﻿
<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2023-11-07</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
      <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:WX="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Tuesday, 7 November 2023</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 12:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Meeting</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (Australia's Engagement in the Pacific) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr requested that I look at a second reading amendment that was moved yesterday evening. Yesterday evening, Senator Scarr raised a point of order in relation to the second reading amendment moved by Senator McKim in relation to the Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (Australia's Engagement in the Pacific) Bill 2023. Acting Deputy President Senator Hughes agreed to refer the matter to me.</para>
<para>In relation to the second reading amendment, <inline font-style="italic">Odgers</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Australian Senate Practice</inline>, at page 312, says that the requirement for relevance is 'interpreted liberally' and any 'amendment is accepted if it relates in any way to the subject matter of the bill'. This gives the Senate:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… maximum freedom to determine its course of action and express its view in relation to a proposed law.</para></quote>
<para>It is quite common for second reading amendments to deal with the context in which a bill is considered rather than directly addressing the text of the bill. In this case, the minister's second reading speech explained that the bill forms part of a broader program to strengthen Australia's ties with Pacific Island nations. It is in order for senators to comment on that aspect of the bill in debate and by way of second reading amendments. Senator McKim's amendment is in order.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment Protection (Sea Dumping) Amendment (Using New Technologies to Fight Climate Change) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7052" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Environment Protection (Sea Dumping) Amendment (Using New Technologies to Fight Climate Change) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion for the second reading of the Environment Protection (Sea Dumping) Amendment (Using New Technologies to Fight Climate Change) Bill 2023 be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:07]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>15</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.<br /></p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>2</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There are a number of amendments before the chamber, which we'll go into in a little bit of detail. But I want to start with some questions in response to an assertion that Senator McAllister made in her second reading contribution yesterday—that this sea dumping bill that we have before us today hasn't been brought forward to help facilitate an individual project. I don't have the exact words from <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>, Senator McAllister, so you'd be welcome to correct anything I said there. But I think you were very clear that any potential projects were a long way away and that this has nothing to do with an individual project. So, I just wanted to start by asking some simple questions around that.</para>
<para>Is the minister aware of any existing oil and gas projects or proposed oil and gas projects in Australian waters that are seeking transboundary waste or CO2 movements into carbon capture and storage? That is, are there any projects in Australia, existing or proposed, that have formally, informally or even publicly raised the prospect of wanting to pump their CO2—their carbon—into reservoirs across our national boundaries into foreign waters?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There are four projects that I'm aware of that are currently exploring the possibilities to import CO2. They include Sea Store 1 in Western Australia, CarbonNet in Victoria, SEA CCS hub in Victoria and the Darwin LNG hub in the Northern Territory. I'm aware also that the Timor-Leste government had indicated their interest in exploring possibilities in their waters. But, as I indicated—or tried to indicate—in my second reading remarks, the nature of the framework that would be legislated if the bill before us passed would require, in accordance with the terms of the London protocol, bilateral agreement to be established between the two nations where a transboundary movement was proposed. It was on that basis that I made I think the self-evident point that that would take some time.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. I noticed in your response there that you didn't mention the proposed Barossa project or, for example, the Sunrise project, which borders Australian territory and East Timorese territory. So, could I ask you to clarify whether it's your understanding that the Barossa project, with its various investors, have raised this transboundary prospect?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In referring to Timor-Leste's interest in establishing arrangements within their own territories, I implicitly sought to refer to Barossa. I apologise if that seemed incomplete to you. As I've indicated, though, the terms of the London protocol would require this bilateral agreement to be established with Timor-Leste, or any other country where a transborder movement was proposed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds to me like you are putting Timor-Leste and their government at the centre of this. So they're the ones proposing to take Barossa's dirty CO2 and Woodside's dirty CO2 from the Sunrise project? Is that correct? Timor-Leste are the ones driving this process of exporting Australian pollution to their boundaries?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am not in a position to provide comment on interactions between proponents and the East Timorese government, but perhaps I can provide you with this information. We're aware of Timor-Leste's interest in converting the depleted Bayu-Undan field to a CCS project. Minister Wong has visited Timor-Leste and indicated that we would support their ambition. We're waiting to confirm their proposed next steps on that project. We would be guided by their priorities. That is of course entirely appropriate. We respect their right to make sovereign decisions about inward investment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Fair enough, but I can't imagine they, for example, requested that the Australian parliament pass this sea-dumping protocol, the London protocol, to help facilitate a project in their national interest. Presumably we're going through this process now so Australian companies, with Australian investments, can import—you mentioned a few examples there—or export our pollution across national boundaries. Is the minister aware that the Japanese investors in the Barossa project have raised this with the Australian government several times? Is that the minister's understanding?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The first half of your contribution went to motivation and why the government might be taking the steps that we're taking in introducing this bill. I will reiterate the proposition that I put in the second reading speeches. This bill seeks to implement amendments that have been made to the London protocol, to which Australia is a signatory. The London Protocol to the Convention on the Prevention of Marine Pollution by Dumping of Wastes and Other Matter was amended in 2009 and then again in 2013, to make provision for transborder movement of carbon dioxide and to create a framework to manage the placement of wastes or other matter for legitimate marine geoengineering scientific research activities. As parties to the protocol, we are seeking to implement the legislative arrangements that would allow us to respond to these amendments that have been made to the protocol. This is a longstanding process. It has been under consideration within the formal processes of the government and the parliament for some time. I understand it was considered by JSCOT in 2020. It is a longstanding piece of work that is consistent with our international contributions to a shared approach to managing marine environments. As I said in my second reading speech, if the bill were not introduced, there would be no regulatory framework to deal with these kinds of issues at all.</para>
<para>The consequence of that is that operators, researchers and proponents could start looking for loopholes and create their own initiatives and their own frameworks without government oversight, and that is the motivation for the government bringing the bill forward.</para>
<para>You asked about representations from the Japanese government—no, my apologies. I apologise, Senator Whish-Wilson; could you repeat the second half of your question?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the minister aware of concerns that have been raised by Japanese investors in the Barossa project? Also, are companies such as INPEX who invest in LNG receiving terminal development in the Northern Territory? While I'm at it, I might add that CEO Meg O'Neill of Woodside has raised over many years the need for carbon capture and storage around the Sunrise project in the Timor Sea. Are you aware of those issues that have been raised by these companies and their investors?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps, Senator Whish-Wilson, I can answer it this way: yes, I am aware of the public discussion that has taken place. I don't have at hand details of every interaction that may have taken place between ministers in this government or previous governments with individual countries. But, yes, as you indicate, there has been public discussion by companies about their interests.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Perhaps I'll step through this with you then, because I think a lot of that information is publicly available and has been reported on by the media. I'll get back to the Sunrise project and Woodside's comments, which have been made over a number of years, because as I'm sure you're aware the Sunrise project is a very complicated one. The energy economics of it aren't that straightforward.</para>
<para>Let's just deal with the Barossa project for a moment. Once the safeguard legislation was passed by this chamber, there was what was described by the media as a 'broadside' by a number of Japanese investors into the changes to the safeguard mechanism and how they might impact investment in their Barossa project. I think they described it in the strongest possible terms as 'a betrayal' of the relationship between Australia and Japan, which obviously put significant pressure on your government, including various ministers. For example, Michael Smith, the North Asia correspondent for the <inline font-style="italic">Fin Review</inline>, wrote that Australia is no longer Japan's most trusted LNG supplier. He quoted Japan's Institute of Energy Economics chief executive as well as comments from various companies. Part of that article was clearly referring to a request to the federal government from Japan—and I presume that's the Japanese government—that the Australian government exempt Santos's $5.8 billion Barossa gas project in the Timor Sea from the safeguard mechanism. He then asked that the Albanese government help Japanese operators pay for carbon credits or develop carbon storage that they would need to meet the new emissions targets. I reiterate that this was on 5 July. In that same article, a spokeswoman for energy and climate change minister Chris responded:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the government was investing in the regulation and administration of carbon capture, utilisation and storage (CCUS), which would help operators earn carbon credits under the safeguard mechanism.</para></quote>
<para>…   …   …</para>
<quote><para class="block">"While the safeguard mechanism provides an incentive for new CCUS projects to meet abatement goals, it also opens the possibility for the earning of Safeguard Mechanism Credits if CCUS projects are successful in lowering emissions below baselines," …</para></quote>
<para>This article also references concerns raised directly with the Albanese government in March—that's three months prior to that—by INPEX Corporation about changes around Australia's energy and carbon policy. So that was on 5 July.</para>
<para>Not long after that, it was reported in a number of news articles that the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Mr Chris Bowen had—following this broadside, this accusation of betrayal by the Australian government—headed to Japan in an attempt to repair bilateral relations after officials in Tokyo voiced concerns around Australia's future as a reliable LNG gas exporter. The article I am referring to here—and I can provide the minister with a copy of it—was by Amanda Battersby out of Singapore. She got a quote from APPEA that said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"Proximity lowers emissions from transportation, while the upcoming large-scale implementation of [carbon capture, utilisation and storage] will lower well-to-ship emissions," …</para></quote>
<para>and they talked up the need for more investment in CCUS.</para>
<para>A day after these articles, on 25 July, Michael Smith, North Asia correspondent, clearly got access to Minister Bowen directly, following his coverage of this broadside by the Japanese government and Japanese investors. This article said Climate Change and Energy Minister Chris Bowen had told Japan and South Korea there would be no exemptions from Labor's emissions policy, and that he doesn't believe it threatens their energy security or trading relationships. But:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Mr Bowen also said Labor supported special legislation that would allow Santos to send carbon dioxide from its $5.8 billion Barossa project across an international border to the Timor Sea. He acknowledged the project, which Japan wants to be exempted from the new rules, was reliant on carbon capture utilisation and storage.</para></quote>
<para>Minister: is this legislation and the timing of this legislation designed to facilitate the Barossa gas project as was stated by Mr Chris Bowen?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've already answered the question by explaining to you that the government's motivation in bringing forward the legislation is to meet our obligations as a party to the London protocol, to participate in global efforts to establish regulatory frameworks that are predictable and certain, and to meet environmental standards that have been agreed with our global partners. I think your question and its very long preamble seek to draw a link between the safeguard mechanism—which imposes stringent obligations on large projects, including gas projects—and carbon capture and storage. In many ways, that's quite straightforward, isn't it? The IEA makes it very clear that CCS will be a part of the broad mix of technologies necessary to make it to net zero. Those broad conclusions are echoed by the IPCC and most other international energy analyses of our potential pathways to net zero, and Australia doesn't dispute this.</para>
<para>I guess the question, which will be a product of the changing role and cost profiles of different technologies, is which of the various technologies available to us will prevail in what the relative weight of different technologies on our path to net zero looks and feels like. We are focused, in our role as government, on making sure that projects that are investable and that are deemed to be commercial by proponents have regulatory certainty now that they face these emissions constraints that you referred to in your preamble. Ratifying the London protocol's amendments is part of our broader approach to CCS and CCUS regulation. It's pragmatic and sensible. We made $12 million available in the last budget to review the environmental management regime for offshore petroleum and greenhouse gas storage activities.</para>
<para>This review seeks to ensure that the regulatory regime for offshore CCS projects appropriately manages risks to the marine environment and to workforce health and safety. The review will identify opportunities to more effectively plan for and regulate the decommissioning of offshore CCS projects. It will look at regulatory requirements relating to long-term liability and monitoring of sequestered carbon dioxide and will examine opportunities to provide greater regulatory and administrative certainty and efficiency for carbon capture and storage projects in Commonwealth waters. So if your question is, 'Does the government consider that CCS may play a role in supporting covered entities to meet their obligations under the safeguard agreement?' the answer is yes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. That was in no way my question, Minister. So I'll ask it to you again very simply. It's not question time, where a preamble can be used as a reason for not answering the question. I was trying to give you the context of my question, respectfully. I'll quote again from the article by Michael Smith, North Asia correspondent, on 26 July. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Mr Bowen also said Labor supported special legislation that would allow Santos to send carbon dioxide from its $5.8 billion Barossa project across an international border to the Timor Sea.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, is this legislation, the sea dumping bill before us, the 'special legislation' that Mr Bowen was referring to in these comments?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have answered now three times, I think, your question about what the government's motivation is for bringing forward this legislation. I don't think I have anything more to add. I'm certainly not in a position to comment on a report in a news article that I haven't got in front of me about something Mr Bowen may or may not have said. I'm not in a position to provide additional information to you about that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Minister. Nice try. It's a pretty simple question. It's obvious to everyone that this is the legislation Mr Bowen was talking about on 26 July. It was obvious to all the groups who made submissions to the Senate inquiry process, including the Australian Marine Conservation Society, the Australian institute, Surfrider Foundation and the Northern Territory Environment Centre. There were a number of people I know you respect and have worked with over many years who clearly have tied this to the Barossa project. I'm disappointed you couldn't answer that simple question. Perhaps your advisers or I could just give you a copy of this article so you can at least look at it.</para>
<para>That isn't where Mr Bowen finished in this article, by the way. On the second page, when dealing with accusations around the Japanese government's concerns, especially in relation to one investor, JERA, the article said of Mr Bowen:</para>
<quote><para class="block">However, he said Labor supported passing special legislation that would allow Santos to send carbon dioxide from Australia to the Bayu-Undan oil and gas field in the Timor Sea.</para></quote>
<para>Mr Bowen is then quoted as saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"We have introduced the legislation to enable that to occur …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We think that is fair. If we are requiring companies to meet ambitious emissions reduction targets, and they have a way to do it, we can help them achieve it. That legislation is making its way through parliament."</para></quote>
<para>I'll ask you again: is that legislation what we're dealing with today, Minister?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For perhaps the fifth time now, I reiterate the motivation for the government in bringing this forward and I reiterate my earlier answer, too, which is that the government does believe that CCS has a role to play in allowing companies to meet the obligations that are placed on them under the safeguard legislation.</para>
<para>This chamber had an extensive debate about imposing obligations on projects that emitted large volumes of emissions. Your party voted for those requirements to be placed on large projects. This government accepts that, in some examples, it may be that a CCS project is the means by which those projects meet their obligations.</para>
<para>If they seek to do so through that technology, if that's cost-effective and commercial and stacks up for them in the context of their project, then, yes, we want it to be properly regulated.</para>
<para>I'll go back to the effect of the legislation before us. It puts in place the framework set out in the London protocol, and that framework requires a number of important environmental protections and other kinds of assessments to take place before any permit may be issued in relation to the transborder movement of carbon dioxide. It also requires an agreement to be put in place between the two countries that would be impacted by any such movement. These are important baseline regulatory arrangements that are necessary to respond to the possibility of projects of this kind. In the absence of these kinds of regulatory arrangements, we have an unregulated space, and I challenge you to explain why that would be a better outcome than having a clear regulatory environment that implements the environmental protections that the countries of the world have agreed to when they signed onto the London protocol.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We'll certainly get to that, Minister. I'll take up that challenge, because my understanding is if we're going to be dumping it in someone else's national territory we have no regulatory oversight over that at all, and I'm very keen to hear how you're going to actually regulate another country's carbon capture and storage project even if Australian pollution is going to it. But we'll get to that in a minute.</para>
<para>I note again, Minister, this the sixth time I've asked you this question that you've refused to answer: is this legislation before us today the special legislation Mr Bowen has alluded to on more than one occasion? This is just one article—I've got others here—where he's made it very clear that the government is going to be passing enabling legislation to facilitate the Barossa Gas Project. Clearly, he said, 'We have introduced the legislation to enable that to occur specifically related to the Barossa project'—the $5.8 billion Barossa project. You've refused to answer that. I don't know why. I think it's pretty obvious: it doesn't look good for your government that you're refusing to answer the most simple question. I think a bit of honesty and transparency goes a long way. It's not a gotcha moment; I think this is pretty black and white.</para>
<para>Let me try a different tack. If you genuinely don't know, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you don't know that this is the legislation Mr Bowen is referring to to facilitate the transport of CO2 across international boundaries into Timor-Leste, into the Bayu-Undan field, a depleted field in the Timor Sea. This was in July, and it's been going through the House and of course it's here now. I can't see any other legislation before us that might be doing that, so an intelligent person would say, 'Yes, this must be it.' Perhaps you could offer what other legislation is the minister referring to there if it's not this?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll provide an answer for the seventh time, Senator Whish-Wilson, which comprehensively answers the question you're putting to me. The motivation for bringing forward the legislation is to implement the London protocol. It's a policy reform that's been going on for some time. Australia supported both of the amendments that I referred to earlier at the time that they were agreed by the London protocol contracting parties back in 2009 and 2013. Then, in 2020, JSCOT recommended that these were minor treaty actions and that binding treaty action may be taken.</para>
<para>I've also made it clear that the government is in the process of improving and strengthening and clarifying the regulatory arrangements that exist for carbon capture and storage and that the legislation before you is part of a broader suite of actions being undertaken by this government to do that.</para>
<para>It's quite clear that the arrangements we are putting in place support projects of the kind that you describe. It is logically true. What I'm not going to do is comment on comments made by other ministers when I am not in a position to know what was in their minds at the time that they made them, but you may proceed on the basis that the motivation for this is to implement our international obligations and to create a predictable, certain and robust regulatory framework for any projects of this kind that are proposed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, do you have one of Mr Bowen's advisers with you today? Could you answer that question, please? Could you get me an answer rather than avoiding it for the seventh time? I am allowed a second question. I'll try a different tact to get an answer to a very simple question, even though I suspect you know the answer. Has the environment minister's office been in discussions with Mr Bowen's office about the timing of this legislation and the drafting of this legislation to facilitate the Barossa gas project—or not even to facilitate the Barossa gas project but just discussions in Mr Bowen's office about this?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Plibersek consults with her colleagues, as does Minister Bowen, on a very regular basis, including through the processes facilitated by cabinet.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, which community organisations has the minister for the environment consulted with about this legislation in the past three months?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't think we have that information at hand, Senator Hanson-Young.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You have advisers sitting there. I suggest that you ask them for the answers because my next set of questions are going to be related to those conversations that the minister or her office has had. I want to know what undertaking the minister's office gave to the environmental organisations and stakeholders that she's met with or that her office has met with in relation to this bill over the last three months?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, I wonder if you could be more specific? I imagine that in any conversation that a minister would have with stakeholders, they may provide a range of information to those stakeholders about the content of the legislation that's proposed. If there was something more specific you were seeking, I may be more successful in providing a response.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was allowing the minister time to get the list of organisations by which the minister and her office has had conversations and consultation with over this bill in the last three months. If you could answer that question, that would be helpful, and then we could go forward.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, the minister meets regulatory with a range of environmental organisations and the minister's office also—it's not practical to summarise the last three months of the minister's work for the Senate committee stage. I wonder if there is something more specific that would help me focus my inquiries?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I appreciate that Senator McAllister is trying to be helpful. In the spirit of all of us helping each other understand what's going on here, I'll ask some further questions. Could the minister inform the Senate as to whether the environment minister's office has been in discussions with stakeholders about amendments needed to this bill.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that the minister's office has had discussions with stakeholders about their views in relation to this bill. I don't have any further detail about particulars, although I am aware, of course, that the matter was considered by a Senate committee and that a range of stakeholders presented their views at that time.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could the minister inform the Senate what consideration the minister's office has given to an amendment that explicitly references the International Maritime Organization's risk assessment and management framework for CO2 sequestration and the specific guidelines for the assessment of carbon disposal?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that the matter you're raising now is also reflected in amendments that you've circulated in the chamber that pursue the same issues. The advice we received from the department is that those amendments are not required, because the effect of those is already reflected in the legislation. I can step through that in a moment. It would require me to find the relevant piece of paper. Essentially, as I understand it, your proposed amendment seeks to replicate matters which are laid out in the protocol itself. The advice from the department is that that is redundant and that repeating it in our legislation risks having our legislation become outdated should the protocol itself be updated. The legislation as proposed before the chamber at the moment references back to the London protocol and the documents that are attached to it, and it's for that reason that we don't consider it is legally required in the legislation we're now considering.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could the minister inform the Senate as to whether the minister had undertaken to have these amendments drafted by her office or the department themselves?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm advised that the answer is no.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's very interesting. I appreciate the honesty. This minister may not be aware that the environment minister's office had given undertakings to third parties that they would. Here we have just one example of how badly this government has managed this piece of legislation; how appallingly the environment minister has treated the environment sector and those concerns about this issue. For months and months the environment minister's office has been telling environmental groups, community interested organisations and stakeholders that she was busy convincing her colleagues that this bill required amendment. How is anyone meant to believe what comes out of that minister's office from here on in?</para>
<para>I've got a raft of other issues which I think it would be helpful to have some clarity on as to whether there was any work done by the minister's office or the department in relation to fixing up and improving this piece of legislation. Could the minister please inform the Senate what, if any, amendments were being considered by the department or the minister's office to deal with the concerns raised by civil society and interested stakeholders?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that the minister's office has—you're right—been engaged with a range of civil society groups and also that those civil society groups engaged with the Senate inquiry, and we're grateful for both of those efforts. We always appreciate hearing from the environment groups. The minister's office did seek advice from the department about many of the amendments that were proposed, either directly or through the Senate inquiry processes, and has come to the conclusion, on a range of matters, including the one that you raised in your earlier question, that amendments to the bill are not required, because the way the bill is drafted references so directly to the London protocol that replicating the features of the London protocol in the legislation itself is not necessary and has no additional benefits but does in fact introduce legal risks.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Could the minister inform the Senate of which minister's office, or minister, requested the drafting of this original bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I indicated earlier, this process has been running for a long time. The amendments were made to the London protocol in 2009 and then 2013. JSCOT considered it in 2020, and the drafting to implement that JSCOT recommendation was initiated under the previous government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Just for clarity's sake: the bill was already drafted before the Albanese government took office?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Drafting had commenced.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Which department—under the previous government, transferred to the new government—was in charge of the drafting of the bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the Senate for patience. We're obviously asking to step back into the work of the previous government, so it requires finding the relevant corporate knowledge. I understand that the bill was commenced in the Department of Water and the Environment and then, with the administrative arrangements that were published after the formation of the new government, transferred across to the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At which stage was the environment minister, Tanya Plibersek, in charge of the bill, or when did she have carriage of the bill? I'd like to know the date that the minister for the environment took passage of the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It was on her appointment as minister.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could the minister inform the Senate whether the Minister for Resources has been consulted in relation to this piece of legislation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Ministers consult their colleagues on a regular basis.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could I ask whether the Minister for Resources was consulted over possible amendments to this bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I indicated to you before, the minister, of course, considered the advice in relation to the bill that was provided through the various committee processes and by stakeholders. She consults regularly with her colleagues. I don't have any further detail I can provide you about any specific or formal consultations on amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's unfortunate—or convenient, depending on your position, I guess. Could I ask if the minister for environment sought advice from her department about certain amendments, as referenced. We've heard just now that a number of amendments were considered, which the department looked at, advised on, went back to the minister with and gave the minister advice about. I want to know whether any other ministers within the Albanese government were also given advice about these possible amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, there are limits to my personal knowledge of all of the conversations that take place between all of the ministers, but of course ministers discuss policy matters that are before them. This is a bill that interacts with other portfolios. I am advised that Minister Plibersek and her staff have engaged with their colleagues, as you would expect, in relation to this bill. But the government doesn't propose to bring forward amendments to this bill. We've contemplated the many options that have been proposed by participants in the public debate around this bill and have concluded that we are satisfied with the bill as it is presented and as it is before you now in the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Did Minister Plibersek or her office request that this bill be dealt with by the Senate as a matter of urgency this month?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Not that I'm aware.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So why are we debating it today? Why is it on the list for this week?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's understood that the government organises the program for the Senate, and this is one of a very large number of things that we seek to advance through the parliament. It is the policy of the government to ratify the amendments that have been made to the Convention on the Prevention of Marine Pollution by Dumping of Wastes and Other Matter. These matters have been on foot since 2009. As I've indicated, they were initiated under the previous government. We are getting on with the ordinary business of government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a follow-up question in relation to Senator Hanson-Young's question. I was wondering if this might have something to do with the timing of this bill, Minister, and I'd like to get your view on this. On 8 October, it was reported that Australia and Japan had met to pledge deeper cooperation on energy security and climate change during high-level government talks, where Labor sought to reassure Tokyo that future LNG supplies will not be threatened by its green energy policies.</para>
<para>That included these talks and Japan's Minister for the Economy, Trade and Industry, who, at the time, talked to the Australian media and stressed the need for Australia to have a stable investment environment. He discussed Labor's emissions reduction rules on future LNG projects, including the safeguard mechanism, and he discussed a number of issues, including CCUS, in talks with our trade minister, Senator Don Farrell, our energy minister, Mr Chris Bowen, and our resources minister, Ms Madeleine King. Interestingly, although he had previously raised concerns, which I mentioned in my earlier questions about Australia's relationship with Japan, these concerns weren't raised again following this meeting. In fact, he made a comment that, following the meeting with Senator Farrell, Mr Bowen and Ms King, he was now confident of a win-win scenario between Japan and Australia in relation to LNG investment.</para>
<para>Minister, I could read you more about these meetings, but, firstly, were you aware of these high-level talks between senior ministers in our government, which I note didn't include the environment minister but did include the resources minister, the trade minister and the climate change minister? Were you aware of those talks, and was the timing of those talks anything to do with the introduction of this bill through the Senate this week?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks very much, Senator Whish-Wilson. Yes, I was aware that an extremely important meeting was taking place between the Japanese minister and three Australian ministers. And that is entirely appropriate; we have a deep and longstanding partnership, as energy exporters to them, with the nation of Japan. It's a really valuable partnership for Australia. Incidentally, it's by that well-practised pathway over many years in that business and diplomatic relationship which, potentially, lays the foundation for some of the emerging industries that may prove very important for Australia and for the globe—particularly in relation to the production of hydrogen and its derivatives. So, yes, of course we pay attention to and invest in the relationship with Japan. I'm not aware of all the details that were discussed in that meeting between those ministers, but I am pleased that the outcome of those discussions was positive. Of course it's an important relationship and of course this government will invest time in it.</para>
<para>You're going back again now for, I think, the eighth—or possibly the ninth—time to the question of motivation for the bill. I have laid it out so very clearly that I'm not sure whether it really assists the Senate for me to go over it again.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the bill proposes to establish a regulatory system enabling carbon dioxide to be pumped into the Australian seabed—a technology known as 'carbon capture and storage'. Would you like to explain that to me—and not only to myself but also to the public?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Hanson. I wonder if it's the idea of a regulatory arrangement that you're seeking an explanation for or the idea of carbon capture and storage?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, the bill proposes to establish a regulatory system, okay? It's about enabling carbon dioxide to be pumped into the Australian seabed, and it's known as carbon capture and storage. A lot of Australians wouldn't even know, and I didn't even know, about that. I would like an explanation of what this bill is actually going to do. How do you pump carbon dioxide into the Australian seabed? What is the regulatory system that enables this? You've got the bill there and you stated that it's a regulatory system—please just explain.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Hanson. To start with the technology: for many years now, for reasons that are actually unrelated to climate action, oil and gas projects have, for various reasons, been operationally required to eject carbon dioxide into geological formations. The advice I have is that the experience through the oil and gas sector is that the placement of carbon dioxide into geological formations is relatively stable. There's been discussion now for some decades about whether a process of this kind could be used to take carbon dioxide that's produced as a by-product of energy generation activities or industrial activities and similarly store it underground so as to prevent it being released into the atmosphere. The reason for doing so would be to minimise the release of carbon dioxide into the atmosphere, and the reason we seek to do that is the relationship between the release of carbon dioxide and other gases into the atmosphere and global warming.</para>
<para>The regulatory environment is important because there are a range of impacts that you might need to consider when you're undertaking projects of that kind. They would be, potentially, impacts on the marine environment, impacts on worker health and safety and other kinds of questions that might be necessary to manage if you were undertaking a project of any kind. It's important to have clear how those issues would be managed for projects of this kind. Australia has its own regulatory arrangements for projects of this kind that are conducted within Australian waters. The bill before us seeks to create a framework to establish the regulatory environment where there is a transboundary movement of carbon dioxide from one territory to another.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, did the government sign an agreement or make an agreement or give an undertaking to any gas companies or intermediaries about this sea dumping legislation in the lead-up to the safeguard mechanism passing?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Pocock. I'm advised: no.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you said this is about environmental purposes. Basically the bill allows the government to create a regulatory system to place waste into the sea for scientific research purposes—for example, research into ocean fertilisation which aims to remove carbon dioxide from the ocean. Of our carbon dioxide, only three per cent is created by humans; 97 per cent of carbon dioxide comes from the oceans, from the soils and from natural resources. I just don't understand why you're going to take carbon dioxide—it's a natural gas which is 0.004 per cent of all the natural gases in the world, and you're actually terrified and taking it out, and you're going to have to pump it into the seabed. I'm sorry, but I don't understand what your regulatory system is here. You're saying that it's going to help our environment. Usually, when the oceans will release carbon dioxide and take it in depends on the heating and cooling of our oceans. So how is this going to actually help?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, I wonder if it would help to explain that the bill seeks to deal with two different distinct activities. One is projects associated with carbon capture and storage in undersea formations. This was the subject of a 2009 amendment to the London protocol, and the legislation seeks to create a regulatory arrangement for that when it requires the transborder movement of carbon dioxide.</para>
<para>The bill also seeks to deal with a different proposition. This was the subject of a 2013 amendment to the London protocol. It relates to marine geoengineering activities. This allows for the placing of waste or other matter for a marine geoengineering activity such as ocean fertilisation, for legitimate scientific research. It's a really important point, because it's for research purposes only. It's not imagined that it would be permitted at anything like commercial scale at this point in time.</para>
<para>One of the technologies that people are interested in investigating is ocean fertilisation. There are good reasons to regulate that, because we're not yet certain what kinds of impacts that ocean fertilisation might have in addition to its climate benefits. We should always be cautious about these technologies. It's at research scale, and the amendment before us seeks to create a regulatory framework to manage research projects of that kind.</para>
<para>I will indicate that the London protocol is also looking at potential other future listings, including microbubbles—injecting tiny bubbles into the ocean surface to increase sunlight reflectivity—and marine cloud brightening, or seeding, which is injecting sea salt into cloud updrafts to reflect sunlight back into space. These are all research propositions. They're not commercial. But it is important that there is a regulatory framework to manage them so that we don't have unintended consequences on ocean environments. Because the ocean is a shared resource, it makes sense that that's done through an international protocol.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You talked about amendments to the protocol in 2009 and 2011. Where has this carbon capture and storage worked anywhere else in the world? Just tell me one example if you can. I'd like more.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I explained in answer to an earlier question, the technology that underlies carbon capture and storage is quite mature. It has been around for 50 years. There hasn't been a particular need to do large-scale carbon capture and storage until recent times, when we have started to think about carbon abatement. Globally, I understand, there are around 35 commercial CCS or CCUS projects, which capture nearly 45 megatonnes of CO2 each year. Since 2022 there has been an increase of 44 per cent in the total capacity of CCS projects in development around the world—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In the oceans? No.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, you know interruptions are disorderly. The minister has the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the point I might make, Senator Hanson, is that the commercial application of this technology is something that will be a matter for proponents. Whether or not businesses choose to develop projects of this kind will be a commercial decision for them.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You say it's regulatory. You're saying that businesses can choose whether they want to use it or not. But, if they don't use it, then there are repercussions to them. Basically you're introducing this if they want to carry on a business here in Australia. Is that the case? Do they have a choice to do carbon capture if they want to do oil or gas in Australia? Do they have to do to this carbon capture, otherwise they won't be given a licence to get oil and gas in Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, your question really goes to another piece of legislation that's not before us at the moment. Some months ago we had a debate in this chamber about the safeguard mechanism. I'm not sure if you were here for that debate. At that time we made arrangements to establish binding emissions constraints on large Australian projects, and those projects are responsible for coming to their own commercial decisions about how best to reduce the emissions from their projects.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's quite extraordinary that—what is it now? November 2023?—we're seeing this from the Labor government. If Australians wonder why we are not seeing climate action, here it is. Here it is for people to look at: state capture by the fossil fuel industry. We have a senator, an assistant minister, who genuinely cares. Senator McAllister has a track record on the climate and the environment, and yet here she's having to push this absolute dud bill for the fossil fuel industry. We can't even be told who the environment minister has consulted with in NGOs, in civil society. The only people who want this bill are the fossil fuel industry, and here we're having it put through.</para>
<para>The coalition and Labor are supposedly here to take climate change seriously. We hear about how the grown-ups are in charge. We hear so much talk about being 'pragmatic and sensible'. The pragmatic thing to do in the face of the climate impacts we're seeing right now around the world is to not facilitate the expansion of the fossil fuel industry.</para>
