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  <session.header>
    <date>2023-06-19</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Monday, 19 June 2023</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 10:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Line" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Line"> </span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia's Disaster Resilience Select Committee, Education and Employment Legislation Committee, Education and Employment References Committee, Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7019" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to this very significant bill, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a short contribution on the third reading of the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023. In making my contribution I want to make it very clear to the chamber what will happen on this side when this bill is voted on today. The majority of this side of the chamber will vote to pass this bill through the parliament. This is not though because we agree with what this bill ultimately sets out to achieve, which is of course to irrevocably change this nation's Constitution in a way that will destroy one of our most fundamental values—equality of citizenship. The majority of us will vote to pass this bill because we believe in the people of this nation and their right to have a say on this issue. Ironically, the referendum of course will provide an unequal say for every citizen.</para>
<para>What we tried to do through the committee process on Friday evening and into Saturday morning was to establish some basic information for the Australian people so that when they ultimately vote in this referendum they are properly informed. What we saw, however, from this government was a cynical exercise to obfuscate and deflect rather than provide the Australian people with the answers they both want and deserve.</para>
<para>Senator Watt of course was armed with his handy little booklet that he purported gave Australians the information that they need, but he wasn't armed with the answers to the real questions Australians are concerned about. On more than 100 occasions the best Senator Watt could do on behalf of the government was respond: 'Well, that will be a matter for the parliament,' or, alternatively, 'I refer to my previous answer.' It was without a doubt one of the greatest displays of an exercise in avoiding giving the Australian people the details that, as I said, not only they want but, if you were treating them with any form of respect, you would ensure as a government you were able to give to them.</para>
<para>Despite this government's inability to answer any questions on how the Voice will work, some things were established during the committee process. We showed that there are genuine legal risks that the Australian people are just being asked to accept. We showed that the only real attempt at explaining the Voice is a glossy two-page brochure; but what we also found out is that it isn't even worth the paper it's written on. Australia's Constitution is our most important legal document. Every single word can be open to interpretation. The meaning of the words in the chapeau, the meaning of the words in section 129(i), the meaning of the words in section 129(ii) and the meaning of the words in section 129 (iii) are all important issues, and not one of them was explained during the committee process.</para>
<para>What we do know, though, from our interrogation of the bill, is that it is four things: it's risky, it's unknown, it's divisive and, on top of all that, when you change our Constitution it is a permanent change. Enshrining the Voice in the Constitution does mean that it's open to legal challenge, and if it is open to legal challenge then it is open for interpretation by the High Court of Australia. Ultimately, despite what the government says, it is the High Court of Australia who will determine what the right to make representations actually means—a vital question that we did pursue in the committee stage and there are still no adequate answers to it. What we do know is that legal experts don't agree. And the legal experts, I'm sure, cannot be sure how any High Court will interpret such a constitutional change. Again, what are we doing here? We're opening up a legal can of worms. The proposed model, as we know it, is not just to the parliament; it's to all areas of executive government. It gives an unlimited scope, as we've heard, from the Reserve Bank and potentially to Centrelink. Or, in the words of a constitutional law professor, from submarines to parking tickets. What does that then mean for the Australian people and for the government that they know? There is a considerable risk of delay to government decision-making. And what does this, ultimately, deliver to them, potentially? The risk of dysfunctional government.</para>
<para>There is no doubt that every single one of us in this place wants to see better outcomes for the most marginalised people in our community. We all want to lift them up; none of us want to put barriers in their way. But in our national anthem, we now proudly sing that 'we are one and free'. What the Albanese government is proposing with the Voice is a way of dividing us, and that certainly does not make us one. As Senator Nampijinpa Price has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We should be one together, not two divided.</para></quote>
<para>And as Ian Callinan AC KC, former High Court judge has said, 'I would foresee a decade or more of constitutional and administrative law litigation arising out of the Voice.'</para>
<para>The coalition does not believe that this is what the Australian people want. Once the Voice is in the Constitution, it won't be undone. Once a High Court makes an interpretation, parliament can't overrule it. We'll be stuck with the negative consequences and bad outcomes. And what we saw in the committee stage of the bill on Friday night, and into Saturday morning, is that the government either will not tell or, even worse, is unable to tell Australians the most basic details. The government did not have the answers. The big message out of all of this is that the Voice is four things: it's risky, it's unknown, it's divisive and it's permanent. If you don't know how the Voice is going to work, my humble opinion is to vote no.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What a truly historic day for First Peoples and, in fact, for all of us. I start by acknowledging all of the First Nations people and others gathered here today in the gallery. We have a new generation of people voting in their first referendum and, for some of them, it will actually be their first time voting ever—and what a first vote to have! Eligible Australians will be voting to recognise the first peoples of this country in the nation's birth certificate.</para>
<para>We are the oldest living culture in the world. We have cared for this country. We have preserved the waters and ecosystems. We were the first inventors and navigated by the stars for tens of thousands of years. We are hundreds of nations across this country, with different stories, languages, cultures, arts and dances. Our people have provided many Australian governments with beautiful, deliberate and considered words in the form of statements, declarations and agreements.</para>
<para>Now what we need is action. That is the responsibility of all of us: Indigenous and non-indigenous, from remote communities to the decision-makers here in this place. And we must stand together in solidarity. In passing this bill today, the Senate will trigger a referendum and signal that the parliament's work is done. It is time for the grassroots 'yes' campaigners to get out there in the community and share with all Australians why this referendum is so important and why the Voice to Parliament is so important.</para>
<para>But this is only the beginning of what is needed. We need to restore First Nations' people's rights in this country. We also need progress towards truth and treaty. We also need that now. We need to see progress on closing the gap, community based health care, education in language, stronger cultural heritage protection and better legal frameworks to be provided for consultation on projects that are happening on country, either land or sea country.</para>
<para>For over 200 years since colonisation, we have been fighting to survive. The frontier wars saw our people chained and massacred on our lands and being systemically stolen. Government policy ripped our children from our families and punished them for speaking our languages and practicing our laws and our cultural traditions. Today, we continue to fight governments and fossil fuel billionaire who are destroying our sacred places, our meeting places for ceremony and cultural business, our ancestral songlines and our trade routes, which are in fact the social and spiritual fabric of our culture.</para>
<para>We are sovereign people and sovereign nations, and the Commonwealth government—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why did you vote for it?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, do you have a contribution, Senator Thorpe? I'm happy for you to make it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Thorpe, your interjection is disorderly. I am asking you to listen in silence. Senator Cox, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We are sovereign people and sovereign nations, and the Commonwealth government must treat us as such.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Vote against it.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, President. Senator Thorpe continues to be disorderly by her interjections.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I have asked you to listen in silence. We're up to the third reading. If you want to make a contribution, you may stand to do so. Otherwise, I'm asking you to listen in silence. Please continue, Senator Cox.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Our sovereignty has, in fact, never been ceded. My sovereignty is my birth right to care for this country, to protect this country and to be a knowledge holder and to pass that traditional knowledge on to the next generation. This change in the Constitution will not impact on our sovereignty, my sovereignty. I would not be standing here—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Prove it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to let Senator Thorpe continue.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, allow me to control the chamber. Senator Thorpe, I have called you to order a number of times. I don't want to be constantly interrupting Senator Cox. I have asked you to listen in silence, and I expect that to happen. Senator Cox, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This change to the Constitution will not impact on our sovereignty, my sovereignty, and I would not be standing up here in support of this bill if I had any doubt in my mind that it would. The Greens have sought independent legal advice and we have had discussions with the referendum working group, the Attorney-General, the Minister for Indigenous Affairs, who joins us here today, and many others. I want to thank them for their respect for our concerns and for taking the time to hear us and address these concerns. Ceding our sovereignty is something that I—and, I assume, all First Nations people in this place—would not want to do.</para>
<para>The Australian Greens remain committed to the full implementation of the Uluru Statement from the Heart and truth, treaty and voice. The referendum is the first important step. I continue to push the government for the establishment of the makarrata commission to oversee that truth telling and treaty making. My message to all Australians is that, on referendum day, I will in fact be voting yes to unite Australia, bringing us together for what I see is to be a decade of change.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today this parliament will pass the legislation to give Australians their say on Labor's Voice. As I travel around the country I'm constantly asked questions by the people of Australia wanting to understand the Voice, wanting to know how it will work and wanting to know what tangible difference it will make. These are reasonable questions that deserve answers. On Friday night and into the early hours of Saturday morning, Senator Cash, Senator Liddle, myself and others put those questions to the government. It came as no surprise that they couldn't answer them. To answer one, the minister would point to Labor's design principles as explanation for how the Voice would work. To answer another, the minister would dodge questions by saying all specifics would be up to the parliament. But it can't be both. This government is simultaneously claiming its design principles are the detail Australians are asking for while also confirming that nothing can be guaranteed until after the referendum.</para>
<para>Labor's Voice has received criticism from across the spectrum that the proposed wording is 'flawed' and 'risky', with some warning it will open a legal can of worms. Some of this country's top legal experts can't agree on how the constitutional change may be interpreted. What we do know is that the wording of this proposal gives Labor's Voice a near unlimited scope. When one constitutional law professor warned the Voice may have input on matters 'from submarines to parking tickets', his concerns were mocked in this parliament. The Prime Minister may mock these concerns, but the reality is he cannot guarantee that the Voice won't have input on these matters. The Prime Minister wants us to blindly trust him to sign his blank cheque and allow his risky proposal to be enshrined forever in the Constitution when he cannot guarantee anything. Labor showed us on Friday night that they cannot define what matters relate specifically to Indigenous Australians that don't affect non-Indigenous Australians. They showed us that they could not say what makes Indigenous Australians different to other Australians. When asked if Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander people are Australians, one Labor minister even had to confer with his advisers and he still couldn't give an answer.</para>
<para>While all of this is important, I ask Australians to look at the root of this proposal and ask themselves if they truly believe that this is the answer. Will an extra layer of bureaucracy and red tape do anything more to help Indigenous Australians? Will a Canberra body of academics and experts do anything more to close the gap? Will a body made for one group of Australians to the exclusion of all others bring us closer together?</para>
<para>I understand Australians want to do everything they can to help Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in need. I have seen this empathy and goodwill time and time again. But I also have seen it exploited, and I am seeing it exploited now. The goodwill of many non-indigenous Australians is being exploited by those who seek to profit in money, clout or power off the real problems being faced by marginalised Australians. This is a dangerous and costly proposal. It is legally risky and full of unknowns. It is exploitative. It is emotionally manipulative. But, worst of all, from the day Mr Albanese put his wording to the Australian people, the process of division was begun. We are being divided. We will be further divided throughout this campaign. And, if the 'yes' vote is successful, we will be divided forever. I want to see Australia move forward as one, not two divided; that's why I will be voting no.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I'm going to give the call to Senator Pocock and invite you to go and put a jacket over your T-shirt. Slogans are not allowed in the chamber. Senator Pocock.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I appreciate the opportunity to just briefly correct the record on a few things. In the early hours of Saturday morning we heard much about the need to have a respectful conversation and for it to be grounded in fact. There are just a few things that have been said this morning that I think are already bordering on misinformation, if not well into that territory. Senator Cash asserted that Australians have an equal say in this referendum. I would like to point out that Australians who live in the territories only account for half. We only count for the total national vote. You don't actually look at the territories' votes. The other assertion was that this is adding race to the Constitution. Race is already in the Constitution. This is about ensuring that First Nations people, Australians First Peoples, have a say on issues that affect them. After 10 years in which we've seen things not improve, it makes no sense to hear arguments to say, 'Well, we shouldn't change anything.' Yes, if it isn't broken, don't fix it, but, if it's broken, it requires fixing, and this is an opportunity to fix it.</para>
<para>Senator Nampijinpa Price referred to this as 'Labor's voice' and the 'Canberra voice'. That is blatantly untrue. This is the result of one of the most consultative processes in Australia's history. The Uluru Statement from the Heart was presented to the former government in 2017. It is a generous offer of a way for us to truly move forward to address the entrenched disadvantage that we talk about so much here in the Senate chamber. I would like to acknowledge Aunty Pat Anderson, Professor Megan Davis and the many others here who have been working for decades to get to this moment—working for decades to get Australia to the point where we are willing to make meaningful, structural change to the way that we do things when it comes to First Nations people. We have an incredible opportunity as a nation, and my hope is that, as senators, we will all keep things grounded in fact when it comes to campaigning, regardless of our differing views on this.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">An incident having occurred in the gallery—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! It's not appropriate for there to be clapping or any other actions from anyone in the gallery. Senator Thorpe.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, happy assimilation day! Sovereignty has never been ceded, but, for the first time in this country's history, people are starting to talk about sovereignty and what that actually means. Recognising First Peoples' sovereignty in this country will dissolve this colonial, violent institution that we're all in right now, and that's why you won't acknowledge sovereignty in the racist Australian Constitution. That's why the Greens voted it down—and the hypocrisy of climate! This is a colonial institution with colonial laws. I'm here—yes, I'm here—to infiltrate it, to rattle the cages and to destroy the white supremacy that is represented in this place.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I remind you to make your comments to the President.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am here for five more years. I don't need anyone's vote, I don't need anyone's white guilt, and that's what this is about. It's appeasing the white guilt in this country by giving the poor little black fellas a powerless advisory body, where those in the parliament—this place, and have a look at it—decide what it is and who it is. It might be one person; a body doesn't mean a group of people. It could be Noel Pearson, it could be one of them fellas up there—poster boy himself. Well, poster boy also followed me around the meeting at Uluru. Oh, it is terrible isn't it, but you won't talk to the black sovereign movement about these issues? You have denied their space at the table to tell you what really happened over those two days at Yulara: the violence, the intimidation, the bullying.</para>
<para>What about the referendum meetings? What happened at those? We had an old man with one arm who lit a fire in protest at Blacktown in Sydney, at the Sydney dialogue. One arm, he had. He lit a fire with his grandkids to protest. What happened to him? Fire brigade came, put his fire out. Remember that? You remember that they put his fire out and they arrested him and they put him in the back of a divvy wagon outside that dialogue. I had the chair of the Referendum Council throw the microphone across the table at me at the Melbourne dialogue. Let's talk about that:100 people in the room, and they all witnessed it. You remember that. That's the bullying and intimidation and threats that have gone on for six years.</para>
<para>For six years they have denied the black sovereign movement. Megan Davis said it already in her speech. We excluded black leaders because they were cynical. They even admitted to not having real black grassroots leaders at the table. They had the numbers sewn up in those dialogues. They had it all sewn up. They had all the land councils and the organisations. They did the numbers. They said: 'Right, Noel, we've got it. It's going to happen.' And what do you know? Here we are today. And, yes, I wore my gammin T-shirt.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, please resume your seat. I asked you respectfully—in fact, I ordered you to cover your shirt because any slogans that can be read by me are inappropriate, so please don't also refer to it. Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. Gammin, as we know, is a fake, pretend, a joke. And that is what I think a powerless voice to this place is. We have fought for over 200 years against colonisation. The Constitution is an illegal document. It's illegal. The occupation of this country is illegal. You are following the King—the King! We are all bound by the King. And now, poor little black fellas are begging for a seat at the table, and all we get is to become advisers with no power. Well, I am ashamed. I am ashamed that we are not standing here for a treaty, or for some truth to happen in this country, and that we have followed a conservative regime—John Howard's regime—Labor. His position, and the King's position, is to wipe us out. We're a problem. We're certainly a problem to this mob. We're just a problem that needs to be fixed all the time, and you are just tinkering around the edges. You won't implement the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody. You've had ample time to do that in the last 32 years. You've had ample time to implement the recommendations regarding the stolen generations. You are completely gammin—fake; you're not genuine. You wave your flag, wear your deadly black earrings and feel really good about it. We're hearing all of these beautiful heartfelt stories about how this is going to fix our lives and solve everything. But we can't even do anything until after this referendum. In estimates we were told, 'Wait till the referendum; wait till the referendum.' Meanwhile, our children are being tortured in prisons. Our babies are being stolen from their mothers' arms. Our people are taking their lives. Young men are telling me about the hanging points in their cells. They're passing the word around because they've had enough.</para>
<para>What does the Labor government do about that? They say, 'It's state and territory responsibility; we're washing our hands from this.' But there are federal responsibilities that you also ignore. The Blak sovereign movement is a voice that you never allowed at the table. If that is anything to go by, then what hope has your tokenistic Voice got? Who's going to listen to a token voice? Do you—just you—want the Voice to tell you that you need to stop killing our people? I hope the Voice is going to tell this parliament that they've got to stop killing our people. They've got to stop the suicides. They've got to stop assimilating us into their system.</para>
<para>We, First Peoples in this country, have the oldest constitution on the planet. Why are we begging like paupers, again, to go into a white, racist, colonial constitution that was set up to deny everything that we are, to destroy our lands and our waters, to destroy everything as quickly as they could, to extract as much resource as possible from stolen land, and to dispossess us and make a nice life for yourselves? There is not one law in this country that has ever, ever been good for us—not one. And now we're meant to accept a powerless voice. It is truly assimilating our people so we fit nicely as your little Indigenous Australians. It's what you want us to be, right? You don't want us to speak our language. You don't want us to practise our culture—except when you go to some festival and feel good about it. That's the only time you want to look at our culture—when it suits you; when you want to hang a painting in your Senate office. It doesn't back up what you're actually doing. You are crucifying us again, giving us no power.</para>
<para>If you are genuine, give us Senate seats in here, like they do in New Zealand. Have a treaty like they do. Why can't we do that? What are you scared of, Labor? Hawke got sidelined by his conservatives at the time, and was told not to pursue treaty. You know that. Keating tried and he got shut down. And Albo obviously has no guts to even go there—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I remind you to refer to people in the other place by their proper titles.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Labor Prime Minister of this country has not even got the courage to come out and say that he wants a treaty. He's going straight for constitutional recognition, to put us in there—so that we're nice, good little Aborigines with a parliament supremacy over us at all times. Well done! Well done on the assimilation agenda. You had the Greens' backing, which is why I left.</para>
<para>This is a point in this country where it's the final nail in the coffin. I'll be voting no to this disastrous idea of giving us no power. If this bill gave us power then I would have thought about supporting it, but I can't support something that gives my people no power. I can't support something that is hand-picked by whoever is in power. I can't support something that is just going to be considered as not very important in this place. We know how we operate in this place; it's hard enough to find time for a meeting. Who's going to have time to listen to the Voice's opinion? You don't have to turn up to get the advice; it's just advice. I've been a previous adviser to ministerial groups and women's ministerial advisory bodies—I've done all that. You're just a token adviser.</para>
<para>So happy assimilation day, everybody. Many clans and nations around this country do not support assimilating into such a racist, colonial regime, and we'll continue to push for our sovereignty to be acknowledged. We'll continue to push for a treaty and we'll continue to push for peace—real peace—in this country. Not the peace that we've seen over the last six years of this campaign, and the bullying which has really divided so many families and communities. We're not going away. We have survived. We have survived massacres and murders over the last 230 years, and we'll continue to survive. We will never cede our sovereignty; it's not just a word, it's an action, Greens! We will never cede our sovereignty and we'll fight you to the end for a treaty so that we have real power in this country. So look out!</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This will probably be one of the most momentous days in the history of our nation and this parliament. We're looking at passing a piece of legislation that will enable the people of this nation to go to a referendum on a Voice to parliament. As I've travelled around the country and spoken to a lot of Australians, they're still very, very confused about what this means to them and to future generations.</para>
<para>Some of the speakers today in this chamber, I cannot, and will not, agree with them. But as I look around the chamber and at the people in the galleries, I see people of all different cultural backgrounds and all different races; people who have migrated to this country for a better way of life. This nation was founded on the Westminster system of government after it was settled by the English. Yes, we all acknowledge there were other people in this nation at the time, but it's been on the backbone of, as people say, the colonials, the convicts and the people who came here, many of whom were dragged here from England and other places against their will. They were the stolen generation as well. Many atrocities have happened over a period of time, and we have acknowledged that. We can't change it, but we have acknowledged it.</para>
<para>Our country has grown with a parliamentary system, the same system as in England, which started with a parliament with people elected based on their dedication and passion and wanting to make changes for the betterment of this country. Those opportunities have been afforded to anyone, whether they be people born here, migrants, refugees or even Indigenous Australians. To say that they've never had a voice is truly untrue. It's not the truth. We have Indigenous people sitting in this parliament based on their ability and dedication who hold their seats in this place with pride, representing not only their own cultural background but all Australians—the same as I do. My cultural background may be English-Irish, but my responsibility in this place is to all Australians, regardless of race, colour, or creed.</para>
<para>To raise issues, as Senator David Pocock has, and to say that a lot of these questions haven't been answered and that there are problems out there, comes from a senator who, on many occasions to do with legislation, hasn't consulted with the people and with businesses and has just supported the legislation. Yet he dares to question the fact there was consultation that went on at Uluru that never did. It never did. A bunch of academics went out there. The Aboriginals I have visited in some of these communities haven't even been consulted. They have no idea what's going on. I'm sure Senator Price will back me up on this.</para>
<para>When we talk about the problems. Billions and billions of dollars have been thrown at it over the years. I've spoken about it since I first came to parliament in 1996. The money has not gone where it's needed to go. You have your bodies. You have over 3,200 Aboriginal corporations and bodies. You have a department that was set up under the previous government, the NIAA—$4.5 billion a year. You handed out over $1 billion in grants in one year to 1,500. All the other government departments are handing out $11½ billion in grants. Where has the money gone? That's the question you need to ask yourselves. Where has the money gone? Who have you put in charge of it? Is the fox in charge of the hen house? And yet you turn around and want to blame everyone else in this nation who is not Aboriginal or Indigenous for the faults when maybe you should look in your own backyard and question yourselves. Why haven't things changed?</para>
<para>You talk about the stolen generation. Yes, it did happen at the time. Ask yourself why. A lot of these children would not have survived if they were not taken away from their families. That's the truth of the matter. Some Indigenous have even admitted that. We don't do it these days, but we should for some children, because of the sexual abuse that is happening to them. But we turn a blind eye to it. We keep putting them back in families that are not going to protect and look after those children. But we don't do it to non-Indigenous families. We take the children away. Is that right for the children?</para>
<para>How many of you in this chamber have actually been to these Aboriginal communities, have actually seen what is happening? Children on the streets in the middle of the night, children who fear going back to their homes because of the abuse—the alcohol and drug abuse, the sexual abuse—these are young children. Why is it my fault because I am a white? Why is it not the communities' fault? Why are we turning a blind eye to this? These are the problems that we really need to ask questions about. Do you think a voice to parliament is going to change all of this? And Senator Thorpe was right: they want Senate seats in this place duly allocated to the Indigenous. Why? Even Senator Farrell asked me a couple of years ago: would I support an increase to 14 senators per state? No, I would not. We are overrepresented. We don't need more senators. We need people with a vision for the future of this nation. That is what we need, not more members of parliament pushing their own agendas.</para>
<para>This is not bringing us together. This voice to parliament is going to be divisive. We are all Australians together. No-one is taking into consideration my place in all of this or the place of any other Australian who was being born here but who is not Indigenous. Do you really care about the fact that I am part of this land just because you can say that you have had a connection with this land for 65,000 years? I don't care. I have heard it raised from 40,000 to 50,000 to 60,000 and now 65,000 and I have even heard 100,000 years, just because you have got your cave paintings and your Dreamtime and you have this connection with the land. What about my connection with this land? What about the farmers? What about the people who work the land? What about the defence personnel? What about the people who have died, sacrificing their lives for the freedom of this nation? Every person who would lay down their life to protect this country for freedom has every right to this land.</para>
<para>You say that you have a connection to the land, the waters, the environment—I actually went up to Palm Island. I remember the conversation with the Aboriginals up there who asked for my assistance, and I did all that I possibly could to help them with the hospital issue, the education, the housing—disgraceful, absolutely disgraceful. And if you remember my interview, Charlie Perkins was there. He said, 'You have no idea the connection that we have with the land.' I said, 'If you have got so much of a connection, why don't you clean it up?' There is more to it than that. It is about the fact that we are all Australians. We cannot change what has happened in this nation. We cannot turn back the hands of time. We acknowledge what has happened, but do you think that you can actually give people authority, voices to parliament, and that is going to make things better? It is people who have the fortitude to call it out for what it is, and it is people who will fight against those being called racist because you dare to challenge anything.</para>
<para>The word 'racist' means nothing these days. It is about being a member of parliament to represent all Australians, and I come to the point where we are being lied to. Even Attorney-General Mark Dreyfus, who is in the chamber today, said the Voice to Parliament could be challenged in the High Court. There are no guarantees. And then you have on the front page of the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline>, 'Indigenous Voice to Parliament yes campaigner Thomas Mayo's radical vision threatened that politicians would be punished if they ignored the voice advisory body.' It goes on to say, '… the Voice to Parliament being the first step towards reparations and compensation for Indigenous Australians.' More money, more greed, more power, more control. And then it says, 'The power of the Voice was its ability to punish politicians that ignore our advice on legislation and funding.'</para>
<para>Is this your truth-telling? Is this what you mean, someone who's been caught on videotape saying this or 'The fact is, we are going to use the rule book of the nation to force them,' and, what I have already spoken about and as Senator Thorpe has said, it's to pay the rent, for example? 'How do we do that in a way that is transparent and that actually sees reparations and compensation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people beyond what we say and do at a rally?' And also, 'It is a way to further what we need for our people in any negotiations for treaties and for other things, like legislation, reform and abolishment of the old colonial institutions.' What does that mean, 'reform and abolishment of the old colonial institutions'?</para>
<para>You see, that is why I said, in my opening statement, there is so much confusion, so many lies. You haven't been upfront with the people. You haven't declared exactly what you're intending. As I said, and I'll tell the people my views, I believe you intend to form a state within the country, a black state in this nation. You intend to allocate seats in parliament to the Indigenous. All you're doing is putting the wording into the Constitution, and you are going to make the legislation yourself.</para>
<para>I think it was Minister Watt who said on the floor, here, one time, 'We will have the Voice in the Constitution and then we will draft the legislation to suit.' That's what the Australian people must consider. You have no idea what Labor's intentions are, because they're not being truthful with you. You need to know the truth. Everyone needs to know the truth.</para>
<para>I call on Indigenous Australians to consider this hatred that's being peddled, this racism over a period of time. That has to stop. When you have a senator in this place say, 'This is war,' that's why there's confusion with our youth, why there are crimes being committed. What happened on the streets of Alice Springs was disgraceful, and in Townsville and other places around this country. It needs to be about us all working together to find the answers to it. The Voice to Parliament is not it. You've got the Voice. You've got a big voice now as it is. You've got more representation in this parliament, per the numbers, of Indigenous people who claim to be Indigenous.</para>
<para>That's another thing. You haven't got the guts to even admit that there is identity fraud in this nation. You've knocked back my bill. You've knocked back a Senate inquiry into it. Why, when you have people jumping on the bandwagon and claiming Aboriginality? You say there are going to be 24 elected representatives. Who are they? Are you going to have Bruce Pascoe or Senator Lidia Thorpe? Who are you going to have on it? Can you just imagine that? Who is going to be your Voice to Parliament? Are they truly going to be Indigenous? You owe people the right to have a voice but you really don't want it. So be truthful with the Australian people.</para>
<para>You in Labor have been very disciplined. You've held your people back. You can't tell me that each and every one of you agrees with this Voice. But you'll have your say at the ballot box, as everyone will. To the people of Australia: we are one people, one nation, and should be under one flag. I am telling the people of this nation, vote no to this piece of legislation and the referendum.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank all those who have attended this morning in the gallery and, in particular, our young people up there. This is an incredibly significant day in the history of our country and the parliament, in terms of the final debate on the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023.</para>
<para>We have heard from senators over the last week as well as today, in terms of their views on the Constitution alteration bill. We've certainly heard from the lower house as well, from all members who've spoken there. It has been done, if I may say so, in a very dignified way here in the Senate, and I am incredibly grateful for that—that senators have been able to conduct themselves in that way despite the different views, and there are many, and despite the deep passion and, obviously, for some, despite the concerns that they raise that give them a great deal of worry about what the future looks like.</para>
<para>I stand here not only as a senator for the Northern Territory but also as a Yanyuwa Garrawa woman, a First Nations woman from Borroloola in the Gulf of Carpentaria, and say how incredibly proud I am to be able to stand and speak for the Voice and the importance of being able to go to a referendum and say yes for our country, yes for a better future and yes for First Nations people being able to make decisions in terms of advising the parliament and the executive as to decisions made about them so they can have input into that. It is a very simple request: to be recognised in the Australian Constitution. And, yes, there are many schools of thought about that, but the symbolic nature of being included in that Constitution means a great deal to many First Nations people.</para>
<para>In fact, during this whole debate we have seen, with research polling across the country, that the majority of First Nations people want this to happen. They want this to happen. They are reaching out to all Australians to be able to feel proud of this time in our country's history, where we can lift one another up and where First Nations people can be and feel very much a part of the complete fabric. It is the systemic change that was called for by those who gathered at Uluru on Anangu country—the systemic change within the Westminster system of parliament, of governance, that we all live under, whether we like it or not. That has been the very simple request of all of those First Nations people who came together through all the dialogues and came together on Anangu country six years ago.</para>
<para>But this journey began long before that. It has gone on for decades, and I take this moment to remember Senator Pat Dodson, who led us through the reconciliation process and who is here with us in spirit today, all the way from Broome in his home country. We think of you, Pat, because it is you who have given us, certainly on this side, and I know for my First Nations colleagues Linda Burney, Marion Scrymgour, Senator Jana Stewart and also Gordon Reid, who I know is with us as well—it's important that we are able to pursue this as a country in dignity, with respect for one another. Yes, we have our differences, but isn't that what a referendum is all about? Isn't the referendum an opportunity for Australians to reach out to us as parliamentarians and say yes or no to what we take to them?</para>
<para>I do thank in advance the senators who will be supporting this bill, despite your personal opposition to it. It is important that we send a message across the country that this referendum matters and that it should be conducted with the utmost dignity, and we should show not only each other but our global family around the world that First Nations people do matter in this country and that First Nations people's voices are being heard throughout this process.</para>
<para>But I am concerned a little bit when I hear some of the commentary that goes on, and I still urge all Australians to dig deep, to listen to the better side of yourself throughout this debate and to keep it at a level that is respectful. I am mindful, when we reflect on the marriage equality debate, of the hurt, the deep hurt, that impacted a lot of those families throughout that whole debate. I ask all Australians to ensure that we have our discussions and debates, our considerations as we walk this journey, this very sacred journey, of our country, with the utmost respect for one another—and that means all sides. All of us on the 'yes' side, I urge you to be mindful of the commentary and the conversations that we have with the broader Australian public. All those on the 'no' side, I ask you to do the same. It is only then that we can find the better part of ourselves as a country, the better part of ourselves as Australians—as all Australians. This is a critical moment in our country's history. It is the right thing to do, and it is time now to put this question to the Australian people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McCarthy, for the rewarding and deep speech that you are so well known for. Today is a big day. It's a big day for this parliament, it's a big day for our First Peoples and it's a big day for our nation. Some would say it's a day as big as Uluru, because today the Senate is considering the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023 to recognise our First Peoples in our founding document and to establish an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.</para>
<para>This referendum is about making us a stronger and more united country, and I welcome members of the Referendum Working Group who join us here in the gallery; the 40 young First Nations people from Jawun who travelled to Parliament House to show support for constitutional recognition; and all of those who join us here today. This referendum is about two simple yet very big things: recognition and listening. It's about finally recognising Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples in Australia's Constitution, and it's about establishing a Voice to Parliament to make sure we are listening to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples on issues that affect their lives.</para>
<para>What will that achieve? It will achieve real, practical improvements in the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, who to this day face lower life expectancy, lower employment, health and educational outcomes, and higher incarceration rates than the rest of us. It's about giving people a say on issues that affect them, like their health and education, because the way we've been doing things without listening has produced those terrible outcomes. It's about acknowledging in our Constitution that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples have been here for more than 60,000 years. It's about being proud of Australia and the oldest continuing civilisation on our planet. It's about making history. It's about helping deliver a fair go for all. As the Solicitor-General and various former High Court judges have advised, the amendment we are debating here today is constitutionally sound.</para>
<para>It is disappointing this morning to see the coalition and their allies continue their campaign of misinformation about what this is about. I respect the fact that not all Australians support the Voice. I respect the fact those who oppose the Voice have the right to campaign against it. But I say to those campaigning against the Voice: with that right comes responsibility, a responsibility to tell the truth. You have a responsibility to not make stuff up and spread things you know are not true.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I have Senator Wong on her feet.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think all contributions have been heard in silence, and I'd ask that Senator Watt be afforded the same courtesy.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Wong.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interje cting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Contributions have been heard in silence, and Senator Watt is entitled to the same silence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Most who are watching here today weren't watching the debate until 4.15 on Saturday morning. They were sensibly tucked up in bed. But during that debate we did get a glimpse of what some opponents of the Voice intend to say leading up to the referendum. We were asked who Australia's First Peoples were, even though it is set out in the very same sentence of the constitutional amendment. We were asked if these First Peoples really are disadvantaged, when the facts are before our eyes. We were asked to justify why matters relating to the Voice will be left to the parliament to decide, when the existing Constitution does the exact same thing. We were asked to explain the principles underpinning the Voice—to explain what we mean by terms like 'empowering', 'inclusive' and 'respectful'. I have to say I found it rather surprising that some senators needed those concepts explained. We were even asked around 4 am if the Voice would impact on Melbourne's Suburban Rail Loop. At least we learnt the nature of the scare campaigns that we will see in the next few months. But, despite all of that, I'm confident that Australians won't be distracted and misled by that kind of dishonesty. I'm confident that Australians will respond with the honesty, generosity and belief in a fair go that we are known for around the world.</para>
<para>This idea of constitutional recognition through a voice began with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. This is what Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have asked of Australia. In 2017, after more than 10 years of consultation and conversation, hundreds of elders and leaders gathered at Uluru, and together they wrote the Uluru Statement from the Heart. It asked for Australia's First Peoples to be recognised in the Constitution through an advisory group called the Voice to Parliament to make sure that they were listened to on issues that affect them. I think it's worth remembering what the Uluru Statement from the Heart says. It says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Proportionally, we are the most incarcerated people on the planet. We are not an innately criminal people. Our children are aliened from their families at unprecedented rates. This cannot be because we have no love for them. And our youth languish in detention in obscene numbers. They should be our hope for the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These dimensions of our crisis tell plainly the structural nature of our problem. This is <inline font-style="italic">the torment of our powerlessness</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a <inline font-style="italic">rightful place</inline> in our own country. When we have power over our destiny our children will flourish. They will walk in two worlds and their culture will be a gift to their country.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We call for the establishment of a First Nations Voice enshrined in the Constitution.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 1967 we were counted, in 2017 we seek to be heard. We leave base camp and start our trek across this vast country. We invite you to walk with us in a movement of the Australian people for a better future.</para></quote>
<para>Now, in 2023, Australians will get the opportunity to vote on this generous invitation. I will work hard for it. The government and many non-government members will work hard for it. More importantly, many thousands of Australians will work hard for it. It's time to recognise our First Peoples. It's time to listen. It's time to say 'yes'.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the Constitution Alteration (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice) 2023 be read a third time.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:11]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>52</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>19</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to, with an absolute majority.<br />Bill read a third time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para><inline font-style="italic">(In division)</inline> Nail in the coffin. Assimilation at its best.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I ask that the count be conducted in silence.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>11</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>11</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion to provide for the consideration of the Housing Australia Future Fund Bill 2023 and related bills.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice standing in the name of the Leader of the Australian Greens in the Senate, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent me from moving a motion relating to conduct of business—namely, a motion to provide for the consideration of the Housing Australia Future Fund Bill 2023 and related bills.</para></quote>
<para>I have circulated a motion in the chamber this morning which would allow for the housing bill to be considered after the government and the Prime Minister report back as to what agreement, if any, the Prime Minister can get out of National Cabinet in relation to the extraordinary amount of pressure renters are facing around the country today. We know, of course, that the housing bill, which this government has stubbornly been opposed to negotiating over, is before the Senate today, and the Greens would like for us to postpone that bill until the Prime Minister can show what he is going to do to relieve real pressure on one-third of Australian households.</para>
<para>We have been fighting long and hard to ensure that real money is put on the table to deal with the housing crisis, and—after months of being told that there was nothing that the government could do and they handed down a budget with no real money to deal with the housing crisis—over the weekend, we've seen, finally, a bit of cash, stashed at the back of the couch, put on the table. Finally, the government has found an extra $2 billion to relieve some of the pressure, to start getting on with building affordable, social housing. Well, good. Get on with it. Spend the money. And, in the meantime, give us your plans as to what you're going to do in relation to that one-third of Australians who live every day with the fear that next week, or next month, or next year, their rent is going to be put up. We know that the pressure that Australians in rental accommodation are feeling is extraordinary. We hear the stories every day. Our offices are inundated every day. They want us to act.</para>
<para>This motion says that we can deal with the housing bill on 16 October, after the Prime Minister comes back from National Cabinet having secured a deal. It is disappointing that, so far, the Prime Minister has done nothing for renters in this country. In fact, worse than that, he has said it is out of his hands. I mean, come on, mate. You're the Prime Minister of the country. You're the most powerful man in the land. You can, of course, use your influence, your abilities and the infrastructure of government to get something done. Put some money on the table at National Cabinet and get your colleagues, who we know are wall-to-wall Labor states on the mainland, to deliver for real people right now—renters and those needing social housing. Don't be so stubborn about it; just get the job done. Come to the party and be prepared to negotiate. If Labor acts on soaring rents at National Cabinet, this bill can pass, but, until then, what we are seeing is stubbornness and a refusal to act.</para>
<para>One-third of Australians have been left in the cold because the Prime Minister is playing games. Rents are rising, living costs are soaring and a third of Australians are being told: 'Bad luck. Not my problem.' We need our Prime Minister to take more leadership than that. We need a Prime Minister who is prepared to act for all Australians, whether you own a home, whether you're in social housing or whether you rent. We know that the people in rental accommodation are among the most vulnerable. They're in the most casualised work. They're students. They're single parents. They're young people. They desperately need to hear that this government cares about them, but all they've had so far is refusal, stubbornness and being put in the too-hard basket. It ain't good enough, which is why the Greens are standing here today. We will put this bill off until the Prime Minister comes back from National Cabinet with a plan to help renters.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, you don't need to wait until 16 October to start addressing the problems that you're talking about. You can start fixing this problem today. You can vote with the Labor Party to start addressing this problem this very day—not on 16 October but this very day. I can see you already—there you go!—lining up with your allies on this. Senator Ruston and Senator Hanson-Young are working out how they can delay $10 billion worth of legislation that will start improving the position of renters and of homeless people in trouble. How can they start helping? They can start by voting for this today.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson-Young, part of this program that we would vote on today is $100 million for crisis accommodation for women and children. Why are the Greens opposing that? Why wouldn't you vote today to start getting that $100 million out into crisis accommodation for women and children? Why are you lining up with the coalition to block $100 million for crisis accommodation for women and children? There is also $30 million to build housing and provide services for veterans. Again, Senator Hanson-Young, why would the Greens be lining up—we know why the coalition doesn't want to spend money on veterans to give them better accommodation, but why aren't the Greens backing this legislation? Why are they sitting there and lining up with the coalition to block this legislation?</para>
<para>Part of this program is $200 million for the repair, maintenance and improvement of housing in remote Indigenous communities. On a day when we've just voted to pass legislation to recognise Indigenous Australians through a Voice—a referendum—why on this day, of all days, would the Greens be lining up with the coalition to block $200 million worth of investment for the repair, maintenance and improvement of remote Indigenous housing?</para>
<para>Senator Hanson-Young, here's a proposal: $10 billion to start addressing one of the most serious problems currently in our community. There could be $10 billion of investment, and what are the Greens doing? Are they saying: 'Yes, we'll join with the Labor Party. We understand these problems. We understand the problems that women and children face in finding crisis accommodation. We understand the problems of veterans finding accommodation. We understand the problems of Indigenous Australians and how they might be needing accommodation. We're going to do something sensible here. We're going to put our ideological'—I know you've got lots of divisions. We can see that on a daily basis. We know that you're no longer in control of your own destiny, but there is a way, Senator Hanson-Young, to progress this issue. We don't need to wait until 16 October. We can do this today. We can make progress today. You can leave your coalition colleagues behind. You can leave them to vote against this. You can vote with the Labor Party to get $10 billion worth of investment into housing and into rental accommodation to start solving some of the serious problems.</para>
<para>In time, Senator Hanson-Young, you'll come to realise what a mistake it is to be sitting there, as you were a few minutes ago with Senator Ruston, working out what the strategy is to delay crisis accommodation for women and children, to delay investment in homes for veterans and, worst of all on this particular day, to vote down legislation for remote Indigenous Australian communities.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition will be supporting this suspension, because it is our view that the government has had every opportunity to negotiate with the Greens or anybody else in this place so that your bill will actually reflect the will of this chamber, but you haven't. You haven't even tried. Senator Farrell, in your contribution, you said that, if this bill went through, you could start providing this crisis accommodation, veterans accommodation and Indigenous accommodation tomorrow. Well, you could too if you actually negotiated your bill so that it could get through this place.</para>
<para>Instead, you are absolutely hell-bent on coming in here and continuing to put up a $10 billion future fund with not one guarantee of a cent of this money ever ending up in the housing market. Basically, what you're doing is putting forward a bill that is saying that $10 billion is going to be gambled on the stock market—or to that effect. If you were really deadly serious, you could spend this money today. You don't need to put this legislation through in order to put money into the social housing, affordable housing and support housing that you come in here and talk about. You could have just put it into your budget. That would have been a pretty simple way to do it.</para>
<para>But what we are seeing is a government that is losing control. You may have said, Senator Farrell, that the Greens are losing control. I would actually contend that it is you who are losing control, which will be demonstrated by the fact that you can't even control your legislative agenda today because you haven't done your homework.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, I remind you to make your comments through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course. What we're seeing today is another demonstration of a government that hasn't done its homework on its legislation but is coming in here. This is a pattern of behaviour that we are continuing to see. We have seen it through many other pieces of legislation. It's all a great big headline. 'We're going to spend $10 billion on social and affordable housing.' It sounds great, but you are not spending $10 billion on social and affordable housing. You are investing $10 billion on the stock market, in the hope that it will provide you with a sufficient return to enable you to put some investment into this area. It was the same as your legislation; you were going to come here and put—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, just—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>care back into aged care, Madam Chair. But no: it was a great headline, but there was no reality in terms of how you were going to deliver it. Another one was pharmacy and 60-day dispensing. It sounds like a great idea—cheaper and easier access to medicines—but you forgot to actually do your homework and consult.</para>
<para>What we have here is a classic example of the implications and the result of legislation that has not been consulted on and legislation which has had no consideration of secondary effects. It's legislation, in this instance, that has completely disregarded normal, reasonable budget practices. And guess what has happened? You've lost control of it, because there are those in this place—and I thank the Greens for their sensible consideration of this—that actually take those three things very, very seriously. You must consult, you must understand secondary consequences and you should follow normal budget processes. Stuffing something off the balance sheet just to give yourself a budget surplus is completely irresponsible, and that's why we will be supporting this suspension motion today.</para>
