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<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2022-11-30</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Wednesday, 30 November 2022</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 09:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Bullying, Sexual Harassment and Sexual Assault</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senators, today is the first anniversary of the Sex Discrimination Commissioner's report <inline font-style="italic">Set the </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">tandard</inline><inline font-style="italic">:</inline><inline font-style="italic"> report on the independent review into </inline><inline font-style="italic">Commonwealth </inline><inline font-style="italic">parliamentary workplaces</inline>, and I welcome that one-year anniversary. As presiding officers, we again acknowledge the history of unacceptable behaviour in Parliament House and recommit the parliament to positive change.</para>
<para>The <inline font-style="italic">Set the </inline><inline font-style="italic">s</inline><inline font-style="italic">tandard</inline> report highlighted that a high rate of people, particularly women, in Commonwealth parliamentary workplaces have experienced bullying, sexual harassment or actual or attempted sexual assault. This is unacceptable. We restate the commitment of the parliament to making lasting change to ensure this does not continue.</para>
<para>We have an ongoing responsibility to create workplaces that attract and support the best people our country has to offer.</para>
<para>The Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce is leading meaningful change in the parliament. We commend their commitment in understanding and addressing the issues that have been ignored for too long.</para>
<para>Since February, there has already been significant progress in implementing the 28 recommendations of the report. Legislation has been amended to clarify our duties in respect of employment, antidiscrimination and work health and safety laws. Proposed codes of conduct will be released shortly that cover the work of parliamentarians, staff and parliamentary workplaces, and I commend that committee on its work today. Changes to the sitting calendar and hours of sitting now consider wellbeing, balance and flexibility. New parliamentarians and their staff have participated in refreshed induction processes. A feasibility study into a parliamentary health and wellbeing service is being conducted, with plans to improve services for parliamentarians and staff, including GP services, pharmaceutical services and mental health supports. Work is underway to improve work health and safety, accessibility for those with disability and professional support available for parliamentarians and staff. The Parliamentary Workplace Support Service has been expanded. It is already providing confidential support and advice to those in Commonwealth parliamentary workplaces. The Senate and House procedure committees are examining orders and conventions to improve levels of safety and respect in the chamber and to enhance wellbeing balance and flexibility.</para>
<para>Looking forward, some of the notable work underway includes the establishment of a new human resources function to support parliamentarians and their staff and the development of new measures to support greater diversity and inclusion.</para>
<para>The framework for action set out in the <inline font-style="italic">Set the </inline><inline font-style="italic">standard</inline> report is leadership, diversity and inclusion, accountability and safety and wellbeing.</para>
<para>We all have a responsibility to display exemplary individual leadership. We all have a role to play to set the standard for an inclusive, respectful and professional workplace here in Parliament House and across Australia. Thank you, senators.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>2</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>2</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bills be considered at the time for private Senators' bills this week: the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 today and the Commonwealth Electoral Amendment (Banning Dirty Donations) Bill 2022 on Thursday 1 December.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>2</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>2</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1337" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>2</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, my Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 was drafted in response to exploitation of casual coalminers in central Queensland and the Hunter Valley. It's since been widened. My bill was referred to the Education and Employment Legislation Committee for inquiry, and I thank the committee for organising a public hearing so miners could testify about their exploitation personally. The committee found there was a need for my bell yet then recommended waiting for the government's version. Labor announced its hollow 'fair work for fair pay' idea back in 2018, four years ago. Labor and the unions campaigned on their bill in the 2019 state election in New South Wales and the 2019 federal election.</para>
<para>The problem is that Labor's bill did not exist. I confirmed that and began drafting my bill in April 2021. Labor's bill was not introduced into parliament until December 2021, a month after my bill was completed and three years after Labor first promised it. If the Labor Party were serious about fixing this issue, their bill would have appeared in 2018, not four years later after One Nation repeatedly called them out.</para>
<para>Labor's bill was a dog's breakfast, so the government has chosen to start over. Now, I accept the government saying it's just started meeting with stakeholders, yet a briefing with the minister's advisers last week revealed that consultation has only been with the companies and union bosses that perpetrated this scandal. The miners, air crew, ground crew and other workers ripped off for tens of millions in wages have not yet been consulted after six months, which of course means the Labor Party, the CFMMEU and the industry are trying to find a way to keep these labour-hire contracts going. I'll explain why in a minute. And so I'm advancing my bill, preparing for a vote early next year. I thank Senator Babet for allowing me to use his bills time today.</para>
<para>Early in my career, I spent three years in the union as an underground coalface miner, including in the Hunter and Queensland. My father was an underground coalface miner, senior executive and later Queensland Chief Inspector of Coal Mines. He was awarded an Order of Australia for eliminating black lung in our state's coal industry. Having completed an honours degree in engineering, I returned to manage coalmines, which involved daily interaction with the CFMEU in the Hunter and in Queensland. This issue is very personal to me because the CFMEU and its predecessor, the Miners Federation, were once strong unions that looked after and served their members. The reports I received in my Senate office in 2019 from Queensland and the Hunter have shocked me. After visiting these areas repeatedly and listening to miners, I was no longer shocked. I am outraged at the injustice.</para>
<para>The big picture is this. Labour hire companies were employing casuals in black coal industry production despite the award not allowing it. It was illegal. Exclusion of casuals extends beyond the black coal industry. It includes airline flight crew and other awards, which I will speak to in a moment. Back to the black coal award. Casuals are excluded for a good reason. Coal mining can be dangerous. It requires training and constant skilling to improve productivity and, most importantly, for safety—safety of an individual miner and safety of the whole mine and everyone in it.</para>
<para>Underground miners typically retire ahead of most other industries, when they can no longer do the physical work. That's why proper unions like the old Miners' Federation negotiated high rates of pay. The modern award is much lower than negotiated rates because it assumes miners can be reskilled and redeployed into other industries after they exit from mining, allowing for a full working life. That's a fairytale. That simply ignores the reality of life in the coal industry. Labour hire contracts are used to cut miners' wages. This represents a 40 per cent cut in wages against the pay a permanent miner earns in a mine's direct employ, doing the same job, side by side. Two Australians working side by side doing the same job on the same shift, and one is getting 40 per cent less than the other. That is wrong.</para>
<para>This has been going on for ten years under the Hunter CFMEU, working with some mining companies and with protection from the local Labor members, Joel Fitzgibbon and now Dan Repacholi. Casual coal workers on labour hire contracts supposedly receive a loading for loss of holiday and sick pay; yet their pay packets are still 40 per cent less. What caused this large reduction in pay was not the absence of loading, because that was supposedly paid. It was the very low base rate that the CFMEU installed.</para>
<para>In 2021 One Nation supported the concept of not enabling workers paid for casual loading because that was paid. What we did was to ensure that workers retained their rights under industrial laws to take legal action for illegal pay rates. Yet the CFMEU then lied, shouting that One Nation stopped workers from getting what was theirs. No, we upheld miners' rights to pay and entitlements while at the same time protecting small business from being forced to pay casual loading twice, as some union bosses dishonestly demanded. It was the union that signed up on these enterprise agreements that robbed workers of 40 per cent of their pay. The Hunter CFMEU pocketed union dues from labour hire casuals and money from labour hire employers for dodgy enterprise agreements with low pay rates. It was the Hunter CFMEU that jointly directed coal long-service leave funds that under-accrued and avoided paying employer contributions to labour hire casuals. I exposed that, and a government review later confirmed me as correct. It was originally a Hunter CFMEU owned labour hire company that collected fees from the mines for supplying labour under a labour hire contract. The CFMEU is clearly directing labour to protect their nice little earner, even at the expense of the workers that the Hunter CFMEU supposedly pretends to represent, while hypocritically and deceitfully speaking badly of casual employment and workers.</para>
<para>The committee report accurately describes the effects on communities of the reduction in local spending due to taking wages out of the community. I was lucky enough to find a lawyer who drew these agreements up on behalf of Hunter labour hire companies and who has since seen the error of his ways. His advice informed my bill. Many exploited workers contributed to my bill. I have the most knowledgeable legal minds on labour hire contracts in the coal industry contributing to my bill, and I have generations of personal experience in the coal industry. What confuses my critics is that I'm not lining the IR club pockets with overly complex wishy-washy nonsense that opens more loopholes than it closes, as Labor's short-lived dog's breakfast did.</para>
<para>My bill will fix this mess. My bill sets an additional provision for Fair Work Australia to require an enterprise agreement to pass before being approved. It allows an employee to appeal an existing enterprise agreement to Fair Work if an enterprise agreement breaches this new provision. The provision is simple: a worker on a labour hire contract must be paid the same rate of pay, including allowances, as a worker who is directly employed doing the same job on the same shift roster. That is clear. If the whole crew is labour hire, then the commissioner must make a judgement on what the rate of pay should have been based on historical information and a comparison with similar mines in similar conditions. That is clear. The cost of using labour hire contractors will now fall on the employer rather than the worker. The intention is to require the employer to project their labour requirements, employ, train and nurture their people—like employers used to.</para>
<para>One complication is that some workers are on day shift and others on rotating shift. My bill takes that into consideration. Clause 3(b) of the bill expressly provides that the roster the employee is working must be considered in the assessment of equal pay for equal work. The committee report correctly identifies when labour hire contracts subvert the black coal mining industry award 2010 and the aircraft cabin crew award 2020. I've circulated an amendment to this bill to include the airline operations ground staff award 2020 which makes provisions for casuals that foreign companies bypass to exploit workers through labour hire contracts. I know Senator Sheldon is leading a fight against that exploitation. My bill will give him the ammunition to drag the whole situation back to Fair Work. I urge Senator Sheldon and Labor to adopt it.</para>
<para>My bill's simplicity will prevent lawyers feasting because it allows Fair Work commissioners discretion to make value judgements. I reckon they're up to it. The remaining awards are excluded in the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 as a line in the sand. While labour hire agreements are not being abused in these industries, explicitly including those awards in this legislation was designed to ensure labour hire firms do not treat these awards as a new profit centre once the opportunity for exploitation is removed from coalmining and aircraft operations.</para>
<para>Witnesses who discussed their treatment under labour hire contracts were pleased to have the opportunity to publicly testify, and I thank the committee. These workers were not always afforded that opportunity. Stuart Bonds, from the Hunter, listed case after case after case where miners have been employed under labour hire agreements with a 40 per cent reduction in pay rate. More troubling were the stories of exploitation and victimisation these workers received, especially following a safety report or physical harm.</para>
<para>Simon Turner testified to the committee on his inhumane experiences as an injured worker. He's one of many, sadly. Workers like Simon tried for years to get justice. The mine owner and the labour hire company completely ignored him—tossed him on the scrap heap. The Hunter CFMMEU betrayed workers. Local Labor MPs let them down. Only when workers came to One Nation was progress made.</para>
<para>Another worker on a labour hire contract saw a safety issue—water trucks laying down too much water, creating slippery conditions—and reported it. This worker was required to report that safety issue. Her contract was terminated the next week. There's no job security in labour hire contract arrangements. Workers injured at work were refused medical treatment and not paid workers compensation or accident pay as legally required. Workers were afraid of reporting safety issues for fear of being sacked.</para>
<para>Workers were rostered two years in advance to work 52 weeks of the year straight—no holidays. If you're working a full-time 12-hour shift and being given these shifts two years ahead then you're not casual. You are a permanent worker. Despite being, in effect, permanent these workers are unable to get home loans, car loans and provide a future for themselves and their families because banks won't lend to casual labour hire employees. When I say exploitation I mean exploitation!</para>
<para>All this happened with the Hunter CFMMEU doing deals enabling mining companies more interested in profits than basic human decency. Labour hire deals and contracts are used to lower wages across an entire industry. Qantas pulled this stunt on their ground crew. They fired thousands of workers and re-employed them through labour hire companies at the lowest rate of pay. What's a worker to do? Refuse the deal and have no job or take the deal and try to get by on 40 per cent less? Qantas are using these tricks on flight crew and pilots as well. Senator Sheldon can speak to this, so I won't. Correct loading on a plane is vital to flight safety and people on the ground.</para>
<para>In my meeting with Qantas, their executives defended their behaviour as being 'necessary to maintain viability'. Qantas have run their staff into the ground, cut staff pay to the bone, moved staff from full-time secure jobs to casual junk jobs, worked staff on shifts with not enough time to recover, provided insufficient training and supervision—and now things are going wrong. What a surprise! And they belted loyal, long-serving employees with COVID injection mandates. One Nation's Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 remains the only legislation before parliament designed to correct this unfair and dishonest corporate behaviour. It should have been in the government's Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022, but it's not. Yet it's not too late. Here it is.</para>
<para>I'll now discuss the specific topics in the committee report. Firstly, the bill does not act widely enough. My bill allows the minister to add more than the seven awards this bill currently covers by using a disallowable instrument where exploitation occurs. It allows the minister to remove that listing should an industry stop exploiting. This is surely best practice? Only act where there's a problem, and only for as long as the problem exists. Adding 700-plus awards 'just in case' will needlessly add to the cost and complexity of our industrial relations system.</para>
<para>Secondly, definitions of key concepts. The definitions enabled every submitter to correctly understand my bill's intent, yet some of them went on to say the definitions were incomplete after correctly identifying the meaning of the words used. The wording was chosen carefully because once a term is given a specific meaning, that meaning is considered the term's full meaning. Cunning lawyers use detailed definitions to limit a term's application. This allows for deficiencies in definitions to be exploited as loopholes. I will not play the industrial relations club's game. It's up to the Fair Work Commissioner to decide if a labour hire agreement falls under this bill's provisions. Should the Fair Work Commission fail to honour this legislation's intent, then and only then should we wander into the legal minefield of definitions that become exclusionary rather than inclusionary. It's time to start using clear language expressing clear principles and rely on the Fair work Commissioner to exercise their wisdom and knowledge and to follow these principles in their judgements.</para>
<para>My bill's intention and action: my bill provides a provision to existing provisions that enterprise agreements must pass to meet the Fair Work Commission's approval. This test is in section 321 of the Fair Work Act 2009 to show this equal pay for equal work provision is separate and additional to the better off overall test—the BOOT test. Section 321 is exactly where this provision belongs.</para>
<para>In conclusion, the supposed downside that some vested interests attribute in broad terms comes from the same entities who turned industrial relations into a club for their own profit and power at the workers' expense. These entities do very well from complexity. Workers pay the price in so many ways. This must stop. If the government is serious about equal pay for equal work, get on with it. I thank senators contributing to this debate and look forward to bringing the bill to a vote at the next opportunity.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Roberts for his contribution. I would make the observation that if Senator Roberts is serious about trying to improve industrial relations in this country and has some genuine comments and contribution to make, maybe the best way to start is sitting down with that terrific minister, the industrial relations minister, Minister Burke, and start working with him about how we might improve industrial relations in this country, and in particular how we might start the ball rolling on lifting wages so that workers have a chance to compete with rising prices that they see everywhere. Of course we know that it was a design feature of the former government, the former government which Senator Roberts supported over and over and over again, with all of their crazy policies that have led to the extremely difficult economic circumstances which Australian workers find themselves in. Maybe if Senator Roberts hadn't supported the former government as often and consistently and regularly as he did, Australian workers might actually be in a slightly better position.</para>
<para>Of course they're going to be in a lot better position when the new bill passes in the next couple of days, which is going to lift the standard of living of Australia workers and give them a chance to catch up with those rising prices. I see Senator Barbara Pocock in the room. When I first started working with the shop assistants' union in 1976 we still had different rates of pay for men and women. There would be one rate of pay for a man, which would appear on one side of the wage regulated documents. On one side of the page there would be a rate for the men, and on the other side of the page there would be a rate for a woman, for exactly the same job. In this country we had different rates of pay. It's hard to believe, and you have to go back a very long time to see that, but in wage determinations in this country there were differences between men and women.</para>
<para>Of course, we have quite a different concept of equal pay for equal work these days. We're not talking about the overt discrimination that existed in wage determinations in this country for most of the last century. We're talking about quite a different proposition, of course, and that proposition is that there are industries where women predominate and which, if they were fairly valued, would have a higher rate of pay. The reason that the rate of pay isn't higher is that they are predominantly female industries. That's the issue that the Labor Party is seeking to address and will address in the course of this parliament.</para>
<para>I will first talk about what the Labor Party is proposing to do to fix the problems that Senator Roberts claims that he's fixing in this bill—and again I make the offer to Senator Roberts: if you're fair dinkum about trying to lift the living standards of workers in this country, maybe the best way is to cooperate with a government that is also interested in doing that, sitting down and telling us how you think we might be able to advance the interests of working people in this country. I haven't seen any evidence in the whole of the time that you've been in this place, Senator Roberts, that you've been remotely interested in that issue. Every single decision that you took over the previous parliaments to back in the policies of this mob when they were in government did damage to the people you now say—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>He was the one who looked after mine workers.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, I sat quietly and listened to the drivel of the Senator Roberts for the last 15 minutes. I'd just appreciate the same courtesy.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, you will have a chance to speak on it, and I will sit quietly while you have your contribution, but the courtesy is that you should listen in silence, and I'm surprised the Deputy President didn't make that remark himself.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, I thought you were more than capable of handling the matter.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Oh, thank you.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're attacking everyone, Don!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Sen</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I didn't have a go at you, Senator! I'm talking about your government. I wasn't singling you out—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Here I am. Have a crack!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>although, now that you mention it, of course, just like Senator Roberts, you voted for every crazy policy that put pressure on working people in this country, and this Labor government is going to do something about it through our fair work bill.</para>
<para>We took a plan to the Australian people at the last election, and that plan was to announce a secure Australian jobs plan which contains a commitment to address getting the same pay for doing the same job. We were onto this issue way before Senator Roberts even dreamed it up, but not only that; we took a policy to the last election to deal with the issue. We had a plan for this very issue that Senator Roberts claims that he's got some interest in. Now, under the Secure Australian Jobs plan, the government committed to delivering more secure jobs, better pay and fairer workplace relations, including ensuring that labour hire workers and workers engaged in other non-standard arrangements such as outsourcing receive no less than directly engaged employees performing the same work. It's a very simple proposition that, if you're doing a job that's valued at a particular rate of pay under an award, agreement or some other instrument, if somebody else comes into your workplace to do the same job, that person should receive the same pay. It's a very, very simple proposition.</para>
<para>Under the previous government, abuses occurred and, even though the government was aware of it and the industrial relations minister was aware of it, nothing was done about it. We recognised the problem, we took a proposal to the Australian people at the last election, and we were elected to government. I would say this, Acting Deputy President—and I know you know a lot about these sorts of issues—we have a mandate to fix this problem. Not only do we have a mandate to fix this problem; we are going to fix this problem.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Acting Deputy President. They keep attacking me, particularly from that end, up there.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order at the other end too!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We have a mandate. I've just seen Senator Sheldon come into the Senate. He spent a lifetime trying to resolve some of these issues, because he saw firsthand how unfair it is in a workplace where one group of workers, no doubt having the benefit of a union-negotiated agreement, which the fantastic Transport Workers Union would have negotiated for them, and then a whole lot of other workers come in on a lower rate of pay. We're going to do something about this. As I mentioned, Minister Burke is on the job. He's been doing nothing else since he came into this job six months ago but trying to fix the problem and create a fairer workplace.</para>
<para>Currently, under the Fair Work Act—and some people could describe it currently as the 'Unfair Work Act'—a labour hire employee and a directly employed employee may be engaged under different industrial instruments. As Senator Urquhart would know, that's code for a lower rate of pay for somebody coming in as a labour hire employee. I'm sure that over her wonderful career she would have dealt with these types of problems and, my guess is, successfully sorted them out. But you can't sort them out everywhere. You need industrial relations legislation to do that, and that's what the Labor Party is about. In those circumstances, we've seen workers doing the same job, undertaking the same work, on a vastly different set of wages and conditions. Not only is that unfair; it also creates tensions in the workplace. If people are doing the same job and they're on a different set of terms and conditions, naturally, those people will be dissatisfied.</para>
<para>The government acknowledges that there may be, from time to time, legitimate uses for labour hire, such as instances where employees use labour hire to provide surge capacity or important expertise that is not available within its own workforce. So we're not saying ban all labour hire. But the proposition is that, if you're doing the same job, you should be getting the same rate of pay.</para>
<para>Because of all those distractions, I've not had a chance to address some of the provisions in this bill. I want to do that in the remaining time I have. This bill is targeted at prospective contracts or arrangements entered into by the employer, namely the labour hire employer, with another person, described as the host employer, for a labour hire employee for the labour hire employer to perform work for the host employer.</para>
<para>The first observation the government would make about this proposed legislation is that there is a lack of clarity and practicality regarding the application of equal pay obligations. These include obligations that apply from day one and do not address situations where, for example, a labour hire employee is moving from host to host, and there is only one civil remedy provision, which is drafted in a manner that is not consistent with the way underpayments are ordinarily dealt with under the Fair Work Act. So it's introducing a whole lot of new concepts which are not consistent with the way a worker would ordinarily expect to prosecute a case if they felt they had been disadvantaged as a result of provisions in their workplace. This is likely to lead to ambiguity, and the bill could give rise to unintended consequences if legislated in this current form.</para>
<para>Again, I make the offer to Senator Roberts: if you are fair dinkum about trying to resolve some of these issues at the workplace, come and sit down at the minister and his staff, and let's start correcting all those issues that arose under the life of the previous government.</para>
<para>The bill is targeted only at labour hire in specific sectors based on award coverage, namely—the Black Coal Mining Industry Award, the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award, the Firefighting Industry Award, the Maritime Offshore Oil and Gas Award, the Seagoing Industry Award, the Australian Nuclear Science and Technology Organisation Enterprise Award, and there is a provision for the minister to add more via a legislative instrument. The bill does not deal with outsourcing or any other arrangements.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is my honour to rise and speak on the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill and follow Senator Farrell and Senator Roberts before him. It's interesting listening to is Senator Farrell, who I respect and admire in this place, would you believe, Senator Farrell? He's a thoroughly decent person, Senator Farrell. I always enjoy listening to his contributions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wouldn't mind that wine, yes, thank you! I'm deputy chair of the Education and Employment Committee with Senator Sheldon as chair. I want to just say before I make my remarks that I always respect and admire the way that Senator Roberts brings issues to this place and the way that on this inquiry he sincerely brought forward the issues that this bill contends with. I really admire and respect him and I appreciated his contribution, his passion and his commitment to this issue and, indeed, to the workers in that industry. As author and key contributor to the additional comments that were put into the report, while we indicated that we don't support this bill—at least the make-up of it, the particular provisions and how it's been put together—I wanted to say that I very much respect Senator Roberts' long standing connection and commitment to this issue and, indeed, particularly to those working in the black coalmining industry. Senator Roberts worked as an underground worker in the coalmining industry, so he does have firsthand experience and, obviously, through that, he has a very deep connection to not just the issue but, indeed, the people who are connected with it. The witnesses he was able to arrange to come before the committee clearly had a lot of respect for Senator Roberts and they came and presented very passionately their issues. I really appreciated that and appreciated being able to sit, listen and inquire of them.</para>
<para>This bill does primarily focus on the Black Coal Mining Industry Award and the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2020, as well as four other awards that currently do not have provisions for casual employment. The coalition does believe that this bill, erroneously, seeks a one-size-fits-all approach. It overlooks the nuances of the labour hire industry. It will have unintended consequences and ignores some of the really important fundamentals, including the desire by some workers to have flexibility and other benefits afforded to them by being labour hire employees. Before coming into this place, I was running an organisation called Generation One, which is an Aboriginal employment agency. Through that organisation, we saw tens of thousands of long-term unemployed Aboriginal people take up training that led to a guaranteed job. It's something that I'm very, very proud of. I hope I can have a similar sort of impact in this place. When I look at the work that I did there through the excellent team that we had there and across the country, it's something I'm very proud of.</para>
<para>We worked a lot with labour hire businesses in creating those opportunities. Sometimes, in this debate, there's a real denigration of labour hire, but it does have a place. It particularly has a place for those who have been unemployed for a long time and who might have significant and multiple barriers to employment. In terms of being able to step out of long-term unemployment and establish a pattern of work, sometimes labour hire provides a unique and flexible environment that enables them to make that transition from having no work and no pattern of work to picking up some casual work, perhaps starting part time or on reduced hours and building their capacity over time. So our organisation was able to use labour hire. We worked with many different businesses—and some of them were subject to this inquiry—that were able to provide a stepping stone for people who had been long-term unemployed with low skills but who, through that transitional intermediary role that labour hire was able to play, were able to transition into longer term sustainable full-time work. So I think it's really important that there is a bit of balance in this debate—a balance that, I know, Senator Roberts did bring into it. We've got to be careful that labour hire isn't denigrated. I respect Senator Farrell's comments that there is a place for labour hire. There is definitely a place for labour hire. I join the concern that it might displace permanent jobs, but there is a place for it and I think we've got to be careful we don't denigrate it.</para>
<para>The Australian coal industry has played a significant role in the modern prosperity of this country and in our economy. Like other sectors of the mining industry, it has provided numerous employment opportunities and benefited regional communities across Australia. The coalmining industry employs around 50,000 workers across Australia with another 120,000 indirect jobs supported by the industry. As a valuable commodity, coal is Australia's second-largest export after iron ore—which is primarily coming out of my home state of Western Australia—and accounts for approximately 11.5 per cent of Australia's total exports. As well as being a strong economic driver and an export commodity, coal is an affordable, reliable source of electricity. While there are detractors of coal in this place, I'm not one to diminish and disrespect the valuable role that coal plays within our industries and our economy and the wealth that it creates. Without doubt, the coal industry has played a pivotal, influential part of the narrative of the Australian success story.</para>
<para>Regarding the role of labour hire, I do respect that there are significantly diverse views on this matter. As I've said, I don't, however, share the sentiments espoused by some who have sought to demonise the vital function played by the labour hire industry. For many businesses—particularly when it comes to shutdown work in the mining sector, when you need a surge capacity or you need to bring in a temporary workforce that can move in and move out—labour hire obviously plays a critical role.</para>
<para>Contrary to representations made in relation to labour hire and proportion of the broader workforce, the current use of labour hire in the Australian workplace is not considered at epidemic level. In fact it's only one per cent of the Australian workforce that are employed within labour hire firms. This proportion is lower than it has ever been, or at least in the last 10 years. In their submission to the EEC, the Australian Industry Group stated that a policy such as equal pay for equal work is unfair, inappropriate and unworkable. Additionally, the AIG contends that the bill does not sufficiently define what a labour hire employer is or what a labour hire employee is, resulting in some businesses inadvertently being caught up by the provisions of this bill.</para>
<para>In the remaining moment I have in this debate I want to pick up on a couple of things that Senator Farrell said. In discussing the government's plans in this area, the government's plans around the fair work bill and the amendments, he said that they have a mandate to do some of the things that they said that they are going to do, that no doubt we'll be debating later today. I find it really interesting that Senator Farrell says that there is that mandate and it was something that they took to the Australian people and got support from the Australian people for it. Granted they did say it was part of their slogan throughout their campaign that they will get wages moving, and lines like that, talking points like that. I absolutely give you that. Australians clearly supported the government. You won; we don't deny that. It's disappointing. I'm disappointed by that result, but it happened and we're living with it right now.</para>
<para>But Labor senators can't say that they have a mandate for the particular provisions of this bill when they actually ruled it out. Mr Chalmers, the now Treasurer, when he was in opposition, when he was the shadow treasurer ahead of the election, was asked in the <inline font-style="italic">Insiders</inline> program back in November whether or not industrywide bargaining was part of the government's plan. He categorically ruled it out. He said 'We have no plan for that.' Maybe they're just weasel words that members of parliament are very adept at using sometimes. 'We have no plans for this.' Maybe the shadow treasurer, as he was at the time, wasn't in the loop with the government's industrial relations agenda, because he didn't quite know what the then opposition would do if they were to form government and bring in such wide-ranging significant changes to the industrial relations landscape. Or maybe he actually knew that it would be catastrophic to the economy if such a change was brought in. Because he said that they had no plan.</para>
<para>I wish they had stuck to that, because the plans that the government actually had to change the landscape of the industrial relations system are so significant. Bringing in multi-employer bargaining and allowing for anticompetitive natures to be brought into the bargaining system is going to be incredibly troubling to the Australian economy. For example, you've got a situation where you could have Coles and Woolworths having to bargain together in a shopping centre and then rope in all the other smaller retailers that are in that shopping centre, even though those businesses may not have the HR departments, the in-house counsel, the legal advice readily available to them in the same way that a big company like a Coles or a Woolworths might have. These companies could easily be roped in. I see there are some changes to the thresholds that might allow businesses to be excluded—lifting from 15 to 20—but you're not actually a very big business to have 20 employees. All you need to have is a regular pattern of work to be included, so casuals can easily be included. So you can see situations where businesses are going to be caught up in this.</para>
<para>The government don't actually have a mandate on their proposals. They don't have the mandate. Yes, we want to see wages moving. Of course we do. Everyone does. But we can't create a situation where we're actually going to lose jobs. It's better to have a job than not to have one. Your wages are only going to go one way if you've lost your job, and of course that's going to have a devastating impact.</para>
<para>But back to this bill. I again commend Senator Roberts for his commitment and his approach. I look forward to continuing to work with him to find solutions to this problem. Unfortunately, what that lot over there have devised is not the answer. It's not actually going to bring the results that I know you're looking for, Senator Roberts—through you, Chair. But I really hope that we can get ourselves into a position where we can move things. Obviously, what's happening here with this government is going to set us back a long way, but we're going to have to work hard together to bring about sensible ideas and proposals that could really shake things up and shift things around. With that, I thank the Senate for the time and I thank Senator Roberts again for his commitment to this issue.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senat</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>or SHELDON () (): I will start off by just thanking all the committee members who considered Senator Roberts's bill, the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022, because it was a collegiate group talking through the pros and cons of the intentions of the bill. There are a number of us on the committee who have a serious concern about what's happening in this country with regard to the misuse of labour hire—not the essence of labour hire, because labour hire does appropriately have a place in the Australian economic market, but not as a means of decreasing wages and ripping people off. All of those discussions—and I include our deputy chair in this—were honest, open and frank discussions, and we also had the questioning of a number of witnesses. I am pleased to say that the Minerals Council of Australia turned up. They were a little bit displeased by having to appear before the Senate inquiry, considering that the mining industry are among the greatest abusers of the use of labour hire, and I'll go to some of those points in a moment.</para>
<para>But one of the things I find particularly disturbing from the opposition is that they haven't changed their tune, because they think there isn't a problem. In fact, when we started raising the issue of 'same job, same pay' many, many years ago, including through the Senate Select Committee on Job Security inquiry, they actually said that job insecurity and the abuse of labour hire in the Australian workforce was a made-up issue. They just can't get their minds around the fact that they have to hold to account those people in our economy who are exploiting Australian workers. So they decided, 'We'll just pretend it doesn't even exist; that way we don't have to pretend that we're taking any side,' whilst they were actually taking the side of big corporations that have been abusing labour hire.</para>
<para>I note some of the statistics that came out of that Senate Select Committee on Job Security inquiry. For example, the number of labour hire jobs in Australia has increased from 540,622 in 2013 to 797,710 in 2019, a 48 per cent increase in six years. The Queensland Coal Mining Board of Inquiry reported that in 1996 94.1 per cent of Queensland coalmine workers were directly employed. Today, just 50 per cent are, with the remainder being labour hire or contractors. BHP confirmed to the Senate Select Committee on Job Security that across their nationwide coal operations—get this—just 29.11 per cent of their staff are BHP employees. The rest are labour hire or contractors.</para>
<para>During the inquiry into this bill, there was also evidence given by Qantas in response to questions on notice that the Qantas Group has 17 subsidiaries that act as employing entities just for some of the areas such as cabin crew; tech crew; engineering; 'below the wing', which is ground handling; fleet presentation and catering; freight; and other frontline roles, which are described as 'above the wing', at airports. They had 21 external companies that they engaged, all in an attempt to artificially break up the bargaining process and the bargaining position of workers—gaming the system. Of course, we'll hear later today what we've heard now from the opposition that this is a made-up issue. We will hear that everything is fine and we don't need to change the IR legislation because—don't worry—Qantas have got the answer. They know how to drive wages down by not following 'same job, same pay' and by gaming the system.</para>
<para>The important thing about the intent of this bill was to look at some of those aspects in some of those industries that it could address. The committee did come to a view that there were some challenges in the bill and that the bill requires, and this question requires, further consultation. But, again, before I get into that, I think we should also make it clear that this isn't just about aviation workers and mine workers; it's other industries. In evidence given during the inquiry into job security over those 18 months in 2021 and before, a meat worker, Matt Journeaux, from the Australasian Meat Industry Employees Union, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At ACC there was a worker on labour hire working beside another worker, and there was a $500-a-week difference. We see labour hire companies not even paying the award in a lot of instances. Even if they do pay the award, typically our agreements would be 20 per cent or 30 per cent higher than the award, so those workers, even if they did receive the award rates of pay, would be on 20 per cent to 30 per cent less than what the local worker would be receiving.</para></quote>
<para>This included, of course, the Public Service. There 'wasn't a problem'—the government at the time, the now opposition, were very happy that there was no problem, because they were also paying labour hire workers substantially less than what was being paid to direct hire workers. Rather than giving people a career path and building our Public Service, they just treated labour hire as a cheap form of labour. Hardworking Australians doing their bit for the country were paid by our own government, the opposition now, substantially less.</para>
<para>A labour hire worker from the NDIA said: 'In my office, planners, despite doing the same job, were paid differently. When negotiations for contracts happened, we found out that other staff were being paid up to $10 more per hour. Pay for staff performing exactly the same role is often disparate, and many labour hire agencies prohibit their employees from discussing their pay, making it difficult to ask for parity.' That's one of the reasons why the government now has made it clear that misuse of labour hire is one of the direct policy changes that we're taking action on as we speak.</para>
<para>Nick Thackray is a labour hire worker at the Australian Maritime Safety Authority—another example of misuse of labour hire for an area of expertise critical to maintain, within our national maritime safety. You'd think you would want to make sure that those people belonged and felt connected, but, no, the government at the time, now opposition, didn't give those workers one iota of concern because, don't forget, it was a 'made-up issue'—remember that continual parody from the now opposition, then in government? Nick Thackray from AMSA said in August 2021:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Obviously there's the difference in pay, but then we don't get sick leave, we don't get miscellaneous leave, we don't get carers leave and we don't get things like domestic violence leave. Or if somebody close to you dies, there's no leave like that. So essentially every day, depending on what's happening in your life, you make the choice, 'Am I going to get paid today?'—compared with what else is happening in your life.</para></quote>
<para>As far as the opposition are concerned, these are made-up issues.</para>
<para>The committee went through the issues that were raised in the inquiry into this bill:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The increased use of labour hire, without particular reference to jobs performed or the duration of employment, appear to have blurred the distinction between labour hire employees and those permanently engaged by the host employer. Indeed, it may also be contributing to the underreporting of labour hire employee numbers, with many workers who have been persistently employed by labour hire firms identifying as employees of an industry, rather than a labour hire firm.</para></quote>
<para>After those substantial statistics about the massive increase in labour hire, it also says there is a very strong belief that there is an under-reporting of labour hire within the country. Of course, the committee supports the broad aim of the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022 and ensuring that a labour-hire worker doing the same job as a directly engaged employee receives the same rate of pay, but the committee did recognise that any legislative response must be effective and operate as intended and that this requires further consideration. The committee also acknowledged the significant misgivings expressed by most inquiry participants about the limited scope of the bill and the lack of clarity concerning its key provisions and definitions. Whilst I go to some of the details and concerns about the bill—not the objective of the bill but the details of the bill—I also take into account the concerns that are raised again by those in the community. These aren't made-up people. These are real people giving real evidence. Anne Baker, Mayor of Isaac Regional Council, and Kelly Vea Vea, Deputy Mayor of Isaac Regional Council, said casual labour has always traditionally been engaged in the mining industry but usually for things like shutdown work and construction of new developments. No-one is saying it's not a new concept. What with have seen absolutely in the last 10 years is a huge increase. We've never expected to see casual jobs actually being put in place of permanent jobs. We have seen permanent jobs being made redundant and being replaced with casual labour. That's just something that we've witnessed over the last 10 years. It's not a made up issue. It's an issue of a great deal of concern.</para>
<para>This is why it was so important for the discussion on the bill to take place in the hearings with all those participating members who played a role in the consideration of this bill. Several stakeholders commented on the limited scope of the bill—for example, the ACTU was concerned that businesses could move employees onto contracting arrangements to remove the risk of being covered by the provisions of the bill. It argued that the labour-hire sector will no doubt swiftly evolve language in its contracts to move any employees onto contracting arrangements to greatly limit the risk of ever being captured by the terms of the bill.</para>
<para>I might pause there for a moment. One of the things that's also critically important—and the government has foreshadowed this—is dealing with gig workers. Regulation of one part of the labour market also requires regulation of the other part of the labour market: the gig economy. Then we will see individual contracting where it's inappropriate as way of avoiding responsibility. I think that, over the last three and a half years, many in in place and many outside will have found that I'm a strong supporter of contract labour and the rights of contract labour. This is not about contractors not existing; this is about mechanisms being used to turn around gig work to go to the lowest common denominator. I don't mean the workers are the lowest common denominator; I mean their pay is being used and abused.</para>
<para>Quite often it's not often the company that directly employs—though sometimes it is—but the company right at the top, which I describe as the economic employer, that makes economic demands for those companies down their supply chain to keep taking a section off by ratcheting down wages and conditions. Quite often, safety arrangements lost are lost in parallel. The Australian Nursing and Midwifery Federation noted this would be particularly relevant to carers and nurses working in aged care, who have historically had lower wages than their public and private acute counterparts. The ANMF also expressed significant concerns about the use of digital platforms and independent contractors in the aged-care sector.</para>
<para>Similarly, the employer association for labour hire, the RCSA, warned that some businesses would find ways to circumvent any regulations. The RCSA, the employer group, argued that 'any equal-pay-for-equal-work scheme must consider how it can be applied across all forms of market activity relating to the provision of labour, not just to labour hire structures'. It noted that any regulation 'needs to adequately address the activity and behaviour, not the structure, if it is to have any real impact'.</para>
<para>Again, while I support the concept of this bill, and it's important that the government continues to have conversations about same job, same pay, it also has to be run in parallel with what we do with the gig economy, because that means we actually are properly giving people minimum standards.</para>
<para>Some stakeholders were also concerned about the limited number of modern awards that would initially be covered by the bill. For example, Maurice Blackburn Lawyers argued that the bill offers no protection to workers in parts of the economy where labour hire arrangements are common, including construction, transport, hospitality, cleaning, and aged-care and disability-care services.</para>
<para>In contrast to the concerns about the bill's limited scope, some industry stakeholders raised concerns about the breadth of the proposed requirement for labour hire companies to provide additional payments based on the employee base rate of pay, including incentive allowances, such as overtime, penalty rates and other identifiable amounts. I think it would join many of us—other than the opposition—so we have a very clear position, and I think the intention of Senator Roberts's bill is to encompass those sorts of allowances to make sure that it is same job, same pay. I think there are a number of us in this chamber, including Senator Roberts, who see the importance of those issues being dealt with. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too thank Senator Roberts for bringing forward this bill, the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill 2022. I know that this has been an issue that Senator Roberts has spent a lot of time working on. When I was on the Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee in the last parliament, I have to commend Senator Roberts for his tenacious questioning of the departments and the agencies that came before us. It was specifically to address—based on what he saw and the advice he got—certain inequalities in some of the awards, particularly the Black Coal Mining Industry Award. I note his interest in superannuation as well. I also note Senator Sheldon's true commitment to same job, same pay, and his ongoing commitment to addressing issues in the gig economy. So I thank Senator Sheldon for his contribution today, too.</para>
<para>I think the key issue is that this bill seeks a one-size-fits-all approach which overlooks the nuances in our labour hire industry that Senator Sheldon himself said has a place in our economy and a significant place in our workforce. We coalition senators note the work of the Senate Select Committee on Job Security and its establishment to inquire into this issue specifically and into the impact of insecure, precarious employment on the economy, wages, social cohesion, and workplace rights and conditions. That was a very wide ranging committee process. I thank everyone who participated in the committee for the comprehensive report that was raised.</para>
<para>There is one thing that I really want to focus on as I address the bill that is before us. While the bill in its current form is specifically applicable to labour hire employees under the Black Coal Mining Industry Award 2020 and the Aircraft Cabin Crew Award 2020, as well as four other awards that currently don't have provisions for casual employment, it also allows the minister to add awards by disallowable instrument as he sees fit. There was a whole chapter in the committee report dedicated to workforce arrangements in agriculture, and I want to focus on that. If this bill goes through as it is, it sets a precedent for a future minister to look at where else labour hire plays a significant role in meeting the needs of that workforce. Agriculture is one of those, as identified in the committee's own report.</para>
<para>The committee heard about the increasing prevalence of labour hire in agricultural industries, specifically in the horticulture and the meat processing industries, which are inherently seasonal in their practice and inherently short term in their labour hire needs. I know blueberry growers who have full-time staff of about five, but during their harvest season—which can come on very rapidly, depending on weather conditions—they can have a call overnight and a need for employing up to 50 people on their farm to help them meet their harvest. You can't just fill those gaps through a SEEK ad or through an ad in the classifieds of the local paper—particularly as we thankfully have an Australian unemployment figure of 3 per cent, which is great news; that means there aren't that many Australians running around seeking employment. But these farmers and meat processors have developed agreements with labour hire companies who have, on their books, a large availability of workforce, and they play a significant role in helping us get the fruit and nuts off the trees, the vegetables off the ground and the meat into the packages.</para>
<para>In 2019 the committee heard that up to 56 per cent of labour carried out in those two industries alone—horticulture and meat processing—was carried out by contractors or other business operators such as labour hire companies. I want to remind people that horticulture is a $15-billion-a-year industry and meat processing is about $17 billion a year. These are not small parts of our economy; they're quite significant.</para>
<para>The Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry website shows that, in 2021-22, 60,000 to 70,000 people employed in horticulture alone were employed on a contract of some form. Some of these contracts are provided through our Pacific Australian Labour Mobility Scheme, which is a highly successful scheme. It is a two-way diplomatic relationship between Australia and those Pacific nations, with the communities from which that labour has come and the economic support they provide back to their families and their communities. Just yesterday I met with a group of young people from the Pacific Australian Emerging Leaders Summit, run by Micah Australia and the Pacific Conference of Churches. One of those young people was Remwatia Nokite, from Kiribati, and her key message to me was to thank Australia for making provisions under the Pacific Australia Labour Mobility Scheme that her family participates in that provides not only the economic security but also the opportunity for her family members, when they come here, to learn skills that they can then take home and apply when they go home. This is a scheme through which a lot of those visa holders come to us, or come to the end employer, through a labour hire company. My concern with this bill in its current format is it leaves the door open for uncertainty in the labour hire economy.</para>
<para>I also want to raise the issue that, yes, while labour hire is a significant portion of our economy and it plays a strong role in our economy, contrary to some representations we've made in relation to labour hire and the broader workforce it is not at epidemic levels. According to the submission to the committee from the Australian Industry Group, only 1.1 per cent of the workforce is employed by a labour hire firm and this proportion is perhaps lower than it has been over the last 10 years. My point is that labour hire employees fill essential needs gaps across industries, including in the black coal industry, that meet market demand within the workforce.</para>
<para>The other key point I want to make is that there are some employees who actively seek to be employed under a labour hire agreement because it provides them more flexibility than if they were employed under a full-term contract. So we need to ensure that we're not accidentally curtailing the rights of people to be employed under an arrangement that suits them and their families' needs. I do agree that Senator Roberts has seen an area that needs to be addressed, but this is not the solution.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Roberts for his—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Senator Pocock, the time for debate has expired.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No way!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My apologies, Senator Pocock.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>12</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
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            <a href="r6941" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022</span>
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        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>12</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock, yes! This happened to me last night, and I rise in continuance on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. This is a bill that will deliver secure jobs and better pay for Australians. It's a bill that puts respect for women workers at the heart of our workplace laws. It's a bill that makes better wages a deliberate design feature of our government's agenda.</para>
<para>This bill is urgent, because working Australians deserve a better life right now. After 10 years of low wages as a design feature of economic policy of the previous government, we've seen a race to the bottom on wages and conditions across some of our most essential sectors, many of which are now facing unprecedented workforce shortages. These workers simply cannot afford to wait any longer, like early childhood educator Kylie Gray who told me that if her wages don't improve soon she will have to leave the sector that she loves after 15 years simply because she is losing hope and she can't afford to say. There are workers like security officer Pete Watkins, who has seen his wages fall over the past 10 years from seven per cent above the award back down to the award, all because security officers can't negotiate to protect wages across multiple employers today and they get undercut by dodgy security operators. Workers like Sheree Clark can't wait a day longer. She's been living in a caravan park, waiting for secure hours in her part-time contract in aged care—one of Australia's most essential sectors. She is waiting for secure hours so she can improve her income and sign a lease on a house. This is not how we should be treating our essential workers in Australia today. These workers can't afford to wait another day, let alone another 10 years, to see real change in their working lives.</para>
<para>Our current industrial relations system is broken and outdated. It's based on an economy that doesn't exist anymore. It's based on an economy that looked very different from today, and it's a system that is no longer delivering for employers or for employees. It's a system that locks out thousands of workers from the benefits of bargaining. All work is valuable, and every worker deserves a chance to have a seat at the table where they can be heard, where their experience and expertise are recognised, and where their work is valued. What this bill isn't about is conflict. This is actually about balance and it's about respect. It's about respect for the voice of working Australians, like the essential workers I just spoke about. It's also about respect for the needs of business. This bill is about getting the balance right to build a strong and fair economy that benefits everyone.</para>
<para>Just six months ago, we promised the people of Australia that if they elected Albanese Labor government we would get wages moving and we would deliver secure jobs. That's because we know that good, secure jobs mean better lives. We know that after 10 years of falling wages we can't afford wait another day. I'm proud that today we are getting on with the job: fixing a broken system, getting wages moving and delivering on our promise to deliver a better, brighter future based on good, secure jobs for all Australians. Thank you.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm speaking on a bill called the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022, but I reckon it should be renamed the 'Let's Give Union Bosses a Return On Their Investment in the Labor Party Bill 2022'. In terms of this new National Anti-Corruption Commission that has come into being, I wonder whether we're going to see a referral to the National Anti-Corruption Commission in relation to the relationship between the unions and the Labor Party. This bill actually isn't about higher wages, which we all support. This bill is about the Labor Party government giving a return on the investment that was put into the election of a Labor Party government by the unions. That is what this bill is all about. It is an acknowledgement that the Labor Party, which is defunct on the ground, won the election due to the campaigning strengths of the union movement as a political and campaigning movement. For that, the Labor Party has to return a favour to the union bosses, and that's what this bill is all about. It is about empowering union bosses. It's about empowering union thugs to go into small businesses across Australia and intimidate business owners, intimidate workers and threaten them, because that is the business model of the union movement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And that's what John Setka confirmed.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And that, as my colleague Senator Henderson has confirmed with her helpful contribution, is what John Setka, the thug of all thugs, has confirmed—we talk about first among equals; he is the thug among equals, the first thug I suppose—in relation to what he wants to see out of this Labor Government, and that is a return on his investment.</para>
<para>This is not for the interest of Australians. This is not for the interest of business owners and those who run businesses. This is all about the union movement. That is sad. Look at what is facing Australia at the moment. We are looking at a growing unemployment rate. We are looking at a growing inflation rate. We are looking at mortgage rates going up. This has all happened since May, by the way, for those who may be listening. It's all happened since the election of this Labor government because we all know that Labor will always cost you more. Labor is effectively bringing in a de facto federal payroll tax, because what it is saying to small businesses across Australia is that they have to pay anywhere between $14,000 or $15,000 and $80,000 to participate in relation to the provisions under this bill.</para>
<para>What the Rhodes scholars opposite don't realise is that when you're a small-business owner you depend on the income from selling goods and services, but you also have your costs. If your costs are going to go up in one of your columns—for example, suddenly you've got to pay $70,000 or $80,000 to participate in negotiating wages and salaries for your employees because you're compelled to because you have union thugs on your doorstep—that means you actually, irony upon ironies, which the Rhodes scholar runners up over there don't realise, won't be able to afford to give people the pay rises that you want to give to them.</para>
<para>The money will go into this great big black pot, this vortex. But the people who the left claim they want to stand up for and claim to represent are actually going to lose out under the provisions of this bill. It is very sad that the Mensa society members over there don't realise that because, and I cannot emphasise this enough, this is not about giving Australians higher wages and higher salaries. This bill is not about that. This bill is about empowering the union movement.</para>
<para>When you look at what has happened to the union movement in Queensland and Australia—I am a senator from Queensland—the Labor Party came out of the shearers' strike in western Queensland in the 1890s. You sometimes wonder what those genuine workers, those shearers, who wanted to have a political movement, would think about when they look at the modern Labor Party. Would they go: 'Really? Is this the movement that is supposed to represent working Australians today?' Of course it doesn't, because the Labor Party and the union movement's support for working-class Australians has disintegrated. They've been captured by the wokers. They've been captured by the trendy-dendies who like to live in the city and like to ride their bikes everywhere and claim to be all for public transport. They fail to understand that the reason that union membership in Australia has declined over the last 30 or 40 years from the 50, 60, 70 per cent of Australians who used to be members of unions is the failure of the union movement to stand up for working Australians.</para>
