﻿
<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2022-11-28</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Monday, 28 November 2022</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 10:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Line" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Line"> </span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economics Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2022-2023, Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
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            <p>
              <a href="r6934" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6935" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2022-2023</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6936" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2022-2023 and Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023. The opposition will support the passage of these bills to ensure the continued functioning of government and so Australians can continue to benefit from the essential services that the Commonwealth provides. However, the opposition is deeply concerned with the government's first budget. In short, it was a missed opportunity. It left Australians short-changed. In a cost-of-living crisis, the government couldn't find a single policy—not one—that would deliver immediate support to Australians doing it tough. In fact, by Christmas, the average Australian family will be at least $2,000 worse off under this Labor government.</para>
<para>Before the election, Anthony Albanese was clear with the Australian people. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I'll say this very clearly. They—</para></quote>
<para>Australians—</para>
<quote><para class="block">will be better off under a Labor government than they will be under a Morrison government …</para></quote>
<para>This budget, with the names of the Treasurer and the Minister for Finance on the front in blue and white, proves that that was a lie. Before the election, the Prime Minister said of the Labor Party's plan:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It will see electricity prices fall from the current level by $275 for households—</para></quote>
<para>by 2025. That promise was made 97 times. But this budget proves that that lie was a strong lie by Mr Albanese. Instead we can see in this budget that electricity and gas prices will skyrocket over the coming two years—retail electricity prices by over 50 per cent and retail gas prices by 40 per cent.</para>
<para>Perhaps most relevant this week, as the government is forcing its job-destroying, anti-small-business industrial relations reforms through the parliament, this budget confirms that, under the government's policy settings—including its IR legislation—and Labor's forecast, real wages will fall over the coming years. Put simply, this government demonstrates that you cannot trust anything that Labor says. They are a party of broken promises, and we should not be surprised. A leopard cannot change its spots and Labor will always cost you more.</para>
<para>As the Treasurer said, this is a standard bread-and-butter Labor budget, but Labor's bread and butter are higher taxes and higher spending and it is evident here. Under Labor, the tax paid by Australians will increase by $142 billion over the forward estimates. There will be a new $555 million tax on retiree investors. The tax-to-GDP cap of 23.9 per cent, which the former coalition government put in place to ensure Australians were not hit by the invisible thief—bracket creep—goes out the window. And Labor has exceeded its pre-election spendathon. Instead of spending an additional $18 billion on new policies, not one which will provide immediate cost-of-living relief to Australians, Labor actually has hit $23 billion—again, higher taxes, higher spending and that is all that Labor knows. This is a $23 billion spendathon that will push up inflation, forcing the Reserve Bank governor to use the only tool available to him—that is, to increase interest rates.</para>
<para>This government's reckless spending is forcing the RBA to ratchet up interest rates, and mortgagees are feeling it. Rate rises every month since this government has come to power, with each one making it harder for Australians to pay their mortgage, buy groceries, pay their bills, all thanks to this Labor government. The opposition acknowledges that the October budget includes some measures that we will support and, indeed, have already supported through this parliament: assistance to victims of devastating floods; reducing the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme co-payment to lower the cost of medicines. There are others outlined in the opposition leader's budget address-in-reply delivered in the other place. However, when taken as a whole, this budget fails a test; indeed, it even fails Labor's own test set by them. This budget breaks many of the promises the government made before the election. It lets Australia down. Australians were promised cost-of-living relief but, just in time for Christmas, they see this government has no plan to help them.</para>
<para>The opposition will support the appropriation bills but we remain committed to holding the government to account over the promises it made to the Australian people. Australians expect it; Australians deserve it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the Albanese Labor government's first budget there was over $40 billion in fossil fuel subsidies, over $1.9 billion for the toxic petrochemical plant as part of the Middle Arm precinct and $2 million for new gas. Labor are showing Australians their love for dirty fossil fuel projects and, in fact, they're no different from the coalition. It is far from being sustainable when the so-called Middle Arm Sustainable Precinct in the middle of Darwin Harbour is planned to be a gas-fed petrochemical hub that poses serious environmental and health risks to those in the surrounding area. The industries this government has slated for this development at Middle Arm include: petrochemicals, processing, critical minerals processing, and carbon capture and storage, which we all know is a bit of a myth. Don't let the name of this precinct fool you; it is in fact a fossil fuel project.</para>
<para>The Petroni report estimates that the industrial hub itself could increase the Northern Territory's emissions by 75 per cent. But worse, it will increase the demand for some of the most polluting fossil fuel projects in Australia. Fracking in the Beetaloo and drilling the offshore Barossa gas field, this dirty gas is required to drive the petrochemical development, and these onshore and offshore projects in these fields will be exploited, with gas running through those pipelines direct into Middle Arm.</para>
<para>Exploiting the Beetaloo basin alone could increase Australia's total emissions by 20 per cent, at a time when we need to be transitioning to net zero. Comparable petrochemical precincts in the US, such as the one in Louisiana, have been dubbed 'cancer alley'; that is what they are called. Modelling shows that Middle Arm could increase industrial air pollution by over 500 per cent in both Darwin and Palmerston, resulting in $75 million of additional health impacts—direct links, no different, not separating them. This project is only three kilometres from Palmerston, where locals will be inhaling toxins produced at Middle Arm. This project could increase industrial cancer hazards in Darwin and Palmerston fourfold. We see an 800 per cent increase in carbon monoxide being released into the Greater Darwin region, and significant increases in releases of other harmful chemicals that have been linked to heart disease, respiratory conditions and in fact strokes.</para>
<para>Middle arm, just like many other projects that this government is throwing money at, is a dirty, fossil fuel project that does not deserve the Australian public's money. When many Australians are struggling to pay their rent and their mortgages, to put food on the table and fuel in their car, this government is now handing out public funds to foreign owned companies who will destroy our natural environment and wreck our climate. When many Australians can't afford to access health care, this government is lining the pockets of billionaires who are in fact making us sicker and in need of that health care. So while the government loves to give money to billionaires, much of that investment in Australian fossil fuel projects comes from overseas investors such as Japan and South Korea. The resources minister, from the other place, was in Japan recently, assuring foreign companies that their investments in Australia's fossil fuel is warmly welcomed here in Australia.</para>
<para>Middle Arm precinct is one of those 114 fossil fuel projects currently in the pipeline for expansion. Public money for Middle Arm amplifies the public money for the Beetaloo and Barossa basins to be fracked and those gas fields opened up. These projects all depend on each other. They are all, in fact, making and achieving net zero a fantasy in this country. Both the federal and the Territory governments have committed large amounts of public money to Middle Arm already. Of the money that has already been spent it has gone directly into the pockets of these fossil fuel companies, like Santos. Santos received $100 million in the previous federal government's budget for carbon capture and storage. I'm not even going to get into that yarn, because we don't have time today. But the previous federal government announced the $1.5 billion for this precinct in April.</para>
<para>The current resources minister couldn't wait to get into a helicopter, sponsored by Santos, and head up there in the first few weeks to support this funding continuing. This is what we hear from locals. She didn't even have the decency to contact her Labor colleagues from this jurisdiction to let them know she was flying in on this wonderful helicopter. The Minister for Infrastructure, Transport and Regional Development, Minister King, said on 25 October that while the funding commitment to the Middle Arm industrial area was previously committed by the coalition, Labor would be funding it—not as a potential defence project but rather to get hydrogen and other goods in. It's a very vague comment from the minister. So it may be for hydrogen—maybe, potentially, possibly—for all those scenarios that she's floated. It's one of the things that's been talked about only as a possibility.</para>
<para>What she wasn't talking about is the fossil fuels that this project will actually support and use. The Labor government want an equity fund for this project, and they want the Commonwealth to have a stake in it. The Northern Territory government claims to be developing a 'globally competitive sustainable development zone for low-emission petrochemicals, renewable hydrogen, carbon capture and storage and mineral processing'. All that language is greenwashing—all of it. I don't even know how you get low-emission petrochemicals; I just outlined the health impacts for people living in Darwin and Palmerston, less than three kilometres away.</para>
<para>This government today has a very important decision to make: do they continue to throw billions of dollars at projects that wreck the climate, destroy the natural environment and cultural heritage of this precinct and, ultimately, make Australians who live in the direct area sick? Or do they commit with the same intensity to use public funds to transition this country to a cleaner future with renewable energy? Australians are demanding a green future. They in fact are sick and tired of governments using greenwash language and continuing to use the Australian public's money to prop up a dying industry in this country.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to thank everybody who has contributed to the debate on Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2022-2023 and the Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2022-23. The bills seek authority from the parliament for appropriations from the Consolidated Revenue Fund for endorsed March 2022 budget measures, 2022 election commitments and other decisions taken by the government in the October 2022 budget. They build on the appropriations already provided in the first set of the 2022-2023 supply act containing broadly five-twelfths of the 2022-23 annual appropriations to support the ongoing business of government, and the additional 2022-23 supply bills containing the remaining seven-twelfths of the 2022-23 annual appropriations for the ongoing business of government.</para>
<para>In introducing these bills, the government has already highlighted some of the more significant measures provided for in these bills. The total of the appropriations sought through these three bills is approximately $13.6 billion. These are the principal bills that underpin the 2022-23 October budget. It is, indeed, the first Labor budget in nearly a decade. It is a budget that builds a better future and a budget that I and all who sit on this side of the chamber are extremely proud of. It is a responsible budget that delivers on the Albanese government's election commitments, delivering targeted cost-of-living relief and investing in Australia's future. I understand that there is an amendment to come. We will deal with that amendment in due course.</para>
<para>There are very good reasons for this party of government and other parties to support a consistent approach to supply bills. I know one previous senator here was, for a period, fond of moving amendments to these bills to make political points and partisan speeches. Of course, people have got a right to do that. There is an important set of principles here, though. Speeches and posts for Facebook are one thing. Actually making sure that supply bills make their way through here in a way that's consistent with institutional arrangements is pretty important for the proper functioning of government. So we'll go through those debates when the time comes. I commend the appropriation bills to the Senate, and I look forward to the Senate's support.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>3</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move Greens amendment (1) on sheet 1770:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Page 6 (after line 30), at the end of Part 2, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11A Middle Arm Sustainable Development Precinct in the Northern Territory</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No amount appropriated by this Act is to be spent on equity investment for the development of the Middle Arm Sustainable Development Precinct in the Northern Territory, including common use marine infrastructure and regional logistic hubs, as described on page 163 of Budget Paper No. 2 2022-23, which was tabled in both Houses of the Parliament on 25 October 2022.</para></quote>
<para>This was a very clear opportunity for this government to do the right thing by Australians. As I said in my speech, this is their first budget—six months into their first term, after being in opposition for nearly a decade, listening to the coalition hand out money left, right and centre to their mates and to big business and fossil fuel companies to shore up their donations for every election, to make sure that that continued. The Australian public thought that at this last election they had an opportunity to put a government in place that would look after them, that would see public money going to public services for their benefit of Australians, not for public money to be propping up fossil fuel projects when the world is saying, 'Do not open up any more coal or gas projects.'</para>
<para>This government are deaf to that. They are continuing not to listen to the science, not to listen to the experts, not to listen to anybody and to continue the legacy of those opposite, who gave out all the money to start with. They just came into government in May, sailed in and continued that legacy, continued to give out the public's money to these fossil fuel companies and then take the language off their websites so no-one will question that—greenwash the language to continue the dirty fossil fuel industry that is continuing to thrive when their own cabinet minister says that the gluttony of greed it what's driving the gas prices in this country; that is what's happening.</para>
<para>So, we've got the good-cop bad-cop scenario happening over here at Labor. One cabinet minister says one thing and another says a different thing. They say, 'We want net zero.' Well, when? When are you going to transition this industry? When are you going to put renewable infrastructure in place? You have an opportunity to do that by not continuing to expand fossil fuel projects in this country, and Middle Arm is the prime example of that.</para>
<para>We have an opportunity today to vote for the Australian people, who want to see their money used in the right way. They want to hold Labor to account. That's what we're doing here on the crossbench: making sure that those folks watching out there understand the amount of money that is being provided in this equity fund to Santos and other companies who had record profits in the first quarter of this year, and government is still giving them our money.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition will not be supporting this amendment. This is typical of the Australian Greens. In a budget delivered by Labor that shows that gas prices and energy prices will rise, the Greens want to reduce the supply of gas. The Greens talked about doing the right things by Australians. Well, the right thing to do to stand by Australians is to make sure they have affordable electricity in 2023 going onwards. Stopping the development of gas supply in this country will mean that electricity and power prices will go up. The Middle Arm Sustainable Development Precinct is a resource-rich area that can deliver additional energy and minerals through a new gas reserve as well as critical mineral reserves, including copper and lithium, which are necessary to build the batteries that will assist in the supply of renewable energy. It will also have optimal carbon dioxide emissions opportunities. That is what the project is about. This is a project that was pushed by the former coalition government. It is an idea that was pushed by the ministers and by the CLP in the Northern Territory. It is something that will benefit all of Australia.</para>
<para>So, it is disappointing that the Greens are so detached from reality that they're attempting to torpedo a project that presents an opportunity to create jobs and will assist in securing Australia's energy supply into the future. We will not be supporting this amendment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will provide $1.9 billion in planned equity to support the development of the Middle Arm precinct. We will do that together with regional logistics hubs along key transport lists. This is not a subsidy for fossil fuels; this is serious commitment to industrial infrastructure in that region.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Now, the difference between us and the Greens political party on these questions is that what the government sets out to do is to reduce emissions, consistent with the targets that we've set—the targets that we took to the election, the targets that we have a mandate to introduce, the targets that were supported by the most sophisticated economic modelling done by an opposition party coming into government. Now, what we intend to do is, yes, to reduce emissions and, yes, to put downward pressure on the price of power, but the thing that's missing from the Greens party's position here—it's one of the key areas of difference—is, of course, that we intend to press on with the industrial diversification of the Australian economy. That means that more blue collared jobs in regional areas. That means more industrial diversification.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Cox, you can repechage when I give you the call.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That means more factories, more manufacturing. That means investing in the technologies and the industrial infrastructure that will mean we will have the capacity to export green hydrogen and have the capacity to feed into global supply chains.</para>
<para>You can't have it both ways. What we intend to do is to invest in this kind of infrastructure that supports that kind of industrial development. Now, I know some people don't like industrial development. They don't like factories. They don't like manufacturing. But this government is determined to press on with this, and on that basis, but also on the basis that I outlined in the summing up speech at the end of the second reading debate, I urge the Senate to reject the amendment.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Cox, do you want the call?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not even worth it.</para>
<para class="italic">T he CHAIR: Does any other honourable senator wish to make a contribution? I'm intending to put the question, so, if any honourable senator wishes to make a contribution, please do so now. As no honourable senator has indicated that they wish to make a contribution, I will put the question. The question before the committee is that Australian Greens amendment (1) standing in the name of Senator Cox on sheet 1770 be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [10:32]<br />(The Chair—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>13</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>24</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland—the people who make up our amazing Queensland community—and Australia, I speak to Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2022-2023 and Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2022-2023 and make these comments and ask a few questions. After six months in power, this government has earned a solid C for chaotic. Bills are being brought forward, then dropped, and then they're back. Amendments are flying around faster than Australian cash at a G20 meeting. Sitting hours seem to be nothing more than a mission statement. This is amateur hour.</para>
<para>Queenslanders have every right to ask: 'What good is it having a Labor prime minister and a Labor premier, in Annastacia Palaszczuk, when the Premier allows the Treasurer to take money from Queensland and use it to buy votes in Victoria? Now that Dan Andrews has been re-elected, can I ask the Treasurer for Queensland's money back, please? Can Queensland have the $5 billion funding back for Hells Gate Dam, the $500 million funding for Urannah Dam, the funding for Hughenden agricultural area and the $120 million for Emu Swamp Dam so that our wonderful farmers in Queensland can have the water they need to grow food and fibre, and feed and clothe the world? Seriously, what has this government got against farmers, against people wearing natural fabrics and eating good, natural, healthy, clean food? Really! That doesn't pass the pub test. When growing food to feed the hungry is a noble occupation, this government is treating farmers like a problem. Ideology based city-centric policy is the problem. Farmers are not the problem.</para>
<para>Hells Gate Dam will secure Townsville's water supply and ensure the growing precincts of Abbot Point and Moranbah will have the water they need to make all that beautiful steel to build the world over the next 30 years. Can Queensland have the $800 million back for the Rockhampton Ring Road? Land and equipment was purchased for this project, and people were buying houses to work in Rockhampton on this Ring Road project, and suddenly the rug got pulled out from under them.</para>
<para>Northern Queensland is a booming economic powerhouse. Constraining access to Rockhampton is both dangerous and hazardous. To put it simply, it's bloody-minded stupidity. Can Queensland please have the $800 million back for the Rockhampton Ring Road that was stolen and taken to sure up Dan Andrews election campaign? Minister, has this government done the sums on how much Queensland pays in taxes to the federal government, including in GST, and how much we're getting back? It does not seem to me like the people of Queensland are getting a fair go compared to other states, especially when Queensland is the lion's share of our national economy's number one export income earner—coal.</para>
<para>Bills agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills reported without amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>6</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the bills be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Crime Commission Amendment (Special Operations and Special Investigations) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>6</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6893" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Australian Crime Commission Amendment (Special Operations and Special Investigations) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>6</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on behalf of the opposition to support the second reading of the Australian Crime Commission Amendment (Special Operations and Special Investigations) Bill 2022. The bill amends the Australian Crime Commission Act 2002 to provide greater certainty regarding the powers of the board of the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, otherwise known as the ACIC, to authorise special ACIC operations and special ACIC investigations.</para>
<para>The ACC Act establishes the ACIC board to make determinations authorising the ACIC to undertake special ACIC operations or special ACIC investigations. However, the existing provisions in the act include key definitions which cross-refer to other definitions that are central to the process for making determinations. This layering of definitions adds unnecessary complexity to the process in making determinations. The bill addresses this issue by repealing the current definition of 'federally relevant criminal activity' in section 4(1) and replacing it with a new definition of 'federally relevant crime'. The current definition of 'relevant crime' in section 4(1) is also amended. These changes reduce the multilayered definitions that currently exist, which add unnecessary complexity. The bill also makes some minor consequential amendments to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Law Enforcement act 2010 and the Telecommunications (Interception and Access Act 1979.</para>
<para>The Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, which was formerly known as the Australian Crime Commission, performs, without a doubt, a vital function of our law enforcement agencies. State and commonwealth agency heads come together to form the board, which provides input and directions around special operations and special investigations. The Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission does excellent work in looking at some of the incredibly serious systemic criminal issues that occur here in Australia. It is also given extraordinary powers, and of course we should always be apprehensive and cautious that, when we give agencies particularly coercive powers, we are doing it for a very good reason. It has certainly been evidenced by the performance of the commission over a number of years now that these powers that they have are extremely important and do assist the commission in undertaking some of its special operations and investigations. These investigations have been, as we know, into some very significant areas within, for example, drug trafficking, issues with the migration system and issues with organised crime, to name but a few.</para>
<para>Without a doubt, the opposition want to support the Australian Crime Commission, now known as the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, which is what the bill before us does. What it does is to ensure that the proper legislative framework is in place for the commission to continue its activities. I have outlined the areas in which they undertake this work: drug trafficking, issues with the migration system and, in particular, issues around organised crime. They need to be properly equipped with the powers to tackle these issues. We need to ensure that particularly in 2022—and in fact we're looking forward to 2023—they have the proper legislative framework in place for them to continue the important work they do, with important oversight and restraint of power.</para>
<para>Coercive powers are very significant because in some cases they provide evidentiary discovery capacity well beyond what could actually be admissible in a trial—things like compelling the giving of evidence and not allowing for the right to silence. Some of those issues may or may not come up at another time in debate on another bill regarding corruption. These powers that are given to the ACIC inform the work that they do and allow them to stop the bad criminal activity that occurs in our nation. So, where it is justified and appropriate and, on top of that, we have the proper protections and safeguards in place, we accept the need for that and we are happy to support improving the legislative framework.</para>
<para>In particular—we're in 2022, looking forward to 2023—where new forms of criminal enterprise and activity may be identified, new technology provides an opportunity for criminal activity that was not envisaged within the original legislation. Due to that, we find ourselves in a situation where the proper powers are not necessarily now in place for entities like the ACIC to do the job that we so desperately need them to do. We as a parliament should always be responding to that and making those changes, and, of course, we need to be comfortable with them and we need to ensure they are reasonable and legitimate. In the case of this bill, the opposition believes that these changes are appropriate and that they do support the ACIC to do the work that they need to do in the modern world that we live in. On behalf of the opposition, I commend the ACIC on the work that they do. The opposition commends the bill to the chamber.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on behalf of the Greens to indicate that we won't be opposing the Australian Crime Commission Amendment (Special Operations and Special Investigations) Bill 2022. This is a bill to amend the Australian Crime Commission Act and to provide greater certainty, but really it is just procedural amendments and drafting amendments with respect to the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission board's powers to authorise special ACIC operations and special ACIC investigations.</para>
<para>Special ACIC operations and investigations are tools used by the ACIC to obtain information that the ACIC determines would not be able to be obtained without the use of those coercive powers. Those powers have primarily been used to collect, assess and then disseminate to state and territory policing and intelligence agencies intelligence and policing information about serious and organised crime—the intent being to have a kind of national picture of the threat to Australia from organised crime. We know, from a series of responses we've had from the ACIC in estimates and in the oversight committee, that, overwhelmingly, organised crime in this country is funded by illegal drugs. In the most recent oversight committee hearing with the ACIC, the ACIC estimated that the illegal drug market in the country is some $10.4 billion, which doesn't include the illegal cannabis market. They didn't really have a grip on the size of the illegal cannabis market. That $10.4 billion plus is often filtered through real estate agents, lawyers, poker machines and casinos and it is the primary source of illegal funds for organised crime in this country.</para>
