria, Tasmania, South Australia through to Western Australia. It is also facing many challenges, including marine invasive species such as the long-spined sea urchin, or <inline font-style="italic">Centrostephanus</inline>.</para>
<para>I'm very proud to acknowledge that today we have a delegation from the Great Southern Reef in the gallery. I want to especially thank Helen Burvill from the Eastern Zone Abalone Industry Association. I also want to thank Chris Daniel and Brendan Wadsworth, both abalone divers; Chris Theodore from the Sea Urchin Harvest; Ryan Morris from the South Coast Sea Urchins; Dr Julian Amos from the Tasmanian Abalone Council; and Dr Patrick Hone from the Fisheries Research and Development Corporation. Travelling with them are Associate Professor Scott Ling and Dr John Keane, scientists from our home state of Tasmania and the Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies, and Dr Scott Bennett and Stefan Andrews, co-founders of the Great Southern Reef Foundation.</para>
<para>Senators can go to Instagram and type in 'Great Southern Reef Foundation'. I urge you to follow them and all the amazing work they are doing. They're coming to Canberra not only to hopefully meet with many of you in the chamber today and in the other place but to raise awareness of the many challenges along our eastern seaboard, right across to Western Australia, for coastal communities, for people who earn an income off the reef, for people who love the reef and want to protect it and for the need for governments to fully fund strategies to deal with these challenges. They're up here to meet politicians and to raise awareness, and I welcome them to Canberra.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Religious Discrimination</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I always thought that freedom of religion and freedom of association were foundational freedoms beyond interference from government, but, hey, I guess I was wrong. You can imagine my shock when the ALRC's report on religious educational institutions and antidiscrimination laws was released just recently. Christian school groups have labelled the report as a direct attack on faith and freedom of belief in Australia, and they say that, if the recommendations are adopted, Christian education as we know it will cease to exist. The recommendations will restrict who Christian schools can employ and what Christian teachers can teach. Since when does the government have the right to tell Christian schools what they must do, who they must employ and what their values and ethics should be? If you don't believe in the teachings of the Bible, then just stay away from Christian schools, just like I stay away from Labor and the Greens because I don't believe in socialist ideology. Religious schools only exist because families want their children taught by people who believe in the teachings of the Bible, and that is their right. The Law Reform Commission's recommendations are a shocking overreach of state power, and they deserve to be ridiculed. They really have no place in our society. Even if you are not a religious person, you, like every single one of us, should fight for the rights of religious people to practise their faith, to associate with people who share their faith and to raise their own children in accordance with their faith. For this reason, I completely reject the commission's recommendations.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rees, Ms Suzanne (Sue), OAM</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak about my friend Sue Rees, a woman who has spent years creating opportunities for girls and young women in Tasmania. I first met Sue while I was at high school when she tutored my year group in deportment and social skills—yes, I do remember walking with a book on my head! I was so pleased to hear that Sue was awarded a much-deserved Medal of the Order of Australia in the 2024 Australia Day honours list for service to our community.</para>
<para>Deportment might seem an old-fashioned concept in today's world; however, Sue Rees has helped prepare thousands of women and girls to approach life with confidence, through almost 50 years of mentoring. Sue's deportment and modelling classes go beyond what it means to wear the latest styles or walk a certain way. Her students, including my daughter, leave her courses standing taller—literally and figuratively—and striving for even bigger life goals than they previously imagined. Her aim has always been to help young women reach their full potential, after experiencing similar training and encouragement herself.</para>
<para>A model throughout the 1960s and 1970s, Sue took the opportunity to combine her love of modelling and travel with small business and purchased the Phyllis McDonald Deportment School in 1975 and later changed it to the Sue Rees Modelling and Deportment Academy. Besides the deportment and modelling classes Sue has run for nearly five decades, she has organised hundreds of fashion shows, judged Fashions on the Field events throughout the state and served as state manager and national director and producer for Miss Teen Australia. Further, Sue initiated and coordinates a strong support and networking group for women known as the Circle of Friends and is also a board member of the Tasmanian Turf Club and has previously worked in business development and guest relations at Country Club Tasmania.</para>
<para>Congratulations, Sue, on being awarded for your outstanding contribution to our community. I, like so many other Tasmanian women, thank you for your life's work and dedication.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing, Vocational Education and Training</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Over 4,500 Tasmanian families are on the waiting list for a home, and they'll wait for almost two years to get one. Wherever you go in Tassie, housing is front of mind for most people. If you're not struggling to find a house or a rental, you know someone who is. We know we're in a housing crisis, and the best way to help people get a roof over their heads, to help renters and to get on top of this problem is to build more homes. But houses don't just spring up by themselves as if grown from magical beans. We need tradies to build them, and it's pretty clear that we don't have enough tradies around to build the number of houses we need.</para>
<para>According to Build Skills Australia, a government body, we're short about 90,000 tradies. We can't wave a magic wand and have 90,000 new tradies appear in a few months. It takes years for people to complete a trade qualification, and there are just not enough Australians who are taking them on. It's obvious there's a role for migrants to play here. Trades aren't on the priority migration skilled occupation list, but they should be. If there are people who want to come to Australia who already have the skills we need and can get to work on construction straightaway, let's make sure they get here without months and years of red tape. We can also incentivise migrants who are already here and currently without work to take up a trade. Let's give them access to free TAFE places and think about pathways to citizenship if they do. It will bring in people who can be skilled up quickly and give them an incentive to pick a trade over other career paths. If we don't take action now to boost our tradie numbers, getting on top of the housing crisis will continue to be a distant dream rather than a reality.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>AUKUS</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week I asked Minister Wong about AUKUS. It turns out the mind-boggling 368 billion taxpayer dollars for nuclear submarines doesn't even include the cost of managing and storing nuclear waste. That waste never goes away and becomes a matter for future generations to deal with, and we don't even know the price tag it will carry.</para>
<para>The Australian Naval Nuclear Safety Bill would allow Australia to take on radioactive waste from the US and the UK through the AUKUS deal. This is being kept quiet by the government and, unless the bill is amended, it will leave us open to becoming the world's nuclear waste dump. We are talking high-level and military-grade radioactive waste which is highly toxic and dangerous. After seven decades of nuclear submarines, the US and UK still have no solution for their waste, yet here we are, jumping at the opportunity to take it on. We are actually paying for the privilege of being useful to the UK and the US. We are putting ourselves in harm's way to cosy up to their genocidal, warmongering, dangerous and toxic ways. We want peace, not more war.</para>
<para>Britain already has a history of testing nuclear bombs at Maralinga and the Pacific Islands and has never been held accountable—just another horrifying act in the ongoing genocide of our people. Our tax dollars should be spent on things that sustain life, not destroy it. Our safety and future depend on it. There is no consent to store your toxic waste on our lands.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Renewable Energy</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Earlier this month I had the privilege of attending a community meeting in the small rural Victorian town of Dederang, where they are fighting back plans to build two huge battery storage systems in the beautiful Kiewa Valley in the north-east of Victoria. The Dederang battery energy storage system, BESS, will be the equivalent in size of 10 MCGs. More than 200 residents packed into the Dederang hall on Thursday night. This is a town with a pub and a football field. We got over 200 people along with my state Nationals colleague Tim McCurdy to support locals John and Sharon McEvoy alongside Friends of the Kiewa and Alpine Valley Inc.</para>
<para>The valley is renowned for its dairy products and pristine countryside. It is one of Australia's major food producing regions and it is also a region that is subject to severe bushfire risk. Ambient heat from the proposed battery storage system in summer can be above 65 degrees. Residents have real concerns about safety and bushfire risk because a battery fire can burn for several days, and it will be the local CFA that has to clean it up. It would also release toxic and flammable gases into the environment.</para>
<para>Young dairy farmers Darren Sagrera and Teressa Hicks live on a property 450 metres away and are concerned about water quality. The tourism industry will also be affected as anglers from right around the country come to fish for rainbow and brown trout, golden perch and the Murray spiny crayfish. This area is too valuable to destroy by large intrusive renewable infrastructure. It will be a blight on the Australian landscape and have serious environmental damage potentially for years. They never thought they would have to fight for the right to farm but that is exactly what is happening, and we will fight with them.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Therapeutic Goods and Other Legislation Amendment (Vaping Reforms) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak this afternoon on the new scourge on our community—that is, vaping. I have mentioned many times in this place how disappointed we are in the Liberals, Nationals and Greens for not supporting legislation to change the vaping laws here in Australia. Vaping predominantly affects young people and the industry targets them. We know that shops are setting up very close to schools, but it is the Albanese Labor government, once again, leading the charge to ban vaping in this country.</para>
<para>When it comes to people using vapes for giving up nicotine and smoking, of course they will still have access to them. We want to get them off the cigarettes. But the reality is we need the support in this place and in the other chamber from the Liberals, the Nationals and the Greens, who seem to be putting young people's votes as a priority rather than young people's health because they don't really care about them.</para>
<para>It was a Labor government who led the charge on plain packaging of cigarettes under former minister Nicola Roxon. Now we have the minister for health, the honourable Mark Butler, again leading the charge to eradicate the scourge of vaping. It is a serious issue, and we know two-thirds of young people who vape will go on to smoke cigarettes. It is bad for our health. It is bad for young people. We need to take the leadership at a national level, so I'm calling on the Greens, the Liberals, the Nationals and those on the crossbench to support the legislation when it comes into this place. There is nothing more valuable than young people, and our young Australians need to be protected from this scourge on our society. I urge you to support that legislation—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> The time for two-minute statements has expired. We'll move to question time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>36</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>New Vehicle Efficiency Standard</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Wong. Your colleague Minister Bowen has repeatedly claimed Labor's family car tax is based on the American model. Last week the Biden administration responded to legitimate industry concerns about its version of the fuel efficiency standards by significantly delaying implementation time lines and reducing the level of emissions reduction. This was done, according to reports, to support consumer choice in the United States and to avoid expensive price hikes for household. Given the Albanese government's proposed family car tax sets a much more aggressive rate of emissions than was previously allowed in America, will the government follow President Biden's lead and listen to the legitimate concerns about its fuel efficiency model?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Cadell for the question and for his interest in this area, and I hope that his new-found enthusiasm for the Biden administration might extend to a renewed commitment to renewables, to a belief in climate change actually being something that we need to respond to and deal with, to a belief that an energy transition matters. There are a whole range of things that this administration is engaging in that your party room refused to engage in, refused to do, refused to support. In fact, for nearly a decade in government it ensured that there was no policy reform, no energy policy and no progress when it came to these issues, all because some people over there didn't believe that climate change was a thing.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They still don't.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They still don't. But I do thank him for his question about the vehicle emissions standards. I would note that the vehicle efficiency standards response from those opposite appears to be an argument that people shouldn't be able to buy cars that might cost them less to run in terms of fuel. That seems to be the approach from those opposite: 'Let's make sure we require Australians to purchase vehicles that the rest of the world doesn't want to buy and that will cost them more to run because they'll have to use more fuel.' That appears to be the policy proposition from those opposite. They vote against energy caps and price assistance as well. In answer to the question, Senator Cadell, we are very aware of the Biden administration's policy in this area. That, along with the consultation, will be examined very closely.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Under the Biden government's fuel efficiency model there are substantial subsidies in place for American auto manufacturers and subsidies for people to buy EVs. However, Labor's proposed family car tax would require companies producing petrol, diesel and even hybrid vehicles to purchase credits from EV makers. Is the government aware of any modelling on the cost of subsidies that will be paid to the growing number of Chinese EV makers and Tesla as a result of the proposed car tax?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is it ours or theirs? I am unclear. I apologise, Senator Cadell, if I have misunderstood your question, but—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, I have called the Senate to order, and you have completely ignored that direction.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, I'm unclear whether the last part of your question actually related to what the Biden administration was doing in relation to subsidies and the like. If so, that's a somewhat odd question to ask, because we wouldn't necessarily model what happens in the US market, but I'm happy to make this point more generally: of course we are aware of what has occurred in the United States and what has occurred in other international markets.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Senator Cadell?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cadell</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe the question was about the energy car tax in Australia at the end.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was, but it also went to what the Biden administration were doing, Senator Cadell.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would say that the government has had a consultation process. The government will consider the feedback from the industry and others when we finalise the standards. Of course, as one aspect of that, I'm sure that the ministers will look at what has occurred in relevant international markets, which, as you know, Senator, we do now lag. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given we are in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, why should Australian families have to pay more for the cars that they want and need, like the Ford Ranger and the Toyota Hilux, to help fund subsidies for Tesla and Chinese EV auto owners?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps the question is, why shouldn't Australians be able to buy cars that save them money? What about having some choice? I'm always interested by the fact that the coalition love markets when it suits them. They don't want to regulate wages, but they are quite happy to push back on choice where they have an ideological bent against a particular market regulation. This is about choice. This is about giving Australians the opportunity to buy cars that save them money. We are behind so much of the developed world on this. We've gone through a proper consultation process. I'm sure the ministers will consider all of the consultation carefully as well as looking at the international regulators.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. I am aware that Minister Burke has said that boosting and protecting wages is a key part of the government's plan to help Australians deal with cost-of-living pressures. How is the Albanese Labor government working to get wages moving for low-paid workers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks to Senator Walsh, who, like so many people on this side of the chamber, has devoted her working life to supporting the interests of low-paid workers. Senator Walsh knows that the Albanese government's No. 1 priority is addressing inflation and cost-of-living pressures. We know a lot of people are doing it tough, and that is why each and every day we are working to ensure that Australians earn more and keep more of what they earn. From 1 July, Labor's tax cuts for more taxpayers will help make that happen.</para>
<para>But the other way we can ensure workers can deal with cost-of-living pressures is to get wages moving again, to ensure that workers earn enough to provide for their loved ones and get ahead. Our workplace relations reforms are helping low-paid workers who are doing it the toughest. Today we announced that the Albanese government's submission to the Fair Work Commission's annual wage review, which impacts 2.9 million workers relying on awards, will recommend that real wages of Australia's low-paid workers should not go backwards. People with the lowest wages have least capacity to deal with rising prices, and we want to ensure that their wages keep pace. That is why we've backed in low-paid workers every year at the Fair Work Commission. What a pleasant change that occurred after the change of government. As a result of this change to the Albanese Labor government the minimum wage under our government has increased by 5.2 per cent in 2022 and 8.6 per cent in 2023. Now a full-time minimum wage worker, like a cleaner or retail worker, is earning $110 more per week since Labor took office.</para>
<para>We know the opposition have consistently voted against better wages, secure jobs and closing the gender pay gap, so it's no surprise that today they still can't bring themselves to support our actions. They spent 10 years keeping wages low as a deliberate design feature of their economic policy, and they're still at it today.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Noting that many Australians, particularly in low-paid industries like community and disability services, retail and hospitality, are feeling under the pump as a result of cost-of-living pressures, how is the Albanese Labor government helping workers in low-paid sectors earn more and keep more of what they earn?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How is the government helping workers earn more? It may be a novel idea to those opposite, but we are actually doing it by improving workers' pay and conditions. The Albanese Labor government's workplace relations reforms are helping low-paid workers who are doing it tough to earn more by criminalising wage theft, stopping the underpayment of workers through the use of labour hire and stopping unpaid overtime—all things that were opposed by the coalition in opposition, just as they opposed those types of changes when they were in government. Our reforms are clearly working, with average wages growing at 4.2 per cent, double the rate that occurred under those opposite. But Senator Walsh also asked me how we are helping workers keep more of what they earn, and, of course, from 1 July, Labor is delivering a tax cut for all Australian taxpayers. All 13.6 million taxpayers will receive a tax cut, and more than 95 per cent of nurses, teachers and truckies will receive a bigger tax cut under Labor.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, given that low wages are a deliberate design feature of the Liberal and National economic plan, how is the Albanese Labor government working to reverse a decade of deliberate wage stagnation under those opposite?</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Walsh, and don't we enjoy it when we hear the moaning over the other side every time we talk about the fact that, under Labor, you'll earn more and keep more of what you earn and, under the coalition, you'll earn less and work more. The reason they groan about it is that they're so embarrassed about their record and they're embarrassed about the fact that they still haven't worked out that it was time to shift policy when they lost the election. We know that, if this mob are ever re-elected to government, they will continue their traditional policies of keeping wages low, keeping conditions low and letting the gap between rich and poor get even wider. They have now voted against higher wages for workers more than 27 times in this term of parliament alone, and today we heard the member for New England, who we know still wants to come back as the National Party leader, continue describing pay rises for low-paid workers as window-dressing. Well, I don't think that pay rises for low-paid workers are window-dressing, and no-one on the Labor side does either. Under Labor, you'll keep more of what you earn.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. The most recent Finder RBA survey found that economists' positive sentiment across employment, wage growth, housing affordability, costs of living and household debt was at its second-lowest point in the history of Finder's RBA survey, at 10 per cent, second only to March 2020, which was at eight per cent. Meanwhile, new ABS data has revealed that, over the 12 months to December 2023, all five living-cost indexes rose by up to 6.9 per cent. Isn't it true that Australians are still worse off under Labor than they were a year ago?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There is no shortage of economic data that's published regularly, particularly focusing on the high inflationary environment that we inherited when we came to government in May 2022. That has had an impact on business confidence and how people are feeling. They're feeling under pressure. I don't think we've ever pretended otherwise. That's why our entire effort since coming to government has been on how to ensure that inflation comes down and that we're able to make sensible investments to ease the cost of living where we can. It's why we did the energy bill rebates that you opposed. It's why we put the caps on the gas industry, which you opposed as well. Now we're seeing some relief in that area, with prices coming back a little bit.</para>
<para>But we're not pretending that people aren't feeling under pressure; they are, and that's why our budgets have been focused on investments where we can afford to make them, where they're sensible, where they don't add to inflation and, in fact, where they take pressure off inflation. The energy bill rebates and the rental relief did exactly that. Where we can provide investments into child care and where we can do more in housing—we've got a massive agenda in housing to provide more social and affordable housing options for people, working with the states and territories. It's why we did our tripling of the bulk-billing rate. It's why we've opened the urgent care centres so people can get access to free or affordable health care. That's all of why our budgets have been targeted on making sure we can ease the cost of living, repair the budget, lower the debt, deliver a surplus and build up the drivers we need for future economic growth.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan, your first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A recent report by finance research institute Mozo revealed that three-quarters of Australian mortgage holders are worried about their mortgage repayments in the face of consecutive rate hikes under this government. Why is the government ensuring rates stay higher for longer by committing to billions in new spending?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't accept that question at all. It won't be any surprise, I think, to those opposite. We have been doing what we can, where we have areas of responsibility, to work alongside the bank as they've been undertaking their tightening policy, while we have been making sure we're not adding to the work that they need to do.</para>
<para>I note that those opposite like to talk about this calculator they've done of spending. What they don't tell you is that the vast majority of that, a large part of that, is actually parameter variations for pensions, for JobSeeker and for other investments like that—estimates variations that I can only presume that you opposite do not support. So you don't support indexing the age pension, clearly. You don't support indexing JobSeeker. You don't support all of those areas which automatically happen to ensure that, when inflation is high, we are supporting people. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Since the Albanese government came to power, the cost of food is up nine per cent, the cost of housing is up 12 per cent, the cost of insurance is up 22 per cent and the cost of gas is up 27 per cent. With around 50,000 households due to exhaust their savings buffers by the end of next year due to record interest rates, how many Australians do you expect will lose their home under this government?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What Senator O'Sullivan doesn't say, of course, is that, for mortgage holders, interest rates started increasing under your government.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Sullivan</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Once!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Right, only once! Yeah, right! When inflation was at its highest, it was under your government. It was under your government. It's actually come off every quarter since, as we dealt with the significant policy issues and areas that your government, when in power, left unaddressed—for example, the energy crisis that we walked into, where Minister Bowen left the swearing-in ceremony to deal with the fact that the lights were going to go out because what had happened? That's right—a decade of failure to deal with those significant challenges. And we see it everywhere. We see it in housing. You talk about housing. The Commonwealth wasn't interested in housing unless it was about young people ransacking their super to go and buy a house.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Sullivan</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order on relevance: in the seven seconds remaining, I'm wondering if the minister could return to the final part of my question, which was: how many Australians do you expect will lose their home this year?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is directly relevant. Minister Gallagher?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've finished my answer.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Indigenous Protected Areas</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Minister Gallagher. The government's first legislative change following the referendum is the offshore worker safety bill, in which schedule 2, part 2, gives the Minister for Resources the power to silence First Nations voices who are fighting to protect their sea country, including sea country that might be part of the Indigenous protected areas, the IPAs. Australia also signed the high seas treaty in September last year, which sets out new obligations regarding marine protected areas on the high seas. My question is: are areas of sea country in IPAs exempt from offshore leases, and will they be included in any protected areas established or managed under the high seas treaty?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Cox for the question about the offshore gas safety legislation. We've certainly, I think, had feedback from a whole range of organisations, including environmental organisations and First Nations groups, along with the industry, who have told the government that our system of consultation is not working, which is why we are developing those amendments to the legislation. There will be further amendments, as I understand it, that will be moved in the House. We need to make sure that those regulatory changes will be consistent with our national environmental laws.</para>
<para>I think this is probably a question better asked of the Minister for Resources rather than the Minister for Indigenous Australians. But we are aware, certainly in the consultations around this bill, of feedback from First Nations groups, and ministers, including the Minister for Resources, Minister King, have been doing the consultations around that legislation. So my advice is that there will be no changes to rigorous environmental assessments, no environmental standards will be watered down and there will be no fast track for offshore projects, but this bill will allow some reform to improve the safety of offshore gas workers and to fix the broken community consultation process on offshore projects where we have had feedback from those numerous stakeholders, including First Nations groups.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What's the point in having these protected areas if the government will not commit to protecting these areas from the drilling, against the wishes of First Nations people, in Indigenous protected areas? That's why it's to this minister.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure whether senators have been aware of it, but there have been amendments moved in the House to better capture the government's longstanding intention to maintain the integrity of our environmental and community protection regime. I'll just refer you back to my earlier answer, where I said that the bill—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just on a point of relevance, I was asking directly about the Indigenous protected areas, which are the responsibility of the Minister for Indigenous Australians.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Your original question went to a part of a bill, so I do believe the minister is being relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My advice has been that the bill does not change the legal requirements for offshore consultation in any way, shape or form, so I think that does answer that question. There'll be no changes to rigorous environmental assessments, no environmental standards will be watered down and there will be no fast track for offshore projects involved or covered by this legislation. There have been some amendments moved which I think better capture that focus, and there are the consultations that Minister King has done to date.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is this government ignoring the wishes of First Nations people, who are fighting to protect their sea country, and refusing to remove schedule 2 part 2 of this offshore workers safety bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government doesn't ignore anybody or any stakeholder. In fact, we have made it part of our government's priority to consult across the board and to consult widely on legislation and policies, because this government is about bringing people together, not dividing them. We are a very different government to the one that came before us and very different to the opposition that sits there and opposes everything—no new ideas, negativity all the way.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Rennick</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Get her a violin.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is strange, I accept, Senator Rennick, because you're not a great bringer-together of people, but this is the approach that we take here. We want to consult with people.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just waiting for order across the chamber. Senator Scarr.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A personal reflection, President.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I'm sure that Senator Gallagher will withdraw if Senator Rennick wishes her to, but I don't think he markets himself as the consensus guy. I thought it was in good nature, but, if the senator wishes Senator Gallagher to withdraw, I'm sure she will.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw. I was responding to the interjections that were occurring, but I withdraw. But we don't ignore stakeholders on projects. The approach we take is that ministers work with stakeholders. If there are areas where we disagree, we explain why we disagree, but, on this one, Minister King is leading those consultations.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender Equality</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Women, Senator Gallagher. I note the minister recently launched <inline font-style="italic">Working for </inline><inline font-style="italic">w</inline><inline font-style="italic">omen: a </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">trategy for </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ender </inline><inline font-style="italic">e</inline><inline font-style="italic">quality</inline><inline font-style="italic">, </inline>which identified a number of areas of focus, including women's safety, sharing and valuing paid and unpaid care work, women's leadership and women's economic equality. I also understand that the Albanese Labor government will make a submission to the Fair Work Commission's 2023-24 annual wage review recommending that wages don't go backwards. Given that women are disproportionately represented in low-paid and award-reliant jobs, how will the government's submission advocate for these women workers in our economy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Payman for the question and for the amount of work she's already done, in her career as a young senator, in advocating on behalf of low-paid and women workers across Australia, particularly in WA. Women are disproportionately represented in low-paid and award-reliant jobs, and we don't want to see women go backwards in what they earn. Despite the recent improvement in the gender pay gap, there remains a substantial disparity in earnings between men and women, and we are committed to continuing to work to close this gap.</para>
<para>The government is doing its job in making structural reforms that allow women to get a better deal out of the economy. Our submission to the annual wage review sticks up for the millions of Australian women who want a better deal in their pay packet each week. Analysis in our submission shows that there is still work to do to lift women's labour force participation; that increases in the minimum wage are likely to decrease gender pay gaps and increase the incentive for women to enter the workforce or to work more hours than they currently do; and that increases to minimum and award wages provide income boosts for those most likely to be in less secure employment, such as casual employees and multiple job holders—that's also where a lot of women find their employment.</para>
<para>Labor's secure jobs, better pay reforms put gender equality front and centre in the Fair Work Commission's considerations, and, through those reforms, gender equality has been added to minimum wage and modern award objectives. As everyone in this place knows, women's economic equality is a core priority for this government. We'll continue to advocate for women's economic equality in all that we do, in all of the policy work and decisions that we take through the budget process.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Payman, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note the Albanese Labor government has announced several measures to deliver structural reform to the economy to help women get a better deal. How does the government's Working for Women strategy, released earlier this month, set the scene for the submission that the government will make to the Fair Work Commission later this week?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Payman for the question. Working for Women does build on the work that we've already done, as Senator Payman points out. It tells us that we won't achieve equality for women without structural changes across multiple policy areas, because we know that women's experiences aren't siloed: women's safety is not disconnected from economic security and equality; the gender pay and earnings gaps are not separate from the significant caring role that women play in our community; the low pay of feminised industries, especially in the care sector, links to how we as a community value care work and value and respect women and the work that they do; and women's leadership and representation in decision-making is directly connected to designing and implementing policies that work for women. This is serious and important work for which Labor has a clear plan and a clear and ongoing commitment.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Payman, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is clear that the Albanese Labor government is working hard for all Australians, including Australian women. How will the upcoming budget and the initiatives the government has already announced deliver a better deal for Australian women? And why is it so important to have women in positions of leadership to deliver these important reforms?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Payman for that question. We do have a plan. We here are proud members of the first federal government to have a majority of women members, and that does ensure that gender equality is not a fight that we have in our party room.</para>
<para>Everybody understands that there is work to be done and that we need to address it using the levers of government. We've been doing that by publishing employer gender pay gaps; by expanding PPL to 26 weeks; through our tax cuts, whereby 90 per cent of women will get a bigger tax cut; through the $4.7 billion for our cheaper childcare plan; by expanding parenting payment single; by reforming our workplace relations system to make it work better for women; through our plan to end violence against women and children; through all the work we're doing in the health space; through our gender-responsive budgeting; and, of course, through our gender-equal cabinet and government, in which we have women sitting around the table, listening to women and being united in getting on with working for women. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Migration</title>
          <page.no>42</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs and the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Senator Watt. Minister, what is the number of homes required to house the 549,000 people who arrived on permanent visas in 2023? How many houses?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Roberts, for your question. I know you asked a very similar question last week, and, as I pointed out to you last week, it is understood and expected that migration levels in Australia have peaked, that they peaked in 2022-23, and they are forecast to drop in half by next year. That is as a direct result of the changes made by the Albanese government to particularly to tackle the rorts that were occurring in the international student visa system that we inherited from the former government. The changes we made late last year are already having a significant and immediate impact, with student visa grants down by more than 35 per cent on last year's level.</para>
<para>We are obviously strong supporters of the international education system. It's a very important export industry for Australia. It provides a wide range of benefits to Australia and the countries from which students come. But the reality is that the system unfortunately was being rorted by a number of companies and that needed to be tackled. It wasn't tackled by the former government, but we are tackling it and that is having an effect.</para>
<para>Senator Roberts, one of the things I also pointed out to you last week was that it's a little bit ironic getting a question from a One Nation senator, a coalition senator or, at times, a Greens party senator about what this government is doing about housing numbers, because what we have seen over and over again is a coalition between the Liberals, the Nationals, One Nation and the Greens party teaming up to block action on housing by the Albanese Labor government. We saw it with the Housing Australia Future Fund. Senator Roberts, if you were actually sincere in your concern, you would have voted for the Housing Australia Future Fund to build more homes. If you were sincere in your concerns, you would be voting for the help-to-buy legislation that we're currently trying to get through this parliament but which is being blocked again by the Greens party, One Nation, the Liberals and the Nationals.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what is the number of schools and hospitals required over the next five years to meet the needs of these 549,000 new permanent arrivals last year? How many schools and hospitals—a number, please?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It obviously stands to reason that Australia does need more hospitals and more schools in order to deal with a growing population, whether that be a population growing through natural increase or a population growing through migration. Again, Senator Roberts, we are trying to tackle 10 years of underinvestment by a coalition government in our health system and in our education system. That's why Minister Jason Clare has only just recently reached agreements with a number of states and territories to increase education funding to them and why, through National Cabinet in the last few months, the Prime Minister has reached agreements with the premiers about increased funding for health care across Australia.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Henderson!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We know that 10 years of coalition government, propped up by One Nation, saw underinvestment in health care, underinvestment in hospitals, underinvestment in our schools—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, I called for order and I called you personally. I would ask you to come to order and stop being disrespectful.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, one of these days you and your colleague, Senator Hanson, might like to back in a government that's actually delivering on health and education. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, planning for immigration requires planning for the houses, schools, hospitals, transport, food and drinking water that new arrivals need. We won't let you dump 2.3 million long-stay arrivals on the states and then wash your hands of them. This is the second time this sitting I've asked for the numbers and the second time you have failed to provide them. If you have them, please provide them. If you don't have them then clearly this government is not up to the job of running Australia.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, for starters, I would take issue with your description of migrants as people who are dumped on the community. I think that is an offensive way to describe the contribution of millions of Australians who come from a migrant background.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not funny, Senator Roberts. It's not funny to talk about dumping people or people being dumped.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll come to you, Senator Roberts. Minister, when answering the question, please direct your answers to the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Roberts</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order: I'm not laughing at immigrants; I am laughing at the minister.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, that's not a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think that is especially the case now that I think the figures are approximately one in two Australians are either born overseas or their parents are born overseas. We know migrants make a great contribution to our country. The reality is, though, that as a result of the increase in migration after the pandemic and as a result of the rorts in the international student system that were left behind by the coalition, action did need to be taken, and that is what we're doing. But what we're also doing is investing in the houses that Senator Roberts and his colleagues in the Liberal-National Party and, most of all, the Greens party want to keep blocking. If you want more housing, there is a really simple thing you can do: vote with Labor for more housing, instead of always opposing it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. Last year when asked whether or not the Albanese government would reduce the fuel tax credit for off-road use, Senator Watt responded:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I can confirm that this government has no intention whatsoever of getting rid of it. I recognise that the Grattan Institute has made that suggestion, but we have categorically ruled it out, both I and the Prime Minister.</para></quote>