<para>Labor love to point at crossbenchers, point at the minor parties, point at the Greens and say: 'Well, you're just out of touch. You've got to be a party of government. You've got to be responsible.' Well, don't listen to me. Let's listen to Dr Joelle Gergis, one of Australia's most respected climate scientists, one of the lead authors on the IPCC's <inline font-style="italic">Sixth assessment report</inline>—the last warning before this window that we have to act closes. These are her words:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There are corporate interests that are willing to sacrifice our planetary life-support system to keep the fossil fuel industry alive for as long as humanly possible, using unproven technology. Carbon capture and storage, known as CCS, is based on the idea that you can extract carbon dioxide from the smokestacks of coal plants or steel factories, compress it, transport it and then inject it back underground, where, in theory, it will remain forever. And that's assuming you can find the right geologic conditions that are stable enough over millennia so that carbon doesn't leak out and back into the atmosphere.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The problem is not only that the technology is enormously expensive, but that despite over twenty years of research, it is still unproven to work at the scale required to substantially reduce emissions.</para></quote>
<para>According to the Global Carbon Capture and Storage Institute there are 27 operational CCS facilities globally, predominantly in the United States, jointly able to capture 36.6 million tonnes of carbon dioxide annually. For context, the world emitted 39.4 billion, with a 'b', tonnes of carbon dioxide in 2021. That is roughly 1,000 times greater than what's possible to capture with current CCS technology. Put another way, CCS plants can only offset around 0.1 per cent of global carbon emissions each year.</para>
<para>To reach net zero emissions by 2050, scientists calculate that carbon dioxide needs to climb by approximately 1.4 billion tonnes each year. Industry groups estimate that between 655 billion and 1.28 trillion is required to make this a reality. Aside from the trillion-dollar price tag, it's critical to realise that CCS projects take around 10 years to progress through concept, feasibility, design and construction phases before becoming operational—time that we simply don't have.</para>
<para>Dr Gergis goes on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Relying on technology that is not ready to be deployed on the scale needed to immediately and drastically address the emergency we face is at best reckless, and at worst an intergenerational crime. It also delays facing the reality that we must stop burning fossil fuels—we need to take serious action and not rely on unproven technology to save the day. As people in climate justice circles like to say, "delay is the new denial." We need to turn the tap off new carbon emissions and start mopping up the damage.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, don't take it from me. Is the government, by trying to get this legislation through, being at best reckless and at worst committing an intergenerational crime?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Pocock. I think there is an underlying false choice in the proposition that you have put in your speech. Senator Pocock, since people were being nice about me earlier, I will say also that I recognise that this is an area of sincere interest for you and many other senators in this chamber. It should be, because we are in the critical decade and, if we don't get it right between now and 2030, we'll face some very significant challenges in the decades ahead. It's for that reason that we have come to government with an absolute determination to decarbonise our economy.</para>
<para>The false dichotomy I referred to just now is this one. It is just not right to say that a rapid transition to renewables and the use of CCS are mutually exclusive. I would accept your argument if the policy position of the government was to rely exclusively on CCS, but that's not the policy position of the government. In fact, over the period we have been in office, we have taken a range of steps to reduce our emissions in a range of sectors, using a range of different technologies and tools. It starts with enhancing our near-term ambition and legislating both our 2030 and our 2050 targets. It includes the public investments that we are making in the infrastructure to enable significantly greater renewables in our own electricity system. It includes the steps that we are taking to facilitate electric vehicles and their use in this country and to make Australia an attractive destination for the countries that are producing electric vehicles, including, incidentally, some of the countries with whom we do the greatest trade in energy. It includes the development of a robust framework for the land sector so that the sequestration possibilities that are present in nature based solutions and in biodiversity can be realised.</para>
<para>That is actually not the whole of the government's climate agenda, because it would probably take too long to go through that and it would not really be reasonable to labour the Senate with that. But the point I am making to you is that this is a very challenging period for humanity and it's a challenging period for governments, but we have to tackle it. To do so, we will need every tool at our disposal.</para>
<para>We have placed limits on the largest polluters in our national borders and we have asked them to develop the technological solutions that will help them keep to those limits. It may be that some proponents choose to use CCS as a response to those constraints. If they do so, they should, I think you would agree, do so in a well-regulated environment. That's what this bill seeks to contribute to, along with the other steps that we are taking to strengthen the regulatory arrangements around the CCS projects that may take place in Australian waters. But it has this constraint on it. It needs to stack up commercially for the proponents. They need to make decisions about which technologies are going to work for them as they make their transition towards net zero.</para>
<para>I understand why senators would like to have the widest possible debate about our path to net zero and the widest possible debate about climate change.</para>
<para>But I do draw senators' attention to the actual content of the bill before them. It is a bill that seeks to ratify an international convention that exists to create a standardised approach between countries about how we'll manage a shared ocean resource. As part of that protocol, it seeks to establish the arrangements that will be put in place where there is a transborder movement of carbon dioxide. I personally would prefer the transborder movements of carbon dioxide to be regulated if they are going to occur, and it's on that basis that I do sincerely support the legislation that's before us.</para>
<para>I thank senators for their contributions to date. I don't labour under any delusion that we are about to finish any time soon, but I say this: these things aren't mutually exclusive. Of course we have to pay attention to renewables. Of course we have to work on increasing the uptake and the availability of electric vehicles. Of course we have to work on the land sector. Of course we have to work on the technologies that will support our heaviest industries. While we do it, incidentally, we should pay attention to all of the communities around the country that are absolutely dependent on us getting this transition right so that we can create sustainable, secure jobs that keep people healthy and happy as we head towards 2050. There are heaps of opportunities there, and we're determined to grasp them. The idea that passing this bill will stop any of those other things from happening is simply wrong.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that, Minister. Given your talk about the Albanese government taking climate change seriously and about things that are not mutually exclusive, we know that something that is mutually exclusive is keeping warming below two degrees and expanding the fossil fuel industry. If we're going to listen to the IPCC and the International Energy Agency, those two things cannot both happen. We can expand the fossil fuel industry and we can kiss the Great Barrier Reef—at least 95 per cent of the Great Barrier Reef—goodbye. Faced with those things absolutely being mutually exclusive, I'd also like to say the IPCC says that adaptation beyond two degrees is going to be incredibly difficult, if not bordering on impossible, for many parts of the world. If that is the case, will the government explicitly rule out the use of this sea-dumping legislation being used by new projects to offset their scope 1 and scope 2 emissions and essentially new projects happening under the safeguard mechanism? Will be government rule that out?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, Senator Pocock, we won't. I'm aware that you have an amendment before the chamber that effectively does that, and I can indicate now that, should you move that amendment, the government won't be supporting it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, how can Australians believe that the Albanese government is serious about climate change when you're saying that you won't rule out this legislation facilitating the expansion of the fossil fuel industry when climate scientists are saying that, if we do that, that's 1.5 to two degrees gone, that's the Great Barrier Reef gone? What do you say to them? At least the coalition are more honest about it. We have Labor telling us you're taking it seriously and then putting this sort of junk legislation through the Senate with the support of the coalition. How can we take the Labor government seriously, if you want to spruik what you're doing on the transition, but you won't listen to climate scientists when it comes to the need to not expand the fossil fuel industry?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, we've had this discussion here, and I've had it with other senators in estimates as well.</para>
<para>We've established the safeguard mechanism, which puts in place a cap on the largest of Australia's emitters. That cap sits over the top of a range of the projects that you're concerned about and will require those projects to reduce their emissions over time using—</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>13</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aged Care</title>
          <page.no>13</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor went to the last election promising to put the care back into aged care. Instead, we're seeing the exact opposite, with the government turning a blind eye as providers struggle to keep their doors open under the new stringent regulations brought in by this government. It's devastating to hear that another 16 aged-care homes have closed since June this year, and that's on top of the 23 closures that we saw from September last year. So the residents of 39 aged-care homes in Australia have been pushed out of their homes in 12 months as a result of the policies of the Albanese Labor government. The department has as much as admitted to this, listing financial viability as the reason for these closures. We know that the decision by this government to bring forward the requirement for 24/7 nurses and other expedited staffing requirements is causing real financial strain on the aged-care sector.</para>
<para>For more than 12 months, the coalition and the sector have been warning the government of the consequences of their decisions to force these requirements on the aged-care sector when it is under severe strain from workforce shortages. Let's be clear: in doing what they're doing, Labor has also gone against the recommendations of the royal commission, which recognised that it would take time for these requirements to be put in place. The Minister for Aged Care, Anika Wells, has consistently refused to listen to these concerns, so now we're seeing more and more older Australians forced out of their homes and no action being taken by this government to address this issue.</para>
<para>With these closures, we've also seen 325 fewer beds available for older Australians. This is despite the minister warning 'the Boomers are coming', and yet she's clearly doing nothing about it. So how many more aged-care homes are going to have to shut their doors, because we want aged-care providers to be providing older Australians with care, not worrying about— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education</title>
          <page.no>13</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Over the next two weeks, over 12,000 South Australian students will sit their SACE exams—their final exams after a long career in the school system. I want to acknowledge that this is a really stressful time. Take a breath, remember all the hard work you've put in and just do your best. This is a difficult time, but it is a time when you can look forward to some lengthy downtime once these exams are finished. Good luck to all of you.</para>
<para>In the Labor government, we know that the education you get is really important, and that requires us to make sure that, across the country, we have the best teachers possible to ensure that you get the world-class education you deserve. That's why we've announced that for students who are commencing teaching degrees in 2024 there are now scholarships available for up to $40,000 to encourage more people to become teachers. The scholarships will be available for undergraduate students, and $20,000 will be available for postgraduate students. This scholarship will encourage more teachers to live and work in rural and regional areas. We're hoping to see a lot of people sign up and get on board. Teaching is an excellent profession. The views of the students you teach will stay with you for the rest of your life, and they will remember you and the dedication that you have to their education. So, if you are thinking about a career in education, please sign up for one of the scholarships. And, if you're taking your exams in the next two weeks, the best of best of luck to you.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Violence Against Women</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The murders of five women in just 10 days last month must increase the urgency of governments and communities to tackle men's violence against women and their children. Seven women—Katherine Safranko, Heather Dean, Krystal Marshall, Thi Thuy Huong Nguyen, Lilie James, Analyn 'Logee' Osias and Alice McShera—were murdered in October by men they knew, bringing the total to 43 women in 2023. These records are not kept by government, as they should be, as we do for the road toll, but kept by a volunteer organisation called Counting Dead Women.</para>
<para>Today, journalist and survivor Nina Funnell has written powerfully about the St Andrew's school's response to the murder of Lilie James, the school where previous students and staff were caught upskirting, sexually assaulting and even choking teenage girls. There is a link between elite institutional cultures, male entitlement and violence against women that cannot be ignored. We need to address how power and privilege play into attitudes towards girls and women. We need to stop framing men who kill women as 'good blokes who just snapped'. Men must do far more to stamp out the sexism and misogyny that breeds inequality and violence.</para>
<para>Let's transform harmful social norms with fully-funded expert-led education in schools, sporting clubs, workplaces and all areas of society. And let's fully fund the frontline support services that provide emergency housing, legal advice and counselling, so that everyone who seeks help can get it. Governments at all levels must prioritise this issue with funding and leadership, and everyone must drive the cultural change that we need to end the epidemic of men's violence against women in our communities. Today, I remember the 43 women murdered so far in 2023. This has to stop.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Members of Parliament: Staff</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak about an appalling line of questions that was asked in the Senate Community Affairs Committee earlier today in relation to the former staff of my good friend Senator Reynolds. I'm not going to name the Labor senator who engaged in the questioning because I'm sure, knowing her or him as I do, that they were given the questions to ask, so these comments are addressed to the leadership of the Australian Labor Party. It is inappropriate to ask questions in relation to the former staff of a minister of the nature that was asked today—totally inappropriate. When you ask those sort of questions, which would not be acceptable in any other workplace in this country, you have real-life human consequences on those former staff. It is unacceptable, and it is part of a pattern of behaviour of persecution and harassment of my good friend Senator Reynolds and her former staff from the Labor Party. And the responsibility sits squarely on Prime Minister Albanese, because the senator who asked those questions today would not have been asked to ask those questions unless the Prime Minister knew about it. It is unacceptable. It would not be accepted in any other workplace in this country. It needs to stop.</para>
<para>We should be setting an example for all Australians in how we conduct ourselves, not as to how to navigate the lower depths of a political sewer and treat former staff as collateral damage. It is unacceptable, and I call upon the Labor government leadership to deeply reflect on what occurred this morning. Three times the senior Public Service official said, 'Stop, desist,' but they continued with those inappropriate appalling questions. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Melbourne Cup</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today I want to highlight the immense significance of the 2023 Melbourne Cup carnival, an event that goes far beyond the exhilarating races and extravagant fashion. The race that stops the nation is not just a sporting spectacle; it is a vital engine driving the economy and creating jobs and job opportunities. The Melbourne Cup serves as a powerful magnet to tourists, both domestic and international. Visitors from right around the world are drawn to the Cup and rightly so, filling hotels, restaurants and shops. This surge in tourism not only boosts revenue for local businesses but also provides a substantial injection into the economy. The hospitality sector thrives and small businesses flourish thanks to the influx of visitors seeking an unforgettable experience.</para>
<para>The carnival is also a significant source of employment. Think about the countless individuals working tirelessly behind the scenes, from event organisers and security personnel to catering staff and cleaning crews. The carnival provides income for many people and supports the livelihoods of individuals who rely on these jobs to make ends meet.</para>
<para>The Melbourne Cup is also a testament to Australia's vibrant horseracing industry. The investments made in breeding, training and racing of thoroughbred horses contribute significantly to the agriculture sector and regional communities, fostering economic stability and growth.</para>
<para>The cup also fosters a sense of community pride and engagement. Many local communities come together to celebrate this iconic event, organising festivals, parades and cultural activities. Let us celebrate not just the excitement of the race but also the economic opportunities and jobs it brings to our communities, particularly regional communities.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania: Foreign Investment</title>
          <page.no>15</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister is back from China. Apparently, there were warm handshakes all around, but the PM is saying that the meeting wasn't transactional, which I guess means that we didn't promise anything and nothing was promised—good to know, because, even if the Chinese Communist Party make promises, they can break those promises the very next day. That's how a dictatorship works. This isn't news to Chinese Australians; they know how the Chinese Communist Party works.</para>
<para>What I am worried about is the deals that have already been made in this country. The Chinese already own 7.8 million hectares of Australian farmland, and the Foreign Investment Review Board gave the tick to $700 million of residential real estate proposals just in the first three months of this year. Tasmanians know this story very well—don't you, Tasmanians?—because in 2014 the Liberal Premier, Will Hodgman, showed the Chinese President around Tasmania, and the story goes that the Chinese said they wanted to buy TasPorts. Apparently, the Premier said he 'couldn't quite make that work'. Well, thank God! Instead, he directed the Chinese government reps to a nice bit of crown land on the waterfront in Hobart. Then, in 2015, without any consultation with the community, the Premier put out a press release that this prime land would be gifted to a Chinese company to build a massive hotel and hospitality centre. The local council, headed up by the mayor, who was a card-carrying member of the Liberal Party, waved the deal through. Fast-forward to 2023, and it seems that this deal is dead in the water, thanks mainly to the local community. Thanks to the community down there. Well done, you guys. I am not saying I'm against overseas investment—we need it—but it is Australians who should be first in line when it comes to owning our land and assets, like ports, and we should not be selling anything off to other countries, especially China. They aren't a democracy, and they don't follow a rules based order.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Great Barrier Reef Arena</title>
          <page.no>15</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Recently, I had the privilege to visit the newly upgraded Great Barrier Reef Arena in Mackay with the member for Dawson, Mr Andrew Willcox. The former coalition government invested $10 million to upgrade the Great Barrier Reef Arena in Mackay, and it looks absolutely fantastic, befitting one of the most beautiful parts of our world. The arena has recently hosted two first-class cricket games—both women's and men's. They've been broadcast live, and they had absolutely stellar reports from Cricket Australia. Indeed, Cricket Australia now say that the Great Barrier Reef Arena is the best cricket ground in any regional part of our country or any non-capital city.</para>
<para>I think it can do more. It can do much, much more, because we've got this thing called the Brisbane Olympics coming over the next decade. Of course, befitting its name, most of the money—about $7 billion—is going towards Brisbane. Part of that money will be to upgrade the Gabba cricket stadium, and, because of those upgrades, we will need a new venue for a test cricket match for about four or five seasons over the next decade. There are some saying we should build a whole new stadium in Brisbane to accommodate this other cricket match, which to me seems to be a massive missed opportunity. It would create another white elephant, because what will happen once the Gabba is redeveloped is that those cricket games will just go back to the Gabba, of course. Why not take this opportunity to take test cricket to the regions—to Mackay? What better selling point for our great tourism industry could there be than to have test cricket at the Great Barrier Reef Arena? The Barmy Army can come over, see their team lose and then head out to the Whitsundays afterwards for a wonderful trip to drown their sorrows. It's a great part of our country, it's a great arena, and I thank Adrian Young and his whole team at Harrup Park Country Club for what they've done.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Juvenile Idiopathic Arthritis</title>
          <page.no>15</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>After a child is diagnosed with juvenile idiopathic arthritis, Australian families and these children find themselves in a world of unknowns, unsure about what will happen next or how to best support their child. I'm very pleased to see that Arthritis Australia has been working on resources to put in place a juvenile idiopathic arthritis consumer care guide. As someone who lives with psoriatic arthritis, which is indeed one of the kinds of arthritis included in what children can get, I understand the importance of these kinds of resources, guidance and advice.</para>
<para>The guide was codesigned with parents of juvenile idiopathic arthritis warriors, as we like to call them, and their families. It includes useful information about every stage of the disease, what to expect, tips for every age and extra resources for more information and support because we want to see people with arthritis, especially young people, supported to improve their health and wellbeing, which can, with the right care, resources and medical innovation, see people's outcomes and children's outcomes dramatically improve. The key to this is, of course, making informed decisions throughout your care journey. For some families, the time line of this referral to diagnosis and treatment has been way too long, and so I am really pleased to see the hardworking team at Arthritis Australia work with these families to make great strides in advocating for greater support for these children with this debilitating— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Palestine: Gaza</title>
          <page.no>16</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On 18 October, as the State of Israel was raining bombs down on Gaza, as civilians perished and hospitals lay in ruins, the Labor and Liberal parties passed a motion through this place that said the Senate stands with Israel. The Australian Greens did not support this precisely—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It said a few other things, Nick.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Resume your seat please, Senator McKim. I remind the Senate that people have the expectation they are going to be heard in silence and with respect. We know this is a very sensitive issue, and I remind everyone here that Senator McKim has the call.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On 18 October, as the State of Israel was raining bombs down on Gaza, as civilians perished and hospitals lay in ruins, the Labor and Liberal parties passed a motion through this place that said the Senate stands with Israel. The Australian Greens did not support that motion precisely because those words were included, and now, three weeks later, over 10,000 Palestinian civilians have died in Gaza. Countless more have been injured. Babies and children are dying every day. Fuel and electricity have been cut off. Thirst, starvation and displacement are part of the daily lives of millions of people. Large parts of Gaza have been turned into rubble. It is profoundly distressing, a humanitarian catastrophe of the highest order, so I say to the Labor and Liberal parties: do you still stand with Israel? Because from everything you have done and said and everything you have not done and not said, it appears that you do. I ask you this: how many people need to die while you still stand with Israel? How many babies need to be slaughtered while you still stand with Israel? How many children need to be buried alive while you still stand with Israel? The time for standing with Israel has passed. The time for a ceasefire is now. Stop the slaughter in Gaza—ceasefire now! <inline font-style="italic">(T</inline><inline font-style="italic">ime expired)</inline></para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senators, you are denying other people the opportunity to make a contribution. I remind you that all senators deserve to be heard in silence.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Services</title>
          <page.no>16</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Almost a fortnight ago, I sat down with a roomful of Canberra's heroes—frontline service providers here in the ACT delivering desperately needed services to some of the most vulnerable in our community. For an hour and a half, we heard from more than two dozen people in the room, as everyone took turns reporting back on what they were seeing on the front line. Called 'Who's new on the streets', these bimonthly meetings are an important check-in and a way of coordinating scarce resources to meet growing demand. While everyone brings a unique perspective, some all too common themes emerged.</para>
<para>Every single representative reported an increase in the incidence of family and domestic violence. Every single representative said there was nowhere left to send those fleeing violence and seeking a safe place to stay. Wait times for public housing are around four years, even for those with the most urgent need. Places in transitional housing are full, and funding for crisis accommodation has run out. I heard from staff at the Canberra Hospital that they are seeking to keep women in hospital—to keep women on the ward—longer than medically necessary because they have nowhere safe to discharge them to. Here in one of the most affluent places in the country, we can't afford to put someone up for a night or two in emergency motel accommodation. The best hospital staff can offer women, children and others fleeing family and domestic violence is a couple of nights in the charity volunteer operated sleepbus.</para>
<para>We have to do more, and I'm calling on the government to step in with additional funding for emergency services and accommodation. This is a joint responsibility of state, territory and federal governments, and we have to keep people in our community safe.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Politics</title>
          <page.no>16</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to make a speech on behalf of Sophia Huckel from the Blue Mountains Grammar School. Sophia spent a week during the last sitting period as a work experience student in my office and, due to circumstances beyond my control, I wasn't able to make this speech while she was here. It has been a pleasure to witness a young person with such a passion for politics. I am reading this speech sight unseen. They are her words:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Four lessons politics has taught me about the world.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Firstly, the environment around us is everchanging. Therefore, it is imperative that we are guided by our core values. Our own personal ethical code must underscore every decision we make as individuals. Nowhere is this more apparent than in this senate chamber, where I have observed hours of deliberation over a single word in a proposed bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Secondly, as once encapsulated by Albert Einstein, possessing passionate curiosity is paramount. Curiosity is a stepping stone for all political progress, and without curiosity, it is impossible to learn, collaborate and enact change. My own personal curiosity over the past 4 days has allowed me to expand my understanding of the democratic process.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Thirdly, we must seek and encourage diversity of opinion. As a young person living in 2023, I find it distressing that my identity is often placed on a higher pedestal than my ideas. We must not live in an echo chamber. In order for growth and change, we must surround ourselves with unlike-minded people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, I have learnt that it is extremely difficult to write a 2-minute speech when I have so much more to say.</para></quote>
<para>Thank you, Sophia, for being with us. I am sure you will have much more to say over your life, and I hope one day you are here to deliver your own words.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Scheme</title>
          <page.no>17</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to urge the Albanese Labor government to get a move on with reining in the out-of-control National Disability Insurance Scheme. Since announcing a reboot of the NDIS, this government has done little to nothing to rein in the exploding cost of the scheme.</para>
<para>I support the NDIS in principle. It was sold to me on the basis that parents of disabled Australians would have assurance that their children would be cared for when they could no longer do it themselves. I was never told it would be used to fund kids with ADHD, which, let's face it, is sometimes a convenient diagnosis excusing poor parenting. I was never told it was going to be used to pay sex workers or fund music lessons as part of care plans costing more than $600,000 per year. And what about corporate box football tickets at $42,000 or alcohol and Christmas presents? It's all absolutely disgusting!</para>
<para>The government could start by reining in rates of pay for specialists, which are up to three times those for specialists in other sectors like public health and aged care. These sectors are struggling to retain skilled workers and are struggling with staff shortages, whereas the NDIS snaps workers up at unsustainable rates. Across the forward estimates, the NDIS is anticipated to cost taxpayers more than $56 billion a year. It is not means tested, and that's a big problem that we have.</para>
<para>Instead of putting at risk more than $10 billion of vital infrastructure funding in Queensland, especially urgent safety upgrades to the notorious Bruce Highway, the government needs to prioritise a reboot of the NDIS. Don't cut important infrastructure. Rein in the scams and waste within the NDIS. As I explained, we've even got someone on the scheme on up to $300,000 who is taking cooking lessons. They get a chef to come out and give them cooking lessons. They get holidays away. These are things that the average Australian can't afford, and we're paying for it. It's a scam.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aviation Industry: People with Disability</title>
          <page.no>17</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Broken wheelchairs, the ignoring of instructions and disabled people being bumped off flights—the list of injustices suffered by disabled people at the hands of Australia's airlines goes on and on. Let me share with you a recent incident. A disabled man was tipped out of his wheelchair by Virgin Australia ground crew while attempting to board a flight. He was accompanied by two carers, whose instructions were reportedly ignored by crew members. This experience is not unique. It represents the hard reality for disabled people. In this instance, we saw the incredible harm done to this individual. In another incident, the same thing happened to Dr Dinesh Palipana, a former Queensland Australian of the Year who was flying from Brisbane to Melbourne to give a talk on disability inclusion.</para>
<para>These are not isolated incidents. In my role as a senator, I have had vital pieces of my chair either lost or broken by Australia's airlines on no fewer than three occasions, and I don't mind sharing with the Senate that this has then caused me to fall multiple times in my home and in public. I've also been kicked off flights when airlines have found out that I am a disabled person. This is discrimination, and it happens to disabled people all the time when we fly. I could share with you countless stories. The experiences are not just unacceptable; they are downright infuriating. It is 2023, yet disablism persists. We refuse to accept this as disabled people. There must be change, and the government must lead that change.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>17</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's Melbourne Cup day today, and normally most Australians would be looking forward to three o'clock—having a bit of a punt, a chicken sandwich and a glass of bubbles as they await the race that stops the nation. Instead, more and more Australian families and households are going to be awaiting the announcement of the Reserve Bank. This will determine those families' future in so many instances, because we know that, since we have seen the Albanese government come to power, there has been an explosion of working poor in this country. As food costs, energy costs, transport costs and insurance costs rise, Australian families—many of them with two working parents—for the first time in their lives are having to ask for assistance from food banks to keep food on the table.</para>
<para>This is happening under the watch of those opposite, yet we see absolute ignorance from them when it comes to the economy. They have no concept. In fact, they can barely contain themselves from telling Australians they've never had it so good since the government came in because of everything they're doing. But every decision they make affects more and more working Australians, creating a class of working poor in this country. You should all be ashamed of yourselves. How you could go back to any of the states that you represent and look at those families who'll be making phone calls to their banks come next week to look at interest-only payments, reducing payments and payment schedules! Forget about the ones who've got to the point where they've lost all their savings, there is no buffer anymore and it's a matter of choosing between keeping the house or paying the rent and feeding the children—all under your watch.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>18</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Budget</title>
          <page.no>18</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Farrell. The two budgets of the Albanese Labor government have committed an additional $188 billion in spending, with economists describing your last budget as 'unambiguously expansionary' and 'likely to add to inflation'. Doesn't all the evidence show that Labor's fiscal policy is keeping inflation higher for longer and fuelling the cost-of-living crisis?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Scarr for his question. He obviously wasn't watching too closely on budget night, but, of course, this government produced a surplus—a $20 billion surplus. We've tried to make this a fairer country by improving wages and by trying to bring back some of the equality that we lost over the previous nine years. But, of course, by delivering a surplus, we put downward pressure on inflation. Yes, we rejigged spending in this country based on the commitments that we made to the Australian people when they rejected—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, please resume your seat. Order across the chamber, particularly on my left. Senator Farrell, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We rejigged and we reset the priorities of this country to make sure that we were looking after the people that really need looking after—not like your budgets, which just looked after your rich mates. We rejigged the budget to make sure that ordinary Australians were being looked after and, at the same time, simultaneously produced the first budget surplus in 15 years. It's something that you kept promising to do but you never, ever did. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It hardly inspires confidence, does it? Before the election, the Prime Minister claimed that Australians would have cheaper mortgages under Labor. With inflation continuing to rise under Labor, an average family with a $750,000 mortgage is already paying $22,000 more each year. Is this what the Prime Minister meant by 'cheaper mortgages'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Scarr for his first supplementary question. We do understand the hurt that ordinary Australians are feeling as a result of those increases in mortgage rates. Of course, the first point I'd make is that those increases started under your government and were a product of decisions—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay, Senator Scarr.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, the surplus didn't start under your government. The surplus started under this government. The fact that you keep—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But interest rates—you don't take any—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Who's asking the questions? Is it Scarr or is it Birmingham? President—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're not answering any of them.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That isn't true. I am answering. I'm answering directly the question that Senator— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my left! The constant interjections are disorderly. Senator Scarr, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister said in January, before his disastrous referendum campaign, 'My new year's resolution is just to continue to deal with cost-of-living pressures.' With Australians facing high mortgage payments as they head to Christmas and having to juggle high grocery prices and higher energy bills, why have the Treasurer and the Prime Minister still not released a comprehensive plan to get inflation under control and put downward, rather than upward, pressure on interest rates?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Scarr for his second supplementary question. Well, just on the referendum, the Prime Minister—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Down! Down!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>the Prime Minister went to the last election saying he would hold a referendum on an Indigenous Voice—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're still talking about the referendum.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>for the Australian Constitution, and he did exactly what he said he was going to do.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>He put the referendum—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>He also promised cheaper mortgages. How's that going, Don?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, I have just sat the minister down because of the interjections, particularly on my left. Thank you, Minister. Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister of this country stuck to his guns. He said he was going to do it and that's what he did. Regrettably, the Australian people said no, and we accept their decision.</para>
<para>Since that time, of course, we have been putting downward pressure on inflation. What did the coalition—your parties—do?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Downward pressure? It's going up!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, you've asked the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They voted against lower energy prices, they voted against cheaper child care— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade with China</title>
          <page.no>19</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Trade and Tourism, Senator Farrell. Stabilising our relationship with China is vitally important for Australia and important for Australian exporting businesses and workers. After all, China is our largest trading partner. Yesterday the Prime Minister met with China's President Xi in Beijing to continue stabilising our relationship and continue advocating for removal of the outstanding trade impediments affecting high-quality Australian products. How are the government's efforts to stabilise our trade relationship with China delivering practical outcomes for Australian exporters, producers and workers?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Tell us, Don, about your great work.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My mum used to say self-praise was no recommendation. I thank Senator Stewart for her question. I know just how important trade is to the great state of Victoria. Yesterday we witnessed a historic moment in our bilateral relationship with China when Prime Minister Albanese met with President Xi. This visit to China marked the 50th anniversary of Gough Whitlam's first visit to China. Positive, constructive dialogue is a win-win for both our economies. It delivers practical benefits for Australian exporters, businesses and workers. By having a more stable relationship with China, we've seen the return of so many wonderful Australian products to a market of 1.4 billion consumers.</para>
<para>Since coming to government, we've faced an incredible $20 billion worth of trade impediments on Australian exporters, but in the last 18 months we have made enormous progress. Between January and August of this year, Australia exported to China $6 billion worth of products that were previously subject to trade impediments. That is $6 billion worth of high-quality Australian product that has now re-entered Chinese markets due to the stabilisation efforts of our government.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, and Murray was helping too—don't you worry. It's a team effort—team Australia! We know that the barley farmers, the miners, the forestry workers, the hay producers—even the fruit pickers of this country in South Australia—are benefiting from the stabilising of our trading relationship with China. We are advocating for removal of all remaining trade impediments so that our wine growers and our meat producers can— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Stewart, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for that comprehensive answer. How is the government helping Australian exporters diversify their trade to ensure we remain economically resilient in the years ahead?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Stewart for her first supplementary question. Our government knows that, on the one hand, we need to stabilise our trading relationship with China but, on the other hand, we actively support Australian exporters diversifying their trade and supply chains, because, over the last few years, we've seen the perils of having all of your eggs in the one basket. That is why, next week, the Prime Minister and I will travel to the United States for key—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Another one?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, another one. We're continuing to deliver, Senator McKenzie, through the annual APEC meetings as well as by representing Australia in negotiations on the Indo-Pacific Economic Framework. These important trade meetings will help diversify our supply chains with many of the trading partners, making us more economically resilient to future shocks of the global economy.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Stewart, your second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We all know how much we love creating jobs on this side of the parliament, so, Minister, how does more trade help create Australian jobs and help reduce the costs of living for everyday Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> (—) (): I thank Senator Stewart for her second supplementary question. Of course, we've had record first-term-of-government growth in jobs, almost the equivalent of six MCG stadiums. Australia is economically stronger when global trade flows freely. We know that one in four Australian jobs relate to trade, and jobs in export industries pay five per cent higher wages on average. In addition, we know that trade creates a competitive environment, lowering prices and helping reduce the costs of living for everyday Australians, which is why we've worked so hard in the last year to deliver opportunities that advance our trade agenda by implementing trade agreements with India and the United Kingdom—something that the previous government, of course, couldn't do. This government is ensuring that trade— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Murray-Darling Basin Plan</title>
          <page.no>20</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, Senator Watt. Minister, in his second reading speech to the House on the Water Amendment (Water for the Environment Special Account) Bill 2012, then water minister Burke stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the plan being proposed by the Murray-Darling Basin Authority stipulates that additional water … only be acquired through methods that deliver additional water for the environment without negative social and economic consequences such as infrastructure.</para></quote>
<para>Why is this government refusing to release the details of the social and economic impact to communities if the proposed Murray-Darling water recovery strategy is implemented, which communities will be targeted and what impact it will have on the costs of living and at the supermarket for constituents?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for getting to the question, Senator Davey. In broad terms, for the reason this government, the Albanese government, is taking serious action about the Murray-Darling Basin, if you want to know why we're doing that, I'd suggest to the National Party: have a look in the mirror. Have a look in the mirror at the decade of inaction that the Liberal and National parties took over 10 years in implementing the Murray-Darling Basin Plan—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know you've got a lot to say in opposition, but you didn't have a lot to say in government, did you? You never had much to say about the fact that the Murray-Darling Basin—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Davey?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on a point of order on direct relevance. I wasn't asking about what we did in government; I was asking about why they're not releasing details on social and economic impacts.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Davey. I will draw—</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my right! Order. I will draw the minister to the last part of your question, but I also remind senators that there was significant preamble in that question, which the minister is entitled to address, as is the minister also entitled to address interjections. Minister Watt?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. As I said, if the Nationals want to understand why this government has to do something to rescue the Murray-Darling Basin then they only need to look back at their track record over the 10 years that they were in power. The Murray-Darling Basin Plan that the former government was allegedly committed to required the recovery of 450 gigalitres of water for the environment. Guess how much was recovered in 10 years of coalition government?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McAllister</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Was it one?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, Senator McAllister; to be fair, it was more than one—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McAllister</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was more than one?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was one more than one! It was two gigalitres out of the 450 gigalitres that were required under the plan which was delivered in 10 years of the National-Party-led coalition government.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Order on my left! And, Minister Watt, I will direct you to the last part of the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're serious about delivering the Murray-Darling Basin Plan and we're serious about doing it in a way that minimises the socioeconomic impact on basin communities.</para>