<para>We saw on the weekend that instead of coming and actually negotiating so that you could come up with something that was palatable to this place to enable it to go through and to enable that money to flow in whatever mechanism you were able to negotiate, we saw the Prime Minister just throwing a couple of billion dollars out there. Once again, this is a classic example of where you haven't done your homework and don't have a process in place. It hasn't been a considered reform and it hasn't been a consulted reform. Maybe you'd find that things go through this place a little bit better if you actually do your homework, do your preparation and make sure that everything is in place before you come in here and demand that the representatives of the Australian Senate vote for something. If you're only going to throw headlines out with your legislation; if you aren't going to put the detail in there or provide advice in terms of subordinate legislation; if you aren't going to follow appropriate and proper processes; and if you aren't going to bring the Senate along with you then you'll continue to see that the sensible people in this place will actually hold you to account and make you go through the necessary processes so that we can end up with a situation where the will of this Senate, which reflects the will of the Australian people, is delivered in your legislation. Stop being lazy and actually do your job.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We can see the anti-housing coalition in full effect! We know that those opposite have been opposed to affordable housing for more than a decade, because they were in government and did nothing about it. But they've partnered up with the Greens—and that's the disappointing thing in this chamber here today, but we've seen it consistently from the Greens now four months. They have used every trick in the book to delay having a vote on this. This is a new low today, where they're actually going to partner up with those opposite, who did nothing for a decade on affordable housing, and delay this bill further. And that's not delay it for days, it's delay it for four months. It's four more months before we can have a discussion about this! We've been trying to debate this bill in this chamber for months now, and they've used every trick in the book to oppose it. They say that they're happy to vote against it, and yet it doesn't seem like it because they constantly come in here and try to come up with new ways to delay having the vote on this. But today is a new low for them.</para>
<para>When you think about it, those opposite have been opposed to affordable housing—it's basically in their DNA. But if you think about the Greens and the role that they've played in their local communities, they're always finding ways to oppose new developments in those communities. They've done that consistently since they've gained a foothold in communities. We know that the member for Griffith has been doing it locally and we know that Greens councillors have been doing it in communities all across the country. I've seen it in Brisbane as well; I've seen what they've done in South Brisbane since they gained a foothold and elected people to parliament. But it's a new thing for them to oppose it in the parliament. We know they've been doing it in the community—the NIMBY, not in my backyard. They do what they can to oppose housing being developed, but it's a new low for them to come into the chamber and delay action on this bill.</para>
<para>So they do now have to be accountable for their actions, and that's what the government are doing. We're very proud about our housing bill and we're proud about what the Prime Minister announced on Saturday, because we do see it as an urgent and as important. But it's disappointing that the Greens continue to play games and tricks rather than actually having a proper debate on this, bringing it to a conclusion and supporting more affordable and social housing in the community. We know that the Greens' housing spokesperson has used his voice locally to oppose new developments in the Griffith electorate. We know that they've been doing that consistently in other parts of the country as well.</para>
<para>We are being held back by the Greens' opposition to new housing developments in communities but also by what they are doing now in this chamber. It is only the Labor government that wants to take action to address affordable housing challenges. This is a policy we took to the election. It's one that we're absolutely passionate about delivering on because we know there is an urgent need across so many communities, not only in capital cities but in regional communities across the country. That is what is at stake in this debate. We have been keen to have this conversation and debate in this chamber for months. We have been frustrated about it. We've been trying to deal in good faith with those concerned about the bill. We have been doing that as best as we can, but they still can't bring themselves to do the right thing to start tackling this issue.</para>
<para>With regard to some of the myths they've been running, it's disappointing to hear the opposition and the Greens consulting on and using the same lines. If they really believe that this is a gamble on the stock market, why do they support superannuation? That is the basic principle of how this works. If only I had a dollar for every time I heard Senator Whish-Wilson mention the sovereign wealth fund. It works on the same basis and principle. That is how these things can be funded, on a long-term basis, that will actually make a difference for the country. So these lines are rubbish. They don't belong in what is an important debate that will start solving some of those challenges that we inherited when it comes to social and affordable housing. This line about a gamble on the stock market is nonsense. That is something that has been used. People use the Future Fund for their superannuation. They know the power it can have by investing in it the right way and using that money to invest in more affordable housing. We know that that is a way that it will start to provide more social and affordable housing in more parts of the country where it's so urgently needed at the moment.</para>
<para>I would urge the Greens to drop off their support with the opposition and support the government's proposition. We know that this will start to deliver more social and affordable housing in more parts of the country, where there is such a desperate need for it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's pretty rich for Labor to stand up here and say that they have been negotiating in good faith. That is absolutely inaccurate. For months the Greens have been trying to get Labor on the table to actually negotiate in good faith so that we wouldn't be in this situation that we're in, so that millions of people out there wouldn't be in the situation that they are in—just one rent increase away from being evicted, sleeping in cars, sleeping in tents, sleeping on the street.</para>
<para>Do you know what Labor is really upset and angry about here today? It's that, once again, they have been shown that when the community and the Greens get together and fight tooth and nail, when we stand up for people who live in this country and are struggling and when we actually campaign for what is right, things change. That is exactly what happened a couple of days ago. After months and months of pressure from the community and from the Greens, Labor did give in. It's good that you did give in because we need that $2 billion right now to build new social and affordable homes.</para>
<para>But we also need to do something to support the millions of renters in this country, and your bill on the table at the moment does nothing. You can go on and try and spin it as much as you want, but it does nothing for renters. A couple of days ago, you showed that the federal government could incentivise the states to make a change. You have wall-to-wall Labor governments across the country, so incentivise them. Give them money so that we can cap rents so that millions of people get the relief they need. It is in your power. It is in the power of Prime Minister Anthony Albanese to do that. He just showed a couple of days ago that this government could do that. Somehow $2 billion appeared out of the back of the couch. I'm sure that there's a bit more at the back of the couch somewhere, so dig in and find that money.</para>
<para>The National Cabinet meeting in a few months can make that decision, but you can make that decision now. We don't have to wait for National Cabinet. You can make the decision today to provide relief to renters—the millions of people who are struggling to keep a roof over their head while they're struggling to put food on the table, while they're struggling to pay their student debts and while they're struggling to pay for medication. You can provide some relief to those people right now. You must have heard those stories as well. You could negotiate a two-year rent freeze and caps on rent increases in the same way as you have negotiated this new reform and put the money on the table for the states and territories to build the social and affordable homes that are needed.</para>
<para>Here's the other thing. If you can spend $2 billion in one year, you can spend that $2 billion every year as well, because $2 billion as a one-off is not enough. It is entirely in your hands to make this change. You are the government and you have the numbers in here to be able to do something to cap rents, as many countries in the world have done. So do that. Don't stand here and be angry because our community campaign is working. Don't stand here and blame the Greens for not doing anything, because the opposite is true. We have stuck to our guns, stood with the community and have forced you to make that change, and we will force you to make a change and do something to provide relief to the millions of renters who are facing real hardship at the moment. That's what's at stake here, and that is why we are fighting hard for it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The net result of today's vote—a conspiracy between Mr Bandt and Mr Dutton and a conspiracy between Mr Chandler-Mather and Mr Taylor—will be 30,000 fewer homes. That will be the consequence of this vote—30,000 fewer homes. The Greens are out there in communities pretending that they care about low-income people and pretending they care about people who need housing. They are going to wear around their neck for year after year after year is the consequence of what they have done today—30,000 fewer homes for low-income Australians.</para>
<para>We saw the government's determination on Saturday. The Prime Minister said, 'We're not going to wait for the coalition logjam'—the ideologically convenient alliance between the Trotskyites and student politicians over here and the hard right of the Liberal Party. What did the Prime Minister do? He announced $2 billion of additional social housing expenditure because we on this side are about social housing. What they over there are about is social media.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you in government or what?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is the difference between the two propositions that have been advanced. There will be 30,000 fewer homes as a consequence of this. And Senator Chisholm is right: Mr Chandler-Mather in his self-indulgent student politician display of—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ayres, please sit. Senator Hanson-Young, I take it you have a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a point of order about reflections on other members. Government senators in particular know that that's out of order. I would like it to be withdrawn. Let's do this debate in a respectful way.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that. It's a timely reminder that the interjections from that corner throughout Senator Ayres speech are disorderly. I ask people to show respect. Senator Ayres, you could show courtesy to the chamber and withdraw your comments. I remind people too that, when you refer to Anthony Albanese, his title is Prime Minister Anthony Albanese. Senator Ayres.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. I'm very happy to withdraw.</para>
<para>Th e ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT: Thank you. Please continue.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens political party's campaign has been utterly self-indulgent from beginning to finish. I saw posters in my neighbourhood that said the housing crisis was Labor's fault. We've been in government for 12 months, big structural issues there, and what is the nature of the campaign? It is a carping, negative, utterly self-indulgent campaign. And the consequence of this cynical manoeuvre today will be 30,000 fewer homes. We are for social housing; they are for social media, and social media has never built a house yet. No matter what advances there are in artificial intelligence, I can tell you that social media will not ever build a home.</para>
<para>What is the government setting about doing? Two billion dollars to build, maintain and repair social housing was announced on Saturday, along with working with the states and territories in a cooperative way to unlock the supply challenges and deal with the challenges of housing. No doubt this will be opposed in every suburb where there are Greens councillors. Not in not in backyard is now not in Max's backyard. There will never be Greens support for development.</para>
<para>The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT : Senator Ayres, please resume your seat. Senator Waters, on a point of order?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's relevance. Not only is he using the incorrect title, but it's all incorrect. Is this all you've got? Why don't you just build some houses?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There is no point of order. Senator Ayres, I invite you to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am happy to withdraw—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ayres, there's a point of order I foresee coming, Senator Whish-Wilson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whi</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is he referred to him as 'Max'. He knows he should use the member for Griffith's full title.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry I didn't hear that. Senator Ayres, I give you a reminder that everyone should use people's correct titles. Senator Ayres, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On Saturday it was announced there would be $2 billion in addition to the government's current package working to build, maintain and repair social housing; working with the states and territories in a cooperative and credible way to unlock the supply of housing and land; dealing in a constructive and effective way with all of the supply chain challenges that exist in the housing industry at the moment; and working with the industry on those questions, not locking the industry out of the discussion. We'll be working carefully through the labour supply and skills challenges issues. Beyond that is the National Housing accord, with 10,000 additional homes from the Commonwealth matched by 10,000 additional homes from the states. We're widening the remit of the National Housing Infrastructure Facility and dealing with the challenges through the National Housing and Homelessness Plan. We're fleshing out and providing more certainty for the regional first home buyers guarantee. We're putting our shoulder behind the wheel with the Help to Buy Scheme.</para>
<para>It is okay, in my view—it is a good thing—to argue for more. The problem is that the consequence of voting for this proposition is that there will be less. We are for more; there will be 30,000 fewer homes as a consequence of this proposition.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the suspension motion as moved by Senator Hanson-Young be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:53]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>36</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>22</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                <name>White, L.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, to allow time for National Cabinet to progress reforms to strengthen renters' rights as advised in the Prime Minister's press release of 28 April 2023, including reforms to limit rent increases, further consideration of the Housing Australia Future Fund Bill 2023 and two related bills be made an order of the day for 16 October 2023.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the government amendment as circulated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "16 October 2023", substitute "the next day of sitting".</para></quote>
<para>Can I just speak to that amendment?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is leave granted? Oh, I beg your pardon. He doesn't need leave; he's a government minister. Sorry, Senator Farrell—too much excitement this morning!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Plenty of excitement. We saw that axis of evil where the Greens and the coalition are lining up to vote against $10 billion worth of housing, including crisis accommodation for groups like women and children and extra housing for veterans and, of course—so sadly, on the day when we've passed the legislation to allow a referendum on recognition and on an Indigenous Voice to Parliament—$200 million for repair and maintenance of remote and Indigenous communities.</para>
<para>Can I say that it is the view of the government that if the Senate proceeds with this application—and please listen to this, Senator Hanson-Young and Senator Ruston—and defers bills to October, the government will regard this as the Senate failing to pass the bills, and I'm sure you understand the consequences of that. So, if the Senate defers the bills to October, the government will regard this as the Senate failing to pass the bills. I urge you to support, therefore, my amendment.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Farrell be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:02]<br />(The President—Senator Lines) </p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>23</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                <name>White, L.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>37</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion as moved by Senator Hanson-Young be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:07]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>37</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>23</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                <name>White, L.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>18</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>18</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6991" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>18</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Several months ago, I visited the UTS Startups hub, an exceptional example of a university accelerator course working as it should without imposing a massive debt trap on students. The UTS Startups hub is one of some 120 accelerator or incubator courses being offered by Australian universities, most at no or very little cost to students. At the UTS Startups hub last year, more than 800 students enrolled at no cost—student entrepreneurs seeking to create a business, develop a new idea or progress in innovation. Some 570 jobs were created. Like so many universities, UTS sees great value in investing in student entrepreneurs and provides around $3.5 million a year for its wide range of startup activities, and this is well and truly paying off. In some five years, the UTS Startups hub has created companies worth, in total, more than $500 million.</para>
<para>I regret to say that the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023 is half-baked policy. It is a solution in search of a problem. Why on earth would students take on a massive startup year loan for an accelerator or incubator course when there are more than 100 from which to choose being offered currently by many universities, principally free of charge? I say to Australian students: if this legislation passes today, don't risk taking out a startup year loan. Have a look at the incubator and accelerator courses that are on offer and even some of the TAFE courses, such as the Certificate IV in Entrepreneurship and New Business qualification offered by New South Wales TAFE, which is roughly half the cost of a startup HELP loan.</para>
<para>As I said, this is half-baked policy, a Labor election commitment—in truth, a thought bubble—from the industry minister, Mr Husic. It is embarrassingly clear that the government has not done its homework, and we should not be surprised. Labor is tone-deaf to its cost-of-living crisis, which is imposing such a significant burden on so many students. So many students are struggling to put food on the table or pay the rent. Labor is tone-deaf to the more than three million Australians who have a HECS debt which has just increased by a massive 7.1 per cent as a result of Labor's sky-high HECS indexation. This is compounded by a broken HECS payment system, which indexes loans without taking into account repayments made during the financial year. This loans scheme should be stopped before it starts. Startup Year would cripple students with a debt of up to $23,600 for full-fee-paying university courses.</para>
<para>What's so ridiculous about this whole scheme is that these courses don't even exist currently. The guidelines that underpin the operation of the Startup Year program were only released publicly last week—we have been calling for these guidelines for months, as have the universities—and this is a program that's meant to start in less than two weeks. It's an absolute mess. That's why I will be moving, at the end of my contribution, a second reading amendment that the bill not proceed until the guidelines are tabled. I also say it's very regrettable that the universities were not consulted on the draft guidelines. They were not given that opportunity. This is extremely arrogant of the Albanese government. The government is asking universities to deliver these courses, and it does not pay the universities the courtesy of consulting them on how these courses will be delivered.</para>
<para>Last year, the government ran a consultation on the proposed Startup Year program, and the university sector was absolutely scathing in its criticism. There were a broad range of concerns, deep concerns—that this is a scheme unfit for purpose; this is a scheme which offers no discernible value to students; the whole design of Startup Year is flawed; the risk to students is too high; students would be reluctant to take on more debt more consultation was needed, such as a working group, before the bill was passed; and there should be a proper pilot, a genuine pilot, before the scheme is rolled out in full. There was also broad concern that the Startup Year loans program discriminates against regional students and regional universities without existing accelerator programs.</para>
<para>In fact, these submissions were so scathing that the government tried to keep them secret until the Senate ordered, initiated by the opposition, that the submissions be made public, though I do note our disappointment that the Greens backed the government's public interest immunity claim to keep three of those consultations secret. That was most regrettable, particularly for a government which, before the election, crowed so intensively about the importance of being transparent, and we now see this government failing this basic obligation time and time again.</para>
<para>This bill demonstrates that the Albanese government has not put the interests of students first. We are supporting the provisions in relation to Avondale University as a table B provider, the provisions in relation to the Australian Research Council and the amendment in relation to providing New Zealand citizens who apply for PR, up until 1 July, the opportunity to access HECS. But we will be seeking to vote down the Startup Year provisions because these pose such a significant risk to students. As I say, it's very regrettable that the interests of students have not been put first and foremost by this government.</para>
<para>If we are not successful in voting down the Startup Year provisions, the opposition will be seeking to pass a number of substantive amendments. They are that the bill should include intellectual property rights protection for students, which it currently does not do; and that, as far as reasonably practicable, at least 25 per cent of students who receive startup assistance should be enrolled in a regional university. We've seen no regard for the needs of regional students in this bill. We also are seeking for the Secretary of the Department of Education to be given the power to refund those students who enrol in a Startup Year course where the higher education provider fails to deliver a course which meets its objectives. We want these very, very important safeguards for students.</para>
<para>We're also seeking that the government run a proper pilot of the Startup Year program at least at one university or perhaps at two universities, that this pilot be subject to an independent review and that the results of the review be tabled in each house of the parliament. We are very concerned that the government's current proposal—after the university sector called for a pilot to be run before this is rolled out, with the full 2,000 places—is to roll out 1,000 places, which we don't believe gives students enough protection and isn't a genuine pilot based on proper criteria to really test the efficacy of this scheme. So, as I say, this is bad policy. Some universities have spoken out and continue to speak out very strongly against this loan scheme.</para>
<para>I want to place on record my disappointment—and this was made very clear in the Senate inquiry into the bill, which was conducted a couple of months ago—that some of the peak higher education bodies such as Universities Australia, the Group of Eight and the Australian Technology Network have not been more robust in speaking out about the risks to students in taking on this full-fee-paying student loan. Just imagine the lunacy of saying to a student, 'Go and take on $23,600, or one course at $11,800, for a full-fee-paying course at such a high risk.' It would be subject to indexation next year and every year beyond that, on top of the current debt that so many students are carrying, rather than looking at one of the 120 courses which are currently on offer, many of which are available to students at little or no cost. It is an absolute nonsense.</para>
<para>In speaking about the importance of backing our young student entrepreneurs, I want to celebrate the incredible work of the coalition when we were in government in backing entrepreneurs, including young Australian entrepreneurs. We introduced programs such as the Entrepreneurs Infrastructure Program, worth nearly $500 million, to support the commercialisation of goods and job creation and lift the capability of small businesses. We condemn the government's decision to cut some $200 million from this program in the October 2022 budget. This was delivering for all businesses wanting to be entrepreneurs; this was delivering right across this nation. It was a very regrettable decision by the Albanese government.</para>
<para>I also celebrate the $2.2 billion University Research Commercialisation Action Plan, which was a very significant initiative of the former coalition government. I am pleased that this is being supported by the Albanese government and has support across the parliament. This includes some incredibly important initiatives including the $243 million Trailblazer Universities Program, which brings together industry, government and the six universities that have won these grants to develop wonderful new trailblazer programs for the future. The commercialisation package also includes a $1.6 billion investment for Australia's Economic Accelerator, which is a new stage-gated competitive funding program to help university projects, in partnership with industry and government, to bridge the so-called valley of death on the road to commercialisation.</para>
<para>There is the opportunity right now to go back to the drawing board and, at the very least, run a proper pilot so that this very flawed and defective scheme can be independently assessed using proper criteria by an independent process, with the results reported back to the parliament. At a time when so many students are on their knees, battling Labor's cost-of-living crisis and with escalating student debt with no relief in sight, the best the government can do is put forward this half-baked loan scheme, which will plunge students into even further debt for no discernible benefit.</para>
<para>I move an amendment to the motion for the second reading:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all words after "That", substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) by reason that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) much of the design, implementation and operation of the Startup Year program, including important safeguards for students such as the protection of students' intellectual property rights, are to be governed by the START-HELP Guidelines, a draft of which has not been tabled in the Senate; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the bill does not otherwise include the necessary provisions relating to the design, implementation and operation of the Startup Year program, including important safeguards for students such as the protection of students' intellectual property rights;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) further consideration of the bill be made an order of the day for the sitting day after draft STARTUP-HELP Guidelines have been tabled in the Senate.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023. The bill amends the Higher Education Support Act 2003 to create a fifth category of student loans, called SY-HELP, under our existing Higher Education Loan Program.</para>
<para>This scheme will allow up to 2,000 students, current postgraduate students and recent graduates to participate in university accelerator programs to develop their own innovative startup ideas. The bill enables students undertaking the accelerator program courses to, potentially, qualify also for certain social security payments. It also updates the Australian Research Council Act 2001 to increase annual research funding caps, to reflect indexation rates for the financial years between 2022 and 2025 and adds a research funding cap for the financial year of 2025-26. The Greens support, fully, these measures for ARC funding.</para>
<para>We support the intention behind this bill to encourage more students to build skills in entrepreneurship and develop their own ideas. There is definitely a need to support students to do this, to be more creative, to be entrepreneurs, for their ideas to come to life. We definitely need more entrepreneurs from already disadvantaged groups, such as First Nations people, people of colour, women and others who come from marginalised backgrounds.</para>
<para>We support this program but very reluctantly. I say 'reluctantly' because this program will shackle students with more debt. Students can access two loans of up to $11,800 over their lifetime to participate in these courses. It is a really sad and rather shameful reality that in a country like Australia the only way that students can access programs like this or any type of higher education is through being shackled by a burden of debt, a burden of debt that is increasing every year to obscene levels. What it tells you is that we are putting students, again and again, into a broken system. We should not be adding to that but we should be changing the entire system. That is what it's about, because there is no other way for students to access education.</para>
<para>Education is a public good. I don't know how many times I have said that in this chamber and out there, and I will keep saying it. The Greens will keep saying it. University and TAFE should be free and student debt should be wiped, and I will be moving a second reading amendment to that effect. We will also be moving amendments, in the committee stage, to tackle the current student debt crisis, to abolish indexation and to raise the minimum repayment income to the median wage for all study loans, including this one which is the startup.</para>
<para>I want to take a moment to call out the coalition's hypocrisy on student loans. The coalition is a party who, when they were in government, for the last 10 years or whatever it was, continuously attacked universities, staff and students. There's a very long list of these attacks that they have made. They tried so hard—I think it was under Prime Minister Tony Abbott at that time—to deregulate fees, which would have added an immense amount of debt to students.</para>
<para>There were funding cuts in their time. They vetoed ARC grant applications that didn't fit in with their far-right ideology. To top it all off, under the cover of COVID, in 2020 they created the disastrous job-ready graduates program, and it is the coalition who doubled the fees for degrees, like arts and commerce, to more than $14,000 a year. All that scheme did was to condemn generations of students to decades more of debt and push universities into strife, because it was a funding cut. So it's rich of them to stand up here and say how concerned they are about student debt. You were in government for 10 years. You could've done something about student debt. But you didn't. In fact, you did the opposite. What that particular program did was: it further entrenched gender inequality, as women, overwhelmingly, study the courses which were hit hardest by the fee hikes, incurring more and more student debt.</para>
<para>Also the coalition, in April, just a couple of months ago, teamed up with the government to reject my bill, which was to abolish indexation and all student loans and to raise the minimum repayment income to the median wage. Labor sat with the coalition to vote against measures that would have provided relief to students, even though they knew that there was a pretty easy opportunity to do something, to take a step forward, to deal with the student crisis. You could say, as to the coalition, 'Better late than never,' but I'm sorry—I am sceptical about their motivations and why they're doing this. Those in the coalition have an opportunity to prove that they are really serious about doing something about the student debt today. If the coalition really cares about the student debt and how students are suffering and the hardship that they are facing because of their debt plus the cost of living crisis, then they can very enthusiastically support the Greens' amendments to this bill to abolish indexation and raise the minimum repayment income to median wage so that people only start paying off their loan when they earn a decent income—otherwise, it is just opportunism on their part, and no-one will be fooled by it.</para>
<para>Let me now come to the party of the government, the Labor Party, and the lack of any action from this government to address the unjust, unfair and ever-increasing burden of student debt. For months and months, almost every day, we have heard stories about how student debt is harming people. It is beyond clear that it is a deep crisis. People are anxious about their debts, for good reason. Student debt is locking young people out of the housing market, stopping them from getting married or starting a family. Student debt is crushing their dreams of further study and taking longer and longer to pay off. I have heard heart-wrenching stories—and a lot of them were coming from women, who said that they would never have gone to uni if they'd known that they would end up with such a huge amount of debt. That debt will, under Labor, come next June, go up by about 15 per cent. Student debt is actually stopping young people from having a carefree life and having a bit of fun, at a time in their lives when they should be doing that. Students who are doing two to three jobs still cannot afford to pay rent; they still cannot afford to make ends meet. It is stopping them from pursuing hobbies, from socialising with their friends and from just being young people and enjoying their lives. Student debt, as I said earlier, is further entrenching gender inequality, with women having larger debts. And of course we know the gender pay gap is still a reality, where women earn much less.</para>
<para>Millions of people became worse off on 1 June when student debt was indexed by an astonishing 7.1 per cent. Now, for people with a debt, their debt is rising faster than it can be paid off.</para>
<para>Despite the problem being so acute and getting much worse, the government is sitting on its hands. The only thing it can tell you is: 'The university accords process—everything will go into this magic pot, this magic pudding, and let's see what it comes out with.' But the government has the jurisdiction to do something about a pressing higher education issue right now. They don't have to wait for a process which will take a year, and then years more to implement, if it comes up with some good recommendations. We're debating this bill here; you brought this bill here. This bill is not more important than actually dealing with the student debt crisis, so while the process is going on you can still bring on education bills and get them debated. Why not do something useful and actually help the students, rather than saying, 'Sorry, we can't do anything until the university accord is over'? Our higher education system, the way it currently stands, is setting up students to struggle. But we're not debating that. You stopped—you gagged—debate on our bill on that, but we're sitting here debating a bill about a start-up program. It will be useful for students, but it just adds to their burden.</para>
<para>The government can do so many more things right now than doing this. Like I said, get rid of indexation. There are students who are doing mandatory placements for weeks as they do their uni degrees—for months in some cases—which they're not paid for. They might actually have to give up their jobs to do that. Or they finish their placements at 5.00 and run off to another job at 5.30. The government can actually pay those students for doing the mandatory placements. The government can raise stipends for PhD students to at least the minimum wage. The government can extend paid parental leave to PhD students. The government can lower the age of independence from 22 to18, and raise students' social security payments above the poverty line to at least $88 per day. That's what we need to do. But, instead, while they can't afford all of that, the government have chosen to commit $368 billion for dangerous nuclear submarines and are gifting, on a platter, $313 billion to the wealthiest in stage 3 tax cuts.</para>
<para>Students do deserve a system which allows them to thrive and survive. Students deserve free education, whether they're leaving school, changing careers, retraining later on in life or looking to gain new skills and knowledge. Education is a right—that should be the basic tenet of this country. It is a public good, it is not a privilege! It is not reserved for those who can afford to pay. Like I said: ultimately, university and TAFE should be free and all student debt wiped. No-one—no-one!—deserves to be shackled with tens of thousands of dollars of debt which in many cases will take a lifetime to pay off in order to pursue higher education. I will be moving a second reading amendment to that effect.</para>
<para>Labor's lack of will to act on student debt and their weird kind of overprotective justification by saying, 'Oh, the current student loan system works,' are so out of touch with the reality of what people with student debt are facing. Labor needs to admit that this system is broken and that millions are suffering because of that broken system. Remember—you probably won't—that you were the party of the Whitlam government, which introduced free education and that our Prime Minister benefited from that. It is pretty shameful that the Prime Minister and this government aren't willing to allow the same benefit to people today. You can afford to act on student debt. The only question is whether you care enough to or not.</para>
<para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate notes that this bill does nothing to mitigate the student debt crisis at a time when student debts are increasing at an out-of-control pace, and calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) recognise that education is a public good which should be free and universal;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) make university and TAFE fee-free; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) wipe all student debt".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023. I just want to reaffirm to those people who are listening to this debate, that we're actually in Canberra. We're not in <inline font-style="italic">Utopia</inline>, with the comments that are made constantly by the Greens party about the Labor government and the coalition. These are the very people who in this place this morning got into bed with the coalition to stop us being able to continue to debate the Housing Australia Future Fund—$10 billion that this government was putting forward for social housing. These are the same people that cry—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order, Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would ask you to direct the senator to the fact that we are debating the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, there is absolutely no point of order. Resume, Senator Polley.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's a home run as soon as they take a point of order because they don't like anyone coming into this chamber and putting the facts before the Australian people. And the facts are, whether you're talking about education or whether you're talking about housing, that when those two, the Greens and the Liberals—better known as the 'no-alition'—get together they cry wolf about social housing, but when they have the opportunity to vote on legislation for a $10 billion future fund then they come in here and talk about education. They start off saying that the Labor government and the coalition are in cahoots with one another. Make up your mind! The reality is we could today pass legislation that will enact a $10 billion future fund for social and affordable housing—right here, right now, we could do that—on top of the $2 billion the Prime Minister announced at the weekend. But what have we got from the Greens and the 'no-alition'? They have tag-teamed here to stop any further debate on the Housing Future Fund until October, so we will see 30,000 fewer homes being built at the behest of the Greens and 'no-alition'. That's what will happen.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: I think Senator Polley is really stretching the friendship. We are talking about education, not housing. I'd ask you to ask her to direct her focus on the bill before the Senate, please.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Henderson. We know these second reading debates can be extensive and wide-ranging as we've sat through them for many, many years. Senator Polley, you have a contribution to make to this bill.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's really good to hear that people are actually listening to my contribution not only on higher education but on housing, two of the most important issues to be addressed in this place. This bill will amend the Higher Education Support Act 2003, HESA, to establish a startup year program in our universities. The goal of education is the advancement of knowledge, of our communities and of society. We collectively know that the Minister for Education, the Hon. Jason Clare, has said that universities can change the world. Well, of course they can, and we are delivering legislation to support students going forward. These institutions are institutions of knowledge and progress. They assist society to move forward, and that is what this bill is aiming to progress.</para>
<para>Universities will be working hand in hand with startup ideas from concept to commercial application, through higher education based accelerator programs. Just as entrepreneurial enterprises and startups go together, so must startups and universities. A startup is a company that is in the initial stages of business, and the earlier that universities can have input into a startup business the better. In 2020 over 3,000 new jobs could be attributed to Australia's eight most successful startups. The Tech Council of Australia estimates new tech startups can contribute 30,000 new jobs and $7 billion in value by 2030. This equates to extraordinary capacity from a knowledge and jobs perspective.</para>
<para>As a Labor government we must support the development of the skills needed to drive startups and technologies of the future. Therefore, the Albanese government will extend up to 2,000 income-contingent loans each year to eligible students participating in higher education based accelerator programs. These will be programs which build skills in entrepreneurship and connect students with support, mentorships and facilities that are needed to develop the startup ideas, and I've seen some of those already in practice in my home state. Just recently I visited and heard some of the wonderful stories about that. Being able to mentor and give guidance is really important to new startups.</para>
<para>The loans will be available to final-year graduate students, current postgraduate students and recent graduates as new loan types under the government's existing Higher Education Loan Program. The amount of assistance will be tiered to the maximum student contribution amount for medicine, dentistry and veterinary science, which is set at $11,800 under funding cluster 4 of the Higher Education Support Act. The bill also provides for guidelines which will contain further detail on the operation of the loans, including the process of allocating loans and registering eligible accelerator courses under the program. As the minister stated, it is essential that places be prioritised for courses which demonstrate greater engagement with, and participation of, underrepresented groups. Among those groups are female entrepreneurs, First Nations Australians, people with disabilities and community based startups which are working on regional and rural issues.</para>
<para>In relation to that, I'd like to make a special note of my home state of Tasmania, which will benefit greatly from this project. Tasmania has been responsible for many successful startups, especially in the IT industry, so I welcome any collaboration which makes it easier for young Tasmanians to find meaningful employment in a field they are particularly passionate about.</para>
<para>Consistent with other HELP loans, Startup Year loans will be paid back through the taxation system once an individual's income rises above the compulsory repayment threshold. This means that people pay what they can afford and they don't pay more if they don't earn more. This measure ensures people are not deterred from studying, because we know the cost of living is the most significant issue facing Australians right around the country. This removes a significant roadblock to participation in accelerator programs and will encourage a broader, more diverse range of programs to be available to a larger cohort of participants. Eligible students will be able to receive a maximum of two Startup Year loans over their lifetime, and students who undertake an accelerator course and access a Startup Year loan will be able to access a range of student payments, as long as they meet the other criteria. The program will start with a pilot program commencing this year, in July 2023, with a full rollout in July 2024.</para>
<para>The bill will also amend the Australian Research Council Act 2001 to apply current indexation rates to funding for the 2022-23, 2023-24 and 2024-25 financial years and insert a new funding cap for the 2025-26 financial year, resulting in an additional appropriation to the ARC of just over $1 billion. As a government, we must ensure that the Australian Research Council can continue to support Australia's research sector by funding the highest quality of fundamental and applied research to deliver real cultural, economic, social and environmental benefits for all Australians. The measures in this bill will further the Albanese Labor government's commitment to supporting young Australians. Education, small-business startups and our universities are at the forefront of knowledge across the country.</para>
<para>Time and time again, we hear the Greens come into this place talking about education and saying, 'Everyone should have free higher education and free TAFE.' Well, in the last budget we invested in free TAFE for those areas of skills that we need in this country, because there was a complete lack of investment into skills and training by the former Morrison government. They neglected TAFE, and it's going to take some time to rebuild that. But what I really get a giggle out of is when the Greens come into this place and want to create a utopia. At a time when there's pressure on us with the cost of living, we made sure that money in the last budget was prioritised to those people who need it most. We want to invest even more money in housing because, quite frankly, if you don't have a safe roof over your head then it's very hard to go and be able to apply yourself, whether at primary school, high school, university or TAFE.</para>
<para>That's why it concerns me when untruths are circulating within the community about the fact that this government isn't there providing the money needed for social and affordable housing. Quite frankly, that is not true. A sign of the commitment that the Labor Albanese government made over the weekend for an immediate $2 billion to be shared around states and territories to provide social housing should convince the Greens and their supporters that we're serious about this. This is why I'm so passionate about them getting out of the way of this legislation. Ten billion dollars for a future fund for social and affordable housing is critically important. What the Greens failed to do—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Sen</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Under section 194, subsection (1), a senator may not anticipate discussion of another bill on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, second readings are very far-reaching, so Senator Polley continue. I'm sure you've got more to say about this.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I certainly have. And somebody's been reading their standing orders. Well, you hit the mark. The opposition are well known for it. I love it, quite frankly. They've been here for a while now, and they don't seem to get an understanding of it. When you either interrupt me or take a point of order, it's fruitless. Because there's no standing order on being able to talk about a bill that is already on, and I had started my speech on that. But this morning it was the 'noalition' and the Greens that stopped me from being able to speak on that very bill.</para>
<para>I consider housing a secure home for those people most in need. It's a fundamental right for them to have it. But the delay that the Liberals, Nationals and Greens have supported today will put off that debate until October—and we are just at the beginning of winter. I see in my home state, particularly in Launceston, because I've been delivering food and knitting scarves for homeless people, how many people are actually living in cars or in tents. I would never admit this outside of this chamber, but sometimes Launceston gets as cold as Canberra. What we really need is immediate support. We need the Greens and the 'noalition' to get with the program and vote on that legislation.</para>
<para>We need more money to go into education. But the government has come in after 10 long years of neglect of the education system. In just about every state, from primary school to high school, our education attainment and the level of literacy is going down, even here in Canberra. I heard it on the news. In the national capital of this great country, literacy is going down. That's right here in Canberra. So I will always get up and speak about those issues that I believe are really important. Education is so important. If you don't have an education, you don't have skills and you don't have a house or a secure place that you can call your home. It doesn't have to be grand; it has to be your castle. Wherever and however that's constructed, that is your place of refuge. Every Australian deserves to have that peace of mind.</para>
<para>That's why I'm so passionate about those on that side. They left an enormous mess and a huge debt that generations will be paying off. But, time and time again, we have come in and said that we are open, transparent and putting people first. To do that and to deliver on our election commitments means that those people in this chamber need to respect the Australian people who voted for a Labor federal government. Let us do our job. Don't play politics. For the Greens wanting to come in and turn this place into a utopia again, it's not going to happen. That's not the real world. You might want to have these clips for your social media, but it does not put a roof over people's heads—it does not! Coming in here trying to claim that you're the only people who have a heart and think about those who are less well off is quite frankly disingenuous to other people in this chamber. All of us in this chamber—well, most of us, anyway—come here with the best intentions. We do, absolutely. I commend this bill to you, and I urge those people on the other side not only to support this bill but to reconsider the housing future fund. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the bill that's before us right now, the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023. You'll be pleased to hear that I seek to be relevant precisely to the bill that's before us, Mr Acting Deputy President.</para>
<para>It is fantastic to see that the government agrees with the coalition that growing our economy and encouraging the development of new businesses are central to Australia's future. The coalition has a fantastic track record of encouraging and nurturing homegrown startups and local entrepreneurs. However, I was disappointed to see that the coalition's established Entrepreneurs Program was savagely cut by the Albanese Labor government in the last budget, which we saw delivered by Dr Chalmers. Thankfully, the government chose to adopt, and will deliver, the coalition's $2.2 billion university commercialisations package, which is good. But this amendment, to introduce a new category of student loans, aims to support students participating in higher-education accelerator programs. This might sound excellent, in theory: boosting accelerator programs that will help grow the Australian economy and provide additional opportunities for young Australians to set up their own businesses and startups. But unfortunately, coming from Labor, this sounds too good to be true—and often it is.</para>
<para>Sure enough, closer inspection reveals that it is yet another half-baked policy idea from the Labor government, that once again hasn't done its homework. So far, Labor haven't got a very good track record with answering questions. We've seen that with this bill. I am the deputy chair of the Senate Education and Employment Committee, and we held an inquiry into this legislation. Senator Henderson was with us throughout that inquiry, and through it we discovered that this government is yet again refusing to answer questions or provide details to the particular elements of their programs. It's very, very disappointing. It's a recurring theme that we're seeing—but I digress.</para>
<para>It's notable for supporting our young Australians who want to create their own work opportunities and career pathways in life, but, when we look at the specifics of this bill, a lot of detail is lacking. The value proposition behind this funding is opaque, and that's at best. We are setting up these young, budding entrepreneurs and business owners to take on an additional debt of up to $23,600 without obtaining any kind of academic credentials or something with any tangible value. With an ordinary HELP or VET student loan, students are actively working towards a tangible qualification, which is a good thing. Stakeholders and universities have raised some serious concerns about this legislation, and it's obvious that their input has fallen on deaf ears—as usual. What we have right now is an arrogant government with a revived militant, single-minded union movement whispering in their ears, urging them to discard what is best for our country in favour of what is best for the fat cats and the top dogs in the union movement.</para>
<para>Ignoring key stakeholders, important stakeholders, who are involved across our education system—in particular, stakeholders like Universities Australia and the Regional Universities Network—in favour of placating their union mates at every turn is what they are doing. These stakeholders provided important recommendations and suggestions that, sadly, have been ignored. These stakeholders want clarity and detail around the purpose and value proposition of this proposed fund. They want clarity and detail on its objectives, on which course models will be accredited and on eligibility criteria for accelerator programs. They want to know. They've got questions like: How will students be selected to participate? How is the allocation of the 2,000 places to be determined? What can the funding be spent on? What about students in the regions? What about international students, who do not make up a significant part of the student cohort at many universities? This lack of clarity is alarming, yet, as I've said, it is unsurprising from this government.</para>
<para>The stakes are high, and the government seems blind to the fact that 97 per cent of startups exit the market or fail to grow. Are we just setting up these students to fail? Is that what we're doing? We have plenty of questions that have gone unanswered. Stakeholders have plenty of questions that have gone unanswered. This government will argue that it held consultations with stakeholders and that the department conducted a student survey on the proposed design. According to the consultation paper that was provided when they were engaging with the sector the intention of the program is to:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… enable students to participate in university accelerator programs, with the view of commercialising good ideas and injecting new business dynamism into our economy.</para></quote>
<para>While this might seem like a noble and, dare I say, lofty intention, the practicalities bring this issue thudding back down to the cold, hard earth.</para>
<para>Universities Australia is the peak body representing Australia's 39 comprehensive universities. They've called out the Albanese Labor government for its shoddy work. Let me read what was in their submission:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Through consultations with members, it is evident that more clarity around the purpose and outcomes of the program is needed. It is unclear to our members if this is a practical educational program aiming to build a pool of skilled entrepreneurs with experience in the startup ecosystem, or if the aim is to create new firms.</para></quote>
<para>If this already isn't sounding too good, it gets worse. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Student startups are not typically funded through loans, as it is unknown when the loan will be repaid. Angel investors are the normal source of capital.</para></quote>
<para>There's no mention anywhere in this bill of angel investors—nothing in this legislation. There's no mention of those experienced individuals who are able to guide and mentor these students on their startup journey. Not only does this cut the students off from the valuable source of information and hands-on experience but these inexperienced students will also end up carrying the risk and the cost of this program along with the universities.</para>
<para>The Group of Eight represents Australia's leading research-intensive universities. During the consultation, they reiterated a very important point. I'd like to read it to you. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… typically these programs admit only the best ideas or "pitches" from students and alumni through a competitive process.</para></quote>
<para>That is an important part, yet it's lacking in this model. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The focus is to advance the best ideas with a realistic possibility of success—noting the high level of failure inherent in startups.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">… the primary objective of Startup Year must be clearly articulated in the interest of maintaining the simplicity and effectiveness of the program. Specifically, whether Startup Year is intended to directly support the development of startups through accelerator programs or to more generally support education and training in skills related to startups.</para></quote>
<para>What we're seeing is a lack of rigour around who will be provided with funding and what sorts of pitches will be provided with support. The normal process of needing to pitch to an investor, someone who's got a bit of skin in the game, ensures that the student—the young, budding entrepreneur—is provided with the very best opportunity. Because of that rigour before you've even got the funding, you're able to have your idea teased out and the best possible projects are supported. But it's not so with this program.</para>
<para>The Australian Technology Network of Universities is the body that represents six of Australia's most innovative and enterprising universities, including Curtin University in my home state of Western Australia. These universities have already developed their own startup and accelerator programs. They support thousands of student entrepreneurs by hosting hundreds of startup micro businesses on their campuses. The HELP program exists to help reduce the financial risk to students but, again, with this new loan category, as they've said, there's a high risk of students exiting startups with fewer tangible benefits than students undertaking an established qualification. What we could end up with is students being saddled with debt without an outcome. It's one thing to take up a debt through a student loan—through HECS or FEE-HELP—and you have a qualification at the end of it. But it's another thing entirely to take on debt without something tangible to show for it; that just saddles people up with that debt.</para>