<para>He also said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… touching the diesel fuel rebate is not on this government's agenda. We are not considering it. We are not working on it.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, can you confirm that this remains the position of the Albanese government on the diesel fuel rebate, and can you emphatically rule out any changes to negative gearing under this government in the same way that your colleague Senator Watt was able to on the diesel fuel rebate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We are in that time of the festival of parliament, the festival of democracy, where we head towards budget and it is the 'rule in, rule out' game on every front. This is where you start generating, whirring up, going to that scare-campaign slot-machine, putting your coins in and rehashing all the campaigns that you love to scare the community with. You can be absolutely guaranteed that all the decisions that we take in the budget will be in the best interests of Australia. We have made it clear the areas where we have been focusing on tax reform—very significant changes that were made to the former tax plan on stage 3, where we have ensured that 100 per cent of taxpayers get a tax cut. That will be in the budget. We have made it clear that we are clamping down on multinationals through tax reform. Those changes are before the Senate. The petroleum resource rent tax: those changes are before the Senate. High-balance super accounts: those changes are before the Senate. That has been the area of focus for us in tax reform. That's a considerable amount of tax reform, I would say, that is before this parliament and that we are dealing with.</para>
<para>The other area of focus for the budget is doing what we can to continue to ease cost-of-living pressures for Australians and their households. Of course the tax cuts will go part of the way to supporting that. That will be a significant part of the budget. We have announced that we are doing super on PPL; again, that's a significant change and a significant investment but one that we think is important. There'll be significant investments in Defence. And I think I have outlined those areas where we have focused our energy on tax reform. So I would say to Senator Smith, I know what this is all about: the 'rule in, rule out' game. I have been clear about the areas of focus for us on tax reform. They are either before the parliament or have passed the parliament.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Dean Smith, first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, can you provide a clear assurance that your government will not seek to make changes to the capital gains tax in the upcoming budget?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the Treasurer has already done that. He has made it clear that that area you raise is not in the areas of focus for the government. Our focus has been on getting wages moving, making sure that people earn more and then, through our tax changes, that they are able to keep more of what they earn. We are continuing to support the energy transition and how that occurs across the economy. Then there is the work we're doing in aged care, the work we're doing in health care and the work we're doing in early childhood education. They are all key areas of focus. Rebuilding and reinvesting in Medicare is another key area of focus for this government. All of our effort is going into managing the economic circumstances of the time, making sure we're not adding to the inflation challenge, so that we continue to see inflation moderate and so that where we can find room in the budget we are paying down debt. Our interest bill is enormous; we are managing that and making sensible investments where we can to make a difference to the lives of Australian people.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Dean Smith, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, after ruling out changes to superannuation, you doubled the tax on super for Australian retirees. After ruling out changes to franking credits, your first budget included increased taxes on franking credits. After ruling out changes to stage 3 tax cuts, you broke your promise. How can you seriously believe Australians would trust a word that you'd say about taxes or any other policy matter?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian people trust governments that front up and explain the decisions they're taking. Where we did change our position on stage 3—which I should say is actually your policy now, Senator Smith, as you voted to support it—you front up and explain what has led to this change and why the circumstances have meant that you have decided on this change, and you be upfront about it. Certainly, in all of the discussions we have, whether with stakeholders or with constituents across our communities, that is the approach the government has taken.</para>
<para>I can tell you: when we are looking at our budget and putting together our budget, we're repairing the damage that we inherited. We're paying down debt. We've delivered the first surplus in 15 years. We're making room for important investments—investments that were overlooked for a decade, including on the energy transition and the concept that it even needs to happen that you opposite are still struggling with. We're doing all of those things.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Koalas</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, Senator Wong. Minister, native forest logging is destroying critical habitat and pushing our endangered animals to the brink. Land clearing is destroying the homes of our iconic koala. An area of forest the size of the MCG is logged and bulldozed every two minutes. Wildlife like the koala, the swift parrot, the greater glider and the northern quoll are hurtling towards extinction due to the destruction of their native habitat. Every time more forest is logged, more native wildlife die. Will the government's new environment laws put a stop to the destruction of koala habitat?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson-Young, for that question. I will give you an answer now as far as I am able, and then in relation to the last point, which is I think a point about koala habitat, I've just asked for some further information on that. Obviously, I understand it's the position of the Greens political party to ban native forest logging under federal law. The government's position is that Australia still needs timber products, and therefore we would want to see a sustainable end to the forestry industry. The government is investing over $300 million to modernise timber manufacturing infrastructure, to build the skills of the workforce and to grow more plantations, which already account for around 90 per cent of the national timber production.</para>
<para>But the senator is right; native forests are valuable for many reasons—obviously, carbon storage being one. They're native habitats, including for endangered animals like koalas, Leadbeater's possums and greater gliders. And there are economic benefits from protecting native forests. The minister is clear that she is committed to reforming environmental laws. These laws do not work for the environment, and they don't work for business. As part of the Nature Positive Plan, native forest logging will be regulated by national environmental laws through national environmental standards.</para>
<para>In relation to threatened species, the senator would also note that the minister has announced a target of zero new extinctions, the investment of over $500 million to better protect threatened plants and animals and protecting an extra 40 million hectares of Australia's ocean and bush.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How will the government's commitment to zero new extinctions be met if you continue to destroy the homes of these animals?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, the government's view is that Australia still needs timber products and wants sustainable forestry jobs. That is why we have a very substantial investment in modernising the timber manufacturing infrastructure, building the skills of the forestry workforce and growing more plantations, which already account for around 90 per cent of national timber production. That's a substantial increase over the last few years. This is a substantial investment. I appreciate the Greens political party wants a banning of native logging in Australia. As I previously said in this place, I've travelled a reasonable amount, particularly in the countries of South-East Asia, and I've never understood why it is progressive policy to believe that we should source timber from countries which don't have the same level of environmental regulation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the drug dealers defence is hardly worth commenting on in this argument. How much more native forest must be logged and how many more koalas must die before enough is enough?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You called it a drug dealer's defence. Some of us have actually spent a lot of time in South-East Asia and in the forests of South-East Asia and are aware of the—when we, in this country, don't use any timber other than plantation timber then there's a discussion to be had. The reality is we still use timber products. What we need to do is make sure we have a sustainable industry and we continue to increase plantations, which have increased substantially over the last 20 years, as you know, both in acreage but also in the proportion of the industry. But I will push back on the assertion about drug dealers. It is a reasonable proposition to say we live in a global economy and we ought to be trying to ensure the environmental protections occur everywhere— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>45</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Wong. In this morning's <inline font-style="italic">Age</inline> newspaper I read that large investors and super funds are increasingly willing to fund renewable energy projects but have little desire to look at nuclear power. Can the minister explain why the Albanese Labor government, as well as businesses and investors, is backing renewables? What are the key concerns about nuclear energy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Smith, for that question. Since we were elected, she and other members of this government have worked to stabilise the energy market, to provide electricity bill relief to those who need it most and to help Australia's energy transition. The article that Senator Smith refers to looks at data from an annual survey released by the Investor Group on Climate Change. That data shows that since the Albanese Labor government has improved policy certainty and regulatory certainty, guess what? Confidence is rallying. The confidence of investors has rallied.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash has been interjecting since I started speaking. Those opposite really can't bear the fact that they destroyed policy certainty in this market by having in excess of 20 policies over 10 years. The same report also found that, on the list of technologies investors were looking at, guess what was last? Nuclear power. Now, for anyone actually interested in facts or evidence this doesn't come as a surprise, because nuclear energy would increase bills, would cost taxpayers billions, risk reliability of the grid and won't be delivered on time. What a wonderful policy. Those opposite continue to cling to their nuclear fantasy. This morning the <inline font-style="italic">SMH</inline> published an article entitled 'Not in my backyard: Liberals, Nationals go cold on nuclear.' It detailed how 12 opposition MPs had publicly backed nuclear energy but refused to commit to hosting a nuclear power plant in their own electorates. That shows the courage of their convictions, doesn't it? Even Mr O'Brien won't back a power station in his electorate. They have no plan. They delivered nothing in government, and they still have no plan.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for that response. How is the Albanese Labor government setting up the clean, cheap, reliable and resilient energy network while also working to stabilise the energy market now?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This government took action to shield Australian families and businesses from the worst of the global energy price spikes. Our energy price relief rebates rolled out to more than five million households, lowering bills by hundreds of dollars while also lowering inflation. The draft default market offer maximum price that customers can be charged under standard contracts is stabilising and trending downwards.</para>
<para>Let's remember who voted against the price relief package. Who has opposed every step the government, these senators, have taken to try to work with Australians to help Australians who are facing high energy bills because of global markets? Those opposite opposed us every step of the way. We are delivering the Rewiring the Nation, the Expanded Capacity Investment Scheme and the gas code, and the Energy Market Operator says this is the lowest cost way to deliver a secure and reliable grid overcoming decades.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for that response as well. Whatever energy experts said about the Albanese Labor government's approach to deliver a clean, cheap, reliable and resilient energy system?</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! May I invite all of those interjecting before I have even called the minister to make your contribution at some other time, but not question time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Albanese government's energy plan is supported by independent advice from the CSIRO and the Australian Energy Market Operator. The plan of those opposite is supported by whom? That plan, supported by Senator Rennick and Senator Callaghan, is designed to placate all of those who, for 10 years, stopped any action on climate change by a coalition government. The work we are doing is supported by businesses and investors alike. I think we have all lost count of how many energy policies those opposite have had, but it is certainly over 20. The reality is that the opposition have nothing positive to offer the country. They just say no and they oppose everything. We on this side are here to get things done and we will—and we are.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cybersecurity</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Earlier this month, the United States House of Representatives passed a bill that would require ByteDance—a Beijing headquartered company subject to the control of China's Communist Party—to divest control of TikTok to make the app safer for US users. Will our government commit to similar legislation in Australia if the bill passes the US Congress?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to that matter and the issue of the security of Australians, including online, I can assure you that the government will always consider very carefully the advice of security agencies and experts and will act accordingly. The question asked whether we would look at a bill in another jurisdiction and act on that basis. Of course, we will take into account what others are doing—and there is legislation which would have an effect on the company, on TikTok, as you say—but, obviously, we will make policy in Australia considering the Australian circumstances. I would note that, as a consequence of government consideration of this, that particular platform is regulated in terms of whether or not it is on government devices. The senator would be aware of that, and I think he was part of the discussions about that. We always consider very carefully the advice provided by national security agencies on this matter and all matters.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Paterson, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Does the government share the concerns of our counterparts in the United States that a company that can be legally compelled to cooperate with Chinese intelligence agencies and to keep that cooperation a secret poses significant surveillance and foreign interference risks to Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, on this security matter, as on all security matters, we will take advice from agencies. I would again make the point that we've taken strong action to restrict access to TikTok on devices that handle sensitive data, in line with advice from intelligence and security agencies. I think it was in April last year that we issued a direction restricting the use of TikTok on government devices. Obviously, we will monitor the bill in the United States.</para>
<para>More broadly, we are concerned about the amount of data collected by social media platforms. We are concerned about the possibility of foreign interference on those platforms. We are concerned about disinformation on those platforms, and we've seen a lot of inaccurate information becoming much more prevalent in our democracy over the period of these last couple of years, and I think all of us need to guard against that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Paterson, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is right. In April last year the Albanese government finally decided to ban TikTok from Commonwealth issued devices, almost a year after the coalition originally called on them to do so, and after all of our Five Eyes partners and many other nations had already acted. Will the Albanese government commit to action to address the national security risks presented by TikTok and ensure that Australia is not again left behind?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think that was Senator Paterson delivering his own report card, wasn't it? What I would say, Senator Paterson, is that you know we work through the advice from agencies very carefully. You would also know, given your role and your history, how a democratically elected government deals with the prevalence of disinformation online and the increased disinformation that we see. All of these issues are much more difficult and larger in scale now than they were three-to-five years ago. I would welcome continued bipartisan work together— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>47</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Housing and Homelessness, Senator Farrell. I hear regularly from constituents in my home state of Queensland about the challenges of finding a safe and affordable place to call home, including from essential workers struggling to find rentals close to their workplaces and young first home buyers finding it hard to enter the market. Can the minister outline how the Albanese Labor government's broad and ambitious housing agenda is working to deliver more homes for Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We know there are still too many Australians without a safe and affordable place to call home. That's why we have a broad and ambitious housing reform agenda to tackle the challenges we inherited after a decade of very little action from those opposite. We've committed more than $25 billion in new housing investments over the next decade and, unlike those opposite, we are working closely at all levels of government to deliver it.</para>
<para>We're supporting states and territories through: firstly, the $3 billion New Homes Bonus; secondly, the $500 million Housing Support Program; and, thirdly, the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund, which will build 30,000 new homes. There's also the National Housing Accord, which will help deliver 2,000 affordable homes in cooperation with states and territories. Homes are already being opened from our $2 billion Social Housing Accelerator, which will deliver another 4,000 new social homes.</para>
<para>Our Help to Buy shared equity scheme will also help boost supply through equity contributions of up to 40 per cent for new homes. Help to Buy is targeted at helping low- and middle-income Australians get into a home with just a two per cent deposit. It will give a leg-up into the homeownership dream to 40,000 Australian households and, importantly, it will help add to supply. It's the homes Australia needs for the Australians who need them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for his answer. It's encouraging to hear that the Albanese government is taking action and offering support to help ease the housing pressures on Australians right across the country. In regard to homeownership, can the minister update the Senate about the Albanese government's significant reforms to housing, including the Help to Buy scheme and what support the program has received from stakeholders?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Green for her first supplementary question. The Help to Buy scheme will give Australians a leg-up into the homeownership dream. Importantly it will help add to supply. It's not just us saying that. Master Builders have said, 'It will succeed in translating the strong demand for homes that is out there at the moment into newly built homes on the ground.' Even the Queensland LNP leader, David Crisafulli, said, 'Programs that allow equity like this are firmly in our focus.'</para>
<para>A government senator: Did he really?</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, apparently he said that. This support from industry and the Queensland LNP is fantastic, and we look forward to similar support from Mr Crisafulli's federal colleagues, who are sitting right over there.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that update, Minister. The Albanese Labor government is currently working to implement its plans to ease pressure on housing, help Australians to buy their first home and get more rental stock into the market. Can the minister outline any challenges to the passage of this vital assistance and how it will work to help more Australians buy their first home?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Green for her second supplementary question. Help to Buy will bring homeownership back within the reach of more Australians, many of whom are renting right now and waiting for that opportunity. But there are obstacles, and they are sitting right over there. Those opposite talk a big game, but then they come in here and they vote against more homes. The Liberals and the Greens teamed up to delay the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund by six months. Every time the Liberals vote against delivering homeownership help or building new homes and every time the Greens delay these reforms, they are voting against Australians who need them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>48</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Answers to Questions</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by ministers to questions without notice asked by Opposition senators today.</para></quote>
<para>What we saw today was more spin from the government in relation to wages and the economy from a government that isn't prepared to admit the reality of the situation. The reality of the situation that workers in this country know and understand is that the cost of living is going up and the value of wages isn't keeping up with it. The value of real wages is going backwards in this country. Before the election, this government promised an increase in real wages. They promised a lowering cost of housing. They promised a lower cost of living. They promised a $275 reduction in energy prices. None of those things is occurring, all because of government policy. It doesn't matter how much the Labor Party spin. It doesn't matter how much they talk about getting real wages moving. Actually, they don't say 'real wages'; they say 'getting wages moving again'—their tricky language. Australians understand the reality that they are going backwards. To quote a phrase from the Labor Party before the election, 'Everything is going up except your wages.'</para>
<para>They can roll out all the talking points they like. They can roll out the insults to people on this side of the chamber. They can do all of those things, but it doesn't change the reality for Australians that this is a government of broken promises. They can spin the situation, but Australians know that they are paying more tax now than they were paying when the Labor Party came to government. They can talk about the changes to the stage 3 tax cuts, but they forget to say that they, as the Labor Party and as a new government, allowed the low-income tax offset to expire. It was their decision in government. They were in charge of the Treasury bench when that occurred, so people are paying up to $1,500 more tax.</para>
<para>When it comes to how much tax people are paying, people—particularly those on low incomes—are actually paying more tax than they were when this government came to government. So it doesn't matter how much they spin, and it doesn't matter how they try and throw mud across to this side of the chamber; people understand that. They promised them, alongside the $275 reduction in energy prices, lower housing costs and a lower cost of living. None of those things is coming to fruition, and Australians know that. Australians understand that. They remember the promises, and they understand the reality of the fact that things are becoming more and more difficult.</para>
<para>They talk about building more houses. They're going to build fewer houses than were built in the last five years. They talk about the money that they're spending on energy cost relief. Only Labor could spend $1.3 billion to see power bills go up, when they promised a reduction of $275. They continually roll out the tricky language. They continually make reflections on those on this side of the chamber, but they're not prepared to actually be honest with the Australian people and talk about the facts. The facts are that things are not as they promised they would be before the election. Power prices have gone up, not down. Housing costs have gone up, not down. The cost of living is clearly going up, instead of down. And what do they do? They try to deflect the costs to the supermarkets. They deflect the blame to the supermarkets rather than dealing with the issue themselves.</para>
<para>Of course, all through this their policy is killing productivity, which the Reserve Bank said was critical to lowering the cost of living. The Reserve Bank also said that government policy wasn't shifting the dial. So if you're not doing something you're not helping. That's what the Reserve Bank said—government policy, in terms of inflation, doesn't shift the dial. So if you're not doing something you're not helping, and this government is not helping the Australian people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's interesting, as we approach the week leading to Easter, that, clearly, those opposite are running out of things to debate. How flat they were during question time today! It's really interesting to see the attitude that they come into this place with and the spin that they try to put on: that this government somehow isn't on the side of workers. Let me make it very clear for the record. Since we've come to government, we've put in a Fair Work Commission proposal every time to support the lowest paid workers in this country, time and time again. When those opposite were in government, do you think they ever put in a submission to support the lowest paid workers, to support a pay rise for the lowest paid people in this country? The answer is no; they did not. That was one of the very first things that the Albanese Labor government did when we first came into office. We've said time and time again that we want to get wages moving again, and we are. Real wages are now finally starting to come back. They are now coming back, ahead of schedule, because the government has been working very hard to reform the economy and make sure that people get to earn more and get to keep that extra money in their pockets. Annual wages grew at the end of last year for the first time in almost three years, and that is a very sad indictment on the legacy of those opposite, who left this government to mop up and fix up.</para>
<para>The most recent wage figures show that we had a 0.9 per cent rise in the wage price index in the December quarter, meaning that wages were 4.2 per cent higher for the year, the equal fastest annual growth since 2009. This is the first time since 2018 that we've seen three consecutive quarters of real wages growth—three consecutive quarters of real wages growth!—but we know that people are still under pressure. That is why the cost-of-living tax cuts are so important, and that is why the government has been working very hard to introduce other relief measures in this place. The irony is that those opposite keep saying no. They keep coming into this place and voting against what I think are very moderate changes that will help people deal with the cost-of-living pressures.</para>
<para>We also remember that it was a deliberate design feature of the previous government's policy to keep wages down. The irony is that they now come in here trying to have a crack at this Labor government, who are working very hard to reverse a decade of policy that the previous government had instituted to make sure that wages would not grow and that productivity would not grow. The Labor government, under the leadership of Anthony Albanese, Jim Chalmers and Katy Gallagher, is reversing those policies.</para>
<para>The other topic in question time was around fuel efficiency standards. I want to touch on this because this also goes to the heart of the cost of living in this country. It is also about giving people around the country and their families the option to choose vehicles that use less fuel. In fact, we're getting to a point where you may not actually need to use fuel but will simply use electricity, which will be much cheaper for people in the long run. That is another initiative where we would hope that those on the other side would actually come to the table and work with the Labor Party and the crossbench to try to keep the cost down for people at home.</para>
<para>Having much better fuel efficiency standards in this country will be good not just for the environment but also for people's hip pockets. Families who pay around $5,000 a year in fuel costs will look at savings of around $1,000 a year and $17,000 over the life of the vehicle.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Sullivan</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How much more expensive will the cars be?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There will be many choices. Implementing the new vehicle efficiency standards will create greater choice for people in this country. They will include utes. They will include vehicles that will be able to tow boats. There will be a bigger range of vehicles in this country. The sad indictment is that Australia and Russia are the only two countries in the developed world that do not have these standards in place. It is amazing that somehow those in the rest of the world don't have utes. They don't have vehicles that tow big boats, but guess what? They also have the same standards that we're trying to implement here in this country. People will save money. They will have cheaper vehicles. They will have vehicles that will be much more efficient and better for the environment. Quite frankly, it is a win-win situation. I'm surprised those opposite won't support the package.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise to take note of answers to questions from coalition senators to ministers, which today predominantly went to issues around the cost of living. As a South Australian, I was driving through South Australian country areas recently and hearing from people running businesses about the impact of the rises of electricity prices that they have had to bear. I do note that AGL and Origin, as two of the main providers, indicated last year that they would be providing to people increases of 29.8 per cent. And so, whilst there has been a flurry of announcements recently about the wholesale cost perhaps coming down, the reality is that what people pay from their hip pocket, whether they are a residential property owner or a business over, has been going up. Far from the $275 reduction which was promised by the Albanese government prior to the last election, the lived experience of people is that the cost of living is going up and power is just one of the things going up.</para>
<para>The point that was really telling today was the comments from the minister that the coalition senators should be supporting more of the policies that have been put forward by President Biden. In this energy space, I would actually say that the government should be supporting more of the policies that were put forward by Mr Biden. For those of you who aren't aware, under the Inflation Reduction Act the US is committed to significantly increasing the amount of nuclear power generation they have in the country. Why? It is because it will provide cheaper and more reliable energy, which they need for both national and economic security and to lower the cost of living and inflationary pressures on the American people.</para>
<para>Just recently, at the start of this month, in Belgium there was a conference where 32 nations from around the world came together to give effect to the pledge that was made in COP 28. The pledge was to triple the amount of nuclear energy in the world, and the US representative, representing the Biden Administration there, highlighted that, for them, that would mean they would have to increase—and they are planning to increase—the amount of nuclear generation by 200 gigawatts of new capacity. So Australia is increasingly becoming an outlier in the global scene when it comes to energy, and the rhetoric from Minister Bowen is quite out of step. World leaders of a range of countries who were there—and I might note that we were actually mentioned at that conference; the Prime Minister of Belgium, who was a co-host of the conference, highlighted that every continent is president except for Australia.</para>
<para>Here we have the energy minister essentially making up or selectively choosing facts to try to win his argument. He recently ridiculed the quite consistent and well-researched plan that the coalition has on this matter. Mr Ted O'Brien, who is our spokesperson, has been diligently meeting energy ministers and industry around the world in various countries that employ nuclear power, so we can understand: why; what the cost basis is; and what the impact is in terms of safety, reliability and cost. Instead we have Mr Bowen selectively picking facts to try to say that it's going to take 19 years to build a reactor. He selectively picked some facts between 1991 and 2022 to come up with that figure, but even the ABC, doing a fact check, said the reality is that, in 2023-24, two reactors have come online that took only 10 years to build, and the long-term average, if you didn't select that particular window, is 8.8 years.</para>
<para>So we have a government that can't keep their promises on the $275 reduction. They don't recognise the cost impact and the fact that there's been a 60 per cent increase for Australian families who have had to go under hardship provisions because they're unable to pay their electricity bills. That's putting businesses under pressure. For ideological reasons, the government continue to refuse to engage in an open debate about technology that multiple nations around the world have committed to increasing because it's cheaper, more reliable and good for the environment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I'll draw the Senate's attention to Senator Cadell's question, which was, effectively, 'When will Minister Bowen listen to the concerns about our vehicle efficiency standards?' I'd say that a cursory check would advise him that there was a consultation which has closed very recently and that, at the close of that, the minister will consider all of that feedback. I think he has been quite clear about that. There's a very interesting concept that isn't well versed for those opposite—let's be clear about that—which is the idea of meaningful consultation. Meaningful consultation is something which is vitally important to us in the Labor government. It's something that we strive to ensure happens. It's an opportunity for people to provide input and also for us to listen. And where there are sensible suggestions that go to the intent of our policy then, yes, we will listen and we're open to changes. That's what good government does; it listens to ideas, considers them in the context of what it's trying to achieve and then takes on board what does that.</para>
<para>The minister is working really closely with the industry at getting this outcome. The intent here is quite simple, and my colleague, Senator Ciccone, was very clear about that. The idea is to provide a greater choice of cheaper and cleaner-to-run vehicles. This isn't just about emissions reduction, it's also about the cost of living. It's also about the cost for someone to own a vehicle. We have to stop being the world's dumping ground here. Only Australia and Russia don't have vehicle efficiency standards; we're at the back of the pack. We have totally languished at the back of the pack under the decade of Liberal-National government. This was a government that was neglectful at best, in terms of how it looked towards the future for this country, leaving us as an absolute dumping ground.</para>
<para>But who is surprised? This seemed to be the case across every policy area we could possibly point a finger at. For all the scaremongering that's going on, and the misinformation, the United States has had these efficiency standards in place for 50 years. There is no evidence from there or any other country—the multitude of other countries which have these standards in place—to say that this is going to lead to an increase in the cost of vehicles to consumers. In fact, it would deliver $108 billion in fuel savings to Australians by 2050. And, once this policy is fully implemented, the average new car buyer would cut their annual fuel costs by about $1,000. If that isn't going to assist in terms of the cost of living then I don't know what is! That's going to make a fundamental difference to people.</para>
<para>We know that Australians have been feeling cost-of-living pressures for a long time now. As I've said in this chamber before, the cost-of-living crisis did not start in May 2022; every last statistic or report that anyone would like to pull out will evidence that. It isn't an overnight sensation and it isn't something that just occurred. This has been building for a while, for a range of reasons. But we're delivering targeted cost-of-living relief in a way that will not increase inflation, because to increase inflation is only to make the problem worse.</para>
<para>Under the Labor government, every single taxpayer is going to get a tax cut. We made significant changes to the stage 3 tax cuts and developed the Albanese Labor government tax cut, which will deliver significantly for every single taxpayer across this country. In fact, in my home state of South Australia, that tax cut is going to be larger for 89 per cent of the people in my home state and I'm really, really proud about that. It's going to make a fundamental difference.</para>
<para>We have also introduced cheaper child care and we've made it easier to access health care. Overall, Australians are estimated to have saved $15 million in GP fees in November and December alone. The scaremongering and misinformation from those opposite need to stop.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The fundamental issue with this fuel efficiency standard change that Minister Bowen is trying to push onto Australian consumers and vehicle providers and manufacturers across this country is that it is taking away their choice. Senator Wong, in her contribution in answer to Senator Cadell's question, refuted that point. The problem is that Australians are choosing to drive larger vehicles—maybe they're tradies and they need them to be able to go about their job or maybe they just like recreation opportunities over the weekend or on holidays—and there is no equivalent vehicle to transition to. Battery technology is not going to provide the energy density that's required to ensure that a vehicle of that class can take the demand that's placed on these vehicles. In terms of towing and ensuring that you can carry the loads that are required by those vehicles, there is no EV equivalent. Until we get hydrogen, synthetic fuels or biofuels to a level where they're affordable, it is not possible.</para>
<para>The date of 1 January is the problem that the vehicle manufacturing industry is pointing to. We cannot transition the fleet that quickly, so there will be no choice available for people. They won't be able to choose. Unless Minister Bowen wants to say to Australians that they need to change their job or change their lifestyle and move to a smaller passenger vehicle, he needs to slow down a bit. That's what we're asking him to do and that's what motor vehicle manufacturers are asking him to do as well. They don't have vehicles available that those people can transition to. They're simply not there.</para>
<para>I hope Senator Ciccone, as a Victorian, is engaging with the $13 billion caravan manufacturing industry in his home state. Right there in Campbellfield, Senator Ciccone, are countless manufacturing businesses. The only vehicle manufacturers left in this country, as you would know, are caravan manufacturers. Jayco, Crusader—they're all there in your neck of the woods. I hope you're engaging with them on this issue. They are saying that there is no transitional vehicle that you can go to. People are going to have to pay up to $25,000 extra for a land cruiser that can tow a caravan. You can't tow the kind of big van that Australians want with an EV. You can't do it. There is no vehicle that is available to do it. You've got to give them choice.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Migration</title>
          <page.no>51</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (Senator Watt) to a question without notice I asked today relating to immigration.</para></quote>
<para>For three years, from 2020 to 2022, with the nation mostly out of work, we had an opportunity to catch up on social infrastructure: hospitals, schools, transport, water and housing. Instead, we paid money that could have been used to build those things to people to sit at home and not build those things. It was a trillion dollar wasted opportunity. With a new Labor government in power, the immigration floodgates then opened without the social infrastructure to accommodate the new arrivals. What's worse is that there are not enough land rezonings, building applications, approvals and starts to ever make a noticeable improvement in housing.</para>
