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<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2023-12-04</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Monday, 4 December 2023</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 10:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Meeting</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>New South Wales</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Senators Sworn</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Scheme</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have previously outlined to the Senate details of the government's claim for public interest immunity over documents related to the NDIS Financial Sustainability Framework. I refer senators to these comments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the document.</para></quote>
<para>Another week goes by and another failure to comply from the Albanese government to this simple request of the Senate. The Senate once again refutes the public interest immunity claim made by the government over this vital document. Again, I remind the government that this is the document on the basis of which the government in its budget has booked billions of dollars of cuts—so-called savings they present to the chamber—in our NDIS. I find it ironic that we are once again back here trying to extract this basic information from the government, asking them to engage in what really should be a baseline level of transparency at a time when the minister, Bill Shorten and others, are out right now engaging in a public campaign calling on state and territory ministers to join with them in changes to the NDIS. One of bases of these requests for changes is they say we should be able to come together transparently and collaboratively to chart the pathway forward for the NDIS.</para>
<para>I would suggest that if the government want to states and territories to join with them in that work, let alone if the government want the disability community to have trust in the government as they undertake that work, the very least they could do is comply with a basic request from the Australian Senate to produce a financial sustainability framework that they signed off with their state and territory chief ministers and premiers before the last budget. If the government can't even cough up a basic document like this, upon which over $50 billion of so-called savings has been baked into the federal budget, then why should the states and territories engage in a process of reform with the Commonwealth? And why should the public trust the government in this work if they aren't willing to be transparent about the agreements they have already made with state and territory chief ministers and premiers? No reason at all.</para>
<para>This Senate, at least for the part of the Australian Greens, will continue to insist that the government comply with the orders of the Senate and cough up this document, which they agreed with state and territory chief ministers and upon which they put so much emphasis in their budget. It may annoy members in the ALP Senate team that we continue to do this, but, quite frankly, the annoyance of the ALP Senate team is nothing compared to the obligation I feel to the 4.4 million disabled Australians who want to know exactly what their government has already agreed in relation to their NDIS, particularly when that government has framed the so call independent review of the NDIS as an authentic explanation and exploration of what is to be the future of the NDIS.</para>
<para>A key question remains in the minds of the disability community. In the independent review of the NDIS is independent, if it was really empowered to explore what the future of the NDIS should be, then why, during the conduct of the review, did the government admit to a framework upon which it then booked over $50 billion in so-called saved revenue in relation to the NDIS?</para>
<para>That is a very legitimate question. The government may wish to refute that, and all they need to do to put that concern to rest is to cough up the document—so cough it up. It is a simple and basic thing to do. We have asked you now sitting after sitting. As far as the Greens are concerned, we will continue to ask you for this document because it is a request for a basic level of transparency that you committed to at the federal election.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, I said we'd be back. It's 'Ministerial Lack of Accountability Monday', and every Monday we'll be back, asking for these documents. That this government is hiding behind a public immunity claim is just shameful. This government said during the election campaign that they would be all about transparency. They said they'd be all open. But we also had Minister Shorten out there talking about the demand driven scheme, saying that there would be no cuts. He said he was a friend of the disability community. That is farcical. We are seeing this campaign ramping up, ramping up and ramping up, with Minister Shorten now getting into an almost threatening position with the state premiers as we head into a disability ministers' meeting this week—and we know National Cabinet will probably meet this week—and we are going to see the Bonyhady review presented. The Bonyhady review was actually due in October, and we were told that we would have the Bonyhady review in October. But, actually, during the last round of estimates, we found out that no-one was going to get the review until it had been through National Cabinet, and at that stage no-one could tell us when National Cabinet would meet. Thankfully, I managed to find out during estimates that it would meet in the week of 4 December. So it was to be buried until the end of the year. They were hoping that they could, fundamentally, put this review out with the trash. They could put it out just before Christmas, hoping no-one would notice. Shame on all of you.</para>
<para>I can tell you that, on the weekend, I've been getting messages from a number of families whose concerns are increasing about their child's access within the NDIS. These are kids who were diagnosed long before the DSM-IV became the DSM-5 and who were not diagnosed autism level 1, 2 or 3. They were diagnosed as 'classical autism'. They weren't given PDD-NOS or global development delay. They weren't given a diagnosis of Asperger's or any of the diagnoses that now don't exist anymore and fall under autism level 1. They actually were given 'classical autism'. They also had delays. Many of them had an intellectual disability tied in with that. They are now concerned because, as their kids have got a bit older, in some areas they're now being classified as autism level 2 and some as autism level 3. These parents don't understand whether or not their child is still going to be covered by the scheme because autism is being used as the catch-all for where they're saying that they're going to cut from this scheme. But we wouldn't know. No-one knows where they got these figures from. We know that the transparency they promised is a complete myth. We know that the transparency they proposed was a slogan, a bit like the promise of $275 off your power bill. It actually had nothing to do with reality and how they were planning to govern; it was just a slogan they put forward.</para>
<para>The claim is that the reason for not providing us with this document—this framework for how they were going to cut billions and billions of dollars out of the NDIS—is that this would upset our relationship with the states. I will give you a tip. Have a look at any of the newspapers today and even some over the weekend, and you will see that the premiers aren't that happy with you guys anyway. They're already not that happy. They're not that happy when it comes to your infrastructure cuts. They're absolutely not that happy now that Minister Shorten is not really being upfront with them. We've actually got Jacinta Allan, the Premier of Victoria, saying, 'It's completely irrelevant, Mr Shorten,' because she's only going to deal with Albanese anyway. And Albanese is the one who, I understand, said to Shorten, 'Just go and cut a whole lot of autistic kids out of the NDIS.'</para>
<para>This is going from bad to worse. It is a farce, and this is just compounding the fear that families of children with severe, significant, permanent and lifelong disabilities are facing, because they know that this government doesn't actually want to provide services and assistance for people with a disability. What they're more interested in doing is providing job opportunities for those that will join the HSU.</para>
<para>All they're interested in is boosting the service providers who will join their mates' unions. It's not about the participants, for those over there.</para>
<para>Now, I'm the first to say that the states have vacated the field. But that was because, when Prime Minister Gillard negotiated the NDIS, she said to all the states, to get them on board: 'Hey, don't worry about any increases in costs. The Commonwealth will bear those.' So, as the scheme has continued to grow, it has been the Commonwealth that has been picking up the tab. But, to boost that, the states have vacated the field; they've taken away community health and the supports they'd provided in the education services—which is their responsibility; constitutionally, that is their purview. They have vacated the field.</para>
<para>Not only are Mr Shorten and Prime Minister Albanese treating the ministers and premiers of states with contempt; they're treating this Senate with contempt and they are treating the Australian disability community with contempt.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Here we are again: yet another Monday, with this government showing a scandalous disregard for not only those in this place but also all Australians. From me as the Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme, the Labor Party, Senator Steele-John and the entire disability community asked for more transparency, and I delivered it. I delivered far more transparency than there had ever been before. It's not comfortable, sometimes, having all of that information out there, but it is incredibly important.</para>
<para>What has this government done? They've got rid of the monthly reports. They're not now releasing the actuarial data that is so important for those in the sector and in this place to actually understand where they have made those $74 billion of cuts. Somehow, magically, they're going to reduce scheme growth, which is still going upwards and is now 15 per cent per annum. They're magically going to cut $74 billion out of this scheme over the next decade and reduce that growth rate to eight per cent. It will not happen.</para>
<para>Sadly, despite the Albanese government having bipartisan and, in fact, multipartisan support to engage in the discussion that is required to save this scheme—because that is where the scheme is at now: it is on an uncontrollable and unsustainable trajectory of growth—and instead of working together to fix the scheme, they've tried to perpetuate the biggest ever fraud on Australian taxpayers and on people with serious and permanent disability by saying that they can somehow cut $74 billion out of the scheme and not cut participant numbers and participants' plans. It is a complete nonsense.</para>
<para>With this public interest immunity claim, there are two tests. They haven't even bothered to try and meet the second test. And they've got this tiny little fig leaf of an excuse for the first test, and that is the reason. Well, the only reason they've been able to provide is that it may jeopardise Commonwealth-state/territory relations. Well, it will only jeopardise them if you have something to hide. I tell you what: from having a look at the papers, as Senator Hughes has said, over the last week, that ship has sailed. Minister Shorten and the Prime Minister have completely and utterly stuffed the process with the states and territories on the NDIS.</para>
<para>Now, over the last 18 months, they could and should have been having productive discussions with all in this place, with the sector and with states and territories, to fix the endemic structural issues that are putting this scheme on a pathway to failure—and nobody in this place wants to see that happen. But, until those structural issues are fixed, the scheme will continue to run out of financial control, and that is a fact. The government has to find a way to repair its relationships with and to regain the trust of the sector and of those in this place—and of the state and territory governments, who are also equally responsible for the scheme being where it is today.</para>
<para>So let's have no more of this coming in here for 10 seconds—in fact, less, this time, the minister spoke for. It is wrong.</para>
<para>Well over three years ago, as minister, I offered the hand of bipartisanship, on behalf of the coalition government at the time, to Bill Shorten and to the Labor Party. Instead, what did Bill Shorten do?</para>
<para>He denied there was any problem with the scheme. He made promises to the sector and participants. He made promises that he knew he could never keep. And now he's trying to, very duplicitously, hide what they are actually doing with the scheme, because they are cutting this scheme. They are cutting this scheme in a way—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McAllister</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm rising in relation to imputations. I think that some of the language Senator Reynolds is now using veers into imputation. I would just ask you to draw her attention to the standing orders.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't think it quite got there, but I'm sure the member is going to be mindful going forward.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Deputy President. Bill Shorten as the shadow minister promised—he promised!—every participant and their family that there would be no cuts to plans. $74 billion worth of cuts he's made, and he has not provided one skerrick of information—in fact, they are hiding it—that would demonstrate where those cuts are coming from. This week, with the release of the report, finally this government has to show some leadership, some honesty and some transparency. We have time to save this scheme, but not with the way this government has conducted itself over the past 18 months. We are still here to work with you.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to make three quick points, and I've made these points before—as Senator Steele-John has made, as Senator Reynolds has made, as Senator Hughes has made and as we continue to make on Mondays of sitting weeks.</para>
<para>The first point, for people in the gallery who are watching this debate: what is happening is that both the Greens and the coalition are seeking crucial additional information in relation to the sustainability of one of the country's most important social programs—that is, the National Disability Insurance Scheme. We're seeking further information with respect to how sustainable the program is given the cuts that were announced, of $74 billion over the next 10 years, by the relevant minister and by the Labor government at the time of the last budget. What the Greens and the coalition are seeking are the actuarial documents, the key supporting documents, for those cuts of $74 billion. How was that figure calculated? What was the basis upon it being calculated? And, as Senator Reynolds has frequently said: if you are going to cut funding from a scheme like the NDIS you are either going to cut the number of participants or going to cut the amount that is spent per participant. There's no other way to do it.</para>
<para>We're seeking the key documents which form the evidential base upon which the government has sought to cut $74 billion from that scheme, and the government refuses to provide those documents to the Senate. We're not seeking those documents for ourselves; we're seeking them for you. We're seeking them for the current participants in the scheme and for future participants in the scheme and their families who try to get them onto the scheme. That's why we're seeking those documents. That's our job as a Senate, as a house of scrutiny, as a house of review: to seek those documents so that we can examine them and ask questions of the government in relation to their assumptions based on the evidential base, and the government is refusing to provide those documents to us.</para>
<para>The second point I want to make is in relation to the basis upon which the government continues to refuse to provide those documents. As Senator Reynolds said, it's on the basis of what's called a public interest immunity claim—that, amongst other things, the release of those documents could harm the relationship between the Commonwealth and the states. It's an absolutely nonsensical argument in my view. How can the release of an evidential base for a decision made in the budget harm relations between the Commonwealth and the state?</para>
<para>Let's just talk about the relations between the Commonwealth and the state in the context of this debate at the moment. This is a quote from the last day or so that was published in the <inline font-style="italic">Guardian</inline> from the Labor Premier of New South Wales with respect to the scheme:</para>
<quote><para class="block">If Bill Shorten wants to remove people from the NDIS, he can do it.</para></quote>
<para>This is the Labor Premier, Chris Minns. He continues:</para>
<quote><para class="block">What he can't say is the states will take up the services because we handed over both our public servants and our money to the commonwealth a decade ago for them to run it—</para></quote>
<para>to manage the scheme.</para>
<para>That's what the Labor Premier, Chris Minns, said. The state premiers and the minister are at each other's throats already in relation to this. How would agreeing to the Senate's requests to release this information have a negative impact on the relationship between the Commonwealth and the states? It wouldn't. The evidence is clear that the claim of public interest immunity is spurious.</para>
<para>I come back to the original point. This is one of Australia's most important social programs. In the last budget the government announced they were cutting $74 billion from it over the next 10 years, and they refused to provide this Senate—to provide you—with the evidential basis for that. That's the reason for the debate we're having at the moment, and that is the reason why the Greens and the coalition and, no doubt, other members of the crossbench are seeking that information from the government.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>4</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023, Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>4</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7083" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7084" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>4</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As stated earlier by Senator Ruston, the coalition is supporting the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 for what's in it and the harm minimisation scheme, but I want to talk today about what's not in it.</para>
<para>It seems that this government and the minister have decided to, in Douglas Adams's words, paint it pink and put an SEP filter—a somebody else's problem filter—on the problem of harm minimisation for tobacco. This makes it tough for big tobacco—it does. A health warning is going to be printed on every cigarette packet. There's going to be a reduction in flavours, and all sorts of things will be put on it. But what we're forgetting is that up to half of tobacco in Australia now is illegal. It is chop-chop. It's not a couple of guys out of West Wyalong growing a few plants and putting some out in the local market. It is big industry—just as big as big tobacco—in countries such as China and the countries of the Middle East, in tax-free zones. That's how they're looked at. They are producing tobacco, and gangs, not companies, are bringing it into the country and selling it. You can go down to a shop here. I don't smoke. I never smoked. I don't even know where to buy it. I bought Barnaby a pack in a campaign once. I asked for two packs and put 50 bucks on the table, and they laughed at me. So they're pretty expensive. I don't know what they're going for. But it is half the price you pay down at the local stores here.</para>
<para>This is what's going on. They've got this massive thing going on: 'Look at what we're doing to big tobacco. How tough are we? We're stopping this.' But the laws aren't applying to illegal tobacco. We've taxed tobacco to a point now where the profit motive to do this illegally—bring in illegal tobacco and sell it cheaply, or buy a pack from China or buy a pack of illegal stuff at your local thing—is there. We're not getting the statistics. You can't improve what you can't measure. I'm not sure that Mr and Mrs Organised Crime are getting their business activity statements in and putting, 'This is how many packets we sold last week.' I think their biggest problem is trying to deal with the cash—trying to find enough pokies to put the cash through and clean it. We can say all these great things: 'Aren't we good?' But are we doing this to fix a political problem for ourselves or doing it to fix a health problem for the country? I think this bill only does the first. It makes us look tough on what we're doing, without doing the real things.</para>
<para>What is the cost of doing business? If you get caught with a shipment of drugs or anything like that, you go to jail for a long time. Recently in Australia, those involved in importing a container full of illicit nicotine, $9 million worth on the street, got a $5,000 fine. That is the cost of doing business. I'm not sure you can get a speeding fine that high, but you can get a fine like that for many other things. That's just not right. This doesn't touch that. This doesn't touch the fact that there are now copy cigarettes that are so popular that there are copies of copy cigarettes. Fakers and wrong stuff are now being copied. You can go to any store down here. This is just like the movie <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">Untouchables</inline>. We don't want to address it because it's too hard. We have prohibited so much in Australia, but the flow is there and we just don't want to know. We get aspects of it: 'Smoking has reduced in Australia. Tobacco sales are down.'</para>
<para>We've got IGA members and all sorts of shops saying that they're selling less but they see their customers still smoking—smoking more, smoking different, smoking illegal. But what do we say? We say, 'Well done.' We say, 'Big tobacco, we showed you. Print the labels and the other things. Do that.' We have to do more on harm minimisation. It is the same with vaping. It is exactly the same as with nicotine. We don't touch that. We don't go near it in this bill. I have had people come to me and say that their kid would rather get detention for wearing their sports uniform to school all day than get changed in the bathroom, because there are people vaping in there all day, and he cops abuse. He'd rather get detention than cop that. That is where we're at, and what does this bill do about that? Nothing. Not a thing.</para>
<para>Who brings all these illegal vaping products in? Organised crime, again. It's getting to the point where we as a parliament are the protection racket for organised crime in Australia. We are the marketing arm. We make it so hard for the legal business, restricting them—when they have their board meetings and try and make things better—that organised crime is the beneficiary. And we are their enforcement arm. The decisions we make make their business model viable. They make it possible. And what do these people put in their products? We don't know. If any of these big tobacco companies do something wrong—they can't put a flavour bomb in the products now—there is action taken against them in court. Police do things. This parliament takes action. But what if organised crime does it? Nothing. There is no accountability, and we are driving people into the arms of this.</para>
<para>We need Kevin Costner and Sean Connery out there on the field again, finding these bad people, just like <inline font-style="italic">The Untouchables</inline>, and saying that it has to stop. It is here. When every OECD country in the world other than us and Turkiye say it is legal, it's the same problem they had in Chicago when Canada and Mexico were across the border: you can't stop what goes in. We heard in Queensland that there is arsenic, formaldehyde and all sorts of things in these vapes. What goes into tobacco? Where is it grown? How is it grown? In the countries it comes from, what they do is not illegal. These products are being produced legally and brought here illegally.</para>
<para>But 'How good,' we say, 'we've got a tobacco bill in front of us. We'll show big tobacco who's boss.' Good. Harm minimisation should be there. But what are we doing about the real problem? Half-price smokes are attractive to kids. Cheap vapes are available anywhere. I've made lots of <inline font-style="italic">Untouchables</inline> references, Acting Deputy President, but remember the scene where the taxidriver says, 'If you want to see alcohol, I'll show you where it is,' and he takes him to a pub, goes in and gets it straightaway? I've never smoked, never vaped, but 10 minutes from here I'm able to buy one with a card at a convenience store. It's the same for Chinese chop-chop.</para>
<para>So let's stop kidding ourselves and pretending that this bill does anything other than tighten things for the people who already obey the rules. With this bill, we're creating a bigger market for the illegal crime gangs. With this bill, we're creating a bigger market for those who prey on our youth and put things in their products that cause them harm. I bet you everything I've got that kids who fall sick with vapes aren't falling sick from things that are prescribed by a doctor and bought from New Zealand. They are falling sick from vapes accessed illegally.</para>
<para>And what about the taxpayer? It is estimated that there could be $6 billion in revenue from tax on the illegal tobacco market. In here, we throw numbers around willy-nilly. Six billion dollars is a lot. How many cops and Border Force security would $6 billion pay for, to make our kids safer? But that's not a concern, because we look tough. This legislation will be supported by us, because it's better than not supporting it, and it's better to make the legal products safer. But this government has to get real on all sorts of nicotine, both tobacco and vapes, and bring forward things that will make our schools safer, our streets safer and our kids safer. It should bring in things that will make a transition from tobacco dependency easier.</para>
<para>In the committee inquiry into this legislation, we spoke to police officers, and their morale is low because they see these things happening and they have very little ability to do anything. They can't police everyone with a vape.</para>
<para>Someone in Western Australia got arrested the other day, and there was an outcry. Step 30 metres either side of this chamber and you'll find people with vapes that were not purchased on prescription, but we pretend and pretend and pretend.</para>
<para>So let's get this done. Let's vote for this as quickly as we can so that we can get onto the real problems of the criminals, the gangs and the crime families that profit off the government being their protection arm and off the government making their business model.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to offer a brief contribution to the debate on the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023. This is an important bill and, clearly, a very important discussion. I enjoyed Senator Cadell's contribution.</para>
<para>While there's been a downward trend in daily tobacco smoking since 1991, it is still the leading cause of cancer in Australia. It contributes to 44 percent of the cancer burden in Australia and is estimated to cause the deaths of some 20,000 Australians per year. That's a lot of loss. That is a lot of mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters, children and friends taken too early, sometimes in the prime of their lives. This amount of loss is devastating, and we rarely talk about it because of the stigma associated with smoking. We need to be doing more, not just to stop new generations from smoking but also to provide people with the support that they may need if they would like to quit. In saying that, I feel we all need to take a non-judgemental, supportive approach to quitting, supported by strong public health measures.</para>
<para>Australia has led the way for decades on tobacco control, and today we can boast one of the lowest smoking rates in the world. To give an example: our nation's plain-packaging reforms were world leading when they were first introduced. According to at least one government study, they led to a huge 25 per cent decline in smoking rates between 2012 and 2015. This bill doesn't just ensure a continuation of the plain-packaging rules, which would otherwise sunset next year; it also completely modernises our public health approach to tobacco. As we heard in the inquiry, this bill takes the best bits from every jurisdiction in the world and combines them into a single instrument aimed at making tobacco less appealing, less attractive and less addictive.</para>
<para>This bill will update and improve health warnings on tobacco products. It will restrict additives that make cigarettes more appealing, more attractive and more addictive. It will curtail the loopholes that allow big tobacco to skirt plain-packaging rules through the use of brand and variant names. It will require tobacco manufacturers to add health inserts into packs. It will improve compliance, and marketing and advertising laws. It will allow the government to require measures that make cigarette sticks unappealing, such as the use of coloured paper or warnings written on the sticks themselves. It will even ban the advertising of e-cigarettes for the first time. It is a comprehensive package of reforms, and I want to commend Minister Butler and the Department of Health and Aged Care for bringing this legislation forward and for prioritising public health. I will note my support for the investments the minister is also making in public health measures to complement this legislation, including the funding that is being provided to re-establish a national tobacco TV campaign.</para>
<para>I want to raise an issue that has troubled me throughout the consideration of this bill, and that is the conduct of witnesses at the inquiry—specifically, the conduct of both the Australian Association of Convenience Stores and Master Grocers Australia. During the inquiry, both the chair and I put questions on notice relating to their financial ties with the tobacco and vaping industries. Australia has international obligations to diminish the political influence of the tobacco industry in the interests of protecting our tobacco control policies from the influence of big tobacco. The questions were highly relevant so that we, as senators and as the Senate, could be vigilant against any disguised motivations from parties with a financial stake in the tobacco industry. Both groups refused to answer these questions.</para>
<para>We have the right to ask these questions, and we are empowered to do so. We also have the right to expect honest answers. Their refusal to answer these basic questions on their financial relationships with the tobacco and vaping industries shows disrespect to this chamber which I believe borders on contempt. I would urge the chamber to take action on this, as failing to do so diminishes the inherent authority of the Senate and its ability to ask questions that others may find inconvenient. We cannot accept hidden influence from the tobacco industry, and we must question it if we suspect that there is this influence.</para>
<para>Shortly I will be moving a second reading amendment that calls on all politicians and political parties to stop accepting donations from tobacco companies and, importantly, to revoke their access to this building. There is obviously no transparency around who holds sponsored passes to access Parliament House, but we know big tobacco do wander these halls, presumably to find choice moments to bump into their mates and to give them copies of the latest talking points. This is why we desperately need transparency around which lobbyists hold access to this building. I bet, if big tobacco knew their names would become public, they would be handing back their passes. They would be doing that because we all know that it is completely outside the public interest for big tobacco to be in this building. If they are, then we should know who is here and how they got access. In 2023 no politician or political party should be accepting donations from big tobacco. I find it disgraceful that an industry that has caused so much despair in our community could be allowed to curry favour with politicians by making donations. I'm certain they don't make these donations with the expectation that they'll get nothing in return. Those donations almost certainly assist with access and therefore assist with influence over people in this chamber and in the other place, in direct conflict with our obligations under the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. This is the only convention that we are party to that covers lobbying. The arrangements, to me, seem pretty loose in Parliament House. I'd urge the major parties to take this more seriously and align it with what I'm hearing are expectations from Australians—from the people that we represent.</para>
<para>Finally, I want to speak briefly on vaping. It's not the subject of this bill, but the two are clearly related. I'm pleased the government is bringing forward reforms. I've heard from too many parents here in the ACT who are concerned about their children, some of them young children, and their friends vaping. They are rightly scared about these extremely addictive products, with some of the disposable vapes reportedly containing levels of nicotine that are dangerous to young lungs, not being regulated and children being addicted in their early teens. I do have questions about the reforms that are coming forward. I want to be sure that we're not leaving people without the support that they may need. I want to be sure there is a plan and there are options for people that would like assistance in moving off nicotine. Again, I would like to acknowledge the work of Minister Butler, his staff and the department in bringing forward this legislation. A package this comprehensive would have been the labour of dozens of public servants working behind the scenes across multiple departments and agencies, so I thank you for all of your work on this.</para>
<para>There are a range of investments that have been made to complement this legislation, and I know there are many advocates and many stakeholders who will be keeping an eye on that funding to ensure programs and campaigns do come to fruition. I hope this will all reach the very worthy goal of cutting daily smoking to five per cent or below by 2030, as stated in the National Tobacco Strategy 2023-2030. We can do it. As we travel this renewed phase in tobacco control, let's keep in mind the need to treat everyone with understanding and with dignity. Stigma is clearly counterproductive to our goals on tobacco control. I commend this bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm only seeking to make a brief contribution to this debate and I won't be going through all the measures in the bills that have been well covered by Senator Pocock and other senators before me. I just want to say very clearly here today that the bills before us are about saving lives. Tobacco kills. We have known this fact for so long. The first warning signs of tobacco and its impact emerged in the 1600s and it was around 100 years ago that the link between lung cancer and smoking first emerged. Yet despite all that we have known for so long, tobacco remains our country's leading cause of preventable death and disability, killing an estimated 20,000 Australians each year. Despite all we know, smoking rates remain too high in our community for a range of reasons. They are too high for members of our community who cannot afford the costs and the impacts of tobacco smoking and nicotine addiction. Despite having been regulatory leaders around the world under the previous Labor government, now our regulatory framework for tobacco simply isn't keeping up and, on top of that, the regulatory framework is messy.</para>
<para>Our current tobacco related measures are split across as many as eight different laws, regulations, instruments and court decisions. The government's own legislation prohibiting certain forms of tobacco advertising is now 30 years old. But worst of all, our current framework is lacking in ambition. This bill advances the reform agenda Nicola Roxon championed a decade ago but which was left to fall to the wayside by the former government, a reform agenda that was dubbed by then shadow health minister Mr Peter Dutton as a bridge too far. The reforms weren't a bridge too far; they were courageous and visionary reforms and an example of where bold policy reform cannot only improve lives but save them and where Australia can lead the world.</para>
<para>Since then, 26 countries have followed Australia's example. It is now time to catch up. It is now time to go further. This is a matter of life and death. We must reduce uptake of smoking, particularly among young people. Quitting is bloody hard. I know just how hard it is and I don't want a single young person in our country to ever have to go through that. They shouldn't be going through that given all we know. These reforms matter and, like with any progressive change, there are going to be some loud voices opposing what we want to do. We have already seen it in the committee inquiry into this bill, which I chaired.</para>
<para>The evidence we received as a committee was overwhelmingly clear and obvious. There was a huge support from public health experts, stakeholders and advocates for the measures contained in these bills, because these are no-brainers. The harm caused by tobacco is as obvious as it is devastating and it is this harm that we are trying to address with these bills. But there was some opposition and it came from exactly where you would expect to find it—the tobacco industry and those they work so closely with. At this point I want to make it absolutely clear that the behaviour on display by some witnesses throughout the course of our inquiry was unacceptable to our committee and it was unacceptable to me as chair. Two witnesses in particular showed what I believe to be a blatant disregard for transparency and for the Senate committee process, not to mention a lack of understanding of Australia's obligations under article 5.3 of the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control.</para>
<para>The Australian Association of Convenience Stores and Master Grocers Australia failed to answer questions put by me and by Senator Pocock regarding their conflicts of interest despite being told that this would be requested of them immediately prior to their attendance at one of our public hearings. As we have outlined in our report, our committee considers the refusal by witnesses to answer these questions in full coupled with their apparent lack of understanding of article 5.3 deeply concerning. Transparency is essential to our work in legislative scrutiny. I can assure such groups that our committee will be taking these issues very, very seriously when it comes to any future legislative review we may be undertaking in this space. I am sure there will be much more work in this space because this is a matter of life and death. Australia has been a world leader in tobacco regulation and reform before. Under the Albanese Labor government we will be world leaders again. I commend these bills to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023. Without addressing the growing black market and the evidence that the sale of illegal products is a significant problem, this bill is significantly and abjectly lacking. The evidence is that smoking is decreasing but e-cigarettes and vapes are increasing. A few weeks ago in Adelaide, I walked into a stairwell in which there were so many discarded vape cartridges that it was difficult not to step on one. We know children are, unfortunately, taking up e-cigarettes or vaping in increasing numbers.</para>
<para>The key purpose of the bill is to consolidate existing Commonwealth tobacco legislation into a single act. This bill updates and improves graphic health warnings on packaging; requires health promotion inserts in packs and pouches; captures e-cigarettes in advertising restrictions; standardises the size of tobacco packets and products; prevents the use of specified ingredients in tobacco products; standardises the design and look of filters in cigarettes; limits the use of appealing brand and variant names that imply reduced harm; introduces reporting requirements for the tobacco industry to disclose tobacco product ingredients, tobacco product sales volumes and promotional activities; and restricts the use of flavours and additives. These are all worthy initiatives, and the coalition supports these initiatives, but we seek to strengthen the penalties for those who participate in the illegal trade in tobacco products. The Labor government believes the black market issue sits outside the bill and this inquiry, yet at the same time it suggests these initiatives will also be a stronger deterrent for illegal tobacco activities. I can't see how that works when the starting point of illegal and black market suppliers is not to play by the rules.</para>
<para>The illegal trade in tobacco not only deprives retailers of business but also undermines public health initiatives put in place by consecutive governments to discourage people from taking up smoking and continuing to smoke. The National Tobacco Strategy 2023-2030 and the minister talk about laws, regulations and instruments being convoluted, outdated and full of loopholes, yet this bill fails to adequately address the illegal tobacco trade. This illegal trade should be at front of mind. The bill seeks to regulate advertising and promotion of e-cigarettes but does not address the issue of availability and supply.</para>
<para>These days we are all aware of the damage to a person's health that smoking causes, as outlined by the World Health Organization. Tobacco smoking remains the leading preventable cause of death and disease in Australia, and it claims the lives of around 24,000 Australians each year. As I'm sure all in the chamber are aware, smoking leads to a wide range of diseases, including many types of cancers, heart disease and stroke, chest and lung illnesses, and stomach ulcers. Yet still more than one in 10 Australians over 18 years of age smoke, and many of these people are in low-socioeconomic demographics.</para>
<para>If you want to close the gap in life expectancy, reducing tobacco in Indigenous communities will go a long way to doing that. Overall, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people are almost three times as likely to smoke as non-Indigenous Australians. Tobacco use within this cohort has substantially reduced over a 10-year period, but it still causes 37 per cent of all First Nations deaths, including 50 per cent of deaths among those aged 45 years and over, and is directly responsible for one-third of cancer and cardiovascular disease.</para>
<para>The Royal Australian College of General Practitioners tells us that women who smoke are at significantly greater risk of developing smoking related disease than men. Women are also at risk of pregnancy related complications due to smoking and have more difficulty quitting. Supporting women to stop smoking during pregnancy can reduce the adverse outcomes for mothers and their babies.</para>
<para>The rising cost of living is affecting all Australians, but obviously those being impacted hardest are people on limited incomes, and a high proportion of this group of people are cigarette smokers.</para>
<para>With the average cost of a packet of 25 cigarettes today between $50 and $60, there is a heightened incentive for those involved in the illegal trade in tobacco to target people who still want to smoke and are also looking to save money in this cost-of-living crisis. We can all say give it up, which I too would advocate, but many reformed smokers will tell us that it is one of the hardest things to do. That is why it is still so important to continue to have the public health programs and warnings about the impact of smoking. These public programs require taxpayer funds. I am sure that all in this chamber support the aim of this bill to enhance the effectiveness of Australia's tobacco control framework, which is fundamental to the Australian public health. All governments have been proactive in providing support for smoking cessation programs and services, including nicotine replacement therapy and support helplines. This multifaceted approach has been instrumental in reducing tobacco consumption.</para>
<para>I return now to the substantial gap, largely ignored, in this bill. There is rampant and growing illegal tobacco trade in our country. Labor is largely ignoring the black market. In August this year, according to a <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline> article, the Master Grocers Australia chief executive, David Inall, said illicit tobacco was a significant concern for its 2,700 members, which are mostly independent grocery and liquor stores, including the IGA chain. He was quoted as saying that for his members, 'There is no doubt it is the biggest issue that we are currently facing in terms of downward pressure on store owners nationally.' Recently, it was reported in the <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline> that the Australian Border Force had 'seized just under a billion illegal cigarettes worth $1.1 billion in forgone tax over the past two years'. In fact, the illicit tobacco taskforce has:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… confiscated more than 1.5 billion cigarettes since it was established in 2018-19. Along with tonnes of illegal loose-leaf tobacco, this has amounted to almost $1.8 billion in evaded duty, according to documents obtained by the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> under freedom of information.</para></quote>
<para>This illegal black market trade poses a serious threat to public health, government revenue and the very objectives that this public health bill seeks to achieve. While the bill focuses on imposing penalties for noncompliance with illegal tobacco regulations, it falls short when it comes to deterring and penalising those involved in the illicit tobacco trade. The penalties for engaging in this illegal activity remain largely unchanged, even in the face of the growing threat that it presents. These illegal networks operate with relative impunity. The availability of cheaper, unregulated tobacco products encourages smokers to continue their habit or entices potential new users, defeating the public health measures and their purpose, such as excise taxes and plain packaging laws.</para>
<para>With the added pressures from the rising cost of living, more people will be tempted to seek out cheap cigarettes. This illicit trade also results in significant revenue losses for the government—funds that could otherwise be directed towards essential public services. This figure, according to various sources, is now in the billions. It continues to grow and it continues to be unacceptable. The illegal tobacco trade often involves organised crime and money laundering, contributing to a broader range of criminal activities. We consider that significantly increasing penalties associated with illegal tobacco trade should be given appropriate consideration. This not only serves as a deterrent but also allows for more effective legal action against those involved in the illicit activity. We are not alone in that and I share some submissions. The Police Federation of Australia held that this bill's intent:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… will be undermined and not achieved unless the government has a concerted effort to attack the proliferation of illicit tobacco and vape products currently readily available to the public.</para></quote>
<para>Philip Morris states, in reference to the black market:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… this simply cannot be achieved if one sizeable component of the tobacco market (illicit) is being ignored and allowed to grow at an exponential rate.</para></quote>
<para>And from the Australian Medical Association:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The AMA supports in-principle strong compliance and enforcement of the Act. All governments should ensure that compliance and enforcement is adequately resourced, noting the scale and complexity of current illicit tobacco and e-cigarette markets.</para></quote>
<para>They all seem to know and recognise that there's a problem with the illegal tobacco market. The Australian Association of Convenience Stores represents some 7,000 convenience stores across the nation, and it has stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There have been over 41 illegal-tobacco-related arson attacks and two associated murders in the past year. Nearly one in four cigarettes sold in Australia are from the black market, costing taxpayers more than $4 billion a year. Despite the retail sale of nicotine vaping products being banned for over two years now, the number of adult vapers in Australia has increased by 340 per cent over the past five years to over 1.6 million adults, of which 92 per cent are buying products illegally.</para></quote>
<para>Coordinated efforts between law enforcement agencies, border control and other relevant authorities are essential to dismantle illegal tobacco networks actively. Given the global nature of the illegal tobacco trade, international collaboration with countries where these products are manufactured or trafficked is also crucial. Importantly, comprehensive data and research on the scale of the illegal tobacco trade in Australia is needed to inform policy decisions effectively.</para>
<para>Coalition and Labor governments have consistently raised tobacco excise taxes as a means of reducing the affordability of smoking, therefore creating a practical disincentive and an added reason to stop smoking. Both sides of politics have had commitments to addressing the critical public health issue of reducing smoking in the Australian community. We all want to see smoking reduced in the Australian community. It is, of course, good for the country; it's good for those smoking; and it's even good for those who aren't smoking but are affected by the cost and health impacts of smoking.</para>
<para>This bill talks about consolidating, streamlining and modernising Australia's tobacco control framework, yet it fails to confront the here and now, and that is the illegal tobacco trade that is right in front of us. It was clear in the stairwell there's a problem. It is therefore tinkering with the existing control framework. Tinkering is not good enough. It will not have the necessary significant impact on reducing smoking rates or access to tobacco products. The coalition supports the aim of this legislation, but in not dealing with the issue of the illegal tobacco trade this bill is clearly a missed opportunity by Labor—yet again—to protect Australian families and Australian children from tobacco and the illegal tobacco industry.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today's debate is an important opportunity to talk about public health and the harmful impacts that tobacco has on consumers of these products, but I'd like to talk about the environmental impact of the tobacco industry today. I will perhaps start with a question to senators here: do they know what is the most common item of litter on the planet, by individual item? I've probably given a slight clue to that—it's cigarette butts. They are the most common item of litter on the planet. Estimates suggest that up to 4.5 trillion cigarette butts are discarded into the environment every year. They are easily carried in stormwater run-off through drainage systems and eventually to local streams, rivers and waterways. Tobacco producer Philip Morris International acknowledges that it can take up to 15 years for a single cigarette butt to break down. During this process of degradation, thousands of plastic microfibres are created and released into the environment.</para>
<para>I remember when we had a groundbreaking Senate inquiry five or six years ago into marine plastics. The report was titled <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">oxic tide</inline>. We had a demonstration from a scientist, who had a glass of water filled with cigarette butts in various levels of decomposition.</para>
<para>They actually can look like little jellyfish. They have little plastic tendrils in them. People might think cigarette butts themselves don't have plastic in them, but they do. They have a lot of microplastic in them, so they're actually one of the most dangerous items of litter that we find on our beaches and in our oceans.</para>
<para>Believe me, I have done many beach clean-ups and other clean-ups in my time—too many to count, and I have picked up too many cigarette butts to count. So I would believe the current littering rates derived from these clean-ups, and, based on these rates and the average weight of a cigarette butt, it can be estimated that at least 350,000 tonnes of plastic tobacco filters end up in waterways globally each year. Personally, I think that's an underestimate. With 15 years of litter accumulating, up to 5.3 million tonnes of cigarette butts could currently be in Australia's waterways. According to WWF, up to nine billion plastic cigarette butts are discarded and washed into waterways in Australia each year. That's just in Australia. Each year, Clean Up Australia records butts as the single most reported litter item across Australia. In 2020, cigarette butts represented 16 per cent of all litter reported across the Clean Up Australia database around the country.</para>
<para>When littered into the environment, each butt can contaminate up to 40 litres of water. Significant threats that cigarettes pose to the Great Barrier Reef—as has been well noted by Tangaroa Blue and other groups that do fantastic work up there cleaning up plastic—include reduced water quality, marine debris and microplastics, to which cigarette butts are obviously a major contributor. So action on tackling environmental pollution from cigarettes will protect the health of both our people and planet.</para>
<para>The second reading amendment which I understand my excellent colleague Senator Steele-John has foreshadowed that the Greens will be moving asks the Senate and the government to support a ban on single-use plastic film and tear strips in tobacco packaging, which is another significant source of litter from the cigarette industry. It also seeks support to mandate the use of recycled and recyclable cardboard in cigarette packaging. These actions would go some way to tackling the impacts that tobacco products have on our environment, including our waterways, coastlines and oceans. If we look at an average of 25 cigarettes per pack, just under 720 million packs could be bought by Australian consumers annually. With these packs being covered in non-recyclable cardboard and plastic tear strips, they are, of course, totally unrecyclable and give the feeling of something nice and new when you open the cigarette pack. We need to have a solution to dealing with that single-use plastic. There's certainly no regulation around it at all at the moment.</para>
<para>I want to give a special shout-out to the environmental advocacy group No More Butts in the Senate today for all the great work that they do. While I'm on that page, I'd also like to give a shout-out to other groups like the Surfrider Foundation, who also coordinate fantastic beach clean-ups. So does the Sea Shepherd marine debris group. Every day and every weekend around the nation, there's a Sea Shepherd group out there doing clean-ups. I also acknowledge Take 3 for the Sea and a whole range of other fantastic groups that are doing the hard work and providing the data for us. No More Butts estimate that in Australia up to 355 million packs could be littered each and every year, with an additional 300 million ending up in landfill. Think of all that single-use plastic film and non-recyclable cardboard piling up. It truly boggles the mind.</para>
<para>So the fight to end cigarette butt pollution for good will continue, and that work is urgent. But we must take available steps when the opportunity arises, and this bill and the second reading amendment circulated by the Greens present us with an opportunity to progress action on this issue. Cigarette butts, plastic bags and single-use plastic bottles are the three most common types of rubbish found on the Great Barrier Reef. It's time to end the age of single-use plastics. We need to recycle waste in the first place, and this starts at the design phase of packaging. Designing out harmful materials like single-use plastic film and tear strips in cigarette packs, the research that's going into alternatives for cigarette butts, and ensuring cigarette cartons are recycled and recyclable are concrete actions that can be taken at the design stage to eliminate waste in the first place.</para>
<para>But of course, as with any other problematic plastic waste—and, believe me, we have a lot of it in this country—the corporations that actually create this waste then hand over the responsibility for that waste, once those products are sold, to retailers and then on to consumers. No corporation is going to fix this unless they have to.</para>
<para>That's another thing we have learnt from 20 years of failed product-stewardship schemes around packaging in this country. We see, when we look especially at single use plastic packaging, that we've had many aborted attempts, using industry-led volunteer schemes, to reduce that waste that have been a complete failure. The current Albanese government is dealing with this issue right now.</para>
<para>I do applaud the previous government for taking steps towards improving recycling in this country. But—because, of course, the Greens introduced a bill to do this, back in 2020—they wouldn't go so far as to actually mandate required standards for things like recyclable content and the elimination of problematic single-use plastics.</para>
<para>Single-use plastics aren't just problematic because we find them in our oceans, where they kill marine life and break down into trillions of pieces of microplastic—and we are finding microplastic in plankton in the Antarctic right now; it is all through our ecosystem. It's not just that that is the problem. Plastics are a problem because we're also exploring for petroleum products, which are used to make plastic. In fact, plastic is one of the biggest sinks for fossil fuels on this planet, and, as we've forecast a continued rise in plastic production and consumption, of course we're going to see continued efforts and pressures to explore for fossil fuels that we don't need. So there are many reasons we need to remove plastics.</para>
<para>Designing these products is really the key. I've been working on this for years. We had two Senate inquiries into it. The report of the second one, which was great, was called <inline font-style="italic">Never waste a crisis</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline> That actually laid the foundation for the Greens' private member's bill—and also for the government's legislation, which is the first time in nearly 15 years that we've had some reform to the waste and recycling industry. Those two inquiries did a lot of work in looking at what we need do. To make it really simple: we need to force corporations to do this. I think most Australians would agree with having government step in and manage the externality—that is, something that is having an external effect—from the production of these products.</para>
<para>Apart from climate change, there is probably no bigger pollution issue on this planet than plastics in our environment. It really comes down to government saying to businesses: 'If you use plastic in your products, it needs to stay in what we call the circular economy. Waste should be eliminated. Things that are in your products should be recyclable.' It makes sense, on so many levels, to recycle these products or reuse them or repair them and so on—the whole waste hierarchy.</para>
<para>It concerns me—may I say, while I have the opportunity today—that there is a big push on around this nation, right now, to simply burn, to incinerate, plastics. We're seeing pressure on local and state governments and the federal government to encourage the use of incinerators. While those incinerators may be slightly higher up the waste hierarchy from landfill, they're not much higher. And, of course, they produce toxic chemicals, which go into the environment. Worse than that, they encourage the consumption and production of more plastic, more waste. Incineration of these kinds of waste products is not recycling; it is surrender to the exact business model that has failed us: letting corporations get away with producing this stuff without redesigning it.</para>
<para>We need to ensure a way forward for the recovery and treatment of existing plastic pollution and put in measured steps around design, awareness, waste management and source reduction, to prevent future mass pollution from occurring in terrestrial and marine environments. We have fantastic technologies out there now, and there are people trying to clean up the Great Pacific Garbage Patch, or the plastic gyre in the Pacific Ocean, for example, and we can take a lot of this plastic out. But every day the ocean continues to get filled with plastic from new sources.</para>
<para>Plastic is considered both toxic and unnecessary. It should be phased out at an accelerated rate, with adherence globally and without interference from big business and big tobacco.</para>
<para>Here in Australia, one million tonnes of Australia's annual plastic consumption is single use. There is another reason that we want to get rid of single-use plastics. Go ask the recycling industry what that reason is, and they'll tell you: it contaminates their waste stream and makes it really difficult for them to sort and get products into recycling streams. They have a waste stream at the MRF level, where the sorting occurs. With the kerbside collection, the stuff is put in a truck and then dumped at these sorting areas. Single-use plastic contaminates their waste stream and makes it really difficult and inefficient for them to recycle products that should be recycled, because they're contaminated by these single-use plastics. So there's actually a cost reduction factor for the recycling industry here as well.</para>
<para>It is the same story for mandating the use of recycled and recyclable cardboard for the packaging of cigarettes and tobacco related products. Each year, Australia puts approximately 130,000 tonnes of plastic into the marine environment. Only we, in places like this, can do something about this. That is the conclusion that I've drawn after nearly 20 years working in this area—the last 11 years in this place and a decade prior to that cleaning beaches, working with NGOs on this issue. Governments have a critical role to play here. I know there are some people in this place who aren't big on regulation, but this issue is so pervasive and so difficult to tackle. We have the most important job: telling corporations what they can and can't produce based on the pollution and how we tackle that pollution. Just a reminder for senators: it is estimated that, by 2050, plastic in the ocean will outweigh the biomass of fish. Obviously this is not acceptable. I commend to the Senate the amendment that the Greens will move to the second reading of this legislation:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) there are environmental, as well as public health, reasons to discourage the use of tobacco products,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) cigarette butts are one of the three most common types of rubbish found in the Great Barrier Reef's marine environment, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) tobacco-related packaging products, like single-use plastic film and tear strips, pose a significant threat to the health of our oceans and waterways; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) mandate the use of recycled and recyclable cardboard for retail cigarette packaging and cartons, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) ban the use of single-use plastic film and tear strips used in cigarette and tobacco-related product packaging".</para></quote>
<para>I would love to have added cigarette butts to this. I did have a private member's bill to ban the 10 most common items of pollution that we find on our beaches. That did include cigarette butts. The EU did take some steps towards doing this but found that this is very difficult until we can find an alternative to cigarette butts. While I haven't included that in the second reading amendment, I would encourage the government to continue to put funds into research and development to assist the cooperative research centres and other avenues to make sure that we have alternative products and that corporations are forced by mandated regulations to redesign their products for end of life so they stay in a circular economy, they don't find their way into our oceans, they don't kill marine life and they don't litter our beaches.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I never thought I would agree with anything that ever came out of the Greens, but I've got to say that I agree with Senator Whish-Wilson. We're going to have to do more to protect our oceans from plastic pollution. I definitely agree with that one. Who would have thought it? Hell must have frozen over. That's what must have happened.</para>
<para>Anyway, I rise here today to speak on yet more tobacco legislation, the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 and the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023—more regulation, more red tape, more complexity, more pressure from unelected globalists. The government says that these reforms are necessary to ensure that Australia meets its obligations under the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. If the WHO asked the government to jump off a cliff, I dare say that the government would probably comply. If they didn't comply, the WHO would just amend their regulations to include a mandate on cliff jumping, and then they would comply; I'm sure of it.</para>
<para>I ask just one simple question to this government: is there an area, just one area, of a grown adult's life that you would be prepared to leave alone? Is there an act, a habit, a private comfort, that this government can allow private citizens without trying to legislate it or control it or just ban it outright?</para>
<para>This continual war on smokers is a classic example of nanny state overreach. That's what it is. Now, it's true that smoking is not good for your health. It's also true that many sensible citizens choose to smoke anyway, knowing full well the risks, and that's their right. They're grown adults. The desire by legislators to continually berate and penalise free people at every turn for making choices about their own lives is antiliberty and, ultimately, counterproductive. The government should be focused on safeguarding people's freedoms, not on monitoring them through every minute of the day lest they do, say or think something untoward. At the rate that we are going, free citizens will soon need permission from the state to get out of bed in the morning.</para>
<para>The more we tax tobacco, the more we regulate tobacco, the more we restrict the advertising of tobacco and the more we treat the community as infants, the more we create disdain for government and drive good people underground. Nowhere in the country is this more obvious than in my home state of Victoria. In Melbourne, as a result of the thriving black market, we've seen dozens of fire bombings in the past year alone. The road to black-market activity and the inevitable rise in crime is paved with good intentions.</para>
<para>The six words that Australians want to hear least from their government are 'but it's for your own good'. Daily smoking rates in Australia are among the lowest in OECD countries. As a nation we have communicated well the inherent risk in smoking and the undesirability of smoking, and as a result the number of smokers has fallen sharply over the past number of decades. According to the ABS, just one in 10 Australians smoke daily. Now, the antismoking message is clear, but in a free nation—if it's still a free nation—people must have the liberty to make their own choices without constant harassment from the government.</para>
<para>Gone are the days of 'more doctors smoke Camels than any other cigarette'. Today when you buy a packet you're bombarded with messages like, 'Smoking causes lung cancer,' 'Smoking causes mouth cancer,' 'Smoking causes blindness,' and everything else. We all know that smoking kills. We're told this whenever we purchase or consume these products. Cigarette packets must already display a statement and graphic that covers at least 75 per cent of the front; display a statement, graphic and explanatory message that covers at least 90 per cent per cent of the back; display an information message on one side; and use two sets of health warnings on rotation every 12 months.</para>
<para>This bill obviously goes even further: apparently a package insert and warnings on individual cigarettes. That's going to make all the difference! I'm sure that, once someone opens a packet, lights up a cigarette and puts it in their mouth, they're going to glance down and see 'smoking kills' written on that cigarette and immediately get the urge to quit smoking. That's what they're going to do—sure; no worries! I'm sorry to break it to you, guys: if a picture of mouth cancer or lung cancer on the front of a packet does not convince a smoker to quit, a little label on an individual cigarette will not convince them. The Australian people are not stupid. They can read. As adults—I'll keep saying it—they can make their own decisions.</para>
<para>Our nation would be far better off if the government focused attention where it's actually needed. How about this? How about we scrap the proposed IR changes and look to deregulate and loosen the pressure on small businesses and households, who are struggling to make ends meet? How about we drastically reduce the size of government and the bureaucracy which it supports? How about we scrap the unscientific ideology of net zero and unleash Australian coal and gas? Why don't you as a government remove the prohibition on nuclear energy? I'd support that. Why don't you cut all subsidies on so-called renewable energy and let the free market decide what the cheapest form of energy really is?</para>
<para>Why don't you spend less money and focus on reducing taxes, duties and levies? Why don't you implement policies designed to benefit hardworking nuclear families, like income splitting? Why don't you renegotiate bad international agreements that no longer benefit Australia and her interests? Scrap your high-taxing, overregulating agenda and get back to basics. Uphold the inalienable rights of an individual to live their life free of interference from the state.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to echo the contribution of my colleague Senator Steele-John on this second reading debate and indicate the Greens will be supporting the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023. We have seen extraordinary achievements in reducing tobacco use in Australia through concerted efforts at federal and state government levels, and those collective efforts of regulating in the public interest have saved thousands of Australian lives and extended the healthy lifespan of thousands of other Australians. But there's still more to be done. According to the Cancer Council, there are roughly two million Australians who still smoke regularly. Because of that, we can expect more than 20,000 Australians a year to die from tobacco related illness. Can we stay still when we see that? Obviously we can't. We need to step forward and regulate in the public interest. This is a global industry based around a series of large corporate players who literally profit off the deaths of millions of people across the world. It's one of the most noxious, least ethical industries on the planet, and for centuries it has traded in an addictive product, but for decades it has traded in a product that it knows kills its own customers. When you have an industry that knowingly seeks to expand its market with a product that it knows kills its own customers, of course we need to aggressively regulate that industry in the public interest. The Greens support this legislation, which is largely about consolidating, simplifying and clarifying the way in which federal legislation regulates tobacco.</para>