<para>Now, the Nationals like to portray themselves as the friends of agriculture while allowing the death of the most important food bowl in Australia.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What about barley?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're right, Senator Farrell: what did they do about barley? What did they do about lobster and what did they do about all sorts of trade that went under with China—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Davey.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I have a point of order again, on direct relevance. He's now going to lobster and barley trade with China. I'm asking about the social and economic impacts in the basin.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Davey. You will note—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How many jobs have you lost?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator McKenzie, you've had way too much to say in question time. I invite you to put your name on the list tonight if you have so much to say. Senator Davey, I have drawn the minister to your question, and I will remind him once again. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was saying, we have made clear that we will minimise the socioeconomic impact of implementing the plan. But what we will not do is allow the Murray-Darling Basin to collapse and undermine agriculture in this country. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Davey, a first supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for that nonanswer. The former water minister, Tony Burke, also said, in 20 February 2012, 'We don't do the environment, or anyone, a favour if we acquire volumes of water and have the impact that may have on communities, and then discover it can't actually be used.' Why is the government refusing to release details around which constraints programs it believes are needed to ensure environmental outcomes can be achieved?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Davey. Minister Burke was a very fine agriculture minister. He was also a very fine environment and water minister, who oversaw the delivery of the first Murray-Darling Basin Plan—a plan that is absolutely essential to deliver if we are to save agriculture on the eastern coast of our country. There are thousands of jobs and hundreds of communities that are depending upon the delivery of the Murray-Darling Basin Plan. They were profoundly let down by 10 years of Liberal and National Party governments, which delivered two gigalitres out of the 450 required for environmental recovery.</para>
<para>What we have said is that, in delivering our plan, we will provide more time for it to be delivered, we will provide more options to deliver the remaining water—including water efficiency infrastructure projects—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Davey.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, he has 13 seconds left and this is on direct relevance. I'm asking why they're refusing to release details around constraints projects. He hasn't mentioned constraints once.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Davey, I will also remind you that you referred to comments made by the former minister, Mr Burke—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's about constraints!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not your prerogative to argue back at me. You referred to 2012 and the minister is entitled to answer that aspect of your question. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, President. They don't like hearing about the fact that they let down Murray-Darling communities over 10 years. They don't like hearing about the fact that they undermined the future of Australian agriculture and the future of our most important food bowl. We're not going to let that happen and we're going to save the Murray-Darling Basin. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Davey, a second supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will try again to get an answer. Basin Communities Committee Indigenous member, Mr Feli McHughes, stated recently, 'I'm very concerned that buybacks will further spiral our people in these communities into poverty'. When will the government listen to basin communities and voices like Mr McHughes's, and look at alternatives being proposed, like billabong restoration and complementary measures?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Davey. Senator Davey has just exemplified the National Party's approach to this entire issue, which is to misrepresent the government's position in inquiries, in the media and to basin communities.</para>
<para>We have made very clear over and over again that we do think that voluntary water buybacks are going to be necessary to save the Murray-Darling Basin, and they weren't required and weren't delivered under the former government.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is on relevance. I did not mention voluntary buybacks. I mentioned complementary measures and other projects.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my right! Senator Davey, you did mention buybacks. The minister is being relevant. Minister, please continue.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, if Senator Davey had allowed me to answer the question, what I was saying is that we have said that it is going to be necessary to undertake voluntary water buybacks to deliver the plan. But we have also repeatedly said that it is not the only option that we are considering. We are considering water efficiency infrastructure projects, but Senator Davey and people like her go around basin communities misrepresenting the government's policy and pretending it's only about buybacks. We have also said that all buybacks will be voluntary. We have also said that they will be done across the basin in order to minimise the impact on any one particular community. And we have also said that, where they do have a negative impact on communities, there will be structural adjustment assistance provided. It would be good if the National Party were honest for a change. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade: Department of Defence</title>
          <page.no>23</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Defence. Over recent years Australians have been watching in increasing horror as reports of war crimes and human rights abuses take place from Yemen to Ukraine, from Gaza to West Papua. Can you tell the Australian public exactly what Australian weapons have been sold under your government and to which countries?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Shoebridge. Thanks, Senator Farrell, that is the one I was looking for. It's a two-way helping relationship we have here. We are a team—again, something that is a foreign concept to those opposite. The party of individualism even extends to the Senate chamber where they won't help out their mates—in fact, they'd rather stab a knife in the back of their mates.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, I draw you to the question.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But I digress. Senator Shoebridge, you are aware that I am not able to confirm the details of particular arms exports to any country in the world. You are aware of that because I know that this was covered in some detail at Senate estimates when you were asking questions about this very matter, so you do know that we can't do that. What you also know is that Australia's defence exports are conducted in line with robust export guidelines and international obligations. The Department of Defence assesses each export application on its own merits against the relevant legislative criteria under the Defence Trade Controls Act 2012. This legislation addresses a range of issues, including those that you have raised. Those issues include foreign policy, human rights, national security and Australia's international obligations. If Defence identifies an export would be contrary to Australia's national interest or pose risks to Australia's security, defence or international relations, the permit is refused.</para>
<para>Under this government Australia's export controls regime provides a balance between protecting our defence and security interests, meeting our international obligations, including around human rights and arms trading, and supporting Australia's sovereign industrial capability. I will be clear about this: the government appreciates this is a complex and sensitive area of public policy that must account for security interests, human rights obligations and the viability of domestic industry.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, first supplementary?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We know that this year alone your government authorised 52 defence export permits to Israel. As the Israeli government engages in war crimes in Gaza, can you provide the Australian public with information on what military equipment these permits contain and if there are any currently before the government awaiting approval?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, Senator Shoebridge, I refer you to my first answer and I refer you to the many answers you were provided at Senate estimates where you were told that we are not going to provide details about individual arrangements with individual countries. But, as was also pointed out to you, Senator Shoebridge, at Senate estimates, when we're talking about defence exports we're not just talking about weapons and we're not just talking about arms. We're also talking about what is known as dual-use technology, things like radios or other technology and communications equipment, so you shouldn't assume that the existence of a permit means that a weapon has been exported to any country, whether that be Israel or any other.</para>
<para>But, for very good reason, we don't go around broadcasting details of export permits that we have with any particular country, because there are national security issues at stake, and this is a government that takes national security seriously.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Distressingly, once Australia authorises weapons to leave our shores, we are not obliged in any way to follow up on how they are used. Will the Albanese government take responsibility and introduce policy that requires the Australian government to monitor the military equipment exported from Australia to ensure that it is not used to commit war crimes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Shoebridge. Again, you wouldn't expect me, especially as a representing minister, to be making Australian government policy in Senate question time. But the broad position that we take—as I say, we're not broadcasting individual details—is that, as I have already answered, the matters around human rights and the usage of defence exports, whether they be weapons or other forms of technology, are taken into account in the granting of a particular permit or the extension of permits in the future. So these are exactly the types of issues that are taken into account by the Department of Defence in reaching decisions about whether they would grant a particular export permit.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is to relevance. My question wasn't as to consideration done at the time of the permit but once the weapons have been sold, and the minister is refusing to address that point.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is being relevant, thank you, Senator Shoebridge.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I say, Senator Shoebridge, these matters are taken into account. The record of particular buyers of defence exports is taken into account in determining the success or otherwise of a particular export application. I can't really add anything further to what you heard at Senate estimates.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Renewable Energy</title>
          <page.no>24</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is also to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Watt. Given the opposition are opposed to building the renewable energy that our country needs and the Leader of the Nationals is calling for a pause in the rollout of renewables, can the minister please explain to the Senate how recent data and analysis show that renewable energy is cleaner, cheaper and reducing energy prices?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Grogan. Minister Watt. Well, you've already used the trigger words for half the opposition: 'climate change' and 'renewables'.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Whoo! They lose it every time. Senator Grogan, I thank you for your question. I can confirm that new analysis shows that Australian households are saving from 39 to 57 per cent on their energy bills when they have rooftop solar installed. Imagine that: installing solar panels and saving on your energy bills.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, Watt, please resume your seat. Order! Senator McKenzie, order! Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It seems that the opposition hates the idea of Australians saving money on their energy bills. But, by installing those rooftop solar panels, Australians are generating savings of between $822 and $1,350 per household on power bills, and that makes a significant difference to the hip pockets of Australian families. That's because, as this side of the chamber knows—and we have many examples right now before us of what that side of the chamber doesn't know—renewable energy is the cheapest form of energy. One in three Australian homes now have a solar installation, and the total small-scale solar capacity of Australia's 3.5 million household installations exceeds 21 gigawatts. That's the equivalent of 10 to 15 large coal-fired power stations. I am proud to say, Senator Rennick, that some of the biggest benefits are in Queensland. In South-East Queensland households with solar save 44 per cent on their bills, and in regional Queensland, Senator Canavan, households are saving 57 per cent on their bills. The Australian Energy Market Operator's latest report shows that the 31 per cent growth in rooftop solar output helped drive a 71 per cent reduction in wholesale prices in a year by reducing demand on the grid and reducing the use of more expensive sources of fuel during the day. That's why the Albanese government is ensuring wider access to cleaner, cheaper solar.</para>
<para>Senator Grogan is right: the Nationals leader, Mr Littleproud, did call for a pause on renewables. At a time when Australians are dealing with cost-of-living pressures, the Nationals want to pause the price reductions Aussies are getting through renewables. We're getting on with the job of rolling out renewables. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Grogan, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>They're some impressive statistics, Senator Watt. Solar energy is really making a significant difference for so many people in this country. This month, Australians will receive further instalments on their energy rebates as part of the responsible cost-of-living support being rolled out by the Albanese government. Could you outline for us how many Australians are going to benefit from these rebates?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Rennick, for confirming that the opposition's policy is to continue to oppose energy rebates. Thank you for confirming that, Senator Rennick. Unlike the opposition, the Albanese government's No. 1 priority is addressing inflation and cost-of-living pressures. That's why we are delivering targeted relief without adding to inflation. We're delivering energy price relief rebates to more than five million households and one million small businesses, to provide hundreds of dollars off bills. These will benefit eligible households by up to $500 and small businesses by up to $650 in total per year and are credited to power bills throughout the year. For households receiving rebates, bill increases in most jurisdictions have been completely offset and have decreased by up to 18 per cent for the most vulnerable Australians.</para>
<para>Of course, not everyone in this chamber voted for that energy bill relief. When we voted for cheaper energy, Peter Dutton and the coalition said no. When we voted for cleaner energy, Peter Dutton and the coalition said no. But, when it comes to cost-of-living relief, Labor says yes. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I remind you, when using the names of people in the other chamber, to use their correct titles. Senator Grogan, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Watt, for outlining that over the awful din from the other side of the chamber. I note that at the end of last year the Liberals and Nationals teamed up and voted against energy price relief for Australians and that Peter Dutton has said that, just like Reagan, he 'will wind back government intervention'. Given this, can the minister please inform the Senate how the coal and gas price caps are providing much-needed relief to Australian homes and businesses? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Grogan, I also remind you to refer to people in the other chamber by their correct titles.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A recent report by the Australian Energy Regulator showed that wholesale electricity prices for the last quarter were less than half of those in the same period last year. And this highlights the significant impact that the Albanese government's coal and gas price caps are having on Australian power bills. We know that the job is not yet done when it comes to assisting with cost-of-living relief, but we've introduced a range of measures like this to add weight and assist Australians. But, for these caps that we introduced and we voted for, guess how the coalition voted? They voted no. When we voted to cap coal and gas prices, the coalition said no. And, of course, before he went off on his most recent world tour, Mr Dutton—they don't like being reminded, but we're going to keep reminding people—told an energy conference, 'Just like Reagan, we will wind back government intervention.' Now, what sort of intervention is Mr Dutton going to wind back? Is it coal and gas prices, or is it energy rebates? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expire</inline><inline font-style="italic">d)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>25</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Minister Farrell: Last week, the Treasurer delivered a keynote speech where he acknowledged:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… without more decisive action across all levels of government, working with investors, industry and communities, the energy transition could fall short of what the country needs.</para></quote>
<para>And yet the government still hasn't announced a comprehensive or credible response to the US Inflation Reduction Act. What is the reason for the delay, and does the government accept that we are losing the race for capital?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Pocock for his question. The short answer to your question, Senator Pocock, is no. I think there is a degree of misunderstanding about how the United States Inflation Reduction Act actually works. If you have a look at the legislation, of course—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Tell us!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to tell you, Senator Scarr, and you might learn something today.</para>
<para>The American legislation, the Inflation Reduction Act, provides that, starting at 40 per cent and then moving to 80 per cent, all of the critical minerals that are going to go into the batteries of electric cars in the United States have to come from countries that have two criteria. Firstly, they have the resources and, of course, once again Australia is the lucky country because we have either the largest or the second-largest deposit of all of the critical minerals that are going to go into the batteries of the future. Secondly, they have to have a free trade agreement with the United States. Australia is one of very few countries which have both of those criteria. What that means is a huge amount of investment, not just from the United States but also from Japan, Korea, Singapore—if we get lucky—maybe even the Europeans. So you can talk down the Inflation Reduction Act. In addition to that, what has California done? Well, California has mandated that by 20— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, critical minerals are one part of the Inflation Reduction Act. I note that the government's contribution is less than Microsoft's investment, which the Prime Minister also seemed to help announce. I am interested in why the government isn't implementing a production tax credit as we have seen in the US. Payment for outcomes—you produce solar panels here in Australia, we will give you a tax credit. What's the government doing on this?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Pocock for his first supplementary question. Look, we are developing a response to the Inflation Reduction Act. I have tried to put into perspective the positive aspects of that piece of legislation. I didn't go into the negative aspects of that legislation and they relate to other forms of energy, such as hydrogen. One of the discussions that we're having with the United States at the moment is ensuring that the price that they sell their hydrogen at doesn't undercut any production of hydrogen. Of course, all of the states right now are looking at the way in which they can get into that hydrogen cycle. I know from South Australia's point of view just how much work and effort are going into the development at Port Bonython. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is the Albanese government happy to use Australian companies for renewable energy photo ops but not back this up with tangible support in response in the Inflation Reduction Act to keep those companies here in Australia producing Australian-made products at a time when we hear so much about national security and sovereign capability?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Pocock for his second supplementary question. Well, I don't accept the premise of that question. I think this government is moving in exactly the right direction to maximise the benefit for this country both in investment and in jobs in respect of all of those critical minerals and the new energy sources. This government intends to build Australia as a renewable superpower. All of the things we're doing, whether it's the National Reconstruction Fund, whether it's trying to encourage investment from overseas in our resources because we have always required that sort of investment— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just for the benefit of the chamber, Senator Van had the next question but he has given that to Senator Babet.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>26</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Finance, Minister Farrell. A recent statement by the IMF, the International Monetary Fund, stated that the Australian government 'should implement public investment projects at a more measured and coordinated' pace'—for example, infrastructure—'to alleviate inflationary pressures'. Now, I'm not usually one to support bodies like the IMF, but the government—both sides of this chamber—loves to bend the knee to unelected globalist bodies. It just so happens that, this time, I agree with them and they're speaking my language! To play your role in tempering inflation, what wasteful projects will your government potentially cancel or maybe delay?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>FARRELL (—) (): I thank Senator Babet for his question and the opportunity to answer it in a fulsome way. Of course, I start by going back in time a little bit to indicate just the sort of mess that the coalition left us in. After 10 years of announcement upon announcement upon announcement but then no delivery, we are now delivering on an infrastructure program that is fit for purpose—and I stress the term 'fit for purpose'—fiscally responsible but, above all, deliverable.</para>
<para>Now, as you say, we commissioned an independent review to ensure our infrastructure program is deliverable and does not place added pressure on inflation and the cost of living, two issues that I know you're concerned about. This review was necessary because the former government was all about announcement and no delivery. Projects were left without adequate funding or resources, and projects without real benefits to the public were approved. No doubt the National Party was mixed up in all of those sorts of decisions. Minister King said the review has found more than $33 billion in cost overruns across the infrastructure investment program, with a high likelihood of future, as-yet-unknown cost increases. Minister King is working closely with the states and territories to determine the outcome of the review. The former government announced projects without checking if they were priorities of the state first—no surprises in that—and this resulted in those projects being stalled for years or, worse, costs blowing out. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Babet, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. We're talking now about wasteful projects and talking about the previous government. Fair enough. Let's speak about that for a second. Let's speak about Snowy 2.0. Snowy 2.0 is a wasteful project; we all know that. It was the Liberals' idea; it wasn't even your idea. It went to $2 billion and then to $5.9 billion, and now we're looking at $12 billion. The boring machine—the one that digs all the tunnels and things like that—has been bogged for about a year. It got stuck. What are you going to do to fill that hole? Are you going to cut your losses and give up? How about nuclear instead? How about that? Let's give up on Snowy 2.0.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I again thank Senator Babet for his question. No, we're not going to give up. This is not a government that gives up. I understand what you're saying about the cost overruns for Snowy 2.0, but the reality is that, if we're going to move to that renewable future—to the status, as I described in a previous answer today, of renewables superpower—we do need Snowy 2.0 to work. Despite the underresourcing by the former government and despite all the promises, we will be the government that delivers on that. It's important from this point of view—I'm sorry to keep harping on South Australia, but I happen to know a lot about it— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Babet, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for attempting to answer the question. Now, projects like Snowy 2.0 take skilled tradespeople away from the residential construction sector at a time when we're facing a housing shortage. Do you agree that wasteful infrastructure projects like Snowy 2.0 are contributing to our skilled labour shortage? If they are, shouldn't we at least pause them for a little while, at least temporarily, to help people struggling with housing? Might that not be a good idea? A better idea is to go for nuclear instead, but anyway!</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Babet. You're very focused on nuclear there, I notice. Just finishing what I was going to say in my previous answer: we have surplus solar energy in South Australia during the day. That can be used to pump water up to the top of the Snowy and to produce energy at night, when we don't have solar.</para>
<para>But, under the Liberals and the Nationals, the number of infrastructure projects in the pipeline blew out from 150 to almost 800, and the projects were left without adequate funding, resources or, more importantly, genuine commitment. It would be irresponsible to move ahead without fixing the backlog and cleaning up the mess that the former government left behind, and that's why Minister King has commissioned an independent review of the Infrastructure Investment Program. This review has allowed the federal and the state— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Personnel</title>
          <page.no>27</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Defence.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, could you resume your seat? Order across the chamber! I expect Senator Lambie to be able to ask her question in silence. Senator Lambie, we'll reset the clock. Please start again.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Defence. Last month, I asked a question on the ADF pay increase being at a rate that is actually a pay cut. In response to my question on Australian Defence Force pay, Minister Wong said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the pay increase that is recommended, on the advice I have, is above the RBA's estimates for inflation over the next three years.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, since that time, we have all heard from the new Reserve Bank governor, Michele Bullock, from the International Monetary Fund and from lots of economists that the economy is not cooling as quickly as the RBA initially forecast. Minister, why is your government sticking to its guns on a pay cut for our diggers?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Lambie. I don't think anyone in this chamber disputes your commitment to our troops, and, obviously, you're former service personnel yourself, and I know that you've got a very deep commitment here.</para>
<para>Of course, the government, in managing its budget, have to make responsible offers when we're undertaking enterprise bargaining or any other form of negotiation with people who are paid by the Commonwealth government. There's a wide range of sectors within the Public Service that are currently in enterprise bargaining negotiations. We always try to put forward what we consider to be a fair offer as a government that does believe in wages being lifted, but we obviously also have to operate within a budget and try to make sure that those are responsible offers that we put forward.</para>
<para>I know, Senator Lambie, that, in addition to the basic pay rates that you're talking about, you've got an interest in issues around recruitment and retention of Defence personnel. You'd be aware that our government have announced a retention bonus for ADF personnel, which would see them receive a $50,000 retention bonus toward the end of their initial period of service if they commit to remain in the ADF for a further three years. That's going to be an initial two-year pilot before being extended based on its results. I recognise that that's not exactly what you're talking about in terms of the basic pay rates to our troops, but we are trying to find ways of delivering fair remuneration for troops in recognition of the service that they provide and the danger that they put themselves in each and every day. So this is something that we'll keep working on, but, as I say, we do need to undertake all of these pay rises within an overall responsible budget strategy.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Defence public servants have been offered the same pay increase as uniformed ADF: 11.2 per cent over three years. The Public Service, which has a very active union, see this for what it is—a pay cut—and are taking industrial action to address it. Our diggers, on the other hand, have to smile and take what the CDF gives them, while their unique service to our country goes unrecognised. Minister, why is it that the Public Service union has a seat at the negotiating table while diggers have to take what the CDF gives them?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Lambie. I think, in one respect, you've put forward exactly why unions play such an important role in the workplace by being able to bring employees together to negotiate on behalf of everyone to seek a better deal.</para>
<para>Of course, as a former service woman you would be aware that there aren't unions covering service people. I guess that means that they don't benefit from the union arrangements that are in place for other members who work for the Department of Defence. But one thing I would like to mention is that beyond the basic pay rates and pay rises that are awarded or provided to ADF personnel, of course ADF members' remuneration has also increased through additional factors such as allowances. Salary and allowance increases have been delivered through a combination of an increase through a new salary related allowance framework and a new workplace remuneration arrangement. I am happy to provide you with details of that if that would be of interest.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, second supplementary?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just a few moments ago the Reserve Bank of Australia lifted interest rates again, this time by 25 points. They did this because they got their early inflation forecast wrong again. Minister, do you finally accept that your government sold diggers a dud and that you are the Christmas Grinch handing out pay cuts for Christmas?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, no, I wouldn't accept that position. In fact, this government has done more than most when it comes to providing cost-of-living relief for all Australians, whether they be service personnel or any other working person in the community. You're aware of some of the things we have done that benefit service personnel just as much as they do any other worker, whether it be cheaper medicines or cheaper child care, and in some cases people would be eligible for energy rebates and a range of other measures as well.</para>
<para>I am aware the independent Reserve Bank board has today raised interest rates by 25 basis points, and we know that that decision will hit Australians hard. What we are doing about it is providing as much cost-of-living relief as we possibly can while recording a budget surplus—something that the coalition government were unable to do for the entire 10 years that they were in government—to take pressure off inflation and pressure off interest rates. We understand that this will be hitting a lot of Australians hard, and we will keep working hard to provide as much cost-of- living relief as we can. For a change, it would be nice to have the opposition's support.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicare</title>
          <page.no>28</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care, Senator Farrell. Last week the Albanese government tripled the incentives that general practitioners receive to bulk-bill children under 16, pensioners and other concession cardholders. How many Australians will benefit from the increase to the bulk-billing incentive, and how will this make it easier for Australians to see a doctor?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Smith for her question and for the great work that she does as a senator for South Australia. Bulk-billing is the beating heart of Medicare, and Labor will always strengthen it. The May budget provided an historic $6.1 billion investment in Medicare to lay the foundations for significant reforms to general practice and primary care for all Australians. We have boosted indexation of Medicare payments, with boosts in July and November delivering the largest increase to Medicare payments since Paul Keating was prime minister. In fact, the Albanese government has delivered a larger increase in one year than the former government delivered over seven years. From 1 November the incentives that general practitioners receive to bulk-bill children under 16, pensioners and other Commonwealth concession cardholders will be tripled for most common GP consults. It will be easier to find—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If you can find a GP!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You let them down too. You didn't deliver enough of them, Senator McKenzie—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Changing the district of workforce shortages means there are fewer doctors,</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>another failure of your government. It will be easier to find a bulk-billing doctor for around five million children and their families and seven million pensioners and other concession cardholders. Together, these patients account for three out of five visits to GPs. These changes mean that we are making it easier to see a bulk-billing doctor for more than 11 million Australians.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Do you really believe that?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I do believe it. I do believe it because when we say we're going to do something, unlike your government, Senator Ruston, we do it. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How are those energy bills going?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Smith, first supplementary?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline to the Senate how investing in stronger Medicare delivers better primary healthcare services for all Australians as well as any other actions that the government is taking to improve access to high-quality, affordable health care, including in our beautiful state of South Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I agree with you, Senator Smith: it is a beautiful state. Strengthening Medicare provides us with a foundation to rebuild primary health care after a decade of neglect and cuts. This won't happen overnight, but we've begun the task of delivering the improvements that are so badly needed. We've introduced a new Medicare rebate for GP consultations of 60 minutes or longer, giving patients a rebate of $191.20 and doctors the time to provide better care for people with complex conditions. We are making vital medicines cheaper to millions of Australians, and South Australians are saving $12 million since 1 January this year. And we have opened 36 Medicare urgent care clinics around the country, including five across South Australia, with Marion and Elizabeth clinics now up and running. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How have these changes introduced by the Albanese government been greeted by health consumers and peak organisations representing Australian doctors and general practitioners, and how do the changes demonstrate the government's commitment to strengthening Medicare?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Smith for her second supplementary question. We're absolutely determined to strengthen Medicare. The coalition only ever supports Medicare through gritted teeth. We remember John Howard describing bulk-billing as a complete rort. Peter Dutton tried to strangle it, first by attempting to introduce a GP tax and then by freezing Medicare rebates for six long years.</para>
<para>This government is committed to a strong Medicare. Our actions to strengthen Medicare have been described as 'a game changer' by the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. The president of the college, Dr Nicole Higgins, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This … funding … puts patients first.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will help to stem the bleeding, relieve pressure on our entire healthcare system including our hospitals, and ease pressures on people struggling to afford the care that they need.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. I remind you to refer to others in the other place by their correct titles.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Interest Rates</title>
          <page.no>29</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Farrell. How much more per month will a family with a $750,000 mortgage have to pay as a result of today's interest rate increase?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Hume. Of course, the independent Reserve Bank board has today raised interest rates, regrettably, by 25 basis points, taking the official cash rate to 4.35 per cent. Of course, we understand that today's decision will hit Australians hard. The price pressures that we face are coming at us from around the world, but they're hitting the hip pockets of ordinary Australians the hardest. That's why our highest priority is rolling out the $23 billion in cost-of-living relief.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. Senator Hume?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hume</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance, Madam President: the question was quite specific. For a family with a $750,000 mortgage, how much more per month do they need to pay after today's rate rise?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will draw the minister to your question. Thank you, Senator Hume.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And I will remind senators across the chamber that the minister has the right to be heard in—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pratt, I just called the Senate to order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't have the specific figures on that amount of money, but I can tell you, Senator Hume, that, following the RBA's decision, the monthly repayment on the average existing $360,000 loan balance would increase by $57 a month, to $2,569.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How much more, Senator Farrell, will a family with a $750,000 mortgage be paying each year on their mortgage payments compared to when you came to office?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I said in my previous answer, Senator Hume, that I didn't have the figure on that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hume</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's in the newspapers today.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well then, why are you asking me the question if you already know the answer? Why are you wasting our time? I can go to the figure for a $360,000 loan—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. Order! Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I can go to the figure of a $360,000 loan. That would increase the figure to $2,506—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. I will come to you, Senator Birmingham, but I am going to ask for order. Senator Hughes, I just called the Senate to order, and the minute, almost, that the minister got back on his feet you were interjecting very loudly. That is very disrespectful. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, a point of order: the minister was asked very clearly about the increase Australians are facing throughout the life of the Albanese Labor government. It defies belief that he doesn't have something in his briefing that indicates how much more people are paying under the Albanese Labor government. Isn't it $24,000 a year?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat. That is not a point of order; it's a debating point.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Thank you. Order! I invite all of those senators who wish to debate this to make themselves available at the many opportunities during the rest of the week, not during question time. Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I say to Senator Birmingham that it's not helping those people who've got this extra cost to—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cash</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You don't know what the cost is! You don't know what it is!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's your job to help them, Don! You're the government; it's your job to help them!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've reported the figures that I have available. It's very clear that the 0.25 per cent has gone up, and those figures can easily be calculated.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, order! Senator McGrath, order! Senator Hume, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To save Minister Watt from using his fingers, the answer is somewhere between $22,000 and $24,000 a year more. Will you, Senator Farrell, agree or disagree that it is your government's responsibility to bring inflation down?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I agree, and that's exactly what we are doing. On that note, I will ask that further questions be put on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>31</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Budget, Interest Rates</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Trade and Tourism (Senator Farrell) to questions without notice asked by Senator Scarr and Senator Hume today relating to interest rates.</para></quote>
<para>We saw at the end of question time that the acting Leader of the Government in the Senate—and I think we're all going to be very relieved when Senator Wong returns—was completely unable to give Australians any reassurance that this Labor government has a clue about how to deal with the inflation and cost-of-living crisis that is facing families, small businesses and medium-sized businesses right across Australia. In fact, the modus operandi of those opposite seems to be that a lie told often enough becomes the truth. This is a quote attributed to Vladimir Lenin—perhaps not surprisingly, someone from the Left—but it actually predates Vladimir Lenin.</para>
<para>But there is a truth to it in relation to the way that this government is operating. They want to blame the previous government for interest rate rises, all of which—bar one—have been under their watch. They've delivered two budgets since gaining office, and it is their economic settings that the RBA look at when they decide whether or not to raise interest rates. We've seen this pattern a couple of times now. The RBA paused interest rate rises before the government handed down the last budget. The RBA said, 'We're going to pause, wait, look at the government's budget and decide what to do.' They waited a month and then they raised interest rates. Then they paused again, waited, and watched this government and what they were doing in relation to their own balance sheet to address the inflationary issues in our economy. And the RBA has raised interest rates again today.</para>
<para>That hits Australian families hard and that hits small businesses extraordinarily hard. They're facing cost pressures from so many directions. It's not just from the interest rate rises on their borrowings—whether that be a mortgage or a small business loan—but also from cost-of-living pressures from their suppliers and when they're going down to the shops, buying the groceries, filling up their car at the petrol station and paying their electricity bills. A lie told often enough can turn into the truth. The Labor Party keeps saying electricity prices are coming down; it's simply not true—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Neill</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a point of order: there is a general sensibility about the use of the word 'lie', and I think the implication in the member's contribution is at odds with standing orders. I'd just draw your attention to that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Senator Brockman?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Brockman</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was referring generally to the Labor Party, not to an individual. And I was referring to an historic quote which I'm sure is very well known, not just to people in this place but to all Australians.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're trying to get rid of the word lie from the lexicon of the chamber, so I'd ask you to exercise restraint. I think it was a quote, but I didn't hear it carefully.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I won't repeat the quote, even though it's a very famous quote. Clearly those opposite—in this chamber and as a government—are terribly sensitive about their approach to public policy if they can't even stand mild criticism. They continuously trot out this claim that electricity prices are falling, when every single Australian knows when they receive their electricity bill that those prices are going up and up and up. Not one Australian has seen a reduction in their energy bills off the back of anything this government has done.</para>
<para>Let's just go through some of the numbers we've seen in the last 15 months under the Labor Party. The cost of food is up 8.2 per cent, the cost of housing is up 10.4 per cent, the cost of insurance is up 17.3 per cent, the cost of electricity is up 18.2 per cent and the cost of gas is up 28 per cent. Yet those opposite have the gall to criticise us for voting against their terrible policy in relation to electricity and their awful policy in terms of gas. These policies are adding to the inflationary pressures in the economy, not taking inflationary pressures out of the economy. This Labor government have no clue how to deal with inflation. Their budgets pushed more money into the economy. A number of senior economists have said that Labor budgets were pushing inflationary pressures into the economy. Today, with this interest rate rise, we see the result of Labor's policies.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In response to those take notes: we've got a situation here where these are the people who, when we came into government, had left a trillion dollars in future debt. These are the people who have turned around and come in here to lecture us about what needs to be done in the Australian economy.</para>