<para>Students don't have deep pockets and they can't afford to be plunged into debt with very little gain, especially during what we're seeing right now: the Albanese Labor government's cost-of-living crisis. The pressure is on and the clock is ticking. The startup year is scheduled to begin on 1 July; that's only a few weeks away. These universities have been on notice for almost a year, and yet because this government is not ready our universities have been left to flounder. Not one startup-year course has been proposed yet and yet it's commencing in just a few weeks. How could there be, with such shambolic and nonsensical legislation put before us?</para>
<para>Instead of rushing this bill through, like all others, I would urge the Labor government to step on the brakes, to listen to the feedback, to share the results of the consultation and to get in behind the amendment that Senator Henderson has moved here. They should get in behind that amendment, which does exactly that—it just pumps the brakes for a bit. Let's get some detail and some rigour around this. But I have to say that I'm sick of standing up here and having to call this sort of stuff out when it seems to be that way for so much of the legislation brought before this place. I urge the Labor government to stop bringing forward half-baked policies cooked up in a dream. Bring forward solutions with detail that we can actually consider. Sadly, we don't have it with this.</para>
<para>While this bill may be well-intentioned, the detail, as per usual, is lacking. In its current form, the coalition cannot support such a risky bill. It will put more pressure on our students, especially during this ongoing and serious cost-of-living crisis. I urge the government, as I said, to consider this second reading amendment—and I know that there will be other amendments through the committee stage—which seeks to improve this bill by delaying it to make sure there's some proper rigour put around it. It's really important that we get this right, because we don't want to saddle students up with unnecessary debt, with debt that's going to weigh them down as they're embarking on their future careers. That's what this bill runs the serious risk of doing.</para>
<para>I urge the government to look out for all students during this devastating cost-of-living crisis, and I join with Senator Henderson in her remarks. I encourage students that there are many good programs out there which you really should look at, get behind and seek out the support of the government, entrepreneurs and philanthropy—seek out those levels of support. But this one is particularly risky and you should consider it carefully, if this bill is passed.</para>
<para>I urge the government to look out for students and to include our proposed safeguards for students, to protect them and to protect their futures. We must ensure that this startup year doesn't turn into a year of disaster for the bright, young entrepreneurs of the future.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023 in support of initiatives aimed at encouraging young people to start new businesses. Entrepreneurship is a trait that should be celebrated at every opportunity. We are facing some really big challenges in our communities, in our society and, indeed, globally: encouraging young minds to look for solutions, not only encouraging but supporting them in doing so, ensuring that they have the support necessary to bring these ideas, these dreams, into reality.</para>
<para>The ACT does a good job of this. We have the highest rate of new startups per capita in the country. Canberra is on track to become a world-leading innovation hub, a model city where we see a high degree of collaboration between multiple levels of government, some of Australia's best universities and research institutions, and a proud business community fostering a forward-thinking entrepreneurial culture. CBRIN, the Canberra Innovation Network, is doing fantastic work supporting a robust variety of early-stage startups here in the ACT. Their return on investment has been independently assessed as 50 to 1.</para>
<para>Like many of the local entrepreneurs I've met, I would love to see further investment in their programs from both the territory and federal governments. The ANU, University of Canberra and UNSW Canberra are all working actively in the commercialisation of local research. They are producing impressive spin-offs in areas like high-tech recycling, advanced manufacturing and precision fermentation. The Australian Catholic University and Charles Sturt University also have active business incubator programs based out of their interstate campuses. They've also expressed interest in increasing their engagement with Canberra's innovation ecosystem.</para>
<para>My consultation with these institutions has indicated in principle support for the intentions of the startup year initiative. Concerns have been raised, however, regarding the design of this program. Every accelerator program I'm aware of in Canberra is currently provided to participants for free. As Senator O'Sullivan pointed out, it's often funded by wealthy philanthropists who believe in young entrepreneurs, who believe in providing entrepreneurs with an opportunity and the support that they need. But they don't pay for it—because, as we know, as has been pointed out in this debate, a small fraction of startups are actually successful.</para>
<para>What we have here is a proposal that requires universities to start charging for these courses. We're going to take free incubators, start charging and, at the end of it, you're going to have a HECS debt. And maybe you don't end up with a small business. The intent has to be around getting startups off the ground, and I don't understand why we're introducing a debt facility for something that's currently free.</para>
<para>I understand this was an election commitment from the government. It sounds like a great idea when you first hear it but I believe the legislation, as it's been written, misses the mark. Its stated objective is 'to develop a person's skills, capabilities and connections for startup businesses'. But will it actually develop any startup businesses? We will likely see a number of startup courses, popping up at universities across Australia, with no assurances regarding their quality or whether they can deliver outcomes that we should be focused on, that we should be seeking here, which is more young people starting businesses.</para>
<para>There's also a risk that resources are pulled away from the existing accelerator programs that are already doing a great job for free. Canberra is home to some of the brightest minds in Australia—indeed, in the world—and our community wants to see those minds and their ideas funded and supported. Sending students further into debt so that they can be educated about startups, rather than funding their startups, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. I believe there's a strong case to instead see this money given directly to students with innovative ideas to help them turn their great ideas into exciting new businesses. This is actually consistent with Labor's initial policy announcement.</para>
<para>Again, I agree with the intent of this bill. It is good. We do want to drive innovation and we do want more start-ups, but what we see here is young entrepreneurs and students having to get into a course that then results in a HECS debt, rather than actually encouraging universities, and providing the support, to provide their students who are entrepreneurial and want to have start-ups spin out of the university with opportunities that are free, because we know that there are huge risks in the start-up ecosystem.</para>
<para>I think there is also an opportunity to support the excellent programs that already exist in this space and have a proven track record of producing new start-ups, like those run by CBRIN here in Canberra. It has a 50-to-one return on investment. They work with universities and provide expertise. They have successful entrepreneurs volunteering their time and mentoring. They are creating an ecosystem that is conducive to young people seeing their ideas become reality.</para>
<para>I understand that there have been a number of amendments circulated on this. I will continue to engage with the crossbench in these discussions to ensure that we do support young entrepreneurs and universities that are helping their students make their ideas into start-up businesses that are helping solve some of the huge challenges we face—start-ups that are pioneering new fields and creating new opportunities for us, such as quantum computing. We have start-ups here in Canberra looking at the recycling of plastics and other materials that are currently not recyclable. We have people doing innovation in food. There are a huge number of start-ups worthy of support. I have real concern with the potential founders going through an accelerator program and having a big HECS debt that they will one day have to pay off, with no guarantee that that start-up will actually be successful.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023. I commend the fantastic work of the Minister for Education on this outstanding piece of legislation that I know will improve the lives of thousands of Australians for years to come. This bill seeks to amend the Higher Education Support Act 2003 to create the Startup Year program, which is designed to support students participating in accelerator program courses as part of the Higher Education Loan Program, known as HELP.</para>
<para>The new Startup Year HELP is estimated to support up to 2,000 students and recent graduates each year, with a pilot program commencing in July this year and a full rollout in July 2024. Eligible students include those who are in their final year of an undergraduate degree, are enrolled in a postgraduate course or were awarded a qualification at the bachelor's degree level or above in the last three years. Importantly, the program will target support and prioritise underrepresented groups such as women entrepreneurs, First Nations people, people with a disability, and community-based start-ups working on regional and rural issues. The bill will also amend existing social security and student assistance legislation to allow Startup Year HELP funded students participating in accelerator program courses to potentially qualify for student social security payments, update and add funding caps for approved research programs, and apply indexation to existing amounts.</para>
<para>Estimates from the Tech Council of Australia found that 30,000 new jobs and $7 billion in value will be generated by new tech startups by 2030. That's why the Albanese Labor government is being proactive about supporting our thriving startup industries. Thanks to Labor's new Startup Year program, current students and recent graduates will have great opportunities to build important skills in entrepreneurship by connecting them with the support, mentorship and facilities they need to develop their startup ideas. In my state of Victoria we are home to a number of successful innovative startups including Linktree, Mr Yum, Zella and Startup Gippsland. They play a critical role in creating domestic jobs and commercialising brilliant ideas.</para>
<para>This bill is backed by the mandate of our constituencies because Australians want to see improvements in access to higher education. The new Startup Year HELP loan removes a significant roadblock to participation in accelerator programs and will encourage a broader, more diverse range of programs being made available to a larger cohort of participants. This bill strikes at the core of one of Labor's most renowned values, providing an education that is accessible and equitable for all. We are investing in a better and fairer education system because that is what Labor governments do—in fact, it is what we do best. I am so proud to be a part of the Albanese Labor government, which is supporting Australian students to upskill to expand their knowledge and experience and not forcing them to be out of pocket just to get the education that they need for the jobs that they want.</para>
<para>Labor's Startup Year program for budding entrepreneurs is just one example of our commitment to improve equitable access in our education institutions. This May's 2023 budget also saw $32 million in grants to update schools across the country. More than 20 local schools in my home region of Mallee, in regional Victoria, are set to benefit from Labor's budget. We are delivering better infrastructure and better equipment to help students right across Victoria achieve their best. Growing up in regional Victoria, I know firsthand that students and graduates in regional and remote communities don't have equitable access to education and especially don't have the same access to higher education based accelerator courses. Whether it is our new Startup Year program for budding entrepreneurs, providing fee-free TAFE courses for Victorians or improving school infrastructure and equipment across the country, the Australian people can rest assured that Labor is committed to improving equitable access to our education institutions. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In rising to speak to this bill, the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year And Other Measures) Bill 2023, I want to put on the table that there is absolutely no doubt, 100 per cent, that students need support. Students are doing it incredibly tough: students trying to live on the student allowance, students trying to live on the youth allowance, students struggling with having to work virtually full time and do full-time studies at the same time. They have got to work full time just to be able to afford to pay the rent, so there is absolutely no doubt that students need a huge amount of extra support. The question is: how should this support be given? And there are so many other ways that we could be supporting students. The Greens are supporting this bill because you can't stand in the way of extra support for students, but it is not to say that we think that this is the most appropriate way for us to be supporting the students. There are so many other ways that we could be supporting students.</para>
<para>One way of doing it to begin with of course would be to wipe student debt, but, rather than wiping student debt, what is this government doing? They are putting it up. The average student debt of $24,770 is going to rise by $1,758, and, for more than half a million people who have got debts of around $40,000, it is going to add another $2,840 to the student debt. If you are a student, you are struggling; you can hardly afford to eat, and you know that when you leave your studies you are going to have this massive debt that you have got to be able to cope with. But, at the same time as you are going to continue to be paying skyrocketing rents let alone thinking that you may be able to afford to buy a house, you have got this massive burden around your neck. There is so much that we could be doing to be helping students and setting students up for a positive life ahead. But, instead, what's happening is that there are so many people that are choosing to abandon their studies, even with supports like this, which I'm sure would be welcomed, because they cannot afford to continue studying. During the poverty inquiry, which I am chairing, we have heard story after story of students who are saying just how tough it is and how they want to be able to keep studying but they just can't afford to do it.</para>
<para>The other thing that we could be doing, of course, is making tertiary education free, or making all education free. I think back on my student years—yes, some 40 years ago now. We are a richer country now than we were 40 years ago. So why is it that 40 years ago I was able to get a tertiary education completely for free and today students are ending up with massive loans around their neck? All that this legislation before us today is going to do is increase the massive loan that they are going to have to lug around when they leave their studies.</para>
<para>I really want to commend my colleague Senator Faruqi for her important work on this piece of legislation, both through the Senate inquiry into this bill and through the amendments that she has circulated. She has foreshadowed an amendment to the second reading motion for this bill that calls on the government to wipe student debt, which would make a genuine difference to many students and graduates. I really urge the government to act on this issue because, if we want to be helping students, that would be a massively significant way to help them rather than adding to their debt burden.</para>
<para>The other thing that the government could be doing is raising the rates of student allowance and youth allowance above the poverty line. Nobody deserves to be living in poverty in this country. If you are studying, you cannot do your best at your studies if you are living in poverty. Even with the poverty payments of student allowance and youth allowance, too many students are locked out of them by an unfair system. A survey done by the National Union of Students found that being locked out of youth allowance negatively impacted students' financial wellbeing—86 per cent of the survey respondents said that—their mental health, according to 65 per cent, their education, according to 60 per cent, and their experience of domestic or family violence.</para>
<para>I want to share some of the direct accounts that were gathered by the National Union of Students in their powerful report. Jesse, aged 23, said: 'One day, a friend and I were having a chat about how much youth allowance and other payments from work we were receiving, and we realised that we were living way under the poverty line. That's when it really hit me that this isn't the way that I should be living right now.' Darcy, at the age of 23, said: 'Receiving the COVID supplement'—which, of course, was when allowances were above the poverty line—'was the first time in my life that I experienced financial stability, which was a real revelation to me. It's actually this easy to not suffer, and this is the choice that this government is making.' Sarah, aged 23, said: 'Receiving the COVID supplement in 2020 meant that I didn't have to stress so much about work and losing my job. My grades actually went up a lot during that period because I was able to focus more on my degree.'</para>
<para>I think it's really worth paying attention to this. If we as a country want to be doing our best—if we want to be building the skills, building the knowledge and building the workforce of the future—we need to be making sure that our students have got the ability to do their best. Currently, living in poverty and being burdened by massive amounts of debt is not the way to encourage students to be their best or to keep at their studies.</para>
<para>Another student said: 'If I'd received youth allowance payments, I would have probably, as a disabled person, been able to work less and focus more on my education. I ended up having to study part time and take time off in order to work and pay rent.' This is such a common story. Darcy, aged 23, said: 'The scariest part of it was that I needed to get verification from my parents that it was unreasonable for me to live at home.' That is a ridiculous barrier that people face in accessing youth allowance. Often, when it's not safe for people to live at home, it's difficult to get that proof, and people usually won't even have a relationship with their parents.</para>
<para>We can do much better than this. The choices that this government made are just that—they are choices. We could be choosing differently, just like 40 years ago: it was a choice that the government—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rice, it being 1.30, it's a hard marker, so I believe you'll be in continuation.</para>
<para>Debate interrupted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>29</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria: Warrandyte District, Victorian Government</title>
          <page.no>29</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to congratulate Nicole Ta-Ei Werner, the Liberal candidate for the Victorian seat of Warrandyte, who was pre-selected yesterday, from a very competitive field, by grassroots Liberal members. Nicole is 32, the daughter of Malaysian Chinese migrants, and an absolute dynamo with strong connections to the Warrandyte community. And she has already hit the ground running. Nicole, of course, has very big shoes to fill, in replacing the former member for Warrandyte and former Liberal minister Ryan Smith. Nicole works for food-relief charity Empower Australia. She would make a first-class member for the people of Warrandyte. She is a fighter, and she will fight hard to hold the Andrews Labor government to account.</para>
<para>In 2026, the Andrews Labor government must be voted out. This is a government which is bringing Victoria to its knees. This is a government mired in corruption allegations, in dirty deals, in jobs for mates and in punishing Victorians for working hard, including through measures such as the schools tax on independent and religious schools. This is a government driven by extreme socialist ideology. The most locked-down city in the world—who could ever forget? This is a government which is crippling our state of Victoria with massive debt, whilst funnelling billions into discredited projects like the Suburban Rail Loop, whilst, at the same time, turning its back on vital infrastructure projects like the Melbourne airport rail loop and Geelong fast rail. Victorians have had enough. This is a government which must go. This is a government which is destroying our state.</para>
<para>And I say: Go, Nicole! You will be absolutely fantastic.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Kennedy, Ms Janette Mary</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to remember Janette Mary Kennedy, a proud member of the Australian Labor Party, who, sadly, passed away on Friday 26 May this year. Jan joined the ALP in 1964 and has been a stalwart of our movement for decades. She was Labor through and through, starting her career as a nurse and joining the union movement at the age of 17. This was the start of a long career in the health sector, working as a maternal and child health nurse.</para>
<para>In 1975, Jan and other volunteers founded the Waverley community health centre. This centre grew into Monash Link and then became Link Health and Community, where I had the pleasure to serve on the board with Jan, prior to my time in this place. It was always obvious in our meetings that Jan's passion for community health had not been diminished at all since she'd founded the centre back in 1975.</para>
<para>Jan was a strong and effective advocate for the rights of women and for workers, both within the ALP and within our society. She stood as the ALP's candidate for the state seat of Bennettswood at the 1992 election in Victoria, and, of course, was essential to her husband's, Cyril Kennedy's, success as the state member for Waverley province in the Victorian Legislative Council from 1979 until 1992.</para>
<para>Thank you, Jan, for your decades of dedication to our party and to our movement. My condolences go out to Cyril, their children and grandchildren. Vale, comrade Jan Kennedy.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Broadcasting Corporation</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week, we saw the shocking decision from the ABC to cut 120 jobs across various newsrooms. This has been one of the biggest redundancies that the ABC has seen since 2020. It will result in local bulletins on Sundays being cut across the country. It is a terrible, terrible decision. South Australians deserve their own local news bulletin on Sundays. They deserve it on Mondays, they deserve it on Tuesdays, they deserve it on Wednesdays, Thursdays, Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays. Local news is essential, and it is absolutely gobsmacking that the ABC has taken this decision.</para>
<para>I wrote to the minister last week about this, and I'm glad to see that she has sought a briefing. But briefings are not enough. What we do know is that a decade of cuts from the previous government—starting of course with Tony Abbott and the coalition government—the ABC has been under funding cuts for over a decade, and it is time that they are fully reversed. The Albanese government must reverse all of those cuts, and today they still have not. There is a shortfall. So I urge the government to fund the public broadcaster better. And, to the ABC management: cuts to local news bulletins will only see less community engagement, less public interest journalism and more disinformation and rubbish from the Murdoch press. In a time of misinformation and the deliberate— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Change</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ANTIC</name>
    <name.id>269375</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In 1970, the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> reported, 'Weather experts fear air pollution, if unchecked, will bring on a new ice age.' In 1978, a documentary was made featuring Leonard Nimoy, of <inline font-style="italic">Star Trek</inline>, fame, who told viewers, 'During the lifetimes of our grandchildren, arctic cold and perpetual snow could turn most of the inhabitable portions of the planet into a polar desert.' In the late 1990s and early 2000s we were being told that humans had punched a hole in the ozone layer and that the sun's ultraviolet rays were going to kill us all.</para>
<para>Alarmist rhetoric about man-made climate change is nothing new. The United Nations and the media have been pushing it for decades, but, over time, the narrative has shifted from global cooling to global warming. In fact, several months ago, Greta Thunberg deleted a tweet from 2018 which read, 'A top climate scientist is warning that climate change will wipe out all of humanity unless we stop using fossil fuels over the next five years.' These prophecies of doom simply never come true. The polar bears are still here, the sea hasn't risen and the ozone layer is fine. But the point of this messaging is to make you afraid. Why? Because if a climate apocalypse is imminent then governments of the world can centralise their power and control, and control your actions with the so-called 'emergency'. It's a Trojan horse for globalism led by the United Nations and their puppetmasters, and the Chinese Communist Party.</para>
<para>This is not serving Australian interests. These entities are not serving Australian interests; they're trying to control us and they are trying to make us weak. That is the real emergency.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Safety</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak about the very serious matter of workplace deaths and injuries which have been in the media over the last few months. Too often, it's very clear that workplaces do not effectively protect their employees. I was checking the statistics as I was walking to the chamber and, sadly, as at 8 June, according to Safe Work Australia, 57 Australian workers have been killed at work this year. I'm very mindful of the work that was done in the <inline font-style="italic">They never came home</inline> report. Former deputy president Gavin Marshall and I were on the education committee at the time, and we took incredible evidence from around the country. Very passionate advocates right across this country were very concerned about the nature of death in their workplaces and a failure of governments to respond in ways that protected those sites and ensured that, instead of calling a workplace death an accident, it was actually investigated properly as an industrial death.</para>
<para>I'm very, very concerned, particularly about the construction sector, which seems to have had an incredible number of workplace deaths just in recent weeks. The reality is that, due to Australia's rugged landscape, we have a high percentage of Australians who are working in dangerous jobs. Whether in mining or farming, working with heavy machinery or in Australia's extreme heat, Australians do work in tough and dangerous conditions every day. We're tough and resilient, and we'll do the hard yards. But you should be able to go to work and know that there are certain protections to make sure that you come home to your family safely. Critical in that role are the unions who are a doorway to providing better protections in the form of workers' rights and support for workers where needed, and I want to acknowledge in particular the CFMEU for their incredible support of people, which continues to this day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal And Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It seems that activists on the Prime Minister's Referendum Working Group just can't help themselves. For months the Prime Minister has been telling Australians that the Voice would be 'a modest change' for a strictly advisory body, for which parliament would determine powers and functions. Activists on his hand-picked working group keep on contradicting him. They're drunk with power that they have not yet taken. They've said the High Court will play a prominent role in the Voice's powers and functions. They've said they eagerly anticipate constitutional changes. They've said they're looking to destroy the fabric of the Constitution, and, as revealed in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> newspaper this morning, one of them said that the power of the Voice will be to 'punish' elected representatives who ignore it. Thomas Mayo, an acknowledged socialist and unionist—and current board member of the Yes 23 campaign—has also been exposed as saying that the Voice is a 'vital step' to implement a race based rent tax. With half of Australia already under native title—and another 10 per cent pending—what's to stop Indigenous elites from doing this if we get a voice to parliament?</para>
<para>This is most definitely not about unity but about division based on race. That's what the Voice is all about. There is no acknowledgment of the 97 per cent of Australians who share this land and call it home. There is no acknowledgment of the contributions, sacrifices and achievements of Australians who built and defended this land at great personal cost. It's all about what the radical activists want: racism, socialism and lots and lots of Australian taxpayers' money. As I keep saying, why are we allowing only three per cent of population—if that—to have an extra voice in this parliament, when everyone elected to this parliament has the right and the ability to represent all Australians equally and in the same way?</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Health Care</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last month, I, like many in this place, received hundreds of emails from community pharmacists from across Australia begging us to fight against the Albanese government's ill-thought-out 60-day dispensing proposal. What is interesting is that we, on this side of the chamber, got back to those community pharmacists. The community pharmacists said that Labor senators didn't reply to their emails and indeed would hang up on them when the community pharmacists called them up.</para>
<para>In the lead-up to budget night, the Albanese government proposed to slash the viability of community pharmacies. The Prime Minister and his health minister did not speak to pharmacists in rural, remote and regional Australia. They did not speak to pharmacists in suburban and urban Australia. The Prime Minister did not even bother to pick up the phone to speak to his own pharmacist. If the Prime Minister and the Labor government had spoken to community pharmacists across Australia, they would have realised the devastating impact that this policy would have on the viability of small businesses and the availability of prescription drugs across Australia.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister can hide no longer. This morning, an independent report stated that a 60-day dispensing period would not just shut down 665 community pharmacies across Australia; it would cost 20,000 jobs. Pharmacies will have to restrict their opening hours and many of their free pharmacy services, including blood pressure monitoring. This is not just what the coalition has been saying would happen to the sector or what the Pharmacy Guild has been saying would happen to the sector; it is what the experts have been saying would happen to the sector. This side of the chamber will always be on the side of the community pharmacy because we know that the community pharmacy is on the side of the community—unlike the Labor Party, who are only on their own side.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Constitution: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today was a historic day, with the passing of the legislation that will enable a referendum on a voice to parliament. Like many Australians, this will be the very first referendum that I get to vote in, and I can't wait to vote 'yes'. The referendum will invite Australians to make a change to our Constitution—our nation's birth certificate; the document that lays out our collective intentions for the country that we are and the country that we hope to be.</para>
<para>This referendum is about two things: recognition and listening. The legislation that we passed today is an opportunity for non-Indigenous Australians to meaningfully respond to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. The late Yunupingu described recognition as a gift not to Indigenous Australians but from them. The Uluru Statement, given by 250 First Nations leaders over six years ago, is a generous invitation to walk together on a path of reconciliation.</para>
<para>I personally come to this debate inspired by the stories of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities in regional Queensland. During my very first speech in this place I spoke of Aunty Ruth and Uncle Alf and all of the Yarrabah community who led a critical campaign on the path to a successful 1967 referendum. Tomorrow, the community of Far North Queensland will meet to acknowledge the passing of Uncle Alfred Neal. I will have more to more to say about this, but I want to acknowledge his enormous contribution and the long path he has worn from 1967 to now. I also want to acknowledge all of the activists and leaders from the Torres Strait who have led us to this moment. I want to particularly acknowledge Mayor Mosby's work. He wore this around his neck as the Torres Strait Islander sign, the Masig Statement, in August last year. He put it around my neck as a symbol of a gift that is this generous proposal. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Immigration Detention</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This week is Refugee Week. It's an appropriate time to reflect that it has been almost exactly 10 years since offshore detention was restarted on 19 July 2013, a decade since the Labor government started sending to Manus Island and Nauru thousands of people who arrived in Australia by boat to seek asylum. This has become one of the darkest and bloodiest chapters in our country's story—and it is not yet over.</para>
<para>The following 14 people paid for it with their lives: Reza Barati, Sayed Ibraham Hussein, Hamid Kehazaei, Omid Masoumali, Rakib Khan, Kamil Hussain, Faysal Ishak Ahmed, Hamed Shamshiripour, Rajeev Rajendran, Jahingir, Salim Kyawning, Fariborz Karami, Sayed Mirwais Rohani and Abdirahman Ahmed Mohammed. We remember them and honour them today with a moment of silence in the Senate. They are not forgotten, and they will never be forgotten.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living, Energy</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's only been 12 months since the Labor Party came to power, but thanks to the PM, Mr Albanese, Australians are struggling through a cost-of-living crisis, with inflation at over seven per cent. Our Treasurer has thrown fuel on the fire with a big spending budget that will likely lead to another rate rise or, at the very least, delay any expected reductions.</para>
<para>Australians were promised $275 of cuts in our power bills. Instead, some people's power prices have gone up by 50 per cent, and they will keep going up. They will keep going up because of the government's plan to shut down cheap, reliable power in the form of coal and gas. The government says that they want to attempt to install 40 wind turbines a month and 22,000 solar panels every single day until 2030. There is also the cost of extending the grid and backing up these renewables with batteries. It will add billions more to the cost of power, and it will damage the environment.</para>
<para>Batteries are resource intensive to manufacture, and they're probably going to end up in a landfill at the end of their useful life. These are temporary solutions. They will all need to be replaced every 15-30 years because we know that the only thing that is renewable about renewable energy is the cost—that's it. For anyone paying off a mortgage, times are tough.</para>
<para>The record migration numbers are intensifying pressure on the housing market, adding to extreme demand and kicking renters to the curb. There are still two years left of this government until we can vote them out—two years. Let's just hope Australia hasn't gone broke by then.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Closing the Gap</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As shadow minister for child protection, I raise this: new data released just last week puts four of the 19 Closing the Gap targets on track. Only four is less than a quarter of the Closing the Gap targets. This means 15 targets—issues that affect real people—are not on track. I'm talking about child protection, life expectancy, learning, health, justice and safety. We see the emotion and elation roller-coaster from the Labor Party and the Prime Minister on these challenging and complex issues, but it needs evidence based decision-making and common sense to make a real difference. Emotion is not the answer. What is needed is high expectations and greater accountability.</para>
<para>On Aboriginal lands in South Australia, locals need improved infrastructure, less interference—not more—in their lives and the smartest people working on solutions. Today all Australians are doing it tough, and yet yesterday, today and tomorrow it is, unfortunately for them, all about Voice. For remote areas, fuel is around $2.49 a litre today. I saw a report on the weekend with the price of a single pumpkin at $28. These are real everyday issues for remote regional Australians. There are so many Indigenous commissioners, ambassadors, advocates, working groups, conventions and expert panels, as well as 11 federal parliamentarians and people who identify as Indigenous, who can provide advice to government and its executives. The Albanese government and the Minister for Indigenous Australians have got their priorities wrong. Australians are hurting, and disproportionately so. It's a shame your priorities are not focused on real people and issues that matter to them where they live every single day.</para>
<para>In my other shadow minister role, I'm focused on family violence. I also acknowledge it is International Day for the Elimination of Sexual Violence in Conflict.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sena</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>tor TYRRELL (—) (): How many homes do the Greens want built? Do they want any at all? They said they do. They just don't vote like they do. By voting down 30,000 homes, you are saying you'd rather have none at all. You're saying no to something and yes to nothing. Could the government do more and be more ambitious? Yes, but think of it like this: imagine you're hungry, you're starving, you're desperate and you need a meal right now, and then some generous stranger comes along and offers you some food—not a whole lot, less than it takes to feed you for a day but more than you have right now. Would you take the food? Would you be happy to feel like your stomach is full for a while? The Greens would argue that, if this stranger is not prepared to feed you as much food as you can take for as long as you live, you should refuse it and eat nothing. 'What's the point?' they'd say. 'You're still going to need more food afterwards. You'll be hungry next week.' They'd ask you: 'How's it funded? Was this food paid for by a gamble on the stock market? If it was, it's better to eat nothing.'</para>
<para>Tasmania is hungry for more affordable housing. We're desperate for it. I've negotiated to secure 1,200 homes for Tasmania in the next five years. That means we'll be building affordable housing faster than demand is growing for it. In other words, it's enough for the problem to start to get better, not worse. But the Greens refuse to support it. Tasmanian Greens senators are voting against a hot meal because it's only an entree. We're hungry, we're desperate and we need these homes. People are begging for food and the Greens are voting for hunger.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Constitution: Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>THORPE () (): I'd like to wish everyone a happy 'assimilation day'. I'm sure you all feel pretty stoked with yourselves. I see you even gave yourselves a nice round of applause. You are one step closer to solving the Aboriginal problem. Congratulations. I want to remind you that those feelings—the violence that this government inflicts every day—do not see a powerless voice in a racist Constitution as worthy of celebration. All the voices you have silenced violently are not clapping with you.</para>
<para>This country has a strong grassroots black sovereign movement, full of staunch and committed warriors—a movement this government has repeatedly ignored and refused to meet with. The black sovereign movement will not let what happened today get in the way of our sovereignty. It is a movement that thinks larger than the 200-year-old so-called Australian legal system. It draws on over 65,000 years of cultural knowledge and the law—our law of First Peoples, not the colonisers' law. Tomorrow, the black sovereign movement are coming here to parliament. We found some money; we scraped it together, and they're coming here to Ngunnawal and Ngambri country to talk truth to power. The black sovereign movement will be touring around this country talking truth and treaty. For everyone out there who wants to be guided by black excellence and black power, tune in and listen, and come on a truth and treaty journey with us. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Western Australia: Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act 2021</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">S</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>enator BROCKMAN () (): I rise today to continue talking about the failure of Labor governments at state and federal level to have any consideration for regional areas. At best, they ignore regional areas, and, quite frankly, sometimes regional areas are happy with that outcome. Sometimes they're happier to be ignored by state and federal Labor governments than to have the will of those governments imposed upon them, because, when that will is imposed without proper consultation, without proper inquiry and without proper governance processes, we see the failures borne by regional Australia over and over again.</para>
<para>The case in point, in my home state of Western Australia, is the Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act, which has been pushed through parliament. Labor has decisive numbers in the parliament of Western Australia—that is a fact—so they can push through whatever legislation they want without proper consultation, without proper oversight and without proper inquiry. Unfortunately, the results of that come home most heavily upon the bush and upon the regions. People aren't unreasonable in this space. They want an outcome that's fair. An e-petition organised by my previous employers, the Pastoralists and Graziers Association of Western Australia, has already attracted, in just a few short weeks, 25,000 signatures—not asking for the bill to be scrapped or for nothing to be done in this space but just asking for a six-month delay. That's all they want. They just want a bit more time because this bill was hastily rushed through parliament and the consequences of it are unknown and dreadful.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As Senator Farrell said earlier today, there was an axis of evil conspiring in the chamber today, and that axis of evil was on full show last week and again today. Today it was the Greens and the opposition delaying once again the build of 30,000 affordable and social housing properties in this country.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley, please resume your seat for a moment. Those on my left: please, we've listened to everybody else with quiet dignity. Could those on that side just do that for another few minutes? Thank you very much. Senator Polley.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There is a housing shortage in this country, and homelessness is an epidemic. Those opposite and the Greens had the opportunity today to vote on legislation to change that, but, because of the evil deal that they have done, they've shut down any further debate on the Labor government's future housing fund of $10 billion. That's what they've done. After 10 years of neglect by those opposite, when the Liberals and the Nationals were in government and did nothing at all about housing, we now have their friends over there in the corner teaming up with them to stop any future debate on that bill.</para>
<para>They come in here crying their crocodile tears, and when they have the opportunity to really address social and affordable housing they run to their mates on that side of the chamber. It is winter. We have the Midwinter Ball on Wednesday night, so I hope that everyone who has their hair done and gets dressed up in their lovely frocks worth thousands of dollars thinks of those people that are sleeping rough in Launceston, in my home state of Tasmania, in the middle of winter. Shame on you. Shame on the Greens. It just shows that you guys will get into bed with anyone to be able to stop the Albanese Labor government from delivering on housing and addressing the mess that you left by neglecting those most vulnerable in this community. There are women and children fleeing domestic violence who, because of you, won't have a house. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>34</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Members of Parliament: Staff</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Finance, Senator Gallagher. Minister, in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> newspaper on Saturday respected political commentator and author Paul Kelly wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Gallagher denied misleading parliament but the facts told something different—while she had told Senate estimates "no one had any knowledge" of Higgins's pending revelations, she admitted in her statement that "I was provided with information in the days before the allegations were first reported."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is obvious Gallagher misled the parliament.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, how can Australians trust your government if you won't admit what everybody knows—that you did mislead the parliament—and why won't you do the right thing and simply correct the record?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer Senator McDonald to a statement that I made at the beginning of last week on this matter, relating to the allegation that I had misled the Senate. Specifically I will say that when it started at Senate estimates on 4 June, when the Minister for Defence, Senator Reynolds, said that she knew where this started and then went on to say, 'I was told by one of your senators two weeks before'—I took that to mean two weeks before the story broke publicly—'about what you were intending to do with the story in my office two weeks before'—that is, two weeks before the story broke publicly—I was shocked by that. I refer you to the statement that I gave that goes through this and then my statement that I became aware of the details of the allegations being made in the days leading up to it then becoming public, and that is the difference.</para>
<para>So I have been upfront and clear with the Senate. At the time in a private meeting—and perhaps all of this could have been avoided if that meeting wasn't private, but it was private; it was held outside the Senate estimates room—I did say to Senator Reynolds and Senator Ruston at the time that I had been aware of the allegations in the days leading up to them becoming public.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> newspaper last Friday respected senior press gallery journalist Phillip Coorey wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Finance Minister Katy Gallagher, who was exposed by the text messages as misleading parliament two years ago …</para></quote>
<para>Minister, how can Australians trust your government when you refuse to admit that you misled the parliament? Why won't you just admit you made a mistake and simply correct the record?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer you to my previous answer. I can't control what people write about this. There has been opinion piece after opinion piece after opinion piece written about the specific issues of the last two weeks and there have been hundreds of opinion pieces written about the matters that led to a lot of change in this workplace—that is, the brave and courageous representations by a young woman who used to work in this place and the changes that have come from them. There have been so many opinions written. Those opinions vary. I can't control that, but I can control the information I provide here to the Senate. I take my responsibilities to the Senate very seriously. There was no misleading from my point of view. I did not know what was going to be made public when Senator Reynolds accused me of knowing that. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, on the ABC <inline font-style="italic">Insiders</inline> program on Sunday 12 June award-winning journalist Samantha Maiden said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I think it's open and shut that she's misled parliament.</para></quote>
<para>Senior gallery journalists David Crowe from the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline>, Simon Benson from the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline>and James Morrow from the <inline font-style="italic">Daily Telegraph</inline> have all said that you misled parliament. Minister, why do so many of the country's most experienced political observers agree that you misled the parliament while you refuse to make that admission? Why won't you correct the record?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer you to my earlier answer. I cannot control what other people write about this. Maybe they don't understand it. None of them have spoken to me about it. Certainly, they haven't spoken to me about it in the last few weeks. They are writing opinion pieces or making opinion comments. That's up to them, and good luck to them. But I can say what I was responding to that night. What I was responding to that night was an allegation that, two weeks before the allegations that Ms Higgins made became public, I knew about them and I'd made a decision to be part of making them public. That is not correct. I never did that. That's outlined in my statement, and I was clear with Senator Reynolds and Senator Ruston two years ago that I was aware in the days leading up to them becoming public. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal And Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Constitutional recognition through a Voice to Parliament started with Indigenous Australians. More than 1,200 First Nations representatives took part in nationwide consultations that led to the Uluru Statement from the Heart. It will allow First Nations people to finally have a say on policies and laws that affect our communities. The Prime Minister declared his commitment to the Uluru Statement from the Heart at almost every speech and rally during the election campaign, and Australians voted for change. What progress has been made in implementing the Uluru Statement from the Heart and a Voice?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is an honour to take that question from Senator Stewart, and it is an honour and a privilege to serve in a caucus with our wonderful First Nations caucus members who are represented in the chamber today and were ably spoken for by the wonderful Senator Malarndirri McCarthy on the third reading.</para>
<para>This is a big day. It's a day of great significance. It's a milestone which we will remember, and that is the passage of the Constitution alteration bill. It is worth remembering, as Senator Stewart has in her question, the history of how the Uluru Statement from the Heart came to be before this parliament in its first iteration of the request for a voice to the parliament. In 2017, after more than 10 years of consultation and conversation, hundreds of elders and leaders gathered at Uluru and, together, they wrote the Uluru Statement from the Heart. It says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We seek constitutional reforms to empower our people and take a rightful place in our own country.</para></quote>
<para>Today, we are one step closer to delivering that long, Indigenous-community-led process.</para>
<para>Constitutional recognition through the Voice is about two things: recognition and listening. I want to quote what the Prime Minister said today. He talked about the request, and he said this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… what shines so brightly at the very core of its gracious request is the desire to bring us all closer together as a people reconciled.</para></quote>
<para>He said this is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to lift our great nation even higher—</para></quote>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired) </inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Stewart, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Uluru dialogue centred around listening to and respect for local communities. Building on that, the Voice is about two things: recognition and listening. Can the minister explain to the Senate how that will happen in practice?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The senator is right: constitutional recognition through a Voice is about recognition and it is about listening. Recognition will make us as a nation stronger and more united by finally recognising our First Peoples, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, in our Constitution. It is also about listening, making sure we are listening, through the Voice, to our First Nations people on the issues that affect their lives. As Senator McCarthy said today, the Voice has the support of the vast majority of Indigenous people: around eight in 10 support a voice to the parliament. And the Voice referendum is an opportunity to take our nation forward. The Voice's advisory power means that people in Canberra can listen to and learn from our First Nations people before they make the decisions that impact them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Stewart, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEWART</name>
    <name.id>299352</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week, the Closing the Gap data shamefully showed that the gap is not closing. This highlights the need for structural change to improve outcomes for Indigenous Australians. How will listening to Indigenous communities through a Voice to Parliament help close that gap?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Stewart, not just for these questions but for the work you've done in your community. I think there's a pretty basic principle here: that if you work with people, if you work with rather than do to, you usually get better outcomes. As Senator Stewart said, we have four out of 19 Closing the Gap targets on track. Well, if we need any evidence that more of the same isn't good enough, I would have thought that would be it: life expectancy not on track, Indigenous babies born with a healthy birth weight not on track, and Indigenous people finishing year 12 not on track. We have to do things better, and that means working together, with the benefit of the wisdom and insights of our Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Australians across this country, our fellow Australians. This is about ensuring we can make lasting change together that can help us close this gap.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Members of Parliament: Staff</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the minister representing the Attorney-General, my fellow Queenslander Senator Watt. Does the Attorney-General agree that the Commonwealth should act as a model litigant in all legal matters it engages in?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, of course the Attorney-General considers that the government should act as a model litigant in each matter that it's involved in, and, as far as I'm aware, that's exactly how the Commonwealth acts, at least under the Albanese government. We do take those issues very seriously. It is important that the Commonwealth upholds that principle of being a model litigant, and I assure you that, particularly in the hands of an eminent barrister like Mr Dreyfus, the Attorney-General, that is the principle that we uphold. I know that we haven't always had attorneys-general in this country who have Mr Dreyfus's standing, both as a lawyer and as a person of principle, but we're very fortunate, I think, at the moment to have an Attorney-General who conducts himself in an appropriate way. I think it's excellent that we have an Attorney-General who, if asked to cooperate with the police, would do so, unlike previous occupants of this role. I think it's also wonderful that as the Attorney-General we have a man, in Mr Dreyfus, with the utmost integrity who has not just promised to deliver a National Anti-Corruption Commission but actually done so—again, unlike former attorneys-general that we have seen in this parliament.</para>
<para>So yes. I suspect that we're leading to a particular matter, and I will be happy to answer Senator Scarr's question about that, but of course this government takes its responsibilities to act as a model litigant seriously. Whether we're talking about that in civil proceedings against the Commonwealth or whether we're talking about it in proceedings that the Commonwealth elects to join or intervene in, it is always important that the Commonwealth upholds its responsibilities to be a model litigant.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I might note that the minister might do well to read judgements of the court before casting general slurs against previous occupants of the office. Minister, did the Commonwealth or its legal representatives always act as a model litigant during the mediation and settlement of the Ms Brittany Higgins claim against the Commonwealth?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senat</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>or WATT (—) (): Well, I was wondering which case we were going to be talking about, and I actually thought that not only Senator Scarr but other coalition senators might have realised that, after the way last week turned out for them, they might wish to move on to other topics. But, unfortunately, we see the coalition intent on continuing its pursuit of Ms Higgins through the parliament. Unfortunately, we see the coalition intent on pursuing matters that have been the subject of court documents leaked to the media and matters that have been the subject of text messages leaked to the media. As I say, I really would have thought that, after last week and the way that turned out for the coalition, they might have learned the error of their ways. But, obviously, they are either so rigid in their questioning or so lacking in principle that they've decided to continue it.</para>
<para>As we said last week, Ms Higgins's claim was managed consistent with the Commonwealth's obligations under the Legal Services Directions 2017— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My questions are in relation to a matter in the public domain. Minister, why didn't the Commonwealth or its legal representatives seek the views or evidence of the ministers or their officers whose actions were cited in the claim against the Commonwealth? How does that failure align with the Commonwealth's model litigant obligations?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Scarr. As I said in the answer to the previous question, Ms Higgins's claim was managed consistent with the Commonwealth's obligations under the Legal Services Directions 2017. The terms of settlement and the claim were managed in accordance with legal principle and practice and informed by external legal advice, and the parties agreed that the terms of the settlement and the settlement process, including mediation, are confidential. I would have thought that the lawyers in the opposition might have understood the meaning of 'keeping details of settlement processes confidential', but it would appear that that is unfortunately not the case, through these ongoing questions.</para>