<para>The ACIC has now, for a numb and er of years, been reporting on its success in disrupting the illegal drug market, primarily using the special operations and special investigations tools that are the subject of this bill. It's unfortunate to say that it hasn't been successful. I think in the last two years the ACIC's intelligence was—in part, at least—responsible for the seizure of approximately $1.4 billion worth of illegal drugs in each year. That's the street value. Of course, by the end of each year, that had made absolutely no difference to the availability or price of illegal drugs in the country. That is because of the obscene profits that are made by organised crime through the sale of illegal drugs in this country. In the evidence that they gave to the committee just last week, the ACIC's estimation was that cocaine, for example, in South America costs about $1,000 a kilo, but the sale price here when organised crime lands cocaine and sells it in Australia is somewhere between $180,000 and $250,000 a kilo. With that kind of mark-up, if organised crime loses 10 per cent of the cocaine and other drugs that they bring into the country, it's not even noticeable in terms of their end-of-year profits.</para>
<para>For all of the work that the ACIC does, for all of the integration that they do with state and territory police and for all of these coercive powers, when it comes to the primary industry they're seeking to disrupt, they have proven incapable, and they will continue to prove incapable given that gap between the cost of these drugs and precursor chemicals on the black market internationally and the price that's obtained by organised crime selling them in the country. The model that we have now and the war on drugs are fundamentally not working, and the ACIC's results, notwithstanding substantial effort and investment, are proof that the war on drugs is not working in this country.</para>
<para>When it comes to the specific provisions of this bill, we have separately satisfied ourselves that it makes no harmful changes to the oversight of special operations and special investigations. It would be fair to say, though, we haven't been assisted by the information provided in the second reading speech on behalf of the government or in the explanatory memorandum. To quote from the explanatory memorandum:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill makes clearer the process for the Board to make and frame determinations to undertake a special ACIC operation or special ACIC investigation. It does this by reducing the multi-layered definitions that exist in the ACC Act, simplifying the determination drafting process and making the determinations easier to understand. The amendments ensure that the Board can continue to make the necessary determinations to authorise special ACIC operations and special ACIC investigations to occur .</para></quote>
<para>That sheds more darkness than light on what the bill does. Unfortunately, that is the nature of the explanatory memorandum and the contributions we've gotten from the government behind this bill. But, as I've said, we have separately satisfied ourselves that it does no harm. It does appear to provide some marginal streamlining and clarity for how these special investigations and operations are authorised. To the extent that there's greater clarity about how these coercive powers are authorised, we hope that will provide for greater opportunities for the law to be followed in the letter and the spirit, and for those reasons we don't oppose the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to thank colleagues for their contributions to the debate on the bill. The measures in the bill are certainly technical in nature. They enhance confidence, certainty and trust in the authorisation process for the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission's work and the board's capacity to determine special crime intelligence commission operations and special investigations. The measures are essential to ensuring that the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission is able to fulfil its statutory functions as Australia's national criminal intelligence agency without interruption. The bill will support its capacity to continue to effectively target and disrupt the illicit activities of transnational serious and organised crime groups and to appropriately and lawfully take the fight to serious and organised crime in Australia. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>8</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As no amendments to the bill have been circulated, I shall call the minister to move the third reading unless any senator requires that the bill be considered in Committee of the Whole.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>8</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6940" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>8</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in favour of the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022, but also to make a number of points with respect to how the opposition believes the bill can actually be enhanced. I sat on the inquiry into this legislation as deputy chair of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, and there were a number of concerns that were identified during the course of considering this legislation. I note that Senator Shoebridge also attended and was part of those hearings, so he will also be familiar with some of these issues.</para>
<para>This bill proposes a substantial increase in the penalties that will be applicable to bodies corporate that engage in what is referred to as a serious or repeated interference with privacy obligations. The first point to note is that the bill is lacking a clear description of what 'serious' or 'repeated' means in this context. If we are applying a $50 million penalty on a body corporate, or in fact a penalty that could be upwards of 30 per cent—30 per cent!—of a body corporate's turnover, in the context of a serious or repeated interference with privacy then we need to clearly define what serious or repeated means. That should be clearly defined on the face of the bill. So there is a lack in that respect, because there is a lack of that definition as to what serious or repeated is. Is repeated twice? Is it three times or four times? What is 'serious' in this context? Those who are going to be impacted by these laws and have obligations to discharge under this legislation need to be given a clear and concise definition of what 'serious' or 'repeated' mean in this context.</para>
<para>The second point I wanted to raise in relation to the penalty clause is that was prepared on the presumption that there's an actual benefit which is received by the body corporate that has breached its obligations in this regard. We all know that there are a number of scenarios in relation to which these privacy obligations can be breached. The first scenario is where a big corporate player actually intentionally and wilfully breaches our right to privacy—the right of the people whose information is kept by these large corporations. So we can have a wilful breach, where a body corporate is exploiting that information for its own commercial benefit. In that case there's an actual benefit which is yielded from the breach. In the second case we can have a passive actor, where a body corporate is hacked—and we've seen that recently—and the issue for the body corporate is that it had insufficient safeguards with respect to protecting the data which it keeps.</para>
<para>Those are completely different situations. The first situation is where a body corporate has intentionally exploited private data for a commercial use and has obtained some benefit. The second scenario is where a body corporate has actually been hacked itself. That's where the criminal or the malicious intent to interfere with people's rights of privacy is held by an outside actor. Those are different situations. The problem with this bill, as it stands, is that there's no distinction that those are different situations. The first point I'd like to make in that regard is that the structure of the clause itself assumes that there's a benefit. Clause 13G(3)(b) it refers to 'the' benefit, it doesn't refer to 'any' benefit. So it's assuming that the company has actually received a benefit from the serious or repeated interference with privacy obligations. That's not always the case, we know that. So that needs to be clear.</para>
<para>It should also be recognised that this penalty provision would apply to the largest of multinational corporations, which should be able to put in place the best and most robust safeguards to prevent hacking, but would also apply to, say, a medium-sized businesses or a charity which gets hacked by a malicious actor and which doesn't necessarily have the same resources as the multinational company. The same penalty provision applies. There's a major issue with respect to a regime that imposes the same type of penalty in relation to the largest of multinationals, which should have sophisticated cyberdefences in place, as opposed to medium-sized enterprises or even charities that get hacked by a malicious actor—in many cases, a foreign actor. There's no distinction on the face of this penalty clause to those different circumstances, and that's a major failing in this penalty clause. This issue was raised by the Law Council of Australia and by all sorts of associations representing civic society with expertise in this. So the government should address this obvious issue on the face of this legislation. The government really should address this issue.</para>
<para>Thirdly, the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner should—especially given the nature of the penalties, which increase under this legislation—issue clear guidance material addressing the application of penalties and also provide guidance with respect to those medium-sized enterprises and charitable organisations et cetera as to what best practice means. That's so people who are operating in this space actually know what they need to do in order to discharge their obligations.</para>
<para>The last point—and this point became clear through the course of the committee looking at the legislation—is we need to make sure that the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner and the Australian Cyber Security Centre are adequately resourced and staffed to carry out their important obligations. There's a mountain of work on this front and it gets more and more complicated each day. The number of malicious cyberattacks are increasing, so we need to make sure that the resourcing and staffing levels at the Office of the Information Commissioner and the Australian Cyber Security Centre are fit for purpose and resourced to the extent that they can actually discharge the obligations which are imposed upon them.</para>
<para>Having outlined those points of concern, we do support the legislation. But we believe there are a number of issues, which I've outlined in the course of my remarks, where the legislation can be enhanced and improved.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on behalf of the Greens to indicate that we will be supporting, with reservations, the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022. I acknowledge the contribution of Senator Scarr, who sat with me on the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee when we reviewed this bill. I also acknowledge many of the observations that Senator Scarr has made about the inadequacies of the bill and the adequacies of its fit in the overall privacy protection regime.</para>
<para>This bill amends the Privacy Act 1988 and the Australian Information Commissioner Act, as well as the Australian Communications and Media Authority Act, to increase penalties under the Privacy Act. It provides the Australian Information Commissioner with greater enforcement powers, and it provides the information commissioner and the Australian Communications and Media Authority with greater information-sharing powers. One of the concerns we heard from multiple stakeholders was that we're passing a bill that is meant to be about keeping our data safer and increasing protections for our data, but at the core of it are provisions that make it easier for our data to be shared amongst government agencies. That's an irony at the centre of the bill that many stakeholders pointed out and that I haven't yet heard the government address. I want to be clear that we do have concerns about that.</para>
<para>The headline for this bill is that it increases the penalty under section 13G of the Privacy Act for serious or repeated interference with privacy from the current penalty of about $2½ million to a maximum penalty that will not exceed the greater of $50 million or three times the value of any benefit that's obtained by a corporation or, if a court can't determine the value of the benefit, up to 30 per cent their adjusted turnover in the financial year.</para>
<para>The bill provides the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner with additional enforcement powers, modest though they are, that include expanding the types of declarations that the commissioner can make in a determination after an investigation is done and amending the extraterritorial jurisdiction of the Privacy Act to ensure foreign organisations that carry on a business in Australia must meet the obligations under the act, even if they do not collect or hold Australians' information directly from a source in Australia. We know, for example, that Meta is in the High Court at the moment, challenging the existing provisions based upon the law's current requirement to have a direct connection between whoever breached the privacy rules and the obtaining of the data from Australia. The High Court challenge has pointed out a flaw in the law, which this bill seeks to remedy. We wholeheartedly support that element of the bill.</para>
<para>The bill also provides the commissioner with new powers to conduct assessments, subject to having the resources, and provides the commissioner with new infringement notice powers to penalise entities for failing to provide information in the course of an investigation—so not in relation to a privacy breach but in the course of an investigation—without having to go to court. It also strengthens the notifiable data breaches scheme to provide the commissioner with more knowledge of the information contained in an eligible data breach.</para>
<para>In relation to enhanced information-sharing powers, the bill gives the commissioner increased ability to share information by clarifying that the commissioner is able to share information gathered through the commissioner's information-commissioner functions, freedom of information functions and privacy functions. It also provides the commissioner with the power to disclose information or documents with an enforcement body, an alternative complaint body or a state, territory or foreign privacy regulator for the purpose of the commissioner exercising their powers, or performing their functions. It provides the commissioner with the power to publish a determination or information relating to an assessment on the commissioner's website and to disclose certain information acquired in the course of exercising their powers if it's in the public interest. It also provides some other, more technical, amendments to the ACMA Act.</para>
<para>As Senator Scarr noted, there was significant concern amongst stakeholders and witnesses regarding the structure of this new proposed penalty regime. While there was near-universal support for having a substantially increased penalty—an increase in the scale of $50 million for most serious and repeated breaches—the lack of any tiered penalty regime and the manner of the drafting of the amendments to section 13G of the Privacy Act expose significant weaknesses in the government's proposed model.</para>
<para>The proposed model seeks to link the maximum penalty for breaches to some benefit received through the privacy breach. That was modelled on competition laws. There is some common sense in linking maximum penalties to the benefit received when the offence is a question about breaching competition laws. The manipulation of markets, or other anticompetitive practices, can often see extraordinarily large returns in the hundreds of millions or billions of dollars. For that reason, in the competition space, a fine that's linked to the benefit received by a corporation has a large amount of sense to it. In fact, it may be the only way of discouraging large-scale anticompetitive behaviour in corporate Australia, and we've seen it in other jurisdictions.</para>
<para>But, in the privacy space, the benefit that corporations may obtain from privacy beaches is far more ambiguous. For many entities—and we're seeing this play out in real time at the moment with Medibank, Optus and others—there's actually a net loss from privacy breaches. If you think for a moment about the reputational damage that's been done to Optus and Medicare for their data breaches—they may have some notional benefit in having underinvested in IT and other support mechanisms in the past. Maybe that's a notional benefit. It's unclear from the bill whether that's the kind of benefit that's being referred to in the proposed section 13G, and it will be interesting to hear from the government what their views on that are. That may be a benefit, but then they've had a huge disbenefit in the reputational damage and the harm to their customer base that's come about from these data breaches. In neither of those cases does it appear that the privacy breach was intentional, so the benefit is, at best, that historical underinvestment in cybersecurity. How does that work with the proposed 13G?</para>
<para>It would be fair to say that, after the committee hearing, how that works is as clear as mud. It's also not clear from the drafting—as I said, if the benefit is some kind of net benefit, you have to weigh up the positives and the negatives. And it's also not clear how the proposed alternative maximum fine of up to a third of annual turnover will be engaged where that benefit is hard to determine.</para>
<para>You may get the bizarre situation where a corporation may intentionally and deliberately breach the privacy laws and may enter into a contract, some kind of deal, to breach the privacy laws, for maybe a $20 million payment. For a deliberate, intentional, noxious breach of our privacy laws, they get $20 million, and they may be a large corporation with a billion-dollar turnover. You can identify what that benefit is: it's $20 million. The third element of the proposed section 13G says that where you can't determine the benefit you use 30 per cent of the turnover as the maximum, so if your turnover is a billion dollars that could be up to $300 million. In this case, that corporation which had a very noxious, intentional breach of the act has a capped maximum of $50 million because it didn't go above the first element of the proposed section13G.</para>
<para>Another corporation may have had no malice but just some kind of negligent breach of the Privacy Act and had their data hacked because they didn't put the proper measures in place. If they had a $1 billion turnover—perhaps the benefit they got was an historic underinvestment in cyber; you can't really work out what the value of that benefit is—that corporation may face a maximum penalty of up to $300 million. So the corporation with a noxious, deliberate breach of privacy, in that instance, gets a significantly lower penalty than the corporation that was negligent and didn't intend to but did have a serious breach. That makes no sense. And we're yet to see from the government some kind of explanation about how that's going to work in practice. Those difficulties arise from taking provisions that are designed from one part of the law—in this case, competition law—and just unthinkingly cutting and pasting them and whacking them into privacy law. So there is a very real need for the government to closely consider these drafting issues and do it as a matter of urgency.</para>
<para>Also, with these amendments, we have just one penalty, and I'd describe it as the nuclear option. After these amendments succeed, the only penalty that can be imposed for the breach of privacy laws is the $50 million maximum or, as we discussed earlier, potentially an even greater maximum penalty for corporations with large turnovers. There's no subtlety or nuance in the law. Removing that existing penalty and having a one-size-fits-all offence with a maximum penalty of $50 million leaves the regulator in an almost impossible situation.</para>
<para>Say there's a charity which has a $25 million annual turnover, and it has breached the privacy laws. It might be quite a serious breach. They failed to invest in the necessary IT measures, and there was a serious breach. They were put on notice, and they breached. What does the regulator do? Does the regulator bring a penalty with a maximum $50 million fine against the charity which has a $25 million annual turnover and, just by dint of bringing in the prosecution, effectively kills the charity? Think of a small business with a similar turnover. If you're a director in a small business and you get whacked with a penalty which may carry a maximum $50 million fine, you'd be having a chat with your insurers and your lawyers and thinking, 'Can we continue business the day after we get the fine?' There's no subtlety. How is that going to make our privacy any safer?</para>
<para>As the majority of contributors to the inquiry made clear, there's a need for a far more nuanced approach, with tiered penalties. For that reason, there's real benefit in agreeing to the larger maximum fine for serious or repeated breaches, rather than keeping the existing penalty for lesser breaches which are not necessarily serious or repeating. The Greens will have an amendment to do just that, in the committee stage.</para>
<para>I also indicate we're moving an amendment to the second reading to provide another enforcement measure, one that has been waiting decades to happen in this country. It urges this parliament—urges this house—to insert a new statutory civil cause of action for the serious invasion of privacy in the Privacy Act, modelled on what the Australian Law Reform Commission did in its 2014 report entitled <inline font-style="italic">S</inline><inline font-style="italic">erious invasions of privacy in the digital era</inline>.</para>
<para>I'll finish by saying this. When it comes to resourcing, one thing was abundantly clear from the inquiry and from other investigations we've had in budget estimates. The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner is grossly underfunded. As the commissioner noted in her evidence on this inquiry, her UK equivalent has 10 times the number of staff of the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner. The commissioner also noted that the $5½ million obtained to undertake her investigation into just one breach, the Optus breach, fairly represents what a complex investigation would cost under these new penalty provisions. So it's fair to ask how the office will properly investigate the raft of other data breaches that we've already seen, not least Medibank, or what else happened this morning before we came in here to speak in the chamber.</para>
<para>With a total budget of just over $33 million annually, from which all of the FOI and privacy work must be undertaken—and we know the FOI work is chronically underfunded—there is an obvious lack of practical capacity for the Information Commissioner to undertake any more than one serious privacy investigation at a time. That lack of financial capacity is, as I said, even clearer when you look at how chronically delayed and underfunded the FOI aspect of the Information Commissioner's work is.</para>
<para>The end result is that the parliament might agree to these tougher penalties—and it looks like they will—but the government has starved the regulator of the funds to seriously enforce them. At the end of this, we might have a Pyrrhic victory for data security. We get a headline, we get a new penalty—we get a penalty that's almost impossible to use because of the size and the scale of it—and we give it to a regulator which barely has the money needed to keep the lights on, let alone bring an actual prosecution in this space.</para>
<para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", and the Senate calls on the Government to introduce a bill into the Parliament to insert a statutory civil cause of action for serious invasion of privacy in the <inline font-style="italic">Privacy Act 1988</inline>, modelled on the Australian Law Reform Commission's 2014 report entitled <inline font-style="italic">Serious Invasions of Privacy in the Digital Era</inline>".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a brief contribution on the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022 so that I have the opportunity to move the coalition's second reading amendment. In doing so, I commend Senator Scarr, who articulated the coalition's position on this bill more broadly, which is that we support the bill but that we are concerned with some of the drafting of the bill. I commend Senator Scarr and Senator Shoebridge for their work on the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, which inquired into this bill. I find myself, in addition to agreeing with my own colleague Senator Scarr, in strong agreement with Senator Shoebridge about the drafting and design issues of this bill, and the risk and potential for unintended consequences because of the way in which this has been done. I particularly commend the committee for the work they did in the very limited time they were allowed to do it; they were asked to report very quickly, but, nonetheless, even in that short time they have identified a number of serious issues with this bill.</para>
<para>The coalition's approach to this issue is going to be by way of a second reading amendment. The reason for that is that we believe this is a very complex issue and would not be assisted by amendments on the fly in the chamber from the opposition or the crossbench; it really is a matter for government to get these things right. We also don't want to stand in the way of the passage of these increased penalties because we agree increased penalties are necessary; Australians certainly feel that way after their data has been lost by major companies who should have been in a better place to defend their data. We need to send a very strong signal to corporate Australia that we have high expectations of them when they collect sensitive data from Australians.</para>
<para>Like Senator Scarr and Senator Shoebridge articulated, we are concerned about the definitions, particularly the meaning of 'serious and repeated' in relation to the act. We agree a tiered penalty regime would be preferable, which would allow us to take account of those less severe breaches and those more serious ones, and take into account companies who have been negligent in their handling of data compared to those who have taken all reasonable steps. We agree it's important for the Australian Information Commissioner and the Cyber Security Centre to have adequate resources, to make sure they can implement this in practice in an adequate way. We also believe the Australian Information Commissioner, particularly in light of any legislative amendments which clarify those definitions, should be providing some guidance material which makes it very clear to companies how they're supposed to comply with this law.</para>
<para>Just to sum up: we will be supporting this bill and moving a second reading amendment to articulate those concerns—particularly those raised by industry, including the Tech Council and independent third-party submitters like the Law Council, which we think were points well made in the inquiry process.</para>
<para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate calls on the Government:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) to clarify key definitions in the bill, in particular the meaning of 'serious' and 'repeated' in relation to breaches under the Act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) to develop a tiered penalty regime that could take into account less severe breaches, and that seeks to differentiate between companies that have acted with malice and those that have taken all reasonable steps but have fallen victim to a cyber attack;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) to direct the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner to issue guidance material that addresses the application of penalties, and clarifies best practice for compliance with the regime; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) to consider the adequacy of current resourcing and staffing levels for the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner and the Australian Cyber Security Centre for each to perform their functions, and to address all of the concerns raised by the former government in the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enhancing Online Privacy and Other Measures) Bill 2021".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROB</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>ERTS () (): As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I note the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022 makes a number of piecemeal amendments to our privacy legislation. It gives some more power to the Australian Information Commissioner and increases penalties for interferences with privacy. The Labor Party wants to look like it's doing something about protecting privacy, yet this bill is the equivalent of putting a bandaid on an amputated leg.</para>
<para>Let's start with the Australian Information Commissioner. This agency is clearly not fit for purpose. It doesn't matter how much information-sharing power the commissioner has or how big the penalties are; if the cop on the block is so busy with a legacy caseload, it can't be expected to protect Australians.</para>
<para>Let me give you an example of how the commission is currently broken. The commission is responsible for dealing with appeals in relation to freedom-of-information requests. We heard shocking evidence at Senate estimates from the commission. In 2021, 670 applications to review freedom-of-information decisions more than a year old had not been resolved. At estimates we heard that, as of November, 2,042 applications for review were outstanding, with 1,055 older than 12 months. Concerningly, 60 appeals more than four years old are still outstanding. This blowout represents a 150 per cent increase in freedom-of-information appeals over 12 months old.</para>
<para>Freedom of information is about timely access to documents that government wants to keep secret. This is not acceptable. The government is supposed to serve the people. Instead of getting on top of its current responsibilities, the commission is being snowed under at a rapid and increasing pace. This is the commission this bill is giving more powers to and that we are meant to rely on to protect Australians' privacy. Their track record does not inspire confidence they will be able to do that.</para>