<para>We know people are doing it tough; they're doing it tough because of the policies of those opposite. And they're doing it tough for lots of other reasons. We have implemented $23 billion worth of cost-of-living support across this economy and for people right across this country. And what have the opposition done? When we put up investing in energy bills relief, the Liberals and Nationals voted against it. We put in cost-of-living relief for energy, and they voted against it. What did they do when it came to cheaper medicines? People are struggling in our communities, trying to deal with the cost of living and what did those opposite do? They voted against that relief. That's what they're about: a trillion dollars of debt and voting against cost-of-living relief. When it came to cheaper child care, what did they do? Surprise, surprise! They voted against that as well. That's because they cannot see an opportunity to turn around and support the Australian public. When there are the hard times that people are facing at the moment, what do they do? They just want to make them harder!</para>
<para>We call for relief and we put policies forward to make sure there's relief and opportunity to turn around and actually have the economy be more productive—to get family members out there to work by having cheaper child care. What did they do? They voted against it. We do sensible relief and they vote against it. We do financial relief and they vote against it. We can look at increased rent assistance and boosting income support payments, which the Liberals and Nationals were against too. How many things can they be against?</para>
<para>Well, there actually are more! They were against affordable homes—they were against affordable homes in this country, in these tough times! They couldn't even get that right! They're against every measure to make it easier for the Australian public in these tough times. They gave us a trillion dollars in debt and then they voted against cost-of-living relief and things that could make this economy more supportive to the rest of the community.</para>
<para>But, don't worry: we invested in things that make the cost of living cheaper for people who are doing TAFE. That's because we want to organise people to have more opportunity, including not only those who are socially disadvantaged but others in our community across the regions, states and urban areas of our country through hundreds of thousands of fee-free TAFE places. You might think, 'That's a logical thing; they'd vote for that one, wouldn't they?' They voted against that as well! We're trying to get productivity boosts in this economy, with the opportunities for more jobs, more training and more skills to make sure that Australians have those opportunities, and they voted against them. It's cost-of-living relief and also a productivity boost, and they voted against it.</para>
<para>We can start looking at some of these things they voted against and some of their comments. I think the fee-free TAFE is just a real bobby-dazzler. When we think of that one, there are some of the comments made by the shadow minister for skills and training, the deputy opposition leader. Her view was that paying for fee-free TAFE, or having it in the first place, was a waste of money. They voted against it; they ridiculed people doing TAFE. They ridiculed all those people out there, all those apprentices, who have turned around and are making sure that we have a better and well-trained community with the opportunities out there. They voted against it and they spoke against it. They demeaned it!</para>
<para>Then we can look at some of the comments made by others about cost-of-living pressures when it comes to wages—every wage initiative we have taken. There was the minimum wage and extra payments for aged-care workers, which had been recommended by the royal commission. Those were things which meant that our loved ones actually have the care they need and that the 250,000 workers in that largely feminised industry have a more decent rate of pay. And what did they do? They voted against it! Minimum wage increases: they voted against them! At every opportunity to have companies and workers work together for better wages and more productivity, involving employer bargaining, they voted against it. It's because they just don't like the idea that people stand together and look after each other. That's what you do when things are tough; you don't sit on your hands and do nothing!</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On a day when interest rates have hit 4.35 per cent, and after 12 interest rate rises under this government, Australians are going to be doing it very hard if they have a mortgage. At least a third of the Australian public are going to be under great pressure. There are definitely going to be Australians that are going to look at this and say, 'That won't affect me directly,' but at least a third of the populace have got a mortgage. By representing a state like New South Wales with a large city like Sydney within it, I know that there are many people across Sydney that have very large mortgages, and they will be looking at this result today, of the interest rates going up, and thinking: 'How am I going to make this all work? How am I going to make it stack up for my own personal circumstances?' The consequence here is that people will in some ways have to economise. In other ways, they will have to have a conversation with their bank. Some people will not be able to continue, and they will lose their homes. And that is the great tragedy of this outcome today.</para>
<para>Being in the position of having 12 rate rises in a row is a direct result, a direct consequence, of the government's fiscal policy. We had Senate estimates last week, and I asked the Governor of the Reserve Bank whether the government was running a contractionary fiscal policy. The governor told me that fiscal policy was neutral. So it's not contractionary. So here you are with the Reserve Bank of Australia raising interest rates 12 times under the Labor government, and that same governor, Ms Bullock, is telling the government, 'Cut spending. Help us.' We want the government to run a contractionary fiscal policy because that is the best thing the government can do to reduce pressure on the Reserve Bank, which is now smashing mortgage holders. So, indirectly, the government is making it so much harder for mortgage holders across Australia to keep their homes and to do what they want to do with their own money. This is a hugely regrettable day.</para>
<para><inline font-style="italic">A government senator interjecting</inline>—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, I didn't hear that? What's that?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not a conversation, Senator Bragg. It's through me.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I couldn't hear it. I just wanted to hear it. I'm sure it would have been a good one. It's always good to try and hear the interjection if you can!</para>
<para>Ultimately, though, the Australian people have two major problems with this particular economic strategy the government has deployed. The first is that it is a government for vested interests. The only policies this government is interested in are policies which enrich the unions and the major super funds. That is the policy of the government: vested interests. The unions and the big super funds run this country with Labor in office. The only policies you want to see in this chamber are things the unions and super funds want. Pattern bargaining, the abolition of labour hire, more and more money for their mates in the super funds—the whole government is run for vested interests.</para>
<para>The second issue is that when you only have time to look after your best mates—the people who run your pre-selections, fund your campaigns and do everything for you on polling day—you have no time to look after the major issues facing the Australian people. I hate to break it to the government, but the major issue facing most people under 40 in this country is housing. What's happened today with the interest rate going up has made it so much harder for people to stay in a house and even harder for young people to get into a first home. The government says it doesn't care about people and their housing needs. They brush their hands and they laugh off this new interest rate rise today. After 12 interest rate rises under this government, which are going to make a bad situation with housing so much worse, particularly in Sydney, the government can just laugh and sneer, as we saw in question time and now here in the Senate chamber.</para>
<para>The disappointing thing here is that the government could be doing a lot to help mortgage holders. But they have chosen to run, as the Reserve Bank governor herself has said, a neutral fiscal policy, when they should be running a contractionary fiscal policy to help the Reserve Bank do its job.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I relish the opportunity to make a contribution on this important day, because I really do care about the third of Australians who are going to find it difficult to stay in their homes. But I'm disappointed by the nature and the quality of the questions and the attitude that we've seen. It's almost gleeful delight from those in opposition that this is a tough time for Australians, because they can manufacture that into some sort of political campaign. In the meantime, we are the government that has to act responsibly and in the national interest, and responsibly managing the budget is a vital task. That's why I'm proud to be a Labor senator alongside the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, who after all the promises of the previous government delivered the first surplus Australia's seen in decades.</para>
<para>Economic responsibility is a signature of a good government, and we have to do the very best we can for Australians. That is why we've got two things we have to do. One of them is certainly to really watch what's happening in terms of inflation. But it's not the government that determines when a rate should rise, when the Reserve Bank raises or lowers rates. It is the Reserve Bank that does it independent of government. The reason that's done is the wisdom of establishing that separation. Of course as a government you don't want to see people suffer. You don't want to see that suffering and that hurt. We want to do everything we can to support people. But the reality is that, just as COVID was an international phenomenon, so is inflation. It is like a disease in the economy, and we don't live in an economy that sits outside the world. We are part of the world. With the increase in the rates that did come through today, we are responding to that as a nation at the direction of the RBA.</para>
<para>In New Zealand their current policy rate is 5.5 per cent. They've raised their rates by 525 basis points—5.25 per cent. Ours is now 4.35. Listen to the comparators. In the US they've raised it by 5.25. In Canada they've raised it by 4.75 per cent. The European Central Bank raised it by 4.5 per cent, and in England they raised it by 5.15 per cent. No-one, no government, wants to see inflation rise. No government can afford to allow it to fester. We have to use the tools that we have, and the responsible direction of the RBA is critical to what we do. But, while we are suffering that pain as a nation together—every single one of us who has a mortgage or loves somebody who does, making up one-third of the nation—a responsible government does things to assist those who are struggling. That's why $23 billion is being invested, against the wishes of those opposite who asked the questions today, to help Australians get through this tough time. That's what Labor governments do. We won't leave people hanging, lingering in financial suffering. That is why, even though those opposite didn't want it, there's electricity bill relief for five million Australians. Those opposite would have left them hanging.</para>
<para>There is cheaper child care. Ninety per cent of Australians who've got child care are getting improved support because of the Albanese Labor government. We increased rent assistance—the biggest rise in decades—because we know how hard it is. They opposed that. Medicare bulk-billing has come in three times—the largest rise in support for Medicare in 30 years. They opposed that.</para>
<para>This Labor government is absolutely committed to supporting Australians in the good times and in the tough times. We are investing this money in Australians to help our fellow Australians get through the difficult periods, boosting income support payments and making sure people can go to TAFE and get retrained fee-free so they can get a job and manage the challenges of this economy. We are building more affordable homes and expanding paid parental leave. These are things that the Labor will do to support people through the challenges that lie with us and ahead.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KOVACIC</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What a challenging day for Australian mortgage holders. When I stood here on 5 September and gave my first speech, I talked about how somebody under 40 years of age in Australia is less likely than at any time in our history to own their home. The RBA decision to raise rates again in the midst of this cost-of-living crisis, in the midst of this inflationary crisis, has further embedded that. What a sad state of affairs when young Australians are unable to aspire to own their own home.</para>
<para>I have listened with great interest to the different commentary and answers from the other side to the questions from Senator Scarr and Senator Hume. In particular, I noted a couple of references to the Treasurer, Jim Chalmers, about the pride in his work and what he's done. I want to read a note about the Treasurer. I just thought I would go back to a comment from Senator Farrell, which was that we are dealing with a whole bunch of issues coming at us internationally.</para>
<para>So, let's be clear. Prior to the election, when international headwinds were also impacting our economy, Jim Chalmers said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The former government had an excuse for everything and a plan for nothing. They want to talk about international comparisons. Australians couldn't give a stuff what inflation is in the United States.</para></quote>
<para>But here today we heard comparisons about international inflation and international interest rates whereas Jim Chalmers said, 'Australians couldn't give a stuff.' That's the standard that this Treasurer set but has not lived up to. He has no plan to bring down inflation in Australia and is leaving it to the RBA to do the heavy lifting in relation to inflation. Consistent with that, it means that Australian mortgage holders, the 33 per cent of Australians that have a mortgage, are the ones doing the heavy lifting to manage inflation in this country. Let's think about that. It is the one-third of people who have struggled to save and put money aside who are being burdened with the additional costs of managing inflation in this country because this government is unable to do so. Because Jim can't live up to the standard he set for himself, interest rates will be higher for longer, Australian families will continue to suffer and more young Australians will not be able to get into their own homes and that is a very sorry state of affairs.</para>
<para>One of the other things I wanted to talk about was the comment Senator Farrell made. He said, 'We have rejigged spending based on our commitments made to the Australian public before the last election.' I had a think about that and the two main commitments that I could think about were to reduce your electricity bill by $275 and to give you a cheaper mortgage. I can tell you right now, I don't know a single Australian who has saved a single dollar on their electricity bill. That is one thing that categorically has not occurred.</para>
<para>We now know that the average Australian family or household with a mortgage is paying $22,000 a year more. Senator Farrell made a comment that confused me. As some of you may know, I spent nearly two decades helping people buy their own homes, so I have a good understanding of what an average loan size is. Senator Farrell said 'an average loan size of $360,000'. I thought, 'That's pretty low.' We had a look at the ABS data and $360,000 is not an average home loan.</para>
<para>The average home loan in New South Wales, according to the ABS, is $764,000. In Victoria, it's $600,000. Nationally, it's $603,000. So that $360,000 figure is probably from somebody who got their loan 15 years ago and is halfway through paying it off, not someone who has to deal with the high cost of entering a home loan in the last one or two years and facing 12 interest rate rises.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade: Department of Defence</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Minister for Defence to a question without notice I asked today relating to weapons exports.</para></quote>
<para>Few people know that Australia has one of the most secretive and unaccountable weapons export systems in the world. Our government doesn't tell us who we're exporting weapons to, it doesn't tell us what the weapons are, and it doesn't tell us who profits here in Australia from the sale of weapons. Indeed, what we do know is that Australia has a sorry history of selling weapons to regimes that are engaged in some of the ugliest conflicts on the planet: selling weapons to both sides of the conflict in South Sudan, to both South Sudan and Sudan; selling weapons to Saudi Arabia, which is currently involved in the appalling conflict, riven with human rights abuses, in Yemen; and, of course, selling weapons after weapons after weapons to Israel.</para>
<para>Rather remarkably, Australia's secrecy on weapons sales contrasts poorly even with the United States. The US, amidst massive public pressure for their fuelling of war crimes, have sought to hide and were seeking to hide the weapons they were sending to Israel. That was considered, in the US context, a serious breach of basic transparency measures and rejected by the US Congress. But, in Australia, we would call that secrecy the norm. Indeed, let that sink in. We are more secretive and less accountable in the way that we export weapons than the US military-industrial complex. There are more secrets about Australia's exports than there about those of the US. If you really want to find out about Australia's weapons purchases, most often you'd find it out from disclosures in the US Congress. Australia should not be fuelling war crimes, and Australia should be transparent about the weapons it's sending to fuel conflict around the globe.</para>
<para>I want to read a quote from the Executive Director of the Australian Centre for International Justice, Rawan Arraf. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's role in exporting arms material to Israel must be exposed. If Australian-made weapons are being used against Palestinian civilians, our clients and the public deserve to know.</para></quote>
<para>We know that hundreds of permits have been issued in recent years, but the Australian government keeps the basic details secret. What items are being exported? Who is making them? What are they used for? These are very valid questions that Rawan asks, and they're questions the government should answer. More than 10,000 people have been killed in Gaza since Israel launched its military offensive nearly a month ago—hospitals, universities, schools, homes and ambulances all attacked. The Australian public has a right to know if any of that appalling conflict was fuelled by Australian weapons.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Personnel</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Minister for Defence to a question without notice I asked today relating to ADF pay cuts.</para></quote>
<para>During question time today, I asked the Minister representing the Minister for Defence why he is giving our diggers a pay cut for Christmas. Why are the minister and the Chief of the Defence Force behaving like a grinch? As we heard in the last round of estimates, the Australian Defence Force, over the last two years, has lost nearly 8,000 members of our forces, and it's pretty clear to me and most veterans out there why this is happening. It's because of pay and conditions. In response to our ADF bleeding its members, the minister has given our soldiers, aviators and sailors a pay rise below the rate of inflation, which, of course, is a pay cut. Add to this the fact that this government has given new recruits a cash bonus to stay for longer while there is no bonus offered for serving members to encourage them to stay. And now they will have to swallow a pay cut.</para>
<para>In May 2022, the now Prime Minister said 'a Labor government would ensure Defence has the resources it needs'. I'm assuming he wasn't talking about the billion-dollar submarines we won't get for 20 years—and that'll be on a good day—not to mention the fact that Defence is still refusing to release documents to the veterans royal commission. Seriously, who would want to go and work for an employer like that? On 25 October, a press release from the Minister for Defence's office said that the Albanese government was delivering on its promise to keep Australians safe. But I reckon they're stuffing it up, and today I was joined in this belief by retired army chief General Peter Leahy.</para>
<para>Leahy told the ABC today that the government's decisions 'are ripping the heart out of defence'. He went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's military is now less capable and ready for potential threats than when Labor first came to office.</para></quote>
<para>How about that? We've got problems with national security. There is no time to fix this. The Chief of Defence Force can give our diggers the pay rise they deserve, and if he doesn't then he should resign along with your Minister for Defence because I can tell you he is going down. They are calling him the worst minister they have seen in a very, very long time representing them in defence, and you know who he is. Get rid of both of them!</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PETITIONS</title>
        <page.no>36</page.no>
        <type>PETITIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Banking and Financial Services</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>36</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>37</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that a question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>37</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the provisions of paragraphs (5) to (8) of standing order 111 not apply to the Federal Courts Legislation Amendment (Judicial Immunity) Bill 2023, allowing it to be considered during this period of sittings.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Since August, judicial immunity in division 2 of the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia has been called into question by a court ruling which found that judges can be personally liable for the way they conduct a case. This has had immediate negative consequences, particularly for Australian families going through the family law courts. The coalition has repeatedly called for the Attorney-General to restore the immunity of division 2 judges so that they can decide cases without fear, favour or the threat of personal liability. We welcome the government's decision to come to the table on this issue.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>37</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Federal Courts Legislation Amendment (Judicial Immunity) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1402" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Federal Courts Legislation Amendment (Judicial Immunity) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>37</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the law relating to federal courts, and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Federal Courts Legislation Amendment (Judicial Immunity) Bill 2023</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read first time.</para></quote>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>37</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table the explanatory memorandum relating to the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill would confirm that the same form of judicial immunity that applies to judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 1) also applies to judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 2).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Background </inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (FCFCOA) (Division 2) is Australia's largest federal court. It has jurisdiction to hear a broad range of family law, migration and general federal matters. It is the single point of entry for all federal family law disputes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 2) is also the only inferior court at federal level. The Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 1), and each of the other federal courts, are superior courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The expression "inferior court", it is important to note, is not a pejorative. It is a legal term of art. The common law has long recognised distinctions between the jurisdiction and powers of superior courts and inferior courts. In the recent decision of <inline font-style="italic">Stradford (a pseudonym) v Judge Vasta</inline>, a justice of the Federal Court of Australia drew on centuries of common law to conclude that judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court (Division 2) have more narrow protection under the doctrine of judicial immunity than do their counterparts in superior courts, including the Federal Circuit and Family Court (Division 1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Judicial immunity protects judges from personal liability for actions done as part of their judicial functions. This ensures judicial independence and, in turn, supports each person coming before the court receiving an impartial and fair decision. Judges must be able to decide matters before them in accordance with their assessment of the facts and their understanding of the law, without the threat of being personally sued.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Following the decision of the Federal Court, there is uncertainty as to the scope of judicial immunity that applies to judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court (Division 2). The common law concerning what judicial immunity is enjoyed by inferior court judges is highly complex, spanning centuries of case law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This uncertainty is undesirable, and it arises because the Parliament has not previously clarified the scope of immunity that applies to Federal Circuit and Family Court (Division 2) judges.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill would resolve that uncertainty.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is important to note that this Bill does not condone misbehaviour or inappropriate conduct by any judge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Judges can be held accountable in a number of ways.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Most obviously and most commonly, judicial errors can be corrected through appeal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Complaints about judges can be made to the chief judicial officer of the relevant court.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In extraordinary cases, under section 72 of the Constitution, a judge can be removed by the Governor-General in Council, on an address from both Houses of the Parliament in the same session, praying for such removal on the ground of proved misbehaviour or incapacity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Parliamentary Commission under the <inline font-style="italic">Judicial Misbehaviour and Incapacity (Parliamentary Commissions) Act 2012</inline> can be established to investigate a specified allegation of misbehaviour or incapacity in relation to a judge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Effect of legislative amendments</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The approach in the Bill is simple. It would extend the more settled and broader common law immunity that applies to a judge of a federal superior court to judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 2). This achieves the aim of providing clarity, without unduly attempting to codify the scope of judicial immunity for federal judges. It will also allow for the doctrine to be refined over time by future decisions of the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The consequential amendments in the Bill will also ensure there is no confusion about the immunity afforded to arbitrators, mediators, registrars and the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia Chief Executive Officer after the change to Division 2 judges' immunity. There is no change to the existing policy that certain officers undertaking particular quasi-judicial functions receive the same immunity as would a judicial officer exercising the same function.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill would operate prospectively, meaning it would not affect any matters currently before the Courts or any causes of action that may have already accrued.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Conclusion</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Judicial immunity plays an important role in upholding the integrity and independence of the judiciary. By providing judges of the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia (Division 2) with legislative clarity about what protections are available to them when they exercise their judicial functions, this Bill will uphold the independence of the judiciary, encourage the finality of legal proceedings and support the timely and effective administration of justice.</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>38</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Environmental Laws and Standards</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>38</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, by no later than midday on Monday, 13 November 2023, a copy of the main briefing document pack (possibly titled 'Consultation on National Environmental Laws Canberra, 30-31 October 2023') that was seen by stakeholders at the consultation sessions on national environmental laws and standards on 30 and 31 October 2023 in Canberra.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Independent Review of the National Disability Insurance Scheme</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>39</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Steele-John, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme, by no later than midday on Friday, 10 November 2023, the final report of the independent review of the National Disability Insurance Scheme.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "Friday, 10 November 2023", substitute "the first sitting day in 2024".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Chisholm to general business notice of motion No. 369, standing in the name of Senator Steele-John, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:45]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>21</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government cannot agree to the date set out in this motion. As we have said previously, we intend to publicly release the NDIS review report following the next meeting of the National Cabinet. The date for that meeting has not yet been set. However, we undertake to table the report in the Senate for the information of all senators after the meeting has taken place. If necessary, this will be done out of session before the first sitting day of 2024, as was set out in our amendment.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 369, standing in the name of Senator Steele-John and moved by Senator McKim, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:53]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>41</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>20</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economics Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Hume, I seek leave to amend general business notice of motion No. 370, relating to attendance by a minister.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the motion as amended:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. Notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">a. The Senate Economics Legislation Committee resolved that questions taken on notice during Budget Estimates in May 2023 be provided to the Committee by 14 July 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">b. There were 12 responses to questions on notice from Budget Estimates in May 2023 tabled the day before or the day of the commencement of Treasury portfolio Additional Budget Estimates on 25 October 2023;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">c. There were a further four responses to questions taken on notice that had not been provided to the Committee at the commencement of Treasury portfolio additional Budget Estimates; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">d. Evidence provided to the Senate Economics Legislation Committee during Additional Budget Estimates shows that responses to all these questions were provided to the approving Minister's office by no later than 17 July 2023, and the majority by 29 June 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. Requires the Minister representing the Treasurer to attend the Chamber at following the conclusion of motions to take note of answers on Wednesday, 8 November 2023, to provide an explanation, of no more than 10 minutes, of the failure to comply with the resolution of the Senate Economics Legislation Committee;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3. Any senator may move to take note of the explanation required by paragraph 2; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4. Any motion under paragraph 3 may be debated for no longer than 30 minutes, shall have precedence over all business until resolved, and senators may speak to the motion for not more than 10 minutes each.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government does not support this motion from Senator Hume. There is an existing right under standing order 74(5) for Senator Hume to seek an explanation for unanswered questions on notice. This has been available to her on any sitting day since the deadline set by the committee for the return of answers passed. The Senate should avoid going around its own standing orders in the way proposed by Senator Hume.</para>
<para>Senate estimates questions on notice have increased to more than 19,000 in the first year of the Albanese government. We have answered all questions from the October 2022 budget estimates and the February 2023 supplementary budget estimates. In regard to the May 2023 budget estimates hearings, our government has now answered over 8½ thousand of the 8,600 questions—2,500 of which were asked by Senator Hume. Compare that to the Morrison government which, for the equivalent budget estimates in May 2021, answered only 67 per cent of questions by the due date.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that Senator Hume's general business notice of motion No. 370, as amended and moved by Senator Askew, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:01] <br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>42</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>21</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>42</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>42</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>42</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move general business notices of motion Nos 371, 372 and 373 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">GENERAL BUSINESS NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 371</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on Monday,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 November 2023, a copy of the final report for the:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) national competitive grants program process review;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) assessment of the impact of ARC funded research; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) financial sustainability review of the ARC.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">GENERAL BUSINESS NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 372</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on Monday,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 November 2023, a copy of the final report on the Review to Inform a Better and Fairer Education System, provided to the Minister for Education.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">GENERAL BUSINESS NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 373</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on Monday,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27 November 2023, copies of all advice, briefings, submissions and reports provided by the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency to the Minister for Education since 1 July 2022 related to cost recovery arrangements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Notice of motion altered on 6 November 2023 pursuant to standing order 77.</inline></para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is there any objection to these three motions being moved together?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens have no objection to these motions being moved together, but we do ask that the question on No. 371 be put separately, and then we're happy for the question on Nos 372 and 373 to be put together.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will not be supporting these motions. They seek a variety of documents, one which is already public, others which are subject to ongoing government work and others which have been answered in senate estimates.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 371, standing in the name of Senator Henderson, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:06]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>42</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>21</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm now going to move to general business notices of motion Nos 372 and 373.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With regard to motion 372, the Greens wish to put on the record that we're very interested in reading this review and ensuring its publication in a timely manner; however, at this point we are willing to give the government more time.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notices of motion No. 372 and No. 373, standing in the name of Senator Henderson be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:13] <br />(The President—Senator Lines) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>44</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) at the estimates hearing of the Education and Employment Legislation Committee on 2 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the Assistant Minister representing the Minister for Education was asked to provide any correspondence, directions, notes or other details, including communications with the Department of Education concerning the minister's review of the Higher Education Loan Program (HELP) Australian Taxation Office (ATO) payments system (question no. SQ23-000817),</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Secretary of the department was asked to provide all communications, emails between the Minister for Education's office, the department and any other relevant stakeholder, including the ATO, concerning the work that is being undertaken to review the HELP ATO payments system (question no. SQ23-000383); (collectively, the documents); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) neither the Minister for Education or the department have provided the documents in answers to questions on notice; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 4 pm on Friday, 10 November 2023, all correspondence, directions, notes, briefs and other communications received by or sent to the Minister for Education or the department concerning the Minister for Education's review of the HELP</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will not support this motion. The senator asked this question in the budget estimates process, and it was skilfully answered during that process.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I ask that the votes of the government be recorded as being against the motion.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF URGENCY</title>
        <page.no>44</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF URGENCY</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Israel</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the Senate that the President has received the following letter, dated 7 November 2023, from Senator McKim:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today the Australian Greens propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"To support peace for Palestinians and Israelis, and due to the approximately 10,000 Palestinian deaths and over 1400 Israeli deaths, the Australian Government call for an immediate ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and for an urgent end to the siege on Gaza."</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"To support peace for Palestinians and Israelis, and due to the approximately 10,000 Palestinian deaths and over 1400 Israeli deaths, the Australian Government call for an immediate ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza, for the unconditional release of all hostages and for an urgent end to the siege on Gaza.</para></quote>
<para>I want to use my time in the Senate today to share some stories from life in Gaza today. Firstly is a story from Fidaa, a mum in Gaza:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Today is my daughter's 12th birthday, and to be honest I was glad that she felt excited, she had been counting down to it since the beginning of this month.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But last night she was like, "you know what I wish for my birthday? I just wish that it won't be my death day. I wish I won't be targeted by a rocket and the people won't have to say 'wow, she was killed the same day that she was born.'"</para></quote>
<para>Then this from Hoor, again, a 15-year-old living in Gaza right now—a 15-year-old girl who has survived four wars: 'I'm not sure that I will do the same during this fifth terrible war. It is completely different; death accompanies people in Gaza every single second. I'm not sure that I can finish my statement before an Israeli rocket splits me into pieces.' Both of these stories come directly to us from Oxfam in Gaza.</para>
<para>And Save the Children provided the story of a worker, whose name has been removed from this speech just to safeguard their identity.</para>
<para>They are a father of four, currently sheltering in a facility with 20,000 others. He talks, in his communication with us, about what it means to be a displaced person in Gaza, what it means to be one of the hundreds of thousands of people forcibly displaced by the Israeli carpet bombing and ground invasion.</para>
<para>He says: 'Displacement means that there is no mattress or pillow. Your mattress is the floor or your car and a your cover is a sheet that has been found in a warehouse where it has sat for years. Displacement means there is no clean water to drink. You may have to, if you find it, drink contaminated water full of diseases. Displacement means that there is no cooked food—no food at all, except a few boxes of cheese which smell rank from the heat. Displacement means that there is a loaf of bread to split into two or possibly into four. Whatever it is, it is never enough. The important thing that you count is that you have managed to eat. This is considered a great achievement.</para>
<para>Displacement means that you look up to the sky 30 times every minute, imagining a new massacre will happen to you and the latest breaking news will be about you and your family. Displacement means you will always hear bombing around you. You will see it, but you will never know where it is coming from. Displacement means that there is no electricity, except by chance or luck. There is no mobile phone battery, there are no phone calls or messages, there is no internet and there is no communication with the world. You may die, and no-one in your family will know that you have died. Displacement means oppression, anxiety, tension, hunger, sweat, distress, disillusion, sadness, darkness, anticipation, fear for the children, fear for the family, fear for the friends and fear for the future.'</para>
<para>It is from stories like this, human stories representing the millions attempting to survive right now in Gaza, that the Australian community draws its courage to confront its government which daily fails to call for an end to this slaughter, to the carpet bombing, to the siege and to the collective punishment of 2.2 million people. Shame on the government for not rising and drawing that same courage to join with them. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today, 7 November, marks precisely one month since the 7 October attacks by Hamas, one month since the horrors of Hamas's attacks upon innocents—innocent lives lost on that deadly day and, of course, tragic innocent lives lost in the time since. There should be no forgetting the horrors that occurred on 7 October: the targeting, deliberately, of civilians by Hamas—babies, children and the elderly—and the barbaric nature of those attacks, with the beheadings, rapes and torture that was undertaken. We should, today, one month on, mourn all of the innocent lives lost—those taken by Hamas through those attacks of 7 October and those lives that have been lost in the subsequent war, a war where Hamas has acted in the most cowardly of ways, hiding behind civilians and civilian infrastructure and therefore ensuring the greater loss of innocent lives.</para>
<para>Hamas rocket launchers have been found in mosques, in scout halls and next to kindergartens or schools or UN offices.</para>
<para>This is the brutality and the barbarity that the world confronts: an organisation not just intent on attacking and taking the lives of those whose existence they oppose—Israeli people and Jews—but happy to put the people they pretend to represent in harm's way—namely, Palestinian residents within Gaza.</para>
<para>We should remember those still held hostage, 240 innocent people who have been living a hellish existence and whose families continue to be put through hell. Of course, we should remember all impacted by the dislocation of peoples, especially within Gaza, the humanitarian situation and the challenges that that presents for so many and the loss of life that creates, along with those dislocated in other parts of Israel. As in all wars, the loss of innocent lives is a tragedy, be they Palestinian lives, Israeli lives or any other lives. Everyone would wish to live in a world without war, but, sadly, we have to live in the real world—one where you have to deal with its horrors, not simply wish them away. Hamas is one of those horrors that Israel must deal with and that the world must deal with.</para>
<para>This motion from the Greens does two things of note. It calls for a ceasefire, but it totally ignores Hamas. It is reckless, misleading and one-sided. What would the best way to a ceasefire be? It would be for Hamas to surrender its arms, its infrastructure, its military capabilities and its terrorist capabilities; for Hamas leaders and terrorists to surrender and face the justice they should face; and for Hamas to release the 240 hostages it still holds. These would be the best ways to a ceasefire, not simply a call for some type of ceasefire that would enable Hamas to rearm, regroup and reorganise and, in doing so, perpetuate the likelihood of more terrorist attacks or more brutal attacks like those we saw on 7 October.</para>
<para>None of this is easy, and it requires strong, thoughtful and considered approaches. Ideally, it requires the type of bipartisanship that this chamber exercised following 7 October and that I want to see us continue to exercise: strength in our condemnation of Hamas, strength in our desire to see Palestinians and Israelis given the opportunity to live in peace. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is impossible to absorb the harrowing images from the ongoing conflict in Israel and Gaza with anything less than distress and horror. The widespread human suffering we are witnessing means that a just and enduring peace in the region could not be more pressing. The government has said repeatedly that the future of both Israelis and Palestinians depends on this just and enduring peace being realised.</para>