<para>The Public Health Association of Australia in their submission to this bill said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It is essential that the Bill be understood as one component of the many-pronged National Tobacco Strategy. The Strategy sets the vision for reducing, and ideally eliminating, the harm caused by tobacco and associated products. The elements of this Strategy, including strong regulation, workplace safety measures, cessation support, information and behaviour change campaigns, revenue measures, approaches for priority populations including Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, and the protection of policy-making from commercial interference, are all interlocking and mutually supporting. The Strategy should remain a guiding framework for policy work through the current decade.</para></quote>
<para>I think that submission, in a very neat paragraph, highlights the regulatory issues that are faced when any government seeks to move in this space. There is significant attempted commercial interference with policymaking. Companies like British American Tobacco and others have an ugly history of donating to politicians to try and prevent political pressure and to try and prevent regulation—literally buying their way out of regulation. They have an ugly history of producing pseudoscience and paying so-called experts to seek to discredit the public health findings of credible research papers that have clearly shown the link between tobacco, disease and death.</para>
<para>The tobacco industry in many ways wrote the book for how a noxious industry with billions of dollars of revenue can seek to undermine political action and can seek to discredit its opponents. We have seen many of the lessons learned by big tobacco being applied by the fossil fuel industry in its efforts to discredit the science on climate, to discredit the science on energy transition. You could almost see how big tobacco and the fossil fuel industry have come together to work out how to tear down public interest regulation and how to maintain their profits despite their industries causing global scale death and disease. You could put the tobacco and the fossil fuel industries in the same bucket in many instances. You will probably hear in contributions from the right of this chamber links to tobacco regulation and climate, and they will be playing out of the big tobacco playbook. They will try to discredit proponents for regulation. They will try to link—as we heard Senator Babet do—the science on tobacco with the science on climate change. That's what big tobacco has been doing for decades, trying to discredit the public interest science that underpins pretty much everything this bill is doing, which is regulate the use of tobacco to save people's lives.</para>
<para>I want to also acknowledge the work of my colleague Senator Whish-Wilson in identifying the environmental impacts as well as health impacts that come from this industry. The World Wildlife Fund estimates up to 8.9 billion cigarette butts are littered each year, most of them non-biodegradable. If you want to look at what the tobacco industry has traditionally put in filters, you could go back to the 1950s when the tobacco industry excelled itself on trying to come up with new ways of killing its customers by putting asbestos filters in cigarette products. Tobacco wasn't enough; nicotine wasn't not enough; they also wanted to get some cut-price asbestos into the cigarette filters. That's the tobacco industry for you. Of course, that waste stream that still continues to be created through non-bio degradable filters is found throughout our oceans, our waterways. The next round of regulation needs to be more aggressive in regulating that waste stream and standing again up to this toxic, nasty industry.</para>
<para>The Greens have always supported the critical need for a ban on donations from tobacco, alcohol and the pharmaceutical industries to political parties and candidates. This debate again shows why we need to do that. It is not enough for political parties to voluntarily give up tobacco donations. We need cessation support for politicians when it comes to tobacco donations, and the best form of cessation support would be a ban and a prohibition on any political party receiving donations from tobacco, alcohol or pharmaceutical industries, and I see your clear support for that Acting Deputy President Chandler. That of course is a missing link at a federal level. An industry based on killing people—like the tobacco industry—shouldn't be able to donate to politics because it will probably be trying to tear down public interest regulation of that industry. We should be able to unite on that.</para>
<para>The Greens support this model of careful, considered regulation of the industry. Of course, tobacco is one of the most dangerous and lethal drugs. It's right up there at the end of the spectrum of drugs that have a high chance of reducing your life, of increasing mortality and of seriously reducing quality of life.</para>
<para>It's one of the more noxious drugs. Yet we've come up with a compact, not to ban it, because we know that wouldn't work, but to seriously regulate it in the public interest. We also have regulations—probably fewer comprehensive regulations—around alcohol, another highly damaging drug that we know reduces people's life expectancy, creates a significant health burden and is, again, probably on the more dangerous end of the drug spectrum. But we acknowledge that banning alcohol would be a terrible mistake. We've seen examples in the history of the 20th century with the banning of alcohol in the United States and how that drove organised crime, an unregulated industry and an unsafe health response in the 1920s and 1930s in the United States. We've seen how banning these drugs can be dreadfully counterproductive, both on a crime level and on a public health level.</para>
<para>Meanwhile, this parliament seems perfectly content with banning much less harmful drugs, including cannabis. We can see the game plan about how useful it is to have public interest regulations for drugs. Cannabis, of course, is on the less harmful end of the spectrum. Why don't we urgently apply the lessons that we've slowly learned on alcohol and tobacco over the last decades to cannabis? Why don't we legalise cannabis, make a national, well-regulated legal market for cannabis, generate the billions and billions of dollars of public revenue that that would produce, put in place the health benefits that labelling, quality control and national regulation would provide and, at the same time, disempower organised crime and take billions of dollars away from bikie and outlaw motorcycle gangs? Why don't we just get on and do that in 2024, for cannabis? Let's just legalise cannabis, regulate it in the public interest, prohibit the big tobacco, alcohol and pharmaceutical industries from getting their teeth into the industry, and create tens of thousands of sustainable green jobs in this country in 2024? Let's pass this bill on tobacco, but let's get on to important, critical national work next year. Let's make 2024 the year we legalise cannabis as well.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 and related bill are effectively housekeeping about the tobacco control frameworks in this country that have been widely supported for a number of decades and quite successful in lowering smoking rates across Australia. I certainly recognise how terrible smoking is to your health and how it's something that should not be encouraged. We should seek to minimise the numbers of people taking it up. I do agree, though, with the sentiment of the previous speaker that there's no way that we can really prohibit it. It's just a matter of minimising the harm.</para>
<para>I would say, though, that this bill, while it is housekeeping, is incomplete housekeeping. It's the sort of housekeeping you do when you take all the mess from around your house and chuck it in a few cupboards so that the guests don't notice it but you haven't really cleaned the house. It's going to become very dirty, very quickly with all your cupboards jammed full with your junk. This bill ignores the real issues that are occurring in the real world around the use of tobacco and related products, particularly e-cigarettes. Anybody who walks down the street can see the explosion of vape shops and vaping across the country, but this bill basically does nothing about that, and the government's related measures on vaping will simply double down on failure. I'll come to those in a second.</para>
<para>The other aspect of the bill is that it does nothing, really, to tackle the illicit tobacco trade that has ballooned in recent years—absolutely ballooned. I've seen estimates that a quarter to a third of tobacco smoked in this country is coming through illegal channels, helping to fund criminal gangs, and we are ignoring that effect. I warned about this a few years ago. I opposed the increase in excise on smoking. It's now $50 a pack for people with this habit. Admittedly only a minority of Australians, 11 or 12 per cent, smoke now, but they face an enormous cost with all of the taxes that are imposed on them. It's often poorer Australians who continue to smoke. Australians in Aboriginal communities are smoking. How do they afford this?</para>
<para>What is increasingly happening, of course, is that people are buying illegal tobacco—so-called chop-chop—and that is funding criminal gangs through our country. That's because we've set the price of tobacco far too high now; it's not really acting as a deterrent anymore. Our smoking rates have, effectively, flatlined at the base of the population that just can't get off smokes. So we've forced them into this.</para>
<para>There is another way of smoking which is much better for your health and which is also cheaper, and that's to use e-cigarettes. It's much, much cheaper, and it's much, much better for your health. It doesn't have all the chemicals that are in tobacco, and that's why we've seen a ballooning of the use of e-cigarettes. Most estimates say that a lot of the approximately 1.3 million adult Australians who vape—who use e-cigarettes—were previously smokers who decided to use this product as a cleaner, healthier and cheaper way of dealing with their habit of addiction to nicotine. So the 1.3 million Australians who vape do so in an environment where, notionally, it's illegal to possess liquid nicotine. It's illegal to possess it in this country; it's illegal to carry it. You can import it, but it's very, very restricted. State and federal governments have been trying for years to prohibit, ban or suppress the use of liquid nicotine in e-cigarettes, and they have fundamentally and totally failed.</para>
<para>A few years ago when I first started looking at this issue, there were only a few hundred thousand Australians who were vaping, and that has grown by almost three times in the past few years alone. The government cannot, and will not be able to, get rid of vaping in this country. All the government is doing by continuing to prohibit vaping is funding criminal gangs, who are making an absolute fortune from this trade—something that almost every other country in the world has realised should be legalised and regulated. The government's plan formally announced last week by the Minister for Health and Ageing is to, on 1 January, ban the importation of vapes even under the previously restricted regime of needing a prescription to do so. It will completely ban the importation of vapes, and it will double-down on the state laws. He's been doing this in cooperation with state ministers. It will double-down on the laws that prohibit vaping and liquid nicotine and seek to make 1.3 million adult Australians criminals just after Christmas this year. That's the government's plan. Their plan is to, effectively, make over a million Australians criminals if they want to continue to avoid the dangerous habit of smoking. When he announced those changes at a press conference on Tuesday last week, the minister for health told the nation:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These are not measures targeting users. These are not measures that impose any penalty whatsoever on people that are using vapes. There is no penalty for people who use vapes …</para></quote>
<para>That's what the minister told Australians last week.</para>
<para>Last Friday, in Western Australia, an individual was charged in the WA Magistrates Court with possession of liquid nicotine. Under WA laws, he faces a maximum penalty of a $2,000 fine and/or two years in jail. That's the law. The minister misled the Australian people last week by saying that no-one would be prosecuted. He said: 'We're not going to go after the users.' Three days later, a 50-year-old man charged in Western Australia is facing two years jail for simply having a vape. This is ridiculous. This is absurd. This should change, and the government should realise how hopeless this particular solution is, when the rest of the world has realised that this is ridiculous. If you can legally smoke in this country—you can pretty much legally smoke marijuana now; in the ACT, you can take hard drugs with very little penalty there—why can't we allow adult Australians to decide to use liquid nicotine if they so choose but have appropriate regulations to make sure that the use is done in such a way that it doesn't encourage especially young Australians to take it up?</para>
<para>The government should see the error of its ways. The government is not to be able to prohibit it, and it has no plan to deal with the lack of alternatives for those who use vapes, come 1 January, when 1.3 million Australians will be made criminals. What is the plan that the Australian government has for these 1.3 million Australians, most of whom are addicted to nicotine? It's a terrible thing. I've not regularly smoked, and I think I have vaped once in my life. I'm not addicted, but I do feel a high degree of sympathy for those Australians who find themselves in this position. What does the government say to those 1.3 Australians who are in this position and who find themselves facing a very difficult choice this Christmas? There are only a few options available to these 1.3 million Australians. First, they can try and track down a vape at a pharmacy. Good luck with that. The government is allowing pharmacists to stock a certain level of vapes, but I heard reports that someone scoured Brisbane last week and found that most pharmacies didn't even stock vapes and that the ones who did have these hopeless vapes that no-one likes and no-one wants to buy.</para>
<para>Pharmacists don't want to sell e-cigarettes. They don't want to sell liquid nicotine. That's perfectly understandable. They're in the practice of health and providing pharmaceutical products. They don't want to do this, and they're not doing this. This market has been available to them for years now and hasn't been taken up, so it's not a viable option for the 1.3 million Australians to go to a pharmacy. And they've got to get a prescription before they go to the pharmacy. That's also difficult because a lot of doctors don't want to give prescriptions for it. It's just a dead-end road, that option.</para>
<para>The second option is that they go back to smoking. They could do that. That is legal. As I say, it will cost about $50 a day. The average Australian smoker now spends over $200 a week—I don't know how they afford it—on smokes. In comparison, vapes will cost $40 or $50. So it's almost an increase of $200 to your cost of living to go back to smoking come 1 January. The government doesn't seem to realise that Australians are struggling. Australians are being punished by the home-grown inflation they have presided over. They don't seem to understand there's a cost-of-living crisis out there right now. The Prime Minister certainly doesn't seem to understand how much pain Australians are feeling right now. All Australians, not just those in this category, are feeling that pain, including those 1.3 million Australians who are vaping. As I say, they are generally on lower incomes than those in the rest of our country. They are doing it the most tough in our country, and the government, this Christmas, is going to potentially impose and say, 'If you want to stay a law-abiding citizen, you now have to pay an extra $200 a week.' What's their answer for them? Why are they doing this to poorer people in Australia?</para>
<para>The final option—which, sadly, I'm sure a lot of Australians will take up—is that they stick with vaping but they go to the black market. They can't import them from legalised, regulated shops in New Zealand—it's mainly New Zealand shops that currently use the personal importation scheme. Vaping has been legal there for years. Jacinda Ardern, the Labour Prime Minister there, made it a big part of her agenda to legalise vaping, have a regulated market and encourage smokers to take up vaping because it's much better. Mainly it has been New Zealand shops. That is closed to them, so they'll have to buy from the Chinese triads and the bikie gangs, who are selling these products on the black market. Great job, government!</para>
<para>The Minister for Health and Aged Care, Mark Butler, is Santa Claus for the criminal gangs in this country this Christmas. Their Christmases are all coming at once because they've now got a whole bunch of new customers who will be forced into going to the black market and funding this terrible trade. This will fund the violence that then occurs. There's a lot of crime in North Queensland at the moment where I live. I hear from police that a lot of it is due to vaping. There are turf wars between bikies and triads about who gets to sell products in different locations. Businesses have been blown up and people have been killed because this black market is out of control. This will just make it worse. It will put this criminal trade on steroids. We will have a worse problem next year because of the government's decisions.</para>
<para>There is another way here. We don't need to criminalise 1.3 million Australians. We don't need to help the criminal gangs with this trade. We can do what every other developed country in the world now does and create a legal, regulated e-cigarette vaping market. I will move amendments in the committee stage of this bill to do that very thing. It's very simple. All we need to do is remove liquid nicotine from schedule 4 of the Poisons Standard. My amendments will do that. That would mean that this 50-year-old man in WA wouldn't have been charged, because the state laws refer to the national Poisons Standard. The reason this 50-year-old individual has been charged and is facing, potentially, two years in jail right now over this weekend is that the WA laws says that anything in schedule 4 of the Poisons Standard is a crime with these penalties. We in this parliament can remove liquid nicotine from the Poisons Standard. It shouldn't be classified with other hard drugs; it's ridiculous. Remove that, and my amendment's do that, and we won't charge everyday Australians with these ridiculous crimes.</para>
<para>The second part of my amendment to this bill will give the minister powers to set up a regulated market for vaping products. It will allow the minister to set rules on how vaping products are labelled, how they're packaged, the appearance of them, the descriptions of them and the flavourings of them. It will make sure we outlaw all of these ridiculous flavours that the black market Chinese gangs are selling, with candy cane and fairy floss flavours, so they're not marketed to our children. Restrict all those; change all those. Effectively, allow e-cigarettes to be sold in Australia in the same way cigarettes are: behind cabinets with plain packaging and no advertising—the bill does ban advertising already. Make sure that we regulate the market so we keep them away from our children.</para>
<para>Finally, my amendments would set up an industry funded collection scheme. The retailers who engage in the trade would have to fund a collection scheme for disposable e-cigarettes. It's becoming a big waste issue in this country because all of these disposables coming in, largely through the black market, are just tossed out. They've got some stuff in them that shouldn't go in general waste, so my amendment would introduce a collection scheme that collects and deals with that recycling issue.</para>
<para>I'll be making all of these amendments. I don't know why the government has been sitting on its heels, ignoring the evidence from around the world, letting this trade grow and infect our schoolkids and our children in a way that has got to be stopped. We can't continue allowing these criminal gangs to market this product to our children. We should take our enforcement efforts and focus on keeping them out of our schools.</para>
<para>If adult Australians want to have a vape, have an e-cigarette, it should be a free country in this regard. They can smoke and do much worse than e-cigarettes. Allow them to take out an e-cigarette at the shop. I don't encourage it, and I don't want people to do it, but, if they want to do it, they're adults.</para>
<para>Then we should go after those gangs that are supplying our children. We should go in and make sure to keep them out of our schools. That should be the effort. But what's going to happen is that the government are going to spread themselves too thin. They're not going to have the resources to take on the gangs. They're not going to beat them, just as they haven't in the last few years, and this problem is going to get worse.</para>
<para>Finally, I just want to finish on the evidence. Some people will claim that vaping has health issues or health problems that are worse or as bad as smoking. That is fundamentally wrong, and it's inconsistent with the science. Just last November a new Cochrane review came out. Cochrane reviews are effectively reviews of all the scientific reviews that have been done on issues. They are the gold standard of peer review in the scientific field. This Cochrane review stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Because they do not burn tobacco, e-cigarettes do not expose users to the same levels of chemicals that can cause diseases in people who smoke conventional cigarettes.</para></quote>
<para>E-cigarettes are not risk free, and they shouldn't be used by people who don't smoke or who aren't at risk of smoking. However, evidence shows that nicotine e-cigarettes carry only a small fraction of the risk of smoking. That is the scientific conclusion. If we are to make laws here that are based on real evidence, that are based on trying to minimise hurt and pain for people in Australia, we should listen to that science. We would join the rest of the world and have an adult conversation about creating a legal, regulated market for e-cigarettes in this country. Instead we are being led by a minister leading with slogans, who is misleading the Australian people about the effect of his crackdown and who will only benefit criminal gangs in this country, at the cost and pain of average Australians who, unfortunately, find themselves addicted to the terrible substance of nicotine.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 is designed to consolidate existing tobacco control legislation into a single act. It's designed to introduce new tobacco regulations to discourage smoking. It's designed to stop people from vaping. But basically it's designed this way to do one thing: stop 20,000 Australians from dying. That's how many people are dying from tobacco-use-related conditions every single year. Those are the stakes, so it's worth unpicking a few of the things that this bill does in order to reduce those tobacco deaths.</para>
<para>Pushing up the price of a pack of ciggies is a really good way of stopping people from getting started smoking, and that's not a bad thing. If it can stop people from developing a lifelong addiction that they regret ever developing, then that's a good thing. But price increases are a blunt tool, and they're a harmful one in their own way.</para>
<para>When you're addicted to something, you pay for it, even if you give up everything else. You don't see many heroin addicts with gym memberships, do you? When you're addicted to something, your brain is dependent on it. You will put your everyday essentials to one side in order to keep yourself functioning, and you feel like you can't function without the thing you think you need. The things you give up to feed your addiction are the things that hurt the ones around you. You hear about it with people who are addicted to pokies, who won't give up pokies but will give up socialising. They will give up shopping. They will give up everything in their life that gets in the way of what they can't live without. This is what you're dealing with.</para>
<para>If the price of a smoke goes up by so much that the only people buying them are the ones who are addicted to them, then the ones who pay the toll are the ones who feel like they've got no choice. They are who this bill tries to help. There is a link between tobacco consumption and poverty. Lower income households are particularly vulnerable to the opportunity cost of expenditure on tobacco products. Tobacco may replace food and other essential goods and services for the family. The health impact of tobacco consumption also puts pressure on family budgets and reduces the income-generating potential of family members. That's not me saying it either; that's from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet in 2015.</para>
<para>Making tobacco more expensive will definitely drive smoking down amongst poor people, to some extent, but it will have no effect on rich people, because they wouldn't notice a price increase, would they? So this is really about targeting one socioeconomic group over another. We need strategies that apply to other socioeconomic groups too. Rich people aren't price sensitive.</para>
<para>To date, we haven't really come up with much as an alternative. It's why we need to think creatively. We don't seem to be doing that. We seem to be just amping up the current restrictions and regulations, in the hope that, if we make them strong enough, they'll work even better. That's not how these things work.</para>
<para>It's true that nobody likes paying more than they need to; that's as true for ramen noodles as it is for real estate. And, if you're skint and you're struggling to keep up with the cost of smokes, it's sensible to look around for what else you can do to service your addiction. It's no surprise, then, that, as we've ramped up taxes on tobacco, we've seen a jump in the consumption of illicit tobacco. You have two products that both feed the meter of your addiction. One's cheap; one's not. Guess which one people go for. Illicit tobacco is cheap because it isn't taxed. A pack of cigarettes taxed properly could be $50 or $60. A pack of illicit cigarettes could go for nothing like that—for $15.</para>
<para>Also, every time the tobacco tax rate goes up, the profitability of the illegal black market goes up along with it, because if the price of legal cigarettes goes up by $2 because of tax, then the price of illegal cigarettes can go up by $2 as well, and they're still cheaper than the legal kind. But that extra $2 in tobacco tax isn't going to the government; it's going to organised crime. Nearly one in four cigarettes sold in Australia is from the black market, costing taxpayers more than $4 billion a year. Every time the excise goes up, poor Australians are pushed into funding organised crime.</para>
<para>It doesn't just fuel the black market, either. Stores that don't sell illicit tobacco are paying the price of doing the right thing. People who would come in and buy a basket of bread, milk and eggs are going somewhere else because that's where you buy illicit tobacco. That lost revenue is worth billions every single year.</para>
<para>You see, this is the one thing that we all seem to forget: what got you here won't necessarily get you there. We've had tremendous success in reducing the rate of smoking in Australia. It's a mistake to assume that the more you ramp up what we're doing, the further the rate will fall. You might feel a million times better going to bed at 10 pm instead of 11 pm every night, but you can't assume that you'll feel even better still by going to bed at 9 pm or 8 pm or 7 pm. Things don't work that way.</para>
<para>We should be proud of what we've done so far. We should be proud that we led the world on plain packaging. But, once you've done plain packaging, you can't make packaging more plain. Once you make tobacco too expensive for people to afford to begin smoking in the first place, then the effect of lifting tobacco taxes any further is zero. You've squeezed the juice from that fruit.</para>
<para>Every 10 per cent reduction in the rate of smoking is harder than the 10 per cent reduction before it. It takes new measures, rather than just more aggressive versions of the same measures, to break the back of tobacco deaths—and here is where I think we need to have some sympathy for the poor old smoker looking for a way to get off this train. If they're feeling the pinch from the cost of living, and the price of their addiction is going up, vaping might look like a tempting alternative. The UK's Institute of Psychiatry, Psychology & Neuroscience was recently commissioned by the British government's Department of Health and Social Care to do the most comprehensive review of the evidence around the risks of vaping that has ever been done. The lead author of the review summarised its conclusions like this: 'Smoking is uniquely deadly and will kill one in two regular sustained smokers. Two-thirds of adult smokers would really benefit from switching to vaping. They don't because they don't know that vaping is less harmful.' This is not from a tobacco lobbyist; this is from a professor of tobacco harm reduction at the King's College of London.</para>
<para>The evidence is overwhelmingly in favour of encouraging smokers to move to vaping. Getting smokers to switch to vaping would save lives—that is what the evidence suggests. The goal should be to get smokers to switch, and to get non-smokers to not take up smoking or vaping in the meantime.</para>
<para>The public conversation has been focused on the use of vaping as a gateway to smoking, and, if that's what is actually happening, it's a genuine cause for alarm. The question is: is it actually happening, and, if it is, what's causing it? Once you know what's causing it, you can start to figure out what to do about it. So first: is it happening? A major review and meta-analysis funded by the Australian government department of health found that never-smokers who used e-cigarettes had about three times the odds of smoking initiation compared with non-e-cigarette users.</para>
<para>However, we don't know if the people who go from vapes to ciggies are going to ciggies because they use vapes, or if they would have gone straight to ciggies if they didn't have vapes to go through. We just don't know, and we don't have an easy way of knowing. Even the studies that look at this question admit that, while you might be more likely to go from vaping to smoking than if you never started vaping at all, a person who starts on vapes is less likely to become a smoker than a person who starts on cigarettes. I think that's an important thing to note. The government's own evidence says this. If you start smoking cigarettes instead of vaping, you are more likely to become addicted to cigarettes. So, if we want to reduce the rate of smoking, we should be trying to encourage people to do things that divert them away from smoking.</para>
<para>The New Zealand Ministry of Health stated this year:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Despite some experimentation with vaping products amongst never smokers, vaping products are attracting very few people who have never smoked into regular vaping, including young people.</para></quote>
<para>All the measures in the world to make smoking less appealing to people are going to fail unless they also include ways to help people to quit smoking. You can make it hard, but you are dealing with an addiction. If you don't help the addiction get broken, you won't break it. I think we're being ideological in how we get people off smoking, and I think that ideological fervour is driving us to make bad decisions.</para>
<para>A 2022 Cochrane review, which is considered to be the gold standard of scientific reviews, considered 77 different studies and found high-certainty evidence that nicotine e-cigarettes are more effective than traditional gums and patches in helping people quit smoking. We shouldn't be surprised about that, though. The head of the Therapeutic Goods Administration in Australia says that smoking is worse than vaping. He said it to the Senate. He doesn't say vaping is good; he just says it's better than smoking. Cutting back the number of cigarettes you smoke is good, even if you're only going from a pack a day to half a pack. Any reduction is a good thing. So I think making it easier for people to reduce their smoking dependence is a good thing and should be supported.</para>
<para>A report published in medical journal the <inline font-style="italic">Lancet</inline>in September this year found:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Growing evidence suggests that e-cigarettes can be a catalyst for smoking cessation. Current findings indicate that this may be true even within unstructured and unguided use.</para></quote>
<para>In other words, you don't need to have a doctor supervising your use of a vape product to get a medical benefit from using it if you're using it to come off cigarettes. But our current regulations say you need a doctor's approval to do it. Doctors can't prescribe e-cigarettes unless you're trying to quit smoking. You won't be able to access a vape unless you're attempting to quit smoking. In other words, if you want to vape, you have to start with cigarettes. That's what this policy would do. It makes it so that the only way a nonsmoker can vape legally is to start smoking first. That's our public health initiative to reduce tobacco usage. 'You want vapes? No worries. All you've got to do is smoke these cigarettes.' Authorised by the Australian government, Canberra.</para>
<para>That's not all. We're also banning the consumption of nicotine-free vapes. These could contain none of the harmful chemicals. These are products that have no poisons that require regulation by the TGA. They have no active or controlled substances inside them. These could genuinely save people's lives. But we're banning them too, and the only reason we're banning them is that, if we let them be sold, we couldn't ban other vapes. So we are banning adults who can legally buy cigarettes from every petrol station in Australia from buying a nicotine-free, less hazardous alternative if they want to try and quit smoking, and we are doing this because we want to reduce smoking!</para>
<para>I support the goal of reducing our rates of smoking. It means helping people quit. I support doing that. I think we should be sensible, not ideological, about how we do it, though. Professor Nicholas Zwar, who chaired the expert advisory group that compiled the RACGP's smoking cessation guidelines, says that vaping can help people quit. I don't smoke. I'm actually reformed. I don't vape. I just think that there are a lot of people in this debate who have fixed and firm ideological views about what other people should and should not be allowed to do, and it's those views that are, ironically, sabotaging us from achieving success. There is solid and peer-reviewed research that says that e-cigarettes can be a tool to help people quit smoking and reduce the rate of unnecessary death and disease that comes from smoking.</para>
<para>If you're serious about preventing the harm from tobacco, you will be focused on doing whatever you can do to prevent it. That means making access to e-cigarettes legal and making e-cigarettes at least as available as cigarettes are. Hiding a safer alternative to cigarettes behind a doctor's prescription but allowing anybody with an ID to buy cigarettes without a prescription is going to make people buy more cigarettes.</para>
<para>Think about the benefits of a regulated legal access scheme. You could regulate what's in vapes. There'd be no more stories about supposedly nicotine-free vapes being tested and found to contain nicotine or any other hidden nasties. You could regulate the price of vapes through taxation. You could apply an excise to vapes sold in a retail environment or reduce the excise for people with a valid prescription. The excise would mean there was no cheap option to get your nicotine fix. You could raise money to support anti-smoking campaigns or fund the health system instead of funding the profits of organised crime gangs, which is what the prohibition model we are pursuing will do. You could license retailers so you know who's selling vapes and how many they're selling. This would give us real-time data on what's being sold and in what quantity. This would help researchers measure the effectiveness of antismoking campaigns and prevent retailers from selling under the counter. It would also mean that anybody found to be selling under the counter would face charges and fines. You could restrict access based on a person's age. There's no penalty in a prohibition model for selling a vape to an underage person, because you're not supposed to sell them—full stop. Young people won't ever be carded in an environment where they're trying to buy an illegal product. You could reduce the marketing appeal of them. You could regulate what products could be imported if you provided importers with a legal channel to import their products. You could insist that they conformed to the plain-packaging guidelines. We can't do that when everything that is captured is seized.</para>
<para>People worry that a regulated retail access model will send a message that e-cigarettes are safe. For the record: they are not safe; they are simply less dangerous than cigarettes. That's not just my view. The United States government Centres for Disease Control and Prevention says they are. But I don't agree with the argument that being sold means being safe. Cigarettes are legal and regulated. I do not think that anybody gets the impression that they are safe because of that. Alcohol is legal and regulated as well. You can legally buy a gun in Australia. Does that mean we're sending a pro-gun message? We can have legal products in Australia that don't make their way into the hands of kids. It doesn't follow that regulating a product makes it available for kids.</para>
<para>To stop tobacco, the Labor Party is making it harder to access alternatives to tobacco. How? With bans. Is there a single example in history of banning a drug being successful in stopping people from using that drug? Cocaine is banned. Cannabis is banned. Ecstasy, speed, ketamine and crystal meth are banned. Bans don't work. We know this. But we keep trying to impose bans because we have ministers wanting to look tough to win votes. Ironically, looking tough is easy; actually reducing deaths from smoking is hard. We can't do that by doing more of what we're doing. We should support ways to reduce unnecessary harm from tobacco. Instead, we're banning them.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank senators for their contributions to debate on the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 and the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023. The bills build on the pioneering tobacco control reforms introduced by past Labor governments, including Australia's world-leading tobacco plain-packaging reforms. That was bold policy, achieved in the face of some often savage legal and rhetorical assault. It was imaginative policy and it was world-leading policy. We know that because 26 countries since then have followed Australia's example. It's a policy that has saved lives and will continue to save lives.</para>
<para>When the Hon. Nicola Roxon introduced plain packaging, around 16 per cent of Australians smoked. Today, that rate is down to just under 11 per cent, the equivalent of one million fewer Australians smoking. But the gains of those world-leading reforms have been squandered. We were a world leader in 2011, and we are way behind today. Tobacco use remains the leading cause of preventable death and disability among Australians. It is estimated to kill more than 20,000 Australians each year. It is also the risk factor that is the greatest contributor to the health gap between First Nations people and other Australians.</para>
<para>The main bill consolidates the existing Commonwealth tobacco control framework into one act with associated regulations, streamlining the operation of the laws. It modernises and simplifies the existing provisions and introduces new measures to discourage smoking and prevent the promotion of vaping and e-cigarette products.</para>
<para>The bill reflects the Australian government's ongoing commitment to improving the health of all Australians by reducing the prevalence of tobacco use—the leading cause of preventable death and disability amongst Australians—as well as its associated health, social and environmental costs and the inequalities it causes. This commitment is consistent with Australia's obligations as a party to the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, the FCTC. The international treaty aims to protect present and future generations from the harms of tobacco use and exposure to tobacco smoke.</para>
<para>Among other things, this bill will provide: updated and improved health warnings on tobacco products to better inform consumers about the effects of tobacco use; expanded advertising prohibitions to reduce the public's exposure to the advertising and promotion of e-cigarettes and other novel and emerging products, particularly among youth and young adults; restrictions on the use of additives that enhance the attractiveness and palatability of tobacco products; better regulation of product design features that are known to make tobacco products more attractive to consumers, including crush balls and novel filters; restrictions on the use of brand and variant names that falsely imply reduced harm; the inclusion of health promotion inserts that encourage and empower people who smoke to quit; the mandatory disclosure of sales volume and pricing data in advertising, promotion and sponsorship expenditure; dissuasive measures on factory made cigarettes to help increase knowledge of the health harms of smoking and reduce the appeal of smoking; and improved coverage, enforcement and compliance for tobacco control through updated provisions and the introduction of a civil penalties regime.</para>
<para>I conclude by saying that the government is determined to do all we can to tackle the harms caused by smoking. We know that the tobacco industry continues to have deep pockets and very powerful friends. This government is up for the fight, because we fight on behalf of the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in our society, who bear the brunt of these tobacco company profits. We're going to bring the same spirit of courage, the same spirit of action, the same clarity of thought and, I hope, the same conviction that Nicola Roxon brought to plain-packaging reforms 12 years ago. We're going to reaffirm Australia's reputation as a world leader in tobacco control. I commend the bill.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Ruston be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:18]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—Please could my support of paragraph (b) of that amendment moved by Senator Ruston be noted.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. Now there are two other foreshadowed amendments. If the movers are not going to move them, I will move on. Senator David Pocock.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) commits to diminishing the political influence of the tobacco industry, in the interests of protecting Australians and the nation's tobacco control policies from industry influence, in line with Australia's obligations under the World Health Organisation Framework Convention on Tobacco Control; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on all politicians and all political parties to stop accepting political donations from the tobacco industry and revoke any passes that they have sponsored for members of the tobacco industry, and their agents, to access Parliament House".</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment as moved by Senator David Pocock be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:21] <br />(The President—Senator Lines) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>24</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br /></p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) there are environmental, as well as public health, reasons to discourage the use of tobacco products,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) cigarette butts are one of the three most common types of rubbish found in the Great Barrier Reef's marine environment, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) tobacco-related packaging products, like single-use plastic film and tear strips, pose a significant threat to the health of our oceans and waterways; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) mandate the use of recycled and recyclable cardboard for retail cigarette packaging and cartons, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) ban the use of single-use plastic film and tear strips used in cigarette and tobacco-related product packaging".</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an addendum to the explanatory memorandum relating to the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023. The addendum responds to matters raised by the Scrutiny of Bills Committee.</para>
<para>Original question, as amended, agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>23</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just before we move to Senator Canavan, who has some amendments that he wishes to move, I am keen to get some broader information. I'm just wondering: how does the government model the use of illicit tobacco?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You're wanting to see what the model is in terms of the illegal tobacco use? Is that the question? I'll try and draw this out as long as I can! The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce continues to crack down on the illicit tobacco trade with the Australian Border Force, the Australian Taxation Office, the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre and the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, as well as law enforcement agencies, working together to target, disrupt and dismantle serious and organised crime syndicates that deal in illicit tobacco. Since its establishment in July 2018, the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce has led 58 operations involving or related to domestically grown tobacco, and these have resulted in the seizure and destruction of over 380 tonnes of illicit tobacco and over seven million cigarettes, with an estimated forgone duty value of $567 million. Ten people have been convicted and sentenced to jail terms of up to three years.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was actually more seeking to understand how you measure the level of illicit tobacco that you believe to be currently sold in Australia, not the enforcement part.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce would provide the information for us to be able to work on that, but I'll just seek advice to see if there's further information for you. In my response to you, I also mentioned the Australian Taxation Office, which I am advised reports on data and provide that data on an annual basis.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm seeking to understand how you actually measure it. You're talking about places that have an interaction, and we know that Border Force has an interaction, the tax office has an interaction and the states and territories have an interaction, but I'm keen to understand—maybe I'll give you a different question. In your summing-up speech you mentioned that smoking rates in Australia are at about 11 per cent. Is that 11 per cent that purchase their tobacco legally or is that 11 per cent of people who smoke?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I made reference to the plain packaging in my summing-up statement for that particular statistic, saying that around 16 per cent of Australians smoked and that today that rate is down to just under 11 per cent. That's the reference to the 11 per cent around the smoking stats.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I get that. If we're talking about 11 per cent, for the sake of round numbers, I'm interested to understand: does that 11 per cent you're referring to refer to the smoking rate in Australia or a measured amount as it relates to the smoking of a legally purchased product?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to clarify: you've moved from your question around illegal modelling to the legal product?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You used the number of 11 per cent for the smoking rate in Australia. I'm trying to understand how you are actually measuring the number of people in Australia who are smoking. I'm keen to understand what the basis is of that 11 per cent. How has that number come about? Is it the amount of people? Does it include the illicit or illegal sale of tobacco or is it merely the legal sale of tobacco?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The information comes from the Australian Bureau of Statistics' data, where they ask in the census the question around tobacco smoking.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I accept that you say it's a question in the sense of 'Do you smoke?' and that 11 per cent of people said, yes, they did; that's pretty much what I think we've just said. How do we know, of that 11 per cent of people who apparently smoke in Australia, how many of them are accessing their tobacco or cigarettes via a legally accessible, regulated means, and what percentage of that 11 per cent are accessing their tobacco or cigarettes via the black market?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One of the areas I want to be really clear on here is that we feel that all tobacco products are harmful; I said it here in my summing up speech but I've also said it on numerous occasions in terms of the concerns around public health. We know the high rates of cancer is one of the leading causes of health issues for Australians. We also know that, of the different types of cancer one can have, lung cancer is the leading cancer for Australians. I would say that we would want to see every Australian aware of the impact of tobacco products on their health and the public health of others.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not disputing what you're saying. I'm trying to understand what the government's understanding is of the percentage of tobacco use in Australia that is legal and the percentage of tobacco that is being accessed through illicit or black market channels. With a great amount of respect, I don't think there's any difference between the harm that's caused by a packet of cigarettes that has been bought in a legally regulated shop and a packet of cigarettes that's been bought illegally under the counter. I'm not seeking to debate the merits of smoking or not. I'm seeking to understand how many people in Australia are accessing their tobacco or cigarettes via black market channels.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will refer you to the Senate inquiry, where Professor Coral Gartner, an international expert on tobacco controlled policy and the world's leading expert on e-cigarettes, said that there is no evidence to suggest that such measures would increase illicit tobacco. I see where you're going. She also pointed out that similar arguments were raised when plain packaging reforms were first proposed. That would have been 12 years ago when the then minister, Nicola Roxon, brought it in. We saw this same argument on illegal tobacco and the illegal black market brought in to bring about a fear campaign when the complete focus of this bill is on plain packaging. It is also about the care and concern for the health of Australians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm seeking to understand: does the government know the rate of sale of illegal cigarettes? Eleven per cent of people indicated through the census that they smoke. I'm trying to understand what percentage of those people are accessing their products through legal means and what percentage are accessing them through black market channels.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I provided the answer before about the Australian Taxation Office. I can point out what's in the ATO data in regard to your question. The net gap is the estimated amount of illicit tobacco that was not detected and made it into the illicit market. The net gap for 2021-22 was estimated to be 1,466 tonnes or $2.34 billion—13 per cent. That was an increase from 2020-21, when it was estimated to be 1,241 tonnes or $1.90 billion—10.4 per cent.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So you're saying 1,466 tonnes of tobacco the ATO believes made it into Australia in 2021-22 and onto the black market and was sold via the black market? Is that correct?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCarthy</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For 2021-22, it was estimated to be 1,466 tonnes or $2.34 billion—13.1 per cent. Is that what you asked me?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm trying to understand what you mean by the concept of net gap?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The net gap tax. You asked me a question as to where we came up with our statistics and our models. In my response, I said to you that the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce is a part of that in terms of where we get our information and its crackdown on the illicit tobacco trade with the Australian Border Force, the Australian Taxation Office, the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre and the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, as well as law enforcement agencies working together. That piece of information I've given you in relation to the Australian Taxation Office is just a small excerpt, but there are obviously other issues there that you may wish to have a look at.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, does the government know how many people in Australia are accessing their tobacco via the black market?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have said that. I've explained to you, from this information from the Australian tax office, that the net gap for 2021-22 was estimated to be 1,466 tonnes. I'm not sure how much more I can elaborate on that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How many people does that relate to? You've said 11 per cent of Australians have responded to say that they are smoking. First of all, what does 11 per cent equate to in numbers, and how many of those people are accessing their tobacco or cigarettes via the black market? Do you know the breakdown between the number of people who are accessing tobacco legally and illegally? Do you know the breakdown of the numbers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will just get some further advice on that, to get the figures for you, but it will be in relation to what I've mentioned in terms of the Australian Taxation Office.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You say this data as to the gap of 1,466 tonnes comes from the Australian Taxation Office. Last time I checked, most organised crime gangs don't put BAS statements in. Where is the source of that information for the ATO?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator, for your question. I probably would put a question in return and say, 'How many criminals would you know, to know that they wouldn't put in their BAS?' But, anyway, I will answer the question.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the minister might like to withdraw that comment.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It wasn't really an adverse inference; it was a query of the question, but I'll leave it to the minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In the interest of moving the committee stage forward, Chair, I will seek to address the remainder of that question from the senator.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're not withdrawing?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Didn't I say, in the interest of moving forward?</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I will withdraw, in the interest of moving forward. In terms of the other agencies that I mentioned in my previous answers to Senator Ruston about the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce, we know that the Australian Border Force does provide significant information to both the ATO and the ABS, largely because they are all on the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce. We would certainly direct you there in terms of your question on how they would ascertain information on the illegal trade.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In estimates this year, Australian Border Force were asked about their detection of both illegal tobacco and illegal vapes at the border. They compared it to illegal drugs, where they said approximately 20 per cent to 25 per cent are detected. Do you have the numbers for search and seizure of illegal tobacco at the border for the last few years?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take that question on notice, Senator.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If we're just going on a taxation take and an estimate of these numbers, where shops, retailers and the like are seeing up to a 50 per cent decline in sales of tobacco and we're not seeing a corresponding fall in smoking, is it fair to say that these policies have led to an increased market share for illegal crime across Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think your suggestion in that question is that we would see an increase in illegal trade. Is that pretty much where you're going? I have to refer again to some of the commentary. I do understand where you're going with your argument, but I have to remind the Senate that this is a bill about plain packaging, and it's a bill about reducing smoking and the harm that smoking creates. I know that you don't want to go there, but I think it's really important to remind the Senate what this particular piece of legislation is about in streamlining the concerns that we have around the amount of smoking that takes place through the forms of packaging that are out there.</para>
<para>I want to go to your previous question as well, Senator Cadell, in terms of illicit tobacco. You did ask a question, and I said I'd take it on notice and I've just been provided with an answer. The 58 operations of the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce have resulted in the seizure and destruction of over 380 tonnes of illicit tobacco and over seven million cigarettes, with an estimated value of $567 million.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For clarity, was that in the last year or is that over another period of time, and was that 380 tonnes of unrolled tobacco as well as seven million cigarettes, or 380 tonnes made into seven million cigarettes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll answer the first part of that question for the time being. You've checked on when. The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce was established in July 2018, so these are figures since July 2018. What was the second part of your question again?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Was the 380 tonnes separate, loose tobacco, or was it included in the seven million cigarettes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just reading through some of the stats here to assist with your question. Over the last financial year, the Australian Border Force made over 120,000 detections of illicit tobacco and seized over 1.77 billion cigarettes and over 867 tonnes of loose-leaf tobacco. That's correct according to my notes here—over the last financial year.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you made the comment in response to Senator Cadell that the purpose of this bill was largely to reduce smoking rates in Australia. Is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I certainly have made the comments both in my summing up and to you and Senator Cadell that this is about plain packaging and reducing the harm that is created through smoking across Australia. It is incredibly significant that we can pass this legislation to streamline the changes we need, in terms of packaging, to reduce the amount of smoking in our country because we are very concerned, especially from all the evidence that was provided to the Senate committee by public health groups—in particular, the Australian Cancer Council—about the high rates of cancer in Australia.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, just to be really clear, the purpose of this bill is to reduce smoking rates in Australia for the purposes that you've just outlined. Is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, I have responded by saying this is a plain-packaging legislation. We are looking at the packaging of cigarettes and other forms in terms of e-cigarettes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm going to assume that what you've just said to the chamber is that the purpose of this bill is to reduce smoking rates in Australia. It's all the way through your explanatory memorandum, so I'm just assuming that I'm right in saying it's reducing smoking rates in Australia. I'm interested to understand how you intend to measure the success of this bill if you are unable to give me any indication at all as to the breakdown between legally accessed tobacco and tobacco that's accessed by illegal or black-market channels. How are you going to measure this?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, we know that you're here to give the lines for those who wish to see no changes to the tobacco industry.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, you need to withdraw that. That's an inappropriate reflection on the motivations of Senator Ruston, so I would ask you to withdraw that.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Chair, I withdraw, in the interest of moving the committee forward.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Chair, I am really clear, I think, in my questioning to the minister so far, but what we've seen this morning is the minister completely and utterly ducking and weaving and refusing to answer the question. I, like everybody that's sitting on this side of the chamber, want to see smoking rates in Australia reduced, particularly amongst younger Australians but for all Australians, because we understand the massive health implications of people who smoke and the significantly higher risk that they have to get conditions and illnesses that are directly related to cigarette smoking. So I want to just put it on the record that, no matter what minister might be saying, there is not a person on this side of the chamber that does not want to see smoking rates and the associated health damage that is associated with smoking reduced. I am merely asking the government to undertake, to make a commitment or to provide some evidence about how they're going to measure the changes, because we know that there is no enforcement built into this piece of legislation. It has no enforcement in it at all. So, in the absence of actually dealing with enforcement, all of the issues that were outlined by Senator Canavan in his contribution in the second reading are not being addressed. We're not addressing the issues around the lack of excise and revenue that's being generated for the Taxation Office. We're not addressing the black market and the organised crime that sits behind that black market, which has much more sinister outcomes because of the massive amounts of money that are being earned through the illegal trade by the crime gangs that are currently running it, and we're seeing massive amounts of disruption in our communities where crime gangs are having wars about who's getting to sell the most illicit tobacco. What I merely want to ask is: is the legislation that is before us designed to reduce the amount of tobacco consumption? That's what the minister for health has said. In order for us to understand the implications of this, we need to be able to measure it. The first basis and benchmark and baseline that we need to understand if we are to measure the success of the changes that have been proposed by this is what the black market is at the moment.</para>
<para>If we have 11 per cent of Australians currently smoking, how many of those people are accessing their tobacco or their cigarettes via the normal regulated channels that are completely legal in Australia and how many of them are accessing it by the black market? Merely coming in here and saying that we have seen a reduction in the amount of legal smoking does not necessarily translate into a reduction in smoking. If all we are doing because of the lack of enforcement that is built into this is forcing people who currently are purchasing their cigarettes by the legal, regulated market into an illegal, crime-gang run, illicit market then we haven't actually achieved anything.</para>
<para>I'm just keen to understand what the government's baseline is in terms of how it intends to measure the success of this particular piece of legislation. So, Minister, I will ask you once again: how are you going to measure the success of this piece of legislation when you quite clearly have no idea—and your officials are providing you with no evidence or advice as to what it is—about the size of the existing black market in Australia? Do you have a measure to determine whether that black market is going to increase or decrease as a result of this bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refute and reject everything you have just said. The officials on this side of the Senate would certainly know their information, and they would certainly know a lot more than what you were implying. I want to put on the record here and again reiterate to the Senate that addressing the illegal tobacco trade is an integral part of any comprehensive tobacco control strategy. The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce is part of that, and all of those agencies, including the Australian Border Force, the Australian Taxation Office, the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre and the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions, as well as law enforcement agencies, are working together to target, disrupt and dismantle serious and organised crime syndicates that deal in illicit tobacco.</para>
<para>The best way for anyone to improve their lives would be to just stop smoking altogether, whether it is legal or illegal smoking, Senator Ruston. So I'm not too sure why you want to keep pushing this line that illegal trade is going to cause the sky to cave in for this piece of legislation after what we heard through the evidence to the Senate committee. Let me read through what the public health advocates and experts said. Yes, they recognise the problem of illicit tobacco in the Australian community, but many refuted the claims by tobacco companies and retailers that proposed measures will drive consumers to the illicit tobacco market. For example, the Public Health Association of Australia explained that, when implemented in other countries, measures such as those proposed by this bill have not been shown to drive consumers to illicit products. Professor Coral Gartner, an international expert in tobacco control policy, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Not progressing regulations that will improve public health through regulating tobacco products is not an effective way to reduce the illicit tobacco market … We had these arguments raised when plain packaging was being discussed, that it would lead to an increase in illicit trade, and there is strong evidence that that didn't happen.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could you just repeat your last statement?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer you to page 55 of the Senate report.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will get that out in a second because it seems to me that you just put on the record exactly my argument. The point I'm actually trying to make here is this. I'm not trying to say that this bill is going to do something or is not going to do something. I'm simply trying to understand how you are intending to measure whether it is or it isn't. I'm not coming in here and saying that this bill is going to increase the black market. What I'm seeking to understand is what the size of the black market is and how you are going to measure whether the bill does or doesn't push people onto the black market. Everything you have said is fine, but it is completely missing the point of the questioning I am trying to put to you. What is the size of the black market in Australia today?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I beg to disagree with the senator. I have responded to many forms of that question already and have referred the senator to the Australian Taxation Office in terms of that modelling. I also believe we have answered her questions regarding the modelling.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is it the minister's view or the government's view that one in four cigarettes sold in Australia is illegally purchased?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm advised that that is not the case.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If that's not the case, what is the case?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer to my previous answer in relation to the net tax gap. The net gap for 2021-22 was estimated to be 1,466 tonnes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I raised some issues in my second reading speech, particularly around the Minister for Health and Ageing's comments in recent weeks. Last week the minister gave a press conference and claimed that no users of e-cigarettes would be prosecuted in Australia. For the record, I repeat the direct quote of what the minister said at that press conference last Tuesday:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These are not measures targeting users. These are not measures that impose any penalty whatsoever on people that are using vapes. There is no penalty for people who use vapes.</para></quote>
<para>Minister—through you, Chair—in my contribution to the second reading debate I raised the case of a 49-year-old gentleman in Western Australia who was charged in the WA Magistrates Court last Friday with the possession of a vape containing liquid nicotine. If the minister is claiming that no users will be penalised, how is it possible that just days after his statement an Australian was charged for that very crime in Western Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for your contribution today, Senator Canavan. We know that these offences are being prosecuted under state law, and the Commonwealth does not interfere in or comment on prosecutions undertaken by the states under state law.</para>