<para>Nothing in this bill addresses one of the greatest perpetrators of data breaches from hacks in this country, the government. Worldwide, the greatest breaches of privacy come from governments and big tech. I will say it again: nothing in this bill addresses one of the greatest perpetrators of data breaches from hacks in this country, the government. If they thought the Optus and Medibank hacks were the main story, they're just the tip of the iceberg. ABC reports this morning indicate that logins for Australian tax office accounts, medical and personal data of thousands of NDIS recipients, the login details of individual myGov accounts, and confidential details of an alleged assault of a Victorian school student by their teacher are among terabytes of hacked data being openly traded online. This is government data—data that the government gathers, that the government stores—that has been hacked and leaked, sometimes destroying lives as well as destroying privacy. Will this bill ensure the government is held to account for that?</para>
<para>We need a much larger conversation around privacy than this bill allows. The hacks of government databases show nowhere is safe from hacking, least of all government. In we are going to improve privacy protections in Australia, we need to oppose the trusted digital identity. The digital identity will centralise all Australians' private, sensitive data into one place. It will be a hacker's one-stop shop to steal sensitive information.</para>
<para>We will support this bill and note it is completely inadequate to ensure Australians' privacy while the Information Commissioner continues to fail its current responsibilities and the government pushes a centralised digital identity that will be a hacker's paradise. We need much more than this bill offers. It's a first step, but we need much, much more to secure people's privacy. We have one flag, and it's above this building. We are one community. We are one nation. The individual's security, privacy, freedom and sovereignty are fundamental to a strong nation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank all honourable senators for their contributions to the debate on this important bill, the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enforcement and Other Measures) Bill 2022.</para>
<para>I would also like to thank the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, who have carefully considered the bill and recommended it be passed. The detailed work that was undertaken by that committee was also reflected in a number of the more thoughtful contributions in this debate. The government also accepts the committee's recommendations that the Attorney-General's Department, as part of its Privacy Act review, should firstly consider amending section 13G of the Privacy Act to define the terms 'serious' and 'repeated' interference with privacy; and secondly examine whether it is appropriate to provide for any additional Australian link to the extraterritorial jurisdiction provision. I would thank the chair and deputy chair of the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee, Senators Green and Scarr, the members of that committee and all those who made submissions and gave evidence to the committee's inquiry.</para>
<para>This bill is a priority for the Albanese government and sends a clear message that entities must take privacy, security and data protection seriously. Recent data breaches have caused considerable distress and alarm for millions of Australians and have the potential to cause serious financial and emotional harm well into the future. Increasing penalties for a serious or repeated breach of privacy will incentivise entities to take strong privacy and cybersecurity measures to protect the personal data they hold. Setting these penalties at a higher level will accord with Australian community expectations about the importance of protecting their personal data and the significant impact caused by serious privacy breaches.</para>
<para>The maximum penalty, while operating as a statutory cap, does not otherwise constrain the exercise of the court's discretion to impose a penalty that is appropriate to the seriousness of the misconduct and harm or potential harm in the particular circumstances of the case. This discretion that a court would have would deal with the hypothetical example, characterised by Senator Shoebridge, relating to an NGO and the potential effect on them. That would be a matter for the court's discretion. We think that provides some protection and an overwhelming fine against an NGO. This measure is complemented by a range of targeted enhancements to the enforcement powers to equip the Australian Information Commissioner with the tools necessary to take effective and efficient enforcement action where necessary.</para>
<para>I note the calls that have been made by a number of senators for adequate resourcing for the commissioner, and this is a matter that is being considered part of the government's broader review of privacy rules and legislation. Greater information-sharing arrangements for privacy and telecommunications regulators will also ensure Australians are informed about emerging privacy issues and will ensure these regulators are able to work together to take prompt action to minimise harm to Australians.</para>
<para>The bill is an essential first step of the government's agenda to ensure Australia's privacy framework is fit for purpose and responds to new challenges in the digital era. Further reforms will be considered next year, following consideration of the Attorney-General's Department review of the Privacy Act. This bill is an important and pressing reform that will make sure penalties effectively deter the misuse of Australians' personal data and will ensure Australia's privacy regulator has the enforcement tools necessary to resolve privacy breaches efficiently and effectively. The bill is a reflection of community expectations and demonstrates the Albanese government's commitment to keeping Australians' data protected.</para>
<para>I think now is probably the appropriate time for me to respond to the second reading amendments that have been moved both by the opposition and by Senator Shoebridge. Dealing with the opposition's second reading amendment to begin with, the government does not support this amendment, as it's appropriate to await the Attorney-General's Department's review of the Privacy Act. The bill that we are debating here is a targeted and proportionate response to the recent data breaches. The government is acting now to increase the penalties, as the current maximum penalties are inadequate. The penalties need to be increased to incentivise entities to have appropriate privacy and cybersecurity settings, and they reflect the harm that data breaches can cause. Reforms to: clarify key definitions in the Privacy Act; develop a tiered penalty regime; provide greater clarity on the application of penalties; and enhance security guidelines are being considered through the Privacy Act review. It's appropriate that these reforms be considered holistically in this process, given the range of complex and interconnected issues and other work across government. This will also allow the necessary time to carefully consider the need to balance potential new privacy obligations with any regulatory burden on entities.</para>
<para>In the October 2022-23 budget, the government provided the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner with $5.5 million over two years to investigate the Optus data breach, including to undertake preparatory work to support any future legal action. We also confirmed $17 million over two years to ensure the office is adequately resourced to meet the increasing complexity and potential increases of privacy complaints in the digital age and take the strategic enforcement action that was announced in the March 22-23 budget. The government will be carefully looking at the resourcing requirements of the Office of the Information Commissioner as part of the Privacy Act review process. In 2023, there will be an overhaul of the Privacy Act, and it will be important to consider the resourcing needs of the office in that context.</para>
<para>In relation to Senator Shoebridge's second reading amendment, which, effectively, seeks to introduce a statutory tort in relation to privacy, the government does not support this amendment as it is appropriate, again, to await the Attorney-General's Department's review of the Privacy Act. As part of this review, the department is giving consideration as to whether a statutory tort of privacy should be introduced. We should not pre-empt the outcomes of this review. It is appropriate that broader reforms be considered holistically in this process, given—again—the range of complex and interconnected issues, including whole-of-economy implications. A statutory tort would allow private citizens to seek remedies for serious invasions of their privacy and may create a more effective framework for individuals to seek compensatory damages for invasions of privacy. But this, along with the matters raised in the opposition's second reading amendment, are things that we think are best dealt with through the review of the Privacy Act that is now underway.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that the second reading moved by Senator Shoebridge be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:38]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator McGrath)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the second reading amendment on sheet 1765, circulated in my name:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate calls on the Government:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) to clarify key definitions in the bill, in particular the meaning of 'serious' and 'repeated' in relation to breaches under the Act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) to develop a tiered penalty regime that could take into account less severe breaches, and that seeks to differentiate between companies that have acted with malice and those that have taken all reasonable steps but have fallen victim to a cyber attack;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) to direct the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner to issue guidance material that addresses the application of penalties, and clarifies best practice for compliance with the regime; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) to consider the adequacy of current resourcing and staffing levels for the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner and the Australian Cyber Security Centre for each to perform their functions, and to address all of the concerns raised by the former government in the Privacy Legislation Amendment (Enhancing Online Privacy and Other Measures) Bill 2021".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment, as moved by Senator Paterson, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:45]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>20</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the second reading, as amended, be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>16</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 14, page 5 (before line 17), before subsection 13G(2), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1A) Subsection (1) is a civil penalty provision.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: Section 80U deals with civil penalty provisions in this Act.</para></quote>
<para>This amendment inserts a new subsection 13G(1A) to make it clear on the face of the legislation that section 13G of the Privacy Act is a civil penalty provision and triggers part 4 of the Regulatory Powers (Standard Provisions) Act 2014. This technical amendment expressly clarifies that the increased penalties proposed in this bill are civil penalties. The amendment will enable the updated civil penalty provision in section 13G to be enforced under the Regulatory Powers (Standard Provisions) Act. I table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to the government amendment to be moved to this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition will be supporting these amendments, which go to drafting issues in the bill. All I will add is that of course these are not the only drafting issues identified in the bill. Through the committee process, as articulated by Senator Scarr and Senator Shoebridge in their contributions, it is our view that those other drafting issues should have also been addressed at this opportunity, but that is a matter for the government. If they don't think these are problems and they think that they won't materialise in practice, then we hope they're right and we will be supporting these amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We don't oppose this amendment, but it's not the issue.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that amendment (1) on sheet PC128 moved by Minister Watt be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sena</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>tor SHOEBRIDGE () (): by leave—I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1736, as circulated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 5 (after line 10), after item 11, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11A At the end of Division 1 of Part III</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13GA Other interferences with privacy</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An entity contravenes this subsection if the entity does an act, or engages in a practice, that is an interference with the privacy of one or more individuals.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Civil penalty: 2,000 penalty units</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 45, page 18 (after line 6), after subitem (3), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3A) Section 13GA of the <inline font-style="italic">Privacy Act 1988</inline>, as added by this Schedule, does not apply in relation to an act done, or a practice engaged in, before the commencement of this item.</para></quote>
<para>As we noted in the second reading contribution, the amendments to the Privacy Act that have been presented by the government, which are going to be agreed, are going to create a one-size-fits-very-few penalty regime where the only penalty available to the regulator is a minimum maximum, if you like, of $50 million for a penalty and then potentially a higher penalty if a corporation has a turnover that would trigger the higher penalty. This amendment seeks to put in a new section 13GA into the Privacy Act, which would provide that an entity contravenes this subsection if the entity doesn't act and or engages in a practice that is in interference with the privacy of one or more individuals, and it seeks to retain the existing civil penalty of 2,000 penalty units for that breach. It also has a consequential amendment that provides that there's no retrospectivity in relation to that proposed provision.</para>
<para>The proposed new section 13GA would remove the necessity for 'repeated or serious' from the offence provision and provide for what pretty much every stakeholder said we need, whether it was Electronic Frontiers, Digital Rights Watch or even the business reps who came before the inquiry that we had: put in place a tiered approach. If the Greens amendment was successful, it would allow the regulator to have at least some nuance in how the regulator goes about enforcing privacy. But if they see a breach of the privacy laws—and it may well be a quite disturbing breach; it doesn't have to be serious or repeated, but it could be—then instead of having to go and press the nuclear launch button of the $50 million penalty they'd be able to seek a penalty that has a maximum value of some 2,000 penalty units for a corporation which would not see small or medium businesses or charities potentially going to the wall when the regulator takes action.</para>
<para>Without this, we're going to see no realistic way of enforcing the privacy laws against small and medium business or against the charitable and not-for-profit sector. If the only tool to hand for the regulator is a $50-million-plus maximum penalty, that is not going to be able to be used in any practical way against small and medium business or against NGOs and the not-for-profit sector; it just won't be. And we're going to pass a law here today that is actually going to mean less real power, less real capacity for the regulator to enforce our privacy laws.</para>
<para>The Greens amendment fills that gap. It puts in that tier, which is a realistic penalty that could actually be used by the regulator, who would therefore have a meaningful way of keeping our data and our privacy safe. Without this, let's be clear, the regulator won't have the resources for 99.9 per cent of privacy and data breaches, and it definitely won't have the political will to whack an entity with a $50 million maximum fine. It just won't happen. This is about sensible, measured, nuanced regulation. It's what pretty much every stakeholder said we should do with this bill, and I commend the amendment to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As Senator Shoebridge is aware, this issue is being considered more broadly as part of the Privacy Act review, and that's why we will be opposing the amendment at this point in time—so that the review can do its work.</para>
<para>The powers that are currently available to the Information Commissioner in this area are based on an enforcement-pyramid approach to regulation. The act initially relies upon the Information Commissioner encouraging compliance, and then there are determinations and enforcement in the courts if that is not successful. For the most egregious interferences with privacy, section 13G of the act provides for the Information Commissioner to take civil penalty action against the entity in the Federal Court.</para>
<para>The question that the review is considering is whether the regulatory options available are too limited to target the different levels of seriousness with which interference with privacy occurs. The review is considering two additional categories of civil penalty provisions that cover less serious conduct than that in section 13G but that still might warrant enforcement action. The first new category would be a new mid-tier civil penalty for any interference with privacy, with a lesser maximum penalty amount. The second new category would be a series of very low level civil penalty provisions for administrative breaches of the APPs, with attached infringement notice powers for the Information Commissioner.</para>
<para>Given these proposals are about creating entirely new civil penalty provisions, it's appropriate that these issues are considered thoroughly as part of the review. However, the increase to the maximum penalty of the existing provision of the act which we are in the process of putting through this chamber is a targeted amendment to ensure the maximum penalty available reflects the fact that it is the most serious enforcement action that can be taken by the Information Commissioner where there has been a serious breach of privacy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATERSON</name>
    <name.id>144138</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>While the opposition supports, in principle, the amendments moved by the Greens—and in fact included a similar call for such a regime in our second reading amendment which the chamber has just agreed to—as I articulated in my speech in the second reading debate, we are concerned about and we should not be doing complex amendments to complex legislation like this on the fly in the chamber. There is a risk of unintended consequences.</para>
<para>I do welcome the minister's statement that the government will consider this as part of their wider reforms. That is important, because Senator Shoebridge is right; it will be very difficult to apply a $50 million penalty to a very small entity, and it will be very difficult to apply it in the instance of an inadvertent breach rather than a serious one. We are concerned about that—and industry and stakeholders and third-party groups in the inquiry process made that very clear, as Senator Shoebridge has explained to the chamber. But, as a matter of principle, we think the government are in the best place to address this issue, with the access to drafting resources and expertise that they have through the department.</para>
<para>The only concern I want to finish on and put on the record is that that process not take too long. If too much time elapses between the passage of these increased penalties and the more comprehensive privacy reforms that the government is talking about, I think Senator Shoebridge is right that we won't have made any meaningful improvement to the cybersecurity and privacy of Australians. It is important that that more comprehensive reform come forward as soon as possible to address these wider and more complex issues.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for the contribution. I note the minister said there is a pyramid of enforcement measures. If it is a pyramid, it is absolutely built on sand, with minimal actual enforcement measures. Most of us, if we're honest, would accept that cranky letters, rude notices or angry reports from the Information Commissioner have not worked in the past to keep our privacy safe, and those kinds of existing remedies will not work, going into the future, to keep our privacy safe. So, if that's the pyramid the government thinks has any kind of utility or use, I think reality and what everyday Australians are feeling on a day-in, day-out basis with the privacy breaches they've been suffering would suggest otherwise. That being said, I do acknowledge the government has now given the commitment to move to have a tiered approach, which is what I understand the minister was saying, that the intent is to deliver a tiered approach which will give some capacity for the regulator to actually use the powers. But I would be interested to know from the minister what the time frame is to deliver that tiered approach, because the longer we go without it the longer we go in basically having lawless provisions. That is, no real, enforceable provisions for privacy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The report from the privacy review will be handed down and provided to the Attorney-General by end of this calendar year, so I would anticipate then that we'd get moving on this in the New Year.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Is there a commitment from the government to make that report public, and, if so, what's the time frame for that?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm probably not in a position to make that commitment at this point. I know that the review and the report will be also considered by cabinet, so I guess it will be a matter for cabinet as to what is publicly released.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On a different point, if I may, to the minister: is it the government's intention that the concept of benefit in the proposed new subsections 13G(2) and (3) is a net benefit or is it any benefit that would trigger the provisions of 13G(2) to (3)?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It will be any benefit.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in those circumstances, is it true that if a corporation had put measures in place but not sufficient measures, and maybe therefore had had a hard to determine but fairly modest benefit from an underspend in the IT, yet they may have suffered a huge commercial loss with customers leaving and remedies being put in place as a result of an attack on their IT, and therefore be potentially tens or hundreds of millions in the red, that they'll be perceived as having received a benefit and therefore will be potentially liable for the 13G(3) penalty?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a little difficult to comment on any possible hypotheticals that you are putting forward, but obviously it would be a matter for the court to determine whether a company has had a benefit and whether its actions or inactions warrant any type of penalty.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, will the government be engaging with the not-for-profit and charitable sector, who are very concerned about this maximum penalty being in place? Will you be engaging with the charitable and not-for-profit sector and potentially, as part of that, engaging with them in guidelines for the Information Commissioner about how this new penalty provision will be used? And, are you intending to provide some additional resources for the charitable and not-for-profit sector so that they can effectively meet their privacy obligations, given what may otherwise be a ruinous penalty being delivered to them under this new regime?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm advised that the government will be consulting and engaging with non-government organisations, because, as you say, they do have legitimate concerns, and it's in everyone's interest to assist NGOs to meet their obligations in this space. I'm also advised that guidelines and other information material will be provided to NGOs so that they can comply with their legal requirements.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is any part of the government's plans to provide the charitable and not-for-profit sector with the kinds of funds they're going to need to meet their obligations? We're passing a bill now which is saying that if they have a repeat or serious breach then they may face a penalty of up to $50 million. Are you going to provide them with the kind of funds that they need to meet their privacy obligations? The anxiety in the sector is very real.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Those matters around funding, Senator Shoebridge, will be considered as part of the implementation of the Privacy Act review.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the committee is that amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1736 standing in the name of Senator Shoebridge be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [12:09]<br />(The Temporary Chair—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.<br />Bill, as amended, agreed to. <br />Bill reported with an amendment; report adopted.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>19</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>20</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6890" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>20</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The coalition will be supporting this bill, the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022. This bill implements a number of sensible measures of the previous coalition government. For a number of these measures their implementation was delayed due to the COVID-19 pandemic. This bill provides effective changes to support small businesses in handling their affairs with the Australian Taxation Office, providing them with additional supports in the event of inadvertent breaches, as opposed to financial penalties. It provides small businesses additional support in dealing with the ATO appeals process and removes tax barriers to support sole traders and individuals looking to upskill. It supports gig economy contractors and companies to manage their tax obligations and ensures that the ATO has the data it needs to ensure accurate reporting. And it puts in place important reforms to support the coalition's election commitment to support Australians over 55 to downsize their properties and contribute to their super. This bill builds on the coalition's strong record of supporting small business, retirees and sensible reforms to super, as well as supporting the housing market.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What we're seeing in Australia at the moment is a redefinition of class. It used to be that, if you worked hard, if you studied hard, if you spent your pennies wisely, you could actually set yourself up for a good life. But that guarantee no longer exists in Australia. The egalitarian social contract upon which we once prided ourselves as a country has been torn up. Nowadays, the thing that is most likely to determine your financial success throughout the course of your life is the extent to which you or your family own land. We've gone from being a nation of a fair go to being a country that resembles a new feudal order. This is no accident. This is the direct result of 30-odd years of economic policy that, instead of treating housing as a human right that everyone should have access to at an affordable rate, has instead treated housing as a financial asset designed to enrich those who own the most of it and designed to enrich the banks, whose business model is predicated on land price inflation. Through tax policy, through monetary policy and through prudential regulation, the Australian economy is designed to enrich landholders and to enrich the moneylenders. By that design, we have torn up the social contract that our country used to be based on, which is in part an understanding that, if you did work hard, study hard and spend your pennies wisely, you could set up yourself and your family for a dignified life.</para>
<para>That takes me to schedule 5 of this bill, the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022, which reduces the eligibility age from 60 to 55 for people to make so-called downsizer contributions to their superannuation. I say the 'so-called' downsizer contributions because this policy is actually just one of the latest and increasingly more byzantine ways in which tax law is being rigged to favour those whose landholdings are worth the most. The <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> very helpfully set out just what a rort this scheme is at the point that it was introduced by the then Treasurer, Mr Morrison, I might add, in 2018 and when the eligibility age was actually 65. The following is from an article instructively entitled 'How to put more into super when you're not really downsizing'. The article states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These contributions, known as "downsizer contributions", present an opportunity to top up your super even if you're otherwise unable to contribute … due to your age, work status or the amount you've got in super.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But don't let the name fool you.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To make a downsizer contribution you could be selling your home to buy a bigger one—if in fact you buy another place at all. You could be moving into your investment property, holiday home or even into aged care. You don't even have to sell the place you're living in—you could be selling another property that was once the family home.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To make a downsizer contribution you don't have to even buy another place.</para></quote>
<para>So there you have it: don't let the name fool you. Despite all the rubbish flowing about around reducing the barriers to downsizing, more effective use of the housing stock, freeing up larger homes for families, this policy is nothing more than an opportunity for those with the most expensive homes and those with the most excess wealth to load up their superannuation accounts so they can get even more public subsidies in the form of superannuation tax concessions for their estate planning. That's because, to quote again from the <inline font-style="italic">AFR</inline>:</para>
<quote><para class="block">While the downsizer contribution has broad application, people likely to benefit most will be self-funded retirees who have a level of income and assets that precludes them receiving any means-tested social security …</para></quote>
<para>There you have it, plain and simple. What we are debating now, brought in by a so-called Labor government, is a public subsidy for the wealthy.</para>