<para>The Albanese government created a problem it cannot solve. Australia needs to get a refund on that plan we heard so much about from the Prime Minister in the last election because it's a dud. It's not up to the minister in his answer to blame the previous government repeatedly. For three years a so-called national cabinet of Liberal and Labor leaders ran the country, so failure is on both your hands. It's true that the neglect of social infrastructure goes back through 30 years of Liberal and Labor governments—the uniparty.</para>
<para>The message from the last two weeks of elections in Queensland and Tasmania is simple. Voters worked out the link between immigration and social infrastructure and voters are not happy. Voters are angry with Minister Watt and the Albanese government for creating a housing crisis that's rapidly escalated to now be a human catastrophe. The public are noticing the disparity between those benefiting from the property market and those falling behind. It now takes everyday Australians on a median salary up to 14 years to save for a deposit for their own home. The housing crisis the Morrison government started and the Albanese government multiplied is disenfranchising the young. The irony is that the Labor government—once, supposedly, the party of the workers—is making inequality of wealth far worse. Before the thread of social cohesion unravels in this country, this government must turn off the immigration tap and start building social infrastructure.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Indigenous Protected Areas</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Finance (Senator Gallagher) to a question without notice I asked today relating to offshore gas exploration.</para></quote>
<para>During the half day that we were relegated for the offshore worker safety bill, 18 of the 26 witnesses said that part 2, schedule 2 of this bill should be removed, because it compromises—it seeks to override and go around—the environmental approvals that exist in the EPBC by giving power to the resources minister. We have an Indigenous affairs minister who, in July last year, alongside assistant ministers and ministers from this place and the other, stood in front of First Nations people who were part of land and sea ranger programs and said: 'Here we are with the Indigenous protected areas. We are going to bolster them. We are going to give you more money. We are going to cover five million hectares of sea country to add to it'—and then we are going to strike a deal with the gas cartel of this nation and we're going to give them all the power via the resources minister to bypass any of the environmental approvals.</para>
<para>Senator David Pocock and I were in the room asking questions of the big gas companies of this nation and listening to the heartfelt evidence given by First Nations people. They were in tears and were telling us that they don't want those gas projects in their offshore sea country. They want to have the right to say no, because it affects their livelihood. Closing the Gap target 15 is very clear: by 2030 we should be increasing the connection to land and sea country—not removing it; not taking it away; not understanding tangible cultural heritage in this nation. We have already seen Juukan Gorge. This government accepted seven recommendations of the eight that were outlined in the <inline font-style="italic">Way forward</inline> report—that they would give us standalone cultural heritage protections.</para>
<para>The IPAs offer a small portion of that, yet today we didn't even get an answer around the fact that they would continue to be protected and that they were not going to be part of the offshore leases. The minister for resources flies around the world making sure that they are on offer to everybody else without the free and prior informed consent of First Nations people in this country. Delegations of First Nations people went from the Tiwi Islands to South Korea and Japan and told their governments that this government does not have their permission or their consent to sell off their offshore leases. That is the loophole. Do you know why? It is because we are not even considered 'relevant' people in the legislation. The government can stand up in the other place and say: 'Oh, nothing to see here; it's all above board. We're going to keep the legislation—just the status quo,' because we are not even considered relevant people as traditional owners of this country.</para>
<para>We continue to see the government bypass NOPSEMA, the independent regulator, and the consultation requirements. Then, to rub salt into the wound, the government started a three-year review under the department of the minister for resources and then pre-empted and brought in technical amendments. They didn't even wait. That three-year review started in January this year, and then there is NOPSEMA with another review—'But never mind; we'll just stitch up the blackfellas in this place and continue to silence their voices. We'll give them IPAs and we'll give them a grant and say they are doing wonderful ranger programs and are caring for country.' But all the while those 49 offshore leases in the Northern Territory are being sold off to the highest bidder. They are then going out and looking for the final investment decision.</para>
<para>The opposition should hang their heads in shame because they have been doing this for 50 years. For 50 years governments have been colluding against First Nations people but this government are even worse—standing, hand on heart, saying they want to implement the Uluru Statement from the Heart. You should be ashamed because now you are using the legislation of this place to silence our voices. No truth, we want treaty.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That general business order of the day no. 69, Competition and Consumer Amendment (Divestiture Powers) Bill 2024, be considered on Wednesday, 27 March 2024, at the time for private senators' bills.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If there is no objection, the business is postponed.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to the following senators:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Senator McGrath for today for personal reasons; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Senator Reynolds for 25 to 27 March 2024 on account of parliamentary business.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair and Transparent Elections Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to amend general business notice of motion No. 499.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I amend the short title of the Electoral Legislation Amendment (Fair and Transparent Elections) Bill 2024 to read Fair and Transparent Elections Bill 2024.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair and Transparent Elections Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1414" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair and Transparent Elections Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>55</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senators Waters, Lambie and Thorpe, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918</inline>, and for related purposes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the explanatory memoranda and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">The fairness and transparency of our elections underpins every issue addressed in this place.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We can't trust our politicians to make decisions about gambling harm if they are secretly beholden to gambling providers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We can't trust them to make decisions about climate if they are financed by fossil fuel companies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And if we don't know where their money is coming from, we don't have all the information we need before we decide who to trust with our vote.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In commerce we need competition to drive innovation and prevent big companies from using their market power to dominate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In politics we also need competition so if communities don't feel that their values or priorities are shared by their representatives, they can find a different representative.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We need diversity in politics so that it is actually representative of community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill lays out 12 reforms to improve transparency, reduce financial influence, level the playing field and provide fair representation for the Territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes have the broad support of the crossbench, democracy think tanks, civil society organisations and academics, some of whom are here in the chamber today.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms build on the work of many other crossbenchers, including the members for Mayo, Clark, Warringah and Indi and the Greens.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms are also likely to be supported by the one-third of Australians who didn't cast their primary vote for a major party last year and anyone who thinks transparency and a level playing field are good for democracy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The first five changes relate to the current lack of transparency. Over the last 20 years, only 21 per cent of major parties' private funding has been disclosed donations. We need to fix disclosure requirements and ban lies so voters can make an informed choice about their representatives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill proposes to lower the disclosure threshold from more than $16,000 to $1,000 and require disclosure within seven days.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill also proposes changes to broaden the gift definition and improve the so-called Transparency Register. This would mean that $14,000 dinners and $35,000 business roundtable subscriptions could not be hidden. It would also mean we could see exactly how much revenue the Labor Party earns from pokies. Over the last 20 years, 21 per cent of all private funding to the major parties came from undisclosed sources.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill bans lies in political ads, using the approach proposed by the member for Warringah. The 2016 'Mediscare' incident and the 2019 death tax incident showed that both major parties are guilty of this and Australians deserve better.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The next three changes are aimed at reducing financial influence. Australians worry that politicians make decisions for vested interests, not for all of us. We need to reduce financial influence so we trust governments to make decisions in the best interests of the country.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill proposes a major-donor cap, which is a cap set at 2% of the total amount of public funding at the previous election. Had this cap been in place at the 2022 election, the amount of money given in major donations would have reduced from over $200 million to about $83 million. It would have affected just four donors, and is therefore unlikely to be subject to any successful constitutional challenge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Donations from companies inflicting social harm should be banned. In 2022, gambling and alcohol companies contributed $2 million to major parties, including $19,000 from Sportsbet to Minister Rowland, who is in charge of regulating gambling, in the week of the election.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill also proposes banning donations from current or potential substantial government contractors. The big four accounting firms contributed $4.3 million in donations to major parties in the last 10 years. During this time, the value of their government contracts has increased by at least four times. Three-quarters of OECD countries don't allow these types of donations, and it's time Australia joined them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The remaining three changes are about levelling the playing field. In 2022, voters decided they wanted more political choice, with one-third casting their primary vote outside the major parties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's an uphill battle for community candidates, who face at least 13 party advantages and five incumbency advantages. Equalising some of these advantages would enable healthy political competition. It would also mean that parliamentarians are more likely to be representative of the diversity of the community, enabling more candidates from diverse cultural and socio-economic backgrounds.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, the bill proposes to limit government advertising before elections. The Coalition spent $31 million on its positive energy campaign before the last election, trying to convince us we weren't the worst OECD country on climate change. This was paid for by taxpayers. This was consistent with at least a doubling in government advertising before every election. Governments should not be able to use taxpayer funds to promote their party's achievements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill cleans up the postal voting process. Postal voting is an important part of our election process. But political candidates have been using this to harvest personal data and in many instances cause confusion.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also proposes setting up an independent campaign entity for independent candidates, to equalise access to voters and reporting dates between independents and parties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, and significantly, the bill addresses the unfair lack of democratic representation of the ACT and the Northern Territory.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">At present, the Territories are represented by just two senators each, a number that was set as part of a political deal in 1975. The deal had no real basis but was a political decision that effectively gave both major parties two additional Senators (one from each Territory).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Two Senators is not fair democratic representation for Territories. Increasing the number of Senators for the Territories allows greater opportunity for a more diverse representation, better reflecting the views of the people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's up to all of us to make it clear to government that we expect its response to incorporate these changes and not just entrench the two-party system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We must be able to see where the money comes from before elections. We must reduce financial influence that could skew the decisions of government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And we must have a level playing field so new representatives can emerge if that's what their communities want.</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
<para class="italic"><inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</title>
        <page.no>57</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A letter has been received from Senator Canavan:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose that the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor's heavy-handed market interventions, destructive industrial relations changes and secretive environmental protection and biodiversity conservation reforms are creating massive uncertainty in energy markets that Australians will pay for through higher prices and loss of industrial jobs.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Most Australians would be aware of the energy crisis afflicting this nation. They need only consult—and, ultimately, pay—their bills. I know that these days many people are, tragically, struggling to pay their bills. They understand that we're going through an absolute crisis in this country. Something is going massively wrong with our energy system when a country that is as blessed with natural energy resources as this one has among the highest energy prices in the world. This motion seeks to demonstrate to the Australian people that the reason for that is the heavy-handed red tape we've seen from this government that is stopping the extraction, the supply and the use of those abundant natural resources we have in this country, causing an increase in supply pressures, shortages and energy prices.</para>
<para>Over the term of just two years of this Labor government, we have seen unprecedented interventions and heavy-handed regulation of the gas sector. We've seen the rolling back of industrial relations to the 1970s, with the energy crises and strikes that we saw in those days, and we've seen a complete lack of transparency on changes to environmental laws and regulations which is freaking out investors who might otherwise be looking at Australia.</para>
<para>Last week we saw this highlighted, for all Australians, in two reports that came from government agencies. One of those reports was the gas supply outlook report produced by the Australian Energy Market Operator, and that report showed that, in the next few years, we could be facing the prospect of having to use diesel fuel in our nation's gas-powered electricity power stations. So we have all this gas—we've got enormous amounts of gas in this country. Gas is used for about 10 per cent of our power needs in Australia, and it's critical at peak times, critical when it's hot or when it's cold and energy use is at its highest. We need to have those gas-fired power stations to turn on and provide that additional bit of electricity. We're running out of so much gas in this country now that the prospect is we're going to have to chuck diesel fuel into these power stations to use. How is that good for the environment, if the diesel is effectively the most carbon intensive of all fuels? It's very, very expensive, so that will only put more upward pressure on prices.</para>
<para>This is happening because there has been a complete standstill on gas investment, as I mentioned. The government brought in these powers, unbelievable powers, that would allow a government minister to dictate to a gas company what they can charge, when they can produce, when they have to produce—the government can force them to drill and produce and sell at a price set by them. Obviously, anyone going into business or even thinking of starting a business probably wouldn't like the prospect of the government being able to tell you when you have to open your doors and how much you can sell your products for. That tends to chill investment. That tends to ward off people spending the hundreds of millions and sometimes billions of dollars necessary to extract those energy resources and make sure that we have enough gas to supply our power systems. So we have seen a freeze on gas investment across this landscape. There's a massive investment in western Queensland, in my state, proposed by Senex Energy. It could produce half of New South Wales's energy needs. It's completely held up at the moment. It was almost going to go ahead before these laws came in. Nothing has happened since on that project. This is why we're facing those gas shortages.</para>
<para>We're now seeing the government bringing in a whole new environmental regulation framework that they are designing in secrecy. They've made businesses and companies in this country sign non-disclosure agreements—I think they're the representative groups, I should say. They get taken into these back rooms and shown the laws that your taxpayer dollars have funded to write. We can't see them. The people can't see them. These large businesses and corporates and their representatives can see them, and they have to sign non-disclosure agreements. They can't take anything out; they can't take any photos, and we don't know what's in these, either.</para>
<para>Again, what's the message to any investors wanting to invest in Australian energy? They're not going to invest right now because they don't know what's going to end up in these laws. They don't know what's going to happen when the laws come into this sausage factory and the Greens get their claws into them. Again, it might completely stop and chill all types of investments. The simple fact is that, if we want lower electricity prices, if you want to pay less on your electricity bill, we have to use more of our natural resources and we need a government that is supportive of developing Australia's natural resources of coal, oil, gas and renewables of all types.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I look at this MPI and I see that 'destructive industrial relations changes' is one of the elements, and the loss of industrial jobs—it goes on to some other matters that Senator Canavan raised before. So I might just go to some of the points about these 'destructive industrial relations changes' because it always intrigues me. We've got one size fits all. Everywhere there's a change and a market regulation to give people more rights, to decrease fuel prices and to make the market more stable, whether it be in fuel and gas or in industrial relations, it's something that those opposite always seem to oppose.</para>
<para>I'm going to have a great deal of delight hearing some of the comments from the other senators as well, when we start looking at some of the views from people. I'll concentrate for a moment on Queensland. At a Rockhampton hearing on 31 October 2023, on closing loopholes, Mitch Hughes, the MEU acting district president, a miner of many years experience, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">When I started in the industry at Saraji, the majority of workers were employed directly through BMA. Now I estimate that at least at Saraji, that number is somewhere around 40 per cent of those directly employed at the worksite. Those workers not directly employed are also on terms and conditions of employment that are significantly less than those who are directly employed.</para></quote>
<para>I'm going to raise other views as well. Dwayne Arnold, a coalminer and labour hire worker who works at Anglo American's Grosvenor mine, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There's a big difference in pay rates between the permanent employees and labour hire workers like me. We get about $20 to $30 an hour less, even though we do the same work and labour hire workers are equally skilled and experienced.</para></quote>
<para>I will go to a couple of other pieces of evidence that were given during that inquiry up there in Rockhampton. The people in the local community know what the effect of regulation is. It means that you can actually turn around and start getting paid fair compensation for the work that's performed. We know that those opposite, the Liberals and the Nationals, are always for low pay. That's in their DNA. They've got to be for low pay, otherwise it's not worth saying or not worth voting against. They want to make sure that people get paid as little as possible, particularly in an industry that's receiving such large profits.</para>
<para>The Mining and Energy Union say they've appropriately taken the first steps on 'same job same pay' laws in a bid to rectify claimed pay gaps of $20,000 a year for labour hire workers at a Queensland coalmine. They go on to talk about substantial wage differentials in the Callide case and the need for workers who are doing the exact same work to get paid the exact same rates.</para>
<para>You need to start looking at locals and what they say—local community activists and people who are elected by the community to represent the interests of the community. At the inquiry in October 2023 that I was talking about before, Anne Baker, the mayor of Isaac Regional Council, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I'm the mayor of Queensland's largest resource region. We are a host to 28 active coalmines. We've lived with the consequences of labour hire practices in particular for well over a decade. … Unfortunately, what we live in—our lived experience and what we see in our region—is that labour hire practices are driving down our liveability for our community and our broader region. This is just not a debate for the workers themselves, the industry and the unions. There is a direct impact to our community's sustainability when these decisions are taken around casualisation and labour hire.</para></quote>
<para>When you start looking at all that, you then have to start looking at what's actually happened. Those opposite have been launching campaigns to talk about the big impact on the mining industry, but what they fail to do is talk about the fact that we have had a labour surge.</para>
<para>In the mining industry, a number of mines were sold by BHP. Brodie Allen, a coalmine worker at Blackwater mine, said that they've been able to turn around now and get paid the exact same rate that the direct hire workers get because they've been sold to another company which is smaller than BHP. They've got the increase, and BHP wouldn't have paid it. This is about highway robbery by these big miners, and those opposite are standing with them.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If we want to talk about what's causing uncertainty for energy workers, let's start with the coalition pretending for a decade that they could hide from the energy transition and that they could ignore the international science, the calls from within their own party and the calls from people on the street that an energy transition was coming. Instead, we had a decade of deceit and inaction, and the people paying for it are those energy workers. Like their fossil fuel donors, they have abandoned those communities. Instead, we have an ad hoc regime where, in some places, corporations are abruptly pulling out altogether, leaving a trail of devastation behind them.</para>
<para>The people of my hometown of Gladstone know all too well what happens when we let massive corporations drive decision-making. My community still bears the scars of multiple boom-and-bust cycles. That's the reality of burying your head in the sand to the reality of transition. It means not showing up for the community and leaving them to the whims of fossil fuel corporations. In Clermont, we saw the coalition just a few years ago fighting tooth and nail for Adani to set up shop under the promise of jobs for that community. But the reality is that those corporations do not care about those communities. In fact, right now we're watching Adani fight against having to employ a single local. This is the reality of how these polluting fossil fuel corporations operate.</para>
<para>It is well past due for the government and the coalition to fess up and be honest with those communities about their future and take proactive steps to help them in the energy transition to make sure that they are best placed to take up opportunities in renewable energy with high-paid and secure work. That's why I put a bill before this parliament for a National Energy Transition Authority that would make that a reality, because a national authority to lead the energy transition, driven by communities and workers, is critical as we see the writing on the wall with coal and gas.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to support Senator Canavan's motion, the matter of public importance that Labor’s heavy-handed market interventions, destructive industrial relations changes and secretive EPBC reforms are creating massive uncertainty in energy markets that Australians will pay for through higher prices and the loss of industrial jobs. Labor's environmental and energy policies are the fourth step of the four-step shuffle throughout their time in government, because this crisis has been decades in the making.</para>
<para>It started in the 1980s under the Hawke-Keating government with the Button plan. Former Labor senator John Button had this great idea that we would rationalise manufacturing, and by doing that he let manufacturing go offshore. Those jobs, of course, were replaced by the university sector that was heavily subsidised by the Australian taxpayer through the process known as HECS. Our young children were given loans like from a loan shark and they were promised that somehow if they went to university they'd come out and get a high-paying job at the end of it. The next step along the line was superannuation. Yes, it started out at 2 per cent in 1992 but it's gradually risen to 12 per cent.</para>
<para>The final step of course was this renewable energy target and the mandating of net zero, which is actually seeing our base-load energy—and I might add that when I finished school in the late 1980s, Queensland had the lowest energy prices in the world on the back of cheap, reliable coal powered energy as a result of Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen building coal-fired power stations and plonking them down on coalmines that were owned by the Queensland people. The Queensland people didn't have to buy the coal on the market; all they had to do was dig it up and burn it. That coal was exported to the other states as well. That cheap and reliable energy helped power our manufacturing sector and helped power our mining sector as well. For two decades, coal was Australia's biggest export, and that is what powered this country.</para>
<para>What we are seeing now as a result of these green policies designed ostensibly to protect the environment is that they are actually just destroying the environment. I've spoken about that many times before. They're also going to destroy the economy. Why? Because renewables are much more expensive. They have a shorter operating life. You're lucky to get 20 years out of solar panels and wind turbines. In fact, many wind turbines are lucky to last a few years. They cost a fortune to build. Then you have to build a lot more transmission lines because, rather than having, say, 20 coal-fired power stations down the east coast, you've now got hundreds and hundreds of smaller energy generators. Then you've got to have batteries to back up all of this energy because, as we know, the sun doesn't shine 24 hours a day. Of course we don't even talk about the whole recycling process; that's another environmental disaster waiting to occur.</para>
<para>All of this costs money and all of this drives up the cost of electricity. Not only is there the cost of renewables but also there is the cost of the subsidies for renewables. In order to continue the illusion that Labor loves to push that renewables are cheaper—and they are not cheaper—they are regulated through the renewable energy target that mandates that 33 terawatts of renewable energy has to be sold throughout the year. Thirty-three terawatts is about 23 per cent of our energy network. The sun shines for only six or seven hours a day, on a good day, throughout winter. If you have a few overcast days, on average you'd be lucky to see the sun shining 25 per cent of the time throughout the year. That means that, when the sun does shine, you've got to sell all that solar power at that time. Because there's an oversupply for six hours of the day, that solar is sold at a loss, and then those costs have to be recouped through the coal-fired power stations at night. That is driving up the cost of energy. When you drive up the cost of energy, you drive up the cost of manufacturing. It makes manufacturing more expensive in this country, and it sends manufacturing jobs offshore. So I urge you to support this motion today.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do find this matter of public importance on energy quite surprising. When they put up a motion like this one, I do think it shows that there is a lack of self-reflection by those opposite. I wonder how much thought goes into it. I say that because, in terms of all these matters that they raise as being matters of public importance, they actually have a record in relation to these matters from when they were in government two years ago. Before they put forward such motions, do they not actually think about what their record was and the consequences for the Australian people? It is a record that deserves to be highlighted, and it is a record that I believe was a key determinant in why people rejected them at the last election and sent them into opposition.</para>
<para>Let's consider the elements of this matter of public importance and highlight the previous government's record in regard to this. Let's talk about industrial relations and the low wages that were a deliberate design feature of the economy. That's something which we highlighted in opposition and which we continue to talk about because, of course, they've done nothing to accept responsibility for the damage to the economy they caused and the pain they caused to working people in this country. When it comes to labour hire—and I've seen this in Queensland in particular, in the resources dependent communities—they let it run rampant. In terms of the consequences of labour hire, as well as the way labour hire drives down wages and conditions for other employees, there is also the impact it has on communities. It hurts people. It hurts their ability to get a loan for a car or a loan for a house. These are the consequences of labour hire, and that was the policy of those opposite that was allowed to run rampant across many parts of the economy, particularly in regional Queensland. In regard to industrial relations, they did nothing to support low-paid workers. They made no changes that were going to improve the ability of those workers to make ends meet and get ahead in life. So, when it comes to industrial relations, their record in government was appalling, and we've had to work to correct it.</para>
<para>In regard to energy, we regularly highlight the more than 20 energy policies that they had when they were in government. We know the chaos and uncertainty that that caused industry as a result, let alone the chaos and uncertainty caused by the demonising of renewables that continues to this day from those opposite. When you think about their record, what do they actually have to show for their years in government? What we do know is that they spent $3.3 million on a study to build a new coal-fired power station in Collinsville. Whatever happened to that $3.3 million and that study? Where have they gone? That is actually their record in government. So, when they come in with a motion like this, it is important to highlight their record. They've done nothing to own up to the mistakes they made in government and actually say, 'We got it wrong.'</para>
<para>There is a clear contrast with this government. What we are doing on wages is supporting low-paid workers. We've made changes to the system to enable them to bargain more effectively. We've supported increases in the minimum wage that are actually going to make a difference in helping people continue to keep their heads above water. In regard to labour hire, we've cracked down on the loopholes, ensuring that those people doing the same job are earning the same pay. That's a significant change for many people, particularly the ones I've seen in regional Queensland. As I mentioned, there were changes to the bargaining system to allow those people, particularly in the feminised industries, the opportunity to bargain more effectively and increase their pay. In energy, we have a clear ambition: emissions down, reliability up and relief for families on prices.</para>
<para>So when you look at this motion and the record of this government, as opposed to those opposite, it shows you that we are actually a complete contrast to them. On all these issues, which are significant issues, we're actually taking action. When you look at their record and how despicable it was and how sorry it was, they actually need to take ownership of that and say, 'We got it wrong.' When it comes to energy, again I'll use the example of the $3.3 million they gave to a study for a coal-fired power station in Collinsville. We never saw anything of that. The fact of the matter is that it was used to create a bit of a culture war. That's what it was used for in the election campaign. The $3.3 million disappeared up a drain somewhere. We haven't seen any evidence of it. But they've learned nothing from that, because that's what we are getting from those opposite around nuclear energy. They're not committed to it. They just want to use this as a scare campaign and as a culture war, because they don't want to actually embrace renewables. That's their record in government. That's their record in opposition. You can't believe a word they say when it comes to energy, whereas this is a government that is getting on with the job, building reliability and ensuring that we have a safe future.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Obviously, I rise in support of Senator Canavan's urgency motion. Why wouldn't I? Of course, I do. The Labor Party's mad fixation on rewiring our nation and the energy grid will not change global temperatures—we all know that—but it is creating havoc across our nation.</para>
<para>It beggars belief, it really does, that Minister Bowen, who in my personal opinion has failed at every ministry portfolio that he has ever held, is now in charge of completely dismantling and deconstructing our reliable baseload energy infrastructure and replacing it with less reliable, made-in-China garbage—let's be honest. Our cheap, abundant coal is shipped overseas for use in foreign power plants, while we cannot use it here at home and while our own coal-fired power plants are quite literally blown up. Our ample natural gas reserves are left in the ground, unfortunately, while business warns of an impending shortage. The one energy source that could reduce emissions while supplying the needs of householders and industry is just outright banned from even being considered. The government's nuclear power phobia is matched only by the government's wind and solar obsession. Meanwhile, the good people of this nation are paying through the nose for their electricity. But do you know what? Before Minister Bowen got his hands on our grid, we had some of the cheapest power in the world. That's what we had.</para>
<para>Prime Minister Albanese spent a year going around talking about his Voice to Parliament, but where is the voice for our farmers, our struggling families out there, our regional communities, our koalas and our whales, whose habitats are under threat from all this renewable energy garbage? That is what it is—garbage. The result of all of this is going to be quite predictable. It's going to be grim. It's going to be higher power prices and less reliable power. That's what's going to happen.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's always a privilege to follow my good friend Senator Babet. There was a lot of common sense in that contribution from Senator Babet. Thank you very much, Senator, for your contribution. I also rise to support Senator Canavan's motion in this respect. Senator Canavan is a great warrior for our home state of Queensland and for the resources industry, as reflected in this motion.</para>
<para>There was a point that Senator Canavan made which we should all reflect on—that is, that the gas supply market outlook report indicated that gas-fired power stations, because of gas shortfalls, may have to use diesel fuel to operate. Just reflect on that: gas-fired power stations have been built on the expectation that there would be gas supply—and there's an abundance of gas reserves across this country; we're blessed to have all the gas reserves we have in this country. Those gas-fired power stations built on the presumption that there would actually be gas supply to feed them are actually going to have to rely on diesel fuel, which, as Senator Canavan has said, is the greatest emitter of carbon. Diesel fuel in gas-fired power stations—how did we get to this position with an abundance of reserves? It's absolute madness.</para>
<para>At the same time, I am hearing various calls from various parties for an LNG import terminal for Australia. Again, when issues were raised by stakeholders about constructing an LNG import terminal, it was madness. It's like taking coal to Newcastle: absolute madness given the gas supply that we have in Australia. That is supply that we should not be just using here but exporting. We've seen the United States now overtake Australia and Qatar as an LNG exporter. We're missing those opportunities. The last gas market report, for quarter 1 2024, from the International Energy Association, shows natural gas markets are expected to return to growth in 2024.</para>
<para>Global gas demand is forecast to grow by 2.5 per cent in 2024. Demand for gas, a key transition tool, is still going up. That's what the market reports are telling us. And yet we're having trouble supplying our own gas market. Not only are we not taking advantage of the opportunities that are there all over the world, including in Asia, with regard to LNG exports; we also have insufficient gas to provide security of supply to our own power stations. It's absolute madness.</para>
<para>This all comes back to the timing of the pipeline projects. A project in the gas market, as in any resource market, starts with exploration. You go through a feasibility study and getting your finance for construction and then you start producing. The latest <inline font-style="italic">Resources </inline><inline font-style="italic">and energy major project</inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline> report tells us that project proponents are actually withdrawing their projects. They've given up. Seven projects were dropped altogether in the gas space. Three projects were delayed and 11 did not progress. That is a total of 55 per cent of the major gas projects in this report not going ahead as they should be. But that capital is simply being redeployed overseas, so other nations are going to get the benefit of that capital investment. Other nations are going to get the benefit of those export dollars. Other nations are going to get the benefit of that cheap energy supply. Australia is going to miss out.</para>
<para>Senator Chisholm, in his contribution to the debate, can point the finger over at this side of the chamber. I am proud of the previous coalition government's record of developing our natural resources. It's provided a tidal wave of revenue for the budget, as we've seen over the last few years from all of those resource projects that were approved under the coalition government. But the policy parameters under the current government are convincing the owners of capital, especially capital that could be invested in gas projects, to invest offshore, and that's to the detriment of all Australians.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for this discussion has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF URGENCY</title>
        <page.no>62</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF URGENCY</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Endangered Species</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the Senate that the President has received the following letter, dated 25/03/2024, from Senator David Pocock:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today I propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government must substantially increase funding for threatened species in the May budget and introduce comprehensive reform of our national environmental laws in line with the commitment to no new extinctions. The Government initially committed to introducing the reform by mid-2024, and must introduce the package by October 2024.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government must substantially increase funding for threatened species in the May budget and introduce comprehensive reform of our national environmental laws in line with the commitment to no new extinctions. The Government initially committed to introducing the reform by mid-2024, and must introduce the package by October 2024.</para></quote>
<para>As we know, Australia is a megadiverse country. We have an incredible array of species and ecosystems unique to this country that have evolved here over millions and millions of years, but we're not doing a great job of protecting that biodiversity. We're not doing a great job of actually living here like we're here for a long time, like we want our kids and our grandkids to be able to see and experience the things that we've all enjoyed. Whether it's your favourite beach and the rockpools and the incredible fish and crabs that are in there, or if it's down at the Murrumbidgee watching platypuses, seeing crayfish and the incredible birds, these are things we have taken for granted. For generations we have taken them for granted and yet we're not doing enough to look after them. We're living like we don't care. We might hear great proclamations about no new extinctions, promises for new environmental laws, but we're not seeing it delivered. Just promising no new extinctions is not delivering it.</para>