<para>The Australian government is not going to blame those users. The Australian government is not about to attribute blame to people who use these products and have become addicted. This has been a vast act of subterfuge by the tobacco industry, which promoted the development and the marketing of these products for one clear purpose—to recruit a new generation of nicotine addicts.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm a bit perplexed by that contribution. I might come back to it later. I'm not aware of any big tobacco companies, so to speak, selling vapes in Australia or marketing them. It's illegal for them to do so. If the minister has any evidence to back up that comment, I'd be interested in it. I don't think she does because that's not a thing.</para>
<para>It would seem from Minister McCarthy's contribution that the minister for health in this government, Mark Butler, misled the Australian people last week. The minister just said that this government takes no responsibility for the actions of state governments, but the minister for health clearly promised the users of vapes last Tuesday that they would not be prosecuted. Users of vapes heard from the federal minister that they would not be prosecuted. Today the minister is turning around and saying, 'Actually, what the minister for health said last Tuesday was completely bunkum.' The minister for health misled the Australian people and he misled the 1.3 million Australians who now vape, because the minister here is now saying, 'We don't take any responsibility for state actions.'</para>
<para>Now, keep in mind that what the minister's doing here on e-cigarettes is being done in cooperation with state governments. I think what the minister said is not really misleading, but it's incomplete. The government is coordinating with state governments on these matters, and they've made a song and dance of doing so—of banning the importation of vapes and having a perceived crackdown at the state level. I'm yet to see a lot of evidence of it; I still see a lot of vapes in my community. But they are working in cahoots here, no doubt, with the state government. Can I confirm, then, that the minister cannot promise that the 1.3 million adult Australians who use vaping products won't be prosecuted by state governments for simply the possession or use of liquid nicotine?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do take some concern with your comments in relation to Minister Mark Butler and his determination to protect the youth of Australia in regard to these areas around tobacco and the concerns we have with e-nicotine. I take concern with that because I know the minister is working very diligently with his department and with states and territories, because we know the impact this is having on our youth across the country, particularly in our schools and classrooms.</para>
<para>You heard the minister on Friday. He is going to work with states and territories. I understand that that legislation will be introduced in 2024 to prevent the domestic manufacture, advertisement, supply and commercial possession of non-therapeutic and disposable single-use vapes to ensure comprehensive controls on vapes across all levels of the supply chain. This legislation will not criminalise personal possession or use. It will be about working with state and territory governments. We recognise there are a range of state and territory laws that regulate vape supply and use that will continue unless the states and territories repeal them.</para>
<para>So, could I just point out to the Senate that a terrific amount of work is going into this. I do get the coalition's concerns, from Senator Canavan and also Senator Ruston, around the illicit tobacco side of things. But I reiterate to the Senate that this is a critical time to send a very strong message across the country that we want to see a reduction in this space. We want to see the improved health of people. And yes, we want to do that through what we see in this particular legislation with plain packaging.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For the record, it's very important to note that the minister did not answer my question. The minister did not promise that 1.3 million adult Australians would not be prosecuted for simply possessing or using liquid nicotine. She did not make that promise. The minister for health made that promise last Tuesday, but this minister has refused the opportunity today to repeat that promise. So, you can only conclude that, consistent with my contribution, the government intends to criminalise 1.3 million adult Australians after Christmas this year for simply using or having a vape—liquid nicotine. It is unbelievable. This is 1.3 million adult Australians. About 10 per cent of adult Australians in this country use liquid nicotine or use vapes. They are going to be made criminals under the plans of this government. And this idea that it's somehow the states' fault is absolutely absurd, given what we're facing here. Part of this bill is about e-cigarettes. Section 42 is all about prohibiting e-cigarette advertisements. The objects of the bill talk about e-cigarettes.</para>
<para>The government has its hands dirty here. It is responsible as well for what is going on here in this country, where a 49-year-old man in Western Australia is facing up to two years jail simply for having liquid nicotine in a vape. That's the current state of play. And the government is sitting back and doing nothing about it—in fact, misleading the Australian people, saying people would not be prosecuted, and they're now admitting: 'Oh, no, we can't do anything about it. The minister shouldn't have said that last week.' Well, that is very small comfort for those Australians who are now worrying, in the lead-up to Christmas, what they're going to do.</para>
<para>They're addicted to nicotine, they're using vapes instead of smokes, which are better for their health, and now the government is calling into question whether they'll be made criminals or not in a month's time. It looks like they will be.</para>
<para>I met with this gentleman's lawyer this morning. He mentioned a 49-year-old man was charged in the WA Magistrates Court on Friday last week. He's pleading not guilty because, in his view, he has done nothing wrong. The minister said he wouldn't be charged. He doesn't believe he should be charged under these laws. I know that the minister is trying to deflect everything to the states, but the relevant WA state law refers back to the poison standard, which is a national regulation. So there's another link here to the federal government: a federal minister saying they wouldn't be prosecuted and a few days later an Australian being prosecuted. He's pleading not guilty. I met with the man's lawyer, and the man's lawyer told me that a few weeks ago he wrote to the federal minister, referring to comments from the minister before last Tuesday's conference—apparently, the minister had made similar comments previously—asking for clarification about why his client is being charged when the minister had said users would not be prosecuted. My understanding from the gentleman's lawyer is that the minister has failed to respond to that correspondence. Have the minister and the minister's office received that correspondence? If so, had they received it before the minister's press conference last Tuesday?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've just been advised that we have received that information. I'm unsure about the second part of your question at this point.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that. I would imagine it was received, given it was sent a number of weeks ago, apparently. It probably was received before then, so it calls into question once again why the minister was making misleading statements. The minister's office, at least, would have known—should have known—that this gentleman faced these charges, yet they allowed—or the minister did and wasn't corrected by his office—to have put an illusion out there to the Australian people that somehow they would be prosecuted when he should have known at the time he made these comments that, in fact, there was a gentleman prosecuted for that very thing in Western Australia. This is a shocking indictment here on the government's approach. They are trying use every trick in the political book to ignore the fact that their plans are going to criminalise 1.3 million adult Australians, and they have no plan for what these people do.</para>
<para>I may come back to some of this gentleman's case if there is time, but I also want to move on slightly. One of the issues for this gentleman and the other 1.3 million Australians who currently vape is that their only legal alternative to continue vaping is to go to a pharmacy after 1 January, when the government bans the personal importation scheme. I'll put on the record that I'm not a vaper, I don't vape, I don't encourage people to vape and I don't think it's a good thing to do, but I'm not in the business of telling people how to run their lives. What I hear back from vapers is that very few pharmacists stock vaping products because they don't want to be in the business of selling this product. That's their choice. Even those who do have a very limited range, and they're often not fit for purpose for people and, therefore, have limited use. Can I ask the government, what percentage of pharmacists today do stock e-cigarettes under the legal arrangements, and what's the annual revenue from e-cigarettes in Australian pharmacies?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take that question on notice and provide a response back to you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>STEELE-JOHN () (): I want to place on the record, first of all, the Australian Greens' position in relation to Senator Canavan's amendment. I'll make a couple of observations about the amendment. First of all, what Senator Canavan has brought is a rather substantive amendment to the legislation, and in the narrow time afforded to us we haven't had the opportunity to go through all of it and its potential ramifications. I observe two things about the amendment brought by the Senator.</para>
<para>First of all, it would see nicotine removed from the Poisons List, and this is not something that the Greens support. We do not support removing nicotine from the Poisons List. The references in the amendment to an e-cigarette take-back scheme could conceptually be something the Greens would be supportive of. However, in the broad this amendment is of the kind that should be considered in relation to the government's bill in relation to vaping more broadly, which, as indicated, the government will bring to the Senate next year. There is consultation underway on what e-cigarette legislation would look like, and we want to wait for that process to conclude, rather than rushing to the amendment from Senator Canavan. We also note that the National Party is a recipient of donations from the tobacco industry, so we take that into account whenever the Nationals come in here with an idea in relation to a tobacco bill.</para>
<para>I would also say in relation to this legislation, in general terms, that it does give us an opportunity to consider powerful case studies in relation to legislation and how it is actually created in Australia. As has been quoted by many during the course of this debate, smoking and tobacco use are a public health crisis in Australia and have been for decades. We know from the Cancer Council that about two million Australians smoke regularly still—to this very day—and that it has a material flow-on impact on people's health. People die because of smoking. Thousands of people die every single year. Thousands more contract terrible health conditions which worsen the quality of their life. What is lost when a human being is taken from family and community due to cancer—and I've heard about terrible conditions in relation to smoking—is that you lose not only that person and their life, all that they hoped still to do, but also all that they meant to everyone around them. There is a massive community impact from that absence. So too with the ill health that comes as a result of smoking, even if you do quit and survive. People think that lung transplants, for instance, are reasonably easy things to journey through; they're not. And they're not actually the first thing people go through. The removal of part of a lung, for instance, is a lot more common and has significant flow-through health impacts.</para>
<para>In response to this reality, this chamber, over the last decades, has legislated to bring down the rate of smoking. Guided by scientists, experts and public health officials, and by community organisations and advocates, we have worked together to produce world-leading legislation which the Greens have supported—plain packaging, for instance. We have seen that that evidence based policy has driven outcomes. It has saved lives, and it is to be celebrated for that reality. Along the way, we set up better funded commissions and appointed public health workers to work with affected communities to improve health outcomes. Where needed, we have rightly celebrated the innovation that has come in the medical space to improve health outcomes for smokers. It has prolonged people's lives and supported them to live healthily and smoke free, and that is a wonderful thing.</para>
<para>I would contrast that outcome with the legislative approach, the response of the major parties, to other public health crises in our community. Take, for instance, climate change, which is a public health crisis. The public health flow-through impacts of climate change are profound. My community in WA know this better than most. We have just come through an unprecedented November when we sweltered through an entire week of temperatures above 35 degrees. That combined with roaring winds to create devastating bushfires, particularly in our north-eastern suburbs.</para>
<para>What was the impact of that? People's homes were destroyed. As part of that destruction, communities were terribly impacted. People obviously suffered terrible smoke inhalation and profound distress, but the reality for them now is that they don't have a home. They don't have anywhere to go back to and their memories are gone. The places where they spent decades building their lives are gone. Those precious places were literally razed to the ground.</para>
<para>We know that climate change is the driver of these events. That is not in dispute. There are very many wonderful public health advocates, scientists, advocates and activists who have literally dedicated their lives to presenting to this legislature the way forward to deal with this issue, to bring carbon emissions down, to increase the amount of renewable energy in the system and to make our air and our water cleaner, with all of the positive health impacts that that has. They have laid out plan after plan after plan to do that in a responsible, managed way so that we can protect our community and our environment and mirror the excellent work that has been done by governments and policymakers in relation to issues such as smoking. Yet, what has the response of this legislature and this government been in that case? The response has been to continue to make the problem worse, to continue to approve new gas projects and to continue to approve new coalmines. The Minister for the Environment and Water right now is quite a fan of doing both of those things.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, I ask you to come back to the bill please.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am coming back to it.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: It's very tenuous, Senator Steele-John.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a fascinating case study. What is the link between these two things, as you rightly bring me back to, Temporary Chair? In the case of tobacco, the Labor Party do not take donations from the tobacco industry. In the case of climate change, they take millions of dollars from the fossil fuel industry. My state of WA and its Labor government are basically run by Woodside. The Northern Territory, it has just been revealed today, did indeed consult—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Senator Steele-John, you have strayed very far from the current bill and committee stage. I bring you back please.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm very confident of the linkage. We've seen today that the Northern Territory government consulted one group and one group alone in relation to their emissions reduction policy—the gas industry.</para>
<para>As we consider the passage of this legislation it is so critical for the community to observe the link between the money that is donated and the outcomes that we get. In this case of tobacco and smoking reduction policy in Australia we have got good outcomes. One of the reasons why is that not a single dollar is allowed to flow into the back pockets of the ALP anymore. That is a good thing. When we look to the other side of the chamber to the Nationals we see an organisation still happy to take money from these merchants of death—these individuals and corporations, as observed by Senator Shoebridge, to be one of the only entities still in operation that actively kill their customers as they take their money.</para>
<para>Senator Canavan and others in the Nationals wonder why we are a bit suspicious of an amendment offered by your party to a tobacco control bill. So, no, we will not be supporting your amendment. We will be supporting the legislation offered by the government. We will continue to work for a day when fossil fuel donations are no longer allowed to shape policy. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was hoping for a right of reply, but I'm happy to defer to Senator Marielle Smith.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Canavan, for your generosity. I did have some questions for the minister relating to the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control. Minister, I chaired the Senate inquiry into these bills. We had issues throughout the inquiry with the adherence to some of the articles within this convention by witnesses to our committee. I was hoping you could just step us through the obligations under that framework, when we signed up to that framework, and if you could speak to whether it applies to parliamentarians who are captured by that framework.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I thank Senator Smith, not just for the question but obviously for her role in chairing this very important inquiry, as we come together today to debate the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill. Every person in the parliament was told about their obligations as an official regarding any engagement with big tobacco and were told not to engage yet we do know that there are members and senators who do still engage, and we are very mindful of that. We have raised that throughout not only this discussion for this legislation but more broadly, even in the work that was done by JSCEM looking at what actually happens when big business does reach out to not only prospective members of parliament but also current members of parliament. We are mindful of that, and I do appreciate the question.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can you just step back to the history of when we signed up to this framework? I appreciate you said MPs had been informed of their responsibility under it but is there anything you could share in the time line of when the Australian government signed up to the framework and when MPs were informed, how they were informed? Is there anything you can share with us on those obligations? Can you also confirm that they apply not just to MPs interacting with the tobacco industry but also to people within our community or participants who might be participating in the democratic process, including through things like being witnesses on Senate committees, providing evidence to Senate committees, people who might be making other forms of submission that find their way into the public domain or indeed into the domain of the work of the Senate. My understanding is that those conventions don't just apply to members of parliament but also to those who we interact with in the course of our work as parliamentarians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian government takes Australia's obligations under the World Health Organization Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, the FCTC, very seriously. As a party to the WHO FCTC, Australia is obliged to protect its public health policies with respect to tobacco control from commercial and other vested interests in the tobacco industry. I refer to article 5.3 of FCTC.</para>
<para>The Department of Health and Aged Care has published guidance for public officials on interacting with the tobacco industry to assist public officials in understanding their obligations under article 5.3. The guide outlines the obligations placed on public agencies and officials by the WHO FCTC and provides a best practice framework for the implementation of Australia's commitment under article 5.3 to protect public health policy from commercial and other vested interests of the tobacco and e-cigarette industry. The guide is intended to apply to any official, representative or employee of a Commonwealth government agency, body or entity, or anyone acting on behalf of any branch or level of government. It also includes members of parliament and their staff, limiting interactions between government officials and the tobacco and vaping industries. It ensures transparency of significant interactions that do occur as one of a number of considerations giving effect to these obligations.</para>
<para>The guide also notes that partnerships with the tobacco industry are inappropriate, including accepting offers from the tobacco industry or agents of the tobacco industry to assist with the development of tobacco control legislation or policy or to participate in industry sponsored tobacco control measures. Every member is aware of this, and every member has been written to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As it is 1.30 pm, the committee will report to the Senate.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>33</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KOVACIC</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This time of the year is supposed to be a happy time where families come together to celebrate Christmas and the New Year. However, for many Australians, the joy of Christmas has been stripped from them as they struggle to keep their heads afloat in the Albanese Labor government's cost-of-living crisis. As Australians tuck their legs under the dining table for their Christmas dinner, they'll find the cost of a leg of Aussie lamb has gone up 17 per cent under Labor. A kilo of potatoes for the Christmas roast has had a whopping 25 per cent increase under this government. Bega Cheese, a staple for any summer barbie, is up 31 per cent. On average, Australians are now paying 4.4 per cent more when they check out at the grocery store compared to last year, off the back of a 7.8 per cent peak in December 2022. From filling up at the bowser to filling up the fridge, and now filling up the Christmas stocking, pretty much everything costs more under an Albanese Labor government.</para>
<para>All families across the country try to unite for the holidays. But they'll see that the cost of flights have surged more than 50 per cent above prepandemic levels, and that's even if the plane takes off at all. Perhaps, to ease their sorrows, they might decide to make a Christmas G&T, but, under this government, those taxes will also go up, as the tax on spirits is now set to tip over $100 per litre. Even beer has gone through the roof, with Labor's own Dr Andrew Charlton, the member for Paramatta, quoted in the <inline font-style="italic">AFR</inline> saying: 'Australians are drinking among the most expensive beer in the world.' This—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Kovacic. Senator Payman.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Islamophobia</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to put on the record the alarming rise of Islamophobia in Australia. I know that the cruel and relentless violence still unfolding in Gaza is having significant impacts on our communities here. Your pain is valid. Your fear is warranted. I'm feeling the impact too. According to the Islamophobia Register, hundreds of reports are coming in at an unprecedented rate, now 13 times the amount prior to the tragedies on October 7. Some of the reported incidents include arson attacks at mosques, death threats, videos inciting violence and intimidation in public. There are also reports of people being harassed for wearing the kufiyah, the traditional Palestinian scarf. I want to make it clear that this is unacceptable. The Muslim community is scared and anxious for our safety here in Australia. This is unacceptable. Individuals are being targeted for wearing the kufiyah or showing support to the plight of Palestinians. This is unacceptable. At a time when we need strong leadership and unity, some leaders are fanning the flames of Islamophobia and allowing Islamophobic rhetoric to go unchallenged. This is unacceptable. Australia has a proud identity for being a multicultural and multifaith nation. We need to defend that status and come together to stand against the forces that wish to separate us. We are all Australian, and that's what makes us great. We treasure the diversity of people that have shaped our nation, no matter their religion or background. I urge Australian Muslims and non-Muslims to stay vigilant against Islamophobia and all other forms of discrimination.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Domestic and Family Violence</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to, sadly, recognise that we've had a fifth woman in South Australia allegedly murdered at the hands of her husband. This is in a matter of 18 days—five women murdered, killed by their partners.</para>
<para>Enough is enough. South Australian communities are rocked by this. The South Australian people are shocked that this is going on in such alarming numbers and that, still, governments are not doing enough to act. I stand with my local community to urge the South Australian government to establish a royal commission.</para>
<para>Enough is enough. We are in a domestic violence crisis. This is an epidemic. If there was this type of epidemic of other crimes, there would be outrage. Heads would roll. Agencies would be brought in. Departments would have to act. Funding would flow. We need much more action from our leadership on a state basis and on a federal basis.</para>
<para>In this year alone, 55 women across this country have been killed by their partners, in their homes, or at the hands of men that they know. Enough is enough. We must stop this, stop it in its tracks, and help women and children in this country to be safe in their homes.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Order for the Production of Documents: Murray-Darling Basin Plan</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to talk about the issue of transparency and this government's absolute contempt for this chamber. Last Friday afternoon, one day after the Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill passed the Senate, as a courtesy I received documents from the minister's office, under an order for the production of documents, that have not yet been tabled. But it is worth reminding people of the time line of this production.</para>
<para>The first motion for the order for the production of documents was moved on 6 September, with a request for the documents by 14 September 2023 in relation to the Murray-Darling Basin Plan and the defunding of the Northern Basin Aboriginal Nations. On 14 September we were told that, due to there being over '1.8 million documents since May 2022', the government would not comply until 1 December. On 16 October the Senate again supported a motion requiring the minister to comply by 17 October. But again the government ignored that request from the Senate, and another motion was passed on 19 October requiring the minister to provide an explanation.</para>
<para>In Minister Gallagher's statement of the chamber, she claimed that there were more than 1.8 million documents and, to comply, it would take 8½ years for one person working in the department to review each document. Well, the actual documents provided were just 37 in number and covered just three of the 10 areas requested. When will this government treat this chamber with respect?</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Brain Cancer</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Brain cancer day kills more adults under 40 in Australia than any other cancer, and more children than any other disease. While we have seen many great advances in other areas of medical research and technology, sadly, the prognosis for those diagnosed with brain cancer today has not improved in the past 30 years. There is still no cure, and, tragically, fewer than one in four will survive beyond five years of being diagnosed. I do have high hopes that the cure can and will be found.</para>
<para>In the recent gathering on the lawns of Parliament House, the inaugural Head to the Hill event brought together brain tumour patients and their families and carers, and researchers and advocates. At this event I had the pleasure of meeting Zara Skepev, a truly remarkable and inspiring 14-year-old. Following in the philanthropic footsteps of her mother, Milena, who recently established the Australian Brain Cancer Foundation, aspiring researcher Zara decided that she would help out with some fundraising of her own. Together with her best friend, Mila, Zara raised an incredible $14,325 for brain cancer research by crafting and selling their unique handmade earrings. This is an incredible achievement for any 14-year-old.</para>
<para>Aware of the challenges faced by researchers in balancing motherhood and career, Zara decided to use all the funds to support brain cancer researchers in transitioning back to work following childbirth, hence the Zara Skepev Fund for Women in Brain Cancer Research was established at the Australian National University—which, I am delighted to say, has already helped scientists to continue with their important research earlier than would otherwise have been possible.</para>
<para>It's thanks to the efforts of inspirational people like Zara that we will find a cure and that lives will be saved. On behalf of every Australian who has been touched by this devastating illness: thank you, Zara.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Albanese Government</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last Thursday, on music band T-shirt day, the Prime Minister chose to wear a T-shirt from Australian band Radio Birdman, perhaps for the uncanny commentary their song titles make on the Prime Minister's term in office. Who can forget 1977's classic title 'Descent into the Maelstrom', or their commentary on the government's legislation agenda, 'Subterfuge'.</para>
<para>Radio Birdman nailed this government's failure with their song 'Time to Fall' and the follow-up, 'Found Dead'. The Prime Minister's fortunes are 1981's 'Hanging On'—and, if we see one more selfie, perhaps 1988's 'Burn My Eye'—and, from 1977, perhaps something no Australian is likely to say to the Albanese government, 'You're Gonna Miss Me'. Perhaps a better T-shirt would have been AC/DC's ode to crossbench dirty deals, 'Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap'.</para>
<para>Jim Chalmers didn't take part in band T-shirt day, and missed his chance to wear a AC/DC T-shirt that sums up his economic policy perfectly: 'Highway to Hell'. Aptly describing Jim Chalmers's cost-of-living crisis would be 'Hungry Cannibals'. It's ironic that—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, can you resume your seat, please. Senator Brown?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Carol Brown</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that the senator be reminded that he needs to address people in the other chamber by their correct title.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's ironic that the Prime Minister returns from kissing the ring of BlackRock, the largest predatory wealth fund in history, and dons a T-shirt from an anti-establishment punk rock band. We're on a highway to hell because Anthony Albanese has not grown into the prime ministership. He still acts as though selfies, band T-shirts and empty symbols are substitutes for thoughtful governance and hard work.</para>
<para>As a Senate, we stand at the Rubicon, with digital ID and misinformation bills in hand. We must decide as a Senate whether to cross into tyranny or take a principled stand in support of free speech, freedom of association and honest debate. It's an own goal that Anthony Albanese chose a band from a better time—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, resume your seat. Senator Brown?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Carol Brown</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Same point of order. Can you remind the senator to address others in the other house by their correct title.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, can you use the term 'the Prime Minister' or 'the member for Grayndler'.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>He chose a band from a better time, a happier time, when Australia was prosperous, when people had homes, cars and breadwinner jobs. Wearing a T-shirt will not bring back those days, Prime Minister, nor will you.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Digital ID Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government's already been found out in spreading misinformation about its digital ID bill. Last week the minister in this place claimed the bill had nothing to do with digital identity when in fact their own bill is called the Digital ID Bill 2023; it's in the title, so I think I might have something to do with digital ID!</para>
<para>Minister Katy Gallagher followed up on the weekend on Twitter, or X now, and said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Digital ID is not compulsory.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's a voluntary, secure & convenient way for you to access online services safely without having your personal documents stored by 3rd parties.</para></quote>
<para>She has failed again and has now been revealed to be spreading more misinformation because Community Notes, readers of X, have put a note up—and it's been accepted by X—saying, 'The minister might be wrong here, because labelling digital ID as voluntary can be misleading if it becomes an implicit requirement for essential services.' They're exactly right.</para>
<para>Whatever the government say about their bill being voluntary—do you remember when they said the vaccine would be voluntary? Some people today still claim that no-one was ever made to get a vaccine, that you didn't need to have a job, that you didn't need to go and eat out, that you could have just got the vaccine instead, that it was your choice to get the vaccine. I remember that. They all said it was voluntary. Now they're saying a digital ID is voluntary. You should be very careful about the weasel words used by politicians. Their own bill, in section 74, says you can't use a digital ID to make people access a service. Then, later, in section 74(4), it says that the minister can exempt people from that requirement if it is—wait for it—appropriate to do so.</para>
<para>Where is this all headed? You can either trust the politicians that tell you it's voluntary or you can think back about how you've been treated the last few years by those very politicians. Don't believe a word they say. Oppose this digital ID and oppose this expansion of government oversight. We're a free country, and we should remain that way.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leader of the Opposition</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We know many working families are doing it tough right now. That's why the Albanese government has invested $23 billion in relieving the cost-of-living pressures, including through our Energy Price Relief Plan, which has reduced electricity prices by around 25 percentage points compared to forecasts. That's hundreds of dollars each family in this country has saved. The Leader of the Opposition voted against it. Mr Dutton also voted against record investment in affordable housing. Then there's fee-free TAFE, which has been taken up by 300,000 people and which the opposition said was a waste of money. There's the increased minimum wage, which the opposition refused to support. There's the $40 per fortnight increase to JobSeeker, which we introduced, but Mr Dutton's opposition voted against it. Then there's the government's record investment in bulk-billing—the largest in Medicare's 40-year history. Compare that to Mr Dutton, who, as Minister for Health, froze the Medicare rebate for six years and wrecked bulk-billing rates. In fact, as health minister, Mr Dutton said there were 'too many free Medicare services'. He tried to introduce a tax on every visit of every person to a GP. Not only has Mr Dutton opposed cheaper energy bills, more affordable housing, increases to wages, increases to JobSeeker and fee-free TAFE; he is fundamentally opposed to free public health care. Delivering cost-of-living relief should be above politics in this place. It's a shame Mr Dutton refuses to care about anyone other than himself.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Change</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> () (): It's the final week in the Australian parliament in 2023, just a few weeks from Christmas, and what have we learnt? We've learnt that 2023 is going to be the warmest year on record after nearly a decade of broken weather records on land and on sea. We've seen the warmest ocean temperatures ever recorded in history around the globe. Consequently, we've seen the lowest levels of sea ice in the Antarctic. And what do we find at the end of the year with global climate talks and COP28? We find the president of COP28 making clear claims of climate denial. Why the hell would we hold climate talks in a petrostate? COP28 president Al Jaber was reported as having said that there is 'no science' indicating that a phase-out of fossil fuels is needed to restrict global warming to 1.5 degrees. He also said that a phase-out of fossil fuels would not allow sustainable development unless you want to take the world 'back into the caves'. That is clearly, patently false. There is very clear science saying we need to rapidly phase-out fossil fuels. It's not just in the United Arab Emirates; it's also here in Australia. In Australia this year, we have approved new fossil fuel projects, four new coalmines and new, massive offshore oil and gas exploration projects. Right now, we have 22 billion tonnes of carbon projects up for approval. That is 10 times our current carbon budget out to 2030 and 14 per cent of global emissions. I say to those Australians who want climate action: keep fighting. The Greens will be in here doing that with you. We won't give up. Have a break over Christmas and come back— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sure that some of you in this place think there's no way that you could ever be on Santa's naughty list. But Santa sees through your pompous, self-righteous hypocrisy, especially when it comes to energy policy. Your integrity is about as authentic as Santa himself. Many of you spend your time demonising coal, but we wouldn't have a Christmas if it weren't for coal. Indeed, we wouldn't have anything were it not for coal. If we were to stop using coal, as many in this place insist we must, our country would grind to a halt.</para>
<para>Coal powers our country. Everything from our lights to our budget surplus is thanks to the miracle of cheap and abundant coal. Many of you would seek to rob our nation of our strategic advantage that is buried just under the surface of this great land by the providence of God himself.</para>
<para>You may not deserve anything for Christmas, but I'm no Christmas Grinch—no, I'm not. Even the naughtiest of God's children deserve something for Christmas. I have gone ahead and arranged for Minister Bowen to receive a special gift delivered to his office later today, a neatly wrapped, just for him, beautifully crafted by the hand of God himself piece of coal. That's what he's getting: a piece of coal. I encourage the minister to put this in pride of place on his shelf to remind him, along with everyone else in his office, that, if it weren't for coal, there would be no Christmas—no Christmas at all. From my office to your office, Minister Bowen: Merry Christmas and a happy coal-powered new year.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Babet. I remind you that we may have children listening, so perhaps not to blow their expectations out of the water.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hasn't the Prime Minister shown his true colours? In the 16 months leading up to the Voice referendum, Anthony Albanese was able to flit around the world on his Airbus, 'Albanese Airlines', the one-passenger airline, making sure that he was loved by people in the world while doing nothing to help Australians through the cost-of-living crisis. What is interesting for those who are listening is that Labor is very sensitive about the amount of time the Australian Prime Minister spends out of Australia. It's always lovely when the Australian Prime Minister gets his passport stamped when he comes back to Australia, because the Prime Minister doesn't want to deal with the cost-of-living crisis. Rents are up, mortgages are up, power is up, gas is up—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>interjections are up from the Labor Party, because they don't like talking about the cost-of-living crisis, and they like delivering solutions to the cost-of-living crisis even less. Transport is up and beer is up. So it is correct to say that life is not easy under Albanese.</para>
<para>When the Prime Minister gets tough, he relies on pathetic political attacks on the Leader of the Opposition and on the opposition. When this government released over 145 hardened criminals, it was Peter Dutton who, with members of the shadow cabinet, worked constructively as a team to bring forward solutions to Labor's problem. But what was the response of the Labor Party and those cabinet ministers? Guess what they called Peter Dutton? They called him a 'protector of paedophiles'. This is someone who spent his career as a Queensland police officer locking up sex offenders. And Labor's response when faced between a high road and a low road is always to take the very, very low road—because you don't have solutions for the cost-of-living crisis impacting upon middle Australia.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pratt, the senator has a right to be heard in silence. Senator Tyrrell.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania: Employment</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Tasmanian government's jobs hubs are the right pathway to implementing a place based approach in a rebuilt Commonwealth employment services system. The deployment services system. The <inline font-style="italic">Rebuilding employment services</inline> report makes it clear: people's pathways should be determined by them, not profits. I get this not only as a representative of Tasmania but also as someone who has lived and breathed employment services both as a client and as an employment consultant. I have seen how the current system can lift some people up and push others down.</para>
<para>Tasmanian jobs hubs offer a different take on the typical approach to employment services. The hubs have a people and business-centric approach focused on offering free career advice and getting people job ready. The hubs, which cover almost all corners of the state, are in some of our most regional towns, many of which have a disproportionately high unemployment rate. Letting people choose their own path just makes sense.</para>
<para>As the report found, shoving people in courses that don't—and won't—work for them doesn't promote an employment system that is fair. When I was seeking help from employment services, I had to meet activity requirements by doing courses that I wouldn't get any benefit out of. I completed hospitality training to fill a kitchen hand job. But I finally did one course that stuck: a cert II in administration. I filled a government funded placement for a year, and, after I had my first child, I was asked back, earning 11 bucks an hour.</para>
<para>The report found that Tassie's hubs are for a larger pool of candidates for potential employers, which is good for local businesses. Employment services shouldn't be one-size-fits-all. That didn't work for me, and I've seen countless other people it has also failed. The jobs hub is an opportunity to change that, which is why I'm putting my support behind it—for me and for the people of Tasmania.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Supermarkets</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's time that Coles and Woolworths, the corporate supermarket giants in Australia, were called to account. Millions of Australians are struggling to put food on the table, struggling to afford the basic necessities of life, while Coles and Woolworths are raking in literally billions of dollars in profits. It's impossible to walk the aisles of a Coles or a Woolies supermarket at the moment, fill up your trolley, get to the checkout and not be appalled at the dollar value of the goods that you have gathered.</para>
<para>It is time that we had a robust inquiry into the pricing practices of the corporate supermarket giants in Australia, it is time we examined the overwhelming concentration of market power that Coles and Woolies have and it is time that we hauled in the CEOs of Coles and Woolies, who are making off like bandits while their corporations make billions of dollars in profits, and ensure that those CEOs are called to account for their pricing practices. We'll give them the chance to explain, if they can, why it is that they think it's okay to do over farmers to make billions of dollars in profits and charge food and grocery prices that are sending millions of Australians into a struggle to make ends meet. It is time that we had a good, long look at the pricing practices of the corporate supermarket giants in Australia, it is time we shone the disinfectant of sunlight on their pricing practices and it is time that they were called to account.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Society</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ANTIC</name>
    <name.id>269375</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Many public figures like politicians, sportspeople and celebrities feel the need to signal virtue to the hard left lest they be cancelled or taken to task. To me their overtures come across as insincere, as a sort of pledge of allegiance intended to appease the angry mob. JK Rowling is not one such celebrity. She's a woman who stood by her convictions in relation to women's rights and bore the brunt of the perpetually outraged leftist mob. Similarly, Elon Musk is not one such celebrity. He recently refused to bend the knee to the threats of corporate advertisers withdrawing from X, formerly Twitter, because it is now too triggering for them.</para>
<para>These principled stands have Rowling and Musk more popular, not less. More importantly, they've given people great hope that the authoritarian left can be defeated. People are sick and tired of wokeness, political correctness, leftism—whatever you want to call it. They're fed up. They want things to return to a semblance of normality. Too many people acquiesce by taking a knee or reading a welcome to country because they're afraid of losing their jobs or damaging their reputation, but when there are powerful people like JK Rowling and Elon Musk blazing the way, we regular people feel empowered.</para>
<para>The hard left has overplayed its hand for some considerable time now, and the reaction against their hubris is gaining momentum. What we need are more leaders to push back. It is not enough of those who disagree to simply smile and nod anymore. So my message to the rich, the powerful and the influential is this: stop letting the likes of JK Rowling and Elon Musk do all the heavy lifting. Your voice and leadership are needed. It's time to stop nodding and smiling while the hard left ride roughshod over us. After all, how much money do you need?</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This morning I joined with Senator Louise Pratt with Arthritis Australia and the Australian Rheumatology Association for the Parliamentary Friends of Arthritis to launch the juvenile idiopathic arthritis guide. We know that arthritis impacts so many Australians, and there is nothing sadder when you meet, as I did this morning, a beautiful young girl, 12 years of age, who has just graduated from primary school, who lives with this debilitating disease each and every day. The reality is that juvenile arthritis stays with you through your entire life.</para>
<para>There is somewhere between 6,000 and 10,000 children in Australia who have this condition. We need to ensure that there is far more awareness in schools so that those children are fully supported. The other issue confronting us is the lack of people who are qualified to diagnose these diseases, no more so than in Tasmania.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Polley. The time has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>CONDOLENCES</title>
        <page.no>38</page.no>
        <type>CONDOLENCES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Dunkley</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—It is my sad duty to inform the Senate that a short time ago the Prime Minister confirmed the death of our beloved colleague, the member for Dunkley, Peta Murphy. We offer our deepest sympathies to her loving husband, Rod, and all her family. We will all have the opportunity to say more about Peta in the days ahead, but, for now, I recognise this is the saddest of days for the Labor family. Peta was loved. She was respected by all of us and greatly admired by her community who she represented with passion and determination, even through all her illness.</para>
<para>At the end of Peta's first speech, she quoted from <inline font-style="italic">Pi</inline><inline font-style="italic">p</inline><inline font-style="italic">pi Longstocking</inline>. Pippi's friend Annika had just told her that she couldn't beat the strongman at the show because 'he's the strongest man in the world', Murphy said. 'Man, yes, said Pippi, 'but I'm the strongest girl in the world, remember that.' Peta's strength was unmatched, and she will be greatly missed by us all. We offer our deepest sympathy to Rod and all of her family.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—On behalf of the opposition, I wish to express our deepest condolences to all of Peta Murphy's family; her husband, Rod; all of her loved ones; and her Labor family and friends, who, we appreciate, will be feeling enormous grief and sorrow at this tragic news. Peta Murphy conducted herself as an exceptional member of parliament. Particularly she showed such strength, such grace and such determination during her battle with cancer. We pay tribute to her life, as I know this chamber—and all—will do so appropriately in the coming days and weeks.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>38</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Nuclear Energy</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. I refer the minister to statements by French President Emmanuel Macron that 'nuclear energy is a source that is necessary to succeed for carbon neutrality in 2050'. I also refer to statements by the United States special envoy for climate, John Kerry. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… we can't get to net zero 2050 unless we have a pot, a mixture, of energy approaches in the new energy economy. And one of those elements which is essential in all the modelling I've seen, is nuclear.</para></quote>
<para>Does the Albanese government agree with President Macron, Secretary Kerry and many other world leaders that more nuclear energy generation is an essential requirement in achieving net zero?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have to say that I am surprised to get a question from the coalition about what President Macron said, but obviously they are very keen to press the nuclear energy point. There are countries around the world which, many decades ago, made a decision to go down the nuclear path. Some of the countries that you have referenced are amongst those. Australia made a choice not to do that. Australia has made a choice to look to the comparative advantage that we have when it comes to the cheapest forms of energy, which is firmed renewables. More sunlight hits our land mass than any other country. We know that we have so many untapped resources when it comes to renewables.</para>
<para>I appreciate that the opposition are very committed to the nuclear path. I understand Mr O'Brien has said that he'd be happy to have one in his electorate. That's a matter for him. But we will focus on the form of energy which is the cheapest form of new energy, which is renewable energy, rather than what is, frankly, an ideological agenda from those opposite when it comes to nuclear power generation.</para>
<para>There are countries in the world—France and others—which many years ago chose to go down the nuclear energy path. That is not the approach Australia has been taking. We have some of the best wind and solar resources in the world. That's why we joined so many countries to support a key push for renewables and energy efficiency at the Conference of the Parties.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given Australia is home to an estimated 35 per cent of the world's known uranium reserves, is it in Australia's national interest to encourage greater global production of nuclear energy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's in Australia's and every country's national interest to press for and help deliver net zero by mid-century. There are different paths to that approach. Australia has taken the view that I have outlined, which is that we have untapped resources of renewable energy and that we know from what we have been told by regulators and by the market that the cheapest form of new installed energy is renewable.</para>
<para>I would also make the point that the opposition have been on this for many years. When I was climate minister, I think I got the same questions. People might recall that, I think, John Howard tried to get Ziggy Switkowski to tell us that it was financially viable. The reality is that we would rather put that public investment, if required, into those areas where we have a comparative advantage.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The declaration to triple nuclear energy signed at COP28 by countries including the United States, Canada, France, Finland, the Netherlands, Japan, the Republic of Korea, Sweden and the United Kingdom set the aspiration for more nuclear energy but also recognised 'the different domestic circumstances of each participant'. Why didn't the Albanese government sign the declaration?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think what I have in my brief is the pledge. If I'm wrong, I will come in and give you some further information. But I'm advised that, of the 22 nations that signed the pledge, 18 already have a nuclear energy industry. So only four, obviously—Moldova, Morocco, Poland and Mongolia—signed the pledge as countries without nuclear power. A number of countries with nuclear energy industries did not sign the pledge, and Australia joined 117 other countries to sign a pledge to triple global renewable energy capacity, which reflects the priorities that we have and the priorities of the government.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Health Care</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care, Senator Gallagher. There are now 47 Medicare urgent care clinics open across Australia. These clinics are designed to enable Australians to access urgent care in a primary care setting rather than attending a hospital emergency department. Could the minister provide the Senate with an update on recent clinic openings, how many people are using the centres across Australia and how these clinics are helping Australians to access urgent health care when they need it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bilyk for the question and acknowledge the opportunity I had to visit Family Planning Tasmania with Senator Bilyk to open the endometriosis and pelvic pain clinic this year. It was a great opportunity to again extend primary health care and take pressure off hospital departments.</para>
<para>There are now 47 Medicare urgent care clinics open and operating, including the Alice Springs Medicare urgent care clinic, which opens today. There are 47 clinics up and running, with 58 to be open by the end of the year. As senators know, the Medicare urgent care clinics are open seven days a week, with extended hours. They're open to walk-in patients who need urgent care but for not life-threatening issues either for themselves or for their children. We are seeing some excellent examples of how these clinics are meeting the needs of that patient group.</para>
<para>We had a young patient, with his mum, who went to the Ipswich clinic with a suspected broken wrist from playing basketball. He was triaged in just five minutes. He was seen shortly after by a doctor. He was X-rayed, he was treated with a splint and he was connected for a physio appointment the following week. This was all done within two hours. Another patient took her daughter to the Penrith Medicare urgent care clinic when her daughter sustained a possible ankle fracture from playing soccer. He daughter was seen, X-rayed and discharged with a CAM boot in less than one hour.</para>
<para>The patient's mum said, 'Why would anyone go to the emergency department with this sort of injury when the Medicare urgent care clinic can deal with it so quickly?'</para>
<para>So far across Australia, there have been more than 75,000 presentations to Medicare urgent care clinics. Nearly a third of these patients are under 15 years of age. A third of visits are on the weekend, and on weekdays more than one in five visits have taken place after 6 pm.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It was a pleasure to spend time with you in Hobart too, Minister. One of the aims of opening Medicare urgent care clinics is to help ease the pressure on busy emergency departments across the country. Is the minister aware of whether the Medicare urgent care clinics are having any impact on the number of presentations to hospital emergency departments?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bilyk for the supplementary. These clinics are not just providing high quality urgent care when and where people need it; they're doing so free of charge. We are seeing some very pleasing data coming in. I acknowledge that it is early days, but the idea behind the Medicare urgent care clinics was to take, in particular, categories 4 and 5, as they are known in hospital emergency departments—non-urgent or semi-urgent presentations—and to relieve some of the pressure there. It's early days, but, at Logan Hospital in Queensland, category 4 and 5 presentations have gone down by 10 per cent since the Logan Medicare Urgent Care Clinic was opened, and at Ipswich Hospital there's been a 20 per cent reduction in that type of presentation, which obviously has significant benefits for the hospital. So, while it is early days, we are pleased with the results that we are seeing both in the numbers of people using the clinics and in the impact that the clinics are having on hospital EDs.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the Medicare urgent care clinics are one way the government is acting to strengthen Medicare. How do the urgent care clinics complement other steps the government is taking to strengthen Medicare, and why is the government so determined to strengthen Medicare after a decade of cuts and neglect?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bilyk for the question. The Medicare urgent care clinics are just one part of our program to strengthen Medicare. In the budget this year, we have had the tripling of the bulk-billing incentive, really making a significant difference. Some doctors groups have called it game-changing in terms of being able to use and continue to use bulk billing for patients. But we have also been delivering cheaper medicines. Again, last week I went through some of the savings that we have seen for people—in the order of $20 million per month—from having cheaper medicines and cheaper scripts. Those things, together with our Medicare urgent care clinics, the work we're doing around workforce and the work we're doing to negotiate a new pharmacy agreement, are all about ensuring that we are strengthening Medicare and making health care accessible and affordable to Australians.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Immigration Detention</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Minister, how many detainees, including paedophiles, rapists, murderers and a contract killer, have now been released into the Australian community, and, of those, how many are there whom the government has tried or is trying to resettle in another country?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer to the statement issued by the ABF on Sunday 3 December. I understand that in that the Australian Border Force confirmed that two detainees, one in New South Wales and another in South Australia, have recently been charged, and one individual remains in police custody. I'm advised that, obviously, both those matters are subject to court proceedings, so I'm not in a position to provide further detail at this stage.</para>
<para>In relation to this cohort, as the shadow minister would be aware, the government, in addition to standing up a joint police operation between AFP and state and territory police forces, has introduced the Migration Amendment (Bridging Visa Conditions) Bill 2023, which passed the parliament and allows ministers to add conditions on bridging visas granted to noncitizens released from immigration—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, please resume your seat. Senator Cash?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cash</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a point of order in relation to relevance. The question was in relation to how many have now been released into the community and whether or not you are pursuing resettlement in relation to any of them.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cash. The minister did refer to a statement, which of course I don't have before me and don't know the contents of. I will remind the minister of the question, but without knowing the full details of the statement I really can't rule.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the number so far released, I am advised that as a consequence of the High Court's decision the 148 individuals have now been released from immigration detention. Perhaps I could go back, though, because I would have thought the senator would be interested in how we try to keep Australians safe in circumstances where the High Court has ordered the release, a decision which any government is required to observe. The government has passed the Migration Amendment (Bridging Visa Conditions) Bill. The government also brought in a strengthening of that legislation—the Migration Amendment (Bridging Visa Conditions and Other Measures) Bill 2023—which criminalises further bridging visa conditions. I note that this opposition, for some reason, voted against— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, it has been reported in the media that at least three of those have been released with no conditions imposed on them. Can you explain why there have been no conditions on their release?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, with respect to Senator Cash, I'm not going to take as read what she is asserting. If she has questions about the exercise of that law by ministers, I'll certainly see whether we can provide any further information in the absence of any further detail now. But I would make the point that if Senator Cash and those opposite are interested in increasing the penalties on persons released then perhaps Senator Cash could explain to the chamber why her party voted with Adam Bandt and their party against legislation designed to increase the severity of penalties—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take the interjection. She says it's because we had to wait for the High Court. Isn't that interesting, because, as I recall, you were in here being very loud about why we didn't have to wait for the High Court. So, which is it, Senator Cash? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, will the government provide details to the Australian people on why it was necessary to release each of the 140 detainees into the community, including paedophiles, rapists, murderers and a contract killer?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>First, we are providing briefings to the opposition, which Senator Cash is aware of. Secondly, this goes to the fundamental point that these individuals have not been released because the government made a determination that they had to be released; these people are being released as a consequence of the High Court decision, which struck down laws that you had in place—and not the first set of laws of yours that they have struck down. We don't believe that you actually make people's—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, I know you want to interject a lot on this, but I would make this point: you are supposed to be the shadow Attorney-General. The shadow Attorney-General understands the separation of powers. The shadow Attorney-General should understand that a government, under the Westminster system, does not act like an autocratic dictatorship and actually does what the court says. I know Mr Morrison wanted a very different approach on robodebt— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expire</inline><inline font-style="italic">d)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Change</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I start my question I want to, on behalf of the Greens, convey my deep condolences to all of you for your loss. I'm so sorry to hear of Ms Peta Murphy's passing.</para>
<para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Minister Wong. The world's largest annual climate talks are currently underway in the United Arab Emirates, and this year's president of the climate COP, Sultan Al Jaber, has claimed that there is no science indicating that a phase-out of fossil fuels is needed to restrict global heating to 1½ degrees. This is directly at odds with the position of UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres, who said to COP delegates:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The science is clear:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The 1.5-degree limit is only possible if we ultimately stop burning all fossil fuels.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not reduce.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not abate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Phaseout – with a clear timeframe …</para></quote>
<para>Does the Australian government support the UN Secretary-General and the world's climate scientists in condemning this harmful fossil fuel industry spin?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We support our targets, which include in excess of 82 per cent renewables in our grid by 2030 and net zero by 2050. I've said in this chamber to you, Senator, and to others in your party that we recognise the scale of the transformation of Australia's energy grid and energy sources that is required for that. Australia is a very fossil fuel intensive economy, and we've benefited economically from that over many decades, but that is no longer the world in which we live, and we have to live in a world where we can thrive in a net zero economy. That means a massive transformation. Unlike the Greens—we have a difference of views about how to achieve that.</para>
<para>The approach from the Greens seems to be that you just stop. We say that you actually have to shift. You have to generate new capacity in renewables. The measures that Mr Bowen announced the week before last or last week—I'm sorry, I'm losing the weeks towards the end of the year—in terms of capacity investment are designed to do that. A lot is said internationally; a lot is said domestically. If I may say, I think too much of the climate debate has been a lot of rhetoric and not enough about policy. We're interested in policy that actually transforms the Australian economy so we can be the renewable energy superpower that we have sought to be for so many years, but it has never been delivered.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note the five coal and gas approvals issued by this government. This year's COP president, Sultan Al Jaber, is also the chief executive of the United Arab Emirates state-owned oil company, ADNOC. ADNOC has the biggest oil expansion plans of any fossil fuel company in the world. Does the government agree that an oil executive holding the COP presidency constitutes a serious conflict of interest and, as Al Gore has said, an abuse of public trust?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the quip at the start, I'd say, 'QED.' It's precisely the sort of response that there always is from the Greens.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! The question has been asked.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're not actually interested in transformation. You're not interested in the economic policies which are required to ensure that we shift to renewables. You want a political protest over certain issues. I'm not going to respond to the assertions made in much of that. I'm not familiar with some of the assertions that you're making. We are responsible for our approach. We have ambitious targets. They are going to be tough to meet. They are going to require sensible economic policy. They are going to require us to create the incentive for the market to invest, which has not occurred for a decade, and we are focused on ensuring that transformation takes place.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>More than 100 countries, including the US—which is the world's biggest oil and gas producer—already support a phase-out of fossil fuels. Will the Australian government join more than 100 countries at COP28 to ensure that a fossil fuel phase-out is included in the final agreement, or will you continue to side with coal, oil and gas companies?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm always interested the binaries that the Greens decide to put up.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Rice</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, it's called science!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, they are the binaries that you choose to put up in order to make political points that don't actually do anything on the climate. I think our position of 82 per cent renewables by 2030 is a demonstration of the effort we are making. You may think that there's some switch that the world can throw.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why don't you yell a bit more? I'm sure that'll fix the climate, Senator Whish-Wilson. The reality is your party does not have a single policy that I can see that will actually transform the economy. You want political protest and you want slogans but not any policy about actually transforming the energy grid or the economy, which is a tough job, and it is one we are focused on.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living: Christmas</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, Minister Watt. Minister, now that we are in December it's officially the festive season and families around the country are beginning to plan for their Christmas celebrations. We know that Australian families look forward to sitting down with their families to get great Australian produce on Christmas Day. With cost-of-living pressures front of mind in all Australian households, what is the Albanese government doing to assist Australian families with the price of groceries in the lead-up to Christmas?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, I'm sure you'd agree that Christmas is the most wonderful time of year. For one thing, the Senate isn't sitting, and that's a good thing for all of us! But, more than that, it's a time to get together with friends and family, spend time relaxing in the sun and to eat, drink and be merry—but not too much of course!</para>