<para>It's exactly the sort policy we'd expect from Mr Morrison and a Tory government. And do you know what? That's actually exactly what it is: Mr Morrison's Tory policy brought forward by the Australian Labor Party, the so-called great friend of the working and less-well off in our society. The Labor Party who will not increase the rate of Newstart but who are quite happy indeed to bring in a massive public subsidy for the already very wealthy. This was Tory policy when Mr Morrison introduced it as Treasurer in 2018 and it was Tory policy when the eligibility age was reduced from 65 to 60 while Mr Morrison was Prime Minister. And it's Tory policy today, which is why, when the Australian Greens introduce an amendment in the committee stages to strike out this part of the bill, it will be voted down by—that's right, you guessed it!—the political duopoly in this country: the Coles and Woolworths of Australian politics. They will vote together to ensure that the rich get yet another public handout in Australia while the poor continue to struggle and starve because neither major party in the duopoly support a rise in the rate of Newstart.</para>
<para>This policy to provide yet more superannuation tax concessions for the rich, when the superannuation system already provides more public subsidies to the rich than it does to anybody else, is an absolute obscenity. And do you know what? It was announced by the former Prime Minister, Mr Morrison at the coalition's election campaign launch earlier this year. So here we are debating a centrepiece of Mr Morrison's bid for re-election—a key pitch by the leader of what the new Prime Minister quite rightly described as a 'rotten government', and it's being introduced by the Australian Labor Party. This is absolutely <inline font-style="italic">Alice in Wonder</inline><inline font-style="italic">land</inline> stuff! The party of the workers comes in here with massive public subsidies for the extremely wealthy. How good, to quote Mr Morrison, is the Australian Labor Party? What did the self-styled Tory fighter, Mr Albanese, do when Mr Morrison announced this very policy as one of his landmark campaign policies in the election? He ate it up, didn't he? That's what Mr Albanese did, he ate it up. He ate it up really fast, because he didn't want to get wedged. How good is the Australian Labor Party?</para>
<para>We all know that Labor would never have come up with this policy on their own. But they are such a gutless shadow of their former selves that Tory policy is now Labor policy. Here they are in schedule 5 of this bill with yet another handout of public funds to the super wealthy and the very well off in this country, actually legislating Tory policy. Once again, like the stage 3 tax cuts, this is Mr Albanese adopting Mr Morrison's legacy.</para>
<para>I say to the Australian Labor Party: you need to find yourselves again. You need to have a good look in the mirror and find out exactly what your values are.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallagher</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>By winning elections!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that interjection from Senator Gallagher, because that shows it was all about winning the election and nothing at all about good public policy. I say to the Australian Labor Party: you need to have a good look in the mirror and try and return to the values that led to your establishment all those decades ago. You've got to face that you're no longer the party of the working people first and foremost; you're now joining the Tories as a party of the landowners first and foremost. I encourage progressively minded people to understand this.</para>
<para>When progressively minded people hear the Albanese government say that they won't get rid of negative gearing or the capital gains tax concessions, that they can't afford to build the amount of social housing we actually need, that they're going to proceed with the stage 3 tax cuts for the super wealthy, that they won't introduce a rent freeze, that they're going to proceed with the provisions in this bill for yet another public superannuation subsidy for those at the top end of town, what people are hearing is the Australian Labor Party confirming that they represent the interests of the landowning class over and above the interests of working Australians. That's what the Labor Party is saying, and that's what people should hear when they hear the Labor Party talk about those things and when they see the Labor Party introduce legislation such as this.</para>
<para>I give notice of my intention to move the amendment on sheet 1632, circulated in my name, which would strike out schedule 5 from this bill. I commend that amendment to the chamber but I hold out no hope it will succeed, because the duopoly in this place is going to once again work together, to collude, to ensure that the interests of the landed class in this country have primacy and that the interests of those who are less well-off are once again ignored.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I deal with the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022, I want to respond to some of Senator McKim's—I'm not quite sure what the right word is.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pointed!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure 'pointed' is the right word! Of all weeks to claim there is a duopoly, of all weeks to say there's a Coles and Woolworths of Australian politics! This is a week that's going to demonstrate a couple of things: firstly, that there is a very big difference between what we stand for in government and what the former government did and stood for, to the extent you could say they stood for anything apart from their own interests; and, secondly, that there's quite a bit of a gulf between us. We are going to deliver this week what we said we were going to deliver, and this bill is part of that agenda—a national integrity commission, and industrial relations reform. Last week it was child care. The problem with this silly hyperbolic rhetoric is: in order for political rhetoric to be effective, it has to have some relationship with the truth.</para>
<para>I listened to Senator McKim's account of the terrible things that this bill was going to do, and I thought: 'I'd better check for myself. This doesn't sound very good.' It turns out downsizing is not a bad thing; we should have more of it. People who live in big homes—and there are only a few of them—should give them away, and people with big families should move into big homes and people with little families should move into little homes, and there should be a little bit of support from government for that. I had a look at the budget impact—not very much. You can claim to be opposed to extreme rhetoric on the other side of politics, and all the engagement with the characters who inhabit that end, but you've actually got to be a little bit measured when it comes to what you say yourself. Schedule 5 is very clear. Downsizing is good; the budget impact is tiny. In this week, of all weeks, you try and claim these things—I think this week should have a trigger warning for Liberal politicians. We had the Victorian election last Saturday. I can't wait for next Saturday, but last Saturday—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Hubris!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Hubris? I don't even know what that means. I didn't do Greek at Glen Innes High School—I was flat out passing English! We had a week that began with the sorts of creatures who inhabit the Victorian component of the Liberal-National party out here cohabiting with these extremists and loons on the far right of Victorian politics—vaccine denialists and conspiracy theorists. And we had senior former and current Liberal politicians saying, 'What about Dan Andrews's stairs?', hanging out with utter extremists and enabling violence at polling booths. They thought they might surf through to a victory and got comprehensively flogged last Saturday.</para>
<para>You would think that there'd be a moment of self-reflection, but we're seeing the same stunts from over here. We're about to see another one from Senator Bragg this afternoon, in the greatest game of inside baseball you'd ever see, with his matter of public importance. I'm looking forward to that discussion. Then you have hyperbolic claims from this lot. On this side we will do sensible reform. We'll do it carefully. We'll do it methodically. We'll do what we said we were going to do and we'll do it in a straightforward, sensible order. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to thank senators who have contributed to this debate today. Schedule 1 of the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 2) Bill 2022 makes it easier for businesses to understand their record-keeping obligations. If a business is genuinely struggling to keep appropriate tax records, the Commissioner of Taxation will be allowed to offer them a choice to undertake a record-keeping course rather than paying financial penalties. The commissioner cannot offer this course to businesses that are disengaged with the tax system or deliberately avoiding their obligations.</para>
<para>Schedule 2 of the bill extends existing third-party reporting requirements to operators of electronic platforms in the sharing economy. Platform operators will be required to report information regarding certain transactions and payment details to the ATO. This information will assist the ATO in its administration of the tax system and ensure sellers on these platforms are meeting their tax obligations.</para>
<para>Schedule 3 of the bill reduces compliance costs for individuals claiming self-education deductions by removing the exclusion of the first $250 of deductions for prescribed courses of education.</para>
<para>Schedule 4 of the bill allows small businesses to seek orders from the AAT that stay or otherwise affect ATO debt-recovery actions while the small business is disputing the underlying tax assessment in the small-business tax division of the AAT. Applying to the AAT instead of the courts will save small businesses money in court and legal fees and as much as 60 days of waiting for a decision. These orders will be subjected to integrity checks intended to prevent aggressive taxpayers without genuine disputes from receiving stay orders sought with the intention of frustrating the recovery of genuine tax debts.</para>
<para>Schedule 5 of the bill expands eligibility for those aged 55 years and over to make downsizer contributions into superannuation. This will allow more Australians to consider downsizing to a home that better suits their needs, thereby increasing the availability of suitable housing for Australian families. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>22</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I indicated during my second reading speech, I do have an amendment. This amendment is to strike out the so-called downsizer provisions from this legislation. I want to very quickly use this opportunity to respond to a couple of comments made by Senator Ayres, who took issue with what I'd said and then proceeded to give us a little homily on the importance of downsizing. Clearly, he hadn't listened to my speech, because one of the absolute, primary premises of my speech is that, actually, this is not about downsizing at all; it's just about a further subsidy for the landed class and the very well-off in this country. I thank the Senate. I seek leave to move amendments (1) and (2) standing in my name and circulated on sheet 1632 together.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1632 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 2 (table item 4), omit the table item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 5, page 18 (lines 1 to 9), to be opposed.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The coalition will not be supporting the amendment moved by Senator McKim. This bill implements a number of sensible measures of the previous coalition government. For a number of these measures, the implementation was delayed due to the COVID-19 pandemic. The coalition supports the bill in its current form.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government won't be supporting Senator McKim's amendment. The expansion of the downsizer scheme will allow older Australians to consider downsizing to go earlier a home that better suits their needs, thereby increasing the availability of suitable housing for Australian families. Lowering the eligibility age from 60 to 55 recognises some people choose to downsize earlier and may wish to contribute these proceeds to superannuation in order to boost their income in retirement.</para>
<para>The government is dedicated to supporting older Australians and, importantly, to growing the housing supply. That's why we are also committing to developing an ambitious housing and homelessness reform agenda, bringing national leadership and a strong focus on stable and affordable housing. We've also committed to the $10 billion Housing Australia Future Fund, a national help-to-buy shared-equity scheme, a National Housing Supply and Affordability Council and a national housing and homelessness plan. This schedule in the bill is an important part of our overall housing approach, and we will not be supporting the Greens' amendment.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: The question is that schedule 5 stands as printed.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill reported without amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>23</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022, Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Imposition Amendment Bill 2022, Income Tax Amendment (Labour Mobility Program) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>23</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6906" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6897" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Imposition Amendment Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6899" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Income Tax Amendment (Labour Mobility Program) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
            <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
              <span class="HPS-Normal">Consideration resumed of the motion:</span>
            </p>
            <p class="HPS-Small" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
              <span class="HPS-Small">That these bills be now read a second time.</span>
            </p>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>27</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>GALLAGHER (—) (): by leave—In relation to the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022, I move government amendments (1) and (2) on sheet ZA193 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 2 (table item 5), omit the table item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 5, page 14 (line 1) to page 19 (line 14), to be opposed.</para></quote>
<para>As I foreshadowed in my speech summing up the second reading debate, this amendment removes schedule 5 from the bill pending further discussions with senators about how to proceed with that amendment. I table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to the government's amendments to be moved in relation to these bills.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister confirm that the amendments she has just moved, on sheet ZA193, are exactly the same as the opposition's amendments on sheet 1732?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that it is, but the government was unaware that you were moving that amendment, and certainly I was unaware that you were moving that amendment. We had ours amended ahead of that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For the record, the opposition's amendment was circulated last week, so it was well aware to the chamber. Why has it been necessary to change the government's position from it's position in the House of Representatives, where it voted against the opposition's amendment which is now your amendment, to its position in the Senate this morning?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We've changed our position in light of consultations with senators.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My apologies, Senator Gallagher, I didn't hear that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We made that decision based on further discussions with senators in this place.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Which senators?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can't speak on behalf of the minister, but I'm aware there were discussions with senators across the Senate. I'm certainly aware of discussions that I've had with Senator McKim and others.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DE</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>AN SMITH () (): Could you take it on notice and report back to the chamber exactly which other senators were consulted before the government chose to copy the opposition's amendment?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll see what I can do to assist the chamber.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In your remarks prior to introducing your amendment which copies the opposition's amendment which has been circulated for some time, you gave a commitment around further consultation. Can you provide to the Senate some additional detail about what that consultation will entail and with whom?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In my second reading speech I referred to the Your Future, Your Super review. I expect those consultations will be finalised shortly with a report to the minister some time early next year—in the first quarter of next year.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the government leaving it open to weaken Your Future, Your Super arrangements?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, that's not the intention. I think we need to wait for that review to be complete. I think it's very difficult for me to stand here and answer what would be the outcome of a review that hasn't been provided to the government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Won't government senators be embarrassed to be supporting an amendment in the Senate this afternoon which government House members were forced to vote against just last week?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, not at all. I think you have seen from this government the approach we are taking as a government, which is to talk and consult and respond accordingly. That's what you have seen with this amendment. It wasn't going to be supported by the Senate. That was clear. If there is another way we can address the concerns the opposition have in respect of this part of the bill along with concerns that the crossbench have had with that part of the bill, and if there is way we can bring people together to reach agreement on that, I think that would be a good thing.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Why didn't the government use the committee inquiry process and Senate Economics Committee report to advise the Senate and stakeholders more broadly of its intention not to pursue schedule 5?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government is always mindful and watches Senate committee inquiries and reports, so I have no doubt that that fed into some of the minister's considerations as he was resolving this issue. It's a source of information; it's not the only source. Further discussions were had and the government has taken the decision to amend the bill in light of those discussions.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Why did the consultations happen only after the bill was introduced to the parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I don't think that's necessarily an unusual way of doing things. Quite often we develop legislation, and then that legislation is amended after further discussions with MPs and senators. So, in that respect, this is a very unsurprising amendment. It happens regularly. It happened when you were in government. It will continue to happen, particularly when you are in a minority chamber where the government can't act alone. We have to work across the chamber. We try to work collegiately as much as we can in this place. This is just another example of that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to foreshadow that I will be voting for the amendments moved by the government and the coalition. Australians all deserve to be in a high-performing superannuation product. If they're not, they at least deserve to know that they're not. They should be armed with as much information as possible.</para>
<para>I support the coalition amendments to put back into place the annual member meeting notices and to move them into primary legislation. I think this is an important step as the current regulations, as I have said previously, are not ideal. In amending the regulations, the parliaments had limited time to provide scrutiny before they came into effect ahead of the reporting season. So effectively most of the super funds have reported and have not had to disclose at that level of transparency. When it comes to faith based super, I have real concerns about those sorts of carve-outs and believe that they should be addressed alongside ESG or more ethical focused funds as part of the broader review—and I'm pleased to see the government has introduced an amendment. As we know, the coalition's would have got up on the numbers.</para>
<para>I really think more transparency is crucial when it comes to superannuation. Members deserve to know how much they're paying in fees and how their super company is paying directors and making donations to various bodies, and I will support any measure to increase that transparency.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that schedule 5 stand as printed.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
<para>Original question agreed to.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Under the circumstances, we won't be proceeding with the opposition amendment that's listed, on sheet 1732.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move opposition amendments (1) and (2), on sheet 1733, as circulated in the name of Senator Hume:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 2, page 2 (at the end of the table), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Page 19 (after line 14), at the end of the Bill, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 6 — Annual members' meetings</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Superannuation Industry (Supervision) Act 1993</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 Paragraph 29P(3)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After "the notice", insert "the information required by section 29PAA and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2 Paragraphs 29P(3)(c) and (d)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Before "give the notice", insert "subject to section 29PAB,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 After section 29P</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29PAA Information to be included with notice</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If, under section 29P, the RSE licensee of a registrable superannuation entity is required to give notice of an annual members' meeting for a year of income of the entity to a member of the entity, the following information must be included with the notice:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a short-form summary containing the information set out in subsection (2), which must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) fit on a single page and be the only information on that page; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) be the first page of the pages of information referred to in this section;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a copy of each of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) a summary of each significant event or material change notice (if any) given under section 1017B of the <inline font-style="italic">C</inline><inline font-style="italic">orporations Act 2001 </inline>by a trustee of the entity to a member of the entity during the 2 year period finishing at the end of the year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the remuneration details that, at the time the notice is given, are required to be made publicly available under subsection 29QB(1) of this Act in relation to the entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) if the trustee or trustees of the entity produce an annual report for the entity for the year of income—that report;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) if a determination made under paragraph 52(9)(a) of this Act in relation to the entity is publicly available at the time the notice is given, or must be made publicly available before the meeting is held—a copy of the determination;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) a copy of each of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the most recent periodic statement (if any) given to the member under section 1017D of the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Act 2001</inline>;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the most recent information (if any)given to the member under paragraph 1017DA(1)(a) of the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Act 2001</inline>;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) for each contract (if any) under which one or more payments were made, by or on behalf of the entity during the year of income, where a purpose of each payment was promoting the entity, promoting a particular view on behalf of the entity or sponsorship on behalf of the entity:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the sum of all such payments that have been or are to be made under the contract during any year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the name of each entity to whom such payments have been or are to be made under the contract during any year of income and, for each such entity, the sum of all such payments that have been or are to be made to the entity under the contract during any year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the term of the contract;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) if any gifts (within the meaning of Part XX of the <inline font-style="italic">Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918</inline>) were made, by or on behalf of the entity during the year of income, to another entity who, at the time of receiving the gift:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) was a political entity (within the meaning of that Act); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) was, or was required by that Part of that Act to be, a significant third party (within the meaning of that Part); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) was, or was required by that Part of that Act to be, an associated entity (within the meaning of that Part);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">an itemised list showing each such gift and the name of the entity to whom each gift was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) if any payments were made, by or on behalf of the entity during the year of income, to another entity who, at the time of receiving the payment, was an organisation (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act 2009</inline>)—an itemised list showing each such payment and the name of the entity to whom each payment was made;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) if any payments were made, by the entity (the <inline font-style="italic">main entity</inline>) during the year of income, to any of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) a connected entity of the RSE licensee of the main entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) an associated entity of another entity (the <inline font-style="italic">third party</inline>) if the third party is a connected entity of the RSE licensee of the main entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) an entity over whom the RSE licensee of the main entity has significant influence;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) an entity who has significant influence over the RSE licensee of the main entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) an entity whose key management personnel include the RSE licensee, or an executive officer of the RSE licensee, of the main entity;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) an associated entity of another entity (the <inline font-style="italic">third party</inline>), if the RSE licensee, or an executive officer of the RSE licensee, of the main entity is a member of the key management personnel of the third party;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">an itemised list showing each such payment and the name of the entity to whom each payment was made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 1: Information mentioned in subparagraphs (b)(i), (ii) and (iii) must be made publicly available on the entity's website (see subsection 29QB(1)).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 2: The determination mentioned in paragraph (c) is to be made publicly available on the entity's website within 28 days after the determination is made (see paragraphs 52(9)(b) and (c)).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The short-form summary referred to in paragraph (1)(a) must set out the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the sum of the remuneration referred to in subparagraph (1)(b)(ii), which is to be described as the aggregate remuneration expenditure relating to the entity for the year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the sum of the payments referred to in paragraph (1)(e) that were made during the year of income (under all contracts referred to in that paragraph), which is to be described as the aggregate promotion, marketing or sponsorship expenditure relating to the entity for the year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the sum of the payments referred to in paragraph (1)(f), which is to be described as the aggregate political donations relating to the entity for the year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the sum of the payments referred to in paragraph (1)(g), which is to be described as the aggregate industrial body payments relating to the entity for the year of income;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the sum of the payments referred to in paragraph (1)(h), which is to be described as the aggregate related party payments relating to the entity for the year of income.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Despite subsection (1), if any information (the <inline font-style="italic">extra information</inline>) referred to in paragraph (1)(b) to (h) required to be given to a member of the entity:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) is accessible by the member (including by being publicly available) at the time the notice of the annual members' meeting is given; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) must be made so accessible before the meeting is held;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">it is sufficient for the purposes of that paragraph if the information included with the notice includes details of how to access that extra information.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: The short-form summary referred to in paragraph (1)(a) must still be included.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) In this section:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">associated entity</inline> has the same meaning as in the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Act 2001</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">contract</inline> includes a deed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">key management personnel</inline> has the same meaning as in the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Act 2001</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29PAB How notice is to be given to members</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If, under section 29P, the RSE licensee of a registrable superannuation entity is required to give notice of an annual members' meeting to the members of the entity, the RSE licensee must give the notice by:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) making the notice of the meetingpublicly available on the entity's website; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) ensuring that the notice is readily accessible from the website at least 30 days before the meeting.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 Application of amendments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments made by this Schedule apply in relation to a notice of an annual members' meeting for a year of income for a registrable superannuation entity if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the notice is given on or after the commencement of this item; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the year of income ends on or after 30 June 2022.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government won't be supporting these amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the chamber that the Australian Greens will also not be supporting these amendments. It's our view that the matters dealt with in these amendments are matters best left to regulation, not inserted into legislation.</para>