<para>I heard my colleague say earlier today that the union membership at the moment is at about 14 per cent of the workforce. I actually thought it was a little bit lower. I think that within the private sector it's about 10 per cent. I think the 14 per cent takes into account those who are in the public sector. In the private sector—in small businesses, in medium businesses and in large businesses—only one in 10 Australians are members of a union. The other way of putting it is that 90 per cent of working Australians are not members of a union, yet we have this bill in front of us which is all about empowering union bosses and trying to arrest the decline of union membership. It's all about trying to ensure that union bosses can turn up on a small business's doorstep and force, threaten, cajole and bully workers to try and join a union. It is sad that one of the so-called key accomplishments of this government, in the six months that they've been in power, is going to be a bill that actually does nothing to increase the salaries and wages of working Australians, but instead increases the power of the union bosses.</para>
<para>You should always look at what people say and then what they do. What is interesting is that when the Labor Party went to the election, this was very much a secret deal between the union movement and the Labor Party. Why I say that is that no-one knew about it. This was a secret deal that was locked away. It was clearly nutted out and probably signed with a handshake. I don't know, perhaps it was a spit in the hand type of handshake or a wink across the room between the Prime Minister and the union bosses to say that if you help us get elected we will repay the favour. We will repay the favour by bringing in pieces of legislation that will help the union movement.</para>
<para>My opening comments about the National Anti-Corruption Commission weren't said in jest. They were actually quite serious. If there was a secret deal between the Labor Party and the union movement—in terms of cash for policy, campaign funds for policy, campaign funds for legislation—it's something that we should know. It is something that should have been put on the table before the election. It wasn't. It was secret. Therefore, what else is in this deal between the Labor Party and the union movement? What else is there?</para>
<para>We can talk about what the Labor Party are going to do, for example, in relation to electoral reform. We all know that the Labor Party depend on the union movement, so they're going to bring forward reforms that will put a cap on expenditure. They are gong to bring in a financial gerrymander—the Queensland model. They'll bring that in here federally. It will effectively remove the fairness that exists between political parties at a federal level, between those on the Left and the Right, and ensure that there is a financial gerrymander that favours the parties on the Left. You can only look at Queensland where political parties are capped at $15 million each for their electoral expenditure but unions are capped at $10 million. There are 26 unions in Queensland. Twenty-six times 10 is 260. So unions can spend $260 million in an election in Queensland, plus the Labor Party's $15 million. The LNP, my party, the party of the grassroots, will be out spent 20 to one. That is not fair. Whatever your views may be of the left and right of politics, we should all believe that there should be a fairness between the left and the right in terms of how they participate or are stopped from participating, how they are encouraged to participate in Australia's democracy.</para>
<para>What we are seeing here is what happened in Queensland, the financial gerrymander that effectively locks the LNP out, is that Labor through this bill is ensuring that come the next federal election they will be able to go to their union bosses and say, 'We delivered this piece of legislation; we helped entrench and empower union bosses'—not unions, but union bosses—'in Australia's industrial and political system; therefore we need you to make sure that you come out under the changes that we've made to election expenditure rules at a federal level and campaign vigorously against the election of the Liberal National Party.'</para>
<para>That is why this is of most concern. This bill is not about helping working Australians. This bill is not about helping small businesses. This bill is cash for policy at its most base. It is bordering on corruption in terms of the payback between the Labor Party and the union movement. This bill was not taken to the election. This bill was a secret deal between the Labor Party and the union movement, not to assist working-class Australians. It was all about helping the union movement.</para>
<para>I say to those business organisations, let this be a lesson to you. You thought you could sit down and deal with this Labor Party, and this shows that the Labor Party played you. This shows that for those of you who went along to that summit—by the way, they had a band that summit they had here a couple of months ago, and they paid $7,000. The Labor party used taxpayers' money to pay for a band that cost $7,000—good on the band, we all love live music—at a summit talking about how the Labor party can entrench itself in power. These business organisations went along and sat there and nodded their heads and said, 'Yes, we can do a deal, we will work together, let's go back to the Keating-Hawke tripartite arrangement.' Of course that didn't happen. The Labor Party and the union movement took you like a hot dinner and are still eating you up and asking for seconds.</para>
<para>So I say to those acronyms out there who represent businesses across Australia, stand up. Stop your wittering and whingeing. Stop your complaining. Stand up and join the fight against this Labor Party. What is happening this week in the six months of this government shows overreach. The overreach that normally happens in the third or fourth term of the government is happening at six months. So just imagine what is going to happen in the New Year. So join the fight and stand up for small businesses.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. There have been extensive negotiations on this bill by the Australian Greens, led by our leader, Adam Bandt, and my wonderful colleague, Senator Pocock here. We think that there are going to be in amendment some important changes that are going to improve this bill overall. Overall, the Australian Greens think the bill is an in credibly important bit of legislation which will result in better conditions and, as the bill says, secure jobs and better pay for workers, particularly some of the amendments working on making sure that the better off overall test actually does mean better off overall for all workers, and increasing things like the ability to access unpaid parental leave.</para>
<para>A central rationale for this bill, which the Greens support and which has been put forward by government, has been the need to increase wages. We support that and we agree. But we also believe that in the middle of the cost-of-living crisis that we are facing government needs to also do more about raising the rate of income support. I want to focus in my speech today on the link between the benefits of raising the rate of income support and how that then flows and feeds into better jobs, better pay and more secure work for workers.</para>
<para>Inadequate income support means that, currently, if you're on the JobSeeker allowance then you get income support at the rate of $48 a day, which is not enough to live on by a long shot. The cost of living now means that the estimate of what you need not to be living in poverty is $88 a day, and yet JobSeeker only gives you $48 a day. The idea of course—and people say this—is that people don't want to be on JobSeeker for long periods of time. But a lot of people are. People are also on JobSeeker and do part-time or casual work. That's all they have access to, or it might be all that they're capable of doing because of health issues, but they boost their income by doing small amounts of work. But at the moment, if you do those small amounts of work then you can only earn an extra $75 a week, or $10 a day, before your JobSeeker payment starts cutting out at the rate of 50c in the dollar. That's a 50 per cent marginal tax rate for people on the lowest incomes in this country. And you only need to earn $1,300 a fortnight, or $92 a day, when your JobSeeker rate cuts out entirely.</para>
<para>I note that the Henderson poverty line shows that what you need not to be living in poverty is $88 a day, and yet JobSeeker cuts out completely if you earn only $92 a day. I've spoken many times in this chamber about the benefits to people of increasing the rate of JobSeeker, and I'll go into that again in this speech. But in terms of the nexus between the rate of JobSeeker and better pay and jobs for people, this undercuts that drastically. If you can only earn $92 a day before your income support cuts out entirely then that sets up the conditions for people working on the black market, people working cash in hand and people accepting really exploitative conditions which aren't in the formal job market, because they desperately need the money to survive.</para>
<para>That undercuts drastically our whole industrial relations framework, because you then have one unscrupulous employer who is paying people at way below the award rate, or below the rates that have been bargained for in enterprise bargains, because those people are desperate to get that money—and this is without any of the checks and balances of our industrial relations system. That's versus other employers who are trying to do the right thing by paying people properly and providing the right conditions; they can't compete against unscrupulous employers. So raising the rate of income support, in and of itself, is going to be an incredibly important mechanism to increase wages, to make sure that people who are working are being paid an appropriate amount for the value of their labour.</para>
<para>As well as having people living in absolute abject poverty on income support being bad for workers it's also incredibly bad for the people who have to survive on that. They need to get by while living in that quagmire of poverty. We know that the current rate is inadequate and we know that it has been inadequate for years. We've heard that from the community and from politicians. The community has told politicians clearly that the payment rate is inadequate. We know that people have to make really incredibly difficult choices about whether they pay the rent, pay for food or pay their medical bills. They're choosing between seeing a doctor or keeping the heating on. And people who are facing domestic violence, homelessness and many other challenges are trapped by a payment that is far too low.</para>
<para>As well as hearing it directly from community members, we've heard it directly from the peak bodies across multiple sectors—the same ones who are supporting this legislation before us today. The Australian Council of Trade Unions, the Business Council of Australia and the Australian Council the Social Services have all, at different points, acknowledged the need to raise the rate, and urgently.</para>
<para>I want to share two stories with you today from people who have been forced to rely on income support payments. They will also give you an example of how living on inadequate income support reduces their ability to engage in paid work. If we are serious about getting people work, supporting people to be in work and supporting people to be able to move into paid employment, we need to be reducing the rate of income support as well as doing all of the important measures that are in this bill.</para>
<para>The first story you want to share with you is an anonymous one. This person begins:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I have been living on poverty on Centrelink payments, Austudy, Newstart and JobSeeker since leaving high school almost nine years back. I have never been able to afford housing that meets my needs as a disabled person with trauma from multiple domestic violence situations from various cohabitors. I can barely afford anywhere to live at all, actually, and the fact that I am once again likely having to find a place to live with current prices within my greater area starting at 70 per cent of the full JobSeeker payment is soul crushing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I spend hundreds of dollars a month on medication and medical equipment I need to live on a day-to-day basis. I can't afford to see specialists for things like my ADHD or autism. I can barely afford basic foods. Almost any meat I buy is nearly off, any veg frozen, any snack half price or made from scratch. Almost all of my money goes directly to rent, bills, food and medical. The paltry leftovers aren't enough to keep my car on the road. I have to ask for help pretty much each year to cover CTP et cetera. (Also, almost every job I have ever applied for has specifically stated that applicants need a car, so people on JobSeeker are literally priced out of being able to work.) New clothes are cast-offs from friends or the clearance section at an already cheap store. I have never been able to buy my own phone—which, by the way, is needed just to access Centrelink payments, and an up-to-date phone with reasonable technical specs is a necessity for the vast majority of jobs I've worked or applied for.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">COVID supplements—which merely raised me to around the poverty line, not even properly out of poverty—changed how I could live and feel for about a year. I didn't have to count every cent to make sure it would last two weeks till next pay. I was able to get medical care I desperately needed to get but couldn't before afford. Even then, though, I had to rely on the goodwill of the specialists to charge much less than the usual rates. I could afford car service and registration without having to beg others for help. I felt vaguely human and part of society for a brief time. My mental health, despite the turmoil of the time, had never been better.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I would like to continue to take the medications that allow me to get up of a morning and do anything other than stare into the distance. I'd like to be able to afford taking any of the jobs I have been applying for, in industries important to Australia but currently struggling for workers. I would like to be able to afford glasses that don't give me a headache. I'd like to be able to afford chicken that I don't have to immediately take home and sniff and hope it's not gone bad. I'd like a lot of things that you and so many take for granted as part of your everyday lives and would cost you and Australia so very little. I just want to be human again. Is that so much to ask?</para></quote>
<para>The second story is from Miranda. She says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, I am completely burned out and have been for at least five years. Five years ago, I had a 15-year-old in and out of hospital and in a wheelchair. I also had a 13-year-old living with ME/CFS and at school part-time, when he wasn't getting a cold that left him in bed for six weeks at a time. As a single parent, I was also working 30 hours a week, twice the number of hours required, yet still needing income support. I had a breakdown that year and have never recovered.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I lost my job when my bosses retired before lockdown in 2020. When the COVID supplement was introduced, I was able to pay my rent, bills and provide for my kids. The younger one was bedbound with ME/CFS. My second job was down to an hour a week.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Once my youngest turned 18, just before Christmas, I lost family tax benefit and child support as well as JobSeeker being back to the normal rate. I still have the casual job that varies a lot during the year, from three hours a week to 25 hours a week. I had another one that came to an end recently.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This year, I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. My younger kid, who still lives at home, was also diagnosed with autism. This kid is still mostly bedbound with ME/CFS too. I can't in good conscience subject him to the torture that is mutual obligations, as this will send his health backwards.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I have been dealing with job search agencies & mutual obligations on and off for over 20 years, since I was fired for being pregnant. Not once have they helped me get a job. Instead, I have been advised to straight out lie to potential employers about my circumstances!</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am worried about how I will continue to pay rent as it's $10 a day more than JobSeeker… however there are no rentals in the area, cheaper or otherwise. Both my son and I have high health needs and I'm still completely burned out.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">JobSeeker needs to be raised so that I can take care of my health, and my kids health, keep a roof over our heads, pay our bills, as well as have a better chance of finding employment and other opportunities to bring in an income.</para></quote>
<para>I want to say thank you to all the advocates who have been fighting to raise the rate of income support. We hear you, and we will keep fighting for change.</para>
<para>As Miranda and the others have told us, there is clear evidence that things can be better and clear evidence that raising the rate of income support is critically important for secure jobs and better wages for workers. For a decade, the Liberals left the payment rate below the poverty line, but for a brief window with the COVID supplement we saw how things could be different. People spoke about the differences that being able to afford food and a safe place to stay made in their lives. People could afford their medical bills and their energy bills. Research showed that the COVID supplement halved the rate of poverty in Australia. Particularly, it also showed that more people were able to enter the job market. More people were actually able to get work during COVID because of the increased rate of income support. It shows again that connection between work and actually supporting people who are out of work on JobSeeker.</para>
<para>That experience in the midst of a crisis showed us that there can be a different way. We can raise the rate of income support and meaningfully reduce poverty and increase conditions and better jobs for workers in Australia. This is an approach that the Greens have constantly advocated for. I do want to, again, acknowledge the important work of my predecessor in my portfolio, Senator Rachel Siewert, over many years, particularly her work chairing the inquiry into the adequacy of Newstart and related payments.</para>
<para>We included a commitment to raise the rate of JobSeeker in our election platform with a clear, costed policy. The Labor Party have been reluctant to do this and are yet to put forward one of their own. At the same time, they have been carrying forward the Scott Morrison stage 3 tax cuts and insisting on giving $250 billion over the decade to the ultra-wealthy. We put forward clear amendments to a bill that recently passed through this place, and I thank Senator David Pocock for his support of those amendments. I also want to thank Senator David Pocock for his important advocacy during the negotiations on this bill for the need to raise the rate and for pushing the government to act. If the commitment put forward by the Labor Party as part of the negotiations over this bill does lead to a meaningful increase in the rate of JobSeeker, then we will welcome it. But there can't be an excuse for further inaction and delaying action, because people are living in poverty now. The skyrocketing cost of living is real now. We need to have an increase in the rate now.</para>
<para>To wrap up, as my colleagues have indicated, and as I said at the beginning of my speech, the Greens are supporting this bill. We will also continue to actively advocate for an increase to the rate of JobSeeker. If the government's commitment as part of those negations leads to meaningful change, we will welcome it, but it cannot be an excuse for inaction. We will continue to push for a guaranteed liveable income so that there is genuine support for everyone who needs it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make my contribution to this piece of legislation. The reason that this legislation is so contested is that it will have a significant impact on the IR landscape in Australia—quite frankly, in a negative way. We have already had small businesses and medium-sized businesses saying that they've got unions on their doorstep and they're being threatened by the unions. This bill isn't about the workforce and workers in this country, as the Labor Party spin machine would have us all believe. It's a union life-support bill. It's about providing power back to the union movement. With private sector union membership sinking to somewhere around 10 per cent or less, unions are seeking a way back, and the government is providing it to them through this legislation.</para>
<para>Businesses are already telling me they're being threatened by unions and being told that this legislation gives the unions the opportunity to go after non-union workplaces. We know that—businesses that have been working cooperatively to create arrangements for their workforce and are seeking to expand their workforce. We all know that there's a workforce shortage in this country right now, and so the bargaining power actually is with workers. Businesses are seeking good workers, good employees, because that's important for their businesses. And we are seeing a growth in wages across this country because of the balance of the market in Australia. We are seeing a growth in wages. The Labor Party wants to dismiss that reality, that fact, but everywhere I go, in every workplace that I talk to, they are all looking for workers, and they're all willing to pay for workers who will work hard for them and provide strong productivity. But the non-union businesses are also telling me that the unions see this legislation as a ticket to come after them.</para>
<para>So don't be fooled by the rhetoric from Labor. This legislation is about reinvigorating union power. It's not about workforce. The objective is to drive up union membership by standing over workers in businesses and in industry—and driving up Labor Party revenues, quite frankly, through the union movement. How do we know that for sure? The CFMMEU have belled the cat. John Setka's out there, and he has said he looks forward to having the power to go after non-union sites. I can tell you that people I know in the building industry, including in the fit-out sector of the construction industry, are hearing that all over Australia.</para>
<para>During my time in the construction industry, I remember seeing the impact of pattern bargaining across that industry and understanding the impact that had on inflationary forces. Effectively, Labor are sending us back to those bad old days of the seventies and eighties, when the unions threatened subcontractors and disrupted building sites. So, when the Labor Party tell us about driving more affordable housing, they're kidding themselves. They're kidding themselves when you think about what the impacts of this legislation are going to be on the construction industry in this country.</para>
<para>Labor say that this legislation is about delivering an election commitment. The Labor Party did go to the election saying they wanted to get wages moving again. They did say that. But they didn't say that they were going to introduce legislation to bring unions back into businesses across the country and to give unions the opportunity to attack small business across the country and drag them into processes that they don't necessarily want to be a part of. No wonder Labor want to ram this legislation through the parliament with a truncated Senate committee process and deals on the side with the crossbench. They really don't want the scrutiny that they should have and that this legislation deserves, given the impact it will have on the Australian economy. They want to ram it through before Christmas so that their union mates can get straight into businesses across the country and so that they can deliver on their backdoor, secret deal with the union movement at the expense of Australian business and the Australian economy. So much for a fairer, kinder, more open parliament and process.</para>
<para>Obviously I'll allow that the Prime Minister sent out the memo. They didn't read it, and they're not living by it. In reality, though, there is one question that sits with this legislation: why would Australian workers trust Labor with their industrial relations? Labor make out that they are the party of the worker, but increasingly we're seeing that that's not the case.</para>
<para>Let's not forget that the legislation that this is amending and replacing is legislation that was brought into being by the Labor Party under former Prime Minister Julia Gillard when she was minister for industrial relations, to replace the legislation that was in place before that. That was after a period of time, I might add, when wages did see strong growth: during the Howard years. Go back and have a look at the numbers. You will see strong growth in wages in relation to the economy during the Howard years. You will see strong growth in the economy and good economic management from a coalition government, alongside strong growth in wages.</para>
<para>Workers in this country have been working to this framework since 2009, when the Labor Party's system came into place. From the Labor Party's legislation, Fair Work Australia have been oversighting the system with Labor's hand-picked people, who have been assessing wage claims and wage increases since that legislation came into place. All Labor's legislation, all Labor's hand-picked people, have been in place since 2009, and that process has driven the outcomes that we've seen over the last decade.</para>
<para>It was that process, every time the coalition sought to amend the Fair Work Act, even during COVID. The cry came from the other side, 'Here we go again with Work Choices.' They were not prepared to amend the legislation. They were not prepared to consider things that had even been agreed with workers, with unions and with employers. They were not prepared to agree to those things. They knocked them back.</para>
<para>Let's be really frank about this. The industrial relations framework that has been providing oversight to workers' wages over the last decade is Labor's. They want to blame the coalition for everything. That's their mantra: deflect any responsibility; blame somebody else. They do not stand up and take appropriate responsibility for their own actions. But let's be fair dinkum about this. This is Labor legislation, passed in 2009 and amended a couple of times, for a new modern award system. To quote the Prime Minister of the time:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Act delivers on the Rudd Government's promise for fair and balanced laws that will allow workplaces to become more productive and competitive without stripping away basic pay and conditions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Act has enterprise bargaining, in good faith, at its heart. Enterprise level bargaining will be the primary means of driving future workplace improvements and productivity.</para></quote>
<para>It goes on. The media release from the Hon. Julia Gillard MP on 1 July 2009 says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The new workplace relations system is designed to balance the needs of employees and employers to ensure Australia is competitive and prosperous, without taking away basic employment rights and guaranteed minimum standards.</para></quote>
<para>So, when the Labor Party says the workplace system is broken: who broke it? The legislation is effectively the same as they introduced and that came into effect in 2009. So, why would any worker in this country trust Labor now?</para>
<para>It's not about workers. This legislation is not about workers; it's about union power. We all know it. We understand it. And the unions know it, because—helpfully for us and unhelpfully for the government—John Setka belled the cat. This allows him and his mates to go after non-union sites. At the same time, the government are stripping away the ABCC, which provided some oversight to that. They say that it was all about stickers on hats and things of that nature, but we know and we've seen the outrageous, disgraceful things the CFMMEU have been penalised for, have been fined hundreds of thousands of dollars for. You don't get fined hundreds of thousands of dollars for flags on cranes and stickers on hats. That is a complete and utter cop-out, and any person on the government side who tries to run that tripe should be ashamed of themselves.</para>
<para>We had a statement in the parliament this morning about the Jenkins review. Yet people on the other side stand up and try to make the claim that the ABCC is just about stickers on hats. Some of the disgraceful things, which I won't try to repeat in this place but have been debated in this place before, are the sorts of things the ABCC should be addressing. At the same time that they're letting the unions back in they're taking off the oversight and controls of some of the more-outrageous elements of the union movement. They should be ashamed.</para>
<para>The opposition will support fair and reasonable workplace relations. We want to see Australians earning a good living. We are concerned, as the Labor Party say they are, about the cost of living. We wanted to make some sensible changes to the Workplace Relations Act while we were in government, and Labor opposed it, with the Greens—not surprising. But here we are, a bit over a decade after the current act came into place, put in place by Labor, and Labor say we should trust them with the industrial relations system—their legislation, their hand-picked people in Fair work Australia, making the decisions about Australian workers' wages—and try to blame us for the impact on wages. It's all in their lap. Why should Australian workers trust them now?</para>
<para>As I said, we know this is about union power, and they're taking away other provisions of oversight of the union movement at the same time that they're doing this. At a time of high inflation we will see—because the businesses are already telling us—that the unions are tapping on the door, and we're going to see more disruption in workplaces, because the unions have more power, which has been provided to them by this legislation. And Labor will do what they've done before. They don't know how to manage money. They don't know how to manage the economy. And they will continue to contribute to the worsening situation in relation to inflation in this country. We've seen it before, unfortunately. I had to live through it during the seventies and the eighties in the building industry. And we're going to see it again.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia and to the workers and small businesses of our nation, I want to firstly thank the minister's staff and the departmental staff for their briefings. I want to thank the many companies, unions, employer entities and workers. We listened.</para>
<para>The Hawke-Keating years broke the previous harsh, adversarial, mutually assured destruction policy in industrial relations in this country. Then we went back with the Fair Work Act from Julia Gillard in 2009—complex, prescriptive. The creators of this act do not understand industrial relations. A senior practical Labor MP whom I regard very highly said that Gillard's Fair Work Act was a 'backward step', damaging Australia. It's failed. Many want it changed. I know that union bosses like David Noonan and Michael Ravbar, for whom I have some regard, and Alex Bukarica and the ETU's Michael Wright say that we need to change, that we need to get back to basics. Employer and industry groups say the same. Parliamentarians in this chamber say the same. How hard is it for workers to know their entitlements with this? It's impossible. How hard is it to run a small business these days? It's very difficult. This thing justifies the industrial relations club's existence. Workers now kowtow to the industrial relations club.</para>
<para>Let's go back to basics. Unions were formed in the 19th century to protect workplace basics; to protect pay, safety, entitlements, job security, retirement; to ensure fairness; and to strengthen workers' bargaining power. Then we got laws to protect state and federal workers. Unions were doing a vital job. Politically they were omitted from being held accountable the way other organisations and company directors were. After successful union campaigns, governments legislated worker protections in employment, safety, industry and health legislation. Unions were no longer needed for those basic protections because they were enshrined in legislation, yet they had immunity from many provisions under the law and were effectively monopolies, with no competition among unions within industries. As with all monopolies, this was the result of government legislation. As with all monopolies, they faced no accountability from competitors. As with all monopolies, some union bosses abused this privilege.</para>
<para>In recent years, in this cosy life with no competition and no accountability, we saw abuses in the HSU, the SDA, the AWU and the CFMMEU in which union bosses stole workers' money for personal, financial and other benefits, including brothels. In the 1990s I was good friends with Jim Lambley, the then CFMEU vice-president. He shared with me his thoughts that the union, which was once strong and powerful and genuinely committed to miners, was sloppy and not providing a service to its members. Times had changed; it needed to lift its game because traditional services were already legislated. As a result of neglect of union members, union membership in the private sector outside the Public Service is just nine per cent and falling.</para>
<para>Not all large unions have a monopoly or bosses that want to exploit them. I single out and compliment the TWU. They've had turmoil, just like every entity, but they've sorted themselves out. They're represented here by Senator Sheldon and Senator Sterle—excellent advocates for the trade union movement, excellent advocates for workers, excellent advocates for Australians. One of the reasons is that the TWU contains not only employees and truck drivers but small businesses. The TWU is the largest entity with the largest membership of small businesses in this country. They work together to provide a service.</para>
<para>I was going to discuss the sheer abuse and exploitation of people in the Hunter Valley at the hands of the CFMMEU, combined with BHP, combined with Chandler Macleod, which is part of Recruit Holdings from Japan, the largest labour hire company in the world. Instead, I will ask a few questions of anyone watching today.</para>
<para>Labor titles its bill the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill. Let me give you facts and ask you what you think. Firstly, the new bill omits any hint at the Fair Work Amendment (Equal Pay for Equal Work) Bill, my bill that has been pushed for months now and which aims to lift casual pay rates. Why? The Senate committee of inquiry agreed on the need for my bill. They said, 'Let's wait for Labor's version,' but it's not in the bill that we see before us. My bill is ready to go, with certain awards that found no issues with it. How long do abused miners and airline staff need to wait? Let's get the experience before widening it. Why not include my bill in this? We've researched it thoroughly. I asked last week and the minister's staff said, 'They've barely started consultation.' Then they did so with the perpetrators of the heinous acts in the Hunter Valley and Central Queensland. They're not interested in better pay. They're not interested, and they've done nothing to include it.</para>
<para>Let's look at job security. Well, look at COVID mismanagement; the phasing out of the coal industry and jobs under the Liberals, Nationals and Labor; the erosion of our rights and freedoms under COVID mismanagement; increasing energy prices; killing manufacturing and hurting agriculture; the lack of much-needed tax reform and much-needed economic reform; increasing debt; work health and safety systems being bypassed; Australia's productive capacity being destroyed; the failure of our industrial relations systems and more; tax reform; high immigration flooding in and putting downward pressure on wages; and inflation. They're not interested in job security at all.</para>
<para>Then let's have a look at the summit. It was a sham. It was not a genuine, Paul Keating-style consultation. The government knew beforehand what they were going to do after the summit. The key items in this bill that they've now got in front of us in the chamber were not even raised in the summit topics. I wrote to Joel Fitzgibbon, the previous member for Hunter, on the abuses in the Hunter valley, and he refused to reply to me. It was the same with his replacement, Dan Repacholi, and the same with Minister Burke. They are not interested in job security, fairness or the law.</para>
<para>Now we've got a bill before us that is another 249 pages plus government amendments—150 amendments to their own bill in the lower house. That's another 34 pages. They're going to add more complexity, make it thicker, make it more difficult for people to understand. These 150 amendments confirm that the bill was hastily introduced and not thought through. If there are so many amendments needed and so many flaws can be identified in such a short time, how many will implementation in the real world expose, and who will pay for that? Workers will pay for that. Small business will pay for that. This is so flawed the government is making amendments to its own amendments!</para>
<para>This is a spit-and-hope bill. When the Australian Building and Construction Commission was introduced, there were months of consultation. When it was abolished, there was none. The same should apply to the whole bill. It needs debate. It needs to be deferred and considered properly. Who pays for this mess? The people: union members, small businesses, workers, communities and the nation.</para>
<para>Let's have a look at the bill now. There are 27 parts, 13 substantive. Some are simply tidying, and that is good. Some are worthy improvements—minor but worthy—and that is good. Some big issues are not thought through. Some big issues have been thought through yet deceptively hidden because they don't want the people to see them. Some issues were designed deliberately to confuse and to obfuscate. All is slapped behind the false labelling of enabling a pay rise and more secure jobs. This is what you get out of the south end of a north-facing bull. There is no mandate for stuff that's been hidden—no mandate at all.</para>
<para>On 22 November 2022, Minister for Small Business Julie Collins failed to answer two core questions: how many small businesses will be drawn into wage bargaining and how much it will cost. They added another definition to the already 140 definitions of 'small business' across government departments. The government tells the people of Australia that the whole rationale behind this bill is to get wages moving, yet there's no specific detail: how, when, who? There is nothing concrete, just broad, fluffy statements, typical of the Labor-Greens-teal coalition governing the Senate. Labor claims it will improve the bargaining position of small business and workers, so why do thousands of small businesses oppose it? Could it be due to this?</para>
<para>Why are union bosses given the power of veto to frustrate the bargaining process? Even if employees agree with the employer, they still can be vetoed by remote union bosses. Why are smaller employers locked into a process they do not support if they have a head count of more than 19 people, including those who choose to work only a few hours a week? Why isn't the full-time equivalent used? As a result, large businesses can negotiate conditions smaller businesses cannot compete with. That aids large businesses to kill off smaller competitors, leading to fewer jobs, plus small businesses lack the resources to deal with the red tape.</para>
<para>The abolition of the Australian Building and Construction Commission illustrates the government's aims and intent: rewarding union bosses with power. That's what's behind this bill. It means a return to the damaging days of industrial thuggery. Remember the BLF? The Dyson Heydon royal commission revealed so much thuggery in the CFMEU. There were court cases and criminal convictions. The ABCC worked. Labor abolished it. The coalition reintroduced it. Labor is now abolishing it. There were millions of dollars in fines. What will happen to them? There was violent behaviour, industrial blackmail, killing small businesses and restrictive work practices that cost taxpayers an additional 30 per cent on building costs. Who's going to enforce the law now?</para>
<para>This bill will in the long run harm unions. It gives more power to union bosses over members and industry and generally in the community. Monopolies discourage responsibility and competitiveness of service and they reduce accountability. This bill entrenches the monopoly and makes it stronger.</para>
<para>Unions may receive a short-term boost, yet, long term, it will accelerate, sadly, the slide of declining union membership. Look in Queensland. Premier Palaszczuk aims to kill the Red Union. She is protecting the Queensland nursing union, who are big donors to Labor. She is trying to kill the Red Union, which is starting freely, because she wants to kill any competition to her union bosses that donate. This is not about higher pay and job security; it's about giving union bosses power over industries, over companies and employers and over workers. Instead of returning to the pre-Hawke days, we need the reverse. We need to restore the primacy of the workplace, the employer/employee relationship, with employees free to bring in unions when they choose.</para>
<para>The big picture is that industrial relations needs comprehensive reform. We need to get away from the industrial relations adversarial approach that has plagued this country. It locks managements, executives, union bosses, consultants and lawyers into industrial relations games and not into improving businesses. Instead of having the brightest and best lawyers and accountants focused on how we can smash the opposition in this country, we need to focus on how we can smash the opposition in South Korea and Japan and China. They are our overseas competitors.</para>
<para>Industrial relations reform needs to be comprehensive, focus on the primacy of the employer/employee relationship and return to the days of Hawke-Keating, at least for a start. People need to focus on their business, not the corporation. Always around the world in workplaces people are focused on their workplace—that's what people love. We need industrial relations reform that develops responsibility for the business. We need a short bill, instead of this monstrosity. We need about 20 pages of basic entitlements, and, instead of getting off the hook through lawyers with this monstrosity, we need clear provisions so that, if these basic provisions are violated, people go to jail. Workers are getting abused in this country. Small businesses are getting abused in this country. We need simple provisions and severe penalties.</para>
<para>Let's consider the teals—David Pocock as a teal and the Labor-Greens-teal governing coalition. The governing coalition in this Senate is Labor-Greens-teal. Fifteen amendments he announced on Sunday. The government was going to do nine anyway! Four are corrections and another four are corrections to government oversights in the bill! The JobSeeker rate is irrelevant to the bill—horse trading! That leaves one amendment that Senator Pocock initiated. Union bosses will still be able to drag small business into multi-employer bargaining, and to get out of multi-employer bargaining those businesses will have to engage in expensive litigation. Welcome to the new Labor-Greens-teal coalition running this country, where the love of power is more important!</para>
<para>In conclusion, instead of the lies and pretence of this bill, we need honesty. Instead of boosting union bosses' power, we need to make the employer/employee workplace relationship the focus to get Australia's talent to the fore and to make us competitive again. Instead of adding more complexity and regulations, we need comprehensive industrial relations reform—simplicity, honesty, efficiency and real protection. This mess bypasses protections and leaves workers vulnerable and exposed. Above this building, we have one flag. We are one community, we are one nation and we work like hell to protect workers, protect small business and restore honesty in governance.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak against the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022 before the Senate today proudly. As the daughter of a small family owned enterprise, I tell you that, if we had had the Fair Work Act then, my dad wouldn't actually have got the milk run done because he didn't pay very well. But what I didn't make up in dollars, I got in Big Ms at the time. It was the 1980s! But, family owned enterprises teach you a whole lot of things about life and the importance of contributing and the importance of hard work.</para>
<para>I also rise to speak vehemently against this bill as the Shadow Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development. This bill will have profound impact on the construction industry, which underpins our infrastructure build across the country; on the transport industry, on our roads, our ports, our airports; and, indeed, on regional development. We know that the majority of country towns and regional capitals are built and sustained by small- to medium-sized enterprises. They're the enterprises that the Labor Party and union mates are after. They've already got a big hold in the big businesses. Where they lack a hold and a sway is in those small family-owned enterprises right across the country. The target of these changes are 2.6 million small businesses across this country.</para>
<para>We've heard senators right across my side of the chamber talk about the rush to get this done and the mistakes that the Labor Party has made on the way to getting that done—150 amendments to their own legislation. They had the drafting pen. They had all the bureaucrats. They had all the legal experts in the department to get it right but they didn't. One hundred and fifty amendments to their own bill, before it gets to the Senate, and a few odd, minor changes by Senator Pocock and here we are—very, very chaotic.</para>
<para>Why are they in such a rush, Senator Cadell? Why? Do you know what I think it is? I think you've got to pay the ferryman sometimes. This is more about making sure Sally McManus and the ACTU have a very, very merry Christmas, thank you very much—as if an election of an Albanese government wasn't enough for them in to 2022. It's to ensure that Sally McManus can go on an extended Christmas holiday with a big smile on her face knowing she has secured changes—through this Labor government reaching into family-owned and run enterprises right across the country—that will wreak havoc on our productivity, that won't raise wages in the way that has been talked about here today. It is not a bill that you had a mandate for. In fact, during the election campaign the Treasurer explicitly ruled out measures that are covered in this bill, and yet here we are, a mere six months later, seeking to legislate the most draconian wind back of industrial relations in this country in 40 years.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister waltzes around. 'I'm the new Hawke.' He has got the voice happening. He's the new Keating. He's nowhere near the reforming nature that the Hawke and Keating government put our economy on for the future. This will be a drag on our economic productivity. It's not just me saying it; it's all the small to medium enterprises, and industry, that are saying it. It is not a policy that has been endorsed by the Australian people.</para>
<para>When we look at what industry has been saying about the impact of this bill they've been absolutely scathing. 'It will be back to the future for our Australian ports.' Who wants to go back to where farmers and small business people are having punch-ups with unions at ports? That is actually what used to happen in this country, because of the severe and radical industrial reaction from unions. This is exactly where this bill will be taking us back to.</para>
<para>The government, in its arrogance, has no interest in allowing the proper time for examination of the implications of these proposed reforms. Their arrogance is compounded by the raft of amendments and the latest changes negotiated on the fly.</para>
<para>The bill will have a significant impact on my portfolio area. It's Master Builders Australia's submission that has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the bill will see a return to industry-wide pattern deals and entrench sector-wide strike action that will be damaging to workplaces and the broader Australian economy.</para></quote>
<para>You don't believe them. We've heard a lot of talk about the feminised workforces and low-paid workers. In the construction industry that's an area of the Australian economy where there have been wage rises going forward. You cannot find a chippie for love nor money. And rightfully when something's in short supply the cost of it goes up. In the construction industry and in the transport industry that flat rate of wage has not actually been occurring.</para>
<para>Industries, such as the construction industry, don't operate in a silo. It is part of an intricate supply chain. Think of concrete. If it doesn't get there on time you delay the entire trajectory of that project—whether it's your backyard patio, or whether it is a major construction project in a capital city that will have benefits to the broader community and productivity across the economy. They aren't carved out like the construction industry is.</para>
<para>In summary: the Master Builders have said that this bill removes the 'enterprise' from enterprise bargaining, removes 'agreement' from enterprise agreements and gives unions more say than workers. And that has to be a bad thing! Unions and the Labor Party say they're about workers, so why don't the working people vote for you? The National Party actually represents those in this country who are on the lowest median income levels. And do you know what? You are so non-competitive in our seats because the workers across Australia know that you do not stand up for them. You are much more interested, as we saw in the latest Victorian election, about fighting for the high-income earners in capital cities against your Green fellows than in actually sticking up for the workers in this country, those who are on low incomes and in vulnerable workplaces.</para>
<para>When we look at what else the Master Builders talked about, they made the point that businesses don't work in an economic silo. There has been a whole song and dance around this place about, 'We've carved out the construction industry and the CFMMEU has nothing to do with it anymore.' That is not the case. If industries like shipping, transport, warehousing and logistics are adversely impacted by multi-employer bargaining then so too will the construction industry be. If there are port strikes or transport strikes, they will impact on the construction industry. It is false to come in here and say otherwise. Independent modelling from the Master Builders indicates that this policy to abolish the ABCC, which other senators have spoken about, will cost the economy $47½ billion by 2030. That's a hell of a lot of roads, hospitals and schools which could be built.</para>
<para>Why are we abolishing the ABCC? It's not because they weren't doing their job and not because they weren't standing up to the sexist CFMMEU, which so many of you are here as a result of—they use your skirts to hide behind. It's the ABCC which is actually calling out the sexism and the brutality that occurs on construction sites right across this country. And do you know what? You want it abolished! That's not because it's taking the CFMMEU to court, and winning cases—which is pretty tough to do—but because this is a deal you've done to get here. Those are the facts of the business that you are in on the other side.</para>
<para>Even the most impartial observer can see that these reforms are heavily weighted to the benefit of the government's union mates rather than to the transport portfolio that I represent. Just briefly, in the time left to me, I want to go to the impact both on the aviation and shipping industries, which have not been carved out. As an island nation, nothing gets into this country without coming from somewhere else and arriving, mainly, at our ports. So if our ports are not efficient or productive then we all pay, right across our economy. I have been quite concerned about the fact that ports are going to be subjected to significant impacts in the workplace. They're critical to our supply chain efforts, the fragility of which were exposed to during COVID. Some examples: Svitzer, for instance, does a lot of the tugboating in this country, and they were forced to lock the gates due to the failure of both sides to reach an agreement. On day one, there would have been only 20 days left of fuel supply for the nation. That's not just for cars and trucks but for airlines. So if you're wondering, 'What do ports have to do with me, I don't own a yacht?' you don't have to. Ports are important to you because if they shut down for a couple of days then we run out of fuel. In a country like Australia, as diversely populated as we are, that has health impacts, education impacts and severe economic impacts.</para>
<para>The Productivity Commission is doing an inquiry at the moment into maritime efficiency. In Svitzer's submission to the inquiry they say that of the four factors contributing to the productivity and efficiency of our ports, one is the industrial relations terms that they're currently having to operate under—things like: minimum crewing rules, which are not in any way linked to operational safety requirements; high penalty rates which don't correlate to the work actually done; restrictions on type of recruitments et cetera.</para>
<para>I know a lot of people have been talking about the low pay. On our side of this chamber, we absolutely want Australians to be well paid for their work. That is making sure that our businesses are as supported as they can be to be as competitive as they can be to make sure that they can pay their workers as much as they can. If our government hadn't taken the action we did during COVID there would be fewer businesses employing Australians in this country than there are right now because, guess what, unless you want to live in a communist country, governments don't employ everybody and governments don't set wages. That is not how it actually works.</para>
<para>One of the most concerning things, when I think about the efficiency and productivity of ports—which won't be addressed and will actually be exacerbated by this particular bill—were the Milo and Magnum clauses in the agreements with our tugboat companies. When you want to know why it costs you so much to get products from overseas, it might be because of the lazy $18,000 that this company had to spend to get a helicopter to drop off a crate of Magnums—not guns, let me assure the chamber, but ice creams—because the crew refused to unload a ship because there weren't enough chocolate ice creams in the fridge on the tugboat. These are not low-paid workers. These guys and gals earn in excess of $250,000 a year. They are more highly paid than some senators in this chamber. And they're refusing to unload a ship because they don't have enough ice creams on board. Do you know what the company has to do? They have to get a helicopter for 18 grand: 'Here you go boys and girls, can you unload the ship now please?'</para>
<para>That's our current industrial relations system, let alone what will happen under the draconian, union-friendly measures that this government is bringing before us, which will wreak havoc on our economy and will wreak havoc on our ports and in our aviation sector. Qantas has said they're going to close down their marginal routes.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator White</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Rubbish!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not going to affect you in Melbourne, Senator. It's not going to worry you at all in Melbourne, Brisbane or Sydney. Do you know who will pay the price for that? It'll be Longreach; it'll be Dubbo; it'll be Mildura. You couldn't give a damn about those communities, because they don't vote for you. But they're actually out there making the money, doing their job, raising their families, contributing to this nation and—I know you hate to hear it—voting for the National Party.</para>
<para>As shadow minister for infrastructure, transport and regional development, I think this is an appalling bill, and we will not be supporting it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak briefly on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022 and the reforms introduced by the bill, particularly to address the gender pay gap. I'm pleased to see movement on making gender equality an objective of the Fair Work Act, introducing a statutory equal remuneration principle, strengthening rights to flexible working arrangements and banning pay gag clauses. These are all fixes that the Greens have called for over many years and which we welcome.</para>
<para>The overall gender pay gap in Australia remains at around 14 per cent. Women, on average, still have to work an extra 60 days to earn the same as men. Men are twice as likely to be higher paid than women across almost all industries, and 85 per cent of employers still have pay gaps in men's favour, even in female dominated workplaces. For First Nations women, women from culturally diverse backgrounds, women with disability and older women the gap can be even worse. The gender pay gap is a product of systemic and cultural factors, like workplace discrimination, lack of workplace flexibility, the cost and availability of child care and the impact of taking time out for caring work. Closing the gender pay gap will take a concerted effort by employers and governments at all levels. This bill makes a promising start, building on the work of the Workplace Gender Equality Agency in tracking gender inequality, and complementing the work to be done by the Women's Economic Equality Taskforce.</para>
<para>I would like to make comments about pay secrecy. Pay secrecy has been an ongoing contributor to the gender pay gap. In 2015 I introduced a private member's bill, the Fair Work Amendment (Gender Pay Gap ) Bill, to ban the use of pay secrecy clauses. So I am very pleased to see this concept being legislated today. For too long, employment contracts that insist on pay secrecy have been used to hid the gender pay gap. Britain and the US no longer allow such clauses. The European Union is set to make pay transparency a binding measure for member states. But pay gag clauses remain a normal practice in Australia. This bill is an overdue measure to end that practice and to create a more level playing field for women in the workplace. No-one should ever feel obligated to tell someone what they're earning, but no-one should be prevented from discussing it. Promoting healthy conversations about pay is the best way to bring inequality out into the open and then address it.</para>
<para>On gender equity and equal remuneration, the easiest way to close the gender pay gap is to pay women more. A key driver of the gender pay gap is the fact that jobs dominated by women, often as a result of entrenched gender stereotypes, remain undervalued. The teaching, child care, nursing, cleaning, retail and aged care sectors all have lower wages, poorer conditions, job insecurity and lower retention rates. Yet we saw through the pandemic how crucial and critical those roles are. The wages paid in those sectors need to better reflect their value. I'm very pleased that the aged care work value case recognised the gendered nature of evaluation of work and the under-valuation of work. There is no justification for pushing a wheelbarrow being valued more highly than pushing a wheelchair, yet average wages in care sectors remain lower than those in construction.</para>
<para>I was working at a community legal centre when the social services equal remuneration case, taken by my union, the Australian Services Union, was decided. I can tell you that the boost that was provided to female dominated sectors covered by that decision was invaluable. People were properly paid for the work they did. Organisations had some certainty that they could attract and retain staff. People felt valued, and their productivity and wellbeing improved as a result.</para>
<para>Women make up 61 per cent of workers being paid based on an award, so ensuring that the Fair Work Commission is tasked with considering gender equity and equal remuneration principles when making determinations will improve work conditions, productivity and wellbeing across all award sectors. I welcome these objectives and the establishment of expert panels on pay equity in the care and community sector to guide that work.</para>
<para>In relation to flexible working arrangements, whether they can access flexible working arrangements is a key factor for many parents in deciding whether to return to work and on what terms. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, most Australian women with as child under two who have returned to paid work use some kind of flexible working arrangement. Access to flexible working arrangements is also a key factor in how caring is shared between parents. For victims survivors of family, domestic or sexual violence flexible arrangements may be the only way to juggle work and dealing with trauma or the emotional and administrative fallout from escaping an abusive situation.</para>
<para>Normalising flexible working arrangements recognises the productivity benefits of ensuring that all workers can juggle family, personal and work responsibilities. Later start times, shared roles, days working from home or other arrangements can improve staff retention and staff wellbeing. Many employers recognise this and will grant requests for flexibility, but some bosses will just say no without considering whether and how they could actually make it work. We therefore welcome the requirement for employers to grant reasonable requests for family-friendly working arrangements, accommodating the need to care for elderly or disabled relatives, or recovery from family, domestic and sexual violence.</para>
<para>Lastly, on parental leave, the Greens have called for strong, equitable paid parental leave for many, many years. Whilst we are pleased that the government has committed to 26 weeks paid leave from 2026 and to the use-it-or-lose-it provisions, we still maintain that those improvements should be implemented much sooner, and we still want superannuation included on PPL and for leave to be remunerated at the parent's wage with a cap.</para>
<para>Relevantly to this bill, I congratulate my colleague Senator Barbara Pocock for her work in getting the government to agree that employers be required to consider all reasonable requests for extended unpaid parental leave. For many families, the 12 months that they're currently entitled to may not be enough—for example, if a child is unwell or requires special attention, if a parent is unwell or just needs some more time to transition back to work or if they live in a childcare desert, which is something that the government would also need to address, and they have no family support to help with child care.</para>
<para>Being able to request an extension of unpaid parental leave and know that employers will properly consider that request will be a significant comfort for many families. These provisions won't impact all families, but, for those who need a bit of extra time without risking their job, these provisions will be very welcome.</para>
<para>In conclusion, I commend the work of Greens leader Adam Bandt and our new and very capable Senator Barbara Pocock in negotiating improvements to this bill that will not only help women but will better protect workers, particularly lower paid workers. The Greens commend this bill to the chamber.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in relation to Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022, which I consider to be the wrong bill being introduced at the wrong time. It's a time of very high inflation in this country. We're looking at eight per cent inflation by the end of the year. Electricity prices, as announced in the last budget, are going up by approximately 56 per cent over the course of the next two years, and gas prices are going up by approximately 40 to 44 per cent over the next 12 months.</para>
<para>In that high-cost, high-inflationary environment, where the economic outlook for the world, amongst our trading partners and in our own country is very dangerous, the government is choosing to introduce this bill. I'm gravely concerned about the impact this bill will have in terms of the Australian economy and in terms of people actually having jobs. That is my grave concern as I consider this bill.</para>
<para>I was left to reflect last night, as I listened to my good friend Senator Susan McDonald give her presentation in relation to this bill, that we heard from someone who's actually owned and operated a business. Senator McDonald owned a chain of butcher stores called Super Butcher in my home state of Queensland, and she had to turn that business around from a situation where it wasn't doing too well. It had some internal issues.</para>
<para>She turned that business around successfully and carried the weight of turning that business around. That weight included the weight of managing the cashflow, of paying all the expenses; the weight of knowing that the employees who are employed by that business are relying on the business owner to provide their future employment; the weight of dealing with customers; and the weight of dealing with supply chain issues, regulatory issues and all the other issues which employers in this country face.</para>
<para>I reflect on my own background in the mining industry. I worked for a mid-tier copper and gold mining company that successfully built two mines in one of the poorest countries in the world, Laos. We lifted thousands of people out of poverty, and we did it to the highest environmental and safety standards and with a very deep and committed social licence program, which included microfinance programs to lift the local village people out of poverty and provided opportunities for them to introduce microindustries.</para>
<para>At the height of the global financial crisis, it nearly all came crashing down. The price of copper went from approximately $4.30 a pound to $1.30 a pound in the course of two weeks. The share price of that company went from about $1.12 a share to 8½c. I remember having a discussion with a dear friend, who was a fellow senior executive in that company. He was going on a family holiday, and he said, 'Paul, if the receivers and managers are appointed, if the administrators come into the business, try and get that painting out of my office.' It was his own personal property and meant a great deal to him from a family perspective. That's how bad the situation was. We got through that with a lot of support from shareholders, from suppliers we had to negotiate with, but it was difficult; it was extraordinarily difficult. We were on the precipice—absolutely no question about that. That experience left a deep mark on me.</para>
<para>I can then remember coming out the other side, when we got hit with a wave of regulation from the previous Labor government, when Wayne Swan was Treasurer of this country. We sat around a board table—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, as much as it pains me to interrupt your speech to the Senate, you will be in continuance. Pursuant to order, the sitting of the Senate is suspended until the ringing of the bells to enable senators to attend the Prime Minister's statement on Closing the Gap in the other place.</para>
<para>Sitting suspe nded from 11:50 to 13:00</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We shall now go to senators' statements.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>26</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission</title>
          <page.no>26</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak about why we need a national anti-corruption commission, and the main reason is Scott Morrison. To introduce into law in Australia an independent anti-corruption commission is a cornerstone of the government's agenda to restore public trust and strengthen standards of integrity in the federal government. Ask anyone and they will agree with you that trust in Australia's democratic process has dropped to an all-time low after a decade of rorts, ministerial scandals, jobs for mates and secret ministerial portfolios under the former Morrison government. To clarify, let me run up a tab of scandals that come to mind: sports rorts, community grants rorts, carpark rorts, MMI grants rorts, the former Prime Minister's Office, reckless behaviour regarding Border Force, an asylum seeker vessel on election day this year during caretaker convention and, the piece de resistance, secret ministerial portfolios held by the former Prime Minister. I put it to you: do you think Scott Morrison has secretly sworn himself in to be Santa Claus this year? No, it wouldn't be Santa Claus; it's more likely to be Ebenezer Scrooge.</para>
<para>History will remember the former Prime Minister as someone who secretly kept power, who secretly swore himself into five separate portfolios—in secret from his ministry and those opposite, and in secret from the Australian people. It's a shameful act which he will never live down, and our country will never live down having a prime minister who so deceitful. Those opposite know it. They may not have supported the censure motion in that other place, but they know it.</para>