<para>It can also be a tough time for Australians struggling with cost-of-living pressures. Presents for the kids, fuel to get to the other side of town to visit your family, fresh seafood as well as drinks—the cost of Christmas can really add up, so anything that can be done to give families a hand during this time is obviously beneficial, and those with the most to give should be the first to help.</para>
<para>That's why today I've called on the big supermarket chains to freeze the price of Christmas hams. The traditional ham—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm surprised that the opposition don't think that's a good idea, sneering at the idea of freezing the price of Christmas hams. How concerned about the cost of living you are! The opposition might be surprised to hear this, but the traditional ham is a staple of any Christmas lunch in Australia. I would have thought you would have known that. It's time for supermarkets to do their part and say one thing we won't put up is the price of a Christmas ham. Guaranteeing a price freeze on ham would allow families to manage their budgets in the weeks leading up to the holiday, and I really would have thought that this was something that the opposition could get behind, but apparently not. It's always politics for them, not caring about the average Australian citizen who's trying to save some money.</para>
<para>Farmers also need certainty that they'll get a fair price from supermarkets. These supermarkets have been recording increased revenue and profits while households and farmers are feeling the pinch. For the average Aussie, it doesn't make sense that the price on the bottom of their docket at the supermarket is going up while these companies are recording massive profits—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Water's more expensive now. That should have been down.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hughes!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and that's why for some time now I've been calling on the supermarkets to drop their meat prices and be more competitive for Australians. The government is doing our bit to help with cost-of-living pressures, and now it's time for the business community to do their part. Since coming to office, the Albanese government has increased the maximum competition penalties from $10 million to $50 million, and we'll keep working on this.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>While Australian families are turning their minds to Christmas Day, they're still thinking about broader cost-of-living pressures. What other supports is the government providing to Australian households to assist them in the lead-up to Christmas?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Sheldon. I thank you for your efforts, along with all senators in the Labor team, for delivering real cost-of-living relief for Australians, something that the opposition have failed to do.</para>
<para>We know that Australians are doing it tough, and that's why helping with cost-of-living pressures is this government's No. 1 priority. And, while the parliament is taking a break for Christmas, I can tell you that people still get sick, kids still need looking after and households still use energy during the festive season, and that's exactly why the Albanese government has delivered $23 billion in targeted relief while not adding to inflation pressure. For instance, we've delivered electricity bill relief—opposed by the opposition. We've made medicines cheaper—opposed by the opposition. We've made it easier and cheaper to see a doctor—opposed by the opposition. We've delivered cheaper child care and expanded parental leave—opposed by the coalition. We've built more social and affordable homes and increased rent assistance—opposed by the coalition.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And we have delivered fee-free TAFE as well making sure wages are raising—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Senator Sheldon, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given that dealing with cost-of-living pressures are the No. 1 priority of the Albanese government, what obstacles does the government face delivering cost-of-living relief to Australians and how does the government intend to deal with these?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I call the minister, I am going to call for order, particularly on my left.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>President, it continues to amaze me that every time we talk about delivering cost-of-living relief we get laughed at from the other side. I mean, it might be a laughing issue on the North Shore of Sydney, somewhere that Senator Sharma knew very well until recently, but it's a very real issue that Australians are dealing with, and that's why we're doing everything we can to help. But, unfortunately, the biggest obstacle to all the cost-of-living relief that we're providing to Australians is the Liberal Party and its leader.</para>
<para>As I say, over the last few weeks I've called on the supermarket chains to cut their meat prices, and I'm pleased to see that is starting to happen.</para>
<para>I will give credit where it is due. We have seen the Greens political party, Senator Lambie and even the Nationals joining us in putting pressure on the big supermarkets but we have heard nothing from the Liberal Party—total silence because they are the party of no solutions. In the past four months in question time the Leader of the Opposition has asked just three questions on cost of living. That's how much he cares about it. He has asked no questions on interest rates, energy or Medicare because he doesn't care about cost-of-living relief and opposes everything we try to do.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Birmingham. Senator Roberts.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Across the chamber. Senator McKim!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Hughes, I've called you a number of times. The crossbench do not get the same opportunities as the bigger parties in this place. Senator Roberts has been on his feet for quite a few seconds, waiting to ask his question yet your rude and disrespectful comments across the chamber continue. Senator Roberts.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cybersecurity</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is for the Minister for Finance, Senator Gallagher. ABC reports in July revealed that hackers were able to exploit loopholes in the government's myGov system and, as of February 2023, lodged more than half a billion dollars in fraudulent tax claims. Given the minister's claims that a digital identity would be secure, can the minister please provide an updated figure on how many billions of dollars in fraudulent claims hackers have lodged to date in exploiting myGov system vulnerabilities?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The first thing I would say about that is myGov is different to myGovID; they are completely different things. I don't have updated information. MyGov is the site you go to, as many people in this place will have, to engage with government in an online way. But myGovID is a digital ID that you control and own and use for verifying your identity and, if you are a business, for engaging with the tax office in particular. There are 10.5 million Australians who have a myGovID and use it for that purpose, but it is very different to the question that Senator Roberts raises around the myGov system, which I don't have an update on. It falls under the Minister for Government Services' portfolio. I am happy to see if there is something that minister would be able to provide you around an update on that.</para>
<para>MyGov obviously is a system that we invest heavily in to make sure it is useable and safe for people when they are engaging with government, but that doesn't change the comments I made last week about the digital ID system being safe and trustworthy and voluntary. If you are an individual, you will not have to have one of these digital IDs but, if you do want one, the option is there, and it's a way of reducing the amount of information that government collects in order to verify your identity. So, the two things, myGovID and myGov—I accept they are similarly named—are very different things indeed.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in June, Russian hackers compromised top secret Australian Defence Force data. In July, NDIS participants were exposed in a data breach, and the Department of Home Affairs leaked personal small business information. In August, the Department of Veterans' Affairs leaked medical data. In September, Australian Federal Police data was hacked. Why is it falsely claimed the government's digital ID is secure when the government can't keep data secure?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't accept the proposition that's being put by Senator Roberts. Yes, government systems are under constant attack and threat, as most businesses are in this country, from cybercrime, from hackers, and from scams and criminals that are engaged in such activity, so the government invests heavily in protecting our systems, making sure they are safe. But in a sense, you are making the argument for a digital ID, because a digital ID is about reducing the amount of information that the government holds on you about you for services.</para>
<para>Because of the way the system works, you retain the information, but you're able to have your ID verified through a process of exchange that allows those systems to be unlocked. Absolutely fundamental to the digital ID system is reducing the amount of information, having the safeguards in place— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, will the government support a One Nation amendment to the digital identity bill explicitly stating that no Australian will ever be denied access to services because they do not have a digital ID? Or is the claim that the digital ID won't be compulsory just misinformation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to engage with you genuinely on digital ID. I accept your interest in it and I am very willing to work with anyone in this chamber to make sure that the legislation that passes this place is the best that it can be. In relation to your specific question, as part of the bill we do require that services be maintained and offered for people that don't want to have a digital ID. That protection is there. I am very happy to engage with you more broadly on the bill, including in other areas that you might have concerns about.</para>
<para>That clause relates specifically to individuals. As you know, myGov ID is required for business-related services, and part of that is about minimising fraud and identity theft, verifying individuals as part of their engagement with the tax office.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>45</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question to the minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Should Australians prepare to live with interest rates being higher for longer, as forecast by ANZ CEO Shayne Elliot?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What Australians do have is a government that is working very hard to fight inflation. We have seen some moderation in the most recent inflation figures—obviously, much more is required, but we are committed to fighting inflation because we understand the effect that it has on families, on the cost of living and on how people are struggling as a consequence of higher inflation.</para>
<para>We're focused on fighting inflation. We know the opposition are fighting anything but inflation. We know that a number of the measures that ensured—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, resume your seat. Senator Hume?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hume</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance, I mentioned interest rates, not inflation. The minister is yet to use the phrase 'interest rates'.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As you know, Senator Hume, I can't put words into the minister's mouth.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, you are not in a debate with me. Please resume your seat. As I said, I am not in a position to put words into the minister's mouth. I'm happy to remind her of the question but I believe the minister is being relevant. Minister Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm interested in the proposition that inflation is not relevant to interest rates. That seems to be the point of that point of order—that somehow a discussion of inflation is not relevant to interest rates. As the shadow minister knows, interest rates are set independently by the Reserve Bank. What governments can do is to ensure that we engage in the fight against inflation. Unfortunately, when we and the Australian community needed allies in that, instead they've had an opposition determined to oppose the measures that the government is seeking to put in place to fight inflation.</para>
<para>I would remind the shadow minister that without our energy plan electricity prices would have risen 18.8 per cent instead of 8.4 per cent. So they're happy for electricity prices to go up nearly 19 per cent. That's the position of the opposition. Energy price relief that you voted against— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, a first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the ANZ CEO correct when he states that the rate of current government spending will keep interest rates higher for longer?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I recall, this government returned a surplus in 2022-23. I know that is difficult for the coalition to accept, because they trumpeted the 'Back in black'—they got the mugs out; they were quite triumphant—but then, of course, they didn't actually deliver one. I know that's very hard for them to accept. The reality is that this is a government that returned a surplus of $22.1 billion in 2022-23. It was a dramatic improvement from the forecast nearly $78 billion deficit that we inherited. In fact, that is a $100 billion turnaround, the biggest nominal budget improvement in Australian history.</para>
<para>We've returned 95 per cent of revenue upgrades to the bottom line in 2022-23. That is more than double the average of the previous government. So I have to say I don't think we'll take a lecture from those opposite, who returned deficit after deficit and did not return revenue upgrades. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, secondary supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>With the Reserve Bank governor describing inflation is now being a 'homegrown' problem and the ANZ CEO identifying current government spending as a driver of higher inflation and higher interest rates, do the Prime Minister and the Albanese government accept any responsibility for the pain and mortgage stress being felt by a record number of Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We understand how tough so many Australians are doing it and we do not shirk our responsibility to do all we can to fight inflation. And, unlike those opposite, we're not going to be distracted by—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hume</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>By the Voice?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>the political arguments. Unlike those opposite, we're not going to be voting in this chamber against energy price relief—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hume</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're not going to be distracted by job security?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, you've asked your question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Unlike those opposite, we're not going to be focused on political fights. We are going to be focused on fighting inflation, which is the key driver behind the cost-of-living challenges that so many Australians have. Unlike those opposite, we are also not going to be running a low-wage economy. We're not going to be holding wages deliberately low, because we understand that also matters when it comes to the cost of living.</para>
<para><inline font-style="italic">An opposition senator interjecting</inline>—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take the intervention from the shadow minister, who said, 'That pushes up inflation too.' We have the Mathias Cormann line here—that in fact there's a deliberate design feature of the Australian economy to hold wages low. I don't think that should have been scripted for you. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Endangered Species</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>WHISH-WILSON () (): My question is to Senator Wong, Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water. Last year your government announced its commitment to a zero extinctions target for Australian native flora and fauna. During this announcement, Minister Plibersek proclaimed, 'I will not shy away from difficult problems or accept environmental decline and extinction as inevitable.' Minister, the ancient endangered maugean skate has been with us since the dinosaurs. It is found only in Macquarie Harbour, on the west coast of Tasmania, but has seen a 47 per cent decline in its tiny population between 2014 and 2021, since the expansion of industrial salmon farming in the harbour. Scientists researching the skate tell us it is possibly one extreme weather event away from extinction. Given the El Niño forecasts for marine heatwaves in the coming months in Tasmania, what is your government doing to immediately safeguard the skate from an extinction event this summer?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I got a question last week from Senator Duniam which was probably the other side of this discussion, and I appreciate, as with so many issues in Tasmania, they're very strongly held views on either side of a very clear line. I appreciate that your focus is on one aspect of these matters in relation to Macquarie Harbour. Obviously, I got a question last week in relation to the Tasmanian salmon industry, and I would refer you to my answer to Senator Duniam about the industry.</para>
<para>I'm advised that the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water will soon begin consultation about salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour. The consultation is as a result of applications made under the national environment laws by three groups who argue that salmon farming is having an unacceptable impact on the maugean skate—as you said, an endangered fish. I'd make the point that the environmental laws which require these applications to be considered were passed by the Howard government in, I think, early 2000.</para>
<para>In addition, Ms Plibersek has announced a $2.1 million commitment to establish a captive breeding program to help the maugean skate. Obviously, there will be an opportunity in the consultation to consider the work of the joint Tasmanian and federal government maugean skate recovery team, the decision of the Tasmanian government's EPA, conservation advice on the maugean skate, community views and any other relevant matters.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the government's own conservation advice states that increasing water oxygenation through immediately destocking industrial salmon farming is the most critical action required to save the endangered skate from extinction. Why is Minister Plibersek consulting, ignoring the science and shying away from this difficult problem by not immediately pausing salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for his question. There are a quite number of assertions in that, which obviously I don't accept.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's your own conservation advice. Your own scientists are telling you that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I don't accept—and I'd refer you back to the status of the current applications and the commitment that Minister Plibersek has made to consultation. After the consultation period ends, the department will take some time to carefully consider the information received. The minister has indicated that salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour does not have to pause while this occurs; I infer that that is a decision open to her. I also infer, from what you have said, that that's not something with which you agree, but that is obviously the decision that the minister has made.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I'm going to ask you a question—and perhaps you and I can both look back on the answers when we leave this place. Can I ask you one of the great moral and political questions of our time: how many industry jobs are worth the avoidable extinction of a critically endangered species? Specifically, how many salmon industry jobs on the West Coast of Tasmania are worth the extinction of the ancient maugean skate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think we've made clear that we do support the aquaculture industry, including the Tasmanian salmon industry, but we've also said that the industry needs to continue to demonstrate that it can operate in a sustainable and responsible manner. I note that, just as some on one side of the debate will say that any environmental regulation is anti job, on the other side of the debate, you have some, on your side of the debate, who've seemed to assert—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, there's been no regulation.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, you've asked your question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Order, Senator Whish-Wilson. You've asked your question. The minister is answering. Minister Wong, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're back to binaries again. I know that it is politically easy and useful for campaigning to—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have a zero extinction target!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, I've called you to order!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson! Senator Whish-Wilson! Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, I understand that there are some who have a very clear view about 'yay' or 'nay'. I think that it is possible, with goodwill and good scientific evidence, to try and ensure that industries operate sustainably, and that is a good thing for the environment and for jobs. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Trade and Tourism, Senator Farrell. Since being elected, the Albanese Labor government has been commended for its careful and considered management of international trade relations. This praise has come from all corners, including from the agriculture, resources, manufacturing and service sectors, as well as from civil society and the Labor movement. Australian exporters in particular have benefited. They'd felt they were let down badly by the former Coalition government. Minister, please outline how the Albanese Labor government has been on the front foot to grow the Australian economy through its support of exports.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Sterle for his question and his interest in trade, which so benefits his home state of Western Australia. The coalition's mismanagement of trading relationships and denial of climate change hurt our country's trade and investment relationships. But, in just 18 months since the Albanese government came to office, I'm pleased to advise that Australia's trade agenda is being progressed in a stable and positive way.</para>
<para>Trade impediments affecting Australian exports to China, for instance, worth $20 billion have been removed or are on the pathway to removal. By any measure, this is a huge achievement which has been positively acknowledged by miners and farmers right across Australia.</para>
<para>Australian exporters are benefiting from the Albanese government's hard work to finalise trade deals with the United Kingdom and India. Exports to the United Kingdom have increased significantly in the first four months of the agreement entering into force, including beef, which increased by around 320 per cent; honey, which increased by more than 170 per cent; and sheepmeat, which increased by 35 per cent. That's great news for farmers, including in your home state of Western Australia, Senator Sterle, and right across the country. And Australian exporters are taking advantage of the trade deal with India. Agricultural exports have grown by 86 per cent in the first seven months of 2023, and exports of manufactured goods, such as pharmaceuticals, wood and paper products, cosmetics and medical devices, have increased markedly. Trade is vitally important to Australian economic prosperity. More exports mean more and higher-paying jobs for Australian workers.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sterle, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Under the steady stewardship of the Albanese Labor government, many of the trade impediments imposed by China when the coalition government were in power have now been removed, which is particularly great news for the Australian mining and agriculture sectors. I know you can and I know you will, Minister, but please identify Australian exports to China that are directly benefiting from a mature hand on the trade policy tiller.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Sterle, for those wonderful words. The Albanese Labor government is working hard to stabilise our relationship with China without compromising on what is important to Australians. Our efforts have led to positive trade developments, including the lifting of trade impediments affecting Australian coal, cotton, copper ores, logs, horticultural products, oats, hay and barley. Industry appreciates this hard work, with Viterra, a great company based in South Australia, acknowledging a 66,000-tonne barley shipment last month from Port Lincoln. I'll say that again: a 66,000-tonne barley shipment from Port Lincoln. And it would not have happened without this government's efforts. We've secured a pathway towards an early resolution of the wine dispute with China, and recent developments mean Tasmanian cherries and apples are headed back to China. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sterle, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Albanese Labor government was responsible for bringing the trade agreements with the United Kingdom and India into force. Could the minister please outline how the swift implementation of these two trade agreements is benefiting Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I can, Senator Sterle. Our trade agreements with the United Kingdom and India are helping Australian exporters. A range of Australian exports to the United Kingdom are benefiting from lower UK trade barriers, including beef, chocolate, confectionary, honey, sheepmeat, aluminium, motor vehicles and medical devices. Since the entry into force of the trade deal with India, around 85 per cent of Australian goods exported, by value, now enter India duty free. Australians are expected to save about $200 million annually in import duties paid on UK goods. Both the United Kingdom and India trade agreements are supporting Australian jobs and helping with cost-of-living pressures for Australian families. This government's trade agenda is delivering for all Australians.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Brisbane Olympic and Paralympic Games</title>
          <page.no>49</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Senator Watt. Last week, we had the extraordinary spectacle of the Queensland Deputy Premier travelling all the way down here with a delegation of mayors to demand that the government restore funding for Brisbane's Olympics infrastructure, budgeted by the former coalition government. On Saturday, the former chairman of the Australian Olympic Committee, John Coates, panned the government's changes, saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We certainly had all the commitments at the time when we went forward with this bid and they've been confirmed previously and I'm struggling to see how they can now renege on them.</para></quote>
<para>Did the government consult with the Australian Olympic Committee about the potential impacts on games preparedness before putting projects like the Sunshine Coast rail at risk?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Canavan, thank you for the question because it gives me an opportunity to point out that the coalition government, while making promises about funding of infrastructure for the 2032 Olympic Games, did not commit or provide in the budget one single cent. The last time I looked at building construction costs, you don't really get a stadium for zero cents, you don't get a road for zero cents, you don't get a rail line for zero cents or for zero dollars—and that's exactly the amount that was committed by the former coalition government and that has, of course, been improved upon by the Albanese Labor government.</para>
<para>That's why the budget we handed down this year, the 2023-24 budget, actually delivers real funding, not just promises, on the Australian government's funding commitment towards the 2032 Games. Over the forward estimates $504 million has been firmly committed in the budget papers—not just promises—towards the Brisbane Arena project, and $512 million towards the 16 new and upgraded venues across South-East Queensland, which is a total of $1.076 billion. In total, the Albanese government—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Canavan?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Canavan</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My question was a very simple and direct one: did the government consult with the AOC? The minister has gone nowhere near that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure I'd call it 'a simple one'; there was a fair bit of preamble in there. But I will draw the minister to that part of your question, Senator Canavan.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government of course consults with the AOC, the Queensland government and various other partners in the delivery of the Olympics infrastructure on a regular basis. I know from previous reports that both the Queensland government and the AOC have been very pleased that they now have a federal government in place—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>that is actually prepared to deliver real funding for the Olympics infrastructure rather than the hollow promises that we had from the former coalition government.</para>
<para>As I say, in total the Albanese government is delivering $2.5 billion for the Brisbane Arena development and up to $935 million for the minor venues program. This is real funding, not just promises.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Senator McKenzie, I am going to ask you to withdraw the comments you made as the minister was speaking, in regard to mistruths.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If it assists the chamber, I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Senator Canavan, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, given the Queensland government's cost blowouts to the M1 Pacific Highway Varsity Lakes to Tugun upgrade, and the Albanese government's fifty-fifty limitation on funding, what other Brisbane Olympics supporting transport projects have been put at risk by Labor's infrastructure review?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The only thing that put any Queensland infrastructure projects at risk was the fact that the former coalition government did not budget for those projects, did not have business plans for those projects, did not have a single dollar in the budget and didn't have the skills and the labour needed to deliver those projects. That is why we have had to do the hard work that the coalition government was never prepared to do, to actually work out in this inflationary environment which projects can be delivered and which ones need to be paused for a period of time.</para>
<para>In the process we have followed through on funding for almost all the projects that were previously committed to by the former government, but there are some that need a business case to be prepared before they can be delivered. Senator Canavan, I haven't seen you out there clapping the federal government for delivering the funding that was needed for the cost increase to the Rockhampton Ring Road; I have seen you doing a lot of campaigning in scaring people that the funding wasn't there, but now that it actually is there you haven't said a thing. Get out there and get on board!</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Canavan, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to ask a question about the Rocky Ring Road, but I'll stick to my script! Will the government commit to complete Bruce Highway projects, including the Gateway Motorway to Dohles Rocks Road upgrade and the Linkfield Road overpass project supporting accessibility for the 2032 Olympics?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Ayres, I was just thinking about this: I've never seen Senator Canavan so interested in the south-east corner of Queensland! We know he used to be a Marxist before he went to the Productivity Commission, and now he's in the National Party. We know he used to be in Logan before he went to Rockhampton and tried to care about that—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. I will come to you, Senator Rennick. Senator Ruston, I am going to ask you to withdraw those comments.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If it assists the chamber, I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Senator Rennick?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Rennick</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is on relevance. Senator Watt has done nothing but make personal smears against Senator Canavan, who is asking a serious question about infrastructure—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, that is not a point of order. Minister, I am going to draw you to Senator Canavan's question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to provide further information about the funding that is being provided, but, now that Senator Canavan has returned from his bogus Central Queensland roots to his South-East Queensland roots, I look forward to him revisiting his Marxist era, when he was at school or university. I've forgotten which one it was. Many of the projects needed to support the games are already being funded—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt should specifically withdraw the word 'bogus', which impugns the motives of Senator Canavan.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>When senators rise on a point of order, I would prefer that they didn't repeat the offensive word. I will ask him to withdraw. Minister, please withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw. Many of the projects needed to support the games are already being funded, planned and delivered in the current infrastructure investment pipeline in order to support the growth of South-East Queensland. I'm pleased that Senator Canavan now recognises that South-East Queensland deserves support as well. For example, we are delivering $2.1 billion to the M1 Pacific Motorway upgrade program. We're delivering $1.06 billion to the Coomera Connector stage 1, as well as $300 million to the Brisbane Metro, funding for the Gold Coast light rail stage 3 and, of course, money for more planning of the Sunshine Coast rail as well— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>50</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Senator Watt. Across regional Australia, local communities have concerns about access to secure and affordable housing. One of the biggest things that I'm hearing from regional communities and businesses is that, if we don't fix the housing shortages caused by 10 years of delay, we won't be able to house the skilled workers that we need. Doctors, nurses, teachers and tradies all want to live in our regions, and we need houses for them. What is the Albanese government doing to help Australians buy homes and relieve cost-of-living pressures?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's great that we've got a senator on this side of the chamber that cares about regional housing. The Albanese government understands that safe and affordable housing is central to the security and dignity of all Australians. A decade of no action from the 'no-alition' left us with significant challenges across the country. The result is that housing affordability, once only a problem for our major cities, is now a problem right across the country. Regional businesses and councils have jobs to fill, but attracting the workers they need is difficult because there's a shortage of housing for the workers to live in. The Albanese government, unlike the coalition, is actually doing something about it. We've delivered the largest investment in new affordable and social homes in decades, with the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund and a commitment for 30,000 new social and affordable rental homes in the first five years—opposed by Mr Dutton and the coalition. That's how much you care about housing in regional Australia. You voted against the Housing Australia Future Fund and 30,000 new social and affordable rental homes in just five years. These are the homes that Australia needs, in the regions that they need them.</para>
<para>The HAFF is just part of our government's ambitious housing reform agenda. The Regional First Home Buyer Guarantee, since its launch, has helped more than 13,000 regional Australians to get into homes. Importantly, our Help to Buy scheme will cut the cost of buying a home by up to 40 per cent for low- and middle-income earners, bringing homeownership back into reach for 40,000 Australian households. The Help to Buy scheme is an important part of our housing agenda.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, a first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've heard from constituents who are frustrated that access to affordable housing was neglected by the Liberals and Nationals for a decade. Why is it important that Australians—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's exactly what they say.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, President; I'm the one who is asking the question, and I can hear Senator Hughes over me.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is it important that Australians—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Maybe I can rewrite it so it makes sense.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hughes.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is it important Australians have safe and affordable housing? What action is the government taking to get around obstacles to this?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's a great question, Senator Green. As you know, safe and affordable housing is vital, not only to protect our way of life but for the continued economic prosperity of our regional areas.</para>
<para>But, unfortunately, it appears that there is a new alliance in Australian politics, a new coalition that continues to stand in the way of access to housing for Australians. All of a sudden, Senator McKim is looking very guilty. The coalition of the unwilling between the National Party, the Liberal Party and the Greens political party stands like a dam wall to block every effort the Albanese government makes to build new homes. We saw it first with the Housing Australia Future Fund, where the Greens teamed up with the LNP for months to delay $10 billion of housing investment until they were shamed into supporting it. Last week we saw it again when the government tried to move ahead with our Help to Buy scheme. What did the coalition of the unwilling between the Liberals, the Nationals and the Greens do? They pushed it off to April. When it comes to housing, Labor offers help to buy and the coalition of the unwilling just says, 'Goodbye.' <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, second supplementary?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just a moment, Senator Green. Order! Senator Colbeck and Senator McKenzie, when I say, 'Order!' it applies to you.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, cost of living and affordable housing are at front of mind for all Australians. What barriers do Australians face to accessing housing and much-needed cost-of-living relief, and how does the government intend to remove them?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, Senator Green, the barriers to housing in Australia are around us. They start over that side, and they end just on the other side of Senator Grogan over there. The biggest barrier standing in the way of our progress in developing new housing is this new coalition of the unwilling between the Liberals, the National and the Greens. Let's look at their record. They partnered up last week to vote against stronger immigration laws, they partnered up months ago to vote against the Housing Australia Future Fund, they partnered up to vote against the nature repair bill, and last week they partnered up to delay the Help to Buy scheme. If I were the National Party, I would be a little bit concerned that the Greens might be coming after their spot as the junior coalition partner in this coalition of the unwilling, because we know the Greens have more senators than the National Party, so, on the numbers, the Greens might have the right to provide the Deputy Prime Minister. We've seen conservatives in other countries around the world have a three-way partnership in power sharing. Why wouldn't Mr Dutton do that? Who would go first as Deputy Prime Minister? Would it be Mr Bandt or would it— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Minister Watt, I've called you about three times.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Nuclear Energy</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Does any honourable member wish to take note of answers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much, Deputy President. I'll take that compliment. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Senator Wong) to a question without notice asked by Senator Birmingham today relating to nuclear energy.</para></quote>
<para>This government, sadly, is proving to be, I put to you, Deputy President, the worst government since Federation. This is a terrible government, and it has demonstrated time and time again that it is not up for governing in relation to the important matters that relate to the running of this country. This government is a terrible government. Bring on the election as soon as we possibly can, I say, because the Australian people are really starting to wise up to how bad this government really is.</para>
<para>Just in the last few days, this government has embarrassed itself yet again on the international stage in going over to this conference on climate and not siding with the usual international partners in relation to energy. We could have gone there and really shared and led the way, but, no, we didn't. This government is like the dog that caught the car: now it doesn't know what to do with it. This government said that it was going to have some real action on climate change, lead with integrity and honesty, and deal with issues such as cost of living.</para>
<para>Yet on all of those matters they are proving to be incapable.</para>
<para>When it comes to nuclear energy, the world has accepted that in order to meet the objectives around climate change, to breach net zero—regardless of what your position is on net zero; I mean, if you set a target, then obviously you have to seek to reach it—the only way to actually meet those objectives around net zero is to include nuclear in your energy mix. This government, due to their ideology—which seems to trip them up every single time, whether it's on immigration, whether it's on industrial relations or whether it's on matters of the economy and certainly here with energy—are tripped up. They're tripped up by their own ideology.</para>
<para>The minister responsible, the member for McMahon—Australia's energy champion—has no idea. He says the only way Australia can meet these objectives around net zero is to use renewable energy. Senator Wong, when she came in here and answered the question on this matter today, said Australia is the sunniest place on the planet, or words to that effect—and she's right; it is. I think there's only one other place, maybe in Africa. But everyone knows the sun doesn't shine all day; the wind doesn't blow all day. So if you're going to produce your energy requirements just off renewables, you need to then have a significant—enormous—scale of storage that is just not feasible. So, nuclear provides a clean, efficient and reliable source of power that is necessary to provide that reliable and affordable power to Australians, to industry.</para>
<para>Imagine the sorts of industries we could see here if we had an abundant source of energy, a reliable source of energy, an affordable source of energy that nuclear can provide. But this government, because of their ideology, is lost at sea. There are countries around the world where there are even green parties supporting nuclear, like in Germany. In the United States, which is divided on so many issues, the left and the right have come together and recognised that nuclear provides a solution for them—on the left because of reducing emissions, and on the right because of the energy security. They've come together. They recognise that nuclear provides a future for that country. Australia, sadly, is one of the few countries in the world now that is not embracing this. This government ought to be leading the way, but it's not on the international stage, like on so many fronts.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Isn't it amazing? Everyone's on board. Well, of the 22 nations that signed the pledge, 18 have a nuclear energy industry already. The four countries without nuclear power that signed were Moldova, Morocco, Poland and Mongolia. There were 14 countries with nuclear industries that did not sign the pledge. Germany did not sign the pledge. They decommissioned their last nuclear power plant this year. We saw that nuclear may have a role in countries such as France, where they have an existing nuclear energy industry. Let's look at the consequences for the rest of us, in this country. One of the things those on the opposite side don't tell you is where those nuclear plants can be situated. Are they going to be situated in Jervis Bay? They won't be situated in the eastern suburbs of Sydney; that won't happen. But will they be situated in every other place? We turn around and try to make sure we have a proper industry, a safe and secure industry, but it is an industry that our communities don't want—and for very good reasons. They trump up the benefits of non-commercial small modular reactor technology without owning the costs of that technology; they won't own that cost. Who's going to pay for development at those costs?</para>
<para>The Leader of the Nationals recently said, 'We don't expect nuclear energy in the next decade or so, but we've got till 2050.' This is the essence. They actually don't want to do anything. This whole argument about nuclear power is so they can sit on their hands and pretend they're doing something, rather than supporting investment in renewables, which is what we need to be doing, in line with the commitments this government has made. They don't actually want the effects of a more viable, more efficient and cheaper electricity system. If they did, they would have voted for electricity bill relief. The average family would be $230 worse off this year without Labor's energy price relief plan, which the coalition voted against.</para>
<para>If you do the maths, the analysis of the cost of nuclear power shows that Australians would be lumped with a $387 billion cost burden if nuclear power were to replace the retiring coal-fired power station fleet. This represents a whopping $25,000 cost impost on each Australian taxpayer. Peter Dutton and the opposition need to explain why Australians will be slugged with a $387 billion cost burden for a nuclear energy plan that flies in the face of economics and reason. After nine years of no energy policy and absolute chaos, and rather than finally embracing a clean, cheap, safe and secure transition to a renewable energy future, all the coalition can promise is a multibillion dollar nuclear flavoured energy policy. It's the one thing that unites them. They're thinking: 'It must be a good idea because it unites us! We can slow up clean energy investment. We can slow up a strategy that actually reduces prices. We can keep fooling ourselves we're a party that has policies.'</para>
<para>In fact, they have had policies. They had the first one, the second one, the third one, the fourth one, the fifth one, the sixth one—I'm going to run out of fingers and toes trying to count them all up. In 10 years they kept on adopting and rejecting their own policies because they couldn't get them right. But they decided, because nuclear is not viable in this country, 'We can all agree, because we're not actually going to do it.' That's because who in their right mind would say they were going to spend $387 billion and put a $25,000 cost impost on each Australian taxpayer unless either they had no intention of really doing it or someone else was going to have to bear the price and responsibility down the track?</para>
<para>I did see with a great deal of enjoyment that Barnaby Joyce said he'd be happy to have one in his backyard. He said, 'I would absolutely welcome a nuclear facility, whether it be in my electorate or any electorate around the country.' Well, Deputy President, start asking people in your electorate and every electorate around the country, because they have a very different view about nuclear power. That's not just because of the intrinsic concerns about nuclear power that people have but because it's a waste of money. It's a burden on taxpayers. It's a dead-end policy. Rather than going with clean energy and transitioning to that proposal, those opposite want to do something that is farcical, inappropriate and unable to be achieved.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have to say I was very amused by the last contribution. I note that Senator Sheldon found it difficult to utter some of the phrases that were in the talking points, and with good reason.</para>
<para>The coalition is interested in nuclear energy because we want to consider all technologies to achieve a clean energy future for Australia. We're not saying, 'Don't go down the wind energy path.' We're not saying, 'Don't go down the solar energy path.' In fact, Australia, because of the policies of the coalition, has the highest uptake of rooftop solar in the world. Put aside the rhetoric from Labor, particularly that in the last contribution. Because of the policies of the coalition over the last decade, Australia has the highest uptake of rooftop solar in the world. We're already making our contribution.</para>
<para>The reality—and it's been recognised by advocates of clean energy globally and advocates of zero emissions—is that without nuclear energy there will be no net zero.</para>
<para>That was what John Kerry said recently. I have heard a number of serious global energy transformation advocates say that there is no net zero without nuclear.</para>
<para>It was amusing to hear the Leader of the Government in the Senate call us 'ideologues' on this side for proposing nuclear energy when it is their ideology that is actually stopping them from being in the game. It is their ideology, their internal division, that is holding the Labor Party back from actually properly considering this. We're not saying, as Senator Sheldon indicated, that the government should build at taxpayer expense nuclear power stations all around the country. That is an embarrassing gaffe by the minister, one of the many embarrassing gaffes that this minister has made—get the department to cost up the price to replace all of Australia's energy with nuclear power stations and it comes up to $387 billion. What a scam, what a load of garbage, which is why so many people see the minister as a national embarrassment.</para>
<para>We have an all-of-the-above technology approach to the development of our policy. We understand that without nuclear there is no net zero and we support the net zero task; that is why we are considering it. The suggestion that I saw from the minister over the weekend that we have no regulatory infrastructure is another complete furphy from the government because we already do have a nuclear regulator, ARPANSA. It has been in place for a long time and it regulates the nuclear reactor that we currently have in Sydney that provides medical isotopes. So we do have a nuclear energy industry in this country and we do have a nuclear plant at Lucas Heights.</para>
<para>Let's be sensible about this. Let's be a part of global action to sensibly transform our economy with affordable baseload energy and that is the role that nuclear energy can play. It is the only zero-emissions baseload energy source so that is why we are interested. What we are saying is let the market decide how this works. I was talking to a windfarm proponent at the weekend who has just had a significant win for his development in Tasmania. Talking about the economics and about the importance of him providing cheap energy into the grid, he said that, for example, his competitors in the wind and energy industry who are providing energy based on ocean wind energy, the cost would be four times what he can provide, so not all forms of wind energy is priced and costed equally. Some are more efficient than others and some cost more to build because of where they are. Let the market decide how nuclear can play a part in our energy transformation but don't be blinded by the ideology of the Labor Party and just say no.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When it comes to achieving net zero emissions on a global scale, nuclear energy is no doubt going to be part of the mix. It is certainly the right solution for some countries but it is not the right solution for Australia. As the minister for Climate Change and Energy, Minister Bowen, pointed out, many of his international counterparts have told him they would not be doing nuclear if they had Australia's access to renewable energy. At COP28 Australia has joined over 100 countries alongside other major energy exporters—the United States, Canada, Norway and more—to support the UAE's signature call which is a massive push on renewables and energy efficiency. Why? Because we know that renewables are the cleanest and cheapest form of energy, and that energy efficiency can also help drive down bills and emissions. That is why the Albanese government is supporting the UAE's signature initiative to triple global renewable energy generation capacity and double average annual energy efficiency improvements by 2030.</para>
<para>Regarding the nuclear pledge, the fact is that Australia has a massive comparative advantage when it comes to the cheapest form of energy—firmed renewables—with more sunlight hitting our landmass than any other country. It would take decades for Australia to start from scratch if we were to follow the LNP's gamble on nuclear energy in Australia. That's time we don't have, after the LNP oversaw the closure of coal plants that resulted in the loss of 26.7 gigawatts of energy, with no plan to replace it.</para>
<para>As Senator Sheldon mentioned—maybe not in quite the same words—we know there's a bit of a con going on from the opposition with regard to nuclear. We also know that their ideology is ultimately fuelled by their climate change denial and their ideological opposition to sunlight and wind—the cheapest, cleanest and most abundant forms of energy Australia has. Their claim that nuclear energy is the lowest cost form of low-carbon electricity for Australia is proven to be untrue, with nuclear around three times more expensive than firmed renewables. These are the things they don't tell you, which makes it pretty obvious that the coalition's nuclear energy plan is nothing but a con. The fact is that, in Australia, power that is generated from solar and wind is cheaper and cleaner and puts downward pressure on electricity bills.</para>
<para>We've had some rather strange antics from those on the other side. We saw the shadow minister for climate change and energy engaging in some rather bizarre and, to be honest, completely insensitive stunts like spruiking nuclear energy at the Hiroshima Peace Memorial Park. Talk about bad manners! Where would you get off to do something like that there? Hundreds of thousands of people were killed in Hiroshima and he goes there and starts spruiking nuclear energy. You know that it's nothing more than an ideological push rather than a serious proposal. If the opposition were serious, let me ask you: why did they do nothing for the almost a decade that they were in government? The reason the opposition's nuclear policy remains detail free is that—and we all know it—it's nothing more than a thought bubble. No matter how they spin it, the idea of a viable nuclear energy industry in Australia is nothing more than a fantasy and, as we've heard from Senator Sheldon, a complete waste of money.</para>
<para>Those on the other side talk about small modular reactors. There are only two such reactors up and running anywhere in the world, and neither is operating commercially. This is the kind of back-of-the-napkin policy that we've come to expect from the coalition. When they were in government they spent decades arguing among themselves over whether climate change was even real. And how many energy policies did you have in the 10 years? Does anyone care to hazard a guess or even make an informed comment? They had 22 energy policies in 10 years, and you come in here and start spruiking nuclear, because what else have you got to talk about? It's the talk that we get from the opposition that says it's committed to net zero by 2050, but it's never, ever put forward a serious plan about how to get there. This talk about nuclear energy is a distraction and nothing else.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath, the clocks will be set for three minutes, and then I'll put the question and two minutes will go to Senator Roberts.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Deputy President, you're killing me. I thought I had five minutes to expand on the benefits of nuclear energy. In fact, I could do it for hours and hours. What Australians want and need is for their electricity to be reliable and affordable. Quite frankly, most Australians don't care where their electricity comes from. When they stick the cord in the power point or they turn the lights on, they don't care whether it comes from coal, sun, wind, hamsters in a wheel or whatever it is. They want their electricity to be affordable and reliable.</para>
<para>On this side of the chamber, we're really pragmatic about it, because we're with you, middle Australia. That's why we support having a conversation about nuclear energy. Australia has a third of the world's uranium. We are geologically stable.</para>
<para>Notwithstanding the current mouth-breathers who sit around the cabinet table, we are politically stable. This is a country that should have affordable and reliable electricity, and we should be able to have a conversation about nuclear power. But what is disappointing is that the Labor Party don't want to have that conversation because they want to run a scare campaign about nuclear energy. That is shameful and it is wrong, because it is selling out middle Australia. It is selling out those people who are in a cost-of-living crisis at the moment because of the aforementioned people who sit around the cabinet table, who do not understand the battles that people are taking on to pay their bills.</para>
<para>We on this side of the chamber want to have a long-term view of where our energy should come from, whether that should be windmills or wind turbines—and where I live on the Darling Downs, there is a massive wind farm being built out at Karara—or whether it is solar, coal or nuclear. Let's have that conversation about what is in Australia's best interest rather than what is in the best interests of the Greens-Labor Party duopoly that is running Australia into the ground, running our businesses into the ground and running our families into the ground. If you want to get to net zero, the only way you're going to get there is by using nuclear energy as part of your mix. Nuclear energy is the only net zero emissions generation that helps deliver base-load energy. That is so important for Australia to achieve our international targets. If the Greens, Labor and all those other wonderful leftie people want to have net zero by the years they've chosen, then nuclear energy certainly must be part of that conversation, and let the market decide. We should lift the moratorium. If businesses want to invest in nuclear energy, they will do so. I guarantee that business will do so because they understand the benefits it will have for Australians who are struggling to pay their energy bills at the moment.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cybersecurity</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Finance (Senator Gallagher) to questions without notice I asked today relating to digital identity.</para></quote>
<para>If people want a taste of the dictatorship digital ID will be used to introduce, look no further than Minister Katy Gallagher's social media posts. On Friday she took to X to announce that she was proud of introducing the digital ID bill, declaring it secure, convenient and not compulsory. Senator Gallagher's post racked up a million views, many of which were from Australians gobsmacked that the minister blocked all comments on her post. So much for this Labor government's promised accountability and transparency. I guess the minister knew that, if she allowed comments, Australians would have easily debunked the misleading claims that a digital ID would be secure and not compulsory. Despite the censorship, Community Notes—the people's fact check—were added to the post, debunking the minister's claims. These Community Notes have mysteriously disappeared and reappeared over the weekend, making us ask whether the government applied any pressure on X to have them removed. We know that the departments of home affairs and health pressured social media to remove COVID related posts. We know that the Department of Defence asked social media to remove posts critical of the Chief of the Defence Force. It's not a stretch to imagine that the government has done the exact same thing here.</para>
<para>The idea that the government can keep any data secure is a farce. As I illustrated in my questions, government departments are our country's most frequent perpetrators of data leaks. We know that digital ID will, effectively, be compulsory. The government says people won't be forced to have it, unless of course people want to access government services, get a driver's licence or enter some buildings. Just like the COVID jabs, digital ID won't be compulsory, they tell us, yet the government will make people get one to participate in society—to live. One Nation will continue fighting the dystopian digital ID and government censorship on every front.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Endangered Species</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water (Senator Wong) to a question without notice I asked today relating to endangered species.</para></quote>
<para>There's a reason that this government signed up to a zero extinction target last year. It is because we know that we face an extinction crisis. Right before us now and before this minister—and I would say that this will be one of her biggest tests as environment minister—we have a clear-cut example. There is a species, the ancient maugean skate, that is found in only one place on earth, and that is in Macquarie Harbour on Tasmania's West Coast. It is found in only one place. We know the species has declined so rapidly because of industrial salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour and a lack of oxygen in its natural harbour.</para>
<para>The scientific advice that came out earlier this year warned that there was a lack of juvenile recruitment in the harbour, which means they weren't finding any young skate. The scientists who studied this skate said that they believed it was one extreme weather event away from extinction. It is that fragile. So this is a test case for the minister. Having just signed up to a zero-extinction pledge, will you back in the science—the conservation advice—that was only recently upgraded?</para>
<para>I questioned the head of the Threatened Species Scientific Committee recently at estimates on how confident they were in their scientific advice. They said that the three best scientists that had been studying this skate for decades have upgraded their advice. It is to immediately destock salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour and do everything they possibly can to increase the oxygen load in that water if the skate is going to have a chance of survival. At first, the minister and the department were very clear. They released the advice that the minister wrote to the Tasmanian Premier at the time. The response—a predictable response from any Tasmanian state government—was: 'We will put the industry and jobs before the environment.' We've seen Labor senators in this place and Minister Watt go down to Tasmania recently and have a love-in with the salmon industry. How long has it taken? Suddenly, they are going wobbly at the knees about whether they will do what's required to prevent a species from going extinct.</para>
<para>I asked the minister in question time today: how many jobs on the west coast is the maugean skate worth? That's a very difficult question to answer, but it is the moral and political question that is before us. If we do get the predicted marine heatwaves which are well on the way, especially off the east coast of Tasmania, and we get the kind of events that we've seen in Macquarie Harbour—by the way, for those who don't know the history of Macquarie Harbour, when industrial expansion of the salmon industry occurred there in 2012, the Greens and others opposed it. We said that it is a very complex body of water and that we have no historical records of what may come down the line if we farm salmon in this harbour, which by the way adjoins a World Heritage area and has an endangered species in it, the maugean skate. But no-one listened to us.</para>
<para>Sure enough, the industry itself went to war over the lack of regulation by the Tasmanian state government. They took each other to court over the lack of regulation. The CEO of Huon Aquaculture at the time more or less said that this harbour is a ticking time bomb for the maugean skate. And what have we found? Nine years later, that is exactly what the scientific advice is telling us. Yet, with this clear-cut example of a government with a moral duty to do everything they possibly can to prevent this species from going extinct, they're starting to go wobbly at the knees. We're hearing in here: 'We're friends with the aquaculture industry. We're going to go for a consultation. We're going to do two months of consultation.' That will take us past the time that the scientists are telling us the skate is most at risk of an extinction. And we hear: 'We're going to have a captive breeding program. We're going to try to take the skate out of Macquarie Harbour and breed it in a tank.' God only knows where we're going to put it back because it's only found in one place on earth!</para>
<para>How ironic and how sad that Atlantic salmon, which belongs in the Atlantic, is displacing a creature that's been with us since the age of the dinosaurs. That's what 2023 is now, and we don't seem to care. The Greens care. I say to Tasmanians and Australians and anyone else around the world that, if you care about this species' imminent extinction, go on the minister's website. Consultation begins today for two months. Let the government know you want them to do everything they possibly can to save the maugean skate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PARLIAMENTARY ZONE</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>PARLIAMENTARY ZONE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Proposed Works</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In accordance with the provisions of the Parliament Act 1974, I present a proposal for works within the Parliamentary Zone, relating to the Senator Susan Ryan commemorative sculpture and associated works. I seek leave to give a notice of motion in relation to the proposal.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in accordance with section 5 of the <inline font-style="italic">Parliament Act 1974</inline>, the Senate approves the proposal by the National Capital Authority for capital works within the Parliamentary Zone relating to the Senator Susan Ryan commemorative sculpture and associated works.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice that on the next day of sitting I shall move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the provisions of paragraphs (5) to (8) of standing order 111 not apply to the following bills, allowing them to be considered during this period of sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Migration Amendment (Bridging Visa Conditions and Other Measures) Bill 2023.</para></quote>