<para>Now, Senator Scarr comes back at me, saying that these are matters in the public domain. I wonder how they got into the public domain. I wonder how it is that confidential court documents that were held only by a very small number of people ended up in the public domain. Who had those court documents, I wonder? Who had the opportunity to provide them to the media? I wonder who on earth that would be and I wonder who on earth would think it is sound to keep asking these questions. <inline font-style="italic">(Time exp</inline><inline font-style="italic">ired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Housing in the Senate, Senator Farrell. Minister, two-thirds of renters are experiencing rental stress. For many renters, one more unlimited increase to their rent will mean that they have to leave their home, and some will be priced out of the private rental market altogether. If there are no limits to the amount that rents can be increased, it won't matter how much public and affordable housing is delivered through the Housing Australia Future Fund. Unless we stop rents skyrocketing, wait lists for public housing will blow out and we won't be able to tackle the housing crisis. On the weekend, the government put money on the table through the National Cabinet in return for changes in planning laws. Minister, do the government accept that they can also do this to coordinate a rent freeze, just as the Greens have proposed?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my right! Senator Wong! Senator McKim! Senator Whish-Wilson! I should not have to single senators out. I have called for order.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Faruqi for her question. I have to say, Senator, on an historic day in this place, when we pass a piece of legislation that allows for, finally, a referendum on recognition of Indigenous Australians through a voice to parliament, it's a great shame that the Greens have chosen this particular day to vote down a piece of legislation—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senators on my right! Senator Farrell, if you'd direct your answers through the chair, please. Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So it's a great pity that on this historic day the Greens would choose to link a decision—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat again.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Shoebridge! There are many opportunities for you throughout the week to make a statement about the matters that you wish to. Question time is not one of them, particularly as I have called the right side of the chamber to order on a number of occasions. The minister is entitled to give his answer in silence. Minister Farrell, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know why the Greens are so embarrassed and keep interrupting me when I'm answering this question—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know why Senator Shoebridge is so—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. It's quiet now; you may continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know why the Greens are so embarrassed about what has happened today. Shame on you! You had an historic opportunity today to vote with the Labor Party to start—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, please resume your seat. Senator Whish-Wilson.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, President. You just directed Senator Farrell, who has ignored your direction as Chair, not to address the Greens directly. Could you please—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Whish-Wilson. I will draw that to Minister Farrell's attention. I have also spent a considerable part of the answer calling for order, particularly on the right and to the back of the chamber. I'd ask all senators to respect the directions I give. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will direct my response to you, President, in light of that direction, because I know that you know that what I'm saying about what the Greens did today in alliance, in cooperation, with what I earlier today described as an axis—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat.</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Order on my right! Government senators! Senator McKim, I think you also know better than to call out a point of order as you're standing.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. I do have a point of order, which is that Senator Farrell is reflecting on you as the President when he says that you know something. I ask you to require him to withdraw it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESI</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, it was not a reflection on me. Please continue, Minister Farrell.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand, President, why the Greens are so, so embarrassed and do not want me to answer— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, your first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, does the government have modelling on the number of people and families who will become homeless because of rental increases over the next year?</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Have you finished your question, Senator Faruqi?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Before I call Minister Farrell, I'm going to remind government senators to listen respectfully to the minister's answer.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Unfortunately, because there was so much noise I actually didn't hear the question. I wonder whether Senator Faruqi could repeat her first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, please repeat your supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>All the noise was from your side, by the way! Minister, does the government have modelling on the number of people and families who will become homeless because of rental increases over the next year?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll say this to Senator Faruqi: we don't need modelling to tell us that there's a serious problem with housing, homelessness and rentals in this country. We know that after their nine years of failing to do anything about it we're finally doing something about it. We're proposing to spend $10 billion on fixing this problem—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How much?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I can repeat that figure: $10 billion. Some of that money will go to women and children in crisis situations. Some of that money will go to veterans. Some of that money will go to assist Indigenous Australians. But the reality is that all of that money is going to help solve the problems of homelessness, rental accommodation costs and— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, is it the government's position that rental increases of any amount should be legal?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The first observation I would make is that the federal government doesn't control rents; that is a matter for the state. But if this legislation was to have been supported, rather than being rejected by the Greens political party today, we would already be on the way to resolving some of the issues which you pretend that you're interested in solving. We've got a solution here. You heard the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. Senator Faruqi?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is to relevance. My question was very tightly crafted and very straightforward about the government's position that rental increases of any amount should be legal.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Faruqi. Minister Farrell is being directly relevant to your question. Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> Thank you, President. Can I say to Senator Faruqi, just one aspect of the work that the Labor Party is doing to try and resolve this issue results in $600 million over the weekend, announced by the Prime Minister, to the people of New South Wales. We are serious about solving this problem. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired) </inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's good to be back here after a week on the sidelines. My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Housing and Minister for Homelessness, Senator Farrell. All senators in this place would be aware of the housing affordability challenges currently facing Australians. Thankfully, after a decade of inaction, the Albanese Labor government has an ambitious agenda to deliver more affordable homes. Can the minister, please, update the Senate on the immediate steps that the Albanese government is taking to deliver on more social housing rental homes for Australians who need them?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Ciccone. It's good to see you back. Unlike the Greens, I know that you are serious about dealing with the issue of housing costs and homelessness. And, of course, the Albanese government wants every Australian to have a roof over their head.</para>
<para>Fundamental to tackling the country's housing challenges is increasing the supply of new housing. Just this week, we announced $2 billion in social housing accelerator, which will deliver new social, rental homes right across this country, including in Victoria, your home state. This money will be flowing to the states and territories within weeks and must be committed within two years to deliver thousands—I repeat, thousands—of new social housing homes to rent right across the country.</para>
<para>Funding has been to ensure a minimum of $50 million for each state and territory. States will have the flexibility in how to permanently boost social housing stocks, including new builds, expanding existing programs or renovating or refurbishing existing but uninhabitable stock to bring it back to supply.</para>
<para>This investment will mean life-changing new homes for Australians currently on social housing waiting lists right across the country. This $2 billion social housing accelerator is in addition to our ambitious housing reform agenda that builds on the commitment of the Albanese government to deliver the housing that Australians desperately need.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ciccone, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for the very comprehensive answer, and it is reassuring to hear that the Labor Party is taking serious action on housing affordability in this country. It is a pity that the same can't be said of those opposite and those on the crossbench. Minister, can you, please, update the Senate on some of the other important measures that make up the ambitious housing reform agenda of the Albanese government and how they are addressing housing challenges for all Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I can, Senator Ciccone. The Albanese government has hit the ground running on housing, delivering immediate action along with an ambitious reform agenda. As well as the $2 billion social housing accelerator and the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund—which was rejected by the Greens today—in the budget we increased the maximum rate of Commonwealth rent assistance by 15 per cent. We've added an additional $2 billion in financing for more social and affordable rental housing through the National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation, we've created new incentives to boost the supply of built-to-rent accommodation and we've expanded eligibility criteria for the Home Guarantee Scheme. We've also delivered a $67.5 million boost to homelessness funding to states and territories— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ciccone, your second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Clearly the Housing Australia Future Fund is an important component of the government's ambitious housing reform agenda. Can the minister please explain how the Senate's failure to support the Housing Australia Future Fund will affect those Australians who are seeking a safe and affordable place to call home?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I can. Let's be clear: the decision today by the Greens—along with their partners, the coalition—was to reject the bill to establish the Housing Australia Future Fund. I'll just repeat that, because I hear somebody didn't hear me say it. The Greens, in conjunction with the coalition, rejected the bill to establish the Housing Australia Future Fund. Sadly, there is a cost.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know you're embarrassed! I know you're both embarrassed in the Greens-coalition coalition. Sadly, there is a cost for these actions, and it's a cost Australians will pay for the Greens teaming up with the coalition. For every day of delay, more than $1.3 million does not go to new social and affordable rental housing for Australians. But the greater cost is to the Australians who need these homes—the women and children trying to escape family violence. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired.)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal And Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. I refer to an article this morning on the front page of the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> newspaper regarding a member of the Referendum Working Group, Thomas Mayo. Does the Prime Minister endorse Mr Mayo's comment that the power of the Voice to Parliament was its ability to 'punish' elected members of this parliament that ignored its advice on funding and legislation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister and the government have made his and its views clear about why the Voice matters. As was discussed in great detail and at great length on Friday evening and Friday night and the early hours of Saturday morning, the Voice is about two things. It's about recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in our Constitution and it's about listening to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people on matters that affect them. We've been clear about the principles associated with that. It does ensure that the Voice will give independent advice to the parliament and the government. The minister representing has gone through the principles, which I can read out again and I think were read out on many occasions in the committee stage and elsewhere in the debate.</para>
<para>I would make the point, Senator Hanson, that I understand what your position is. I thought it was made very clear this morning. I disagree with it, but—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Senator Hanson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order about relevance to my question. Does the Prime Minister endorse Mr Mayo's comment that the power of the Voice is its ability to punish elected members of parliament that ignore its advice? It's a direct question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson. The minister is being direct to your question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What I was trying to say, Senator Hanson, is: I understand the position you have, which is to oppose. I take a different view, as do the senators on this side. The Prime Minister's position is the position that has been outlined by the government minister responding in the Senate, over and over again. We've gone into great detail about how the Voice will operate and the fact that it will not have a veto power and will not have a program delivery function. Others can choose to articulate this how they wish. The government will choose to articulate our view about how the Voice will work. The advice will be independent, and it will be chosen by Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It will be representative. It will be empowering, community led, inclusive, respectful and culturally informed. It will be accountable and transparent. It will work alongside existing structures, and it will not have a veto power.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As usual, you have failed to answer the question. Do you endorse it or not? I got no answer out of you. Will the Prime Minister rule out establishing seats in this parliament reserved exclusively for Indigenous Australians if the Voice makes a representation demanding it—yes or no?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the second question, that's not something that the government is proposing and it's not something that the government took to the last election. We took, very clearly, to the last election a Voice to the parliament, and we are seeking to deliver on that mandate. In relation to your first question, I appreciate that you don't like my answer, but I am entitled to give you the answer that I believe is correct in response to your question.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In other words, you're not ruling out the fact that there could be Indigenous-only seats in this parliament. My question is: will the Prime Minister rule out the establishment of an independent, sovereign Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander state in Australia if the Voice makes a representation demanding it? You want the Voice to Parliament. If they asked you the question, would you actually consider an independent Indigenous state?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not something the government is proposing, and I believe that that question was asked and answered in the debate that we had in the chamber overnight on Friday.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pharmaceutical Industry</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Gallagher, the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care. The opposition supports Australians having cheaper and easier access to medicines. However, your government is claiming credit for a cost-of-living relief measure that is actually being paid for by 5,900 community pharmacies. Now it has been reported that modelling shows that up to 665 pharmacies may close as a result of your approach of forcing community pharmacies to pay for your 60-day dispensing policy. Minister, will you guarantee that no pharmacies will close as a result of your government's policy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Ruston for the question, and it is an important one—the changes that we are introducing around 60-day dispensing—because it will make medicine cheaper for more than six million Australians. I note that the Pharmacy Guild has commissioned a report as part of their opposition to this change. I haven't had time to go through it all, but I am advised that the government does not agree with the assumptions underpinning the report and the conclusions drawn from it. Senator Ruston and I did have quite a lengthy session on this at estimates, where we went through the impact analysis that had been done. We did discuss issues around pharmacy and pharmacy viability. I think that the work that the government has done through its impact analysis is clear. This will save—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please resume your seat. Senator Ruston.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance, President, I specifically asked the minister in relation to a commitment that no community pharmacy would be forced to close.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There were also other points in your question, and the minister is being relevant to the question. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government is keen to work with the community pharmacists. We want a strong and viable community pharmacy industry right across Australia. We remain open to talking with all pharmacists about the implementation of this change, but I would say that this change has been recommended since 2017-18, I think, when there was expert advice that this change should come in—that people could save money for a select group of medicines for a select group of patients, where their doctor approves it, and that they would have to do less trips to the pharmacy—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Gallagher, please resume your seat. Senator Ruston.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I raise a point of order once again on relevance, President: I was not asking about the support this is giving to Australians. In fact, I made the comment that the opposition supports cheaper and easier access to medicines. I was merely asking the minister to confirm or deny whether any pharmacy will close as a result of this policy.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You made reference to that report, and the minister has also made reference to it and is being directly relevant to your question. Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government is investing $1.2 billion into pharmacies for ongoing programs to make sure that they can continue to do what they do and in fact grow the services they offer. We want a strong and vital community pharmacy sector. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As reported today, 20,000 pharmacy jobs may be lost and access to free medical services at local pharmacies may be ripped away from vulnerable Australians as a result of Labor's 60-day dispensing policy. Minister, will you guarantee that your government's implementation of this change will not result in job losses in the sector or have an impact on Australian's access to critical primary care through their local pharmacy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can say that the government remains committed to working with community pharmacies in ensuring that they continue to provide the full suite of services to Australians. They are a vital part of Australia's health system, and we want them to do more, not less. But we cannot ignore the expert advice that has come to us that says that six million Australians could save hundreds of dollars a year if their doctor approves them having a 60-day supply of their medicines. There are a range of health groups that support this. The government is keen to work with community pharmacies as we implement it. In fact, that's why it is having a staged implementation, with medicines coming in and joining that list over the next 12 months. We will continue to work with all involved to make sure that the implementation of this is smooth and, where we can provide those investments back in, particularly to rural and regional pharmacies— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in budget estimates you confirmed that your government had not undertaken any modelling on the impact of your 60-day dispensing policy on community pharmacies in response to genuine concerns raised by small businesses across Australia. Now that this independent modelling has been released today, will you acknowledge that the Albanese government's lack of consideration and consultation on this measure will see pharmacies close, jobs lost and access to critical primary healthcare ripped away from the most vulnerable Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government did go through this at estimates and there was an impact analysis done. Obviously, the Pharmacy Guild has commissioned a report as part of their campaign which is opposed to this. As I said in answer to my first question, the government doesn't agree with the assumptions underpinning the report or the conclusions drawn from it. So I don't accept what that report says. The advice to the government and that we took is about the fact that Australians on these medicines could save hundreds of dollars a year by making this safe and modest change to the way their medicines are—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I raise a point of order once again on relevance, President. The minister continues to refer to access and the cost of medicines, which I have not referred to at all. I was merely asking whether Australians would be worse off and whether pharmacies would close.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is being relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator W</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, on the point of order: I would have thought an issue going to whether Australians are worse off might involve price. I know the opposition might find that—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, I have responded to Senator Ruston's point of order and I've said that the minister is being relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Six million Australians will be better off if they take up the opportunity that comes, if their doctor approves it. They will be able to access a supply for 60 days, as opposed to 30 days, for a limited group of medicines. They will save hundreds of dollars a year. We think it's an important cost-of-living measure.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Resources, Minister Farrell. In the 2023-24 budget, there was a commitment for $12 million over three years for a review of the environmental management regime for offshore petroleum to ensure it's fit for purpose. This will include consultation on all offshore projects, including with traditional owners and First Nations people. This review quietly kicked off at the end of May. Minister, how is the government advertising this review to ensure that a wide range of voices are heard, including those of First Nations people?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for her question. All of the decisions this government takes to the election, we carry through on. You'll recall earlier today that we put up a vote to have a referendum on the recognition of Indigenous Australians and their Voice to Parliament.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Senator Cox.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This question is about the review of the environmental management regime for offshore petroleum.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cox. I'll remind the minister of your question. Minister Farrell.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that that is directly related to a range of other issues, including issues that relate to native title. So I think there is some link between what—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARREL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, with due respect—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. Order on my left! Senator Birmingham, I have just called the chamber to order. Senator McKenzie! Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think there is a connection, and, unlike Senator Scarr, I don't think it's tenuous; I think it's directly related to these issues. Whatever commitments that we took to the last election are commitments that we are carrying through on, and that doesn't matter whether it's in relation to this issue or any other issue. We're a government that if we say we're going to do something, we will do it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What is the time line for this review, and are other any public terms of reference for it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will have a chat to the relevant minister, Minister King, and I will come back to you with a formal response on that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can you outline the expected outcomes of this review and how it will take into consideration important legal precedence, such as the historic Barossa case determination in the Northern Territory?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Obviously, the issues that relate to the Barossa project and the decision of the courts in respect of that will be matters that will be taken into consideration. All of those issues that relate to court decisions in this space will, of course, be the subject of consideration by any inquiry. But I will get a formal response for you from the minister in order to respond to that question.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Housing</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Finance and the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. The Albanese government understands safe, secure and affordable housing is central to the security and dignity of all Australians, including economic security. Can the minister outline to the Senate how the government's recent announcements in housing will provide greater economic security to Australians who are finding it difficult to find a safe, secure and affordable place to call home? How do these announcements align with the government's broader ambitious housing agenda?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for the question and for her advocacy on matters relating to housing and housing affordability, particularly in Victoria. I note that the announcement on the weekend will mean that her good state will receive in the order of just under $500 million so that there's extra investment going into affordable and social housing in the state of Victoria.</para>
<para>Research by Equity Economics has estimated that $257 million in homelessness support services and $122.5 million in domestic violence support services could be saved through more funding and investment going into social housing. That's why building more homes has been central to our first two budgets and to our overall economic plan.</para>
<para>This is one of the reasons why the Prime Minister and the Minister for Housing announced, on the weekend, the $2 billion social housing accelerator program, which will provide new money in the next two weeks for new social housing, including $50 million for my jurisdiction of the ACT. This will create thousands of homes for Australians on social housing waiting lists and will increase housing supply sooner, with all the funding to be committed by the states and territories within two years.</para>
<para>This continues the work of the new National Housing Accord, which is a shared ambition to build one million new homes over five years from 2024, and builds on the work of National Cabinet on renters' rights and planning reform. It will also build on the Albanese government's unlocking of $575 million in the National Housing Infrastructure Facility, which is currently being put to work to support new social and affordable rental housing. Also, on top of the investment in housing and homelessness services, it'll bring the total investment to $9½ billion in this financial year alone.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Albanese government recognises the important role that the property and construction sectors play in our economy and in putting roofs over the heads of Australians. Can the minister outline to the Senate the views of the property and construction sector on the government's recent housing announcement?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for the supplementary. The Albanese government has recorded the strongest jobs growth in the first year of any new government on record, with more than 465,000 jobs created since we came to government. We've seen new analysis released today that shows Australia is also a world leader when it comes to job creation and workforce participation. But we know that, if more people are to benefit from the strong labour market, we need to ensure there are affordable homes close to those where those job opportunities are being created, and that's why building more homes has been central to our first two budgets and to our economic plan. It's why our social housing accelerator program has been so warmly welcomed across the housing sector. As Denita Wawn from the Master Builders said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Accelerator is a crucial step towards addressing the persistent issue of housing affordability in the country.</para></quote>
<para>Or as Wendy Hayhurst from CHIA said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has grasped the urgency of the social housing shortage and crafted a policy that will accelerate planning, building and delivery of new homes.</para></quote>
<para class="italic"><inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in your first answer you talked about how the Albanese government's social housing accelerator is part of the government's broader ambitious housing agenda. Can the minister update the Senate on that agenda, and what are the risks to its implementation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Walsh. We do have an ambitious housing agenda and we've added to it at every opportunity. A key part of that agenda is our Housing Australia Future Fund. The $10 billion fund is about creating a secure and ongoing pipeline of funding for social and affordable rental homes over the longer term. The fund has the support of our nation's peak housing bodies as well as every state and territory housing minister. Indeed, it's hard to find anyone who could possibly argue against this fund, except right here in the Senate, where we have a majority of senators arguing against the fund. It would allow $500 million each year for new social and affordable rental homes. The answer is right there. We need to ensure that this housing fund gets established as soon as possible. The Greens political party, the Liberals and One Nation continue to block this important piece of national infrastructure.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Budget</title>
          <page.no>45</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. Last Friday the government made an announcement for $2 billion in payments to the states and territories. Is this payment reflected in the 2023-24 budget, which was delivered just last month?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is in addition to the investments that we are making in the budget paper, and I would say—and we have said it time and time again—that in focusing on cost-of-living pressures, we're working with the states and territories, delivering where we can in partnership to make a difference to the lives of Australians, and we will continue to do so.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, across the chamber. Senator McKim! Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister has made it clear and the Treasurer has made it clear that, where we can make a meaningful difference by delivering on easing cost-of-living pressures and easing disadvantage across this country, we will do so. These matters remain ongoing in front of the Albanese government, and, through our cabinet processes, we consider all of these issues in an ongoing sense, and this is no different. We see the need—we see great need—and we have been working with the states and territories. But we've got an obstructionist Senate that's refusing to allow the Housing Australia Future Fund, which is the fund that would allow this to be done, to be supported by legislation in this place. We've got states and territories advocating on their behalf about the pressures they are under, and you have a Commonwealth that wants to work with states and territories to deliver on outcomes for the Australian people. I know this is a novel approach—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senato</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What a novel approach!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>yes, it is—considering the previous decade, in which the Commonwealth often did not work in partnership with states and territories. But this is a big priority for the states and territories. They have to deliver. They have to deliver on that, and they have two years to deliver on that. This government has committed $2 billion over the next two years to make sure they can invest in extra social and affordable housing to make the lives of people in this country better. We do not apologise for that. It remains on the agenda of every meeting of every committee of this government, how we can deal with some of these pressures and make a difference.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what does the May budget assume the cash rate to be, and what is the current cash rate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure how that relates to the first question.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGrath</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a budget question!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I'm not entirely sure that they flow on from each other, one being on the social housing affordability accelerator. The cash rate is 4.1 per cent, and I believe the budget was—and I will correct this because I do not have right in front of me—3.85 per cent, from memory. Those forecasts will be updated in the normal way in the usual fashion, as they are, and as they do for every budget, in the next economic update.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I would request that you review the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> and come back to the chamber about the appropriateness of that as a supplementary. If the justification is that it uses the word 'budget', that would have the effect of having anything in the budget supplementary to another part to a question. That cannot be the gravamen of direct relevance. I am just asking you, respectfully, to look at the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> and to give us a view about whether the use of the word 'budget' in a primary is sufficient to enable a supplementary which goes to another part of the budget, another aspect of the budget, to make it directly relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Wong. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In making a submission on Senator Wong's point of order, which you're going to consider, I put two points to you. The first relates specifically to this question being asked by Senator Hume, and I think you will find when you review it that both the primary question and the first supplementary question went to the accuracy of budget forecasts. The primary question did not make any comment or seek any response in relation to the policy propositions that the $2 billion was allocated for. It was about the accuracy of budget forecasting, as was the first supplementary, and so I think you will find that they clearly are related.</para>
<para>The second point I would make, though, is that in Senator Wong speaking about tangential relationships, if the word 'budget' is there is that sufficient for further supplementaries? I would note that, in many answers given, ministers take one word out of a question, one particular title out of a question, and use that as their defence for direct relevance, even if it is not clearly responding to the question that has been asked. So it is quite a stretch, in relation to the argument being offered by Senator Wong in this regard. If we want to have a tighter ruling, in relation to questions, the opposition would certainly welcome a tighter ruling in relation to direct relevance of answers.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senators Wong and Birmingham. I will certainly review that tape and come back to the chamber. Senator Gallagher, you had 11 seconds.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've answered the question.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hume, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This government has put forward forecasts in the budget that haven't lasted a month, has spent money that it hasn't accounted for, just a month ago, and although the Treasurer told Australians in October that inflation was public enemy No. 1 and the dragon we needed to slay, prices have continued to rise unabated. Minister, how can Australians trust this government and what it says about the economy when its own budget is so out of date just one month after it was delivered?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> (—) (): As I said, the forecasts will be updated as they always are and as they were under your government. I would say Australians can trust this budget because there's $5.7 billion going in to strengthen Medicare; there's $1.5 billion going into the energy price relief plan, which you voted against; there's $4.7 billion going into working-age and student payments, to help give people an extra helping hand; there's $1.9 billion going to extend the parenting payment single, to make sure more single parents are able to support their children for longer; there's $2.7 billion going into Commonwealth Rent Assistance; there's a 15 per cent pay rise for aged-care workers, that you'll be opposed to, no doubt; there's money going into making sure Australia's a renewable energy superpower; and there's money to support outcomes for Indigenous Australians. And, yes, we have increased our offer on social housing because we believe in it. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired) </inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>46</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Constitution: Aboriginal And Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have some additional information for Senator Hanson, in relation to her question. I am advised as follows. We can rule reserved seats out. They are not our policy. The government's policy is the Uluru statement, a constitutionally enshrined voice and a makarrata commission for agreement making and truth-telling.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>46</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pharmaceutical Industry, Budget</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Finance (Senator Gallagher) to questions without notice asked by Senator Ruston and Senator Hume relating to the pharmaceutical industry and the budget.</para></quote>
<para>Senator Ruston asked some very serious questions in relation to the future of our community pharmacies. Those listening to this broadcast and those in the gallery will be aware of the major change that this government has announced, whereby Australians will be able to obtain dispensation of prescriptions on a 60-day basis instead of a 30-day basis. From the point of view of the customers of pharmacies, this seems like a good idea. But there is no such thing as a free lunch. Someone has to pay.</para>
<para>In this case, this announcement, which has been made by the government, is going to have a devastating impact upon our community pharmacies, including community pharmacies in small, regional and rural centres. That is of considerable concern to the coalition and it should be of considerable concern to all Australians. After all, we all want cheaper prescriptions, but what if the local pharmacy closes in your town because it can't afford to keep its doors open because of this change? That's what we're talking about in this question, and that is of great concern to those sitting on this side of the house. My office, like, I'm sure, other offices, has been inundated with queries from local pharmacies concerned about how they are going to manage to keep the doors open with this change.</para>
<para>Let's look at the report that was just released today. This report, which was authored by economist Henry Ergas AO, an advisory company and also a data lab out of Griffith University in my home state of Queensland, found that this policy will result in the loss of upward of 20,000 pharmacy jobs because community pharmacies will no longer be able to keep on the number of employees that they previously had, because of the effect of this policy on their cash flow. It's a simple matter of cash flow. If your cash flow is so materially disrupted, you simply don't have the money to employ as many people or to keep your pharmacy open for as long as it currently stays open. This is the devastating impact of this policy. They predict in this report that up to 665 pharmacies could close. Also, pharmacies will cease opening on weekends or will not stay open late, because of the additional costs they'll have to bear.</para>
<para>One of the surprising things in relation to the announcement of this policy was that finance minister Katy Gallagher admitted that no modelling was done. There might have been an impact analysis, but there was no modelling done prior to the announcement of this policy. If you are going to announce a policy which has such a material impact on community pharmacies across this country, you should at the very least conduct modelling before you make the announcement, as part of your consideration of the policy. But that was not done. In fact, now we're hearing from the government that they're actually going to do some modelling—after the event. What is this? You announce the policy and then you do the modelling after the event? It's meant to be the other way around. You're meant to do the modelling and engage in consultation as you're crafting the policy, and then announce the policy, which has the benefit of that input. But that is not the case here.</para>
<para>It isn't just us on the coalition benches making this point. It isn't just the Pharmacy Guild. The Office of Impact Analysis, which has a key responsibility in terms of how laws are made in this place and makes an assessment as to whether or not proposed laws have gone through an appropriate process, has found that the impact of the government's change to 60-day dispensing was not properly assessed to the standard of good practice. I repeat that: the Office of Impact Analysis, independent of the opposition, noted that the government's change to 60-day dispensing was not properly assessed to the standard of good practice. The government's impact analysis failed to meet the criteria for good practice due to a lack of public consultation, particularly on the potential impacts for small businesses and pharmacies in rural and remote areas. And that's the feedback we're getting now, especially from pharmacies in rural and remote areas. This devastating hit to their cash flow is going to have a material impact on whether or not they can keep their doors open. That sort of consultation should have been done before this policy was announced. We on this side of the chamber will fight for our community pharmacies from now until the next election.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It was interesting to listen to the contribution from Senator Scarr because I think maybe Senator Scarr and those opposite forget that, when they were last in government, they acted on advice that was provided by the expert Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee. Similar advice on this very matter was provided to the previous government five years ago, but that advice was ignored. For five years, as a result of the previous government's inertia, millions of Australians have been shelling out twice as much as they needed to for medications. The previous government were happy to see families, pensioners and people with chronic health conditions pay more for their medicines, ignoring the advice from many health experts around this country. Federal Labor is making medicines cheaper for millions of Australians, and we're very proud to do so. We know that making medicines cheaper is good, not just for the hip pockets of Australians but it's also good for their health. At a time where there are increasing cost-of-living pressures, I think this is a reasonable policy to put to the Australian people, through our budget, in terms of why we're addressing the Medicare and medicines fiascos that were left by those opposite.</para>
<para>Just to be clear, too: it sounds like those opposite are saying that this government hasn't consulted. That's far from the truth. In fact, not only have we consulted but there's a list of many health professions right across the country which support our policy: Arthritis Australia, Diabetes Australia, the health foundation, the Australian College of Rural and Remote Medicine, the National Rural Health Alliance, the Rural Doctors Association, the Council on the Ageing and the Breast Cancer Network Australia. Plus, the Australian Medical Association has said that this policy is a win for patients and:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It should lead to better medicines adherence and ultimately better health outcomes, with reduced pressure on the health system.</para></quote>
<para>Further, the president of the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What does the Prime Minister's own pharmacist say?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Royal Australian College of General Practitioners has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This change has been recommended because it is in the best interests of patients, and I am pleased that the Government has heeded the expert advice.</para></quote>
<para>Senator Scarr, listen to the experts!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What does the Prime Minister's own pharmacist say?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Further, the policy has been welcomed by the Consumers Health Forum of Australia, who have said that the policy shows that government is listening to health consumers, and, 'Every single dollar saved in a pharmacy is more money that can be spent on groceries and rent.' And the list keeps going and going.</para>
<para>There was another matter also raised today: we heard a question about housing. It's really surprising—I would have thought, after what happened last week, that when the Liberal party came back into this chamber they would have seen some sense. Why would they line up with the Australian Greens in blocking housing—more money for social housing? The Liberals, Nationals and the Greens are now all seeking to justify their unjustifiable opposition to the Labor Party's Housing Australia Future Fund. This comes after the coalition and the Greens teamed up once more this morning to delay investment in affordable housing. Sadly, people who are now living on the streets will suffer another four months because of those opposite teaming up with the Greens. They're now going to be homeless again for another four months.</para>
<para>What a shameful, cynical and political act in the midst of rising cost-of-living pressures. It's something I would have expected back in the old days at the National Union of Students, where we had the Trots teaming up with the conservatives after being out all night at God knows where. This is the behaviour of student politicians and it's still happening in this building. Grow up! I say to those opposite: grow up! We're adults in this room, and let's deliver real, genuine policy that can make a difference for millions of Australians who are doing it tough out there on the streets. Both the Greens and the coalition love to stand up in here and say that the government isn't doing enough to support Australians. Well, join us in $10 billion in affordable housing! But let's be clear: you cannot say that you support more social and affordable housing but oppose the future fund.</para>
<para>It's hardly surprising to see that the coalition is in this position again, but the Greens are a bunch of hypocrites too. We have to look at their own record: councillors across very many metropolitan cities around Australia are opposing reasonable development—reasonable development that will put the roofs over many, many people's heads in this country. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sena</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>tor BRAGG () (): I think it's good that from time to time we see senators give unscripted addresses like we just saw from Senator Ciccone. I think it's far better than the dreadful, turgid reading out of other people's points that puts most of us to sleep! So I think it was good to hear that. But the point I want to make today in this address is really more in relation to the budget management, which was, of course, the subject of the last few questions from the opposition.</para>
<para>Of course, the overall problem here is that the government has not been able to adopt a contractionary budget stance and has decided that it would effectively fuel inflation by being incapable of restraining new spending. The key stat from the budget just delivered was the $14 billion in additional spending based on decisions made in that budget process for this financial year about to start—$14 billion of new spending in that budget process. Since that budget, which is only a few weeks ago, we've now seen another couple of billion dollars spent. That is the central problem that is facing the country's economic management, because we have an executive government deciding that it cannot slow new spending. In fact, it is committing new spending on a regular and, frankly, unusual basis. To spend $2 billion when a budget has just been freshly inked is unusual.</para>
<para>Then, of course, you have the Reserve Bank, which is trying to soften things out there in the economy with its blunt tool of monetary policy, and you see fiscal and monetary policy working against one another. It is very frustrating that we see the procession of Labor backbenchers being sent out to attack Philip Lowe for doing his job. Philip Lowe might not be the most popular person in Australia, but at least he's doing his job by raising interest rates to try and deal with inflation whilst Canberra continues to spend more and more money. So that is the central problem in the budget and in the overall position the country faces.</para>
<para>The second issue, though, is the lack of productivity reforms in the budget. When we had the Senate estimates recently, we had the Productivity Commission come and give evidence, and the main question that the chair of the PC was asked was, 'How many of the measures in your recent report are actually in the budget?' The answer was none, because, of course, the Productivity Commission's advice is that the country should be moving to liberalise and improve the level of flexibility in labour laws, whereas the government's agenda has been to try and ensure that the labour laws are more complex and more convoluted.</para>
<para>Of course, this goes to the third major issue here, which is the central driver of this government, which is to enrich its favourite vested interests. If you are a union, a super fund or a class-action law firm, your issues will be at the top of the list here in Canberra. Of course, that also goes to the spending of money, which again goes back to that first point about the very difficult issue we face: inflation. So that is the central problem: inflation being fuelled by Canberra, no productivity, and then, on top of that, a government which is obsessed with trying to enrich its favourite vested interests. I think, unfortunately, until we see the government adopt a productivity agenda and start to say no to new spending proposals, we're going to see higher inflation then we should see, and we're going to see a weakening economy with weakening competitiveness.</para>
<para>So those are the central questions that we've been asking in question time today. Again, I want to reiterate my thanks to Senator Ciccone for being able to go off script. I think that's very helpful, and I hope that in future we can see more contributions which are unscripted. I do not want to make any commentary about the content, but I want to very much associate myself with the manner in which the senator gave his contribution.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What a great speech! I agree with Senator Bragg that Senator Ciccone's speech was exceptionally good and one that people should take a great deal of note of. I'd also reach out to Senator Bragg and those on his side of the argument and say that they should also take note of what Senator Ciccone had to say, because what's quite clear is that they have been consistent on the opposite side. They've been very consistent. We've just had criticism of having the Social Housing Accelerator going forward. Not only did they vote, with their mates from the Greens, against having a bill to bring 10,000 homes, and not only did they vote against ultimately bringing 30,000 homes into the market to make sure that we start putting pressure back on the housing crisis, but they are also now criticising the fact that we're trying to take important steps, with the premiers of the country, to start dealing with the incredibly important area of social housing. Because, for 10 years, they did so little; they created this crisis. They failed for 10 years. They threw our kids out of the opportunity to get homes, they reduced their wages, because the Liberal and National parties are the low-income parties, and they also want us to continue their agenda—don't have social housing and housing affordability for people within this country.</para>
<para>I heard a lot of people from all political parties speaking at the 'yes' campaign. I've been a strong supporter of the 'yes' campaign. I congratulated a number of those people privately, and they're more than welcome to say it publicly, if they like. Many of them I didn't mention publicly. But you can't come in here and vote one way when it comes to the referendum and then argue another when we're trying to get social housing support for the most disadvantaged people in this country. Because housing in this country is a critical piece—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order was going to be relevance, given I wasn't sure how the referendum was relevant to the housing questions. But I note that Senator Sheldon has come back to the topic.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, please proceed.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Hopefully, I'll get a tick from Senator McGrath. I'm not quite sure I'll get the same tick as my colleague Senator Ciccone. One thing that is quite clear is that you can't continue to deny that we have a housing crisis in this country. You have to stop playing politics with it! Our kids, our families, and our communities deserve better. Housing coming in for people suffering from domestic violence, housing coming in for those that are veterans, housing coming in for those who are disadvantaged, housing coming in for those that are First Nations people—you have a social responsibility for people throughout this country to support the bill on housing. You have a responsibility not to criticise the social housing accelerator but to say to those people in New South Wales who are getting $610 million worth of funding, to those people in Victoria who are getting $496 million worth of funding, to those people in Queensland who are getting $396 million in funding, to those people in Western Australia who are getting $209 million in funding, to those people in South Australia who are getting $135 million in funding, to those people in Tasmania who are getting $50 million in funding, to those people in the Northern Territory who are getting $50 million in funding and to those in the Australian Capital Territory who are getting $50 million why you are against proposals and why you are questioning the strategy to make sure the social housing goes ahead under this proposal that's been put forward and will continue to be generated by this government, along with the premiers, right across the political divide across this country.</para>
<para>It points out that the criticism of that accelerator program is a criticism at the heart of what you don't have and at the heart to say that we need to make sure that Australians have the opportunity to be in homes, to be in housing and to have an opportunity to have a roof over their heads, one that they can call home, and deliver it for their families and their local communities. That cohesion that a house brings is something that the Greens and those opposite are stopping. They are stopping our kids from getting homes. They are stopping the most disadvantaged from getting homes. They're stopping veterans from getting home. They are stopping people from across this country who have been let down by those opposite for the past decade. Because this crisis has been here for over a decade, and this crisis is being accelerated by the way the Greens have voted and by the way that those opposite keep voting on the resolution about housing within this country. It's time to stand by your community rather than, in some cases, play petty politics and attempt to wedge. For the others, get out of your ideological quagmire.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise quickly to talk about the response to the 60-day prescription model. Strangely enough, I'm going to talk about the Key and Peele comedy series. Many of you may know them from the A-Aron and Jay Quellin skit. I want to talk about the Obama anger translator. This government needs a regional translator because they see every policy through the views of the cities. When we're talking about 665 pharmacies closing and 20,000 jobs being lost, affordability does not come into it if there is no accessibility. Time and time again this is where this government goes. We have cheaper child care, but you can't get child care in the bush. We have cheaper medicines, but there won't be chemists in the bush after this.</para>
<para>Senator Ciccone sat there and rattled off a list of people who were consulted—all these different groups—not one of which was pharmacy based. I tell you that if you took the same axe to the funding of those groups as you did to pharmacies they would squeal like bayoneted pigs, because they'd know this is wrong. In the bush, we don't have doctors and Medicare and all these things. These are community assets. We saw the mistake of the government my side was on when we merged councils in New South Wales. They don't understand that in the bush there is community. In the cities you wake up in one LGA, drop your kids in another LGA and go to work in another LGA. In the bush there is community, in the regions there is community. Near my place, Chelsea Felkai at Whitebridge Pharmacy said, 'It's soul-destroying, what's going on.' They've just bought this and they pay themselves three days a week so they can afford the interest rates on the pharmacy they bought, and this will take more. If we go down to Rowen Turnbull at Blacksmiths pharmacy, in a beautiful little beachside suburb, with the second-best surf club in the area—behind Redhead!—he is saying he will put off staff and cut services, or have to charge more to be able to maintain it. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>50</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Foreign Affairs (Senator Wong) today to questions without notice I asked today relating to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice.</para></quote>
<para>Today it was admitted by the Labor Party that we had an historic day in introducing the third reading on the Voice to Parliament and, hence, we'll have a referendum at the end of this year. The fact is that it is an historic day but that when it comes to telling people the truth, the Labor Party are short on that. They're not interested. They're interested in patting themselves on the back to get this legislation up.</para>
<para>Why I raise this is that today I asked important questions of Senator Wong, on behalf of the Prime Minister, with regard to Thomas Mayo. He made some comments about the Voice, that its power was its ability to punish elected members of this parliament that ignored its advice. There was no true answer to that—there was no answer whatsoever. I asked, 'Does the Prime Minister endorse Mr Mayo's comments?' And, again, another one, about ruling out establishing seats in the parliament. Senator Wong clarified that later on, and said: 'No, it's not part of our policy.' It's got nothing to do with the Labor Party's policy; it's if they endorse the fact, if the referendum is successful, that if the Voice were to push for seats in parliament for Indigenous people, as has been done in New Zealand, will the government look at it? I'm not asking for their policy point of view now at all. And my third question was about whether they will rule out the establishment of an independent, sovereign Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander state in Australia. There was no response to that whatsoever. There was no direct 'no' whatsoever.</para>