<para>In the 121 years since Federation, what the former Prime Minister did was single-handedly undermine our country, undermine the principle of responsible government, undermine our institutions and, once again, undermine everyone's trust in our democracy. The Solicitor-General found this to be the case, and so did Virginia Bell's independent investigation. Ever since the Liberals came into power in 2013, trust in our political institutions has backed down to cynical levels. Political trust actually declined to its lowest-ever recorded level in 2019, according to the Australian electoral data. Since 2012, Australians have slipped 12 points on Transparency International's annual Corruption Perceptions Index. At the same time, our rank in the global index has fallen 11 places, from 7th to 18th. Of all the OECD countries, Australia tied with Hungary in dropping the highest number of points over this period.</para>
<para>If people are to regain faith in politics in our community and across the country, we must act decisively, we must be open and we must be transparent. That is why the Albanese government is ensuring a national integrity commission is independent and powerful, having the power of a standing royal commission. It would not be a toothless commission, like the previous government recommended. Mind you, it was their recommendation but they never even acted on it! It's going to deal with serious systemic corruption. It's going to be able to receive allegations from a whole range of sources. It's going to be able to hold public hearings at its discretion. All of those are important features and very important differences to the former Morrison government's model. For a moment, can you imagine adopting a Morrison model of a national integrity commission? What a farcical joke that would be after his record of impropriety.</para>
<para>Importantly, the Australian government's model will be able to investigate the past. That's another deficiency of the former government's proposal. All the states' and territories' anticorruption commissions have the power to explore past instances of corruption at their discretion and where they think it's appropriate. Anticorruption commissions serve the public by uncovering corruption and ensuring that members of the government, including politicians, are held accountable for their conduct. Every Australian state and territory has now established its own anticorruption commission. But, despite the fact that it overwhelmingly has public support, there is still no anticorruption commission at the federal level.</para>
<para>In December 2018 the Morrison government was finally dragged kicking and screaming to commit to establishing a Commonwealth integrity commission. However, three years later they had still failed to honour that commitment. The Morrison government's ever-increasing list of scandals and cover-ups has reinforced the urgent need for a powerful, transparent and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission. The Albanese government has worked with Australia's pre-eminent legal and integrity experts to develop and design the principles that will ensure that the commission is the most effective anticorruption watchdog in the country. Under these design principles the commission will have broad jurisdiction to investigate Commonwealth ministers, public servants, statutory office holders, government agencies, politicians and personal staff of politicians, carrying out its functions independently of government with discretion to commence inquiries into serious and systemic corruption on its own initiative or in response to referrals, including from whistleblowers, and complaints from the public.</para>
<para>To ensure the commission's independence, the commissioner and any deputy commissioner will serve for a single fixed term and have security of tenure comparable to that of a federal judge, to be overseen by a statutory bipartisan joint standing committee of the parliament, to require the commission to provide information about its work. To ensure bipartisanship and to ensure that support for the commission's work, that committee would be responsible for confirming the commission's nominations by the government, having the power to investigate allegations of serious corruption that occurred before or after its establishment. It would have the power to hold public hearings where the commission determines that it is in the public's interest to do so, being empowered to make findings of fact, including a finding of corrupt conduct, but not to make determinations of criminal liability. Findings that could constitute criminal conduct would be referred to the Australian Federal Police or the Commonwealth Department of Public Prosecutions for further consideration. The commission would operate with procedural fairness, and its findings would be subject to judicial review.</para>
<para>The Albanese government's policy has for some time now been to establish the National Anti-Corruption Commission, which will make a permanent and much-needed change to standards of integrity and accountability in the federal government. The Australian people deserve nothing less. The Australian people deserve to have a federal parliament and representatives they can trust. Corruption in the federal government has been growing over recent years, and the Liberals have failed to take any action to tackle it, leaving the Commonwealth government as the only Australian government without a body dedicated to uncovering and stamping out corruption by public officials.</para>
<para>Maybe the enduring legacy of the Morrison Liberal government will be a national integrity commission, a legacy because of the former government's corrupt actions in government, leading to the need to establish such a commission and to try to restore integrity back into our democracy. I sincerely hope so. But there is nothing more fundamental and more important to the Australian people than to have faith and trust in our democracy. People have fought in so many wars to ensure that we have stayed a free and democratic country. In this place, in this chamber and in the other place, we all have a responsibility to make sure that there is integrity, that we stamp out any corruption and that the Australian people, when they vote, know they're going to get a government that is trustworthy, transparent and accountable for its actions. Unfortunately, over the past decade, the Morrison government, the Turnbull government and the Abbott government have led us to a situation where this legislation we've put through the parliament is so necessary. I sincerely hope this commission reflects on the past actions of the former government.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Marine Complex</title>
          <page.no>27</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Acting Deputy President Sterle, today I rise to talk about something that is desperately needed in our own home state of Western Australia—upgrades to the Henderson industrial precinct. Western Australia has a very long and a very proud history of supporting our nation's defence and defence industry, both in times of peace and of war. Today we have world-leading advanced manufacturing capabilities supported by training and upskilling in using the latest defence technologies.</para>
<para>The Henderson maritime precinct, 23 kilometres south of Perth, is home to some of the most innovative defence supply companies and workforces, particularly related to shipbuilding and maintenance. The Australian Marine Complex and its common user facility was an initiative of the state government, and, in 2003, was funded by the federal government. At the time, it was 'build it and we hope they will come', and industry has certainly come over the proceeding 20 years. But it is time for this facility to get a much-needed upgrade to turn it into a world-leading facility. Sadly, the WA state government is doing what it does best—contemplating an issue, conducting a review, then conducting another review, and then doing absolutely nothing. It is now time to get into gear. We know what needs to be done, and it now just needs to be done.</para>
<para>For those of you not aware of Henderson: since opening in mid-2003 the Australian Marine Complex has generated more than 21,000 direct jobs and delivered projects worth billions of dollars. It has almost single-handedly facilitated the fabrication of millions of tonnes of goods and manufactured goods, particularly for our oil and gas sector, in the north-west. Since 2017 I have been taking many state and federal colleagues, ministers and prime ministers to Henderson to see just what our state is capable of and is delivering.</para>
<para>While Henderson didn't make its way into the 2016 white paper officially as the second major shipbuilding facility in Australia, we managed to remedy that—although it didn't quite make the white paper. The precinct itself is made up of a unique mix of agreements between the Western Australian state government, the federal government and defence industry companies, including BAE, Austal and our industrial powerhouse, Civmec. It's home to around 150 other businesses in five designated zones—shipbuilding, technology, support industry, fabrication and a recreational boating precinct. But it is bursting at the seams and desperately now needs Latitude 32 to be developed by the state government, which has sat on it for five years, so that we have a much-increased capacity to develop our logistics, freight and supply and manufacturing supports not only to the shipbuilding sector but also to our mining, oil and gas sectors.</para>
<para>Western Australia's naval shipbuilding industry is going from strength to strength, largely off the back of the coalition government's investment in 70 new naval ships to be built in Australia. The shipbuilding precinct itself is located on the beautiful Western Australia coast, overlooking Garden Island and HMAS <inline font-style="italic">St</inline><inline font-style="italic">i</inline><inline font-style="italic">rling</inline>. The Anzac class frigates are currently, and have been for a number of years, up-going their mid-life cycle capability assurance program. It is quite an impressive sight to see three of our Anzacs up on the dry dock itself, being maintained.</para>
<para>But that's not all. We've also got Austal shipyards, who have built hundreds of vessels both here in Australia and overseas. They are currently in the process of delivering, at any one time, up to five Guardian class patrol boats and also the Cape class patrol boats for the Navy. Their vessels are on schedule and they are complete to deliver a further five in coming months. In total, 21 Guardian class patrol boats are scheduled to be built. Again, production is well underway and delivery is also well underway.</para>
<para>At the Australian Marine Complex, the state government owns and runs the common user facility and most of the key infrastructure, such as wharves, the floating dock, the self-propelled modular transporters and vessel transfers. There are very longstanding and well-documented deficiencies and infrastructure challenges, which are now becoming a considerable constraint to industry in the area. All of these have been known for a long time. But, again, we have the minister and the Premier in Western Australia constantly saying they're ready for business and they want more from Navy and from civil companies, but they are not providing the facilities that are required to keep growing the industry in Western Australia.</para>
<para>What sorts of things need to be done? In May 2018, I started a very constructive three-way dialogue with the state minister Paul Papalia and the then defence industry minister Christopher Pyne on how the federal and state governments can work together to transform this remarkable precinct. That was in 2018. Not only did we talk about what was required but I also sent correspondence to both ministers. We had a very amicable and agreeable exchange, and we agreed on what was required to be done.</para>
<para>The McGowan government did agree, back then in 2018, that a failure to upgrade state infrastructure would limit the chances to take advantage of emerging opportunities which are well and truly with us now. The state is now in danger of losing a number of these projects because they simply have not provided the infrastructure. In November 2020, the McGowan government released two planning studies and allocated just under $90 million for four projects to fund some of the major works there, but they were still not the majority of works that were needed.</para>
<para>In the correspondence with Chris Pyne and Paul Papalia at the time, in 2018, I went through and we agreed on the priorities. The priorities that I saw were the mapping and establishment of a high- and wide-load corridor and the sinking of overhead powerlines that were clearly restricting access for oversized freight. The local and regional road network needed upgrades to support efficient and safe access to the precinct now and in the future. Anybody who drives through the Henderson precinct at change of shift hours will know just how congested and dangerous those roads are.</para>
<para>Traffic signals at all dangerous intersections need to be either put in or upgraded. Workers find it incredibly difficult if they don't have a car to get in and out of the area. The Thornlie to Cockburn rail line will improve accessibility, but the problem is that it is still kilometres away from the Henderson precinct. For four years the state government is going to be putting in new bus routes from there and the Fremantle railway so that we can get apprentices and workers in and out of that area efficiently.</para>
<para>There is also a pressing strategic need for a second shipping channel to both the Australian Marine Complex and, in particular, HMAS <inline font-style="italic">St</inline><inline font-style="italic">i</inline><inline font-style="italic">rling</inline>, which is a state government responsibility. In fact, the work had started under the previous Liberal government, but it has not proceeded. That is not only a strategic barrier for any visiting submarines and ships to HMAS <inline font-style="italic">Stirling</inline>; it is also a significant constraint just having one channel. Again, it's been delayed and delayed and delayed.</para>
<para>We know what needs to be done at Henderson. The state government had a nearly $10 million study paid for by the federal government when I was Minister for Defence. It said exactly the same things that we did in 2018 about what needed to be done. A very good master plan has been developed with the federal government and the WA state government with defence, yet again they simply will not act. I don't know why. Again, it is review, review. They've got the money. They've got the plan. We know what we need to do not only to attract defence for the next few decades but also to expand the other industries there.</para>
<para>Finally, I'm also incredibly concerned that the Albanese Labor government in their first budget was silent on what has happened to the $4.3 billion that the previous government allocated for a large-vessel dry berth at Henderson, and it's time for the federal government to come clean. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Music Industry</title>
          <page.no>29</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to acknowledge the amazing work and life that the Australian music industry brings to each and every one of us in this country. The Australian music industry—the artists, the producers, the managers, the writers—has had it pretty tough for the last few years.</para>
<para>Today is the last day of Australian Music Month. We've got a bunch of musicians and artist promoters in the building, showing us exactly what their industry is made of and what the industry needs. We've got representatives from ARIA and APRA. We've got the brothers from Lime Cordiale here, Louis and Oli. And we've got the amazing Amy Taylor from Amyl and the Sniffers in town. The music legend Michael Chugg—or Chuggi, Mr Acting Deputy President Sterle; I know the two of you are good friends—is here as well. These representatives from the music industry are here because they are calling on us as the parliament to start standing up for them, to protect their industry and to help their industry to get back on its feet after the horrendous last couple of years, from the bushfires in the summer of 2019-20 right through to COVID. Now, as the next summer festival season comes around, the industry is struggling to get back up on its feet because of the extreme weather and extreme flooding we're dealing with. We've seen all those pictures and stories of artists and festival-goers having to manage in the midst of events that are being washed and flooded out.</para>
<para>The contemporary music industry in this country has largely existed and grown successfully in spite of a lack of support, from a national policy perspective. We know that the Minister for the Arts, Mr Tony Burke, is currently undertaking a culture policy review, and we look forward to seeing the results of that handed down hopefully in coming weeks. One of the things the industry has been calling for is the creation of Music Australia, similar to the agency that already exists for screen, Screen Australia. It's kind of crazy that we're in 2022, our music industry is one of our most successful exports in this country and it contributes billions of dollars to our economy, yet it is the one part of the arts industry and creative industry in Australia that does not have its own dedicated government agency. I think it is time for us to establish Music Australia, to allow a government agency that can bring together government policies and industry expertise and advice all in one place, just as we have with Screen Australia, which is so important to underpinning the growth and expertise within our screen industry.</para>
<para>The cost-benefit ratio of investing in our music industry is so obvious. We know that the live music industry alone is worth $16 billion. That's the live music industry. Think about all of the jobs that come from that, the life that is put into our suburbs, cities and towns and the ability for people to engage and connect. It is truly about enriching community. The amount of export that the Australian music industry contributes is phenomenal. So if we are reviewing Australia's artistic policies, our creative policies, why would we not look ahead and say, 'Look, a Music Australia agency in this country is exactly what we need, and we should fund it'?</para>
<para>I call on the Minister for the Arts. He's got all of the evidence in front of him. I know he is a dedicated lover of Australian music. Let's turn those words into action. Here in this place today, that's exactly what these musicians and promoters and those working in the industry are calling for: $100 million in recurrent funding for the establishment and continuation of Music Australia. It would be money well spent. It would ensure that Australia's musicians and artists can continue to grow and invest not just locally but of course on the international stage as well. So it's wonderful to have them in the building today. I hope that my colleagues here in this place and the other place engage and listen and talk to them about what is needed.</para>
<para>A warning sign for this government. We've had a decade of attacks on the creative industry. The last government did virtually nothing but tear down artists in this country. Then, when they needed us more than ever, in the midst of COVID—we know it was our artists who were hit hardest and first because of COVID, and they are still struggling to get back on their feet—the previous government said, 'Tough luck.' Well, we have seen a change of government. We've seen a change of many seats, and the make-up of this place has changed. It is time that we listened to the Australian community and our artists and said, 'Actually, that's not good enough anymore.' The creative industries are essential to making this country lucky, to making this country the best country on earth, to ensuring that we can tell our stories and hear our own stories and reflect on who we are through various creative means. This is essential if we are to progress Australia in a positive light. Our kids deserve it and our artists deserve it. Those who are here today deserve to be heard.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Myanmar: Asylum Seekers</title>
          <page.no>29</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the very few minutes that remain—it's a great shame I only have a few minutes, because the topic I wanted to talk about is a matter of great importance to our region and a matter of great significance to me—I want to extend my deepest appreciation to the Chin Human Rights Organization and the people of Mizoram state in India. A few weeks ago, I had the privilege of travelling independently, by myself, to India in order to get to the border with Burma, in the north-east of India, to see for myself the unfolding Burmese refugee crisis that is happening in the north-west of Burma, across the border with India. I particularly want to congratulate and thank the people of Mizoram state, because, unlike the government of India, Mizoram state, who share ethnic and religious similarities to the Chin people of northern Burma, have been tremendously generous in their support in providing safe haven and refuge to many of the Chin people that have crossed the border into India.</para>
<para>I wanted to use this very brief opportunity today to extend my deepest appreciation for the great warmth and hospitality that was shown to me when I travelled all the way to Aizawl on the border between India and Burma. I want to thank the government of Mizoram state, and the chief minister and governor who made their time available to meet with me. To the many religious leaders that came out supported my trip, I want to say a very, very generous thank you. I gave the Chin people who are sitting in refugee camps on the border with India a commitment that I would come back to Australia and fight for their cause, so that those who already have humanitarian visas issued by the Australian government can get an exit permit from the Indian government so they can come and find a new future for themselves here in Australia. I recommit myself to that commitment I gave to them when I was in India a few weeks ago.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're now moving to two-minute statements.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>30</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The most recent OECD data on the disciplinary climate has Australia ranked 70th out of 77 countries, meaning we have some of the most-disruptive classrooms by international standards. Disruptive classrooms, of course, lead to disrupted learning for our students, contributing to declining literacy and numeracy results and denying students the opportunity to reach their full educational, economic and social potential.</para>
<para>Data from the Program for International Student Assessment showed that 15-year-old students, so year 10s, in classes with a poor disciplinary climate are around seven months behind in their learning, compared to their peers in more-disciplined classrooms. Research has consistently shown that structured classroom environments are better for our teachers and our students, both in academic terms and for the wider wellbeing.</para>
<para>This is not at all an indictment of teachers or even the schools or educators. This is not a criticism levelled at those who nurture or teach our children. What we want to see is teachers and educators being supported and empowered to help students learn to thrive during their time at school, so it's important for our teachers and educators to be properly equipped with the tools that they need to help manage disruptive classrooms, and it's essential for the government to be able to work together with the relevant state and territory governments to provide the support and training that our teachers and educators need to deliver the best learning opportunities possible for our children.</para>
<para>I look forward to the Senate Education and Employment References Committee's inquiry into how we can best support our teachers and students and address this growing challenge. I encourage all stakeholders to participate in the inquiry. If you've got a view on this, if you've got some experience in this, we want to hear from you. Please make a submission by 31 March.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator O'Sullivan.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to celebrate the passage of the National Anti-Corruption Commission legislation, which passed the Senate last night and which, in just the last hour, has been back through the House of Representatives and will now actually be delivered. This is legislation that delivers the single biggest integrity reform this parliament has seen in decades. It's a powerful, independent, transparent commission. It will investigate serious or systemic corruption in the federal public sector, and for those who are asking the question: no, politicians are not exempt; no, the Labor Party is not exempt. This is real. This is transparent. This is going to make a fundamental difference. It has the power to investigate ministers, parliamentarians, their staff, statutory officeholders, employees of all government entities, and contractors. It has the power to hold public meetings. It will have a mandate to stop corruption and educate Australians about corruption.</para>
<para>This was a promise made in the lead up to the election by Labor, and we are now delivering on that promise. Everywhere I go in South Australia people raise this issue with me. I've had people come up to me in the supermarket, in the petrol station, at street-corner meetings and in representations to my office. This is a really important issue for the people of South Australia and for people across the whole of Australia, but in my home state it is the most common issue that is presented to me that people are concerned about. So I'm delighted that it has passed and that we will now get on with the job of delivering exactly what we have promised.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Valedictory</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This year, 2022, has been a year of really mixed emotions for me—a bit of a roller-coaster, you might say. As travel opened up, I was ecstatic to be able to visit my ammi in Pakistan and my daughter in the US, who I hadn't seen for over two years. It was a year of deep loss, as well, as my beloved cousin, Imran; my brilliant teacher, my friend and mentor, Dr Ronnie Harding; and my bestest longboy, Cosmo, all passed away, leaving a big hole in my life.</para>
<para>In the political world, there was upheaval too—some good, some bad. In Australia, we got rid of the toxic Morrison government, and let's not forget the 'greenslide'. In Iran, we are seeing a massive, women led revolution for justice. However, in the US there was the devastating overturning of Roe v Wade, a big step backwards for women's rights.</para>
<para>No matter which way you look at it, it has been a big year. We worked bloody hard, and it's time for some rest and recovery. I, for one, am really looking forward to putting my feet up for a couple of weeks and watching <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">he </inline><inline font-style="italic">W</inline><inline font-style="italic">hite </inline><inline font-style="italic">L</inline><inline font-style="italic">otus </inline>and <inline font-style="italic">The Newsreader</inline>. Senators might be surprised to know that I quite enjoy <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">he Crown</inline> as well. I will be visiting my daughter in California, and I might even make use of their very progressive cannabis laws.</para>
<para>I'll be ready to greet 2023, reenergised to fight for climate action, for gender equity and for racial justice. From the bottom of my heart, thank you to all of you who work here and support the work we do, including the clerks, the cleaners, the chamber attendants, the committee staff.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria: Election</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It gives me great pleasure to rise and talk about the Saturday election in Victoria, where it wasn't a 'greenslide' so much as a 'natslide'. The Victorian National Party had our most successful results since the Second World War, and I am proud to stand here in the Australian Senate and say the party that is over a century old has gotten rid of rural Independents, a failed experiment in regional Victoria.</para>
<para>Our strong values, positive vision for the future and our pragmatic approach to policy has seen our party room, at the Victorian level, significantly grow. I want to congratulate Peter Walsh and our whole team back at home—all our volunteers—for making that happen. Congratulations to Annabel Cleeland in Euroa and Kim O'Keefe, a former mayor from Shepparton. To Azin and the whole multicultural community at Shepparton, thank you for voting National. Jade Benham, of strong Italian heritage, is going to do a fabulous job in Mildura. There is Gaelle Broad in Bendigo, a strong National with strong values, and Martin Cameron, the only guy in the new crew, a local footballer and tradie down in Morwell, where the Latrobe Valley rejected the Labor Party's renationalisation of the SEC and voted for the National Party in that seat.</para>
<para>I am particularly proud that, as a conservative party and a party that doesn't resile from our conservative values, at a Victorian level we have sent our federal representatives and our state parliamentary representatives—we have 50 per cent female representation at a federal and state level. There is not a quota girl amongst us; we were all preselected by our party, and we are all going to do an amazing job on behalf of the rural and regional communities that have sent us to Spring Street and to Canberra.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Cook</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The response we saw in the House from former prime minister Scott Morrison to the findings of the Bell inquiry and the censure motion against him requires calling out, because there was an opportunity today for the former Prime Minister to apologise to the parliament, to the people of Australia and to our democratic traditions, and to put on record that mistakes were made.</para>
<para>I think most people in this place and people in the community would have appreciated hearing an apology today, but that is not what we got from former prime minister Scott Morrison today; we got defiance and denial that anything was wrong. I say this today because I want the parliament to understand that this is not partisan or political; it is more important than that. Some things matter more than politics. As Bridget Archer said in the other House today, sometimes these things are 'not a game'. This is not a game. When senators come in here and when ministers go to the Governor-General they swear an oath to serve the Australian people and to be honest to them, to be upfront with them and to keep them informed about their decisions. That is not what happened under the previous government. There is an opportunity now, I think, for members all across this chamber and all across this house and for every person who loves our democracy and loves our parliament to call this behaviour out, because it should never have happened and it should never happen again. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender and Sexual Orientation</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to an alarming report published in the <inline font-style="italic">Daily Telegraph</inline> on Saturday about a massive increase in the number of Australian adolescents being treated for gender dysphoria. The causes of this huge increase in children being treated for gender dysphoria need to be investigated urgently, and I will later today move to refer this matter to the Senate Community Affairs References Committee. According to the report, a freedom of information request has revealed there were 2,067 people aged under 18 enrolled in public adolescent gender clinics, which is almost 10 times the number in 2014. The report notes these are only figures for public clinics. It is likely that the total figure, including children being treated by GPs and private clinics, is much higher. The number of adolescents being prescribed puberty blockers in 2021 was 624, up from only five in 2014; while 204 adolescent were on cross-sex hormones, up from 27 in 2014.</para>
<para>These treatments have been conclusively shown to cause lifelong negative health impacts, such as reduced bone density, leading to an increased risk of osteoporosis and fractures, impaired fertility, impaired sexual function and libido, potentially negative impacts on brain development and possibly increased risks of developing hypertension, cardiovascular disease, obesity, high cholesterol and type 2 diabetes. Mental health experts in Australia and overseas are very concerned by these developments, by the influence of ideology amplified by social media and manifested in the so-called affirmation approach to treating children with gender dysphoria, and by the debilitating long-term psychosocial impacts of these treatments. Ultimately, we all want the best outcomes for young Australians.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Western Australian Premier Mark McGowan has betrayed Western Australia by backing the Albanese government's radical shake-up of the industrial relations system. Mr McGowan should be telling Mr Albanese and Minister Tony Burke that they should immediately exempt the mining and resources sector from this disastrous legislation.</para>
<para>Mr McGowan knows that Western Australia relies on this sector like no other state in the nation. He made much of how this sector kept Australia afloat during the COVID-19 pandemic. Western Australians accepted being cut off from the rest of Australia for so long because they knew how important it was to keep the mining and resources sector going throughout COVID-19. Mr McGowan, as we know, loves the revenue as well as the jobs this sector provides for WA. In fact this year's WA state budget highlighted the huge contribution the sector makes to WA coffers, with a cumulative contribution of $12.58 billion, and the sector provides over 65,000 direct full-time jobs in Western Australia.</para>
<para>Mr McGowan needs to take note of the recent comments made by BHP Chief Executive Mike Henry, who said there is no case for multi-employer bargaining in the mining industry. Mr Henry quite rightly points out that the current approach in the industry has been working well, and workers in the industry are paid well. He also says, and he is right when he says, Australia's global competitiveness will be harmed by aspects of the bill that risk flexibility and give rise to increases in industrial action. Then we have the Rio Tinto boss, Simon Trott, who says the legislation will be a handbrake on mining and the wider economy and a handbrake on economic growth, productivity and wages. Mr McGowan should stand up for Western Australia and our mining and resources sector and condemn this radical legislation.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender and Sexual Orientation</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Tonight is the parliamentary launch of Sydney World Pride—a celebration but also a reminder that we have much more work to do to dispel longstanding myths about LGBTIQ people. I take this opportunity to break a few of these myths about trans people and the use of puberty blockers. Trans people and trans young people are not new. There are many historical and cross-cultural examples of trans people, including in First Nations communities. There's nothing inherent about being trans that makes them more vulnerable to poor mental health. However, a lack of support, a lack of health care, and discrimination do contribute to poor mental health outcomes.</para>
<para>Puberty blockers are not permanent. They're a healthcare option at an enormously stressful time for young trans people, and they give adolescents a chance to develop emotionally and cognitively before making further decisions. Data shows these treatments save lives and reduce self-harm. Contrary to what was put forward by Senator Hanson, the common belief that children can access invasive medical treatment is not true. It is in fact difficult to access gender-affirming medical care. It involves multiple assessments, multidisciplinary teams and long waiting times.</para>
<para>The college of physicians provided advice to the former minister for health, noting that an inquiry would not increase the scientific evidence available regarding gender dysphoria but would further harm vulnerable patients and their families. Every Australian child and family deserves to have access to the care and support that they need to thrive.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Schools</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Federal and state governments are due to negotiate a new funding agreement for our schools, and it's a critical time in those negotiations. It comes at a time when private schools are receiving more and more funding which they increasingly do not need, while the public sector is being run into the ground. Because of sweetheart deals struck by previous governments, both Labor and Liberal, private schools increasingly have the cash to outcompete the public sector, and that is the core of the problem. Governments have allowed our education system to crumble to the point that public schools are in danger of being a poorly funded social safety net, while private education becomes the default option.</para>
<para>It is no exaggeration to say that public education as we know it may cease to exist unless radical funding reallocations are made. Minister Clare knows this, and he has said that the educational divide between rich and poor, city and country, 'ricochets through generations'. But his words are not being met by action. The government continues the longstanding bipartisan policy of privatisation. As Gonski panel member Ken Boston says, the Gonski reforms have been 'politicised, bastardised and cherrypicked'.</para>
<para>No other country in the developed world pumps as much money into private schooling as Australia does. We are an outlier. With every stitched-up budget, with every hamstrung bilateral agreement, with every extra cent for private schools, our kids' futures get darker and the inequality gap gets wider. This is the last chance for public schooling in Australia. If we don't start pumping money into the public sector and taking it away from the overfunded private sector, we are giving up on equity in Australian education.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria State Election</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To all the UAP candidates and volunteers who worked very hard during the Victorian election, although not the result that we all wanted to see, I say thank you. It gives us a target to work towards for the next election, which will be here before we know it. To our candidates: you worked long hours day in, day out. You sacrificed personal events and time with your families, and you were always available after hours to get on with the job of running a campaign. Well done to you.</para>
<para>To our volunteers: thank you. Through two long pre-poll weeks with all four of Melbourne's seasons, blisteringly hot one day, windy and cold the next—you've got to love Melbourne weather—you did it and you did it with a smile on your face. You stood up for the values that you believe in. Across our great state, from Warrnambool to Wodonga, from Narre Warren to Wallen, out you went, day after day.</para>
<para>I congratulate Premier Daniel Andrews on his election victory and wish him the best for his next term as Premier of Victoria. We should take heart from the fact that the best of our state is in front of us and not behind us. We must now come together as Victorians. Together we can do more than if we are apart. We must move on from the past and instead look towards our future and what we can achieve.</para>
<para>We will of course continue to hold the Premier's government to account on all matters and continue to provide alternative solutions and ideas to the status quo. We will not stop championing what we believe in: fiscal responsibility; traditional Australian family values; individual liberties; a smaller government; less bureaucratic red and green tape; lower taxes; freedom of speech, of thought and of association; and the support of free enterprise. To the candidates, members, volunteers and supporters of the UAP: thank you; the best is yet to come.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Racially charged attacks and offensive language have no place in a national conversation on the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice to parliament, not at any time. Before we even have the legislation to trigger a referendum, I'm seeing and hearing references to rednecks, race based conspiracies and personal attacks that contribute nothing to sensible, safe discussion, discourse and debate. Whether it is in our parliaments; in community meetings; in consultations and conversations with workplace colleagues; with family and friends; or simply at a barbecue, no Australian should be silenced on this.</para>
<para>Delivering an outcome in an environment of fear, intimidation and bullying is not cultural and nor is it an Australian value that any of us should aspire to. Sure, make it robust and loud; but be careful about what we say and about platitudes that could silence or shame, such as being on the 'right' side of history. To take an alternative position is not giving up culture, being racist or rednecked, or means that you are diminished, a loser or discredited. I have concerns and questions about details, and I would have them even if I weren't a member of parliament. As an Australian, I don't want that space filled with diatribe, insults and public attacks, even if they're not directed at me.</para>
<para>For informed consent I need comprehensive, quality information; all I seek is the facts. I will continue to speak out against those in debate, in organisations and in communities who seek to control through fear, undermining, intimidation and silencing, because it is disgraceful, distasteful and shameful. Above all else, it diminishes contribution and involvement.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ukraine: Holodomor</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Earlier this week I presented a notice of motion to the Senate noting Holodomor. Today, I wish to acknowledge that last Saturday, 26 November, was the 89th anniversary of the enforced famine known as Holodomor. This famine took place in Ukraine between 1932 and 1933, and resulted from the deliberate actions of Joseph Stalin's communist government of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics. Up to seven million Ukrainians were starved to death. In fact, the word 'holodomor' translates from Ukrainian as 'death by starvation' or 'murder by starvation'.</para>
<para>The cruel policies of the USSR at the time were aimed at suppressing Ukraine's resistance to the regime, as well as destroying their aspirations for democracy, nationhood and the assertion of their unique cultural and religious identity. The Soviet Union's denial of the famine continues today as an official policy of the Russian Federation. As I said, it's estimated that up to seven million Ukrainians starved to death as a result of these policies. These actions must be acknowledged, remembered and condemned, just as we condemn Russia's attacks on Ukraine's sovereignty and territorial integrity since the country declared independence in 1991, culminating in the illegal annexation of Crimea and this year's completely unjustified invasion of Ukraine.</para>
<para>Russia's decision to pull out of a deal to allow the export of grain from Ukraine from Black Sea ports marks a continued use of food as a political weapon. In the same way that we commemorate the Holocaust, it's vital that the story of Holodomor is told and acknowledged by the global community, just as it is in Ukraine. We need to honour the memory of those who suffered and teach the true history of this event to future generations.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>International Day of People With Disability</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>( Disabled people are awesome. This year on International Day of People With Disability, our Australian disability community is more politically engaged than ever before. This year's global theme is all about the transformative solutions that we need for inclusive development. I would love it if this government would urgently adopt transformative solutions that would improve the lives of disabled people. However, this year this government has adopted a very different theme. The government wants us this Saturday—I kid you not—to spend a day #lookingbeyond our disabilities, as in look beyond our disabilities.</para>
<para>This government wouldn't tell First Nations people ahead of international day of First Nations people to look beyond their skin colour. This government wouldn't tell a woman ahead of International Women's Day to look beyond their gender. So why is it appropriate that this government would ask disabled people to look beyond the reality that we are disabled people? Imagine how a vision impaired person feels about that. Imagine how somebody with an invisible disability feels about that. How about we try something radical, folks, and look at the wheelchair. To address ableism we must authentically engage disabled people. To address ableism everyone must look directly at how we can improve our places and spaces. To our allies and supporters: see us; don't look past us. To fellow disabled people: I hope you feel seen and celebrated today and every day. To this government: do better.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>United Nations Climate Change Conference</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was hoping to give a 10-minute piece on this but the government did away with senators' statements, so I will try and do it in two minutes. Visiting COP27 in Egypt the other week was a life-changing experience, as some of my colleagues who have been there will already acknowledge. It was clear to me that the whole world was there. There is no doubt that the world is committed to decarbonisation. With other world leaders there, including President Biden and Prime Minister Sunak, it was a shame that our Prime Minister didn't go and that Minister Bowen only showed up for a couple of days. There were more coalition members there than ALP and Greens members combined. I acknowledge that our Acting Deputy President was there. Why? Why weren't we there?</para>
<para>We need to care about a cleaner, healthier planet. We also need to care about sovereign energy security. It is why the coalition is there at the table. We recognise that the transition is vital but it's also going to be long, hard and very expensive—far more expensive than the government is currently telling you. Rewiring the Nation is going to cost an awful lot of money and the estimates that the government are telling you are blatantly wrong. We should be putting these renewables where the energy is needed, not hundreds of kilometres away. That is going to cost families huge hits on their energy bills and electricity prices are only going to go up. The other issue being ignored by Labor is the firming of those renewables and batteries won't do it. It was reassuring to hear John Kerry talk about the role of nuclear power in firming up renewables to decarbonise the planet.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Road Safety</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I know people are looking forward to a well-deserved break over this holiday season. This holiday season I'm asking drivers on our roads to drive so others survive. Over 1,200 families will be sitting around a dinner table this year with an empty chair for a loved one killed on our roads. In some cases more than one seat will be empty. We need to think of those families when we are buckling up for a drive locally or when a road trip is calling. Make sure your car is roadworthy and make sure you are in a state to drive safely because no other family deserves to have an empty seat at the dinner table.</para>
<para>Rural and regional roads account for two-thirds of our road deaths each year. Although it is easy to blame the concentration of rural and regional road deaths on visitors, we know locals are just as vulnerable to being killed or seriously injured. We don't need to be a hero out there and pretend we know the ins and outs and twists and turns of every road. Take the time to know your route and where the next rest area is. Check if the driver revivers are open. My message could not be more clear: never, ever compromise road safety.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for this debate has finished.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</title>
        <page.no>35</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Bullying, Sexual Harassment and Sexual Assault</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>PRESIDENT (): Just before we move to question time: this morning in my statement I implied that the codes had not been presented to the parliament, but I advise the Senate that they were indeed lodged yesterday in the Senate and the House.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>35</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Senate Estimates</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. I refer the minister to the words of the late Harry Evans, the longest-serving Clerk of the Senate:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The value of estimates hearings in improving accountability and probity of government has long been widely recognised. The hearings allow apparent problems in government operations to be explored and exposed, and give rise to a large amount of information which would not otherwise be disclosed. They have come to be recognised as a major parliamentary institution of accountability.</para></quote>
<para>Minister, won't the government's plans to axe a full week from the traditional four weeks of Senate estimates lead to less accountability, lower standards of probity and reduced disclosure of information, and mean that any problems in government operations are not properly explored and exposed by the Senate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much for that question, especially on a day where the House has just censured the former Prime Minister for dual—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjec ting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to take the questions! Nine years, you had—nine years!</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Order! Senator Cash! Senator Henderson!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Dean Smith</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is so 46th Parliament!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Dean Smith! Minister Wong, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take that interjection. You're right; the parliament under you was a parliament which was not respected. The Westminster system does actually require ministers to be accountable through the parliament to the Australian people. Who was the accountable minister in that place? Mr Morrison and another! So don't come in here telling Australians you care about accountability when they saw nine years of cover-up, saw nine years of sports rorts, saw nine years where you refused the basic standards of probity—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Order on my left! Your leader has asked a question. I cannot hear the response. Minister Wong, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind those opposite of some of their standards of accountability: changing the law to hide significant energy price increases from the Australian people until after the election; refusing to release the <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">tate of the </inline><inline font-style="italic">e</inline><inline font-style="italic">nvironment</inline> report because it contained too much damning proof that the environment was in a poor and deteriorating state; and, of course—something that was refused to be answered in estimates—all the sports rorts questions, which, in estimates, you never answered. As those opposite would know—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, please resume your seat. Order on my left!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDEN</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie! I've called the chamber to order. I expect to be able to hear the minister in relative quiet and to stop yelling louder than the minister is speaking. Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I knew Harry Evans and I had a lot of respect for him. I would remind those opposite that additional estimates statements are associated with MYEFO. We have had a budget and we are having estimates associated with the budget. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, your first supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, Prime Minister Albanese has said again and again that the Australian people deserve transparency and accountability. Won't the axing of a full week of Senate estimates lead to less transparency and less accountability? How can the axing of this week be anything other than the Labor government taking an axe to government accountability and transparency?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would invite those opposite that if they want to talk about accountability to perhaps consider some of what is being disclosed through the Royal Commission into Robodebt and the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You won't talk about yourself, will you?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You know, it's really interesting, Senator Birmingham; aren't you a Johnny-come-lately to this issue of integrity? You were a senior minister in that government. Did you have the spine to stand up and tell Scott Morrison he was wrong? Did you have the spine to stand up and tell Mr Taylor he was wrong? You know that you're always talking, aren't you—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Where's the spine? Show a bit of leadership! Everyone will know—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong! Resume your seat.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I have a senator on his feet—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath! Senator Scarr, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I think that the Leader of the Government in this place should—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, what is your point?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Directing comments through you, President, as opposed to gesticulating rudely at the member of the opposition and not referring to him correctly.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Scarr. Minister Wong, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I remember how long they fought against an anticorruption commission. I remember how long they fought against that. And now this man, who is a member of the leadership group, has the temerity to come in here and tell us about transparency! He's discovered it now he's on that side! Everybody knows: no leadership, no backbone and a Johnny-come-lately on transparency. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, your second supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I—</para>
<para>Honou rable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!. Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat. This is a most disorderly start to question time and I'm going to ask those on my left and my right to listen with respect. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BI</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. Together with Senators Babet, Hansen, Lambie, Pocock, Roberts and Tyrrell, I have just written to Senator Wong, and the minister, indicating that we do not accept the arguments put forward by the government to defend its cutting of Senate estimates and that we will not be in a position to support the proposed sitting schedule for 2023. If, as you say, you're all for transparency, accountability and respect of the parliament, will you listen to the crossbench senators and the opposition, and revisit your decision to axe this estimates week?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, please wait for the call. Senator Wong.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. It's interesting how quickly conventions which we observed for nine years are junked by those opposite.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No! Let me just finish this. For nine years, the Greens moved amendments to your sitting pattern which we never supported. It didn't take you very long, did it? There are a few other conventions in this place if you want to go down this path. Additional estimates are for the purpose of examining the estimates from MYEFO. That is actually what they are for. And we have—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Cash, I'm calling your side—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt! I'm waiting for quiet until I call the minister back again. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, the additional estimates have been for the purpose of examining the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook update. It's a technicality; it's because, constitutionally, the budget—oh!</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Would you like to answer the question? You didn't answer the questions in government, would you like to answer them now? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DISTINGUISHED VISITORS</title>
        <page.no>37</page.no>
        <type>DISTINGUISHED VISITORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I call you, Senator Dodson, it would seem to be an appropriate time to draw to the attention of honourable senators the presence in the gallery of Sex Discrimination Commissioner, Kate Jenkins; Chair of the Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce, Kerri Hartland; and the secretariat. On behalf of all senators, I welcome you to the Senate.</para>
<para>Honourable senators: Hear, hear!</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath, I have a senator waiting to ask a question. Senator Dodson.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>37</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Closing the Gap</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Can the minister update the Senate on the findings of the <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report</inline><inline font-style="italic"> 2022</inline>?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Dodson for his question and I thank him for his leadership in this parliament and his leadership for Australians—our First Nations peoples and non-Indigenous Australians—for decades.</para>
<para>Today the Prime Minister tabled the annual Commonwealth <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report 2022</inline> and, deeply regrettably, the progress is mixed, with only four of the nine targets for which we have updated data being on track. There is some good news: there are some areas where we are on track. More than 89 per cent of babies are being born with a healthy birth weight, which is on track, and 96.7 per cent of children were enrolled in preschool in 2021, which is also on track. But there has been unacceptably slow progress in other areas, and some metrics have gone backwards. This includes children being school ready, rates of incarceration, the number of children in out-of-home care and deaths by suicide. For the majority of socioeconomic targets, there is little new data available to track trends reliably. Work has started to improve this data so that we will have a clearer picture of how we are tracking in future years.</para>
<para>But I think we are obliged on all sides of this chamber to recognise that decades of inadequate government policies have failed First Nations people and have failed to close the gap. We must reverse the entrenched inequality, disadvantage and structural racism faced by First Nations peoples. We on this side of the chamber—and I hope all across the chamber—are committed to doing this, and to ensuring sustained progress over the life of the 2020 National Agreement on Closing the Gap and the Commonwealth Closing the Gap Implementation Plan. It is clear that the Closing the Gap architecture can only work if we work together, when there are coordinated efforts from all jurisdictions and, most importantly, when we work in genuine partnership with First Nations peoples. It is only when Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Dodson, your first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline how the government is working to accelerate progress towards closing the gap?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you again for your contribution to the government's commitments in this area, Senator Dodson. They include, in the October budget: $54 million for 500 First Nations health workers and practitioners; $164 million for vital health infrastructure; $33 million to make early education more accessible; $100 million to improve remote housing, particularly in the Northern Territory homelands; and, importantly—and I know Senator Dodson has spoken about this—$81 million in up to 30 community-led justice reinvestment initiatives to seek to divert young people from the criminal justice system and to reduce crime.</para>
<para>But we must do more, and I think the compelling message from this report is why it is so important for First Nations people to be heard and to be part of designing and delivering the solutions to this disadvantage.<inline font-style="italic"> (Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESID</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> Senator Dodson, your second supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline how the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice to parliament supports the objective to close the gap?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So-called solutions conceived in Canberra and imposed on communities without consultation are more likely than not to end in expensive, ineffective and even counterproductive failure. This is what the Prime Minister said today. But when a government listens to people with experience, with earned knowledge of kinship and country, and of culture and community, and when we trust in the value of self-determination and empowerment, then the results are always better. At its core, the <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report</inline> asks us if we're going to continue to do the same thing whilst expecting a different outcome.</para>
<para>The Uluru Statement from the Heart had a humble request at its core: we seek to be heard. It is the same message that we see in this report today and why it is so important for that hand outstretched, which is the Uluru Statement from the Heart, to be met generously by all Australians.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Human Services</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Government Services, Senator Farrell. I refer to media reports today that over 1,000 contractors have been axed with little notice, just 26 days before Christmas, with employees quoted as saying, 'It's not great to get this kind of news right before Christmas.' Is this what the government means when they say they want secure jobs for all Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Liddle for her question at this time. A number of commercial ICT contracts at Services Australia have recently ended their terms. The impacted contractors will end in line with the relevant terms and notice period. In other words, these contracts were coming to an end in accordance with the terms of the contracts, and the government and, in particular, Services Australia have applied the terms and conditions that relate to those contracts. These ICT providers have supported Services Australia to significantly bolster the ICT systems to meet unprecedented demand on our systems and services during emergencies such as the pandemic, and we do thank them for their support.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cash</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Merry Christmas!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that interjection. These were contracts that were freely entered into by the former government. There was a set of terms and conditions, and the government is simply complying with those terms and conditions. I've had some experience of what you did with ICT contracts, and I would like to refer to the PEMS contract, which I am— <inline font-style="italic">(Ti</inline><inline font-style="italic">me expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Liddle, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So clearly you didn't mean them! Given the significant number of job losses, can the government guarantee there will be no reduction in access to services or an increase in any backlog of claims by this decision?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Liddle for her question. I've actually seen what you've done with ICT contracts, and the perfect example is the PEMS contract, a contract that was supposed to deliver services for members of parliament. It originally cost $48 million and is now up to $66 million and counting. And it's now being referred to the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Farrell, please resume your seat. Senator Liddle?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Liddle</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order: the question was about reduction in services and backlog.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will draw the minister back to the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> Thanks for that clarification from Senator Liddle. Essentially Services Australia consists of a workforce that's made up of the Australian Public Service staff. These staff are, from time to time, supplemented by contractors, and that's the people that we're talking about at the moment. These numbers go up and down, depending on government priorities and changing circumstances. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Liddle, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, can you confirm that none of these contractors were working on cybersecurity programs and projects which would deal with vulnerable Australians' data and that this decision will not see any reduction in the protection of their data?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Liddle. Obviously this is not my own personal portfolio. I would not expect that there would be any reduction in services through this process, particularly as it relates to the issues you just mentioned in your question. But I will have a chat with the minister and I will come back to you if there is any issue different to what I have just said.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Infrastructure</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Watt, the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government. In this government's first budget, $1.9 billion in equity investment was allocated for the development of the Middle Arm Sustainable Development Precinct in Darwin Harbour. Part of this funding is for common use marine infrastructure. Can the government rule out that this port will have a fossil fuel component such as a gas fed petrochemical hub?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you Senator Cox for your question. As you're aware and as you've said, the government will provide $1.9 billion in planned equity to support the development of the Middle Arm precinct in Darwin, together with regional logistic hubs along key transport links. It is intended to be a multipurpose precinct, so I am not in a position at this point in time to rule in particular developments or rule out particular developments. But this investment will enable the precinct to be globally competitive and sustainable, with a focus on low-emission production, green hydrogen and critical minerals processing.</para>
<para>As you're probably aware, Senator Cox, demand for clean energy sources is growing, particularly in the Northern Territory, and Labor's investment will help position the Northern Territory and northern Australia to diversify their economy and create new jobs. This investment is not a subsidy for fossil fuels in the way that some people have characterised it. Rather, funding will go towards infrastructure that will support users to export clean energy that is critical to meeting our commitment to net zero, like green hydrogen and lithium batteries that are critical to decarbonisation.</para>