<para>I also table statements of reasons justifying the need for the bills to be considered during these sittings and seek leave to have the statements incorporated into <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The statement</inline> <inline font-style="italic">s</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">STATEMENT OF REASONS FOR INTRODUCTION AND PASSAGE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">COUNTER-TERRORISM LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (PROHIBITED HATE SYMBOLS AND OTHER MEASURES) BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Purpose of the Bill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill would amend the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code Act 1995 </inline>(Criminal Code) to enhance the fitness-for-purpose of Australia's counter-terrorism laws in light of the evolving threat environment, particularly the threat of ideologically motivated violent extremism. The Bill would criminalise the public display and trade of Nazi and terrorist organisation symbols, the public performance of the Nazi salute and the use of a carriage service to deal with violent extremist material; expand the advocating terrorism offence in section 80.2C to include instructing on the doing of a terrorist act and praising the doing of a terrorist act in specified circumstances; increase the maximum penalty for the advocating terrorism offence from five to seven years' imprisonment; and extend the duration of terrorist organisation listings. Consequential amendments to other Commonwealth Acts are also included in the Bill to give effect to these reforms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for Urgency</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Current legislative settings need to be urgently refined to respond to the complex motivations, strategies and tactics of ideologically motivated violent extremists, including nationalist and racist extremists, who, intelligence agencies advise, pose a real and current threat to the community. The Director-General of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation expressed in his annual threat assessment on 21 February 2023 that "the reach of extremist content displayed in public and online means individuals are radicalising very quickly—in days and weeks—so the time between 'flash to bang' is shorter than ever". As attacks can occur with little to no warning and can be difficult to detect, it is critical that law enforcement is able to intervene at an early stage to prevent radicalisation, violence and activities that may incite them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's legal frameworks must be fit-for-purpose to ensure the community is resilient to these kinds of contemporary and emerging terrorist and violent extremist threats. Urgent reform is necessary to address the risk that those seeking to radicalise others will exploit further opportunities to mobilise vulnerable Australians to violence. The Bill would make critical changes to current legal settings to expand the ability of law enforcement to manage this risk and protect the community from those planning, preparing and inspiring others to do harm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed offences prohibiting the public display and trade of Nazi and terrorist organisation symbols, the public performance of the Nazi salute, and the use of a carriage service to deal with violent extremist material, are urgently required to provide law enforcement and prosecutorial agencies with more options to address new and evolving threats. They would ensure that law enforcement can intervene at an earlier stage in individuals' progress to violent radicalisation and provide greater opportunity for rehabilitation and disruption of violent extremist networks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Intelligence and law enforcement agencies have advised that the promotion and idealisation of extremist views is of increasing concern, particularly with respect to young people being radicalised online. Urgently expanding the advocating terrorism offence in response to this concern is appropriate given the vulnerability of Australian young people and the seriousness of the harm radicalised individuals may cause.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Urgent passage of these reforms would ensure law enforcement agencies can disrupt activities, including the radicalisation of individuals to violence, that are currently causing serious offence to Australia's community values and endangering the public.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(Circulated by authority of the Attorney-General)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">STATEMENT OF REASONS FOR INTRODUCTION AND PASSAGE    </para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">IN THE 2023 SPRING SITTINGS</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ECONOMIC INCLUSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Purpose of the Bill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will establish the independent Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee (the Committee) as a statutory body to provide advice to Government (through the Minister for Social Services and the Treasurer) on economic inclusion including policy settings, systems and structures, and the adequacy, effectiveness and sustainability of income support payments ahead of every Federal Budget.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for Urgency</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has committed to establishing the Committee as a statutory body by the end of 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(Circulated by authority of the Minister for Social Services)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">STATEMENT OF REASONS FOR INTRODUCTION AND PASSAGE    </para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">IN THE 2023 SPRING SITTINGS</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">MIGRATION AMENDMENT (BRIDGING VISA CONDITIONS AND OTHER MEASURES) BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Purpose of the Bill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The purpose of the Bill is to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958 </inline>to ensure that non-citizens released from immigration detention following the decision of the High Court in <inline font-style="italic">NZYQ v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs </inline>(S28/2003) on 8 November 2023 continue to be subject to appropriate visa conditions on any bridging visa granted to them following their release.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will introduce new criminal offences (with mandatory minimum sentences) that can apply to Subclass 070 (Bridging (Removal Pending)) visa (BVR) holders if they breach the requirements of a visa condition of any of the following kinds:</para></quote>
<list>a visa condition requiring that the person not perform any work, or participate in any regular organised activity, involving more than incidental contact with another person who is a minor or other vulnerable person;</list>
<list>a visa condition requiring that the person not go within a particular distance of a school, childcare centre or day care centre;</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also introduce a new criminal offence (with a mandatory minimum sentence) applying to BVR holders who have been convicted of an offence involving violence or sexual assault who are subject to a visa condition requiring that the person not contact the victim of an offence or their family.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also provide authorised officers, including state and territory officials and contracted service providers, with clearer powers in relation to electronic monitoring. This will ensure that there is an ability to install, use and maintain electronic monitoring devices and monitor persons subject to monitoring. The Bill will also enable authorised officers to collect, use and disclose information for specific purposes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for Urgency</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill requires urgent passage in the 2023 Spring sittings following the High Court's decision in <inline font-style="italic">NZYQ v Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs </inline>(S28/2003). The amendments of the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958 </inline>are necessary to support the effective management of non-citizens released from immigration detention following this decision.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(Circulated by authority of the Minister for Immigration, Citizenship and Multicultural Affairs)</para></quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Davey, pursuant to notice given on the last day of sitting in relation to the production of documents, I now withdraw general business notice of motion No. 423 standing in the name of Senator Davey.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>62</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senators Cox and Faruqi from 4 to 7 December 2023, for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to the following senators for personal reasons:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Senators Ciccone, Dodson and White from 4 to 7 December 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Senator O'Neill for today.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to the following senators for personal reasons:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Senator McDonald for 30 November 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Senator Fawcett for 4 December 2023; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Senator Paterson from 4 to 7 December 2023.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following general business orders of the day be considered this week at the time for private senators' bills:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No. 12 United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples Bill 2022—on Wednesday 6 December 2023; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No. 42 Defence Capability Assurance and Oversight Bill 2023—on Thursday 7 December 2023.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>62</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>63</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee, Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reporting Date</title>
            <page.no>63</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reporting Date</title>
            <page.no>63</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the time for the presentation of the report of the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee on the provisions of the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and the Nature Repair Market (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2023 be 4 December 2023.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Only a few days ago, interestingly, it appeared there was only one party in this chamber that was supportive of this legislation, and it is interesting to see there's been a change. We were going to bring back the report on this legislation in April, but now we're going to bring it back today. It makes me wonder why. I wonder exactly what has changed in those few days since we had that arrangement where we were going to be deliberating on these important pieces of legislation until April.</para>
<para>It's important to remember that nearly every stakeholder that came to this committee condemned the legislation. At the very least, they said we should be leaving this legislation until we deal with the proper EPBC reforms: get the framework in place first and then deal with everything else afterwards. So what has changed? I have a sneaking suspicion a deal has been done. I will be very interested to see over the coming days exactly what has been done, because it is bad legislation. We remain opposed to it. We should be having the committee report out until April of next year, for proper scrutiny, but instead it appears a deal has been done.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have one minute with leave.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government's motion to rush this inquiry report through today, more than four months earlier than the committee requested and the Senate agreed, is a dodgy, dirty deal. The Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 is a deceptive, arrogant title. It's really about the federal government financially coercing farmers to lock up their land or walk off it to satisfy the dictates of foreign, unelected climate change bureaucrats, like COP28. No wonder the government wants to cut short the inquiry into this bill and rush the bill through this week. All of the climate rent seekers are happy to support this bill because, eventually, it will lead to money in their pockets from the people of Australia. While farmers are paid to lock up their land, a lack of agricultural production will cause untold human misery both in Australia and overseas. One Nation will be opposing this rushed dirty deal. Give the committee the time it originally requested to make its report.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the motion moved by Senator Chisholm seeking a variation to a reporting date of a committee be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:50] <br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>25</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Research Council</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>64</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) order for the production of documents no. 371, agreed to by the Senate on 7 November 2023, relating to Australian Research Council (ARC) review reports has not been fully complied with,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Minister for Education, in his response to the order, made a claim of public interest immunity on the basis that the ARC financial sustainability report has been used to inform ongoing Cabinet deliberations and to ensure Cabinet remains an appropriate forum for informed consideration of policy advice, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) it is accepted that deliberations of the Executive Council and of the Cabinet should be able to be conducted in secrecy so as to preserve the freedom of deliberation of those bodies, however, this ground relates only to disclosure of deliberations; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) rejects the public interest immunity claim made by the Minister for Education, noting that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the disclosure of the ARC financial sustainability report does not constitute a disclosure of deliberations of Cabinet, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Government has not outlined why the ARC financial sustainability report itself, as opposed to the Cabinet's deliberations on the report, cannot be disclosed, including how disclosure of the report itself could harm the public interest; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) requires the Minister representing the Minister for Education to comply with the order by no later than 10 am on 5 December 2023.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the motion moved by Senator Askew, standing in the name of Senator Henderson, regarding compliance with an order for the production of documents of the Australian Research Council, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:56] <br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>65</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>65</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 10 am on 5 December 2023, a copy of the final report on the Review to Inform a Better and Fairer Education System provided to the Minister for Education.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will not be supporting this motion. It is a carbon copy of one which was brought before the Senate earlier this month and was voted against. The review report it seeks was agreed to by the Education Ministers Meeting. The report is made to all of the country's education ministers. Therefore, the government cannot release the report without the agreement of the education ministers across the country. The report will be released publicly.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is on the motion moved by Senator Askew standing in the name of Senator Henderson, regarding the order for the production of documents—<inline font-style="italic">Review to inform a better and fairer education system</inline>.</para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:01]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>66</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to revisit general business notice of motion No. 419 and seek a recommittal of that vote, because there was a pairing error in our papers. Could we do that?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Does everyone understand what has been asked? Leave has been sought to recommit 419. Is leave granted?</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll put the question again. This is 419, and that concerns compliance with an order for the production of documents relating to the Australian Research Council. I put the question.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Veterans' Affairs</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>66</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Veterans' Affairs, by no later than midday on 5 December 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the current number of allocated and unallocated claims across all legislation under the Veterans' Affairs portfolio;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the current number of claims allocated to staff that are not able to address the claims as they are on long term leave, on higher duties, working in another area or are otherwise unable to address the claims;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the current number of claims that have been allocated but remain unaddressed or pending; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the number of claims since 1 February 2023 that have been rolled into, consolidated or merged with other claims.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<para>Leave is granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm advised that some of the information the senator has requested does not exist within a particular document or as information readily captured by the Department of Veterans' Affairs. The power of the Senate to compel the creation of documents by the executive branch rather than just the production of existing documents remains a contested one. The alternative mechanisms by which the senator could request this information include questions on notice or the budget estimates process or a private briefing.</para>
<para>It is noted that the senator has already requested very similar information through the recent estimates, which is due to be tabled in the near future.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Intelligence and Security Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senators Cash and Paterson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, following the passage of the bill, the following matter be referred to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security for inquiry and report by 14 March 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The operation, effectiveness and implications of the amendments made by the Australian Citizenship Amendment (Citizenship Repudiation) Bill 2023.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the motion moved by Senator Askew, standing in the names of Senators Cash and Paterson, regarding a reference to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:08]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>43</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) order for the production of documents no. 407, agreed by the Senate on 28 November 2023, requiring the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government to table documents relating to the final report of the <inline font-style="italic">Independent strategic review of the Infrastructure Investment Program, August 2023</inline>,by no later than at the conclusion of question time on Wednesday, 29 November 2023, has not been complied with,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Minister, in her response to the order, made a claim of public interest immunity on the basis that it would adversely affect Commonwealth-state relations; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Senate rejects the public interest immunity claim made by the Minister, noting that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) when a claim of public interest immunity is made on the basis that it would damage relations between the Commonwealth and states, the agreement of the states to disclose the information should be sought and they should be invited to give reasons for any objection, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) no such agreement has been sought following the making of the Senate order, nor has the Senate been advised of any objections from the states or territories;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the Senate requires the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government to comply with the order in full by no later than midday on 5 December 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) if the order has not been complied with in full by midday on 5 December 2023, the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government be required to attend the Senate after motions to take note of answers that day, to provide an explanation, of not more than 5 minutes, of the failure to comply with the order;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) any senator may move to take note of the explanation required by paragraph (d); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) any motion under paragraph (e) may be debated for no longer than 30 minutes, have precedence over all other business until determined, and senators may speak to the motion for not more than 10 minutes each.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Social Services</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Liddle, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Social Services, by no later than 10 am on Tuesday, 5 December 2023, details of the funding that has been provided to, and workers that have been employed in, frontline services and community work to support people experiencing family, domestic and sexual violence following the Government's announcement on 25 October 2022, including:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) how much of the $169.4 million that was promised over 4 years from 2022-23, has been distributed to each state and territory, up to 30 November 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) details of the decision process to distribute funding and identifying who receives funding in each jurisdiction;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the number of frontline workers who have been employed in each state and territory, up to 30 November 2023, including the postcode in which each worker is employed;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the start date for the employment of each frontline worker who has been employed; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the pay rate and grade for:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) each of the 500 frontline workers who will be employed, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) each of the frontline workers employed up to 30 November 2023.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is the motion moved by Senator Askew, standing in the name of Senator Liddle, regarding an order for the production of documents.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:14]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>38</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>15</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</title>
        <page.no>69</page.no>
        <type>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Security (Administration) (Enhanced Income Management Regime—Commonwealth Referrals And Exemptions) Determination 2023, Social Security (Administration) (Enhanced Income Management Regime—State Referrals) Determination 2023</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Disallowance</title>
            <page.no>69</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note this disallowance from Senator Rice, and I enjoyed engaging in the Senate committee process when the legislation to transition people off the BasicsCard was before the Senate. We heard from a broad range of stakeholders. The overwhelming majority did not want a cashless debit card imposed on people or on communities. However, there were some people who were of the view that they want it as a tool to be able to make decisions for themselves in their communities and to have the option of putting community members onto some sort of cashless debit card arrangement.</para>
<para>People in the ACT have made it very clear to me that they do not support compulsory income management. It is not something that they want to see imposed on communities across the country. It seems that there is an overwhelming amount of academic research and lived experience showing that this punitive legislation does not lead to the outcomes that are intended.</para>
<para>While I oppose mandatory income management, I'm concerned that the government has not put in the necessary support services needed if this disallowance were to succeed. These support services are crucial. We heard a lot about them during the Senate committee process from people who came from all over the country representing many remote communities. They talked about the lack of services, and the need for more support when it comes to income management and when it comes to dealing with a whole range of people. Clearly, transitioning people from the BasicsCard to the enhanced income management was not the abolition of compulsory income management that Labor promised.</para>
<para>I call on the government, once again, to outline their process to transition people off mandatory income management and to outline the services and supports that will be given to those people.</para>
<para>While I am against mandatory income management, I have concerns that this sort of disallowance will lead to unintended consequences. As I said, there simply aren't the services in place. I guess my vote on this is a little bit nuanced; I support the intention of this but I can't support something that will potentially leave people in the lurch without a solid plan from the government about what services the people will receive and what the transitional arrangements will be to come good on the government's election commitment.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Rice for the disallowance of instruments be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:25]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Polley)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF URGENCY</title>
        <page.no>70</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF URGENCY</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Middle East</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received the following letter from Senator McKim today:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today the Australian Greens propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the end of the truce in Gaza and the intensification of the State of Israel's bombing in Southern Gaza, the Australian Government must call for an immediate permanent ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and political prisoners and for an urgent end to the siege and invasion of Gaza."</para></quote>
<para>Is consideration of the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the end of the truce in Gaza and the intensification of the State of Israel's bombing in Southern Gaza, the Australian Government must call for an immediate permanent ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and political prisoners and for an urgent end to the siege and invasion of Gaza.</para></quote>
<para>On Friday, with the expiry of the temporary truce, the State of Israel's military recommenced its offensive in Gaza. As of this morning, 15,523 Palestinians have been killed and 41,316 wounded since 7 October. More than 700 deaths have been recorded in Gaza in the past 24 hours alone. Thousands lie under the rubble, and 85 per cent of the population of Gaza is now confirmed as displaced.</para>
<para>Many of Gaza's 2.3 million people are now crammed into the south, after the State of Israel ordered civilians to leave the north in the early days of the invasion. There were no fewer than 127 incidents involving explosive weapons within the so-called safe zone in the first week after the State of Israel's warning to move south on 14 October.</para>
<para>And now the State of Israel is continuing to push civilians from the north to the south and yet, at the same time, they are dropping leaflets indicating that their next target is Khan Yunis, a city in the south of Gaza. This Senate can be under no illusion: nowhere is safe in Gaza. These are the words of the UNICEF representatives speaking to the world in the past 48 hours: 'This is the worst bombardment of the war right now in the south of Gaza. I have seen massive child casualties. We have a final warning to save children and our collective conscience. I feel like I am running out of ways to describe the horrors hitting children here. I feel like I am almost failing in my ability to convey the endless killing of children here.'</para>
<para>People in Gaza are literally begging for governments like this Labor government to notice their humanity. They are begging for their right to survive. They are begging to have access to and recognition of their basic human rights and the necessities that we all take for granted. They are fighting for their own lives while trying to share what is happening in Gaza all so that people in positions of power, like Australia's Prime Minister and foreign minister, may take from their suffering a little bit of their courage and their humanity and finally call for a permanent ceasefire.</para>
<para>This entrapment of innocent lives within a small space which the State of Israel's military continues to perpetrate only to then bomb those civilians can have only one result: mass civilian casualties. The dehumanising language that many senior ministers in the State of Israel have used can only further the understanding that, to them, this is acceptable. Dropping leaflets and giving evacuation warnings are offensive distractions from the reality that the policies of the State of Israel have no regard to the right of Palestinians to live.</para>
<para>Every member of this Senate knows the basic truth that, in Gaza, there is nowhere safe to go. The only choice left to us is whether to speak that truth or hide from it. The Greens call on the Senate once again to engage with that truth and to speak it, to uphold humanitarian law and to listen to those UN experts who are calling on the global community to recognise the very real risk of genocide and of ethnic cleansing in Palestine at the hands of the Israeli state. We must speak truth in this moment, in the name of humanity, and call for a ceasefire now.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am going to read out this matter of public urgency that has been lodged by the Greens:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Given the end of the truce in Gaza and the intensification of the State of Israel's bombing in Southern Gaza, the Australian Government must call for an immediate permanent ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and political prisoners and for an urgent end to the siege and invasion of Gaza</para></quote>
<para>This is where the Greens are at their absolute worst. The ceasefire came about because Israel sat down and tried to do a deal with Hamas for the release of hostages, over 240 hostages who were kidnapped by Hamas on 7 October, a date that will live in infamy for the State of Israel and for all of those who believe in free Liberal democracies, when terrorists pushed through the border and invaded Israel, a free country, and murdered over 1,200 free people living in Israel.</para>
<para>Not only was there murder and assaults; we saw sexualised violence being used against Israelis, where people were sexually assaulted and then murdered, where people were raped and then murdered. But you don't hear the Greens talking about the sexualised violence that was used against Israeli citizens.</para>
<para>The ceasefire ended because Hamas broke the terms of the ceasefire by failing to release the list of names of hostages, and then started bombing, again, innocent Israeli citizens. The only way to end this war is for Hamas, who are a terrorist organisation, to release the hostages. The release of some hostages is just a tiny reminder of the torture that Hamas has inflicted on hundreds of families, on millions of Israelis, on hundreds of millions of people around this world who believe in freedom and liberty and who are suffering because of the actions of a terrorist organisation.</para>
<para>It is so sad that, in Australia, we have supporters of Hamas, like those people who invaded the hotel in Melbourne last week, targeting the families of hostages—families who were in this building last week, families who were out the front of this Australian Parliament House, families who met with members and senators to talk about their stories such as the mum whose son was murdered. These Hamas supporters in Australia think it is perfectly acceptable to invade a hotel and attack people through that invasion.</para>
<para>We use this word 'antisemitism', and I'm going to call it out for what it is. Antisemitism does not get down to the nuts and bolts of what is ascribed to antisemitism. If you are antisemitic you are anti-Jew, and we've got to call that out. The actions of those protesters in Melbourne last week were anti-Jewish. The actions of Hamas are anti-Jewish. But we shouldn't be surprised that the Greens are like this. We should not forget that Senator Faruqi, the Deputy Leader of the Greens in this chamber, put on Instagram a photo of her standing beside someone holding a sign saying, 'Keep the world clean of Jews'. This is the Greens for you—a party who thinks it's acceptable to put signs like that on social media. Shame on the Greens!</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Resume your seat, Senator McGrath. Senator Waters?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi took down that photograph and apologised for it being posted. I think the record needs to accurately reflect what occurred.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think that has been noted previously in the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi put a sign up on her Instagram saying, 'Clean the world of Jews'. Shame on the Greens! Shame on Senator Faruqi!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McCarthy.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Resume your seat, Senator McCarthy. Senator Steele-John?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Steele-John</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath just uttered the most disgusting accusation of myself and my colleagues in relation to antisemitism. I can't repeat what he just said. He must withdraw. I have never heard anything like that in my life.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, I was just getting ready to move the call and—Senator McGrath?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGrath</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McCarthy.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, no, no.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath, leave the chamber in silence.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave the chamber in silence.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I call on all senators to remember that our words in this place matter and that they impact all of those Australians out there who are feeling very mixed feelings, from both sides of this horrific conflict that's taking place in the Middle East. It does not do this Senate any good to bring in here that kind of discussion and personal attacks on other senators.</para>
<para>Australia deeply regrets that hostilities have resumed in Gaza and the immense human suffering that continues. The recent pause allowed for the release of 105 hostages, the protection of civilians and a much-needed increase in critical humanitarian supplies at such an important time. I thank Senator McKim for bringing this motion on, because we need to be able to continue to recognise what is going on in the Middle East. Australia wants to see this support of humanitarian supplies continue. We continue to call for hostages to be released, for sustained and unimpeded humanitarian access and, of course, for the protection of civilian lives—men, women and children. We are urging all parties to exercise restraint, respect international humanitarian law and protect civilians, and we must ultimately work towards a long-term, enduring peace. The government has called for Israel to honour its commitment to uphold international law and protect innocent lives. We've called on Israel to protect hospitals, medical staff and patients, and we have said Israel must conduct its military operations lawfully. We also call for safe, unimpeded and sustained humanitarian access and safe passage for civilians. Even before these recent hostilities resumed, suffering continued, particularly in Gaza. UNICEF have said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Gaza has become a graveyard for thousands of children. It's a living hell for everyone else.</para></quote>
<para>As this conflict continues, we must remember a child is a child and they should be protected, no matter who or where they are.</para>
<para>The peace we all want to see requires a two-state solution, with Israelis and Palestinians living securely and prosperously within internationally recognised borders. Australia has been working with countries, and I commend Senator Wong for the work that she's doing in this area. She's working with those countries that have influence in the region to help protect and support civilians, to help prevent the conflict from spreading and to reinforce the need for the just and enduring peace that all of us want.</para>
<para>I'd also like to just reach out to my constituents in the Northern Territory. I've sat down and met with members from the Palestinian community and also from the Jewish community. I know how distressing this is, and we all do. I have no doubt that every single senator and every member of parliament has heard stories from people that they're close to and also from their own constituents, and I thank them for the work that they're doing to try to bring about greater peace and understanding in both of those areas. Thank you. We are certainly making sure that our government is listening to the calls that you are making in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>We all understand how distressing these events are. There are people who've lost family, people who've lost friends and people who feel so deeply about these issues, and these are traumatic images, with the loss of life. We must all work to ensure that distress does not turn into hate and anger. There is, of course, no place for violence, antisemitism, racism or Islamophobia here in Australia. I would remind senators that we have our own domestic issues here too as far as these issues are concerned. Our language matters. The way we pursue peace in our own country, amongst the many diverse groups that we have, is absolutely critical, and it's the same thing that we want to see in the Middle East.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to support this urgency motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Given the end of the truce in Gaza and the intensification of the State of Israel's bombing in Southern Gaza, the Australian Government must call for an immediate permanent ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and political prisoners and for an urgent end to the siege and invasion of Gaza.</para></quote>
<para>Over the past eight weeks the realities of this humanitarian catastrophe have been brought to us by journalists and filmmakers on the ground, persevering through communications blackouts, relentless air strikes and deep personal loss to document the devastation, usually via social media platforms. Seven hundred civilians in Gaza have been killed just since the brief humanitarian pause collapsed over the weekend. With this horrific onslaught continuing, those same journalists are now posting messages of resignation to the reality of the danger all Palestinians in Gaza are facing and the selective ignorance of the world to their plight.</para>
<para>Bisan Owda, a young Palestinian filmmaker who has started each day by telling the world, 'This is Bisan. I'm still alive,' posted yesterday:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I no longer have any hope of survival like I had at the beginning … and I am certain that I will die in the next few weeks or maybe days.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Message to friends: Thank you and the supporters around the world. You have been compassionate and very strong. We ask you not to lose hope, even if the world seems completely unfair and your efforts have not yet resulted in a ceasefire.</para></quote>
<para>Hamza Wael, a press photographer in Gaza, posted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">58 days of documenting and publishing everything that happens … and no one moved. Do you need another 58 days to confirm?</para></quote>
<para>Just a few days before she was able to leave Gaza, Palestinian journalist Plestia Alaqad posted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I used to always wear my press vest and helmet … but lately I stopped wearing them. I don't feel safe, but especially when wearing the press vest and helmet.</para></quote>
<para>Journalist Motaz Azaiza says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The stage of risking everything to bring you the news has ended. The stage of trying to survive has begun. Our situation is more dire than you can imagine.</para></quote>
<para>Some 15½ thousand people, including 61 journalists, have lost their lives in this conflict so far. The Committee to Protect Journalists also reports multiple assaults, threats, attempts at censorship and killings of family members. These are the colleagues of people in our press gallery who've lost their lives trying to tell the truth about the atrocities that have been committed.</para>
<para>We stand with the brave journalists of Palestine and the occupied territories, we stand with press freedom and we stand against the war crimes of Israel. The Australian government must call for an immediate permanent ceasefire, for the unconditional release of all hostages and political prisoners, and for an urgent end to the siege and invasion of Gaza. Please, call for a permanent ceasefire.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I join the calls of my Greens colleagues in this chamber and the millions around the world who are calling for an urgent and permanent ceasefire. Nothing could be as urgent as ending the senseless killing of the people of Gaza. I want to recognise the extraordinary resilience of the people in Gaza, particularly the journalists who, while their world is being destroyed around them, are telling the story of the Palestinian people. They are empowering calls for a ceasefire by showing in real time the horrific atrocities being carried out against them, their families and neighbourhoods.</para>
<para>These brave journalists are now known by their first names by many of us around the world who follow to understand what's happening on the ground in Gaza in the face of mainstream media who are too often disappointing at best. Bisan Owda usually begins her videos saying, 'I'm still alive.' She's a filmmaker and storyteller who has stepped up in this awful moment to raise the voices of her people. Just a few hours ago she posted a video of artillery trails in the sky above where she is in the south of Gaza, the supposedly safe area.</para>
<para>Plestia Alaqad tells us the stories of not only the war but also the children in her neighbourhood, the longing for the time before the violence and her love of Gaza. She has stood in Gaza and has shown the impact of not just the bombs but the flooding of the temporary camps, the lack of food, the danger as the weather turns colder and the psychological effects of hearing bombs and bombs for weeks on end.</para>
<para>Motaz Azaiza is on the ground after attacks, often placing himself in very real danger—as if anywhere in Gaza were not dangerous. He talks in his videos about the shame of filming his fellow Gazans during their most devastating moments, but he knows the power of truth and that what is happening needs to be shown to the world.</para>
<para>Hind Khoudary often tweets bombing raids through the night, and she asked: 'Where should people go? Flee where? Nowhere is safe in Gaza.' Her house was destroyed, and she's had to report the breaking news of her colleagues dying in real time. We saw Wael Dahdouh, the bureau chief of Al Jazeera, being told on air that his family had been killed in an Israeli air strike. We saw him continuing his work, telling the world what was happening even in the middle of that impossible despair. His family had moved to the Nuseirat refugee camp in southern Gaza after listening to the Israeli Defence Force warnings to leave the north, and they were still killed.</para>
<para>I know many in Gaza despair at not being heard around the world, but the world is listening, even if our so-called leadership are not. What these journalists are doing is so critically important. It's more than just the number of bombs, cities targeted; they show what really is going on. They are things that we should never have to see and that no-one should suffer: a child having limbs amputated without anaesthetic; an older Palestinian woman, displaced from home in 1948 during the Nakba, now displaced again; the aftermath of bombings that have flattened entire neighbourhoods. They say that in war truth is the first casualty. So far, 61 journalists and media workers have been confirmed dead—54 Palestinian, four Israeli and three Lebanese.</para>
<para>Journalists are not the only heroes, of course. I think also of the doctors who've refused to leave their patients, the taxi drivers operating as ambulance drivers, the aid workers desperately trying to save lives, the bakers feeding the hungry from the few bakeries still standing, and the parents and grandparents trying to protect their kids and grandkids. In the face of this, anything less from a political leader than calling for an immediate and permanent ceasefire is complicity in these ongoing killings. Ceasefire now.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We need an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza now. Latest reports are that 15,523 Palestinians have been killed and 41,316 wounded since 7 October. It is estimated that seventy per cent of the people killed have been women, children and the elderly. With the Israeli government vowing to continue the attack with 'increasing force', the number of innocent people killed will, awfully, continue to rise. There are 1.5 million displaced Palestinians, most of whom are living in overcrowded shelters, with poor access to hygiene facilities and safe water. Evacuees are living in these conditions while facing the threat of air strikes, with the knowledge that, if they are wounded, adequate health care is virtually non-existent.</para>
<para>How can it be that the world, including Australia, is standing by and condoning such horrors? How can it be that our government is effectively saying that international human rights law doesn't apply to the Israeli government? The IDF have bombed hospitals on the pretence that the hospitals were hiding major Hamas terror operations. When that hasn't been the case, they've just shrugged their shoulders at having committed the most atrocious war crimes. Just yesterday, Israel continued its bombing of the Jabalia refugee camp. Local media reported, 'A residential square containing at least 300 people, half of whom are children, was just completely flattened to the ground.'</para>
<para>It is so distressing. I believed that we were a country that believed in the international rules based order, that we wanted to see a just and lasting peace in Israel and Palestine. But clearly we are not. We are clearly joined at the hip with US imperialism, the Israeli occupation, and Israel's persecution and illegal killing of Palestinians. The only way to move towards a just and lasting peace is to end the war. If the Australian government believed in a just and lasting peace, they would be exerting every effort for an immediate and permanent ceasefire in Gaza now, and they'd be advocating for and supporting the delivery of unrestricted humanitarian relief.</para>
<para>I want to finish by sharing part of a statement from Bisan, a Palestinian journalist living in Gaza. She says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I no longer have any hope of survival like I did at the beginning of this genocide, and I am certain I will die in the next few weeks or maybe even days.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I suffer nightmares that so closely resemble reality I can no longer differentiate between reality and dreams.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am a community activist who lived in the fantasy that the world was free and just, and I sought to bring rights not only to my people but to all peoples across the world.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The world approves, supports, legislates and finances the genocide we are being subjected to. My message to the world: You are not innocent of what is happening to us, we will not forgive you and we will not forget, and, even if we die, history will not forget.</para></quote>
<para>Bisan ends on a message of hope, thanking friends and supporters around the world, and she asks us to not lose hope and to keep fighting for a ceasefire, and that's exactly what we will do. I say to the Labor government, by not calling for an immediate and ongoing ceasefire, you are complicit in this humanitarian catastrophe, these blatant breaches of international law. We will not forget that, and we will not forgive you. Israel's relentless and inhumane attacks must end.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The deplorable actions of the government of Israel in Gaza cannot be understated, from the indiscriminate airstrikes on civilian areas to the ruthless destruction of homes and the shattering of countless innocent lives. The immediate and moral solution is a permanent enduring ceasefire, a halt to the bloodshed, a chance for dialogue and a chance for peace. Yet the narrative we hear from the media in Australia and from the major political parties in Australia is one of deliberate, bewildering complexity, a narrative that is designed to obscure the truth about the horrors that are unfolding in Gaza.</para>
<para>This is not a complicated geopolitical puzzle. The stark and clear reality is that innocent people are being slaughtered by the war crimes of the Israeli government. Our government's response should be equally stark and clear. Anything less than an absolute demand for a permanent and enduring ceasefire is playing straight into the hands of the government of Israel, who have lobbied for exactly the kind of equivocation that we are getting from the Australian government.</para>
<para>How many innocent people need to be slaughtered, how many babies need to be mutilated, how many children need to be buried alive before Labor will call for a permanent enduring ceasefire? The failure to demand that ceasefire is an act of complicity.</para>
<para>The acceptance of Zionist sponsored junkets to Israel by journalists and politicians from this country skews the narrative and compromises integrity. The Zionist lobby's playbook is to use the media to attack and undermine pro- Palestine figures here in Australia in a bid to cloud the real issue, which is the destruction of Gaza and the slaughter of the people who live there. The tactics of Zionist lobbies in stifling legitimate debate are egregious and deeply undemocratic.</para>
<para>Voices within Israel itself are raising concerns and criticisms that if they were echoed in Australia would lead to reprimand or targeting by elements of the pro-Israel lobby in this country. The deliberate conflation of any criticism of the state of Israel or the government of Israel's actions with anti-Semitism is grossly intellectually dishonest and deliberately designed to obscure the truth. By labelling legitimate critique and calls for accountability as anti-Semitic, the real and serious issue of anti-Semitism is trivialised.</para>
<para>We can do better, colleagues. We can do better in this place, we can do better in the media and we can do better in the national conversation about what is happening in Gaza. But, whatever we do, we should stand up with moral clarity and we should demand a permanent, enduring ceasefire. In the name of humanity: cease fire now.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator McKim be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:04]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Sterle)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>10</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</title>
        <page.no>76</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Nuclear Energy</title>
          <page.no>76</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A letter has been received from Senator Cadell:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose that the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The need for Australia to urgently respond to the Declaration to Triple Nuclear Energy Capacity by 2050 announced at COP28 and adopt a technology neutral approach to transitioning the energy market while maintaining affordability and reliability as part of Australia's commitment to achieve net zero emissions by 2050, consistent with our partners and allies who recognise that, as President Macron says, "nuclear energy is a source that is necessary to succeed for carbon neutrality in 2050".</para></quote>
<para>Is consideration of the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Over the weekend, in the lead-up to COP28 in Dubai, we've seen people coming together about the ways to net zero. We saw a pledge signed by 22 countries—18 nuclear and four non-nuclear—to triple the amount of nuclear output because it is required to get to net zero by 2050. We on this side are not standing here saying, 'Let's run out there and put government money into nuclear reactors tomorrow,' or something like that. What we're saying is that, while the Rewiring the Nation plan, the renewable energy plan, of this government focuses on renewables, we are in the 'all of the above' boat. We are saying, 'If it works, let's do it. Let's not rule it out. Let's rule things in and see what the market wants. Let's take away subsidies that pick winners. Let's do all of those sorts of things and have a look at what happens.'</para>
<para>We heard numbers in an earlier debate here about the massive cost that nuclear would have. That's under the GenCost model from 2017 that can't be looked at. It can't be looked at. It cannot be examined. If you look at the IEA, the International Energy Agency—which is quoted as the bible by many in here for the things we must do and the things we must cut and the time we must cut them by—the IEA lists nuclear as one of the lowest levelised costs of electricity amongst all in their 2020 studies. It has a lower low cost, a much lower high cost and a lower average cost than most things we are talking about—certainly, than rooftop solar and commercial solar, and somewhere around utility-scale solar. So what we're saying is, 'Bring off the handbrake.'</para>
<para>The stupidity is that there is a nuclear reactor in Sydney. It is less than a kilometre away from the houses in Sierra Road that sell for $1½ million and above. It has a generator as part of the entire network, but it cannot be connected because it is illegal. Australia's nuclear reactor runs off coal power at the moment because it is illegal to put that generator on in Australia. That is the stupidity of our policy.</para>
<para>The other part of it is this: what are Rewiring the Nation and this race to renewables really costing us? We hear it's about $100 billion just for the power lines, without generating a single megawatt of power. That's just to carry the power from where we do build them, for other hundreds of billions of dollars, to where we need the power—in the cities.</para>
<para>When we are talking about these numbers, the other thing that comes through is this. We were up at New South Wales's biggest electricity user that long ago. It was this month. They require 950 megawatts of power, 12 per cent of the state's power usage. But when they are going to market with the net zero plans they can't buy 950. Because of the intermittency of solar and renewables, they have to go to the market for three gigawatts, three times the size of the power usage, just to be able run their plant.</para>
<para>The people of Australia deserve to have a debate away from the dishonesty, hype and self-interest on what we can do to get to net zero by 2050. The world has spoken: nuclear has to be part of that mix. The disciples of John Kerry say, 'Follow the science, follow the science, follow the science.' The science says, 'Get those atoms moving.' It says, 'Get them buzzing and get some power.' Three times the amount of nuclear energy to get to net zero is required. What's more, they are calling on the World Bank, which Australia funds, to contribute loans to build nuclear energy. So, under this policy, we could be in the perverse position of funding nuclear energy in other countries but not being able to do it ourselves.</para>
<para>If nuclear is as expensive and unfeasible as we hear, the market will not pick it up. The market will stay away from it. But we see the amount of subsidy, effort and taxpayer money going into Rewiring the Nation. It's $20 billion of $100 billion. We see the subsidies going into every plant you see. We see the destruction of farming land, habitats and environmental lands by all of these wind factories and solar factories. We see it with all of these offshore wind farms in whale areas. That is the real cost. What is the productive value of that land forever that we are losing? That is not factored in. They call them wind farms. Well, let's start calling mines coal farms or carbon farms. Honesty is required, and we need it now. <inline font-style="italic">(Time </inline><inline font-style="italic">expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, it's delightful—through you, Chair—to be here again having this conversation that we have had many, many times before. It's like a little routine. It's a bit like 'transmission Tuesday'; we are now having 'nuclear Monday'. This might actually help us unpick some of the confusion that seems to be around. On the one hand, we hear significant amounts of talk that, 'No, we're not talking about large nuclear reactor power plants; we're talking about these small modular reactors.' So I think the confusion here needs to be unpacked a little. The small modular reactors are the ones that are not yet commercially viable. So that is slightly problematic.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What about offshore wind?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will just mention that I did listen to Senator Cadell in silence, and I'm now being heckled from across the chamber. Over and over again, Senator Cadell and his colleagues have talked about how the small modular reactors are cheap, reliable and popular. I'm not sure that any of that's true. I frequently am respectfully disagreeing with Senator Cadell because the projects have not been proven to be commercially viable and yet, in Senator Cadell's contribution just now, he said we should get rid of all the subsidies. We know that new technology frequently will require some form of government assistance to get it off the ground, whether that be some form of financial treatment, loans et cetera, to enable companies to bring off the technology. But I think ripping off the bandaid and letting the market rip may end up with us in a situation which would lead directly off what the coalition government did for almost a decade, which was precisely nothing. They left us with announcements of coal powered stations being closed down and nothing to replace them.</para>
<para>I would like to say that we intend to keep the lights on. We intend to make sure that the power needs of this country are satisfied. We will not just stand around and ignore the fact that we need to ensure that we have enough supply, unlike those opposite, who did nothing for an extraordinarily long time and have only become very irate about this issue and started calling for new structures since they've been in opposition.</para>
<para>One classic example that a number of my colleagues from across the chamber have talked about is the NuScale development, a small modular reactor in America—cutting-edge, the brand-new normal. That project was cancelled just last month because of cost blowouts and technical issues. That was after two decades of trying to get this technology to work, and it hasn't come off yet—proving that this is not commercially viable; it's just not, at this point in time. So, not only did the project cost the American taxpayer $930 million for a project that's now just scrapped, but also as a company they didn't fare terribly well, with the value of shares in their company falling by 30 per cent in after-market trade. And that was on top of a 70 per cent decline in the year to date, to the point at which they closed down the project. If your only hope is the small modular reactors then you probably need to expand out a little bit, because that is not going to work at this point in time.</para>
<para>So, nine long years and no meaningful energy policy, and now just a frantic attempt to convince everyone that nuclear is the way forward, when what you are proposing is small modular reactors, and they are the ones that are not yet viable. If you're actually talking about a large nuclear reactor, a large energy plant, then you need to consider the water needs of those kinds of plants and where you're going to put it. We know that the social licence is still not there in this country for nuclear. What is the pathway to address that? And why would we do that when we have an abundance of wind and an abundance of sunshine and renewable energy is the cheapest form of energy that we have available to us? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of nuclear energy in Australia. Chris Bowen is saying it would take many years to establish nuclear energy in Australia, as if this is an excuse for not doing it. My answer to that is, if it's going to take a long time, you'd better get started on it right now. Australia cannot afford to be left behind on developments in the critical technology being utilised safely at about 450 locations around the world.</para>
<para>Nuclear energy makes perfect sense in Australia, where almost 25 per cent of all the world's uranium reserves are located. Going down Labor's renewables-only path will require the mining and refinement of billions of tons of increasingly scarce and expensive raw materials. This is not required by nuclear energy, which has a tiny fraction of the geographic footprint required by renewables. Electricity bills for Australian households without subsidised solar are around 25 per cent higher than those paid by households in nuclear powered countries like the US, France and Canada.</para>
<para>At COP28 a number of countries, including the United States, Canada, the United Kingdom, France, Finland, Japan, South Korea, the Netherlands and Sweden, signed a declaration calling for the tripling of the world's nuclear energy capacity. Also at COP28 were Minister Bowen, Senator McAllister and a delegation of 48 bureaucrats representing an isolated government—the only G20 nation in the world not pursuing nuclear energy. Instead, they've signed a pledge to triple renewable energy capacity. We know what that really means: more pain for Australian families and businesses as they struggle with ever-increasing electricity bills. It means more pain for the country as the unreliability of renewables hits us with blackouts and brownouts.</para>
<para>Labor is hopelessly compromised on nuclear energy. They're happy for it to be used to power submarines but not the Australian households and businesses who need it. Labor's ignorance and obstinacy cannot be denied. They have no plan whatsoever for the massive environmental cost of disposing of used solar panels and wind turbines, none of which have been recycled anywhere in the world and virtually all of which is ending up as landfill.</para>
<para>They have no plan to manage the increasing withdrawal of private financing and investment in renewables, because the numbers don't stack up for private financing without taxpayers intervening.</para>
<para>One Nation has led the policy charge with nuclear energy, with a bill in New South Wales three years ago seeking to overturn state bans. We support nuclear energy and support lifting the suicidal national ban on this technology in Australia. Senator Grogan says it's not viable. Green hydrogen, which you're heading down the path towards, is not viable either and it doesn't work either, so don't talk about it not being viable— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise, as someone who is heading to Dubai at the end of the week to attend COP28, to speak in favour of this motion. I think it is incredible that a country with 35 per cent of the world's uranium—we're exporting it to the world—isn't looking at nuclear energy. Everyone in the G20 and all of our trading partners have signed up to net zero by 2050. What are we trying to do? Get to net zero by 2050 with one hand tied behind our back, instead of using a cheap, reliable source of zero-emission energy. The Labor government, in the fantasy world that they seem to exist in, are saying, 'No, we're not going to look at that.' The rest of the world is tickered up and the International Energy Agency has said, 'The world will not get to net zero by 2050 unless there's an adoption of nuclear energy production.' The IPCC has said it as well. It's not just those on this side of the chamber.</para>
<para>What's the Labor government saying? 'No; we're going to electrify Australia. You're all going to be driving an electric car. Your mum is ripping out her gas stove to put electric hotplates back in.' We got rid of those in the seventies. Fine. We're building 28,000 kilometres of transmission lines across our country. Why? Because the Labor Party refuses to remove the moratorium our country has on building nuclear power or even about thinking about nuclear power as a potential option for our nation to deal with reality of the laws of physics and the laws of economics that you are going to have to come to terms with.</para>
<para>It's all been very ambitious up until now. It's all been very ethereal and very 'unicorn pie in the sky', but at some point you are going to have to ensure that the lights stay on and that people are in well-paid jobs in regional capitals and in our suburbs across the country. That means production lines in all of our manufacturing facilities don't shut down because the wind isn't blowing, the sun isn't shining or you haven't quite got the tens of thousands of kilometres of transmission lines up and running in time. This is the reality you're facing. That is why at COP28 this week the world came together to recognise the fundamental fact that, in the race and the ambition to reach net zero by 2050, you cannot leave nuclear power generation out of your mix. Of course you're going to have to have wind, you're going to have to have solar and you're going to have to have carbon sequestration. You are also going to have to have nuclear. For a country like ours, where so many of our well-paying jobs and your union members' jobs are reliant on cheap and available energy production, why would you take this particular piece—this tool—out of what we're considering?</para>
<para>Of course it's going to take time, but so is building 28,000 kilometres of infrastructure. The fact is that your infrastructure construction is going to cost $328 billion. That is the reality. Don't shake your head, please, senators on the opposite side of the chamber—through you, Chair—because that is your own costing. That will come at the cost of building road and rail projects, and we know the Inland Rail in and of itself will produce 750 thousand tonnes of CO2 every single year it's going to be in operation. Hundreds of thousands of B-double trucks are going off the road because of that singular piece of infrastructure.</para>
<para>We are very much looking forward to heading over to Dubai. I call on Minister Bowen and say, 'It's not too late to join with the 22 other countries.' Not all of them already have nuclear power generation in their borders, but they're committed to the science that says we can't, as a globe, get to net zero there without a zero-emissions energy source like nuclear.</para>
<para>We are not a country that is subjected to earthquakes. We are a country that has very high environmental laws and sustainability frameworks, so adopting that technology here just makes sense, rather than turning your back and trying to do something no one else in the world is seeking to do. I heard comments earlier that Australians are against it—no they're not, only 24 per cent of Australians oppose it. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm very pleased to rise, and I thank the senators for raising this really important issue. I have taken a very keen interest in our energy market as a regional Australian, as a regional Queenslander and as the Special Envoy for the Great Barrier Reef, because I know that taking action on climate change is so important. But I also know that delivering cheaper and cleaner energy is really important for regional Australia. That is why our government have taken a policy to the election and are progressing it to make sure that we can deliver cleaner and cheaper energy.</para>
<para>Unfortunately, after 10 years, those opposite had 22 draft policies but they couldn't land a single one, so they are here today to lecture us about energy policy. After 22 failed goes, they didn't land a single policy but they are here today to lecture us about energy policy. It's really important that Australians know that there are no secrets to Labor's policy. I don't know why those opposite are so opposed to renewable energy. That is a secret to me. I don't understand why they're so against enhancing the natural resources of our country. But we made sure that we took to the election a clear and decisive plan to reduce emissions and get our country to net zero. One of the first acts of our government was to limit our emissions reduction targets. We have also doubled approvals for renewable energy projects, with the sector already supporting thousands of jobs around the country. Speaking of jobs, we are providing clean energy apprenticeships to ensure that we have the skilled workforce that's needed for the thousands of jobs that this sector will create.</para>
<para>When it comes to policies, we know from this motion today that the Liberals and Nationals have a policy of bringing in nuclear power. What we don't know are the details of the policy. We don't know where, we don't know when and we don't know how much. Today on RN breakfast, the shadow minister for energy belled the cat on some of these details. He said that he would be absolutely happy to welcome a nuclear facility to his electorate of Fairfax in Queensland. He couldn't tell presenter how much the policy would cost. We know that there are estimates that it would cost Australian $25,000 each for the $387 billion cost burden that the Liberals' nuclear plan would put on Australians. What they were able to tell us is that when it comes to nuclear facilities, they are happy to have them on Coolum Beach, just down the road from Noosa, and all the way through our Queensland coast. They need to tell us how much it's going to cost, they need to tell us where they're going to put them and they need to tell us when. It's a simple question. If they have a policy, tell us the details. There are no secrets with us but there are secrets on the other side.</para>
<para>Finally, I'll turn to the other issue raised in this motion—and I thank Senator Cadell. COP28 is taking place at the moment. Many senators have a keen interest in COP28, including senators from the Liberal and National parties. Some of them are heading over there. At least 10 members of the opposition have registered to attend—Senator Davey, Senator Kovacic, Senator McKenzie, Senator Smith and Senator Bragg. This is in addition to the member for Fairfax, the member for Page, the member for Bradfield, the member for Lyne and the Deputy Leader of the Opposition. They're all heading over there, but the question I have—and we'll find out in the ordinary course of declarations that are required by members of parliament, but it remains a question—is: who is funding these trips?</para>
<para>One option may be the Coalition for Conservation, and I say this only because we know that this same group sent delegations of coalition MPs and senators to COP26 in Glasgow and COP27 in Egypt.</para>
<para>They've also announced that they'll be sending a delegation to COP28. Is this the group funding these MPs and senators to go to COP28? The Coalition for Conservation is an internal lobby group within the coalition. I tripped over those words as little because they make it clear in their annual report that, unlike other environmental organisations, they have a 'pro-growth' philosophy.</para>