<para>It is clear that the status quo is failing everyone. Some 1,400 Israelis were killed by Hamas on 7 October, the biggest loss of Jewish life on any day since the Holocaust. We condemn these terrorist attacks unequivocally. They cannot and should not be justified. With more than 200 people still held captive, we call for Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release all hostages. In Israel's response to those attacks, thousands of Palestinians have been killed, including more than 3,500 children, as reported by UNICEF. In affirming Israel's right to defend itself, Israel's friends, including Australia, have consistently emphasised that the way it does so matters. We continue to call for international law to be observed and for the protection of civilian lives.</para>
<para>The humanitarian crisis in Gaza worsens by the day. On 26 October, Foreign Minister Wong announced that Australia would provide an additional $15 million in humanitarian assistance for civilians affected by the conflict in Gaza, in the West Bank and across the region.</para>
<para>This funding is in addition to the $10 million already committed by the Australian government and brings our total package of assistance to $25 million since 7 October.</para>
<para>There are serious constraints preventing this and other aid getting to the people who need it. While there has been some access, much more assistance is required from parties to the conflict if this aid is to reach Gazans. This is why so many countries, like Australia, have been calling for humanitarian pauses on hostilities as a necessary first step. The government has heard the calls for a ceasefire. The tragic reality is it can take a long time to reach a ceasefire between parties to a conflict. The people of Gaza can't wait for that.</para>
<para>It's clear that the Australian communities are experiencing deep distress and pain, felt most acutely in our Jewish and Palestinian communities. It is essential that we do not let the very real pain caused by this conflict drive Australians apart. With this in mind, the government has developed a social cohesion package to support Australian communities affected by the ongoing conflict. This includes a $25 million grant to the Executive Council of Australian Jewry to immediately improve safety at Jewish schools and preschools across Australia, and $25 million to Australian Palestinian, Muslim and other communities to support a range of safety, security, mental health, cohesion and education objectives.</para>
<para>It's the role of every senator and every member in this place to remember they also have a responsibility when engaging in this debate. We all have a responsibility to engage responsibly, respectfully and constructively. Engaging in inflammatory rhetoric not only is extremely harmful to many Australians but also undermines some of our greatest strengths: our diversity, our tolerance and our values. And it does nothing to advance the cause of peace, a cause which is the responsibility of everyone in this place.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today, one month on from the Hamas terrorist attack, we mourn the 1,400 civilians killed. We repeat our call for the immediate release of the 240 civilians taken hostage. We grieve for the 10,000 civilians reported killed in the intervening period. Forty per cent of those who have died in Israel's bombardment of Gaza are children—over 4,000 innocent young lives lost. This cannot go on. Behind each of these numbers are people—people with families, lives, dreams and aspirations; people who matter; people who all have equal worth. Together, all Australians must call for a ceasefire and an enduring end to the cycle of violence paid for in civilian lives.</para>
<para>And we must remember that how we talk about this matters. How we talk about this has real implications for people in our communities. Israelis are not Benjamin Netanyahu. Palestinians are not Hamas. We must call out antisemitism. We must call out Islamophobia. Every person in our communities around Australia must at all times feel safe. Hate speech cannot be tolerated. Nobody has the right to play politics with this unprecedented human suffering. I stand here to plead with all of you in this place and all around Australia: please come together to call for a ceasefire now.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to call on the Senate to support peace for Palestinians and Israelis, and, with approximately 10,000 Palestinian deaths and over 1,400 Israeli deaths, we ask the Australian government to call for an immediate ceasefire to end the humanitarian catastrophe occurring in Gaza; for the unconditional release of all hostages; and for an urgent end to the siege on Gaza.</para>
<para>The invasion of Gaza is a humanitarian disaster and catastrophe. The Greens condemn the war crimes of Hamas and the invasion of Gaza. More than 10,000 Palestinians have died, and lasting peace is now further out of reach. We grieve with those who have lost loved ones, and we must all work now to stop further bloodshed.</para>
<para>Instead of backing the invasion, Australia should be part of an international push for peace and de-escalation, which means an immediate ceasefire, an end to the invasion of Gaza and holding to account those who have committed war crimes.</para>
<para>People around Australia and around the world are taking to the streets to call for an end to the invasion and occupation. They gather united by a single call: 'Ceasefire now.' They remind their governments that children should never be killed in war and that cutting access to food, water and medicine are war crimes. I ask the Albanese government: why can't you join these calls for a ceasefire? How many children must die or be wounded, how many refugee camps or ambulance convoys bombed, how many apartment blocks reduced to rubble before you can say the word 'ceasefire'? Every moment we delay calling for a ceasefire costs lives. Nothing can justify the violence that we've seen. The Greens will continue to call for a ceasefire now and for a lasting and just peace.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hamas propagandists will have been cheering the footage of yesterday's cheap walkout stunt by the Greens. They are laughing at just how gullible the Greens are, doing the bidding of terrorists who cut the heads off babies and rape and kidnap people. The only sustainable path to peace in this case is the destruction of Hamas. Only then can Israel possibly consider a ceasefire. If the Israelis ceased fire before then, Hamas would survive to commit more atrocities, because these maniacs will not rest until every Jew in the world is dead, and that is simply not acceptable. The world will not be safe until these terrorist maniacs are dead. I tell people a vote for the Greens is a vote for terrorism. We need to stand up and say, 'No more of this,' because the world has seen these terrorist people on our streets supporting Palestine and Hamas. They are a destructive force and they must be stopped.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The invasion of Gaza is a humanitarian catastrophe. The UN has warned that the Palestinian people are at grave risk of genocide. The Greens condemn the war crimes of Hamas, but nothing can justify the war crimes we are witnessing in Gaza. Ten thousand Palestinians, including 4,000 children, have been brutally killed just for being Palestinian. The international community, including Australia, must take action to help end this crisis. Instead of supplying military equipment to Israel, Australia should be calling for peace and de-escalation, calling for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza and for ending the occupation of Palestine. Supporting the UN call for a ceasefire is the bare minimum that the Australian government should be doing, and yet they refuse to do so. History will be on the side of those who condemn the indiscriminate killing of civilians and condemn the occupation. We must not let our government get away with supporting these atrocities.</para>
<para>The situation is so dire and causing so much despair that it's no wonder that many people are feeling powerless and turning away, but I'm pleading with all of you who are watching and listening to this. Together, we are powerful. Please email and call the Prime Minister and the Foreign Minister, and call your local MP. Their staff will answer, and it's their job to listen to you. There's nothing to be afraid of. Our voices are powerful, and we can't let them ignore us. Don't underestimate the power of these actions. I have received thousands and thousands of your e-mails. They are impossible to ignore, and they demonstrate the power of collective action. By calling, you are holding your elected representatives to account, making sure that they know you care and you are watching. Together, we can influence positive change and ensure our concerns are heard and acted upon.</para>
<para>And don't stop there. Attend rallies and other organised actions. Consider joining those who are disrupting business as usual, because there can be no business as usual while this is happening. The only way that Labor will move on this is if they feel the political pressure, because what they want is to win elections and retain their power. If they think that's at risk, they will be swayed. You have the ability to influence political decisions. We need to continue to stand together and raise our voices in support of an immediate ceasefire, an end to the invasion of Gaza and a free Palestine.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's time for a ceasefire in Gaza. Over 10,000 people have died in a human catastrophe, with the largest price paid for by the innocent: civilian men, women and children. One thousand four hundred innocent Israelis died on 7 October, and close to 10,000 Palestinians have died in the months since. We all count, or nobody counts. As we hold our children and families close, every Australian must share the grief of this catastrophic loss of life and injury. Gaza is becoming a graveyard for children. According to the UN, more journalists have been killed over the past four weeks than in any conflict over the past three decades. Eighty-one United Nations workers have been killed, more than in any comparable period in the history of the UN.</para>
<para>I have heard the stories of doctors and nurses in Gaza operating on the wounded without anaesthetic, heard the stories of bombed ambulances and bombed refugee camps, and I know that we must do all we can to stop this war. So many South Australians have contacted me, sharing their horror at what they are seeing in their homes every night, and they've asked me and the Greens to stand up for a ceasefire. To quote just one, Jessie Edwards wrote to me a few days ago speaking of her 'deep distress' about the lack of humanitarian support from our government to the people of Gaza. She said the bombing and the collective punishment of civilian Palestinians shocked her conscience. She wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This is a moment in history in which we will all feel shame for not doing as much as we can to prevent avoidable suffering. I urge you to agitate forcefully for a ceasefire and peace.</para></quote>
<para>The need for a ceasefire is internationally recognised. We've have seen 120 nations at the UN vote in favour of a ceasefire. Australia abstained—well, shame on us. I am ashamed that our government did not join these countries and their call, did not listen to have thousands of Australians who are horrified and calling for peace, for the release of all hostages and political prisoners and access for humanitarian aid into Gaza. When we look back at the atrocities of history, we often wonder what we would have done. Well, we will be judged by history. We will be asked what we did to stop this horrific war, where the casualties amongst 2.4 million Palestinians and especially their children are rising so rapidly with over 4,000 children dead. It is unbearable. Right now we see our communities, so many Australians, joining millions around the world marching for peace. I joined with them, and we join with them calling for a ceasefire immediately in Gaza and an end to the illegal war crimes being perpetrated on the innocent. We need a lasting and just peace for both Israelis and Palestinians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Cutting off medicine, food, water and fuel to the people of Gaza is not self-defence. Deliberately carpet bombing hospitals and schools and ambulances is not self-defence. In a joint statement five days ago, seven UN special rapporteurs observed:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We are sounding the alarm: There is an ongoing campaign by Israel resulting in crimes against humanity in Gaza. Considering statements made by Israeli political leaders and their allies, accompanied by military action in Gaza and escalation of arrests and killing in the West Bank, there is also a risk of genocide against the Palestinian People.</para></quote>
<para>Today, Antonio Guterres confirmed that more UN aid workers have been killed at the fastest rate in history, with 89 being killed in four weeks. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The need for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza is getting more urgent with every passing hour. The parties to the conflict and the international community face an immediate and fundamental responsibility: Stop this inhuman collective suffering and dramatically expand humanitarian aid.</para></quote>
<para>The Labor government must show some courage and condemn the State of Israel for the ongoing invasion of Gaza and call for an immediate ceasefire. Free Palestine.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Palestinian and Arab communities across Australia are in mourning. The killing in Palestine has reached its cold hand deep into the diaspora here, with so many losing loved ones, friends and colleagues. There's so much hurt right now not even being acknowledged by this place. Imagine how hard it would be to concentrate on catching the train to work or picking up your kids on time when someone you loved has been buried in rubble and your government refuses to call for that violence to end. Imagine the sense of abandonment.</para>
<para>In the face of a government that is complicit in the violence, Australians are showing up in their thousands and in their millions, calling for peace and seeing a common humanity in the inexcusable tragedy of every Israeli child and every Palestinian child killed in this conflict. They're not just marching; they're sending thousands of emails to your offices and they're calling your offices every day. As I speak now, a group of Australian Jewish women is gathered in front of the Israeli embassy in Canberra to add their voices for a just peace, the freeing of the hostages and an immediate ceasefire. That's solidarity, courage and principle.</para>
<para>Australians are doing everything in their power to make the Albanese government and the other war parties in this place listen with an open heart and then act in the name of peace. Hear them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator McKim be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:50] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Dean Smith)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>13</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>39</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</title>
        <page.no>49</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>49</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A letter has been received from Senator Hume:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose that the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose that the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With core inflation higher in Australia than United States Germany, France, Italy, Japan, and Canada, and the RBA forecasting inflation will remain above the band for almost a year longer than they had in December, and months longer than what they predicted immediately prior to Labor's Budget in May, Labor has no plan to bring down inflation and reduce the cost of living for all Australians.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Who said this, 'My New Year's resolution is just to continue to deal with cost-of-living pressures.'? That was what the Prime Minister told Australians back in January. Since then, we have had five interest rate rises from the RBA and a total of 12 since this government was elected. The reason behind these interest rate hikes is because Labor has no plan to tackle inflation. Inflation remains far too high, far too sticky and it is not coming off.</para>
<para>The latest data from the September quarter reveals that inflation is stubbornly high, standing at 5.4 per cent for year on year—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Your economic mess!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, please don't show your economic ignorance in here. The Treasurer will tell you that this is all to do with international factors.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Polley</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley, to be fair, Senator Farrell was encouraging Senator Hume, so there's no point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's no point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Acting Deputy President, please tell Senator Farrell not to demonstrate his economic ignorance in this chamber. The latest data for the September quarter reveals that inflation is stubbornly high, and the Treasurer will tell you that this is because of international factors. He'll tell you that it's everybody's fault other than his own. He even said recently, 'We've got a very unpredictable, volatile global economy,' and he spoke of what they had been able to do in the year since that first budget. Yet in April last year, he said: 'This government has an excuse for everything and a plan for nothing. They want to talk about international comparisons'—wait for this!—'but Australians couldn't give a stuff what inflation is in the United States.' That's the standard that the Treasurer has set for himself, and it's a standard that he is clearly failing. Core inflation—the key measure of underlying price pressures—is now at 5.2 per cent. That's higher than in Germany. It is higher than in the United States. It is higher than in France, Italy, Japan and Canada. That data simply confirms what every Australian family is feeling: the cost of everything is going up.</para>
<para>This decision by the RBA today to increase rates by 25 basis points has taken the cash rate to its highest level since 2011. That's a heavy blow to Australian families, especially those who were already facing financial difficulties. Because of the inaction of this government and its failure to tackle inflation head-on, a family with a $750,000 mortgage is now paying nearly $24,000 a year more than they were a year ago. Every time interest rates go up, we see an unfortunate increase in the number of Australians who turn to hardship payments for their energy bills or seek assistance from charities, particularly those that help put food on the table. This isn't just a statistic; it's a reflection of the real impact on people's lives. It's a consequence of a government that, for the past year and a half, has had the wrong priorities. It lacks a clear plan to tackle inflation. It lacks a plan to reduce the cost of living for ordinary Australians by tackling the causes, not the symptoms. The government has focused on everything except a plan to tackle inflation and get it under control. While the RBA has had to do all it can to try and cool the economy, Labor has added $188 billion of new spending, further fuelling inflation. It has added a tax on truckies and a tax on farmers, both of which add to the costs that Australians are paying at the supermarket. The RBA has its foot on the brake, but Labor is pumping the accelerator.</para>
<para>Today the RBA confirmed that the result of the government's irresponsible failure to come up with a plan for inflation is higher interest rates. The governor said, 'The risk of inflation remaining higher for longer has increased'—not decreased but increased—'and it's the everyday Australians that are shouldering the financial burden.' Under Labor in the last 15 months, the cost of food has gone up by 8.2 per cent. The cost of housing has gone up by 10.4 per cent. The cost of electricity—which they promised they would reduce—has gone up by 18.2 per cent. The cost of gas has gone up by 28 per cent. Australia's inflation is now higher than that of most advanced economies. This is Labor's cost-of-living crisis. Rising interest rates caused by Labor's failure to deliver a plan to fight inflation is having a cascading effect across the economy, on businesses—particularly small businesses that struggle to access affordable credit to grow and employ more people—and on Australian families, who are suffering the consequences of Labor's inaction. It is crucial that Labor realign their priorities and policies and come up with a plan to tackle inflation, or it's going to be ordinary Australian families that continue to pay the price.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again we hear, on a second occasion in one day, the people who gave us a trillion dollars in debt—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Polley</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How much?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A trillion dollars in debt, Senator Polley. They are saying that these are the answers—sorry, they're not saying what the answers to the cost-of-living crisis are, because there are cost-of-living problems. There are challenges for everyone's hip pocket, and we as a country, as a government, as a Senate and as a parliament have to make sure that we take those pressures off. We have to strive to make sure that this is done in a sensible and economically sound way but also in a way that makes a real difference for hardworking Australians—for all Australians out there who are striving in these difficult times.</para>
<para>So what have we done? We've invested $23 billion to deal with cost-of-living pressures. There is an incredibly important 10-point plan that we've implemented—a plan that's gone through everything from investing in energy bill relief to cheaper medicines, cheaper child care, increased rent assistance and building more affordable homes. These are critical steps in making sure that we take the burden off our broad community. Another is fee-free TAFE.</para>
<para>Of course, on every one of those things that we've been doing and many others on those cost-of-living pressures—from the first and second ones right through to the 10th—those opposite have opposed it. They've said to the Australian public and the Australian people: 'We're going to abandon you. We are not going to support you through these cost-of-living challenges that we have right across the community right now.' Of course, when it comes to policies to make sure that we help the most needy but also bring people together to get productivity up—such as fee-free TAFE, child care and early childhood education—they opposed them.</para>
<para>When you start talking about some of the instruments to make sure that there is more effective bargaining so that wages can rise, what do they do? The Liberal and National parties are for low wages. They aren't for better business, they aren't for better rights, they aren't for better wages and they certainly aren't for better productivity, because they're opposed to fee-free TAFE, which unleashes the opportunity to have more apprentices and tradespeople out there in the community. What they've done is to oppose every arrangement to make sure that people have an opportunity to deal with the cost-of-living pressures, whether it's the 10 point plan, on which they opposed every issue, or important initiatives on the employment front.</para>
<para>As for the secure jobs, better pay act that the government passed at the end of last year, they opposed it. What did they oppose? They opposed the fact that employers can get together with their workforce across industries to have commonality and come up with arrangements based on productivity, efficiency and better wages. They opposed that, because heaven forbid! Would you want to see workers, companies and industries come together and try to work out solutions? What a horrific idea! Of course you do, because any sane, good employer wants that.</para>
<para>What the opposition are about is going to the lowest ebb every time. They want to go to the bad employers, the ones that are striving to bring unregulated gig work into arrangements where people don't have minimum rights. They want to make sure the big end of town are looked after, such as the mining industry. As for same job, same pay, they want to oppose that. They want to make sure that companies like Qantas can continue to create the Joyce effect that's starting to roll across the economy. They're supporting Alan Joyce, Richard Goyder and their like and then turning around and saying that the policies that have been implemented so that the workforce can deal with the cost-of-living pressures are something that they're not prepared to do.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hughes?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Acting Deputy President, with less than a minute to go, is there any stage at all, do we think—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What's the point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Direct relevance: might Senator Sheldon actually address the issue of inflation?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's no point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course, they don't want to hear the reality of what they're not doing about cost of living, because it's a painful point. It's a painful point when they opposed bill after bill after bill. They opposed worker right after worker right after worker right. They opposed every suggestion from good employers about how to get the economy working together. They oppose it because they always go for the big end of town to make sure that, as far as they're concerned, they're looked after instead of the rest of the community and good employers who want to work together to make this country more productive, more efficient and fairer, with better business, better wages and better rights. Those are things they just can't stand.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Neoliberalism is built on conning people and basically lying to people about what's possible, what's not possible, what has to happen and what can't happen. One of the great lies of neoliberalism is that the Reserve Bank of Australia is an independent body. We hear it from the media, the opposition, the commentariat and the government—and, boy, did we hear it on high repeat from Treasurer Jim Chalmers today at his press conference. It's funny how we hear it more and more from the agents of neoliberalism, like Mr Chalmers, on days when the RBA jacks up interest rates, as it did today.</para>
<para>A simple perusal of the Reserve Bank Act—in particular section 11 of that act—makes it clear that the government has the power to override the Reserve Bank when it puts up interest rates. The problem that we've got is not that the power to override the RBA doesn't exist but that the agents of neoliberalism, including Mr Chalmers today, are too gutless to use it. Not only is Mr Chalmers too gutless to use that power; he wants to give it away. And the Liberals and Nationals are going to support him to give that power away. Colleagues, in a democracy the buck should stop with elected representatives, not unelected technocrats like the board of the RBA—the high priests of neoliberalism in this country. Today's interest rate rises are Labor's interest rate rises because Mr Chalmers has the power to override the RBA but he's too gutless to use it.</para>
<para>Today's RBA decision is a terrible decision that will cause massive hardship to renters and mortgage holders across the country, and push millions of Australians further into poverty and economic hardship. It is beyond belief that the RBA would raise rates even though, as they said in their statement today, they acknowledge that inflation has peaked and is coming down. It also beggars belief that Treasurer Jim Chalmers would sit on his hands and allow that to happen.</para>
<para>Average Australians did not cause this inflation crisis and they shouldn't be punished to solve it. Inflation figures are being driven by things that are out of the control of the RBA and the Australian government, like petrol prices internationally, as well as things that are within the control of the Australian government, like corporate price gouging. Labor has got to step in.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I commend Senator Hume for bringing this matter before the Senate right now because it is a very important issue. There is no bigger or more important issue than what Australians are facing right now, which is the rising cost of living.</para>
<para>I would, however, point out that, while the government have no plan to bring down inflation, they are doing something even more reckless than that. Their policies are actually driving higher inflation. We don't need any more reminders that we are facing rampant inflation caused by the government's decisions than we've seen today, with the RBA's decision to increase interest rates by another 0.25 per cent. The government are very fond of blaming everyone else but themselves for high inflation. They should look in the mirror and see that they are, in fact, the ones who are responsible.</para>
<para>The impact of inflation is not just arbitrary. Its effect is uneven and it's being felt by everyone across the economy, from families to businesses. Even worse, inflation's pernicious impacts are felt daily because families never feel that they're able to get ahead with their household budget. And, boy, are families feeling that right now. This further increase to mortgages today is impacting Australians terribly, and we are seeing that impact.</para>
<para>Any MP or senator who spends time in their community will know exactly what I'm talking about. Any wage increase that people gain evaporates instantly at the fuel pump or the supermarket checkout. Cost of living is the biggest issue that this country is facing, yet we're not seeing the government step up to the plate and deal with it.</para>
<para>When I go through the electorates of Tangney and Burt, which are close to my home, people tell me they are struggling to get by. And it's not just in the mortgage belt areas, the newer parts of those electorates, or the outer suburbs; it's even close to town, where people would be more affluent. People across the board are feeling it, and this government is not doing anything to deal with it.</para>
<para>At last month's meeting the RBA made this observation:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Real household disposable incomes had declined by 3 per cent over the preceding year, as strong growth in nominal aggregate labour income had been more than offset by high inflation and rising tax and net interest payments. This had resulted in a period of weak growth in household consumption, including a decline in per capita terms.</para></quote>
<para>Yet the Treasurer keeps saying that there is nothing to see here and nothing that he can do to get inflation under control. It's all Russia's fault. It's because of the rising cost of fuel that's impacting upon Australians. The government can do something about it. They can't just shift the blame. The government can control aggregate demand, which is adding fuel to the inflation fire, by cutting fiscal spending. They can do that. They can get more money from people's pay packets into their pockets by bringing in tax cuts.</para>
<para>If the government doesn't tame inflation, it will become sticky and persist for longer. As the RBA said in its decision today:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… if high inflation were to become entrenched in people's expectations, it would be much more costly to reduce later, involving even higher interest rates and a larger rise in unemployment.</para></quote>
<para>The RBA has already indicated that inflation won't be back to the two to three per cent target band until late 2025. What does this mean for Australians? Are we going to continue to experience high rates of inflation because the government are not taking action to reduce the pressures upon the economy that are driving up inflation? They're putting fuel on the fire by bringing in things like the industrial relations reform, the so-called closing loopholes bill. All that is going to achieve is greater reliance on and influence of unions in our workplaces. It will decrease productivity in the workplace, which of course we know will add further fuel to the inflation fire that this government is not taking control of.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am delighted to make a contribution to this debate. If you listened to the contributions from senators on the other side of the chamber, you will have heard them rewrite history. And if you listened to Senator McKim's contribution you will understand why the Greens will never have to be accountable. They'll never be a government of the day to deliver anything—and thank goodness. What I want to put on the public record is this: 'The IMF concludes that fiscal policy and monetary policy are working together to address inflationary pressures.' That's what they've said about the Albanese Labor government.</para>
<para>We know that inflation is a big issue in the cost of living. But every time those on the other side have had the opportunity to support legislation to help Australians deal with the cost of living, what have they done? They've voted against that legislation. Of course we want inflation to come down. Of course we want interest rates to come down. That's why we're doing what we can, taking responsibility as a government, to help Australians get through this crisis. We've invested $23 billion in cost-of-living relief, and that's actually working. If you went out and talked to everyday Australians, Mr Acting Deputy President, you would understand that that $23 billion in electricity bill relief has meant something to people. Cheaper child care is having a huge impact in my home state of Tasmania. We've increased rental assistance—the biggest increase for 30 years. Hello, senators over there. What did you do when you were in government? You did zilch when it came to rental assistance.</para>
<para>We have done more in terms of reducing the cost of medicines. We brought in the 60-day prescription. The former government in 2018 had the same proposition put to them, but they weren't prepared to do it. We've done it because we know that it's going to help those people who rely on regular medication and reduce their costs. It will also reduce the impact on GPs; the people won't have to run to see their GP as often to get their regular medication.</para>
<para>We've invested in fee-free TAFE. What did they do over the 10 years that they were in government? This is not blaming them. This is about putting on the public record the reality, and that is that you ran TAFE into the ground. You did not invest in any training or skills in this country. You allowed company after company to leave this country and go overseas. That's what you oversaw. You oversaw the car industry folding. That's what you did when you were in government.</para>
<para>We have invested into the housing crisis in this country. What did they do with the $10 billion Future Fund? How did they go about supporting that legislation? They didn't; they voted against it time and time again, because, quite frankly, they do not care about people who are doing it tough in this country. They don't care about providing affordable and social housing for the most disadvantaged people in this community.</para>
<para>We had a senator come into this chamber today, saying: 'Woe is me. We should not be demanding that we have 24/7 nurses in aged care.' They were in government for 10 years and they ran aged care in this country into the ground. That's what they did year after year. And what did Mr Dutton do when he was Minister for Health? He took a billion dollars out of the health budget. The reality is—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: direct relevance. This is just getting embarrassing. She's talking about the Future Fund, which we established, and said we voted against—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You mean Senator Polley.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley. We're talking about inflation, not any of the other rubbish you've been verbal diarrhoeaing us with. If you could perhaps return to the topic, it would be helpful.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hughes. Senator Polley, please resume.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have been talking about inflation, but I also want to talk about the things that are helping families. You don't like to hear the truth. In terms of creating jobs and moving wages along, we had to rely on the Labor government to do that, because your policy in government was to keep wages down. We've expanded parental leave to support parents—in particular, supporting women coming back into the workforce. Now, we know the Liberals have a lot of problems attracting women to run for parliament. They have even more trouble getting women to vote for them, because of Mr Morrison and Mr Dutton. You can come in here and try to rewrite history, but the Australian people remember. They remember what this country was like under the Morrison government, under the Abbott government. They remember what it was like under the Turnbull government. The reality is they voted for Labor.</para>
<para>We've delivering. We will bring down inflation. We are there to help the Australian people. They can count on us, and I'm very proud of that.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's Melbourne Cup day today, and what a great day it is: 'the race that stops the nation'. But forget that; today we had 'the rate that stopped the nation'. What did the RBA do? They pulled the rate rise lever once again, for the 12th time since the Labor Party was elected. The Albanese government came to office promising they had a plan to lower the cost of living, a plan to lower the cost of power, a plan to lower interest rates, a plan to lower our power bills by how much? It was $275.</para>
<para>After 18 months in office, the only thing they have managed to lower is their polling numbers. The price of electricity is up. The price of groceries is up. The price of fuel is up. Immigration levels are up. Interest rates are up. The cost of housing is up. Rents are up. There is one thing that's down: the Prime Minister's approval rating. It will continue to go down because people are coming to their senses. They honeymoon is coming to an end—finally. People have realised that Labor just cannot manage the economy.</para>
<para>Heck, if they were a runner in the Melbourne Cup, they wouldn't have finished and they'd already be on the way to the glue factory. That's where they'd be—the glue factory.</para>
<para>This government came to power promising a plan to make the country a better place, a plan to improve everyone's situation. But, unfortunately, we're all worse off. I would love for the Prime Minister to explain what he proposes to do to address the costs of living in this country. Prime Minister, what is your plan? Perhaps, the Prime Minister could tell us the next time he decides to visit and stay in Australia.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Very noteworthy, Senator Babet, thank you very much. Senator McGrath.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This afternoon we heard the rather sad but unsurprising news that the Reserve Bank has had to increase interest rates on Australian families for the 12th time. That is the 12th time since the Albanese Labor government came to power. This would have to be some kind of record but not a very good one. Do you know how many times the Reserve Bank increased interest rates under Scott Morrison and the former coalition government? Just once. The Reserve Bank met 96 times when the former coalition government was in power, and interest rates went up once. In the first 18 months of this Albanese government, the Reserve Bank has met 17 times, and interest rates have been increased on 12 of those occasions. Indeed, you could say that, under Labor, interest rates are 12 times more likely to go up than they are under the coalition. The last time interest rates were this high was during the last Labor government, in the middle of the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd saga of 2011, when interest rates were, again—you guessed it!—out of control.</para>
<para>The Labor Party have demonstrated time and time again that they have a complete inability to manage their economy, and Australians are hurting because of it. In the last 15 months, the costs of your average Australian family's bills have gone up 7.3 per cent. Housing costs have gone up 10.4 per cent. The cost of electricity is up 18.2 per cent. The cost of food is up 8.2 per cent. The cost of gas is up a staggering 28 per cent. The cost of insurance is up 17.3 per cent. These aren't just statistics. These aren't just figures. These are the bills that Australian families are struggling to pay at the moment. The Labor Party go around parading that wages have increased by 3.6 per cent. Well, I've got news for the Labor Party. It doesn't matter if wages have gone up 3.6 per cent if the cost of everything is increasing twice as fast. And it is only going to get worse. The Labor government have had this year to try and get prices under control. This was Australia's opportunity to act. This was Australia's opportunity to help Australian families. But Labor has failed. Now we are witnessing growing conflict in the Middle East. We are witnessing major advanced economies start to shift closer to recessions. We are witnessing China approaching its slowest rate of economic growth since the fall of the Berlin Wall. We are witnessing an evermore unstable global environment, and Australian prices are going to go higher because this Labor government has not been able to get them under control.</para>
<para>In the last three months, housing has gone up 2.2 per cent, transport has gone up 3.2 per cent, and communication costs have gone up 2.2 per cent. But there is hope. The government can act to get inflation under control, but only if it has the political will. This inflation is not coming from Ukraine. It's not coming from Washington. It's not coming from the Middle East. It is coming from Canberra—plain and simple. This government can act. The government can allow domestic airline competition to reduce transportation costs. The government can work with states and territories to free up more land for housing development. The government can reduce the $188 billion in additional spending it has committed since elected. The government can stand up to the unions and tell them that they are taking industrial relations back to the 1970s and that it may not be the best idea in a cost-of-living crisis. But will they? All the evidence appears to the contrary.</para>
<para>We can fight inflation in this country, but only with a coalition government, because this Labor government has shown time and time again it just doesn't have the ticker for it. What we've seen over the last few months has been a Labor government focused on the politics of division, focused on a $450 million referendum and focused on spending money to help Canberra, rather than talking about costs of living.</para>
<para>I challenge the journalists in this building to research how many times Labor ministers said 'cost of living' before 14 October. I guarantee that it will yield a nil search.</para>
<para>That is the issue with this government: they're driven by focus groups and they're driven by polling. They have lost the referendum and now they're having a panic about what Australian people care about. I can tell them this, and anybody on this side can tell them this: the No. 1 issue in Australia for the last year has been the cost of living, and it has not been helped by this Labor government. They are making the cost-of-living crisis worse because they are not getting inflation under control.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for the discussion has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PETITIONS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>PETITIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Banking and Financial Services</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—at the request of Senator Canavan, I table two non-conforming petitions relating to bank closures in Western Australia, including at Waroona, received by the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee. The documents have been circulated to the whips.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cbus Super Fund, Parole Applications, Goods and Services Tax, Order for the Production of Documents</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning the Cbus Super fund, GST revenue distribution and parole applications.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>55</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>55</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, noting that as the national electricity grid is rapidly transitioning to more dispersed methods of generation, transmission and storage, and acknowledging that such transitions will transgress on agricultural, Indigenous, national or marine parks, and protected environmental land, the following matter be referred to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee for inquiry and report by 11 June 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The compulsory acquisition of land, including interests in land, for purposes related to electricity generation, transmission, distribution and storage with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the interaction and efficacy of compulsory access and acquisition powers and responsibilities of Commonwealth, state and territory governments;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the adequacy of Commonwealth, state and territory legislation, policies, programs, schemes and funding relating to compulsory access and acquisition of land (including an interest in land) from landholders;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the provision, and disbursement, of compensation under Commonwealth, state and territory governments’ compulsory access and acquisition legislation and policy;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">identifying best practice approaches to the development and implementation of a fair national approach to compulsory access and acquisition consultation and compensation;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">measures required to secure the rights of landowners, farmers and fishers to maintain and safeguard the continued productivity of agriculture and fisheries, including emergency management;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the efficacy of consultation processes between Indigenous landholders, farmers and fishers, and Commonwealth, state and territory governments and energy companies seeking to compulsorily access or acquire agricultural, Indigenous, National and marine parks, and protected environmental lands; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">any related matters.</para></quote>
<para>Here we are again: 'transmission Tuesday'. Many in this room will say, 'Why are we bringing Ross in again?' I'd say to be thankful that we haven't started our 'wind factory Wednesdays' yet!</para>
<para>This is a problem, and this particular reference looks at a very specific part of this: the rights of landholders. It's about property rights. We understand that for this process of Rewiring the Nation—this policy for diverse energy going forward—to be successful it has to have almost bipartisan support. With the changes of government over a long time, many of these things won't be built for six, 10 or 15 years. But what's happening now is not being done well. We see EISs of 28 days; the hamstringing of the AER regulation on the lowest cost to consumer; and that it sometimes costs more to do minor changes than to buy entire properties.</para>
<para>What this inquiry seeks to do is put up a long-term sustainable model by having an investigation, by talking to these people and coming up with an answer so that this policy can happen over the long term in a way that doesn't disturb farming, doesn't disturb environmental land and doesn't disturb marine parks, and in a way that all parties of government can get behind. What do we want to talk about? We want to talk about the people in Dunedoo, Oberon and other places. All these people have concerns. There's enough money going around in this process to do it better. There is enough organisation there. When we were talking out west, we talked about two 330-kVA lines, which cost $3.2 million per kilometre to run straight.</para>
<para>But when we bend them, they cost $7 million per kilometre. What do we do? We bend them all around, we take longer, we spend twice as much and we still don't meet the farmers' needs. We talk about the Hackneys but the only area on the farm that stays non-boggy when there is heavy rain, where they can load animals and where they can put their silos, will be taken. Why do they take that land? Because it is the best place for these transmission lines. Their farm becomes non-viable, and what do they get paid for—the narrow corridor it's in.</para>
<para>We want this inquiry to look at the fairness, the just terms of compensation. New South Wales has no legislation, nothing in the constitution about compulsory acquisition. They are not able to buy anything on the land, not able to buy the business. They are not allowed to do these things.</para>
<para>Looking at transmission in Oberon, do you remember that two-kilometre exclusion zone of houses from wind farms or wind factory towers? That was put in place when towers were 84 metres high. The towers in Oberon are now going to be 285 metres high, 400 of them. There is only one building in Sydney taller—Sydney Tower—and they are going to build 400 towers bigger than that out there. What's worse, they are not down low; they are on a mountain. They are on a ridgeline. The entire vista will be these wind factories. Where is the just compensation for all those people affected? It does not exist.</para>