<para>This is what is so annoying to the Australian people, who are terribly confused about this. The Labor Party and everyone else want to play on emotions without being upfront and honest with people. They talk about the makarrata. The makarrata is basically a treaty. That's what it stands for: a treaty. The whole thing that they're pushing for is a treaty. What we need is truth and honesty. When I spoke this morning on the floor of parliament, a journalist took that and said Senator Hanson made some comments about the Stolen Generations—that type of thing. The Prime Minister said, 'I have no intentions of answering that question.' He said, 'I'm not going to respond to Senator Hanson.' I represent millions of people in Australia who have concerns over this, so if he can't respond to that, regardless of whether it's me, then respond to the Australian people—because if he can't then he should get out of the job. The Prime Minister is pathetic when he wants to sidestep an issue because he can't answer it, or won't answer it, and be truthful with the Australian people. That's what they want, and they want these direct answers.</para>
<para>One of the most important issues facing our country is this referendum and the government just whitewash everything. They play on the emotions of people that we owe it to the Aboriginal Indigenous. No; we're all Australians equally.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment, Housing</title>
          <page.no>50</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Trade and Tourism (Senator Farrell) today to questions without notice I and Senator Faruqi asked today relating to the environment and housing.</para></quote>
<para>I was pleased to see the announcement of the review of the environmental management regime for offshore petroleum, about which I asked questions of Senator Farrell, representing the Minister for Resources, Minister King. I have been intimately involved in the Barossa-Tiwi case, where traditional owners have challenged NOPSEMA in relation to both the regulations and the lack of consultation that occurred. We all know what that was—it was an unanswered phone call and two unanswered emails that they sent, which is a pathetic excuse for consultation. The fact that traditional owners were not and are still not considered relevant people as part of the legislation in this country means that the gravity of this case should be taken seriously. When the government seeks to roll out a review of offshore petroleum, whether it's fit for purpose in this country and all of the projects that are funded from that, it can't just quietly announce that in the <inline font-style="italic">AFR</inline>, as it did on 31 May, saying that the review has actually started. The expectation is of transparency and accountability to the Australian public.</para>
<para>The government needs to think about what that consultation piece looks like and the diversity in voices. You need to stop going to individual hand-picked people across the country to endorse your regulations, your policies and your legislation. You say, 'We've co-designed it with people; we've asked people; we've consulted with this mob.' In fact, you haven't and you continue not to. You don't ask the First Nations people who are in the High Court making challenges. You don't ask environmental groups, who know the scientific risk of these projects. You listen to the multibillion-dollar fossil fuel companies about this review because they provide the dirty donations that you get at every election time. It's the locked smoky room that my colleague Senator Shoebridge always refers to—the little processes where you get industry to make sure you can pull everything together for yourselves. So there was no media release and nothing said by the minister. All of a sudden, it appeared in the budget as a line item, and we saw $12 million committed to it. There was no process. In fact, Minister Farrell couldn't even articulate it to me when I asked the question about it, which goes to the heart of it, showing that there has not been that much attention to detail by this government again.</para>
<para>Moving to housing, I am loving the debate and the banter of our relationships across the chamber but not the continued excuses by this government, who do not want to back renters. They don't want to understand the importance of why the Greens have stood their ground in relation to this. Oh my God, they did a backflip. After saying they didn't have the additional money to do this for housing, they came out with an announcement on the weekend of an extra $2 billion for social and affordable housing. The government doesn't control the rents, according to them. But there is power in the National Cabinet—being able to talk to your state and territory colleagues, your premiers, in relation to freezing and capping rent increases. That is something you have the ability to do, which is what the government should be doing—having national leadership on this issue. It is as my colleague from the other place Mr Chandler-Mather continues to say, because he's the person in the grassroots campaign, out knocking on doors—that's right—listening to renters and people who have to choose between paying their rent and feeding their kids. They will be the people who blow out your social housing list. Putting money into that is just feeding the beast because you're not caring about renters in relation to being able to freeze or cap those rent increases.</para>
<para>We don't want any more excuses from this government. The honeymoon is over. For 12 months, you've been in government. You need to start looking after everyday Australians instead of looking after your mates. If you've got $30 billion to put into stage 3 tax cuts, you can put more money into affordable housing and think about how you can use your power.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>51</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>51</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That general business order of the day No. 44, Broadcasting Services Amendment (Prohibition of Gambling Advertisements) Bill 2023 be considered on Wednesday 21 June and Thursday 22 June 2023 at the time for private senator's bills.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bills be listed on the Notice Paper as 2 orders of the day:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Financial Accountability Regime Bill 2023 and the Financial Accountability Regime (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2023; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Treasury Laws Amendment (Financial Services Compensation Scheme of Last Resort) Bill 2023, the Financial Services Compensation Scheme of Last Resort Levy Bill 2023 and the Financial Services Compensation Scheme of Last Resort Levy (Collection) Bill 2023.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senator Grogan from 20 to 22 June 2023 for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:3</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<para>That leave of absence be granted to the following the senators: Senator Davey and Senator Cadell for 16 June for parliamentary business; and Senator Bragg for 16 June for personal reasons.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Uluru Statement from the Heart</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator McCarthy and Senator Cox, I move the motion standing in my name and the name of Senator Cox:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) endorses the implementation of the Uluru Statement from the Heart in full, as a matter of priority, including a Voice enshrined in the Constitution and a Makarrata Commission for agreement-making and truth-telling; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) notes that all members of the Constitutional Expert Group have agreed that the proposed alteration to the Constitution 'would not affect the sovereignty of any group or body'.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, are you seeking leave to make a one-minute statement?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's your name on the motion, Senator Cox, so you can't speak to it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox can actually seek leave. It's up to people to deny her leave, but there's nothing, in my view, in the standing orders that would prevent her from seeking leave.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In the interest of advising the chamber, we had an agreement between our party and your party, Senator Cox, that, in order to maintain the provisions that we all agreed to, we wouldn't be having statements. I'd prefer not to deny the senator leave, so I'd prefer that she not seek it in the first place.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If you are of voting age, whatever your age, this referendum is possibly one of the most important decisions you will ever make. You will now go to the ballot box without detail, with an untested, risky proposition which, if successful, will be permanent. There is not an Australian that does not want the lives of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people to be better, because when that happens we all benefit. The Australian Constitution belongs to everyone equally. This is not the right reason, not the right question, not the right words and not the right solution for change. Abdicating accountability for change is a cop-out. This is another bureaucracy, as if they are not enough voices already. The Voice concept, the Voice conversation and the conduct of the opposition in the path of this bill will take us to a divided nation, regardless of the result. Labor's Voice is full of risk, full of expectations and full of emotion. So now I, like you, get to go to the ballot box to say no to that.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the motion in the names of Senator McCarthy and Senator Cox, titled 'Uluru Statement from the Heart', be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:45]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>32</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                <name>White, L.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Hume, J.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S SPEECH</title>
        <page.no>54</page.no>
        <type>GOVERNOR-GENERAL'S SPEECH</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Address-in-Reply</title>
          <page.no>54</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Minister for Finance, Senator Gallagher, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, on Monday, 31 July 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the address-in-reply be presented at 9.30 am to His Excellency the Governor-General by the President and such senators as may desire to accompany her; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the hours of meeting be 11 am to 8.30 pm.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>54</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Freeze on Rent and Rate Increases Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>54</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1379" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Freeze on Rent and Rate Increases Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>54</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator McKim, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the law relating to federal financial relations and the Reserve Bank of Australia, and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Freeze on Rent and Rate Increases Bill 2023</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>54</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill and have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard </inline>and to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Australia is in the middle of a rental and housing crisis. People renting a home and people buying a home are spending record amounts of their income to put a roof over their head. Too many renters across Australia are staring down the barrel of another rental increase that will push them into homelessness. In a country as wealthy as ours, rising rates of homelessness are a national disgrace. Meanwhile skyrocketing house prices have put buying a home forever-out-of-reach for countless everyday families.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The housing crisis is the result of generous tax-breaks for property investors, lending policies that have burdened families with record levels of debt and handed billions in profit to the big banks, the retreat of governments at all levels from providing public housing, and absolutely no protections for renters. This has turned a basic human right into an instrument for financial speculation that is enriching the already wealthy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is unfathomable that the government can find tens of billions of dollars every year in the budget for submarines, tax cuts for politicians and millionaires, and handouts to wealthy property investors while families are sleeping in their cars, workers are unable to afford a home near where they work, and people are being evicted because they can't pay the 20 per cent increases in their rents. The government is sitting on their hands when they have the capacity to intervene and stop the worst of this crisis. This crisis is a political choice that is the result of the social contract being torn up in the interests of big capital.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill responds to the need for national leadership to address the rental and housing crisis by seeking to establish a national freeze on rent increases and interest rate increases.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Freeze on rent increases</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rents are increasing at the fastest rate on record. The 2022 increase in rents was a record. 2023 increases are forecast to eclipse this record. In the past twelve months rents in capital cities have grown six times faster than wages. Renters are set to pay an extra $10 billion as the result of rent increases this year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Less than one percent of rentals nationwide are affordable for a person earning a full-time minimum wage, making it near impossible for essential workers to afford to rent in most parts of the country. And close to zero percent of rentals are affordable for people on the Aged Pension, Disability Support Pension, Jobseeker or Youth Allowance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Even with this Bill providing for a two-year rent freeze and a cap on rent increases at two per cent every two years, wages aren't forecast to catch up to the impacts of recent rent growth until 2029.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Prime Minister has repeatedly claimed that regulating rental tenancies can only be achieved by the states and territories, or that implementing a freeze on rent increases would require nationalising the private rental market. This is an abrogation of responsibility.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Despite what the Prime Minister has led people to believe, rent freezes are not an extraordinary or novel idea, nor are they 'pixie dust'. Tasmanian, Victorian, South Australian and Western Australian governments froze rents for six months when the COVID pandemic hit, and private rental properties were not nationalised. Historically, rent freezes have been used in times of rampant inflation. In 1941, the federal government froze rents to deal with inflation caused by wartime shortages.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Throughout the world rent controls are used to protect tenants from punitive and excessive increases in rent pressure zones. From New York and California to Scotland and Ireland, action has been taken to limit increases in rents. London Mayor Sadiq Khan called for powers to freeze rents for two years. The New Zealand Human Rights Commission has called for a temporary rent freeze throughout the country to tackle the cost of living and rent crisis<inline font-style="italic">. </inline>Most recently, Spain capped their rent increases in areas where rent is increasing significantly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Just as the federal government coordinates national policy in areas such as health and education, by offering grants to the states and territories who sign up to a national agenda the federal government can coordinate a national freeze on rent increases and take action on out-of-control rent rises. In fact, when the COVID pandemic hit, the Morrison Government co-ordinated an eviction moratorium via the National Cabinet, proving that it is possible for the federal government to take action on renters' rights.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">More recently, the Prime Minister effectively refuted his previous claims when he announced that National Cabinet had tasked the Housing and Homelessness Ministerial Council with examining action on renter rights including the frequency and amount of rent increases, and to report back later this year. In the meantime, families will face eviction and be forced into homelessness because they are being slapped with another unprecedented rental increase that they cannot afford. A national freeze on rent increases is not only necessary: it is possible; and it is urgent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill establishes the framework for the federal government to work with states and territories to implement a rent freeze by providing additional housing funding to states and territories who adopt rent control measures within their own tenancy legislation. Following the passage of this Bill, the Minister would be required to take all reasonable steps to reach an agreement with the states and territories to implement a freeze on rent increases. In return, participating state and territories would have their housing funding from the federal government doubled.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, the states and territories receive a combined $1.6 billion per annum in federal funding via the National Housing and Homelessness Agreement. The additional funding provided for by the passage of this Bill could be used to immediately boost the supply of public and genuinely affordable housing by buying up existing properties, such as those exiting the National Rental Affordability Scheme, or invested in desperately needed new public housing construction.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In return for the doubling of housing funding, the Bill also require states and territories to implement model tenancy standards. Model tenancy standards would include a two-year freeze on rent increases, and ongoing caps on increases of two per cent every two years. The rental control measures provided for by this Bill would apply to the individual property rather than the individual lease, ensuring that rents could not be exorbitantly increased between tenancies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Furthermore, model tenancy standards would include a ban on no-cause evictions, including at the end of fixed-term tenancies. This would avoid the perverse outcome that is occurring in Queensland where, despite no-cause evictions supposedly being prohibited, tenants are receiving a notices to vacate at the end of a fixed-term tenancy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Fr eeze on rate increases</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Interest rates are also increasing at record speeds. For the first time ever, the RBA has increased interest rates at eleven of their last twelve meetings. The RBA is doing this in response to high inflation that is between half and three-quarters as result of supply-side pressures—including corporate profiteering—that monetary policy can do little to offset. The RBA is also doing this after providing forward guidance during 2020 and 2021 that interest rates were unlikely to increase above 0.10 per cent until 2024.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Interest rate hikes are increasing housing costs for mortgage holders, with monthly repayments for the average mortgage holder having increased by around $1,000 in the last year. Interest rate hikes are also increasing housing costs for renters, with low vacancy rates allowing landlords to pass on interest rate increases with little ability for prospective tenants to refuse these increases.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has repeatedly claimed that interest rate decisions are out of its hands because the RBA is independent. But the government has the power to intervene and has always had the power to intervene.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Section 11 of the <inline font-style="italic">Reserve Bank Act 1959</inline> sets out the procedure by which the Treasurer may overrule the RBA and set monetary policy in the event of a difference of opinion between the government and the RBA. These powers were introduced by Ben Chifley upon the establishment of a central bank in Australia through the <inline font-style="italic">Commonwealth Bank Act 1945</inline>. These powers were then retained by the Menzies Government when the Reserve Bank of Australia was established and separated from the Commonwealth Bank in 1959.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This framework established by Section 11 was taken from the 1937 report of the <inline font-style="italic">Royal Commission into Monetary and Banking Systems </inline>which stated that the government should ultimately be responsible for monetary and banking policy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill would make it clear that the government is ultimately responsible for monetary policy and that Section 11 can be used to freeze interest rates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Following the passage of this Bill, the Treasurer should invoke Section 11 to freeze the cash rate target and the interest rate on exchange settlement balances at no more than 3.60 per cent for twelve months.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Conclusion</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is proposing real action for renters and mortgage holders in a time of an unprecedented housing crisis. It is possible. It is not a fanciful idea to ask for more.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Over the last three decades of neoliberal economic policy, the role of government in housing has consistently been replaced by the private market, the real estate industry and other large-scale financial actors. Successive Liberal and Labor governments have been more interested in ensuring the big banks, wealthy investors and property developers continue to rake in record profits at the expense of everyday people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill would reverse that trend by putting the interests of renters and mortgage holders ahead of the big banks, developers and property moguls. Everyone needs a home. Housing should be treated as a home and as a social good, not a speculative financial asset. People should not have to feel 'extremely lucky' to have a roof over their head.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Finance: Procurement Policy</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to amend general business motion of notice No. 250 to provide a due date of Thursday 22 June, rather than Tuesday 20 June.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Hume, I move the amended motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister for Finance, by no later than midday on Thursday, 22 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) all departmental briefs, drafts or documents created in the Department of Finance relating to the preparation of the 'Procurement policy note—Ethical conduct of tenders and suppliers';</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) all emails, text messages and other communications between the Minister and officials from the department or between the Minister's office and the department relating to the preparation of the 'Procurement policy note -Ethical conduct of tenders and suppliers'; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) any related documents.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This statement will also apply to the next motion as well. Senator Hume's OPDs are broad ranging and detailed and move beyond the common practice of what this chamber orders through a motion of this nature. There are other established legislative avenues for assessing detailed requests such as this, including established freedom-of-information processes. I would also note that this broad-ranging OPD is in the name of a former Morrison government minister, a government that consistently failed to produce documents in response to simple requests from the Senate. In anticipation of the coalition and the Greens joining together to support these motions, we will consider what can be provided within the nominated time frame.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Finance: Budget Estimates</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sena</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>tor ASKEW (—) (): I seek leave to amend general business motion of notice No. 251 to provide a due date of Thursday 22 June, rather than Tuesday 20 June.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Hume, I move the amended motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister for Finance, by no later than midday on Tuesday, 22 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) all briefing materials prepared for the Minister for Finance by the Department of Finance relating to the Budget estimates hearings of the Finance portfolio by the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) all briefing materials prepared by the department for the members of the Senior Executive Service of the department relating to the Budget estimates hearings of the Finance portfolio by the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Corporation</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>57</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the National Disability Insurance Scheme, by no later than midday on Thursday, 22 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) all grant agreements made with National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) funding or between the NDIS or the Department of Social Services and the National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Corporation (NATSIC), currently in administration with the firm known as Grant Thornton Australia; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) any emails, documents or handwritten notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) relating to the decisions to enter into those grant agreements,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) relating to fraud prevention or fraud identification during the grant agreements,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) between the grantor and grantee,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) between the Commonwealth and NATSIC,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) relating to any visit or meeting with the office bearers of NATSIC,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) relating to any investigation by the Office of the Registrar of Indigenous Corporations or under the Corporations (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander) Act 2006,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vii) relating to debts owed by NATSIC resulting from non-performance of the grant agreements,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(viii) relating to Mr Jim Golden-Brown or any aliases, including Jim Sturgeon or similar spelling,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ix) relating to Graham Aitken,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(x) relating to Harry Harun,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xi) made by Ryan Sandeman, Grant Schulz, Kirsty Goodwin or Dick Courtney,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xii) relating to the public interest declaration made by Ms Goodwin in respect of Ryan Sandeman,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xiii) relating to Michael Roddan's article published in the Australian Financial Review on or around 6 February 2023, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xiv) between the NDIS and the NATSIC Chairman, Ian Mye.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Here we are once again with another racially charged and utterly pathetic motion on behalf of Senator Hanson about so-called Aboriginal people who are falsely claiming to be black. I thought we put this to bed earlier this week, but it seems that people in this place have seriously not got the message. So let me make this absolutely crystal clear. Our identity as First Peoples in this country is not up for debate. That is not up for debate, especially by non-indigenous people who are raising this issue in bad faith. The High Court settled this. We have a means already to assess it. Neither Senator Hanson nor anyone else—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Deputy President, I understand Senator Cox is passionate about this issue, but she's impugning Senator Hanson's motives when she says this is being raised in bad faith.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I listened to the comment carefully and I don't think it reaches that imputation. Senator Cox, please finish up.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Neither Senator Hanson nor anyone else in this place can tell First Peoples who, in fact, are or are not Indigenous and First Peoples of this country.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is on item 252, standing in the name of Senator Hanson, in relation to an order for the production of documents.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:58]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Agency</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>58</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>STEELE-JOHN () (): I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Treasurer, by no later than 5 pm on Tuesday, 20 June 2023, the NDIS Financial Sustainability Framework.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of the Treasury</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>58</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Treasurer, by no later than 6 pm on Wednesday, 21 June 2023, all submissions to the Treasury consultation on public country-by-country reporting.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will oppose this motion. It would be inappropriate to release all submissions, as some submissions are submitted on a confidential basis. Submissions that are not confidential will be released ahead of the introduction of any legislation.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is the motion standing in the name of Senator McKim, an order for the production of documents.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:07] <br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>17</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Maugean Skates</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>59</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, by no later than 10 am on 22 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the letter sent by the Minister for the Environment and Water to the Tasmanian Government in relation to the Maugean skate, as referenced in Senate questions without notice on 14 June 2023; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the response from the Tasmanian Government to that letter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, by no later than midday on 23 June 2023, the minutes of the meeting of the Threatened Species Scientific Committee held during the week beginning 6 June 2023, as referenced in Senate questions without notice on 14 June 2023.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>59</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Capital Territory (Self-Government) Amendment Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1382" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Australian Capital Territory (Self-Government) Amendment Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>59</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Capital Territory (Self-Government) Act 1988</inline>, and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Australian Capital Territory (Self-Government) Amendment Bill 2023</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>59</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum and I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">As you all know, on 11 May 2023 the Canberra community was blindsided when the ACT Greens-Labor coalition government announced they would be forcibly acquiring Calvary Public Hospital, its land and its assets, ripping up their remaining 76-year contract and essentially forcing all of the Calvary staff to work for ACT Health.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This decision was made with no consultation, and no inquiry by the Legislative Assembly prior to the announcement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This has resulted in significant public outcry well beyond the borders of the ACT.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I'm sure each of your offices, like mine, has received thousands of emails on this topic, legitimately raising questions about the real reason behind such a move and concerns about the precedent this action creates, potentially for other faith-based services including schools.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The purpose of this Bill is to insert a requirement that the ACT Government conduct an inquiry into the ACT legislation that enables the acquisition. This does not impact on the ACT Government's rights to make decisions, it is intended to ensure that there is public consultation with the decision that has been made, so that people can have their voices heard.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This action has occurred despite the relevant Minister admitting that Calvary has been delivering good healthcare and is not in any breach of its contract.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ACT Government clearly plotted behind Calvary's back. The legislation to make this happen was tabled in the Assembly without any notice and it was pushed through without proper scrutiny on the next sitting day, 31 May—with an acquisition date of the third of July—it's nothing short of outrageous.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ACT Government even went so far as to move a motion to ensure that the normal committee inquiry process into legislation was circumvented.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Understandably, Calvary, and its owner the Little Company of Mary, were devastated.    .I understand that the CEO, Martin Bowles had been in discussions with the government about the provision of hospital services in the north of Canberra but had not heard from the government for six months.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Many of the 1,800 staff at Calvary are also, understandably, very upset. They have chosen to work at Calvary because of its good culture which stands in contrast to ACT Health, which is well known from numerous staff surveys to have a toxic workplace culture and poor management practices.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Some of those emails my office has received, reference concerns expressed by these staff.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"The nursing staff at the hospital are angry and very disappointed. These nurses write, "As members of the Canberra community, it concerns us hugely that we have now set a precedent for due process to be bypassed, for consultation to be bypassed, in order to facilitate the government to do as it pleases."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Has any thought even been given to the impact on ACT Health's ability to run clinical services at Calvary once the takeover is completed on 3 July?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Without even considering how ACT Health might continue to deliver high quality services at the standard achieved by Calvary, there is also the question about the cost.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">How many millions of dollars is the taxpayer going to be required to spend to change from Calvary to ACT Health ownership without a single quantifiable benefit?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ACT Government's arguments about a single, integrated service being easier to run are hard to justify—especially when you look at the way State and private systems work cooperatively and effectively in other jurisdictions like Queensland, Victoria, and NSW with organisations like Mater and St Vincent's very successfully delivering public hospital services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am convinced, that this is an exercise based more around ideology than good policy. It is being viewed by many as an anti-faith agenda by a Greens-Labor coalition and it is hard not to believe that at its heart, that's what's driving this whole saga.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is also at the heart of the concerns raised by everyday Australians, just like this one :</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"The appalling decision by the ACT Government to forcibly take over Canberra's Calvary Hospital is very concerning.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is obvious that the tensions between the government and the hospital's Catholic values have played a large part in the decision.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The government wants the hospital to provide euthanasia and abortion, but this goes against long-standing Catholic beliefs on the value of life.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In our free, pluralistic and diverse society, Calvary Hospital should have the freedom to conscientiously object to intentionally taking lives through abortion and euthanasia without the threat of being "acquired" by the government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a clear act of religious discrimination.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The fact that a government can forcibly take over an institution because it does not align with that government's values sets a dangerous precedent in our nation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This overrides our human rights to have autonomy and for the Government to have minimal impediment to citizens functioning in daily lives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We must make a stand against governments that dislike religious freedom and think that they can force religious institutions out of existence."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">So where are we at now? Last week, in this place, I put forward a motion for an inquiry into this action taken by the ACT Government. I was supported in this by several of my colleagues and thank you all for your support.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Calvary sought to have the legislation overturned in the ACT Supreme Court, but the case was dismissed by the court and the transition is now proceeding. Calvary is awaiting the full judgement from the court before deciding on any possible appeals.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is clear the ACT Government wants this fight. It wants the conflict, and it is determined to win at any cost to the staff, to taxpayers and to the community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The way they have plotted in secret and ambushed Calvary, the speed with which this is happening, and the circumvention of democratic process does not speak of a government acting in good faith. It shows a government that is riding roughshod over an organisation that has provided a great service to Canberra for over 40 years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I'd like to close by quoting yet another of those emails:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"Calvary Hospital is being forced out of existence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This should not happen in Australia!</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We need to fight for justice and for what is right!!!</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">What amazes me is that a government thinks it can shove anyone aside that stands in its way.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Federal Government needs to step in now.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is not the Australia that I love and am proud of.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Please stand against this disgraceful behaviour."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I ask you to stand up with me for the people of the ACT, join with me in this fight against the ACT Government and support this legislation to force the ACT Government to conduct an inquiry into the legislation that enables the acquisition. This does not impact on the ACT Government's rights to make decisions, it is intended to ensure that there is public consultation on the decision that has been made, so that people can have their voices heard.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF URGENCY</title>
        <page.no>61</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF URGENCY</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Defence Force</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the Senate that Senator Lambie has submitted a proposal to the President under standing order 75:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today I propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"The government is refusing to acknowledge the poor senior leadership within the ADF. Everyone in the chain of command should be held accountable for their actions, irrespective of rank or hierarchy. Our ADF is in disarray with high attrition rates, low recruitment rates and significant issues with low morale due to the poor leadership standards being set by senior command."</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The government is refusing to acknowledge the poor senior leadership within the ADF. Everyone in the chain of command should be held accountable for their actions, irrespective of rank or hierarchy. Our ADF is in disarray with high attrition rates, low recruitment rates and significant issues with low morale due to the poor leadership standards being set by senior command.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to talk about leadership, what it means and what a great leader looks like. While I was jotting some notes down last night, I was thinking about great Australian military leaders that we've had in the past, and I kept keep coming back to one of our greatest, Sir John Monash. One of his famous quotes was:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… equip yourself for life, not solely for your own benefit but for the benefit of the whole community.</para></quote>
<para>I wonder what he would think about the leadership of our Australian Defence Force today. I wonder what he would think of an inquiry into alleged war crimes involving Australia's diggers that, from the outset, ruled out investigating the knowledge or responsibility of the senior command of our military. I wonder what Monash would say about ADF leaders asking for medals back from diggers but marking their own homework when it comes to their own medals. And I wonder what the leadership would think about sending diggers to Afghanistan on tour after tour—sometimes as many as 17 tours—to a war that dragged out for 20 years.</para>
<para>Monash was a great leader and always preferred substance over style. Of his time in the First World War, he said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We trusted each other, and we fought as one big team, and to this we owe our success. I hope that the lessons of mutual help, comradeship, and self-sacrifice will assist to make Australia a still greater country than at present.</para></quote>
<para>Did you hear that from General Angus Campbell? How do you think the diggers under your command in Afghanistan are feeling when their lives are under the microscope but their leaders are effectively saying, 'Nothing to see here—we're exempt from being looked at'?</para>
<para>I have ranted and sometimes raved and wept at the shocking lack of leadership in Defence for years. It's why I fought so hard to get into parliament. I experienced firsthand the lack of respect in the Department of Veterans' Affairs for those who have served. Their default system, 'delay, deny, die', is the order of the day. Why do you think we have historically low recruitment and retention rates? Why do you think we have record numbers of suicides and abuse claims that literally take years to be resolved? It's about the leadership and the culture that flows from leaders who don't take responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof, and don't look after their diggers.</para>
<para>In the fact of these facts and the disgraceful stories coming out of the Royal Commission into Defence and Veteran Suicide, it is shocking to me that the Australian government is refusing to acknowledge the poor leadership in the upper ranks of our Defence Force. Everyone in the chain of command must be held accountable, no matter how many medals they have and how many years they have served—that is the way it is. Let me tell you how they teach it: it's one in, all in, in uniform. You're part of the division that's going on in there between the diggers and the officers.</para>
<para>We have never needed our Defence Force more, and it is absolutely crucial that it is an institution that attracts the young leaders of tomorrow. If we want to build a Defence Force that young Australians aspire to join, a Defence Force that cares as much for the digger as the commander, then the failures of leadership and the deep culture of problems that we have must be acknowledged and must be addressed. I can assure you right now: you have a problem. And this is your big problem. Until you start admitting—until the government of the day starts admitting—that we have a problem with our leadership, your retention rate will continue to go down. And nobody out there wants to join. That is where you're at. This is not good for national security. This is not good for our military. You've got to stop avoiding this. You've got to start asking those generals questions. You've got to stop exempting them. Right now, I can tell you of the amount of hatred coming from diggers towards the generals and this parliament—this parliament, because you won't take on those generals—that is coming at us. I tell you what: it is coming in truckloads. It is awful. You do not want this going on in our military.</para>
<para>We are ultimately in charge, and the government of the day is in charge, not those generals. You need to show some courage, as part of the government. I say to your defence minister—not the one in charge of the personnel, but your big defence minister: you've to stop hiding, mate, because your time's up. I can tell you what: I know what's coming in the next week, and your time is over—and so are those generals.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to address this matter of urgency. I won't be supporting it, but I would like to address particularly the line where it talks about people in command being held accountable for their actions. I think accountability is incredibly important. And I recognise Senator Lambie's passion around these issues.</para>
<para>But it actually goes far broader than that, if we are looking to the national security of this nation, in every sense. For those who have an interest, I'd encourage you to go back to the ASPI website and see a paper I wrote in 2012 called 'Minister, mandarins and the military'. Another op-ed I wrote around a similar time is called 'Blaming Defence ... again'. What those two pieces highlight is that the public, the parliament, the media and the ANAO often do hold Defence officials, whether they be APS staff or uniformed leaders, accountable for things that occur within the Defence department. Sometimes that is quite correct; sometimes that is relevant. But often the issues which are held out—and they go to some of the things Senator Lambie has talked about, in terms of retention and recruitment and particularly also procurement and the development of our capabilities—actually involve not just the defence department but also central agencies, such as the Department of Finance, and the role of executive government. It's important to understand that decisions that are taken by governments and constraints that are placed on people within the Department of Defence, and the Australian Defence Force more broadly, can constrain their actions, such that people who have command don't always actually have control of all the resources that they require, to deliver the military response options that government asks of them and that the public expects of them.</para>
<para>We've had a number of reviews over the years. Rufus Black led a review looking at the organisational issues within Defence, and he noted that, in fact, the ADF command chain was actually pretty good, but the broader department had so many committees and so much process that it was difficult to actually track down who was accountable or responsible for particular decisions that had been taken. He recommended reducing the numbers of committees, and to a certain extent that was done in the first principles review, which was brought in by the coalition government in the 2014-15 time frame to try to bring more accountability but also to give more control over the required resources to Defence leaders.</para>
<para>Also at a government level, I am struck by the words of the former secretary, Mr Dennis Richardson, who in talking about the impact of the period from 2009 to 2013, when there were so many changes in strategic direction and funding, he said that the goalposts were not just shifted but 'cut down and used for firewood'. What that shows is that the planning that Defence does around capability, which goes to where we employ people and the equipment that they use, if you consistently change the goalposts, or, indeed, as Mr Richardson said, there is a lack of funding and you're robbing Peter to pay Paul, then it's difficult for leadership within the ADF to keep people motivated, when you have periods where ships are tied up alongside because there's no funding, there are no track miles for armoured vehicles and flying hours are reduced. This reduces not only the training of the individual soldiers, sailors and airmen but also the ability of formed units to actually train together and deliver capability for the Defence Force.</para>
<para>My fear when I look at the <inline font-style="italic">Defence </inline><inline font-style="italic">strategic review</inline> and the delays and deferrals, I look at the budget with no new funding and I look at the number of what we call absorbed measures where Defence will have to shift money from A to B, is that we'll see the same degradation that General Morrison said, in an address he gave, is a 'historical amnesia that is breathtaking in its complacency' about the dangers of hollowing out all the enabling capabilities in the Defence Force. It's harsh for us to criticise the leaders in Defence when many of these outcomes are not directly within their control. Australia needs a competent Defence Force now more than ever.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on behalf of the Greens to support this urgency motion brought by Senator Lambie. If we're going to talk about accountability then that needs to start at the top, not at the bottom. That means accountability for the current and former ministers for defence, the Defence secretary and the Chief of the Defence Force. We need accountability at all levels and by all elements of Australia's defence forces. That includes the hierarchy of powerful people presiding over murky decisions to basically gift billions of dollars of public funds to private multinational arms makers to wage endless wars—often with weapons that don't work—because it's good for business. Regardless of the security of this country, it's good for business, raining down hell on communities who have done nothing to deserve it, and no-one's held to account.</para>
<para>We need accountability for war crimes, and this needs to go well beyond just the individuals who were on the ground. They must be held to account, but any organisation that permits such serious criminal conduct needs to be subject to systemic reform, not just hanging out the lowest ranks to dry—and Defence should not be any different. Defence must not be a protected secret club with a culture of impunity that allows the senior leadership in Defence, both civilian and military, to literally get away with murder. The failure to prosecute anyone senior in the chain of command for the murders of Afghan civilians and prisoners is a national disgrace. The Brereton inquiry found credible evidence to implicate 25 current or former Australian Defence Force personnel in the alleged unlawful killing of 39 individuals and the cruel treatment of two others. This, as it turns out, was notorious—this conduct—and it was known to our allies. It was also enough to trigger Leahy law considerations in the US.</para>
<para>But what accountability have we seen here in Australia? Charges have finally been laid against just one junior member in the ADF. Meanwhile, the current head of Defence, who is the head of the entire operation in Afghanistan, is out there marking his own homework, deciding for himself in a pretend review of his own medals—medals that he got for serving 2,000 or 3,000 kilometres away from Afghanistan. He is literally marking his own homework. You couldn't make this stuff up.</para>
<para>Meanwhile, what does Labor do? It gets out there but it's not prosecuting the senior leadership of the ADF who let these war crimes happen on their watch—and they're always telling us about how they're all responsible for the chain of command. It turns out that they're responsible until the shit hits the fan, and then they're not. That's the responsibility we get. They're out there and their response is to try to put David McBride in jail because he blew the whistle on it. What a disgrace.</para>
<para>Accountability must also mean compensation. That means compensation for the victims of alleged Afghan war crimes. That's not on the never-never in the future; that means starting now. Families who lost their brothers, their sons and their loved ones a decade ago still haven't seen a cent, despite the war crimes investigation. That is plain unjust and wrong.</para>
<para>There also needs to be accountability for the billions and billions of dollars that the defence sector here just burns. This is public money. Take for example the procurement of the Hunter class frigates. These frigates are still well over the horizon. Defence were told in their own risk assessment that this project had extreme risks. The former Defence secretary ushered it through and put the BAE tender forward and, mysteriously, the records of why disappeared. The current Defence secretary promotes it to government. His department fails to even do a value-for-money assessment of the tender and signs the Australian public up to a $45 billion project. He never tests value for money. Mysteriously, he lost his own meeting minutes, failed to comply with the law on tender requirements and signed us up to this disastrous project, and he's still there. When we cancel the Hunter frigate project, as we will because it's a disastrous waste of money, he must resign. It's no wonder that the troops on the ground are furious and it's no wonder the public are losing trust, because in this case those who are most responsible are the least accountable.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, I ask you not to use unparliamentary language.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia I speak in support of Senator Lambie's motion of urgency addressing the appalling state of leadership in the Australian Defence Force. It's important to note that this motion isn't about our soldiers, our sailors and our aviators. They are among the world's best and are often the most motivated and disciplined men and women our country has produced. Yet politicians and the Australian Defence Force's higher leadership have repeatedly let down our Defence Force's amazing work. Time and time again the generals, the brass, have failed to demonstrate real leadership.</para>
<para>Our current Chief of the Defence Force, General Angus Campbell, wears the Distinguished Service Cross medal. He was awarded this medal supposedly for his command of troops in Afghanistan. There are questions over whether General Campbell was awarded this medal illegally. The criteria used to be that the recipient had to be in action, meaning in direct contact with the enemy. General Campbell spent most of his time in command sitting in an air-conditioned office in Dubai, thousands of kilometres from the battlefield.</para>
<para>Even if his medal was validly given, General Campbell is trying to strip the very same medal from people who were under his command and for whose behaviour he is responsible. It is a frightening exercise in double standards when General Campbell is awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for his command of the same people who he is now trying to strip it from for alleged wrongdoing.</para>
<para>Leadership means taking responsibility for everything under one's command. This isn't an opinion; the Yamashita standard enshrines it in international law. When the Japanese Imperial Army committed untold atrocities, it was the overall commander General Yamashita who was charged with the war crimes that happened under his watch. General Campbell alleges war crimes were committed, including during his time in command. He spits on the idea of command accountability with his actions. When I suggested to General Campbell at Senate estimates that handing back his medals would be the moral thing to do, he responded, 'That's very interesting, Senator'—contemptuous. For General Campbell to demonstrate leadership he would hand back his medals and resign today.</para>
<para>On General Campbell's allegations of war crimes it's important to note that, eight years after a discredited sociologist first levelled allegations, not a single criminal charge has produced a guilty verdict—not one. Instead of affording soldiers of our elite Special Air Service Regiment procedural fairness, General Campbell may as well have declared them guilty when, at a press conference, he announced the allegations and said sanctions would be applied—not a criminal court, a press conference. It seems General Campbell intends to add 'judge, jury and executioner' to his resume.</para>
<para>It's acquisitions department, the Australian Defence Force's higher leadership, washed its hands of accountability. Almost every Defence program has failed to meet budget, time or delivery goals. Billions upon billions of dollars are wasted every year in foreseeable project delays, poor project planning and badly defined deliverable goals. Yet everyone involved seems to still be getting promotions. Is the motto on the wall, for the higher brass, at defence headquarters 'Failing upwards'?</para>
<para>General Campbell even endorsed findings in the Brereton report complaining of a 'warrior culture in the SASR'. If you don't want warriors in the most elite fighting unit in this country and among the best special forces units in the world, where the hell do you want them? These issues are the reasons why defence recruitment is in crisis. Good soldiers are leaving because of the double standards flowing down from the top. It's absolutely demoralising. The entire top brass needs to face a reckoning, for the state of the Australian Defence Force, and I stand in support of Senator Lambie's calls for exactly that. We get so many calls from veterans and current service men and women asking us to do exactly that.</para>
<para>We say to our enlisted defence personnel: Australians know the good work you do and the effort and dedication you put into training to defend our country. Your job is applying state sanctioned violence, and no-one should shy away from this fact. It is a very difficult job. One Nation supports you all, and we will do everything we can to call for your poor leaders to face accountability for their actions and inactions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government does not support this motion. Members of the Australian Defence Force, at all ranks, volunteered to serve this nation in difficult and dangerous roles. They sign up for the burdens and demands that service requires of them. Their families make regular and profound sacrifices as postings and deployment alter the rhythms of family life.</para>
<para>Members of the Australian Defence Force, at all ranks, deserve our admiration and support. On 24 April this year the government released the public version of the <inline font-style="italic">Defence </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">trategic </inline><inline font-style="italic">r</inline><inline font-style="italic">eview</inline>, the government response to the review and the <inline font-style="italic">National defence statement 2023</inline>. Commissioned in the first 100 days of government, the review sets the agenda for ambitious but necessary reform to Defence's posture and structure. The government's response to the review sets out a blueprint for Australia's strategic policy, defence planning and resourcing over the coming decades.</para>
<para>The Albanese government has agreed or agreed in principle with further work required to the review recommendations and has identified six priority areas for immediate action. These priority areas include initiatives to improve the growth and retention of a highly skilled defence workforce. The <inline font-style="italic">Defence </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">trategic </inline><inline font-style="italic">r</inline><inline font-style="italic">eview</inline> identified the fact that the ADF is facing a personnel crisis. There are significant workforce challenges for Defence and defence industry. We have committed to addressing these challenges and investing in the growth and retention of a highly skilled defence workforce.</para>
<para>One of the six immediate priority areas identified in response to the <inline font-style="italic">Defence </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">trategic </inline><inline font-style="italic">r</inline><inline font-style="italic">eview</inline> is the need to both grow and retain our ADF personnel. The Albanese government is moving to immediately respond to the <inline font-style="italic">Defence </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">trategic </inline><inline font-style="italic">r</inline><inline font-style="italic">eview</inline> by investing almost $400 million to establish a continuation bonus initiative. This initiative will be available to permanent ADF members, at the end of their initial mandatory period of service, who have served a minimum of four years. Near the completion of their initial contract, members could be eligible for a $50,000 bonus payment if they serve another three years.</para>