<para>Particularly in my previous role as shadow minister for Northern Australia, I spent a lot of time in the Northern Territory with my good friend Senator McCarthy, along with House of Representatives member from the Northern Territory Luke Gosling and Warren Snowdon, the former member, and now Marion Scrymgour. I know they are passionate advocates for the Northern Territory to diversify the economy up there and to take advantage of some of the incredible natural and mineral resources that the Northern Territory has. There are extremely exciting projects in the offing in the Northern Territory in that clean energy space, and I think they offer an opportunity to produce lots of very important jobs for that part of the country.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Northern Territory government's investment website recently changed its description of the Middle Arm project by deleting references to petrochemicals. Did the federal government ask for this public information to be edited?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I don't know what evidence Senator Cox has for suggesting that the federal government may have been involved in this, and I really think that questions as to what the Northern Territory government puts in documents are questions that should be directed to the Northern Territory government.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order on relevance: it was about whether the federal government gave permission for this to be edited.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cox. The minister is being directly relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, questions as to what Northern Territory government documents do or do not contain should be directed to the Northern Territory government. It's all very well for the Greens to roll in, as they like to do, and ask 'Did you do this? Did you do that?'—promoting some kind of conspiracy theory—without any evidence for it whatsoever. Perhaps Senator Cox would like to present any evidence she has to suggest that the federal government was involved in that. As I said, this is a really important development for the Northern Territory that the federal government is very pleased to back. It provides an opportunity for some very important job development in the Northern Territory going forward.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When I attended COP27 this year in Sharm El Sheikh, I heard about the government's commitment to the protection of mangroves. Darwin Harbour has significant mangroves. How many hectares of mangroves will be destroyed by blasting in the creation of Middle Arm's federally funded marine infrastructure?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am very well aware that the Albanese government takes issues of environmental protection, including mangrove protection, extremely seriously. I know Minister Plibersek is doing a lot on this front, particularly as the environment minister for our country.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Cox?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, a point of order on relevance. How many hectares of mangroves are going to be destroyed by this marine infrastructure being developed? It's a very simple question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cox. You also referenced COP, and I do believe the minister is being relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This development, like every development that is proposed for Australia of the scale of this development, will have to go through an EIS process. That EIS process would consider the very matters that Senator Cox is questioning, and that is the appropriate process in which to make those sorts of decisions, based on expert evidence about what all of the environmental impacts of this development would be, whether they be about mangroves or any other feature of the development.</para>
<para>As I say, and as I continue to say, this is an important development for the Northern Territory and it's an important development for the entire country. We support it, we support the jobs that come with it and we support the clean energy that will come with it as well. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliament House: Staff</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Women, Senator Gallagher. In asking it, I acknowledge the early educators, disability workers and hospo workers from the United Workers Union in the gallery today. Welcome. Can the minister give an update on how the government is working across the parliament to progress recommendations from the <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">et the standard</inline> report?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for the question and welcome those representatives from the unions joining us today. I also acknowledge Kate Jenkins, Kerri Hartland and the team supporting the Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce. Of course, Kate Jenkins is the author of the <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">et of standard</inline> report, and it's so fabulous to have her here as well.</para>
<para>Today we acknowledge the one-year anniversary of the <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">et the standard</inline> report and its findings that Parliament House was lagging behind the rest of the country when it came to a safe workplace for staff and for women in particular. It was all there: gender inequality with a lack of women in senior roles; a lack of accountability in systems; a work hard, play hard culture that left some, particularly young staff and young women, vulnerable to exploitation and sexual misconduct; and high levels of power indiscretion in relation to employment, combined with insecure employment. I would like to thank all of those current and former Parliament House staff who came forward to talk about their experiences working in parliament. Many of those experiences are harrowing, and speaking out must have required enormous strength and bravery.</para>
<para>A centrepiece reform from the report is the establishment of a new HR entity body for parliamentarians and their staff to provide independent advice and support and drive an agenda of professional development and best practice, training and continuous improvement for staff. The recommendation flowed from the <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">et the standard</inline> report, and staff across the parliament have been consulted on how this new HR body should operate in practice. I would like to acknowledge the work of Meg Brighton and her team in the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service, which has made such a difference in such a short amount of time. We know staff trust it, they like using it, and it's been a really welcome addition to the infrastructure here.</para>
<para>Cultural change in parliament will only happen when we all work together. I would like to acknowledge Senators Farrell, Hume, Davey and Waters for their work and joining us on the Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, your first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister update the Senate on how Parliament House can work towards becoming a model workplace?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for the question. Ensuring our parliament reflects the community we serve is critical to becoming a model workplace. The parliament is a different place from a year ago, with the highest number on record of women across both houses: 38.4 per cent in the House of Representatives and 56.6 per cent in the Senate. There are now 10 women in cabinet, the highest number ever to hold positions in an Australian cabinet. At the heart of the continuing work to become a model workplace is the experience of staff. Thank you to all who continue to advocate for change and to your respective unions. Labor strongly supports the creation of a staff advisory body to support the multiparty Parliamentary Leadership Taskforce and is committed to ensuring that staff voices are heard.</para>
<para>Yesterday the Joint Select Committee on Parliamentary Standards tabled their report on codes of conduct. This represents a historic milestone for the parliament, and I acknowledge the Deputy Speaker in the other place for her leadership as chair of the joint select committee.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, a second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister please update the Senate on why these reforms are so critical to improving conditions that will benefit workers in parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We strongly believe that parliament, and the workplace in parliament, should lead the country on culture and standards. We also want to attract the best and brightest to work on Parliament House, we want to retain them and we want to ensure that they have a positive work experience in this building. Too many bright and hardworking people have left with their careers cut short and their mental health affected after experiencing bullying and sexual harassment when working in Parliament House. We will only achieve the best outcomes for the Australian people if we have a safe and supportive workplace for those who serve the public.</para>
<para>The parliament has already passed laws to clarify workplace protections and make clear that the age discrimination and disability discrimination acts apply to MOPS staff. The implementation of the MOP(S) Act review will drive systemic change for staff and deliver a professional and modern employment framework. Every one of us has a responsibility to ensure that we achieve what we are setting out to do.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender and Sexual Orientation</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health, Senator Gallagher. Contrary to the claims of Labor Senator Pratt this afternoon, clinical evidence shows that puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones used to treat adolescence diagnosed with gender dysphoria cause negative long-term health outcomes such as reduced bone density and impaired fertility. Does the Albanese government support these treatments' being administered to young Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Hanson for the question. I didn't hear Senator Pratt's contribution earlier, but I know that she understands this issue and she has a level of knowledge on the subject that probably exceeds that of most people in this place. Even without knowing her comments, I have no problem in aligning myself with them. I would also say that the—</para>
<para>An opposition senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On this issue, on which I have talked to Senator Pratt, and she has educated me, I take that unusual step. On the broader question you raised on gender dysphoria and the Albanese government's position on it, our position is that every child and every young person should have access to all of the necessary supports that they need to ensure they access appropriate health care, regardless of the reason for which they might be seeking that care. That is our position. That is a responsible, mature position.</para>
<para>This is a matter between young people, their families and the treating health professionals, whatever they might be—doctors, psychologists or other health professionals. That is the position that we would take. We also think that, every time issues around this are raised, people listen and they hear, and it affects them. So we also think that there should be a level of responsibility in this chamber to deal with these matters sensitively and carefully, because young people's wellbeing depends on it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in reference to your comments saying that children and parents are listened to, I'm sorry, talk to the mothers of these children who have had these puberty blockers. They have no say whatsoever. They are listening to children under 18 years of age. They have no say; they're children.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, do you have a question?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The <inline font-style="italic">Daily </inline><inline font-style="italic">Telegraph</inline> newspaper last weekend reported a tenfold increase in the number of Australian adolescents presenting at public gender clinics for treatment for gender dysphoria over the past eight years. Will the minister please explain to the Senate what the Albanese government will do to understand this alarming— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not familiar with the article that Senator Hanson refers to, but I would go back to my original answer, which is that if young people and their families are seeking support and assistance for health care and health advice, through whatever means, and if there is an increase in that, that is not necessarily—in fact, that is not a bad thing.</para>
<para>We want people to be accessing the services and care—health care, legal advice, mental health support, whatever they need—in order to get the services they want and need and should receive. These are really difficult and complex situations that young people are navigating, and they need access to the full range of support. If they are accessing those services, good on them. I hope their families are getting the right support as well and that they are able to receive the care that they need from a country that provides that kind of support for them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, is there a second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> (—) (): As responsible leaders, we all want the best evidence based outcomes for young Australians. Will the minister support the referral of these matters for inquiry so the Senate may investigate the causes of this increase in gender dysphoria and explore the long-term health impact of puberty blockers and cross-sex hormone treatments on Australia's young people? Regardless of the fact of what Senator Pratt has said, it's about having an inquiry so all Australians can hear what's being said by parents, by children, by the medical profession as well, so it should be— <inline font-style="italic">(time expired).</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that a motion will be moved later today, and our voting intention will be made clear when that question is put. I haven't specifically looked at the referral closely. It doesn't fall under my area of responsibility at this stage, but we will have a voting position that is clear on that. Again, I would say that these are not necessarily matters that the Senate is best placed to determine on access to healthcare services. I think the responsibility of the federal government is to make sure that the service system is there and that young people and their families are able to use them if they need to in a whole range of healthcare circumstances.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>42</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Minister Wong, the Minister representing the Prime Minister. I refer to the secret Labor government report based on October data titled 'Estimated impacts of CFPS'—coal fired power stations—'and associated mine closures' in <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">Australia</inline><inline font-style="italic">n</inline> today. Is it correct that this report models regional job losses in the Hunter, projected unemployment, loss of income to local communities, loss of taxation revenue and loss of household consumption expenditure in local communities? When will the minister and the government release the report in full?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you to the senator for the question. I regret to admit that I may not have read every report in <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">he Australian</inline> recently. I find it often better to be selective about what I read. But I would make this point: what we saw under the last nine years in the electricity sector was I think four gigawatts of dispatchable power exit the system and only one gigawatt come in. We saw decisions made by the market.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance. This is about a specific government report.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> Your question was extremely wide-ranging, and it also referred to a report in <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">Australian—</inline></para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! It's not a debating point. You also referred to a report in <inline font-style="italic">T</inline><inline font-style="italic">he Australian</inline> and asked the minister to comment that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was simply making the point that there have already been closures and the market refusing to invest in coal-fired power because of the lack of policy certainty. I appreciate the tone with which the senator asked the question so I'll try not to divert into the response which talks about the last nine years. I would make the point that we do believe providing the market with certainty around transition is important. That is the lowest cost way for this transition to occur. Those on this side actually think that you try to get the market to work rather than having taxpayers' funds prop up coal fired power, which was the position that some on the other side argued. I've been upfront with you, Senator. I'm sorry, I'm not familiar with the actual article in question and whether it refers to a—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> I don't read every article in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline>, Senator McKenzie; I apologise! It's just not the first priority in terms of reading. But, anyway, that's okay. But I will endeavour to see if the report— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I again refer to this secret report named <inline font-style="italic">Estimated </inline><inline font-style="italic">impacts of CFPS and associated coal</inline><inline font-style="italic">-</inline><inline font-style="italic">mine closures</inline>. It has been reported in that article that this secret report shows a spike in Hunter unemployment—and about 800 local jobs. Is this distressing news for the Hunter region correct or is it erroneous?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not accepting the assertion around 'secret report' in an article that—I have been upfront with you, Senator Cadell—I have not read. But I can say to you that the worst thing for communities is a lack of—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cadell</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to table the—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The senator is seeking leave to table a newspaper article. Is leave—</para>
<para>A government senator: It's a section of the report we're referring to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the answer is no, Senator Cadell.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cadell</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Oh, you want to keep it secret!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If you—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you done? Can I keep talking or would you like to—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're always so pleased when you and Senator Rennick make contributions, Senator Van! What I was going to say to you, Senator Cadell—two points. One is that there is a usual process for the consideration of tabling, which we will observe as a courtesy and a convention. Secondly, I would make the point that what is bad for communities is lack of policy certainty and unplanned exits of generation from the system, which is what occurred under the chaos of the previous government. We have no intention of that repeating. We are going to ensure we deal with this transition, which we have been upfront about, in a way that recognises the need to ensure security of supply and— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cadell, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again I refer to the same document, <inline font-style="italic">Estimated impacts of CFPS and associated coal</inline><inline font-style="italic">-</inline><inline font-style="italic">mine closures</inline>. Minister, can you confirm that it's correct that the report is modelled on the assumption that there will be a loss of 30 per cent of income for coal-fired power station workers and mine workers in the Hunter? And is the Hunter region the sole focus of this report, or is it wider and the government has got job losses across Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, I'm not going to confirm that, for the reasons I've articulated previously. What I would say to those opposite is this. The majority of the global economy has committed to net zero by 2050. If we are not in a position to compete in that global economy, that is what will affect Australia's GDP growth, Australian jobs and the prosperity of future generations. I know you all want to think we can live in the past and we can go back to the 1950s, but, if you're committed to net zero, you're committed to transitioning the Australian economy.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Minister Wong—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The difference between you and us is we will have a plan—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will have a plan. We will implement a plan—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong!</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will ensure that we increase Australia's—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I had to call the minister then about five times because there's so much noise in here my voice can't be heard.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Canavan   ! I am asking you to listen in silence to the remaining time the minister has. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If those opposite are also committed to net zero, I hope they have a plan too, because we have one and we will implement it and we will give people certainty.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Asylum Seekers</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My minister—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That could actually be a Freudian slip!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr! Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I might start again. My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs, Senator Watt, and, despite the jovial start, it is a serious question. Minister, according to the Department of Home Affairs, there are 92 people who arrived by boat to seek asylum in Australia still stranded on Nauru. It seems from answers in Senate estimates this week that the government has no idea how many have been left to languish in Papua New Guinea and, in fact, couldn't care less. But I can inform the government that that number is 94.</para>
<para>Minister, it's been almost 10 years since a Labor government first exiled those people offshore. Why will your Labor government not offer those 186 people temporary resettlement in Australia so they can be cared for and supported here while arrangements are being made for their permanent resettlement in a third country?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a very serious question, and I don't think that any Australian is happy about the fact that people have been in detention offshore for as long as they have, but our government was very clear going to the election that our policy in relation to people on Nauru was that we would support third country resettlement. That is something that we said a very long time before the election, and the fundamental problem here is that it took so long for the former government to do anything about the resettlement of these people. We all remember the years that an offer was on the table from the New Zealand government to resettle people from Nauru and it didn't happen. If the former government had taken up that option of resettling people in New Zealand, we should have been in a position where no-one was still in Nauru. But, of course, that was not taken by the former government, and that offer from New Zealand remained unanswered. We are certainly continuing to work with a number of third countries to consider facilitating resettlement, and that remains our policy.</para>
<para>In the meantime, as Senator McKim may be aware, we have also made a commitment to make permanent the very large number of people who are in Australia on temporary protection visas, who have been on those for far too long and have been left to languish in that situation while on Australian soil. So we are doing a lot of work across a range of visa categories. I was talking yesterday about the work that we're undertaking to clear the visa backlog as well, but our position remains that people on Nauru should be resettled in third countries, and we continue to work very hard with those countries and the people themselves to enable that to happen.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There are over 5,000 people who have arrived in Australia by boat to seek asylum since 2013, and over 2,000 of that 5,000 were never actually transferred to either Manus Island or Nauru. People from the same country arrived on the same boat at the same time, and they were separated to totally different futures by completely arbitrary decisions. Why are some of them now worthy of permanent protection in Australia while others remain abandoned in offshore detention?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McKim. I welcome Senator McKim recognising that our government has committed to make permanent the very large number of people who the former government left languishing on temporary protection visas. That is a position that we always opposed. We thought it was extremely unfair for people who had been granted those temporary protection visas to remain lacking certainty from year to year, and of course there's a massive cost to taxpayers in requiring the regular processing and reprocessing of people on those temporary protection visas. So we are undertaking a lot of work to make that happen. It's not an easy process because of the sheer number of people who are on those temporary protection visas, but it's something that we remain committed to.</para>
<para>The people who are on temporary protection visas have been found to be refugees and are owed our protection, and that's why our government is committed to ensuring that they get permanent protection, which is what they should have been granted in the first place. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's like an episode of <inline font-style="italic">Utopia</inline> in this place at times! Minister, nearly a year ago the Morrison government callously washed its hands of responsibility for the people in that cohort still in exile in Papua New Guinea and abandoned them in a place which is not safe and does not support them. Some of them are dying there now. Will your government reverse that cynical decision and accept responsibility for the people that the Labor Party sent there 10 years ago?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's good that Senator McKim has been able to get his video for his social media, which is what we know that was about and what it's always about for Senator McKim. If Senator McKim was genuinely concerned about these issues he would be working with our government to assist us to implement the policy that we took to the election. But we know that it's never about the facts, it's never about the substance with the Greens. It continues to be—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, you've asked your question. I'll ask you listen in silence.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>He provided an inflammatory response. He deserved what he got.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, I don't need commentary from you either. I've asked for silence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's disappointing that for the Greens these issues are always more about the social media clip or about the stunt rather than the substance.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Exhibit A, B, C, D, E and F.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I refer to standing order 193 in relation to imputation of improper motives. Senator McKim cares deeply about this issue. He has a right to ask questions without having improper motives imputed to him.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, on the same point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's the exactly the point of order I was about to make. You're entitled to ask questions in this place without having your motives impugned in such a way. That is, quite frankly, a disgraceful accusation from Senator Watt and he should withdraw it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm going to ask both senators—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, I'm responding. Senator McKim, your question in my view was asked in an extremely aggressive way. I do appreciate you have a lot of passion about the question, as do a range of senators in here on the questions that they ask. But in my view it was asked in a very aggressive way. I would remind Senator Watt of the point of order and I would ask him to answer your question in a respectful way. I'm asking all senators to listen respectfully as well. Senator Ruston on the point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order. The fact is that the question was asked as to whether the motives of the asker of the question were impugned by the comments by the minister. Are you actually not requesting for him to withdraw that imputation?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, what I heard was—I'm more than happy to look at this on the record—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, please resume your seat—was a comment about the party, not the individual. If I'm wrong on that, I'll come back and correct. I have ruled on that. Senator Hanson-Young, I'll come to you. I've got Senator Scarr on his feet. Just to be clear, what I heard was a reference to the Greens. Senator Wong?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that Senator McKim has asked the minister to withdraw. I'd ask you to call the minister.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw any imputation against Senator McKim that I may have made. The point I'm trying to make is these are very serious issues. Senator McKim knows that not only I but every member of the government takes these issues very seriously. That's why since taking office we have been putting so much effort into both third party resettlement and also the processing of people, thousands of people, who were left languishing on temporary protection visas when we took office. We will continue to do that, and we don't need these sorts of performances that are often undertaken in this chamber by the Greens.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pacific Region</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Earlier this week I met with participants in the Pacific Australia Emerging Leaders Summit. My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Wong. Can you tell us how the Albanese Labor government is building stronger partnerships with the countries of the Pacific family and the Pacific region as a whole and how that is going?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, it's your question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I apologise. I was distracted by a discussion with the leader. Would you mind repeating the question? I'll make sure there's additional time post three o'clock.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, please repeat the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Wong. Earlier this week I met with participants in the Pacific Australian Emerging Leaders Summit. Can you tell us how the Albanese Labor government is building stronger partnerships with the countries of the Pacific family and the Pacific region as a whole?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bilyk and I apologise that Senator Birmingham and I were so engrossed that I didn't hear a question that I had in fact spoken with her about the importance of asking. I acknowledge and will come to those members of the Pacific family who are here today in the gallery.</para>
<para>We are seeking to build a stronger Pacific family by showing up and listening, by acting on climate change and by boosting our security cooperation and development assistance. The government's investment in maritime security, climate action, labour mobility, health and education will help our regional co-partners become more economically resilient, develop critical infrastructure and provide their own security. The investments the Albanese government has put in place will deliver on our commitments to build a stronger and more united Pacific family and a peaceful, prosperous and resilient region.</para>
<para>As foreign minister since the election, I've had the privilege of undertaking seven separate visits to the Pacific, visiting 11 countries and, importantly, attending the Pacific Islands Forum in Fiji with the Prime Minister and Minister Conroy, the Minister for International Development and the Pacific. In addition, the Deputy Prime Minister has visited PNG, Nauru, Tonga and Fiji, where he signed a landmark status of forces agreement. Minister Conroy has visited Fiji, PNG and Solomon Islands and last week attended in Vanuatu the first in-person Pacific Community ministerial conference—SPC—since the onset of the pandemic.</para>
<para>Australia is a proud founding member of the SPC, which is the largest scientific and technical regional organisation in the Pacific. For 75 years SPC has brought the Pacific together in the Pacific way for members to achieve our shared ambitions and face our shared challenges. I know Minister Conroy was so pleased to represent Australia in this important forum.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How is the Albanese Labor government responding to the needs and the priorities of the Pacific family?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bilyk. One of the things that we have been very focused on communicating is that our partnerships in the region will be guided by Pacific priorities. Communities and leaders across the blue Pacific have been clear about the impact of the three Cs. This was part of the discussion of the leaders discussion at the Pacific Islands Forum. The three Cs are climate, COVID and contest. This is articulated in the <inline font-style="italic">2050 strategy for the Blue Pacific </inline><inline font-style="italic">Continent</inline>, endorsed by forum leaders this year, and I was very pleased to be with Prime Minister Bainimarama and other Pacific leaders at the UN when this was launched. It is a vision for the Pacific's economic, environmental and strategic future written by and written for Pacific nations and Pacific peoples. At the heart is the simple concept that the Pacific knows best what its priorities are and how to achieve them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that answer. Minister, how is the Albanese Labor government elevating Pacific voices on the world stage and supporting Pacific emerging leaders?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When it comes to climate action, the nations of the Pacific have led the way for a long time. I remember as climate minister being struck by the power and sincerity of the voice of Pacific island nations on climate change, well ahead of where the domestic debate was in Australia. They have called on us to act, we have heard them and we have responded. We are honoured that all Pacific Islands Forum governments have supported Australia's bid to co-host with the Pacific COP31. How we deal with the climate crisis now is central to the future we leave young people and future generations.</para>
<para>I want to acknowledge and welcome the impressive group of Pacific scholars and researchers joining us here today. I pay tribute to the work you're doing to chart a course for your own futures and the future of our shared region. Young leaders from Fiji, Samoa, Aotearoa New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, Kiribati, Tonga, Solomon Islands and New Caledonia have been participating in a colloquium through ANU, and we welcome you here today. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Dividend Imputation</title>
          <page.no>47</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. During the federal election campaign the now Prime Minister and now Treasurer promised there would be no changes to Australia's franking credits regime. In January 2021 he said, 'I can confirm Labor will not be taking any changes to franking credits to the next election.' Does the recent budget measure titled 'Improving the integrity of off-market share buy-backs' involve changes to franking credits?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The measures that were announced in the budget are completely unrelated to the proposed changes to dividends in the 2019 election, which, as those in this place know, we did not take to the 2022 election.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is correct that this budget measure will see retirees and investors pay $550 million in extra tax?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll refer the member to the figures outlined in the budget papers.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Dean Smith</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The budget measure clearly says $550 million in extra tax—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, was this your second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Dean Smith</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, it wasn't.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've invited you to make your second supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister rule out further changes to the franking credits regime under this government and can the minister explain how retirees can trust anything this government says given its broken promise on franking credits?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There's no broken promise on franking credits. The measures that the government has agreed to around focusing on tax loopholes have been announced in the budget.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that further questions be placed on notice the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline></para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>48</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Human Services</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>During question time, I committed to Senator Liddle to provide additional information, which I now do. In the cybersecurity space within Services Australia there are day-to-day operations as well as administrative functions. There are contractors, that will be leaving the agency, that work on administrative functions in the cybersecurity space but not in the day-to-day cybersecurity operations or hardening of the cybersecurity systems. Services Australia is confident cybersecurity will be maintained.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia Post</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senat</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>or WATT (—) (): In question time last week, I took elements of a question asked by Senator Hanson to me on notice. I've written to Senator Hanson to provide an answer. I now table that answer for the information of the Senate.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>48</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Answers to Questions</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by ministers to questions without notice asked today.</para></quote>
<para>I'm going to start with the responses from Senator Wong to Senator Birmingham's question about estimates and accountability and transparency. It is clear with this Labor government that it's not what they do, but it's what they say. They're not being transparent, they're not being accountable, but they're saying they are. Indeed, before the election the Prime Minister said that the Australian people deserve transparency and accountability, but what we found out in the last 16 hours is that this Labor government are reducing estimates—the time for non-government senators to ask questions of the government as to how public moneys are expended. We have found out, under Labor's proposals for the sitting schedule in the coming year, that they've reduced the estimates schedule by 25 per cent. This has overturned decades of convention that there are at least four weeks of estimates each year—estimates where non-government senators, regardless of who is in power, Labor or the coalition, can ask questions of the government. What we find with this Labor government, who promised transparency and accountability, is that they're doing everything but that. Indeed, transparency and accountability have just popped outside of this building. They've called a cab or an Uber and they're heading to the airport and getting the heck out of Canberra.</para>
<para>That is what we're seeing under this Labor government. We're seeing a Labor government who, for example, with the sitting schedule, promised family-friendly hours. Now, I'm happy to sit here each night until midnight. My family is not here in Canberra. For many senators here—most senators—their families are not here in Canberra. Labor promised family-friendly hours. But, under the sitting schedule, they've made it harder for senators from states like WA, where my colleague Senator O'Sullivan comes from, to actually get home and see their families on weekends. Labor have extended the sitting hours. They continue to extend the sitting hours. On this side of the chamber we don't have a problem with trying to assist the government in achieving its legislative program, but we do have a problem with the hypocrisy of a Labor Party who come into this chamber and talk about transparency and accountability yet do anything but be transparent and accountable.</para>
<para>I wonder, is this reluctance to hold four weeks of estimates in calendar year 2023 something to do with secrets, something to do with, I don't know, dodgy deals? Is there something that the Labor government don't want us to ask questions about? Looking at the estimates over the last couple of weeks, we've found out, for example, through looking at the budget papers and through asking questions of officials at the table, that at that jobsfest, that talkfest that was masquerading as a jobsfest, this Labor government spent $7,000 on a band. Now, fair play to the band. We all love live music—brilliant. But the government spent $7,000 on a band for an official function. Is that a good use of taxpayer money? Taxpayers paid for this. We found that out through the estimates process.</para>
<para>Is it because the government does not wish us to prosecute and ask questions about energy policy in Australia?—remembering that this Labor government, this Labor Prime Minister, promised 97 times before the election that they will reduce power bills by $275. Yet in their budget papers we were able to find out that actually power bills are going to go up by 56 per cent. So, what this government is doing is deliberately limiting the ability of non-government senators to ask questions of ministers as to policies and to ask questions of officials as to how public money is being expended.</para>
<para>This is about accountability. It is about standing up for the rights of taxpayers who fund the government of Australia and asking on behalf of taxpayers where that money is being spent and whether that money is being spent appropriately. We find out from this Labor Party that they are scared of transparency and accountability. No matter the words that come out of them, they all want to go and hide under the doona because they do not like being held to account.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There has been a change of government, and this is the government that is letting the light in. And the hypocrisy of those who've come in here with this faux outrage about having one week less to review an event that's not occurring is simply a complete misrepresentation of what's going on. To be clear, MYEFO, the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook that is provided to the Australian people—we would be familiar with that—normally happens around Christmas time. And when we return after the Christmas break, the MYEFO document, with all that financial information, is then generally subject to review by the process of estimates. That is how it works.</para>
<para>But we've had an election this year, people. The former government seems to have missed that: there was an election. And because their figures were so lacking in transparency, because they were so dodgy and so unclear—like their own leader, who has been censured on this very day in the other chamber, censured in this very parliament today—they tried to construct a false narrative here about what is going on. The reality is that we are all for transparency, unlike the government-that-was under Mr Morrison.</para>
<para>I think Senator Birmingham should be a bit careful with these sorts of questions. He should know something about this lack of accountability, about the government that he helped to lead. He was the minister representing that Prime Minister, Prime Minister Scott Morrison. Did he stand up to him? Did he stand up then? But as recently as a few months ago, Senator Birmingham was part of the cover-up that we're now seeing revealed since the change of government. There's the transparency where we can finally see a Prime Minister who was so hellbent on keeping everything secret that he didn't even tell his own cabinet ministers that he had taken over five of their jobs! Five of their jobs he had taken over!</para>
<para>They want to ask questions about a document that does not exist, because we just had a budget in October. How many questions did they actually leave unanswered before they left us? It wasn't just parliamentary questions on notice that were left unanswered; as he left, the Prime Minister had a total of 128 unanswered parliamentary questions on notice. There were 128 that he hadn't answered! And parliamentary questions on notice were just one part of this. The Prime Minister's own department had a total of 391 unanswered questions from Senate estimates—391! So when this group of members of the now opposition come in here and say: 'We need transparency! We need accountability!' we agree. And so do the Australian people. It's why they turfed you lot out and brought us in. They were sick of the deception, they were sick of the lies and they were sick of the cover-ups. Those cover-ups have become clear since we've come into government, had a look at the books and put out a proper budget in October to let the Australian people know what's really going on with the finances of this country.</para>
<para>But that's not the only thing they covered up. We tried so hard in this place, in this Senate, to hold that government to account. I have notes from a matter of public importance speech that I gave last year. The topic of that debate was the Prime Minister's inability to accept responsibility for any of the failures and policy stuff-ups that had littered his three years in office. The Prime Minister's answer to the car park rorts was, 'The minister made no decision.' His answer to the sports rorts was that it was misleading parliament. His answer about an alleged rape in the ministerial wing was that he had no idea about it. His answer to the bushfires which burnt homes in my home state was, 'I don't hold a hose.'</para>
<para>His own members were asking him about what was going on with the government and he hid from them that he had taken over five of their jobs. This is an opposition that has not a leg to stand on when coming in and asking questions of this transparent government, which is telling the truth to the Australian people and isn't hiding behind a Prime Minister who is such a deceiver that he can't even tell his own people what he's doing. The truth has to be told; Senate estimates should follow a traditional procedure and should be available to shadow ministers on the other side to ask questions—no doubt. But this is a stunt, because MYEFO doesn't exist and there is really no need for the review of a document that will not exist— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expire</inline><inline font-style="italic">d)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, please. Senator Van is anxious to begin his contribution.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>49</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am indeed, Deputy President. I rise to take note of the answer to the question to Minister Watt about power generation, something which I know something about. Like some on the other side, I spent the best part of my career working in and around the energy industry, so I know something about it. I would also like to take note of Minister Wong's earlier slur against me when she was comparing me with Senator Rennick. She was in the chamber when I was giving my two-minute speech about my visit to COP 27, and how important I thought it was for coalition senators to be there. I didn't see my very good friend Senator Rennick there. I know Senator Cox was there, but I also didn't see her there.</para>
<para>In this place only a matter of weeks ago when we were debating the legislating of the 43 per cent target I said in my speech, and maybe those opposite can show this <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> to Senator Wong:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Personally, I am more ambitious than those opposite as to what I would like to see our emissions reduction target be. However, I am not blind to reality, unlike those opposite. I believe we need to be as pragmatic as we are ambitious.</para></quote>
<para>Why am I saying that? JP Morgan's <inline font-style="italic">Annual Energy Paper</inline> explicitly stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Countries that reduce production of fossil fuels, under the assumption that renewables can quickly replace them, face substantial economic and geopolitical risks.</para></quote>
<para>If the energy transition is to succeed, we cannot disconnect the generation methods we currently have before we have a replacement for them.</para>
<para>That's what those opposite have not yet addressed. They've talked about their plan, which was put together by RepuTex, I think it was. When I last worked with them, while I was consulting, they were a polling firm. I'm sure they've learned a lot about energy policy since then, but I'm not sure how those opposite see that as a viable energy plan.</para>
<para>Anyone who starts talking about renewables without talking about firming doesn't know what they're talking about when it comes to energy supply, sovereign energy security and bringing down emissions. The two just aren't the same. None of this can work in isolation. You can't just string wires to some place out in Woop Woop where someone's decided to build a solar farm or a wind farm and think that that's going to give you a good return on your money or not push up power bills. I guarantee you, it will. The $23 billion or $24 billion that was in the budget? Add a zero to that, would be my best estimate. I'm sure I can find ways to cite and prove that.</para>
<para>Batteries are not going to be the answer to firming. They're just not. No-one at COP was talking about batteries being a grid-scale firming source. They may be in the future. Hopefully technology will allow them to be. Hopefully China might still sell them to us at some point. Hopefully Australia could even be a manufacturer of our own since we produce a lot of the minerals that are critical for batteries. But at the moment, and in the foreseeable future—out to 2030—they are not going to be grid-scale.</para>
<para>JP Morgan's annual energy paper stated that putting more renewable energy on the grid will not guarantee lower prices, because energy prices rest on an average cost of generation, not just the actual cost of power. No, it's not just the photons or the knots of wind. It's how it is delivered on a continuous, supported basis. That's the bit that we're not hearing from the other side.</para>
<para>As AEMO's 2022 ISP states, we need to treble the firming capacity from dispatchable storage, including pumped hydro and gas-fired generation to firm renewables that are coming onto the grid.</para>
<para>I do my homework and I've seen and I've found that there are actually some Australian companies that deserve to be backed and that are producing firming sources that might actually provide grid-scale firming. There are also Australian companies delivering printed solar that we can put at the source of use, not where we want to run some wires to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to respond to the line of questioning put by the opposition to the government today with respect to the proposed parliamentary sitting calendar for 2023. We come into this place—and, yes, it is getting very close to the end of the year—in a week when this government has passed and looks likely to be passing some significant legislative reforms, not only with integrity and the NACC bills but also to provide some of the lowest-paid workers with some real wage increase opportunities, and an increase in the productivity of this country. Yet those opposite choose to go down a route of distraction, pretending that, somehow, the parliamentary calendar for next year and the way we conduct ourselves in this place is the single-biggest issue of the week. Regardless of what they may say, the reality is that a lot of people who watch this place will be going, 'What on earth are the coalition senators on about?' When their cost of living is going through the roof, you lot come into this place and use our sitting calendar as somehow the biggest political issue of the day. Talk about being in the bubble!</para>
<para>Just for the record: as everyone should, always go to the source, or the documents. During question time I went and downloaded this year's calendar from the start of the year—when you lot were in government. I can inform the chamber today that there weren't four weeks of estimates; there were just three weeks of estimates. There is no 25 per cent decrease of estimates. Your government only proposed three weeks of estimates for this year—three weeks only! In addition to that, when you compare it to what this government's proposal is for this chamber, we are sitting on every single Monday—unlike the coalition, who propose that we sit three Mondays less compared to the calendar proposed by the government. In addition to this, this government has also put on the table four additional days on a Friday, if required. Then, on top of that, we have an additional week, making 20 weeks of the year in our sitting calendar—compared to your 19 weeks. It's important we deal with the facts. All you have to do is download the calendar from the start of this year that your lot had proposed and put to this chamber. It is important that we deal with the facts, which is something that the opposition are not very good at doing. They are not very good at dealing with the facts.</para>
<para>I also want to note—and I know Senator Birmingham has raised these objections with Senator Wong in the chamber and made some interjections earlier—it is the case there won't be a MYEFO this year, and, as has been past practice, there is no need to have that extra week of estimates. That is what the Leader of the Government in the Senate articulated today during question time. That is a very simple explanation as to why we're not having an additional week of estimates, as per the proposed draft before us today. It is important that we always look at what previous governments have done, whether they were Labor or Liberal. It is important that we look at the previous sitting calendars, and it is always important that we look at what the facts are.</para>
<para>I just wanted to make those few short points today. It is hypocritical, coming from the opposition—who also didn't want to sit on Saturday; they made it very clear they did not want to sit this Saturday to deal with the changes to the Fair Work Act to give the lowest-paid workers in this country a pay rise. Your side of politics said 'no way' to sitting longer, 'no way' to giving low-paid workers an increase to their wages.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to sit here on a Friday or on a Saturday, as long as low-paid workers get a pay rise, Senator Birmingham.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've got to say: desperation comes to the fore. There's a pattern emerging here from the government. They talked a big game before the election. Then they come into this place, having been elected, slip-sliding away from their promises left, right and centre. There's no mention of the $275 energy price reduction promised by the government in this place anymore. That's gone, and gone with it is any sense of transparency.</para>
<para>Senator Ciccone comes in here and puts on a bright face. I've been here nearly 20 years, Senator Ciccone, and I've never seen a year where there's been only three weeks of estimates. Senator Ciccone, can I tell you, additional estimates in February is not just about MYEFO. It's about annual reports. It's about a range of other documents that are tabled and published in the parliament, so that the Senate can scrutinise those documents and processes. That's what it is about. The government tries to narrow down the target and narrow down the story to suit their rhetoric, but really what's happening is that there is a 25 per cent cut in scrutiny next year.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, your maths is pretty shabby, because normally there's four weeks of estimates in a sitting year. As I said, I've been here a little while and seen a few years and sat around the table for a few years of estimates. It's a 25 per cent cut next year in scrutiny by this government. They said they were going to have more scrutiny, they wanted to be a more open government, they wanted to see more scrutiny, but that's not what we see in practice.</para>
<para>Senator Wong said during her answer to Senator Birmingham's question that we wouldn't answer a question about sports grants in estimates. I sat there through all those estimates as sports minister and I answered every question. I underwent forensic questioning from Senator Farrell at every estimates. I answered every question. So Senator Wong can make the accusation, but I was there. I answered every question. They try to deflect, they try to blame someone else, but at the end of the day they're not interested in scrutiny. They're trying to slide from scrutiny. They talk about us coming to the chamber, which is the process, with support of other parties around the chamber in respect of the sitting schedule. Yet there was no consultation with the opposition with respect to what the sitting schedule might look like.</para>
<para>In circumstances where there have been major changes or significant changes to the way the schedule looked, there's always been consultation. I don't expect Senator Ciccone to understand that. He hasn't had that level of experience in that process. But there have been plenty of occasions when there have been significant changes to the sitting schedule that have been done in consultation, particularly with the opposition, so that we knew that we could get agreement in the chamber and, in fact, sometimes under the threat of using the chamber.</para>
<para>But what we have this time is a 25 per cent cut in scrutiny through estimates. Additional Fridays, for which there is no standing orders or schedule of programs, so do we get a question time? You can't answer that question. There's no process been undergone there. How come this hasn't been referred to the Procedure Committee so there can be a process? There's no process. It is a complete shambles. The government try to pass it off by saying 'Well, there's no MYEFO so we don't need to do it'. They're not looking at all the processes of the government that are scrutinised in estimates, including annual reports and other reports that are tabled in this place and the opportunity for senators across the whole parliament to scrutinise. We should have that opportunity. They talk about transparency but they don't practice it. There's the secret report that we hear about today about the impacts on the coal industry from the government's policies. They don't want communities to understand what the impacts of those policies are going to be. They talked a big game before the election about what might be, what they might do. They slip and slide, try to blame everybody else. The real pattern is that it's always someone else's fault. It could be the department. What was it we heard the other day? It was a typo in one particular circumstance. They're not prepared to provide the scrutiny and transparency they talked about before the election.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Asylum Seekers, Asylum Seekers, Infrastructure</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers from the Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs (Senator Watt) to questions without notice asked today by Senator Cox, relating to the Middle Arm Sustainable Development Precinct, and me, relating to asylum seekers.</para></quote>
<para>It's been almost a decade since people were first exiled to Manus Island and Nauru, and we should never forget that they were exiled there by a Labor government. Now, nearly a decade later, Labor is back in power, but what is Labor actually doing to address the crisis and the human rights' calamity of the humanitarian nightmare that it actually started nearly a decade ago? You know what the answer is to that? Nothing; Labor is doing nothing to address it. It's been a decade of murder, rape, child sex abuse, armed assault, the deliberate destruction of countless lives and the deliberate denial of the necessities of life—food, drinking water, electricity, medical support. This has been a foul chapter in our country's story—a dark chapter, a bloody chapter, in our country's story—and it's time we wrote the ending to that chapter. But this is a bipartisan policy of cruelty.</para>
<para>The people left in Papua New Guinea and Nauru are like the corpses that used to be impaled on the walls of medieval cities to send a message to other desperate people that they should not try to enter. They are human billboards, exploited by the Labor and Liberal parties. What is the Labor Party, the government of the day, doing about this? Absolutely nothing except continuing the cruelty. They continue to wash their hands of the people who are in Papua New Guinea, and they continue to abandon the people of Nauru. It's not good enough. This country is a better country than this, and the government must do better.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question to Minister Watt was very, very clear about Middle Arm, the sustainable precinct in Darwin Harbour. There was $1.9 billion—we heard just right here in this chamber—given through the equity funds. You heard me talk about the fossil fuels and the 75 per cent of emissions that would be released through the Northern Territory on this one project.</para>
<para>The name of it suggests that it is a clean energy project. Well, that's 'greenwashing' we know, and actually it's greenwashing that's been government endorsed. They are removing words like 'petrochemicals' from websites in the Northern Territory. The minister couldn't even answer whether they actually had any hand in that, yet, when you go onto the website, it's very clear that they're in partnership—the federal government and the Northern Territory government.</para>
<para>There's been lots of conversations. But they cop some flack, because they go off to COP27 and their minister talks about how great it's been that they co-chaired the global climate fund and are helping other nations but they're not helping First Nations people. Larrakia people, in the Darwin Harbour area, have rejected this actual project. The lack of consultation is unbelievable, and yet this government will not even the answer about the public information that appears on this website that, miraculously, just disappeared weeks ago, and the Minister says, 'Oh, I don't know about that information.' He should maybe have look at the paper one day and see where that information is, because, clearly, they may be asleep at the wheel, just like the last government were.</para>