<para>We have some of the world's best environmental scientists here in Australia, and a few years ago they actually got together and said, 'What would it take to halt extinction in Australia?' They worked out, back then, it would cost about $1.7 billion a year—in today's money, it's probably about $2 billion or so—yet we're spending an absolute fraction of that on threatened species, and we see no indication that we actually want to put our money where our mouth is and look after this incredible place. We could have laws in place that look after it and we could fund programs that can protect it. We can play a role as a steward to actually hand it over to future generations. We are failing future generations and we are failing this country.</para>
<para>We know the causes of so many of these tragic losses. We are a world leader in extinction, and that's not something we should be proud of. I'd be arguing that we should do everything we can to turn that around. We have a relatively new government that has promised to do that, but we haven't seen them make good on that promise with the requisite legislation or funding that is required.</para>
<para>We're the only developed country that is a deforestation hotspot. We've got to be able to turn that around, surely. Surely, we can move our economy beyond that, beyond building wealth at the expense of nature, building wealth at the expense of the very thing that sustains us. The thing that we often forget in this place is that we're part of nature, and if nature goes down then we're going with her. At this stage there's all the signs we're heading in that direction. We've got scientists begging us to do more, as the people who can actually change these things in Australia. Imagine if we actually had a parliament that wanted to act on this! I would urge my fellow senators, and those in the other place, to take this seriously. Let's be the ones that turn this around.</para>
<para>We've seen the impact that climate change is having on habitat and species across the country, and yet the government still refuses to entertain putting climate into our environmental laws. They don't want a climate trigger. They don't want to actually assess whether or not projects should go ahead based on their impact on the climate. It is just so laughable in 2024—it would be funny if it wasn't so serious. There is so much at stake. The last IPCC report was the last one in this window of action, and I would urge the government to step up and show the courage that's required to actually act for us, for the kids up there in the gallery and for the Australians who aren't born yet. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Acting Deputy President Polley, it's a delight to be able to spend more time with you, after the weekend, but I do welcome the opportunity to debate the urgency motion put forward by Senator David Pocock, which I commend him for bringing in.</para>
<para>There are some very important elements to what Senator Pocock is drawing to the attention of the Senate and to the Australian community. And while I broadly support the principle of what Senator Pocock has put forward here, there are a couple of issues which I will go into a little bit of detail on, namely the funding component of this motion. That's what I am particularly concerned about. Why don't we start with that? That is an important issue, and I think it is important for governments and for political parties who operate in this place to consider how best that finite resource of taxpayers' funds is used. Supporting our environment, protecting our environment and conserving what is special, beautiful and unique to Australia are critically important. So government funding into programs and projects to do exactly that is essential.</para>
<para>Senator Pocock calls on the government to substantially increase funding for threatened species in this coming budget. I expect that work is well underway on the May budget and the finance minister is probably sitting over there now signing off on the documentation.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Along with the negative gearing changes—you are probably right, Senator Smith. But what concerns me most is something I've observed at Senate estimates. Senator Pocock has been quite forensic in his interrogation of the officials from the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water, particularly on the funding for threatened species work and work with endangered species and how we protect the environment. There are these nebulous figures thrown about. Every time Senator Pocock asks a question on exactly how much is spent and what we have for it and asks, 'Can you tell us where this is having an impact?' the answers are always vague: 'It's a bit of this; it's a bit of that. We'll take it on notice, Senator.' They go so far as to include administration costs—the reams of paper put into the printer down at the Threatened Species Commissioner's office—as funding toward the protection of endangered species.</para>
<para>This is why I have concern about just handing more money over to a regime which, frankly, isn't well accounted for and, as far as Senator Pocock's questioning at Senate estimates reveals, isn't really hitting the mark. So, until we get better answers about where this money's going, what it's doing and if it's actually having an impact, I don't know that we can just throw good money after bad.</para>
<para>But the more critical point of the motion that Senator Pocock has put down is around the legislation that we were promised. When this government came to office, we were told by the minister for the environment, Ms Plibersek, that we didn't have a minute to spare and that it was critically urgent that we get on reforming our environmental approval laws in this country. In addition to that, she committed to there being zero new extinctions on her watch as environment minister. Well, we're nearly two years in, and there has been a series of smoky-room, locked-door arrangements going on. We've had these so-called consultations with industry, environmental groups and other interested stakeholders—a select group—where, would you believe, some of the most complex law reform is going on in our generation, around something that is critically important, the environment, a public good, and you're not allowed to take your phone, your iPad or your laptop. No electronic devices go into these rooms where hundreds if not thousands of pages of legislation are presented for your consultation. You have to handwrite down the notes that you can in the time allotted to you and hope that you've got everything down right to go back and talk to your members, your associates and the people who work in your industry. What kind of a consultation is that?</para>
<para>The promise was made that we would have legislation in this parliament by the end of last year. We are hurtling towards the two-year mark, and this government hasn't got a skerrick of legislation on the table—not one piece. I hazard a guess that we won't be seeing legislation brought into this parliament before this election. I've a feeling things are so dire in their so-called consultation process that there is no hope of them being able to bring in this major election promise, to have legislation and to reform these laws before the end of this term of parliament.</para>
<para>The big losers out of that, of course, are the environment and, more importantly, or equally importantly, the economy—jobs and people's livelihoods. No certainty. It is another broken promise by this government. While I commend the motion, we won't be supporting it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I welcome the opportunity to stand up here today and speak about the Albanese Labor government's strong commitment to reforming our environmental protection laws and ensuring that Australia's unique biodiversity is protected. The laws are in train. They will be coming to this parliament, Senator Duniam. They will. But this is an extremely complex piece of work, as I think we all know. Those of us who were around the last time that Labor was in government will know that when we started this process there wasn't a great deal of time left before we lost government in 2013. We tried to get some reforms in. We didn't get a lot of support, we didn't get a lot of assistance and it didn't come to fruition. Yes, we do think this is critical and it will come to this parliament.</para>
<para>I thank Senator David Pocock for his genuine interest in this issue and I look forward to continuing to work constructively with him towards this outcome. But, as Senator Pocock would be aware, we did inherit a significantly depleted environment department. Its funds had been slashed and the environmental outlook that was reflected after a decade of neglect and disinterest from the Liberal-National government has made it very difficult to get on top of that neglect and that extraordinarily gutted department, to get the kind of reform that we need. And we do not apologise for having a lengthy consultation, not by any stretch. A lengthy consultation is required because this is complex and we need to recognise people's perspectives and issues on this piece of work. I'll say it again: the legislation is coming to this parliament.</para>
<para>As I said, when we first came to government, Minister Plibersek was faced with quite the wreck left behind, including the buried <inline font-style="italic">State of the environment </inline>report, which showed us just how terrible the situation was across Australia—worse than many of us had anticipated. Minister Plibersek put that out so people could see exactly what was going on. We have a lot of work to do, and this is not work that is done swiftly. It is work that is done painstakingly. But we do need to get it done. We haven't been dragging our heels here. Our <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">hreatened species action plan</inline><inline font-style="italic">:</inline><inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">owards zero extinction</inline> is guiding the crucial work that needs to occur. It maps a pathway for species conservation and recovery for the next decade.</para>
<para>We are restoring and protecting our natural spaces and investing over 500 million to better protect the flora and fauna of this country. That includes addressing things such as feral animals, weeds and the situation we are in where we find our native species are being destroyed. It is also projects like restoring koala habitat, tackling invasive pests and supporting the fantastic network of local groups across Australia who do fundamentally important work to help protect our environment. We are also protecting 40 million hectares of Australian ocean and bush and have committed to protecting 30 per cent of our land and sea by 2030. This obviously has a series of connected health and social benefits and will ensure that we preserve the habitat of our native wildlife.</para>
<para>We have legislated our world-first Nature Repair Market, and that again is something that will take some time to get moving. When you are making fundamental reforms, you don't just sign off on a piece of legislation and the next morning everything is automatically fixed. That is not how this works. But we are dedicated and we are committed and we look forward to working with all of those in this chamber to pursue these objectives. Our natural environment, our natural habitat, is critical, not just for the flora and fauna but also for the health and wellbeing of the people of this country. And we do take this very, very seriously. But, as I said, a decade of neglect at the hands of the former Liberal-National government cannot be undone overnight, not by any stretch. It is a complete disgrace what they did to the environment. We will continue to do all that we can and we will work towards getting this EPBC reform sorted as quickly as possible.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to contribute to this afternoon's discussion on an issue that is so important: the survival of planet Earth—how we look after the environment, the environment that sustains all of us. We know the facts and figures. The environment is under stress more than ever before. Under the weight of human consumption, greed, negligence, Mother Earth is struggling, and she is crying out for help. When we look around at our local communities, we see that there are fewer green spaces, fewer native forests and fewer native animals. It's unthinkable that our iconic koala is even on the endangered list and slated for extinction in the next few decades if we don't act now.</para>
<para>Australians are increasingly concerned and are becoming more and more frustrated that, while politicians, political parties and leaders know the facts, know the issues and know what needs to stop, all we seem to get is more of the same and arguments like, 'We'll do it later on,' or 'That's going to cost money,' or 'But we need to destroy that particular part of the forest because somebody's job relies on it.' For far too long we have been asking Mother Nature to carry the burden for our greed and our expansion. We've got to do better. Australians expect that, in this place, when parliamentarians and political parties promise that they are going to act on the environment and are going to put in place environmental protection laws, those laws will actually do something to protect the environment. Currently, Australia's environmental laws are really weak and are less about protecting the environment and more about a pathway to approve mining projects and big development—more about approving those projects, rather than protecting the environment from their destruction.</para>
<para>We know Australians are becoming frustrated. All we need to do is look at the election results in Tasmania on the weekend, where we saw people overwhelmingly reject the state Liberal Party's push to log more, destroy more, and save less. We saw the local Tasmanian community reject that. We saw across the country on the weekend thousands and thousands of Australians rallying to protect our native forests—not just to save the animals that live in them and call those forests their homes but also to save these forests because we are in a dual crisis of extinction and climate. It is a double-whammy because, the worse the climate gets, the more stress our environment is under, and the more stress our environment is under the worse the climate crisis gets. It is a wicked, wicked cycle. We have to put a stop to it.</para>
<para>You do that by stopping the things that are making this situation worse. Stop burning those fossil fuels that supercharge the climate crisis; stop approving projects that are going to create more pollution that will supercharge the climate crisis and greenhouse gases and global warming; and put a stop to the destruction of the carbon sinks, our native forests, which really are one of the only things we've got in the battle against this climate crisis. Every time another tree in our native forests is logged, it makes it harder for us to stop runaway climate change. It doesn't just put at risk our native animals; it also puts at risk our community. We need laws that do something to protect the environment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we sit here today, nearly a quarter of a century into the 21st century, with all we know about the breakdown of this planet's climate and the extinction crisis that we are facing on a global scale, it is truly staggering that both old-style parties in this place still support the wholesale destruction of Australia's beautiful, magnificent carbon-rich native forests and that both major parties in this place—the Coles and Woolworths of Australian politics—still support the industrial-scale clear-felling and burning of the habitat of some of the most beautiful, unique creatures on this planet.</para>
<para>Our native forests are home to a complex and awesome web of life. They are absolutely critical in the fight against climate change. They nurture our spirits, and they are worth protecting just for what they are—beautiful and magnificent. Native forest logging is not just a last-century industry; it is actually a 19th-century industry. Logging those beautiful, awesome, magnificent forests is a crime against our climate and a crime against nature. Whether it's the swift parrot in my home state of Tasmania being logged into extinction by the Tasmanian government, or the Leadbeater's possum, the southern greater glider and many other threatened species that call Australia's native forests home, those species are being driven into extinction by an industry based on greed and on political access.</para>
<para>The native forest logging industry destroys carbon sinks, and it releases carbon bonds into the atmosphere. It is a mendicant industry that would collapse overnight if public subsidies were withdrawn from it. Why does it exist? It exists so that people in this place in the major parties can put on their hardhats and their safety vets, wander into the local sawmill for a photo opportunity and pretend that they care about the workers. They don't care about the workers. If they did, they would be putting in place a transition plan to help those workers transition their jobs into jobs that manage and protect biodiversity, manage and protect our forests, and manage and protect nature. Instead, what we see are draconian anti-protest laws, where those brave people who actually put themselves on the line to defend our forests are criminalised. It shouldn't be a crime to defend our forests; it should be a crime to destroy our forests. That's why we need ecocide laws in Australia that actually criminalise the destruction of nature, particularly when it's done for profit and political gain.</para>
<para>The major parties will soon understand that they can't arrest their way out of the climate crisis and that they can't arrest their way out of the extinction crisis. The prisons are just not big enough for them to be able to do that. There are people who have been—and still are today—in prison in Tasmania because they stood up against the political duopoly in this country and put themselves on the line to defend our forests. I will give a shout-out to those people and the many others around this country who are engaging in civil disobedience to protect our climate and to protect nature. They are the true heroes of our times, and they will be recorded as heroes when the pages of history are written through the 21st century.</para>
<para>The Liberals in Tasmania went to the election promising more logging. There was a 10-plus per cent swing against them. Those policies were overwhelmingly rejected.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm pleased to rise to speak to this motion in one of my last speeches in this place because Australia is in an extinction crisis. We hold the highest number of mammal extinctions globally and rank second in the world for biodiversity loss, just behind Indonesia. This is a national disgrace. Our national environment laws should protect the places we love and protect our flora and fauna, yet it's clear that they are failing. They are failing to stop animals and birds hurtling towards extinction, and they are failing to safeguard our environment from political whim and greed.</para>
<para>The Regional Forest Agreements form one of the most destructive parts of our environment laws. Under these agreements, the logging industry is given a special carve-out from the EPBC Act, which means that the regulation and protection of Australia's precious forests and wildlife are effectively left to state governments. These are the same state governments who own Forestry Corporation of NSW and so-called Sustainable Timber Tasmania, logging agencies who have recklessly destroyed irreplaceable forests and critical habitat time and time again.</para>
<para>Despite there being less than 750 swift parrots in the whole world, logging of their forest homes in Tasmania continues. In New South Wales last year, an endangered greater glider was found dead after a logging operation in the Tallaganda forest just 70 kilometres south of parliament. This forest was logged by the Forestry Corporation of NSW despite being one of the only places in the whole world where greater gliders are still dominant; it's been identified as a priority area for greater glider recovery. After the dead glider was found, the state EPA ordered an immediate stop to operations. But now they've approved logging to start again, just with slightly bigger buffer zones around the greater glider nest trees.</para>
<para>The harm caused by logging operations can't be underestimated, and it can't be undone. The habitat of threatened species is being destroyed. Over the last 20 years, greater glider numbers have declined by up to 80 per cent in some areas due to logging, land clearing and devastating fires caused by the climate crisis. Our national environment laws are failing to stop the destruction of the Tallaganda, despite the significance of this forest: as habitat for the greater glider and other endangered species; for being unceded country for First Nations peoples; for its role in soaking up and storing carbon; and as a destination for hikers, mountain bikers and birdwatchers. State logging agencies cannot be trusted and neither can their state government owners. Again in New South Wales, this was made abundantly clear by the New South Wales Labor government's refusal to halt logging in areas that they promised would be part of the great koala national park. Meanwhile, the logging continues. The New South Wales government has broken its pre-election commitment and put koalas in the state absolutely and firmly on the path to extinction. In Victoria, where native logging is meant to have stopped, we still have logging going on in the Wombat forest under the guise of fire protection and salvage logging. I was pleased to be at a forest rally in Kyneton yesterday with hundreds of forest defenders, who are determined to see this logging end.</para>
<para>In the nearly two years of this Labor government, we have witnessed the government turn a blind eye to the destruction of Australia's forests and threatened species by the logging industry, happily approve new coal and gas mines, and delay and defer changes to our environment laws. This Labor government, when it comes to threatened species, are no better than their Liberal predecessors. The only difference is that the Liberal government were upfront about their earth-destroying intent instead of sneaking through destructive legislation. If this Labor government really cared about their zero extinction promise, protecting Australia's environment or stopping the climate crisis, they would listen to First Nations peoples, environment organisations and the Greens. They would come true on their promise to reform and strengthen our environment laws and they would abolish The Regional Forest Agreements and end native forest logging once and for all.</para>
<para>I look forward to returning to life as a forest campaigner after I leave this place, working with the majority of the Australian people, who want to see an end to native forest logging. I look forward to seeing my colleagues continue to work together in this place to make sure that our forests are protected.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator David Pocock be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:48]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Fawcett)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>14</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>21</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Law Reform Commission</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the document.</para></quote>
<para>I will just make a couple of brief remarks on the Australian Law Reform Commission report. I read the report over the weekend and, I've got to say, it fundamentally misses the point, which is that people of faith cannot in any way separate their faith from who they actually are. For a person of faith, their activities are not some adjunct to their experiences. They are not just activities that they undertake from time to time. Maybe they're a regular church attendant. Maybe they only celebrate Easter, Christmas, Ramadan or whatever it might be. Their faith is who they are. There's an intrinsic connection to their life. This report fundamentally smacks people's faith in their faces.</para>
<para>I am bitterly disappointed at the way that the ALRC have engaged. They did have an extensive consultation period. They connected with people and received many, many submissions, but they failed to acknowledge the substance of those submissions. I've heard from hundreds of people over the weekend—people of faith, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish people—who consider their faith to be part of who they are. They are bitterly disappointed that their views have not been fundamentally understood at best but really have been ignored at worst. And I think it's a great shame.</para>
<para>But bigger than that is the fact that the government is refusing to release its response. All that we've really seen from the government so far is that this is a report to government, not from government. We know that there's draft legislation, because our shadow minister has been able to see it, but what about the rest of us? What about the rest of the country? How come they can't see this legislation? And they call that engagement with the opposition, seeking bipartisan support. I've got to say that it is a real low blow to anyone of faith in this country that you won't consider the views of people of faith in this country. This legislation should be out there for all of us to see and should be subject to an inquiry of this Senate so that people, whether they've got faith or not, are able to engage in the process and provide feedback.</para>
<para>The audacity of this Prime Minister to think that they can deal with just a few of us and ram this through the parliament without giving the rest of us—and, indeed, the rest of the country—the opportunity to look at it shows and tells us everything that we need to know about this government. I am ashamed and I am deeply disappointed that this is where we've got to. I call on the Prime Minister to reject the recommendations of this review, to not allow those recommendations to ever see the light of day in this parliament and in this country, but have the guts and release your legislation so we can see what your real agenda is. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I congratulate my colleague Senator O'Sullivan for his contribution in relation to this matter. Senator O'Sullivan is absolutely 100 per cent correct. It is unforgivable that the Albanese Labor government has prepared draft legislation in response to the Australian Law Reform Commission report on religious educational institutions and antidiscrimination laws, which is a very important matter of public policy, yet barely anyone in this place has seen it.</para>
<para>We, the representatives of our respective states, don't have an opportunity to see this legislation. Members of the public, those in the public gallery and those across the country, including those who are leaders of our faith based communities, religious institutions and educational institutions—who would be impacted directly by this legislation, or I assume they'd be impacted, though I haven't seen it like my friend Senator O'Sullivan—are not being given the opportunity to see this legislation.</para>
<para>I've got absolute confidence in my colleague Senator Cash, but this legislation should be able to be scrutinised by everyone in this place, not just the shadow minister. Everyone should have access to this legislation, which is so important. It is absolutely crucial. There are core freedoms in this country—freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of conscience. This goes to one of those core freedoms, freedom of religion.</para>
<para>People come to this country from all over the world because of freedom of religion because they're denied freedom of religion in other countries. They come to Australia so they can practice their faith in peace. It is a core freedom in this country, and the draft legislation in response to this report should be in the public domain so that every Australian has the right and the opportunity to review that legislation and provide their feedback to us as their representatives. That's how the system is meant to work. We're meant to have openness and transparency so we can have a debate, so we can engage in freedom of speech and have our views heard. Then, hopefully, through that process, we can come up with the ultimate policy position that has the support of the majority of Australians. That's the way the system is meant to work.</para>
<para>The system is not meant to be conducted on the basis of draft legislation, hidden behind a closed door and behind a non-disclosure agreement. Someone can come in, have a look at it and sign a non-disclosure agreement. They're not allowed to tell anyone else what's in it. That's ridiculous and absurd. I don't know who's advising the Prime Minister in this regard.</para>
<para>The second element which concerns me about this, as Senator O'Sullivan touched upon, is that apparently if the legislation does come forward, there are those on the other side saying: 'There's no need to have another inquiry. We've had enough inquiries.'</para>
<para>Let me tell you, I sat on the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee inquiry into this area of legislation that was brought forth during the last parliament, and there is every reason why an inquiry is needed in relation to this legislation, if it ever comes into the light of day. The previous inquiry, which I was a part of, delivered a 165-page report in relation to that draft legislation. Why? Because it's complicated, the devil is in the detail and so many stakeholders are keenly interested in this legislation. The issue of unintended consequences is abound in relation to these areas.</para>
<para>There needs to be an inquiry, but the first step in any process is for the draft legislation to be made public so the Australians impacted by this draft legislation have an opportunity to read it themselves and provide feedback to their elected representatives. They can't do that if it's hidden behind a cloak of secrecy, behind closed doors and under non-disclosure agreements. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>68</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Attorney-General's Department, Services Australia, Department of Finance</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, Services Australia's application processing data and the Research Supply and Icebreaker Project.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Attorney-General's Department</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the ministerial statement regarding the IRGC, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the document.</para></quote>
<para>In the ministerial statement from the Minister representing the Attorney-General, the government has once again refused to comply with orders of the Senate in relation to documents relating to the terrorist organisation the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps. The government is disrespecting the Senate by once again refusing to provide these documents and, in doing so, relying on the public interest immunity claim that has already been rejected by this chamber.</para>
<para>Let's be very clear about what has happened and the Albanese government's lack of transparency and disrespect of the decisions of the Senate. Because of a freedom-of-information request submitted by a member of the community, we know that the Attorney-General's Department is in possession of documents related to the IRGC dated 11 January 2023, titled 'Statement of Reasons' and 'Nomination form—criminal code'. The Attorney-General's Department last year refused to release of documents under freedom of information. Then, when the Senate towards the end of last year sought access to these documents, the government refused to provide them, citing national security concerns if they are released. So then the Senate sought for the documents to instead be provided confidentially to the Parliamentary Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and Security. Incredibly, the government has refused to provide the documents confidentially, even to that committee—a committee of this parliament which ensures that we have oversight of intelligence and security matters. Now, despite the Senate quite appropriately rejecting the public interest immunity claim, because the government has absolutely failed to offer a legitimate reason as to how our national security could be harmed by these documents going to the PJCIS, the government has again today refused to comply with this order.</para>
<para>What we know from the existence of these documents is that government agencies know that the IRGC is involved in terrorism. There is no reason for government agencies to develop a nomination form or a statement of reasons unless there is a strong indication that that group is involved in terrorist activity. It is no surprise to anyone here that agencies would believe that to be the case, because the IRGC has an extensive history over decades of involvement in terrorism. We know that they work closely with listed terrorist organisations, including Hamas and Hezbollah; we know that they are a key player in the attacks against US and coalition forces by the Houthis and by other Iranian proxy groups, including the Islamic Resistance in Iraq group; and we know that our closest ally, the United States, have stated clearly on the public record that the IRGC are behind these attacks, and they have in fact had to take military action against IRGC affiliated groups to try to prevent further attacks. So there is no secret at all that the IRGC is not only historically involved in terrorism but also involved right now in stoking and helping to carry out violence in the Middle East.</para>
<para>What are these documents that the government is refusing to release to the Senate or to the PJCIS? The protocol for listing terrorist organisations says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In considering an organisation for listing, the Australian Federal Police (AFP) Minister (in practice the Attorney-General) considers advice in the form of an unclassified Statement of Reasons. This addresses both legislative and non-legislative criteria.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Statement of Reasons is made available to the public. It provides transparency about the AFP Minister's satisfaction that the organisation meets the legislative threshold for listing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Statement of Reasons is prepared based on unclassified, open-source information about an organisation. It is intended to corroborate classified intelligence assessments from relevant agencies.</para></quote>
<para>This statement-of-reasons document that the government refuses to release either by FOI or by order of this Senate was prepared by the Department of Home Affairs based on unclassified open-source information and is designed to be made available to the public following a listing decision. It is important to be clear that this government is not mounting the argument that this information is incorrect or that the IRGC is not involved in terrorist activity or is not a threat to Australians, because we all know that the IRGC is both of those things, and certainly I think the government knows it as well.</para>
<para>We know that in the two weeks after the statement of reasons and nomination form were prepared, the government suddenly developed this position that it was legally impossible to list the IRGC as a terrorist organisation, a position which, I should say, they have never sought to substantiate. So we have one government agency with responsibility for national security preparing documents for the listing of the IRGC but then others in government rushing out a decision that it can't be done. The really worrying thing here is that, despite the fact that the coalition has repeatedly offered bipartisan support to remove what the government claims is a legal technicality preventing the listing of the IRGC, this government refuses to even consider drafting amendments, and that's why the government should release these documents.</para>
<para>It is the responsibility of this parliament to make sure that our criminal and security laws are operating effectively to keep Australians safe. What the government is doing by blocking the release of these documents—developed, as I said, based on public, open-source information—is to try to keep secret the reasons that the government knows about the risk and the threat of the IRGC to Australians. This government's lack of openness and transparency is disgraceful. It is no wonder that the Iranian diaspora here in Australia are so alarmed and disturbed. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise to take note of the response to this order for the production of documents. I would like to commend Senator Chandler on her great advocacy in this matter. I note that it is greatly appreciated by the Australian Iranian diaspora in my home of Queensland. I thank you so much, Senator Chandler, for everything you are doing in this space. On Saturday evening, I attended an event of the Kurdish Society of Queensland as they celebrated their new year, the beginning of spring—the Newroz celebration. So many members of that Kurdish community in Queensland come originally from Iran, where they suffered persecution. This is a matter of great significance to the Iranian diaspora here in Australia given what has been happening in Iran.</para>
<para>The Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps should be declared a terrorist organisation because it is a terrorist organisation. All the objective evidence is to that effect. They operate as a terrorist organisation outside of Iran, supporting other terrorist organisations. There is no doubt in my mind that they should be deemed to be a terrorist organisation. As Senator Chandler said, if there is some sort of legislative impediment then the government should work with the opposition to address that legislative impediment. I'm sure members of the crossbench would also be open to addressing that impediment, given the horrific things that we are seeing in Iran and elsewhere that are intimately involved with the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps.</para>
<para>But the first step is transparency. There is no legitimate reason provided by the minister as to why these documents should not be produced—absolutely no legitimate reason whatsoever. The government needs to consider this point. I'm sure Senator Chandler will keep prosecuting the case, as she has been ably doing thus far. In doing this, Senator Chandler will have the support of senators such as me and all of us in this place who are close to our wonderful Iranian diaspora and who want to see justice done in this case, which equates to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps being declared to be a terrorist organisation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Do you seek leave to continue your remarks?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I do.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>70</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Migration Joint Committee, Northern Australia Joint Select Committee</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>70</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! The President has received a letter requesting changes in the membership of committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Migration—Joint Standing Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator McKim</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Senator Shoebridge</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Northern Australia—Joint Select Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator Allman-Payne</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Senator Cox</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>70</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Library of Australia</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received a letter from the Leader of the Government in the Senate nominating Senator Walsh to be a member of the Council of the National Library of Australia.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in accordance with the provisions of the <inline font-style="italic">National Library Act 1960</inline>, the Senate elect Senator Walsh to be a member of the Council of the National Library of Australia for a period of 3 years, on and from today.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Research Council Amendment (Review Response) Bill 2023, National Vocational Education and Training Regulator Amendment (Strengthening Quality and Integrity in Vocational Education and Training No. 1) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7130" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Australian Research Council Amendment (Review Response) Bill 2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7138" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Vocational Education and Training Regulator Amendment (Strengthening Quality and Integrity in Vocational Education and Training No. 1) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Scheme Joint Committee, Corporations and Financial Services Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2024, Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No. 1) Bill 2024, Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No. 2) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7117" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r7127" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No. 1) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7137" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No. 2) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table revised explanatory memoranda relating to Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2024 and the Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No. 1) Bill 2024. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The speech</inline> <inline font-style="italic">es</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW TRIBUNAL BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Today, the Governments introduces three Bills that together will abolish the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and replace it with a new and much improved Administrative Review Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In doing so, these Bills represents the most important reform of the federal system of administrative review for decades.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Effective administrative review is critical to Australia's system of government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A strong, user-focused administrative review body provides an avenue for community members to seek independent review of government decisions that have major and sometimes life-altering impacts on their lives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This function is critical to protecting the rights and interests of individuals and organisations, including the most vulnerable members of our community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And critically, high quality review of government decision-making can—and, if this Bill is enacted, will—encourage better quality decision-making across government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Background</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Administrative Appeals Tribunal commenced on 1 July 1976, following reports by the Commonwealth Administrative Review Committee in 1971 and the Committee on Administrative Directions in 1973.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commonwealth Administrative Review Committee report, in particular, recognised the need for individuals to be able to challenge a growing range of government decisions, and recommended the creation of a comprehensive and 'essentially Australian' system of administrative law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the second reading speech for the Administrative Appeals Tribunal Bill 1975, then Attorney-General, the Honourable Kep Enderby QC, outlined the intention to establish a single independent tribunal and a vision of the AAT as the main tribunal for Commonwealth administrative review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The foundational principles of administrative review are as relevant today as they were in 1976. An independent person 'stepping into the shoes' of the original decision-maker still lies at the core of merits review. The objective of ensuring that government reaches decisions that are correct or preferable is, and remains, the goal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Unfortunately, the AAT no longer enjoys the trust and confidence of the Australian community it serves, and is not fit-for-purpose. The previous government's record of appointing dozens of individuals from the same political party to the AAT is well known.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, the AAT's problems extend beyond the absence of a merit-based selection process under the former government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Government inherited an AAT that is not on a sustainable financial footing, that is beset by delays and a large and growing backlog of applications, and an AAT that is operating multiple and ageing electronic case management systems—a legacy of the poorly executed amalgamation of multiple tribunals into the AAT in 2015.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government also inherited an AAT that is no longer taken seriously—or, at least, seriously enough—by government departments and agencies. As the Robodebt Royal Commission highlighted, the AAT made hundreds of decisions that the approach to calculating and raising debts under the Scheme was unlawful—but those decisions, and their obvious implications, were ignored and ultimately buried.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In developing this package of legislation, the Government has had the opportunity to look at the original vision for the AAT afresh, and consider how it can best be realised now and into the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We have the benefit of nearly 50 years of experience since the AAT was established and multiple reviews—old and new—into the AAT and the administrative review system more generally.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We have drawn on the knowledge and wisdom of an Expert Advisory Group. That Group is led by former High Court Justice, the Honourable Patrick Keane AC KC, and comprises Ms Rachel Amamoo, Professor Anna Cody (now the Sex Discrimination Commissioner), Emeritus Professor Robin Creyke AO, Emeritus Professor Ron McCallum AO, Former Federal Court Justice, the Honourable Alan Robertson SC, and Emeritus Professor Cheryl Saunders AO.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And over the course of the last year, the Attorney-General's Department has undertaken significant consultation with AAT staff and members, AAT users, peak bodies, legal assistance providers, advocates and other experts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government thanks those involved in Committee consideration of these important reforms and recommendations to support their passage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Overview of reform</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This package of legislation is transformative. It is ambitious and comprehensive—we are building an institution that is intended to serve the community and drive better decisions for many years to come.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consultation has provided the Government with an in-depth understanding of what works and does not work within the current system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The outcome of this process is legislation that aims to create a unified, cohesive Tribunal with flexible powers and procedures that best meet the needs of applicants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We are proposing to create an adaptive framework with flexibility for the Tribunal to continuously improve its operation, and to support best practice across its entire caseload.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Of course, not all problems can be fixed by legislation. Close attention will be given to implementation, practice, monitoring and evaluation to ensure ongoing improvement into the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Legislative package</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Today the Government is introducing three Bills:</para></quote>