<para>The continuation bonus is expected to benefit approximately 3,400 ADF personnel in the first three years of the scheme. The bonus will be implemented from 2024 and reviewed after two years, to ensure it is contributing to increased retention rates. To complement this initiative, the Albanese government is also committing $2 million this financial year for a review into defence housing. The government recognises the challenges facing all Australians, when it comes to homeownership. This is particularly prevalent for a mobile workforce such as the ADF.</para>
<para>The Albanese government is already delivering important reforms in this area, including through the $46.2 million expansion of the Defence Home Ownership Assistance Scheme, announced at the October budget. But we know there is more that can be done to improve these systems. It is clear that current Defence homeownership benefits are struggling to keep pace with the Australian property market and meet the changing needs of our service personnel and their families. The government deeply appreciates those who serve in the ADF. Investing in those members and increasing support ensures Australia has the defence structure and posture needed to meet our strategic circumstances. That is the government's objective.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is the motion moved by Senator Lambie, agreed to</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:39]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Walsh)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>16</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>21</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>White, L.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ukraine</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Senate will now consider the proposal received from Senator Chandler:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today I propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"The mounting need for Australia to deliver a further package of military, humanitarian and energy assistance to Ukraine, especially given the failure of the recent Budget to provide any new support and Australia's slippage in support relative to likeminded partners."</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The mounting need for Australia to deliver a further package of military, humanitarian and energy assistance to Ukraine, especially given the failure of the recent Budget to provide any new support and Australia's slippage in support relative to likeminded partners.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to speak on this motion regarding the urgent need for Australia to provide more assistance to the Ukraine government. We have all seen the horrific human impact of Russia's invasion. We've all seen clear evidence of war crimes against both Ukrainian soldiers and the civilian population. We've seen the deliberate bombing of civilian residences, hospitals, power infrastructure and other non-military targets in tactics designed to inflict suffering and death on the Ukrainian population. And it is plain that defeating Russia's invasion is critical not only for Ukraine but also for the rest of the world. Putin must not be allowed to send a message to his fellow authoritarian leaders that they can invade any neighbouring country and obtain victory, particularly if that victory comes through an unwillingness of the West to do what needs to be done to defeat Russia's aggression, an aggression which will only grow if they are successful in defeating Ukraine.</para>
<para>At the outset of Russia's invasion, Australia was at the forefront of providing assistance to the people of Ukraine. Under the former coalition government, Australia was one of the earliest and biggest non-NATO contributors to Ukraine. Our support covered assistance across the humanitarian, military, energy and visa categories and included $285 million in military assistance; $65 million in humanitarian assistance; funding to NATO's trust fund for Ukraine to support non-lethal military equipment and medical supplies; and the delivery of 60 pallets of medical supplies donated by Australians to the Ukrainian government, along with three pallets of radiation-monitoring equipment and personal protective equipment. We gave priority to family stream visa applications from Ukrainian nationals and established a new temporary humanitarian visa for Ukrainians arriving in Australia, which enabled them to study, work and access Medicare while here. Since February, more than 9½ thousand visas have been granted to Ukrainians to come to Australia. We also provided funding to a range of NGOs and community groups to support the provision of aid, donations and support to the refugees and citizens of Ukraine.</para>
<para>But now we have a situation where Australia has dramatically slipped down the list of nations providing assistance to Ukraine. This situation could not be more urgent. For months, the Ukrainian government has been pleading for vital military equipment and resources to support its counteroffensive. They have made a series of specific requests of Australia for equipment which could help the Ukrainians to gain decisive ground in their battle against Russia. These requests have been within our capacity to meet.</para>
<para>Yet, at the recent Senate estimates just a couple of weeks ago, key departments, including the Department of Defence and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, stated that there is no provision at all in their budgets for additional support to Ukraine. It seems that assistance to Ukraine is caught up in the same situation as the rest of our defence budget, with the Albanese government demanding cuts in defence to pay for other priorities. We urge the swift announcement of a new and comprehensive package of Australian military, humanitarian and energy assistance to Ukraine, underpinned by thorough consideration of the Ukrainian government's specific requests, including for Hawkeis, M1 Abrams tanks, F/A-18 Hornets and de-mining equipment and detectors.</para>
<para>If, for some reason, these capabilities cannot be made available to the Ukrainian government, we urge this government to explain today to the Senate why not and to provide an alternative package of support. I don't think it would be any surprise to anybody listening along to this debate at home that Ukraine cannot wait for this assistance. They cannot wait for a media announcement timed to coincide with a prime ministerial visit or the government's media schedule. They need a commitment now and they need that commitment followed by swift delivery. I urge the government speakers today to provide clarity on when our next package of assistance to Ukraine will be announced and to guarantee that we in Australia are doing whatever is necessary to meet the requests that Ukraine has made.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the chair of the Australia-Ukraine Parliamentary Friendship Group and also as a member of the Australian Ukrainian community, it would be of little surprise to people in this place that I've had a lot of involvement with the Ukrainian community since well before Russia's illegal full-scale invasion started. I also have regular meetings with the co-chairs of the Australian Federation of Ukrainian Organisations, Stefan Romaniw OAM and Kateryna Argyrou, and with the Ambassador of Ukraine to Australia, His Excellency Vasyl Myroshnychenko. They are grateful for all the military, humanitarian and moral support Australia has given under both the previous government and the current government. The approach to the ongoing crisis has, until recently, been bipartisan. In fact, it has been supported by the whole parliament.</para>
<para>As a matter of principle, the global community, including Australia, cannot stand idly by while a sovereign nation is subjected to an illegal, immoral and unprovoked invasion. By flouting the rules based order that has maintained relative global peace and security since the end of World War II, Russia's invasion of Ukraine is an attack on all sovereign countries. We owe a huge debt of gratitude to the Ukrainian people for the extraordinary courage and resolve they have shown. By fighting to uphold this rules based order, they fight for all of us.</para>
<para>Since coming to government, Labor has continued the previous government's policy of providing military assistance to Ukraine while continuing to maintain the capability to defend our own nation if necessary. Our support to date includes 50 Bushmaster armoured vehicles in addition to the 40 committed under the previous government, more armoured vehicles, de-mining equipment to help remove explosive ordinance from the battlefield, $33 million in uncrewed aerial systems and sending 70 Australian Defence Force personnel to take part in Operation Kudu for the training of Ukrainian forces. The commitments made by this government bring Australia's total contribution in military, humanitarian and other assistance to over $680 million, and we remain one of the world's largest contributors to Ukraine outside of NATO.</para>
<para>The material assistance we have given to Ukraine is backed up by costs imposed on Russia to deter and disrupt their illegal actions. Australia has now imposed more than 1,100 sanctions on Russia, including targeted financial sanctions and travel bans on 90 individuals and 40 entities. Our sanctions ban the import of Russian oil, refined petroleum products, coal, gas and gold and the export to Russia of aluminium, bauxite and luxury goods, including wine and cosmetics. The Australian government has directed Export Finance Australia to reject any requests for loans or other finance that support trade with or investment in Russia or Belarus.</para>
<para>Of course, we continue to talk to the government of Ukraine and give careful consideration to all requests for assistance. We will continue to do all we can to assist Ukraine for as long as it takes. In fact, the Deputy Prime Minister has indicated that we will have another iteration of support for Ukraine. This will be announced when the details are finalised.</para>
<para>Throughout the course of the war in Ukraine, I have made it my practice not to politicise the issue of assistance for Ukraine, and I strongly encourage other senators on both sides of the chamber to take the same approach. The reason I have taken this approach is that I strongly believe that arguments over Ukraine, rather than the united front we have so far seen either nationally or globally, undermines the unity and strength of resolve that we demonstrate to the world and to Russia. Continuing the spirit of bipartisanship sends a strong message to Russia that we as a parliament, regardless of who is in government, are united and unwavering in our resolve to condemn and oppose Russia's actions and to help Ukraine achieve victory, just like when we all stood together in the House of Representatives chamber, shoulder to shoulder with Ambassador Myroshnychenko one year after Russia's full-scale invasion, in a show of solidarity with Ukraine.</para>
<para>Perhaps the opposition, if they wish to show their support for Ukraine, could address Liberal and National backbenchers who throw insults at the Ukrainian leader on the floor of the Senate and flirt with Russian disinformation in podcast interviews. As such, I invite those opposite to reflect on whether the urgency motion they've put forward now and their contributions to the debate on this motion are a contribution to the efforts to assist Ukraine. Politicising this issue, doing anything that undermines the spirit of bipartisanship that has continued up until this point, does not serve Australia's interests. Nor does it serve Ukraine's interests. Shame on you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let us ground this debate in the reality that 481 days have passed since Russia's illegal and immoral invasion of Ukraine, 481 days in which the Ukrainian people have confronted the most terrible violence at the hands of the Russian war machine, 481 days in which they have been subject to war crimes, 481 days in which they have been subject to the taking of their children and 481 days in which they have gone to sleep not knowing, many of them, whether their homes would be standing in the morning, whether their sons and daughters would still be alive and whether their nation would endure.</para>
<para>Well, for 481 days, the Ukrainian nation has endured. The Ukrainian nation continues. The Ukrainian nation pushes back. As we gather in the Senate this evening, we are entering the third week of the Ukrainian counteroffensive in the east. The fighting is most intense, according to the UK Ministry of Defence, around Zaporizhzhia, Donetsk, Oblast and Bakhmut. As towns are liberated in fierce fighting, what is revealed is the ruin of homes and of communities, places that will require incredible amounts of work to rebuild and people who will require and need so much support to heal.</para>
<para>So, as we consider as a Senate what more the Australian government could do in order to lend assistance to the nation of Ukraine, what more the Australian government could do to put tangible action behind its words of solidarity, I once again urge the government to look at the real need for an international program of debt relief for Ukraine. The Ukrainian nation, once it is victorious on the battlefield, cannot be expected to rebuild and to heal while paying back the incredible sums of money that have been required to finance this effort. We would be doing the people of Ukraine a great disservice if, as the ticker tape of the victory parade fades, we abandoned them to a life in the shadow of debt and austerity. We must work internationally to bring together nations for this program of debt relief so that peace can truly follow victory.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to support this motion regarding support to Ukraine. I welcome the call for bipartisanship and I note that we have very enthusiastically welcomed any announcements of support, including the sanctions and other things the government has given to the effort to defeat a totalitarian regime which shamefully, despite being on the Security Council and supposedly upholding the global rules-based order and security for smaller nations, has illegally invaded their neighbour to impose their will. The problem we have is that we want to do more barracking for this effort, but we're looking for more decisions from the government to provide support. Even ABC Fact Check has called out the Prime Minister for continuing to claim that Australia is the largest non-NATO contributor when that is no longer true and hasn't been for some time because of decreasing levels of support. So we would welcome the opportunity to celebrate and cheer more support from the government, but, given the fact that there is an offensive to liberate the eastern parts of Ukraine underway as we speak, that needs to occur sooner rather than later.</para>
<para>The other thing in this area that I think is important is for the government to do all it can to get other stakeholders and interlocutors in global affairs to use whatever influence they have over the Putin regime to get Russia to withdraw from Ukraine and to respect its sovereignty. In particular, I would encourage the government of President Xi Jinping in China, who have an all-in, no-holds-barred relationship with the Putin regime, to use whatever influence they have to get a better outcome.</para>
<para>I go to some particular measures that I think the government can make a decision on today. During estimates, the department of foreign affairs were talking about their emergency humanitarian fund. As we explored that fund, it was confirmed that they have $12.9 million uncommitted in that fund. At the same time, we see reports coming out of Ukraine—in two reports in particular that I'd like to refer to, by Save the Children—that, as of April, over 500 children have been confirmed as having been killed in Ukraine since Russia's unjustified and illegal invasion, and over 900, nearly a thousand, are confirmed to have been injured. And it is feared that those numbers are actually much greater. There are mine incidents daily in Ukraine, and one in eight casualties of landmines are children.</para>
<para>The other thing to be aware of is that there are 17,000-odd people that have been affected, after the damage to the dam, by the flooding that has occurred around the Dnipro river. In Australia we're all used to floods and the damage and disease they cause, and other impacts. The unique part there is that those waters have raced through the land and unearthed landmines, and now there is this scattering of landmines throughout that flood plain, which affect communities, particularly children, in those areas.</para>
<para>For that $12.9 million—there is an Australian capability, a group called Minelab, who make the world's most advanced mine detection system, the MDS-10, which is used by the American Department of Defense. It's also used by NGOs, such as the HALO Trust, who conduct mine-clearing operations in conflict zones worldwide. There is an opportunity, in the last eight or so working days before the end of the financial year, for the government to commit the $12.9 million that is uncommitted in the emergency humanitarian fund. If there was ever a cause which is an emergency humanitarian need, from both the flooding and particularly the mine characteristics, where we could be saving the lives of innocent men, women and children, it is the provision of de-mining equipment as well as training to the Ukrainian government, to their society and to international groups to support their work there. So, quite apart from the military announcements that we are looking for—including the 41 Hornets, which I think should be delivered, particularly with American support around spares and maintenance—there is no reason why that $12.9 million can't be committed right now to provide de-mining equipment for the children of Ukraine.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHITE</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government supports this urgency motion. This is based on our record of support for Ukraine and the concern we have about the motivations of the coalition, who are seeking to politicise foreign policy for cheap political gain. Firstly, I want to put on record in this place my support for Ukraine in its fight against Russian oppression. For nearly 16 months, the Ukrainian people have been locked in a gruelling war they did not start and which has taken so much from them. I'm proud to stand with Ukraine as it defends its people, its territory and its sovereignty.</para>
<para>After the bleak consequences of both the Second World War and the Cold War in the 20th century, we're now seeing the reality of another full-scale invasion in Europe. This is a reality I find disheartening and shocking. I don't really like talking about war in this place. I do not wish to condone it or to pretend that I agree it is ever permissible; however, I acknowledge that sometimes in life we must pick sides. The people of Ukraine have no choice but to defend themselves against unprovoked aggression from the Russian state, and, on that basis, we in this place must support the efforts of Ukraine to protect themselves.</para>
<para>In that vein, I also want to make mention of the efforts in advocating for Ukraine of my colleague and friend Senator Bilyk. Senator Bilyk has a personal connection to Ukraine, as she has spoken of today, and, since the beginning of the war, she has worked to publicise the efforts of the Ukrainian people in defending their lands. I thank her for her leadership in this place on Ukraine.</para>
<para>I want to step out the support that the Australian government, particularly the Labor government, has provided to the people and government of Ukraine since the invasion began. In my view, that support has been significant. In military terms, Australia has remained one of the largest contributors both within our region and as a non-NATO-member country. In fact, our government has nearly doubled the dollar amount spent on military support for Ukraine. We have spent over $680 million since we took office in May last year. We have provided 90 Bushmasters, a number of armoured vehicles, explosives removal equipment and ADF personnel to help train Ukrainian troops in the United Kingdom, to name some of the initiatives. Ukraine cannot win the war against Russia without military equipment, and the government acknowledges that difficult fact.</para>
<para>The humanitarian response of the Australian government is also an important aspect of our support of Ukraine. We are extending immigration support and access to social safety nets for Ukrainian nationals in Australia and Ukrainians seeking to come here, fleeing war zones and violence. This sort of humanitarian and practical administrative help for those fleeing the terror of war is really important because it contributes to the safety of Ukrainian citizens and maintains important links between Australia's Ukrainian community and their family and friends back home.</para>
<para>Lastly, the government has taken serious action to make sure that the Russian state and Russian economy do not profit from the war in Ukraine, and to press those financing the illegal invasion to stop pouring money into it. Senator Bilyk detailed these measures in great detail, but I remind you that there are more than 1,100 targeted financial sanctions and trade sanctions on key Russian individuals and industries that look to prevent the importation of Russian oil, coal, gas and gold.</para>
<para>All of this military, humanitarian, diplomatic and economic support provided to Ukraine shows that the Australian government is committed to maintaining and reinforcing the international rules-based order, a system which represents the best shot we have at avoiding war and preserving peace. Russia needs to be held to account. The illegal invasion of another country, undertaken in the way Russia invaded Ukraine, is not acceptable. This should always be the case.</para>
<para>It's also worth pointing out that until recently the question of government support for Ukraine was a bipartisan and non-politicised question. However, I must acknowledge that even me standing here to debate an urgency motion raised by Senator Chandler represents the latest desperate attempt by the coalition to politicise important matters of foreign policy.</para>
<para>Finally, I say: I'm proud of the government's record of support for Ukraine and I stand with Ukraine.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DA</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>VID POCOCK () (): I thank you for the opportunity to debate this important urgency motion. I'm proud to stand and speak as a representative of members of my community, including Canberran Ukrainians who are seeking additional support for Ukraine. Here are the words of my constituent Andrew Liszczynsky:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Ukrainian community here is still outraged about the invasion.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ukraine is a sovereign nation that is grimly defending that sovereignty.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Ukrainian community here and all over Australia and the rest of the world continue to protest this Russian aggression and will continue to do so whilst Russian forces are in Ukraine.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ukraine is determined to defend all things Ukrainian and the world is showing massive support because this is simply wrong. Putin will lose and Ukraine will prevail!</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week I met with the Ukrainian Ambassador to Australia. He told me the Ukrainians are very grateful for the support they have already received from the government and the Australian people. The government has provided Bushmasters and ammunition, and the ADF is involved in training Ukrainian troops in the United Kingdom.</para>
<para>While grateful, the ambassador assured me that there is a real and desperate need for more help right now—not tomorrow. The counteroffensive is on and the Ukrainians are fighting hard but with heavy losses of life every day. When the Prime Minister announced the package for Ukraine last year, he said that Australian support for Ukraine will continue 'for as long as it takes for Ukraine to emerge victorious'.</para>
<para>I've got the perfect date for the government to announce more help for Ukrainians, including 90 Hawkeis and more Bushmasters. That day is 24 August—Ukraine's day of independence. I have to say: stop going in half-pregnant, and give it everything you've got because it's the only way you are going to give those Ukrainians a fighting chance to win this war. No more half-pregnancy—get in there and go hard.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to speak in support of this important urgency motion, and I commend Senator Chandler for this motion and this initiative. For months now, need has been mounting for this Labor government to deliver a further package of military, humanitarian and energy assistance to Ukraine—something that has and continues to be overwhelmingly supported by the Australian people. It is time now for less spin and more action, which would be incredibly welcomed by Australians.</para>
<para>In the spirit of bipartisanship, and also drawing on my own background, I've been working very closely with the Ukrainian Ambassador to Australia and Australian de-mining experts to prepare an options paper for the ambassador and the Australian government on what Australia can do to assist Ukraine with de-mining and also with mine action. It is a modest but incredibly meaningful and important package and one that can save so many civilian lives now and well into the future. The need is absolutely great and it is urgent and it will be ongoing.</para>
<para>Since the start of the Russia-Ukraine war in early 2014, Russia has used a wide range of explosive ordnance throughout Ukraine, including mines, cluster munitions, booby traps, mortars, artillery, rockets and missiles. They are also now using improvised explosive devices aimed at women and children. They're rigged up in houses, in streets and even in children's toys. Ukraine is now the most mined country in the world and, unsurprisingly, de-mining is now the third most important issue for Ukrainians after shelling and also family reunions. The UNDP estimates that nearly 15 million Ukrainians are impacted by landmines and other explosive ordnance. It's estimated now that 30 per cent of this very large nation has been contaminated with landmines, which, to put it in perspective, is half the size of Japan or Italy.</para>
<para>While Ukrainian explosive ordnance disposal and combat engineer personnel are very capable, there are simply not enough of them to meet the competing demands of combat operational support and humanitarian mine clearance. The humanitarian assistance is also very ably assisted, as Senator Fawcett has said, through organisations such as the UNDP and the Halo Trust.</para>
<para>There are two types of mine action responses desperately needed to be supported in Ukraine. Firstly, there's combat or operational de-mining or mine clearance, which is conducted by uniformed service personnel within the combat zone itself. Secondly, there is humanitarian mine action, which covers surveys, clearances, risk education for civilians and victim assistance. And here in Australia we can provide both. We are incredibly—sadly—experienced in both.</para>
<para>Australia also is home to specialist technologies and businesses, such as Minelab and Gap Explosive Ordnance Detection, that are already supporting the Ukrainian humanitarian mine action, but so much more could be done. We have extensive military and civilian experience in humanitarian mine action and combat de-mining. The ADF has supported, for many years, de-mining efforts in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Cambodia and Mozambique, and many of our retired, highly-trained ex-ADF personnel have continued to support and often lead these missions around the world.</para>
<para>I firmly believe, and this was in my proposal, that Australia should be providing a skilled training team to deliver basic counter-explosive hazards, high-risk engineer search and explosive ordnance disposal training to Ukrainian armed forces. I propose that this could and should be conducted as part of the third rotation of Operation Kudu, which is training delivered in the United Kingdom. We have the capacity, we have the experience, we have the materiel and we have the equipment to do this and provide this support tomorrow.</para>
<para>The ambassador did write last month to the Defence minister, Richard Marles, asking for practical de-mining assistance that had been outlined in this paper. But a month later he still has not heard back, and neither have I. In that spirit of bipartisanship it is time for the government to start acting and supporting practical, meaningful things that can save so many lives in Ukraine and work in conjunction with so many other nations. So the time is now for the Labor government to act, for them to have a look at the proposal and tell us what they're going to do in conjunction with everything else my colleagues have talked about today.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time allotted for this debate has expired. The question is that the motion moved by me be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>SmartCard Scheme</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a document relating to the order for production of documents relating to the SmartCard scheme.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are there any other senators wishing to take note of that statement?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ministers of State Amendment Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6967" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Ministers of State Amendment Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">The Ministers of State Amendment Bill 2022 provides for greater transparency and accountability in Commonwealth administration. It will ensure the Australian people are able to access information relating to the composition of the Federal Executive Council, those appointed to administer certain Departments of State, and the high offices that Ministers of State hold.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms are a vital part of the Government's response to the Report of the <inline font-style="italic">Inquiry into the Appointment of the Former Prime Minister to Administer Multiple Departments</inline>, led by former High Court Justice, the Honourable Virginia Bell AC. The Report was provided to the Government on 25 November 2022 and has been published on the Inquiry's website. This Bill demonstrates the Government's readiness to act promptly to restore the Australian people's confidence in our Federal system of government, and to rebuild integrity in public sector institutions, processes and officials.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Of course, the genesis of the Bell Inquiry stemmed from media reports in August this year that the former Prime Minister, the Member for Cook, had been appointed to administer multiple portfolios during 2020 and 2021—namely the Departments of Health; Finance; Industry, Science, Energy and Resources; Treasury; and Home Affairs—in addition to his appointment to administer the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government referred these matters to the Solicitor-General, Dr Stephen Donaghue KC. Dr Donaghue advised: "The principles of responsible government are fundamentally undermined by the actions of the former government." Following the Solicitor-General's advice, it was also clear that an appropriate Inquiry was needed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bell Inquiry examined how this happened, why it happened, and who knew about it. It is essential that we have transparency in our government processes because our system of parliamentary democracy relies upon conventions, and the Westminster traditions of checks and balances. As was made very clear by the Solicitor-General: "It is impossible for the Parliament to hold ministers to account for the administration of departments if it does not know which ministers are responsible for which departments."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government commends Ms Bell for her service in leading this Inquiry. She conducted her review with professionalism and dedication. Her report is comprehensive and even-handed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has accepted all of Ms Bell's recommendations and the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet has been directed to implement them. Introduction of this Bill is part of that task.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Specifically, the Ministers of State Amendment Bill 2022 will require the Official Secretary to the Governor-General to publish a notifiable instrument on the Federal Register of Legislation as soon as reasonably practicable in the following circumstances: when the Governor-General has chosen, summoned and sworn an Executive Councillor to the Federal Executive Council; appointed an officer to administer a Department of State; or directed a Minister of State to hold an office. It will also require notification on the revocation of any of these positions to be published.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The notifiable instrument will include the name of the person, the Department of State (where appropriate) and the date on which they were sworn, appointed or directed. In the case of revocations, the notifiable instrument is to include the name of the person, the name of the former office, and the date that such membership, appointment or direction was revoked. The notifiable instrument may also comprise a copy of an instrument issued by the Governor-General.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The introduction of this Bill shows the Government is delivering on its promise to restore trust and integrity to federal politics—the centrepiece of which is the establishment of a powerful, transparent and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The measures in the Bill will restore integrity and transparency to the process of appointing elected officials to high office, and ensure we have a system of government where there are checks and balances. Never again will one person be able to garner powers without adequate, and warranted, accountability to the Australian people and the Australian Parliament.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>72</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee</title>
          <page.no>72</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>72</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In continuation of my remarks: what I want the Senate to approve is to have an inquiry into Aboriginal identity fraud. The Labor Party is in denial and have clearly stated they don't believe there is identity fraud. Now, I have named a few cases and I believe that there is identity fraud, as we've seen, and I've pointed out to them that there are federal cases in law that there is definitely identity fraud.</para>
<para>What I keep coming back to all the time is the number of people who are jumping on the bandwagon, claiming Aboriginality, because the three-part definition is weak; it is not strong enough to stop identity fraud. As I said, people are claiming to be Aboriginal, clearly, for cheaper home loans and business loans; they're claiming Aboriginality.</para>
<para>If you go back to the 1971 first census, there were just about 116,000 people who claimed to be Aboriginal on that census; by 1996, it was 265,000; and, in 2016, you were looking at around 250,000. Yet, in the last one, it had increased, from that time, 25.2 per cent, and the rest of the population had increased only eight per cent with immigration. So a lot of people are ticking the box. Why it's important also is: this is not investigated, because we go on the census to give funding to these Aboriginal communities or Aboriginal people, and a lot of these Aboriginal organisations get their funding purely based on the census and how many people are claiming Aboriginality. A lot of people are claiming it and ticking the box because they're incensed and furious that you are giving out funding to people purely based on their race, not on their need. And that's why people are furious about it.</para>
<para>That's why people are furious also about the Voice—a voice to parliament for less than three per cent of the population. Native title claimants have to go through a process to make a native title claim. There are about 400,000 to 430,000 people that have been approved as native title claimants, with a connection to the land going back prior to 1788, that can make the claim. Why don't we have that same test? No, you don't want it. And you're actually shutting down debate in this place or an investigation into it—an inquiry—because you don't want this to be out in the open.</para>
<para>Labor, I've got to say, didn't want me to stand up today and talk about this further. You wanted to shut it down. You don't want the people to know the truth as to what is actually happening. You're deceptive. You lie to the people. You are not upfront in telling the truth of the matter, with many things.</para>
<para>I got up in this parliament and I called today for the production of documents to do with the disability scheme. Yet you did not allow me to get those documents, which, again, could prove fraud, misappropriation of moneys and corruption. You shut it down, because you're in denial. You don't want the truth to come out. Yet you put the onus on other departments—on everyone else—to have accountability.</para>
<para>When the Prime Minister took up the position, he said: 'I will have accountability.' Well, you have not proven it in this chamber. You've covered up so much. You're not interested in being upfront with the Australian people.</para>
<para>It's the same with identity fraud. It's out there—you know it is—but you're in denial and you say it's not, because you don't want to have an inquiry into it, to expose what is going on in this country. You're all about the Voice to Parliament, because you don't want anything to disrupt that—what you're telling the people.</para>
<para>As I said, you have this Sri Lankan fellow and 100 members of his extended family practising this deception for more than 30 years, who've received millions of dollars worth of benefits, including through housing loans, business loans, study grants, employment preferences and legal assistance. You have the NIAA; $4.5 billion a year is given to them. There's over a billion dollars in grants in one year—2021-22. That's 1,500 grants given out, worth $1.03 billion in one year. There's no investigation into these grants and people. Even the staff of the NIAA never kept their skills. They really, truly should have jobs as investigators.</para>
<para>So the people applying for the grants are not thoroughly investigated. You've given them further grants; you don't follow up and see if the jobs have been done; you are not accountable to the Australian people; and you scream out and cry about many issues in this chamber. We're short for money. I've got to tell you: you've run up another debt. In four years, you've run up the deficit by another $110 billion, and you're still not accountable. So why aren't you accountable? Why can't you be honest with the people?</para>
<para>As I said, as to the fraud, in 2012 the actor Jack Charles applied to the federal government's arts funding body, the Australia Council for the Arts, for a grant to write a book about his life. He had been working in theatre since 1971 and also had some roles in minor documentaries and feature films. Like most actors, Charles thought he was a famous person who would not need to establish his identity. So, when the Australia Council followed its protocol and asked him to prove his Aboriginality so that it could properly consider his funding application, he was deeply offended. He made this as widely known as he could, especially to a sympathetic news media. The resulting publicity quickly caused the Australia Council to cave in, not only in Charles's case but for all other Aboriginal applicants too. It changed its protocols so that, since then, when Aboriginal people are applying for grants, they have not been required to prove their ethnic identity. That was from the Federal Court. He applied to the Federal Court. So that's exactly what I've been saying all along. That's why it is imperative.</para>
<para>As I said to you before, you've even hailed Bruce Pascoe's <inline font-style="italic">Dark Emu</inline> as true: 'My god, this book is so true.' This man who has claimed to be an Aboriginal has got no Aboriginality at all—none, not a smidgen—and you hold him up as if he's the bee's knees. Is he going to be one of the people who's going to be elected to actually be the Voice to Parliament—a non-Indigenous person? Is that what you really want?</para>
<para>Why shouldn't these people prove who they are and their Indigenous connection to the land? But it shouldn't be about that. As I said in 1996, what we should be talking about is equality for all Australians, regardless of what your race is. It should be on a needs basis. You are dividing this nation. You're pushing for a voice, but I'll tell you what: what I'm hearing is that it's not going to get up. The people are not being fooled by this. They're starting to realise that they've been deceived and have not been told the truth. They are asking, 'Why are you so determined to put it in the Constitution so that it can't be removed?' Even your own senator, Senator Polley, said, 'We want to put it in the Constitution so that it can't be removed.' There are a few senators that don't mean to say these things but are putting out a clear message to the people. I will keep informing the people. It is a deception.</para>
<para>These people—these black activists—are people with their own agendas and people who have screamed out the loudest, as if they're so hard done by. No, they're not hard done by. They've been given opportunities in this country that they would never have had if it wasn't for white settlement here in this nation. These people have become professors. Look at Marcia Langton and look at what Noel Pearson has achieved. Look at what a lot of these people have. Jacinta Nampijinpa Price, someone who I respect immensely, is a person who is in this place on her own merits. It's the same that you get from Senator McCarthy and Senator Dodson—all these people on their own merits—and yet you can't even answer the question: do you intend to put aside seats in this parliament for only black senators? That's what it's going to be about.</para>
<para>It's disgraceful what you intend to do here. Why don't you be upfront with the people? What have you got to hide? Why not have a Senate inquiry into it and prove there is no identity fraud? What is wrong with that? Why can't you answer the Australian people? Because you don't want to. You know the truth will come out, and you don't know how to deal with it. That's why you didn't even allow me the first reading speech on my bill to address Australian aboriginality and Indigenous identity in this nation. You are too weak, too gutless, to actually face up to the Australian people and be truthful and honest. But that's the Labor Party through and through. I've seen it for many years in this place. You say one thing one minute and do something totally different the next. You're deceptive to the Australian people. I'll keep calling you out as much as I possibly can. I will prove to the Australian people that they should vote no to this. They should demand answers. They should ask what your hidden agenda is for this nation.</para>
<para>I call on the Australian people to please look at it wisely. Gather your information. Forget about the motions and the whole lot saying they were the first people here. Whether I was born here, whether you were born here or whether you migrated here, they have no more right to this land than what I or you do—no more right and no more connection to this land than anyone else and especially the people who have fought for what we have today, our freedom.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Brown, that the question be put, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:31]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>PRESIDENT (): The question is that the motion moved by Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:35]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6991" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>75</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I was interrupted, I was talking about the struggles that so many students face—living in poverty, with totally inadequate student and youth allowance, and then ending up at the end of their degrees with this massive burden of debt around their necks—and about how the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023 is going to give some support to students but the cost is that it's actually going to increase the amount of debt that they've got and how this is just not doing our future generations any favours at all.</para>
<para>I have just met, for example, with the president and vice-president of the Australian Medical Students Association, and they had three concerns that they wanted to raise with me. One was the medical students cost-of-living crisis. The second was medical students in the rental crisis. The impact of the cost of living on those living in poverty is really hitting all students hard. For medical students, the consequences included people having to drop out of their studies and people not being supported because they have to live on a totally inadequate youth allowance and are living in poverty and cannot afford to live. The reality of the workload of doing a medical degree is that you just have not got the time to do any part-time work, which means it's incredibly inequitable. It means that the only people that can afford to really devote themselves to their studies are those who either have been working for a long time themselves to build up the reserves so that they can continue to afford their studies or have got a very well-off family behind them that can afford to support them. This means that working-class kids, people that you'd really want to be doing a medical degree, just can't afford to do it, and they drop out.</para>
<para>In fact, the Medical Students Association were telling me that, for one of the people that I met with, they had seen if they could organise their study load so that they could afford to fit in part-time work, and it was basically, 'No, you need to be at uni from 8 am to 5 pm every day, so there's no time for you to do part-time work.' What was suggested to the person was that they might like to take a year off from their studies to go and work and build up some income so that they could then come back—that is, delaying their studies for yet another year and probably, because they were building up that amount of money, living in poverty for another year.</para>
<para>We've got to be able to do more. Although this bill is going to give support to students, it's not the direction that we need to be going in. Basically, we need to be making different budget choices. As I said earlier and as our spokesperson for education, Senator Faruqi, will be putting in the second reading amendment, we feel that we should be wiping all student debt rather than adding to student debt. The cost of wiping all student debt is estimated to be $60 billion over 10 years, which sounds like a pretty substantial amount of money—nothing to sneeze at. But what I want to point out is how affordable that would actually be if we had a government that was willing to raise the revenue, to consider that supporting students and other people to not live in poverty was worth it, and to make some budget choices in order to support people rather than giving tax breaks to the big end of town.</para>
<para>So we have $60 billion, on the one hand, to wipe student debt. On the other hand, how much revenue could we raise if we had a government that was serious about it? The obvious one, of course, is to scrap the stage 3 tax cuts. The stage 3 tax cuts, over 10 years, are going to cost the budget bottom line over $300 billion. That's five times the amount of revenue that would be needed to wipe out all student debt. Then you could add in the fossil fuel subsidies. We're currently subsidising the burning of coal, gas and oil, which is creating the climate crisis. We are subsidising that fossil fuel use by over $100 billion. Get rid of all of those subsidies. There we go. We've now got $400 billion that could be raised over the next decade.</para>
<para>We've had a lot of talk about housing and how to increase affordable housing and make rents more affordable. Instead of having negative gearing and capital gains tax discounts, you could actually be putting money into building more affordable housing. If you scrapped negative gearing and capital gains tax discounts for second, or more, properties that would save over $100 billion over the next 10 years. You could institute a billionaires tax; our proposed billionaires tax would be a six per cent tax on all of Australia's billionaires—the 122 billionaires. That's not very many people, but if you tax their wealth by six per cent annually that would raise $48 billion over the decade.</para>
<para>How about a super profits tax, incorporating actually getting a decent amount of money out of the petroleum resource rent tax? A 40 per cent super profits tax on corporations with more than $100 million in turnover in Australia would yield $430 billion over the decade—$430 billion! That puts the cost of wiping student debt almost into small change. These are the sorts of choices that could be made. We can afford to wipe student debt and we can afford to have income support payments above the poverty line. We can afford to put dental into Medicare. We could do all of these things if we were making different choices.</para>
<para>And there are a few extra things that the Greens propose. There's a coal export levy; that would raise $21.7 billion over the next 10 years. There's cracking down on tax avoidance—that would raise $4½ billion over the decade. If we add all of these up, basically, we would have a budget with over $1 trillion—a thousand million dollars—over the next 10 years to make different choices. That's the direction to create a fairer society. To create a society where no-one is left behind, these are the sorts of choices that this government should be making.</para>
<para>The Labor government like to talk about how they don't want anyone to be left behind. I tell them: you are leaving plenty of people behind at the moment, and doing little things like adding to student debt by having these startup loans. Those aren't going to help much; we will still have so many people who are left behind. You can make different choices. It is possible to support people and to build a just and sustainable society—to build an Australia where everybody actually does get a fair go to achieve their potential. That's what we, the Greens, are calling on the government to do: to make different choices and to create that better Australia.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I now speak on the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023. This bill does three things. Schedule 1 creates an entirely new form of HECS called STARTUP-HELP, or Startup Year help. Schedule 2 increases the funding cap in the Australian Research Council Act. And schedule 3 adds Avondale University as a provider under the Higher Education Support Act.</para>
<para>Schedules 2 and 3 are relatively uncontroversial and should be passed before the next financial year. Deceptively, though, Labor has tied those time-sensitive measures with the controversial program in schedule 1 so that it can be whisked through. Deceit—yet another example of government deceit. Let's consider schedule 1. Let's cut through the deceit!</para>
<para>This bill started off with the announcement of an initial consultation paper and a student survey to seek the views of current students and recent graduates on the proposed design. It sounds like a great start, and yet the government has not published the outcomes of the survey and it has not published the submissions to the consultation paper it started. We only know about some submissions—in fact, only those submissions whose submitters published them themselves! Of these, many expressed concern about the lack of detail around four things: the criteria for inclusion of eligible programs; how students would be selected; how the allocation of 2,000 places would be distributed; and what the funding could be spent on. Those are pretty critical things and the government wants to hide them.</para>
<para>Given these concerns, it would make sense to have an initial pilot program. Many submissions appeared to agree with this and it was even suggested in the consultation paper. Yet, no, the government has decided that it won't do this, instead pushing straight ahead with the full implementation of an expensive and undefined, untested program, and the creation of an entirely new category of debt. The program doesn't make sense. As even the Australian Technology Network group of universities suggested, if you want to encourage startups, give the money directly to students, not to universities.</para>
<para>That was the government's election promise—to provide grants for startups. Instead we have this Startup Year program, where money will be going to universities. If someone has a startup idea, under this program the government won't give that person money to invest in their idea, to develop research, to produce prototypes or to get market research. Instead, the government will give money to universities, and the student will get left with a HECS debt afterwards. Reading about this program, readers might think that the intention isn't to actually support startup businesses. People might think the intention is to support universities with yet another new cash cow and to funnel extra money towards them through an entirely new type of debt.</para>
<para>Schedule 2 of the bill provides updated funding caps. The minister explained these new funding caps as innocent indexation adjustments. Looking at the table provided in the explanatory memorandum, we have to ask: what the hell is the basis for the indexation rate? It certainly doesn't seem to be the CPI, the consumer price index. For 2022-23, the increase is two per cent. For 2023-24, the increase is 4.8 per cent. That is 1½ times higher. For 2024-25, the increase is—wait for it—7.5 per cent. For 2025-26, the increase is 2.46 per cent.</para>
<para>If these increases were in line with CPI indexation, we would expect the larger indexation to apply in 2022-23—but no. Instead, the 7.46 per cent indexation won't come into effect until 2024-25 after two years of additional indexation has already been applied. So you're compounding the interest. Anyone familiar with how compound interest works will recognise that pushing the larger increase further down the line actually results in a larger increase to the funding. These increases amount to a significant additional 17 per cent or $137 million of taxpayer money going into the Australian Research Council's budget over the forward estimates. It's hard to consider these amounts as innocent indexation adjustments given their size and the deceptive way they've been applied. There's that word again; it shrouds this government—deceit.</para>
<para>I note that Senator Henderson intends to move amendments that in effect split the bill and set up a pilot program. Senator Henderson's amendments would carve out the Startup Year program from the funding and Avondale University matters which must be dealt with before July. They would establish a proper pilot program. This is appropriate. Let's deal with the time-sensitive matters now and then have a proper debate about this back-of-the-envelope idea from Labor for state sanctioned startups.</para>
<para>To properly encourage startups in this country, we need to fix the broken taxation system and make sure energy is as cheap as humanly possible. The government is crippling startups by making it difficult to start up. Shovelling money instead towards universities and building a HECS debt will do nothing to encourage business in this country. It's a transfer of wealth from students to universities. We won't let the Albanese government hold us to ransom, bundling up necessary amendments with radical programs. If not amended and if it remains dishonest and deceitful, One Nation will oppose this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank senators for their contributions to this debate. The Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill 2023 will support the development of the skills needed to drive the businesses and technologies of the future. It will extend up to 2,000 startup, income-contingent HELP loans each year to eligible students participating in higher education based accelerator programs. These programs under this new loan type will build skills in entrepreneurship and connect students with the support, mentorship and facilities that they need to develop their startup ideas. It will commence with a pilot program and then be rolled out to universities that are approved through an application process. The success of the free programs currently offered by universities, of which the opposition have spoken, proves the point that structured courses that confer a qualification are not only sensible but in demand.</para>
<para>Universities have been vocal in their support for this kind of structure around the development of entrepreneurial skills. That appears to have been lost on some of those opposite. Senator O'Sullivan read from the Universities Australia submission as part of the government's consultation process. He neglected to refer to the evidence given by Universities Australia at the Senate committee hearing on this bill after the input from the consultation had been actioned by the government. At that hearing Universities Australia said that it supports and applauds the government's initiative in the establishment of the startup year. Universities Australia described the consultation process with government as first class. When asked by Senator O'Sullivan as to whether there was a value proposition for students and universities, the response from Universities Australia was, 'Absolutely.'</para>
<para>In the same hearing the Australian Technology Network said, 'We fundamentally think this is a great program.' The University of Technology said in its submission to the inquiry that the bill will help the next generation of young Australian entrepreneurs bring their ideas to life, and that it commends the government for exploring innovative and long-term solutions to fund and support startups. And yet the opposition have flagged that they'll oppose this bill and have tried to remove the Startup Year program from it. They say their opposition is because of a lack of detail or some uncertainty about the program. The opposition have had the benefit of briefings, the Senate committee inquiry and even the provision of draft guidelines and the program handbook well ahead of schedule to assist in their understanding of the program.</para>
<para>I now table the draft guidelines and handbook, noting that they will be amended further following the passage of this bill. The opposition have chosen to ignore much of the evidence from the Senate committee hearing and report. To offer paltry amendments while also opposing the bill is 'no-alition' politics at its most basic. I encourage the opposition to support this initiative in upskilling our brightest young innovators. In response to a request from the Scrutiny of Bills Committee, I table an addendum to the exploratory memorandum as well.</para>
<para>The bill also amends the Higher Education Support Act to list Avondale University as a table B provider, following its recent registration as an Australian university by the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency. The bill also mends the Australian Research Council Act 2001 to apply current indexation to funding for the 2023-24 and 2024-25 financial years and insert a new funding cut for the 2025-26 financial year, resulting in an additional appropriation to the ARC of just over $1 billion. As I referred to, this bill was considered by the Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, which recommended passing the bill. In response to the dissenting recommendation by coalition senators, the Australian government is providing targeted cost-of-living relief that does not add to inflation, addressing supply-side problems and investing in future growth. We're making our nation's finances more sustainable. These include the government's energy package, legislation to reduce childcare costs and reductions to the costs of medicines on the PBS.</para>
<para>The government also intends to move an amendment in the committee stage which will align the Higher Education Support Act with the government's recently announced pathway to Australian citizenship for New Zealand citizens. The new pathway will allow eligible New Zealand citizens seeking Australian citizenship to access HELP loans whilst they do so. It fixes a long-existing gap in the HELP system where New Zealand students missed out on HELP loans for a portion of their Australian citizenship pathway. The amendment I will move is to ensure that eligible New Zealand citizens on the existing pathway to Australian citizenship will be treated the same as those embarking on the government's new pathway. As a matter of fairness, it will allow them to access HELP loans in the same way. This is a modest but important amendment, and one which deserves the support of the chamber.</para>