<para>This project was all part of the gas-fired recovery from COVID. Then we talk about the mangrove alliance. Well, here's Minister Plibersek from the other place, coming out in a joint statement with Minister Bowen, talking about signing up to the Global Mangrove Alliance to protect and restore, and increase mangroves absorbing more carbon to 20 per cent by 2030. Well, you can't do that while you're opening up fossil fuel projects in the same precinct. You cannot do that. You are not going store any carbon doing that.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHITE</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation, I give notice of my intention, at the giving of notices on the next day of sitting, to withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 5 for five sitting days after today, proposing the disallowance of the Financial Sector Reform (Hayne Royal Commission Response) (Hawking of Financial Products) Regulations 2021.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senator Ayres for today, for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senator Thorpe for 30 November 2022, for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Health Insurance (Extended Medicare Safety Net) Amendment (Indexation) Determination 2022</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in accordance with subsection 10B(2) of the <inline font-style="italic">Health Insurance Act 1973</inline>, the Senate approves the Health Insurance (Extended Medicare Safety Net) Amendment (Indexation) Determination 2022, made under subsection 10B(1) of the Act on 7 November 2022 [F2022L01458].</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education and Other Legislation Amendment (Abolishing Indexation and Raising the Minimum Repayment Income for Education and Training Loans) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1355" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Education and Other Legislation Amendment (Abolishing Indexation and Raising the Minimum Repayment Income for Education and Training Loans) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>53</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the law relating to higher education, vocational education and training, social security and student assistance, and for related purposes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>53</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum and seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Today I introduce the Education and Other Legislation Amendment (Abolishing Indexation and Raising the Minimum Repayment Income for Education and Training Loans) Bill 2022 to tackle the student debt crisis.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Let me say right at the start, education is a basic human right. It is not a privilege. TAFE and University should be fully funded by the government and should be fee-free for everyone, whether you are leaving school, changing careers, retraining later in life or looking to gain new skills and knowledge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the current system, students come out of university and TAFE saddled with tens of thousands of dollars of study debt that can take them decades to pay off. More than three million people in Australia are shackled with a total of around $74bn in HELP debt alone. More than 1.5 million of those people have debts greater than $20,000. This is unsustainable and wholly unfair. That's why we went to the last election with a policy to cancel all student debt.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We are in a cost of living crisis. Housing costs have skyrocketed, adding to this burden of study debt. This is having an enormous impact on people's lives, especially young people and women who have borne the brunt of the pandemic and are now bearing the brunt of the cost of living crisis due to rising rents, insecure work and stagnant wages.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The LNP government's terrible Job-ready graduates package that hiked up Uni fees has only made things worse. Exacerbating the problem is the fact that the Coalition government also passed legislation which significantly lowered the minimum repayment income for student loans and linked indexation of income-contingent student loans to CPI.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's no small problem, millions of people are impacted, and it's not one we can afford to ignore any longer as inflation drives up student debt and the steep cost of living bites.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Something needs to be done, and it needs to be done now.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">My bill gives this Parliament the opportunity to do just that.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While, ideally, all student debt should be wiped, this bill is a clear and immediate step to start tackling the student debt crisis while providing cost of living relief to those with a study loan as we work towards the abolition of all student debt and a future where TAFE and university are free for all.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are two elements to this bill, which will, together, deliver cost of living relief to people with study debts from July next year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">First, the bill immediately halts indexation of all study loans. Currently student debt is indexed by CPI on 1 June each year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This June, with inflation skyrocketing, a 3.9% CPI increase was applied to all student debt, adding more than $900 to the average student debt. For many students, that figure was much higher.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3.9% was the highest indexation rate in a decade. Inflation is at 7.3% now and it has not yet peaked, according to forecasts it's on track to be even worse in 2023. This is such bad news for anyone with a student debt. As the Sydney Morning Herald reported this month "This could mean an increase of nearly $2000 for someone with an average HECS debt of $23,685. Ouch."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ouch, indeed!</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">People with a student debt are telling me this:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">This year my debt went up by more than the compulsory payments reduced it by. Paying thousands to still have my HECS debt growing is so disheartening.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">I'm literally 20 and already owe more than 20,000, that's more than 1000</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> for every year of my life.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">My Hecs & Student loan comes to 80k, indexation will mean all I have paid in the last 12 months comes to nothing.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">I've just finished my degree (mum of 2 who staggered through it during lockdowns) and about to enter the full time</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> working world. Feeling like I'm behind before I even begin.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">I'm going to pay about $3500 in HECS this year and at the end of the year my HECS debt will increase by $4760. Absolute nightmare.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We must stop this pain of ever ballooning student debt. It does nothing but make life harder for so many, just for studying.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill I have introduced immediately stops any indexation of student debts going forward, effectively freezing debt levels and preventing the nasty jump in debts we're headed for next year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The second part of our bill lifts the current minimum repayment threshold of $48,361 to the median wage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This means that no one with a study debt will repay a cent of that debt until they're earning above the wage of around $62,400. As the median wage rises, so too will the minimum repayment thresholds established by this bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This reverses the Liberals' persistent cuts to repayment thresholds that have seen thousands upon thousands of graduates forced to start repaying student loans before they've found their feet and long before they're making a median wage and can afford to make repayments. If the neo-Liberals had not made these terrible changes to drop the minimum repayment income in 2016 and 2018, the minimum repayment income today would be $63,333.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If this bill passes, more than 3.2m people—that's every person with a study debt—will see the benefits of the indexation freeze in this Bill when 1 June comes around. 54% of these people are under forty and just getting started in their post-education lives. About 60% of those who benefit are women.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But that's only the start of the benefits.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Anyone earning less than median wage would see an immediate increase to take home pay from 1 July 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Someone earning just under what the median wage is expected to be this financial year—would have more than $1,600 extra in their pockets in the 2023-24 tax year alone.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Many who earn above the median wage will also get a hip pocket benefit because the lifted thresholds mean a lower percentage of their income is being withheld for student debt repayments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Anyone earning a median wage or below will never have to make any student debt repayments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2.4 million people will benefit from the new repayment thresholds established by this bill, more than 80% of whom are under 40 and more than 60% of whom are women.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The abolition of student debt is not a new idea, nor should it be a controversial one.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If US President Joe Biden's mostly boring, mostly centrist government can wipe the student debt of more Americans than Australia has HELP debtors, then we certainly can do better.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The cancellation of study debts in the US is a credit to the work of activists and students in the US whose years of work on the issue gave a loud and clear message to the establishment that education should never be a debt sentence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In Australia, the last decade has been a particularly tortured time for students and graduates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2016 and again in 2018, fresh from a few failed attempts to jack up Uni fees, the Liberals introduced legislation which significantly lowered the minimum repayment income for student loans to hike the rate and pace of repayments. At the same time they messed with indexation, tying it to CPI instead of wages.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes were as harmful as they were nonsensical. Lowering the minimum repayment income disproportionately affected students and graduates on low-incomes and completely abandoned the principle that students should only begin repaying their debts when they earned roughly the average wage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When 2020 rolled around, the Liberals came back for another go at university fees and funding with the disastrous Job Ready Graduates package which hiked fees on students and cut funding, massively shifting the cost of delivering a university education away from the Government and onto students.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The fee changes were not small tweaks either. They more than doubled the fees for degrees like arts and commerce to more than fourteen thousand dollars a year. On average, the package drove up fees for women by 10% compared to 6% for men.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With the fee hikes came enormous cuts to teaching and learning funding that have since forced universities to teach more students with less money across the board.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These cruel funding cuts and fee hikes are further fuelling the explosion in student debt that is hurting students today.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill is an opportunity for the Labor government and cross benchers to join the Greens in supporting the interests of students.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Once you might have assumed that Labor would have no problems voting for this bill's simple measures to give those with a study debt cost of living relief and make our education system fairer for all.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But I fear Labor is no longer the party of Whitlam when it comes to education. They talk a big game from the benches but seem to have fled the field now voters have given them a run.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On this occasion, I would be glad to be proven wrong and very pleased to see Labor support this bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When the former Liberal government slashed the minimum repayment income, Labor said the changes were unfair and voted against them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When the Liberals introduced their university fee hikes and funding cuts in 2020, Labor made the correct eleventh hour decision to oppose them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But since then they have been deathly quiet on university funding. They won't even commit to reversing the atrocity of those funding cuts and fee hikes that are seeing universities forced to do more with less while students pay through the nose and face decades of debt.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">So I hope with this bill they take the opportunity to back students, women and other people struggling to pay off their study debts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ballooning student debts and government inaction can't be seen as anything other than punching students and graduates while they're down.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The hip pocket harm of having exorbitant student debt repayments withheld from paychecks isn't the only harm we're seeing done by student debt.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Only recently, we saw renewed testimony from people with study debts and lenders that outstanding HELP debts are preventing people from getting finance to be able to purchase a home or severely limiting the amount that they are able to borrow. It's tough enough as it is to find secure housing. Allowing the problem of student debt to go unaddressed will only make it worse in the months and years to come.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Even if there were no cost of living crisis, we have to be clear on the principle that underscores all our efforts for free public education and an end to student debt:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Now that we are no longer weighed down by the Liberal's attacks on the very idea of public education and training, it's time we began the work of rebuilding our education system. I won't ever miss the opportunity to remind the Government that a majority awaits them in the Senate for ambitious measures that look to the future and advance the cause of higher education and training as a universal public good, built on the principles of equity and democracy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For the Greens part, we are proudly the party of public education. We know that education at every level should be free, fully funded and properly resourced, with staff who are paid properly, valued and respected for the incredible work they do.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill is one of the pieces of the puzzle in making that vision a reality.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend the bill to the Senate.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator Whish-Wilson, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, by no later than 8 pm on 30 November 2022, the Commonwealth Government's written response to the report on the Joint World Heritage Centre/IUCN, <inline font-style="italic">Reactive monitoring mission to the Great Barrier Reef </inline><inline font-style="italic">(Australia) 2022</inline>, which was issued on or about 12 September 2022.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Human Rights (Children Born Alive Protection) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1359" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Human Rights (Children Born Alive Protection) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the chamber that Senator Babet will also sponsor the motion and the bill. I, and also on behalf of Senators Antic and Babet, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to protect children born alive (including as a result of terminations), and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">H</inline><inline font-style="italic">uman Rights (Children Born Alive Protection) Bill 2022</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>56</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum and seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">First, I would like to acknowledge the work of my former Queensland Nationals colleague and Member for Dawson, George Christensen, for all the work he did on a previous version of this Bill. I undertook to carry on that work because this issue is so important.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To protect its most vulnerable, in 1990, Australia ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Article 6 of the convention commits Australia to recognising that every child has the inherent right to life; and ensuring to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Article 24 of the convention commits Australia to recognising the right of the child to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health and to facilities for the treatment of illness and rehabilitation of health. Our nation has signed up to striving to ensure that no child is deprived of his or her right of access to such health care services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, Article 24 says Australia shall take appropriate measures to diminish infant and child mortality. In short, Australia has committed to every child having the right to life, every child having access to health care and reducing the deaths of babies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Yet, in this nation, potentially hundreds of babies are born alive as a result of abortion procedures without any significant subsequent intervention. Our most vulnerable are simply left to die. In preparing this Bill, George asked the Parliamentary Library to do some research. Despite sketchy data, they found, that in a single year, 33 babies aborted after 20 weeks gestation were born alive in Victoria while, in Queensland, 204 babies were born alive as a result of abortions over a 10-year period. In fact, in Queensland, the problem is systemic with Queensland Health's Clinical Guidelines for Termination of Pregnancy stating: 'If [during an abortion] a live birth occurs… Do not provide life sustaining treatment… Document the time and date of death.'</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">How is this policy, how are these deaths, in accordance with our international obligation as a nation to every child having the right to life, every child having access to health care and reducing the deaths of babies? How are we treating our most vulnerable, and what does it say about our nation?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Let me be clear: I am pro-life.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I think abortion is an evil. It results in the death of a child and often ongoing mental harm for a parent. I would rather no child be aborted in this country or elsewhere. But whether you are pro-life or so-called pro-choice, I do not know that anyone, but the most cold-blooded sociopath, who could say that a child born alive is not a child and thus does not have any rights.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Human Rights (Children Born Alive Protection) Bill 2022 seeks to place a duty of care on medical practitioners to provide exactly the same medical care and treatment to a child born alive as a result of an abortion as they would a child born in any other circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under this bill, breaching that duty would incur a penalty and there is a new obligation for medical practitioners to report to the Federal Department of Health on children born alive as a result of abortions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">George commissioned a survey by the recognised polling company YouGov before he initially introduced this Bill to the House. The survey found that support for a Bill such as this one is extremely strong across all sectors of the community. More than three times as many people support care for these babies than oppose care. The majority of people expect any baby should be afforded medical care, regardless of the circumstances of their birth. It is a view shared by people aged 18 to 34 and those aged over 65. It's a view shared by both men and women, and those living in the inner city and the outer regions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Some have tried to claim—quite falsely—that this bill would require doctors, under threat of penalty, to keep non-viable babies alive. This is not true.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Section 9 of the bill states that the medical care and treatment to be provided to a baby born alive as a result of an abortion to be commensurate to the circumstances, not including the fact that they were born as a result of a termination and goes on to state that this could be life-saving treatment or, indeed, palliative care as the case may be.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Some have said this bill would keep babies alive that have congenital deformities. Well, again, only if the baby was viable. And if the baby was viable but had congenital deformities, which is another way of saying the baby was born with disabilities, what is the problem? Are people saying that children born with disabilities should be left to die?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Others have claimed that this bill perpetuates a myth that children are born alive a result of abortions. The data available via the Parliamentary Library shows that to be a false claim, but even if that claim was correct—which it is not—what harm would this bill do? If no viable child is ever born alive as a result of an abortion, then this bill has no effect.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But if one child, just one, was born alive in such circumstances and that child was viable then this bill would not only have an effect, but it would be more important than probably most laws on the books because it would save a life that otherwise would have been discarded like it was medical waste.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The fact is there is little to argue against in this bill, unless of course an objector felt that a baby born alive as a result of an abortion should be left to die because it was born as a result of an abortion. Such a position would be in contravention of our international obligations under the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. Specifically, Article 6 of that convention, which states that "Australia recognises: … that every child has the inherent right to life. And "Australia: … shall ensure to the maximum extent possible the survival and development of the child."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, Article 24 of that convention, states that "Australia recognises: … the right of the child to the enjoyment of the highest attainable standard of health and to facilities for the treatment of illness and rehabilitation of health. And Australia: … shall strive to ensure that no child is deprived of his or her right of access to such health care services." And "Australia: … shall pursue full implementation of this right and (specifically) shall take appropriate measures … to diminish infant and child mortality."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Every death of a viable baby born alive as a result of an abortion that occurs in Australia means that the fundamental rights of a child enshrined in this UN convention are absent in this country.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This needs to be remedied. Lives need to be saved. This Bill, the Human Rights (Children Born Alive Protection) Bill 2022, seeks to protect the most vulnerable in our society.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In closing, I'd like to use this quote most often attributed to Mahatma Gandhi—"the true measure of any society can be found in how it treats its most vulnerable members."</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The question of whether or not this Bill is supported will be a test of the true measure of not only this chamber, or this parliament, but of our society.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>58</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Broadcasting Commission</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>58</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at the estimates hearing of the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee (Committee) on 8 November 2022, the Managing Director of the Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC) was asked to provide information relating to the remuneration of highly paid ABC staff,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Managing Director made a claim of public interest immunity in relation to the information, with reference to staff privacy, work health and safety, the statutory independence and role of the ABC and the commercial interests of the ABC, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) there has also been correspondence and Clerk's advice in relation to this matter, which has been published on the Committee's webpages, including information that the Committee has upheld the claim of public interest immunity, noting that not all members of the Committee supported the acceptance of the claim of public interest immunity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) rejects the claim of public interest immunity made by the Managing Director, noting that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) as a statutory authority, the ABC is accountable to the Senate for its expenditure of public funds,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the <inline font-style="italic">Privacy Act 1988 </inline>does not restrict the disclosure of the requested information to the Parliament,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the commercial interests of the ABC in not disclosing this information are outweighed by the acute public interest in disclosure,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) work health and safety and the statutory independence and role of the ABC are not recognised as grounds on which to make a claim of public interest immunity,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) in 2017, the Committee determined it was in the public interest to publish details of executive remuneration at Australia Post,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) it must be established that some specific harm may occur because of the disclosure of the information sought,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vii) the ABC has not offered to disclose the information sought in more general terms,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(viii) reflecting the need for greater transparency, since 2016 the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC) has been required by law to disclose the annual pay of staff earning more than £150,000, which exposed discriminatory wage practices and led to a landmark gender pay inequality case resulting in the BBC apologising and paying compensation for underpaying a former BBC employee, (See 'The ABC of gender pay parity: no transparency leaves women powerless', https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/11/22/abc-gender-pay-parity- transparency-women/ published 22 November 2022), and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ix) the public interest in the Senate being able to effectively scrutinise the expenditure of the ABC through the provision of the requested information outweighs any other impact that release of the information may have; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) orders that there be laid on the table by the Managing Director of the ABC, by no later than midday on Friday, 9 December 2022, the following information relating to the remuneration of highly-paid ABC staff for this financial year and the previous financial year:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the name and title of each ABC employee, contractor, subcontractor or other worker who has or is being paid total remuneration (as defined in the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Rule 2014 that is equal to or greater than $230,000 per annum (highly paid staff), and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the amount of total remuneration per annum paid to each highly paid staff including a breakdown of this remuneration into the following categories:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) base salary,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) performance pay and bonuses,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(C) other benefits and allowances (including overtime),</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(D) employer superannuation contributions,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(E) long-service leave,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(F) other long-term benefits, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(G) termination benefits.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government opposes the motion. Senator Henderson's attempts to obtain certain details of ABC salaries echo previous attempts by One Nation and smack of a personal vendetta against the ABC. The government supports transparency and accountability with respect to the ABC, and, as a Commonwealth entity, the ABC already discloses executive remuneration in its annual report in accordance with its obligations under the PGPA Act. The ABC also conducts an annual gender pay equity review and reports this in its annual report.</para>
<para>The ABC claimed public interest immunity in respect of Senator Henderson's recent attempt to obtain details from the ABC as part of the recent budget estimates process. The Senate Environment and Communications Legislation Committee carefully considered and ultimately accepted the ABC's public interest immunity claims that the provision of the information requested may result in unwarranted privacy concerns for identifiable employees, as well as commercial-in-confidence concerns for the ABC more generally.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 111, standing in the name of Senator Henderson and moved by Senator Askew, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:47]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Broadcasting Corporation</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>60</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) at the estimates of the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee (Committee) on 8 November 2022, the Managing Director of the Australian Broadcasting Commission (ABC) was asked to provide information relating to the roles, gender, place of work and remuneration bands for ABC employees,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Managing Director of the ABC made a claim of public interest immunity in relation to the information, with reference to staff privacy and work health and safety, and the statutory independence and commercial interests of the ABC, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) there has also been correspondence and Clerk's advice in relation to this matter which has been published on the Committee's webpages including information that the Committee has upheld the claim of public interest immunity, noting that not all members of the Committee supported the acceptance of the claim of public interest immunity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) rejects the claim of public interest immunity made by the Managing Director, noting that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the <inline font-style="italic">Privacy Act 1988 </inline>does not restrict the disclosure of the requested information to the Parliament,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) as a statutory authority, the ABC is accountable to the Senate for its expenditure of public funds,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) there is an acute public interest in transparency about the role, gender, place of work and remuneration band of ABC employees as well as how various departments, divisions, programs and offices are resourced, particularly with regards to gender pay equality and the adequacy of funding for ABC offices in regional Australia,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) the ABC has not been requested to identify any person and the salary information requested is confined to a broad salary band in $40,000 increments, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) the public interest in the Senate being able to effectively scrutinise the expenditure and operation of the ABC through the provision of the requested information outweighs any other impact that release of the information may have;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) orders that there be laid on the table by the Managing Director of the ABC by midday on Friday, 9 December 2022 tabulated information in relation to each current ABC employee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) position title or job description, categorised into departments, divisions, programs, offices or other applicable working groups,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) for the purposes of subparagraph (i):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) if a department includes multiple programs or divisions, each separate program or division must be specified, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) if an ABC employee works across multiple programs, division, offices, or other applicable working groups-the name of the entity to which the employer is currently assigned should be provided; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) gender (where such information is available), place of employment, and total remuneration per annum (as defined in the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Rule 2014), provided in terms of salary bands, starting at $00.00-$40,000, and increasing in increments of $40,000.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 112, standing in the name of Senator Henderson and moved by Senator Askew, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:52]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>61</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Attorney-General, by no later than 10 am on Thursday, 15 December 2022, all correspondence, emails, briefings, notes, meeting agendas and minutes, and other records of interactions between the Attorney-General or the Attorney-General's Department and New South Wales or Queensland authorities responsible for prisons since 1 January 2022 in relation to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the visit to Australia by the United Nations Subcommittee on Prevention of Torture in October 2022; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the implementation of the Optional Protocol to the Convention Against Torture.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) For the purposes of this order, 'New South Wales or Queensland authorities responsible for prisons' includes but is not limited to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) ministers of the New South Wales or Queensland governments;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the New South Wales Department of Communities and Justice;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Corrective Services NSW;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the Queensland Department of Justice and Attorney-General;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) Queensland Corrective Services; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) individual prisons, mental health facilities or other places of detention within New South Wales or Queensland.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will not be supporting this motion today. The subject matter for this order for the production of documents covers matters that could prejudice Commonwealth-state relations and international relations. The Commonwealth supported the recent visit by the UN Subcommittee on Prevention of Torture and other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment and makes significant efforts to facilitate the subcommittee's access to places of detention. We encourage the subcommittee to resume its visit and will continue making efforts to that end.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 101, standing in the name of Senator Shoebridge, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:57]<br />(The President—Senator Lines) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>15</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>45</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>62</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Days And Hours Of Meeting</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I amend Government Business notices of motion No. 1 and No. 2 relating to the days of meetings for 2023 and estimates, as circulated. I move the motions as amended:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the days of meeting of the Senate for 2023 be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Autumn sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 6 February to Thursday, 9 February</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 6 March to Thursday, 9 March</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 20 March to Friday, 24 March</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 27 March to Thursday, 30 March</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Budget sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Tuesday, 9 May to Thursday, 11 May</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Winter sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Tuesday, 13 June to Friday, 16 June</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 19 June to Thursday, 22 June</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Spring sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 31 July to Thursday, 3 August</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 7 August to Thursday, 10 August</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 4 September to Thursday, 7 September</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 11 September to Thursday, 14 September</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 16 October to Thursday, 19 October</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 6 November to Friday, 10 November</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 13 November to Friday, 17 November</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 27 November to Thursday, 30 November</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 4 December to Thursday, 7 December</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That estimates hearings by legislation committees for 2023 be scheduled as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">202 2 -2 3 Budget estimates:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 13 February and Tuesday, 14 February (supplementary hearings—Group A)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Wednesday, 15 February and Thursday, 16 February (supplementary hearings—Group B)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2023-24 Budget estimates:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 22 May to Thursday, 25 May, and, if required, Friday, 26 May (Group A)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Tuesday, 30 May to Friday, 2 June, and, if required, Friday, 23 June (Group B)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Monday, 23 October and Tuesday, 24 October (supplementary hearings— Group A)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Wednesday, 25 October and Thursday, 26 October (supplementary hearings—<inline font-style="italic">Group B</inline>).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That cross portfolio estimates hearings on Indigenous matters and on Murray- Darling Basin Plan matters be scheduled for Friday, 17 February, Friday, 26 May and Friday, 27 October, but not restricted to these days.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) That the committees consider the proposed expenditure in accordance with the allocation of departments and agencies to committees agreed to by the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) That committees meet in the following groups:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Group A:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finance and Public Administration</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Group B:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Education and Employment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) That the committees report to the Senate on Tuesday, 27 June 2022 in respect of the 2023-24 Budget estimates.</para></quote>
<para>I want to make a few remarks with leave of the Senate to explain the changes that we've made. I thank colleagues for discussing the Senate program and the estimates hearings. We have been working with senators to tweak the program that was circulated constructively, as Senator Chisholm said. The original program did not have estimates in February, as there had not been a MYEFO since the budget. The budget served as the MYEFO. The estimates hearings are being conducted, and in fact they're still under way. The next scheduled estimates would be after the budget. However, we have responded to the feedback from the Senate that they would like estimates in February. The government will agree to that. So one of the amendments is to have the week of 13 February to Friday 17 February removed as a sitting week and inserted as estimates. I would like to thank Senator Hanson-Young for discussions about how to accommodate the wishes of the Senate for an extra estimates week.</para>
<para>There's a further amendment which would move the June sittings up by a week and also remove the 'if required' out of that final sitting week in December. I thank colleagues for constructively engaging where they have. We've been able to respond as much as we can to get a sitting program for next year that meets everybody's needs, ensures we can get the business done and that we're responding to the wishes of the Senate for an extra estimates week.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—Imagine the Labor-Greens outrage if a coalition government had sought to axe one week of the traditional four weeks of Senate estimates. Imagine the even greater outrage if this was done, along with other unprecedented changes to the sitting schedule, without any consultation having occurred across the chamber. The outrage would have been off the Richter scale from Labor and the Greens. While we have seen in question time yesterday and today Senator Wong show a level of outrage at being questioned over the sitting schedule, I welcome this tweak, as the Manager of Government Business has described it, to the government's program. That's more than a tweak. Let me welcome this backflip and capitulation by the government to reinstate the four weeks of Senate estimates. They should never have sought to axe it. The attempt to axe a week of Senate estimates was clearly—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order, President: why is the clock not running? Could we set a time for this, please?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If you were listening, Senator Whish-Wilson, Senator Birmingham was given leave to make a few short remarks.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>To wrap up. This attempt to axe a week was clearly an attempt by the government to take an axe to the conventional transparency and accountability processes and procedures of the Senate. It was extraordinary to see the Greens also play patsy to this attempt to erode Senate accountability, but I do thank all six crossbench senators for standing firm with the coalition in support of Senate conventions. I acknowledge and welcome the government's backflip and, with that, indicate the opposition will not be proceeding with the amendments circulated in my name.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a few short remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens are happy with the amendments as circulated. We are pleased to see estimates back in in February. We are pleased to see more sitting days than there have been in this place for a very, very long time. All the last government did was cut, cut, cut. So what we've done is put, put, put them back in. That is what this sitting calendar will look like for next year. I look forward to working with everyone on all sides to make this parliament as effective as possible.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a very short statement.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the government for the extra week of estimates, but I would like to draw to the attention of the government the fact that there are a number of senators in this place—12, in fact—from the great state of Western Australia, and, in moving towards a more family-friendly parliament, Fridays do cut into their weekends. I think that's something to consider. No-one's complaining about working more, but I would like that to be considered.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make two additional quick points that have come up.</para>
<para>Oppositio n senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, one you'll want.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, colleagues; I'm sorry to do this again. The first one was a referral to the Procedure Committee for the structure of the Fridays, which Senator Ruston and others had requested. I've signed that letter, so that's done, just to let you know. So we'll have discussions about the routine of business for the day. On the second point, which was raised by Senator Pocock about Fridays, and acknowledging the issues that have been raised, <inline font-style="italic">Set the </inline><inline font-style="italic">standard</inline> wasn't just around being family friendly; it was also around hours of work. By having an extra working day, we are hopeful that we can reduce the requirement for senators to work 16- to 20-hour days and sit extended hours, which has directly contributed to a poor workplace culture for staff, which we are trying to address.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Davey! I remind senators that this question was well ventilated at question time, to the point that the whole chamber was out of order. I'm asking for quiet now.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia's Disaster Resilience Select Committee</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Appointment</title>
            <page.no>64</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave for general business order of the day No. 3, relating to the establishment of a select committee on Australia's disaster resilience, to be considered immediately. The whips have agreed that this item can be brought on for consideration at this time, with the question being put without any further debate. The motion has been recirculated.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There being no objection, leave is granted.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That a select committee, to be known as the Select Committee on Australia's Disaster Resilience, be established to inquire and report into the following matters:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) current preparedness, response and recovery workforce models, including:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the role of the Australian Defence Force in responding to domestic natural disasters,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the impact of more frequent and more intense natural disasters, due to climate change, on the ongoing capacity and capability of the Australian Defence Force,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the direct costs and opportunity costs of Australian Defence Force high availability disaster recovery operations, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) the role of Australian civil and volunteer groups, not-for-profit organisations and state-based services in preparing for, responding to and recovering from natural disasters, and the impact of more frequent and more intense natural disasters on their ongoing capacity and capability;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) consideration of alternative models, including:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) repurposing or adapting existing Australian civil and volunteer groups, not-for-profit organisations and state-based services, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) overseas models and best practice;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) consideration of the practical, legislative, and administrative arrangements that would be required to support improving Australia's resilience and response to natural disasters; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) any related matters.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The committee present its final report on or before the last sitting day in September 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The committee consist of six senators, as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) two senators nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) two senators nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) one senator nominated by minority party or independent senators; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) one senator nominated by the Jacqui Lambie Network.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) That:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) participating members may be appointed to the committee on the nomination of the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate or any minority party or independent senator; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) participating members may participate in hearings of evidence and deliberations of the committee, and have all the rights of members of the committee, but may not vote on any questions before the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) In the event that the Senate is not sitting and is not expected to meet for at least a week, the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate, minority groups or independent Senators may nominate any appointment or discharge of a member of a committee in writing to the President. The change in membership shall take effect from the time the President received the written nomination. At the next sitting, the President shall report the change to the Senate and the Senate shall resolve that membership of the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) If a member of a committee is unable to attend a meeting of the committee, that member may in writing to the chair of the committee appoint a participating member to act as a substitute member of the committee at that meeting, and if the member is incapacitated or unavailable, a letter to the chair of a committee appointing a participating member to act as a substitute member of the committee may be signed on behalf of the member by the leader or whip of the party or group on whose nomination the member was appointed to the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) That the committee may proceed to the dispatch of business notwithstanding that not all members have been duly nominated and appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) That the committee elect as chair the member nominated by the Jacqui Lambie Network, and as deputy chair the member nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) That the deputy chair shall act as chair when the chair is absent from a meeting of the committee or the position of chair is temporarily vacant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) That the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, may appoint another member of the committee to act as chair during the temporary absence of both the chair and deputy chair at a meeting of the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) That, in the event of an equally divided vote, the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, have a casting vote.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) That the committee have power to appoint subcommittees consisting of three or more of its members, and to refer to any such subcommittee any of the matters which the committee is empowered to examine.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) That the committee and any subcommittee have power to send for and examine persons and documents, to move from place to place, to sit in public or in private, notwithstanding any prorogation of the Parliament or dissolution of the House of Representatives, and have leave to report from time to time its proceedings, the evidence taken and such interim recommendations as it may deem fit.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) That the committee be provided with all necessary staff, facilities and resources and be empowered to appoint persons with specialist knowledge for the purposes of the committee with the approval of the President.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) That the committee be empowered to print from day to day such documents and evidence as may be ordered by it, and a daily Hansard be published of such proceedings as take place in public.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVE</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Y (—Deputy Leader of the Nationals and Deputy Leader of the Nationals in the Senate) (): I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the current flood circumstances across much of the eastern seaboard, coupled with lessons learned from the Black Summer bushfires and the March 2022 Lismore floods, it is timely to review existing call-out procedures and demand on the ADF and other volunteer organisations, with a view to ensuring Australia develops a best practice humanitarian assistance and disaster relief model that is efficient and consistent and does not undermine core ADF capabilities.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>66</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion to provide for consideration of formal motions tomorrow. In the constructive and consultative way that we are seeking to work with the chamber, it was inadvertently omitted from the changed routine of business for tomorrow. This motion will reinsert it.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the order of 29 November 2022, relating to the routine of business for Thursday, 1 December 2022, be amended to allow formal motions to take place after a report from the Selection of Bills Committee has been considered.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>66</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Affairs References Committee</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>66</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Community Affairs References Committee for inquiry and report by the first sitting day in March 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The use of puberty blockers in Australia, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the causes of the increase in rapid onset of gender dysphoria in children, including friendship groups, peer contagion, gender clinic staff and social media;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the experiences of parents of young people who have been prescribed puberty blockers, including their experience with the medical system;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the experiences of young people who have been prescribed puberty blockers, including their experience with the medical system;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the medical oversight of general practitioners prescribing puberty blockers;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the results of longitudinal studies of young people prescribed puberty blockers;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) whether the decision of the England and Wales High Court in <inline font-style="italic">Bell v Tavistock </inline>[2020] EWHC 3274, which held that it was highly unlikely that a child under the age of 16 could give consent to being prescribed puberty blockers, should apply in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) whether puberty blockers are reversible as claimed;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) whether affirming gender dysphoria as a primary condition is always helpful in the absence of investigating prior trauma, mental illness and other conditions; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) any other related matters.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens will not be supporting this referral. First up, I want trans and gender diverse people, especially young people, to know: we see you, we hear you and you are loved, and you deserve to feel safe and supported. Instead, Senator Hanson is using you as a political football to manufacture outrage. The Royal Australian College of Physicians gave advice in 2020 about whether there was a need for an inquiry into the care and treatment of trans and gender diverse children and young people. They found a national inquiry would only harm vulnerable young people. They supported the current guidelines for care and found that limiting health care for such a vulnerable group would be unethical, and, further, that gender-affirming health care for trans and gender diverse people should be a national priority. So, no, we do not need such a Senate inquiry.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that business of the Senate notice of motion No. 3 in the name of Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided [16:18]<br />(The President—Senator Sue Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>21</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>39</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education and Employment Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Additional Information</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of the Chair of the Education and Employment Legislation Committee, Senator Sheldon, I present additional information received by the committee on its inquiry into provisions of the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Delegated Legislation Monitor</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Chair of the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation, I present the <inline font-style="italic">Delegated legislation monitor</inline><inline font-style="italic"> 9 of 2022</inline>, together with ministerial correspondence relating to the report. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHITE</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the tabling of the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation's <inline font-style="italic">Delegated legislation</inline><inline font-style="italic"> monitor 9</inline><inline font-style="italic"> of 22</inline>. This monitor reports on the committee's consideration of 50 legislative instruments registered between 8 and 21 October 2022. It also details the committee's ongoing consideration of instruments registered in previous periods, and the instruments for which it has decided to conclude its examination.</para>
<para>I would firstly like to highlight the committee's scrutiny of the Financial Sector Reform (Hayne Royal Commission Response) (Hawking of Financial Products) Regulations 2021. This instrument amends the Corporations Regulations to create exemptions to the prohibition of hawking financial products set out in the Corporations Act. The committee engaged extensively with the former Treasurer regarding its concerns about parliamentary oversight in this instrument. The committee raised concerns that this instrument, made by the executive, creates exemptions to the primary law on an ongoing basis as it is also exempt from the sunsetting regime. It's the committee view that the modifications to exemptions from primary law should be set out in the primary law itself. When these measures are in delegated legislation, the committee expects they will be time limited to ensure frequent parliamentary oversight. This would also provide the executive with the ability to assess whether the measures remain appropriate and necessary.</para>
<para>The committee raised its concerns about parliamentary oversight with the former Treasurer on four occasions, without resolution. The committee continued to raise the matter with the new Assistant Treasurer. I'm pleased to report that yesterday the committee received an undertaking from the Assistant Treasurer that the instrument will be amended so that it ceases to operate within three years. This will facilitate greater parliamentary oversight of these measures. I thank the Assistant Treasurer and officials from the department for their constructive engagement with the committee. The committee has now concluded its consideration of this longstanding matter.</para>
<para>The second matter I would like to draw to the attention of the chamber is the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter‑Terrorism Financing Rules Amendment Instrument 2021. This instrument also contains measures which insert an ongoing exemption from primary legislation. The committee first raised its concerns with the former Minister for Home Affairs on two occasions, but unfortunately, the issue was not resolved. The committee raised the matter with the new Attorney-General, requesting that the measures either be moved into the primary legislation or, at a minimum, be time limited to five years to facilitate greater parliamentary scrutiny. I'm pleased to advise that, on 18 November, the Attorney-General undertook to amend the instrument so that the exemptions it inserts cease within five years of commencement. He also indicated that the exemptions may be revisited to determine if they are still necessary. On this basis, the committee was able to conclude its consideration of this instrument, and I thank the Attorney-General for his continued engagement with the committee.</para>
<para>The committee will continue to carefully scrutinise delegated legislation which contains ongoing measures that modify or create exemptions to primary legislation, noting that parliamentary oversight is a key consideration for the committee under the standing orders. With these comments, I commend the committee's <inline font-style="italic">Delegated </inline><inline font-style="italic">legislation monitor</inline><inline font-style="italic"> No. 9 of 2022</inline> to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Scrutiny Digest</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of Senator Dean Smith, I present <inline font-style="italic">Scrutiny digest</inline> No. 8 of 2022 of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the tabling statement incorporated in Hansard.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The </inline> <inline font-style="italic">statement </inline> <inline font-style="italic">read as follows—</inline></para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The document was unavailable at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>69</page.no>
        <type>MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Closing the Gap</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Prime Minister, I table the annual report on Closing the Gap and accompanying ministerial statement, and I seek leave to make a very brief statement relating to the documents.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the Senate. I first acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we gather and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging, and I pay tribute to the First Nations parliamentarians here in the chamber for their leadership and contribution. I will speak but briefly, as Senator Dodson and Senator McCarthy will speak for the government today because it is important that First Nations parliamentarians have their voice and perspective heard and that we all listen.</para>
<para>I want to make some brief points. Whilst the Closing the Gap report shows there has been some progress, on the majority of measures progress has been slow and even gone backwards. This government takes responsibility for where we go from here and for doing better. As the Prime Minister said today, so-called solutions conceived in Canberra and imposed on communities without consultation are more likely than not to end in expensive, ineffective, even counterproductive failure, but when First Nations people have a genuine say in policy design and an empowered role in service delivery, the results are remarkable.</para>
<para>The Albanese government is a government that listens to people with experience, with earned knowledge of kinship and country, of culture and community, and it is this which underlines our commitment to the full implementation of the Uluru Statement from the Heart, including a constitutionally enshrined Voice to Parliament to empower First Nations people to take control of their own lives, not have policies and laws dictated to them by politicians. The Voice is about enabling a better future, a future in which the lives of Indigenous people in the community are improved, to achieve better outcomes in health, in education, in housing and to close the gap. That is why we believe it is so important that the call from First Nations to be heard and to have a voice is answered by Australians.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the document.</para></quote>
<para>The Commonwealth government's first annual report under the National Agreement on Closing the Gap shows we have a lot of work to do. While has been some progress, the previous government's efforts over the last decade in government have been very ineffectual. Progress across most socioeconomic outcomes has stalled. While the national agreement and the partnership with the Coalition of Peaks provides a helpful architecture, the previous government's implementation leaves much to be desired.</para>
<para>Since coming into government just six months ago, our government has demonstrated our commitment to improving outcomes for First Nations peoples. In the October 2022 budget, we locked in significant investments across portfolios, seeking to address these disproportionate outcomes. We are investing in First Nations health workers, vital health infrastructure and community led justice reinvestment initiatives. In all of these commitments, we are working with First Nations peoples. This concept of working with First Nations peoples to make decisions about policies and programs so that they are more effective is not new. I and many other leaders have been talking about this for decades. It is grounded in the evidence: outcomes for our people are simply better when we have a say, have a choice and make decisions about our lives.</para>
<para>The national agreement provides one piece of architecture to improve outcomes, and my colleagues will work with this framework to continue important progress across the socioeconomic areas. But to achieve better outcomes, after a decade of stagnation, we must fundamentally change how governments work with First Nations peoples. We cannot allow these outcomes to continue in this way. That is only a shame on governments for failing to listen to First Nations communities.</para>
<para>To make meaningful and lasting change and progress requires systemic and structural transformation of how we are going to go about it on all sides of government. The Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice to the parliament and to the government will do exactly that. Our government is steadfast in the commitment to the full implementation of the Uluru Statement from the Heart because we know that it will lead to better outcomes for First Nations communities. That very statement calls for constitutional reform through a voice so that First Nations children can flourish. The Voice will give our people a real opportunity to advise the parliament and the government on how to do things for the better of our people. After 250 years, that's not such a bad idea.</para>
<para>The Voice to Parliament will be a significant shift for our nation, a structural change that will lead to better outcomes for our people and all Australians. To take the two concepts of closing the gap and the Voice to Parliament as mutually exclusive is flawed and misses the point.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>BIRMINGHAM (—) (): As we do at the commencement of every day of sittings, I want to acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which we meet and pay my respects to elders past, present and emerging as part of this recognition of the Closing the Gap statement.</para>
<para>The 2022 <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap</inline> report is the first since the launch under the previous coalition government of the 2020 national agreement and the Closing the Gap implementation plan released just over 12 months ago. The new implementation plan provides new targets established in genuine partnership with First Nations peoples, including, notably, the Coalition of Peaks, who I again thank for their detailed work through that process. It also includes state and territory governments, who play a critical role in delivering outcomes in Indigenous communities right across Australia.</para>
<para>The intent of the changes that were made to the Closing the Gap targets and the process of measuring them was to ensure that enhanced granularity of programs and targets to close the gap across areas of health, education, life expectancy and the range of different measures applied were even more measurable, even more effectively verifiable, so that we are able to ensure better progress of policies against those targets. When the former Prime Minister released the plan last year, it included $1 billion in new measures across a range of Commonwealth programs and strategies to help to ensure the actions across all areas of national government work towards closing the gap and achieving what we all seek: to improve the lives and circumstances of our First Australians and to see young Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children having the same health, education and employment opportunities as anyone else in Australia, so that they too can share the same hopes and the same aspirations for their own future and for that of their families.</para>
<para>I'm pleased that we see today the first <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report</inline> to measure against the new priorities and the new, more granular targets which reflect very genuinely the input from First Australians to establish those targets and priorities. Sadly, though, yet again we have to acknowledge that there is still much more to do. In too many areas we are still not making progress, or are even going backwards. School readiness, adult incarceration rates and suicide rates are all statistics that paint a bleak and continually concerning picture. They must provide a clarion call to all of us across the Australian parliament, and in state and territory parliaments, to redouble our collective efforts.</para>
<para>But we should not overlook improvement where it has been achieved. To actually highlight improvements is to try to enhance confidence in the processes and policies applied by governments to seek to close the gap. Healthier birth weights, more children enrolled in preschool, fewer young people in detention—these are important steps forward. We should celebrate those steps and seek to redouble progress on them, but make sure in doing so that we say to Australians, 'We can make a difference and we can make progress when we work together and apply those policies.'</para>
<para>In acknowledging those gains I pay tribute to those who work every day with individuals and across communities, from inner cities suburbs through to the remotest parts of our country, to deliver the outcomes that the policy actions of governments seek to achieve. I reaffirm to the Senate the commitment made by the Leader of the Opposition and shadow minister for Indigenous affairs in the House to work with the government on addressing the challenge to truly close the gap. Together we must continue to act to ensure specific and detailed policies are delivered to close the many gaps that continue to exist. That may mean, sometimes, difficult conversations. It may mean, sometimes, doing things that don't necessarily fit neatly into our own party's policy agendas. After many decades of effort by parties of both sides when in government, we know that closing the gap has no simple answer and no easy solutions. That is why we must persevere, persist and, where necessary, adapt policies to make sure that progress is made and improved.</para>
<para>If in the years to come we can stand here—but more importantly than standing here, stand alongside Indigenous Australians—and acknowledge a list of improvements against the Closing the Gap targets and, more importantly, a list of improvements in their lives and their children's and grandchildren's lives, then that will have been an effort well worthwhile.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the Greens leader in the Senate I pay respects to the First Nations owners of this land, over which sovereignty was never ceded. So it is, it was and it will always be Aboriginal land. I acknowledge and pay respect to all First Nations members of this parliament.</para>
<para>I rise to take note of the deeply disappointing results of the annual <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report</inline>. We are not closing the gap anywhere near fast enough, and on many indicators have, shamefully, gone backwards. We know and acknowledge that the injustices we see documented in the <inline font-style="italic">Closing the </inline><inline font-style="italic">g</inline><inline font-style="italic">ap report</inline> are symptoms of colonisation. First Nations people are wearing the consequences of racist decisions that successive governments in this country have made. It is on all Australians, but especially those of us in this chamber, to right the wrongs that started with invasion and the absence of treaty, and continue through child removal, incarceration and suicide. The rate of First Nations child removal is at an all-time high. Survivors of the Stolen Generations are now witnessing a new generation of First Nations children being stolen from their families and communities. The United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide defines forcibly transferring children of one group to another group as an act of genocide. Implementing the recommendations from the <inline font-style="italic">Bringing them </inline><inline font-style="italic">home </inline>report will keep First Nations kids with First Nations families. These are self-determined solutions that successive governments have ignored for 25 years.</para>
<para>Aggressive policing results in too many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people being locked up in prisons who do not have independent oversight to safeguard their human rights. Systemic racism in our policing and legal system is compounded by the low age of criminal responsibility, exposing kids as young as 10 to the trauma of prison and a criminal record. Sixty-five per cent of children in prison across Australia are First Nations kids. Our minimum age of criminal responsibility is out of line with international jurisdictions and out of line with our human rights obligations. We must urgently raise the age to at least 14 years.</para>