<para>In recent times, there's been a lot of discussion about the transparency regime for super funds. Senator Pocock has been an active participant in those discussions, and of course that's a good thing. We've got a situation where regulations were introduced by the government post this year's election, and those regulations currently have had two disallowances moved against them—one by me on behalf of the Australian Greens, and one by Senator Lambie. It is strongly the view of the Australian Greens that that is the appropriate forum for discussion and decision, rather than the way forward proposed by these amendments, which is effectively to legislate rather than to regulate.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHA IR: The question before the chair is that amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 1733 standing in the name of Senator Hume, as moved by Senator Smith, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
<para>The CHAIR (13:26): The question now is that the Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022, as amended, be agreed to and that the remaining bills stand as printed.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022, as amended, agreed to.</para>
<para>Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Imposition Amendment Bill 2022 and Income Tax Amendment (Labour Mobility Program) Bill 2022 agreed to.</para>
<para>Treasury Laws Amendment (2022 Measures No. 3) Bill 2022 reported with amendments; Foreign Acquisitions and Takeovers Fees Imposition Amendment Bill 2022 and the Income Tax Amendment (Labour Mobility Program) Bill 2022 reported without amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [13:23]<br />(The Chair—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>34</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>32</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022, National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6917" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6920" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>32</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>32</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a revised explanatory memorandum relating to the bills and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ahead of the election on 21 May the Australian Labor Party pledged that if the Australian people gave us the honour of governing this nation, we would repay their trust by returning integrity, honesty and accountability to government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor told Australians that if we were elected we would legislate a National Anti-Corruption Commission this year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Government is honouring that commitment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Today I introduce legislation to establish a powerful, transparent and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Government takes its commitments seriously.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And we are serious about restoring trust and integrity to government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This legislation delivers the single biggest integrity reform this parliament has seen in decades.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It honours our commitment to Australians in both form and substance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The design principles we announced before the election are the design principles of the bill before the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These design principles were developed with some of Australia's leading integrity advocates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">They were endorsed by the Australian people at the election.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is also pleased they have been endorsed by many crossbench members in the other place and in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government thanks the Joint Select Committee on National Anti-Corruption Commission legislation for its consideration of the Bill. The Government supports all six of the Committee's recommendations to amend the Bill and so moved amendments to implement them. The other place has passed the Bill with those amendments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The National Anti-Corruption Commission</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The National Anti-Corruption Commission will operate independently of government and have broad jurisdiction to investigate serious or systemic corrupt conduct across the Commonwealth public sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will have the power to investigate ministers, parliamentarians and their staff, statutory officer holders, employees of all government entities, and contractors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will have discretion to commence inquiries on its own initiative or in response to referrals from anyone, including members of the public and whistleblowers. Referrals can be anonymous.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will be able to investigate both criminal and non-criminal corrupt conduct, and conduct occurring before or after its establishment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will have the power to hold public hearings.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will also have a mandate to prevent corruption and educate Australians about corruption.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Parliamentary Joint Committee will oversee the Commission and will be empowered to require the Commission to provide information about its performance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Broader integrity reforms</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will form part of Australia's broader integrity framework.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Albanese Government is committed to strengthening this framework to improve standards of integrity across the public sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We have established robust codes of conduct for ministers and ministerial staff and we are working across the Parliament to implement the Set the Standard Report from Sex Discrimination Commissioner Kate Jenkins.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We are committed to enhancing transparency and integrity of political donations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We are also committed to ensuring that Australia has effective protections for whistleblowers. The Attorney-General will be introducing a Bill into Parliament before the end of this year which will make priority amendments to the <inline font-style="italic">Public Interest Disclosure Act 2013</inline> (PID Act). These amendments deliver on the Government's election commitment to implement key recommendations of the 2016 review of the PID Act by Mr Philip Moss AM and other parliamentary committee reports and will ensure immediate improvements are made to the public sector whistleblower scheme before the Commission commences operation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Attorney-General is also working with the Minister for Finance to ensure Commonwealth agencies take measures to prevent, detect and deal with corruption by creating new requirements in the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Rule.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The National Anti-Corruption Commission aims to eliminate corruption in the federal public sphere, and restore trust and transparency in our democratic institutions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be able to investigate serious or systemic corrupt conduct affecting any part of the federal public sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The definition of corrupt conduct is central to the Commission's jurisdiction. It is consistent with key elements of existing definitions at the state and territory level and in the Commonwealth <inline font-style="italic">Law Enforcement Integrity Commissioner Act 2006</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It encompasses conduct by a public official that involves an abuse of office, breach of public trust or misuse of information.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also includes conduct by any person that could adversely affect the honest or impartial exercise of a Commonwealth public official's functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Other conduct that could adversely affect public administration, such as external fraud, will continue to be dealt with by existing integrity agencies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will ensure the Commission is not diverted from its core purpose of tackling serious or systemic corruption.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are well-established and effective arrangements for dealing with fraud and other crimes that affect Commonwealth interests.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, in the last three years, the AFP's dedicated Fraud Command has undertaken 261 investigations into serious or complex frauds, and the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions has prosecuted over 1400 fraud matters referred by the AFP and 30 other agencies in the same period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be the lead Commonwealth agency for the investigation of serious or systemic corruption, and will work in partnership with other agencies that form part of the Commonwealth's broader integrity framework, including the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Public Service Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will have the power to refer corruption issues to other Commonwealth, state and territory agencies for their consideration—for example, where an issue involves broader criminality or official misconduct that falls within the jurisdiction of another independent agency.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission's powers and thresholds for using them</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will have a full suite of powers similar to those of a Royal Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will be able to use its powers to undertake an investigation into a corruption issue if the Commissioner is of the opinion that it could involve serious or systemic corrupt conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the Commission will be able to undertake preliminary inquiries using powers to compel the production of information.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will enable the Commission to determine whether an allegation could be serious or systemic.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be able to hold public hearings in exceptional circumstances and if satisfied it is in the public interest to do so. The default position is that hearings will be held in private.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation provides guidance to the Commission on factors that may be relevant to determining the public interest in holding a public hearing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These factors include any unfair prejudice to a person's reputation, privacy, safety or wellbeing if the hearing were to be held in public.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These factors also include the benefit of making the public aware of corrupt conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reporting</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of an investigation, the Commission will be required to produce a report containing findings and recommendations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will be able to make findings of corrupt conduct, but not of criminal guilt as this is a matter for a court to determine.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Where a public hearing has been held, a report will be tabled in Parliament. Other reports will be published by the Commissioner where that is in the public interest.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Prevention and educat ion functions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation gives the Commission the function of providing education and information about corrupt conduct and preventing that conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will provide guidance and information to support the public sector to understand the concept of corrupt conduct, and to identify and address vulnerabilities to corruption.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This work will be informed by the insights the Commission draws from its investigations and the intelligence it collects about corruption.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will also engage in broader public education about its role, corruption risks, and avenues to report corrupt conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission's independence</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The independence of the Commission will be secured in a number of ways.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be able to conduct investigations on its own initiative or in response to referrals or allegations from any source.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agency heads will be required to report any corruption issue in their agency to the Commission if they suspect it could be serious or systemic.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The appointment of the Commissioner, Deputy Commissioners and the Inspector will be subject to approval by the Parliamentary Joint Committee. The appointees will have limited terms and security of tenure comparable to a federal judge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Oversight of the Commission</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be overseen by a Parliamentary Joint Committee, and an Inspector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Parliamentary Joint Committee will be multi-partisan; comprising 12 members—3 government, 2 opposition and 1 crossbench member from each chamber.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee will be responsible for approving the appointments of the Commissioner, the Deputy Commissioners and the Inspector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee will be able to review and report to both Houses of Parliament on the sufficiency of the Commission's budget. The Committee will also be able to review the Commission's performance and its annual reports.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Inspector will deal with any corruption issues arising in the Commission, complaints about the Commission, and will review and determine the extent of compliance with the law by the Commission when exercising the power to issue a summons or arrest warrant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Protections and safeguards</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation also ensures that there are appropriate safeguards against undue reputational damage, and provides protections for whistleblowers and journalists.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reputational safeguards</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There will be an express ability for the Commissioner to make public statements at any time to avoid damage to a person's reputation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be able to clarify the capacity in which a witness is appearing at a public hearing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reports on investigations will include statements that a person has not engaged in corrupt conduct or is not the subject of any findings, where that is appropriate to avoid damage to the person's reputation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission must afford procedural fairness to individuals or agencies who are the subject of any adverse findings it proposes to include in a report by providing them a reasonable opportunity to respond.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Whistleblower protections</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation provides strong protections for whistleblowers against adverse consequences, including criminal offences and immunities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Public officials making disclosures to the Commission will also be protected under the <inline font-style="italic">Public Interest Disclosure Act 2013</inline> (PID Act).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Attorney-General will be introducing a Bill into Parliament before the end of this year improve whistleblower protections, with the aim of having these reforms in place when the Commission commences operation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Protections for journalists</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The protections for journalists include an exemption from answering questions or providing information that would enable the identity of a source to be ascertained.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Political parties and parliamentarians</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Political parties and activities are an important part of our democracy, and this legislation recognises existing rules for political and parliamentary activities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation makes it clear that the use of public resources to conduct parliamentary business in accordance with the <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Business Resources Act 2017</inline> or the <inline font-style="italic">Members of Parliament (Staff) Act 1984</inline> is not within the Commission's jurisdiction.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also confirms that political activities that do not involve or affect the exercise of powers or functions by a public official, or the use of public resources, cannot constitute corrupt conduct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will only be able to investigate a matter that falls within the jurisdiction of the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (IPEA) or the Australian Electoral Commission (AEC) if IPEA or the AEC refer the matter to the Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Before referring the matter, those authorities would need to form a view that the information raises a corruption issue that could be serious or systemic.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The legislation also expressly preserves parliamentary privilege by providing that it does not affect the powers, privileges or immunities of each House of the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Funding</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Albanese Government has committed substantial funding of $262 million over four years for the establishment and ongoing operation of the Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This funding will ensure the Commission has the staff, capabilities and capacity to triage referrals and allegations it receives, conduct timely investigations, and undertake corruption prevention and education activities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Conclusion</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In conclusion, I would like to acknowledge, on behalf of the Government, the constructive engagement on this Bill from my Cabinet and Caucus colleagues, the Opposition, members of the crossbench in the other place and the Senate; and also acknowledge the efforts of those in the other place who kept up the pressure in the last Parliament, especially the Member for Indi.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With this Bill, the Albanese Government is fulfilling its election commitment to establish a powerful, transparent and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission. In doing so, we have the support of the Australian people. We look forward to the support of this Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Pr ovisions) Bill 2022</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill makes consequential amendments to the Commonwealth statute book to support the establishment of the National Anti-Corruption Commission (the Commission).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill ensures the Commission has key investigative powers, such as the ability to obtain warrants to use surveillance devices and intercept telecommunications when investigating criminal corrupt conduct, consistent with current arrangements for the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government moved amendments in the other place to provide that the Commission's warrants and orders under the <inline font-style="italic">Surveillance Devices Act 2004 </inline>and <inline font-style="italic">Telecommunications (Interception and Access) Act 1979</inline> will be issued by superior court judges. The other place has passed the Bill with those amendments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also ensures information can be shared with and by the Commission under other Acts for the purposes of carrying out its functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill repeals the <inline font-style="italic">Law Enforcement Integrity Commissioner Act 2006</inline>, and provides transitional arrangements for the continuation of investigations and inquiries being conducted by the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity following the establishment of the Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission will be able to complete those investigations or inquiries either under the <inline font-style="italic">Law Enforcement Integrity Commissioner Act 2006</inline>, or under the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill if they could involve corrupt conduct that is serious or systemic.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, this Bill gives the Commission and certain State anti-corruption and investigative commissions access to the industry assistance framework under Part 15 of the <inline font-style="italic">Telecommunications Act 1997</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ability to obtain technical assistance from communications industry participants will support those agencies' exercise of investigative powers to investigate serious, criminal corrupt conduct.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>36</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Iran</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've just come from a hearing into the Iranian regime. What we heard loud and clear is that this government is absolutely useless when it comes to taking action against authoritarian regimes. For them to keep on talking about their concerns and not do anything about it is disgusting. There is a protest going on out the front right now of people calling on this government to do more, to put sanctions against authoritarian regimes.</para>
<para>When we were in government, straight after the invasion of Russia we imposed sanctions on Russian authoritarian members of the Duma and the oligarchs. There are members of the Iranian guard that should have sanctions against them. There are more things the Australian government should be doing. I heard one of my friends that I met in Kyiv earlier this year, Inna Sovsun, talk about how bad the winter is, how she has no heat or electricity. Yet this government won't declare Russia a terrorist state. The EU has, and rightly so.</para>
<para>I call on this government to put sanctions on the Iranian regime. I call on this government to declare Russia a terrorist state in line with international law. There is so much we can do and there is so much that we should do, yet this government is doing nothing. All we hear is rhetoric. All we hear from the Prime Minister and the foreign minister is: 'We're concerned. We condemn this.' But they're taking absolutely no action. People out there, people out the front of Parliament House right now, want this government to take action now.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Wages</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The gig economy is both responding to and shaping our changing world. But, as the economy changes around us, too many workers are being left behind. Indeed, some of the global businesses benefiting most from this change have some of the worst industrial conditions of all, and some aren't just profiting from insecure work; they are actively championing it. Convenience for consumers matters, but not at any cost.</para>
<para>Last Friday was Black Friday, a huge day of spending for consumers around the world. But it was also Make Amazon Pay Day, where workers, unions and activists across our world stood together in the fight for justice and fairness within the gig economy. These workers, in partnerships with their unions like the SDA and the Transport Workers Union back here in Australia, are calling for an end to poor working conditions and low wages, especially for Amazon workers. Workers like Simadeep, a gig economy worker from Adelaide and a proud member of the TWU in South Australia, who recently took the time to share his story with me. Simadeep has worked in the gig economy for over a year because he wanted the flexibility the work might be able to offer him. He decided to try out Amazon Flex, attracted to their promises on working conditions, flexibility and pay. But, after just one shift, these promises have completely fallen apart—and his story is not unique.</para>
<para>The Americanisation of wages and working conditions in Australia cannot be allowed to continue. That's why I'm proud to stand alongside workers and their representatives in the SDA and the Transport Workers Union, who have been working tirelessly to protect all that workers and our union movement have fought for over generations. A secure job with a fair wage does not have to be a thing of the past for Australian workers. No degree of convenience is worth that sort of price.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Construction, Forestry, Maritime, Mining and Energy Union</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the Senate Education and Employment Legislation Committee, experienced union delegates admitted the Albanese government's union-inspired industrial relations legislation will likely increase membership. In South Australia, my home state, yesterday an Adelaide tram rolled past completely wrapped in a CFMMEU slogan—'a union of opportunity'. The membership drive has already begun.</para>
<para>Yes, the unions know the significant change to Australia's industrial relations system is a gift because they imagined it and developed it, and the Albanese government, with the support of Senator David Pocock, will likely deliver it. It is bad for business and bad for workers, with no evidence it will result in higher wages or increased productivity. That matters to South Australia, where the construction industry is a major employer of nearly 75,000 people—equivalent to 8.6 per cent of the total workforce—and contributes $8 billion to gross state product in 2020-21. Adelaide property developers are currently reconsidering large-scale projects, and there's already been picketing of construction sites outlawed under the current legislation. In SA the CFMMEU is the subject of eight new investigations, and the ABCC has issued $1.2 million in penalties in South Australia since 2016.</para>
<para>Trade union membership Australia-wide has been in decline for decades and stands at 14 per cent nationally and in South Australia. Labor governments say they stand for regulation, transparency and women but not, it seems, when it relates to paymasters. During the SA state election the state Labor Party accepted, and then later returned, a CFMMEU donation of some $125,000. In the Senate committee, a union aligned organisation told us it draws the line on accepting donations from the CFMMEU because of its treatment of women. That's a shame for all of us.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to talk on the topic of greenwashing—a word that should have been made the word of the year. It is everywhere. It's in the products that we buy as consumers, it's in the rhetoric we hear from governments and, of course, it's in the annual reports of big corporations. It is literally everywhere.</para>
<para>The reason greenwashing is so prevalent is that Australians and people right around the world know we desperately have to start looking after our environment before we've lost things for good, they know we need to start reducing pollution before our atmosphere and planet are well and truly choked and they know we need to act. They want to be able to use their consumer power to do it, they want to be able to buy products that are genuinely environmentally friendly, they want to back companies that are doing the right thing in terms of sustainability and they want to make sure their governments hear their cries for action when it comes to climate change and protecting the environment.</para>