<list>the Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2023, the primary Bill, to establish the new Administrative Review Tribunal and the Administrative Review Council, and</list>
<list>two Consequential and Transitional Bills that together abolish the AAT, transition AAT staff, operations and matters across to the new Tribunal, and make consequential amendments to 248 Commonwealth Acts.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Government recognises the importance of setting up the new Tribunal with the best chance of success and has continued to listen and respond to stakeholder feedback. The Government has moved amendments to implement suggestions raised through the parliamentary scrutiny process, including by civil society stakeholders. The other place has passed the Bill with those amendments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Key features of new Tribunal</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The primary Bill sets out the objective of the new Tribunal, which will guide its operations and the actions of all members and staff.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill's objective is to provide an independent mechanism of review that:</para></quote>
<list>is fair and just</list>
<list>resolves applications in a timely manner, and with as little formality and expense as is consistent with reaching the correct or preferable decision</list>
<list>is accessible and responsive to the diverse needs of parties</list>
<list>improves the transparency and quality of government decision-making, and</list>
<list>promotes public trust and confidence in the Tribunal.</list>
<quote><para class="block">To ensure it is able to achieve this objective, the Bill would establish a Tribunal with the following key features:</para></quote>
<list>a user-focused design, including simpler and more consistent processes, and an emphasis on non-adversarial approaches to resolving applications</list>
<list>a suite of powers and procedures—largely harmonised across the Tribunal—to respond flexibly to changing caseloads</list>
<list>mechanisms to identify, escalate and report on systemic issues in administrative decision-making, including through a new guidance and appeals panel</list>
<list>a simple membership structure with clear qualification requirements and role descriptions for each level of membership</list>
<list>clear and delineated roles and responsibilities for those who hold leadership positions in the Tribunal</list>
<list>a transparent and merit-based appointment process for members, and</list>
<list>powers for the President to manage the performance, conduct and professional development of members.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Structure and membership</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tribunal will be made up of the President, Deputy Presidents (both Judicial and Non-Judicial), senior members and general members. This streamlined membership structure responds to feedback that the AAT's seven membership levels are confusing and arbitrary.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tribunal's President will have clear functions, including hearing particularly significant and complex matters as a member, managing the business of the Tribunal, managing the performance and conduct of members and consulting with civil society.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A single Chief Executive Officer and Principal Registrar (Principal Registrar), will assist the President to manage the administrative affairs of the Tribunal, and will be responsible for managing corporate and registry services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tribunal will be made up of eight jurisdictional areas:</para></quote>
<list>General</list>
<list>Intelligence and Security</list>
<list>Migration</list>
<list>National Disability Insurance Scheme</list>
<list>Protection</list>
<list>Social Security</list>
<list>Taxation and Business, and</list>
<list>Veterans' and Workers' Compensation.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Within these jurisdictional areas, the President can establish 'lists', led by senior members or Deputy Presidents, to ensure the Tribunal can build specialist knowledge to deal effectively with distinct caseloads.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This structure builds in flexibility to ensure an enduring, responsive foundation for the Tribunal's work into the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Each jurisdictional area will be led by a Non-Judicial Deputy President who will be responsible for identifying and managing trends in and changes in the caseload of their jurisdictional area, and managing the performance, conduct and professional development of members assigned to that area.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The President will have the power to assign members within the Tribunal to work in different jurisdictional areas. Vesting this power in the President will allow members to be deployed more flexibly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Tribunal Advisory Committee will provide strong collective leadership to the Tribunal. Comprised of the President, Principal Registrar and the jurisdictional area leaders, the Committee will ensure these leaders are individually and jointly responsible for promoting the Tribunal's objective.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Transparent and merit-based selection process</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A transparent and merit-based selection process for members is provided for in the Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The suitability of prospective members (other than Judicial Deputy Presidents) will be assessed through a thorough, competitive, merit-based and publicly-advertised process. The legislation requires the Minister to establish an assessment panel to conduct this assessment process. The Minister cannot recommend a candidate for appointment to the Tribunal unless they have been assessed as suitable by an assessment panel through a merit-based process.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The assessment will consider how well candidates fulfil the skills, expertise, experience and knowledge required to be a member of the Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This assessment must also consider the need for a diversity of skills, expertise, and lived experience, noting that the Tribunal should reflect the community it serves.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Performance, conduct and professional development of members</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill would give the President powers to manage member performance, conduct and professional development.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The power to adequately address allegations of member underperformance, bullying and harassment was noticeably absent from the AAT Act. The Bill provides powers and processes that will help ensure the Tribunal is a safe and respectful workplace, and the public can be confident in the quality of the Tribunal's decision-making.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">User-focused accessible design</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill strengthens the Tribunal's objective of providing independent merits review that is accessible and responsive to the diverse needs of parties, including people with disability and people who do not speak English as a first language (or at all).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation implements a supported decision-making model for people with a disability. It provides that a person may participate in a proceeding by, or with the support of, a litigation 'supporter' and that parties to a proceeding are assumed to have decision-making ability. This presumption cannot be rebutted solely on the basis that a person has a disability.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Enhanced powers and procedures</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill provides the Tribunal with a range of powers and procedures that can be applied flexibly across all jurisdictions within the Tribunal. This will allow the Tribunal to tailor its processes to best suit each matter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also introduces procedures around party participation to make proceedings more flexible and less adversarial. Specifically, the Bill provides a mechanism for decision-makers to elect not to participate in the review process. Some kinds of proceedings will be better suited to a less formal process of review involving only the applicant. The majority of AAT reviews are already conducted in the absence of a decision-maker and the more inquisitorial nature of these reviews is valued by applicants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ability of decision-makers to elect not to participate in proceedings will be subject to limits set out in the Bill, including that the Tribunal may order a decision-maker to participate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Retaining powers and procedures that work</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new Tribunal will also have all of the essential powers, procedures and requirements currently applicable in the AAT.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Social services reviews</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reviews in the Tribunal must be informal, accessible and quick, and responsive to the diverse needs of parties. The speed, informality and non-adversarial nature of the current AAT first review in social services matters is important to retain under the new model.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has listened to stakeholder feedback that it is important to retain a second review 'by right' for matters where two-tier review currently exists before the AAT.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That is why the legislation provides a pathway to seek second review for parties in social services decisions who are dissatisfied with the outcome of the first review. Second review is intended to support a smoother transition to the new Tribunal for this cohort.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government expects that the greater ability to tailor the first review to the particular matter will reduce the reliance on second review over time, while retaining the speed, accessibility and informality of the first review. However, these amendments provide time to ensure the objectives of the new model are being met.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The outcome is to retain the focus on an informal, accessible, trauma-informed first review, with a second chance for people who need it. This pathway complements a range of improvements to ensure that every Tribunal review is as effective and efficient as possible.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Improved administrative decision-making</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A key objective of the Tribunal will be to improve the quality and transparency of decision-making across government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill achieves this important objective in a number of ways, including by re-establishing the Administrative Review Council. This was a key recommendation of the Robodebt Royal Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Council will comprise members with administrative law expertise and knowledge of the needs of people significantly affected by government decisions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tribunal's senior leadership will also be directly responsible for identifying and monitoring systemic issues in government decision-making, and bringing them to the attention of government and the Administrative Review Council.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The President's functions include engaging with civil society on the performance of the Tribunal's functions, to ensure that users' voices are heard directly by the most senior leaders in the Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also strengthens requirements for the publication of Tribunal decisions, in line with the recommendations of the Robodebt Royal Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Guidance and appeals panel</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill establishes a guidance and appeals panel within the Tribunal to resolve matters raising systemic issues and review Tribunal decisions that may be affected by error. This will promote consistent Tribunal decision making and more rapid responses to emerging issues.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The guidance and appeals panel will be able to hear matters on appeal that raise a significant issue in administrative decision-making or where the decision of the Tribunal may contain a material error.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The President may also refer a matter to the guidance and appeals panel if it raises an issue of significance to administrative decision-making.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A decision of the guidance and appeals panel on a systemic issue will provide clarity for others seeking review and will enhance the quality of future administrative decisions, both by the original decision-maker and by the Tribunal, on similar issues. Tribunal members will be required to treat these decisions as guidance decisions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Conclusion</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Before I conclude, I would like to thank, on behalf of the Government, the many organisations and individuals who have contributed to the development of this legislation, including the members of the Expert Advisory Group, staff, members and users of the AAT and the many legal assistance providers, advocates and other experts who have made submissions to, or met with, the Attorney-General's Department and the two parliamentary committees that have considered the Bills.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I also want to thank all of the officers at the Attorney-General's Department who have worked on these bills for their excellent work.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This legislation represents an opportunity to significantly improve Australia's administrative review system—a key pillar of our democracy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new Tribunal is intended to serve as a safeguard against abuses of power.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is intended to play a vital role in protecting the rights and interests of members of the community, and ensuring that government and the public service act within the bounds of the law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is intended to lead to better government and better government decision-making.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As the Robodebt Royal Commission noted:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Effective merits review is an essential part of the legal framework that protects the rights and interests of individuals; it also promotes government accountability and plays a broader important role in improving the quality and consistency of government decisions.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With this legislation, the Government is seeking to restore trust and confidence in Australia's system of merits review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After listening to the commentary on the legislation while it was being considered in the other place, the Government refined the bills through enhancements to appointment processes, the mechanism for review and the model for social security and other social services appeals. The other place supported this legislation and passed it with those enhancements. I now look forward to the support of the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend the bill to the Senate and present the accompanying explanatory memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW TRIBUNAL (CONSEQUENTIAL AND TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS NO. 1) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No.1) Bill 2023 supports the establishment of the new Administrative Review Tribunal (Tribunal), which will be created by the Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2023 (the ART Bill).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It makes consequential and transitional amendments to 138 Commonwealth Acts, covering approximately 93 per cent of the Tribunal's caseload. Those amendments are needed to effectively implement this significant reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The second consequential and transitional Bill makes technical amendments to 110 Acts which refer to the AAT. Decisions under these other Acts collectively account for approximately seven per cent of the AAT's jurisdiction by caseload.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Abolishing the AAT</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The first Consequential and Transitional Bill repeals the AAT Act and other legislative provisions that provide for the operation of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal. The Administrative Review Tribunal, established by the ART Bill, will replace it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Consequential amendments </inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill contains consequential amendments to Acts in 14 Commonwealth portfolios. These include Social Services, Treasury, Veterans' Affairs and Home Affairs, as well as matters affecting the National Intelligence Community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes in this Consequential and Transitional Bill focus on addressing the highest-volume caseloads within the Tribunal and the most complex consequential amendments. They also make simple but essential reference changes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Migration Act will be amended to harmonise and improve the review process for migration and protection visa applicants. To provide for more effective and efficient reviews, the exhaustive statement of the natural justice hearing rule will be adjusted so that it applies in limited, critical, areas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Immigration Assessment Authority, which provides a 'fast track' style of review for certain protection visa applicants, will be abolished. These applicants will have their matters reviewed in the same way as any other protection visa applicant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The reform significantly standardises the availability of Tribunal powers and procedures for migration and protection matters, supporting consistency and collaboration across the Tribunal. This includes the ability to hold directions hearings, case conferences and to use broader dismissal powers, directions powers, and summons powers. Administrative and procedural tasks will be able to be delegated to registrars and staff.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is no secret that the Migration and Refugee Division of the AAT is beset by delays. The Nixon Report found that these delays were 'motivating bad actors to take advantage by lodging increasing numbers of non-genuine applications for protection'. This has come at a cost to people in genuine need of protection and to the broader Australian community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Together with the changes introduced by the Administrative Review Tribunal Bill and the government's recent appointment of over 90 additional members, the changes to the Migration Act in this Consequential and Transitional Bill will give the new Tribunal the tools it needs to swiftly resolve unmeritorious applications that cause delays in the migration system without sacrificing fairness for genuine applicants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Services and NDIS</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In accordance with stakeholder feedback, the primary legislation retains a pathway for applicants to seek second review for parties in social services decisions who are dissatisfied with the outcome of the first review. The Consequential and Transitional Bill contains amendments to ensure that the Tribunal operates as intended when providing second review for social services applicants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The second review pathway would be available instead of the appeals function of the guidance and appeals panel under Part 5 of the primary Bill. The President of the Tribunal may still refer an application for review of a social services decision to the guidance and appeals panel on the basis it raises an issue of significance to administrative decision-making, on either first or second review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Consequential and Transitional Bill also updates references in the National Disability Insurance Scheme Act, to ensure reviews of these decisions can continue in the new Tribunal. The new Tribunal is focused on flexible, informal and accessible reviews, and has the power to appoint litigation supporters—where needed—to assist people who do not have decision-making ability to participate meaningfully in Tribunal proceedings. The Tribunal is expressly required to promote accessibility in proceedings, ensuring that parties can effectively participate, and to be responsive to the diverse needs of parties to the proceedings.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Treasury portfolio</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A range of modifications which currently apply for taxation and charity matters in the AAT will be retained to, among other things, protect tax revenue collection, and to uphold longstanding core tax principles and practices. For example:</para></quote>
<list>mandating private hearings to protect taxpayer confidentiality</list>
<list>retaining rules which require the initial lodgement with the Tribunal of all documents that are necessary to the review (rather than all documents relevant to the review), and</list>
<list>maintaining rules which provide that the applicant has the burden of proof for tax and charity matters, to ensure the workability of such proceedings and consistency with Australia's tax system being based on self-assessment.</list>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Veterans' reviews</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The arrangements for veterans' matters that currently apply in relation to the AAT are retained in the context of the new Tribunal, including the ability to seek review in the Tribunal following consideration by the Veterans' Review Board. Given the complex nature of the issues relating to the determination of liability and compensation, modifications such as application time limits will continue to apply, to ensure veterans and their dependants are not disadvantaged.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Security matters</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Provisions setting out protections for matters involving national security information are contained across various Acts and will be harmonised to ensure clarity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Transitional amendments</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Consequential and Transitional Bill also facilitates the smooth transition from the AAT to the new Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill makes provision for institutional and corporate arrangements, such as the transfer of staff, assets, liabilities and records from the AAT to the new Tribunal. The Bill provides that all ongoing and non-ongoing staff will transfer to the new Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It provides clarity by ensuring that applications that have already been made to the AAT, or proceedings already in progress, will automatically transfer to the new Tribunal when it commences operations. Parties with matters in the Tribunal at the time of transition will be notified, and will not need to reapply to have their matter continue.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">AAT members who are judges will have their appointments transferred to the ART. Moreover, AAT members (including the President) who have been appointed since 1 January 2023 through a transparent and merit-based selection process will also transition to the Tribunal for the remainder of their terms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">All other current members have been given the opportunity to apply for roles in the new Tribunal through the merit-based appointment process that has already commenced.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Current full-time AAT members who are appointed to the new Tribunal and whose appointments would have continued beyond the commencement date will have their remuneration preserved at their current AAT rate for up to four months, unless their remuneration would be higher in the ART.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Current full-time members who are not appointed to the new Tribunal and whose appointments would have continued beyond the commencement date of the new Tribunal will be paid an amount equivalent to up to four months of their current salary.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This arrangement ensures that compensation payments are fair and reasonable but not excessive.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Conclusion</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Consequential and Transitional Bill makes essential consequential amendments to legislation across the Commonwealth, and outlines robust transitional arrangements needed to support the smooth establishment of the new Administrative Review Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also harmonises, streamlines and enhances the operation of provisions across a range of jurisdictional areas, simplifying the process for applicants and promoting a more efficient, accessible and cohesive tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend the bill to the Senate and present the accompanying explanatory memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ADMINISTRATIVE REVIEW TRIBUNAL (CONSEQUENTIAL AND TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS NO. 2) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Provisions No.2) Bill 2024 forms part of the package of Bills that would abolish the Administrative Appeals Tribunal and establish the Administrative Review Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It supports the establishment of the new Tribunal, which will be created by the Administrative Review Tribunal Bill 2023. Together with the Administrative Review Tribunal (Consequential and Transitional Amendments No.1) Bill 2023, this Bill would also make the consequential and transitional amendments needed to effectively implement the reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consequential Bill 2 makes consequential amendments to 110 Commonwealth Acts to ensure continuity for the Tribunal and its users. Decisions under these Acts collectively amount to approximately seven per cent of the AAT's jurisdiction by caseload.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Consequential amendments</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill contains consequential amendments to Acts across the Commonwealth, as well as amendments to a number of Commonwealth Acts requiring State and Territory consultation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes in the Bill are predominantly technical amendments that will ensure consistent terminology, concepts, structure and other policy settings. The changes also ensure that the new Tribunal has the same jurisdiction as the AAT and that various provisions operate in substantively the same way as they operate in the AAT.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consequential Bill 2 would make changes to harmonise and streamline provisions where appropriate. It also would implement changes to the review pathway for preventative detention orders, and allow external merits review of decisions not to provide evidence of a person's Australian citizenship, under the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline><inline font-style="italic">Citizenship Act 2007</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Standardising processes</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Where possible, Consequential Bill 2 would repeal special procedures in other Acts, so that the default provisions in the ART Bill would apply.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The use of standard procedures in the Tribunal would better support users, with increased similarity and predictability in how their matters progress through the Tribunal. It would reduce complexity within the Tribunal, which means there will be more scope to use shared technology, forms, staff and member resources, and create greater efficiencies than is currently possible within the AAT.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In circumstances where the Tribunal's proposed standard powers and procedures need to respond to the unique features of a particular caseload, Consequential Bill 2 would make the necessary amendments to other Acts to preserve existing arrangements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We have the benefit of nearly 50 years of experience since the AAT was established, and over eight years since it was amalgamated with multiple other tribunals in 2015. We also have the benefit of extensive consultation over the last year on what does, and what does not, work within the current system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Preventative Detention Orders </inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consequential Bill 2 would remove the administrative review pathway for preventative detention order decisions, and leave this entirely to the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the remedies currently available to an affected individual through the administrative review mechanism are also available, and would continue to be available, through judicial review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Among other things, these changes address the risk that sections 105.51(5) and (7) of the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code</inline> could be construed as vesting federal judicial power in a body other than a court, contrary to Chapter III of the Constitution. They do this by ensuring that the power to award compensation to a person for false imprisonment is only exercised by the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Merits review for evidence of Australian citizenship</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill would confer jurisdiction on the new Tribunal to review a decision to refuse to provide a person with evidence of their Australian citizenship under the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Citizenship Act 2007</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Allowing the new Tribunal to review those types of decisions would be consistent with the review pathways available for other citizenship and migration related decisions. It would provide applicants with an accessible independent review process. This is a simple change we can make to ensure that people affected by these decisions have an effective administrative review pathway in the Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">State and Territory consultation requirements</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, Consequential Bill 2 would also make minor amendments to 14 Commonwealth Acts which are subject to requirements for the Commonwealth to consult with, or seek the agreement of, the States and Territories before introducing amendments into Parliament. These requirements arise from intergovernmental agreements. The Commonwealth has satisfied these requirements and appreciates the cooperation from the States and Territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The creation of the Tribunal may require the States and Territories to make consequential amendments to their own legislation. The Commonwealth has worked closely with the States and Territories to assist them to identify and progress any amendments that may be required.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Conclusion </inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consequential Bill 2 makes technical and essential consequential amendments to legislation across the Commonwealth, ensuring a smooth transition to the new Tribunal. The Bill completes the package of legislation that is required to establish a new and much improved Administrative Review Tribunal—the most important reform of the federal system of administrative review for decades.</para></quote>
<para>Ordered that further consideration of the second reading of these bills be adjourned to the first sitting day of the next period of sittings, in accordance with standing order 111.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>78</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee</title>
          <page.no>78</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>78</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I call for a division.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the reference to the Environment and Communications References Committee of Glencore's proposed carbon capture and storage project be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:18]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Fawcett)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D. N.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>18</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>79</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024, Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>79</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7087" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7121" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>79</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll try to direct this discussion back to the bills. I want to thank all senators who contributed to the debate on these bills. The government also thanks the opposition for their bipartisanship and constructive engagement in progressing these bills through the parliament. The Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024 and the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 represent critical reforms to Australia's protective security framework. In the complex and challenging strategic environment that we face today, preventing our defence technologies, capabilities and information from falling into the hands of our adversaries is paramount.</para>
<para>At the same time, these reforms represent a significant opportunity to unlock the benefits of AUKUS, helping establish a seamless industrial base between Australia, the United States and the United Kingdom. These reforms will achieve this by establishing a new licence-free environment among AUKUS partners through a national exemption for the United States and the United Kingdom from Australia's export control licensing requirements under the Defence Trade Controls Act. This will revolutionise collaboration and defence trade, unlocking investment and growth opportunities for Australian industry, research and science.</para>
<para>The government has considered carefully the need for an effective legal framework for Australia's export control regime, including the ability to prosecute offences reasonably and successfully. For each offence in the Defence Trade Controls Act the prosecution must prove that the supply or service is a constitutional defence and strategic goods list supply or constitutional DSGL service. This requirement does not go to the substance of the offence, but rather ensures that there is a legal basis for regulating a supply or service.</para>
<para>The bill applies absolute liability to the single element of the offences in the bill. It does not apply absolute liability to the whole offence. Absolute liability only requires the prosecution to prove that the element of the offence was physically engaged in. It is appropriate to apply absolute liability to this element of each of the offences in the bill as it concerns a mere matter of fact about the underlying supply or service being made. Absolute liability does not apply to any other elements of any of the offences in the bill. For other elements of the offences in the bill, the prosecution will still be required to prove both a physical and fault element beyond a reasonable doubt.</para>
<para>The safeguarding Australia's military secrets bill does not seek to limit any Australian's employment opportunities. It extends Australia's already robust legislation and policies further by enhancing the protections around our defence information and technology and that of our allies. It adopts a proactive approach by establishing an authorisation framework to regulate the performance of work in specified training to a foreign military, foreign government or foreign government entity.</para>
<para>The reforms in these bills strike the balance between protecting our national security while supporting our economic innovation and international research collaboration. We should understand how significant these reforms will be. It is expected to provide a net benefit to the economy of $614 million over 10 years.</para>
<para>We are grateful for the constructive way industry and the higher education sector have engaged with the government. We also appreciate their contributions to the Senate Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade's inquiry into the bills. The government has made sensible amendments to address the feedback we received. As the chief executive of the Group of Eight, Vicki Thomson, wrote in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> on 19 March 2024:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms are not a "nice to have", they are a must-have.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">… … …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed changes to the Defence Trade Controls Act will ensure Australia achieves the required comparability with that of the US. They will be a game changer for our university research sector.</para></quote>
<para>These bills will ensure Australia, the United Kingdom and the United States can collaborate, innovate and trade at the speed and scale required to meet the challenging strategic circumstances, and they will build Australia's long-term national defence by supporting our AUKUS commitment. I commend the bills to the chamber.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bills be now read a second time.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:33] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Hughes) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bills read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>80</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the amendment on sheet 2485:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 2, page 29 (after line 26), at the end of the Schedule, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Defence Act 1903</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6 Subsection 4(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">IGADF official</inline> (short for Inspector-General Australian Defence Force official) means:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Inspector-General ADF; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a person covered by subsection 110O(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7 At the end of Part VII</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">85 Identification of current or former members of the ADF Special Forces</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person commits an offence:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the person identifies a person as being a current or former member of the ADF Special Forces; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the identification is not of the Special Operations Commander or such other persons as the Chief of the Defence Force determines; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the person makes public any information from which the identity of a current or former member of the ADF Special Forces could reasonably be inferred, or any information that could reasonably lead to the identity of such a person being established; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Minister or the Chief of the Defence Force has not consented in writing to the information being made public; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the information has not been made public by means of broadcasting or reporting proceedings of the Parliament as authorised by the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty: Imprisonment for 10 years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Exceptions</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person does not commit an offence against paragraph (1)(a) if the person identifies the current or former member of the ADF Special Forces to an IGADF official, for the purpose of the IGADF official exercising a power, or performing a function or duty, as an IGADF official.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: A defendant bears an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (2): see subsection 13.3(3) of the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A person does not commit an offence against paragraph (1)(a) if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is an IGADF official; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the relevant conduct is engaged in by the person for the purpose of exercising powers, or performing functions or duties, as an IGADF official.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Despite subsection 13.3(3) of the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code</inline>, in a prosecution for an offence against paragraph (1)(a) of this section, a defendant does not bear an evidential burden in relation to the matter in subsection (3) of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Extended geographical jurisdiction</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Section 15.4 of the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code </inline>(extended geographical jurisdiction—category D) applies to an offence against subsection (1) of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Institution of prosecution</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) A prosecution for an offence against subsection (1) of this section may be instituted only by, or with the consent of, the Attorney-General or a person acting under the Attorney-General's direction.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) However:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a person charged with an offence against subsection (1) of this section may be arrested, or a warrant for the person's arrest may be issued and executed; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) such a person may be remanded in custody or on bail;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">even if the consent of the Attorney-General or a person acting under the Attorney-General's direction has not been obtained, but no further proceedings are to be taken until that consent has been obtained.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Nothing in subsection (6) or (7) prevents the discharging of the accused if proceedings are not continued within a reasonable time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Definitions</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9)In this section:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">member of the ADF Special Forces</inline> means a person who is serving in a unit of the Australian Defence Force that conducts special operations.</para></quote>