<para>Around 40 per cent of the recommendations of the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody are about social factors—things like education, health and housing. Access to basic human rights will stop First Nations people from going to prison in the first place. Successive governments have ignored this advice for 31 years. If the Albanese government are committed to hearing and acting on advice from First Nations people they will implement all the recommendations from the <inline font-style="italic">Bringing them home</inline> report and the Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody and listen to calls from the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child to raise the age of criminal responsibility. This is urgent, and it's overdue.</para>
<para>First Nations people are resorting to self-harm, because they cannot see a future for themselves in this system. The continuing high rate of suicide shows that structural racism and the policies made for First Nations people but not by them is killing First Nations people. Often they don't have access to their land, water or sacred sites or even their own children. This is up to us to change. We've inherited a centuries-old regime written entirely by white men that has not undertaken any fundamental change since colonisation. We know the confronting truth: the basis of the Australian nation was terra nullius and the idea that First Nations people didn't need human rights or decision-making power because they were subhuman.</para>
<para>We have an opportunity to do things differently in this country. A national grassroots treaty process will close the gap by restoring First Nations people's rights to make decisions for themselves. We know that self-determined solutions work, because Aboriginal people know what's best for Aboriginal communities. Everyone thrives when they are free to set their own course. On this, there must be a standalone national plan to end violence against First Nations women and children that is developed, delivered and evaluated by First Nations women and community controlled organisations. I'm pleased that work on this has begun. Adequate funding must be allocated to get it done.</para>
<para>Despite ongoing injustice, First Nations people are strong and capable. A national treaty process puts First Nations people in the driver's seat when it comes to making decisions about their own country, community and culture. We are one of the only Commonwealth countries that doesn't have a treaty with First Nations people. It was promised by Bob Hawke's Labor government in the eighties. First Nations elders and activists have marched for it for decades. In this term of government the Greens will work for progress on truth, treaty and voice to meaningfully close the gap.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise as Leader of the Nationals in the Senate to also take note of the Closing the Gap statement and to put our views on how that is proceeding—or how the report, currently as it has been tabled, isn't proceeding as quickly, as swiftly as we would like but, more importantly, as Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders need to occur in this country. Today is a day when, as we do each time this report is tabled, we take stock as a collective group of national leaders of how we can better work together to improve the life outcomes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. It's underpinned by the belief that when Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people have a genuine say in the design and delivery of policies, programs and services that effect them then better life outcomes are achieved. All Australian governments are committed to working with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people and their communities, organisations and businesses to help achieve better outcomes.</para>
<para>But today we have to acknowledge that four out of 18 means that 12 out of 18 aren't going in the right direction. So we all need to put our shoulder harder into that wheel to work better with state and territory governments, with local governments and with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peak organisations so that the policies that are thought of and designed hit the ground in those communities and really change the dial. In terms of changes that we made whilst we were in government, we did take the practical step of creating the joint ministerial council, led by the national Coalition of Peaks, to inform the work with government and develop the evolving target areas, which was so critical to changing the way we looked at achieving the Closing the Gap targets. In order to maintain the momentum of the national agreement's transformative agenda, we've got to foster and enhance those partnership principles.</para>
<para>As the party of rural and regional Australia, if you look at the latest statistics from the ABS, the 20 electorates that have the most Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in them as a proportion of population are all in rural and regional Australia, all 20 of them. Lingiari has 40 per cent. Parkes, represented by Mark Coulton in the other place, has 16 per cent. Mark Coulton, a National Party MP, represents more Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders than he does farmers. So it's about making sure that we constructively work with whoever is in government and that we are in partnerships at the state government level. That is critical for changing the dial for the people that we represent as the party of rural and regional Australia.</para>
<para>We've got to look at the education piece. We've got to get kids into school. We've got to get great teachers into schools in remote areas to really back those young people's future opportunities.</para>
<para>We created Supply Nation, the procurement policy, while we were in government, with $5.3 billion that went into tens of thousands of contracts. Small businesses partnered with local Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islanders in great jobs right across the country. That was a way to take a creative gambit, if you like, to change the dial, and it did. I would like to pay tribute to the former minister in this space Nigel Scullion and thank him for that work.</para>
<para>I look forward to working however we can with the current government constructively to close the gap over their time on the Treasury benches, and we have all got to do better. There is no other way to say it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to respond to the <inline font-style="italic">Closing the Gap</inline> report. This is the first report since the establishment of the new National Agreement on Closing the Gap. Once again, it makes for disappointing and frustrating reading.</para>
<para>I acknowledge that some targets are on track: more babies born at a healthy weight, and more kids enrolled in preschool. This is very welcome news. However, many targets are not on track, and in some areas the gap has widened. These include incarceration rates, children in and out of home care, getting children school-ready and tragically, suicide rates.</para>
<para>One Nation supports the new approach in the National Agreement on Closing the Gap in principle, primarily because there was some focus on empowering Indigenous Australians to take equal responsibility for its outcomes. We have hope that this approach will chip away at the insidious culture of victimhood unjustly imposed on Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. We concede that it is early days, but you will forgive my cynicism at the ultimate impact of this new approach, considering the uncounted billions of dollars thrown at these issues for many years, with little positive effect.</para>
<para>Regardless, closing the gaps is an urgent priority for this entire nation. It is appalling that any defined demographic of Australians is so obviously disadvantaged. One Nation looks forward to a future when this disadvantage has been overcome, when we are no longer divided or separated by race in any respect, and when every individual Australian's opportunities and prospects are no longer defined by race. We will never close the gaps as long as we continue to indulge in the identity politics of racial division and separatism.</para>
<para>This is why it is critical that all Australian people unite to stand against it, and they can do so by voting no in the coming referendum on the proposed Voice to Parliament. Given the urgency to close the gaps, it is only fair to question why the Albanese government is prioritising such an expensive and divisive proposal, especially considering there is absolutely no compelling evidence the Voice will help to close the gap. It is only fair to question if the Albanese government is ignoring a growing chorus of Australian voices, including prominent Indigenous voices, opposing the voice to parliament. It is only fair to question why the Prime Minister did not, apparently, seek legal advice before proposing his amendment to the Constitution. This draft amendment is of tremendous concern for the future governance of Australia, because it threatens to unleash a wave of repeated constitutional crises. Constitutional legal minds much finer than those of Anthony Albanese or Mark Dreyfus have, for months, been warning the Prime Minister's draft amendment is absolutely ripe for this potential.</para>
<para>As we have seen unfolding this week, this debate is not only causing further division between Indigenous and non-indigenous Australians it is dividing Indigenous Australia itself. Noel Pearson has been at the forefront of the yes cause, pedalling the transparent lie that the voice is necessary because Indigenous Australians are not recognised in their country. This week he has bullied and attacked Senator Price for her stance on the voice, accusing her of being used to punch down on other Aboriginals. I was disgusted, but not especially surprised, by this deeply personal and racist attack on a woman who has articulated practical and sensible concerns about the voice. Mr Pearson would do well to consider that Senator Price's election to the Senate shows our Constitution and system of government are no barriers to Indigenous representation. And the Prime Minister will do well to pay close attention to the fracturing of the Australian electorate and the deep divisions being created by this proposal to give greater political franchise to a minority of Australians based solely on race. One Nation proudly stands against enshrining racial exceptionalism in the founding document of Australia. We will be campaigning strongly for the no vote so that Australia can move forward together, united as one people and one nation under one flag.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the report tabled today, in 2022. It's clearly deeply frustrating, as we've heard from Minister Burney and my colleague Senator Dodson. But I want to use this time to reach out those people across this country who do so much each and every single day in all of these areas that we have the targets for Closing the Gap.</para>
<para>Let's talk about our children. To the woman who intervened in the life of her own son and his five children and knew that if she didn't step in to take those children herself then they too would be removed into the care of the system that so many First Nations people dread, the system of welfare and the system that removes children, as we've seen with stolen generations—and redress now—the system that still drives a lot of fear in the hearts of many mothers. To the woman who stepped into that intervention and worked with her other son to take those five children and to try and care for them. She still struggles, and her story is emulated across the country, but she did it because she did not want her grandchildren to be part of these statistics.</para>
<para>To the grandmother who knew that her grandbabies were with foster carers and those foster carers, in the community, had raised those babies for about three or four years. The foster carers now, after nearly five years, want to return to where they come from, after living in the community and teaching in the community and caring for so many children there. They've asked to be able to take those children so that they can care for them interstate. So the grandmothers had a meeting and a gathering to talk about what this means for these children and the kinship care. How will they still understand culture? How will they still understand their language and know that they are so deeply loved but just cannot be cared for? That was an important step in the self-determination of those grandmothers, who had known that this was going to be the best way for their grandbabies, so that those children will come back and forwards knowing where they come from in an environment of love.</para>
<para>To those health workers, health practitioners right across Australia, to many of you whom I've met in my short time in the ministry as assistant minister in Indigenous health, we have a terrific opportunity to move even harder on improving these statistics. I am ever so conscious that this is the first time I'm speaking to this report from government. I am ever so conscious that I stand with my colleagues in government to try to improve the lives of First Nations people through the Closing the Gap report. I do thank the parliament of Australia for the many, many years that we have had Closing the Gap—not because I'm proud of any of the reports or the statistics, but because you continuously shine a light on what we know out there in our communities still desperately needs this parliament to never forget. That is to improve the lives of the most vulnerable. We fumble about it in our very imperfect ways, but I do believe there is a genuine desire to make sure these statistics get lower and lower each year.</para>
<para>As the minister for Indigenous health, I say to all those in the health sector out there, I am heartened by the fact that we can move now on the renal dialysis units; on the 500 health practitioners that we want to employ in these positions across the country; on the fact that we're going to focus on rheumatic heart disease and really try to eliminate this scourge. I do hope the next time I stand on my feet here I can have something really strong to say. Thank you.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>73</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Responses to Senate Resolutions</title>
          <page.no>73</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning unanswered questions on notice, superannuation payment disclosure requirements, crypto asset secondary service providers, the special envoy for disaster resilience, and the effigy of the sovereign on Australian banknotes.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>73</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia's Disaster Resilience Select Committee, Foreign Interference Social Media, Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee</title>
          <page.no>73</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>73</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received letters nominating senators to be members of committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The motion was unavailable at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>74</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aboriginal Land Grant (Jervis Bay Territory) Amendment (Strengthening Land and Governance Provisions) Bill 2022, Animal Health Australia and Plant Health Australia Funding Legislation Amendment Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>74</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6930" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Aboriginal Land Grant (Jervis Bay Territory) Amendment (Strengthening Land and Governance Provisions) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6913" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Animal Health Australia and Plant Health Australia Funding Legislation Amendment Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>74</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>74</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sen</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>ator CHISHOLM (—Assistant Minister for Education, Assistant Minister for Regional Development and Deputy Manager of Government Business in the Senate) (): I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">ABORIGINAL LAND GRANT (JERVIS BAY TERRITORY) AMENDMENT (STRENGTHENING LAND AND GOVERNANCE PROVISIONS) BILL 2022</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government has worked with the Wreck Bay Aboriginal Community Council and the broader Wreck Bay community over a number of years to co-design the Aboriginal Land Grant (Jervis Bay Territory) Amendment (Strengthening Land and Governance Provisions) Bill 2022, with the most recent consultations on the detail of the Bill in August this year. The Bill will:</para></quote>
<list>strengthen the Council's governance structures;</list>
<list>enhance the control the Council has over its own affairs; and</list>
<list>help to enable home ownership style leases on Aboriginal Land in the Jervis Bay Territory.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Wreck Bay community is located in the Jervis Bay Territory, on the southern New South Wales coast, 126 kilometres east of Canberra. The Jervis Bay Territory was formally established in 1915, on the land of the Bherwerre Peninsula, through the enactment of the <inline font-style="italic">Jervis Bay Territory Acceptance Act 1915</inline>. Of course, First Nations people had been living in the area since long before that time, and never agreed to the surrender of these lands. Middens on the Bherwerre Peninsula provide evidence of thousands of generations of First Nations occupation of the area.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During the 1960s and 1970s, members of the community advocated for the recognition of their connection to their land in Australian law. This advocacy culminated in the enactment of the <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal Land Grant (Jervis Bay Territory) Act 1986</inline>. The Act established the Wreck Bay Aboriginal Community Council to hold title to Aboriginal Land in the Jervis Bay Territory, to manage that land for the benefit of the community, and to advocate for and serve the community more generally. There have been three declarations of Aboriginal Land since 1987. Today, more than 90 per cent of the land in the Jervis Bay Territory is Aboriginal Land owned and managed by the Council. Much of that land is Booderee National Park, which is leased back to the Director of National Parks and is jointly managed by the Council and the Director of National Parks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill ensures that the Council is well positioned to hold and manage this land for the benefit of the Council's members for generations to come.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill enhances local control over decision making by increasing the amount the Council can agree to spend under a contract without obtaining Ministerial approval. This amount will increase from $100,000 to $1 million, empowering the Council to pursue commercial ventures without having to navigate unnecessary red tape.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill assists the Council to issue home ownership style leases to individuals in the community. If community members wish to do so, they will be able to take out a home ownership style lease. This will simplify arrangements for long-term leasing and provide opportunity for community members to enjoy the intergenerational benefits of home ownership.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill strengthens the Council's governance structures, aligning them more closely with those of comparable corporate Commonwealth entities. The powers of the Council will be vested in the Board; until now, the Council's members have had to delegate powers to the Board, creating uncertainty within the Council. The Board and the Chief Executive Officer will be explicitly empowered to delegate functions and powers so the Council can function effectively. The Bill also ensures only fit and proper persons may serve on the Board, and changes quorum requirements from set numbers to percentages of overall members, ensuring responsiveness to changes in overall membership numbers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the Bill updates the title of the Act to the "Aboriginal Land and Waters (Jervis Bay Territory) Act 1986". This name reflects the Council's ownership of an area of the waters of Jervis Bay, as well as freshwater sources across the Jervis Bay Territory. It recognises the community's strong connection to waters as well as land, and the importance of the Act in supporting that enduring connection into the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government's Closing the Gap commitment to shared decision-making has guided the development of these reforms. Targeted co-design sessions were held in 2020 and 2021, including with the Council's Board, men's and women's groups, subcommittees, elders, youth, and the broader membership. Some reforms were proposed by the community, others were suggested by Government, and every reform in this Bill has been explicitly endorsed by the Board.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I acknowledge the work that occurred under the former Minister for Indigenous Australians, the Honourable Ken Wyatt, in progressing this important work with the Wreck Bay community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government sincerely thanks the Council for its work in the co-design of this Bill. In particular, we acknowledge the leadership of Annette Brown and Julie Moore, who have chaired the Council during the co-design process.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Council's work honours the longstanding tradition of community service and representation in Wreck Bay. Those who advocated for land rights in the late twentieth century paved the way for the present generation to maintain their deep connection to their land and waters. This Bill ensures that the Wreck Bay community will continue to live their culture through this enduring connection for generations to come.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend this Bill to the chamber.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ANIMAL HEALTH AUSTRALIA AND PLANT HEALTH AUSTRALIA FUNDING LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL 2022</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Maintaining Australia's strong biosecurity status ensures our food security and protects agricultural trade.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This can only be achieved through a strong government-industry partnership.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">One of the many ways this partnership takes effect is through the work of Animal Health Australia and Plant Health Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Through these bodies, the Australian Government partners with state and territory governments and a number of livestock and plant industry bodies to further our shared biosecurity interests and ensure Australia's world class produce remains in high demand.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Incursions of exotic animal diseases or plant pests into Australia are relatively rare, but they do have serious potential impacts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Detections of foot and mouth disease and lumpy skin disease in one of our nearest neighbouring nations has had the government and livestock industries on high alert.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The government has taken immediate action to prevent these diseases from entering Australia, implementing the strongest biosecurity response in our nation's history.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This includes our three-pronged approach of supporting Indonesia's response to both diseases with animal vaccinations and technical support, stronger measures at the border and increased preparedness here at home.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Because, the risk of incursion cannot be entirely mitigated.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is why governments and industry bodies partner as signatories to the Emergency Animal Disease Response Agreement and Emergency Plant Pest Response Deed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If the worst should happen and an exotic animal disease or plant pest should make its way into Australia, emergency eradication responses are mounted and cost-shared under these deeds to give the best possible chance of eradication.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Government and industry investment can avoid significant pest or disease management cost to our producers in the long run.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Over the past few years, under these emergency response arrangements, we have been able to eradicate citrus canker and three strains of avian influenza.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Varroa jacobsoni—a bee parasite—was also eradicated and we are now working to achieve the same outcome for its more problematic cousin, varroa destructor.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Four kinds of biosecurity levies provide an equitable way for all producers to contribute to the cost of the biosecurity activities and eradication responses that benefit their industry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Animal Health Australia and Plant Health Australia levies fund activities such as biosecurity education, planning and surveillance, as well as AHA and PHA membership.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Emergency Animal Disease Response and Emergency Plant Pest Response levies primarily fund industry contributions to eradication responses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">They can also be spent on other biosecurity activities once these financial obligations are met.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An issue for Plant Health Australia member industries is that for the EPPR levy this alternative use is limited to purposes related to <inline font-style="italic">emergency plant pests</inline> under the plant response deed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Increasing the flexibility in how these levies can be spent to include all plant health and biosecurity activities will increase their effectiveness.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will achieve this by broadening the range of permissible uses for these levies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Plant industries have welcomed this change, as it will allow them to focus available funds on their industry's most pressing biosecurity needs, whether for exotic or established plant pests.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, meeting response costs remains crucial—it is the main purpose for emergency response levies—and the Bill will not change that.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will also modernise and streamline the AHA and PHA funding legislation, including by removing redundant or duplicative provisions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, a complex provision for funding biosecurity-related research and development activities through PHA levies will be removed in favour of using PHA's more straightforward industry planning processes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also simplify the process by which the relevant PHA industry member for a specific biosecurity levy is determined.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will reduce regulatory and administrative burden.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Honey bees provide valuable pollination services to a myriad of plant industries and the honey industry's biosecurity activities are now characterised as plant biosecurity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Therefore, references to honey in the AHA Act can now be removed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also allow the AHA Act to facilitate the levy arrangements that are likely to be needed if other response deeds are agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Each of these changes will make the AHA and PHA funding legislation more effective, efficient and fit for purpose.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will strengthen the ability of industries to invest meaningfully in biosecurity and help maintain Australia's enviable position as a world-class agricultural producer and exporter.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Higher Education Support Amendment (2021 Measures No. 1) Bill 2021</title>
          <page.no>76</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6827" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Higher Education Support Amendment (2021 Measures No. 1) Bill 2021</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>76</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>76</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a revised explanatory memorandum relating to the bill, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">Higher Education Support Act</inline> 2003 to support students through fairer grandfathering provisions and support our rural, remote and very remote communities by encouraging our medical graduates to provide services in those areas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When the former Government's Job-ready Graduates scheme was introduced in late 2020 it grandfathered students who were already studying at 1 January 2021 so they could finish their course at the same student contribution rates as when they started.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In a lapsed bill the former Government introduced a correction to those grandfathering provisions to include honours course students who had started but not finished their original course at 1 January 2021. That correction is included in this bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the first weeks of this Government, the Sydney Morning Herald published a story that revealed that a number of other students were also left out of grandfathering because their courses were changed or cancelled by their Universities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's not fair that students face higher student contribution rates because of decisions taken by their University and which are out of their control.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill fixes that.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will be reviewing the Job-ready Graduates program as part of the Universities Accord which will commence soon, but it's important that these measures are introduced now so that these students are treated fairly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill also introduces measures from a lapsed bill to encourage doctors and nurse practitioners to live and work in rural, remote and very remote areas of Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It puts in place a scheme for eligible doctors and nurse practitioners to have their HELP debts reduced or wiped if they live and work in those areas for a period based on the length of their degree.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Doctors and nurse practitioners who live and work in a remote or very remote community for the equivalent of half the length of their degree will be able to have 100 per cent of their HELP debt wiped.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Doctors and nurse practitioners who live and work in a large, medium or small rural town will have 100% of their HELP debt wiped if they live and work there for the equivalent of the length of their degree.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This means an eligible doctor with a HELP debt from a six year medical degree and who lives and provides services in a remote community like Broome or Bourke for three years will be able to have their HELP debt for that course wiped.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An eligible nurse practitioner who lives and works in a rural town like Parkes for two years will be able to have the HELP debt for their nurse practitioner course wiped.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Doctors and nurse practitioners who meet half of the time requirements will be able to access half of the HELP debt removal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And doctors and nurse practitioners working in these areas will be able to apply for a waiver of indexation on their HELP debt whilst they live and work there.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The classification of rural and remote locations is based on the Modified Monash Model and the bill makes provision for Guidelines to define eligibility and service requirements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is expected to help around 850 medical practitioners a year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This measure will be effective from 1 January this year, and the Education and Health portfolios will work together to implement this scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The measures in this Bill further support the Government's commitment to fairness in our education sector and to support services in our rural and remote communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend to them to the chamber.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
<para>Ordered that further consideration of the second reading of this bill be adjourned to the first sitting day of the next period of sittings, in accordance with standing order 111.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Reform (Closing the Hole in the Ozone Layer) Bill 2022, Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas (Import Levy) Amendment Bill 2022, Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas (Manufacture Levy) Amendment Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>77</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6918" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas Management Reform (Closing the Hole in the Ozone Layer) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6921" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas (Import Levy) Amendment Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6922" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Ozone Protection and Synthetic Greenhouse Gas (Manufacture Levy) Amendment Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>77</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>77</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches were unavailable at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Biosecurity Amendment (Strengthening Biosecurity) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>77</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1350" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Biosecurity Amendment (Strengthening Biosecurity) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>77</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>78</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6917" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>78</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>78</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6941" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>78</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Acting Deputy President Sterle, I note how keen you were to take the chair for my speech in continuation tonight! You wore one of your favourite ties for the occasion!</para>
<para>I would like to talk about some of the specific provisions in this bill and my concern about the drafting of the bill. Bear in mind that this legislation is going to impact small and medium-sized businesses across this country, many of whom do not have a dedicated human resources function or an in-house legal function to give them advice. We've heard during the debate over the last few weeks that the government's estimate of consultant or adviser fees of $175 an hour, as provided in the regulation impact statement, is simply underdone, undercooked—not accurate.</para>
<para>The reality is that small and medium-sized businesses who want to get legal advice or industrial relations advocacy advice in relation to these measures which they are going to have to comply with are looking at a cost—just for a junior adviser or consultant—in the region of $350 an hour, at least twice as much as the government has estimated in its regulatory impact statement. That is deeply concerning. If you are going to change the law and put a cost imposition on small and medium-sized businesses, work out what the cost is appropriately. As has been said by my friend Senator Brockman in the course of this debate—I did exactly the same as Senator Brockman. I rang a small business that provides industrial advocacy services in my home state, in Brisbane, and I was told that, for a junior, it was $350 an hour and, for someone more senior, between $400 and $500 an hour. Yet we have a regulatory impact statement which refers to an estimate of $175 an hour. That is very disappointing.</para>
<para>I want to turn to some of the drafting of the bill. A key clause is in relation to what constitutes a common interest, because it's under this definition that small and medium-sized enterprises may be dragged into an industrial relations dispute. This is what the definition says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of subparagraph (1)(b)(ii), examples of common interests—</para></quote>
<para>that's the key definition, common interests—</para>
<quote><para class="block">that employers may have include the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a geographical location;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the nature of the enterprises to which the agreement will relate, and the terms and conditions of employment in those enterprises;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) being substantially funded, directly or indirectly, by the Commonwealth, a State or a Territory.</para></quote>
<para>It's up to the Fair Work Commission to decide, on the basis of those criteria in the bill, whether or not there is a common interest. We then turn to the explanatory memorandum. For those listening to the debate, the explanatory memorandum is meant to explain what the provisions in the bill actually mean. This is what it tells us:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Subsection 243(2) would provide examples of common interests that employers may have. This includes the geographical location of the employers, the nature of the enterprises to which the agreement will relate, and the terms and conditions of employment …</para></quote>
<para>So the explanatory memorandum simply restates what's actually in the bill. It doesn't explain anything. It just restates what's in the bill.</para>
<para>So what is one to make of the phrase 'a geographical location'? Every business in this country is at a geographical location. Putting aside the fact that a location needs to be geographical—I'm not sure what else it can be—what does that mean? Are we talking about businesses which are adjacent to each other or in close proximity within a shopping centre, for example? Are we talking about a suburb? Are we talking about a region? For example, is Mount Isa considered a geographical location for the purposes of this test, or would it be north-west Queensland, regional Queensland or the state of Queensland? What is the actual geographical location we're talking about that triggers this test? There is absolutely no guidance whatsoever to the Fair Work Commission as to what this means in practice.</para>
<para>Then we turn to the second link, the nature of the enterprises. Again, as is the case with a geographical location, the explanatory memorandum just regurgitates what's in the bill. It doesn't actually give a definition as to what 'nature of the enterprises' means—absolutely no guidance whatsoever. So, paragraph (a), a geographical location: well, I can tell you, every single business in this country is located at a geographical location. So where does that lead us?</para>
<para>Then the second part, the 'nature of the enterprises'—again, no explanation as to what that means. Then you go to the regulatory impact statement—the famous regulatory impact statement that undercooks the cost of consultants that small and medium-size businesses are going to have to engage by at least 50 per cent—to see what this means. I go to the case study, which is contained on page 53 of the regulatory impact statement. This is how they think this should work in practice:</para>
<quote><para class="block">10 medium-sized fish and chip shops with seafood processing plants in Queensland have decided or been compelled to bargain together in the single interest stream.</para></quote>
<para>I'm going to repeat that: '10 medium-sized fish and chip shops with seafood processing plants'—I'm assuming that they're not saying that each of the 10 medium-sized fish and chip shops has its own seafood processing plant. I'm assuming they're not intending to imply that. I'm assuming they're intending to imply that each of these 10 fish and chip shops sources its seafood from an external supplier. So, our 10 medium-sized fish and chip shops with seafood processing plants in Queensland 'have decided or been compelled'—at least the regulatory impact statement is honest in that regard—'to bargain together in the single interest stream'.</para>
<para>For the life of me, Mr Acting Deputy President Sterle—and you are extremely well experienced in industrial relations matters—I cannot see any similarity whatsoever with respect to industrial relations issues between a medium-sized fish and chip shop that is a retail shop, that is outward facing—it presumably would be more busy during hours when people are going to get their fish and chips—and a seafood processing plant, which is processing seafood that has been caught. Where is the similarity? How in goodness's name would our 10 proprietors of the medium-sized fish and chip shop sit down with the general managers or owners of the seafood processing plant and with the unions and come up with any coherent enterprise agreement? How?</para>
<para>This is madness. And this is the case study in the regulatory impact statement—10 medium-sized fish and chip shops getting together with the seafood processing factory. It's hard to fathom. Then we go through the case study and they say it's fantastic:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In their current arrangements they must enforce 4 awards to run their business, the Seafood Processing Award, the Retail Award, the Fast Food Award and the Restaurant Award. This has led to increased compliance costs for business.</para></quote>
<para>But once they go through the single-interest stream of bargaining they're going to have one enterprise agreement. Seriously? How do you sit down and negotiate a meaningful enterprise agreement to cover a retail-facing fish and chip shop and a seafood processing plant? And this is the example we're given in the regulatory impact statement. It's absolutely embarrassing.</para>
<para>So, we look at that example, and then we go back to the bill and look at the general comment around the nature of the enterprise. One is left with the unavoidable conclusion that this clause is just so vague and so general that it could be found to apply to anyone and anything, as long as they're in some sort of geographical proximity. I don't want to criticise the people who drafted the regulatory impact statement. I'm sure they've done their best under very difficult circumstances. This is the sort of example they're giving us: a seafood processing plant—a factory, to put it another way—entering into an enterprise agreement which would cover retail workers in a fish and chip shop. Seriously? I've never heard such a thing. I'd love to know if there is any example of that being done anywhere.</para>
<para>There's a good reason why there are different awards that apply to restaurants, retail, fast food and seafood processing plants. The reason why you have different awards is the context, the facts and circumstances with respect to the place of work, occupational health and safety standards, presumably rosters and all sorts of issues are so materially different between those businesses. It is impossible to fathom how those sorts of medium and small businesses would come together and negotiate a meaningful enterprise agreement, but this is the case study that the government holds up. It is clear to me that insufficient work and time have been put into the preparation of this legislation, and I fear the consequences for our economy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To be honest, I've been consistent in wanting the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022 to be debated next year. It's not a surprise. I've said I have issues with it—mostly around the multi-employer bargaining, because we just don't know how this will impact small and medium businesses. We haven't had time to complete our due diligence and consult, listen and understand the real-world impacts. It's all well here in Canberra to debate and make changes, but even with the changes, we don't know how it will actually work.</para>
<para>How are we supposed to get across all of this? We've been getting amendment after amendment after amendment—we got some just a few hours ago. I'm not convinced anyone can really predict how the changes in this bill will impact productivity and result in pay rises. I tell you one thing, though: no-one is getting a pay rise before Christmas. Let's make sure that's quite clear. At the beginning of the week, this bill was still subject to further Senate inquiry because we're all trying to get across the details. This bill is 250 pages long. The bill was only introduced on 27 October 2022, and just a month later it's being rammed through the Senate.</para>
<para>Yes, I get the Labor Party is dead keen to get wages moving after wage stagnation for close to a decade. Aussies know and understand and voted on reducing the wage gap, stopping wage theft and getting better wages. They didn't vote at the election to support single-interest multi-employer bargaining. It's a surprise. Just how it will bite in the real world is terribly unclear. Businesses are concerned it may lead to more strikes, but, of course, we don't know, and Labor can't guarantee that either. What is a single interest? Location, the rules of the industry or the type of work? The fact we still need to ask this question shows how rushed this process has been.</para>
<para>The amendments agreed between Senator Pocock and Labor still don't solve the issue; they just further exemptions to who is caught. However, here we are at the eleventh hour. The deal was done, apparently, on Saturday night, and we still don't have the amendments. Where are the amendments? If you are a small business of 15 to 20 employees, you're not caught. For businesses with fewer than 50 employees, the union has to justify why that business should be included in multi-employer bargaining—I'm not feeling comfortable—provided you are reasonably comparable. I mean, seriously. What does that mean? What does 'comparable' mean? No wonder your amendments are taking so long.</para>
<para>These last-minute changes haven't allowed any of us the time needed to raise awareness with business and work out how this amended bill will impact them. It is unclear how it will address the wage crisis and even how quickly pay rises—if they happen—will reach the pockets of hardworking Aussies. The costs of living continue to increase. It seems everything gets more expensive every day. Since May 2022, there have been seven interest rate rises in a row. This means the average home loan of $500,000 has now gone up by $760 a month. You'll get a new interest rate just before Christmas. That's what you can expect. It's all well and good for Mr Lowe, the RBA Governor, to apologise to Aussie homeowners after he said interest rates were unlikely to rise before 2024. God help all our children out there, who did the right thing, thinking they were investing in their first house, with maintaining and holding it if interest rates keep going up. I see a massive crisis coming on their. A fat lot of good that's going to do to help all those struggling with meeting their mortgage repayments. It's not just homeowners who are feeling it. Renters also are having to tighten their belts, because if you raise interest rates it means higher mortgages, and common sense says it means higher rents.</para>
<para>To add to that, Mr Lowe then said that higher wages will mean higher inflation. That means higher gas, petrol and food prices. The high gas prices are a result of bad Liberal government policy and its absolute failure to give Australians fair access to a product they already own. There's no way that Australians should be paying the sky-high gas prices we are, and it's all because the Liberal government and Labor failed to protect the Australian market, letting greedy companies export most of our gas so they could fill their pockets with huge profits and then profit even more by making Australians pay inflated spot-market prices for their own gas. I tell you, this country is in a world of hurt, and it's only just the beginning.</para>
<para>Even if wages do rise, pay cheques won't increase until next year, and no-one can say by how much. Even after this bill passes, wages are unlikely to increase enough to cover all these hikes in the cost of living so that Aussies are really better off and are getting ahead. I support higher wages. Most people in Australia do. Why wouldn't they? But they have to be paid for by business, so they matter here as well. You can't help if your shop is shut and no-one is getting a wage at all. They're really worried about this bill as well, and so they should be. I want to get wages moving for nurses, aged-care workers and childcare workers. The government could have done that the day they got into power. That's what they should have been hitting. That's what they should have been doing. They could do it today, but they didn't and they won't.</para>
<para>The government are being sneaky and dishonest. They said they needed this bill to do that, but they didn't. They held back the wages of low-paid workers, and they did it on purpose. They're doing a whole lot of things with this bill that they haven't properly explained to us, and that's why I've circulated amendments to take those parts out. The government can bring these parts of the bill back next year, once we have had time to consider the impacts properly. I'm not going to wear the responsibility of making mistakes with this one. The government of the day can do that. God help you if, this time next year, people are in absolute crisis, they're not getting their pay rises and there are union strikes all over the country, because I say this to you: that will leave you about a year and a half out from an election, and I don't see that cleaning up very quickly.</para>
<para>I don't believe you've got this right. I believe there is a lot of union power in this. It's all about political donations, making sure they keep feeding the piggy bank of the union party—or, should I say, the Labor Party. That is where we're at. I look forward to standing here next year, holding this Senate back day after day and absolutely pummelling you people over there about the destruction that you have done to this country. That is where we are heading. By the way, we still have amendments we have not seen. There are still more to come. We are rushing through this. It's going to have a huge impact on this country. I can tell you now, the way we're all looking at it, most people out there that have some common sense know exactly where we're going. We're heading down the gurgler. You've got problems here. The first one is gas and energy prices. You've got home loans going through the roof, and our younger kids who thought they were doing the right thing are going to go under. That's where we're at. If you think an extra seven or eight bucks a week, if you get that far by next year, is going to assist, you are living in denial—you're living on another planet.</para>
<para>The way that you have rushed this through just blows me away. I thought you were going to be a different government to the last one. Seriously, we're six months in and, I tell you, we're nearly back to the good old days of the last nine years. Good luck to you. I look forward to standing up here this time next year and watching you on the government side all sit there as you try to explain yourselves, because that is what is going to happen.</para>
<para>Anyway, I look forward to the committee stage. I have quite a lot of questions because, once again, we had limited time to ask them before. I look forward to what the government of the day is going to say to the questions that never got answered because we didn't have enough time to get them answered. Four days and two hours for an inquiry—seriously! That's what we got on this bill. I cannot believe that you haven't learned from the past what happens when you rush through bills; we watched it for nine years. This is where we're sitting today, and you're following exactly the same example. Seriously! You've actually learned nothing. If you can't see the future of where this is all going—and anybody with common sense can see where we're going to be next year—then you seriously should not be the government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. This bill should be called the 'Fair work legislation amendment (union workplace takeover) bill', because that's exactly what this is. One of the most extreme elements of the bill gives unions the right to strike under expanded multi-employer bargaining streams, which constitutes an early Christmas present for union bosses and the broader union movement. This will inevitably lead to more strikes across the nation. Labor's so-called handbrake on industrial action is, in reality, like being hit by a piece of wet lettuce. The requirement that employers and unions must enter into compulsory conciliation before legal strikes can occur is a complete farce. I absolutely agree with Senator Lambie, who said in her contribution we are all fearful of what's going to happen in the next 12 months.</para>
<para>I have had many people, some of whom do not support our side of politics, say to me that this is the biggest own goal that Labor could ever deliver. This is a massive own goal. This is giving the union movement the ability to run the country. The only exemption from multi-employer bargaining is for businesses that employ fewer than 20 people. Apart from all the other costs, complexity and fears that businesses will have—some 56,000 businesses employ between 20 and 200 people—it will also stop businesses wanting to employ more than 20 people. If you're a business that employs 10 or 15 people, why on earth would you want to grow? Why on earth would you say, 'Okay, I want to put in another 10 people'?</para>
<para>This is a job destroyer, not a job creator. I will tell you how we know: we know because this dirty rotten plan was not revealed by the Labor Party before the election. If this was such a good policy—and senators opposite know this—Labor would have been championing this policy before the election. But, no, it was kept a secret. It was kept a secret for a very good reason: if Labor had gone out and spoken about the elements of this bill, Labor would not have got elected—not in a million years. Australians would never endorse these extreme IR changes; they simply wouldn't. They would not trust Labor giving this amount of power to the unions.</para>
<para>We know, from when we asked for the modelling in estimates, there is not one scintilla of evidence to support the claim that this is good for jobs and good for wages. This is good for the unions' game plan. In reality, the union movement's biggest gift is the election of the most extreme left-wing Prime Minister in living memory, who doesn't have a ticker, who doesn't have the courage—unlike Paul Keating, unlike Bob Hawke, even unlike Kevin Rudd and Julia Gillard—who doesn't have what it takes to stand up to the union movement to get the balance right in the best interests of all Australians.</para>
<para>I condemn this bill in the strongest possible terms. I condemn the fact that this has been rushed through without giving the opposition and the crossbench an appropriate amount of time to scrutinise this bill. I condemn the fact that the very rudimentary committee process has not given Australians a proper opportunity to make submissions in relation to this bill.</para>
<para>I want to share the response of the Geelong Manufacturing Council. We know that nearly every major employer group across this country has condemned this bill, even the Geelong Manufacturing Council, which was pleading with manufacturers to be exempt from the bill. This is the first time I have ever seen the Geelong Manufacturing Council make a very strong statement like this about a government getting a policy wrong. When we were elected in 2013, Geelong was on its knees. We worked so closely with the council and with Geelong manufacturers after Ford decided to shut down on Labor's watch, when Alcoa was on its knees. Successive coalition governments worked to get Geelong to where it is now. It is an extraordinary development, that the Geelong Manufacturing Council is calling on the Senate not to pass this bill. In fact, in a letter to crossbench senators, the Geelong Manufacturing Council said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Provisions … undermine the system of enterprise bargaining and the comprehensive system of modern awards that have served manufacturing and employees well for decades;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Provisions … risk unfairly subjecting broad sectors to centralised settings of terms and conditions, reducing individual enterprise-level autonomy and competitiveness; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The criteria for access to the 'single interest' bargaining and supported bargaining frameworks may be used to achieve industry sector agreements in a wider range of sectors than purportedly intended.</para></quote>
<para>This is ringing the alarm bells. I say, 'Shame on the member for Corangamite,' and 'Shame on the member for Corio, the Deputy Prime Minister.' In their own backyard, they have failed to listen to the likes of the Geelong Manufacturing Council and to consider the threat that this poses not just to manufacturers in our region, where my office is based, but for manufacturers around the country. So I say, 'Shame on Labor.' This is a disgrace, along with the decision to abolish the ABCC and the Registered Organisations Commission. It is appalling that the likes of John Setka are celebrating the abolition of the ABCC, saying, 'We're now back in town,' and, 'We can now move into non-union workplaces.' This is the biggest gift for the union movement and the extreme elements of the union movement, but it shows how weak and how pathetic this Labor government is. It shows how weak this Prime Minister is. It shows how weak this Deputy Prime Minister is—he couldn't even stand up for manufacturers in Geelong. This bill is appalling. It's going to set our country backwards.</para>
<para>In the very limited time that we have left, I can only urge Senator Pocock: please have a dramatic change of heart. Allow this bill to be properly considered. Do not pass this bill this week without much further work. I absolutely condemn this bill in the strongest terms possible.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. I want to start by commending the work of Adam Bandt in the other place and my Senate colleague Barbara Pocock in securing important improvements and amendments to this legislation. The Greens are committed to getting workers a fair deal at a time when wages are flatlining and the cost of living is spinning out of control. Poverty, ultimately, is a political choice. Whether we are talking about the industrial relations setting in this country that privileges profits over wages or the welfare payments that keep millions below the poverty line, we received a clear mandate for action on this and other measures in the election, and this bill, well, it is a start.</para>
<para>The abolition of the ABCC is absolutely critical and it's an important feature of this bill.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can hear the coalition carrying on over there because their decade of delivering for the bosses is finally a decade in the past. I was lucky enough to watch the film <inline font-style="italic">Lethal Bias</inline> in August in this parliament, and credit to the CFMMEU for bringing that to parliament and for telling the truth about the ABCC. It's a powerful film, and I would recommend it to those who haven't seen it. I commend it to the coalition. It shows the real safety risks, the lethal safety risks, that construction workers face just going to work. And it shows the aggressive anti-union bias of the ABCC in shutting down the unions, prosecuting union officials and union members because they had the wrong sticker on their hard hat or they fly a flag on the crane. Well it is about time we abolished the ABCC. It was nothing more than an attempt to weaken unions, to attack the construction unions, regardless of safety, by the now very former Abbott government. Its removal, like the removal of that Prime Minister and the removal of the coalition government, is well overdue.</para>
<para>We also strongly support the multi-employer bargaining as an important way of delivering improved wages and conditions, especially for those precarious low-paid workers in industries like retail, hospitality and child care. I want to express my high regard for the work of RAFFWU, who have been excellent advocates in this space, as they have been excellent advocates for their members and who are part of why we are seeing this political change and this legal change in the law. It's critically important to ensure that no low-paid workers—no workers—will go backwards with the passage of this bill. We know already millions of workers are doing it tough, and a serious rebalancing is needed solely in favour of those workers across the country who need a fair wage.</para>
<para>It was always the Greens' goal as we reviewed this bill and sought amendments to it in the other place and here to ensure that no worker was worse off. That's why I particularly want to commend the work of my colleagues in ensuring that there are secured guarantees that parents will have for an enforceable right to request unpaid parental leave. I credit Senator Pocock for that work and I also credit the work of Adam Bandt and the team that protected the existing better off overall test, the BOOT test, and especially its coverage for prospective workers. The legislation, as originally drafted, would have removed prospective workers from those protections contained in the BOOT—the better off overall test. That almost inevitably would have seen those workers having lower wages and worse conditions than even applied under a modern award—a real danger in the original drafting of the bill. Thank goodness for the negotiations, the work and the amendments of the Greens to remove those provisions from the bill and protect the BOOT.</para>
<para>Let's be clear, this will be an important win for workers, especially low-paid workers. It's a good check on the work that we are doing in this place, to do our own BOOT test on the legislation, and this legislation well and truly satisfies that test. Workers will now have an enforceable right to unpaid parental leave. There will be better work-life balance. There will be able to be multi-employer bargaining to lift wages, especially in sectors like retail, hospitality and child care. That is a really good start but there is so much more to do.</para>
<para>To those out there who are doing it tough, working full-time and still struggling to afford rent and bills, we hear you. We are working to get laws for workers, not the just those designed to deliver corporate profits or the increased returns for billionaire shareholders. I have to tell you, there is a long list of work still to be done with this, whether it is sick leave for casuals or a move away entirely from casual and insecure work towards solid wages and conditions for all workers and moving towards a four-day working week, where we finally get the balance right between work, our families and our social lives. But for now we're going to stare down the rhetoric, the attacks and the inflated, angry response from the coalition and their few billionaire mates who are opposing this legislation and we're going to legislate this bill. We are going to take that first serious step towards making work fairer in this country.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. We have been saying since the very start that we're happy with the majority of the bill—even more than that, we're happy with 85 per cent. We are happy to support the changes around low-paid workers in feminised industries and low-paid workers more broadly. I am on board with this. I've worked in low-paid jobs myself. I've got family members who are in the paddocks and the factories. They're doing low-paid jobs right now. My partner works in aged care so, believe me, I know how hard it is to make ends meet.</para>
<para>I am here in this place because I want to make good laws that support people who are struggling, but I don't think this is a good law—not all of it anyway. This is good law bundled with bad law. It could be made better but it won't be. It promises things it will never deliver. I wish the government was right when it says that this is all that's standing between low-paid workers and a pay rise before Christmas. I don't believe that at all. That's less than a month away. We all know that won't happen. I'm sorry the government has made this false promise.</para>
<para>What also makes me upset is that the changes this bill is making go far beyond what the government said it will do. The government has pushed these major changes through in a really sloppy way. The government has been a little tricky. There are changes in this bill that they didn't tell us they'd be making; changes they didn't tell the voters about during the election campaign.</para>
<para>This bill will change how employees work with their employers on reaching an agreement about pay and other entitlements. It will change how businesses work with each other to bargain with their employees. It will change who regulates the building and construction industry and registered organisations. It will change how and when strikes can take place.</para>
<para>People have raised concerns with us about some of these changes. We were told that the wishes of small businesses and their employees could be vetoed by unions even if those employees aren't part of the unions. We were told that some employees would be worse off with the changes to flexible work arrangements. Those employees are on a good wicket at the moment. They don't want these changes but they would have to go along with it. We were told that an employer would be included in a bargaining process even if they didn't want to be.</para>
<para>These things don't seem fair to me. I don't understand why one side should have it better than the other. We shouldn't be favouring unions over business. We shouldn't be favouring business over unions. I think there should be equality between both sides in a workplace bargain and this bill doesn't do this. That's why we wanted the government to split this bill. We were happy to pass the 85 per cent, but there's a whole bunch of changes that will be coming with this bill that we wanted more time to look at. We wanted to look more closely at the concerns that were raised with us, concerns like those I just mentioned. Maybe we need all of these changes. The government certainly thinks we do. They think if we don't support it we aren't in favour of getting wages moving. Well, I don't agree with that. I'm in favour of higher wages, of better awards. I would be happy if the government used its power to make those kinds of changes as soon as possible. But I can't stand here with my hand on my heart and say that I agree with all the changes this bill makes. I can't honestly tell you that you would be better off.</para>
<para>The parts of this bill that don't work can be fixed but that takes time and it's what we have been denied throughout this whole process. We need time to get this right. I don't want to get something like this wrong. It's not just me. The negotiations on this bill have been hard. The minister will be the first one to tell you that.</para>
<para>I want to talk a bit about the process now because that's important too. The bill is 250 goddamn pages long and we have had just a month to consider it. A couple of weeks after the bill was introduced, the government put up 150 amendments in the other place—150 of them! That came to 34 pages. This means the government has asked us to consider almost 300 pages of changes to the industrial relations system in the last month. These aren't little changes. They are fundamental changes, and that's not the end of it. There will be more. The government will be putting up a bunch of other amendments that will get Senator Pocock over the line. I haven't seen those amendments yet. How am I supposed to satisfy myself that my vote is in the best interests of the people of Tassie—employees and employers?</para>
<para>I'm sorry to say it, but this whole process has been a bit of a mess. Why didn't the government just try to get this right the first time? If the government took the time to draft this legislation well, if it gave us time to consider these changes in detail, maybe I wouldn't be standing here saying I'm going to be abstaining. I cannot, in good conscience, endorse a bill that has been amended in terms I haven't seen—that I haven't been given the chance to see. I don't want to block this bill, but I wish we had a government that would work with us to find a path to back it—all of it, not just 85 per cent.</para>