<para>Consider the spin of what's going on with the Middle Arm project in the Northern Territory—deleting the word 'petrochemicals' on the government's own website to pretend that that project is, indeed, environmentally friendly, when, of course, we know that it's not. Greenwashing is a scourge and it needs to be stopped and it needs to be confronted. Governments needs to act. The ACCC and ASIC both have inquiries into this issue, and I commend them for that. But when will we start to see the regulatory teeth delivered to make sure consumers, voters and people right across the country know they can trust the information that's coming not just from corporations and not just from businesses but from the very government themselves?</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fitzroy Crossing: Petrol Sniffing</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Part of my role running through the Kimberley is working closely with communities throughout the Kimberley, as Senator O'Sullivan would know from my work and his work in Fitzroy Crossing. Fitzroy Crossing has two service stations: Ngiyali Roadhouse on your right-hand side as you're coming in, with BP fuel, owned by the Aboriginal corporation; and Coles Express at the other end, where the fuel comes from Viva. Ngiyali made the decision, working closely with Nindilingarri Cultural Health Services, to stop the sale of 95 unleaded petrol because unfortunately kids were breaking in. I have sat there and watched kids breaking into the pumps to get the fuel. It was very frustrating, because Viva Energy refused a community directive or community request to stop the sale of 95 to save these young kids.</para>
<para>I want to take this opportunity to thank a few people because now we've achieved it. We've worked closely with Anthony Collard and his mob at Nindilingarri; Senior Sergeant Larry Miller from the Fitzroy Crossing police station—Larry, thank you very much for working closely with us; and Victoria Bond from Coles Express. In a magnificent achievement, we've finally shamed Viva into stopping the sale of 95 unleaded. They wanted to use all sorts of different locks. They had all these grand plans about cages. They didn't want to take this product out of Fitzroy Crossing because of the odd tourist who comes through and wants to get 95. As you and I both know, Senator O'Sullivan, they can go to Willare or they can get it from Halls Creek.</para>
<para>Finally common sense prevailed, so congratulations to the Fitzroy community and congratulations Senior Sergeant Larry Miller on your fine work. I'm happy to report that now those bowsers have been removed. I must say, it is very, very comforting and very, very rewarding to know that I don't have to sit there with Larry anymore and look at footage of kids as young as 11 years of age breaking into these bowsers to desperately get their hands on 95 petrol to sniff and I don't have to say that the health consequences will follow. Congratulations to Fitzroy Crossing.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria: Election</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At this morning's national prayer breakfast, a young Queensland servicewoman, a vibrant woman whose name I will post when it comes through, called on our leaders to show the power of love rather than the love of power. Amen to that. We have seen enough love of power these last three years to last a lifetime. Australians in Victoria went to the polls on Saturday to sit in judgement on one of the most controversial of those actions. Good and decent Australians chose not to judge the past and instead to look to the future, and we must accept that decision.</para>
<para>The research and science now underway will decide the truth and consequences of our COVID response. This must be in the context of a royal commission whose politics can be excluded and truth determined. I hope the parties that introduced these measures will have the courage to allow fair and impartial scrutiny, and demonstrate the power of love of the people. No matter the outcome of that royal commission, Australia has a tremendous challenge ahead: to heal the wounds of our COVID response; to tend to the sick, no matter the cause; to unite families divided physically and philosophically; and to put this beautiful country of ours back the way it was so that we can once again call ourselves the lucky country.</para>
<para>The anger at the booths on the weekend and on social media is not helping. The time for vitriol and division is over. One Nation will assist this parliament in framing legislation that makes clear the responsibilities and obligations on each level of government, parliamentary and administrative, the next time our nation is tested. It would be a failure of oversight for the Senate not to sort out the governance. We will offer our vision for bringing Australia back together as a community: a vision to build, to grow and to uplift all who call our beautiful nation home.</para>
<para>One Nation did record a very strong start to our presence in Victoria, and I thank our candidates and supporters for all their hard work. Thank you. We have one flag, we are one community, we are One Nation together.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Veterans: Employment</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Transitioning from defence life to civilian life can be a difficult process. Military service is a unique experience and it brings with it a range of skills that can help our veterans navigate their way through civilian employment. Unfortunately, this practical experience and training does not always translate well into recognised qualifications in the civilian world. A review of defence training establishments found that the training provided there was not in line with civilian training establishments. This means that employment training for many defence members no longer provides the same civilian recognised certificate it used to. For those leaving the ADF the defence RTO can be used free of charge to have their skills recognised, but anyone still serving full-time needs to pay a civilian-run RTO for that service.</para>
<para>With members whose military training has not entirely translated into civilian qualifications, it can be difficult for an employer to understand what those skills mean. In places like Canberra, where military service is a boon in a CV, this isn't much of an obstacle—but Canberra's biting winter is not for everyone. For those who return to a home where the service is not always understood, there are guides that try to translate military skills into plain language. But a decades-long career boiled down to a one-page document doesn't always cut it. To better support the ADF personnel transitioning to the civilian world, more education and resources are needed for employers who may not realise the goldmine that they have in an ex-ADF member looking to join their employment.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Middle East</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People is on 29 November, and I want to express my solidarity with them and acknowledge their inviolable rights. Demonstrating my solidarity matters to me and it matters to many people from my community in Western Australia who hope for peace, justice and an enduring two-state solution. It is easy to despair at the lack of progress towards these goals and at the steep cost to human life, which are felt not only in Palestine but here in Australia as well.</para>
<para>In the West Bank, Palestinian families live under military occupation and all aspects of their lives are controlled. People living in the West Bank should have the right to live in their own homes without the ever-present threat of being forcibly removed, that a bomb will level their home or that they will be subject to a blockade. The arrest and imprisonment of Shadi Khoury is one example that I'd like to draw to the Senate's attention. The 16-year-old boy was arrested on 18 October, taken from his parents without an explanation for his arrest or information about where he was being taken. This is too common for Palestinian families.</para>
<para>Israel is the only country in the world that systemically prosecutes children in military courts that lack fundamental fair-trial rights and protections. Between 500 and 700 Palestinian children face military courts each year. These courts have a 99 per cent conviction rate for Palestinians.</para>
<para>Shadi remains in prison inside Israel, where his parents can't visit him. A 16-year-old child should not be taken and held like this, away from his family. Labor has long supported an enduring, just, two-state solution to the conflict, and I am proud that this government recognises the rights of both Palestine and Israel to exist peacefully as two states with secure and recognised borders.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Assange, Mr Julian Paul</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's the last week of federal parliament. It's the last week of federal parliament under a new Labor Albanese government. Sadly, and frustratingly, Australian Walkley Award winning journalist, publisher and citizen Julian Assange still sits in Belmarsh maximum-security prison in the UK, without having been charged. He's the world's most famous political prisoner. What are we doing to help Julian? The Albanese government have said publicly that he's suffered enough and that this has to come to an end, but what pressure are they exerting on our US and UK allies to release Julian Assange?</para>
<para>Standing in the Australian Senate, I want to say to Julian: we are not giving up the fight for you. If anything, we are ramping it up. I've just come from a parliamentary friends of Assange group meeting with over 35 MPs who are now participating. The movie <inline font-style="italic">Ithi</inline><inline font-style="italic">k</inline><inline font-style="italic">a</inline>, about your amazing father, John Shipton, and your family and their fight for you, is starting to show across cinemas in Germany early next year and across cinemas in the US. The world is waking up to this egregious abuse of power, this injustice. They are waking up to the fact that you only published the truth and that what you published has actually helped us understand the systems and the institutions that we're all part of and has helped the world become a better place. We are not giving up the fight for you, Julian. Stay strong over Christmas. Whether you are in Belmarsh prison or in a US maximum-security prison, we are thinking of you and we are there for you.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, I agree with you. Julian Assange needs to be brought back home.</para>
<para>Australian education is in crisis. We are failing our students. We are failing the next generation. In international testing, the performance of Australian students has been nosediving every year since international testing began, and, frankly, it's not good enough. We are failing to fix a system that is obviously broken.</para>
<para>One of the problems with our schools is that, for too much of every day, students are not engaged in education. Rather, they are engaged in indoctrination. Students are no longer taught how to think but what they should think. They are not being taught to think critically. Our curriculums are crowded with woke programs and alarmist climate indoctrination which have young, impressionable children living in fear of an impending apocalypse that will never come.</para>
<para>Australia also has some of the most disruptive classrooms in the world, with one recent study finding that, on student behaviour, we rank 70 out of 77 countries in the OECD. What we need to do, or should do, is take a leaf out of the book of Katharine Birbalsingh, who has been dubbed Britain's strictest headmistress. She turned a school for some of London's poorest students into one of the UK's stand-out success stories. She created a culture where staff are not only respected but students are performing at an above-average level compared to other similar schools.</para>
<para>What is the secret? It is instilling good old-fashioned values and strict discipline, and, most importantly, implementing a back-to-basics curriculum and an insistence that children behave courteously and work hard. We can turn around our education system, have better outcomes and return to the top of the class if we just go back to basics.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>South Australia: Floods</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak about the rising floodwaters currently impacting my home area of the Riverland in South Australia. Modelling shows that the floods that are about to hit the Riverland are likely to be the highest water levels we've seen in over 50 years, in fact the highest water levels we've seen since 1956.</para>
<para>I would like to acknowledge the efforts of the community, the SES, the councils—of all of the people in the Riverland, including our very hard-working local member Tim Whetstone—as they prepare for the flows that are going to inundate our communities over the summer period. Everybody in the Riverland is going to be impacted in some way by these events, from the families who have riverfront shacks; the tourism operators like the caravan parks, who will not be able to access their fantastic summer trade, as the skiers won't be able to come up to the caravan parks; to the primary producers and irrigators, who are likely to be without power for that period; the small business owners, who are still only just recovering from the impacts of COVID; and those that will be impacted by road closures, making it difficult for them to get to and from work.</para>
<para>That's why it's so important, as we prepare for this serious event, that we make sure that tourists to the Riverland are still encouraged to visit. Despite the media reporting, it is still safe to visit this really beautiful part of my home state of South Australia. It is an incredible time for them to be visiting. Now is a once in a lifetime opportunity to witness the river come alive. With water flows at record highs our whole river system is flourishing with wildlife. You can also visit the local wineries, the breweries and the distilleries, and indulge in the spectacular Riverland produce, which is never better than it is during our summer period. You can also enjoy a fantastic climate. As much as this is a spectacle, we also need to respect it. Please come to the Riverland and enjoy it this summer.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania: Housing</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It has been three years since I had Tasmania's housing debt waived. I haven't regretted my decision for a minute. I do believe that we need to go back and look at the stage 3 tax cuts. If I had to do it all over again I would. The deal was that the $157 million saved from the housing debt had to go back into housing in Tasmania. I thought I should give you an update on what that money has done so far. I also want to thank former Premier Gutwein. I want to thank the state housing minister, Guy Barnett, for giving me these details, as he does every three months.</para>
<para>So far $58.4 million has been spent and it's helped to build or support over 300 homes in Tasmania. The money has purchased 32 units in Glenorchy for supported accommodation. There's the construction of 23 new crisis accommodation units for young people in Burnie. Over $7 million has gone towards buying land for future housing developments and supporting affordable housing projects. Two million dollars has gone to the Private Rental Incentives Program to help more Tasmanians get into affordable housing. This money has made a huge difference in Tasmania. There is still more money to go.</para>
<para>But I also know that our housing crisis is as bad as ever. My office receives calls from people who are homeless every single day. We are under no illusion about this. People are sleeping in their tents or in their cars or couch surfing. There are people sleeping rough who can easily afford rent but there's just nothing available.</para>
<para>The federal government says they have a goal to build one million new homes. We have no idea what that plan is or when the building will start. The federal Minister for Housing is Julie Collins, from Tasmania. I haven't seen her stand up and give the public, or Tasmanians, any answers on what this policy looks like. Seriously, if you could stand up, give Tasmanians some relief, tell us how many houses are getting built, when they are going to be built and who is building them that would be great. It might give us a little bit more stability down there and show you're actually bloody serious.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Domestic and Family Violence</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Each year, for the past decade, the Counting Dead Women Australia researchers of Destroy the Joint have documented the deaths of women killed by violence. Their interrogation of media, police and court reports gives us the only real time toll of gendered violence. Their work keeps a spotlight on the epidemic of violence to make sure that we do not forget the names of those who have been killed. This is harrowing work that should be done by the government.</para>
<para>Shamefully 40 women have been killed by violence so far this year. Almost all of these women were killed by someone they knew. This is a confronting national crisis, and we must not look away. We need cultural change to achieve gender equality, full funding of frontline response and prevention services, and respectful relationships and consent education in all schools.</para>
<para>Today, I honour the memory of the women killed by violence in 2022: Vitorina Bruce, Sheena Fairfield, Emily Thompson, Christine Barker, Nardia Louise Spice, Louise Hughes, Barbara Willshire, Susan Duffy, Lametta Fadlallah, Amneh al-Hazouri, Tania Trickey, Florrie 'Kory' Reuben, Eileen Liu, Maree Schwarz, an unnamed 82-year-old woman, Shereen Kumar, an unnamed 33-year-old woman, a woman known as AK, Cheryl Johnson, Shirley Kidd, Feebie McIntosh, Donna Howe, Chen Cheng, Danielle Jordan, an unnamed 47-year-old woman, Linda Simon, MacKenzie Anderson, an unnamed 26-year-old woman, Susan Walker, Sharyn Simonds, Kylie Griffiths, Synamin Bell, an unnamed 52-year-old woman, Vanessa Godfrey, Angela Huata, Arnima Hayat, Christine Stephan, Krishna Chopra, Poonam Sharma and an unnamed 45-year-old woman. They are 40 women killed by a current or former partner. That is 40 too many. We need to eradicate this scourge of violence against women.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rostrum Voice of Youth</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Standing up in front of people and talking, whether it is for a job interview, lecture or conference, or even here in this chamber, can be daunting. The speaker must be calm, confident and articulate. For some, though, these skills do not come easily. Speaking well can make or break a situation, and this skill is becoming increasingly important for employers when evaluating potential employees on soft skills like leadership, communication and problem solving. To this end, I would like to highlight the work of Tasmania Rostrum, which works with people of all ages in my home state to improve their public speaking skills. They are high school and university students, employees, retirees, people for whom English is a second language and even aspiring politicians, all who want to improve their ability to communicate with others. There are seven Rostrum clubs in Tasmania—three in Hobart, two in Launceston and two in Burnie. They are part of Rostrum Australia, an association of 95 public speaking clubs around the country that was founded in 1930.</para>
<para>Earlier this year, two young Tasmanians competed in the 2022 Rostrum Voice of Youth national final in Sydney. Isabel Adams from the Friends' School in Hobart was a junior finalist, while Oscar Tiernan from Launceston College competed in the senior section and was named runner-up. The Voice of Youth competition attracts more than 3,000 students every year from over 500 schools, so Oscar's achievement is an incredible result. Well done, Oscar. Isabel and Oscar illustrate how Tasmania is punching above its weight in this area. Every human being needs to communicate and be understood. Our ability to speak clearly and with confidence is essential for day-to-day conversation and interaction. If you have the opportunity to become part of a club or a community like Rostrum that teaches you a valuable life skill, no matter your age, then it's an opportunity worth pursuing.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations: Qantas</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise in solidarity with Teri O'Toole and the Flight Attendants Association. Last week, more than a thousand Qantas domestic flight attendants voted on whether to take industrial action. A resounding 99 per cent voted yes. Qantas flight attendants have suffered a four-year pay freeze. After inflation, they have taken a massive real wage cut. They were furloughed during the pandemic but stuck with Qantas. Their average annual pay is just $48,000—just $48,000 to be the first and only responders to all in-cabin emergencies; just $48,000 to be working at all times of the day and night across time zones; and just $48,000 to miss school runs, birthdays and family functions. I challenge anyone in this chamber, or on the Qantas board, to support their families on an income of $48,000 a year. With all credit to the SDA, you make more stacking shelves at Woolworths.</para>
<para>But what does Qantas offer them? Their offer is longer hours with a shorter rest break between shifts and a below-inflation pay rise for future payments of just three per cent. This is a slap in the face when Qantas just announced it would make a record half-year profit of $1.4 billion. That's a lovely Christmas bonanza for Alan Joyce and his shareholders and a fat lump of coal for Qantas flight attendants. So, for anyone wondering how the brilliant Qantas leadership made so much profit this year, here's your answer: it's been snatched out of the hands of working mums and dads, who are struggling to keep a roof over their heads this Christmas.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>41</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations, Senator Watt. I refer the minister to an answer he gave in question time last Thursday, when he suggested that one of Australia's most respected business advocacy groups, the Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry, was misleading its members and was wrong. Has the minister himself reached out to ACCI in order to address the issues outlined in question time?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Duniam. Well, hasn't it been a bad weekend to be a Liberal? It's been a bad weekend to be a Liberal. We've had the Victorian election result, all those claims about—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator D</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam President—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Fifteen seconds!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam President—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Senator Duniam, I can't hear you for the noise in the chamber. Senator Duniam.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam President, a point of order on relevance. I appreciate Senator Watts's observing of the weekend's events. I had a question about a question he answered last Thursday.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Yes. I will direct the minister to the question. Please move to the question, thank you, Senator Watt.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and the Minister for Emergency Management, I will admit that speaking to ACCI has not been my highest priority, because we have other ministers who have direct contact with them. But what I will say is that I have been having a lot of contact with stakeholders in my portfolio lately. One of the things they keep saying to me is that they are incredibly relieved to finally have a government that is prepared to actually get out there and listen to them on issues like agriculture, fisheries, forestry and emergency management, rather than National Party or Liberal Party ministers that used to walk in, lecture them and tell them how things were going to be without actually listening. So I'm very happy to talk about the relationships I've got with stakeholders in my portfolios.</para>
<para>But, as I was saying, it has been a bad weekend to be a Liberal, especially in Victoria. I don't know how Senator Henderson must be feeling after all the carry-on that we saw from Senator Henderson in the weeks leading up to the election. But it wasn't just the Victorian election that made it a bad weekend to be a Liberal. We had more revelations about former Prime Minister Scott Morrison and all those tricks he played.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, you have drifted. I would draw your attention back to the question, thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Sen</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President; I respect your ruling. I thought I had addressed the question by talking about the fact that I'd been concentrating on speaking to stakeholders in my portfolios rather than stakeholders in other portfolios.</para>
<para>What is probably going to be hardest for the Liberal Party to accept this week is that the decade of low wages that they presided over is finally at an end, because we have reached agreement with Senator David Pocock as to our policies about industrial relations, and they are going to get wages moving again—something that we know certain employer groups don't want to support, and we certainly know the Liberal Party doesn't want to support. But those days are over, wages are going to get moving again, and that's going to be good for business too. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Duniam, first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let's try and come back to what I was asking about. I refer again to the minister's answer of last Thursday, where he queried, 'So are ACCI telling us they're opposed to a wage rise?' followed by a sarcastic comment where he said 'shock, horror'. Does the minister agree that it's extraordinary for a cabinet minister to so petulantly attack a key stakeholder about their concerns about job creation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I don't think it would be a surprise to anyone that one of Australia's largest employer groups would not be particularly keen on reforms to an industrial relations system which offers workers the chance of a pay rise. We know that a lot of employer group supported the former government's industrial relations legislation, and that's okay—they're entitled to their view. It would hardly be surprising that the union movement is supportive of laws being changed so that workers can actually get a pay rise. So we are totally unapologetic about the fact that we are bringing in laws that will bring to an end the decade of deliberate low wage growth that was at the centre of the former government's economic policy. We understand there will be some people who won't be happy about it. We understand there will be millions of workers in Australia who will be very happy about the fact that we finally have a government that is prepared to put their interests first and give them the pay rise they've been waiting for over a decade to enjoy.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Duniam, your second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the minister has just confirmed that that's the intent of what he said, will the minister now apologise to ACCI and to its members for his anti-employer and anti job creator rant last week?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If there's one group of people who should be apologising when it comes to industrial relations, it's the Liberal Party of Australia. They should be apologising for the decade of low wage growth that they forced upon every single working Australian in this country. They should also apologise for the low productivity that was delivered to business as a result of their conflict driven, anti-agreement policies that actually hurt the interests of workers and businesses.</para>
<para>I predict this week is the week when the full reality of the federal election defeat is going to finally hit home for the Liberal party. They are finally waking up to the fact that their decade of low wages is coming to an end, because they lost the election and they lost it to a government that had a central platform of getting wages moving again. We are going to deliver on the mandate we received from the Australian people to get wages moving again. I know it's going to be very, hard for the Liberal Party, especially those from the state of Victoria after the weekend they had, but every worker is counting on us delivering this, and we're going to do it.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Wages</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. The Albanese Labor government went to the federal election with a commitment to get wages moving after a decade of neglect by the Liberals and Nationals. How will the government's industrial relations policy agenda benefit Australian workers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you to Senator Sheldon for the question. I thank him and many on this side for their continued commitment to ensuring Australian workers get a decent share, both before they were in the parliament and subsequently. We have a different view from those opposite about the importance of getting wages moving again.</para>
<para>The reality is, as Senator Sheldon outlined in his question, that for 10 years Australia had a government for whom low wages were a deliberate design feature of the Australian economy. They've never resiled from that. They didn't resile from it in the federal election campaign, where they opposed a dollar wage increase, and they don't resile from it now. They continue to argue that ensuring that Australian workers get a decent share of the economic benefits that this nation produces is somehow a disaster for the Australian economy.</para>
<para>Well, we on this side have a different view, and so, too, do so many working people across Australia. With our IR policy and legislation, we are making a choice—a choice to end the era of deliberate wage stagnation, a choice to get wages moving again, a choice to work to close the gender pay gap and to take long-overdue steps to put gender equity at the heart of our workplace laws, a choice to improve job security, and a choice to wind up those institutions established with nothing more than a political agenda to promote conflict. It is a bill and policy agenda that will help real people and workers across this country who for too long who have paid the price of the coalition's view that we weren't allowed to get wages moving again in this country.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, your first supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline how the government's industrial relations policy agenda will benefit Australian businesses?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Those on the other side want to try to distract attention from the fact that they actually don't want wages to increase, as demonstrated by the last 10 years. They have focused a lot on small business and a lot on a scare campaign which Senator Watt has very effectively shot down in this chamber.</para>