<para>It was actually Senator Van, a member of the COP27 delegation, who said that the role of the group has been to highlight conservative voices. So it's not so much about conservation but about conservative voices in this discussion. It's an interesting group. We know who's going to COP28, we know that previous delegations have been supported by the Coalition for Conservation, but we don't know who is funding the Coalition for Conservation, because their donors are secret. When it comes to the LNP and nuclear power policy, that's all we seem to get. <inline font-style="italic">(Time </inline><inline font-style="italic">expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise here today in support of Senator Cadell's MPI. I agree that we must adopt a technology-neutral approach to energy generation. That's obvious. But my motivation is certainly not driven by COP28 or our nation's commitment to net zero ideology. I'm motivated by ensuring the Australian people have access to the cheapest and most reliable forms of energy generation in the world. We are, after all, an energy resource superpower. It is shameful that we are deliberately blowing out our stable baseload power generators. Minister Bowen knows that he has about as much chance of reaching net zero as I have of realising my $275 power bill saving—and that's Buckleys and none!</para>
<para>Minister Bowen's stubborn opposition to nuclear power puts him at odds with all our key allies. USA, Canada, France, Japan and the UK are all pursuing nuclear power as the answer to reaching net zero whilst also keeping the lights on, but not Minister Bowen. He knows better than the rest of the world, you see. Never mind that he's proving technology, never mind that he can power our nation and plug straight into our existing electricity grid and never mind that South Australia is literally sitting on top of one of the largest uranium deposits in the world. Despite all of these things, Minister Bowen refuses to have a conversation around nuclear power for Australia. That is how we know the minister's opposition is ideological and not based on any rational argument.</para>
<para>Australia cannot afford an ideologically driven energy policy. We just don't have the luxury. Australia looked silly at COP28 this week. Imagine how we'll look when all the lights go out—even worse.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As Confucius said, 'The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago or today.' Would 20 years ago have been a great time for us to start our transition to nuclear energy? Absolutely, it would have been. Twenty years ago or 10 years ago, any period would have been beneficial. But, as Confucius said, if it didn't happen 20 years ago, the next best time is today. I am, as I'm sure are many Australians who are currently facing cost-of-living pressures and only seeing their family's financial situation continue to deteriorate, looking forward to the next election. I'm looking forward to the next election to say goodbye to the Albanese government for many, many reasons.</para>
<para>One of those reasons is that—and I'm pretty sure I'm not letting too much of the cat out of the bag—we will have a policy that looks to end the moratorium in the EPBC Act, the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 Commonwealth. All we want, and what everyone's very frightened about on the other side, is to remove four little words: 'a nuclear power plant'. In section 140A(1)(b), by removing those four little words, we would allow the market to look at this. No-one here is saying that we want to build a small modular reactor here. No-one's saying that we want a large-scale reactor over there.</para>
<para>What we are saying is that, when it comes to the energy challenge and looking at how we will secure a low-emissions future, we will secure that with reliable and affordable baseload energy. This is what those opposite don't understand. Baseload energy is firming energy. It's reliable. It's there at any given moment, unlike wind or solar, which are intermittent. No-one is saying they won't form part of it, but they will certainly not be the only things that will keep industry and the lights on in Australia.</para>
<para>By removing those four little words, the market will come in. We have an approach to all of the above types of energy. We are not ideological here. We are technologically agnostic when it comes to power, because, when Australians want to put their air conditioners on over summer, when it's a bit hot and they're escaping the heat by watching the cricket indoors, they won't care where that energy is coming from. They will just want to know that they can pay the bill and that it's reliable. But Casanova—Minister Bowen in the other place, the former minister for pink batts—is absolutely embarrassing the country. He is embarrassing Australia. He is out there saying, 'Renewable energy will be Australia's future, wholly and solely; no, thank you, nuclear.' He's saying, 'No, thank you,' to any form of energy other than their ideologically based renewables.</para>
<para>For renewables to work, they need batteries. I noticed that one of the electric vehicle companies in Australia has just announced the recall of 1,500 cars due to issues with their batteries. There are life-threatening issues around their chargers. Today, we also have three men in Sydney who have been sent to hospital. One, who has serious burns, is in Royal North Shore Hospital after an electric bike's battery blew up in his apartment. There are issues with these batteries, but you won't hear it from those opposite, because it's 'wind and solar', and they say, 'Let's all put batteries everywhere.' It is absolutely ridiculous.</para>
<para>We know that President Macron has come out calling for Australia to lift the moratorium on nuclear energy and join the rest of the world. It's extraordinary when we look at how often Mr Albanese likes to get on a plane, yet we know that there was a whole meeting over in Paris. I'm pretty sure he would have enjoyed a trip to gay Paris. He could have joined Canada, Finland, France, Ghana, Japan, Korea, Poland, Romania, the Netherlands, the UK, the US and a whole lot of other countries in gay Paris to discuss nuclear energy and how it will pay a role. I'm sure Jodes would have liked to visit and pop up to the Eiffel Tower, but no. Through the absolute obstinance of not removing four little words from the EPBC Act, nuclear is off the table for any discussion—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for discussion has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>81</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>81</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>BIRMINGHAM (—) (): by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That on Tuesday 5 December 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the hours of meeting be 9.30 am to adjournment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the routine of business until 1.30 pm be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) acknowledgement of country and prayers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) documents to be presented</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) committees—proposals to meet</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) consideration of the Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023, with time allotted for the remaining stages as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) second reading—1 hour; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) questions on all remaining stages put at 11.30am;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) government business only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) then the Senate shall return to its routine of business; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) paragraph (b)(iv) operate as a limitation of debate under standing order 142.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move an amendment to the motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all words after "That", substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"on Tuesday, 5 December 2023—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the hours of meeting be 9.30 am till adjournment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the routine of business from 9.30 am till 1.30 pm be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) government business only,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) at midday, Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) government business only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the routine of business from not later than 5.30 pm be consideration of the following bills:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) Nature Repair Market Bill 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Nature Repair Market (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2023,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) Treasury Laws Amendment (Making Multinationals Pay Their Fair Share—Integrity and Transparency) Bill 2023, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the questions be put on the bills, as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at 6.30 pm—second reading of the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) at 8.30 pm—all remaining stages of the bills listed in paragraph (c);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) paragraph (d) operate as a limitation of debate under standing order 142;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) divisions may take place after 6.30 pm; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) the Senate adjourn without debate after consideration of the bills has concluded."</para></quote>
<para>Essentially, the purpose of this amendment is that, at the end of the opposition's proposal, we would then move to the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023, the Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023, the tobacco bills that we've been debating, being the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 and the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023, and the Treasury Laws Amendment (Making Multinationals Pay Their Fair Share—Integrity and Transparency) Bill 2023 but not the Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023 as listed, because that would have been dealt with in the opposition's motion. The purpose of this amendment is also that Senator Birmingham's motion follow sections (b) to (e) of the government's amendment, which would effectively mean that we deal with those bills by about 8.30 pm tomorrow.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to speak to the amendment, a copy of which I trust will land in my hand any second now. This amendment is the motion that we saw a short time ago the government had submitted for tomorrow—I see it still includes the Infrastructure Australia bill under the amendment that's been circulated—which sets up a series of guillotines on a series of significant bills. The opposition are not in a position to support the amendment as it is, given what we understand will be very notable changes, potentially, proposed to some of these bills. I particularly note the deeply suspicious motion on the Nature Repair Market Bill that has been lodged by the government for tomorrow, which suggests that significant changes to the EPBC Act are going to be snuck in as part of the arrangements.</para>
<para>The guillotining of these other items is of concern to the opposition. We were seeking, in the motion I moved, to ensure that we brought on an earlier start tomorrow to give us the capacity, from the earlier start, to deal with the Infrastructure Australia bill, which the government was proposing to guillotine tomorrow in any event. In having that dealt with, we then knew that the government would proceed with its motion tomorrow, under whatever terms, to vary the rest of government business, presumably as they had lodged and submitted. Our proposal gave the government no reduction in government business time. It dealt with one of the bills on their list of bills to be dealt with, but the opposition do have significant concerns and are not in a position to support a guillotine for all of the other bills at this stage.</para>
<para>We acknowledge that discussions around the chamber will take place, particularly in the final sitting week of the year, to have matters dealt with. In this case, as I say, we were not seeking to deprive the government of any government business time; in fact, we proposed an approach that provided for extra government business time and that dealt with one of the bills, the Infrastructure Australia bill, that the government wanted to have done. Of course, the government may well have the numbers to amend my motion and, in amending my motion, could get its way, and we could still have the extra hours and consideration of the Infrastructure Australia bill first thing in the morning. So, if the support is there, the Senate could start earlier tomorrow. Tomorrow being Tuesday, ordinarily, with the House of Representatives sitting, the parties of government and opposition are tied up in terms of the consideration of legislation. There are the proposals in party room and caucus meetings, and, during those meetings, we are assessing bills often introduced into the House of Representatives and being briefed upon those. But with the House of Representatives not sitting at this point in time it seemed appropriate for us to convene the Senate at an earlier time to deal with this in what we thought was a constructive, sensible way to provide for the extra hours to deal with Infrastructure Australia, so as not to impede the government being able to work through things but equally not to compromise on the things that are impossible for the opposition to compromise on, particularly some of the bills the government is seeking to guillotine.</para>
<para>I hope the substantive motion can be dealt with. The opposition cannot support the amendment but acknowledges that if it is added to the motion we will, of course, see the motion carried through this place.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wonder if it would be possible, perhaps by leave, to return to docs and see if we could have a brief discussion.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm getting nods from around the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We have a deadline of 6.30.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this debate be adjourned until a later hour.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move an amendment to the motion put by Senator Wong:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the debate be moved to no later than 6.15.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Ruston be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the motion as moved by Senator Wong and amended by Senator Ruston be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>83</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>83</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Murray-Darling Basin Plan, Northern Basin Aboriginal Nations Funding Agreements, Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water, Department of the Treasury, Immigration Detention</title>
          <page.no>83</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>83</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, the Northern Basin Aboriginal Nations Funding Agreement, Indigenous cultural heritage protection laws, the Compensation Scheme of Last Resort and immigration detention.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>83</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia's Disaster Resilience Select Committee, Community Affairs Legislation Committee, Community Affairs References Committee, Cost of Living Select Committee, Economics Legislation Committee, Economics References Committee, Education and Employment Legislation Committee, Education and Employment References Committee, Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, Environment and Communications References Committee, Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, Finance and Public Administration References Committee, Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation Committee, Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade References Committee, Law Enforcement Joint Committee, Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee, National Disability Insurance Scheme Joint Committee, Perth Mint and Commonwealth Regulatory Compliance Select Committee, Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee, Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>83</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>83</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received a letter requesting changes in the membership of various committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's Disaster Resilience — Select Committee —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator Liddle</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating member: Senator Liddle</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Cost of Living — Select Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economics Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Education and Employment Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finance and Public Administration Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Law Enforcement — Joint Statutory Committee —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator Askew</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Disability Insurance Scheme — Joint Standing Committee —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator Reynolds</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Perth Mint — Select Committee —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation and References Committees —</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Participating member: Senator Sharma</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>84</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023, Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023, Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Closing Loopholes) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>84</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7048" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r7094" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7072" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Closing Loopholes) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>84</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<para>That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>84</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table revised explanatory memoranda relating to the Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023 and the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Closing Loopholes) Bill 2023, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The speech</inline> <inline font-style="italic">es</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">COUNTER-TERRORISM LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (PROHIBITED HATE SYMBOLS AND OTHER MEASURES) BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Everyone can, and must, call out hate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Until recently, it would have been unthinkable that Neo-Nazis would burn crosses and openly chant white supremacist slogans in a popular national park or perform Nazi salutes in the front of the Victorian parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But over the last several years, we have seen these incidents and more. Today, the Albanese government is taking a significant step towards sending a message that Australia is united against displays of hate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (Prohibited Hate Symbols and Other Measures) Bill 2023 makes critical changes to the Commonwealth Criminal Code to support law enforcement in their efforts to manage and protect the community from those planning, preparing and inspiring others to do harm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Criminalising the public display and trading of the prohibited hate symbols and salute</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 of the Bill makes it a criminal offence to publicly display prohibited hate symbols—the Nazi hakenkreuz, the Nazi double sig rune and those used by terrorist organisation—and trade items bearing these symbols.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Nazi hakenkreuz and the Nazi double sig rune, also known as the Schutzstaffel insignia, represent the vile ideology of the Third Reich and conjure fear in many parts of the Australian community whose families suffered the horrors of the Holocaust. Similarly, terrorist organisations use symbols to build group belonging and to spread their ideology as well as fear and hatred in our community. These symbols are also used to promote hatred of other groups, including LGBTIQ+ Australians.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Extremist insignia are an effective propaganda tool because they are easy to remember and understand. They also transcend language and cultural divides.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new public display offence in this Bill is designed to stamp out the harassment and vilification of innocent Australians whose communities are callously targeted by Nazi, Neo-Nazi and terrorist organisation supporters.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The trading offence ensures that a person cannot profit from selling, renting or leasing paraphernalia containing these symbols of hate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also enables law enforcement to issue a direction to a person requiring the removal of prohibited symbols from public display.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These offences have been carefully considered and crafted so as not to capture legitimate uses of these symbols. The Bill expressly excludes conduct that is done for a religious, academic, educational, artistic, literary, scientific or journalistic purpose. Significantly, it will be the responsibility of the prosecution—not the defence—to prove that the alleged conduct fell outside those exemptions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, public display for the purposes of education is permitted so the horrors of the Second World War are not forgotten, and can continue to be taught as a lesson for future generations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government acknowledges the continued importance of the sacred swastika as a symbol that has immense significance to the Buddhist, Hindu, Jain and other communities of faith. The Government recognises the distinction between the sacred swastika and the misappropriated Nazi hakenkreuz. The Bill protects the use of the sacred swastika for the purpose of religious observance in recognition of its immense significance to these faith communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, in criminalising the public display and trade of symbols used by terrorist organisations, the Government recognises that the Shahada and the Seal of the Prophet have been misappropriated by terrorist organisations. We will not let a terrorist organisation cause further harm and distress to any in our community. The Government condemns Islamophobia and stands with the Australian Muslim community in opposition to terrorism in all its forms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill complements the efforts of state and territory governments around the country who have legislated similar prohibitions in their respective jurisdictions. The Bill extends to matters where the Commonwealth has particular responsibilities, including those with respect to trade and the online environment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Criminalising the performance of the Nazi salute will complement the other measures in the Bill relating to Nazi symbols. Like those symbols, the Nazi salute is widely recognised and used to promote hateful ideologies, recruit followers and convey messages of hatred and violence. It represents the vile ideology of Nazism and conjures fear in many sectors of the Australian community whose predecessors suffered through some of the worst atrocities in history. It is appalling that there have been incidents involving the performance of the Nazi salute in Australia, and it has to stop.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Any attempt to re-enliven and disseminate Nazi ideology must be definitively characterised as criminal behaviour.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Criminalising the use of a carriage service to deal with violent extremist material</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Violent extremist material, which is used to incite violence and instil fear in the community, has no place in our society.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While it is presently a crime to possess material that is connected with a terrorist act it is not a crime to possess violent extremist material where, for example, planning for an attack is not underway. Schedule 2 of the Bill addresses that gap by creating new offences for using a carriage service to possess or disseminate violent extremist material, noting the harmful nature of the material itself.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The offences, punishable by up to five years imprisonment, will facilitate law enforcement intervention at an earlier stage in individuals' progress to violent radicalisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Strengthen the 'advocating terrorism' offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 of the Bill strengthens the offence of advocating terrorism in the Criminal Code.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The promotion and idealisation of extremist views is of increasing concern, particularly with respect to young people becoming radicalised online. Glorifying terrorists or providing guidance on the commission of terrorist acts can incite others to imitate or seek to engage in similar behaviour, and further their radicalisation. To address this, the Bill expands the offence for advocating terrorism in the Criminal Code to include instructing on the doing of a terrorist act or praising the doing of a terrorist act in circumstances where there is a substantial risk that such praise might lead someone to engage in a terrorist act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Recognising that advocating terrorism is a serious act that can lead to violence against innocent Australians, the Bill increases the maximum penalty for this offence from five to seven years imprisonment. The new penalty more appropriately accounts for the severity of potential offending.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Indefinite listings of terrorist organisations</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 4 of the Bill amends the Criminal Code to provide that regulations that proscribe terrorist organisations do not lapse after three years but continue indefinitely unless revoked by the AFP minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The current sunsetting date of three years is unnecessarily short and does not reflect the longevity of terrorist organisations. Some of the 41 organisations listed since 2002 have been relisted as many as eight times.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To ensure the appropriateness of the listing of organisations, the Bill requires the AFP Minister to take steps to remove the organisation from the list as soon as practicable if they become aware that an organisation no longer meets the listing threshold. Any person can make an application to the AFP Minister to revoke a listing instrument in relation to a terrorist organisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also grants the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security an own-motion power to commence a review as to whether an organisation continues to satisfy the threshold to be listed as a terrorist organisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Conclusion</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I find it almost unthinkable that this legislation is even necessary. Thousands of Australians fought and died to defeat the evil that some within our community now seek to promote. But we do need to act and we do need to make it clear that we will not tolerate this kind of conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's diversity is our greatest strength.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To those who are targeted because of their faith, we stand with you.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For those who face abuse simply for being who they are, we stand with you.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We will act to keep you safe and free to live your lives without fear.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If more is required to ensure the safety and security of all Australians from hatred and vilification, the Government will act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">_____</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ECONOMIC INCLUSION ADVISORY COMMITTEE BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Albanese Government is working every day to deliver on our positive agenda to boost economic inclusion and broaden opportunity for all Australians. And as a Labor government, we will always work to support the most vulnerable in our society, tackle disadvantage and provide more opportunities to boost economic participation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is why, in November last year, the Prime Minister announced the establishment of the Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee. The Committee was tasked to provide advice to Government ahead of every federal Budget, on ways to boost economic inclusion, and to tackle disadvantage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An interim Committee, comprised of a diverse range of experts, has commenced this important work. It has delivered its first report, including advice on policy settings, systems and structures, and the adequacy, effectiveness and sustainability of income support payments, which helped to inform the Government's considerations ahead of the 2023-24 Budget.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Now, with the introduction of the Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill, we are delivering on the Government's commitment to permanently establish the Committee as a statutory body. This will ensure there is an ongoing mechanism for the provision of independent, expert advice to government on these important issues.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill reflects the Albanese Government's commitment to hear from experts, stakeholders and the community. We recognise the value in ensuring a broad range of views are considered in the design and development of policy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And disadvantage is a complex and systemic problem. That is why this Government in our 2023-24 Budget, announced the overhaul of the way Australia tackles entrenched disadvantage—by investing almost $200 million to deliver a comprehensive agenda to target those communities doing it the toughest. The Targeting Entrenched Disadvantage Package will better enable government to partner with philanthropy, to listen to and empower local leaders, and work with communities to direct services in a way that meets their needs in a shared decision making framework.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We've also taken action to improve the economic inclusion of people across Australia, with more support to help with cost of living pressures. The 2023-24 Budget announced a range of measures to support those on low incomes, including increasing the rates of working-age and student payments, and Commonwealth Rent Assistance, and expanding access to Parenting Payment (Single).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And legislation to implement two social security measures announced in the Employment White Paper, which are designed to smooth the transition between income support and employment, and give people more support to get into work, recently received Royal Assent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But boosting economic inclusion and tackling disadvantage can't be resolved in a single Budget process or indeed, through a single portfolio. It requires sustained commitment over time and across government. This Bill will ensure there is an enduring mechanism for government to benefit from independent, expert advice on ways to support Australians in need, broaden opportunity, and reduce disadvantage in our communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Similar to arrangements in place for the interim Committee, the Bill tasks the Committee with reporting to Government annually with this advice. Their scope includes advice on income support payments, options to reduce barriers to work and economic inclusion, particularly for long-term unemployed and disadvantaged or disengaged groups.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is also within the remit of the Committee to provide advice on the impact of economic inclusion policies on gender equality, as well as cohorts that face barriers to work—such as people with caring responsibilities, Indigenous persons, and people with disability. In addition, the Committee may provide advice on inequality markers in Australia, as well as international comparisons.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To assist government's consideration of its advice, the Bill requires the Committee to demonstrate regard in its report, to the Government's economic and fiscal outlook and fiscal strategy, workforce participation, relevant existing policies, and the long-term sustainability of the social security system in the overall context of the Budget.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While this Committee is independent, it is also important that Government can leverage the expertise and advice of the Committee to deliver on its agenda and priorities. To this end, the Bill enables the Treasurer and Minister for Social Services to seek advice from the Committee on specific issues, with this direction power designed to ensure that governments can leverage the expertise of the Committee in areas of focus—for instance, with respect to certain cohorts, a specific region, or particular policy area.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The advice to Government will be transparent, with the Government to publish the findings of the Committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is important that the membership of the Committee reflects the diverse experience and expertise necessary for considering the complex and multi-faceted issues of economic inclusion and disadvantage. As is the case for the interim arrangements currently in place, the Committee is to include representatives of organisations who work closely with, and represent the diverse views of people who can inform the Committee of their lived experience of disadvantage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Chair and up to 13 members will be drawn from key advocacy organisations, the community sector, academia, unions, and the business sector, appointed by the Minister for Social Services, in consultation with the Treasurer.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Members will hold office on a part-time basis for up to three years, however they will be eligible for reappointment once their term ends. The positions are not remunerated, however the Government is ensuring ongoing support for the important work of the Committee by providing $8.7 million over the forward estimates—and $2.2 million per year ongoing. This funding is there to support the Committee to commission its own research, undertake consultations, and for secretariat services to be provided by the Department of Social Services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill provides a range of further provisions for the operation of the Committee including the role of relevant departmental secretaries, the termination of members, acting appointments and absences of members. It also provides for periodic independent reviews of the operation of the Committee and the Act every five years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Of course, it is also important to remember that this is an advisory committee, and its advice is non-binding. The Government will continue to make the decisions necessary to improve the lives of our citizens. That is what Australians elect governments to do.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But these decisions should be informed by consideration of the best possible advice from a range of sources. With this Bill, we are establishing an enduring mechanism to receive advice from experts, stakeholders and community views. It is part of the Albanese Government's plan, to build a better future for all Australians, to broaden opportunity and to make Australia more inclusive.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend this Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">_____</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">FAIR WORK LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (CLOSING LOOPHOLES) BILL 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Last year, with the Secure Jobs Better Pay Bill, the parliament passed legislation to improve job security, increase wages and close the gender pay gap. And all the evidence suggests it worked.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But many Australians are not receiving the full benefit of these changes, because of loopholes that allow pay and conditions to be undercut.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The businesses which use these loopholes are able to undercut Australia's best employers in a race to the bottom.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If we want workers to be paid properly we need to close the loopholes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If we want casuals to have a pathway to secure work we need to close the loopholes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If we want enterprise agreements to determine minimum rates of pay at a workplace, we need to close the loopholes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If we want gig workers and those in road transport to have minimum standards, we need to close the loopholes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In relation to wage theft, it is already a crime for a worker to steal from an employer, as it should be. But it's not a crime for an employer to steal from a worker. We will close this loophole.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An employer convicted of intentional wage theft—including the theft of superannuation—could face up to 10 years imprisonment. Significantly, courts will be able to impose fines of up to three times the amount of the wage underpayment in both civil and criminal contexts, allowing penalties to be proportionate to the scale of the misconduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Employers who take reasonable steps to pay the correct amounts, or who make honest mistakes, will not be criminally prosecuted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Ombudsman will be able to enter cooperation agreements with employers who come forward, and a new Voluntary Small Business Wage Compliance Code will provide assurance to small-business employers that they can't be pursued criminally if they take appropriate steps to comply with the law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Maximum civil penalties for wage underpayment, including reckless wage underpayment, will be increased, implementing recommendation 5 of the Migrant Workers' Taskforce.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are two key challenges in stamping out wage underpayments: one is how you detect the problem early, and a second is how you help workers-often very vulnerable workers-to speak up in the workplace.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We are making two changes to address these issues.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The first is an amendment to the current process allowing worker representatives to access workplaces to support workers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, the Fair Work Commission can decide to allow a representative to enter a workplace without 24 hours' notice if there is a reasonable prospect of the destruction or concealment of evidence. We will give the commission the capacity to also grant right of entry where it is satisfied there is a reasonable suspicion of wage underpayment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There can be cases where the paperwork is impeccable but wage theft is occurring. For example, if a worker is being directed to clock off but is still required to work after that, you will only uncover this by attending without notice.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Existing safeguards applying to right of entry will continue. This bill makes no changes to section 483AA for access to non-member records and keeps the prohibition on accessing residential premises.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Secondly, a common feature of many high-profile wage underpayment cases is that, when they are discovered, we find the problem has been going on for years and years. People are too afraid to speak up, and there are no processes in place to help them do so. We need to make sure that, if someone is not being treated fairly at work, it's discovered early. That's why this bill contains important new protections and rights for workplace delegates, including reasonable access to paid relevant training-with small businesses exempt from this requirement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes increase the likelihood that there will be a fellow employee at the workplace who is trained and knows the rules. This means more underpayment issues will be resolved early and quickly without involving anyone from outside the workplace.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The next loophole involves casual employment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Casual employment suits many Australians and plays an important role in our workplaces.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But when someone is called 'casual' on their pay slip or their contract but is rostered like a permanent worker, expected to accept shifts like a permanent worker, and has a job likely to continue into the future indefinitely, then there's a clear loophole. A worker like this should be able to choose secure employment if they want it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ability to treat someone as a casual against their wishes, even if they are working like a permanent worker, is an unfair loophole. And we will close it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A casual will still be defined as someone who does not have a firm advance commitment to continuing and indefinite work, but the bill will enable employees and their employers to look at what's really happening, not just what their contract says. Employees will be able to notify their employer that they wish to be permanent if they believe they no longer meet the casual definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Providing certainty to business, casual employees will remain casual unless they actively choose otherwise; and where an employee chooses to become permanent, no back pay will accrue. Employers who mistakenly misclassify a worker as casual will not be subject to penalties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Most casuals who are eligible won't want to convert and will not be forced to. Most will prefer to keep their loading. But those casuals who may be supporting a household with that job are more likely to want security. Their rent isn't casual; their bills aren't casual. They need a better option for security.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Commission will have the ability to resolve any disputes, including through arbitration as a last resort or in exceptional circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The next problem is the labour hire loophole.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There's a legitimate role for labour hire in Australia-for surge work, for specialist work, or to provide temporary replacement workers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Because of the inherent insecurity, labour hire workers are usually paid higher rates of pay, and those cases are completely unaffected by this legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But when a business agrees on rates of pay for particular work in an enterprise agreement, and then asks labour hire workers to do the work <inline font-style="italic">for less-this 1s </inline>a labour hire loophole and this bill will close it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On application, the Fair Work Commission will be able to make an order requiring labour hire workers to be paid at least the minimum rates in a host business's enterprise agreement. The Fair Work Commission must not make the order unless it is satisfied that the performance of work is not for the provision of a service rather than supply of labour, and that it is fair and reasonable to do so. Orders can only apply to pay rates; not to non-monetary conditions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be very clear-this reform does not prevent employers paying their employees more in recognition of their skills, qualifications and experience.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It does not apply to hosts who are small businesses; or to independent contractors; or to training arrangements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill contains broad anti-avoidance protections that will stop businesses deliberately changing and manipulating their operations to try to get around these new obligations and includes appropriate safeguards to ensure the continued operation of orders when circumstances change.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Commission will help businesses to implement these obligations, including through developing guidelines and resolving disputes, should they arise.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A definition of employment is needed to prevent businesses from calling a person an 'independent contractor' and thereby avoiding paying them employment entitlements when in reality the relationship is one of employment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Courts will now be required to look at the totality of the relationship, not only what's on paper, to work out what is really going on.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And we need fair minimum standards for employee-like workers and the road transport industry. Currently gig workers have no minimum standards at all.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a loophole causing serious harm to workers and it must be closed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments in this bill will allow the Fair Work Commission to make minimum standards orders for workers on digital platforms who do not meet the definition of employee, but nonetheless have low bargaining power, or low authority over their work or comparatively low pay-for example, people doing work via digital platforms in the NDIS, working in aged care, delivering food to people's homes, or transporting us around.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In many countries, the answer for these types of workers has been 'just make them an employee'. We are not doing that. We are going to accept the form of engagement, and set a framework for the Fair Work Commission to set standards that are fit-for-purpose for the unique nature of digital platform work. We've listened to platforms such as Uber, Menulog and Doordash to ensure the reforms will do this.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, the Fair Work Commission might come up with a minimum rate of pay. In relation to rideshare, it might go for a 5-minute or per- minute rate rather than an hourly rate. Why? Because it would need to be a rate appropriate for the form of engagement. It would also take into consideration other factors, for example, that workers might be working on more than one platform at a time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Things like insurance and cost recovery standards-these are possible without changing the form of engagement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Things like rostering and overtime would change the form of engagement and are not permitted under the bill. Similarly, you couldn't logically pay somebody for all the time that they're just on the app, because that would wreck the form of engagement. For matters like penalty rates and minimum periods of engagement-these can only be set where it is appropriate for the type of work.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While minimum standards for gig workers are critical, we also know that many Australians rely on the services. The Fair Work Commission is required to consider the impacts standards would have on users of platform services, and on other matters such as business costs, productivity and viability.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Gig workers will have new rights to seek reinstatement if they've been unfairly deactivated from the platform. Gig workers have the same financial obligations as other workers and should not have their platform access and livelihood unfairly cut off without any chance of redress.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, we are still ensuring that platforms can take legitimate management action to protect users of services, including temporarily suspending a worker for up to seven days, including where there is a reasonable belief of fraud, or health and safety concerns.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The road transport industry is currently operating in a way that is putting businesses, workers and their families under immense financial pressure and undermining the safety, sustainability and viability of the industry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Acting on calls from the industry to make an urgent change, the bill will allow the Fair Work Commission to set minimum standards for the road transport industry and to hear disputes about unfair contract terminations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill contains a number of guardrails to ensure that the mistakes of the Road Safety Remuneration Tribunal are not repeated. A 'notice of intention' process gives parties an extended period to consider draft minimum standards orders before they become binding. Particular issues that are already comprehensively covered by other laws cannot be regulated. The Fair Work Commission must be satisfied that any order will not have an unreasonable adverse impact on the viability or competitiveness of drivers. Parties affected by a potential order will have the right to be heard before the order is made; and regulations can be made to establish a fail-safe process that allows an employee or employer organisation or the minister to apply to suspend the operation of an order in order to enable a review to take place.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the order will be made by an expert panel within the Fair Work Commission, which must take account of advice from a road transport advisory group, with subcommittees able to provide additional expertise-a group formally established under this bill. This is a clear requirement to ensure orders acknowledge the practical realities of the road transport sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We know that the challenges that drivers face are made worse with complex contractual chains in the trucking industry. To address this, the bill will provide for regulations to empower the Fair Work Commission to make minimum standards for participants in road transport contractual chains. The government will continue to work with industry and union representatives to craft these regulations to ensure they are appropriate and effective in addressing pressing challenges, such as fair payment times.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And we need better protections against unfair contract terms for independent contractors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Existing protections against unfair contract terms under the Independent Contractors Act have not worked.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill creates a low-cost and efficient jurisdiction at the Fair Work Commission for resolving disputes about unfair contract terms in services contracts, for independent contractors below a high-income threshold.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The next problem we are dealing with is fundamental.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Every worker has the right to go to work and come home safely.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, manslaughter is a crime; but the same kind of culpable conduct is not prosecuted as manslaughter if it happens at work.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We will close this loophole.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill makes industrial manslaughter an offence-a long overdue recommendation of Marie Boland's 2018 review of the model work health and safety laws.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The offence includes penalties of $18 million for bodies corporate and 25 years imprisonment for officers. The most serious penalties should apply to recklessly or criminally negligently causing the death of a worker.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill also establishes a Family and Injured Workers Advisory Committee, which will provide advice to the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations and to Commonwealth work health and safety regulators on the support needs of those affected by serious workplace incidents, including those involving the death of a worker, and to help inform the development of relevant policies and strategies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The establishment of the committee follows discussions the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations has had with families affected by a workplace fatality, and I acknowledge their tireless commitment to reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is committed to taking action to prevent serious workplace incidents from occurring; and ensuring that we have the right supports in place for those affected.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill will also expand the Asbestos Safety and Eradication Agency's functions to eliminate silicosis and silica-related diseases in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will simplify workers' compensation for first responders with post- traumatic stress disorder, including firefighters, Australian Federal Police employees, ambulance officers and emergency services communications operators in the Commonwealth jurisdiction.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will further improve bargaining by giving the Fair Work Commission the power to make enterprise agreement model terms, allowing franchisees to bargain together in the single-enterprise bargaining stream and allowing employers covered by a multi-enterprise agreement to bargain with their employees for a replacement single-enterprise agreement at any time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Changes to workplace determinations ensure that when deciding the terms of an intractable bargaining workplace determination, the Fair Work Commission cannot include a term that is less favourable to employees or employee organisations when compared against a term in an existing agreement that deals with the matter. The bill also increases the scope for terms to be agreed between bargaining representatives for a proposed enterprise agreement, which must then be included in any intractable bargaining workplace determination made by the Fair Work Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will also clarify the rules regarding who must attend a compulsory conciliation conference under section 448A. This bill will also make minor technical changes to the Coal Mining Industry Long Service Leave legislation to reflect the Mining and Energy Division's withdrawal from the Construction, Forestry, Maritime, Mining and Energy Union.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill will strengthen protections against discrimination for employees subjected to family and domestic violence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will make sham contracting laws fairer.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will clarify the operation of Fair Work Ombudsman compliance notices. It will simplify registered organisation demerger provisions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will close a loophole in the operation of the small business redundancy exemption in insolvency.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill also includes a statutory review of all amendments to the Fair Work Act and other legislation made by the bill, starting within two years of Royal Assent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will allow for an assessment of the amendments after they have been enacted and would consider whether the operation of the amendments made by the Bill are appropriate and effective.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill will close the loopholes which undermine and weaken our workplace relations system, and it will make Australian workplaces safer and fairer.</para></quote>
<para>Ordered that further consideration of the second reading of these bills be adjourned to the first sitting day of the next period of sittings, in accordance with standing order 111.</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>91</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7076" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>91</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>91</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>91</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>91</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Chair of the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, I present the report of the committee on the provisions of the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill together with accompanying documents.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>91</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>91</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the many different people who make up our one Queensland community, One Nation continues to support a fair outcome for all those in the Murray-Darling Basin in Queensland and across the connected river system. The government last week advanced a bill that evolved drastically as it passed through Senate debate—some would say catastrophically through Senate debate. First, the Greens demanded changes for their support. Then Senator Van, Senator Thorpe and Senator Pocock added some tinsel for their respective ideologies. Much like a Christmas tree that the whole family decorated, it looks a bit crook. In fact, I would suggest that nobody knows how the bill is going to actually work.</para>
<para>The council of water ministers dealt with the bill in August this year and failed to issue a communique, which is a record of proceedings that would ordinarily detail any specific approval or rejection of suggested changes to the Murray-Darling Basin Plan 2012. A communique is available on their website for every meeting, going back years, except for August. When I requested it, Assistant Minister McAllister failed to provide it, after first saying it was available. Instead, the federal water minister, Tania Plibersek, put out a political statement that an agreement was made between the federal, New South Wales, South Australian, Queensland and Australian Capital Territory governments to deliver the Murray-Darling Basin Plan in full. Firstly, the ACT is not a state. It is not a voting signatory to the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, so the so-called agreement reached was only between three of the required four states. Secondly, what was the agreement? I hear you saying an agreement was reached, yet no proof of that has been posted, beyond the minister's statement.</para>
<para>Did New South Wales sign on to allow as much as 700 megalitres of buybacks from New South Wales farmers, or not? New South Wales Premier Minns said in a recent press release that he did not sign off on water buybacks and instead only signed off on $700 million in federal money for water projects. Victoria has not agreed to this legislation and is not a party to the buybacks. They've made that abundantly clear.</para>
<para>South Australia has not been honest with their farmers. I have not heard a word about the buybacks being planned from South Australian irrigators. I hear you say, 'Hang on just a minute; the water is for South Australia.' That's true. The government is about to buy back water for South Australian river flow from South Australia. Their irrigators can wave to their water as it flows out to sea. I call upon the South Australian Premier, Peter Malinauskas, to answer a simple question: how much water did you agree could be purchased from South Australian farmers in that August meeting? How much, Premier? I'm hearing as much as 40 gigalitres is intended to be purchased from South Australia, which only has an irrigation pool of 400 gigalitres. That's 10 per cent.</para>
<para>Queensland Premier Palaszczuk has not said a word about water buybacks. With an election coming up next year, the farming community should know what the Premier has just done to them. But they don't know; she won't tell them. I ask the Queensland Premier to be honest and to come clean: how much Queensland water did you agree to be bought back into Queensland?</para>
<para>I understand the game that all the premiers except Victoria's are playing: 'Don't talk about water buybacks. Blame the federal government. Defend Labor's vote against the Greens and the teals. Get re-elected. Shhhh!' It's such a simple plan—except that it breaches the rules around the operation of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan itself. All state premiers must sign off to every change. The minute one state is out of something like water buybacks, the other states have to pick up the slack.</para>
<para>My state of Queensland loses more water and without a further hollowing out of the bush. The Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers Bill) 2023 was heavily amended—and many of us say catastrophically amended. In the House of Representatives the water amendment had five crossbench and 31 government amendments. In the Senate the bill had a haphazard mishmash of 20 government amendments. That's a total of 51 government amendments to a bill that was introduced to parliament, plus five in the Senate from the Greens and eight from the crossbench. That's 20 amendments to the bill in the Senate plus 31 in the House of Reps, reflecting yet another bill brought into the Senate without adequate thought and becoming a scrambled me due to opportunistic trading and deals.</para>
<para>This is no way to govern our country. It is shoddy governance. It is dishonest governance. And who pays? It is farmers, farming families, rural communities, regional Australia—everyone and anyone who eats. The reason there were so many amendments, including government amendments, is that the process of consultation was a complete farce. The government consulted with everyone they knew who would agree with them, and that was it. Irrigators in rural communities were ignored. The bill was pushed through a committee that the government controlled and was sent for a vote when it was so full of holes—51 holes that the government recognised. So the parliamentary process tried. The question remains: did we fix it? Did the premiers approve all these amendments? The amendments could not possibly have been approved. The Senate barely had time to read them. The premiers have most notably not even seen the amendments. The Environment and Communications Legislation Committee reported on what has become a very different bill. The premiers voted on a different bill—a bill they couldn't agree on, and they haven't seen the latest version.</para>
<para>At the very least, we need to see how these amendments fit together and what the impact of these amendments will be on the Murray-Darling Basin, on the environment and on the communities in the basin. Potential harm from the bill needs to be detected now and plans for mitigation canvassed immediately. We need to determine exactly what the rules around changes to the plan are so that amendments are done correctly next time. We need to assess what happens when the federal government starts buying up water in Victoria and the Victorian government rejects or objects. This legislation may be a High Court challenge waiting to happen.</para>
<para>As a new senator back in 2017, when I was in south-west Queensland in the town of St George in the Balonne shire I heard firsthand of the enormous damage to Queensland and northern New South Wales communities. As a result of that, Senator Pauline Hanson and I travelled the Murray from Albury to the Murray mouth, listening to regional communities in southern New South Wales, northern Victoria and South Australia. Later, when I returned to the Senate in 2019, I flew over the whole basin, listening closely to farmers, to communities and to people who had an argument for the environment. I then crossed the basin four times from east to west listening—in Queensland, northern New South Wales, central New South Wales, southern New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, including the regions of South Australia. We developed a credible water policy based on science and people's needs, environmental needs and national needs.</para>
<para>The late John Bristow was a world-renowned expert on water. He visited our country in 2007—I've read a paper he published on it—and he declared that we had the best water management in the world. He was an international water expert, and he said we had the best water management. Later, in 2007, John Howard as Prime Minister and Malcolm Turnbull as water minister introduced the Water Act 2007.</para>
<para>As has been repeated four or five times now, the aims of the Water Act are: to include compliance with international agreements—what the hell has that got to do with our federal legislation?—and to change the Murray-Darling Basin Commission to the Murray-Darling Basin Authority. That destroyed cooperation that had successfully managed the basin with cooperation between states and the Commonwealth. Commonwealth departments started to dictate and started to lie. John Howard and Malcolm Turnbull's Water Act separated water allocations from land ownership—a catastrophe that has to be corrected.</para>
<para>The Water Act, to its credit, required a register of water trades, yet the Liberal-National and Labor parties have refused to install a water registry, even though it's required by the legislation known as the Water Act. I moved an amendment to require a water register to be developed. It was passed in the Senate and rejected in the lower house by the Liberals, Nationals and Labor Party.</para>
<para>We now see that another feature of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan is that it led to contradictions of science and nature. It completely reversed the science. This is a mess due to globalist policies, working through the Greens—the Howard-Turnbull Water Act of 2007. On his next visit to Australia in 2011, John Bristow proclaimed that Australia had slumped to the worst—the world's worst—water management for one reason: politically driven policy. He belled the culprit. The people in this parliament, the federal parliament, at federal level.</para>
<para>While mindful of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan's catastrophic foundation, for now, as a result of the catastrophic mish-mash of the latest legislation changes last week, we need to scrutinise the latest legislation while keeping in the back of our minds the mess that the Murray-Darling Basin Plan is. Only a committee inquiry can sort this out and ensure such a monumental, haphazard, dishonest change to a 10-year-old plan is the right thing to do. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Water Amendment (Restoring our Rivers) Bill 2023 was passed with substantial amendments; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the amendments were not reviewed by a committee and have not been approved by the Murray Darling Basin Ministerial Council.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That the following matters relating to the Water Amendment (Restoring our Rivers) Bill 2023 be referred to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee for review and report by the 30 March 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the operation, effectiveness and implications of the amendments made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) matters relating to the approval of the amendments by the Murray Darling Basin Ministerial Council; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) any related matters.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the motion by Senator Roberts. From the outset, I want to thank Senator Roberts for bringing forward this motion. It is vitally important, as Senator Roberts says, that we do understand the impact that the Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill 2023 will have on our regional communities. The fact is that this impact was not adequately assessed through the Senate committee process and that the Senate committee refused, even after my request, to actually take the committee to regional communities that would be impacted by the outcomes of this bill. Despite that committee then making recommendations through the main committee report that, yes, the bill be passed with amendments, it did not outline what those amendments were, what they would mean or how they had been given due consideration. What we then went through last week was a series of amendments coming through this place. Some of those amendments were still being negotiated after the bill had been introduced into this place. They were being drafted as we were having our second reading debates. Further amendments were still being negotiated after we had entered the committee stage and had not been circulated when we entered into the committee stage. So anyone who thinks that this chamber was able to give due consideration to those amendments and what they meant for our Murray-Darling communities has been seriously misled by anyone who purports to know exactly what happened. I want to give one example of that. That is this question of whether or not the Commonwealth can now lease water either from a farmer or to a farmer and whether that leasing arrangement contributes to the water recovery targets under the bill.</para>
<para>There has been correspondence between Minister Plibersek and Senator David Van from Victoria. This correspondence has now been distributed widely amongst stakeholders and it's flying around, so I feel fairly confident that I can actually refer to this correspondence. In that correspondence the minister said, 'I am advised that leased water will only count'—to a target—'if an entitlement is transferred to the Commonwealth and the water is contracted before the 31 December 2027 deadline.' Some people read that and interpret that as the lease arrangement will only contribute to a water recovery target if the Commonwealth purchases the water, the water is transferred to the Commonwealth before the December deadline and then, through some form of an arrangement, is leased back to the farmer.</para>
<para>Having read that, I obviously had some questions. I asked in the committee stage: can the government clarify for me if the leases form part of water recovery totals and which way they work? I was told that the act already indicates that the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder can hold rights as a lessee, which is true. I then went further to ask if it would contribute to the 450 target and I got read word for word the response I just quoted from Minister Plibersek's office.</para>