<para>If the government had worked with us slowly and carefully, maybe they wouldn't have needed to introduce 150 amendments in the House, and more in the Senate. There are no winners here, but I hope the people back home know that I'm trying to do my best by all of them. It hasn't been easy. My hope is that these concerns that have been raised with us have been addressed through the amendments in the other place and through the amendments Senator Pocock has secured. I guess we will just have to wait and see.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to speak on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. I can hardly say the words 'secure jobs and better pay', because the bill will do neither. Senator Tyrell, bravo to you. That was a great articulation of everything that is wrong with this bill and the utter disgrace it is.</para>
<para>Many of my colleagues have gone through the many ways that this is destructive and duplicitous and spoken about the lack of transparency and consultation for the largest change to our IR system in over 30 years. The government is introducing, as we have heard, 250 pages of legislation that this place has had less than a month to review. There are150 amendments, plus all of these nurses' ball amendments from Senator Pocock. With the greatest degree of hubris I have heard in this chamber in eight years, he is suddenly riding in on a big white horse to save us all from having to do the job that we do very well: scrutinising important, significant legislation for this nation.</para>
<para>I couldn't help thinking last night, while listening to Senator Pocock's extraordinary contribution to this debate, where he referred to himself over 100 times—I have never heard anybody talk about themselves so much in a speech—but it was like he was coming in, this great activist, to save Australian workers, as if he is the only person in this place who wants people to have jobs and to have good conditions and wages as high as can be afforded. Colleagues, let me tell you: Senator Pocock is not riding into Australia on a big white horse to help us all single-handedly; he is riding the trade union Trojan horse into workplaces right across this nation. It is a disgrace.</para>
<para>Sadly, Senator Pocock, the way you have behaved on this legislation, it was clear last night you believed what you were saying: that you can have consultations on behalf of the ACT—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Reynolds, I just remind you to make your remarks to the chair. Thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pocock can say he is saving the people of the ACT through the few consultations he has had with businesses here in the ACT, and somehow it is okay to do that on behalf of all other Australian workers. Through you, Chair, I say this to Senator Pocock: this will be your legacy in this place. As Senator Tyrell has said, this will have devastating consequences. It has not been properly considered.</para>
<para>You have decided. You are in a very, very important position with the balance of power, as a new senator, and you have used it. In one sense, I hope that you have genuinely been duped by Labor and the ACTU on these nurses' ball deals and amendments that you've done that we have not yet seen. I hope that you've been duped and it's not the 30 pieces of silver. Either way, for whatever reason it is—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Reynolds, I remind you, once again, to make your remarks to the chair and to be careful in intimating emotive—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will. I withdraw that expression. Instead of—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Reynolds, you haven't got the call yet. I am reminding you to think about the words before you speak and to impugn another senator by allocating a motive. We've had a bit of a riff on that today, so we might avoid that, if possible. If you would like to continue your remarks, please be mindful of those two points.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw that. I am sorry, I got a bit carried away with my anger at this bill and what is being done by those opposite, the Greens and Labor, with the support of a new senator to this place—well intentioned but who, I believe, has been completely duped. I hope it is just duping and nothing else.</para>
<para>This bill is of great concern to Western Australians. Unfortunately, there has been no opportunity for Western Australian businesses, large and small, to actively engage and comprehensively provide submissions and input into this process, because, again, in this place those opposite, with the support of Senator Pocock, have denied the normal processes. I say shame on all of you because we know what is going to happen. It will not result in an increase in real wages for Australian workers. It will increase exponentially the activism and the reach of trade union movements, which, of course, is what this was all about. Senator Polley gave away the game last night. When one of my colleagues was commenting that this hadn't been consulted on, Senator Polley interjected by saying: 'Of course, we're the Labor Party. What else did you expect we were going to do?' I think that says it all about the ethics and the behaviour of those opposite on this bill.</para>
<para>I say, through you, Chair, to Senator Pocock, as other speakers have done, it is not too late to say: 'I was wrong. We do need more time. We need time to go through the legislation for the committee to do further scrutiny for all Australians to have the opportunity to engage, if they want to, and for this place to do what it does best on behalf of all Australians. That is, scrutinising legislation and amendments in a careful, deliberate way on a bill that will be the most consequential on Australian workers in the last 30 years.'</para>
<para>For all of those reasons and all of the reasons that my colleagues here have said in great detail why this is such bad legislation, I would urge those opposite that it is not too late, because this is not in the best interests of Australian workers.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wasn't intending to give a contribution to this important debate, but I received a letter today which made me think I should actually make sure that these views are put on record. I won't be taking up too much of the chamber's time, for I know it is short. It was a letter all Tasmanian senators received today from the Launceston Chamber of Commerce, and I think it is important to put this on record given the contents of the letter. I will read it out as I think it is important, and I am glad I have a couple of Tasmanian colleagues here to hear me do so. I'm sure they've received the letter, but let's give it voice in this debate, because they have been excluded from consultation on this important piece of legislation which will change the IR landscape in this country.</para>
<para>The letter received today at around lunchtime reads as follows: 'Dear Senator, The Launceston Chamber of Commerce is seriously concerned with the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022 (the bill) and the effect that it will have on business in Launceston and Northern Tasmania, particularly on our small and medium enterprises.</para>
<para>'In July this year, businesses were faced with increasing wage costs, increased super guarantee contributions and now surging electricity prices. Many businesses are still recovering from the dramatic effect of COVID-19, and currently there are very few industries that aren't facing the demands of doing business with staff shortages.</para>
<para>'With the cost of living increasing, it's expected that discretionary spending will drop and, as a consequence, many of our small and medium businesses will see a drop in revenue. The last thing businesses need is rushed new rules and more red tape.</para>
<para>'According to an article in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline>, the regulatory impact statement prepared by the Department of Employment and Workplace Relations showed that small businesses can expect the bargaining process to cost them, on average, $14,638; medium businesses, $75,148; and large businesses, $94,311. These are costs that businesses may not be able to afford and may seriously jeopardise the future of businesses, particularly small and medium businesses in northern Tasmania.</para>
<para>'In addition to the above concerns, we're equally concerned with (1) the pace at which the bill has progressed through the parliament and (2) while we appreciate that amendments to the bill will see businesses with 15 staff or less excluded from the bill, it still means that small businesses with over 15 employees will be forced to adopt workplace arrangements and pay rates that they have had no role in negotiating. We also question the decision to use actual staffing numbers rather than FTEs.</para>
<para>'While we appreciate that the Australian government wants to pass the bill this year, this is an incredibly busy time for most businesses, and we believe it should be held off until the new parliamentary term.</para>
<para>'Above all, we're seriously concerned that business organisations such as the Launceston Chamber of Commerce were not consulted at all or engaged with during the drafting of this legislation. The Launceston Chamber of Commerce does not support the bill and joins the Australian Chamber of Commerce, the Tasmanian Chamber of Commerce and Industry and other business chambers from around Australia in calling the Senate to split the bill to allow further time for careful examination of businesses' concerns. Failing this, we urge the Senate to oppose the bill.'</para>
<para>The letter was sent from Kate Daley, the president, and Will Cassidy, the executive officer. I think it is important to put those concerns on record, because, as I said, the fact that an entity like that has not been consulted in the drafting of the legislation to me is extremely concerning. The LCCI is one of the peak bodies in Tasmania. I know that Senator Brown and Senator Urquhart, one very fine southern Tasmanian senator and one very fine northern Tasmanian senator there—</para>
<para>A government senator: Northwestern!</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Northwestern—I beg your pardon. You are quite right—not the parochialism of something that's rife in our state! But they would be equally concerned, without putting words in their mouths, about the lack of consultation that occurred on the drafting of this bill and the fact that we have legislation before this parliament when entities like that, who represent employer groups, have had no input, no consultation on the initial draft, on the proposed amendments. I note that we now have Senator Askew here as well, another fine northern Tasmanian senator who would share the concerns that the Launceston Chamber of Commerce have provided to us today and another recipient of this letter.</para>
<para>When we are talking about these extreme industrial relations laws we have to acknowledge the points that have been made by many in this debate so far—the devastating impact that some of these changes are going to have, particularly on small to medium business enterprises. We know—and I know you know, Acting Deputy President Henderson—that in small regional communities on the beautiful coast of New South Wales we don't have large employers; we don't have big multinationals occupying hundreds of square metres, employing hundreds of people. They're small to medium businesses. They're the ones who are going to be hit hardest by this. They're the ones who are going to find it hard to make ends meet, as the president and the EO of the Launceston Chamber of Commerce and Industry have said, with this confluence of increasing costs.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Br</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A fine organisation.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a fine organisation, as Senator Bragg says. These increasing costs, surging electricity prices, increasing costs of maintaining property and assets and of meeting employee expenses all come together and put pressure on businesses like there is no tomorrow. In the end, if a business can't make ends meet, if they can't continue to trade, then what are they going to do? They don't operate in perpetuity. They don't just keep trading forever without facing financial pressure and ultimately closing their doors. What happens when a business closes its doors? Employees lose their jobs. I tell you what, if there's one thing worse than not getting a pay rise, it's not having a job—you don't get paid. This is the problem with this. I don't think the consequences have been properly enunciated here.</para>
<para>As I said, I was not intending to make a contribution on this bill; I think my colleagues have very fairly and well canvassed the concerns that have been raised by those in our community who will be impacted, both employees and employers. But there is this letter and the fact that this organisation, so central to northern Tasmania's economy, to small and medium enterprises, has not had a say. I wonder whether Senator Polley, for example, or any of the other Labor senators from Tasmania have reached out to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce. As proponents of the legislation—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I do admire Senator Urquhart's wishful thinking that when I hear an alarm I might stop, but I will not. I shall continue.</para>
<para>A government senator interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know. I'm alert but not alarmed. My point, though, is that I wonder whether any of the Tasmanian Labor contingent have reached out to the Launceston Chamber of Commerce and whether they would accept my invitation today to come on down. I'll join Senator Askew when we get out of this place at the end of this week. I will drive to Launceston and I will meet you there and we can sit down with the board of this organisation—we can perhaps sit down with some of its members—and we can talk through some of their concerns.</para>
<para>It will be interesting to see whether they would be able to sit there and look into the eyes of these businesses that are facing these increased costs and tell them, 'Hey, don't worry. It's all a scare campaign. It will make no difference,' or whether they will hear these concerns and finally realise that these increased costs that are going to get even larger will have an impact on businesses, will have an impact on the capacity to employ and will have an impact on whether these jobs continue to exist.</para>
<para>How can a small business cover the cost of $14,638, on average, to engage in the bargaining process? How can a medium business fork out well on the way to $80,000? Where is that in a business's operating capital in any given year? How is this fair to mum-and-dad businesses, where the people who own the business have mortgaged their homes to ensure that they can keep businesses running. They've taken a risk. They're employing others. How is this in any way fair on those businesses?</para>
<para>It is the opinion of the opposition and, I'm sure, of organisations like the Launceston Chamber of Commerce that these changes will result in more industrial action. These changes will result in more strikes. These changes will result in a situation where there will be a reduction in productivity. The changes will harm the economy more broadly and, again, are going to have an impact on whether people are able to keep their jobs or not. This is the end result. This is the issue we are talking about here. Everyone wants a pay rise and—do you know what?—it's good that people get pay rises. I know that my family, who have run small businesses up until very recently, always paid above award. That's good, because you have to do that to attract good employees. No-one wants to employ a bad employee. You want to treat good employees well so they stay, so you do what you can to keep them. But in this situation, where costs are going to become so burdensome on a business, even paying the wage bill is going to become impossible. As I said before, the end result will be that a business can no longer operate. It will no longer be solvent, perhaps. It will look at laying off staff to make ends meet. To that end, I share the concerns of the Launceston Chamber of Commerce. I do support the views that they've expressed, and I look forward to Senator Brown, Senator Urquhart, Senator Polley and Senator Bilyk coming on a drive with me to Launceston to catch up with the good folk of the Launceston Chamber of Commerce and justifying to them why they support this disastrous bill.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is an important opportunity for all of us to make some remarks on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill, which is part of the Labor government's agenda for business, apparently, and for driving the economy. This is one of their major initiatives. I have often referred to this government as the government for vested interests. I will, perhaps, trademark the term at some stage. The reason I call it the government for vested interests—it will catch on, don't worry—is that, if you are a class action law firm or a big industry super fund or a union, you go to the top of the list. Your log of claims—the grievances you may have about your legal situation—are considered very carefully by this government. If you are a punter, a consumer, you've got no chance of getting your issues examined by this government, because these organisations, who are fellow travellers with the Labor Party—some of them are financial fellow travellers, some of them are perhaps social groupies—are dominating this government's agenda.</para>
<para>I'm not a terribly partisan person and I have sometimes agreed with the Labor Party over the years, but I'd have to say that the budget, which is supposed to be the centrepiece of any government's overall economic strategy, was extraordinary in its lack of focus on small business and on driving private investment and growth. That is because, when you are solely focused on working through a log of claims from various bloodsuckers and rent seekers, you miss the broader economic issues that the country faces. So what the budget did not have was a set of policies to drive enterprise and small business. Instead we see a hodgepodge of random pieces of legislation which have clogged up this parliament, which have all been written down at Trades Hall or Casselden Place—or wherever all the super funds people live—or down at the class action law firms. The manifestation of being the government for vested interests is legislation for vested interests.</para>
<para>About 120 years ago there were these two countries called Australia and Argentina, and they were both similarly quite wealthy. Then Australia and Argentina went down very different tracks in the 20th century. In the main, Australia has been run generally quite well by people who were prepared to take a broader view and take the public interest into account when creating economic policies. Some of those policies have been bad, but I think they were genuinely created with the view of taking the public interest into account. Meanwhile, our friends in Argentina had their governments overrun by vested interests—small cabals of people and groups that put their narrow self-interest ahead of the national interest. They put themselves at the centre of the economic and policy settings of that country.</para>
<para>We are now in a situation where a small group of organisations—unions and super funds and class action law firms—are basically being given the keys to the city. We have heard in this chamber many times over these past weeks discussion about Mr Stephen Jones, who's the Assistant Treasurer. So far, he'd be winning the gold in terms of the government for vested interests. He's the chief featherer of nests in the government for vested interests, but Mr Dreyfus is probably not too far behind, with his efforts on class action lawyers. Of course, the silver medallist here is Mr Burke, with this hodgepodge bill that we're considering here. It's all part of trying to deliver the same big plan.</para>
<para>As I said, I'm not a very partisan person but, being a parliamentarian, I do think about politics from time to time, and it's clear that the Labor Party's political strategy here is to pay off all these people and get them off our backs so we don't have to do any more of this crap in the next two years of our term. Their view is that this stuff is probably not too flash for the economy—I'm sure that's their real view—but they've just got to get these people off their backs. This is the pay-off: putting the unions back in the centre of the economy, stripping away transparency from super fund members and removing regulations to require class action law firms to act in the best interests of members. That's just a pay-off.</para>
<para>Then, when we get to year 2, we might think about what the broader issues are that the economy is facing, and we might do a budget, which might mention small business, maybe, if we can discover what a small business is—one that hasn't been unionised and run into the ground. But, of course, when you hate small business, when it's in your DNA to do so, you tend to forget about it some days. Sometimes you can hate and forget about things; trust me. So we might see a budget that mentions small business. We might even see a budget which presents some policies designed to increase private investment, because that is actually going to be the measure of whether or not this economy is going to be able to create more jobs in the future. More jobs in the future: that is their stated objective, I'm sure.</para>
<para>Of course, we hear about higher wages. Now, I have to say that, of all the strange things that people get away with in this building, perhaps the greatest of them all is the unions and the Labor Party talking about their concern about wages. If they were really worried about wages, they would've listened to Mr Kennedy's address to Senate estimates, in which he said that 80 per cent of the wage increases which are projected in the budget would be eaten up by increases in compulsory super. So here we are again—another scheme to enrich and refeather the nest. It's a pretty good nest. I'll tell you what: it's a pretty flash nest. It's warm. It would get you through a Canberra winter. It's a nice nest, but the nest is eating up the wage increases. They come into the chamber and talk about their concerns about the lack of wages growth. Well, 80 per cent of the wages growth is not going to the workers; it's going off to the bloodsuckers at the super funds, who charge high fees on it. It's going into a locked box that they can't get access to. But that is a blind spot for these people.</para>
<para>The Labor Party has a series of blind spots, and, of course, in the budget we see this hilarious policy called the Housing Accord, which is basically that we will pay the super funds $350 million to buy people's houses—and to build people's houses perhaps. This is on top of the $150 billion that they receive each and every year in compulsory contributions, as measured by APRA. So we're going to give the super funds more public money to own the people's houses. But we're against the people using their own super to have their own houses. They are so blinded by the propaganda and the ideology that they've eaten and consumed for 30 years, which is now pushed and recirculated by the vested interests which make huge donations to their party. And, of course, they're filtered through the super funds.</para>
<para>This takes us back to our other favourite issue: the removal of transparency from the super funds. Mr Jones's first act as the Assistant Treasurer was to remove transparency from the super funds. As a result, by the end of this decade, $30 million will have been paid from the super funds into the unions. But Mr Jones has now made a regulation which covers that up. People are now getting their annual member statements from their super funds—I got one today—and it's now aggregated so you can't actually see how much money is going where. Under our regulation, you could see that, okay, I'm in super fund A and it has sent $3 million to this union and $5 million to this related party. Now you can't see any of that information, so it is a very good example of the distorted priorities of this government with regard to vested interests.</para>
<para>But, in relation to these matters, you'd have to say that the chief of the vested interests is probably the ACTU—although it could be the Cbus Super fund. They have a fellow called Mr Wayne Swan as their president, and he's also the president of the Labor party. He's been out in the media this week saying that the Cbus Super fund will be giving $500 million of their money to the Housing Accord. We have no idea how it will work, but I'm thinking that maybe he could have some inside information because he's got the dual hat thing happening. He's running the Labor Party and he's running the Cbus Super fund, so he must know how the scheme works before the rest of the market knows, which is another example of these vested interests.</para>
<para>But, of course, this bill is designed to smash small business. Labor hates small business. They always have. They've always hated the idea that no union officials are on these sites. This is designed to try and turn the clock back, not to try and create jobs. It's certainly not designed to create a higher wage environment. If they wanted to do that, they would have made the super system voluntary in some form. This is about ensuring that there is a role, relevance, and funding for their greatest cash cow, the unions.</para>
<para>When the Labor Party talk about a donation reform and a campaign finance reform, I always think that's a great thing to hear about because, of course, they always want to try and capture the political parties but leave out the key campaigners, the people with the most money, who run campaigns in this country—the unions, the super funds, and all their other fellow travellers. Personally, I think we are going in the wrong direction on this particular issue. I've long favoured the idea of a very simple, very clean, small business award with basic conditions that protect people from exploitation and whatnot. But we are going in the wrong direction. We are going for full reregulation by putting these vested interests back at the centre of negotiations.</para>
<para>Why would a small business that doesn't have any members of the unions, that doesn't want to have anything to do with the union, have to negotiate with the union? It's absolutely insane. To think that 10 per cent of the workforce now is covered by unions, and we're trying to turn ourselves into a nimble, agile economy, competing with the rest of the world, trying to attract marginal capital and the best minds the world has to offer, and here we are trying to bung up the economy with all these additional obligations to bring the past back into the future. It is just absolutely insane. As I say, when your frame of reference is, 'Well, we don't put small business in our budget, and therefore we don't care about it. We historically haven't liked it.' It's probably not a great surprise that here we are saying, 'Okay, we're actually now going to bring the unions back into the small business world.'</para>
<para>The whole idea of multi-employer bargaining, which is estimated to cost up to $23,000 for a small business, which is a significant sum for a small business—when you've only ever spent your whole life working for the Public Service, I guess you don't really have any sense of that—it would cost $130,000 for a medium business and even more for a large business. The principles apply. I've always thought the segmentation between large and small was quite weird. We want small businesses to become large businesses. There's nothing wrong with big businesses. Certainly multinational corporations that engage in base erosion and tax evasion should be brought to heel, but there is nothing wrong with big business. So the idea that we try and bung up the work for big business is the same logic you would apply to small business.</para>
<para>In terms of the caveats that have been negotiated here, I'm not sure how good they'll be. My starting principle would be: Why do you need to have a union with these businesses in the first place, given you already have extensive legal protections in the law? And the people that are saying they're worried about wages growth are the same people that are stealing the money through the compulsory super increases. They're taking 80 per cent of the wages increases. Every time I hear these people come in here or talk out there when they're doing their silly press conferences and talk about wages, it is absolute rubbish. This whole agenda and this government's focus is on the vested interests and making that great big cushy, feathered nest a goose or down pillow and making it as best as they can for themselves. They're only interested in their own narrow self-interest. Unless we're careful, we will be the next Argentina—a once-strong country run into the ground by dodgy and dirty vested interests.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Unfortunately, I have to rise and speak on the Fair Work Legislation Amendment (Secure Jobs, Better Pay) Bill 2022. It's disappointing to have to do so, because all my life I've categorised the Labor Party as being the wreckers of the Australian workforce. I grew up listening to my father constantly telling me how the wharfies went on strike in World War II and wouldn't help our troops out and export our wool et cetera et cetera.</para>
<para>I don't really see this bill as being the final nail in the coffin for small industry and small business here in Australia—no, no, no. The Labor Party put the final nail in the coffin of small business a long time ago. I call this the grave digger's bill. Basically we're now chucking dirt on small business so that they'll be completely forgotten about and erased from history, six feet under, with this ridiculous idea that we can have multi-pattern bargaining.</para>
<para>That is Labor for you. They have to mandate everything. They just have to. There is no individual in the Labor Party's psyche. No, it's just communism: 'We're going to own all the property, we're going to have one set of rules.' We see that constantly. Everything the Labor Party does is all about centralisation, command and control. We saw it with superannuation in the early 1990s, where they slowly but surely raised the superannuation level from two per cent to 12 per cent. If they get their way and get a second term—they're already talking about it—they'll lift it to 15 per cent. Why don't you just take 100 per cent of it now? This is the Labor Party.</para>
<para>It's the same with child care. They want to tell parents that if you want any childcare support you have to give it to the childcare centre, because that way they get to unionise parenthood. This is actually why they push child care so high; without child care, the union movement, which is down to about 10 per cent of the workforce, would be much, much smaller. The only union that is rising in this country is United Workers Union, because of the subsidies going into the childcare sector. It goes on and on and on. We see it with the renewable energy target. It started off at five per cent, then it went to 23 per cent, then it's going to go to 43 per cent, and then it's going to be net zero. It will go on and on and on.</para>
<para>It's important to note just how much damage the Labor Party has done to industry and especially to small business. I want to reflect on the election last weekend. Of course Labor is gloating because they won. They won the election, that's right, but you know who lost: Victoria. Victoria didn't just lose out last weekend; they started to lose out 40 years ago when former Labor senator for Victoria John Button introduced the Button plan, which was the first step in the destruction of the manufacturing industry in Victoria. Victoria was once the jewel in the crown of the Liberal Party because of that strong manufacturing base that has had the guts ripped out of it. If they weren't forced to close down, they've gone offshore, because effectively we had this crazy neoliberal ideology that somehow we were going to compete against cheap Asian imports. It never happened. All that's done is destroy Victoria.</para>
<para>Combine the Button plan in 1985 with the Dawkins plan in 1990, where everyone got to go to university and get a degree. Because of that ridiculous policy that was introduced, another crazy Hawke-Keating policy, we've now got the situation where we have all of these students and Marxist academics controlling Victoria. A couple of years later, we got compulsory superannuation, which gave us another army of financial engineers in Victoria. Most of the industry super funds are centred in Victoria. These guys have well over $1 trillion and there's over $3 trillion and climbing in super. It is effectively going to be bigger than our GDP. This wealth is centralised in the hands of unelected board members.</para>
<para>I want to talk about democracy. We are not living in a democratic society in this country. When you have got trillions of dollars of wealth and our infrastructure controlled by unelected superannuation boards, both private and industry—I'm not taking sides when it comes to superannuation; the whole lot of it is communism and Marxism and fascism rolled into one, if you ask me. The fact that we then walked away from TAFE—the hands-on people that actually built things in this country—destroyed our manufacturing sector and destroyed our small businesses. We have now got more people on the teat of the nation, relying on government handouts through universities, through ever-increasing superannuation policy—academics, you name it. It has made our country very, very unproductive.</para>
<para>Then we move forward two generations. We had the introduction of the Fair Work Act. Of course, there is nothing fair about the Fair Work Act. Interestingly enough, the head of the Fair Work Commission was Iain Ross, who Paul Keating himself admitted was the architect of superannuation, along with himself and Bill Kelty. They must have been sitting back there in a room somewhere in the early nineties, thinking, 'How can we take over this country?' I have to hand it to the Labor Party, because when it comes to bringing in communism by stealth in this country, you guys have done a very, very good job of it. I can tell you that I've had over 30 years in finance and I've never seen freedom as a line item on the balance sheet; if you want to be free you have to be productive. Our freedom comes from affluence, which comes from productivity. We should never ever forget that. Indeed, Robert Menzies himself said that we should not go back to the old and selfish notions of laissez-faire. He also said that the rich and powerful should look after themselves.</para>
<para>While we were focusing on the so-called ideology of the free market, the left over there, the unions, were actually ripping out ever-increasing amounts of superannuation from workers' pay packets. I fail to see how they think we can live in a country with a free market when the government is taking a percentage of workers' wages. They never even asked them; there was never a referendum about superannuation in this country. New Zealand had a referendum about compulsory superannuation and they voted against it 92 per cent to eight per cent. But no, we weren't asked about that in this country. The Labor Party just decided to jack it up, and they're pinching money. This is super, right? This is what they do with superannuation—I'll tell you what that little ad where they do this with their hands is symbolic of. What happens then is that the industry funds take their fees and then Labor comes along and picks up the fees behind their backs, just like that. That's the way that the Labor Party works. This is another bit of compliance on small business. You have to fill out your superannuation forms and you have all these rules. It's more compliance for small business and it takes a lot of time. I've worked in public practices before and it's very time-consuming just to pay that extra nine going on 10½ per cent.</para>
<para>But this bill is riddled with so much conflict, complexity and uncertainty. Industry is extremely concerned; they don't want to be dragged into multi-enterprise bargaining. It's based on this very vague notion of a 'common interest'. Well, I can tell you that that common interest is doublespeak for communism. I can just see this ending up in court. Can you just imagine going to the Fair Work Commission with the words 'common interest'? Fair Work is stacked with Labor appointees and they're actually going to punish small business at every opportunity they get. It's going to make it very difficult. And this will actually punish the workers of this country, because small business just won't want to employ anybody when they can be held to ransom by such vague terms as 'common interest'.</para>
<para>I don't know about you, but all these vague notions do my head in. Coming from a background in mathematics I have to find out how all these warm and fuzzy terms that Labor use hide their communism, Marxism and all that sort of stuff—it's all very scary. But I can assure you that what this bill will do, apart from put people out of work, is increase the cost of living and, if it doesn't send businesses broke, it's going to send them offshore. It's certainly not going to attract other companies to come in and set up business here. Why would you, when you can be held to ransom by the Fair Work Act? It's a real concern, and it's not surprising because this is what Labor do. They aren't going to finish until there is no more private property left in this country and free thought is completely destroyed. 'No, no, we don't want private property in this country,' this is the way the Labor Party think: 'and we don't want businesses to be flexible, innovative and able to think for themselves. And we don't want the employee and the employer to build up a relationship between each other.' With enterprise bargaining you could trust the employer and the employee. We would actually let them negotiate the best terms and tailor those so that they suited them.</para>
<para>That's why I don't believe in any mandates; it's why I took a stand on vaccine mandates, because I think you've got to respect the individual. That is what this party should stand for—the dignity and worth of every individual. It's got to stand for the freedom of choice and the freedom of conscience. We've got to have flexibility and the ability to innovate. That sort of stuff is what creates enterprise and entrepreneurialship that will drive productivity in this country. With productivity comes affluence, and with affluence comes freedom and the ability not to have to rely on that—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DE</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Rennick. The time for debate has expired. It being after 6.30 pm, all the questions on the second reading will now be put.</para>
<para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator O'Sullivan on behalf of Senator Cash on sheet 1967 be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:34] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Chandler) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the second reading amendment in my name as circulated on sheet 1772:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) remove all provisions of the bill which give their trade union donors the power to veto agreements; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) tighten the 'common interest test' under the 'single interest employer stream' to follow the current considerations the Minister is required to follow under the <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009 </inline>as it stands".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Brockman on sheet 1772 be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:39] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Chandler)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bill be read a second time.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:46] <br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Chandler) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>93</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to the government amendments to be moved to this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a question for the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations. Last night, when I circulated an amendment to the NACC Bill before we moved to the Committee of the Whole, you cried wolf about not having adequate time to even consider it. You said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Well, Senator Lambie, I don't think people just dump amendments on people and then expect them to vote for them. We will not be supporting the amendment. I'm reading this amendment for the first time myself.</para></quote>
<para>My amendment was one page and dealt with one issue. The government's amendments were circulated at 6.23 tonight. They're nine pages long. My question is simple: why are you not giving us adequate time to make informed decisions about how these changes will actually affect the people of Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As Senator Lambie would know, the amendments that have been circulated on behalf of the government deal with matters that have been well traversed in the public debate, especially over the last few days. They are a result of the discussions that the government has had with Senator Pocock. On that basis, I seek leave to move all items on sheet PV124 together.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 5 (at the end of the table), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 371, page 86 (line 21), omit "relating to", substitute "that the President considers might relate to".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 371, page 86 (line 28), omit "relating to", substitute "that the President considers might relate to".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 371, page 87 (line 5), omit "relating to", substitute "that the President considers might relate to".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 371, page 87 (line 11), omit "relating to", substitute "that the President considers might relate to".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 371, page 87 (line 17), omit "relating to", substitute "that the President considers might relate to".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, item 371, page 87 (after line 22), after subsection 617(10), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">President's considerations</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10A) For the purposes of subsections (6), (7), (8), (9) and (10), if the President considers that an equal remuneration order, determination or modern award might relate to the Care and Community Sector, it does not matter if the President considers that the equal remuneration order, determination or modern award might also relate to another sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, item 372, page 88 (before line 1), before section 617A, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">617AA Full Bench and Expert Panel with identical membership</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) This section applies if a Full Bench and an Expert Panel consist of the same FWC Members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) In performing its functions or exercising its powers, the Full Bench is not limited by:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the functions or powers of the Expert Panel; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the purposes for which the Expert Panel was constituted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) In performing its functions or exercising its powers, the Expert Panel is not limited by the functions or powers of the Full Bench.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Without limiting subsection (2) or (3), a reference in this section to performing a function or exercising a power includes a reference to the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) making a determination or modern award under subsection 157(1);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) making a determination under subsection 157(2);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) making an equal remuneration order under section 302;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) performing a function or exercising a power under section 159, 160 or 161 (about variations of modern awards).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) This section is enacted for the avoidance of doubt.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Schedule 1, item 437, page 118 (line 24), omit "After Part 6-4C", substitute "Before Part 6-5".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Schedule 1, item 437, page 119 (line 1), omit "Part 6-4D", substitute "Part 6-4E".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Schedule 1, item 441, page 123 (lines 32 to 33), omit subparagraph 333E(5)(d)(ii), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the current contract contains an option for renewal or extension;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iia) the previous contract contained an option for extension that has been exercised;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Schedule 1, item 463, page 135 (lines 18 to 25), omit subsection 65B(4), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) If a dispute is referred under subsection (3):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the FWC must first deal with the dispute by means other than arbitration, unless there are exceptional circumstances; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the FWC may deal with the dispute by arbitration in accordance with section 65C.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: For the purposes of paragraph (a), the FWC may deal with the dispute as it considers appropriate. The FWC commonly deals with disputes by conciliation. The FWC may also deal with the dispute by mediation, making a recommendation or expressing an opinion (see subsection 595(2)).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Schedule 1, item 463, page 136 (lines 14 to 20), omit paragraphs 65C(1)(c) to (e), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) if the FWC is satisfied that the employer has not responded, or has not responded adequately, to the employee's request under section 65A—an order that the employer take such further steps as the FWC considers appropriate, having regard to the matters in section 65A;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Schedule 1, item 463, page 136 (after line 26), at the end of subsection 65C(1), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: An order by the FWC under paragraph (e) could, for example, require the employer to give a response, or further response, to the employee's request, and could set out matters that must be included in the response or further response.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Schedule 1, Part 11, page 138 (after line 9), at the end of the Part, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Division 5 — Pre gnancy</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">469A Before paragraph 65(1A)(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(aa) the employee is pregnant;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Schedule 1, page 160 (after line 6), after item 488, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">488A Section 12</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">voting request order</inline>: see subsections 240A(1) and (2).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Schedule 1, item 506B, page 162 (lines 12 to 16), omit subsection 180A(2), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) An employer must not request under subsection 181(1) that employees approve the enterprise agreement by voting for it unless:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) each bargaining representative for the enterprise agreement that is an employee organisation has provided the employer with written agreement to the making of the request; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a voting request order permits the employer to make the request.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Voting request orders can be made where failure to provide written agreement to the making of a request is unreasonable in the circumstances (see section 240B).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Schedule 1, item 511A, page 166 (lines 10 to 13), omit subsection 207A(2), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) An employer must not request under subsection 208(1) that employees approve the variation by voting for it unless:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) each employee organisation covered by the enterprise agreement has provided the employer with written agreement to the making of the request; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a voting request order permits the employer to make the request.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Voting request orders can be made where failure to provide written agreement to the making of a request is unreasonable in the circumstances (see section 240B).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(19) Schedule 1, page 167 (after line 15), after item 519, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">519A At the end of Division 8 of Part 2-4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Subdivision E — Voting request orders</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">240A Application to FWC for voting request order</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Proposed multi-enterprise agreement</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) After the notification time for a proposed multi-enterprise agreement, a bargaining representative for the enterprise agreement may apply to the FWC for an order (a <inline font-style="italic">voting request order</inline>) permitting an employer to make a request under subsection 181(1) that employees approve the enterprise agreement by voting for it if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) each bargaining representative for the enterprise agreement that is an employee organisation has been asked to provide the employer with written agreement to the making of the request; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) one or more of the employee organisations has failed to provide the written agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Variation of multi-enterprise agreement</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person referred to in subsection (3) may apply to the FWC for an order (also a <inline font-style="italic">voting request order</inline>) permitting an employer to make a request under subsection 208(1) that employees approve a variation of a multi-enterprise agreement by voting for it if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) each employee organisation covered by the enterprise agreement has been asked to provide the employer with written agreement to the making of the request; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) one or more of the employee organisations has failed to provide the written agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The persons are the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an employer covered by the enterprise agreement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an employee organisation covered by the enterprise agreement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) an affected employee for the variation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">240B FWC must make voting request order</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The FWC must, on application under subsection 240A(1) or (2), make a voting request order permitting an employer to make a request if the FWC is satisfied that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) for each employee organisation that has failed to provide written agreement to the making of the request, the failure was unreasonable in the circumstances; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if the request relates to approval of a proposed enterprise agreement—the making of the request by the employer would not be inconsistent with or undermine good faith bargaining for the enterprise agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(20) Schedule 1, page 169 (before line 3), before item 525, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">524A Section 12 (definition of <inline font-style="italic">prospectiv</inline> <inline font-style="italic">e award covered employee</inline> )</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the definition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">524B Section 12</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">reasonably foreseeable employee</inline> for an enterprise agreement: see subsection 193(5).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(21) Schedule 1, item 526, page 170 (lines 6 and 7), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">526 Subsection 193(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "prospective award covered", substitute "reasonably foreseeable".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">526A At the end of subsection 193(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 1: <inline font-style="italic">Reasonably foreseeable employee</inline> is defined in subsection (5).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 2: Section 193A sets out rules for applying the better off overall test, including requiring the FWC to only have regard to patterns or kinds of work, or types of employment, that are reasonably foreseeable at the test time (see subsection 193A(6)).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">526B Subsection 193(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "prospective award covered", substitute "reasonably foreseeable".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">526C Subsection 193(5) (heading)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the heading, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Reasonably foreseeable employee</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">526D Subsection 193(5)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "<inline font-style="italic">prospective award covered</inline>", substitute "<inline font-style="italic">reasonably foreseeable</inline>".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(22) Schedule 1, item 528, page 170 (lines 17 and 18), omit "who is covered by the agreement at the test time", substitute "concerned".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(23) Schedule 1, item 528, page 170 (lines 26 to 28), omit subsection 193A(2A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(24) Schedule 1, item 528, page 171 (line 20), at the end of subsection 193A(6), add "In considering what is reasonably foreseeable, the FWC must have regard to the nature of the enterprise or enterprises to which the agreement relates.".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(25) Schedule 1, item 528, page 171 (after line 20), after subsection 193A(6), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6A) The FWC must determine whether a particular pattern or kind of work, or type of employment, is reasonably foreseeable for the purposes of subsection (6) if a view is expressed by any of the following that it is, or is not, reasonably foreseeable:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the employer or employers that are covered by the agreement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if the agreement is not a greenfields agreement—the award covered employees for the agreement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) in any case—a bargaining representative for the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(26) Schedule 1, item 531, page 172 (line 24), at the end of subsection 211(4A), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (c) the words "if the agreement is not a greenfields agreement—" in paragraph (6A)(b) were omitted; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the words "in any case—a bargaining representative for the agreement" in paragraph (6A)(c) were omitted and the words "the employee organisation or employee organisations that are covered by the agreement" were substituted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(27) Schedule 1, item 534, page 174 (line 5), omit "or (3)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(28) Schedule 1, item 534, page 174 (line 26) to page 175 (line 4), omit subsection 227A(3).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(29) Schedule 1, item 534, page 176 (line 3), at the end of subsection 227B(2), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (g) the words "if the agreement is not a greenfields agreement—" in paragraph 193A(6A)(b) were omitted; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the words "in any case—a bargaining representative for the agreement" in paragraph 193A(6A)(c) were omitted and the words "the employee organisation or employee organisations that are covered by the agreement" were substituted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(30) Schedule 1, item 534, page 176 (line 21), omit paragraph 227B(4)(b), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if another day is specified in the amendment (which may be a day before the amendment is made)—that other day.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(31) Schedule 1, item 534, page 176 (after line 21), at the end of section 227B, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) The FWC must specify a day before the amendment is made for the purposes of paragraph (4)(b) if the FWC considers that it is necessary for the amendment to operate from the earlier day to address the concern to which the amendment relates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(32) Schedule 1, item 534, page 177 (after line 13), at the end of Division 7A, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">227E No creation of liability to pay pecuniary penalty for past conduct</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Application of this section</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) This section applies if an amendment of an enterprise agreement made under paragraph 227B(3)(b) has a retrospective effect because it comes into operation on a day before the day on which the amendment is made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">No creation of liability to pay pecuniary penalty for past conduct</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a person engaged in conduct before the amendment was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) but for the retrospective effect of the amendment, the conduct would not have contravened a term of the enterprise agreement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">a court must not order a person to pay a pecuniary penalty under Division 2 of Part 4-1 in relation to the conduct, on the grounds that the conduct contravened a term of an enterprise agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: This section does not affect the powers of a court to make other kinds of orders under Division 2 of Part 4-1.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(33) Schedule 1, Part 16, page 177 (after line 13), at the end of the Part, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">534A Subsection 546(1) (note)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "Note", substitute "Note 1".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">534B At the end of subsection 546(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 2: Pecuniary penalty orders cannot be made in relation to conduct that contravenes a term of an enterprise agreement only because of the retrospective effect of an amendment made under paragraph 227B(3)(b) (see subsection 227E(2)).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(34) Schedule 1, page 187 (after line 18), after item 552, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">552A After paragraph 275(c)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ca) the significance, to those employers and employees, of any arrangements or benefits in an enterprise agreement that, immediately before the determination is made, applies to any of the employers in respect of any of the employees;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(35) Schedule 1, item 584, page 195 (lines 1 to 8), to be opposed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(36) Schedule 1, item 597, page 202 (line 8), omit "paragraph 243(1)(c)", substitute "paragraphs 243(1)(c) and (2A)(a)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(37) Schedule 1, item 597, page 202 (line 14), at the end of section 216AC, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; (d) as if all of the words in paragraph 243(2A)(b) were replaced with the words "the affected employees are, at the time the application for approval of the variation is being considered, employees in an industry, occupation or sector declared by the Minister under subsection (2B)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(38) Schedule 1, item 611, page 208 (line 3), omit the heading to subsection 243(1), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Supported bargaining authorisation</inline> <inline font-style="italic">—</inline> <inline font-style="italic">main case</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(39) Schedule 1, item 611, page 208 (after line 23), at the end of subsection 243(1), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: This subsection is subject to section 243A (restrictions on making supported bargaining authorisations).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(40) Schedule 1, item 611, page 208 (after line 32), after subsection 243(2), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Supported bargaining authorisation</inline> <inline font-style="italic">—</inline> <inline font-style="italic">declared industry etc.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2A) The FWC must also make a supported bargaining authorisation in relation to a proposed multi-enterprise agreement if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an application for the authorisation has been made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the employees specified in the application are employees in an industry, occupation or sector declared by the Minister under subsection (2B).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: This subsection is subject to section 243A (restrictions on making supported bargaining authorisations).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2B) The Minister may, by legislative instrument, declare an industry, occupation or sector, if the Minister is satisfied that doing so is consistent with the objects of this Division set out in section 241.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(41) Schedule 1, item 611, page 209 (before line 8), before subsection 243A(1), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Relationship between this section and section 243</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1A) Section 243 has effect subject to this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(42) Schedule 1, item 614, page 210 (lines 3 to 11), omit subsection 244(4), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) If an application is made under subsection (3), the FWC must vary the authorisation to add the employer's name if the FWC is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so, taking into account:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) if the employer's employees are in an industry, occupation or sector declared by the Minister under subsection 243(2B)—the declaration; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if paragraph (a) of this subsection does not apply—the matters set out in paragraph 243(1)(b); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) any other matters the FWC considers appropriate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4A) Despite subsection (4), the FWC must not vary the authorisation if subsection 243A(1) (employees covered by single-enterprise agreement that has not passed nominal expiry date) would prevent the FWC from making a supported bargaining authorisation specifying the employees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(43) Schedule 1, item 629, page 216 (line 25), omit "met.", substitute "met; and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(44) Schedule 1, item 629, page 216 (after line 25), at the end of paragraph 216DC(1)(b), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) if the requirements of subsection (3) are met—the operations and business activities of the employer are reasonably comparable with those of the other employers who are covered by the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1AA) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application for approval of the variation was made by an employee organisation under section 216DB; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the employer that will be covered by the agreement employed 50 employees or more at the time that the application was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">it is presumed for the purposes of subparagraph (1)(b)(v) that the operations and business activities of the employer are reasonably comparable with those of the other employers that are covered by the agreement, unless the contrary is proved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(45) Schedule 1, item 629, page 216 (lines 28 and 29), omit paragraph 216DC(1A)(a), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the employer that will be covered by the agreement employed at least 20 employees at the time that the application for approval of the variation was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(46) Schedule 1, item 629, page 218 (after line 4), after subsection 216DC(3A), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3AB) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application for approval of the variation was made by an employee organisation under section 216DB; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the employer that will be covered by the agreement employed 50 employees or more at the time that the application was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">it is presumed that the requirements of subsection (3) are met, unless the contrary is proved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Calculating number of employees</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3AC) For the purposes of calculating the number of employees referred to in paragraph (1AA)(b), (1A)(a) or (3AB)(b):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) <inline font-style="italic">employee</inline> has its ordinary meaning; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) subject to paragraph (c), all employees employed by the employer at the time that the application was made are to be counted; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a casual employee is not to be counted unless, at that time, the employee is a regular casual employee of the employer; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) associated entities of the employer are taken to be one entity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(47) Schedule 1, item 629, page 218 (line 18), omit "6 months", substitute "9 months".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(48) Schedule 1, item 633A, page 222 (line 10), omit "met.", substitute "met; and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(49) Schedule 1, item 633A, page 222 (after line 10), at the end of paragraph 249(1)(b), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) if the requirements of subsection (3) are met—the operations and business activities of each of those employers are reasonably comparable with those of the other employers that will be covered by the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1AA) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application for the authorisation was made by a bargaining representative under paragraph 248(1)(b); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an employer that will be covered by the agreement employed 50 employees or more at the time that the application was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">it is presumed that the operations and business activities of the employer are reasonably comparable with those of the other employers that will be covered by the agreement, unless the contrary is proved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(50) Schedule 1, item 633A, page 222 (line 20), omit paragraph 249(1B)(a), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the employer employed at least 20 employees at the time that the application for the authorisation was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(51) Schedule 1, item 634A, page 223 (after line 33), after subsection 249(3A), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3AB) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application for the authorisation was made by a bargaining representative under paragraph 248(1)(b); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an employer that will be covered by the agreement employed 50 employees or more at the time that the application was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">it is presumed that the requirements of subsection (3) are met in relation to that employer, unless the contrary is proved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Calculating number of employees</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3AC) For the purposes of calculating the number of employees referred to in paragraph (1AA)(b), (1B)(a) or (3AB)(b):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) <inline font-style="italic">employee</inline> has its ordinary meaning; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) subject to paragraph (c), all employees employed by the employer at the time that the application for the authorisation was made are to be counted; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a casual employee is not to be counted unless, at that time, the employee is a regular casual employee of the employer; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) associated entities of the employer are taken to be one entity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(52) Schedule 1, item 636A, page 224 (line 30), omit "6 months", substitute "9 months".