<para>I brought this amendment forward before. This time the government and coalition will find the courage with both hands and do the right thing by our veterans. This amendment is about protecting our Special Air Service veterans. When they sign up, they are promised by Defence that their identities will be protected. Despite this promise, this does not happen. They have been lied to for years by the very top echelon—their commanders—who should be protecting them. I just want to make it quite clear that this amendment is actually not complicated; it is just a commonsense measure to keep them safe, especially our special forces veterans' families. It is a simple amendment that allows diggers to have their identity protected, like they have been told would happen for their entire careers, for many, many years. It is a big part of the reason why these special forces personnel sign up. When you have family, it is ingrained in you that you will put the military first before your family. That is a big commitment. It is a big sacrifice when you are prepared to put your country—and have your life taken for your country—before your family. I cannot stress that enough in here this afternoon.</para>
<para>This amendment will make it a criminal offence to release the identity of those personnel that we ask to conduct the most dangerous operations that nobody else will. Nobody else will line up and do them—nobody. They are not lining up today to do them, and I will come back to that. This amendment seeks to give those personnel the same protection as an officer of ASIS. We're not asking for anything special; we are just asking for the same treatment. Last year a special forces soldier had his name splashed across the newspapers. His identity was revealed and, when his name was put out there, it put his life at risk, not to mention what his children have gone through. Thanks for serving your country.</para>
<para>Let's be honest, we also have ISIS cells running around Australia. If you think splashing the names of veterans across the newspapers does not put them and their families in danger you are delusional—beyond delusional. You have now put their lives in danger because you did not protect them. When the ISIS enemy come after us, they do not give a stuff. They're happy to take our kids out. Have you seen what has happened in Russia? They have no humanity, ISIS. They do not care. If you do not see the way that they played their role in the war in the Middle East then have another look, go back through. Have a look at what history served us up. They just do not care.</para>
<para>Special forces personnel are sometimes required to engage in secret operations in other countries, but of course we do not ask any questions about that. We would not dare because we are too bloody scared to ask. We don't want to know the dirty crap they are doing for this country and that is why we don't ask, because we don't want to know, because they go beyond what is required of them. We do not want to know because we ask them to do the things that we would never ask ourselves or anybody else to do, and that is the truth in the chamber today. That is the truth about it.</para>
<para>This amendment will put an end to veterans having their identities released. Let's talk about the elephant in the room. In one corner we're talking about national security and in the other corner people are not enlisting in our military. They are not enlisting. Here is a reality check: they are not enlisting. I'll tell you what, they sure as hell are not lining up to be in our special forces anymore, are they? Once upon a time, the military was competitive. You'd have hundreds of them lining up. Well, you've done your dash with them because you haven't protected them, and you haven't looked after them. They're not dying to go to Western Australia as they used to.</para>
<para>If you want to talk about national security in this country, then you better have a look at where the white elephant in the room is. You better have a look at the way you're treating them, because I can tell you that I have put it out there and will continue to say: 'Don't join the special forces because the government won't look after you. You are not protected; you never will be. You're a digger; you're nothing special, because that's what they're treating you like in here. There is nothing special for you or your families for your commitment.' If it isn't senior commanders, it is politicians who are prepared to chuck them under the bus. They're the same people we ask to make the ultimate sacrifice and do all the dirty crap that we don't want to do or think about. We don't want to ask questions because we don't want to know.</para>
<para>I'm simply asking you to give them the same treatment as ASIS. Why is ASIS so damn special compared to our special forces? Why do they get special treatment? Why? Who's putting their lives on the line here? It's not ASIS. This is all the amendment does, okay? It keeps their identities hidden for the safety of them and their families. That's all I'm asking, and that's all they are asking—to have the same treatment as ASIS.</para>
<para>Guys, you really have no choice here. You either give a stuff about our national security or you don't. If you want people to join our special forces, then you better start treating them a lot better than you have been treating them, because they've had enough of the rubbish. You have a choice here today. I want to make it very clear in Western Australia that the Greens will not support you. They are not behind you. They don't want to support you, okay? Obviously, they cannot see the commitment that you make and where it puts your kids. Obviously, they don't care about your kids either and what happens to them That's where we are at. The major parties have a choice this afternoon. You have a choice. They will not forgive you in the next federal election. It is 14 months away. Why don't you start looking after our special forces the same way they look after our Australians? Start looking after them properly. I am asking you to put this amendment through this afternoon.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>While I appreciate very much Senator Lambie's interest in and commitment to the set of issues that surround the central proposition that she has made, we are not in a position to support the amendments.</para>
<para>It is the case that the protected identity status is very important. It is not the case, Senator Lambie, that people who perform functions for ASIS are not in danger. In the passion of your comments, I don't think that's what you meant to convey. These issues are of importance. However, this bill is for the purposes of establishing a work authorisation permit system for former defence staff members seeking employment for or on behalf of a foreign government. It is not the right place for an amendment which goes to the protection of the identities of defence personnel.</para>
<para>The Defence policy known as the Defence Protected Identity status is afforded on an operational requirement basis to certain individuals who hold specific roles or work on specific operations in the ADF. As you know, this is to protect current sensitive defence capabilities and effects, our operations, the partners we operate with as well as to safeguard the security of individuals and their families. I can advise the chamber and Senator Lambie that, irrespective of whether a person holds a protected identity status or not, it is Defence policy and practice to only release official content or make public comment that will not compromise an individual's privacy, in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988. We are, of course, as Senator Lambie knows, happy to continue to engage on this set of questions with her in her office.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Likewise, in the coalition we absolutely recognise the passion and commitment that Senator Lambie has towards the issues that she has outlined here in the chamber this evening and in the amendment that she has circulated in the Committee of the Whole. The coalition will be opposing this amendment. We fundamentally do support the prompt passage of this bill. It's an important piece of legislation alongside the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024. This legislation will keep Australia in sync and at pace with AUKUS partners and will ensure the development of security and export frameworks that support the implementation of AUKUS. We don't want to do anything in this chamber that will delay the passage of those bills. We also don't think that this bill is necessarily the best vehicle to address the issues that Senator Lambie has been raising, but certainly we are not ruling out progressing discussions with Senator Lambie on an issue that we know she is very passionate about. The question is whether this bill is the right place to do it. We submit that it is not and, like I said, we will be opposing this amendment this evening.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—Can you just make sure that the JLN is recorded in support.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a few quick questions to the minister. Minister, in the course of the inquiry, Defence said in relation to the Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024 that their analysis was that, as a result of this bill, there would only be dozens of additional permits required per year. Does the government seriously still say that? If it is not dozens, how many will be required?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is the government 's view that the passage of this legislation will result in fewer applications being made, because the requirements will be simpler and more straightforward.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question was about Mr Nockels's evidence. Of course, Mr Nockels is apparently the senior defence expert inside the department who deals with this legislation and will be dealing with the permits. His evidence to the Senate inquiry was that, as a result of this legislation, only dozens of additional permits would be required per year. Given the higher education sector and industry are saying it's probably tens of thousands, does the government back in Mr Nockels, or is he just making it up?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wouldn't go with the pejorative. Mr Nockels would have been giving evidence on the basis of his expertise. In 2022 permit applications for exports to the United Kingdom and the United States accounted for 900 of the 3,000 applications assessed. The national exemptions for the United Kingdom and the United States will mean that almost a third of these export permit applications are no longer required. Broadly, the reforms in the bill are expected to provide an estimated net benefit to the Australian economy of over $600 million over the 10-year period that's been assessed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That $600 million figure is interesting but totally unrelated to my question. My question was not how many existing permits will not be required within the bubble of the United States, the UK and Australia. My question is: how many permits will be required as a result of this legislation for all of the work that's currently undertaken in universities and industry which will be impacted by the additional controls to make us compliant with US weapons export control legislation? Mr Nockels said 'dozens'. We asked on notice for any evidence that backed up Mr Nockels's statement of 'dozens', and we got a refusal to answer on the basis of national security. So again I ask you: do you support Mr Nockels's evidence that it's dozens, or is it more likely what higher education and industry have said, which is potentially tens of thousands of permits? How many?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just did take you through the numbers. Looking backwards, the assessment is that permit applications for export to the United Kingdom and the United States accounted for 900 of the 3,000 applications assessed. It is, I think, not possible to predict how many applications are made. It is possible to say that the requirements for applications will be simpler and more straightforward and that, if any assessment of what has previously occurred suggests that the national exemptions for the United Kingdom and the United States will mean that almost a third of those export permit applications will no longer be required, that's a reasonable basis for making some assessment about what the future requirement for applications will be.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The problem with your answer is that it doesn't address the question. What the higher education sector and industry have said is, 'Sure, we may not need a permit for the modest amount of work we do with the United States and the UK, but we'll absolutely need a permit every time we collaborate with India, every time we collaborate with Taiwan, every time we collaborate with Indonesia, every time we collaborate with Belgium and every time we collaborate with Germany.' I could go on—it's the rest of the world. Every time they get a research scientist who's not from within the bubble, every time they want to collaborate and share research on anything that might touch upon national security with any other part of the world, they're going to need a permit under the legislation. The higher education sector and industry have said that that's possibly tens of thousands of permits a year. Mr Nockels, in evidence that no-one could believe, said that it was dozens. Surely the government has a better answer than what it gave on notice, which was:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Impact Analysis acknowledges that some of the data obtained to inform the analysis cannot be released publicly due to the security classification of the information and the permitted legal reasons for using the data.</para></quote>
<para>How many, Minister?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the jurisdictions where the exemption will not be in place, there is already a system in place in relation to those jurisdictions. This will provide the regime that is set out in the bill, and the response of the university sector has been overwhelmingly positive. Vicki Thomson, the Chief Executive of the Group of Eight, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms are not a "nice to have", they are a must-have.</para></quote>
<para>She said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed changes to the Defence Trade Controls Act will ensure Australia achieves the required comparability with that of the US. They will be a game changer for our university research sector.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How on earth could this legislation be compliant with the ITAR requirements from the United States, which are relatively strict on protecting defence secrets and defence technology, if Mr Nockels is to be believed and there will only be dozens of permits required in circumstances where Australia has tens and tens of thousands of collaborations with countries outside of the bubble, which on the face of the bill would require a permit? You can't be compliant with the US ITAR requirements if you're setting up a regime which is only requiring dozens of permits. You can't have it both ways.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Essentially, this arrangement sets up a licence-free arrangement in terms of the AUKUS partners. That's how it complies. There will be, of course, and there is in this framework in relation to the rest of the world, but it does mean that there is comparability between the three systems.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, to be ITAR compliant and to allow for the free trade and the free flow of military secrets from the United States to Australian and from Australia to the United States, the United States have said that we have to set up a system that secures information on shore. If they're going to share their military secrets with us, the United States have said, 'We need the controls so that those secrets won't be shared with the rest of the world.' That's the whole purpose of the bill.</para>
<para>To do that, researchers and industry are required to get a whole bunch of permits and approvals if they're going to do research with foreign students or foreign collaborators outside of the bubble. The higher education sector and industry have said that involves possibly tens of thousands of permits, which would be a real burden on their industry and a real problem. Mr Nockels, in extraordinary evidence on behalf of Defence, said it would only be dozens of permits. I'm asking you again, do you have a number? It can't be what Mr Nockels says; otherwise, you're not compliant with the US ITAR requirements, which is what's driving this whole bill. Surely you have a number?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure I follow your line of argument. It is clear there will be a different requirement in terms of the United Kingdom and the United States. The compliance burden faced by industry, universities and our research sector will be significantly lower, while ensuring that controls adequately address our national security requirements. The reforms aren't intended to prevent foreign nationals from working with Australia on DSGL goods or technologies, nor are they intended to prevent foreign students or academics from engaging with Australian academic institutions. There will be less of a requirement for applications in relation to both of those countries and there will be a framework that applies to the rest of the world, just as there is a framework today.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, it is remarkable that this parliament is about to rush through legislation, and yet the government doesn't have a single answer on how many permits are going to be required—not even a guesstimate. I understand where we've got to. It seems to be that you have no idea how many permits will be required, but you'll nevertheless just rush through the legislation and hope that higher education and industry can deal with it. I get that's where the government is, and it is one of the reasons why the Greens are opposing the bill.</para>
<para>I want to ask you a question regarding the fundamental research definition, which was pulled together very hurriedly and is now being put in by way of, I think, nine pages of hurried amendments to the bill. The definition of 'fundamental research' provides that it's:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… basic or applied research conducted in circumstances where the results of the research</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) are intended for public disclosure, or would ordinarily be published or shared broadly; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) are not subject to any restrictions on disclosure (however imposed) for purposes connected with the security or defence of Australia or any foreign country.</para></quote>
<para>What does the government intend by the phrase 'however imposed'? Is it imposed by bureaucratic arrangements, is it imposed by policy or are you talking about it being imposed by legislative controls or is it just anything?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the sequence, it is not the case here that we're going to provide guesstimates to the Senate, despite your invitation to do that. In relation to that offence, that definition has been co-designed with the university sector. Examples of research that would be considered to constitute fundamental research include basic and applied research in science and engineering, research that is captured by the public domain exclusion, and education and teaching.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>FIRST SPEECH</title>
        <page.no>85</page.no>
        <type>FIRST SPEECH</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ghosh, Senator Varun</title>
          <page.no>85</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Before I call Senator Ghosh, I remind honourable senators that this is his first speech; therefore, I ask that the usual courtesies be extended to him.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GHOSH</name>
    <name.id>257613</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I acknowledge the traditional custodians of the land on which we meet, the Ngunnawal and Ngambri people, and pay my respects to their elders past and present. Serving the people of Western Australia in the Commonwealth Senate is an honour and a privilege. I am grateful to the Western Australian Labor Party for trusting me with that responsibility. I would like to use this opportunity to tell you a little bit about my background and the experiences that have led me to want to serve in this place. I would also like to express my gratitude to the many people who have supported me on that journey. At the outset I pay tribute to my predecessor, Senator Pat Dodson. Senator Dodson has been a champion for justice and a lifelong advocate for Indigenous people and regional and remote Australia. His contributions to Australian life and to this Parliament are immeasurable. As I begin my time in the Senate I take heed of Senator Dodson's words in his first speech:</para>
<quote><para class="block">All of us, regardless of race, culture or gender, share a strong identity as Australians wanting to build a common, tolerant and prosperous future together. If we work to find what we have in common rather than what divides us, I believe that we can be better people; we can build a better Australia; we can build a better place for the next generation together.</para></quote>
<para>I believe in those words and the noble purpose to which they call us.</para>
<para>The earlier generations of my family were born in India. My name is Varun Nagarajan Ghosh, and I am a proud Australian of Indian origin. My grandmother Ammama was a loving mother, an active and popular part of her community, providing help and support to her family and friends. My grandfather Bava lost both his parents as a child and went to work young as a mail-sorter in the post office and then a clerk in a bank, where he rose to the position of general manager. My grandmother Didi Bhai studied and then taught Bengali literature at the Indraprastha College for Women in Delhi and particularly loved the poetry of Tagore. My grandfather Dada Bhai also lost his mother as a child and his father as a teenager. He worked as a clerk in the Calcutta customs office and studied for his commerce degree at night. From there he built an academic career.</para>
<para>My mother, Lakshmi, and father, Soumya, met while studying medicine at the Christian Medical College in Vellore and last year celebrated their 43rd wedding anniversary. They came to Australia when my father won a scholarship to do his PhD at the Australian National University. My mother joined him, commencing her training in paediatrics at Royal Canberra Hospital, where I was born. My mother then specialised in paediatric neurology, with a particular interest in epilepsy, and my father is now an adult neurologist, after devoting significant parts of his career to scientific research. Though not particularly political, my parents believe very strongly in the importance of hard work and the value of education. They have supported each other in their careers, taking turns to pursue opportunities for each of them in different parts of Australia and the world. After Canberra we lived in Kingston, Ontario, where my brother, Gaurav, was born, and then Sydney, Brisbane and New York. We moved to Perth in 1997. Though we lived in various places, my brother and I grew up in a home that was always warm, loving and secure. It was a place where our curiosity was encouraged, books were abundant, and reading and conversation were family pursuits.</para>
<para>My parents' hard work and commitment to our family provided a platform for my life, and I feel a deep sense of gratitude to them both. I am honoured to stand here today as a member of the Australian parliament to say, 'Thank you.' I would also like to thank my brother, Gaurav. Only two years apart, we grew up playing every sport going, including cricket, hockey, soccer, tennis and footy. Gaurav is now a doctor and has always been a calm and dependable source of support and advice.</para>
<para>This country welcomed the Nagarajan Ghosh family with a spirit of generosity that defines Australia and Australians. This generosity is a source of my heartfelt optimism for the future of our nation. At school, political and legal studies classes and involvement in debating and the United Nations youth association sparked interest in the Australian political system and our place in the world. I also made dear friends, and I am glad that Ash, Pete, Ross, Jimmy and others are here today. My interest in school led me to the study of law and political science at the University of Western Australia, where I was captivated by constitutional law and political philosophy. Later, I was fortunate to win a scholarship to do a masters degree in law at the University of Cambridge.</para>
<para>When not squandering my time on the hockey and cricket fields of East Anglia, I continued to explore interests in constitutional theory and jurisprudence, and was influenced, in particular, by John Hart Ely's ideas of democratic integrity and John Rawls's conception of justice as fairness. Rawls said that the first virtue of social institutions is justice, as truth is of systems of thought. But justice cannot be done without acknowledging, plainly and honestly, the truth that people begin their lives from different starting points. This recognition must underpin our efforts to achieve formal and substantive justice in our society. None of us knows, or can choose, who our parents will be, the country or circumstances into which we will be born, or what natural abilities we will have. But we should all have an equal chance to realise our potential and to flourish. Where an Australian starts their life should not determine where they finish it. I am grateful for the many opportunities in my life, so I feel a duty to use every effort to expand educational and economic opportunity in this country. It is a responsibility that I feel deeply, and it will guide my time in this place.</para>
<para>Much of our education is not formal. Some of the most important lessons a young person can learn are encountered on the sporting field. Sporting clubs and the communities that arise around them have been very important parts of my life. We moved around a lot when I was younger, and playing in local cricket and hockey teams gave me a sense of belonging and let me experience the wonderful camaraderie that arises among teammates, playing alongside people of different backgrounds, ages and experiences. Many were eager to impart some earthy life lessons to a young law student. I cherish those moments, and I'm glad some of those teammates are here today. I hasten to add that my enthusiasm for team sport and the joy that it has brought me are no indications of my sporting ability, which might politely be described as 'limited'. On a more serious note, I firmly believe that sporting clubs form a crucial part of the fabric of Australia, and not just sporting clubs. Local and community organisations across the country contribute in myriad ways to the health of our society. Their continued success requires people to have space in their lives to participate. We must, as a society and a parliament, foster an Australia that allows people to play active and engaged roles in community life and in family life. This requires security of work and predictability of hours. It requires safety at work and freedom from financial hardship. It also requires acknowledging that women are more likely to suffer from financial distress and economic insecurity than men and addressing that inequality.</para>
<para>I have been a Labor person for my entire adult life and indeed slightly before that. I joined the Labor Party when I was 17 because I believed that everyone should have access to high-quality education and training and should be paid fairly for the work that they do. Reading about the Hawke and Keating governments, I was drawn to the boldness of their economic reform agenda and their vision of an Australia that is confident in itself and comfortable in our region. At the UWA Labor Club the engaging debates and welcoming people confirmed that I was in the right place.</para>
<para>After a stint as the UWA Labor President and the WA Young Labor President I settled into the pleasant rhythms of party membership, volunteering on election campaigns, participating in policy committees and attending quiz nights, sundowners, doorknocks and branch meetings. My involvement in the Labor Party for more than 21 years has shaped a large part of my life. It has produced enduring friendships and a range of experiences—some good, some bad, but all memorable. I'm glad that friends from the UWA Labor Club and from the WA Labor Party are here this evening.</para>
<para>My working life to this point has been spent as a lawyer. I was drawn to legal practice because I enjoyed the study of law at university and wanted to advocate for clients in court. I began work at Mallesons Stephen Jaques in the banking and then litigation teams and was quickly immersed in the legal problems of the commercial world. It is great to have colleagues and friends from Mallesons here in the gallery and others taking a few brief minutes away from the time sheet to watch from Perth. I also practised law at White & Case in New York, where I was admitted to the New York bar. Working in financial law during a volatile period following the global financial crisis involved long hours negotiating and drafting transaction documents. The experience fostered my belief in a well-regulated financial system that encourages innovation and economic freedom but does not increase moral hazard by forcing taxpayers to bear the cost of financial risk-taking.</para>
<para>After New York I worked in insolvency law reform at the World Bank in Washington DC and also was able to pursue my interest in the stability of systemically important financial institutions. The bank's mission is to end extreme poverty and boost prosperity in a liveable world. Though occasionally bureaucratic, there was an energising spirit of optimism and cooperation at the bank when I was there, and it taught me the importance of placing local communities at the centre of designing and implementing projects.</para>
<para>Missing my family and Australia, I returned to Perth in late 2014, where I rejoined legal practice. For the last six years I have practised as a barrister, acting for a range of businesses large and small and for individuals. I was also briefed to act for trade unions and their members in matters concerning underpayments, wrongful termination and the proliferation of sham enterprise agreements. I am very proud of that work. I sat on level 12 of the chambers with a wonderful collection of civil and criminal barristers whose irreverence and sense of fun made me feel at home. Sir Owen Dixon once said that a barrister enjoys life for but a short interval, the interval between the time when he is doing nothing and the time when he is doing nothing else. Though my work at the bar followed that pattern, I loved the intensity of hearings and trials, the solitude and focus of preparation and the collegiality in the spaces in between. The lawyers and barristers I worked with shared a commitment to the ideals of justice, the rule of law and equality before the law. Yet my work in the law also showed me the legal system's capacity to reflect, reproduce and sometimes exacerbate the economic and other power imbalances that exist within our society. In this place, which is tasked with making laws, we must endeavour to correct those imbalances.</para>
<para>During my working life I've been fortunate to pursue two other passions: teaching and writing. Teaching constitutional law and administrative law at the University of Western Australia was incredibly rewarding. Teaching a subject, in some ways, is the best way to understand it, and I hope to draw on this experience in my work in the Senate in communicating what we do here to those I represent and by learning from the people that I meet.</para>
<para>Peter Rose gave me the chance to write critical pieces for the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Book Review</inline>, and I was grateful for this creative outlet away from the law. I also owe thanks to Jamie McNamara, whose devotion to his craft has always been an inspiration. I particularly appreciated that the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Book Review</inline> was committed to paying young reviewers for their writing. It is essential to the nurture and survival of young artists, writers and performers that they receive fair payment for their work.</para>
<para>Quite apart from my profession, the conservation of our natural environment, its beauty and diversity are close to my heart. I've loved hiking and bushwalking in national parks and wilderness areas in Australia and around the world. My state of Western Australia has stunning natural and climatic variation, from the southernmost parts to the north-west and the spaces in between.</para>
<para>Western Australia is home to eight of Australia's 15 biodiversity hotspots, and also hosts three World Heritage listed sites. These form part of the natural wonders of our state, but also make Western Australia vulnerable to the effects of climate change including habitat and species loss, and the rise of extreme weather events and natural disasters.</para>
<para>I'm proud that the Albanese Labor government is committed to tackling climate change. It is vital, in that effort, that we ensure the measures implemented are realistic, evidence based and equitable. Environmental protection and economic development can, and indeed must, be complementary in order to ensure that Australia remains a great place to live and to work. To achieve many of the aims of the Labor Party and the Labor movement and the aims I've mentioned this evening, Australia needs a strong economy. Improving productivity and fostering a diverse competitive private sector are fundamental to creating high-quality jobs and economic growth. A strong economy is essential for improving the lives of working people. If there are winners in economic downturns, they are not working people or those who suffer disadvantage.</para>
<para>I will speak now of the vast and vibrant state of Western Australia which is my home. I am proud to represent my state in Canberra, although I am also conscious of the enormous responsibility that brings. In the past, Western Australians have felt distant and sometimes neglected by Canberra and by our compatriots over east. Our state has remarkable opportunities, but distinct challenges. Western Australia occupies one-third of Australia's total land mass and has the longest mainland coastline of any state or territory. This size offers us bountiful resources and space, but also makes the provision of infrastructure and services more complicated, particularly in regional and remote parts of the state.</para>
<para>WA also has a distinctive outlook on the world. Perth is Australia's Indian Ocean capital, and it is closer to Jakarta than it is to Canberra. It also sits in the most populous time zone in the world, and we inhabit this space at a time when the focus of the world is turning to the Indo-Pacific. We are an export-oriented economy—mainly minerals, energy and agricultural products—which accounts for 50 per cent of our gross state product.</para>
<para>Western Australian goods exports account for 46 per cent of Australia's overall goods exports, and around four per cent of the nation's GDP passes through the port of Port Hedland. Our export focus makes open trade routes and freedom of navigation crucial to our economy. Our defence forces, our alliance structures and our diplomatic initiatives all play vital roles in ensuring and maintaining a rules based order in our region and around the world. Western Australia's resources industry has brought significant economic benefit to the state and to the nation, and Sandgropers are rightly proud of our contributions to the national economy.</para>
<para>It is refreshing to have a federal government, the Albanese Labor government, that makes investing in Western Australia a priority, particularly when it comes to economic infrastructure and education. Ultimately WA's success is Australia's success.</para>
<para>It is an extraordinary honour to serve in this chamber, but I did not get here on my own. I would like to acknowledge the members of the WA Labor Party and convey my gratitude for their support. The advice and counsel of Chris Evans, Gary Gray, Kate Doust, Bill Johnston, Ben Wyatt, Lorna Clarke, Tim Hammond, Lauren Cayoun, Tony Buti and Matthew Swinbourn has been invaluable.</para>
<para>Though born in Canberra, I have never worked here before now. The warmth of the welcome that I have received from my parliamentary colleagues—particularly my Western Australian colleagues—has made that transition easier, and for that I say thank you. I'm grateful for the support of Ben Harris, Jo Clossick and the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees Association of WA; Brad Gandy and the Australian Workers Union; Tim Dawson and the Transport Workers' Union; and Mick Buchan and the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union. I would also like to thank Carolyn Smith of the United Workers Union; Josh Dekuyer of the Rail, Tram and Bus Union; and Clement Chan, who was until recently at the United Professional Firefighters Union of WA, for their support.</para>
<para>I also have a wonderful staff in Matt Kavanagh, Fran Hickling and Jasmine West. I would like to thank them for their help and, in particular, Matt for his good humour and tireless efforts since I have been selected. I also thank Lawrence and Helen for their counsel.</para>
<para>I have been galactically fortunate in the people that I have gotten to know in my life: teachers, colleagues, teammates, comrades and, most importantly, my friends and family. That I stand in this place today is a result of their commitment, guidance and love. I feel a profound duty to make sure that that good fortune is paid forward. I will endeavour to fulfil that duty with dedication, optimism, energy and care.</para>
<para>As a senator, I serve the people of my state and the people of Australia. I will be a friend and advocate for those who are marginalised, for those who feel forgotten and for those who seek to realise the great egalitarian promise of our nation. I will strive to make sure that their voices are heard. Thank you.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>88</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024, Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>88</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7087" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Amendment (Safeguarding Australia's Military Secrets) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7121" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Defence Trade Controls Amendment Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>88</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, noting that we have a collective interest in getting this done rapidly, could I ask you to focus on this and provide an actual answer? When the definition of 'fundamental research' talks about 'restrictions on disclosure, however imposed', what do you mean by 'however imposed'? Does it mean by law, by regulation, by policy or by vibe? What does 'however imposed' mean?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is by a foreign government who notifies them upfront verbally or in writing</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is that solely by a foreign government?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Or a private company—I suppose we would say 'a foreign entity'.</para>
<para>Bills agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills reported without amendment; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>89</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bills be read a third time. A division is required; as it's after 6.30 pm, it will occur tomorrow.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>89</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7150" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>89</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak this evening on the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024. The coalition supports the passage of the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024. This bill seeks to amend the Autonomous Sanctions Act 2011 to confirm the validity of existing and future sanctions made under the Autonomous Sanctions Regulations 2011. More specifically, this bill confirms that individuals and entities can be validly sanctioned based on past conduct or status, regardless of the time which has occurred between conduct and application of the sanction, and clarifies that, in circumstances where it is not explicitly clear whether a minister considered their discretion to list or not list, the listing is nonetheless valid where the person or entity meets the criteria for imposing sanctions.</para>
<para>Australia's sanctions regime—for example, imposing travel bans or financial sanctions or freezing assets held in Australia—is a key tool for Australia to enforce the values that our nation seeks to uphold. As the former coalition government made clear when we introduced Magnitsky style sanctions in 2021, we use sanctions to deny to those who do the wrong thing the benefit of accessing our economy and the freedoms that our democracy allows.</para>
<para>As has been highlighted since the sanctions imposed on the hundreds of supporters of Russia's illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine in February 2022, some of those individuals sanctioned have deep pockets and the desire and the resources to seek to exploit any technical avenue to continue to be able to access their ill-gotten gains that may exist in Australia. Recent court cases have shown the lengths to which some of these individuals will go to undermine Australia's sanctions regime. While the Federal Court ruled in favour of the minister in these cases, at least one of these decisions is being appealed. So the action that the parliament is taking with this bill here today, an action which the coalition supports, is to reinforce this parliament's unambiguous view that Australia's sanctions regime is robust and that the decisions of all previous Australian government ministers to sanction an individual or entity were intentional and remain valid regardless of any attempt by others to seek to challenge them.</para>