<para>Given that Senator Van has significant interest in this area as well, he also came in to ask for clarity about the leasing arrangements. It was a very confusing exchange in its entirety. Leasing is one of the tools in relation to the 450, but we never got clear whether the leasing is a one-way agreement or not. This is why we need to support this reference to a committee. These sorts of questions need to be thoroughly investigated so that communities can understand the implications of this bill.</para>
<para>A further issue that the minister referred to in her correspondence with Senator Van was the supply and constraints projects. These projects are controversial and have been controversial from the get-go because these projects make the difference between someone being able to actively managing their farmland and them having to enter an agreement to enable the Commonwealth to flood their productive land at a whim. There is no clarity of what the government's water amendment bill means to the supply and constraints projects. It is discussed in a no-regrets manner—the MDBA will write a road map as to how to do it. But we are not convinced.</para>
<para>There are also the social and economic considerations. The minister has said: 'Yes, we'll develop a structural adjustment package. We won't tell you how much might be in the package. We won't tell you how any such funds will be distributed. We won't tell you how they will be assessed.' In fact, there was even a suggestion that impacted communities themselves will have to prove what the negative social and economic impacts on their community are. Can you imagine that? That would mean in my home town the Edward River Council having to undertake a social and economic impact assessment to prove that the loss of up to 100 jobs at the Deniliquin rice mill, because of the reduction in rice deliveries year on year, was a direct result of water buybacks and water leaving our district. Why should it be up to communities to prove that? The burden of proof, the onus of proof, should be on the government. They should have to prove they are not having negative social and economic impacts.</para>
<para>But there's no such suggestion, and there is no clarity. This is why we absolutely need to support Senator Roberts's motion for a referral. We need to understand as well what the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council means. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>94</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>94</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That on Tuesday, 5 December 2023—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the hours of meeting be 9.30 am till adjournment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the routine of business from 9.30 am till 1.30 pm be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) consideration of the Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023, with time allotted for the remaining stages as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) second reading—1 hour, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) questions on all remaining stages put at 11.30 am;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) government business only,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) at midday, Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) government business only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the routine of business from not later than 5.30 pm be government business only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the questions be put on the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill, as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at 6.30 pm—second reading, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) at 8.30 pm—all remaining stages;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) after consideration of the Nature Repair Market Bill 2023 and a related bill has concluded, or at 8.30 pm, whichever is earlier, the questions on all remaining stages of the following bills be put:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) Treasury Laws Amendment (Making Multinationals Pay Their Fair Share—Integrity and Transparency) Bill 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) paragraphs (b), (d) and (e) operate as a limitation of debate under standing order 142;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) divisions may take place after 6.30 pm; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the Senate adjourn without debate after consideration of the bills has concluded.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I withdraw the motion that I had moved that was before the Senate and due for consideration again at 6.15. Secondly, I move an amendment to Senator Wong's motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Omit paragraph (d).</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment as moved by Senator Birmingham be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:16]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>28</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Sharma, D.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                <name>Wong, P.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the motion as moved by Senator Wong be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>95</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>95</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>95</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to finish my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was saying, we need to understand the arrangements of the amendments that have been undertaken and the views and considerations of the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council. Indeed, I have had an order for the production of documents, notice of motion No. 318, that was originally tabled in September. As a courtesy, I was finally delivered some of those documents last Friday. Some of the requests in that order of the production of documents were to seek an understanding of the arrangements entered into by the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council and the advice or correspondence that had been undertaken by the MDBA or the department and the government in entering those agreements.</para>
<para>Interestingly, next to that request for the order of the production of documents, I got a big fat zero. That raises the question: did the government not seek advice before announcing on 22 August this year that she had reached an agreement with New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia and the ACT for the Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill 2023? Did she not seek any advice and just enter that agreement with those jurisdictions without referring to her department or the subject experts? Or do I take it that the department has just chosen to ignore the order of the production of documents and is not providing the advice they gave to the minister? Either way, it is only fair that this chamber understands what that agreement means. As part of this referral, one of the terms of reference that Senator Roberts has included is matters relating to the approval of the amendment by the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council.</para>
<para>We also know that Victoria has not approved or agreed to the water amendment bill. Victoria has stood fast in defence of their communities, so we also need to understand what that means. How can we have a Basin Plan without a jurisdiction and without one of the largest water users in the basin coming on board? What restrictions will there be on the rollout of things like the structural adjustment package and the leasing that I raised earlier? And how will the water recovery be made? In her correspondence with Senator Van, the minister also talks at length about her proposal to actually publish—basically, for want of a better word—a water recovery strategy. She will publish a public implementation schedule for the recovery of the 450 by 30 June next year. But how is she going to develop that public implementation schedule? What consultations will she have in devising that?</para>
<para>Last week, I and my colleagues held a press conference on the passage of the bill, outlining our disappointed that, in all of the amendments we considered, we did not include a robust socioeconomic test.</para>
<para>We did not amend to maintain the cap on buyback, and we did not get over the line a requirement to undertake a review and evaluate how to account for complementary measures—things like fishways, cold-water pollution management, riparian vegetation management and other things that deliver environmental outcomes on the ground.</para>
<para>In that press conference, I called on the government to, in developing their implementation schedule, please get together a committee of wise heads. Call in food processors, food manufacturers and the unions that represent those workers. I never thought I'd have to tell the Labor Party to consult with the unions, but that's what I'm doing. Call in the farming sector and, importantly, local government, and listen to them and their ideas of what a water recovery implementation schedule should look like. At the very least, give them the decency of talking to them then, because we know you didn't talk to them when drafting the water amendment bill. We know consultation was a series of four invite-only seminars to talk only about schedule 3 and an online webinar—one online webinar for the millions of people that live in the Murray Darling Basin, the small farm businesses, the food processors, the dairy manufacturers, and all of those people impacted by this bill.</para>
<para>At the very least, form that committee. I urge the Senate to support this motion so we can have a proper inquiry into the implications of the amendments that were rammed through this place without sufficient debate last week.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This has involved many months of stakeholder consultation and negotiations with basin states to land the agreement that basin water ministers announced on 22 August 2023. Minister Plibersek has toured the basin five times, and the government has held almost 700 consultation activities—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>including workshops, round tables and public webinars. Do you want to hear this? This is what this is about, isn't it? The department undertook a five-week public consultation process seeking options to deliver the Basin Plan from 29 May to 3 July 2023, with 131 submissions received. The Water Amendment (Restoring Our Rivers) Bill 2023 was the fruit of this painstaking work.</para>
<para>The bill is consistent with the agreement of basin water ministers and is based on wide consultation. It provides more time, more options, more money and more accountability. It has been scrutinised by the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, which received 124 submissions and held two extended public hearings in Canberra on 31 October and 1 November 2023. Overall, the committee heard from over 100 individual witnesses, spanning 45 organisations. The bill as introduced provides for a greater transparency and accountability, and further amendments increase this even further. Annual reports were tabled to parliament on water recovery progress, consideration of socioeconomic impacts on voluntary water purchase programs, environmental releases from the Snowy scheme, and engagement with First Nations in the basin. A third, independent review of the Water for the Environment Special Account is due in September 2025, including: community assistance funding; an independent audit of water allocated to the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder; and a public tracking mechanism on the department's website of progress against milestones set out in a public implementation schedule. We are mandating a range of consideration in the 2026 Basin Plan review, including First Nations water issues, water resource plans and climate change. Further review of these matters is simply just another delay tactic from those who do not support the full delivery of the Basin Plan.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I just put on the record that I support the delivery of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan in full, so any suggestion by those opposite that that's not the case is vagrantly trying to bill me incorrectly. So I just want to be very, very clear I support the Murray-Darling Basin Plan in full.</para>
<para>But I also support the Murray-Darling Basin Plan delivered under the terms and conditions that were agreed to in this place back when we had bipartisan support for the Murray-Darling Basin Plan implementation—not the political stitch that's being caused by this particular bill that we are talking to here. For the minister to stand up—clearly she's been given talking points by someone else—and suggest that somehow we are standing in the way of the delivery here is just completely ridiculous. This has been stuffed through this place at a rate of knots. It was guillotined without us having any opportunity to be able to do broader consultation. I would just like to say that: it doesn't matter how many times you say something that is factually incorrect, it doesn't make it correct.</para>
<para>The biggest concern that we have, and Senator Davey put this on the record very articulately during the actual bill itself and again in her contribution to this motion by Senator Roberts, is that there has been no real consultation. You cannot possibly look Australians in the face and say you've consulted about something when you have blatantly refused to look at the people and tell the people to their face that they are going to be majorly and negatively impacted by the decisions that are contained in this bill.</para>
<para>It was the absolute height of contempt when we sought in this place to have the water bill referred to committee, so that the committee was able to go and consult, to only hold hearings in Canberra! If ever there was a Canberra focused, Canberra-centric government it's got to be this one here. The reality is that there isn't a lot of impact on the Murray-Darling Basin here in Canberra, with the exception that it relies on the system for its water, but it doesn't rely on the system to grow food and it doesn't rely on the system to grow fibre. So I would say that only holding hearings in Canberra has got to be one of the most contemptuous things I have ever seen, because we know that river communities are really upset. They are worried about the impact of the changes that are contained in this bill. I think the government should have the guts to turn up and face those communities and hear what their concerns are directly from them.</para>
<para>I commend the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee, headed up by Senator Canavan, who took their committee out—actually, it might have been the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Backbench committee.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>backbench committee—into the rural and regional communities and into my hometown of Renmark. They went in there and they talked to the irrigators in Renmark and many other places along the basin to hear firsthand what the likely implications of this bill would be on their communities. I have to say, it is quite extraordinary to think that we have got a bill here that has got no input whatsoever from those communities.</para>
<para>The thing that's more terrifying is when I was questioning the minister, when this bill was in this place, about the impact on these communities they had absolutely no idea because the government hasn't modelled this. They've gone and put in a bill in here that has taken out a very important protection provision for our communities, which was agreed to in a bipartisan way, and that is that there was to be no socioeconomic detriment by the recovery of the 450 gigalitres of up water that was agreed as part of the additional component of the plan for South Australia. That was a very important provision, because it meant you just couldn't go in there and take water away from people who were being forced to sell by their banks. You couldn't just go in and rip up pieces of a community and leave them with a footprint that wasn't big enough to support their infrastructure. You couldn't completely decimate one community. You actually had to look at the whole socioeconomic impact of a community before water was taken out of it. So you would have thought when those opposite admitted that the change on this would have a detrimental impact on river communities they might have quantified what that impact might have been. They admitted they hadn't.</para>
<para>Not only were they fudging the fact that they didn't know what the answer was; they actually flat-out admitted (a) that it was going to have a detrimental impact on river communities and (b) that they had done no modelling whatsoever to understand the magnitude of it.</para>
<para>I would say that that shows a second level of contempt for our river communities. But it also shows contempt for all Australians. The cold, hard reality of removing massive amounts of water from consumptive use out of the system is that you will see a reduction in the agriculture that is produced, and inevitably the good old 101 of supply and demand means that Australia's beautiful clean, green fresh produce—our fruit, our vegetables and many other things that are grown the length and the breadth of the basin—are inevitably going to be more expensive on our supermarket shelves, which makes it more expensive in our restaurants and more for anybody wanting to get access in Australia. Right in the middle of a cost-of-living crisis, you would think that this government would be trying to do everything it possibly could to not push up prices. It also makes it less competitive overseas, because we rely very much on export, so of course we're are at the whim of world prices. If our prices of production in Australia are so much higher, it puts us at a competitive disadvantage in the overseas market.</para>
<para>Also, this removed the cap on buybacks. We already know that buybacks have a serious detrimental impact on our communities. We've seen it in the water that's already been achieved in the buybacks so far. Some 1,250 gigalitres of water has been bought back out of our river communities. But in the absence of understanding what the long-term impact of that is, it seems very stupid for us to go back into the market to buy back before we've exhausted all less-lazy options. And make no mistake: going in and buying back water, buying back entitlement, is the laziest way that you can get water. There are so many other ways that this government could have a look at, and we were certainly looking at them when we were in government, to get access to water.</para>
<para>But we need to make sure the Murray Darling Basin commission itself, and the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder, are actually committed to finding alternative ways to get water. One such suggestion would be looking at urban and industrial water. We could get Adelaide off the Murray River and start possibly start the de-sal plant as well as urban and industrial water so that we're doing capture and storage so that the water can be re-used within Adelaide, which my home town of Renmark did a thousand years ago. We started using recycled water to make sure we were putting it on our town gardens and the like. So, there is nothing new about recycling urban and industrial water. We have not seen any enthusiasm whatsoever from any of our capital cities, or cities that rely on the river, to go down that pathway.</para>
<para>We also know that the CEWH very rarely uses their water. You don't need to use the entire amount of the water that has been indicated—the 3,200, as the full plan delivery—every year. But because the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder holds it, it basically never gets put back into consumptive use, because it's just too hard. There are suggestions put forward about ways in which the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder could have a covenant over potential lease of that water that allows the water to remain in the hands of the irrigators, allows the irrigators to keep their entitlement and to keep growing food in the years when that water isn't required for environmental purposes. Let's make no mistake: the river system is one of wetting and drying. You do not need all the water every year. But given the way this bill operates and the lack of clarity we have about what a held environmental water entitlement might be into the future, it looks very likely that the CEWH is just going to hold the water, and that water will be completely and utterly lost to agricultural and horticultural production into the future.</para>
<para>A number of questions were put to the minister last week during the debate and the committee stages of this bill, and none of them were answered. We could not get the officials to give us any indication about what would be considered in when it came to held environmental water. This is one of the cornerstones of this piece of legislation, and they don't know potentially what could be in, in terms of particular arrangements around water instruments.</para>
<para>It just seems to me, once again, that it's all about headlines. They're rushing the bill through to say: 'Tick! We've moved on the Murray-Darling Basin.' But there's been no thought whatsoever for the absolutely devastating consequences that this is going to have on our communities or even looking at anything innovative. The really shameful thing is that this government has had a proposal for months. For months and months, they've had a proposal that would allow the water to remain in consumptive use apart from the years when it is identified that that extra water might be needed.</para>
<para>The other thing, too, is that the government needs to come clean with us about how much of the Commonwealth environmental water holdings are being used every year. They will always say they want more water, but let's actually have a look at what the environmental outcomes are that they are trying to achieve and let's have a look at how much water they need and when they need that water before they go back into the market and rip more water out of our river communities.</para>
<para>It is really sad that this is just another example of another bill that is all headline and has completely forgotten the impact of the details that sit under it. There has been no transparency, because we don't know the details about what will be considered as held environmental water. In the absence of that, this bill could pretty much do anything in relation to getting that water. We know that this government will always revert to the lazy options because it doesn't care what happens in the country; it just wants to have a tick in the cities.</para>
<para>Secondly, the bill has had no scrutiny. We saw debate on this bill get cut so that we couldn't debate them to the fullest extent. We got no answers when we were asking really important questions about this bill. So we were denied proper scrutiny. The government guillotined the bill and denied us proper scrutiny because the minister wouldn't answer the questions, somewhat like this morning. We couldn't get an answer out of the minister about a bill before this chamber this morning.</para>
<para>Finally, I'll respond to some comments made in the contribution of the duty minister a minute ago before I rose to speak on this bill that Minister Plibersek has made seven trips—or however many it was—to the basin. I say that you can make seven fly-ins, touch the ground, say, 'G'day,' and then fly out or you can actually get into the community and have lunch or dinner with these people or go out to their properties and talk to them about the impacts this is likely to have on their properties. Then you can go into the town and talk to the community there. You can talk to the shop and business owners and let them tell you what happened last time we had major buybacks coming out of the community.</para>
<para>Don't forget that, the further you get into this, the more impactful that water extraction and taking the water out of productive use is going to be. The first amount of water that we sought through buybacks was very damaging to our community. Also, it was done in a way that allowed quite innovative mechanisms to achieve that water in terms of efficiencies measures that were put in place throughout the system. Those efficiency measures are becoming harder and harder to put in place, so we have to be more innovative about how we pursue this. I would just say that the lack of preparedness to be innovative about how we secure this water is extremely disappointing because it shows this government just does not care about river communities. We have a minister who has not bothered to go out there and find out for herself what the impact on these communities is. If she did go out to those communities, she would be compelled by the stories that they would tell her about the unbelievable impact of taking potentially up to 750 more gigalitres out of the Murray-Darling system and out of consumptive use. Even though the minister had no idea when I asked her questions last week about what that means, 750 gigalitres of long-term average yield equates to probably well over 1,000 actual gigalitres of water entitlement. We're talking about well in excess of 10 to 15 per cent more of existing water that could potentially be taken out of the system on the back of the changes that are contained in this legislation.</para>
<para>I commend Senator Roberts for coming in here and trying to have this referred off for greater scrutiny because, if we do go for greater scrutiny, the government will have to face up to the fact that this bill is going to have a major impact on our river communities. It will push up the price of food and it will destroy the community that I live in.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to speak in favour of this motion. One of the things that we lack in this chamber is the use of measurements; in particular, numbers. When it comes to the Lower Lakes, I think we need to look at some facts and figures to put things into context. I'd like to thank the stakeholders who gave me these numbers last week, because when you hear these figures you'll actually understand how unproductive and insane the Murray-Darling Basin Plan is.</para>
<para>The surface area of the Lower Lakes is 200,000 acres. That is a massive property. I come from a large property about 150,000 acres in Western Queensland. I know how big that is, and to think that that is the size of the surface area of the Lower Lakes. They hold 1,924 gigalitres of water, and approximately half of it evaporates every year, so in the Lower Lakes we are losing about 865 gigalitres every year to evaporation.</para>
<para>But here's the thing: there are only 166 licence holders in that lower basin—the lower part of the Murray River in southern South Australia, not in northern South Australian near Renmark—and they use only 21 gigalitres. We let 865 gigalitres go to the Lower Lakes and evaporate every year so that a small number of farmers can use 21 gigalitres. That is completely insane. If you really want to fix this problem and get to keep more water in the Upper Murray and the Upper Darling, you're much better off building a lock at the top of the lake—a much deeper lock that can hold quite a bit water, with a much smaller surface area—that can be used for irrigation. You keep the fresh water apart from the salt water and you get rid of those lower barrages.</para>
<para>The other thing that I found out last week from these stakeholders, who were from around the Goulburn area, is that now, because of these so-called environmental flows, there is flooding in certain parts of the river in seven or eight of every 10 years. Normally, in Australia you get flooding, as we all know, a couple of times a decade. We are now getting constant flooding, almost every year, and of course that is destroying some of the surface area and the gum trees in the Murray-Darling Basin. I'm all for the idea of environmental flows, but you don't want these environmental flows actually destroying the environment.</para>
<para>There seems to be a bit of deja vu with the climate change thing. Everyone said, 'We need to get away from coal-fired power stations, so let's build renewables,' and renewables are destroying the environment. It looks like we are finding out now that these so-called environmental flows that come down the river just about every year, when they don't normally come down the river every year, are actually destroying part of the Murray and Goulburn. We need to have a much closer look at this.</para>
<para>I do support the motion. It's a very good idea, because we do not want our farmers going broke and closing down. The stakeholders I spoke to last week were indeed dairy farmers and other farmers on the basin who had lost their livelihoods.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was almost going to say that the government had taken a 'shoot first and ask questions later' approach to the Murray-Darling, but, while they've definitely done the former—they've taken a shot at Australian farmers—they actually haven't even bothered to ask the question later. They haven't done that part of it. They're just shooting wildly at Australian farming policy and our agricultural development without asking any questions or going out and talking to farming communities about the impact.</para>
<para>We've heard from other speakers how the government worked to ensure that the Senate inquiry into this bill held no hearings in parts of the Murray-Darling where farming occurs. The only hearing that was held was here in Canberra, which is notionally part of the Murray-Darling but is not really renowned for its strong farming community and is certainly not renowned as an economy based on the use of water for agricultural purposes. The government asked no questions. They didn't allow the Senate to get out there about the bill. Then they came into this place and moved a huge number of amendments to the original bill. I'm told by Senator Roberts there were 20-odd amendments here and 30-odd in the other place.</para>
<para>Those amendments haven't been subject to scrutiny or review.</para>
<para>We're only talking about our country's ability to grow food. It's not that important, is it! We're only talking about our ability to have food security for Australians. The Murray-Darling is our nation's food bowl. It produces over 40 per cent of our food. Over 70 per cent of our peaches, our apples and our oranges come from the Murray-Darling Basin. This is very, very important, and yet the government has not even gone to places like Griffith, Shepparton, Renmark, Deniliquin—where Senator Davey is from—or Moree, Dirranbandi or St George in Queensland. It hasn't gone to any of these places to actually work out what's going to be the impact on our ability to grow food, on the costs of manufacturing our food and on the price of food for everyday Australians. They haven't done that.</para>
<para>So I support Senator Roberts's motion, albeit that it is late to be doing this. We should have had this committee before passing the bill. It is still better, if you have a shot, to ask some questions—to ask some questions about whether those shots are actually effective, because certainly Australian agriculture and Australian farmers feel like they are under the gun from this government. They feel like they're in the government's sights. Almost everything the government is doing is about taking rights away from farmers, hurting farmers and making their life harder than it already is. It's a very hard life being a farmer, but this government is making it harder and harder. That's the feedback we're getting from farmers and it's the feedback from polls of farmers who don't support the government's agenda.</para>
<para>It's hard to identify anything positive at all that the government is doing to help and support farmers. They're taxing them more to pay for biosecurity and they're imposing more red tape and regulation on farmers. Here, they're taking away people's ability to grow food. They're stripping the economic rug out from under these communities. The government won't even give them the right to have their say to their nation's parliament and to the representatives of that parliament.</para>
<para>A regrettable decision was made not to have hearings out in the Murray-Darling. I think it was referenced by Senator Ruston, Mr Rowan Ramsey from the other place and me. Mr Ramsey is the chair of the coalition's agriculture backbench committee, and I'm the secretary. We took it on our own and said, 'Let's have our own hearings.' We don't have the resources of the Senate. I think we live streamed all of our discussions, but we didn't have the resources to transcribe them and those sorts of things. But we took it on our own to get out there and listen to people and to give them some say about what is going on. I want to give credit to our shadow water minister, Senator Perin Davey, who joined us for those visits, and to the local members of parliament like Sam Birrell, Tony Pasin, Anne Webster, Mark Coulton and Sussan Ley—I think I've got them all—who came to those hearings. I should say I think we had some senators there as well.</para>
<para>That was good. It wasn't as good as having a Senate inquiry, but having those discussions was worthwhile. We went to the Shepparton Preserving Company, where we heard in discussions with the head of SPC that the government's changes, the government's plans to buy that water from people, will force up their costs of buying water because less water will be available. The average cost of delivering water in the Shepparton district will be higher, so their costs will go up. And, if your costs go up, as the CEO of SPC said, they'll have to pass them on. That means higher prices for consumers for basic food items in their shops. We heard this story all around the place.</para>
<para>And multiple people in the basin are having to pay more for energy now because the government has mismanaged that issue. A lot of food production in the basin is very energy intensive, especially manufacturing, dairy and refrigeration for perishable goods. So they are having to pay higher prices. I've met three different businesses who have in the last year installed diesel generators not just to save them money; it's more to make sure they have a secure supply. They can't have their fridge go off during blackouts, which we're warned may happen this summer. So they've invested in that security at their own cost—adding more costs to their food production process by having diesel generators.</para>
<para>Some of those businesses are actually bidding to sell that diesel generation back to the energy regulator, AEMO, who are currently out there seeking secure energy supplies to try and gaffer-tape our electricity system back together in case we have blackouts this summer, as they've warned.</para>
<para>That warning was made a few months ago in an official report, the so-called Electricity Statement of Opportunities—the ESOO—outcome statement, and that warning made in the ESOO that we face blackouts this summer triggers this auction process to try and get reliable supplies of energy through the system.</para>
<para>Isn't it amazing that, if we go through summer without blackouts, it will be thanks to diesel generators running on imported fuel from overseas? Isn't it wonderful that the internal combustion engine will come back and save the day again? But it will be very high cost. It won't be that wonderful once our power bills turn up. Diesel generation is one of the more expensive types of power, especially where petrol prices are right now, and, of course, if you want to use these terms, it's the dirtiest power. It's even worse in terms of carbon emissions than coal, and yet the government will be relying on diesel generation to keep the lights on this summer. It's an absolute embarrassment. It's imposing more costs on our farmers and our farming communities, and that's why they're so frustrated with this government. This government has lost control and is doing nothing to help support their livelihoods and their jobs.</para>
<para>The least we could do for our farmers is to hold an inquiry. Let's have an inquiry. Let's get out there and go to these regional towns. Let's get out of this camera bubble and not just spend all our time here. Let's get out of the bush. It's not going to hurt you. There are no snakes out there that will bite you. You'll come back safe. There might be some people that are scared about that, but it will be okay. You can get a really good coffee in Griffith. Senator Perin Davey will be able to take you to Bertoldos. It's a beautiful place and a lovely bakery. There are lots of lovely places in regional Australia that I know Labor and the Greens are a little bit worried about going. So get out there and support this motion and listen to the Australian people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to thank Senator Roberts for this timely motion. Last week, we saw the legislation to cruel basin communities rammed through the Senate with substantial amendments, which were unable to be debated and were unable to be honestly and seriously considered and consulted by the people whose lives and livelihoods they will impact. It was almost the complete opposite of what this chamber, under our Constitution, was expected to deliver for the Australian people, which is a place of review and a place of consideration. It's why we have the opportunity to have a lot of say on bills. We have a rigorous committee stage. We have Senate inquiries. That gives the whole of the Australian public the opportunity to participate in democracy in a very, very unique way.</para>
<para>Last week, the Labor government, under Minister Plibersek's orders, sought to restrict transparency once again and restrict accountability for their decision-making and for the impacts. During the committee stages of that particular guillotine provision, we found that the government had done no modelling on the impacts of this bill on the lives and livelihoods of the millions of people who live in the basin. It is absolutely abhorrent that they would seek to implement such a Draconian piece of legislation without considering the social and economic impacts on the people they seek to do stuff to. They don't even have the respect to go out and talk to people they want to do stuff to. They just expect rural Australians to keep copping it in the neck, whether it's on live sheep exports, water policy, transmission lines or biosecurity levy. The fact that you'd actually tax the very people who are subject to a biosecurity breach just shows the level of disdain and distrust that this government has for the nine million people who don't live in capital cities.</para>
<para>I commend this motion. I commend Senator Roberts for making sure the Senate will do the work it has to do. We'll do the work that basin communities wanted it to do so that they can actually articulate the very specific impact that this piece of legislation will have, not just in the short term but over generations to come, not just to farmers but indeed to the many union members in those manufacturing and processing plants throughout the basin, and what it will do to our export tasks. I commend the motion to the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are there any further speakers on the motion? Then the question before us is that the reference be agreed to. Is a division required? It being past 6.30, we will defer the division until tomorrow.</para>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>101</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>101</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to standing order 77(3), I withdraw the government business notice of motion given earlier today by Senator Gallagher relating to the routine of business for tomorrow, in light of the motion passed by the Senate earlier this hour.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>101</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023, Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>101</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7083" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7084" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>101</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The committee is considering the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023 and a related bill. The question is that the bill stand as printed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—In respect of the Public Health (Tobacco and Other Products) Bill 2023, I move amendments (1) to (5) on sheet 2218, as revised, together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 3, page 3 (line 6), at the end of subclause (1), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (d) to combat the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Clause 3, page 3 (line 33), at the end of subclause (2), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; (m) establishing the Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Clause 4, page 4 (after line 28), after the paragraph beginning "A range of compliance", insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Act also establishes the Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Clause 8, page 7 (line 5) to page 11 (line 28), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Department of Home Affairs </inline>means the Department administered by the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">ITEC Commissioner</inline> means the Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Minister for Home Affairs </inline>means the Minister administering the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Border Force Act 2015</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">paid work </inline>means work for financial gain or reward (whether as an employee, a self-employed person or otherwise).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Page 173 (after line 26), after Chapter 6, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chapter 6A — Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 6A.1 — Introduction</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163A Simplified outline of this Chapter</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Chapter establishes the Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner, within the Australian Border Force which is part of the Department of Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner has the following functions:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) supporting the development and implementation of national strategies for the enforcement of illicit tobacco and e-cigarette product laws;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) advising on the development of new laws and strategies relating to the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) providing administrative and governance support for any intergovernmental responses to the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) preparing and publishing reports;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) other functions as are conferred on the Commissioner by a law of the Commonwealth;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) anything incidental or conducive to the performance of any of the above functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 6A.2 — Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163B Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) There is to be an Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Illicit Tobacco and E-cigarette Commissioner sits within that part of the Department of Home Affairs known as the Australian Border Force (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Border Force Act 2015</inline>).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163C Functions of the ITEC Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ITEC Commissioner has the following functions:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) supporting the development and implementation of national strategies for the enforcement of illicit tobacco and e-cigarette product laws;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) advising on the development of new laws and strategies relating to the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) providing administrative and governance support for any intergovernmental responses to the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the reporting functions described in section 163D.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) such other functions as are conferred on the ITEC Commissioner by the regulations, this Act or any other law of the Commonwealth;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) to do anything incidental or conducive to the performance of any of the above functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163D Reporting functions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner has the reporting functions described in this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Law enforcement reports</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) As soon as practicable after the end of each reporting period starting on or after the day this section commences, the ITEC Commissioner must prepare reports on the prevalence and consequences of the illicit tobacco and e-cigarette trade in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) As soon as practicable after the completion of a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (2), the report must be:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) published on a website maintained by the Department of Home Affairs; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) given to the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The ITEC Commissioner must be satisfied that a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (2) was prepared in collaboration with such Commonwealth, State and Territory agencies as the ITEC Commissioner considers appropriate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Excise and customs duty reports</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) As soon as practicable after the end of each reporting period starting on or after the day this section commences, the ITEC Commissioner must prepare reports on the estimated amount of evaded tobacco excise and customs duty resulting from the illicit tobacco and e-cigarette trade in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Without limiting subsection (5), a report prepared for the purposes of that subsection must include:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) estimates of the amount of imported and domestically produced illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products in Australia; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a comparison of the estimated amount of evaded tobacco excise and customs duty resulting from the illicit tobacco and e-cigarette trade in Australia, and the amount of excise and customs duty collected as a result of the legal trade in tobacco and e-cigarette products in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) As soon as practicable after the completion of a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (5), the report must be:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) published on a website maintained by the Department of Home Affairs; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) given to the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) The ITEC Commissioner must be satisfied that a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (5) was prepared in collaboration with the Australian Taxation Office.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Enforcement statistics reports</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) As soon as practicable after the end of each reporting period starting on or after the day this section commences, the ITEC Commissioner must prepare reports on enforcement statistics, and analysis of those statistics, relating to the illicit tobacco and e-cigarette trade in Australia, including detections and seizures of illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products, and associated arrests.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) As soon as practicable after the completion of a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (9), the report must be:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) published on a website maintained by the Department of Home Affairs; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) given to the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) The ITEC Commissioner must be satisfied that a report prepared for the purposes of subsection (9) was prepared in collaboration with the Australian Crime Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Tabling</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) The Minister for Home Affairs must cause a report given to the Minister under this section to be tabled in each House of the Parliament within 15 sitting days of that House after the report is given to the Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Definitions</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) In this section:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">reporting period</inline> means a period of 12 months starting on 1 July.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163E Application of finance law</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of paragraph (a) of the definition of <inline font-style="italic">Department of State </inline>in section 8 of the <inline font-style="italic">Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Act 2013</inline>, the ITEC Commissioner is prescribed in relation to the Department of Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: This means that the Commissioner is an official of the Department of Home Affairs for the purposes of the <inline font-style="italic">Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Act 2013</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163F Arrangements relating to staff of the Department of Home Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The staff assisting the ITEC Commissioner are to be APS employees in that part of the Department of Home Affairs known as the Australian Border Force (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Border Force Act 2015</inline>) whose services are made available to the ITEC Commissioner by the Secretary of the Department of Home Affairs, in connection with the performance of any of the ITEC Commissioner's functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) When performing services for the ITEC Commissioner, the persons are subject to the directions of the ITEC Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163G Other persons assisting the ITEC Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner may also be assisted by employees of Agencies (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">Public Service Act 1999</inline>) whose services are made available to the ITEC Commissioner in connection with the performance of any of the ITEC Commissioner's functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The ITEC Commissioner may, on behalf of the Commonwealth, make an arrangement with the appropriate authority or officer of:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a State or Territory government; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a State or Territory government authority;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">under which the government or authority makes officers or employees available to the ITEC Commissioner to perform services in connection with the performance of any of the ITEC Commissioner's functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) An arrangement under subsection (2) may provide for the Commonwealth to reimburse a State or Territory with respect to the services of a person to whom the arrangement related.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) When performing services for the ITEC Commissioner under this section, a person is subject to the directions of the ITEC Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163H Delegation by the ITEC Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner may, in writing, delegate all or any of the ITEC Commissioner's functions or powers under this Act to an SES employee, or an acting SES employee, in the Department of Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Sections 34AA to 34A of the <inline font-style="italic">Acts Interpretation Act 1901</inline> contain provisions relating to delegations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) In performing a delegated function or exercising a delegated power, the delegate must comply with any written directions of the ITEC Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163J Ministerial directions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Minister for Home Affairs may give the ITEC Commissioner directions about the way in which the Commissioner is to carry out any of the functions of the Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) However, the Minister for Home Affairs must not give directions about the content of any advice that may be given by the ITEC Commissioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A direction under subsection (1) must be in writing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The ITEC Commissioner must comply with a direction under subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) A direction under subsection (1) is not a legislative instrument.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) The Minister for Home Affairs must cause a copy of each direction given under subsection (1) to be tabled in each House of the Parliament as soon as practicable after giving the direction.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 6A.3 — Administration</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163K Appointment of the ITEC Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner is to be appointed by the Minister for Home Affairs by written instrument, on a full-time basis.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: The ITEC Commissioner may be reappointed: see section 33AA of the <inline font-style="italic">Acts Interpretation Act 1901.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The ITEC Commissioner holds office for the period specified in the instrument of appointment. The period must not exceed 5 years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163L Acting appointments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Minister for Home Affairs may, by written instrument, appoint a person to act as ITEC Commissioner:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) during a vacancy in the office of the Commissioner (whether or not an appointment has previously been made to the office); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) during any period when the Commissioner:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) is absent from duty or from Australia; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is, for any reason, unable to perform the duties of the office.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: For rules that apply to acting appointments, see sections 33AB and 33A of the <inline font-style="italic">Acts Interpretation Act 1901</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163M Remuneration</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner is to be paid the remuneration that is determined by the Remuneration Tribunal. If no determination of that remuneration by the Tribunal is in operation, the Commissioner is to be paid the remuneration that is prescribed by the regulations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The ITEC Commissioner is to be paid the allowances that are prescribed by the regulations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) This section has effect subject to the <inline font-style="italic">Remuneration Tribunal Act 1973</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163N Leave of absence</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner has the recreation leave entitlements that are determined by the Remuneration Tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Minister for Home Affairs may grant the ITEC Commissioner leave of absence, other than recreation leave, on the terms and conditions as to remuneration or otherwise that the Minister determines.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163P Engaging in other paid work</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ITEC Commissioner must not engage in paid work outside the duties of the Commissioner's office without the approval of the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163Q Other terms and conditions of appointment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ITEC Commissioner holds office on the terms and conditions (if any) in relation to matters not covered by this Act, that are determined by the Minister for Home Affairs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163R Resignation of appointment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The ITEC Commissioner may resign the Commissioner's appointment by giving the Minister for Home Affairs a written resignation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The resignation takes effect on the day it is received by the Minister for Home Affairs or, if a later day is specified in the resignation, on that later day.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">163S Termination of appointment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Minister for Home Affairs may terminate the appointment of the ITEC Commissioner:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) for misbehaviour; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if the Commissioner is unable to perform the duties of the Commissioner's office because of physical or mental incapacity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Minister for Home Affairs may terminate the appointment of the ITEC Commissioner if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Commissioner:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) becomes bankrupt; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) applies to take the benefit of any law for the relief of bankrupt or insolvent debtors; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) compounds with the Commissioner's creditors; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) makes an assignment of the Commissioner's remuneration for the benefit of the Commissioner's creditors; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Commissioner is absent, except on leave of absence, for 14 consecutive days or for 28 days in any 12 months; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the Commissioner engages, except with the Minister's approval, in paid work outside the duties of the Commissioner's office; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the Commissioner fails, without reasonable excuse, to comply with section 29 of the <inline font-style="italic">Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Act 2013</inline> (which deals with the duty to disclose interests) or rules made for the purposes of that section.</para></quote>
<para>The bill's digest states that this legislation doesn't address the growing and critical issue of illicit tobacco. The existence of a thriving black market for tobacco products—and vaping products, for that matter—completely undermines the effectiveness of the tobacco control that has been sought to be implemented by the measures and regulations that are contained in this bill. We know that the black market is accounting for significant growing numbers of cigarettes and tobacco that are consumed in Australia, although it appears as if the government is completely unaware of the quantum of that. Given I've got a new minister, I might ask him a question at the end of this.</para>
<para>We've got really serious concerns that the actions to double down on existing regulations in the absence of actually addressing the really, really serious issue before us of illicit and illegal tobacco fail to adequately address the concerns that many Australians have and the unbelievable impact that a growing black market by organised crime is having in this country. The difficulty of tracking and monitoring the number of smokers lost to the black market is a significant concern. Despite repeated requests this morning of the minister who was in the chair, I was unable to get any understanding about the quantum of that—oh dear! I'm not going to get the chance, because I've got the other minister back. Dang! The government must protect the community from illicit products. Many of them contain very harmful chemicals.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCarthy</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order: I'd just urge the senator to adhere to the standing order on putting into disrepute another senator in the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Would you care to withdraw the comment?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If the minister thinks that I was suggesting any disrepute, then, of course, I will withdraw.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Ruston. Please continue.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The thing that is particularly concerning is that many of these illicit products have harmful chemicals in them that would not pass muster under a legal regime. They are designed in a way that entices people, because they don't comply with plain packaging. So, unless we actually do something about enforcement—and we're not just talking about border enforcement; we have to address issues of tax avoidance, and we have to particularly address the issue of point-of-sale. This requires enforcement at all levels of government, and it requires enforcement in a coordinated way amongst various departments, because we know that there's more than one department in Canberra that is responsible for enforcement as it relates to illicit and illegal tobacco and other products, including vaping.</para>
<para>In line with this priority, the amendment that I have just moved, the coalition's amendment, will seek to establish a commissioner for illicit tobacco and e-cigarettes to make sure that we have a coordinated approach to how we address enforcement, to make sure that we are enforcing the development and implementation strategies that were agreed on, including the national illicit tobacco and e-cigarette strategy that was released by the government earlier this year, and to make sure that we have got strategies that are going to really address the illicit tobacco and e-cigarette market and, in doing so, develop a national framework so everybody knows what everybody else is doing.</para>
<para>In doing that, we can detect, deter, investigate and enforce the laws that relate to e-cigarettes.</para>
<para>That's what we are seeking to do, and I commend this to the chamber. It also provides, to enable with greater administration of government support, that national law enforcement is consistent. We also need to make sure our law enforcement agencies are properly supported in the implementation of the strategy. It's simply not good enough to have a strategy unless you've got a mechanism or a vehicle through which you're going to deliver it, and we seek for the commissioner to be that strategy.</para>
<para>Most particularly, we want to make sure reports are prepared and published on the website around issues of the prevalence and consequences of the illegal tobacco and e-cigarette trade in Australia. As we saw this morning, the government has got no idea what the illegal and illicit market is. We will be seeking for this agency to be able to gather the data to enable us to understand the magnitude and to see what are the mechanisms that are pushing people from the legal market into the illegal market—whether they are or whether they aren't. At the moment the lack of information we have means we are flying a bit blind on what the likely outcomes of this particular piece of legislation are likely to be. We believe that, until there is a comprehensive, coordinated national enforcement set of laws, strategies and framework, and a vehicle through which it can be delivered, we will continue to see the challenges we are seeing in the black market at the moment. We know the black market is getting bigger and bigger. Just about anybody who can provide you with any advice will tell you that we just haven't quantified it to this stage.</para>
<para>We are arguing that the biggest issue facing Australians and the biggest challenge to our health system in terms of the health outcomes of people who smoke cigarettes and vape is the lack of enforcement. I suggest to the government: if you want to retain any credibility in relation to protecting and pursuing real public health outcomes, it is absolutely imperative that you have a vehicle that is completely and utterly dedicated to and designed for addressing illicit and illegal tobacco in this country. In the absence of doing that, this particular bill is not worth the paper it's written on. I commend the amendments to the chamber.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Progressing further with the responses I gave the senator this morning in terms of the ATO and the Illicit Tobacco Taskforce, I say that the government supports the coalition's intention to combat the trade in illicit tobacco and e-cigarette products. The government is expanding compliance activities to address illicit tobacco, and we are working on finalising these details and will have more to say in the very near future.</para>
<para>This builds on existing significant investments the government has made in compliance measures, including as part of the October 2022-23 budget. The government extended the existing ATO shadow economy compliance program for a further three years from 1 July 2023. The ATO led program received $240 million in departmental funding from 2023-24 to 2025-26, with an estimated increase in tax receipts of $2.1 billion. The extension of the shadow economy program will enable the ATO to continue a strong and coordinated response to target shadow economy activity, including illicit tobacco, to protect revenue and level the playing field for those businesses that are following the rules.</para>
<para>As part of the 2023-24 budget the government also provided the ATO $223.9 million in funding to extend and merge the Serious Financial Crime Taskforce and the serious organised crime program over four years to 30 June 2027. This will maximise the disruption of organised crime groups, including those involved with illicit tobacco.</para>
<para>The Serious Financial Crime Taskforce and the serious organised crime program are currently separately funded ATO-led cross-agency collaborations between the ATO, national policing and other law enforcement and regulatory agencies targeting serious and organised crime groups, and serious financial crime and tax evasion. The government estimates that this will bring in $753.9 million in revenue and $279.5 million in receipts in the four years to 30 June 2027, including $32.7 million of GST paid to the states and territories.</para>
<para>The Illicit Tobacco Taskforce continues to combat illicit tobacco and brings together capabilities of the ATO, the ABF, the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, the Australian Transaction Reports and Analysis Centre, the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions and the Department of Home Affairs. In the 2023-24 income year there have been 69 seizures and convictions so far, as at 30 September 2023, with an estimated excise duty value of $18 million. This strong comprehensive action, complemented by enhanced compliance and enforcement activity across all governments, will turn the tide.</para>
<para>I am aware that Senator Canavan raised this in his questions earlier. The vaping reforms were the focused of a joint meeting of all Australian health and police ministers on 23 November. At this important meeting, ministers agreed to task officials with developing a national enforcement framework for vaping products, to stamp out unlawful vapes in the community and prevent illegal markets from emerging. It was agreed that a multi-agency national vaping working group be established to oversee development and implementation of the national enforcement framework. All of this comprehensive action, complemented by enhanced compliance and enforcement activity across all governments, will turn the tide against the rising use of vapes by young Australians and will reduce overall tobacco use. So the government supports the coalition's intentions.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the end of the debate before, a number of accusations were made about the National Party, me and others. I just want to reply to those things and to bring people up to speed as to where we're at. Senator Steele-John made a big deal of the National Party taking donations from what he calls big tobacco. I hope we have a debate about the merits, not the motives, of policies. If your arguments are good enough against something, you should be able to argue that what someone is saying is wrong; that what I'm proposing here through this committee stage—creating a legal regulated vaping market—will be bad for people and will be bad for the country. You can make those arguments; that's fine. But whenever we start resorting to saying, 'You've bad motives and you're only doing this because of X, Y and Z,' we can't really have a debate then. We're trying to read people's minds, and that will mean that we'll never have a useful, constructive debate.</para>
<para>Two, of course, can play this game. I could of course—and I don't—make the claim that the Greens political party take millions of dollars in donations from renewable energy. They do; that's a matter of record. They just happen to also support large-scale government subsidies for renewable energy—for the same companies that they take millions of dollars of donations from. I don't say that they do that because of the donations they take. I don't want to engage in debate about their motives, because I'd much prefer to point out how hopeless renewable energy is. It's terrible. It's destroying our country. It's deindustrialising our nation. I don't need to question their motives. I'll debate the merits, not the motives, of what the Greens are proposing.</para>
<para>The very fact that the Greens have not been able to question the merits of my proposals here and have had to resort to personal attacks on people's motives shows that they don't really have good arguments about why we shouldn't create a legal regulated market. If they did, they would make those arguments. But their weakness, their lack of strong points of view here, is shown by them resorting to base personal attacks on people's motives, integrity et cetera rather than actually pointing out the flaws in any process.</para>
<para>Regardless of that, I'll extend a little bit of an olive branch to my colleague Senator Steele-John. I welcome his viewpoint, which I think I recall. I apologise: the debate was now that many hours ago. I'm not recounting it verbatim but I believe that Senator Steele-John did indicate that the Greens political party will be looking at considering issues around vaping in the legislation to come forth next year from this government. I didn't hear Senator Steele-John dismiss any idea that there should be, maybe, some consideration here. We heard earlier from Senator Shoebridge his view that we should have a legal cannabis market, a regulated cannabis market. I'm not going to go through all my views on that, but clearly, if you're going to support that and you think adult Australians should be able to freely purchase cannabis in this country, I find it hard to believe that you would not also similarly support an Australians' right to vape liquid nicotine. It seems completely nonsensical that you would not have a similar arrangement.</para>