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(53) Schedule 1, item 637, page 225 (lines 14 to 23), omit subsection 251(2), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The FWC must vary the authorisation to remove the employer's name if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an application has been made under subsection (1); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the requirements of either subsection (2A) or (2B) are met.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2A) The requirements of this subsection are met if the FWC is satisfied that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the employers specified in the authorisation and the bargaining representatives of the employees of those employers have had an opportunity to express to the FWC their views (if any) on the application; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) because of a change in the employer's circumstances, it is no longer appropriate for the employer to be specified in the authorisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2B) The requirements of this subsection are met if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application was made by a bargaining representative of an employee who will be covered by the proposed enterprise agreement to which the authorisation relates; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the FWC is satisfied that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the employer (the <inline font-style="italic">relevant employer</inline>) whose name is proposed to be removed employed fewer than 50 employees at the time that the application was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the employers specified in the authorisation and the bargaining representatives of the employees of those employers have had the opportunity to express to the FWC their views (if any) on the application; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the employees (the <inline font-style="italic">relevant employees</inline>) who are employed by the relevant employer and that would be covered by the proposed enterprise agreement to which the authorisation relates have, on request by the bargaining representative, approved the removal of the relevant employer's name by voting for the removal; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) there are no reasonable grounds for believing that the removal of the relevant employer's name has not been genuinely approved by the relevant employees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: A person must not coerce another person to exercise a workplace right in a particular way (see section 343).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2C) Without limiting subparagraph (2B)(b)(iii), the bargaining representative may request that the relevant employees vote by ballot or by an electronic method.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2D) For the purposes of subparagraph (2B)(b)(iii), the relevant employees are taken to have approved the removal of the employer's name if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) at least 50% of the relevant employees cast a vote; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) more than 50% of the valid votes were votes approving the removal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(54) Schedule 1, item 638, page 226 (line 21), omit "added.", substitute "added; and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(55) Schedule 1, item 638, page 226 (after line 21), at the end of paragraph 251(4)(b), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) if the requirements of subsection 249(3) would continue to be met if the new employer's name were added—the operations and business activities of the new employer are reasonably comparable with those of the employers specified in the authorisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4A) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the application for approval of the variation was made by a bargaining representative under paragraph (3)(b) of this section; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the new employer employed 50 employees or more at the time that the application was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the requirements of subsection 249(2) do not apply to the new employer;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">then the following matters are presumed, unless the contrary is proved:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) that the requirements of subsection 249(3) would continue to be met if the new employer's name were added;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) that, for the purposes of subparagraph (4)(b)(v) of this section, the operations and business activities of the new employer are reasonably comparable with those of the other employers that are specified in the authorisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(56) Schedule 1, item 638, page 226 (line 25), omit paragraph 251(5)(a), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the new employer employed at least 20 employees at the time that the application for the variation was made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(57) Schedule 1, item 638, page 227 (after line 1), after subsection 251(5), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5A) For the purposes of calculating the number of employees referred to in subparagraph (2B)(b)(i) or paragraph (4A)(b) or (5)(a):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) <inline font-style="italic">employee</inline> has its ordinary meaning; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) subject to paragraph (c), all employees employed by the new employer at the time that the application for the variation was made are to be counted; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a casual employee is not to be counted unless, at that time, the employee is a regular casual employee of the new employer; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) associated entities of the new employer are taken to be one entity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(58) Schedule 1, item 638, page 227 (line 31), omit "6 months", substitute "9 months".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(59) Schedule 1, item 651B, page 238 (lines 11 to 14), omit paragraph 23B(1)(a), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the work is done, onsite, by an employee in the industry of:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) general building and construction within the meaning of paragraph 4.3(a) of the Building and Construction General On-site Award 2020 as in force at the applicable time; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) civil construction within the meaning of paragraph 4.3(b) of the Building and Construction General On-site Award 2020 as in force at the applicable time; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(60) Schedule 1, item 651B, page 238 (lines 16 to 19), omit subparagraph 23B(1)(b)(i).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(61) Schedule 1, item 651B, page 239 (line 27), at the end of paragraph 23B(1)(b), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; (xiii) work in the asphalt industry within the meaning of clause 4.2 of the Asphalt Industry Award 2020 as in force at the applicable time;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(xiv) work, in that part of the industry of civil construction described in subparagraph 4.3(b)(i) of the Building and Construction General On-site Award 2020 as in force at the applicable time, that is the construction, repair, maintenance or demolition of power houses or other structures that use eligible renewable energy sources (within the meaning of section 17 of the <inline font-style="italic">Renewable Energy (Electricity) Act 2000</inline>) to generate electricity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(62) Schedule 1, item 660, page 256 (line 7), omit "and 4", substitute ", 4 and 5".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(63) Schedule 1, item 667, page 266 (lines 12 to 15), to be opposed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(64) Schedule 1, item 667A, page 266 (lines 16 to 26), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">667A Paragraph 7(9)(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "firefighting duties made up a substantial portion", substitute "the relevant authority is satisfied that firefighting or related duties made up a not insubstantial portion".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(65) Schedule 1, item 667B, page 267 (line 1), omit "an employee who is covered by subparagraph (a)(i)", substitute "for an employee of the Australian Capital Territory specified in a declaration under subsection 5(15)—the employee".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(66) Schedule 1, page 267 (after line 7), after item 668, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">668A After subsection 7(9)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9A) If a declaration under subsection (9B) is in force, then when determining for the purposes of paragraph 7(9)(a) whether firefighting or related duties made up a not insubstantial portion of the duties of an employee of the Australian Capital Territory, being an employee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) covered by paragraph 5(11)(e) or (ea) as a result of being a volunteer member (however described) of a body referred to in either of those paragraphs; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) specified in a declaration under subsection 5(15);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the relevant authority must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) by writing, request the declared ACT firefighting advisory committee to give the relevant authority written advice in relation to the matter within a reasonable period specified in the request; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) have regard to any such advice provided within that period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9B) If the Chief Minister for the Australian Capital Territory so requests in writing, the Minister may, by legislative instrument, declare that a committee or other body (however described) that is established:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) by or under an ACT enactment; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) by a written instrument made by a Minister (including the Chief Minister) of the Australian Capital Territory;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">is the declared ACT firefighting advisory committee for the purposes of subsection (9A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9C) A reference in subsection (9) or (9A) to the duties of an employee includes, in relation to an employee of the Australian Capital Territory specified in a declaration under subsection 5(15), a reference to the activities to which that subsection applies that were engaged in by the employee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(67) Schedule 1, item 669, page 267 (lines 8 to 16), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">669 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Item 12 of the table in subsection 7(8) of the <inline font-style="italic">Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988</inline>, as amended by this Part, applies in relation to a decision made under that Act (including a decision on reconsideration or review under Part VI of that Act), after the commencement of this item, in relation to primary site oesophageal cancer sustained by an employee on or after 4 July 2011.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(68) Schedule 1, page 267 (after line 16), at the end of the Schedule, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 28 — Paid family and domestic violence leave</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Division 1 — Main amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">670 After paragraph 536(2)(c)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (d) comply with any requirements prescribed by the regulations in relation to the reporting of paid family and domestic violence leave.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">671 After subsection 536(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3A) A pay slip is not false or misleading merely because it complies with regulations made for the purposes of paragraph (2)(d).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Division 2 — Other amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">672 Subsection 539(2) (after table item 34)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">673 After paragraph 557(2)(p)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(paa) section 757BA (which deals with employer obligations in relation to pay slips relating to paid leave to which the person is entitled because of section 757B);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">674 Subsection 757B(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Extended paid family and domestic violence leave provisions</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The <inline font-style="italic">extended paid family and domestic violence leave provisions</inline> are the provisions of Subdivision CA of Division 7 of Part 2-2, and the related provisions identified in subsection (3) of this section, as they apply because of this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">675 Section 757BA</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">757BA Employer obligations in relation to pay slips</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If an employer gives a person a pay slip relating to paid leave to which the person is entitled because of section 757B, the employer:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) must not include on the pay slip any information prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of paragraph 536(2)(c); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) must comply with any requirements prescribed by regulations made for the purposes of paragraph 536(2)(d).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: This section is a civil remedy provision (see Part 4-1).</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just moving on, in terms of Senator Lambie's statement to the Senate, I want to preface every single question that is being asked—I will say it by myself, but I'm sure that Senator Lambie, Senator Tyrrell and Senator Roberts will agree. I just want to remind the chamber and, in particular, the minister that the official records of parliamentary debates, which include questions in the Committee of the Whole stage, are a vital source of information when it comes to statutory interpretation. As Senator Lambie has rightly pointed out, at 6.23 pm the government's amendments to the most significant piece of industrial legislation that this place has seen for decades were circulated. One might say the government was treating the Senate with contempt, but that would be for some to say. There is significant uncertainty about how this legislation could be interpreted. Yes, we will be here till 11 pm, because there are so many questions that need to be asked and answered properly for the purposes of statutory interpretation going forward, and we will resume again tomorrow, and it is open-ended, but, due to the significant uncertainty about how this legislation could be interpreted—which, again, one may say, appears to be by deliberate design—it is important that we as a Senate, on behalf of every employer and employee in Australia, get clear and concise answers to provide guidance to those interpreting the government's legislative intent.</para>
<para>In that regard, to be very clear on the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record, I will quote from section 1 5AB of the Acts Interpretation Act 1901 :</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Without limiting the generality of subsection (1), the material that may be considered in accordance with that subsection in the interpretation of a provision of an Act includes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…    …    …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) any explanatory memorandum relating to the Bill containing the provision, or any other relevant document, that was laid before, or furnished to the members of, either House of the Parliament by a Minister before the time when the provision was enacted;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the speech made to a House of the Parliament by a Minister on the occasion of the moving by that Minister of a motion that the Bill containing the provision be read a second time in that House;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) any document (whether or not a document to which a preceding paragraph applies) that is declared by the Act to be a relevant document for the purposes of this section; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) any relevant material in the Journals of the Senate, in the Votes and Proceedings of the House of Representatives or in any official record o f debates in the Parliament or either House of the Parliament.</para></quote>
<para>So I say to the Senate chamber that is the way in which I will be approaching each question that I ask.</para>
<para>The questions I ask are being asked on behalf of employers in Australia. This bill will pass the Senate—we know that. Senator Pocock has given the government the vote that it needs. But after the bill passes the Senate, it goes back to the House. It will pass through the House of Representatives. The people of Australia deserve to know that employers are able to properly interpret the legislation and, in particular, the hundreds of questions that are going to be asked in committee stage that, to date, the government and the department either have been unable to or have failed to provide answers to.</para>
<para>In that regard, before I turn to questions, in relation to the amendments that have been circulated by the minister on behalf of the government, can I ask: when were these amendments finalised—on what date and at what time?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The short answer to your question is that the amendments were finalised today. But, as I said in response to Senator Lambie, the amendments all relate to matters that have been in the public arena since at least the weekend, after the government negotiated an outcome with Senator David Pocock. For the benefit of the chamber I'm happy to give a short explanation of what these amendments are.</para>
<para>The government amendments in relation to bargaining include among the factors that the Fair Work Commission must take into account, in deciding which terms to include in a workplace determination, the significance to the employers and employees who will be covered by the workplace determination of any arrangements or benefits in a relevant enterprise agreement.</para>
<para>They authorise the Fair Work Commission to have regard to 'reasonably foreseeable employees', make determinations on views about whether certain working arrangements are reasonably foreseeable and amend an agreement with retrospective effect, if necessary, to address a concern that the agreement does not pass the better off overall test as part of the new reconsideration process.</para>
<para>The amendments provide that employers who employ fewer than 20 employees may not be added to a single-interest employer agreement or authorisation without their agreement.</para>
<para>They provide that the operations and business activities of common-interest employers must be reasonably comparable for the purposes of making or varying a single-interest authorisation or agreement.</para>
<para>They provide that for employers with 50 or more employees the onus is on the employer to establish that it is not a common-interest employer or that its operations and business activities are not reasonably comparable with the other employers.</para>
<para>They provide the Fair Work Commission with discretion to refuse an application by a bargaining representative of an employee to add a new employer to a single-interest employer agreement or authorisation, if the Fair Work Commission is satisfied that on the day it will approve the relevant application less than nine months have passed since the most recent nominal expiry date of an effectively bargained agreement that covered the employer and relevant employees.</para>
<para>They provide that the minister may make a declaration in relation to a particular industry, occupation or sector to facilitate entry into the supported bargaining stream.</para>
<para>They provide that work in the civil construction sector is to be considered general building and construction work, which would mean that work in that sector would not be subject to multi-enterprise bargaining.</para>
<para>They make clear that work in the asphalt industry is not considered to be general building and construction work.</para>
<para>They allow bargaining representatives to apply to the Fair Work Commission for an order permitting an employer to put a multi-enterprise agreement to a vote if satisfied that employee organisations' failure to provide their written agreement is unreasonable.</para>
<para>The amendments also provide for two things in relation to flexible work: firstly, they allow a pregnant employee to request a flexible working arrangement; and, secondly, they clarify the types of orders the Fair Work Commission may make when an employer has not adequately responded to a request for a flexible working arrangement.</para>
<para>In relation to family and domestic violence leave, the amendments insert a new part 28 into the bill, which would make technical amendments in relation to paid family and domestic violence leave to enable regulations to prescribe requirements for payslips in relation to reporting of paid family and domestic violence leave so that it could be recorded on an employee's payslip as, for example, ordinary hours or training.</para>
<para>In relation to the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act, the amendments omit the prescription of malignant mesothelioma from the bill so that the disease can instead be prescribed by regulations under the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act 1988.</para>
<para>They also amend subparagraph 7(9)(a) of the Safety, Rehabilitation and Compensation Act to specify that an employee is taken to have been employed as a firefighter if firefighting duties made up a not insubstantial portion of their duties.</para>
<para>Finally, they introduce the ability for the Australian Capital Territory to establish an ACT firefighting advisory committee to assist in the determination of whether firefighting or related duties have made up a not insubstantial portion of the duties for ACT volunteer firefighters covered by the SRC Act.</para>
<para>In short, the amendments the government has now sought leave to move all flow from the negotiation that the government undertook with Senator David Pocock. Each of those amendments has certainly been made public before, and anyone following this debate would be well aware of the terms of those amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">S</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>enator CASH (—) (): I note that, in relation to the explanation the minister has just given to the Senate, the minister has just read out the supplementary explanatory memorandum.</para>
<para>Minister, you said the amendments were finalised today. At what time were they finalised? Did you withhold circulation until the start of the committee stage of the debate? I would like the minister or his office—they're listening in—to provide us with an answer as to exactly what time the amendments were finalised. Do the government amendments reflect all the changes announced by Senator Pocock on Sunday 27 November 2022? I'm more than happy for Senator Pocock, should he wish, to answer this question, but I understand that the minister has circulated the amendments. When did Senator Pocock or his office first receive a copy of the draft amendments? Was Senator Pocock or his office asked to provide any feedback on the amendments? Did Senator Pocock or his office provide the feedback on the amendments? When did Senator Pocock or his office receive a final copy of the amendments? Prior to the amendments being circulated in the parliament, as Senator Lambie has stated, at 6.23 pm, did anybody outside the government see the amendments, including members of any union movement in Australia? And, of all the government amendments on sheet PV124, can the minister please identify which amendments were the result of the committee recommendations, which were the result of negotiations with the Australian Greens and which were the result of negotiations with Senator Pocock? I'm happy for you to go through them dot point by dot point, as you just have, and advise, in relation to the dot points you just read out from the supplementary explanatory memorandum, whether they were committee recommendations, Australian Greens recommendations or Senator Pocock's recommendations.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks Senator Cash. Even though I'm a very fast writer and a very good listener, I wasn't able to keep track of the mountain of questions Senator Cash just asked. But what I can tell you is that I'm advised that the amendments were finalised at about 4 pm this afternoon—so, not terribly long before the debate commenced. I'm also advised that Senator Pocock and/or his office have been consulted about the drafting of these amendments and I'm also advised that no parties external to government, whether unions or employer groups, were consulted on the draft amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>[inaudible] amendments that you read out as per pages 2 and 3 of the explanatory memorandum supplementary, can you indicate which ones were committee recommendations that the government adopted, which ones were as a result of discussions with Senator Pocock and which ones were as a result of discussions with the Australian Greens?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm advised—and, again, this has been in the public domain—that the amendment that says that employers who employ fewer than 20 employees must not be added to a single-interest employer agreement or authorisation without their agreement was a recommendation of the Senate inquiry. In fact, I think you were involved in the Senate inquiry, Senator Cash, so you'd be familiar with that. I understand that the amendment in relation to the statutory review was also a recommendation of the Senate inquiry. I don't think it's any secret that most of the amendments have resulted from negotiations with Senator David Pocock. And, again, I don't think it's any secret that amendments in relation to flexible work are a result of negotiations with the Greens.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to now turn to the second reading speech to the House given by Minister Burke. In his second reading speech the minister said that 'bargaining at the enterprise level delivers strong productivity benefits and is intended to remain the primary and preferred type of agreement making.' Can the minister therefore guarantee that the percentage of employees covered by an enterprise-level agreement will increase as a result of the bargaining changes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, as you've said, Minister Burke in the House debate pointed out that the government's strong preference is that individual employers and their workers and relevant unions reach agreements at the enterprise level. We know that that's fallen away under the system that the former government presided over, with the complete collapse of enterprise bargaining, and we think it is likely that the proportion of workplace arrangements governed by single-enterprise agreements would increase as a result of this legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for the response to the question. Based on the answer—that you do believe the number of enterprise-level agreements will increase as a result of the government's bargaining changes—does the government see this as a mark of success for the reforms?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think there would be a number of marks of success of these reforms, such as getting wages moving again, increasing job security, closing the gender pay gap and increasing the proportion of single-enterprise agreements. I don't know that there's necessarily one test of success for this legislation, but, overall, the objective of this legislation and the measures of success are in the name of the bill—secure jobs and better pay.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In looking at the legislation, can the minister take the Senate to those provisions which are intended to ensure that those businesses who have or wish to have an enterprise-level agreement in place won't be compelled to bargain for or otherwise be roped into a multi-employer agreement?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For starters, of course, for any business or enterprise that is governed by an existing enterprise agreement, obviously that persists. That business would not be, as you would put it, 'roped into' or forced into multi-employer bargaining. In addition, under the legislation, as amended, there is what has been called a nine-month grace period after the expiry of an existing enterprise agreement. It is always open to an individual employer to reach an agreement with their employees. As I've already said, it's the government's preference that that occurs. But we also recognise that there are individual businesses and groups of employees that, for one reason or another—such as simplicity—may choose to go down the multi-employer bargaining path. I can think of many small businesses that wouldn't necessarily have the HR to conduct negotiations or would prefer to not have to do that with their own employees and may choose to effectively sign up to a multi-employer bargain that is generated through negotiation by a peak industry body with unions and workers. But, as I say, pretty much every business has the option of reaching an agreement with their own employees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given that, as I said at the outset, the purpose of these questions is to get a very clear guide from the government in relation to what the bill does and doesn't do, thank you for the general answer. Can you now take me to the specific clauses in the bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There's no specific clause in the bill that says, in your words, 'An employer cannot be roped into a multi-employer bargain.' That's because there are many clauses within the bill that provide a range of options for employers and employees to strike a bargain, whether that be at the enterprise level or across multiple employers or multiple enterprises. Just because there isn't a sentence to the effect that you're talking about, it doesn't preclude the range of options that individual enterprises have for reaching agreements with their workforce.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. I now turn to item 636A of the bill, which basically states, at the end of section 250, that the Fair Work Commission may make a single-interest employer authorisation that does not specify particular employees if the Fair Work Commission is satisfied that:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the employers are bargaining in good faith for a proposed enterprise agreement that will cover the employers and the relevant employees, or substantially the same group of the relevant employees; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the employers and the relevant employees have a history of effectively bargaining in relation to one or more enterprise agreements that have covered the employers and the relevant employees, or substantially the same group of the relevant employees; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) on the day that the FWC will make the authorisation, less than 6 months—</para></quote>
<para>in this case, it's six months—</para>
<quote><para class="block">have passed since the most recent nominal expiry date of an agreement—</para></quote>
<para>that is, an agreement for which the parties have effectively bargained. Can the minister confirm what is meant by 'history of effectively bargaining'? I have been asked by multiple employers what the guidance is that's being given by the government in this regard?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Cash. Because we are a government that wants to make our workplace laws as simple as possible for employers, employees and unions, we have, helpfully, set out the answer to your question in the revised explanatory memorandum. It's on page 188, helpfully, under item 636A, being the item that you referred to. We've made it very easy for people to cross-reference against the item of legislation. I'm happy to read that into the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>:</para>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of new paragraph 250(3)(b),—</para></quote>
<para>which I understand is the one that you're talking about—</para>
<quote><para class="block">an employer is likely to have a history of effectively bargaining in relation to one or more enterprise agreements if one or more of those resulting enterprise agreements provided for terms and conditions that were more than a marginal improvement on those contained in the relevant award (i.e. they must do more than simply pass the BOOT). The requirement would operate so that only enterprise agreements that provide genuine benefits to both the employer/s and their relevant employees would be relevant to the FWC's decision to exercise its discretion not to make a single interest employer authorisation that would specify the employer and its relevant employees. This discretion would not need to be relied upon where the parties have agreed (in writing) to bargain for a single-enterprise agreement as these parties would be excluded under clause 249(1D)(b).</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for confirming that, because that's exactly what I had written in front of me. It now leads to my next line of questioning. Can the minister confirm what the government means by terms and conditions that are 'more than a marginal improvement on those contained in the relevant award'? A number of employers across Australia would like guidance—as I said, statutory interpretation—as to what the government means by 'marginal improvement'.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Cash. As a former industrial relations minister and, I think, a former industrial relations practitioner as a lawyer, you would be well aware that the Fair Work Act, as it stands currently, and which you presided over, does not specify every detail that the Fair Work Commission would need to take into account. That, of course, would be a matter for the Fair Work Commission to determine, just as many matters under the existing legislation which you were the minister for left matters to the discretion of the Fair Work Commission.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that answer, but I hate to tell you that tonight we're actually discussing your legislation, not something that I did or did not do when we were in government. You would recall that this is actually your legislation from the Rudd-Gillard years which you are now amending, because you've decided that it failed Australia and Australians.</para>
<para>I just want to confirm about the answer you've just given: what you've said to the employers of Australia is that the government, other than saying that the act itself does not specify each detail that the Fair Work Commission has to take into account, is actually unable to provide any further guidance. You have not bothered to provide an amendment to set out that guidance so that employers who are negotiating these agreements understand what is meant by 'marginal improvement'.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WA</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>TT (—) (): I have to pick you up on one thing there, Senator Cash. When I'm speaking tonight I'm not just speaking to the employers of Australia, I am speaking to the employers and the workers of Australia. Unlike your government, we recognise that there are two different groups involved in a workplace—that is, employers and workers. We think that both of them have interests which need to be met by our workplace relations legislation. But what I can say to the employers and workers of Australia, and the trade unions of Australia who also of course have an important role in our workplace relations system, is that we are leaving a number of matters in this legislation to the discretion of the Fair Work Commission, including the example that you've given, and that is nothing out of the ordinary for the industrial relations legislation of Australia or, in fact, for many other pieces of legislation considered and passed by this parliament.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You have confirmed that for the employers, the employees and the unions in Australia the matter is being left to the Fair Work Commission, and the government is not providing any further guidance to the Fair Work Commission, the employers, the employees or the employee representatives as to what the government means by marginal improvement, because, again, this document will be utilised by way of statutory interpretation.</para>
<para>Is the intention of the government for the Fair Work Commission to apply a global assessment when determining whether the terms in an enterprise agreement are more than a marginal improvement, given we don't appear to have any further guidance, on those terms set out in the relevant award—that is, consider all of the terms of the agreement as a whole, rather than a line by line assessment, which is the approach that the Fair Work Commission has taken when assessing compliance with the better off overall test?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What I'm advised is that it would be a global consideration, as to the entire agreement. But I'd also remind you that in the explanatory memorandum—the clause that I read out previously—there was some guidance provided to employers, to employees, to unions and, indeed, to the Fair Work Commission, that what the government means by more than a marginal improvement is more than simply pass the better off overall test.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think we've now made it even more confusing. What does the government mean by 'has simply more than passed the better off overall test'? Again, can you quantify it in terms of a percentage improvement?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, I can't, and that's because under the existing legislation no government has directed the Fair Work Commission as to what better off overall is. That is a matter that is left to the discretion of the Fair Work Commission. Your government and, indeed, former governments that've made provision for the better off overall test have ultimately left that to be a decision of the Fair Work Commission. No previous government has ever said better off overall means five per cent better, 10 per cent better, two per cent better, not one per cent worse. It has been left to the discretion of the commission and that's what we're doing here.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister guarantee that businesses who can demonstrate a history of bargaining with employees at the enterprise level and who wish to continue to do so will not be roped into multi-employer bargaining because of a rigid and impractical application of the 'history of effectively bargaining test' by the Fair Work Commission?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, I make the point that it is entirely open to an individual employer to reach an agreement with the relevant union and their workers at a single enterprise level. Part of the problem that we've seen, which the government is responding to, is that the bargaining system that we have inherited—as a new government—is so broken that it is either unworkable for employers and their workforce to reach a single enterprise bargain or for one reason or another, involving power imbalances and other factors, that just doesn't happen. It is always open to a single enterprise to reach agreement with their workforce. And, yes, both parties have to agree. That's what a bargain is. If you have an employer who is unreasonably refusing to bargain with their employees, then this legislation does provide other options. Similarly, if you have a group of employees who are unreasonably withholding their consent to bargain, then there are options for employers. That's the balanced system that we're putting in place.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If I could, I will just, then, go back to item 636A of the bill. As I said, it provides that the Fair Work Commission may make a single-interest employer authorisation that does not specify particular employees if Fair Work is satisfied that—and we've gone through section (b)—the employers and the relevant employees have a history of effectively bargaining. Can the minister guarantee that businesses—again, I need this for statutory interpretation purposes—who can demonstrate a history of bargaining with employees at the enterprise level and who wish to continue to do so will not be roped into multi-employer bargaining because of a rigid and impractical application of a history-of-effectively-bargaining test by the Fair Work Commission, given your comments that: 'The government does not specify each detail the Fair Work Commission needs to take into account'? This is the whole point.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not entirely sure what the question was there in the end, Senator Cash. All I can say is that I repeat my earlier comments that these are matters for the discretion of the Fair Work Commission.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will just go back to the answer that you gave to the previous question in relation to marginal improvement. You said that no government has ever set out a formula by which marginal improvement is measured. What is the metric or metrics you are going to use to measure improvement? What happens if someone enters into an agreement and there's only a marginal improvement but we actually don't know whether or not the employees are now better off because there's no metric other than the BOOT test against which we can actually test it? 'Marginal improvement', on that basis, means 'just slightly tipping over'.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>WATT (—) (): As I've said, Senator Cash, if an employer has a single-interest bargain that is still running and hasn't reached its nominal expiry date, then they can't be roped in. And, when it comes time to bargain again, where an employer can demonstrate, or is likely to have a history of, effective bargaining, then that's what these provisions would apply to. But, again, I feel very repetitive in saying that, just as the existing legislation does not give metrics as to what amounts to 'better off overall', because it respects the fact that the Fair Work Commission has some right to use its discretion to work out what 'better off overall' means, similarly, what we're doing here is leaving it to the commission to determine whether, in the circumstances of a particular agreement, looked at globally, there is more than a marginal improvement, and, as I say, that has to be more than simply 'exceed the better off overall test'.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The bad news for employers—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take your point of order; however, I understand Senator Cash has one more question in this line of questioning and then I will come to Senator Pocock. Given that we have many amendments to deal with in committee, what I'm seeking to do is to allow senators to go through a line of questioning on a particular issue and then move so that you get that opportunity to go through questions. At the moment, we're going through government amendments (1) to (68) on sheet PV124. Senator Cash, do you want to ask your question?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a series of questions. I literally have a fileful from employers in Australia.</para>
<para>The revised explanatory memorandum, at page 189, states that new subsection 250(3), which sets out when the Fair Work Commission may exercise its discretion to allow parties to continue to bargain for an enterprise-level agreement, 'would uphold and respect the ability of an employer to bargain with relevant employees in appropriate circumstances'. Can the minister confirm what is meant by 'appropriate circumstances' and can the minister please provide examples that can then be utilised when looking at this for statutory interpretation purposes.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Did you say page 189?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Page 189.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Would you mind repeating the part you were referring to?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've got here that revised EM, page 189, states that new subsection 250(3), which sets out when the Fair Work Commission may exercise its discretion to allow parties to continue to bargain for an enterprise-level agreement, 'would uphold and respect the ability of an employer to bargain with relevant employees in appropriate circumstances'. My question is: can the minister confirm what is meant by 'appropriate circumstances' and could you please provide some examples? If it may assist there, it commences at 1081, at the bottom of page 188: 'For the purposes of new paragraph 250(3)(b), an employer is likely to have a history of effectively bargaining et cetera'. My question is what are the 'appropriate circumstances'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, I don't know whether we might actually be working from slightly different versions of the revised explanatory memorandum, but the point that I think you're making relates to clause 1082, at least in the version that I'm looking at, which states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Overall, new subsection 250(3) would provide the FWC discretion to refuse an application for a single interest employer authorisation, even if the requirements in new subsection 249(1) are met, if the FWC is satisfied that the authorisation should not be made having regard to current bargaining. The subsection would uphold and respect the ability of an employer to bargain with relevant employees in appropriate circumstances.</para></quote>
<para>Again, what constitutes appropriate circumstances is a matter for the commission. That is entirely consistent with the approach that the existing legislation provides.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>BARBARA POCOCK () (): I have a couple of questions that pick up on the question of power and bargaining. Over recent months, the Select Committee on Work and Care has taken evidence from witnesses around Australia around the issues affecting their ability to put together their jobs with the care of others. An important issue has arisen repeatedly throughout these hearings—the right of workers to disconnect from work once they've worked their paid hours. Can the minister please clarify how the bill will address the issues of workers' ability to disconnect from work so that they can protect family time, give care to others and rest?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Pocock, and thank you for your work on this bill—in fact, in this area for your entire career, but particularly in relation to this bill. The government considers that employees should be able to stop work when they have finished their paid hours. It's probably something that all of us could do a better job of, especially those of us in public life. It is appropriate that employees are protected from the intrusion of work into their private lives beyond their contracted hours. This is increasingly important as more women and carers form part of the Australian workforce.</para>
<para>One way this issue can be dealt with is through the existing mechanism of enterprise agreements. A growing number of enterprise agreements are addressing this, including through clauses that enable employees to disconnect from digital technologies outside working hours, with employers not to contact employees outside working hours unless in exceptional circumstances or for wellbeing checks. For example, the recently negotiated Queensland state teachers enterprise agreement encourages employees to disconnect from digital technology and communications when their work is done and when they are on holidays except in exceptional circumstances. On the employer side, the education department in Queensland has committed to minimised digital communications with employees to ensure that they have an appropriate work-life balance.</para>
<para>It is also appropriate that award based employees have the chance to switch off from work after hours. The bill adds both job security and gender equality to the modern awards objectives and adds two new expert panels on pay equity and the care and community sector. These important changes will strengthen and clarify the Fair Work Commission's capacity to consider award matters to do with the work-life collision, including such things as the right to disconnect. It is appropriate in our changing world that the Fair Work Commission is required to consider gender equality and job security as essential parts of its role under the amended act.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBARA POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for that answer. That's a comfort, certainly, to know that these matters can be dealt with in awards as the changing technologies of work affect so many workers with caring responsibilities. My second question: we've similarly heard a great deal of evidence around Australia that many workers in industries like retail, hospitality and aged care need greater roster justice. They need predictable shifts, a say over shift changes and the chance to refuse extra hours or be paid appropriate penalty rates for working hours beyond contracted hours. How will this bill work to improve workers' rostering rights?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WA</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>TT (—) (): Thank you again, Senator Pocock. This is an issue that's very important to me on a personal level as well, because I've met many workers in my career both here in the parliament and previously as a lawyer for workers and for unions who have really experienced this form of job insecurity, and it makes it really hard for people not only to pay their bills but also to enjoy their family life and have other commitments as well. So these are really important issues.</para>
<para>Our workplace laws need to respond to the changing composition of our workforce, with more working carers at work and more women in all forms of employment. That's why we've introduced new objects in the act and in modern award objectives. The bill adds both job security and gender equality into the objects of the Fair Work Act, and the Fair Work Commission must take these into account when performing its functions or exercising powers. In addition, the objects of job security and gender equality are included in the modern awards objective. We will also strengthen the bargaining system so that employers and employees can negotiate mutually beneficial rostering arrangements and systems.</para>
<para>Security of working time and appropriate rostering are essential components of job security. Predictable working time and a say over rostering is very important to working carers, as your question suggests. And given that so many carers are women, this also makes it a gender equality question. The important changes made by the bill will strengthen and clarify the Fair Work Commission's capacity across all its functions, including in relation to modern awards, to address the work-life collision, including issues such as rostering, predictable shifts, employee agreement to and say over changes in rosters, and arrangements in relation to the minimum length of shifts and rates of pay for extra hours worked.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will come back to this section, but I now have some comments and questions in relation to the common-interest test. I understand that's section 243. I have been inundated with questions from employers all over the country in relation to the common-interest test. This is something they have asked me to address in detail so they can start to get a much better understanding of whether or not they could or could not be compelled to bargain when they do not wish to. So the first question I ask is this. The section 'common interests', which is used in various positions throughout part 21 of the act, lists three conditions for identifying a potential common interest:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(a) geographical location;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) regulatory regime;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the nature of the enterprises … and the terms and conditions of employment in those enterprises.</para></quote>
<para>Can you confirm that to satisfy the common interest test all three factors do not need to be satisfied?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>These are, of course, simply examples, so there is no requirement that any of these examples be met. They are put forward as examples for the commission to consider in exercising its discretion.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Unfortunately that answer is going to create great confusion tonight across Australia to employers who actually are listening in to this. This is the one section of questions that they are asking for answers to. You have said in your legislation three conditions for identifying a potential common interest: geographical location, the regulatory regime, and the nature of the enterprise and the terms and conditions of employment in those enterprises. You have now said, 'These are simply examples,' which now begs the question, given that is actually written in the legislation: what other examples are we now talking about for employers across Australia who, as I said, are listening in tonight?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cash. Again I make the point that the government is approaching this from the interests of employers, employees and unions, not just one group in this debate or in a workplace. It arises from the new clause as to whether common interest bargaining can occur and what constitutes a common interest employer. Section 249(3) says that the requirements of this subsection—which opens up common interest bargaining—are met if:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the employers have clearly identifiable common interests;</para></quote>
<para>Then subsection (3C) says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of paragraph (3)(b), matters that may be relevant to determining whether the employers have a common interest include the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) geographical location;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) regulatory regime;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the nature of the enterprises to which the agreement will relate, and the terms and conditions of employment in those enterprises.</para></quote>
<para>Again, this is a matter that is up to the commission to exercise its discretion in determining whether employers have clearly identifiable common interests. Guidance is provided to the commission via subsection (3A) as to what may be relevant in determining whether employers have a common interest.</para>
<para>You will have followed the public debate about this, and I've seen various opposition senators, including yourself, Senator Cash, put up nonsensical examples which are designed to scare employers and employees about the operation of this legislation. People are suggesting that a small corner shop might be roped in, to use your language, to some sort of a common interest bargain with Woolworths. Complete nonsense. I find it impossible to believe that any commission exercising its discretion would decide that Woolworths or Coles or Aldi or any of the big chains have common interests to a corner store that might employ two people. Similarly, I've heard wild claims made by members of the opposition that a large cafe somewhere outside Melbourne might be roped into a the same bargain as a small cafe in Cairns. Again, it's a matter for the discretion of the commission, but I find it impossible to believe that those sores of nonsensical, wild claims that have been made by members of the opposition, designed to scare people, would stand up on any fair reading of this subsection by the commission.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yet again, with every word you have just said it's just got a whole lot worse for the employers in Australia, because they had questions about geographical location, the regulatory regime and the nature of the enterprise, and the terms and conditions of employment. You have now actually stated for the record that there are a whole lot of other common interests that may or may not be taken into consideration which the Fair Work Commission themselves may or may not dream up that employers in Australia are not aware of. We are now moving, Senator Watt, into very dangerous territory.</para>
<para>It's not a small shop. It is someone with, when you move your amendment and it gets up, 21 employees or more. We are in the multi-employer single interest test. We're not in supported bargaining at this moment, so it is 21 or more. For the record, are you saying that you are formally ruling out whether a small shop of 21 or more—so we're right in—will not be compelled to bargain with a Woolworths-type store if they have the same geographical location or regulatory regime or nature of the enterprise. Are you ruling that in or out, because if you are ruling it in, we have a whole lot of other questions. If you are ruling it out, let's do it for the record now, and then we're going to work through the size of business that you are ruling out that will not be compelled to bargain with another business.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry to disappoint you, because I know that this will take the wind out of one of your other scare campaigns that you have been trying to run, but you would be aware that, in addition to the common interest point that was already provided by the draft bill, one of the amendments that will be moved, following the negotiations with Senator David Pocock, is, if you like, an additional test that would need to be satisfied. This test is that employers must be reasonably comparable to be covered by the same proposed agreements. And, again, in the supplementary explanatory memorandum, which has been tabled, it explains some of the new amendments that are being proposed. What we have said at paragraph 71 is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Employers of very different size, scope and scale might, depending on all the circumstances, be found to have clearly identifiable common interests for the purpose of bargaining together. This amendment would ensure that the FWC must also be satisfied that the operations and business activities of an employer are reasonably comparable with the other employers. It may be open to the Fair Work Commission to conclude that despite two employers of a similar size, scope and scale operating in the same industry, they are not 'reasonably comparable' once the full extent of their business activities and operations are considered.</para></quote>
<para>So, no, Senator Cash, the example that you've provided would almost certainly not pass the tests that are being provided for, both by the original amendment that was contained in the draft bill and by this new amendment, which will also require businesses to be reasonably comparable. So I'm sorry to disappoint.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let's have a look at what Minister Burke said on Monday 28 November 2022 in response to a question asked by Mr Fletcher. He was asked:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Last Thursday the minister told the House in question time that a small business—</para></quote>
<para>so one with 21 or above—</para>
<quote><para class="block">located in a shopping centre with a large supermarket would not be compelled to bargain together with that supermarket. Given the bill specifically mentions geographical location as establishing the common interest that means a business can be dragged into multi-employer bargaining …</para></quote>
<para>Minister Burke came back though with, 'The example given is wrong,' as you have now stated—that's good, because we've got to rule it out formally for the reason for statutory interpretation, so that's going to give a lot of relief to people when we formally rule out this. He says: 'The first reason is in terms of common interest.' He talks about the common interest—not comparability, but the common interest. So let's put comparability aside. He then says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">So, even if you got over the hurdle—and I don't know logically how you could get over the hurdle—on common interest, to claim that they're somehow reasonably comparable would just a beggar belief.</para></quote>
<para>So I'll go back to the common interest: are you now saying that they are ruled out of the common interest?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cash, I think that in quoting Minister Burke you've answered your own question. I didn't catch every single word of what he said there, but I think he said something along the lines that it defies belief or defies logic that it would pass the common interest test. So the answer is there in what you've quoted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In terms of the number of employees—because, again, this is very, very important—if we go to 'reasonably comparable' you have said with certainty that it's 21 and you're out, we are no longer reasonably comparable. What happens if we're at 50? Are we ruling in or are we ruling out in terms of this example? Where are you drawing the line? This is now of great use to employers around Australia, because they will be able to say to the Fair Work Commission, 'Minister Watt has ruled us formally out on behalf of the government.' So at 21 we're ruled out; that's good news for those with 21. At 25, 35 or 50, what are you formally ruling in and ruling out by way of numbers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Cash. I don't think that Senator Cash has accurately characterised what I've said. The bill is very clear, that employers who employ fewer than 20 employees may not be added to a single-interest employer agreement or authorisation without their agreement. If there are 20 or more employees then there are additional tests that need to be met for an employer to be added to a single-interest employer agreement. In short, they have to have clearly identifiable common interests with other employers. As I said, the factors that the commission can take into account in determining whether employers have a common interest include—include—geographical location, regulatory regime, the nature of the enterprises to which the agreement will relate and the terms and conditions of employment in those enterprises. In addition to that, for a business that employs over 20 employees, they also have to be demonstrated to be reasonably comparable to the other businesses. That is what is actually provided for by this bill, rather than however Senator Cash might try to characterise it.</para>
<para>In addition to all that, and as Senator Cash would be aware, the government has reached agreement with Senator David Pocock that we are making an additional amendment which provides that for employers with 50 or more employees, the onus is on the employer to establish that it is not a common-interest employer or that its operations and business activities are not reasonably comparable with the other employers. But for businesses employing fewer than 50, the onus is on employees to establish that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We were talking 21 and above; I understand the issue in relation to 20 and below. You can actually be compelled into the supported bargaining stream. We have a whole line of questions there in relation to compelling small businesses, but we are focusing on the single-interest test.</para>
<para>Can we then go back to geographical location? Putting aside comparability, we have to satisfy the common interest first. In questions to the department, we have got no further in relation to any guidance on what 'geographical location' actually means. So before we go through a set of specific questions, can you tell me what the government actually means by 'geographical location'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I suspect I'll be saying this a fair bit tonight, but that is obviously a matter for the discretion of the commission. I respect the commission enough to think that it's capable of determining what a common geographical location is for the purposes of this section. Essentially, what we're ruling out by saying this is are businesses which are on opposite sides of the coast forming part of the same agreement through this stream.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One of the issues that I'm having—and this is why we will continue to ask these questions, and I'm glad the answer is that it's up to the Fair Work Commission—is that the government keeps saying this bill is meant to make it simpler and easier for businesses to bargain.</para>
<para>I am actually asking you questions on behalf of employers in this country. I didn't dream these up; employers in Australia did. To date every single answer that they are being provided with—because they're listening in—is: 'The government's not making it easier. There's nothing further for you to read. Go through all of these questions. There's nothing further for you to read.' I can read from the explanatory memorandum, but that's actually where all of the questions are coming from. I can look to Minister Burke, who insults the opposition in question time. That actually doesn't help me because you won't formally rule something in or rule something out. You keep saying you're making it simpler for business, but what we are now working through—and we've only been here for an hour and a half, so we've got a long way to go—is: 'It is being left to the discretion of the Fair Work Commission.'</para>
<para>Regarding geographical location, we will get onto what you've said. We're going to rule out coast to coast because that's going to help me in Western Australia—ruling out that anyone in the Western Australian mining industry is going to be compelled to bargain with anyone on, you've said, the east coast. I'll get your definition of the east coast, because that is also going to be very important going forward by way of statutory interpretation.</para>
<para>Going back to geographical location, it is being left to the discretion of the Fair Work Commission. I've got a whole series of questions provided by the Western Australian mining industry. Does this legislation set a distance limit when considering a shared geographical location as a common interest? We've ruled out coast to coast, so I also need to understand how you ruled out coast to coast by way of geographical location. I need to understand why, because then we can actually start to work backwards. We've now got a distance—coast to coast.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The answer to your question is no. The legislation clearly doesn't set geographical limits. That's obvious from reading the legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The legislation itself may not, but, as you know, we're talking statutory interpretation tonight. I'm asking very deliberate questions to get very deliberate answers. You're on the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record as ruling out coast to coast. What does coast to coast mean? I've got some in the mining and resources sector that are relying on these answers in the event they need to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can't add anything to what I've already said.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In terms of being compelled to bargain, how many employees does a business require before it could be compelled to bargain with a large business?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Depending on exactly what you're trying to establish, Senator Cash, there obviously is the provision in the bill that exempts businesses with under 20 employees from being, in your words, compelled to be part of a single-interest bargain.</para>
<para>There are a lot of employers that are quite happy to do this, is the other point worth observing, and there are a lot of employees who are quite happy to do this. There are a lot of people who don't need to be compelled to do anything, because they choose to undertake bargaining with their employees. Probably the simplest answer is to just refer you back to the thresholds that I've already discussed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to be clear, I've already ruled out talking about supported bargaining, so let's put anyone under, at the moment I would say, 16. But I understand the amendment will go through, so I am giving you the benefit of that doubt before a vote has been cast, and saying 21.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The </inline> <inline font-style="italic">Senate </inline> <inline font-style="italic">transcript was published up to </inline> <inline font-style="italic">20:00</inline> <inline font-style="italic">. The remainder of the transcript will be published progressively as it is completed.</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>