<para>Australia has a strong history of promoting and protecting human rights globally, supporting the international rules based order and acting in the interests of international peace and security. Certainly in the coalition we are proud of our strong track record in this regard. Former coalition governments imposed sanctions on Mr Putin, Russian individuals and entities and supporters of the Russian regime. These included using sanctions in response to the downing of MH17 and the murder of 298 passengers and crew, including 28 who called Australia home, as well as Putin's role in Russia's annexation of Crimea. We also imposed over 800 sanctions on Russian interests and supporters, including in Belarus, within weeks of Russia's illegal and immoral invasion of the Ukraine in February 2022. In opposition, the coalition has continued to provide bipartisan support for the Albanese Labor government to increase support for Ukraine, including by imposing additional sanctions on Russian individuals, entities and supporters. In December 2021, under the coalition, Australia expanded its autonomous sanctions laws to enable the establishment of Magnitsky-style and other thematic sanctions. I know I speak on behalf of a number of my colleagues on this side of the chamber when I say that we are rightly proud of the work of the previous government in that regard.</para>
<para>While the coalition has welcomed the sanctions that the government has imposed on countries since coming to government in May 2022, in far too many cases Australia continues to lag behind our international partners and allies in using our sanctions regime to the greatest extent possible to hold to account those responsible for human rights abuses. This government has a penchant for being a follower and not a leader when it comes to imposing sanctions. Australia needs to act swiftly to send a clear and unequivocal message that the international community will not tolerate impunity for gross violations of human rights and the rule of law.</para>
<para>We welcome the latest announcement, on 24 February 2024, from the government imposing further targeted financial sanctions and travel bans on 55 persons and targeted financial sanctions on 37 entities, including sanctions targeting those involved in Russia's deportation of Ukrainian children from regions under temporary Russian control. However, sanctions targeting those involved in that same Russian deportation of Ukrainian children could have been done months ago. The reason we know this is that the European Union imposed similar sanctions in June 2023, the United Kingdom imposed similar sanctions in July 2023, the United States imposed similar sanctions in August 2023 and Canada imposed similar sanctions in September 2023. Yet it took Australia until 24 February this year to impose those sanctions.</para>
<para>Missing in that announcement of 24 February 2024 were sanctions imposed on those responsible for the death of Alexei Navalny, sanctions that the coalition called for on 21 February 2024. These sanctions came two days later, when the government announced targeted sanctions on seven prison individuals who were involved in this mistreatment and death in custody of Mr Navalny. Mr Navalny's death not only represents a profound loss for those who champion democracy and human rights around the world but also serves as a stark reminder of the criticality of taking all reasonable actions against the ongoing suppression of dissent and political opposition in Russia.</para>
<para>In December last year, the coalition called on the government to impose more targeted sanctions against high-ranking Hamas officials that would have a real impact in supporting Israel's campaign to disable Hamas and prevent it from committing such atrocities again. Almost a month later, on 23 January 2024, the government finally acted, announcing further counter-terrorism-financing sanctions on 12 persons and three entities linked to Hamas, Hezbollah and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. The coalition welcomed this, but I think it's important to look at the detail of what these sanctions were and when they were announced.</para>
<para>These sanctions were announced at the same time as the United States announced its fifth round of sanctions on Hamas since the 7 October terrorist attack. The latest US sanctions targeted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… networks of Hamas-affiliated financial exchanges in Gaza, their owners, and associates, and particularly financial facilitators that have played key roles in funds transfers including cryptocurrency transfers, from the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) in Gaza.</para></quote>
<para>However, none of the entities or the individuals sanctioned by the United States in their announcement of 22 January this year were included in the sanctions subsequently announced by this government. All 12 entities and three individuals that Australia sanctioned last month had been previously sanctioned by some of our allies. For example there's Mahmoud Khaled Zahhar, who they described as:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… a senior member and co-founder of Hamas who has worked closely with Specially Designated Global Terrorist (SDGT) and Hamas leader Ismail Haniyeh. Zahhar has spoken publicly on behalf of Hamas, including in formal interviews, to threaten violence against Jewish civilians and emphasize its commitment to the destruction of Israel.</para></quote>
<para>This individual was sanctioned by the United States on 14 November 2023 and by the United Kingdom on 13 December 2023. Another example is Ali Morshed Shirazi, an Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force official who trained and assisted the Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas and Hezbollah and was sanctioned by the US on 27 October 2023 and the United Kingdom on 13 December 2023.</para>
<para>Rather than playing catch-up when it comes to sanctioning individuals, Australia should be working in lockstep with our allies—particularly with our closest friend and ally, the United States, and the United Kingdom—to dismantle Hamas's financial infrastructure, including from external sources, and block new funding channels that they seek to use to finance their heinous acts.</para>
<para>While the coalition, as I say, has welcomed the limited sanctions the government has imposed on countries since May 2022, when they came to power, in far too many cases Australia continues to lag behind our international partners and allies in using our sanctions regime to hold to account those responsible for human rights abuses.</para>
<para>I think it's pertinent to remind the chamber this evening of some words said by our foreign minister, Senator Wong. Prior to the last election, in an address to the Australian Institute of International Affairs, Senator Wong called on the Morrison government to:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… consider targeted sanctions on foreign companies, officials and other entities known to be directly profiting from Uyghur forced labour and other human rights abuses.</para></quote>
<para>At the halfway mark of their first term, no such action has been taken by the Albanese government.</para>
<para>On the August anniversary of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights report into the forced detention and treatment of Uyghurs, Human Rights Watch Australia highlighted the action of the European Union, the United States, the United Kingdom and Canada in applying sanctions and said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian government should join other democracies in holding serious human rights abuses in China to account.</para></quote>
<para>By not doing this, what message is Australia sending? We can all draw conclusions about why Australia may not have acted, even though the coalition has offered bipartisan support for actions as a result of the United Nations High Commissioner's finding. By not acting, Australia weakens international efforts and the effectiveness of the efforts of others. As the Human Rights First coalition put it in their global review of Magnitsky at five years:</para>
<quote><para class="block">As powerful as it can be for one jurisdiction to impose Magnitsky sanctions against a human rights abuser or corrupt actor, the impact and legitimacy of those sanctions are multiplied as more jurisdictions join together to sanction the same persons.</para></quote>
<para>In conclusion, as I said at the outset, the coalition do support this bill we are debating this evening, and we want to see its timely passage through the Senate. We reiterate our offer of bipartisan support for this government to impose targeted sanctions in line with those of our allies, whether that is in response to Russian abuses, to human rights abuses in Xinjiang or to numerous other instances of human rights violations.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Autonomous sanctions are a critical tool in Australia's contribution to international justice. They have been used to hold foreign governments and actors to account and as an expression of Australia's condemnation. It is truly vitally important that the ability of Australia to sanction individuals and groups that commit grievous harms is upheld and protected from undue interference. The Australian Greens support the intent of the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024, which seeks to close loopholes. This will go some way to ensuring Australia's ability to continue to use sanctions effectively and often. The bill as drafted, however, does not go far enough in ensuring they are in fact used responsibly and transparently.</para>
<para>The Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights in its second report of this year raised concerns about the compatibility of this bill with human rights. Among concerns raised was the extent to which ministerial discretion could be used in the application of sanctions and the limited safeguards and opportunities for review. The recommendation of the committee was to implement a number of amendments to the autonomous sanctions framework. These recommendations included the incorporation of a review—indeed, multiple review points—into the process, regular reporting to Parliament in relation to the application of autonomous sanctions and widening consultation when considering applications of sanctions themselves. Many of these recommendations, first made by the committee in 2016, have not been implemented. There have been too many examples of successive governments failing to provide transparency to this parliament and to the Australian people. There must be avenues for holding the government accountable for both sanctions they choose to apply and the ones that they decide not to apply.</para>
<para>As such, on behalf of the Greens, I intend to move amendments to this legislation. Our community deserves to know when the government chooses not to put sanctions in place. A contemporary example would be that the community deserves to have an explanation as to why the calls of the Australian Palestinian community have not been actioned by the government, why the government have failed to place sanctions upon Israeli settlers in the occupied West Bank, as the United States has done. One of our Greens amendments would require the foreign minister to explain why the government is unwilling to sanction these illegal settlers.</para>
<para>The decision to place sanctions can hold great importance to diaspora communities here in Australia and indeed across the world. The impact of the placement of sanctions must be understood by the government as part of and, indeed, before making their decision. As such, an additional amendment will be offered by the Greens, which I will move, which would require the government to set up avenues of community consultation when seeking to apply sanctions. This would ensure that there is an opportunity for the community to make their concerns and requests known and, importantly, for the government to be held to account by the community if they refuse to act. This bill as it is currently written is not even achieving the bare minimum of what is needed to improve our sanctions legislation, and the Greens strongly support going further in strengthening sanctions controls.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens support the intent of the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024. As my colleague Senator Steele-John has just said, this bill is designed to close loopholes, so we are in support of the bill. But as Senator Steele-John also said, there are deficiencies in this bill. There are things that this bill could do which we think are critical.</para>
<para>I was really proud to have worked with the former coalition government in 2021 on the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment (Magnitsky-style and Other Thematic Sanctions) Act 2021 which set up our autonomous sanctions framework and gave the government power to impose autonomous sanctions to address particular issues. While our autonomous sanctions framework wasn't explicitly called a Magnitsky bill, it essentially enacted the Magnitsky framework and bought Australia into line with countries like the United States, the United Kingdom, Canada and others who have created legislative frameworks to impose targeted sanctions against human rights abusers.</para>
<para>Since that legislation was put into place, it has been encouraging to see the government use these Magnitsky-style sanctions on entities responsible for human rights abuses in Iran and Russia. But it has been disappointing to see the government fail to use our sanctions framework to the extent that it could be used, because it is a very powerful tool. Some of the committee recommendations that were made when we first set up this framework were that there needs to be more transparency and more independence. In particular, we wanted to see a framework that allowed for a more independent process to determine who should be sanctioned so it wouldn't just be the black box of the foreign minister getting to decide with no transparency at all and no accountability when choosing whose human rights were going to be protected. If there's one thing that we know, it's that we cannot afford to pick and choose whose human rights we protect. People's human rights everywhere across the world should be protected, and we should be standing up in this place advocating for human rights. Where those human rights are being abused, without fear or favour, we should be able to have a process that says, 'Here are serious human rights abuses going on, and there is a very strong case to apply sanctions to discourage those human rights abuses.' The amendments that Senator Steele-John is going to move on behalf of the Greens go somewhere towards supporting the integrity of this bill, and I urge everyone to support them.</para>
<para>One country we have not moved on applying sanctions, as Senator Chandler has spoken about, is China, but the other one in particular, given the genocide that is currently going on in Gaza, is Israel. We need to have a process so that these appalling human rights abuses can be independently assessed with the recommendations to go to the minister to have the evidence compiled and be made public as to why particular people should be sanctioned. In the case of China, we know of the oppression and persecution of people in Tibet and in East Turkestan. We know that the Chinese government is absolutely putting democracy defenders in Hong Kong under serious threat at the moment. There is such a case for Chinese officials who are responsible for these attacks on people to be sanctioned. We run the risk that, if we don't sanction them and the other countries that have Magnitsky-style sanctions do, we become the place of last resort where, if these officials can't get a visa to visit other Western countries or can't invest their money where they want to or can't send their children off to school or university in those countries, they end up in Australia. So we need to look very clearly and carefully at the other people who have been sanctioned by our allies and by the other countries that have got Magnitsky sanctions and consider very seriously if we want to sanction those people too.</para>
<para>In the case of Israel, the US has sanctioned illegal settlers in the West Bank. The Greens' position is that the entire Israel war cabinet should be sanctioned because of the genocide that is going on in Gaza.</para>
<para>Clearly, there needs to be a process to determine whether these sanctions are appropriate. We absolutely believe they are. The evidence is there in front of our eyes, and the International Court of Justice is saying that there is a genocide going on. But there needs to be a process and, at the moment, we do not have that process. All we have is a black box. All we have is a framework where the minister somehow decides who is going to be sanctioned. It's not good enough. We have to apply this framework and our concern about human rights without fear or favour for all people across the world.</para>
<para>In conclusion, this bill is a good start. It's good to make sure that the autonomous sanctions regime actually can work in the way it's been envisaged. But we need to be doing a lot more. So, while commending this bill, I urge all parties to support the amendments that the Greens have put up and I urge us to go further in order to protect human rights across the world and expanding who we apply sanctions on to make sure that our voice in support of human rights is heard in all situations, not just where it is politically expedient to do so.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We are facing an increasing number of situations of international concern and heightened instability in the world. Given the importance of sanctions as a critical foreign policy tool, it is necessary to ensure that Australia's sanctions framework remains robust. Since being elected in May 2022, as of March 2024, this government has imposed over 500 sanctions in response to situations of international concern, including Russia's invasion of Ukraine and human rights violations in Iran.</para>
<para>The Autonomous Sanctions Amendment Bill 2024 clarifies the operation of the Autonomous Sanctions Act to ensure that decisions made under the autonomous sanctions framework are robust. The bill also provides certainty and transparency to individuals and businesses so that they can effectively comply with sanctions laws. The bill amends the Autonomous Sanctions Act to confirm that sanctions based on past conduct or past status are valid. The bill also clarifies that, in circumstances where there is any perceived ambiguity in the operation of the act and the exercise of the minister's discretionary power, sanctions are valid. For the avoidance of doubt, the bill will confirm that the act and the sanctions framework operate as intended.</para>
<para>This bill will ensure that sanctions remain an effective foreign policy tool to demonstrate that Australia will not tolerate egregious behaviour and is willing to impose consequences in response. On that basis, I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>93</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 2443:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Page 7 (after line 32), at the end of the Bill, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 — Thematic sanctions and other measures</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Autonomous Sanctions Act 2011</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 Section 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">civil society organisation</inline> does not include the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a foreign government entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a body that is carried on for the purposes of profit or gain to its individual members;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 At the end of subsection 10(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (e) if the proposed proscription addresses a matter mentioned in paragraph 3(3)(d) or (f)—the Minister must consider any credible information provided by a civil society organisation that monitors violations or abuses of human rights or has expertise in international humanitarian law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 At the end of subsection 10(5)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (e) if the proscription addresses a matter mentioned in paragraph 3(3)(d) or (f)—the Minister must consider any credible information provided by a civil society organisation that monitors violations or abuses of human rights or has expertise in international humanitarian law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 At the end of section 10</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) The regulations must prescribe one or more processes under which a civil society organisation may provide information to the Minister as mentioned in paragraphs (4)(e) and (5)(e).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Without limiting subsection (7), the regulations may provide for any of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Minister to convene regular meetings with civil society organisations;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Minister to convene such other meetings with civil society organisations as are necessary to respond to an international crisis;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) opportunities for civil society organisations to provide information in confidence to the Minister;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the development of strategies and guidelines for ministerial and departmental engagement with civil society organisations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 Before section 28</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27A Annual report on sanctions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Minister must prepare a report on the autonomous sanctions applied under this Act during each calendar year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Minister must table a copy of the report in each House of the Parliament within 15 sitting days of that House after the end of the calendar year to which the report relates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6 Application of amendment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Section 27A of the <inline font-style="italic">Autonomous Sanctions Act 2011</inline>, as inserted by this Schedule, applies in relation to calendar years beginning on or after the commencement of this item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Page 7 (after line 32), at the end of the Bill, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 — Amendments relating to targeted sanctions for human rights violations</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Autonomous Sanctions Act 2011</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 After paragraph 3(1)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ba) require the Minister to inform the Parliament about the application of autonomous sanctions for serious violations or serious abuses of human rights; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 Section 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">associated entity</inline>: an entity is an <inline font-style="italic">associated entity</inline> in relation to a person if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person controls, whether alone or jointly with another person and whether directly or indirectly:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at least 50% of the total value of the issued share capital of the entity; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) at least 50% of the rights to distributions of capital or profits of the entity; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the right to cast at least 50% of the maximum number of votes that might be cast at a general meeting (however described) of the entity; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) the right to appoint or remove a majority of the members of the board or other group of persons responsible for the administration or management of the affairs of the entity; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person has authority or responsibility for, or significant influence over, planning, directing or controlling the activities of the entity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, an entity is not an <inline font-style="italic">associated entity</inline> in relation to a person if the person is an external administrator (within the meaning of Schedule 2 to the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Act 2001</inline>) of the entity, or holds a similar position under a law of a foreign country.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">human rights</inline> has the same meaning as in the <inline font-style="italic">Human Rights (Parliamentary Scrutiny) Act 2011</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 After Part 2</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 2A — Ministerial statements on sanctions relating to human rights</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15A Minister must give statement on request by Parliament</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) This section applies if a resolution is passed by:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) either House of the Parliament; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the Human Rights Sub-Committee of the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the Senate Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) any other committee established, on or after the commencement of this section, under a resolution of one or both Houses of the Parliament to inquire into and report on matters relating to foreign affairs;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">requiring the Minister to prepare a statement in accordance with subsection (2) in relation to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) a person; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) a person and any associated entity of the person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Minister must prepare a statement setting out:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) whether, in the Minister's opinion, the person is responsible for serious violations or serious abuses of human rights; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) whether autonomous sanctions will be applied to the person or associated entity; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) if autonomous sanctions will be applied—a description of those autonomous sanctions; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) if autonomous sanctions will not be applied—the reasons why autonomous sanctions will not be applied; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) details of any consultations undertaken by the Minister in preparing the statement, including any consultations with civil society organisations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The Minister must table the statement in both Houses of the Parliament within 120 days after the day the resolution is passed.</para></quote>
<para>In speaking to these amendments, I want to make it clear that the intent of these amendments is to bring greater transparency, accountability and community consultation on the matter of the application of autonomous sanctions. For too long, it has not been a requirement for the government to listen to the requests of the community, particularly diaspora community groups, when deciding whether or not sanctions should be placed on an individual or group. These amendments will make it a necessary step in the process to involve people affected by the issue, because, when you do that, you get a better outcome. These amendments would also allow the parliament to request an explanation as to why an individual or group has or has not been sanctioned, including how the decision was made and who was consulted. This would greatly improve transparency and prevent the government from continuing to make decisions in relation to sanctions behind closed doors with minimal accountability to our Australian community.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to put the opposition's position on the Greens amendment on the record, I know that these amendments largely replicate the amendments that were moved by Greens senators during the debate on the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment (Magnitsky-style and Other Thematic Sanctions) Bill 2021, and, as was the case then, the coalition will be opposing these amendments here this evening.</para>
<para>The amendments that have been moved by Senator Steele-John create a requirement for the minister to consider any credible information provided by a civil society organisation that monitors violations or abuses of human rights or has expertise in humanitarian law. This requirement will apply only when a proposed sanction addresses serious violations or serious abuses of human rights or serious violations of international humanitarian law. As I said at the outset, these amendments are nearly identical to those moved by Greens senators in 2021, and, while they don't create further consultation requirements, they do create an obligation on the minister to consider credible information provided by civil society groups. In considering these amendments here in Committee of the Whole this evening, I think it is relevant to reflect on the words of former foreign affairs minister Marise Payne, who said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We have always considered credible information that is provided to us by civil society and we will continue to do that, including conducting regular consultation. We receive suggestions for sanctions listing from a range of sources. It's absolutely the expectation that that would continue, and I know what a constructive role that non-government organisations have played in the development of this legislation—</para></quote>
<para>relevant to the Magnitsky sanctions debate—</para>
<quote><para class="block">and in these discussions today. Any individual or organisation can make representations to government regarding the potential sanctions targets.</para></quote>
<para>Those were words that were said by former senator Payne in this place in the debate on the Autonomous Sanctions Amendment (Magnitsky-style and Other Thematic Sanctions) Bill back in December 2021.</para>
<para>As I said, the opposition's view on this issue has not changed. We certainly have some sympathy with the intent behind these amendments, but our priority here this evening is ensuring that this bill is passed as expeditiously as possible. So we will be opposing those amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would also like to put the government's position on the record in relation to this amendment. The government does not accept the proposed amendments, which go beyond the scope of the bill. The bill amends the Autonomous Sanctions Act to remove any possibility of doubt that individuals or entities can be validly sanctioned based on their past conduct or status. It also clarifies the validity of sanctions listings that rely on the minister's discretion to impose sanctions. In doing so, the bill provides certainty and transparency to the Australian community so that they can effectively comply with sanctions laws.</para>
<para>The government welcomes engagement with civil society organisations on human rights sanctions. The Department of Foreign Affairs receives and considers submissions on potential sanctions targets from a range of human rights organisations, and it is an expectation that this will continue. But, ultimately, decisions to impose sanctions are matters which should be made by whoever is responsible—executive government—at the time they're being made. They are imposed judiciously and where it is in our national interest to do so. The government is committed to maintaining the transparency of the sanctions listing process, including through existing parliamentary scrutiny such as the Scrutiny of Bills Committee, the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights and, of course, Senate estimates. We continue to keep the sanctions framework under continuous review to ensure that it remains robust and fit for purpose.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to briefly support Senator Steele-John's amendments and commend them. My office regularly has communications with the Iranian community, the Palestinian community, the Bangladeshi diaspora, the Pakistani diaspora and members of the Rohingya community, who have all at different times pressed this government and the previous government for sanctions against leadership in their home countries, which have been making decisions that abuse human rights, that imprison and torture their political leaders and that clearly would fall within the regime of the Magnitsky legislation. Yet it's a complete black box from the government. They make a submission, they send a letter and they get nothing from the government.</para>
<para>The US—you would think we could at least meet their standards for human rights legislation—has a procedure very similar to what Senator Steele-John is seeking to put forward, which has public consultation and a role not just for the executive but also for the congress to take a stance on their Magnitsky legislation. In many ways what Senator Steele-John is seeking to do here is to meet the minimum standards met by the US. That might give, for example, the Bangladeshi community an answer as to why, more than two years after the United States imposed sanctions on the leadership of the Rapid Action Battalion in Bangladesh, which has seen the disappearance of hundreds and hundreds of its political opponents, this government has refused to act. I could run that list down—the Palestinian community asking for sanctions, the Iranian community asking for sanctions. There needs to be a process and transparency, not black boxing the executive.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 2443 be agreed to. A division is required. There are no divisions now, so we'll defer it to tomorrow. As the bill cannot proceed until votes can be taken, I shall now report to the Senate.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
<para>Ordered that the committee have leave to sit again on the next day of sitting.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Broadcasting Services Amendment (Community Television) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>96</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7148" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Broadcasting Services Amendment (Community Television) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>96</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Broadcasting Services Amendment (Community Television) Bill 2024, a bill which underlines the significant role that community television plays in our communities, particularly in Melbourne, Geelong and Adelaide, where Channels 31 and 44 provide very valuable local coverage of local issues and events and, of course, give very important opportunities for emerging industry professionals. As a Geelong based Liberal senator I hold this issue very close to my heart. When I worked for National Indigenous Television, I worked very closely with Channel 31 in Melbourne, and, in fact, we contracted the highly regarded <inline font-style="italic">Marngrook Footy Show</inline>, which was compulsory viewing for anyone who had any interest at all in AFL footy. So I've seen on the ground, from the grass roots of community television, what a very significant role channels like Channel 31 play.</para>
<para>Community TV has for decades been integral to our media landscape, not just because it offers a genuine platform for community engagement on issues which matter, particularly at a local level, but also because it offers aspiring industry professionals a very important foot in the door. For example, on the <inline font-style="italic">Marngrook Footy Show</inline>, there was everyone from hosts to cameramen, producers, scriptwriters and sound recordists. That was a program, which, just on its own, engaged so many people right across the television sector. There are so many programs on community television doing just that. The transition of these channels onto digital platforms has long been a topic of discussion. In 2014, the coalition government announced plans to move these stations online, citing the need to utilise broadcast spectrum for wider public benefit. Spectrum refers to the use of the airwaves, be it for television or indeed for mobile services, so this amendment goes very much to the heart of how the government manages that spectrum.</para>
<para>To be frank, this government's record is not a good one. We have previously seen the Minister for Communications mismanage spectrum very badly in relation to round 6 of the Mobile Black Spot Program. This is the notorious funding round where the minister personally provided direction as to which project should get funding. In Victoria and New South Wales, 100 per cent of these black spot locations were in Labor electorates. It was a shocking misuse of taxpayer funding and a real betrayal of so many communities which did not get a look-in when they raised deep concerns about black spots in their area. We certainly look forward to the results of the investigation by the Auditor-General in relation to round 6 of the mobile black spots fund over the next couple of months. We also await the outcome of an investigation by the Information Commissioner into the minister's refusal to provide key documents on this very grubby affair under an FOI application.</para>
<para>More broadly, this government has a deeply questionable record when it comes to the Communications portfolio. Labor's ill-considered misinformation bill has been widely criticised by everyone from lawyers all across this country to human rights and civil liberties groups. The communications minister has claimed that the government wants to be very open and transparent about the misinformation bill. This, however, is gross hypocrisy from a minister who failed to reveal she planned to give herself the power to direct her own misinformation investigations.</para>
<para>The Albanese government should also be condemned for failing to support the recommendation of the eSafety Commissioner for a trial of age-assurance technology aimed at protecting children online from harmful content. Now we're hearing the eSafety Commissioner say that there are in fact a range of technologies being used for age verification for gambling and alcohol. It is time for the minister to admit that she got it wrong. It is time for the minister to protect children from dangerous content online. And it is time for the minister and the Albanese Labor government to support the coalition's policy to implement the eSafety Commissioner's recommendation.</para>
<para>It's no wonder that this government has failed to deliver the answers that community broadcasters are crying out for. It has been completely preoccupied by so many other matters—all the wrong priorities—including the Voice referendum. The neglect of the support of community television can be added to a number of issues for which this government has failed to deliver answers.</para>
<para>The future of community stations hinges on proper consultation and negotiation, yet the government's lack of engagement with stakeholders is very disappointing. Why hasn't there been meaningful collaboration with community television stations and the telecommunications industry? Why do community TV stations continue to operate in a state of uncertainty? The Broadcasting Services Amendment (Community Television) Bill 2024, while aiming to extend the deadline for community television stations, ultimately fails to provide the certainty these stations need. The can is kicked down the road, in other words.</para>
<para>So now the decision in relation to the future for community television is postponed until after the next election, further prolonging the uncertainty for this very important sector of our media landscape. The government's inaction on this is unacceptable. Community television stations deserve clarity and support, not postponements and indecision. I put to this chamber: it's time for the government to prioritise the future of community television and engage in meaningful dialogue with stakeholders to chart a clear path forward. I urge those on the other side of the chamber to consider the ramifications of this bill very carefully. We cannot afford to let indecision and inaction dictate the fate of community television in Australia. It must continue to thrive and serve as a vital platform for local voices.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can barely believe my ears. They must deceive me! For years and years, the Liberal and National parties were trying to kick community television off air. When in opposition, I sat in estimates after estimates and put questions to the then minister, questions to the department, where I was told, over and over again, there was no cost in keeping them on air and no alternative use for the spectrum, yet they wanted them gone. They were trying to boot them off air. That is the truth of what has happened over the past few years in community television broadcasting. That is the truth. It cost you nothing to keep community television. You had no other plan for them. You just wanted them gone. It was an ideological attack by the Liberal and National parties against community television. It was absurd on any level you can think or measure, and those estimates hearings were absurd. Absolutely absurd.</para>
<para>The good people who work in community television, the many volunteers in community television, the members of my community who rely on community television to tell their stories, they know the truth. They know the truth, that you were coming after community television. You tried and you tried and you tried, and we stopped you. We stood shoulder to shoulder with community television in this country, in Adelaide and in Melbourne. We stood shoulder to shoulder with them against these attacks because we knew their value, we know their value.</para>
<para>In my community, during the pandemic it was community television which broadcast religious services of many different faiths. It provided that hugely important connection for people in my community to their faith at a time when they couldn't go to church, they couldn't go to temple, they couldn't go to those religious services. That was hugely important, as was the critical information in a range of languages which matter deeply to my community.</para>
<para>In South Australia, community television is there. It shows up when we're sad, when we're celebrating, when we have those key and critical events across our state like the Fringe. Community television is there because it is a part of us; it is a part of the fabric of our community. And I have sat with members of our station, year after year, as they have grappled with an inability to get the fundraising dollars they need, the advertising revenue they need to provide security to their employees, who are passionate about the work they do, and security to their volunteers.</para>
<para>You could barely find a famous comedian, actor or presenter in Australia who didn't get their start in some way on community television or community radio. My community loves community television. They get it, and they don't believe the nonsense I've just heard tonight. They know the Liberal and National parties wanted them gone for no reason. Do you know what? All community television have been asking for is transparency in their future, and some kind of reasonable, logical, rational pathway. They are making great strides in their work to get online. They have launched an online platform. It is an amazing thing. But the absurdity was during the pandemic, during these years, when they did not have that certainty. In fact, they were being threatened with being kicked off every few months. 'Indecision' is the wrong word. The Liberals and Nationals wanted them gone. This bill is not about getting rid of community television; this bill is about giving transparency and security in the future of community television.</para>