<para>I would remind those opposite that rates of bargaining for small businesses have dropped by over 60 per cent between 2010 and this year—that was under you. Unlike you, we think it's a good thing to support small business participating in bargaining if they want to. Why? Because bargaining can help make a business more productive and flexible. That's why we have the co-operative workplaces bargaining stream, which is especially relevant to small business. It ensures that business can opt in to relevant agreements negotiated by their industry associations. Of course, we will provide funding to the Fair Work Commission to provide small business bargaining support. You pretend to be the friends of small business— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline how the government's industrial relations policy agenda will benefit the Australian economy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Our legislation and our approach makes gender equity an objective of the Fair Work Act, bans pay secrecy clauses in employment contracts, creates two expert panels in the commission to deal with pay equity and the care and community sector, ensures that employers have a duty to prevent sexual harassment, makes the sexual harassment dispute process fairer and more effective, empowers the Fair Work Commission to settle disputes over flexible work requests by arbitration if necessary, prohibits the advertising of jobs at below legal minimum wages and, importantly, does what 18 out of 26 OECD countries do, which is to prioritise multi-employer bargaining.</para>
<para>Those opposite seem to think the sky will fall down. You're behind the OECD, and the reason so many of our competitor economies are going down this path is that it's good for productivity and it's good for co-operation. We want to get wages moving again. You are stuck in the 10 years of wage stagnation— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation</title>
          <page.no>44</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. Minister, I refer to the Prime Minister's comments on 2 September 2022. When asked whether there would be a new mining tax, he said, 'No, that's not on the agenda.' Minister, can you guarantee that Labor will not implement any new mining tax?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for the question. I don't know everything that the Prime Minister said going back to 2 September, but I know he has been consistent in his language in that regard. That is what he's been saying. That is certainly the position of the government. But can I just say that we are a mature and responsible government that's dealing with very significant increases in prices for energy and an energy system that is creaking and collapsing under the weight of a decade of inaction from those opposite—22 failed energy policies, never landed one of them; the power was going to go out pretty much the day we took office. Since then we've had supply shortages, we've got cost escalation, and the member for Hume hid an increase in prices. So, we are dealing with and trying to clean up the complete and total shambles we inherited.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Se</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance: I specifically asked: can she guarantee there will be no mining tax?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is being relevant to your question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I did answer the question up front. The government has no plans for a mining tax. The Prime Minister has been very clear on that. The Treasurer has been clear on that. But, for the information of those opposite, the government is in the area of energy—which I think has been linked to questions around tax increases—cleaning up a complete and total mess that you left us. That's the reality. Everyone knows it. That's the work that we are doing and that we will continue to do whilst we are in government. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I refer to revelations on 11 November 2022 that your cabinet was considering implementing a mining tax. Does this mean the Prime Minister is considering breaking his promise?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I don't know where that comment has come from, and I don't speak about matters that are being discussed in cabinet. But I refer you to my previous answer that I just gave you around the Prime Minister and his commitments. And we are not a government that breaks promises.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interj ecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I'm waiting for quiet, so I can call the minister back to answer her question. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We deliver on our commitments and we deliver on our promises. It's why we've delivered an increase in the minimum wage; it's why we held the Jobs and Skills Summit; it's why we're cleaning up the aged-care mess; it's why we passed the climate change bill; it's why we're debating the National Anti-Corruption Commission legislation later this week; it's why we passed laws for cheaper child care; it's why the budget had making medicines cheaper; and it's why we passed paid domestic and family violence leave. It's because we are a government that delivers on our commitments—every single one of them. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a second supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, Labor looks like it has broken its promise of ruling out a mining tax. Labor has broken its promise on a $275 cut in electricity prices. Labor has broken its promise on multi-employer bargaining. How many more promises will you break?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're a government that keeps all of our commitments, and I will continue to go through them. You are wrong—you are wrong in the assertion in your question. It's simply wrong. We have abolished the cashless debit card; we've started the work on an Indigenous voice to parliament; we've got the plan to end violence against women; we're investing in the NBN; we've got the Women's Economic Equality Taskforce—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We have not stopped. Every single day we come to work is to implement the commitments we took to the Australian people to make Australia a better place for people, to fix up the mess, the destruction and the disarray, and to build back trust in government after nine years of your systemic failures in almost every single area of government responsibility.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Media Ownership</title>
          <page.no>45</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Communications, Senator Watt. Following the result of the Victorian election and the disgraceful performance of sections of the Murdoch media, will the government now act on the issue of media diversity in Australia and, in particular, its importance for a robust democracy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson-Young. Well, I do think that the Victorian election showed that there were a number of commentators on the state of Victorian politics who got it completely wrong. Some of them are sitting in every aisle opposite us. Some of them are sitting in certain media outlets in Victoria, which waged a four-year campaign against the Andrews government, promoting hysteria and promoting conspiracy theories with the people who are the noisiest now.</para>
<para>An opposition senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, we do live in a free country. Do you know what? Some people are free to get it wrong. And you have got it wrong, year after year after year, about the issues the Victorian people are concerned about.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson-Young, as you are aware, our government does have a position of supporting diverse media ownership. I'm sure that the minister responsible has discussed these matters with you. But I think that in general terms the Victorian state election again showed that some media outlets, along with some members of parliament, actually need to get out into the real world and listen to what real people have to say about these issues rather than just occupying their own echo chamber. We have seen some members of the Liberal and National parties, federally and Victorian, operate very closely with some of those media outlets. What they demonstrated is that they were grossly out of touch with people in Victoria, just as they demonstrated that in the recent federal election and in a range of other elections as well.</para>
<para>So I do hope that the Victorian state election is a very big wake-up call for a number of media outlets, as it should be also for members on the other side. Otherwise, they're going to keep drifting down the out-of-touch path that they seem to be intent on taking.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, your first supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Does the minister agree that sections of the Murdoch media were in fact in breach of their own Australian Press Council rules? The rules state that the media should:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Ensure that factual material in news reports and elsewhere is accurate and not misleading, and is distinguishable from other material such as opinion.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Hanson-Young. Of course we believe it is important for all media outlets to separate what is fact from opinion, and there is an important role for the media to make sure that, when they are reporting what are supposed to be facts, they demonstrate the facts and do put out the facts. When they want to have something to say in an opinion piece, then go for your life, but there shouldn't be a blurring of the two. Unfortunately, we have seen occasions where that distinction has been blurred. That's not in the interests of the media in Australia, and I don't think it's in the interests of good public commentary about debate.</para>
<para>It's not really for me, as a representing minister, to judge whether particular outlets may have breached media codes, but I would say, very strongly, to all media outlets, no matter who they are, that the public expects that media codes be followed and that factual information will be presented in a non-opinion form, leaving opinion pieces for their rightful place in our democracy, but not blurring them with fact. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, your second supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the Press Council clearly can't enforce its standards, given Australian media is more concentrated than any other comparable market and given the overt political role that some sections of the Murdoch media play, will the government hold an inquiry with the powers of a royal commission into to media diversity, including the Murdoch press, as recommended by some of your own senators, by former Prime Minister Kevin Rudd and by some of your own Labor branches?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson-Young. As I was saying in my original answer, the Albanese government does support a diverse and sustainable media sector, and we recognise that quality news and public interest journalism plays an important role in the functioning of Australian society and democracy. It is essential to informing local communities. Labor has long acknowledged and voiced concerns about the level of media concentration in Australia, which is why the Albanese Labor government is focused on supporting and fostering diversity in our media.</para>
<para>It's also why the government has affirmed a clear position that a royal commission or judicial inquiry into media concentration is not the way forward for media policy. There have already been multiple reviews and inquiries into the media and public interest journalism over the past decade, yet the recommendations from these processes have not been properly addressed. Rather than holding another inquiry, we need to be outcomes focused in implementing the backlog of recommendations that already exist.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender Equality: Workplace Relations</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is for the Minister of for Women. Can the minister inform the Senate on how the government's policy settings in workplace relations and gender equality are benefiting Australian women?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for her question and for her years of representing low-paid workers, in particular women, through her service in the labour and union movement.</para>
<para>This government is committed to gender equality—not as an afterthought because we have a women problem—but because we understand gender equality as a core economic imperative that benefits all of us. This government recognises that there are structural challenges to achieving gender equality that need structural responses. There's been a decade of ignoring these structural barriers to gender equality, and women have been bearing the cost, including through lower pay, poor conditions and chronic labour shortages in feminised sectors.</para>
<para>We are getting on with the job of fixing this through our workplace relations settings, investments in cheaper childcare, modernising PPL schemes, reforms to close the gender pay gap and investments to end violence against women. These are structural reforms to fix the systems that are not working in the interests of women.</para>
<para>We're putting gender equality at the centre of workplace relations by making gender equality and job security objects of the Fair Work Act and strengthening access to flexible working arrangements. We will also establish a Pay Equity Expert Panel and a Care Community Sector Expert Panel in the Fair Work Commission. We will increase pay transparency by prohibiting pay secrecy clauses and strengthening gender pay gap reporting. We will prohibit sexual harassment under the Fair Work Act—a recommendation of the <inline font-style="italic">Respect@Work</inline> report, which we are implementing in full. While our workplace relations reforms will lift women's wages, our investment in cheaper child care will make early childhood education and care more accessible, and our PPL reforms will give families more choice when caring for their youngest family members.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister update the Senate on how these policy settings will drive wages growth with women in low-paid, feminised industries?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>These important reforms will provide greater access to bargaining for workers in lower-paid and highly feminised sectors—workers like Jane, who has been an early childhood educator for 40 years. She works at East Brunswick Kindergarten and Childcare Centre. She is incredibly passionate about her job, but it's been a tough industry to dedicate her life and career to. There are constant struggles with staffing shortages due to low wages and conditions in the sector. Jane and her staff, along with workers in 70 other centres in Victoria, benefit from being part of a multi-employer agreement. They've won wages increases of 15 to 18 per cent above the award, and, just as important, they've won things like more time for planning and professional development, which delivers better quality care for the children they are providing care to.</para>
<para>The process is currently drowning in red tape, and it shouldn't be that hard. Directors in these centres are usually educators, not workplace relations or HR professionals. We are making it easier for people like Jane to get better pay.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister please update the Senate on why this policy agenda is so critical to improving conditions that will benefit women?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for the question. Achieving economic equality for women requires reforms to improve working conditions as well as pay. We are amending the Fair Work Act to provide stronger access to flexible working arrangements. Women are twice as likely as men to request flexible work arrangements, but the reform is not just important for women; this will help families to share those work and caring responsibilities, which is critical to driving gender equality. Currently an employee can ask for flexible work arrangements, but if their employer says 'no' they've got nowhere to go. The reforms we're looking at will bring employers and employees together in workplaces in the first instance to resolve requests and give the Fair Work Commission the power to resolve the dispute if needed.</para>
<para>In addition, we are prohibiting sexual harassment under the Fair Work Act. This complements reforms to the Sex Discrimination Act that passed this place last Friday. Along with the implementation of paid family and domestic violence leave, our reforms will make workplaces safer and more flexible for women.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Renewable Energy</title>
          <page.no>47</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy, Senator Wong. With the large-scale penetration of renewables into the national grid over the past 20 years coinciding with energy costs for Australian households and businesses rising by 300 per cent or more over the same period, is the Albanese government telling Australians the truth when it says renewables are cheaper?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson, for the question. Yes, we are. It's not simply our assessment; it's the assessment of those involved in the energy markets, and those assessments are public. It is the case that the lack of policy certainty over the last decade has meant we have seen an increase in energy prices, combined with the international circumstances we see, which are well known to everyone in this chamber, including the war on Ukraine and the way in which energy supplies are being utilised as part of that, essentially—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Don't blame the war in Ukraine!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, with respect, it's not simply me saying this; this is what global markets are saying. This is what developed economies around the world are saying. If you go to Europe and you understand what is occurring in Europe and what is occurring in global markets, it is affecting Australia's energy costs, as costs are being affected around the world.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick—a bit of economic irrationality over there, fair enough! The reality is the market is not where you are. Senator Hanson, we deeply appreciate how difficult the increase in energy costs is for Australian households.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry; I don't know how to respond to the interjection from Senator Rennick! We understand how difficult it is. The government is very seized of this. I would make the point to you that a rational position that was in place over so many years under those opposite meant that we saw supply exit the system, and we know if supply exits the system what happens to price. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I call Senator Hanson for her first supplementary, I remind senators on both sides this is crossbench time. They get limited opportunity, and interjections are disorderly. I would appreciate Senator Hanson having the benefit of hearing Minister Wong's responses in quiet. Senator Hanson, a first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, I don't accept your answer to the question and neither do a lot of Australians, because the war in Ukraine only just started this year and energy costs have been going up for years. My question is: with domestic energy costs predicted to increase by up to 56 per cent over the next two years as more renewables come online and more coal fired plants are closed ahead of time, will the Albanese government apologise to the Australian people for falsely claiming it would reduce household energy bills by $275 per year?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, we are seeking to deal with what is happening in global energy markets and what is happening in the domestic energy markets, and we inherited, as you will recall, a price increase for which the policy response was simply the former minister, Mr Taylor, hiding a price increase prior to the next election. We inherited a system which saw four gigawatts of dispatchable capacity leave the system with only one gigawatt coming in.</para>
<para>In relation to the point about renewables, the CSIRO, in their report in July 2022, forecast that by 2030 electricity produced by solar PV would be two-thirds cheaper than black coal and over 80 per cent cheaper than nuclear, and wind generation would be 50 per cent cheaper than black coal and 80 per cent cheaper than nuclear. The reason the market has not invested in more coal fired power is because the market is looking at the same predictions that I have just outlined to you. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Maybe they're not looking into it because the government is shutting coal down in Australia. Considering that no human being in history has ever led a carbon-neutral existence, will the minister please explain to the Senate and the Australian people how the Albanese government's policies to bring in more than 250,000 immigrants every year are consistent with its policy to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by 43 per cent by 2030?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, we do think that responsible levels of migration are consistent with economic growth. We also believe that renewables are demonstrably a cheaper energy source than those which I have outlined—so coal and nuclear—which explains market behaviour over this last decade. It is the case we will have to transform our economy, and we will have to ensure that we, both, reduce what we put into the atmosphere and offset that which we cannot reduce. In that regard, the position the Albanese government is putting is where the mainstream economies of the world are. It is where the majority of the global economies are, and— <inline font-style="italic">(</inline><inline font-style="italic">Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Health Care</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing Minister for Health and Aged Care, Senator Gallagher. The Distribution Priority Area classification system has been crucial in supporting the movement of general practitioners to rural, regional and remote areas to address workforce shortages. However, the Albanese government's decision to expand the DPA means that outer metropolitan areas now have the same priority status as rural and remote parts of the country, where critical GP shortages are being felt the hardest. The Rural Doctors Association of Australia has stated that this policy change 'will cost lives of rural and remote patients who already suffer poorer health outcomes'. Can the minister please explain what advice formed the basis of your government's decision to expand the DPA classifications and whether you consulted with the RDAA, whose members are the ones most impacted by this decision?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Ruston for the question. I will come back to the chamber on the specifics of the minister's engagement and consultations, but I can say that I know that Minister Butler consults very widely and is working very closely with general practice and groups representing particular arms of general practice, or health care broadly, as he works through the reforms that we want to implement. On the program around the designated status, or distribution priority, areas, we have expanded that because there are shortages in a whole range of areas. That's the reality.</para>
<para>Primary care is under enormous stress, and there are workforce shortages in outer metropolitan areas, in metropolitan areas and in rural and regional areas for sure. That is why in October there was a response to rural and regional health in the budget, which had a specific measure, a rural general practice package, to make sure there are innovative models of care being trialled across rural general practice, to make sure there are more training placements under the John Flynn program and to look at extra incentives for doctors and nurses to go into and work in rural and regional areas. We're looking at this across the board. Yes, there are enormous pressures in rural and regional areas. There are enormous pressures in primary care. You talk to any GP at the moment and they will tell you how hard it is with workforce, how they run their businesses and the pressure that we are trying to respond to through the strengthening Medicare fund and some of the other responses—the urgent-care clinics, as well—that are all designed to assess general practice. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Warrumbungle Shire Council stated that your government minister's decision to expand the DPA classifications will likely mean people in rural and remote communities will have to travel hundreds of kilometres to receive medical attention. When asked in budget estimates whether the government had consulted with rural, regional and remote communities before making this decision on DPA classifications, Senator McCarthy said no. Minister, can you confirm that the Albanese government did not consult with these communities before making these decisions?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've already said I will come back on the specifics of the consultation, but I do know that we've got the Strengthening Medicare Taskforce, and there's a range of consultative mechanisms that Minister Butler has put in place to deal with the pressures that we inherited from your term in government. The reality is that you don't have a primary care crisis happen over two months. This has been building for years. The workforce shortages have been building for years. We had an inquiry that, I think, Senator Green chaired—you chaired it, didn't you, Senator Green?—into this specific matter, which made recommendations in order to deal with some of the pressures that were experienced on your watch. There is more to do, but we also have to deal with workforce shortages in other areas of the country. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When asked in question time in the House about the number of rural towns that have lost a GP because of the decision of your government to change the DPA classifications, Minister Butler refused to answer the question. Does Minister Butler know the number of rural towns that have been negatively impacted by this decision? If not, why not?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The decision is about creating additional workforce—that is behind the decision, right?—so that these other areas that are having trouble attracting GPs are able to work through the program. Yes, we accept that there are significant workforce shortages in rural and regional areas—and it's not just GPs but a whole range of health workers—but we also have them in other areas of the country, and we need to respond to that as well. Part of the reason we are putting in the urgent-care clinics; the $220 million grants program for GPs to put in place supports in their practices to help meet some of the pressures they are seeing, plus some of the other incentive programs is to come at this from a number of different ways. There is no silver bullet. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment</title>
          <page.no>49</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister and also the climate and environment ministry, Senator Wong. Today, a report from the Climate Council and Emergency Leaders for Climate Action reported that the Queensland floods earlier this year cost nearly $8 billion, and extreme weather events over the past year have cost Australian households an average of $1,532. The report says we need deep cuts to emissions this decade to avoid climate catastrophe, something that cannot happen if more coal and gas projects are approved. Rather than propping up coal and gas projects with fossil fuel subsidies, this government should be addressing the cost of living and preparing communities for future disasters. When will the government cancel the $47.2 billion of public money it's giving in subsidies to the fossil fuel sector?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you to Senator Waters for a very lengthy question. It was a lengthy question; that's alright. She's entitled to a full minute, and I'll—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They're very touchy, aren't they! They had a bad Saturday night.</para>
<para>Senator, this is a variation on a question that you and your colleagues have asked on a number of occasions. What I would say to you is: (1) we agree with the need to make reductions in the emissions Australia produces. That is a position that I have been arguing, and the Labor Party has been arguing, for many years. We sought to implement that in government. We fought for that in opposition over nine years, and I am pleased, as I'm sure many people across Australia are, that we not only have a government who wants to act on climate but have a parliament that wishes to act on climate.</para>
<para>I think all of those points go back to some of the points you raise. I think the question is: what is your diagnosis, or your assertion, about the test to deal with that? We believe the test is as set by the UNFCCC and as agreed amongst the international community, which is economies over time will make reductions in their emissions, will reduce the emissions they produce. That is why we have an election commitment to a 43 per cent reduction by 2030, which will see the overwhelming majority of energy in the energy sector coming from renewable sources.</para>
<para>I appreciate that the Greens have a different view. I trust they also have a fiscal position that they're prepared to take which reflects that in terms of the revenue to the Australian economy by those sectors. But, unlike you, we're not going to target workers and one industry. We are going to reduce, over time— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week, in a case taken by Youth Verdict, the Land Court of Queensland recommended rejection of Clive Palmer's Waratah Coal Wandoan mine. The Land Court found that the mine's contribution to climate change and cultural harm outweighed any economic benefit. Will the environment minister apply the same reasoning when assessing the 114 coal and gas projects currently before her and reject those damaging projects?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That question is actually not in the climate portfolio, as you'd know, but in the environment portfolio. But I'm happy to respond to it.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Payne. I'm aware of that. Under the standing orders, we also don't switch portfolios mid-question, but that's fine; I'm happy to take the question.</para>
<para>The response is—as I've previously said, Senator Waters—obviously, for those matters that are before Ms Plibersek, or whomever has held that portfolio at any time over the past years, those are matters that the minister would exercise in accordance with the statutory discretion. As you know, our view is that any project has to stack up environmentally and, clearly, economically. I think the reality is, over time, the global markets will reduce the amount of consumption from fossil fuels. I think that is demonstrated by a net zero— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, a second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the environmentally, culturally and economically devastatingly impacts of climate change, particularly for future generations, when will the government commit to introducing a climate trigger into the EPBC Act to require the climate impacts of all large projects to be considered and to allow the outright rejection of big coal, oil and gas projects on climate grounds?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do agree with the characterisation about the urgency of action on climate. And I believe our country would've been far better off had we, first, passed the emissions trading scheme or, second, if we had been able to continue the clean energy package that Ms Gillard's government introduced. Regrettably, that was not the case. I think we would've been in a more competitive position than we are now in a global economy which is increasingly prioritising clean energy.</para>