<para>The measures in this bill deliver on our election commitment and further the government's dedication to supporting our higher education sector. I commend the bill to the chamber.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have moved a second reading amendment on sheet 1938. The government has just tabled the guidelines. I take it in good faith that the guidelines have been tabled. I have to say I am very disappointed—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, you don't have the call to debate that, but if the document that's been tabled has changed your position on the amendment then it would assist the chamber to indicate that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I haven't sighted the document, but assuming the guidelines have been tabled then the opposition will withdraw the amendment. I seek leave to withdraw my amendment.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the Greens' amendment on sheet 1948:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate notes that this bill does nothing to mitigate the student debt crisis at a time when student debts are increasing at an out-of-control pace, and calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) recognise that education is a public good which should be free and universal;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) make university and TAFE fee-free; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) wipe all student debt".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the amendment moved by Senator Faruqi on sheet 1948 be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:05]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Fawcett.)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>11</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.<br />Original question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>79</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move government amendments (1) and (2) on sheet PF120 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the House of Representatives be requested to make the following amendments:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 2 (table), omit the table, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Page 40 (after line 13), at the end of the Bill, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 4 — HELP assistance for New Zealand citizens who are permanent residents</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 Paragraph 90-5(2A)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) holds a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is a *permanent visa holder who, immediately before becoming a permanent visa holder, held a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 Paragraph 104-5(2A)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) holds a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is a *permanent visa holder who, immediately before becoming a permanent visa holder, held a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Paragraph 118-5(2)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) holds a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is a *permanent visa holder who, immediately before becoming a permanent visa holder, held a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 Paragraph 126-5(1A)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) on the day the fee is payable, either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) holds a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is a *permanent visa holder who, immediately before becoming a permanent visa holder, held a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 Paragraph 128B-30(3)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) holds a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is a *permanent visa holder who, immediately before becoming a permanent visa holder, held a special category visa under the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The amendment of section 90-5 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> made by this Schedule applies in relation to determining entitlement to HECS-HELP assistance for units of study with a census date that is on or after the day this Schedule commences.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The amendment of section 104-5 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> made by this Schedule applies in relation to determining entitlement to FEE-HELP assistance for units of study with a census date that is on or after the day this Schedule commences.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The amendment of section 118-5 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> made by this Schedule applies in relation to applications for receipt of OS-HELP assistance that are made on or after the day this Schedule commences.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The amendment of section 126-5 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> made by this Schedule applies in relation to requests for Commonwealth assistance in relation to a student services and amenities fee that are made on or after the day this Schedule commences.</para></quote>
<para>______</para>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Statement of reasons: why certain amendments should be moved as requests</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Section 53 of the Constitution is as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Powers of the Houses in respect of legislation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">53. Proposed laws appropriating revenue or moneys, or imposing taxation, shall not originate in the Senate. But a proposed law shall not be taken to appropriate revenue or moneys, or to impose taxation, by reason only of its containing provisions for the imposition or appropriation of fines or other pecuniary penalties, or for the demand or payment or appropriation of fees for licences, or fees for services under the proposed law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Senate may not amend proposed laws imposing taxation, or proposed laws appropriating revenue or moneys for the ordinary annual services of the Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Senate may not amend any proposed law so as to increase any proposed charge or burden on the people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Senate may at any stage return to the House of Representatives any proposed law which the Senate may not amend, requesting, by message, the omission or amendment of any items or provisions therein. And the House of Representatives may, if it thinks fit, make any of such omissions or amendments, with or without modifications.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Except as provided in this section, the Senate shall have equal power with the House of Representatives in respect of all proposed laws.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Amendment (2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The effect of this amendment is to expand the circumstances in which certain New Zealand citizens are eligible for assistance under the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is covered by section 53 because this expansion of eligibility will increase the amount of expenditure out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund under the standing appropriation in section 238-12 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is also covered by section 53 because the expansion of eligibility for assistance under the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> has the effect of expanding eligibility for certain student payments under the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security Act 1</inline>991. This will increase the amount of expenditure out of the Consolidated Revenue Fund under the standing appropriation in section 242 of the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security (Administration) Act 1999</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consequential amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The following amendment(s) are consequential on the amendments mentioned above:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Amendment (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Statement by the</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> Clerk of the Senate pursuant</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">to the order of the Senate of 26 June 2000</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Amendment (2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If the effect of the amendment is to increase the amount of expenditure under the standing appropriations in section 238-12 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline> and section 242 of the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security (Administration) Act 1999</inline>, then it is in accordance with the precedents of the Senate that the amendment be moved as a request.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Amendment (1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This amendment is consequential on the request. It is the practice of the Senate that an amendment that is consequential on an amendment framed as a request may also be framed as a request.</para></quote>
<para>I table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to the government requests for amendments to this bill. These amendments align the Higher Education Support Act with the government's pathway to Australian citizenship for New Zealand citizens. They fix a long-existing gap in the HELP system where New Zealand students miss out on HELP loans for a portion of their Australian citizenship pathway. They ensure that students who are already on the pathway are treated the same as those embarking on the government's new pathway. They permit them access to the HELP system. It's a matter of fairness. My understanding is that they have the opposition's support. It is a modest fix, but one which is very important to those it helps.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition will be supporting these amendments. I want to check with the minister and ask the minister a couple of questions in relation to this. We had a briefing in relation to the number of New Zealand citizens who would be impacted by these amendments being an interim measure. Could the government please confirm the number of people who would have missed out otherwise accessing HECS and now, by reason of these amendments, will be able to access HECS or continue with their course accessing HECS? We were advised it was about 50 or so people. If you could you confirm the exact number, that would be much appreciated.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't have a precise figure, but my understanding is that it is around that 50 number, Senator Henderson.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you able to confirm that these amendments relate only to New Zealand citizens who are on a special category visa and have applied for PR, permanent residency, and by reason of their application are no longer able to access HECS, and that these amendments will resolve that particular situation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, that's my understanding.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We will be supporting these amendments as well.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move opposition amendment (1) on sheet 1936:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 3 (line 1) to page 38 (line 15), to be opposed.</para></quote>
<para>I have moved this amendment to effectively separate the Startup Year provisions from the rest of the bill. As I've indicated, the opposition supports other measures in the bill—being, the provision in relation to the increase to the Australian Research Council and the classification of Avondale University—and of course the amendments we just passed.</para>
<para>I profoundly disagree with the minister's characterisation of the Startup Year provisions in this bill. The Startup Year provisions, as I discussed earlier in this debate, present a very high risk to students. This scheme is meant to start in a couple of weeks. It is such a mess that the guidelines have only just been tabled. The universities are very concerned that they weren't able to consult on the guidelines which underpin how this scheme will operate. The principal concern the opposition has is that it subjects students to such high risk—a full-fee-paying course and a debt of up to $23,600, which will go up each and every year because it's indexed. This will expose students to enormous risk.</para>
<para>What is so nonsensical about this situation is that this is a solution in terms of a problem. We are strongly supportive of accelerator and incubator courses. We have led the way and championed the need for student entrepreneurs to be supported. There are, as I mentioned earlier, more than 100 accelerator courses available through universities around this country. But while the universities have mooted their support in the Senate inquiry, after being scathing in the earlier consultation, and while this looks and sounds like a good idea in principle, the fact of the matter is that the government is asking students to pay through the nose for courses they can currently do for nothing.</para>
<para>These are courses that are delivering. I mentioned earlier visiting the UTS Startup Hub, as one example. The UTS Startup Hub has more than 800 students enrolled. Last year alone they created, through businesses developed through the Startup Hub, some 570 jobs. These accelerator and incubator courses are available all across the country and the universities are doing a great job. Regrettably, the government has not made out the case to impose this very significant debt. These are not even Commonwealth supported places; these are full fee-paying courses. The government has not made out the case as to why it would impose such a significant debt on students for doing courses that they can currently do for free. The value proposition is not there and the benefits are just not discernible.</para>
<para>While I appreciate that the universities would love more HECS revenue, the universities have not been able to explain what courses would be offered, because they don't know. That's why we've also put forward a number of amendments to protect students. I'm deeply concerned about this when looking at the huge acceleration in HECS debt and at how Labor's cost-of-living crisis has driven up indexation to the highest indexation rate in more than 30 years: 7.1 per cent. That means an average increase in an Australian student loan of some $1,700 in a year. The government has not made the case as to why it would support student entrepreneurs by slamming them with this horrendous additional debt. That's why we're seeking to split the bill; to support the other measures in the bill and to oppose the startup provisions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will oppose this amendment as it would have the effect of removing the Startup Year program from the bill. Although opposing startup, the amendments that the opposition offer in alternative are of a major nature and do not substantially change the program from what the government is proposing. The opposition have had the benefit of briefings, a Senate committee inquiry and even the provision of draft guidelines and the program handbook, as well as a schedule to assist in understanding the program. They've now offered paltry amendments and also opposed the bill, which is 'no-alition' politics at its finest.</para>
<para>In terms of the lack of support, I would disagree with that. I think this bill has been met with enthusiastic support from the sector. The consultation process was lauded by key stakeholders, and described as first class by Universities Australia. The Senate committee hearing emphasised this, as Universities Australia said that it supports and applauds the government's initiative in the establishment of the Startup Year. It also said that it was absolutely a value proposition for students in universities. The Australian Technology Network said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We fundamentally think this is a great program.</para></quote>
<para>And the University of Technology said in its submission to the inquiry that the bill would:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… help the next generation of young Australian entrepreneurs bring their ideas to life and commends the Government for exploring innovative and long-term solutions to fund and support new startups.</para></quote>
<para>The government is confident these measure also be well received and will operate well, and we've committed to a pilot to ensure that that's the case.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens will not be supporting coalition amendments on sheet 1936. We do, in principle, support the establishment of the Startup Year program. What convinced me was that, throughout the Senate inquiry on the Education Legislation Amendment (Startup Year and Other Measures) Bill held in April this year, we heard broad support from stakeholders and universities for the program. I have not heard from one single stakeholder of mine asking me to oppose the Startup Year program. Of course, there is a big issue with how the student loan system operates at the moment. The Greens' views on that system are well known. It is a broken system, and it needs to be overhauled. That's why I moved the second reading amendment a few minutes ago to wipe student debt and to make university and TAFE free. But the coalition voted against that. If the coalition is genuine about wanting to do something about indexation, there is an opportunity coming up in the next half hour where we have amendments to scrap indexation. If the coalition really cares about it that much, it should vote for the amendments.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that schedule 1 stand as printed.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [18:25] <br />(The Chair—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I alert senators, too, that once we hit 6.30 pm there'll be no more divisions, but we can proceed in committee stage. We can consider the amendments in committee stage and defer all the divisions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—For the benefit of senators, I advise that a revised amendment, item (2) on sheet 1965, has just been circulated. I move revised amendments (2) and (3) on sheet 1937, revised 2, together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 25, page 14 (after line 23), at the end of section 128B-25, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Without limiting the matters that may be included in the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines made for the purposes of paragraph (2)(c), those guidelines must require that the higher education provider providing the *accelerator program course has arrangements in place to ensure that, in circumstances where a student creates intellectual property through undertaking the course, the student owns the intellectual property unless there is an agreement that provides otherwise in place between the student and the provider.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 25, page 16 (after line 28), at the end of Division 128B, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">128B-40 Allocation of STARTUP-HELP assistance</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The STARTUP-HELP Guidelines must include principles and procedures for ensuring, so far as reasonably practicable, that at least 25% of the persons selected for receipt of *STARTUP-HELP assistance are students enrolled in an *accelerator program course at a regional university.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) For the purposes of subsection (1), a <inline font-style="italic">regional university</inline> is one of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Charles Sturt University;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Central Queensland University;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Federation University Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) Southern Cross University;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) University of New England;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) University of Southern Queensland;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) University of the Sunshine Coast;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) any other university, or particular campus of a university, specified in the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The Minister must not specify a university, or particular campus of a university, in the START-UP HELP Guidelines made for the purposes of paragraph (2)(h), unless the university or campus is located in a Remoteness Area categorised under the *ABS Remoteness Structure as Inner Regional Australia, Outer Regional Australia, Remote Australia or Very Remote Australia.</para></quote>
<para>Regarding the rationale for moving items (2) and (3) together, item (2) on sheet 1937 relates to the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines requiring that the intellectual property rights of students be protected. Whatever is in or out of the guidelines—and we haven't had an opportunity to even read them because they've just been tabled and we don't know whether they're any different to the guidelines we received last week—the opposition is profoundly concerned that the bill does not include a provision which protects students' intellectual property. If students are going to do an accelerator or incubator course and they've got great ideas, they've got great innovations, they want to start a new business, it's very important that students know that their ideas are protected. So we think this is a very important amendment to make sure—standing up for students first—that their intellectual property is protected.</para>
<para>Item (3) also addresses another defect in the bill, and that relates to regional students doing an accelerator course at a regional university. I do respectfully disagree with Senator Faruqi, as she characterised the feedback and submissions we'd received in the Senate inquiry. There was deep concern expressed by a number of the regional universities that if a regional university did not have an existing accelerator course it was going to be very difficult under the current structure, given the funding model, to develop an accelerator course. We want to make sure that regional students and regional universities get every possible opportunity. So this amendment makes it clear that, as far as reasonably practical, at least 25 per cent of the persons selected for receipt of a startup HELP assistance are students enrolled in an accelerator program course at a regional university.</para>
<para>Too often, we've seen the government not properly consider the needs of regional Australia. Too often, we have been concerned that sometimes, in many different ways, the needs of people living in regional Australia— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired) </inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, I'm not clear why your time would have expired, other than to say that we are moving on to say no divisions, so please continue. We will reset the clock now.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much, Chair. As I was saying, this is a very important provision to support regional students. I have been very concerned, as the shadow minister for education, travelling around the country as I have been, that regional universities have not been given due consideration in the many challenges they face.</para>
<para>I met with James Cook University very recently and they are in a situation where, of the 20,000 new HECS places that have been announced, Commonwealth supported places, they're not able to use them all. They don't have the appropriate flexibility, in relation to how they can use that funding that's been provided by the government. They are very keen to utilise that funding in a different way by providing more enabling courses so that more students or potential students living in northern Queensland can access their university and go on to complete a course and to live and work armed with great knowledge from a university in northern Queensland.</para>
<para>I hope and trust that these two provisions will receive support across the chamber. We have been consulting widely, and I would commend both of these items, on page 1937, to the Senate.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just for clarity, Senator Henderson, the guidelines that I tabled are the same as you received last week. They haven't changed since then.</para>
<para>In relation to items (2) and (3) on sheet 1937, the government will be supporting these amendments. The draft guidelines circulated already address IP ownership, as flagged in the draft guidelines, and the government has been clear from the beginning that the startup year will focus on getting underrepresented groups into the entrepreneurial ecosystem, specifically including programs that focus on solving regional issues through innovation. So the government will support the amendment, noting that essentially supports the position taken by government to date.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to clarify that Senator Henderson has moved amendments (2) and (3) on sheet 1937. Am I right?</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Yes, it's (2) and (3) only.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens will be supporting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to clarify, it's 1937 revised 2.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will support these amendments because amendment (2) requires higher education providers to ensure students own their intellectual property and amendment (3) requires ensuring that at least 25 per cent of students selected for STARTUP-HELP loans are enrolled in a regional university. The Greens do support these measures that support regional students, in making sure that they do not miss out on the educational outcomes of the program.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question before the chair, and the chamber, is that amendments (2) and (3) on sheet 1937, as revised, be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I now move opposition amendments (4) and (5) on sheet 1937 revised 2 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 25, page 22 (after line 25), at the end of Subdivision 128E-B, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">128E-40 Reversal of STARTUP-HELP assistance: accelerator program course objectives not met</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) An amount of *STARTUP-HELP assistance that a person received for an *accelerator program course with a higher education provider is <inline font-style="italic">reversed</inline> if the *Secretary is satisfied that the course has not met its stated objectives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 1: For example, a course may not have met its stated objectives if the course has not developed a person's skills, capabilities and connections for the purposes of startup businesses: see paragraph 128B-25(1)(a).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 2: For the consequences if an amount of assistance is reversed, see sections 128D-5, 128D-10 and 137-17. See also paragraph 128B-1(1)(c).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Without limiting the matters that may be included in the STARTUP-HELP guidelines, those guidelines must set out:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) principles and procedures that the *Secretary must follow in deciding whether the stated objectives of an *accelerator program course have been met; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) procedures for a person who is, or has been, enrolled in an *accelerator program course to make an application to the *Secretary for an amount of *STARTUP-HELP assistance to be reversed under subsection (1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 73, page 34 (line 5), at the end of the definition of <inline font-style="italic">reversed</inline> in subclause 1(1) of Schedule 1, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; (f) section 128E-40 (accelerator program course objectives not met).</para></quote>
<para>This relates to the really important issue of ensuring that, if an accelerator course does not stack up and if an accelerator course does not—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Senator Henderson, I'm just going to interrupt you before you speak to your amendments to make sure that leave is granted for you to move them together, which I presume it will be. Leave is granted. Please continue.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Amendments (4) and (5) on sheet 1937 concern the ability of students to access a refund. We think this is critically important. So this provision provides that the debt for an accelerator program course with a higher education provider can be reversed if the secretary is satisfied that the course has not met its stated objectives. We propose these particular amendments because there is such high risk involved with these accelerator courses because they are full-fee-paying courses.</para>
<para>As I mentioned earlier in this debate, the universities are doing a first-class job at delivering a very broad range of courses—accelerator courses, activator courses, incubator courses, co-working spaces and mentoring programs—which are mostly delivered at no cost to the student. So, if this scheme is going to be rolled out, we want to make sure that the universities are held to account.</para>
<para>I will say that we have had some discussions with the government in relation to this particular amendment, and, from our discussions, I am concerned about any suggestion that this should be discretionary. Of course, this is very much in the hands of the secretary of the department, so we want to make sure that, if a student is charged $11,800 for a course, an enormous amount of money which, of course, will be indexed—and then who knows? With the way things are going, it could end up being a $20,000 debt for the student. We want to make sure that, if that course is not fit for purpose and doesn't meet its objectives, the student has an important opportunity to seek to obtain a refund.</para>
<para>This will be safeguarded by the Secretary of the Department of Education. We recognise that, in determining the merits of a refund, there need to be proper principles in place, so that is why, in clause (2) under amendment (4), we are proposing that the guidelines must set out the principles and procedures that the secretary must follow in deciding whether the stated objectives of an accelerator program course have been met and that there are procedures for a person who is or has been enrolled in an accelerator program course to make an application to the secretary for an amount of STARTUP-HELP assistance to be reversed.</para>
<para>We very much hope that this provision is not needed by any student. Assuming that any university does go ahead and deliver a Startup Year course, we very much hope that these courses are of the highest quality and that the universities will work exceptionally hard to make sure that they deliver real value for money. But, as we know, through the consultation process and the concerns that continue to be raised by a number of universities, the value to students is very much at issue. Despite the rhetoric from the government and despite the universities indicating they support the Startup Year program in principle, so far we have seen no evidence that these courses are going to deliver value, and therefore we want to make sure that the universities are held to account for the way in which these programs are delivered.</para>
<para>This is a really important safeguard. This is about putting students first. Frankly, as I mentioned, we very much hope that students don't need this recourse and don't have to go through the rigmarole of applying for a refund and needing the secretary to make the appropriate assessment in relation to a course. But this is a safeguard of last resort, and it's very, very important, when students are facing cost-of-living pressures as they are, remembering, of course, that most students who will embark on a Startup Year course, if any do—and, as I said in my speech in the second reading debate, currently I don't think there is any merit in any student doing a Startup Year course and incurring such enormous debt with such little discernible value. Perhaps the universities will deliver some courses that present that value, but, if they do, we want to make sure that students are protected. I really hope and trust that we can attract the support of the Senate in adopting this particular amendment. As I said, this is a recourse of last resort. This demonstrates the opposition's concern for the cost-of-living crisis that so many students are facing.</para>
<para>This also reflects our deep concern about the enormous acceleration in student debt—another 7.1 per cent increase in student debt from 1 June. We expect there'll be another very significant increase next year—at least three per cent, maybe four per cent. All in all, under Labor, more than three million Australians with a student debt are looking at an increase in their student debt, by reason of the indexation which applies, of some 15 per cent. In the last decade, principally under the coalition, the average indexation rate was two per cent. It was moderate, it reflected a strong bipartisanship that we've always had for the HECS-HELP scheme and it was fair. But this is not fair. When you couple this with the fact that the HECS payment system is antiquated and needs urgent reform—particularly when students are paying down their debt, those repayments are not being realised in real time and students are being indexed on the higher rate from 1 July, the beginning of the financial year—then we think this is really, really important.</para>
<para>I hope, Minister, that you might support this. This will demonstrate that the government does care about student debt. Your support, Minister, for this provision would demonstrate that the government is putting the needs of students first, with respect to those who do a Startup Year course that doesn't measure up. We hope and trust that this particular amendment does attract the support of the Senate.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry to let you down, Senator Henderson, but we will not be supporting this amendment. It will be opposed in its current form as it does not fit with the rest of the Higher Education Support Act and would introduce review mechanisms which would conflict with existing measures and create uncertainty across the HECS-HELP system. There are existing mechanisms in higher education legislation which address noncompliant delivery of courses by providers. These are sufficient to cover Startup Year. In addition, the working group and then the pilot program will be closely assessing and monitoring the quality of courses to be approved and offered, and we believe that is an appropriate pathway forward.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a number of questions in relation to the minister's position on amendments (4) and (5). Minister, I am deeply concerned that the government is not supporting these provisions, which give students the right to secure a refund. I'm deeply concerned that the government doesn't see the merit. I appreciate that there are existing measures in relation to these matters, but, insofar as what's been presented to me from the government, they are discretionary. In our discussions in relation to this particular provision, what was put forward to me would not give students an inherent right to secure a refund. In fact, this provides that the STARTUP-HELP guidelines must include the provisions to secure a startup refund. Could you explain to me, Minister, why it is that you don't believe universities should be held to account to ensure that they deliver the best quality courses?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We do believe that they should be held to account. But, as I mentioned, we believe that there are sufficient existing mechanisms in place to ensure that higher education providers do the right thing and that we address the noncompliant delivery of courses by them. We believe that that will also be in place to cover the Startup Year. In addition, we've also said that the working group and then the pilot program will be closely assessing and monitoring the quality of courses to be approved and offered. We think we've got the appropriate mechanisms in place through both existing structures and then what we're proposing around the working group to ensure that we have this important issue covered.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you've mentioned the working group. Could you explain how the working group will operate and how that will hold the universities to account in relation to the courses which are delivered?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that it is in the guidelines and it will be government, business and universities working together. We think that's an appropriate way for this to be dealt with.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That sounds very vague, Minister. I don't quite know what you mean by that. How will the working group ensure that universities are going to provide courses of the quality which justifies the government imposing a full fee of $11,600 for one simple course that currently students can do for nothing? Where is the protection for students? You've not given me any satisfaction at all. If you're saying that there are alternative ways in which a student can obtain a refund if a course doesn't measure up, can you please explain what they are?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is from the draft guidelines of pilot 13:</para>
<quote><para class="block">13. The Department of Education (the Department) will appoint a Startup Year Working Group, comprisedofrepresentativesfromtheuniversity, business,andgovernment sectors,to monitor theimplementationandoperation of Startup Year duringthe pilot.The Working GroupwillprovideadvicetotheDepartmentofEducation ontheStartupYearprogram settings andanyother mattersaffectingprogram outcomes andobjectives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14. TheDepartment willalsoworkclosely withparticipatinguniversities to understand implementationchallenges,thestudentexperience,andareasforfutureimprovement.The DepartmentmaycallonparticipatinguniversitiestoprovideinformationtotheStartupYear WorkingGroup,including details of participant diversity, course attrition/completionrates, participant destination andoutcomesinformation andcourseevaluations.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>With respect, you didn't answer my question. I asked if there are alternative ways in which students' concerns can be heard. How then can students get a refund if they do a course which is a joke? If they've paid $11,600, what do they do then? If you're suggesting to me there are other ways in which students can be safeguarded, could you please explain what they are? Because, so far, you haven't.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding of the way the process works is that students are able to start a complaints progress through the university that they're enrolled at, and then other mechanisms can flow from that, but that is the starting point for students if they wish to raise a complaint.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that students can raise a complaint, but how does that ensure that students will get a refund if their complaint has merit?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Ultimately, either the ombudsman or TEQSA would be responsible for making a determination on how that is dealt with.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have to say that sounds totally inadequate. What you're proposing is that students will need to go through a horrendous bureaucratic nightmare to get justice if a university rolls out an accelerator course which doesn't measure up. I am very disappointed that the government has not seen merit in this particular amendment. Based on what you have said, I have no sense of satisfaction at all that students will be able to get a refund. Could you just confirm to me the period of time it would take if a course is defective, doesn't meet its objectives or hasn't delivered for a student to make a complaint, to go through TEQSA, to have the university audit it and to examine the merits of the complaint? Does the student have an inherent right to access a refund?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't have a time line in front of me as to how long it would take. But the point is that this currently applies to students in universities now. So it is the same process for a student enrolled now, in terms of the process they would have to go through. If they were unhappy or if they were seeking some sort of recompense, the same as it is for a student now would apply to the Startup Year program.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that amendments (4) and (5), as on sheet 1937, revised, be agreed to. A division has been called but I understand that divisions are deferred, so that will take place tomorrow. Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move opposition amendment (1) on sheet 1937, revised 2:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 2 (cell at table item 1, column 2), omit the cell, substitute:</para></quote>
<para>This provides that the bill effectively proceed the day after this act receives royal assent and the day after a copy of the proposed STARTUP-HELP guidelines have been tabled in the Senate. I appreciate that the guidelines have now been tabled in the Senate, but I would still like to put that to the Senate please.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that—Minister?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to get some clarity on what number that was.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: No. (1) on sheet 1937, revised 2.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Didn't we just vote on (1), (4) and (5)?</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: No, that was on (4) and (5) only.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to indicate to the Senate that the government will be opposing this amendment.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that item (1) on sheet 1937, revised 2, be agreed to. We will defer the division on that until tomorrow.</para>
<para>Senator Henderson, you have one further amendment on sheet 1965. Is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do, Chair. I move amendment (1) on sheet 1965, revised, which has been recently circulated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 25, page 9 (after line 17), after Division 128A, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Division 128AA — Accelerator program course pilot</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">128AA-1 Accelerator program course pilot</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Minister must cause an *accelerator program course pilot to be conducted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Without limiting the matters that may be included in the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines, those guidelines must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) nominate at least one, but no more than 2, higher education providers to conduct the pilot (the <inline font-style="italic">nom</inline><inline font-style="italic">inated higher education providers</inline>); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) prescribe requirements in relation to the conduct of the pilot; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) provide for an independent review of the pilot; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) prescribe requirements in relation to the conduct of the independent review; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) provide that a report of the independent review be tabled in each House of the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A higher education provider (other than the nominated higher education providers) must not enrol a person in an *accelerator program course until the pilot is completed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The pilot must be completed no later than 2 years after the commencement of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) For the purposes of subsections (3) and (4), the pilot is completed when the report of the independent review of the pilot is tabled in each House of the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) For the purposes of entitlement to STARTUP-HELP assistance under subsection 128B-1(1), the pilot is an *accelerator program course.</para></quote>
<para>This is a very important proposal to provide that, before the Startup Year program is rolled out in full, the universities or the government require the universities to conduct a pilot. In the initial consultation, one of the deep concerns of the universities was, 'We can't see the value proposition, we can't see what discernible benefit this provides to students, we are deeply concerned, and we suggest that a pilot be rolled out first.' The government says that it took into account the scathing criticism that it received in the consultation process. In fact, it was so scathing that the government did everything it could to keep the submissions to the consultation secret, and the opposition needed to secure an order in the Senate to have those submissions made public, as I mentioned in my second reading speech.</para>
<para>One of the principal concerns of the university sector was that they need to understand the efficacy of this Startup Year program, how it will work, how they can assess it. This amendment provides that three higher education providers will conduct a pilot, there will be prescribed requirements in relation it to, there will be an independent review of the pilot and that independent review will produce a report to be tabled in each house of the parliament. This would ensure that there is appropriate accountability and transparency. While the amendment requires that the pilot must be completed no later than two years after the commencement of this section, the bottom line is that the universities are simply not ready to deliver any of these courses. I'm laughing because I'm watching one of the minister's advisers laughing. I probably shouldn't make that comment; I accept that.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Let's move on before a point of order is required.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I accept that I should not be reflecting on advisers. The bottom line is, as the universities have indicated to me, they're not ready because this so-called Startup Year program starts in under two weeks. We don't have the course, we don't have a proposal, nothing has been designed. The guidelines have just been tabled today. The university sector has been blind as to how this program will work, and it will take, based on the advice I've received, a very significant amount of time to design the courses, to promote them and to market them. This could take some 18 months, so this is a responsible and appropriate response to a ham-fisted scheme which will at least ensure that the efficacy of the Startup Year program and this loan scheme can be properly piloted.</para>
<para>The government is proposing to roll out one thousand places. That is not a proper pilot. Just delivering half of the program now is not a proper pilot. We want to make sure that a proper pilot is delivered that will ensure that the welfare and the rights of students are first and foremost. This is about protecting students. I have to say that we went about this with a lot of good faith. We did not oppose this bill in the House. We did seek to pass a second reading amendment, which was very critical of aspects of the bill. But we went about this with a lot of good faith because we recognise that startup courses, accelerator courses and incubators are key to so many young Australians getting ahead and getting the mentoring and guidance they need to start their first business, to come up with a great idea, to develop it, to grow a business and to employ others in their business. As I mentioned earlier, the UTS Startups hub has developed businesses that have a total value of more than $500 million. These courses are incredibly important. If the government, with this crazy idea, now wants to start charging for courses that currently students can do for nothing, then the government should be held to account and this scheme should be properly tested.</para>
<para>So I commend this amendment to the Senate. It also provides that, in relation to designing a pilot, the minister should consult with key stakeholders and peak representative bodies from the higher education sector, as well as organisations currently running accelerator programs. We want the government to work with industry, with those running accelerator programs and with higher education providers to make sure that we have a proper pilot that can be tested on agreed criteria and then properly reviewed with the appropriate accountability back to the parliament.</para>
<para>This will be a very positive measure for students, and, frankly, it could save the government from itself. I'm absolutely certain that a properly run pilot would identify a range of risks and a range of gaps in this program which will give the parliament the opportunity to improve. So I do commend this amendment to the Senate. The opposition is very proud to be standing up for students and putting their needs, their welfare and their best interests at heart first and foremost.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We appreciate Senator Henderson's concerns for the government's welfare. It's much appreciated, Senator Henderson, but the government will be opposing this amendment. We have already stated the startup year will commence with a 12-month pilot program. The opposition amendment seeks to artificially limit the pilot to three universities. In our view, this will restrict the effectiveness of the pilot and runs contrary to the opposition's earlier amendment that regions must be included in this program.</para>
<para>The draft guidelines make it clear that a working group will be convened, as recommended in the consultation process, to advise on the pilot program and their work together with the departments. This should not be artificially limited by the opposition's amendment. And the government will oppose it.</para>
<para>Just on some other clarity that Senator Henderson might find helpful, it is the view of the government that universities will be able to apply to conduct courses in the second half of this year. We would then imagine students starting in February next year. That would be the time line that we'd be working towards.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I'm very disappointed for a start, but, secondly, can you please provide me with details as to which university advised you that it will be ready to start an accelerated course from February next year? Because that is not consistent with the advice I have received.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We'll be working on that with universities over the next couple of months if we can pass this legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you didn't address my question. You made a specific statement that some universities will be seeking to apply for startup year places in the coming months and will be ready to start their courses in February of next year. That is not consistent with the advice I've received. You may have more information. Could you please advise me specifically which universities have indicated that they will be ready to launch a startup year program or a course by February 2024?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not what I said, Senator Henderson. What I said was: universities would be able to apply for courses in the second half of this year, and then we envisage students being able to start in February next year.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you didn't use those words. Your representation was that universities would be starting courses—or some universities would be ready to start courses in February of next year. And I put it to you that they won't be ready to start in February of next year. They've only just seen the guidelines tabled in the Senate today—these are the guidelines which underpin how this startup year program will run—so they've got absolutely no idea how the government proposes to run the startup year courses, because they've only just learnt of those today. So I would welcome any further advice that you have, because Universities Australia, for one, has indicated to me that this is not something that universities can just quickly turn around and get up and running quickly.</para>
<para>You've indicated that this will be a 12-month pilot program of up to 1,000 places. Will this pilot program be concluded within 12 months, Minister?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, that's my understanding.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On what basis do you make that representation to the Senate, as to a pilot program? So what you're putting to me, Minister, is that, in 12 months, the universities are going to apply for places, promote a course of up to 1,000 places, market the course in the coming months, have the course ready to go from February of next year—up to 1,000 places—and then complete the pilot by mid next year, which is the end of semester 1. On what basis do you give that assurance to the Senate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That is what the government is working towards. Obviously, the 12-month pilot program would start from when students start, which we are anticipating will be in February next year, and that would be when we see the 12-month pilot program working from.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, could I ask which universities have indicated that they are very keen to run a pilot program? Which will be applying for places? And do you have any confidence that 1,000 places will be rolled out by the middle of next year?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that, at the hearings that were held as part of the inquiry process, QUT, CQU, University of Queensland and CSU indicated that they would be able to start a program within 10 weeks—that's the evidence they gave before the Senate inquiry.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, thank you. Is that still the case? So you're suggesting that they will be up and running with their course design and proposal within 10 weeks?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's the answer that those universities provided. Obviously, the time line that I talked you through earlier, Senator Henderson, was that our view would be that we'd be aiming to have students enrolled from February next year.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what evidence do you have that one student in this country is going to enrol in a course? What concrete evidence do you have that any student would line up to do a course such as this when there are currently 120 accelerator and incubator courses? They are on the Universities Australia website for anyone who wants to have a look. Students can do one of a huge range of courses at principally no cost or at very little cost. What evidence do you have that any students at all will sign up to do one of these courses?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOL</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>M (—) (): We know that those courses have been successful, and we think that's fantastic, but it also shows that there is demand for these courses. That is why we took this policy to the election. It was one that was endorsed by the Australian people. We are obviously quite excited about it. I think it is something that the country has fallen behind on. We think that this is going to be a good incentive to get people who do have a vision for themselves being an innovator to make use of these courses. We think that there is strong demand in the community. Obviously that's the work that will be undertaken by the department and the working group if we are able to pass this legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, where is your evidence that there is strong demand for students to sign up to and spend $11,600 on courses they can do for nothing? What student in their right mind would take on that sort of debt when currently we have no evidence at all that these courses are going to be any better than the ones currently on offer? You talk about incentives; this is a perverse disincentive. Why would a student sign up? It would have to be something incredible to justify a student paying this sort of money. This is a perverse disincentive to do a Startup Year accelerator course, because the government didn't even have the decency to provide these places with Commonwealth subsidy. The government were so committed to this scheme that they thought they would hit students with a full-fee-paying debt. So I again return to my question: where is the evidence that any student would sign up? Do you have any testimonials from any student group—or anyone at all—who said, 'Minister and Prime Minister, we want to sign up and do a course and pay $11,600, $11,800 or even $23,600, if we do two courses; we want to take that debt on rather than do a course for no cost'?</para>
<para>This is why this is such a hairbrained scheme. If the accelerator courses being offered by the universities were not working, if there weren't accelerator courses, if the universities weren't investing, I could understand it. But the fact of the matter is the university sector sees great value in delivering this incredible wide range of courses, and they are, right across this country. As I say, you have presented no evidence at all that any student is going to be unwise enough to take on this level of debt to do a course they can currently do for nothing. I would again invite you to provide the Senate with evidence that students are going to sign up to this course.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am aware that the department has conducted staff surveys which have indicated that there is strong interest from students in doing an accelerator program. I think it was something like 55 per cent of students who indicated they were interested. Then there is also the feedback from universities. I've talked about this repeatedly. Universities Australia said it supports and applauds the government's initiative for the establishment of a startup year. They also said it was absolutely a value proposition for students in universities. So I think that's a good indication of where the sector sits. Again, the Australian Technology Network said, 'We fundamentally think this is a great program,' and the University of Technology Sydney said in its submission to the inquiry that the bill will 'help the next generation of young Australian entrepreneurs bring their ideas to life' and that it 'commends the government for exploring innovative and long-term solutions to fund and support new startups'.</para>
<para>So there is plenty of evidence that students are interested in this. You only have to attend a university campus and talk to students to hear about the interesting things they're doing but also how optimistic they are about the future and the role they can play in the future. We think this bill will play an important part in that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I think you've forgotten to inform the Senate that the Australian Technology Network initially took the view that, if the government were going to provide any funding for student entrepreneurs, that money should go to the students by way of capital to support the students in their various enterprises. Yes, there was a bit of a backflip in the Senate inquiry; I do agree with that. But I also am concerned that the university sector are seeking to appease the government. Perhaps they see a bucket of money coming their way as part of the Universities Accord process. I think they'll be sadly disappointed. But I think the initial consultation that we saw indicated the enormous breadth of concern from the university sector.</para>
<para>I just want to take you to the student survey, because I'm not quite sure that you're across the details of the survey, Minister. Unfortunately, we weren't able to access all of the data, because the government refused to provide that. But, in the data that the government has provided, 55 per cent of students surveyed—and we're looking at 530 students, which is only a very small handful, in three focus groups—have an interest in joining a startup; 83 per cent would join a university accelerator; and the majority, 58 per cent, would consider taking out a HELP loan, but the majority, 62 per cent, would expect to pay $6,000 or less. So whoops! Here's your own survey, Minister, that says that the majority of students would not expect to pay anything like more than $10,000 or more than $11,000. In fact, New South Wales TAFE is offering a very good course in entrepreneurship for about $6,000. So the majority of students have told you very clearly that they don't expect to pay such an exorbitant fee. So I would put to you, Minister, that the evidence to support students taking on such an exorbitant debt by doing a Startup Year course is not fair, and on behalf of all Australian students, frankly, I express my profound disappointment that the government has not been more mindful of the enormous burden that this could place on students.</para>