<para>On this side, we get the value of community television. We stood up to the Liberal and National parties in the face of the absurdity of their conviction against community television. There is so much to value in this bill. I know it means a hell of a lot to the people who work in community television, to the volunteers in community television, to the people in Adelaide and Melbourne who watch community television and who love community television. It is a good bill, it does a good thing and it reverses the stupidity and callousness of the decisions the Liberal and National parties took—year after year after year, estimates after estimates after estimates—when they said, 'It costs nothing to keep them there. We have no plans for the spectrum. We just want them gone.' That is what they did. This bill is taking a very different path. I am proud of it. Let's have some truth in the debate. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>98</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As no amendments to the bill have been circulated, I shall call the minister to move the third reading unless any senator requires that the bill be considered in Committee of the Whole.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>98</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7151" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>98</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The coalition will be supporting the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024. This bill is a one-schedule amendment to the Australian Consumer Law. It establishes a new designated complaints function by empowering the relevant minister to appoint entities as designated complainants, granting them the power to progress complaints directly to the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and receive a response within 90 days. When deciding whether to approve an applicant as a designated complainant, the minister must consider a number of things: firstly, their experience and ability in representing the interests of consumers and small businesses or both in Australia in relation to a range of market issues affecting them; and secondly, the extent to which the applicant will act with integrity as a complainant. I note that the coalition will be watching very closely who the minister approves in these situations. This provision must not be used as an opportunity to reward Labor Party friends or the Albanese government's union paymasters.</para>
<para>If the ACCC is satisfied that a designated complainant relates to a significant or systemic market issue that affects consumers or small businesses in Australia or both and relates either to a potential breach of the act or to one or more of the ACCC's functions or powers, the ACCC may notify a designated complaint that they will act by issuing a 'further action' notice. If the ACCC is not satisfied, it must issue a 'no further action' notice. The ACCC may also issue a 'no further action' notice in other specific circumstances. Where the ACCC decides to act on a designated complainant, it must use best endeavours to commence that action as soon as practicable and within a maximum time frame of six months. Any response delivered by the ACCC must be based on the existing powers of the ACCC and functions under the act, including education, research and compliance and enforcement functions.</para>
<para>I now turn to what this bill does not do. This bill does not reverse the damage the Albanese government has done through its poor economic decisions since it was elected in May 2022. This bill does not promote a back-to-basics economic agenda, which would be the best way to give consumers and small businesses the best and fairest opportunities. A back-to-basics approach means knowing where government has a role to play and where it doesn't; making sure that your competition policy is right, instead of prioritising crony capitalism, as Labor has done; ending waste, rather than spending $40 million worth of taxpayer dollars on a spin unit to sell a broken promise; and sensible and flexible industrial relations laws that support hardworking Australians, not putting union officials back in charge.</para>
<para>The coalition believes that giving people opportunities to get ahead and realise their aspirations will in turn create opportunities for others, including jobs and investment across the Australian economy. Those opposite will want to continue to divide along class lines, fuelling the politics of envy. Instead, the coalition will continue to support aspiration, opportunity and prosperity for all Australians. We have a proven record of driving strong competition policy and supporting small businesses. The former coalition government delivered competition reforms, including the default market offer, establishing the food and grocery code of conduct, legislating to address energy market misconduct and establishing the payment times reporting framework. We also delivered significant backing for Australia's 3.7 million small and medium businesses. This included reducing the small business company tax rate, extending the instant asset write-off and establishing the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman. As the next election approaches, the coalition will go to the polls with more strong and effective competition policy aimed at delivering better consumer outcomes and boosting productivity in our economy, because the coalition believes that competition policy in this country should support small business owners and empower consumers, not empower lobbyists and big corporations.</para>
<para>The coalition has circulated an amendment standing in my name, to be deliberated on in the committee stage of this bill, which seeks to require an independent review to be conducted after the passage of this bill and after a two-year operation of the actual scheme. That suggestion is to be found in the submissions and contributions of the many stakeholders that made a contribution to the committee inquiry on this bill. We trust that it is uncontentious and will enjoy the support of the government and other crossbench senators when we get to it tomorrow afternoon.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024. Look around us: Australia is in a cost-of-living crisis. We heard last week that affordable housing is beyond the reach of people in all of our capital cities. We've heard in the supermarket prices inquiry that 88 per cent of people in Australia are worried about the cost of food and groceries. Food and housing are essential goods. We cannot live without them. The cost-of-living crisis is pushing millions of people into poverty. It's causing untold harm and suffering in our society. It's making people homeless and causing people to be trapped in debt. Big corporations are fuelling the cost-of-living crisis. Coles and Woolies are driving up the cost of food, and banks are reaping massive profits through making people pay more and more on their home loans. Energy companies are making huge profits on higher and higher energy bills, and in this context Australians would expect their government to be actively working towards relieving pressure and directly bringing the cost of living down. Instead we get this bill that just tinkers around the edges.</para>
<para>Labor's plan to tackle the cost-of-living crisis is just not up to the task. What the government could be doing right now to help Australians with the cost of living is supporting the Greens' Competition and Consumer Amendment (Divestiture Powers) Bill 2024. This bill would give the ACCC powers to break up big companies like Coles and Woolworths if they're found to have misused their market power. The Greens will always back people over corporations. We need to give our courts and competition regulators the power to smash the supermarket duopoly and other price-gouging corporations across the economy.</para>
<para>The Australian economy lacks competition, and the problem is getting worse. Nowhere is the issue of lack of competition more stark than in the supermarket sector, with Coles and Woolworths engaged in a duopoly that holds a massive 65 per cent of the market share. According to former ACCC chair Professor Allan Fels, Australia's grocery sector is amongst the most concentrated in the world. It's more concentrated than in comparable countries, including the UK, Germany and the US. It's clear that greater competition reduces supermarket profits. At its most recent full-year results, Coles posted $1.1 billion as its full-year profit, while Woolworths lifted its annual profit to $1.6 billion. Professor Fels has found that high market concentration has resulted in supermarket profits that are higher than they would be in a competitive market.</para>
<para>Market concentration impedes competition and is a massive drain on the economy as a whole. It reduces productivity growth, it slows innovation, it impacts on the quality of products available and it leads to higher inflation through excessive prices. Monopolies and oligopolies are bad for consumers, they're bad for workers, they're bad for suppliers and they're bad for the economy more broadly.</para>
<para>When a corporation has an excessive share of the market, they can abuse their power in four different ways. Firstly, they can hike prices for consumers well above what they need to cover costs. Secondly, they can force suppliers to reduce their prices but pocket the difference instead of passing it on to consumers. Thirdly, they can squeeze shop floor workers with increasingly poor wages and conditions while executives and major shareholders line their pockets with excessive profits. Fourthly, they can stifle innovation through their ability to acquire emerging startups or competitors or by blocking or frustrating their entry into a market.</para>
<para>Increased mark-ups and price gouging represent billions more profits in the hands of massive corporations while everyday people increasingly struggle to afford to pay for essential products and services like food, rent and health care. Every day this parliament refuses to act to rein in the power of big corporations with too much market power, more and more people skip meals, fall behind in their rent and mortgage payments and delay vital medical appointments. The Greens are listening to Australian consumers. We listened to them last weekend in the seat of Dunstan.</para>
<para>Consumers are reducing the amount of groceries they are buying. They are buying less fruit and vegetables, and some are going without essentials and skipping meals. In my home state of South Australia, the situation is dire. Adelaide has recorded the nation's biggest jump in food prices, with prices increasing by 16.4 per cent between 2021 and 2023. This is higher than in any other Australian capital city. In South Australia Foodbank has recorded a 57 per cent increase in families visiting their food hubs. Over half the people who visit Foodbank are people in paid employment—what we call the working poor: people who are working every day but simply cannot afford to pay the steep price of groceries. These issues underline the Select Committee on Grocery Pricing in South Australia, a committee chaired by my South Australian Greens colleague the Hon. Rob Simms. The Greens know that these big supermarket corporations are ripping off consumers, and we are holding them to account.</para>
<para>The system is broken for workers too. Take Coles, for example. While the Coles CEO rakes in millions each year, Coles workers can't even afford to shop at their own workplace, with staff skipping meals and shopping elsewhere. Without meaningful pay rises, workers are living in a situation described as close to modern poverty. Frontline supermarket workers are increasingly subject to abuse and to poor wages and working conditions, while the executives and major shareholders line their pockets with millions in excess profit.</para>
<para>The Senate Select Committee on Supermarket Prices, chaired by my colleague Senator McKim, has heard devastating evidence about the effects of the supermarket duopoly and their pricing and market power and the impacts on our farmers. One fruitgrower told the committee that family farms will be gone in 10 years because of supermarket practices. Several industry veterans have bravely stepped forward to voice their concerns. Xavier Martin, the President of the NSW Farmers Association, has rightly said that the food retailing market is not functioning properly and that we need to break up Coles and Woolies if they won't behave. There is a widening gap between wholesale and shelf prices, with consumers paying more at the checkout, and none of it flowing onto our farmers. Farmers are paid too little and shoppers are charged too much. Consumers, farmers and workers are at breaking point, and the government needs to take urgent action. It's clear that greater competition reduces supermarket profits and brings down prices for consumers.</para>
<para>The Australian Greens have introduced a bill in the Senate to give the ACCC the power to break up supermarkets. The giant supermarket corporations have had it their way for too long, and it's time that the interests of people took precedence over the profits of corporations. We need to stop supermarket corporations ruthlessly using their market power to gouge prices while raking in billions of dollars in profit. Giving our courts and competition regulators the power to affect the supermarket duopoly will help reign them in. It will have a powerful effect on the way they operate. The proposed powers in our bill could be used to require the sale of specific Coles or Woolworths owned supermarkets or liquor outlets or their supermarket home product lines to a local or international competitor.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister has dismissed divestiture powers as a Soviet Union policy, but this is not a controversial or a radical idea. The US has had divestiture powers for over 130 years since 1890, which have been used effectively to reduce the market power of companies in a range of industries, including the breakup of the AT&T Telephone monopoly in the 1980s. Former ACCC Chair Allan Fels says a divestiture power should be part of the toolkit for all competition laws everywhere in the world. Low-income households in particular are being harmed by this lack of competition and resulting higher food prices. Cost of living is one of the largest issues we know facing Australians right now. It was a top issue in the election in South Australia in the seat of Dunstan last Saturday.</para>
<para>Giant supermarket corporations have had their way for far too long, and Australians know that this must change. This is clear from the sheer number of inquiries and reviews into the supermarket sector at both the state and federal level. This Labor government needs to be more ambitious and willing to tackle the problem head on, but this bill we're considering tonight does not do that. The Greens do support this bill's creation of a new designated complaints function for consumer and small business groups to raise complaints with the ACCC relating to systemic market issues. However, it's just another example of the Labor government tinkering around the edges instead of taking the real, significant, meaningful action we need to address this problem. We call on the Labor government to take the side of the Australian people and join with the Australian Greens to support the creation of divestiture powers to break up the supermarket duopoly.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024. The bill improves competition in the economy and supports consumers and small businesses. It leverages the success and powers of the ACCC, our world-leading regulator. This bill will establish a designated complaints mechanism for consumer groups and small-business advocates that are designated by the minister. It allows those groups—groups that see firsthand the significant and systemic market issues that consumers and small businesses face—to raise those issues faster and with priority to the ACCC. Importantly, the bill sets out that the ACCC must respond to complaints within 90 days. This is a fantastic change. It will result in better outcomes for consumers and small businesses. It will mean that the ACCC can be aware of issues and take action sooner, when action is required, so it is a very welcome change.</para>
<para>The Senate Economics Legislation Committee conducted an inquiry into the bill, and the support for this bill was overwhelming. Consumer groups overwhelmingly supported the bill, including the Australian Communications Consumer Action Network, Choice, the Consumer Action Law Centre, the Consumers Federation of Australia, the Consumer Policy Research Centre, the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, Super Consumers Australia and Energy Consumers Australia. They described it as a missing piece of the regulatory puzzle in addressing systemic and significant market issues. The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry supported the bill too. They described it as a much-needed mechanism, noting that there is no existing process for small businesses or consumers to lodge a complaint with the ACCC and have a response be required. The Australian Food and Grocery Council commented that the bill would be well received in the food, beverage and grocery manufacturing sector. Similarly, the Mortgage and Finance Association of Australia noted that this would provide an important channel for members and customers to bring attention to important issues that they face. The Western Australian Small Business Development Corporation said that this bill would empower small-business advocates to expedite assessments of issues and fast-track recommendations for action.</para>
<para>This is an important piece of the puzzle, as I said, but it is just one example of the fantastic work the government is doing to support consumers and address competition issues in our country. We've also increased penalties for corporations engaging in anticompetitive behaviour from $10 million to $50 million to deter unfair activity. We have strengthened protections against unfair contract terms to ensure that there's a level playing field for both small businesses and consumers. Dr Craig Emerson has been appointed to lead the review of the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct to ensure that the supermarket sector is working as it should. We have also established a competition taskforce within Treasury that is made up of competition experts to produce practical policies to boost competition and fuel wage growth in this country. This bill is just one piece of the puzzle in terms of improving competition and consumer protection settings in Australia and making sure that consumers and small businesses get a fair go.</para>
<para>In conclusion, it's great that the parliament will be supporting this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The intent of the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024 is to improve the ACCC complaints process. It is a one-schedule amendment to establish a new designated complaints function. That amendment gives the relevant minister the power to appoint entities as 'designated complainants' whose designated complaints must be assessed and responded to by the ACCC within 90 days. The ACCC may take further action in relation to a designated complaint if the complaint relates to significant or systemic market issues that affect consumers or small businesses. It's far from perfect. The coalition is supportive, though, of policy that can have a positive impact.</para>
<para>The bill has the potential to increase efficiency in the complaints process. Those of us who have actually run a business and had customers and clients know the value of certainty and a timely response. As businesses suffer during the Albanese government's management of the economy through a cost-of-living crisis, this is a necessary measure. When deciding if an applicant shall be regarded as a designated complainant, the minister must take into account two key considerations. The first is the applicant's experience and ability in representing the interests of consumers or small businesses or both in relation to a range of market issues that affect them. The second is the extent to which the applicant will act with integrity. That's a good thing. However, it is reliant on fair and reasonable use of ministerial power.</para>
<para>The opposition will not be providing the government with unfettered powers. The bill must not be used as a chance for the government to reward its union paymasters or its favourites. The critical unknown is who the Albanese government will appoint to these positions. It will demonstrate how much integrity this Labor government has in its election promise to protect and empower the interests of small business. Even the National Farmers' Federation, the peak national body representing farmers and more broadly agriculture across Australia, is calling for transparency on such appointments as well as greater public guidance. As much progress as this bill could potentially make, I'm doubtful the Albanese Labor government will be able to maximise and make the appropriate use of it. Like a painful repeat cycle, over promising and under delivering is the hallmark of this government.</para>
<para>This bill does not reverse the impact of this government's bad economic decisions nor does it claw back a solid, sensible economic agenda, and, as a consequence, Australians will continue to suffer. The best way to give a fair go to customers and small business is to reduce the costs of goods such as input costs, freight, importation costs and utilities. Since the Albanese government came into government with the help of the Australian Greens, the cost of mortgages has gone up. The cost of food has gone up by nine per cent, housing by 12 per cent, insurance by 22 per cent, and gas is also up by 27 per cent.</para>
<para>Electricity is one of the main increasing costs. I'm not sure what communities or people you talk to when you claim electricity prices are going down. In who's world is the price of electricity going down? Well, it's not in South Australia and it's not in households, it's not in the business community and it is not in industries. This government likes to speak volumes, but jetting into Darwin while avoiding the issues in Alice Springs indicates a characteristic of avoiding exposure to those who are likely to tell you what you do not want to hear.</para>
<para>So how can there be trust that Labor will progress the issues based on what is fair rather than what suits its agenda and that Labor will use that ministerial discretion to maximum effect without fear or favour? The backbone of our economy are the small and family businesses, which are undeniably in a worse position since the Albanese government came to power. Australian small businesses employ more than one million people and add $500 billion to the national GDP. Small and family businesses are employers of Australians. They are hurting right now and the people they employ are also hurting.</para>
<para>We know Australians are paying more tax than when Labor won the 2022 election. We know Australians have paid more for just about everything since then. Fast efficient progression of complaints, if done right, of course will have a beneficial impact. Lifeline told me just last week the number of calls to their crisis phone and text lines has gone up due to issues of family and domestic violence, substance misuse. Australians, more and more of them, as consumers and customers, are struggling with the cost of living and they are on the end of Lifeline's phone and text lines. Appointments for financial services are in extraordinary demand. People need complaints dealt with more efficiently because they are the beneficiaries when it is done right. Australians need competition policy responses that empower consumers, whether they are wholesale or retail consumers, wherever they connect in the supply chain. This government doesn't understand that, when it increases the cost of doing business, it is always going to hurt more and more people.</para>
<para>More government intervention is the hallmark of Labor governments. Rolling out more red tape is not economic good management; it just adds more cost to doing business and it is the consumer that pays. While Australians are counting their dollars and cents to make ends meet, my colleague Angus Taylor in the lower house has discovered the Albanese government has added $209 billion in spending since it came to power. That is more than $20,000 of extra spending for every single household. There has not been an increase in real wages. Australians know that. They know that because their dollar does not buy more; it buys less.</para>
<para>This Albanese government is proving what we were saying before they were elected with the support of the Australian Greens—that is, when Labor runs out of money, they come after yours. Labor tells you every single taxpayer is better off by $15 under its tax reform backflip, but bracket creep and cost of living means this simply isn't true. It's impossible to be true under Labor's economic mismanagement.</para>
<para>It was never going to be easy under Prime Minister Albanese, and here we are. Everything is harder, more uncertain and more expensive under this Albanese government. Australians know it is the coalition that is better at delivering good consumer outcomes, supporting strong competition policy, supporting small and family businesses and, in turn, encouraging hardworking, aspirational Australians. The coalition will always advocate for lower, simpler, fairer taxes and will always and unashamedly fight for hardworking Australians through fiscal policy that provides aspiration, opportunity and prosperity for all Australians.</para>
<para>In the federal seat of Boothby, in my home state of South Australia, just this month there was yet another story of pain from the people running businesses that put money into the pockets of Australians and into government coffers. Boothby businesses are desperate. An industrial workshop in Boothby shared that it is worried it can't survive with the increasing cost of doing business. The owner is exasperated. His dreams, hopes and aspirations are being killed by this Albanese government's handiwork, with no policy relief in sight.</para>
<para>While those opposite focused on their failed $400 million Voice referendum, made big announcements with delayed delivery and broke promise after promise, hardworking Australians, including nearly four million businesses and many millions of Australians who rely on small and family businesses for their jobs, saw and heard that the Labor Party was not focused on them. While they waited for you to turn your attention to them, their cost of living and of doing business went up and up and up.</para>
<para>In Boothby I'm talking about a business that survived Labor's 1990s so-called 'recession we had to have', a business that survived COVID shutdowns, a business that's been going since the 1960s, a business now unlikely to survive this Albanese government. In the business owner's own words: 'Everything is out of control. Everything costs more money. The rising cost of power is through the roof. I will have to close.' It is devastating to hear those words from somebody who built a business based on aspiration and expected a reward for hard work. It's not a business that can be dismissed as one with a bad business plan; this is a business that likely won't survive the Albanese government's bad economic plan.</para>
<para>Another Boothby example is a local food-processing company trying to look after its customers without passing on costs, but it's becoming increasingly difficult to do that. In another example, a homewares and fashion business owner is now working on the register at Brighton even when ill to ensure the doors stay open, but she told me that that's unsustainable. She should be working on the business, not in it, but, because of the Albanese government's economic plan, she can't. She told us that, where previously she spent thousands at wholesale markets, she now can't do that without cash flow, nor can she hold stock while her customers are mostly looking for sale items. That's the reality of running a business under this Labor government.</para>
<para>I know most of you on the other side of this chamber have a lifetime of working with unions, in parliament or both, but those of us who have established and run businesses know that businesses exist to make profit. There has to be reward for hard work and reward for responsibility; otherwise, why would you do it?</para>
<para>Increasing power bills are a frequent conversation in South Australia because in South Australia the average wholesale price in 2023 was amongst the highest in Australia. South Australians know it. Australians too know they are paying more for power. SA Power Networks, the single power distribution network for my entire home state, has seen a $696 cumulative increase in power bills under this government. That's a more than 33 per cent increase. For a Prime Minister that promised 97 times during the election campaign to cut every Australian's power bills by $275, there are many millions of Australians who didn't see that happen. Customer complaints have risen by 42 per cent over the same period, but you don't need a complaints mechanism to tell you something is very wrong. Just get on with fixing it.</para>
<para>Since the last election, power bills have risen by a cumulative $1,288 for small businesses. So what has the Albanese government done? The evidence is clear. It's not much, and it's certainly not fast enough. People are struggling now. Business is struggling now. Industry is struggling right now. Talk of hydrogen plants and more windfarms does nothing for the here and now. As I acknowledge this bill—it makes amendments to establish a new designated complaints function—I have low expectations for the capability to actually deliver. We know how you honour your promises: you just don't. We know that you are big on announcements but abysmal on delivery. The only shining light in this bill is that it will have minimal financial impact—or so you tell us.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Fair Go for Consumers and Small Business) Bill 2024. As my colleagues have indicated, including Senator Liddle, we will be supporting the bill, with some amendments. In short, this bill introduces a single scheduled amendment to the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, enabling the minister to designate entities as designated complainants, allowing them to escalate complaints to the ACCC and receive a response within 90 days. Naturally, the coalition will be closely watching to see who the minister approves. This must not be used as another chance for the government to simply appoint and reward Labor Party friends or union paymasters. I note, in the designated complaints consultation phase of the bill, that the National Farmers Federation made a submission. In part, the NFF said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The NFF supports the introduction of a clear complaints mechanism that enables designated small business advocates to submit a complaint to the ACCC where they have evidence of a significant or systemic market issue that affects consumers or small businesses in Australia.</para></quote>
<para>They go on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed scheme contains positive elements that should encourage greater use of the designated complaints process.</para></quote>
<para>The Farmers Federation also supports the proposed transparency and reporting requirements of the proposed scheme. We've got to get the basics right though.</para>
<para>Consumer and small-business advocates have also emphasised the necessity of a consumer complaints framework. I'm glad to see this government is finally listening to the small-business community. It has taken them a while. They need to listen a lot more, but it's good to see that they're at least showing some willingness to listen.</para>
<para>Up until now, all the government has done is show a deaf ear when it comes to listening to the concerns of small businesses. We saw that on full display with the latest industrial relations changes and reforms. It is evident right throughout their leadership of the economy since being elected that they are not giving due consideration to small businesses. As I said, this was most evident in Labor's new industrial relations laws, which will see trade unions having unfettered access to small businesses, a space that many small businesses, certainly those that have only been in business for the last couple of decades or so, have not seen. If you were in business in the seventies, or you saw it, and you're still around in business, you're seeing what was very strong and evident back then now return here in the business landscape across Australia.</para>
<para>When I visit small businesses, which I try to do as often as I can when I'm back, not here in this place—we get on the ground where the real people are—we see that these businesses are doing it tough. Whether it's getting access to reliable supply chains, getting access to staff or the willingness of people turning up to work or finding people with the skills that are necessary to do the jobs, small businesses are finding it incredibly tough. They are. We're seeing that this government is tying them up time and time again in red tape and overburdensome compliance, and it's demonstrating that it's not really in touch with small businesses' needs. So, when we come back to this debate, I look forward to raising these issues further and ensuring that we have a proper debate.</para>
<para>Debate interrupted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>103</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Functional Neurological Disorder</title>
          <page.no>104</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHARMA</name>
    <name.id>274506</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>25 March is the awareness day for a neurological condition that many people have never heard of. Until two years ago, I didn't know what functional neurological disorder was myself. But, following a significant accident, my sister-in-law was diagnosed with FND, and I've seen her life completely change. She's gone from being a leader within her profession in the educational field, independent, highly functioning and outgoing, to now needing assistance with basic daily tasks, needing rehabilitation to learn how to walk again and having a number of other symptoms which impact her daily life.</para>
<para>FNDs, or functional neurological disorders, are among the most common reasons that people see a neurologist after migraines. For people who are diagnosed with FND, it can be a life-changing and debilitating disorder, and the fact we know so little about it is what is so troubling. Neurological conditions such as MS or Parkinson's disease are widely known and well funded, and rightly so, yet functional neurological disorders are something which many people, even in the medical field, lack understanding of. As the National Mental Health Commission concluded in a 2019 report:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Neurologists are often not well equipped to support the full range of symptoms of FND …</para></quote>
<para>FNDs result from problems with the functioning and connectivity of the nervous system but without associated structural damage to the nervous system—so they're a malfunction rather than a neuropathology or a neurological disease. FND can present in a similar way to some of the more commonly known neurological conditions such as strokes. However, rather than it being an issue with the hardware or a structural issue of the brain, in people with FND the signals or connectivity of the central nervous system—the software, if you like—are no longer functioning as they should. Individuals with FND experience a variety of disabling sensory, motor, cognitive and neurological symptoms. They may partially or totally lose control of their walking, speech, sight or swallowing. They can experience seizures, tremors, dystonia, incontinence and chronic pain. Sensory issues, brain fog and extreme fatigue are also very common. Men, women and children can all be affected by FND, and around 50 in every 100,000 Australians are believed to experience some sort of functional symptoms like this. In 2021, it was estimated that in New South Wales some 200 to 300 people were diagnosed each year as having a functional neurological disorder.</para>
<para>For many people who are suffering from FNDs, access to services is restricted due to a lack of public multidisciplinary treatments created specifically for FND, and the cost of private treatment, as my sister-in-law has discovered, can be prohibitive. Often, as well, people who are suffering from FND have to deal with misdiagnosis and frequently with disbelief and scepticism, which only makes their condition more challenging. The National Disability Insurance Scheme, for instance, requires individuals to prove that they have completed all forms of treatment available for the condition of FND to be considered permanent and hence for them to be eligible to access the scheme. As FND can leave many people unable to work full time or at all, the impact on individuals and families, economically, socially and emotionally, can be devastating.</para>
<para>The only FND charity and support group in Australia—called FND Australia Support Services—is run by a single individual who suffers from FND, with no government funding or resources and with all the support provided by volunteers who also suffer from FND. We need to do more. There need to be specific services for those with FNDs, who experience real and significant disabilities due to this neurological condition. It's simply not enough to be directed to a website about FND upon diagnosis and then to be discharged—an experience which, sadly, many people with FND have had. There is some hope that, with an increase in understanding and greater awareness of FND and with new research being undertaken both here in Australia and overseas, awareness and knowledge is growing. Today, on FND Awareness Day, I want to recognise all FND warriors, their families and their carers.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>St John Eye Hospital</title>
          <page.no>104</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McLACHLAN</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wish to provide senators with an update on the incredible humanitarian work of the St John Eye Hospital in the Holy Land. Senators would be aware from my previous contributions to the Senate of the amazing work that hospital staff are doing at great peril to themselves. It is very necessary work to ensure that those suffering receive care despite the ongoing conflict. St John has only one reason for being: serving the sick, regardless of their religion or origin and regardless of whether there is war or peace. Senators would also be aware that I am honoured to be a member of the Order of St John and a longstanding volunteer with St John Ambulance.</para>
<para>The decision of the Order of St John in 1882 to found an eye hospital was inspired by the highest humanitarian aim: to alleviate the suffering caused by eye disease. To date, the hospital has served the people of the Holy Land for over 140 years and treated in excess of 15 million people. This is an incredible achievement, having regard to the political uncertainties that, unfortunately, mark this region. I recently had the privilege of talking to Dr Ahmad Ma'ali, the chief executive officer of the hospital. I thank him for being so generous with his time, especially given the challenges for the hospital that he must navigate as its leader. He briefed me on the incredible work that the hospital staff are doing to ensure that care is continuing to be delivered to those in need despite the ravages of war.</para>
<para>The hospital in Gaza is the most affected of the St John clinics, and the building has suffered damage. In response, St John is operating multiple satellite sites and clinics, which enable it to continue to provide care. Tragically, two St John nurses have been killed in the conflict, as well as family members of hospital staff. My thoughts and prayers are with their loved ones. They will be remembered. All staff continue to be paid and supported, thanks to the incredible generosity of the global St John community. Clinics have faced difficulties in obtaining supplies but, despite these challenges, hospital staff have operated on more than 6,000 patients since the conflict began and continue to find innovative ways to deliver eye care. The St John global community is committed to ensuring that, after the conflict, the hospital in Gaza will be repaired and rebuilt so that we might continue our important humanitarian work. Again, I thank Dr Ahmad for his leadership, courage and dedication. He and his staff are an example to us all, and their work is in the highest tradition of the Order of St John. Pro fide, pro utilitate hominum.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Television</title>
          <page.no>105</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation supports the Broadcasting Services Amendment (Community Television) Bill 2024. Across community television and radio, 17,000 volunteers and almost 1,000 employees generate $250 million in value each year, every year. The federal government contributes $43 million towards the cost—or, I should say, the taxpayers do. I wish there were more recipients of government funding, taxpayer funding, with that good a return on investment. In 2017 the national network of community TV stations was attracting more than one million unique viewers a week. Top programs were attracting 400,000 viewers, including off-peak repeats in the week of release. In 2024 those ratings would rank in the top 20 of free-to-air and cable shows. That's why Malcolm Turnbull destroyed community TV, moving channels off free to air to an online model where a commercial business plan was impossible, thus returning a million viewers a week to commercial television, which was suffering from falling ratings and advertising revenue. Channel 31 and C44 in Adelaide resisted and were saved as a result of work by One Nation and the Greens. Ratings on free-to-air television have fallen since 2017 in terms of the percentage of available screens because mainstream television is mostly absolute rubbish, completely lacking in the creativity and anarchy that attracted such a large and loyal following to stations like C31. Community TV is at times weird and wonderful. Programs with heart and soul have been replaced with commercial programs devoid of those very qualities.</para>
<para>The small cost of community TV must be considered in the wider context. Community TV provides a training ground for talent, scriptwriters, make-up artists, producers, directors, sound and lighting. The former TVS in Sydney was based out of the University of Western Sydney school of media in Kingswood, offering students both theoretical and practical tuition. C31 is based out of RMIT in Melbourne. The now closed C31 in Brisbane included programming using students from the Queensland University of Technology. Mainstream television look for graduates of community television when hiring staff. If community TV did not exist then the taxpayers would be on the hook for vocational education training places to teach those skills.</para>
<para>As a result of the closure of all states except Melbourne and Adelaide, small businesses across the country have been deprived of the opportunity to access advertising on broadcast television. Many brands have grown their business and community TV and now find advertising on commercial TV is unaffordable. Often small business can't even get a TV advertising salesman to return their calls.</para>
<para>This legislation, which extends C31 and C44 licences into the future is welcome. Yet it's half a solution. Community TV deserves to get their broadcast rights back in the upcoming digital television restack promise for 2024 and now apparently some years away, so it'll survive for a while. The restack will involve moving our broadcast and television channels closer together to free up a large contiguous section of bandwidth that would then be sold off to telcos. The taxpayers will make north of $1 billion out of the sale; telcos will make much much more.</para>
<para>There we have it. Community TV is likely to disappear permanently because the interests of mainstream mouthpiece media and telcos have aligned against it. Mainstream TV want the viewers; telcos want the bandwidth. Welcome to Australia where the power is in the hands of foreign shareholders of television and telecommunication companies, and everyday Australians just don't matter. Our kids are getting free hands-on tuition in television production does not seem to matter. Having a channel that doesn't offer propaganda and prurient rubbish doesn't seem to matter.</para>
<para>It's disappointing that Minister Rowland declined to support my second reading amendment, which I had intended to foreshadow to guarantee bandwidth for community TV in the upcoming digital restack. I understand the argument the government is using. There's an inquiry into the future of free-to-air broadcasting—also called over-the-top broadcasting. Committing to community TV now though does get ahead of the inquiry findings. But, so what? If there was any real intention on the part of the government to go against the powerful financial influence of telcos and broadcast stations, the government would have supported my amendment.</para>
<para>The government, sadly, is not prepared to guarantee one tiny little bit of bandwidth for community TV. One Nation is prepared to make that guarantee because we are not beholden to the foreign predatory billionaires and their wealth funds. As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I urge community TV and radio to continue broadcasting. As the people's media, you perform a vital service. Thank you.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 2 0 :13</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>