<para>Let's get down to tin tacks. This is about property rights. This is about a person owning their property and having the right to say what goes on it and how you can do it. When they ask you to move the power lines a little bit so they can farm, if we can't compensate, why can't the owner trigger a must-buy for the entire property? Why can't the owner trigger a clause where they have to be bought out at the federal just terms rate for their property so they can continue farming unhindered elsewhere? We are seeing the community rise up about this because it is not going the right way. Up in my patch in the Hunter, we have the proposed Port Stephens offshore wind farm. There is not a commercially viable floating offshore wind farm in the world—not one. So to all those who say, 'Nuclear is not viable because it is not built anywhere,' it doesn't matter. We are doing something less viable in Australia right now, and we are up in arms again because of 28 days of EIS. How can a community come together to understand what is going on in 28 days when it has been foisted upon them?</para>
<para>My personal view is these things don't have to stop. They need to be done better if they are to be done at all. So how can we push ahead? I know there is a tinpot little very-narrow-scope inquiry from the electricity infrastructure ombudsman out there, but he is not hearing all of those. When someone connected with that office says the pilots like the challenge in aerial agricultural flying near lines, it is rubbish. These people deserve a voice. No-one is trying to overthrow anything here; it is about trying to find a policy that all parties of government can support in the long-term.</para>
<para>I sat in estimates and I heard how Snowy 2.0 is drawing out, how these transmission lines are taking longer than they thought they would. There is a 24 per cent decrease in investment in renewable energy this year compared to last year in FIDs. We know new generation is going slower. We know the New South Wales government is talking to businesses about keeping Eraring and all these other places open. It is time to admit the goals of renewable for 2030 are gone, so don't rush to fail. Slow down and succeed. Talk to these people about what is fair, about a way to do it. If you went to the Hackneys and said, 'We have to go here, even though we are bendy'—7.7 kilometres, with a 2.9 kilometre run through their land—and offered them $10 million, I don't know what their land is worth but I think they would be interested, and they could go and farm without this hassle.</para>
<para>When you're talking to people down around the Riverina about VNI West, it's the same thing. The Victorian government have managed to reroute the entire plan because they wanted to for political reasons. New South Wales has to pick up how it connects because it's got to connect to Snowy. These things are going on as we speak.</para>
<para>I keep bringing up this two-tier economy. It's like <inline font-style="italic">Upstairs, Downstairs</inline>. If the people in the cities can turn on their aircon, turn on their flat screens and charge their electric cars, they don't care what happens out there in the world. But the people that make things, grow things, mine things and care for things are out there, almost as the servants' quarters for the city, and it's not good enough. It's not good enough for them to be told how they have to live and what they have to deliver to be part of this country. It's like <inline font-style="italic">The Castle</inline>: 'It's the Constitution; it's justice; it's the vibe.' It's about doing something in a fair way and not telling them how to suck eggs. That's the real problem with this country at the moment. Too many of us people in towers, in corporations and in places like this think we know better than others how they have to live their lives. We tell them: 'Hand over your land; it's for the good of the country. We're going through here. You don't need that dry patch. You don't need that vista. You don't need anything, because we need power.' You say to these people, 'You just want more money.' No, they don't. Most of them would take no money and no powerlines or no money and no wind farms. This isn't about money; this is about justice. This is about doing something right.</para>
<para>And so we come for the seventh time to this chamber to try and help the country with a long-term plan that won't get rolled back. I guarantee that I will not be sitting and supporting us in government if we don't do this better and roll this back, because it is wrong the way it is. Many of the people up there in Port Stephens are environmentalists who would have voted 100 per cent for people who are going to vote this motion down today. When they feel the pain, they see what we're talking about, and they are feeling the pain right across Australia—in New England, on the coast, in Queensland and down in Victoria. This is a problem that is spreading across Australia, and it will bring us all down. We come here as leaders to bring Australia together and build a better Australia. We don't come here as politicians to divide the haves and the have-nots. This inquiry is an opportunity to give people a chance to come together for a solution that will build a better Australia. It is nothing more than that. If you tell this increasingly large number of people that they don't deserve that by voting this down again, we'll see you in the last sitting fortnight, and we'll do the same thing again. And we'll see you next year, and we'll do the same thing again. And we will bring them here, and they'll be out the front, and we know what will happen. They'll be ignored out there, just as they're ignored in here.</para>
<para>The people that made this country great did things. They didn't market things, they didn't insure things and they didn't sue people over those things. They built things, they mined things, they made things and they grew things. These are the people that are suffering here. It's the people that grow your food and your fibre. We are taking their water with the Murray-Darling Basin Plan. We are taking their land with this. We're taking their names for products under trade deals. We're taking their staff with visa deals. We are taking everything off them and still expect them to feed us and clothe us. And then we expect to tell them how to live. We say: 'You've got to have an E zone on your property. You can't farm here. You've got to protect this. There's a left-handed butterfly living in your cactus plant; you can't do anything there.' These are the things that people in towers do. You can't virtue-signal your way to a lucky country. You can't wish your way to posterity. It has to happen. We in this chamber get it. I'm a talker. I'm here, not making anything. I'm a part-time mechanic for my son's go-kart, and that's as real as I get nowadays. But, out there, people are doing the hard yards.</para>
<para>They are sowing, they are ploughing, they are shearing and they are milking. Dairy farmers have the hardest job in the world. Try telling a cow you can't milk it twice today because you want to go on holidays. See how that goes for you.</para>
<para>I urge everyone—this is nothing other than finding a path to do something you want to do better and finding a way to look after rural and regional Australia so that they will be happy to join us in the way that you want to live and do the things you want to do. Why do we not deal with the consequences of this change? There will be 285-metre towers instead of 84-metre towers on top of mountains, acres of solar farms instead of a few solar panels and structures on whale migration tracks off Port Stephens. All of these things are happening, and no-one seems to give a damn, because we're trying to get to a number that we already admit we can't get to. Isn't it better to do it in a way that lasts forever than to do it in a way where we have to overturn it and do it the right way when we get there?</para>
<para>You won't get final investment decisions when there is no certainty about bipartisan support. You won't. I'm not going to invest $2 billion on something when I think that, in six months time or three years time, the government is going to change it and I'm going to pull everything on it. Come to the table. That's what we're here to do. Senator Colbeck is sponsoring this with me because it needs to be done right. It is nothing more than that. The people suffering out there deserve it, and I urge your support.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's with great pleasure that I stand with my colleague Senator Cadell to support a motion on this matter. It's for the seventh time. It's absolutely ludicrous that the government doesn't want to hear the voices of the communities that are coming to us to express their concerns about the way that this very important infrastructure is being rolled out. The government tries to portray this as the opposition not wanting to see the development of the grid to support renewable energy and the growth in energy needs across the country. That is simply not true. That is a lie, in fact. That is not what this motion is seeking to do.</para>
<para>We know, because we have been talking to people—to farmers, fishers and Indigenous communities—that there are a whole range of issues in relation to equity and fairness and the terms under which lands and seas are accessed for the development of this infrastructure. We know that because we've been having the conversations. We've been talking to them. The government know there's a problem, because they've instituted their own little in-house secret-squirrel inquiry. But they don't want the voices that are talking to that process to be heard publicly, which they would be through a Senate inquiry. Communities could come and give evidence to the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee. Their voices could be heard in public, rather than in secret-squirrel meetings behind closed doors where their complaints can't be heard, and the full weight and support of this chamber could be brought to the government to assist it with the solutions.</para>
<para>We know that the government is looking for solutions. We know that that's the case, and we want to see fair terms for access to these lands and seas and for those who are impacted. We've been told in a separate inquiry—the government's inquiry that it asked the Joint Standing Committee on Trade and Investment Growth to do into creating Australia as a green export superpower—that Indigenous communities get paid a lower rate in Queensland than graziers do. Tell me how that's fair. Why can't this chamber play a role in fixing that?</para>
<para>Off Gippsland, about 20,000 tonnes of fish come out of the South East Trawl Fishery. Ninety per cent of that fishery is impacted by the zones that have currently been declared. How do we fairly manage the impact on that fishery and on the supply of seafood from that fishery into Sydney and Melbourne regional markets? How do we make sure that's properly managed? How do we do that? The government is not prepared to say, but they don't want the seafood industry to be able to come and talk to parliament or to the Senate openly about what they think the solutions are, which we might then be able to recommend to the parliament and, therefore, to the government. They don't want to have that conversation. Senator Cadell has talked about the circumstances off Port Stephens in New South Wales, and we've seen plenty of publicity recently about the concerns that the local community has there, from a whole range of perspectives. It's not just fisheries, and it's not just fisheries off Gippsland either. It's tourism. It's a whole range of other things.</para>
<para>The terms of reference for this inquiry are written in that constructive mode. How do we make sure that the way in which these energy companies and those proposing these major pieces of infrastructure access the land and seas is done in a fair way and on just terms? You would expect that that's what would happen as a matter of course, but we know that there are a whole range of dodgy type contracts that are being offered out there to farmers in particular. We know that there are issues with determining the routes along which these major pieces of infrastructure will be built. Senator Cadell has talked about the scale of some of this infrastructure, and we haven't even started talking about the potential impacts on the environment and on environmental lands, which this inquiry also wants to look at. I can't understand why the Greens aren't interested in this. I genuinely can't understand it. I say that because, in Queensland, you have the circumstance where you've got over a thousand hectares of koala habitat impacted by the development of a major piece of infrastructure. Try and cut down a tree for any other reason anywhere in the country.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Don't build a dam!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Good point, Senator: don't try and build a dam. But you can impact native wildlife habitat—koala habitat—to build a major piece of energy infrastructure, and that doesn't seem to be a problem. WWF will get on television and tell you that you should donate to WWF because koalas are going to become extinct, yet here we have a piece of infrastructure that will impact over a thousand hectares of native vegetation that is important koala habitat. So what are the appropriate terms and conditions on which all of these things are done? That's what this inquiry would like to do. The terms of reference would include, for example, 'identifying best practice approaches to the development and implementation of a fair national approach to compulsory acquisition consultation and compensation'. Why is the government and why are the Greens voting against that? The inquiry would look into 'the efficacy of consultation processes between Indigenous landholders, farmers and fishers, and Commonwealth, state and territory governments and energy companies seeking to compulsorily access or acquire agricultural, Indigenous, national and marine parks, and protected environmental lands'.</para>
<para>This motion is about trying to make sure that the development of the energy grid, which is critical for Australia, is done properly.</para>
<para>There is an extraordinary amount of work that's going to have to happen, and a huge number of communities, landowners and owners of access rights in fisheries and environmental lands are going to be impacted. All that we are looking to do is play a constructive part in that process to ensure there's a decent approach and there are nationally recognised processes, guidelines and compensation, because it's all over the shop at the moment. It is seriously all over the shop. It's different in Victoria to NSW and Queensland. A farmer in Western Australia gets less than a farmer in Queensland, and there's no ongoing payment for having transmission lines on your farm in Tasmania right now.</para>
<para>There's significant work that has to be there because Tasmania will play its important role in the development of the national grid, through the construction of Basslink, which is a project jointly run between the Commonwealth and the Tasmanian and Victorian governments. It's a really important piece of infrastructure for my home state, but it will also involve connection to the grid and transmission lines across agricultural land, particularly across the north of Tasmania. There are farmers in my communities that I've spoken to who are likewise concerned. There are communities who are concerned that the projects actually go ahead.</para>
<para>We had the Burnie mayor here yesterday to talk to the energy minister to make sure that the projects do go ahead, because she is concerned that the investment that will come from these new projects will come into north-west Tasmania and benefit her community, our Tasmanian communities. It is important that these things occur. It is important, though, that they occur in an orderly way. It's important that they occur under just terms. It's important that the compensation that's received is fair. If we are going to achieve the national goals that are set to expand the grid, the last thing that we need is communities out protesting against the development. The way we go about this is the most important thing. That is the thing that's going to make a difference.</para>
<para>And, can I tell you, at the moment, that's not what's happening. The government does not want the voices of these people, these communities, to be heard. We saw farmers come from Cairns to Brisbane to protest. For those that don't understand, it's further from Cairns to Brisbane than it is from Brisbane to Melbourne. It's a bloody long way to go to make sure that what's happening in your community is done in a fair and proper way. We had farmers in this chamber waiting for hours to hear the debate on this matter go ahead. They don't come to Canberra for no reason. The farmers do not come to Canberra for no reason. They're here because they have concerns. They're here because the government won't listen to them. They're here because they don't think they're getting a fair deal We think they should.</para>
<para>If we want to see the major development that is required to extend the grid to support the Australian economy—and, can I tell you, reliable, affordable energy is one of the key indicators to the economic wealth of the country and to the economic fortunes of the country—we've got to do this properly. The terms of reference for this inquiry have been written in that context, in a constructive way, so that this parliament, this Senate, can play its constructive role in ensuring that this is done properly and that we don't have farmers on tractors arriving at Parliament House in Canberra, Sydney or Melbourne or wherever else—or in their local communities—to protest at the way that they're being treated.</para>
<para>We want a process that's done properly and fairly, one in which they believe and feel that they have had a fair voice. The government simply isn't there at the moment.</para>
<para>They'll trot out their talking points. They'll tell you that this is just about people who don't want renewable energy to go ahead. Well, that's not why I'm standing here. That's not why, with Senator Cadell, I have put this motion up seven times now. I want to see my communities treated properly and fairly, and I want to see communities all over the country treated the same way. Why should a community in Western Australia get more than a community or farmer in Queensland? Why should a grazier in Queensland get more than an Indigenous owner in Queensland? Why are there dodgy contracts floating around out there at the moment?</para>
<para>The government really does need to come to its senses on this. As Senator Cadell said, we do not intend to give up on this. This is an important matter for our communities. The government can try and dismiss it and say, 'It's all about politics and people who don't believe in renewables.' That's not true. That's not the case. The government should come to its senses and support this reference, because we want reliable energy across this country and for it to be achieved in fair and just terms.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Transmission Tuesday, part 7—it sounds like a bad Hollywood movie.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cadell</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a tragedy.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a tragedy, Senator Cadell. It's a tragedy that you and Senator Colbeck have had to move this motion seven times. For those listening to the broadcast, I think it's really important to set the scene. Why has this motion been put up seven times? It must be an extraordinarily controversial motion. It must directly criticise the government, undermine some sort of government policy or do something terribly radical. Well, in actual fact, it doesn't. No offence, Senator Cadell and Senator Colbeck, but this motion doesn't do anything radical at all. All it does is give voice, which is the one of the most important jobs this chamber has, to a group of people who want a very important issue canvassed in the forum of a Senate committee.</para>
<para>The issue is the huge number of transmission lines and the other infrastructure that will be installed in Australia over the next decades, based on this government's current plan, and the disproportionate impact that that's going to have on a relatively small part of the Australian community. Transmission lines feed into the city, in general, from where the power is created, often in rural and regional areas. When they hit the city, they go through a little bit of urban land, but the vast bulk of the impact of those transmission lines and that infrastructure is on regional communities. The impact is on farmland.</para>
<para>Those communities want a say in this plan for tens of thousands of kilometres of new transmission lines, new sites for wind turbines and new sites for solar factories. They want a say in how it's going to be rolled out, how it's going to impact them, how they're going to be consulted and how they're going to be compensated. Those communities deserve to be heard. It's not too much. In fact, having this chamber, through the committee process, look at these issues is the very least that those communities should be given.</para>
<para>It's not that the committee process is an adversarial one. Sometimes it gets a bit feisty, but the committee process is also a way in which future-looking bipartisan, tripartisan or otherwise multipartisan plans for contentious issues can be taken forward. In my time in this place, I have seen it time and time again. Committees have actually come together to try and reach a point of agreement and take forward a model that satisfies very divergent requirements—and the requirements are divergent. Nobody's saying that this isn't a difficult issue, but that's why we need an inquiry. It is a difficult issue. The difference between choosing path A, path B and path C for a transmission line can have dramatic impacts. It can have dramatic impacts on communities and on individual farming properties, including generational farming properties, which this chamber, through the committee system, should be empowered to look at.</para>
<para>I just find it ludicrous that the Labor Party and the Greens have backed themselves into a corner, rejecting these entirely reasonable terms of reference for an inquiry. There is nothing radical in here. There is nothing that's a direct attack on the government. There's nothing that says that this committee should find that there shouldn't be allowed to be any transmission lines on anybody's farm ever again. That's not part of the terms of reference. They are very reasonable terms of reference to look at an issue that is very real and that imposes burdens, supposedly for the benefit of all society, on a very narrow part of society. It's not people in urban areas who are going to have to deal with these tens of thousands of kilometres of new transmission lines or with the wind farms and the solar farms. It simply isn't. They will see the supposed benefits of these things in time—we can have another argument about that—but the fact is that people in urban centres, people in cities, don't have to deal with the transmission lines. They don't have to deal with the massive imposition.</para>
<para>The areas we're talking about are simply staggering. One company in Western Australia is talking about 4,000 acres of solar and wind projects—one company with 4,000 acres, and that's just to power their business. That's not powering Perth. That is not powering the grid. That's just for their business. So we are talking about staggering amounts of land use into the future. Whilst perhaps on the west coast that will be slightly less than on the east coast, the fact is that the same issues are at play no matter where you are in Australia.</para>
<para>These issues deserve to be ventilated in a forum such as a Senate committee where we can hear from local communities, and we will hear a lot of different perspectives. I have absolutely no doubt about that. We are not going to hear from just one view of the world. There are plenty of people who would love to see opportunities for their patch, including economic opportunities, but let's hear about it. Let's hear about how the costs and benefits can be shared between the city and the bush. Let's hear about how the costs and benefits can be shared between those who derive revenue from these electricity generation projects and transmission lines and those who have to put up with the impost upon them.</para>
<para>Let's hear about how we can compensate landowners for their loss of amenity and loss of property rights. If we're serious about our Constitution then we should be serious about that issue. How do we compensate property owners for the continual taking, via regulation, of their rights? Again, it's not an issue that's going to be dealt with easily, but it is something that this place should be willing to confront.</para>
<para>Labor and the Greens again have an opportunity to change their minds, and I ask them to consider it. They've again got an opportunity to say: 'We got it wrong the first of six times. We should have this inquiry. We should enable a Senate committee to look at what is a very important issue'—just as literally thousands of other inquiries have been held on important and contentious issues. We'll see whether Labor and the Greens can bring themselves to support what is an entirely reasonable motion from Senators Colbeck and Cadell. We'll see whether they'll listen to the voices of those in the regions who will be directly impacted by this suite of policies, and whether they'll let them tell the Senate what they think the way forward should look like. That would be the only fair and reasonable thing to do.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I remind people of what Thomas Jefferson said: we can have farming without cities yet cannot have cities without farming. No farmers, no Australia! Why does this Labor government use the states to steal property from hardworking landowners and rip off farmers left, right and centre? Why? Because it can. And it builds on actions of past Liberal-National governments.</para>
<para>Before explaining that, Madam Acting Deputy President, let me say that I have a list of eight keys to ongoing, sustained human progress—just ones that I've developed over the years. The first is freedom. The second is the rule of law. The third is constitutional continuance and competitive federalism. The fourth is secure private property rights. That's fundamental. It enables freedom. The fifth is strong families. The sixth is affordable, reliable energy. Then there's fair and honest taxation and honest money.</para>
<para>Secure property rights are fourth on my list. Why? Because secure property rights are fundamental to reward for genuine effort and creativity and for investing and taking risk. People won't do that if they can't keep what they earn. Secondly, secure property rights are necessary for people to exercise initiative. Thirdly, secure property rights are necessary for people to exercise responsibility and accountability, because if you can just steal it then why would you have any accountability? The fourth fundamental about secure property rights is freedom. They enable freedom. This has been well known for centuries. One of the reasons communism and socialism always fail is that they steal property rights. And it's the reason, always, that personal free enterprise succeeds until the government—and this has happened repeatedly throughout history—gets too big and infringes on civil liberties. It destroys property rights and infringes on civil liberties.</para>
<para>So secure property rights are very important, and our founding fathers agreed, because our Commonwealth Constitution recognises and enshrines the importance of secure property rights. Under placitum (xxxi) of section 51 of the Commonwealth Constitution, our Constitution, the Commonwealth may acquire property from a state or person providing it is on just terms. To put that in context, section 51 of the Constitution says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Parliament shall, subject to this Constitution, have power to make laws for the peace, order, and good government of the Commonwealth with respect to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …   </para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xxxi) the acquisition of property on just terms from any State or person for any purpose in respect of which the Parliament has power to make laws;</para></quote>
<para>That is clear—'just terms'. This means that the Commonwealth, the federal government, must pay the person being dispossessed of rights to use their land reasonable and just compensation for the property the Commonwealth acquires. If the Commonwealth interferes with rights to use land, it must pay just-terms compensation.</para>
<para>Generally, the states lack such property protections. Should a state acquire—or even steal, as has happened—land for a state, it does not need to provide compensation. Under state constitutions, no compensation is required. Even if a state acquires land for a Commonwealth purpose, the state is not bound under the Commonwealth Constitution to acquire it under just terms. This would then enable working around the constitutional protection for landowners, as I'm going to tell you with a story that is actually factual.</para>
<para>This is a story about the worst theft of property rights in our country's history. It happened during the lifetime of everyone in this chamber. In 2007, after John Howard was booted from office, I wrote a personal letter of thanks to him. I thought highly of John Howard. I thanked him and acknowledged him for his 30 years of work and for being at the forefront of the governance and policies introduced by the Keating and Hawke governments as well as has his own government afterward. Yet I didn't know at the time something that I'm going to share with you. It was the former Liberal-National coalition government under Prime Minister John Howard who came up with the disgraceful mechanism of using the states to do the federal government's dirty work for it. This is not new. This goes back to 1996-97.</para>
<para>The story starts with the United Nations Kyoto protocol on climate variation and John Howard's admitted desire to comply with it. He said he wouldn't sign the 1997 Kyoto protocol but we would comply with it as a country. He or his government realised that people were not ready at that time to shut down industry, power stations, agriculture, travel and transport that produce carbon dioxide, so they came up with a different idea—a worse idea: stop the farmers clearing their land. Stop the farmers using their land as they were free to do. The Constitution, though, requires compensation. That would have been worth hundreds of billions of dollars. The federal government could not afford that, so the Howard government went around the Constitution, using the states to do the federal government's dirty work of stealing farmers' land to comply with the UN Kyoto Protocol, because John Howard's government realised that they could cut the production of carbon dioxide or they could stop the clearing of land, which would be getting credit for giving more absorption of carbon dioxide. It was the same net effect. He did it without any scientific basis, as I'll explain in a minute.</para>
<para>One of the Howard government's early responses was to do a deal with Rob Borbidge's National Party government in Queensland. We had a National Party government in Queensland and three signatures from the senior National Party people, doing a deal with the Liberal-National federal government. They did a similar deal with Bob Carr, of the Labor Party in New South Wales, and then entrenched the deal with Peter Beattie in Queensland. Despite the denials under the Morrison government, this is still something the federal government relies upon for climate compliance. The irony is that John Howard betrayed himself as a champion of the Constitution and a champion of property rights that are fundamental to free enterprise societies. If you don't believe me on this story, ask Peter Spencer, who nearly died protesting. Ask Dan McDonald and many farmers who are awake to this in Queensland and New South Wales.</para>
<para>In 2013, six years after being booted from office, John Howard said, as the annual lecturer on climate at the London Global Warming Policy Foundation, which is a sceptic think tank opposed to the impacts of climate policy economically, that, after doing what he did to destroy our electricity sector and steal farmers' property rights, on the topic of climate science he was agnostic. None of it was driven by climate science.</para>
<para>Yet he led a government that stole farmers' property rights and introduced a renewable energy target that is now gutting our electricity sector—shipping manufacturing overseas because of high electricity prices, driving families broke and causing inflation. His government concocted the National Electricity Market, which is really a racket. It's not a market; it's a bureaucracy that controls prices. Contrary to what people have been saying about Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd, John Howard was the first leader of a major party and of a government to put in place an emissions trading scheme as policy.</para>
<para>This set a pattern for Labor because, if you look at the history of climate policy and energy policy, the Liberal-National coalition introduces climate and energy initiatives and the Labor Party, when it comes in, then ramps them up. Have a look at the safeguard mechanism as a foundation for a global carbon dioxide tax. That was admitted when Greg Hunt, under Malcolm Turnbull's prime ministership, introduced the safeguard mechanism in 2015. It wasn't Chris Bowen—he just ramped it up. The UN's net zero strategy was first introduced to Australia by Scott Morrison, and it was then ramped up by the Greens and the Labor Party. Carbon farming—or money farming—sterilises and steals and locks up the land, increasing the cost of feral animal management and noxious weed management for all the farmers in the area. Locking up land means it becomes full of weeds. For UN biodiversity policies, look at the Howard government again.</para>
<para>Back to the Howard government, the 2007 Water Act and the Murray-Darling Basin Authority separated water entitlements from the land. Now we see in the Murray-Darling Basin—with the loss of property rights and water entitlements—the land is now married back up with water in the hands of corporate farmers on corporate farms. One of the aims of the Water Act, which is repeatedly stated throughout the act, is compliance with international agreements. What the hell is that doing in our legislation?</para>
<para>Let's have a look at the Labor state and federal governments. The Beattie Labor government in Queensland ramped up the stealing of farmers' property rights by imposing more restrictions on farmers' use of land, and so did Anna Bligh's government. Campbell Newman's government failed to restore property rights and just looked the other way. Annastacia Palaszczuk has since extended the stealing of property rights and entrenched it. The states have become adept at this method of stealing land from landowners, mostly as an attack on farmers, and not paying just terms compensation. Another way the states—Queensland in particular—do this is by using environmental reasons to justify placing restrictions on farmers' use of land, reducing the worth of land, preventing it from alternative productive use and preventing the development of the land for agricultural or grazing purposes. For example, the Great Barrier Reef protection legislation—contrary to the evidence of farming having no impact on the Great Barrier Reef—is having a devastating impact on communities because of the unfounded and unscientific restrictions that the Labor government has placed on farming communities up and down the east coast of Queensland. This is destroying productive land—with woody weeds under native vegetation protection legislation—and turning productive land with a bright future into a monoculture of woody weeds and no grass, which increases erosion.</para>
<para>This Labor federal government has declared war on farmers and primary producers. It's hijacking prime agricultural land to install banks of ugly wind turbines and poisonous and dangerous solar panels, vandalising literally acres of otherwise productive food-producing land. Any person should be able to see the stupidity, the hypocrisy and the economic devastation of such actions. In its desperate attempts to virtue signal to the world that it is a conservation and climate-saving giant, the Labor government is hell-bent on covering the landscape with expensive and inefficient wind turbines, ugly banks of solar panels—and damn the consequences. We see huge complexes of solar and wind farms built with no connection to the grid. We see it in Victoria and we see it in Queensland.</para>
<para>Now they are thinking, 'We'd better build transmission lines.' Transmission lines are going to chew up prime environmental habitat and farming.</para>
<para>Now more than 100 square kilometres of koala habitat in Queensland is under threat from the developers of these destructive wind turbine projects, all in the name of so-called renewable energy and at the cost of the environment and the extinction of rare wildlife—another aspect of killing the environment to save it. Other damage to farming by the Labor government include stopping regional infrastructure spending to improve the productivity of the regions and stopping live cattle and live sheep exports.</para>
<para>Farmers are hard pressed to stop the states, acting for the Commonwealth, from stealing land and attacking the property rights of farmers. The Labor government, in bed with the Greens and the teals, is pushing inhuman and antihuman policies, antienvironment policies and anti-Australian policies. Labor, Greens and the LNP, the Liberals and Nationals, are hell-bent on promoting projects that are destroying the land, destroying the environment, increasing unemployment, destroying the economy and pushing up the cost of living in Australia and reducing our security by exporting our major manufacturing. When it becomes too expensive to sip a latte in the city, even the teals might wake up to the fact that their lefty policies are making it too hard to continue living in what was the lucky country.</para>
<para>If our farmers chuck it all in, this country is lost, and the Chinese can simply walk in and create a food bowl to feed Asia. I remind you that Thomas Jefferson said, 'You can have farming without cities, but you cannot have cities without farming.' No farmers, no Australia. I haven't got time at the moment, but the stealing of property rights is not restricted to farmers. It is happening in urban environments, including Caboolture, near Brisbane. It is happening in Mosman, in Sydney. I fully support this motion from senators Colbeck and Cadell. It needs to go much further to encompass past theft of property and federal-state collusion enabling uncompensated theft of property rights with no just terms of compensation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise here today in support of Senator Colbeck and Cadell's motion—obviously, I do; you all know that. What is our nation's electricity grid? It's like a square peg in a round hole because it's being forced to adapt to unreliable and inconsistent methods of electricity generation. That's what is going on. We have this reckless push—that's what it is—towards so-called renewable energy which is not renewable at all. What's renewable about Chinese solar panels and wind turbines that end up in landfill at the end of their useful life anyway? That's not renewable. It will only push up electricity prices, and we all know that. It's smashing Australian land holders, farmers and fishers. Prime farmland and sea life are under direct threat from our nation's ill-advised solar and wind transition. Farmers are facing compulsory acquisition or, even worse, having high-voltage powerlines imposed on them through their property, with no entitlement to adequate compensation.</para>
<para>A few months ago what did the Secretary-General of the United Nations, Antonio Guterres, say? Antonio Gutteres informed the world that we had moved from global warming to 'the era of global boiling'. This guy is a nut case—that's what he is—global boiling! It was all very dramatic. To me it was a little bit funny, and for those of us in the Senate who eagerly wait to find out what comes after 'global boiling', perhaps it's this: perhaps next time he will come on TV and warn us about—I don't know—global microwaving. How about that? Maybe he'll tell us that we've entered the era of global molten lava. Who knows? I don't know. Do you know? This guy is nuts. But he'll be sure to come up with something dramatic in order to get a headline and keep the climate fear, which is what it is. It's like climate fear porn in the news and top of mind for the misinformed among us. That's what he is doing.</para>
<para>Personally, I don't mind the term 'global boiling' because—do you know what?—tempers are boiling right now. Tempers are boiling at least in regional Australia, not so much in the inner city for the woke latte sipping lefty activists. But in regional areas, tempers are boiling. Farmers are boiling mad. They're boiling mad about the government's plan to litter the countryside—that's what it is—with wind turbines. What do these wind turbines do? They destroy prime agriculture land.</para>
<para>Our very own climate high priest, Minister Chris Bowen, is telling our farmers that they must put up with wind turbines that are around 285 metres tall or something like that being plonked into their paddocks. If these hulking great turbines—these monuments to ridiculousness and madness—are not enough of a blight on the landscape, Minister Bowen is telling them that he's also, potentially, going to crisscross their properties with 10,000 kilometres of transmission lines.</para>
<para>In the town of Oberon in New South Wales, the government is planning on erecting around 400 of these wind turbines. The City of Sydney has got 16 buildings that are more than 200 metres tall. Oberon in the Central Tablelands would have 400 turbines that are higher than that. For the love of God, doesn't anyone care about the eagles? What about the eagles? Where are the Greens? Save the eagles! Apart from being an eyesore, the whir of just one of these monstrosities can be heard up to 10 kilometres away. Multiply that by 400 and you can start to understand why the people of Oberon are red hot about this issue. Let's be honest: of course the eyesore won't be seen from the Prime Minister's residence, and the noise pollution will not be heard in Minister Bowen's electorate or in any of the Greens or Teals members' electorates either. The Oberon community believe—not without good reason, I might add—that the proposed wind farm will damage the value of their homes, farms and businesses, and they're right. And for what? For nothing.</para>
<para>If Minister Bowen manages by some miracle to reach the end of his net zero rainbow, China will continue to increase their emissions—they're not stopping—and will quickly swallow up whatever gains Australia has made. We don't talk about China enough in this place, and we should. Here's the kick in the you-know-what: we buy these wind turbines from China, mostly, who manufacture them with energy supplied by Australian coal. Ridiculous! Net zero—it's this. It's nothing more than a wealth transfer to the CCP and, as my colleague Senator Roberts likes to say, global predatory billionaires. That's where it's going. You can't make this stuff up. You just can't. It's madness. No wonder Chairman Xi Jinping loves Australia so much—at least, he claims to. Few other things in life would give him as much to laugh about in his life right now than our energy policy. It's nuts. We shut our country down and send everything to China, and they laugh at us.</para>
<para>Minister Bowen wants to plonk 40 new wind turbines a month in regional areas every month for the next seven years. He says that it'll save the environment. No, Minister Bowen, it's not going to save anything. It's going to destroy the environment, and it's going to ruin people's lives. The pain being inflicted right now on the people of Oberon and all the other country folk across the country, from Queensland to Tasmania, needs to stop. It needs to end. If the government is serious about achieving net zero and if they're not just a patsy for China, they could do it with nuclear power and have the added bonus of not destroying the lives and livelihoods of all the rural communities. The government's stubborn refusal to even contemplate nuclear is frankly outrageous. It's enough to make country people's blood boil. There's your global boiling—the country people's blood is boiling. Listen to the concern of our farmers, Minister Bowen and Prime Minister Albanese. Rather than bullying them into accepting turbines and transmission lines that they don't want or need, listen to them. Consider nuclear instead.</para>
<para>If you really want to shore up our power supply, for God's sake stop this madness. Once again, I will commend Senators Colbeck and Cadell for their motion. We need to investigate and expose the reality of net zero. Let's be honest for a second. Net zero makes net-zero sense when you're using solar panels and wind turbines, which—once again—end up in landfill at the end of their useful life, and batteries that last seven to 10 years, if you're lucky, and then also end up in landfill at the end of their useful life. What is the point of this? Nuclear energy is the answer. It's something I hope all the adults can agree on. It's the best way forward. If you believe in the garbage, lies and misinformation that says 'CO2 is going to kill us all,' I can tell you that it will not. It's absolute garbage.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock was on his feet, but—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I'll go to you, Senator Davey, then I'll go to Senator Pocock. It's unlimited debate.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Deputy President! It's very competitive in this chamber! We know that this Labor government, as they were vying for election when in opposition, went to the Australian people and promised they would do things differently. They promised they would be the government of transparency and openness. We know that they are anything but. We have seen in this chamber time and time again this Labor government run from transparency and scrutiny and absolutely avoid accountability. This simple motion for an inquiry to hear from experts, impacted community members, conservationists and the departmental advisers that have been providing the government advice, which will give transparency to the Australian people about decisions being made, is being repeatedly thwarted. It's happened six times and counting. This will be the seventh time, if they vote against it. It's been thwarted by this government so they can avoid scrutiny. They did the same with the inquiry into COVID after calling, from opposition, for a robust and forensic review of the COVID response. I should know; I was on the COVID select committee.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Those were the days!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>When you were in opposition—thank you, Senator Watt—it was certainly better times, and certainly a more transparent time. But they finally got shamed into setting up the inquiry. However, it had the weakest of all terms of reference, designed to avoid scrutiny. Ironically, it was not even scrutiny of themselves. It would have provided scrutiny of a Liberal-National government, but they limited the terms of reference to protect their state mates and avoid scrutiny of their state mates. Caught out, embarrassed and shamed, they've back-pedalled to slightly expand the terms of reference. But let me make it clear that the terms still explicitly exclude the decisions of state and territory governments from being investigated by the inquiry, and that's something that clearly wasn't explained down the chain of command, because, shockingly, the minister for health, Mr Butler, incorrectly stated this morning that the terms of reference explicitly included examination of those health responses. It was wrong. It was incorrect. The health minister even went on to say that it would be extraordinary to set up an inquiry that did not examine the operation of those measures, not realising that that's exactly what his government did—not just once but twice—when they expanded the terms of reference. We saw another example just today, when, in question time, I asked a question of the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, Minister Watt. He got up to answer the question but could not answer in any coherent way.</para>
<para>He did not know the detail, which is something that is becoming common among this government. It was very clear that the minister did not know or care what impacts the government's policies would have on communities, which is again what we're seeing with their avoidance of this inquiry. And the list goes on and on.</para>
<para>Time and time again we are seeing this government avoid orders of the Senate for the production of documents, and I am not alone in my concerns of that. We've seen representatives from the Greens and representatives from the crossbench call this government to account for failing to produce documents required by this chamber to allow us to do our jobs effectively. We all are calling for transparency, which is why I'm so astounded that the Greens persist in blocking this inquiry with the government.</para>