<para>Minister, are you able to inform the Senate as to which universities are planning which courses? Can you provide any detail about the sorts of courses that are going to be offered to students? What amazing courses will be on offer that students are going to pay $11,800 for? Could you describe the types of courses that you believe will, within 10 weeks, be rolled out?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Like you, Senator Henderson, I'm very excited about it, as I'm sure the chair is. Unfortunately, we will have to wait until those discussions have taken place, but as soon as we become aware I'm sure that the good news will be shared with you and the community as well.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, is the government aware that most accelerator courses and incubator courses are offered at no charge? I am just curious to know whether you've done that basic research.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I actually mentioned it in my summation speech, Senator Henderson, which I'm sure you were tuned into. We did talk about it, and we do know that they have been important, and I suppose that gives us confidence that there is demand out there for these courses. So we think it is a good thing—delivering on our election commitment—and we think it is a program that will be well received, because there is demand out there for this type of course.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not going to go over that one again, because that's laughable—sorry, I am laughing because it is absurd to suggest that there's currently demand for courses when these courses are available to students for free. You haven't made the case, even in your own survey, that students are going to line up to take on this debt. Unless there was something incredibly exceptional, I think students would be very unwise to take on this debt. Can you confirm whether Startup Year loans will be subject to indexation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The case that applies to all HECS loans will apply to this.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>And it is the case that Startup Year loans, Minister, won't contribute to a student's HECS loan limit, so if a student is at their capped HECS loan limit then they can go on to incur another very significant debt on top of that. That's the case, isn't it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's correct, Senator Henderson.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So isn't the government being totally irresponsible in protecting students? You are not even of the mind to cap a student's debt liability. Of course, as we know only too well, the higher your HECS debt the more difficult it is to even borrow money to buy a home, because your HECS debt is calculated in your overall liabilities. Some students and some young Australians are actually paying off their HECS debt and yet their HECS debt is going up. Why was the government not more mindful of the additional liability that this will place on students?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think we have acknowledged that. I have heard Minister Clare talk about it repeatedly. I've heard others talk about it. We had an ongoing session at education estimates about that. We understand that students are doing it tough in relation to their HECS debt. It is something the government are aware of, but we also do acknowledge the overwhelming difference that HECS has made for the country in terms of enabling people to go to university who otherwise would have missed out. I can put myself in that category. If it were not for HECS, I have no doubt I would never have been able to achieve at university. I am sure there would be others as well.</para>
<para>We understand it is an important component of the higher education space. It is capped. My understanding is that the accelerator start-up program is capped as well in terms of HECS. That is what will apply in relation to the start-up program.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the point I was making is that the Startup Year loan debt liability sits over and above the HECS cap, meaning that students are very vulnerable to attracting an additional debt, which puts them potentially in more hardship. How many students will a university require to commence a Startup Year course?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Obviously there are 1,000 in the scheme. How many each university will take on will be worked through as part of discussions following the passage of the legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It appears that there's a lot to work through, Minister. You have been in government for more than a year. Why aren't you able to answer these very basic questions, such as the types of courses that will be delivered and how many students will be required to run a course? It seems astonishing to me that you have been in government for such a long time and the government has so little detail and grasp of how this scheme is going to be delivered.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We obviously disagree, Senator Henderson. I suppose we have had a pretty big agenda. We've been delivering on 20,000 additional university places. We've also been focused on the university accord, but we also want to deliver on our election promises. That's what this legislation is about. The process that the department will go through with the sector, following this, would be to work out those exact details about the nature of the course and how many universities and students would be taken on at each one.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to clarify that there's currently an amendment before us, so I'll wait to move mine.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand why you ask. If there are no further questions, the question is that opposition amendment (1) on sheet 1965 revised be agreed to. A division having been called, the division will take place tomorrow, as per an earlier decision. Senator Pocock.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 2017:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 25, page 22 (after line 25), at the end of Subdivision 128E-B, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">128E-40 Reversal of STARTUP-HELP assistance: material non-compliance</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) An amount of *STARTUP-HELP assistance that a person received for an *accelerator program course provided during a period by a higher education provider is <inline font-style="italic">reversed</inline> if a report of an audit conducted in accordance with subsection (2) finds that there is any material non-compliance with respect to the course provided in the period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: For the consequences if an amount of assistance is reversed, see sections 128D-5, 128D-10 and 137-17. See also paragraph 128B-1(1)(c).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The STARTUP-HELP Guidelines may require higher education providers that provide *accelerator program courses to conduct internal audits, or to arrange for audits, of compliance with the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines with respect to the courses. The Guidelines may prescribe any or all of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) circumstances in which audits must be conducted or arranged;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requirements in relation to when and how audits must be conducted or arranged and reported on.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 73, page 34 (line 5), at the end of the definition of <inline font-style="italic">reversed</inline> in subclause 1(1) of Schedule 1, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; (f) section 128-40 (provider non-compliance).</para></quote>
<para>I understand these amendments would be contingent on amendments moved by Senator Henderson around the refund for students. I also share this concern for students going into newly formed accelerator programs, and, should those programs not be up to scratch, then having some sort of recourse, some sort of way to get a refund. These amendments state that a university can be required to conduct an audit of the course, and, should it be found to be deficient, then the students would be entitled to a refund. I thank Senator Henderson for her work on this bill and her concern for students who potentially would be billed for a course that does not necessarily meet the requirements, but I believe this is a way to achieve that outcome through using an audit. Minister, I just have one question. The bill being around startups and entrepreneurship, I'm interested in why the emphasis is on the accelerator programs creating qualifications rather than startups, and, with that in mind, whether the government will consider providing funding to expand accelerator programs that have a proven record of helping support startups. For example, here in Canberra the Canberra Innovation Network, CBRIN, has a long history of working with universities and working with students, helping them develop their startup. An independent review suggested that, for every $1 invested in CBRIN, they were returning $50 worth of value to the Canberra area.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On your amendment, Senator Pocock, I indicate the government will support these amendments. We believe these amendments are for a more targeted measure which conforms with the existing protections for students under the higher education legislation protection. In terms of the point you make about support for other programs, we do understand that it is important for the government to support other programs. I suppose the point with this is that it is linked to HECS, and that is why there needs to be a university course attached to it. That is why this program is focused on HECS and the courses that would be associated with that through higher education providers, but I do understand your point about support for other programs that are important as well and can generate economic opportunity and jobs as a result.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to ask Senator Pocock a couple of questions in relation to this provision. I understand that this is a provision which was drafted by the government. Senator Pocock, at first blush, this appears to be another way that students can access a reversal of their Startup Year fee. My concern is that there's no compulsion to include this provision in the Startup Year guidelines. If I take you to clause 2 of item 1, it says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The STARTUP-HELP Guidelines may require higher education providers that provide *accelerator program courses to conduct internal audits, or to arrange for audits, of compliance with the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines with respect to the courses. The Guidelines may prescribe any or all of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) circumstances in which audits must be conducted or arranged;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requirements in relation to when and how audits must be conducted or arranged and reported on.</para></quote>
<para>Senator Pocock, I think the government sold you a bit of a dud here, and the reason I say that—because we've also looked at this amendment—is that it's discretionary. The provision that the opposition has put forward, in relation to student refunds, puts the students first and foremost. There's a lot of legalese in this particular amendment, but the bottom line is that the government is not required to make these provisions, because of the way in which clause 2 of item 1 is drafted. I just want to raise that concern and ask you whether you also share my concerns that the government should not be allowed to be let off the hook on this and that it should be mandatory that the government provides students with the opportunity to have their fee reversed and to get the refund if, as I've talked about already in this debate, it is necessary—if a course doesn't measure up.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (1) and (2) moved by Senator David Pocock on sheet—sorry. Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is Senator Pocock able to address that? Understanding where the amendment came from, I'd be very happy if the government could explain that as well, given the government appears to be supporting this.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can assist. The audit element is under the existing protections, and the government will issue appropriate guidelines in due course as well.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I think it's probably unfair to Senator Pocock that you haven't been more transparent about this, and, mind you, we've only recently seen this amendment as well. My deep concern is that you're proposing that the STARTUP-HELP guidelines 'may' require higher education providers to conduct an internal audit. I'd invite Senator Pocock to reply if he has any concerns that he wants to share with the Senate on that. But my concern about this amendment is that there's no compulsion to do so. Therefore, it leaves students stranded without the appropriate mechanism to secure a refund, and it really only becomes a matter of discretion as to whether the government includes these provisions in the guidelines. Minister, I'd like to check something with you. As you know, I've received a copy of your guidelines during this debate, but, obviously, I haven't had an opportunity to read them. Do your guidelines provide provisions in relation to the requirement of universities to conduct an internal audit?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>CHISHOLM (—) (): Obviously, if any changes are made to the legislation here, we would update the guidelines as a result.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can you address that question, though? Do the guidelines currently provide that higher education providers must conduct internal audits or arrange for audits to be conducted so as to give students the pathway to obtain a refund?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the guidelines currently stand, my understanding is they do not.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the government open to including these provisions in the guidelines because—</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>HENDERSON () (): I'll just ignore that interjection. Is the government willing to include this as a mandatory obligation, because I understand this is Senator D Pocock's amendment, but currently this is only a matter of discretion, which gives students no guarantees whatsoever. So would the government agree, as a matter of course, to include this provision in the guidelines?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I already answered that, Senator Henderson. Yes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So you are indicating that you will be including this provision in the guidelines?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If the amendment is supported, yes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just wanting to raise a matter with Senator D Pocock. I'm still considering our position in relation to this amendment, because we haven't had a division in relation to the amendments brought forward by the opposition, so it's quite tricky to work out whether our provision in relation to refunds for student debt will be supported. We need to keep our options open, at this point in time, because divisions will be held tomorrow.</para>
<para>Senator D Pocock, in relation to provision (2), what I'm wanting to propose is that the word 'may' be deleted and replaced with the word 'must' in both the first line and in the fourth line. So it would read:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The STARTUP-HELP Guidelines—</para></quote>
<para>must—</para>
<quote><para class="block">… require higher education providers that provide accelerator program courses to conduct internal audits, or to arrange for audits, of compliance with the STARTUP-HELP Guidelines with respect to the courses.</para></quote>
<para>The guidelines must:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… prescribe any or all of the following.</para></quote>
<para>I'm proposing that this amendment be further amended by amending those two words, deleting 'may' and replacing those words with 'must'. Could I ask you to respond to that, Senator D Pocock.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for the question. I'm engaging in this in good faith. We've heard from the government. They've stated that they will update the guidelines to be consistent with whatever passes here. I don't see a problem with moving from 'may' to 'must', but I'm happy to engage on this more. You said this is the first you've seen it circulated in the chamber. My understanding is that there have been discussions about this. Is this the first time you've seen it or have you actually seen this amendment before?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That amendments (1) and (2) moved by Senator David Pocock on sheet 2017 be agreed to.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Pratt</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order, Chair. We need to know whether Senator Pocock amended his amendment before it was moved or not. No? Good.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hen</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There was a bit of a lack of clarity in relation to that. I am seeking for provision 2 to be amended to replace the word 'may' with 'must' in both line 1 and line 4. Chair, I'm in your hands. If I propose that formally as a motion, do I need to seek leave? Can I seek leave to move that amendment to provision 2?</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: No. What I can do to assist the chamber is put the question again, and, if it goes to a division being required tomorrow, hopefully that can be sorted out by tomorrow.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could I ask the government to confirm something? From you saying that you won't agree to changing the wording in provision 2 from 'may' to 'must' so that there is an obligation to include this provision in the guidelines, I can only deduce that the government is not committed to providing the rights of an internal audit such that students can then access a refund, which is deeply concerning. Why would the government not agree to this if you were committed to giving students a refund using this mechanism?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We've agreed to support the amendment that has been put forward by Senator David Pocock. As I mentioned before, that will obviously result in an amendment to the guidelines as well, and that is what the government will do in response if this amendment being supported.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: I will take it, then, that Senator David Pocock's motion was put and voted on. Are you happy for it to stand as it was a couple of minutes ago, or do I need to put the question again?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Could you put the question again.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1) and (2), moved by Senator David Pocock, on Sheet 2017 be agreed to. A division will be required for tomorrow.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I move the Greens's two amendments on Sheet 1931, I have a question. Do I seek leave to move them together? I do want to have the question on each of them put separately, so should I move them separately, or can I move them together and then the questions can be put separately?</para>
<para>T he TEMPORARY CHAIR: You can move them together and then put the questions that you want to deal with it separately.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1931 revised together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Page 38 (after line 15), after Schedule 1, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1A — Abolishing indexation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 1 — HELP debts</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 Section 129-1</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Accumulated HELP debt, or the indexation of that debt, may be reduced for certain HELP debtors working in rural, remote or very remote areas (see Divisions 142 and 144).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Accumulated HELP debt may be reduced for certain HELP debtors working in rural, remote or very remote areas (see Divisions 142 and 144).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 Paragraph 140-1(2)(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Subsection 140-5(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all the words before the method statement, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person's <inline font-style="italic">former accumulated HELP debt</inline>, in relation to the person's *accumulated HELP debt for a financial year, is the amount worked out using the following method statement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 Subsection 140-5(1) (example)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the example, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Example: Lorraine is studying part-time for a Degree of Bachelor of Communications. On 1 June 2022, Lorraine had an accumulated HELP debt of $15,000. She incurred a HELP debt of $1,500 on 31 March 2022. She made a voluntary repayment of $525 on 1 May 2023. Lorraine lodged her 2021-22 income tax return and a compulsory repayment amount of $3,000 was assessed and notified on her income tax notice of assessment on 3 September 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To work out Lorraine's former accumulated HELP debt on 1 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 1: Take the previous accumulated HELP debt of $15,000 on 1 June 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 2: Add the HELP debt of $1,500 incurred on 31 March 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 3: Subtract the $525 voluntary repayment made on 1 May 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 4: Subtract the $3,000 compulsory repayment assessed on 3 September 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 5: Does not apply because since 1 June 2022 Lorraine had no amendments to any assessment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 6: Does not apply because since 1 June 2022 Lorraine had no amendments to any assessment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Lorraine's former accumulated HELP debt on 1 June 2023 is:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">($15,000 + $1,500)—($525 + $3,000) = $12,975</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 Sections 140-10, 140-20 and 142-10</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the sections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6 Section 198-1 (notes 1 and 2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the notes, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Guidelines may provide for amounts to be indexed using the method of indexation set out in this Part.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7 Section 206-1 (table item 2AA)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">8 Subclause 1(1) of Schedule 1 (definition of <inline font-style="italic">HELP debt indexation factor</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The amendments of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003 </inline>made by this Part apply in relation to the financial year starting on 1 July 2023 and each later financial year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Despite the repeal of section 142-10 of the <inline font-style="italic">Higher </inline><inline font-style="italic">Education Support Act 2003</inline> and item 2AA of the table in section 206-1 of that Act by this Part, those provisions continue to apply on and after the commencement of this Part in relation to the indexation of a person's accumulated HELP debt for a financial year starting on or before 1 July 2022, as if the repeals had not happened.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 2 — Student start-up loans and student financial supplement scheme</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Security Act 1991</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10 Section 19AA (definition of <inline font-style="italic">HELP debt indexation factor</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11 Section 1061ZVEA (paragraph (a) of the paragraph beginning "In stage 1")</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12 Subsection 1061ZVEB(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all the words before the method statement, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person's <inline font-style="italic">former accumulated SSL debt</inline>, in relation to the person's accumulated SSL debt for a financial year, is the amount worked out using the following method statement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 Subsection 1061ZX(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14 Subsection 1061ZX(6)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "indexed".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15 Section 1061ZZEP</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 061ZZEP How to work out FS debt</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The FS debt is the amount outstanding under the contract at the termination date.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16 Subsection 1061ZZER(2) (formula)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the formula, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Adjusted accumulated FS debt + Later FS debts</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17 Subsection 1061ZZER(3) (definition of <inline font-style="italic">indexation factor</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">18 Section 1061ZZET</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">19 Subsection 1061ZZEU(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "1061ZZET", substitute "1061ZZES".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">20 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The amendments of Chapter 2AA of the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security Act 1991 </inline>made by this Part apply in relation to the financial year starting on 1 July 2023 and each later financial year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The amendments of Chapter 2B of the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security Act 1991</inline> made by this Part apply in relation to working out a person's FS debt or accumulated FS debt at 1 June 2024 and each later 1 June.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3 — ABSTUDY student start-up loans and financial supplement for tertiary students</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Student Assistance Act 1973</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">21 Section 3 (definitions of <inline font-style="italic">HELP debt indexation factor </inline> and <inline font-style="italic">i</inline> <inline font-style="italic">ndexation amount</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definitions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">22 Section 9A (paragraph (a) of the paragraph beginning "In stage 1")</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">23 Subsection 9B(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all the words before the method statement, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person's <inline font-style="italic">former ABSTUDY </inline><inline font-style="italic">accumulated SSL debt</inline>, in relation to the person's accumulated ABSTUDY SSL debt for a financial year, is the amount worked out using the following method statement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24 Subsection 12A(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The student is entitled, but not required, to make early repayments above a certain amount in respect of the supplement during the period of the contract. There is a discount, worked out under subsection 12ZA(7) or (7A), for repayments made before the end of that period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">25 Subsection 12A(5)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "indexed".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26 Section 12W</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "(including the amount attributable to indexation, which is identified by section 12Y)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27 Subsection 12X(3) (definition of <inline font-style="italic">the amount outstanding</inline> ) (formula)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the formula, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">previous amount outstanding <inline font-style="italic">minus</inline> (actual repayments + discounts)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">28 Subsection 12ZF(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If, at the end of the contract period in relation to a financial supplement contract between a participating corporation and another person, there was an amount outstanding under the contract, the person incurs on 1 June immediately following the end of that period a debt (<inline font-style="italic">FS debt</inline>) to the Commonwealth.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29 Subsection 12ZF(3) (formula)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the formula, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">adjusted accumulated FS debt + later FS debts</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">30 Subsection 12ZF(3) (definition of <inline font-style="italic">indexation factor</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">31 Subsection 12ZF(6), (7), (7A) and (7B)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">32 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The amendments of Part 2 of the <inline font-style="italic">Stude</inline><inline font-style="italic">nt Assistance Act 1973 </inline>made by this Part apply in relation to the financial year starting on 1 July 2023 and each later financial year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The amendments of Part 4A of the <inline font-style="italic">Student Assistance Act 1973</inline> made by this Part apply in relation to working out a person's FS debt or accumulated FS debt at 1 June 2024 and each later 1 June.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 4 — Trade support loans</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Trade Support Loans Act 2014</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">33 Section 5 (definition of <inline font-style="italic">index number</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "33", substitute "99A".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34 Section 5 (definition of <inline font-style="italic">TSL debt indexation factor</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">35 Section 30 (paragraph (a) of the paragraph beginning "In stage 1")</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">36 Subsection 31(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all the words before the method statement, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person's <inline font-style="italic">former accumulated TSL debt</inline>, in relation to the person's accumulated TSL debt for a financial year, is the amount worked out using the following method statement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">37 Sections 32, 33 and 34</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the sections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">38 Subsection 99(5) (note)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the note, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: See section 99A for the definition of <inline font-style="italic">index number</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">39 After section 99</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">99A Index numbers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The <inline font-style="italic">index number </inline>for a quarter is the All Groups Consumer Price Index number, being the weighted average of the 8 capital cities, published by the Australian Statistician in respect of that quarter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Subject to subsection (3), if, at any time before or after the commencement of this Act:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Australian Statistician has published or publishes an index number in respect of a quarter; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) that index number is in substitution for an index number previously published by the Australian Statistician in respect of that quarter;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">disregard the publication of the later index number for the purposes of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If, at any time before or after the commencement of this Act, the Australian Statistician has changed or changes the index reference period for the All Groups Consumer Price Index, then, in applying this section after the change took place or takes place, have regard only to index numbers published in terms of the new index reference period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">40 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments of the <inline font-style="italic">Trade Support Loans Act 2014</inline> made by this Part apply in relation to the financial year starting on 1 July 2023 and each later financial year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 5 — VET student loans</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">VET Student Loans Act 2016</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">41 Section 23CA (paragraph (a) of the paragraph beginning "In stage 1")</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">42 Subsection 23CB(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit all the words before the method statement, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A person's <inline font-style="italic">f</inline><inline font-style="italic">ormer accumulated VETSL debt</inline>, in relation to the person's accumulated VETSL debt for a financial year, is the amount worked out using the following method statement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">43 Subsection 23CB(1) (example)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the example, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Example: Lorraine is studying part-time for a Diploma of Early Childhood Education and Care. On 1 June 2022, Lorraine had an accumulated VETSL debt of $15,000. She incurred a VETSL debt of $1,500 on 31 March 2022. She made a voluntary repayment of $525 on 1 May 2023. Lorraine lodged her 2021-22 income tax return and a compulsory VETSL repayment amount of $3,000 was assessed and notified on her income tax notice of assessment on 3 September 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To work out Lorraine's former accumulated VETSL debt on 1 June 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 1: Take the previous accumulated VETSL debt of $15,000 on 1 June 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 2: Add the VETSL debt of $1,500 incurred on 31 March 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 3: Subtract the $525 voluntary repayment made on 1 May 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 4: Subtract the $3,000 compulsory repayment assessed on 3 September 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 5: Does not apply because since 1 June 2022 Lorraine had no amendments to any assessment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Step 6: Does not apply because since 1 June 2022 Lorraine had no amendments to any assessment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Lorraine's former accumulated VETSL debt on 1 June 2023 is:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">($15,000 + $1,500)—($525 + $3,000) = $12,975</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">44 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments of the <inline font-style="italic">VET Student Loans Act 2016 </inline>made by this Part apply in relation to the financial year starting on 1 July 2023 and each later financial year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Page 39 (before line 1), before Schedule 2, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1B — Raising minimum repayment income and repayment amount</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 Section 154-10</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">154-10 Minimum repayment income</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The <inline font-style="italic">minimum repayment income</inline>for an *income year is the *median wage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Median wage is defined in section 154-11.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">154-11 Meaning of <inline font-style="italic">median wage</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The <inline font-style="italic">median wage </inline>for an *income year is 52 times the amount set out for the most recent month of August before the start of the income year under the headings "Weekly earnings—Total" in a document by the Australian Statistician entitled "Employee earnings".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) If at any time (whether before or after the commencement of this section), the Australian Statistician publishes the amount referred to in subsection (1):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) under differently described headings (the <inline font-style="italic">new headings</inline>); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in a document entitled otherwise than as described above in subsection (1) (the <inline font-style="italic">new document</inline>);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">then the median wageis to be calculated in accordance with subsection (1) as if the references to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) "Weekly earnings—Total"; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) "Employee earnings";</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">were references to the new headings and/or the new document, as the case requires.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Australian Statistician published the amount (the <inline font-style="italic">later amount</inline>) referred to in subsection (1) for a month of August; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the later amount is published in substitution for such an amount for that month that was previously published by the Australian Statistician or that was applicable because of subsection (7);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the publication of the later amount is to be disregarded for the purposes of this Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Determination of amount by Minister</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) If the Australian Statistician has not published the amount referred to in subsection (1) for a month of August before the end of the first 31 March after that month of August, the Minister may, by legislative instrument, determine an amount for that month of August.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) In determining an amount for a month of August under subsection (4), the Minister must make a genuine attempt to determine the amount accurately, taking into account all relevant evidence available to the Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) If the Minister determines an amount for a month of August under subsection (4), the Minister must, as soon as practicable, cause to be published, on the Department's website, a statement of reasons explaining the basis on which the Minister determined the amount.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) If the Minister determines an amount for a month of August under subsection (4), the amount referred to in subsection (1) for that month is taken to be the amount determined in the instrument under subsection (4) for that month.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: The median wage for the first income year to start after that month of August will be 52 times the amount that is taken to be the amount referred to in subsection (1) for the month.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 Section 154-20 (table)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the table, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Section 154-25</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 Paragraph 154-30(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the amounts referred to in the second column of items 1 to 15 in the table in section 154-20;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 Subclause 1(1) of Schedule 1</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">median wage </inline>has the meaning given by subsection 154-11(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Security Act 1991</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6 Subsection 19AB(2) (definition of <inline font-style="italic">minimum repayment income</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">minimum repayment income</inline> has the same meaning as in the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7 Section 1061ZZFB</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Student Assistance Act 1973</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">8 Subsection 3(1) (definition of <inline font-style="italic">minimum repayment income</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">minimum repayment income</inline> has the same meaning as in the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act 2003</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 Section 12ZLA</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments made by this Schedule apply in relation to the 2024-25 income year and later income years.</para></quote>
<para>Amendment (1) will abolish indexation on student debt. This is a debate that we've been having for some time, and I know that many senators in this chamber are concerned about this. I know that Senator Henderson has expressed a lot of concern about the rising indexation and how it is impacting students. So I hope that, by splitting this amendment, it will give an opportunity for senators to actually vote for one or the other or both. I don't think I need to make another case here for why this is being done because I've spoken about it almost every single day for the last six months and already have a bill in the Senate, so that's it from me.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Faruqi, for that contribution. These amendments will be opposed by the government. The government is examining the Universities Accord, which I'm reluctant to mention after our Senate estimates process. But I will do it once again and hope that you'll forgive me. It's important to understand, as I mentioned before, how HECS-HELP works. It is not like a home loan or a personal loan, where, if the interest goes up, your payments go up. It's built on a really important principle that you pay what you can afford, and you don't pay more unless you earn more. To remove or freeze indexation on loans or not apply it to a future loan means shifting that financial burden onto taxpayers. So the government will be opposing these amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just rise to confirm that the coalition is not supporting these amendments. Since the introduction of the Higher Education Contribution Scheme in 1989 by the Hawke Labor government and later its replacement, the Higher Education Loan Program, it has enjoyed, by and large, major bipartisan support. This is a scheme that has worked well to support students to take on a university course and not have to find the funding for that course upfront. It has generally been a very successful scheme, but we have seen deep concerns arise by reason of escalating student debt, with an indexation of 7.1 per cent.</para>
<para>I remind senators here that, over the last decade, principally under the coalition government, the average indexation rate was just two per cent. Over three years, under this government, we are looking at a total indexation of 15 per cent. So the best thing, frankly, that we can do is see the return of a Liberal-National government which knows how to run the economy, which prioritises lower inflation, which reins in spending and which runs the economy responsibly. It's no accident that we saw very, very low indexation under our government. Students and young Australians—in fact, more than three million Australians—who have been hit with an average increase in their student debt of $1,700 a year have every right to question the government's competence in relation to this scheme. We hope and trust that under a future Liberal-National government the scheme will return to the great success that it was with moderate indexation, allowing students to do the courses of their choice, to follow their dreams to go to university, to take on a HELP loan, whether it be HECS or some other loan, and to do so in a way which is a fair and equitable. Be that as it may, this is a bridge too far, and the opposition won't be supporting these amendments.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that the Greens motions 1 and 2 on sheet 1931 revised, moved by leave together, shall be agreed to. A division having been called, it will be dealt with tomorrow.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
<para>Ordered that the committee have leave to sit again on the next day of sitting.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>102</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6995" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>102</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the coalition, I rise to speak on the Infrastructure Australia Amendment (Independent Review) Bill 2023. The purpose of this bill is to amend the Infrastructure Australia Act 2008 to give partial effect to the government's response to the independent review of Infrastructure Australia which was released on 7 December last year. Reviewing Infrastructure Australia was a pre-election commitment of the government and the independent review of this body was announced on 22 July 2022. The review was undertaken by Nicole Lockwood, the chair of Infrastructure Western Australia, and Mike Mrdak AO, a former secretary of the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development and also of the Department of Communications and the Arts.</para>
<para>Infrastructure Australia is a corporate Commonwealth entity, established by the Rudd government in 2008. The bill provides a new object in the act for Infrastructure Australia to be the government's independent adviser on nationally significant infrastructure planning and project prioritisation. This gives partial effect to recommendation 1 of the independent review. However, the coalition notes the independent review's first recommendation to the government included the advice that Infrastructure Australia's mandate should be expanded beyond advising on nationally significant transport, energy, communications and water infrastructure, to be the government's independent adviser on nationally significant social and economic infrastructure also. Recommendation 6 of the independent review also suggested Infrastructure Australia's remit be expanded to include social infrastructure. These recommendations have been rejected by the government and are therefore not featured in this bill.</para>
<para>The bill also repeals almost all of the current functions of Infrastructure Australia as provided in sections 5A to GB and in sections 5A to 5C of the current act. In place of Infrastructure Australia's current functions, the bill proposes new functions and products to conduct audits or assessments of nationally significant infrastructure to determine adequacy and needs; to conduct or endorse evaluations of infrastructure projects; to develop targeted infrastructure lists and plans; and to provide advice on nationally significant infrastructure matters. The bill also amends the Infrastructure Australia Act 2008 to replace the current 12-member Infrastructure Australia board with three commissioners appointed by the minister, comprising a chief commissioner and two other commissioners. Additionally, transitional arrangements are included in the bill to recognise the existing work of Infrastructure Australia.</para>
<para>So what we have here in this bill is the government admitting that the legislative structure, put in place originally by the now Prime Minister, needs to be fixed and, as a result, it has decided to give Infrastructure Australia a new object, new functions and completely new governance. This bill is framed as giving effect to the recommendations of the independent review, however, a critical assessment of the response to the review shows the government has not in fact accepted a number of its key recommendations. The review received 59 submissions and held 40 meetings, with approximately 140 participants across government and industry. In October 2022, the independent review provided its report to the government, outlining 16 recommendations and a further matter for government consideration.</para>
<para>As mentioned, the government's response to the independent review did not support a number of the report's recommendations. In fact, eight out of the 16 were effectively not supported. The government did not support key recommendations to provide enhanced transparency. An example of this was a proposal that Infrastructure Australia provide two new annual statements to the government which would be publicly tabled to inform budget processes and to report on the performance outcomes being achieved by the Infrastructure Investment Program. The government has suggested annual budget statements will be provided to government, but not made public.</para>
<para>Also, a proposal that the Australian government must formally and publicly respond to Infrastructure Australia's advice, findings and recommendations within six month was not supported. Despite what the government says, the Australian people can clearly see that this administration unfortunately has an aversion to being transparent. The government also did not support the recommendation to form an infrastructure bodies council to enable better collaboration and coordination between Infrastructure Australia and the states and territories. Several other recommendations of the independent review will be implemented via non-legislative processes, including by a ministerial statement of expectation and an infrastructure policy statement on land transport.</para>
<para>The government's changes will reduce the independence of Infrastructure Australia. The government is replacing the 12-member Infrastructure Australia board with three commissioners appointed by the government. This reduces the diversity of expertise at the head of this body and reduces the independent voices on the governing structure. The views of the minister will hold significant influence with the three commissioners who are themselves appointed by the minister. This compares with the current governance model whereby nine Infrastructure Australia board members are appointed by the government and three are appointed from nominations agreed by the governments of the state, the Australian Capital Territory and the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>When added to the redefined functions of Infrastructure Australia in this bill, which require the commissioners to have regard to the government's policies and require them to evaluate infrastructure proposals submitted by the government, it is clear that Infrastructure Australia will enjoy less independence in the future. The government has made no provision in the bill for commissioners to be appointed who have expertise and experience in issues impacting particularly regional Australia. The coalition will propose amendments to address this concern, and I encourage the government and all senators to give close consideration to supporting these.</para>
<para>In addition to making Infrastructure Australia less independent, the government's reforms will make Infrastructure Australia a less authoritative body when it comes to the evaluation of infrastructure projects. The minister wants to shrink the number of projects on the infrastructure priority list. This is even mentioned in the explanatory memorandum. By proposing to streamline Infrastructure Australia's focus on a smaller number of nationally significant infrastructure projects, the government is reducing its utility. The government is also proposing that Infrastructure Australia merely endorse project assessments of the priorities of the state governments. So, instead of one national adviser in infrastructure, there will be eight separate state and territory authorities doing business cases. That's less consistency, not more. This will provide less capability, more bureaucracy and, as we have discovered in the northern Australia agenda, a real missed opportunity for coordination across state and territory jurisdictions.</para>
<para>The Commonwealth government makes substantial investments in public infrastructure, which is delivered and ultimately owned by the states and territories. Often the Commonwealth is investing 50 per cent, or, in regional areas, 80 per cent, of the funding to deliver major road projects. Australian taxpayers expect the Commonwealth parliament to exercise suitable oversight that infrastructure projects provide material benefit and that maximum value for investment is secured, but, unfortunately, there is no evidence that these reforms will deliver any improvement.</para>
<para>The coalition recognises that, since the election, there have been questions over the future mandate and operations of Infrastructure Australia, and, as a result of the government's approach, there were five, let's call them, 'resignations' from the board resulting in several months where the board lacked a quorum with members. Since that time, Infrastructure Australia has been spinning its wheels. It will be interesting to see whether the government cared enough to replace the board members with people from, say, northern Australia or regional Australia. Let's see how well the government goes about appointing union mates to the three commission appointments.</para>
<para>Infrastructure Australia is an important body—well, at least, it used to be. It used to be an important body, and it is important that the parliament provides the organisation with a clear mandate for its future activities.</para>
<para>The federal coalition does not seek to frustrate the passage of the government's legislation; however, we must. We will be putting forward amendments to this bill. This—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald.</para>
<para>Debate interrupted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>104</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania: Aquaculture Industry</title>
          <page.no>104</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Tasmanian aquaculture and, in particular, the salmon industry across Tasmania continue to be world leaders, despite concerns raised by vocal minorities. I proudly stand by the many Tasmanians and their families who work in this proud industry. Aquaculture now provides more than 50 per cent of Australia's seafood and is acknowledged around the world as being the fastest-growing food sector, with global production still expected to double by 2030.</para>
<para>As an island, Tasmania is so fortunate to have the pristine Southern Ocean on its doorstep. Sustainable aquaculture is fundamental in providing a sustainable food supply for the entire world, and the Tasmanian seafood industry is now the most valuable across Australia. Further to this, Tasmania really is the food bowl of the nation, with more than 80 per cent of seafood products sold domestically, with the possibility for export to expand way beyond what we are enjoying at the moment. Eighty per cent of seafood products sold domestically come from Tasmania.</para>
<para>The aquaculture industry's economic contribution to Tasmania should not be underestimated. Independent economic analysis shows that, on average, annual turnover or total value of industry production exceeds $1.2 billion. From pretty humble beginnings over 20 years ago, the Tasmanian salmon industry now generates 5,200-plus Tasmanian jobs, directly and indirectly. These jobs are in highly specialised areas, and the most important thing is that they're full-time jobs in regional Tasmania.</para>
<para>The fact is that this industry has the potential to support many more local families. Tasmania is blessed to have five large primary producers of high quality fish. These include Huon Aquaculture, Tassal, SALTAS, Van Diemen Aquaculture and Petuna.</para>
<para>The industry has had its critics over many years and some have tried to undermine and destroy the industry, but it has been a resilient industry and has gone from strength to strength. And I know my Tasmanian colleagues here tonight would agree with me.</para>
<para>The fact is: this industry is a world leader. The industry is known around the world for having world's-best environmental practices and is regularly contacted and consulted by international companies for advice on sustainability measures. An independent inquiry has determined that the environmental concerns raised were not supported by expert advice and objective scientific data. The state government was overseeing a comprehensive and robust monitoring regime. Tasmania is known nationally and globally for its clean, green product, and we are proud, as a state, to produce such high quality Atlantic salmon and ocean trout for people at home and abroad, just as we are proud of our agriculture and viticulture industries.</para>
<para>I stand with the Australian Workers Union in their support for the salmon industry and the Tasmanian workforce. As I said, in excess of 5,000 Tasmanians in regional areas are working in the salmon industry. That is so important to those regional economies, and we know how important that is to our economy.</para>
<para>Tasmania is well placed to capitalise on the growing demand for high-quality and sustainable fish, especially amongst the growing Asian middle class and those in a new powerhouse like India. The export opportunities are endless, which is why our industry must be supported. We know that sustainable practice is crucial to securing those jobs and the viability of the industry. Tasmania needs sustainable, long-term jobs, and aquaculture can provide them. By supporting Tasmanian aquaculture, we are supporting local jobs—local jobs in regional Tasmania.</para>
<para>We know that this industry is only going to grow. We know how important Tasmania is in the food bowl of this country—what we're able to supply domestically—and internationally. I can't emphasise enough how important those regional jobs are to those local economies because the money keeps going round and round in those communities. For once my Liberal colleague—I find it hard to say this, but my Liberal colleague supports me. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme</title>
          <page.no>105</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to make it very clear that the opposition supports cheaper and easier access to medicines. In fact, during our time in government, between 2013 and 2022, we listed 2,900 new or amended medicines on the PBS. And we know that Labor stopped listing medicines in 2012 because they couldn't manage money. In 2022 we reduced the safety net thresholds for all Australians who rely heavily on prescription medicines. We led the way with the policy to reduce the co-payment, a policy that the Labor Party subsequently copied. So the track record of the coalition on supporting Australians into affordable medicines is absolutely undeniable, no matter what those opposite might try and claim.</para>
<para>What we object to about the latest policy of this government is not the concept of 60-day dispensing but the means by which the Labor government is intending to implement it. Let's be clear. The government is claiming credit for a cost-of-living relief measure that is being paid for entirely by Australia's 5,900 community pharmacies. That's 5,900 largely small businesses.</para>
<para>The government are also being totally disingenuous about the money they are claiming to be reinvesting in community pharmacies. Firstly, they're only proposing to spend $1.2 billion, which is the savings to government because of the dispensing fee and the AHI, or handling fees, and the items that they're proposing to expend money on under this particular measure are not new funding for community pharmacies; it's just money that's going in and out again. So there is no real benefit to pharmacies at all.</para>
<para>But the real kicker in this policy is that the government have remained totally silent about the up to $2.4 billion of income that will be forgone by community pharmacies because of the reduction in the number of co-payments that the pharmacy will be able to access. So, despite the then shadow minister for health and now the minister, Mark Butler, making a commitment to community pharmacies that a Labor government would not seek to undermine their viability, that is exactly what this government has done.</para>
<para>In a letter dated 12 May 2022 to the president of the Pharmacy Guild, the minister, Mr Butler, said this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Labor … looks forward to working with the Guild to ensure the implementation of the current community pharmacy agreement includes reforms that do not negatively impact on either the viability of community pharmacies or patient's access to community pharmacy services.</para></quote>
<para>Fast-forward to today, and we learn through a report by renowned economist Henry Ergas that 665 pharmacies will like close as a result of this measure, 20,000 Australians are likely to lose their jobs, existing free services are likely to no longer be available and, when they are, there will be a fee charged for them—things like home deliveries, blood pressure checks and filling Webster packs. We know that the impact will be disproportionately felt by the elderly, the more vulnerable, and rural and remote communities because they are always more greatly impacted than metropolitan areas. We also know that it's likely there will be increased emergency department interactions due to less opportunity for pharmacies to triage.</para>
<para>Today the government doubled down on its policy, claiming that it rejected the findings of Mr Ergas, but we know that the government's own impact assessment found that the policy was far from best practice and that 'the community pharmacy sector will be significantly impacted' by this measure. We also know the policy hasn't been modelled, thanks to the Minister for Finance's advice at estimates. We know the policy wasn't consulted on prior to the announcement, because even the National Rural Health Commissioner wasn't consulted. We know the Pharmacy Guild wasn't told that they were wearing the full cost of this measure until six days out from the announcement.</para>
<para>There's a very dangerous pattern of behaviour starting to emerge with this government: they announce a catchy retail headline, there's no detail, they don't consult, they don't consider secondary effects and then they try and retrofit a justification for the policy.</para>
<para>So today, again, the opposition is calling on the government to go back to the table with all pharmacy stakeholders and make good on your pre-election promise to not negatively impact the viability of community pharmacies. If you want 60-day dispensing and affordable access to medicine, then negotiate with the guild to keep good faith with the Seventh Community Pharmacy Agreement, or get on with negotiating the eighth agreement.</para>
<para>S enate adjourned at 20:10</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>