<para>As I say, I don't get engaged in personal attacks about the Greens' motives. They are free to put forward whatever policies they like in this place, and of course, I'm free to disagree with them and point out their flaws. I'm happy to have respectful conversations and constructive dialogue about how we can make sure that adult Australians are not turned into criminals in this country just for having an addiction to nicotine and for wanting to choose to assuage that addiction through a product that is much less harmful for them than smoking and much, much cheaper.</para>
<para>I also want to reply to some comments made by Senator Marielle Smith. I generously gave her the call—some Labor senators hadn't had the call for a while—and she proceeded to attack me in response to that generosity, but that's okay. Senator Smith's view was that I'm a bad person because I meet with big tobacco companies. Apparently, we signed some agreement with the WHO that we're not allowed to meet people! I wasn't a signatory to that agreement. I can't remember signing anything, and I'm certainly not going to listen to the WHO on matters, given their record on coronavirus, which was absolutely shocking. Don't forget they originally told us that coronavirus could not be transferred to people by person-to-person transmission. Do you remember that, Senator Roberts? They told us not to close our borders with China. Remember that? That was great from the WHO. So I'm certainly not going to listen to that body. Regardless, I didn't sign that agreement.</para>
<para>It surprised me—I didn't realise—that government officials apparently don't meet with so-called big tobacco companies. But hang on a second—if these people are so bad, if they are selling such a terrible product, why don't we just ban it? If it's so bad, you could ban smoking. You could do that. Instead of this tobacco control, just bring in a tobacco prohibition bill if it's so bad. Apparently, these people are very bad people, but we're going to allow them to sell a legal product. It's a legal product that is allowed. Not only that—we don't finish there—we're going to raise billions of dollars of excise from the sale of these products. In the break, I checked the figures. Apparently, the government says it doesn't have a relationship with big tobacco. It doesn't meet with them. It doesn't recognise them. Yet it will get $12.9 billion from big tobacco this year in excise. That is some relationship, isn't it? That is a pretty big relationship. The government gets $13 billion a year in excise from big tobacco, but it says: 'We can't meet with them. We can't even talk with them.' That money might be why the government doesn't want to ban tobacco. That might be why the government doesn't want to have a legal vaping market. If people are allowed to vape, they won't be paying $13 billion in excise to the government. Maybe this is all just about fleecing Australian people who are addicted to nicotine. It has nothing to do with health issues at all. It's the government that is addicted. It is addicted to massive revenue streams from big tobacco. Maybe it is about that.</para>
<para>We also learned from Senator Smith's contribution why the government can't seem to control the illegal chop-chop market. We have a massive problem with this. Senator Ruston has gone over this in great detail, and I applaud her on her amendment that was just passed to this bill. We have a massive issue with this. This market has grown from something like 10 per cent a few years ago to recent estimates that about a quarter of Australians who are smoking are now getting cigarettes illegally. We don't really know. The government doesn't really know, of course, because it's an illegal market, but certainly there has been significant growth in chop-chop, in criminal activity around this trade, over the past decade.</para>
<para>Maybe one of the reasons this has happened is that, apparently, and I am going to get to a question—I'm going to ask the minister whether the government meets with Philip Morris or any of these companies.</para>
<para>Because if you want to control the illicit market, wouldn't you talk to the people in the legal market about what is going on, what the intelligence is and what's happening? They probably know something about that. I've got no problem saying I talk to them; I do. They're a legal company in this country. I'll talk to anybody. I talk to Green activists, I talk to everybody. I'm happy to—it's my job as a senator. They tell me stuff about the illicit tobacco market—it might be right or it might be wrong but I'm certain they would have some intelligence about what's happening, given that they're the ones operating in this market and their customers have some interactions with these products. I ask the government: if you're not meeting with them, how the hell do you know what's going on with the illicit tobacco market? Are you at all serious about trying to control that market if you're not getting market intelligence from the people that are operating in that market? It's absolutely absurd. It's like saying we want to try to control alcohol consumption but we're not going to talk to pubs or bottle shops—we're just going to operate in some sort of vacuum when nobody knows what's going on. It's ridiculous.</para>
<para>I would like to know what exactly the government is doing to control illicit tobacco, how they find out what's happening in the market and who they talk to, because it seems to me this is a big reason why. We are resting on our laurels here as a country. We keep talking about what a great country we've been in controlling smoking rates, and there's no doubt that's true, but we're living off the legacy of former governments who have done that. The reality is that over the past decade smoking rates have not fallen that much—they've largely plateaued—yet they have fallen significantly in other countries that have allowed a legal vaping market to emerge. We are missing the boat here on what we should be doing to further reduce the terrible habit that is smoking and the terrible diseases and health outcomes that come from smoking tobacco, which is very different from liquid nicotine.</para>
<para>What are the government doing here? Do they actually speak to people in the market? How do they know what's happening with illicit tobacco if they're not talking to the legal entities they tax and raise money from in the market itself?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Canavan, for your question. As a reminder to the Senate, the coalition did sign up to the WHO framework in 2005, and we certainly abide by the article, so I think it's really important that the Senate is aware that both the coalition and this government are abiding by the WHO framework.</para>
<para>Let's remember that the debate before the Senate is about cigarettes, not vaping, and the bills before us is about one thing: ensuring plain packaging—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, let me finish, Senator Canavan. We all sat in silence and listened to you. These bills capture vaping advertising—otherwise, they are exclusively about cigarettes. There was no doubt that the witnesses and submissions that came before the inquiry also included those from the tobacco industry. So, senators, let's remember: the piece of legislation before us has gone through the Senate committee, and all of those involved in the industry have had an opportunity to speak to this piece legislation.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will just point out that the minister's claim that the only part of the bill that deals with e-cigarettes is in the provisions to ban advertising of e-cigarettes, on page 3 of the bill, in the objects of the bill, under the heading 'means for achieving objects', paragraph 3(2)(a) says it is also about 'limiting the exposure of the public to communications, recommendations or actions that may persuade people to … start vaping or continue vaping'. Paragraph (3)(2)(b) reads 'reducing the appeal of regulated tobacco items and e-cigarette products to consumers'. The objects are full of references to e-cigarettes. So if you're going to put e-cigarettes in the objects of your bill, it's perfectly relevant to ask questions and raise points about e-cigarettes. Your bill wants to try and reduce the use of vaping. One of the objects of the bill is also to reduce the use of smoking, and I am of the view that one way we can do that is to seek and encourage people to switch from smoking to e-cigarettes, which are much better for their health.</para>
<para>Can the minister outlined where in the WHO framework it says that politicians can't meet with big tobacco? Because I've had a look at it, and it seems to me—and I have been told by others—that it does give scope for governments to meet with tobacco companies.</para>
<para>I think they call it the 'tobacco industry' in terms of big tobacco. You can meet with the tobacco industry for the purposes of public policy, which makes sense given the points I was making earlier. Can the minister outline exactly where in the convention it says we cannot meet at all with such bodies?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can certainly point out to Senator Canavan in actually repeating what I said earlier that we know that the tobacco industry gave evidence to the Senate inquiry and, in terms of being in line with article 5.3, public officials interact with the tobacco industry when and to the extent strictly necessary for effective negotiation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Canavan</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So it says you can meet with them.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, public officials can, and I did say that in my earlier response.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Canavan</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm a public official.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In fact, you could get the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> on that, Senator Canavan. If you had been listening, you would know I actually read from the document that outlines all of that. We have gone through this. I have reiterated that this is about plain packaging. The debate before the Senate is about cigarettes, not vaping. I do believe I have answered these questions.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd just like this right of reply. You had a Labor senator get up and call into question the integrity of coalition politicians for meeting with big tobacco. That's what happened. That's what happened a few hours ago. No number of weasel words will remove from the record that your own senator got up and called into question the integrity of Liberal and National politicians for having the temerity to meet with the tobacco industry. Now you have just admitted under questioning that the WHO convention framework that you referenced says that public officials—and I'm a public official; I am under all the legislation—can meet with the tobacco industry for the purposes of public policy as I just said. So you need to be called out for this because you can't come into this place and call into question others' integrity without being held to account. You were misleading the Senate before by doing so. You were absolutely misleading the Senate by—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCarthy</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Temporary Chair, on a point of order: there was no misleading the Senate in this debate. Had Senator Canavan been listening to my previous response to Senator Smith he would then see the context in which I made those comments about the responsibilities of members of parliament and public officials.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Sullivan</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Temporary Chair, that is not a point of order. That is a debating point. The senator has the opportunity to refute what Senator Canavan has said when Senator Canavan no longer has the call. So to interrupt him in that way disrupts his ability to speak in this debate.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCarthy</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I do take umbrage with the fact that the comments were made about a senator who is not present who put a question earlier. So I would suggest that that same response is required in this situation.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We are bouncing around on an issue I was not in the chamber for. I think maybe having a look at the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> and checking the details of what has been said might be the way to go from here, Senator Canavan. Please advise if you are comfortable with that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just not quite clear. I would have thought I'm perfectly within my rights as a senator to say someone has misled the Senate—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Absolutely.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and then it is a matter for others to respond. The minister is right: Senator Smith is not here right now. But I know many times I have been completely trashed in the Senate when I've not been here. Sometimes when I'm leaving the building people are getting stuck into me. Sometimes when I'm leaving the chamber someone will get stuck into me. That's part and parcel of debate. I'm just making a point here that, in my view, Senator Smith and Senator McCarthy, who was not fulsome in her response to the Senate about the provisions in the WHO convention, were calling into question the integrity of Liberal and National politicians on this side. I think they have been adequately called out because now the minister is flailing around with points of order which are clearly not being upheld to try, as Senator O'Sullivan said, to interrupt the debate here. I'm happy to move on. I just wanted to make those points and to reply. I do have some other questions for the minister, but I realise Senator Roberts has been waiting patiently, so I'll come back after him.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, at the outset, let me say that One Nation does support the hard work that's been done to bring this together from many different bills, regulating smoking into one piece of legislation, and I compliment those who have produced a bill that includes the previous coalition government that started the work, yet that only extends to consolidating existing governance. Today my questions go to the actual measures being promoted in this bill. In my opinion we need to pick up the health agenda. I need to understand why the government is adopting a counterproductive strategy that undermines health and trust. My questions go to four topics—quitting smoking, the results of quitting-smoking campaigns, price increases on tobacco and vaping.</para>
<para>First question, Minister: the previous Labor government introduced measures that were designed to reduce smoking. These were putting scary photos on cigarette packs, reducing pack sizes, banning advertising and sponsorship and using plain packaging. Minister, what data do you have to support the idea these measures actually reduce smoking rates and that amplifying those measures will cause more people to quit smoking faster?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Roberts, for your question. The measures in the bill do aim to encourage people to give up smoking and to discourage people from taking up smoking in the first place—I think that's really important to remind the Senate about.</para>
<para>These measures are just one part of the comprehensive, evidence based approach to tobacco control in Australia, which includes the 2023-24 budget commitments to support education campaigns, improve cessation support and extend the successful Tackling Indigenous Smoking program.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I asked for the data. You didn't give me any. You said though, as quite often happens in this House, your policy is 'evidence based'. So let me ask a second question which relates to the effect of selective perception in respect of the use of scary photos to dissuade smoking. For clarity, selective perception is defined as:</para>
<quote><para class="block">the process by which we focus our attention on certain stimuli while ignoring stimuli that … contradicts our values and expectations. According to selective perception theory, we consciously and unconsciously filter out information.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, when scary photos were proposed there was a strong academic argument against their use on the basis that people would filter them out. Here we are, ten years on, promoting an extended use of scary photos—that's basically what your bill does. Minister, what work has the department done to prove scary photos are not being filtered out? Can you prove scary photos are not useless? I would like some data.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Did you say 'scary photos are not useless?' Was that the last bit of your question?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I said the scary photos have not been productive so far in accelerating any quitting-smoking campaign.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator. I could use personal anecdotal responses—but I won't—especially coming from our First Nations communities, about the impact that it has had on family members and others who have stopped smoking as a result of what they've seen. The impact of the bill will be evaluated in line with the Commonwealth Evaluation Policy. Evaluation measures are set out in the impact analysis prepared for this bill and will seek to measure declines in overall consumption.</para>
<para>Consideration of tobacco prevalence data—and I know you're always interested in data—is data from the National Health Survey, the National Drug Strategy Household Survey and the Australian Secondary Students' Alcohol and Drug Survey. I'm just reinforcing some of the data that I know that you're interested in. Other available sources may also be considered such as the data from Customs and the Australian Bureau of Statistics's state and territory government smoking-cessation surveys conducted by or for public health experts.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. You said, 'seek to measure,' implying in future. I asked for the past data on which this is based—current data. A literature review conducted by my staff has found many papers show a link between scary images and smokers being more scared. So far, so good.</para>
<para>They find that nonsmokers react to the images as expected while smokers filter the message, reducing the fear factor in whole or in part. This proves that selective perception is at least in play if not undermining the whole concept of scary pictures. In other words, smokers don't see the scariness in the scary pictures.</para>
<para>None of these studies show a direct causation between scary photos and smoking reduction. Minister, is this measure something that sounds good in theory but actually doesn't work in practice? Or hasn't anyone bothered to do the work to prove that it works?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Pratt</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek the call and say in answer to Senator Roberts that—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Pratt. Please resume your seat. Minister?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, these are probably some of the best questions I've had all day on this bill, so thank you for your interest in that. Scary photos: I think this is really important, because it comes to the heart of what this piece of legislation is all about—plain packaging, and the concerns that have been raised throughout the Senate inquiry. Perhaps I could refer to the previous answer, where I talked about the Australian Bureau of Stats as one of the areas that we go to for data. With scary photos, young people were less likely to be current daily smokers, at a rate of 7.1 per cent. Then in 2011-12 it was 16.5 per cent. Plain packaging came in in 2012, so we are conscious that there is strong correlation there.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let's get to the meat of the question, now that I understand that there is little data to back it up. The committee report makes this statement: 'According to the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, 11 per cent of Australians smoked tobacco daily in 2019, which is a decrease from 12.2 per cent in 2016.' This the same claim the minister made in his second reading speech. However, the 2019 National Drug Strategy Household Survey found that the figure for 'smokes every day' was 12.8 per cent, not 11 per cent—no drop. That data further shows that the figure for people who consider themselves to be a current smoker is 14.7 per cent. This is an increase in smokers, not a decrease. The minister may be using the 2020-021 survey, which does show that figure.</para>
<para>However, the Australian Bureau of Statistics, from which you sourced a minute ago, has a qualification on the 2020-21 data which reads: 'The National Health Survey 2020-21 was collected online during the COVID-19 pandemic'—their word, not mine—'and is a break in time series. Data can't be compared to previous years.' I'm concerned that this bill uses invalid data to justify an expansion of measures introduced by Labor in 2012. The messaging around this bill has a misinformation feel to it. Minister, is the actual rate of smoking in Australia 11 per cent or 12.8 per cent?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said in my summing-up speech today, when the Hon. Nicola Roxon introduced plain packaging, around 16 per cent of Australians smoked, and today that rate is down to just under 11 per cent.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, my data is contained in a paper that was last updated in June 2023 by the Cancer Council of Victoria and is their dataset titled, 'Tobacco in Australia: facts and issues'. The dataset is funded by the Australian government Department of Health and Aged Care; this is your data. I'll keep talking about your data out of this data source, and hopefully someone over there has it to hand. One would have thought it useful in the committee stage of a bill about tobacco in Australia.</para>
<para>Moving on to graph 1.3.1, this graph shows a perfect exponential decay in the rate of smoking every day, suggesting that the quit rate is slowing. What this data calls for is new ideas, not more of the same ideas that are currently not the reason for the reduction in smoking. Minister, what else have you got? What other ideas does your department have to reduce smoking rates? And why are they not in this opus of a bill? Clearly scary photos are not working. The quit rate is decelerating, decreasing.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe I've answered the questions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, can I now refer you to graph 1.3.7, which shows the prevalence of current smoking in Australia, the United States, England, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada. This graph shows that a steady—not accelerating—reduction in smoking rates has occurred not only in Australia but in other Commonwealth countries and at about the same rate. Minister, is this more proof that scary pictures are a stunt, and something else is behind the reduction in smoking?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer to my previous response.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let's change topic, then. In review, the government has no idea what works and what doesn't and has no new ideas—just more of the same, which, of course, keeps public servants and non-government organisations in taxpayer-funded jobs for another year. Minister, you have no new ideas. It's more of the same failed policy approaches. How much does this cost taxpayers? How much is spent on the antismoking industry in Australia every year?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I totally reject the senator's accusations that we have no new ideas, when we are trying to improve the lives of Australians in this country, especially youth—children. We see this in our schools, Senator. So please do not come in here and say we have no new ideas. We know from the cancer rate in this country that smoking is the leading cause of disease. We know that lung cancer is the lead cancer for that. These laws, let me remind the Senate, are about plain packaging. They're about ensuring the safety of our young children—our young Australians—so that they do not get caught up in a world of smoking tobacco, which is quite easy to get caught up in. We have to be sure through this legislation that plain packaging makes a very real difference to the lives of our fellow Australians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. I happen to like you and respect you, but your use of emotion and young children does not cut it. This is my point. The government has committed $511 million over the forward estimates and $101 million ongoing towards a range of measures calculated to help reduce smoking and vaping. These consist of $264 million over four years and up to $101 million per year, ongoing, to establish and maintain a national lung cancer screening program, through which at-risk Australians will be able to get a lung scan every two years. There will be $141 million over four years to expand the Tackling Indigenous Smoking program to include tackling vaping. There will be $63 million over four years for national public health campaigns to discourage people from smoking and vaping, including additional funding provisioned in the contingency reserve for a targeted youth campaign. There will be $30 million over four years to increase and enhance smoking and vaping cessation support. And there will be $13 million over four years for legislative and regulatory reform, as well as testing tobacco products for prohibited ingredients and increasing inspections of manufacturers, importers, wholesalers and retailers of tobacco and vaping products.</para>
<para>Wow! That's an industry—$500 million over the forward estimates, or half a billion dollars. It's an industry, and it's being protected by worthless measures like the ones this bill is proposing. Thousands of bureaucrats, non-government organisations, not-for-profits and miscellaneous opportunists are kept in a job by the size of government's spending. This will do nothing to reduce smoking. We've already seen the data from your own department, which says it's just decelerating at a steady rate. It's not accelerating. It's just decreasing at a steady rate—the same as in countries overseas. Will this bill guarantee all these other measures? Will it be funded for another four years, despite doing nothing to reduce smoking? Was this bill designed in the knowledge that it would keep the antismoking industry in work for another four years?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I totally reject, from the outset, your accusation that this will not do anything to assist our fellow Australians. The fact that we are putting $253.8 million into a new national lung cancer screening program should say something in this debate, shouldn't it, Senator? And the fact that we're putting $238.5 million into supporting the Aboriginal and community controlled health sector is not, I would say, a worthless approach and initiative in trying to decrease the rates of cancer and smoking among First Nations people in this country. I totally reject your allegation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>An emotional argument does not take the place of data. I have never had a cigarette in my lips—never. My children have never had cigarettes either. Let's move to what really drives decreases. The excise on tobacco products has been steadily increasing every year, coinciding with the reduction in smoking rates. Senator Canavan talked about it. Turkiye, which I mentioned before, has the highest smoking rate in the developed world. A pack of Marlboro cigarettes costs US$1.62. That's for a whole pack of 20, not for a cigarette. In Australia the same pack is $25.88 on a best-price comparison basis. The next dearest country for smoking is the United Kingdom, where that same pack costs $15.83. We are more than 50 per cent dearer for cigarettes than any other developed country, and the price has been going up steadily in proportion to the reduction in smoking rates.</para>
<para>Minister, isn't it true that the real reason smoking rates are falling is that they get dearer every year, and the real reason that the number of people giving smoking away is decreasing slowly is that those smokers who are left can afford it more?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd just remind the Senate and the senator that this is a public health policy and we are talking about plain packaging.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm talking about the industry that the bill will feed and continue to feed. Minister, I note that the explanatory memorandum and the second reading speech both try to make the point that Australia is falling behind other nations. Actually, amongst developed nations Turkiye has the highest smoking rate: 41 per cent amongst males. Australia, with 12 per cent, is 29th. Only eight nations have a lower smoking rate than we do. Only two—Iceland, at eight per cent; and Norway, at six per cent—are significantly better. Clearly, the contention that Australia is falling behind the world is outright misinformation. We are close to leading the world.</para>
<para>For clarity, we are close to leading the world because we have priced cigarettes into the stratosphere, not because of scary pictures on boxes or the other Roxon measures. Minister, is this legislation just more of the same to keep the Labor aligned antismoking industry going while at the same time allowing your government to go to the electors and pretend to have done something about smoking? Is this why you exempted yourselves from your own misinformation bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In 2011, under Nicola Roxon, we did lead the world with the reforms that went through both his house and the other house. For the past nine years we've needed more work done, and that's why we're bringing in this next critical step in the fight against tobacco and nicotine addiction. I urge the senator and the Senate to remember that this is why we're here. This legislation is about plain packaging, so that we can once again be world leaders in the way that we conduct ourselves in terms of this public health policy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move my amendment on sheet 2217:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Page 130 (after line 9), after Chapter 3, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chapter 3A — Vaping regulation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3A.1 — Introduction</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124A Simplified outline of this Chapter</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Chapter regulates e-cigarette products that contain nicotine to reduce the health risk to consumers by prescribing the amount of nicotine that can be used in e-cigarette products and prohibiting the use of harmful chemicals in e-cigarette products. Plain packaging and health warnings will also be required on all e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Chapter also makes it an offence to sell e-cigarette products to minors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3A.2 — E-cigarette product regulation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124B E-cigarette product requirements</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">E-cigarette products manufactured, imported, distributed, supplied or sold in Australian must comply with the requirements in this Chapter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124C Nicotine</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Nicotine for use in e-cigarette products is removed from and cannot be included in the Poisons Standard made under <inline font-style="italic">Therapeutic Goods Act 1989</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Subsection (1) has effect notwithstanding anything in the <inline font-style="italic">Therapeutic Goods Act 1989</inline> or the Poisons Standard made under the <inline font-style="italic">Therapeutic Goods Act 1989</inline> at the date this section takes effect.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The regulations may prescribe the nicotine concentration that must not be exceeded in e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) In this section:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Poisons Standard</inline> means the current Poisons Standard as defined in the <inline font-style="italic">Therapeutic Goods Act 1989</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124D Harmful chemicals</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The regulations may prescribe chemicals or ingredients that are harmful to health (other than nicotine) that must not be included in e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124E Appearance and physical features of e-cigarette products</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The appearance and physical features of the retail packaging of e-cigarette products must comply with the requirements (if any) prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of this subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Without limiting subsection (1), the regulations may prescribe requirements in relation to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the colour and finish of retail packaging;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) mandatory health warnings;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) prohibited terms and other marks;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) prohibited images;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) restrictions on the use of brand names or variant names; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) flavourings and the use of flavour descriptors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3A.3 — General offences and civil penalty provisions for non-compliant e-cigarette products</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124F Selling or supplying e-cigarette products to minors</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person contravenes this section if the person sells, offers to sell or supplies an e-cigarette product to a person under the age of 18.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Fault-based offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person commits an offence if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Strict liability offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A person commits an offence of strict liability if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—60 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—600 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Civil penalty provision</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) A person is liable to a civil penalty if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124G Retail of e-cigarettes products in non-compliant packaging</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person contravenes this section if the person manufactures, packages for retail sale, sells, offers to sell, supplies or offers to supply an e-cigarette product that does not comply with subsection 124E(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Fault-based offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person commits an offence if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Strict liability offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A person commits an offence of strict liability if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—60 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—600 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Civil penalty provision</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) A person is liable to a civil penalty if the person contravenes subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chapter 3B — E-cigarette product take back scheme</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3B.1 — Introduction</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124H Simplified outline of this Chapter</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Chapter requires e-cigarette product manufacturers, importers, distributors and retailers (relevant suppliers) to establish collection points for the collection of used e-cigarette products. Relevant suppliers are required to maintain an electronic register of collection points that is accessible by the public. Relevant suppliers are responsible for the collection of e-cigarette products from collection points.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">E-cigarette products must contain a deposit marking which states that the product must be returned to a collection point.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A relevant supplier who disposes of an e-cigarette product at a landfill site, or in any other prohibited manner, commits an offence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3B.2 — Definitions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124J Definitions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In this Part:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">automated collection point</inline> means a collection point that consists of a machine or other device that involves inserting used e-cigarette products into the device, whether or not some other action is required to activate the device.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">collection point arrangement</inline> means an arrangement between a relevant supplier of e-cigarette products and a retailer under which the relevant supplier collects used e-cigarette products from the retailer.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">collection point</inline> means a designated place where a consumer may deposit the relevant supplier's used e-cigarettes product and includes an automated collection point.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">relevant supplier</inline> in relation to an e-cigarette product means a manufacturer, importer or distributer of e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">used e-cigarette product</inline> means an e-cigarette product ordered, purchased or used by a consumer, and includes an e-cigarette product that remains in its original packaging.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3B.3 — E-cigarette take back scheme</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124K Relevant supplier must establish collection points and collect e-cigarette products</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A relevant supplier of e-cigarette products must establish collection points in accordance with the requirements (if any) prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of this subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Without limiting subsection (1), a relevant supplier of e-cigarette products may establish a collection point under subsection (1) by entering into a collection point arrangement with a retailer.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A relevant supplier of e-cigarette products must collect the relevant supplier's used e-cigarette products collected at collection points that the relevant supplier has established under subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Offences</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) A person commits an offence if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is a relevant supplier of e-cigarette products; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person has not established collection points in accordance with subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) A person commits an offence if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is a relevant supplier of e-cigarette products; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person refuses or fails to collect the person's used e-cigarette products from a collection point in accordance with subsection (3).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124L Requirements for collection point arrangements</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A collection point arrangement must meet the requirements (if any) prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124M Relevant supplier of e-cigarette products to maintain a register of collection points</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A relevant supplier of e-cigarette products must maintain a register of collection points that the relevant supplier has established under section 124K.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The register must be:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) kept in an electronic form on the relevant supplier's website; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) accessible by the public; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) searchable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The register must include the following in relation to each collection point:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the location;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the hours the collection point is accessible to the public;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) any other information prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of this paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124N Requirements for collection point arrangements</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">None of the following communications, of themselves, constitute an e-cigarette advertisement:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notification to consumers that an e-cigarette product may be returned to a collection point;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) notification to consumers of incentives to return e-cigarette products to a collection point.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124P E-cigarette product must bear collection point return markings</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) An e-cigarette product must contain, on its external packaging, a written statement that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) states that the e-cigarette product must be returned to a collection point; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) includes a hyperlink to the website with the relevant supplier's list of collection points established under section 124K; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) any other information or graphics prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of this paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Chapter 3A sets out additional packaging requirements for e-cigarette products.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A relevant supplier must not sell an e-cigarette product to another person to use or consume, or to sell for use, consumption or further sale unless the container displays the markings required by subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Offence</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A person commits an offence if the person contravenes subsection (2).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3B.4 — Disposal of e-cigarette products</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124Q Offence to dispose of an e-cigarette product</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person commits an offence if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is a relevant supplier of e-cigarette products; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person disposes of the person's used e-cigarette product:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at a landfill site; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) in any other manner prohibited by regulations made for the purposes of this subparagraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person commits an offence if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is a retailer; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person disposes of an e-cigarette product:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at a landfill site; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) in any other manner prohibited by regulations made for the purposes of this subparagraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in the case of a natural person—2,000 penalty units; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in the case of a body corporate—20,000 penalty units.</para></quote>
<para>In doing so, I will briefly outline what it pertains too. I went through this in brief during my second reading contribution as well. The amendment does three simple things. Firstly, it removes liquid nicotine from schedule 4 of the Poisons Standard. I note that, at the moment, schedule 4 means that to obtain liquid nicotine you need to do so with a prescription in this country.</para>
<para>So it's listed with lots of other drugs that are prescription-only medicines. That approach is clearly not working, because a lot of pharmacists are simply not stocking liquid nicotine. When I asked a question earlier, the minister could not even say what percentage of pharmacies stock liquid nicotine or vaping products. Clearly, a lot of pharmacists don't want to be in the business of supplying liquid nicotine. That's their right; we can understand that. They're in the business of health products. Liquid nicotine is a drug. There's no doubt about that. It's a drug that I don't think should be encouraged. But as it has been clearly proven over the last few years as this regime has been in place—it's been added to schedule 4—it's not been working.</para>
<para>Of course, I should add that tobacco, which is a much more harmful drug than liquid nicotine, is not in schedule 4 of the Poisons Standard. It's therefore much more freely available to any adult over the age of 18 at service stations and supermarkets. Pretty much wherever you like to go in Australia, if you're over 18, you can get tobacco, but liquid nicotine is on the Poisons Standard. That seems out of whack to me, so my amendment would move that. I recognise if we were to remove it from the Poisons Standard it shouldn't be a free-for-all. We shouldn't allow liquid nicotine to be sold everywhere just like any other product. We have a very good regime in this country—a ready-made regime—to regulate the sale of liquid nicotine and e-cigarettes. We just have to do what we do with smoking. It works. It's a good system, where we require cigarettes to be behind locked cabinets and not on display. We don't have any flash packaging. It's all plain packaging. I think the one difference in the case of e-cigarettes is that there would be a need to regulate the flavourings and descriptions of those, although we do have similar regulations with smoking with regard to the content of nicotine and the various flavours allowed as well. So we can do all of those things.</para>
<para>The second part of my amendments gives the minister power to regulate all of those aspects of the vaping market and to do so in a way similar to how smoking is regulated in this country. We absolutely should crack down on any sale of vaping products that are clearly marketed to children—these fairy floss, candy-type flavours that are infesting the black market, as we currently see. Let's focus our efforts on getting rid of those and keeping them away from our kids and from being attractive to our children rather than trying to regulate the choices of all adult Australians. I should add that I've missed part of that second part. Of course, my amendments would make it a crime to sell e-cigarettes to minors, and penalties associated with anyone who does so would be equivalent to those that are there for smoking.</para>
<para>Finally, the third part of my amendments would establish an industry fund. Those who are selling e-cigarettes would have to fund a disposable vapes collection scheme. There is a problem emerging from the amount of waste being generated by disposable vapes. Most of that waste currently comes from a black market, and therefore the disposal of those vapes is completely unregulated. It's going into general waste and causing a lot of issues there. This would set up an industry funded scheme, which would require collection points to be established where vapes are sold, where people could drop off their disposable vapes and make sure they are disposed of in an environmentally safe way. I recognise and thank Senator Steele-John for indicating earlier that the Greens are somewhat attracted to looking at that type of scheme.</para>
<para>I'm trying to move the debate forward here. Obviously, I'm going to go down in a ball of flames—like I'm used to doing in this place—but I'm just trying to move the Overton window on this a little bit, because there's a lot of rhetoric and a lot of slogans right now about wanting to prohibit vapes and get rid of them. I think it's just completely unrealistic. We are not going to move to a world where people do not vape. We have too many people doing it now. The genie is out of the bottle. It is about making sure that we regulate it and do our best to keep it out of schools or marketed towards children. That's what our focus should be on.</para>
<para>We can see that all around the world. Anyone who travels now would see that everywhere else in the world—every other developed country in the world—has a growing and thriving vaping market. I don't think all of those countries are doing a good thing. I've been in Europe recently where vaping products are on supermarket shelves and at the checkout. I don't want to see that. We should get this right. As I said, we've got a very good model in this country to do that, to replicate our smoking regulations—our strict regulations—on this market. We should not try to double guess the choices of adult Australians but focus our enforcement on protecting our children.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to speak briefly to the amendments that have been put forward by Senator Canavan. Absolutely nobody in Australia wants to see Australian children getting access to vaping products and becoming addicted to vaping. That has to be the absolute focus of any action in relation to vaping. But the reality is that we know that the current prescription system is not being enforced, which is why we're seeing so many young Australians getting access to flavoured vapes in coloured packaging down at the corner store.</para>
<para>It's important to acknowledge that there are significant difficulties in measuring the extent of the issue before us. It would be extremely difficult to measure the effect of any further regulations aimed at tackling vaping because of the black market. So, like with the tobacco discussion we were having this morning, until we can actually get a handle on the black market and on enforcement of the black market—which is why the amendment that we moved earlier that was successful in this place sought to address illicit e-cigarettes and illicit tobacco—these are substitute products and enforcement needs to be equally strong on both of them. We know that that's not the case at the moment.</para>
<para>I absolutely acknowledge the intent behind Senator Canavan's amendments in terms of his pragmatic approach to, firstly, dealing with the challenges of access to nicotine based products that are illegal in Australia as we sit here today, unless they are sourced through a prescription and a pharmacist. We've heard contributions to say that that's absolutely limited the ability to access through that means. We understand that the regulations that are being brought in by Minister Butler will prohibit being able to import your own vapes if you have a prescription from a doctor. So we know that that's not working.</para>
<para>This bill, I acknowledge, is predominantly about tobacco and this about the framework that sits around tobacco control and not vape control, but we absolutely agree with Senator Canavan that more needs to be done on the issue than the shallow headline announcements that we've seen so far from the government on this particular issue. I also acknowledge the deposit scheme that Senator Canavan has put forward. I would absolutely say to the government that, in legislation that you intend to bring to this place, it would seem to me like an entirely sensible thing for you to include this really sensible amendment that Senator Canavan has put forward.</para>
<para>As I said, this is about the issue of tobacco and tobacco control. For that reason, we will not be supporting Senator Canavan's amendments. But I would certainly suggest to the government that it has a look at what they're doing going forward with vaping to make sure that the actions they put in place really do address the most significant issue about vaping that's before us at the moment, and that is children getting access to bubble gum flavoured vapes at their corner store. Until you can come in here and prove to us that your measures really will deal with children getting access to nicotine based vaping products, I would suggest that you are missing the role that we were put here to do.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition has tabled an amendment to tighten up the policing of cigarettes, unsafe vapes and vaping products. One Nation is in support of tightening up the policing of vapes and cigarettes. In reading this bill, it seems that this Labor government was happy to profiteer off the tobacco excise and ban vaping to protect the tobacco excise, both of which make life harder for everyday Australians. The absence, though, of tangible provisions in the bill to fight imported tobacco says to me that this government does not want to upset your ethnic branches who import cigarettes from their homeland and don't pay excise on them. Minister, how many prosecutions were made in the last 12 months over the importation of illegal tobacco and which countries did that tobacco originate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that on notice.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let's understand better the role of vaping. I'm sure we have all known someone who's smoked all their life and died old and happy. How is that possible? I'm curious about that myself. It turns out we know why. In 2015 British scientists, funded by their Medical Research Council, discovered that some people—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Roberts.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Chair, can I just check something. I had thought Senator Canavan had put his question and that Senator Ruston had responded to it—so we hadn't completed that before going to Senator Roberts.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will just come back tomorrow.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>118</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tobacco Products</title>
          <page.no>118</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise this evening to discuss the work the Albanese Labor government is doing to tackle the scourge of tobacco products. Today we've been debating a groundbreaking piece of legislation that will usher in a new era of tobacco control and legislation against emerging threats posed by vaping and e-cigarette products. I know I can't speak any further on that particular piece of legislation, but I want to touch on the fact in my home state of Tasmania we suffer from poorer health outcomes when compared to the rest of the country. In fact, we have much higher than average rates of tobacco use. With already high rates of cardiovascular disease and severe cancers in Tasmania, the added impact of tobacco addiction has entailed widespread misery for Tasmanian smokers and their loved ones—and let's not even talk about the cost to the health system in Tasmania.</para>
<para>Across Australia more broadly, the flow-on effects of tobacco use on individuals are costing Australians more than $100 million per year. I want to assure people in this place and people listening elsewhere that people can always depend on Labor to put health first as a priority—reducing deaths and remaining unafraid to stand up against special interests. After all, it was a Labor government, with former minister Nicola Roxon, who changed the face of tobacco advertising in this country, which has gone a long way to reduce—and it has been somewhat successful, I might say—the number of people using tobacco products. You can always rely on Labor to put health and public interests before its own. It was over a decade ago that we started using the issue around tobacco to raise awareness of the health implications on Australians, and we will continue to do that. Tonight I acknowledge the Hon. Mark Butler, the Minister for Health and Aged Care, and what he's been doing since coming back into government in this portfolio.</para>
<para>There are far-reaching issues even beyond health when you look at illegal tobacco this country. Some of the contributions tonight by those opposite talking about the actual piece of legislation have bewildered me. It bewilders me, quite frankly, that anyone would want to surrender to vaping in this country—to surrender the ground of knowing that this is another attack by the tobacco industry to get young people addicted to vaping. There is no way we will evade our responsibility to make sure we do everything we can to stop the scourge of not only tobacco but vaping in this country. It is addictive. We don't even know the full implications of the chemicals being used and the way they protract to promote to young people the flavours and the fun-loving colourful vaping that is used to get people, particularly young people, addicted.</para>
<para>Vaping and e-cigarettes were always about trying to get people off tobacco and to stop cigarette smoking. I think it's extraordinary, frankly, that when you talk about alcohol in this country you have to be licensed to sell that product.</para>
<para>We know that there are health implications of overindulging in alcohol. We all know that. You have to be licensed to sell it. I believe that we should be licensing tobacco outlets to be able to sell cigarettes and that you should only be able to use vapes and e-cigarettes under prescription. That's what we should do.</para>
<para>Just because it's difficult to control and stop the illegal importing of these products doesn't mean that we should surrender the ground. We can't afford to do that. We know the damage that tobacco has done to Australians throughout this country. I know that in Tasmania we have so many health issues. We should be doing everything we can to stop young people from starting smoking cigarettes or using vapes. There's never enough money in the health system to be able to cope with the demands of the implications of tobacco and cancer in this country. I urge people to consider this legislation.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Middle East</title>
          <page.no>119</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise once again to stress my support for the innocent Israelis illegally being held hostage by Hamas, my sympathy for those who have been brutally killed and my solidarity for the families and friends who remain. Grieving and uncertain they find themselves in an unimaginable nightmare of a situation, and it is very far from over. Nearly two months after 7 October, and with a truce between Hamas and Israel having begun and ended, there remains more than 100 hostages. Some are elderly, some are highly vulnerable and all are entirely innocent.</para>
<para>The coalition continues to call for the immediate and safe release of all hostages. Last week we were reminded on a very personal level exactly why this must be our position. At a meeting of the Parliamentary Friends of Israel, mothers, uncles and friends who had made the long journey from their homes in Israel to share their stories told us about their loved ones. Some are confirmed dead. Some remain unaccounted for. Many were or are young, with what should be promising futures ahead. Our Israeli guests held nothing back, right down to sharing their harrowing text message conversations as the conflict and hostage taking began. Their own bravery was matched by that of their loved ones.</para>
<para>Later I joined them and a large crowd, including the Israeli ambassador and my colleague the shadow foreign affairs minister, Simon Birmingham, on the lawn in front of Parliament House for a Bring Them Home rally. Behind them the cardboard silhouettes of men, women and children of all ages formed a striking, very sobering background. These are the people their families, friends and communities desperately want home. They have a right to be, without delay.</para>
<para>It was one of a number of Bring Them Home rallies I've attended in support of this critical cause, including in Perth in my home state of Western Australia. There I stood alongside and addressed members of our very valued Jewish community, which has always made and continues to make a remarkable contribution to the life of the city and the state. They do so in an environment of total respect and safety. This cannot be stressed enough.</para>
<para>The impact of this conflict reaches far beyond Gaza, Israel and the Middle East. It is taking a horrific toll on many in the suburbs of Perth in my home state and in the Jewish communities across our country. We've seen appalling scenes in Sydney, Melbourne and elsewhere. Not only are they concerned for the wellbeing of family and friends in Israel but they are being subject to a growing tide of antisemitism. It is frightening, unacceptable and un-Australian. Jewish communities are not feeling safe in our cities, and we must take immediate action to ensure that they do.</para>
<para>I'd like to share some frank concerns shared with me by my friend Mr Steve Lieblich, who is also Vice President of the Jewish Community Council of Western Australia. Referring to the reports of anti-Israel agitators storming the Melbourne hotel of a group of Israeli delegates whose families and friends were killed or taken hostage, resulting in them being forced to hide, he said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Our community is alarmed and frightened. We're living in a nightmare … can't believe that this can happen in Australia.</para></quote>
<para>And he pleads that the Australian government 'will urgently and without delay act to make sure that such hateful, invasive intimidation is unequivocally banned and that Jews can feel safe in Australia'.</para>
<para>I join colleagues in this place and the thousands, even millions, of Australians who are condemning the antisemitism that has forced leaders to send desperate messages like this one to their parliamentary representatives. I will continue to do everything I can to support them at this most difficult of times. Of course, I will continue to pray for the immediate safe release of the hostages and those who wait for them, all of whom have done nothing to deserve the situation in which they now find themselves.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee</title>
          <page.no>120</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Australia is a country that prides itself on being a land of opportunity, fairness and equality. We like to tell the world that everyone here gets a fair go. Yet, right now, over 3.3 million Australians are living in poverty. How does one of the world's richest countries end up with millions of people struggling every day to put food on the table and to secure safe and affordable housing and having to make impossible decisions between medical expenses and paying their electricity bill? It's the result of decades of Liberal and Labor governments refusing to listen to people in poverty and dismissing their wellbeing as being not important.</para>
<para>The Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee Bill 2023 is no different. The Greens are excited to see the bill for the establishment of the permanent Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee being introduced into parliament. We see the enormous potential of the committee and believe that it represents a real opportunity to eradicate poverty in Australia. This committee could mark the beginning of a government that actually works collaboratively with people living in poverty on issues that affect them. It could oversee the development of poverty measures and investigate special issues that intersect and contribute to disadvantage, issues such as the lack of affordable housing and discrimination.</para>
<para>Labor's bill falls utterly short. It is a slap in the face to unemployment advocates, social service organisations and every Australian living below the poverty line. Again and again, Labor has refused to listen and engage with people living in poverty on policies that impact them, and this bill is no different. Nowhere in Labor's bill is there a mention of poverty, and there is no requirement for people with experience of poverty to be on the committee. If Labor really cared about economic inclusion and tackling disadvantage this bill would include a requirement for someone with direct experience of poverty to be a member of their so-called economic inclusion committee. They would have listened to the long list of academics, social service organisations and unemployment advocates calling for the development of national poverty measures. Government after government have used the lack of a nationally accepted measure of poverty to dodge responsibility for the inadequacy of income support payments. The permanent Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee could and should play an integral role in developing a national definition of poverty, one that governments can be held accountable to. However, Labor's bill fails to include any requirement for the committee to develop or use such a measure. This bill also fails to uphold the committee's independence and transparency. It fails to require the government to respond to any report made by the committee. All of these concerns were raised by academics, advocates, organisations and members of its own interim committee during the inquiry by the Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee into the bill, yet all were ignored as the Labor government chose to pass this bill through the House unamended.</para>
<para>I thank Senator David Pocock for his work in establishing the interim committee and for his advocacy on this bill. The Greens welcome the interim committee and establishment of the permanent committee. The idea of an independent body to provide clear advice to parliament on the issue of poverty is something that we Greens have long advocated for, but we know this bill is not up to scratch. That is why we intend to amend it. During the Committee of the Whole, we will be moving amendments to ensure that at least one member of the committee has direct and contemporary experience of low income and economic exclusion and that this person be remunerated for their time and expertise. The amendments will require that there be at least one member with a disability. Membership appointments would go through a transparent process and be referred to a Senate committee for consideration.</para>
<para>We would remove the provision allowing the government to direct the committee to look only at certain issues; include the eradication of poverty as a focus of the committee's work; require it to develop a national policy measure or measures; and insert a requirement that the interests of committee members are made public. These amendments respond to the work and calls of unemployed advocates, academics and social security organisations about what is needed to meaningfully address poverty in Australia. We know that the Economic Inclusion Advisory Committee presents a real opportunity for change. I urge the Senate not to waste this opportunity and to support our amendments.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Procurement: Submarines</title>
          <page.no>121</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There is no question that we are facing significant shifts in geopolitics, safety and security. It is imperative that we as a nation take proactive measures to safeguard our sovereignty and protect the interests of our citizens. Australian security and prosperity hinges on stable oceans, with 99 per cent of our exports relying on maritime transport. Our exclusive economic zone, the third-largest globally, further underscores the critical importance of maritime stability.</para>
<para>Amidst the evolving global security dynamics, the AUKUS deal represents a generational opportunity, showcasing our dedication to collaborating with our allies to enhance global security. By committing to a collaborative effort in the development of advanced defence technologies, intelligence-sharing and the pursuit of nuclear-powered submarines, the AUKUS deal is a testament to the shared values and strategic interest that bind our three nations. The trilateral agreement with the United Kingdom and the United States reinforces security and stability in the Indo-Pacific region, particularly through the acquisition of nuclear-powered submarines, which is a strategic move that enhances our maritime capabilities. These state-of-the-art submarines will not only ensure the safety of our vast coastlines but also serve as a powerful deterrent, signalling to potential adversaries that Australia is steadfast in its commitment to national security. The technological edge provided by these submarines is a game-changer, enabling us to navigate the complex waters of the 21st-century with confidence.</para>
<para>As a Senator for Western Australia, I'm very proud to say that Western Australia will be at the forefront of the AUKUS deal at Fleet Base West, HMAS <inline font-style="italic">Stirling</inline>, continuing our tradition as the home of the Australian submarine fleet. I'm acutely aware of the strategic significance of my home state attracting, developing and retaining a highly skilled workforce in Western Australia. It is crucial for the timely execution of this historic agreement, focusing on and developing the skills and training sector in Western Australia is paramount to bolstering the success of the AUKUS deal. As the agreement brings advanced naval capabilities, a skilled workforce is essential for the maintenance and operation of nuclear-powered submarines. The advanced technology integral to this alliance requires a highly skilled and specialised workforce, necessitating investments in STEM disciplines. By doing so, we equip Western Australians not only for future jobs but also to contribute meaningfully to the AUKUS deal's research and development initiatives. By developing local expertise, we not only enhance our state's contribution to national security but we will also create more highly skilled jobs, fostering economic growth and strengthening the local economy.</para>
<para>Additionally, critical to delivering on this capability will be insuring that the surrounding infrastructure—such as roads and housing—has the capacity to handle and support a project like AUKUS. This means that Anketell Road and Stock Road will need serious upgrades to accommodate satisfactory connectivity. Similarly, the influx of military and auxiliary staff will need to be housed in the southern suburbs of Perth. The Western Australian government must be ready and begin planning now on how it will deliver the additional road and housing infrastructure on top of the existing commitments that are already in the pipeline.</para>
<para>The AUKUS deal stands as a testament to our commitment to national security and global stability. As a senator for Western Australia, I'm dedicated to ensuring that our state plays a central role in this transformative agreement, emphasising skills development to involve more Western Australians in this historical moment. Strategic focus ensures that Western Australia becomes a vital hub in the AUKUS partnership, leveraging our unique geographic position and existing infrastructure. In turn, this strategy between defence needs and workforce development becomes a catalyst for job creation and economic prosperity in our state. Let us embrace the opportunities that AUKUS presents, fortifying our nation's defences and securing a prosperous future for Western Australians and, indeed, for all Australians.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 20 : 20</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>