<para>Let me make it clear: our call for an inquiry isn't just about farmers. Transmission lines, the impacts of transmission lines, the costs of transmission lines—the cost will affect everyone—and the impact of building and constructing those transmission lines, will, yes, impact farmers, but it will also impact our landscapes, flora, fauna and amenity. Indeed, when the New South Wales parliament held an inquiry into this issue, they heard from the Animal Justice Party NSW. That's not a party I am normally prone to agree with, but on this occasion they highlighted the damage that transmission lines could have on 82 species of plants and animals in New South Wales alone. That inquiry heard from environmental activists, national parks representatives, landholders and community members who all raised significant concerns about the transmission lines, how routes are chosen, compensation offered and the impacts on their lives and livelihoods.</para>
<para>We know that these lines will impact on koala habitat. We know that the transmission lines require vast swathes of landscape to be cleared. We know that there are concerns about bushfire risks. We've seen reports in the <inline font-style="italic">West Australian</inline> and other newspapers about volunteer firefighters raising their concerns about the impact of transmission lines and the increased risk of bushfires but also about how to then respond to bushfires: the impact of transmission lines on the capability for aerial firefighting services and the impact of transmission lines on the capability of using other infrastructure and other equipment in and around transmission lines if bushfires occur. I don't understand the logic of those opposite who claim that they want to save the planet but are happy to destroy Australia's environment to do so.</para>
<para>We have brought on this debate time and time again, and we haven't won the vote, obviously, to get an inquiry. There are ever-increasing numbers of people also raising concerns about this issue. Since we commenced our campaign to hold an inquiry, just an inquiry, into transmission lines, we've also seen an increase in protests against renewable projects. I bet the government kind of wishes they'd accepted our proposal for a simple inquiry into transmission lines at the outset, at the beginning of this process, because that might have helped them actually quell what is now becoming an increasing issue for the government.</para>
<para>From Bob Brown and the eagle campaigners in Tasmania to the offshore flotillas of surfers going out from both Wollongong and Newcastle to protest against offshore wind farms, people who are not necessarily conservative, who are certainly not climate deniers or climate change sceptics—in fact, they are some of the most vocal proponents of the need to do something to address climate change—are the very people protesting against renewable projects, and they also have concerns about transmission lines. This is why we need to actually listen. This is why we need an inquiry. I will agree with Senator Babet. We also need to ask the question why are we continually blocking talking about nuclear? But I stray.</para>
<para>This motion is about an inquiry into the impact of transmission lines, how those decisions are made, how the routes are chosen, how communities and landholders are consulted with to bring them on the journey, because it has been appalling so far. Imagine getting home and finding a waterproof envelope stuck to your front door saying 'Your home has been chosen for destruction so we can put in a power pole.' That is effectively what is happening to farmers. They come home to an envelope on their gate saying, 'Lucky You. You have drawn out of the lottery and you are going to have transmission lines criss-crossing your property whether or not you like it.' So is it any wonder with this government's track record that you have even people like a brand-new president of the NFF calling out the Albanese government on their lack of consultation, on their lack of preparedness to work with farmers, landholders and regional communities to develop policy that will actually benefit Australia.</para>
<para>In closing, I will just say: get on board. Let us have this inquiry then you won't have to listen to us every other Tuesday talking about it again and again. Let us have the inquiry. Let us hear from the people who want to be heard and stop avoiding scrutiny and transparency.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Deputy President. It is always good to see you in the chamber. I would like to thank senators Cadell and Colbeck for their concerns about this issue. There are legitimate concerns from landholders, from rural communities, from environmentalists. I have met with and enjoyed engaging with a number of them, both here in Canberra and on trips into regional and New South Wales, but I am very wary of the politics at play with this issue. We have a coalition who had a decade to look into this, to build the kinds of frameworks that we hear them talk about yet we saw nothing of the sort. We saw a total failure of leadership when it came to planning for the transition, to building the social licence, to ensuring that people in regional communities—many of whom have been reliant on fossil fuels—benefit from this transition in a meaningful way, in a long-lasting way, in a way that sets them up. With that in mind, I worked with the member for Indi, Dr Helen Haines, to secure an independent, well resourced and wide-ranging review undertaken by Andrew Dyer, the Australian Energy Infrastructure Commissioner. Andrew Dyer commenced his work in this area in November 2015 as the National Wind Farm Commissioner—a few governments away, I guess.</para>
<para>That has now been expanded from the National Wind Farm Commissioner to the Australian Energy Infrastructure Commissioner on 26 March 2021.</para>
<para>As part of this review, Mr Dyer has so far held 74 meetings and spoken to some 575 people in remote, rural and regional communities, as well as meeting with stakeholders in cities. From Tamworth to Wangaratta, and to Dubbo, Muswellbrook, Ballarat and Brisbane, Andrew and his team are getting out and talking to people on the ground about these issues. They have received over 500 submissions in over 250 online responses, and will provide a final report which will be made public to the government in December. Much of the ground that we have been talking about late into the evening in these motions and debates are being covered by Mr Dyer. The review will consider community attitudes towards renewable energy infrastructure and provide advice on the best way to maximise community engagement and benefit in planning, developing and operating renewable energy infrastructure.</para>
<para>In conducting the review, the Australian Energy Infrastructure Commissioner should have regard to the following: perceived or actual environmental impacts; perceived or actual impacts on agricultural land, including emergency management and fire and biosecurity risks—things that have been raised with me multiple times; and increases in landholder insurance premiums. We know that this is an issue, and it isn't just an issue with transmission lines. If you talk to farmers around the Pilliga, who are having gas pipelines put across their properties, you hear that they're being told at times, 'You're now uninsurable.' At the same time, Santos's plans, should there be a bushfire in the Pilliga, is to evacuate—to get out of there. And who is going to be left fighting these fires? All the farmers who are part of the Rural Fire Service are going to be the ones who have to turn up and fight these fires. These are the things we have to look at.</para>
<para>It will look at the impacts on tourism, and aesthetic and cultural indications—again, these are things we need to consider. There's community engagement and benefit-sharing, including financial, local infrastructure and knowledge-sharing, and any other type of benefit. The AEIC can advise on how to maximise community engagement within the existing regulatory and legislative frameworks, including the National Electricity Law, the National Energy Objectives and the regulatory investment test for transmission. There's a bunch more, and I have enjoyed engaging with Mr Dyer in his role—I found him to be knowledgeable and very passionate about his work. He certainly turns up at estimates as one of a handful who will give you a straight answer and tell you how it is. He's not hiding anything. So I look forward to seeing what his review recommends, because I acknowledge that this is a concern for communities. It's so critical that we get it right; we have to get this right as a country. And we have to act, knowing just how critical this is and the speed at which we're going to have to get this right to really lead the way.</para>
<para>Again, I'll just to touch on the politics of this. I would take it far more seriously if the people who raise concerns about things like transmission lines and turbines had in the past raised the same concerns when we saw the fossil fuel industry putting through pipelines and coal seam gas wells. We've seen Mr Dutton weighing into this, but a search of the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> of the 46th Parliament and also of the 45th Parliament doesn't return any results for Mr Dutton talking about the issue of transmission lines. So I welcome debate on this; I think it's something that needs to be looked into, but I'm very wary of some of the politics in play being used to whip up some of the fear and some of the flat out climate science denial that we've heard from some in this chamber in this debate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I very much welcome Senator Pocock's contribution. I agree with much of what he just had to say. It is unfortunate that this issue has been seized upon by members of the opposition for their political ends. It is a really important issue. I say this as the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry along with being a senator in this chamber.</para>
<para>It is an important issue that we ensure landholders are properly consulted in the development of renewable energy infrastructure, and that is exactly why, as Senator Pocock has said, the government has commissioned a review by Mr Andrew Dyer, the Energy Infrastructure Commissioner of Australia, on these issues. I've actually mentioned this to a number of opposition senators and encouraged them to participate in Mr Dyer's review and encourage concerned communities to participate in Mr Dyer's review. These are exactly the issues that Mr Dyer is looking at with regard to the consultation processes when it comes to renewable energy infrastructure, and I suggest that any opposition senator who is actually sincere in their concerns about this issue would be participating in Mr Dyer's review and would encourage affected and interested communities to do so as well. If opposition senators aren't doing that, that just exposes that they're only pursuing this for their political ends. With that, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be put.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the question be put. A division is required. It will be deferred until tomorrow.</para>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—In respect of the report from the Environment and Communications References Committee into marine invasive species, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Education Amendment (2023 Capital Funding) Regulations 2023</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Disallowance</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Australian Education Amendment (2023 Capital Funding) Regulations 2023, made under the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Education Act 2013</inline>, be disallowed [F2023L01064].</para></quote>
<para>These regulations would increase the capital funding indexation percentage for block grant authorities for non-government schools in 2023, thereby increasing federal funding to capital works for private schools by $21.2 million, up to a total annual sum of $215.7 million. This disallowance would maintain the indexation for capital works for non-government schools at its current rate. This doesn't mean that money is being ripped away from private schools. They would still receive an annual sum of $194 million among numerous other buckets of cash that they have access to. The purpose of this disallowance is simply for the government to prioritise helping our struggling public schools before pouring more money into the private-school system.</para>
<para>Furthermore, we note that there are significant concerns around how block grant authorities distribute these resources, with minimal accountability across block grant authorities leading to some poorly funded Catholic schools being stranded in a system that gives lavishly to private schools for more pools and orchestra pits. Recently, in New South Wales it was reported that two private schools had to pay back more than $23 million in government funding because it turned out that they were turning a profit. It is a total farce that our system allows for these types of things to happen, and that the government can have such little oversight of the goings-on of these schools and the block grant authorities that schools can be making a profit.</para>
<para>It is important as well to really emphasise what money private schools receive. On top of the SRS—and keep in mind that 98 per cent of private schools are overfunded when it comes to the SRS and they get loaded up on a per-student basis—private schools can also add the exorbitant fees that they charge to the money pot. We know that fees have gone up by between 50 per cent and 80 per cent as well as funds such as this one. With the tap never turning off, it's no wonder some school principals decide to indulge in decadent things like plunge pools and new RM Williams uniforms for their students. What's the incentive for them not to? What else does this pot pour into? One of the top Brisbane schools recently flashed its plans to expand with a six-storey building, including an art-science wet space, a library and a dedicated performing arts rehearsal space.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Outrageous!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sure these are wonderful spaces in an amazing learning environment. But that's my problem and why I'm here fighting. When did we stop wanting that for all children so that all students around the country are able to learn in and access beautiful spaces that enrich their education and help broaden their interests? Let's compare that with some of the public schools in this country. One public school in Victoria has 61 demountables—I will say that again: 61 demountables. Another in Melbourne's north-east has 49. This means that instead of building infrastructure governments are saddling state schools with temporary demountables and not anything that's long-term, efficient or appropriate, let alone beautiful and lovely to be in. This means for these students there is no permanent six-storey heritage building with different build-outs. No, instead, they have demountables that get unbearably hot in summer and unbearably cold in winter. I can tell you, having taught in several classrooms like that in Queensland throughout my public school teaching career, that I can confirm that they are absolutely not conducive to young people maximising their learning. I taught in classrooms on the cape that flood every time it rains, and I've taught in classrooms riddled with asbestos that have to be cleared every time there is a bump or a knock on the wall that means they're unsafe.</para>
<para>How can we accept this? How can we ask parent and students to accept this? That is why this motion is so important. It is so critical for us to not shy away from the fights and stickiness in these debates. I'm here because I believe the fight we must be having and that Labor must be having is looking at why some schools can lavish such excess on their students, and why others—kids in public schools—are forced to struggle for the minimum. When did this become the Australian norm? It's completely obvious by now that the system is rigged. The mirage of choice that was pioneered by the Howard and the Gillard governments and other coalition governments has completely poisoned the well of egalitarian schooling in Australia. No longer is it about choice. The true choice is whether or not your parents have the financial choice to send you to a private or a public school.</para>
<para>The biggest determinant of how well a young person does in the education system in this country is their parents' bank balance. And that's a fact.</para>
<para>Instead of expanding and exploring what our public system could be and the ways that it could be shaped differently, we've just ripped that up and we're only dishing out the good stuff to the kids whose families can afford it. This is setting us up to lock an immovable type of inequality into our education system. Instead of broadening the horizons about what we can achieve in our public system, private schools are becoming reliant on the millions and millions of dollars of public money that they expect to receive to keep the wheels turning. While public schools around this country fight for basic amenities, the government continues to pour money into the private sector. We know that public school funding in Australia is well below the OECD average. When do we call this a crisis? Underfunding means one teacher for dozens of kids. It means kids not getting the support that they need. Eighty-five per cent of young people in this country with additional needs are in public schools. It means broken laptops—if you're lucky enough to have them—and out-of-date textbooks, and it is teachers and parents who are making up the shortfall.</para>
<para>Above all, underfunding means kids slipping through the cracks. If we're going to keep wringing our hands about the outcomes of our students and how they continue to fall, then we need to fund our public schools to the bare minimum. Not funding our public schools to 100 per cent of the SRS means failing. It means not setting those kids up for success, and it means widening inequality in this country. That's why I moved this disallowance, and that's why I ask that the Senate support this motion and that the government work with us to ensure that public schools are not falling down around students' heads or riddled with asbestos or leaking or flooding before giving even more money to private schools.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak against this disallowance motion. At the outset, I want to place on the record that I deeply respect Senator Allman-Payne's commitment to education during her career and have no doubt that the students who had the privilege of being in her class benefited from her commitment to education. I put that on the record.</para>
<para>The Greens have an ideological obsession against anything which is in the private sector. It doesn't matter what it is, whether it is private health insurance or non-government schools; the Greens have an ideological obsession against it. They have an ideological obsession against private education, against private health insurance, against the private sector, and a complete lack of understanding that Australia has benefited—greatly benefited—from the fact that we have both a public and private education sphere and a public and private health insurance sector. We have greatly, greatly benefited from that balance between the public and the private sectors. But, again and again, they come into this place with their ideological, philosophical obsessions against what has worked well in practice in terms of providing the optimum outcomes for the optimum number of Australians. And this is just another example.</para>
<para>So let me put on the record: I am very happy the Greens have moved this motion because it will provide me an opportunity between now and the next federal election to advise all those families in the Green-held seats of Ryan, Brisbane and Griffith in South-East Queensland that the Greens despise the fact that they save and scrimp and do everything they possibly can to provide their children with the best educational outcomes that they perceive should be provided to them.</para>
<para>I'll provide those parents with every single opportunity to understand that the Greens oppose their right to send their children to a non-government school. I'll make sure I remind them from this day to the next election. They oppose private health insurance and they oppose non-government education in non-government-owned schools, and I'll be reminding those families in those Green held seats in the south-east corner of Queensland.</para>
<para>The second point I want to make in relation to this disallowance motion is that it shows a complete misunderstanding of what is happening with capital construction costs. Capital construction costs have absolutely gone through the roof across this whole country, so the capital cost of building a new school building or facility to enhance the capital services and the environment for students going to non-government schools has gone through the roof. That is the reality, and those sitting on the other side of the chamber are absolutely part of the reason for that, because they took the only handbrake off the CFMMEU construction division. That handbrake was the Australian Building and Construction Commission. So now the CFMMEU is there running just about every single construction site at every single school just about across the whole of Australia, and you can add 30 per cent to the capital cost of constructing any public infrastructure. That is the whole reason why the government had to institute the so-called 90-day review of infrastructure projects, which has blown out by a further 100 days. It's because construction costs in this country have absolutely gone through the roof.</para>
<para>So let's call out this disallowance motion for what it is. It is an expression of the ideological contempt that the Greens political party has for non-government-owned schools. It's their ideological obsession—one of many—against anything in the private sector. They do not respect the sacrifices made by Australian parents to send their children to schools of their choice. Whether it be a religious institution providing a religious based education or any other sort of school in the non-government sector, that is simply not respected by the Australian Greens. So, between now and the next federal election, I look forward to reminding people living in the Queensland federal seats of Ryan, Brisbane and Griffith, including parents who are saving to send their children to non-government schools in those seats—there are many great secondary schools and primary schools in the non-government sector in those three Greens seats—that the Greens have an ideological obsession against the manifestation of their choice to send their children to a school of their choosing. I'll be looking forward to reminding people, including parents, of that fact between now and the next federal election.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will be opposing this disallowance motion. The Capital Grants Program provides funding for non-government schools to improve capital infrastructure where they otherwise may not have access to sufficient capital resources. This program has had long-term bipartisan support.</para>
<para>Capital Grants Program funding is allocated to schools according to identified student need. Indexation of that funding ensures that the value of the capital program is maintained over time. The Australian government is committed to working with the states and territories to get every school to 100 per cent of its fair funding level, and that remains the case. We are obviously strong supporters of public education, and I say that as someone who was educated in public education. We want to see every school get to 100 per cent of its fair funding level, but we need to recognise the choice that many parents make, as is their right, to have their kids educated in a non-government school, and that is one of the reasons for our support for this Capital Grants Program.</para>
<para>We've committed $275.2 million over two years under the Schools Upgrade Fund, and we've already delivered $50 million, under round 1, to more than 1,300 schools. They are schools like Indooroopilly State School in the electorate of Ryan, held by a Greens MP, which received $25,000 for shade structures, and St Joseph's, again in the electorate of Ryan, which received $25,000 for repairs and facility maintenance. If we look at Griffith, also held by a Greens MP, we see that St Martin's and St Laurence's College have received funding through this program. St Martin's received $6,000 for air purification and St Laurence's received $25,000 for a shade structure. Round 2 of the Schools Upgrade Fund is providing $215.8 million for government schools to invest in new facilities, major refurbishments and other capital upgrades. Expressions of interest are now open, and I encourage public schools from across the country to apply to participate. This is the same amount of capital funding as we've provided to non-government schools in 2023.</para>
<para>We need to be very clear that this disallowance motion from the Greens would have the effect of stripping funding from Catholic schools in Greens-held electorates—schools like St Martin's and St Laurence's in the Greens-held electorate of Griffith and St Joseph's in the Greens-held electorate of Ryan. I'm sure there are many other similar examples in the Greens-held electorate of Brisbane. I wonder whether those Greens MPs—Mr Bates, Mr Chandler-Mather and Ms Watson-Brown—are being honest with their constituents, many of whom decided to vote Greens. I wonder if those Greens MPs are being honest about their agenda to strip funding from Catholic schools like the ones I've just mentioned. I think the Greens owe it to their constituents to be honest about their plans to strip capital funding from those schools.</para>
<para>Nothing in what we are putting forward is about taking money away from public schools. Labor governments have always been strong supporters of funding for public education, and I say that as someone who's personally committed to public education. But we do recognise that many parents have good reasons for choosing non-government schooling for their kids. Those schools should not be subject to ideological campaigns by the Greens that seek to remove that funding. I challenge Mr Chandler-Mather, Mr Bates and Ms Watson-Brown to go and face those schools and talk to them about their plans to strip the schools' capital funding because of the Greens' ideological beliefs. That's why we will be opposing this disallowance motion.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can't support this disallowance motion either. Capital funding under the Australian Education Act is provided to block grant authorities, something that's been happening since 2014. Those authorities disperse money to either Catholic schools or independent schools, but the umbrella of independent schools doesn't just cover private schools for wealthy families. It includes independent schools, special assistance schools and schools for Indigenous students. In Tassie, these include Giant Steps Tasmania, an independent special school in Deloraine for children on the autism spectrum. There are also indie schools in Burnie, Devonport and Glenorchy. Indie schools are alternative kinds of schools for kids who don't learn best in traditional learning environments. They fill a really important gap in our education system, and I think they're amazing. I wish my son had had a chance to go to an indie school program when he was in high school.</para>
<para>I get what the Greens are trying to do here. They're trying to make sure private schools with rich kids aren't better off than public schools. It's something I agree with; education should be as equitable as possible. But this isn't the way to do it, I'm sorry. This would also punish those schools that are applying for grants to look after the most vulnerable kids in the community, the kids that require special care.</para>
<para>The problem I have with the grants is that, for the last four years at least, Giant Steps Tasmania and the special assistance schools that help our most vulnerable students have not received any of this funding. Maybe they didn't apply. If they didn't, my message to them would be to give it a go. I don't think cashed-up private schools need to be given more taxpayer money, but I don't think we should deny independent schools like Giant Steps Tasmania the chance to get a piece of the pie either. That's why I won't be supporting this disallowance motion.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Allman-Payne be agreed to. A division is required. As the division has been called after 6.30 pm, it will be held tomorrow.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>70</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment Protection (Sea Dumping) Amendment (Using New Technologies to Fight Climate Change) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7052" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Environment Protection (Sea Dumping) Amendment (Using New Technologies to Fight Climate Change) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>70</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we know, this legislation has been stitched up by Santos and the collusion of the Labor and Liberal parties. I just want to make sure, before we move to more detailed questioning by Senator Whish-Wilson, that the Senate is aware of that fact.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I'd like to look at some of the details of how this might play out. I'm interested in the government's view on carbon dioxide emissions that are shipped to another country for undersea storage. I'm guessing the view of the government is that they are then off Australia's books, but what happens if some of those CO2 emissions then escape or are let out and the whole amount isn't delivered? On whose books is that reflected, or is it, because it's in the ocean, 'play on'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, thank you for bearing with me and allowing me to find the right page. I think, Senator Pocock, the answer to your question is that it depends. We are passing a piece of legislation here that sets up, really, the framework by which an agreement might be made with another country to allow transborder movement of carbon dioxide.</para>
<para>The legislation requires us to observe the London protocol, and the London protocol requires us to have a bilateral agreement in place between those two countries before any permit could be granted. So the details and the status of those agreements or arrangements would be decided between the exporting and receiving countries on a case-by-case basis. It would address matters that would include, but not be limited to, responsibility for maintaining the sequestered carbon dioxide and any emissions, the ability of countries to accurately monitor emissions and any leakage from transport or storage.</para>
<para>In relation to the specific question I think you're asking about how carbon accounting would occur, any release of carbon dioxide throughout the capture, transport, injection and storage phase would need to be accounted for under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change international emissions reporting frameworks, and they would be included in the national emissions inventory of the country in which they occur.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the government undertaken a risk assessment of potential liabilities for Australian taxpayers in the case where the export of CO2 from Australia to a third-party country results in environmental or climate harm? We saw what happened with the 2009 Montara oil and gas spill. We saw the harm caused to not only our coastline and marine environment but also those of our neighbours in Indonesia, and we saw the subsequent class action—an international claim against Australia for transboundary harm. Surely this legislation opens up the door for those sorts of risks? Has that assessment been undertaken by either of the departments that are working on this bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, the short answer to that question is, 'At this stage, no,' because, as I was indicating to you, this is merely the first legislative step in establishing a framework within which any decision could be taken. There are at least two important decisions that would need to be taken before any export was permitted. The first is that a bilateral agreement of some kind would need to be established between Australia and a country to which an export might take place. The second thing would be to then assess an application for a permit under the protocol for such an export. In assessing a permit, the department would utilise the London protocol assessment framework.</para>
<para>The environmental impact assessment must include but is not limited to a long-term management plan, a geological assessment and marine characterisation of the disposal site, an impact and risk assessment, a mitigation and remediation plan, a description of potential impacts on any matters of national environmental significance, a waste prevention audit, waste management options, chemical and physical properties of the carbon dioxide, an assessment of potential effects, and monitoring and risk management. So, Senator Pocock, you are right to point to the possibility of risks arising. That's why this framework matters, because it puts in place the legislative basis that would allow Australia to assess a project of this kind in a way that is consistent with the international agreement.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You talk about this opening, setting the ground work for, bilateral agreements. Has Timor-Leste signed up to the London protocol?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is extraordinary that we are here with this legislation. The government is telling us we need this to better regulate so we can enter into bilateral agreements and uphold the highest standards of all sorts of details to be worked out down the track, with a 'she will be right, trust us' attitude. We have the opposition who have basically checked out on this. They're not acting like an opposition when it comes to this bill. They are usually concerned about seeing details, knowing about consultation. We heard earlier the minister can't tell us who she met with in the last three months on this bill. It seems like there's been no meaningful engagement on it.</para>
<para>What is happening in the Senate on this bill is, frankly, an insult to Australians. The major parties are on a unity ticket when it comes to facilitating the expansion of the fossil fuel industry. We will hear the government argue against it, that it is not what is happening with these emerging technologies we need to regulate well. Yet there are amendments from the crossbench that say, 'If that is the case, we will take you on your word.' Rule out facilitating the expansion of the fossil fuel industry. We will hear the government argue against it and say, 'No, that is not what is happening. We have all these emerging technologies that we really need to regulate well.' We have amendments from the cross bench that say, 'Okay, if that is the case, we will take you on your word. Rule out facilitating the expansion of the fossil fuel industry.' But no, we can't do that. We couldn't possibly compromise Santos or Woodside. You have to ask the question: what is happening in Australia in 2023 when we have the major parties acting like this? Minister, given the Labor Party doesn't take donations from big tobacco because of the harm on communities, on society, why do you still take donations from fossil fuel companies?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The conclusions that you arrived at in your very long preamble to the question really don't seem to be responsive to the information that's been provided to you in this stage of the debate. Earlier in the day, you made a series of propositions about the ruinous nature of this legislation. I explained to you at that time that the government considers that the transition to net zero is a challenging one that will require all of the tools available to us in order to minimise emissions of carbon dioxide and equivalent into the atmosphere. That is confirmed by all of the authoritative international information we have about credible pathways to net zero, including the International Energy Agency's assessments and other similar assessments.</para>
<para>I also said to you that the government considers that carbon capture and storage technology will need to stand on its own two feet in its commercial viability. Last year the government took a series of budget decisions to divert subsidies that had been directed towards commercial-scale carbon capture and storage by the previous government towards other government priorities. These are projects that will need to make commercial sense for the proponents.</para>
<para>In the event that a proponent decides that the permanent sequestration of carbon dioxide and the costs associated with that make sense in the context of their project, it is important that there be a regulatory framework in place to manage that.</para>
<para>You asked whether or not Timor-Leste is a party to the London protocol, and I indicated to you that it is not. I can add to my answer—I was actually expecting a follow-up question, so I kept it brief—by explaining to you that, as a contracting party to the London protocol, Australia is required to ensure the same level of requirement for domestic sequestration of carbon dioxide—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. The time for this debate has expired.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>72</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Israel</title>
          <page.no>72</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise this evening to put on the record some remarks in relation to the very sad conflict in the Middle East and some of the effects it is having on our community in Australia and most particularly in my state of New South Wales. It was a month ago that we woke to the dreadful images of Hamas attacking Israel, murdering innocent civilians and then kidnapping hundreds of Israelis. This has had a profound impact on the community in Australia more broadly, but it has a particular impact on the Jewish community and also, of course, on the Muslim community in Sydney and elsewhere in New South Wales.</para>
<para>The position that Australia has taken has been the right position: to support Israel in fighting Hamas. But I understand that there has been a very significant level of hurt in how this debate has played out and that there have been instances which could have been managed better in terms of the communication of how this undertaking will be progressed. We're talking about human life here, and there has been much suffering on both sides of the conflict in Gaza. Australia's position should always be to condemn all forms of terrorism and to condemn the loss of civilian life, because, of course, we are committed as a responsible global citizen to ultimately getting to a two state solution with Israel and Palestine. I believe that the statement that the former prime ministers made—which set out their very clear position of understanding and support for the Jewish community, which feels under great stress at the moment—was timely and very well expressed. That statement also was very deliberate in that it made mention of the very strong feelings that I know that many parts of the Sydney Muslim community have about the impact and the treatment of Palestinian people at this time, because, of course, as Australians, we care about all citizens and we value the life of an Israeli child in exactly the same way that we regard the value of the life of a Palestinian child. That is why we are committed to a two state solution.</para>
<para>There has been a shocking outbreak of Islamophobia and antisemitism in this debate, and this is a time for leadership. It is a time for all our leaders to try and bring our different groups together, because here in Australia we are the most successful multicultural society on Earth, and at the moment it feels like that is fraying. Our leaders need to make a much stronger effort to bring different groups together and to speak out when wrongs happen.</para>
<para>I feel that, with the recent outbreak of antisemitism in Sydney, where you've seen Hitler and Netanyahu faces and you've seen swastikas inscribed on various pieces of public infrastructure, that needs to be investigated and people need to be prosecuted under the laws of the state.</para>
<para>Equally, political leaders have to be very careful about how they engage in this debate. The Greens political particularly released a statement which depicted Israel as no longer existing. It is just so important that we take a moment to reflect on the humanity here, that we take all steps that we can to engage carefully with all parts of our community, because Australia is balanced and must always be a balanced country. We must look after all of our communities. We are supportive of the Palestinian people. We are supportive of the Israeli people. We support Israel. We do not support Hamas. We must always commit ourselves to working as a collaborative international citizen towards the long-held goal of a two-state solution. That is really important, and we need to give people hope that that is still something that we believe is achievable.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania State Emergency Service</title>
          <page.no>72</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the inherent chaos of an emergency, there is one constant, reassuring presence that we can all rely on: the state emergency services. The volunteers who give up their time to respond to emergencies as members of the SES are often the first point of contact many people have when engulfed in the crisis unfolding around them. They are the first responders who help you fix your roof when storms rip the tiles from your house. They are often the first people you see in the aftermath of a car crash or supporting firefighters during an emergency evacuation. The SES are often the unsung heroes of an emergency: the traffic controllers and the sandbaggers. However, in regional communities, like much of my home state of Tasmania, they can be so much more.</para>
<para>Living in regional areas means the SES are often the first responders. They are trained in emergency response and often the first on the scene of so many critical incidents. Being a first responder in a small community carries its own set of mental risks, like the fear that you may know the person who is injured or whose house is in the direct line of a bushfire, which is why people who volunteer for the SES in small communities deserve recognition for the volunteer work that they do.</para>
<para>On that note, the Northern Midlands SES Unit, based in northern Tasmania, recently awarded six new life memberships of their organisation, and I wanted to take the opportunity to highlight their achievements and commitment to their communities. David Oakely, 82, is one of the founding members of the Northern Midlands SES Unit and is still an active member 37 years on. He said he remembers vividly the first time he was called upon to use the jaws of life to cut open a car that had crashed in the region. At that time, the jaws functioned like the pump on a blow-up mattress, and David remembers the urgency as he pumped the jaws to try to cut through the car and save the boy trapped in the back seat. But David's achievements didn't stop there. He and two other members who also received life membership, Graeme McGee and Bevis Perkins, successfully lobbied the Tasmanian government of the day to separate road rescue services from Ambulance Tasmania, making a positive impact to the services. The trio formed the Campbelltown SES and remained active members of the SES community. Graeme has served 25 years with the Northern Midlands SES, and Bevis served 27 years before he died in 2012.</para>
<para>While its important to celebrate their frontline work, I think it's equally important to celebrate the people who've been committed to the organisation's functioning—people like Hamish Wellard and Rob Thomas. The pair have given to the SES 17 and 15 years respectively, and both were awarded life memberships for their commitment to the growth of the SES unit. Hamish lives only 50 metres from the SES shed, so he's often the first to arrive. Hamish was also integral in building the minitruck mascot used for fundraising. Similarly, Rob secured a government grant to extend the shed facilities, both adding great value to their SES facilities. These examples are the type of work SES volunteers do every day without payment or recognition. They do it because it's the right thing to do for their communities.</para>
<para>While I have focused on the Northern Midlands SES Unit today, I want to acknowledge the work done by all SES volunteers across Tasmania and the country.</para>
<para>We should always remember the contribution SES volunteers make to our communities and how important they are to emergency management. Without them, the hard work of the first responders, firefighters, police and ambulance would be hugely diminished. Thank you to David, Graeme, Rob, Peter, Hamish and Bevis. But, more broadly, thank you to all SES volunteers across Australia. We can never repay you for the hard work and kindness you show to all of us who find ourselves in an emergency.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Women's Economic Security</title>
          <page.no>73</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today marks one year since Senator Cash declared that the government's secure jobs, better pay legislation would close down Australia. It's been 12 months, and I'm proud to say that Australia is well and truly still open. The sun is still coming up. The sky hasn't fallen in. In fact, unemployment is at historic lows. There have been over half a million jobs created since the Albanese Labor government was elected. This is the most jobs created in the first term of any government on record, and we're only 18 months in. Under Labor, wages are growing at their highest rate in over 10 years, and we inherited an industrial relations system that was broken, outdated and based on an economy that just doesn't exist anymore. It was a system that didn't deliver for employers or employees.</para>
<para>Last year, Senator Cash predicted that this legislation would send Australia back to the 1970s. Well, we haven't time travelled, despite the best efforts of those opposite to actually send us back not to the 1970s but to the 1950s while they were in office! In fact, we are putting Australian women at the heart of our jobs plan and at the heart of our economic plan. When the secure jobs, better pay legislation passed the parliament, it put respect for women workers at the heart of our workplace laws, after a decade of low wages as a deliberate design feature of the economic policy of the previous government. There was a race to the bottom on wages and conditions across some of our most essential sectors, like our care economy, which faces unprecedented workforce shortages, with dedicated, highly skilled early childhood educators having left the sector because they simply couldn't afford to stay. It was educators who stood up for these important laws and told their stories to us here in parliament about how much they love their work and how hard it is to continue, because, as we all know, love just doesn't pay the rent. This is a sector that is dominated by women. The secure jobs, better pay legislation paved the way for multi-employer bargaining, which is now being used by educators to take their case to the Fair Work Commission. They are standing up for the professional wages that they deserve—wages that truly reflect the value of their work in educating future generations.</para>
<para>This legislation is a step towards closing the gender pay gap in this country—a gap that is still at 13 per cent for millions of working women. I will note that this legislation and our policies for economic equality have brought this down from nearly 19 per cent under the previous government. But that should come as no surprise, because of course you would struggle to think of a single policy for women from the previous government. Upgrading highways to help make sure women get to hospital in time to give birth was, apparently, one of their best economic policies for women. They were proposing to deal with family violence by letting women raid their own super to get out of abusive relationships. They were telling women protesting about sexual violence that they were lucky not to be shot. They had a previous leader who could only understand sexual assault as 'a father of daughters'. This is what you'd expect from a party that has only gone backwards on representation for women in this parliament.</para>
<para>On this side of the chamber, we're not only investing in Australian women; we are a government of women. I am incredibly proud to be a part of the first Australian majority-women government. We are 55 out of 104 caucus members. We know that governments make better decisions when they better reflect the communities they serve, and we are delivering for Australian women. That's why we've funded a much-needed 15 per cent pay rise for aged-care workers, who are mainly women. We're supporting workforce participation with a historic expansion of paid parental leave and by making early childhood education free for the vast majority of families. We will continue to stand up for the working women of this nation.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicare</title>
          <page.no>74</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One of the good things to come out of COVID was telehealth. Telehealth has been a game changer for Tasmanians. You used to hear stories about people driving hours to get an appointment, meaning they had to miss a day or so of work—not to mention getting on a plane and travelling to Melbourne or Sydney with a sick kid just for a one-hour doctor's appointment. Now people can talk to specialists from the comfort of their home, and get a treatment plan carried out by doctors in Tassie. It costs an arm and a leg to see a specialist, but you can usually count on the Medicare rebate to take the sting out of it.</para>
<para>That could be about to change. The Medicare Benefits Schedule Review Advisory Committee recently recommended axing Medicare rebates for initial consults with a specialist via telehealth. If it's a specialist you've seen before, that's fine; but if it's the first time you're seeing a +specialist, the committee is saying you shouldn't get a rebate. This doesn't just apply to a cardiologist or an orthopaedic surgeon; it applies to an appointment with a psychiatrist too. Getting rid of these Medicare rebates will disproportionately affect Tasmanians. People in inner-city Melbourne, Sydney and Canberra with access to specialists will be fine, but Tasmanians don't have the same access to health care that mainlanders do. In Tasmania you can be waiting months or years for an appointment with a specialist.</para>
<para>Last year, Tasmanians were twice as likely as their mainland counterparts to claim the Medicare rebate for an initial psychiatry appointment via telehealth. We rely on telehealth to see a psychiatrist more than people in any other state or territory. The majority of people who need it most are young, and most are young women. One of my constituents was in this boat. She needed an appointment with a psychiatrist for a potential medical diagnosis. She was initially referred to a psychiatrist in Tasmania but was told there was a 12-month waiting list. She got a second referral to access a psychiatrist on the mainland via telehealth and had an appointment—and, importantly, a diagnosis—within three weeks. A Tassie girl can't get an appointment at home but she can get one in Sydney via telehealth. That's sad. But here's the kicker: the telehealth appointment had cost the young woman almost $1,000 up-front. She got just under half of that back from Medicare.</para>
<para>For most people in Tassie, paying that kind of money up-front is unthinkable. Some people are never going to be able to pay that—they just won't go to the appointment. Some people might be able to borrow a few hundred dollars here or there, knowing they can pay the money back once the rebate comes in. But these people now face a difficult choice of paying a grand to get an appointment in three weeks, with no rebate, or waiting 12 months to see a specialist in Tassie and get some of that cash back. I think that's bloody wrong.</para>
<para>By the time you go to a specialist you're already in the thick of it. You need help and you need it quickly. If we get rid of Medicare rebates for these initial telehealth consults then we're telling people that you can only get immediate help if you can afford it. If you can stump up a grand to see someone in three weeks, great. If you can't, you sit on the waiting list for a face-to-face appointment and hope that nothing bad happens in that time. Access to health care shouldn't depend on your bank account balance. The fact that it costs a grand to see a specialist is a whole other problem that I'm not even going to get into today.</para>
<para>Getting rid of Medicare rebates for initial appointments via telehealth will put help even further out of reach for everyday Tasmanians. Right now this is just a recommendation and it's not set in stone. I get that not everything can be done on telehealth. If you've got a weird rash on your arm, it's a bit hard for a doctor to see what's going on through a bad internet connection. But we're not talking about weird rashes. We're talking about things like psychiatrist appointments for acute mental health problems. If you're depressed, or even suicidal, and you summon the energy to book an appointment with someone that can help, that's something we should be patting you on the back for. But if you're in Tasmania and you're told to wait 12 months, that's a lifetime away and that could be a death sentence. Don't make that harder. Don't make it further out of reach. The ones who need it the most are the ones who can afford it the least. They deserve help as much as any wealthy Sydneysider does.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade Unions</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the words of our national anthem:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We've golden soil and wealth for toil,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Our home is girt by sea.</para></quote>
<para>Australia by geographical favour is an island nation and is naturally positioned to be a great trading country. We carry over 99 per cent of our traded goods by sea, which makes shipping an essential piece in our 24/7 economy, and our ports are a central gateway to that economy. Every day at ports across our country, ships arrive at our terminals, picking up our mighty export product that the wealth of our country is built upon. Those ships take those products to ports in places across the world. On the other hand, goods such as medical supplies, clothes, food, retail products and building materials arrive on our shore through our ports. Trucks and trains then carry the baton of the great freight task, transporting goods from ports to every corner of our vast country. Without shipping and ports, Australia stops.</para>
<para>Right throughout the country cost-of-living pressures are straining family budgets and hurting businesses. In the context of economic headwinds like these, even the smallest of economic shocks have a ripple effect. This is exactly what is happening at ports in Fremantle, Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane right now as industrial action has stalled the movement of goods at DP World terminals. Thanks to the pro-union agenda of the Albanese Labor government, the CFMMEU have been able to hold our critical supply chains to ransom for over a month now, causing ships to sit dormant off our coastline. Processing delays have blown out from the usual two days to over eight days, a 300 per cent increase. This compounds even more for a ship that travels from Brisbane to Sydney to Melbourne and then on to Fremantle, which means an extra 24 days of delays. The economic impact of this is significant, and modelling indicates it is taking an economic hit of $201 million per day—over $200 million a day. Ultimately, the cost trickles all the way from the shipping liner to the Australian consumer, as businesses are forced to pay this cost and to pass that cost on to everyday Australian consumers.</para>
<para>Meanwhile, the CFMMEU stubbornly refuses to come back to the negotiations. The union shows no signs of letting up in the lead-up to Christmas. Just this week the CFMMEU have indicated that they will continue to strike until 20 November. As the holiday season approaches, buyer will begin to notice their purchases won't be showing up on time. Retailer will be low on stock, summer renovators will be short on building materials and businesses will bear the brunt at the busiest time of the year. There will be delays in the trade market across a raft of portfolio areas of this Albanese government, and it seems that Christmas 2023 will be no exception. This is the environment that the Albanese government have created with their pro-union agenda. Unions like the CFMMEU, the MUA and the ACTU feel emboldened by a weak government that facilitates their demands and that bows to their pressures. The government feels the need to repay union favours, and, as a consequence, unions can run rampant on our docks and right through our domestic supply chain.</para>
<para>The rolling strikes at our ports are a worrying sign of things to come, and the introduction of multi-employer bargaining will be very, very bad news for Australia's supply chain. At a time of economic hardship and stubborn inflation, the government should be working in the interests of everyday Australians who've had to bear the brunt of another mortgage increase that was announced today and make our ports more productive, reliable and efficient. But under the Albanese Labor government all we see is delay, and that is costing the Australian consumer every day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the millions of Australians who have been hit with yet another interest rate rise today—No. 12 since Labor was elected. If you have a $750,000 mortgage, you're now paying an extra $24,000 per year, and the Reserve Bank has warned of even more rises to come.</para>
<para>Australia today has higher inflation than nearly every major advanced economy in the world, and there's no light at the end of this dark tunnel because Labor has no plan to fight inflation and rising interest rates. The fact is that Labor's rubbish short-term vote-buying, Labor's record immigration and Labor's suicidal rush to net zero are directly responsible for this inflation and the pain it's causing the Australian people. Labor has increased government spending by almost $200 billion. About $20 billion of this was cost-of-living relief that has pretty much already been overtaken by inflation. It included some of the biggest rises in pensions and unemployment benefits we have ever seen. Billions more have gone to child care, Medicare, rent assistance and an increased single parenting payment.</para>
<para>Australians struggling with the cost of living would, understandably, accept these handouts, with Labor banking their votes for the next election. It is vote-buying, plain and simple. It's also robbing Peter to pay Paul. This short-term relief will mean greater pain in the long term. That $200 billion of additional spending has to come from somewhere; spending has to be cut in other areas, or taxes have to go up—or the money must be borrowed. Labor loves to borrow: our gross federal debt is approaching a trillion dollars. It just goes up, and up and up while Labor and the coalition refuse to do the hard work to pay down the debt. Soon we'll be paying more than $32 billion a year in interest on this debt. That's $32 billion that won't be put towards a single road, school or hospital. It will just go to creditors, like central banks. Ultimately, every Australian for generations will pay for it with higher taxes.</para>
<para>We already have the new productivity commissioner and the International Monetary Fund calling for an increase in the GST, which will make virtually all goods and services in Australia cost more—effectively by another five per cent or more. And that's on top of rising inflation. I don't know the economists who are advising the Prime Minister, but, as I said in my maiden speech in the other place, all those years ago, I wouldn't even let one of them handle my grocery shopping! Other economists are warning increasingly of the growing danger posed by Labor's record immigration. It is driving more inflation, suppressing wage growth and, of course, making our housing and rental crisis much worse than they should be or need be. We don't have enough homes for the people who are already here, and Labor plans to bring another 1.5 million people here in the next two to three years. This is making rentals unaffordable, even for people on comfortable incomes, and the latest interest-rate rise will drive them up further.</para>
<para>Finally, Labor—with the Greens tail wagging the government dog—is rushing ahead with unrealistic renewables targets and emissions reductions. This is the art of chasing the votes of more impressionable and younger Australians who have been indoctrinated into the climate change cult, believing that the planet is doomed unless Australia reduces its one per cent share of global emissions. Both parties of government do this; they sacrifice much-needed long-term reform for short-term political gain. They're basically incapable of thinking and planning beyond the next election. It is unsustainable and it can't go on. But it will go on as long as Australians keep on voting for these clowns, based on handouts and transitory issues that, ultimately, do not contribute to building a prosperous nation and a strong economy.</para>
<para>Your Prime Minister is certainly aware of this, but I tell you that he doesn't care. That's evidenced by the way he has run this country since his election. When his time in the job is over he will get a golden parachute and a staffed office for life. But that's okay—Australians, you will keep struggling.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Western Australia: Arts</title>
          <page.no>76</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In my community of Boorloo Perth there is an arts scene that has given Australia some of the most exciting artists of the last few decades. Just north of the CBD is the Pickle District, a thriving arts hub that houses co-working spaces, photography studios, art galleries and design studios all benefiting from being very short distances from each other and adding to the character of the area. The Pickle District is a place that encourages raw community growth and collective action. The district is unique as a neighbourhood of innovative and imaginative minds with a common vision to enable the arts industry to thrive. It leads and creates places of activation and development through engaging, organising and empowering local residents and businesses to continue exploring our industrial and open nature to find a way to create a more sustainable, diverse and inclusive place to live, work and play.</para>
<para>Our arts community is always worth protecting and in Perth it is no different. We are already seeing the signs that the interests of big business and developers might be put ahead of protecting the very thing that makes our city and this space so unique. Last year plans were announced for a $25 million development that will see among other things a new Bunnings go into the district. It does not seem to matter to the proponents that there are two other Bunnings in very close proximity to the location already. This is part of a wider trend across the area, where we are seeing greenfield developments that help big businesses but don't work for the community.</para>
<para>This year, the Greens have knocked on thousands of doors across Perth and the things that the community have shared with us are very clear. They are goals which our Greens movement are wonderfully aligned with. They have shared with us the need and their desire to see affordable and accessible housing, and real solutions to the rental crisis that that community and so many others are experiencing. They want us to protect, support and grow our arts community, not push it out so something like a Bunnings can get yet another location in the inner city. And they want real action on climate change because our city is at the forefront of an even greater accelerating climate crisis than we have ever seen before. We are seeing bushfires put homes and lives in danger across Perth's south-eastern suburbs, and the sight of the city covered in smoke has become, quite frankly, far too common.</para>
<para>Western Australia is a beautiful place and Perth is the most exciting city in the country. I am sure not a single person in this place would disagree with me on that statement. It deserves representation that shares its community vision, not just the vision of those obsessed with maintaining a status quo. I am thrilled to be able to say that it now has that representation because the Greens working together with the community have enabled the election of the first-ever openly Greens councillor for the City of Vincent, the first Greens councillor in the history of state of Western Australia. This milestone has been reached because the community are sick and tired of their needs and their priorities being swamped by the needs of big businesses that have bought favour with the major parties.</para>
<para>Our arts sector is just one example of a community being massively underserved by the current government. The Greens want to see increased funding for local art and to protect places like the Pickle District that make our state so special. I want to congratulate Sophie Greer and the campaign team that took on the vested political interests of WA's local government structures and elected a transparently Green member of parliament for the first time in the history of this state, bringing transparency and accountability to our local government system. Well done to all of you. It is an incredible achievement.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Amagula, Mr T</title>
          <page.no>77</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In our First Nations acknowledgement of country, we often hear reference to emerging leaders. Last week, people came together across the Groote Eylandt archipelago and the Northern Territory to farewell a man who was actively transitioning from emerging leader to senior spokesperson and leader for his people. His family have given consent for us to refer to him as Mr T Amagula, a well-known name to many Territorians and increasingly more Australians. Mr Amagula was a youthful 52 years of age, with his influence and leadership steadily building as deputy chair of the Anindilyakwa Land Council. Prior to this, Mr Amagula had already established a reputation as an energetic, thoughtful and well-grounded man of his people.</para>
<para>Mr Amagula established an early reputation for leadership through his work with the Dhimurru Corporation, a trendsetting group of rangers working in North-East Arnhem Land. He then built on that experience to help establish the acclaimed Anindilyakwa Land & Sea Rangers program on Groote Eylandt. He had a passion for workplace development and developing pathways to Indigenous employment through his work with the Gumatj Gulkula Regional Training Centre in Gove and later as the workforce development officer for the Anindilyakwa Land Council. Mr Amagula was also very involved in cultural heritage issues, a key negotiator for the repatriation of ancestral remains from Washington and the Czech Republic. He carried out that work with solemn responsibility on behalf of the Anindilyakwa people, work that was greatly appreciated by families on Groote Eylandt. Mr Amagula also served on the board of the Groote Eylandt Aboriginal Trust, on the board of the Northern Territory Aboriginal Areas Protection Authority and as the deputy chair of Miwatj Health in North-East Arnhem Land. Most recently, he also joined the board of the newly established Aboriginal Sea Company Ltd and Northern Territory Aboriginal Investment Corporation.</para>
<para>At home, he was actively involved in the local decision-making group, establishing agreements with government across a range of issues affecting his home communities. This included establishment of a new Anindilyakwa local government authority and a new approach to school based education on Groote Eylandt. Mr Amagula was passionate about youth development and juvenile diversion programs, and he was a key contributor to successful youth programs reducing repeat offending and incarceration of Groote Eylandt's young people. The Groote Eylandt community has seen crime levels decrease from 346 offences, recorded in 2018-19, to 17 offences, recorded by local police in 2021-22. It is people and leaders like Mr Amagula who are showing a different way.</para>
<para>I'd also like to give special recognition to him and to his family for his outstanding work on the Voice referendum and on the engagement group that assisted to give advice to our government on the best ways forward that he could see, using from his own examples with his families and kinship groups in the Groote Archipelago. This was important work for him and an opportunity for him to work closely with First Nations leaders from across the country on crafting the question for the referendum. Many Territorians are deeply mourning his loss. I certainly am one of them, and I pass on my deepest condolences to all his friends and families. I'd just reach out and say to them: thank you so much for the love of Mr T Amagula. Thank you for all of the people who worked to try to achieve a better way of life, not only for his own family and kinship group but for Territorians, and to give that advice at the highest of levels, to try to encourage us to find a better way and to do so in a way that would keep people together and bring people together in creating a better place in Australia. I'm deeply saddened to hear of your loss, and I pay my respects to the Groote Eylandt people.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmanian Community Fund</title>
          <page.no>77</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Money is in short supply, and that is no more the case anywhere than with taxpayers' money, which is a finite resource, and I think we have to respect that. Much of the debate in this place and the other place focuses on how little of it there is to meet the demands of government. Tonight, that's why I'm speaking about an issue that a number of Tasmanians have contacted me about, and it's an issue that I believe does warrant further scrutiny. I'm going to be speaking about the Tasmanian Community Fund, or the TCF as it's abbreviated to, which is an entity that was set up by the Tasmanian government following the sale of the state owned bank in Tasmania, the Trust Bank, in 1999.</para>
<para>Using the proceeds of the sale of the bank and an annual appropriation of around $7 million from the Tasmanian government in their annual budget—and following an application process that usually means projects miss out because of, again, that finite resource, the money available to the TCF—the TCF board chooses projects to fund. Many of them are worthy. These projects, as is convention, are community based ones, ones that come from grassroots organisations where Tasmanians can see real benefits, tangible benefits, on the ground in their communities. Previous examples of some of the very good projects that have been funded by the TCF—and there have been many good ones funded by the good people who are members of its board—are $140,000 to the Launceston Women's Shelter; $300,000 towards the Queenstown squash courts, which is a much-needed facility in that remote community; and $6,800 for the Kingborough Community Missions emergency food relief efforts. All of them were very worthy projects and ones that I applaud the board for funding.</para>
<para>The fund and the board that manage it are governed by an act, the TCF Act. In that act, section 7(5) states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(5) In performing its functions and exercising its powers, the Board must –</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) act honestly in all matters concerning the Fund; and—</para></quote>
<para>importantly—</para>
<quote><para class="block">(b) ensure that its functions and powers are performed and exercised in the best interests of the Tasmanian community.</para></quote>
<para>I emphasise that: in the best interests of the Tasmanian community.</para>
<para>Therefore, having read that piece of legislation, I was astounded to hear that the Tasmanian Community Fund board had made a donation from these taxpayers' funds, $7 million annually, to Australians for Indigenous Constitutional Recognition Ltd, an affiliate of the Yes23 campaign. I hence wrote to the TCF board, on 21 September, seeking some details. I was asking two questions in particular. The first question was: how much was this contribution? Because it wasn't disclosed on any of their websites or social media publications. The second question I asked was: did the Yes23 campaign or its affiliates go through the same application process as Tasmanian proponents of their community and grassroots projects? The chair of the board did write back to me on 26 September in a two-page letter, and the chair did disclose that the contribution that was made to the Yes23 campaign was a whopping $557,800—one of the biggest in their history. But the chair didn't disclose to me whether this application had been put through the same process as any other grassroots application from Tasmania.</para>
<para>Tasmanians are rightly outraged at a contribution to one side of a divisive campaign that was made with taxpayers' money meant for community good on the ground to help communities in Tasmania. I can assure you, Acting Deputy President, that if the funding had gone to the 'no' campaign I'd be asking the same questions. This money is meant for Tasmanians, for good Tasmanian projects. This is not where the money has gone. I don't think any reasonable Tasmanian wanted to see a contribution made to either side of a political campaign, whether it was in support of the 'yes' or the 'no' campaign. The TCF's board's approach to funding allocation makes me question the decision-making process that's been followed here in how they allocate funding. How could the board make this massive contribution to a political campaign when no clear argument about how it would benefit the community on the ground was ever made, let alone how it would directly benefit Aboriginal communities, let alone Tasmanian Aboriginal communities?</para>
<para>I saw a news article recently where the chair of the board said they would not be changing their decision-making process. This deserves a relook. I'll be writing to the Tasmanian Auditor-General for him to examine the process and ensure future decisions reflect the original intention set out in law when the TCF was set up for genuine community good.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Superannuation: Taxation</title>
          <page.no>78</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise tonight to speak on an issue that, perhaps, has gone off the radar a little over the last few months. We've had the debate over the Voice, and we've had the debate in Western Australia, particularly, over the cultural heritage legislation. But, in regional areas, one topic that's being raised with me again and again is Labor's new superannuation tax. Perhaps it's not front of mind for many people, but it is front of mind for many small-business people and farmers out there who happen to have self-managed superannuation funds, because what this tax does, for the first time in Australia's economic history, is impose a tax on unrealised capital gains. I'll say that again: it imposes a tax on unrealised capital gains.</para>
<para>If you have a property or artwork or some gold in your super fund that appreciates in value above the threshold, you have to pay tax on that, whether or not you have the cash available. That means that farmers who have put part of their farming property quite rightly and legally into a self-managed super fund will have to find the cash to pay Labor's new tax if that farming property appreciates in value. They won't necessarily have that cash liquid, so what then will they have to do? In order to come up with the cash to pay the tax office, to pay this Labor government, they're potentially going to have to sell property. They will have to sell part of their farm to pay a tax bill. That is an outrageous impost.</para>
<para>One of the key principles of all taxation policy should be that it should not impose a burden on people who have already made decisions about their future under completely legal, legitimate arrangements. This new Labor superannuation tax explodes that principle. It forces small-business people, particularly farmers, who are in this position to potentially have to sell assets in order to pay a tax bill on an unrealised capital gain. Nobody has made any money yet. It's a book entry. It's a piece of land that's gone up in value from $1 million to $2 million. As my colleague in the chamber Senator McDonald would know very well, agricultural land can change in value a lot, and it's not necessarily a value change that is linked to the amount of money that is generated from that property. Sometimes those two things are quite divergent.</para>
<para>Another example of something you could have as a small-business person in a self-managed superannuation fund is gold. We all know that gold is countercyclical. Gold can appreciate in value very quickly, particularly in difficult economic times. So if you were in that situation, where you had some hard assets like gold in a self-managed superannuation fund, and you suddenly saw a spike in values, you could have a significant, unrealised capital gain that you will then have to sell an asset to pay the tax on.</para>
<para>This should never have been brought forward as a realistic idea. It is completely contrary to every principle of good tax planning that Australia has followed for the last 100 to 120 years. You do not tax a profit on paper. You tax a profit when it is realised—when that property is sold or when that gold is sold. You do not tax people for an increase in the value of an asset, particularly when that asset is being put aside for their future retirement. This is a policy that should never see the light of day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ipswich: Waste Management</title>
          <page.no>79</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I commence my remarks in relation to my chosen subject, I would like to compliment Senator Brockman for the contribution he's just made. It is common sense that we should not be taxing unrealised capital gains in people's super accounts. It is absolutely absurd that the government has introduced such a policy, and I really compliment Senator Brockman on his advocacy in that regard.</para>
<para>Once again this evening I stand up for the residents of Ipswich in relation to the burden which they are suffering under in relation to odours being generated by waste disposal operations in their region. On 17 September 2023 I attended a community meeting called by Stop the Stink. At that meeting members of the community had the opportunity in front of members of local government and state government—I was the only federal representative there—to voice their concerns with the ongoing odour issues they're facing as a result of the Labor state government's inability to apply the law effectively with respect to the operations of waste management companies in that area. Over the last five years there have been 26,000 odour complaints made by the people in Ipswich with respect to the operations of waste management companies, and Ipswich City Council has called for a public health inquiry.</para>
<para>All of the councillors and the mayor of Ipswich City Council called upon the state government to implement a public health inquiry as requested by the residents of Ipswich. What has the Labor state government done? Refused to conduct the inquiry. I congratulate the Ipswich City Council, Mayor Teresa Harding and all the councillors for their advocacy for the people of Ipswich in this regard. I note their media release of 30 October 2023 where they indicated, firstly, that they have instituted legal action against a private waste operator called NuGrow in the greater Ipswich region. In their media relation of 30 October 2023 they said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This action was lodged with Planning and Environment Court on 23 October as an Originating Application and is in addition to the current appeal NuGrow has lodged against Council for refusing its minor change development application.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The application alleges that NuGrow has committed planning offences relating to landfill activity, expanded composting activity, unenclosed composting and unapproved building work at their Swanbank facility.</para></quote>
<para>That's the first limb of the media release. The second limb is that council has unanimously agreed to lobby the state Labor government to enforce the enclosed composting of organic waste. That's the second limb, to make sure that residents wherever they live in Queensland don't have to put up with the odour issues the people of Ipswich have had to put up with over the last too many years.</para>
<para>I commend Ipswich City Council in relation to the action they have taken. They should not have had to spend $8 million of Ipswich ratepayers' money taking enforcement action—legal action—in relation to the operations of these waste management companies. They've had to spend $8 million of ratepayers' money to protect the interests of Ipswich residents, and it's absolutely outrageous that Ipswich City Council has had to spend that money. What is also outrageous is the impact which the operations of these waste management companies is having on the people of Ipswich. I want to give two examples of this. After I attended the Stop the Stink community meeting on 17 September, I took the opportunity to organise a meeting with two residents who were particularly impacted by the activities and the odour. The first is a resident by the name of Michelle, and I'll quote what Michelle said. 'I moved from Melbourne to Queensland in December 2021. A few weeks later I started developing strange rashes, hives and dermatitis, styes in my eyes. No steroid creams or antihistamines would keep it under control, and it continued to become worse until I was covered, trying to cope with burning skin every. I also can't sweat, or I will break out in hives'. Since January 2023 Michelle has been seeing a dermatologist. She's had skin biopsies, skin scrapings, patch testing and blood tests.</para>
<para>She now receives two Xolair injections once every month, and every fortnight she receives another Dupixent injection. She also takes medication, including four Telfast 180 every day. This is a medication usually prescribed at one every 24 hours. This is what Michelle says in relation to the impact upon her: 'I would just really like to live a normal life again without worrying about toxic odours interfering with my health and family, dermatitis, hives, not being able to go outside and the anxiety.' You don't deserve that, Michelle. You don't deserve to have to put up with that. No-one in my state of Queensland deserves to have to put up with that.</para>
<para>The second resident I met was a wonderful lady called Tracey. Tracey sends me a copy of her complaints to the pollution hotline with respect to odour. She copies me in. I thought I'd bring in the complaints which she's copied me in on. On Monday 18 September—this was the day after the community meeting I attended on 17 September—at 7.42 am, she wrote: 'Odour is horrendous, putrid, composting mixed with chemical. After coughing and then dry-retching, I ended up with my head down the toilet. This seems to be the natural occurrence with me lately—head down the toilet after having a whiff through the window of one inch open, so no windows and doors open for us.' On Monday 25 September, she wrote: 'Odour is foul manure composting smell. It is a disgusting, putrid, horrendous odour. We had to get up and close the house up again. All windows and doors now closed.' On Wednesday 27 September at 7.27 am, she wrote: 'Odour is foul manure composting, very strong. My nose and throat have a burning feeling, plus lips stinging after vomiting. I was trying not to vomit, but I ended up doing it.' This is what Tracey is putting up with day after day.</para>
<para>On Thursday 28 September at 2.05 am, she wrote: 'Odour is composting mixed in with fire smoke. It's making it worse because fire is very strong as well as compost—double whammy. All windows and doors closed. Can't breathe outside at all.' On Thursday 5 October, she wrote: 'Odour has just come through. It is disgusting, putrid, horrendous, manure composting smell.' On Saturday 7 October, she wrote: 'Smell is putrid, composting late last night. Got up to take the dogs for a pee.' On Sunday 8 October at 12.09 am, the middle of the night, she wrote: 'Burning compost smell so strong it's disgusting. Felt like I could be sick if I kept breathing it in.' It's day after day after day after day that the people of Ipswich are putting up with these odours.</para>
<para>On Sunday 8 October at 8.51 am, she wrote: 'Odour is burning compost smell still from last night. No washing can be hung on line, or even go outside and sit in the sun.' Doesn't every single citizen of Australia have the right to be able to go outside and enjoy the sunshine? On Monday 9 October at 1.08 am, she wrote: 'Odour is strong chemical mixed with composting. Chemical smell is stronger than composting. Smell is making me feel nauseous and nose and throat irritated. Headache is coming on so quick too.'</para>
<para>There were further complaints on Tuesday 10 October at 7.47 am, Tuesday 10 October at 9.36 am, Wednesday 11 October at 9.32 am, Friday 13 October at 12.40 pm, Sunday 15 October at 8.42 am, Tuesday 17 October at 3.13 pm, Friday 20 October at 8.37 am, Saturday 28 October at 10.38 pm, Sunday 29 October at 2.57 am, Monday 30 October at 7.32 am, Monday 30 October at 8.40 pm, Thursday 2 November at 7.20 am, Sunday 5 November at 7.43 pm, and Monday 6 November at 7.50 pm. Even before I came in to speak in the chamber in relation to this important matter, Tracey sent me a copy of an email at 6.35 pm tonight. This is what Tracey says: 'Odour is dangerous because it's so strong I nearly collapsed. It smells of toxic chicken manure. It filled up kitchen and dining and lounge room. I could hardly breathe. I had a headache so bad my head is pounding.'</para>
<para>Surely the people of Ipswich deserve a public health inquiry in relation to this awful issue which they've been facing year after year. Tracey and Michelle deserve nothing less.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicinal Cannabis, Renewable Energy</title>
          <page.no>80</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the many different people in our one Queensland community, I was pleased to accept an invitation from Isaac Balbin, founder of cannabis.org.au, to attend last Thursday's national cannabis industry roundtable. What a pleasure it was meeting Isaac, Rhys and their team in Melbourne and speaking with other members of parliament who, like One Nation, believe medicinal cannabis is long overdue for sensible downregulation. Medicinal cannabis is marvellous. Proven over thousands of years, in the 1920s it was America's most prescribed medicine before Big Pharma realised it could not make as much money from a natural plant. There are now 820 varieties—and growing—in the Australian cannabis cultivar database, many developed to suit specific health conditions or needs.</para>
<para>Victorian MP David Limbrick made sensible comments about where the line between government regulation for the good of society and personal freedom should be—and it's nowhere near where it is now. Legalise Cannabis Party MLC from Western Australia Sophia Moermond spoke to the need for some level of personal growth. While we may not agree on personal growing, there was so much commonality in views being expressed. I'm excited for the potential of the cannabis industry uniting behind a sensible cannabis downregulation.</para>
<para>United Kingdom member of parliament Crispin Blunt updated us on how this is progressing better in the UK than here and provided a framework for evidence based drug policy. Now, that's an idea I can get behind: evidence based policy on medicine.</para>
<para>One of Australia's leading cannabis doctors, Dr Nic Guimmarra, Vice President of the Society of Cannabis Clinicians, raised his concerns that the current licensing schedule has led to a situation where some disreputable cannabis clinics are pushing patients through so quickly that the resulting prescription and instructions for use are counterproductive for the patient. It's One Nation's belief that the heavily regulated and restricted pathway system is burying the Therapeutic Goods Administration in paperwork that it's not checking, causing suboptimal care and, likely, patient harm as conditions worsen instead of being treated.</para>
<para>This is why One Nation advanced legislation to downregulate medicinal cannabis so that any doctor can prescribe medicinal cannabis for any patient with a medical need and have that prescription filled by a chemist on the PBS. Our legislation harmonises the THC level below which a planet is hemp, not cannabis, to one per cent. This aligns with changes made in all states. The bill further adds a level of THC and CBD below which a pharmacist could sell the product to an adult without prescription.</para>
<para>I was pleased to hear Michael Balderstone, President of the Legalise Cannabis Party and a legend of the Australian cannabis industry, warn that new hybrid cannabis strains with THC of up to 35 per cent were a concern needing some regulation. Thirty-five per cent THC is insane. It would suit the treatment of chronic pain and palliative care and very little else. Michael called for some commercial growth activity as otherwise development of new strains will be compromised. This is the problem with free growing without a commercial option. The plant works best when the profile of THC, CBD, terpenes and flavonoids are set to the needs of a person with a specific health condition. Unlike pharmaceuticals, with natural plant cannabis, one size is not expected to fit all. For this development to continue, it needs a commercial market presence. Consensus in the industry may ultimately fall on some level of licensed free growing. One Nation will cross that bridge, in consultation with our members, when we get there.</para>
<para>Last Thursday I heard an analogy for free growing. It was the belief that, just because people can brew their own beer, it doesn't mean people will. In fact, almost nobody does, because people can readily buy what's needed commercially. The challenge is to take out the industry's criminal elements while providing the widest range of quality Australian whole-plant and natural medicinal cannabis at an affordable price.</para>
<para>It's a scandal that regulatory authorities insist on tight volume controls that enable criminal gangs to provide much of the domestic medicinal supply. These are gangs that lace cannabis with narcotics and then deliberately target kids at events like Schoolies. The TGA is driving practices hurtful and dangerous to children. It's a scandal that the minister could downschedule cannabis today yet has not done so; scheduling is regulatory, not legislative. It's a scandal that some in the cannabis industry, including pioneers, have developed their business under the current regulatory regime environment and see downscheduling as a threat to their nice little money-earners.</para>
<para>There's no reason the entire cannabis product offering that the TGA has authorised for prescription under their restrictive pathways program could not be offered in schedule 4, for any doctor to prescribe—products that have already been prescribed successfully and safely for many years. The minister could use a regulatory instrument to make it happen today, yet he will not, because predatory billionaire owners of pharmaceutical companies pull the strings in Canberra.</para>
<para>Australians with a medical need for cannabis don't get a look-in. This government is saying to everyday Australians, 'Your needs don't matter.'</para>
<para>The TGA monitors impacts of cannabis and has found that medicinal cannabis has a lower adverse event rate than prescribed pharmaceuticals. Sensible downregulation will save lives. It will provide hundreds of tailored strains of medicinal cannabis designed to ease suffering and improve the health of our society, while taking the profit and control away from crime gangs. I look forward to working with cannabis.org.au to make this happen.</para>
<para>Madam Acting Deputy President, as a servant to the many different people in our one Queensland community, my second topic tonight is solar and wind energy's financial failure. The tide is now against out-of-touch elitists whose income insulates them from the hardship their virtue-signalling, feelings based beliefs cause Australians. The recent referendum showed that the good sense of everyday Australians will shine through. Recent polling shows working Australians deserting the Albanese government over the cost of living, housing and immigration—crises due to virtue-signalling, feelings based urban elitist policies.</para>
<para>Look at disasters in recent months engulfing the green dream. Orsted, the huge offshore wind charlatan, booked a US$5.5 billion writedown on the value of its offshore wind installations, and the stock price this year is down 50 per cent. Last week, Norway's Equinor booked a $300 million writedown on its offshore wind portfolio. Its share price, though, was saved due to its investment in oil and gas. Siemens Energy is down 60 per cent after losses in offshore wind caused a return on investment of minus 17 per cent—negative. Vestas is down a third after announcing losses in its wind division and is now offering a return to investors of minus 11 per cent. This is from the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline>:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Andrew Forrest-led Fortescue terminated approval applications for the Uaroo Renewable Energy Hub last month.</para></quote>
<para>The <inline font-style="italic">Daily </inline><inline font-style="italic">Express</inline> reports that electric vehicles lose value for owners at twice the rate of internal combustion engines. Insurance policies are rising at twice the rate because of EVs' rising maintenance costs. In America, Hertz announced it is losing money on its EV fleet, and it's now scaling down purchases. The American Automobile Association tested EVs and found that, with a family of four and their gear on board, the highway cycle range of a family EV was reduced by 25 per cent, whereas petrol cars actually get greater range. American EV dealers now have a hundred days of stock sitting in showrooms. <inline font-style="italic">Business Insider</inline> reports that EVs have hit a market share plateau. There are only so many rich public servants ready to waste money on virtue-signalling vehicles suited to short city trips. The share price of the United Kingdom's EV company Arrivals has fallen 96 per cent. <inline font-style="italic">Drive</inline> magazine says more Australian EV sales will actually increase demand for coal, since solar and wind generation is insufficient to charge these things.</para>
<para>Recent large demonstrations against offshore wind should have caused Minister Bowen to take stock, yet he's now full steam ahead and damn the torpedoes. Ignorance never ends well. Sydney's inner-city elites will not have to look at these monstrosities, because the Labor Party are installing huge wind turbines off the workers' suburbs in Newcastle and Wollongong.</para>
<para>And the ESG corporate blackmail is hitting resistance. In the last week, United Kingdom investors withdrew $1 billion from ESG funds, making it five months in a row of negative inflows. Last year a paper showed that ESG funds do not offer returns superior to those of regular investment funds, which is why Vanguard pulled out of the Net Zero Asset Managers Initiative last December due to poor returns and risk. Last July, the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> newspaper said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"Green" investing has hit a crisis. Mounting questions over standards and effectiveness have been building for years. This year, investors voted with their feet and rushed for the exits.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …   </para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Whatever way you cut it ESG is a thematic – in creating exclusions it means investors will have more volatile returns than a fund that simply invests for the best return.</para></quote>
<para>Large corporates, superannuation firms and investment funds have a fiduciary duty to investors to operate for the best and safest returns. ESG is not safe and not profitable. ESG initiatives rely on government handouts.</para>
<para>Our economy is being destroyed. The urban elites' wealth and income can only last so long before feeling the pain they're now inflicting on everyday Australians. The green dream becomes a nightmare when the government stops propping it up with taxpayers' money.</para>
<para>Make the decision today to start putting everyday Australians first. We have one flag; we are one community; we are one nation.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Diwali</title>
          <page.no>82</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to celebrate Western Australia's Indian community—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I love Diwali.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>who had a fantastic Diwali Mela event on Saturday and Sunday. I was privileged enough to be there on the Saturday night with, I think, 15,000 Western Australians of Indian heritage in a celebration of light defeating darkness, a celebration of dance, a celebration of culture and a celebration of the wonderful contribution that the Indian community makes to my home state of Western Australia, and we were blessed. We had a fantastic opportunity to watch the performance of a Mr Terence Lewis. I am not surprised that none of my Senate colleagues yet know about Terence Lewis. Terence Lewis is very famous in India. He is a famous dancer and choreographer whose sister happens to live in Perth, Western Australia. Terence Lewis was well received by the crowd and did a fantastic performance that kicked off a night of celebration. So my heartfelt thanks and congratulations go to the Western Australian Indian community for putting on such a fantastic event over the weekend in the heart of Western Australia's capital city, the Perth CBD.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Smith. What a beautiful speech about Diwali.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 20:40</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>