<para>The question, again, goes to a policy lever that I understand those at that end of the chamber have been advocating for—some have been advocating for in the community. We went to the election with a very clear commitment about how we would reduce Australia's emissions and how we would seek to shift our economy from an emissions— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria: Infrastructure</title>
          <page.no>50</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, Senator Watt. Minister, how will the Albanese Labor government continue working with the re-elected Andrews Labor government to deliver important infrastructure projects in my home state of Victoria?</para>
<para>Oppositi on senators interjecting—</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It seems that even after the election the trigger words are still there: the Andrews Labor government. Sorry, I didn't mean to say Andrews Labor government. I thank the senator for the question. I know that he is a proud Victorian. I would hazard a guess that he personally voted for the Andrews Labor government on the weekend. Trigger warning: there are lots of references to the Andrews Labor government in this answer. I should really give you a trigger warning.</para>
<para>On Saturday the Victorian community came together and emphatically endorsed the Andrews Labor government and their agenda for Victoria's future. I would like to congratulate Premier Daniel Andrews on his success and the significant achievement of a third time in government. Despite what you may have heard in this place last week, it's clear that the Victorian community has strongly endorsed the work that Premier Daniel Andrews and his team have done to date, as well as the work to be done over the coming years. This was despite an increasingly desperate and personal scare campaign run by the Liberals and Nationals both in Victoria and in the federal government.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order on relevance: I was wondering whether you might draw the minister's attention to the question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt has been broadly relevant, but I will remind him the question was about infrastructure.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is always good to talk about the Andrews Labor government. The Albanese Labor government will continue to work with the Andrews Labor government on infrastructure projects throughout the state of Victoria. Through the 2022-23 October budget we have gone line by line through the previous government's mess of an infrastructure portfolio and cleaned it up, while making sure we continue to invest in important projects for Victoria's future. We have put an end to the fake financing and ideological obsession with the East West Link. We are working with the Andrews Labor government to invest in the Barwon Heads Road upgrade stage 2, the Ison Road overpass, the Melbourne Airport rail link, the Gippsland rail line upgrade, the Camerons Lane Interchange at Beveridge and, of course, the $2.2 billion to the Suburban Rail Loop that will be delivered by an Albanese Labor government and the Andrews Labor government.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">T</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ciccone, a first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for that answer. How will the federal Labor government work with the Victorian Labor government to deliver important infrastructure projects such as the Suburban Rail Loop?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am very pleased you asked about the Suburban Rail Loop, which was a core commitment of the Andrews Labor government. The Suburban Rail Loop is a once in a generation infrastructure project that will transform how Victorians move around the state.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And, while some still don't want to accept the reality of defeat after defeat, the Australian government will work with the newly elected Andrews Labor government—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>to honour our election commitment to provide $2.2 billion—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Henderson, it is not okay to run a commentary alongside the minister's answer. I would ask you to listen quietly. Minister, please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I say, we will now honour our election commitment to provide $2.2 billion towards the Suburban Rail Loop east, which was yet again endorsed by Victorians on the weekend. But it's not just urban Victorians who will benefit from this project; regional Victorians, from Gippsland and the Latrobe Valley, will benefit, gaining fast access to Monash University and to Monash Health, including the Children's Hospital, all without having to go into central Melbourne, saving an hour of travel. This is an important project, and yet again Victorians have endorsed it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ciccone, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, I thank the minister. Minister, has the Victorian community expressed a view in relation to the delivery of the Suburban Rail Loop by the state and federal governments?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In fact, Senator Ciccone, it's clear from the results of Saturday night that the people of Victoria have yet again made their view clear on the Suburban Rail Loop. Not once but twice this year alone, communities in Melbourne's east have voted emphatically in favour of this project. Whether it's Bayswater, Glen Waverley or Box Hill on Saturday night, or Chisholm and Hotham back in May, local communities have made it clear that they want the delivery of the Suburban Rail Loop.</para>
<para>You really would think that the Victorian Liberals would have seen the warning signs after the 2018 election, when Victorians backed in the Suburban Rail Loop—but no. It's like a rail line with a big 'danger ahead' sign, and Senator Henderson and her friends just charged on. It happened again in the federal election, when a government that took the Suburban Rail Loop to the people was backed in. But again Senator Henderson, Senator Van and Senator McKenzie couldn't hear the warning signs. And now they've driven the coalition train off the track—a massive derailment. Stop digging; we've got tunnelling machines to dig the holes for the rail line! We don't need you digging, but you will keep doing so. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Iran: Human Rights</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Over the last three months, the Iranian regime has been accused of killing more than 300 civilians standing up for human rights, particularly Iranian women and girls. The Iranian Australian community has been calling for weeks for the Australian government to hold the Iranian regime to account. Has the government now applied any targeted sanctions, such as those imposed by like-minded nations, and, if not, why not?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you to Senator Chandler for her question. She and I had a discussion about this in estimates, and I would refer her, in terms of the action we have been taking, to the answer I gave in the Senate last week about this issue. We have taken action against Iran. We've consistently called out the regime publicly for its egregious actions, and I think everybody in this place—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>as much as you might like to play a bit of politics with this, Senator Van—would stand united in our condemnation of the brutal repression of civil and political rights in Iran, following the tragic death of Mahsa Amini.</para>
<para>I would make this point. In relation to sanctions, the senator does know that I have not, nor has any foreign minister before me, including Senator Payne—notwithstanding her interjection—ever speculated publicly on sanctions. No foreign minister would publicly speculate on sanctions, for very good reasons.</para>
<para>I understand the calls from the community in Australia. I met with some representatives last week and I said to them I understand why it is that people feel so strongly about this and why people are so angry. In a world in which Australia and other like-minded countries, such as Canada, the US, New Zealand and many others that we have been working with, in the UN context, to put pressure on Iran—I wish we could make this better, but we can't. That is the reality. This is a repressive regime; we have to continue to work with other members of international community to assert clear pressure in that context. We have also made representations directly— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chandler, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week after cancelling a division on my urgency motion calling on this government to take concrete action against the human rights abuses perpetrated by the Iranian government, both the opposition and the Greens clarified their positions as in favour of the motion. What was the government's position on the motion? In support? Or against, as Labor senators called out at the time?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is going back a few days. My recollection is that the whip indicated the government's position on that motion. So, I'd refer you to <inline font-style="italic">Ha</inline><inline font-style="italic">nsard </inline>on that. But, again—</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I'm advised that she did. I would say that I think we have been very clear about our position in relation to Iran. And I find it disappointing that those opposite are playing politics with an issue when we see people being killed because of their actions and their beliefs. I find it extraordinary. You think that a procedure in the chamber, where there was obviously an issue where an explanation had to be given in relation to a vote, is somehow the main issue? No. Do you know what the issue is? It is the repression of women, men and children in Iran for standing up for their rights. That's the issue.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chandler, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hundreds of Iranian Australians, Kurdish Australians and their supporters have been rallying outside the parliament today. Will the government listen to them and take real action to strengthen Australia's response to the abuses in Iran?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm aware of that protest. I discussed it with members of the community with whom I met last week, and I support their right to protest and I understand their calls. I do understand their calls. As I said to members of the community and as I've said previously to them, if I were in their position—I perfectly understand why they're calling for it. The person who holds this office has to make a range of decisions and go through a range of processes and make a judgement in Australia's best interests—I presume the same judgement as the coalition government made when Iran was elected to the Commission on the Status of Women, and no protest was lodged by the former government.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>COVID-19</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health, Senator Gallagher. How are governments working together to meet the continuing health challenges presented by COVID?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Smith for the question. Governments around Australia are monitoring this fourth wave of omicron closely. Data released last Friday over the last seven days suggests that the current wave is likely to peak towards the end of November and into early December. The case numbers are up by 10 per cent in the last seven days, compared with 47 per cent in the seven days before that and 38 per cent in the seven days before that. So, it's important that people continue to take precautions against COVID, and the best precaution is to be up to date with vaccinations.</para>
<para>The Albanese government is working with states and territories through national cabinet to ensure that we have a strong national response. In the recent budget, total spending on COVID measures is around $2.6 billion, including funding for the stockpile, vaccines and treatments and significant investment in aged care. We will continue to work constructively with all state and territory governments, because we know that a cooperative, collaborative approach leads to better public health outcomes.</para>
<para>Having governments working closely with their communities is also vital, and we saw evidence of this in the Victorian election on the weekend. No-one has done it tougher during this pandemic than the people in Victoria, and the strong, focused leadership of Premier Daniel Andrews through the pandemic has been endorsed with this extraordinary victory. On the weekend Victorians voted for a competent government. The strong leadership of Premier Andrews and his government shows that, during the challenges thrown at Victorians during the pandemic, accepting the public health advice, accepting the evidence, making tough decisions but being honest and up-front and transparent does reward you electorally. The government looks forward to working with the Andrews government and all state and territory governments as we tackle this next wave of COVID-19.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what are we doing to protect older Australians and those in aged care?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The budget includes funding to support ongoing measures to protect older Australians. Key measures include $810 million in additional funding for aged-care support program grants so that aged-care providers continue to be supported with the costs of managing COVID-19, $235 million to ensure aged care, primary care, disability care and First Nations health services will continue to have access to a supply of PPE, treatments, rapid antigen tests—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallagher</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, I can hardly hear myself.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong and Senator Henderson.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, you've have had a tough weekend! We know you have. Take all the time you need.</para>
<para>The government has been on the front foot to help protect older Australians most at risk of COVID. Our measures to support the aged-care sector include predeploying summer packs of personal protective equipment to all residential aged-care homes, continuing to prioritise boosters and continuing access to surge workforces and additional workers. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MARIELLE SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what action is the government taking to ensure more Australians have access to antiviral medication to treat COVID?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In July this year the Minister for Health and Aged Care announced the widening of eligibility for antiviral drugs to treat COVID. All Australians aged over 70 who test positive for COVID are now able to access antivirals on the PBS. Access has also been expanded to people over the age of 50 with two or more risk factors for severe disease and to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people aged over 30 with two or more risk factors for severe disease.</para>
<para>The most recent data shows that 394,100 doses of antivirals have been prescribed and dispensed from the PBS, prescription numbers increased by 11.8 per cent last week compared to the previous week and approximately 34,130 antiviral prescriptions have been provided to people in residential aged care.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>President, I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can Senators please leave the chamber with some degree of decorum.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>54</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation, Health Care</title>
          <page.no>54</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of answers given by the Minister for Finance (Senator Gallagher) to questions without notice from Senators McDonald and Ruston.</para></quote>
<para>We have another Labor government and we have another Labor tax. It's another Labor tax that's been flagged over these past few weeks to our mining industry—our mining sector. Senator McDonald asked about that. We heard the normal weasel words we heard way back before 2010, that there are no plans today for a tax on the mining industry. But that doesn't mean, of course, there won't be a plan tomorrow.</para>
<para>There has been a campaign over the past few weeks to leak out to prepare the ground for attacks on Australia's mining industry and attacks on Australians' jobs. There has been complete disarray from this government about what they are going to do and how they are going to handle the skyrocketing energy prices that Australians are facing this Christmas. My wife just told me about our latest electricity bill, which has gone up by 15 per cent. I know a lot of other Australians will be facing that in the months ahead, and that's challenging for all Australians.</para>
<para>This government promised Australians only six months ago, at the election, that they would lower their power bills by $275 a year. They didn't just do it once or twice or three times. It wasn't a footnote in their policy. It was said 97 times by now Prime Minister Anthony Albanese that they would lower power bills by $275. They haven't done that. As we saw in their first budget, power prices are actually due to go up by 56 per cent over the next two years, completely breaking their promise.</para>
<para>Now they're in a desperate huddle to try and find some other solution to distract people's attention. They don't know what to do in that huddle. They're all doing different things and breaking out in different ways. We have the Minister for Industry and Science, Mr Husic, out there saying that gas companies are greedy and need to be somehow penalised—I think. It's unclear exactly what Mr Husic wants to do to them. We have Ms King, the Minister for Resources, saying, 'Oh, no, it is all fixed.' She has fixed it. She has signed a MOU with the gas industry and it will all be fine next year. And we have had the Treasury officials come to Senate estimates and say that we do need to intervene in gas markets and they themselves gave credence to this idea of a tax.</para>
<para>The problem we have here is, even if the Labor government get scared off introducing a tax, this is destroying confidence in our economy, it is destroying investment in the economy and that is not what we need right now in a time of high inflation. We need to attract investment to get our economy going, because we produce more. If we are more productive then that will help bring inflation down. It will create more goods for all that too much money that is out there. We saw last week the Reserve Bank governor Philip Lowe give a speech about this, and he highlighted that investment in our resources sector is at a very low level right now. It is running at three per cent of GDP. Resources accounts for seven per cent of the GDP, the actual output, so investment in resources is much lower than its share of the economy, which is quite strange right now, very strange, given that the actual price for our resources is at a record high.</para>
<para>Most people probably remember the previous mining boom that peaked in about 2011-12 when iron ore, coal, gas, copper and gold—almost all commodities—were at record highs. We had a massive amount of money coming through the Treasury here in Canberra. We had record investments in resources at that time. Investment in resources grew to nine per cent of GDP, with $200 billion in our gas industry and the massive expansion of iron ore and coal industries across Australia creating thousands of jobs. We had problems in regional Queensland because there was too much going on. You could not get a house and rents were through the roof but they were probably good problems to have, really, in hindsight.</para>
<para>Now we don't have that problem; we have the opposite problem. We are not attracting investment and that is because this government is not giving the people the confidence to invest despite these very high prices. We have coal prices sitting at $350 a tonne. The previous record was about $180 a tonne, so the prices are sitting at a level double the previous record right now. Why aren't people investing in the industry? Because there is no confidence here. They don't know what the government policy is. The government don't know what their policy is. They are arguing with each other. They are talking about taxes and regulations and all these types of penalties that may be imposed on someone. You are not going to invest and you are not going to create jobs if you have no confidence in what the policy settings will be in the years ahead when you have to pay that investment back. So I implore the government to get their act together before Christmas. Before Christmas, give a present to the thousands of Australians who rely on the resources industry for their jobs, for their livelihoods, and let us know what you are doing so we can take advantage of this record opportunity to invest.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHITE</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to respond to the question from Senator Ruston. Let's talk about GPs and let's talk about what our health system is like after we have inherited nine long years of cuts and neglect of Medicare. It's never been harder or more expensive to see a doctor than it is now. The former government froze the Medicare rebate for six years, ripping billions of dollars out of primary care and causing gap fees to skyrocket. Last week I saw a delegation of GPs about this and they talked about the hardship of running practices in a range of areas, not just in rural and regional areas but in metropolitan and outer metropolitan areas. That is a direct result of the freezing of the Medicare rebate, which has been frozen for six years. Those are the real problems that are facing our GPs, so is no wonder young doctors are walking away from general practice in droves.</para>
<para>Just as every new Labor government always has to do, we are cleaning up the mess that has been left behind by the Liberal Party, not just in all the other areas we have discussed but also in this massive area of health and what our GPs need and want, and what the public deserves. In 2019 the Morrison government arbitrarily axed the ability of a long list of communities to recruit overseas-trained doctors to fill gaps in general practice in those outer suburbs and the regions. That was a travesty that has caused part of the shortage that we are seeing today. Labor initiated a Senate inquiry into the GP shortages in the last parliament, as the minister discussed. It heard mountains of evidence of people not being able to see a GP at all, having to wait months for an appointment and having to travel hours when they do finally get one. I, myself, have seen many, many workers who have not been able to get medical certificates from doctors because they just could not get an appointment—that is not in rural and regional areas but in suburban Melbourne. They could not see a doctor. Then their pay got docked because they could not get a medical certificate when they were genuinely sick.</para>
<para>We have deliberately not changed the regional incentive payments that doctors receive for working in remote Australia, exactly because we recognise the importance of providing additional incentives for doctors to work in those remote and regional communities. The government funds a range of programs and incentives in addition to the DPA incentive to encourage GPs to relocate and work there. The Albanese government is committed to investing in general practice and strengthening Medicare with almost $1 billion of investment. Our Strengthening Medicare Taskforce will identify the best ways to boost affordability, improve access and deliver better support for patients with ongoing and chronic illnesses, backed by the $750 million Strengthening Medicare Fund. That's real progress. Those are real policies. That is in total contrast to what the Liberal-National government had done for the long nine years beforehand. The lack of policies is why we are in crisis—in fact, some policies were anti-GP—and that's what we're trying to repair.</para>
<para>After working tirelessly through the pandemic, our doctors will be given the resources to invest in their GP practices with our $220 million strengthening Medicare GP grants. That is real policy, that is real progress, and that will make a massive difference for GPs in rural, regional and suburban areas. We're also investing $146 million to attract and retain more health workers to rural and regional Australia. This will mean more trials of new, innovative models of primary care. During the pandemic we saw a range of innovations which we think can be continued beyond the pandemic. There are also going to be more than 1,000 places under the John Flynn Prevocational Doctor Program to encourage more hospital based junior doctors to enter general practice in rural Australia. That's how we're going to get doctors into rural Australia—by placing incentives on the table and encouraging young doctors to go to those locations.</para>
<para>There will also be additional training for rural generalist registrars, GP registrars and fellow GPs to undertake advanced skills training. That is real policy, that is what the Albanese comment is doing, and that will make a massive difference not just to rural and regional areas but to suburban Australia as well.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to take note of the question from Senator Ruston of Minister Gallagher. I hardly know where to start with this appalling Labor policy. As other colleagues have said, it is absolutely detrimental to the health care of Australia's most vulnerable in rural, regional and remote areas. It is even worse when you consider that the government admitted during estimates that they had done not a second of consultation with people who might be concerned. They've called a taskforce instead of actually going out and talking to the people of Western Australia, instead of going out into regional and remote communities to talk to them, these communities who are so starved of GP care.</para>
<para>For the DPA classification to now include outer metro areas is such a retrograde step for so many people in Western Australia. Let me tell you what Labor has done to Western Australia on health. We've got a health system in absolute crisis and chaos, we've got record ramping, we've got record code blacks, we've got our nurses in uproar and on strike and now, not only are we 350 young doctors short in our hospitals in Western Australia, we are over 100 GPs short, mostly in rural and remote communities. What does that mean? It means that Western Australians who are our most vulnerable, those in Indigenous communities and in other remote areas, who need health care the most cannot get the health care they need, and this will make it worse.</para>
<para>The minister, Minister Butler, couldn't even say today how many communities were impacted. Well, let me tell you: if we're 100 GPs short in Western Australia, the vast majority of them are in regional and remote areas. According to Western Australian doctors, that means that in every town that is without a GP or is underserviced by GPs there are 50 people a day who are not getting the support and the medical support they need—50 people a day per doctor for our most vulnerable. So, shame on Labor—again, policy on the run, without even consulting anyone.</para>
<para>Let me finish by providing some of the information that if Labor had come to Western Australia and gone out into regional Australia they would have found out. As I said, regional health is struggling by 100 doctors that we're missing and we cannot get, for about 50 patients a day. So, even areas that are closer to the city—take, for example, Toodyay—are concerned because they're competing with Margaret River, competing with the coast and now competing with outer suburbs of Perth. Shame on Labor.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Renewable Energy</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy (Senator Wong) to a question without notice asked by Senator Hanson today relating to renewable energy.</para></quote>
<para>The Ukraine conflict does not affect coal fired electricity prices in this country, because our domestic coal fired power stations have long-term price contracts. They are not subject to spot international prices. Fuel prices in coal fired generation are a tiny proportion. Secondly, no country transitioning to unreliable solar and wind has reduced electricity prices. Countries that increased solar and wind increased electricity prices every time. The relationship is approximately linear: more solar, more wind, higher prices. Thirdly, CSIRO projections rely on applying favourable and unreasonable hurdle rates for investing in unreliable and expensive solar and wind costs. CSIRO cost assessments of solar and wind do not include construction costs of the roads, the bridges et cetera coming in, disposable costs every 10 to 15 years—which is three times for the equivalent life of a coal fired power station. New offshore turbines are so big that they have to build ships dedicated to moving them. The cost of the ships is not included. Batteries essential for continuity of supply in wind and solar are not needed for coal. There is an extra $100 billion on solar and wind that is not included in the costings. Grid stability management due to wind and solar being unstable and asynchronous are not included in the costings. And transmission lines, because the distance from the generation sources to the cities where the customers are is so big that the transmission lines are estimated to be an extra $50 billion expense, are not needed for coal fired power. Why are solar and wind still subsidised? Who pays for these subsidies? It is the electricity users. That's what's driving up, in part, our electricity generation costs.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Treasurer (Senator Gallagher) to a question without notice asked by Senator McDonald today relating to taxation.</para></quote>
<para>I'm astonished to hear those opposite, after a decade of delay, denial and destruction, having the audacity to stand there and tell us what to do. When we went to the election we clearly saw what the Australian people wanted. They wanted change. They wanted a progressive government who will take action, who won't break their promises, who will ensure that Australians' voices are heard. And it's quite astonishing to see even my colleagues from Western Australia stand up and talk about what's best for Australians. Well, you had a decade. What did you do? Despite the delaying tactics from the opposition, it's really refreshing to see that the government is going to be delivering on its commitments, because of course the adults are back in charge and we will take the reins and run with it.</para>
<para>We've made it clear that we're prepared to consider a range of options when it comes to high energy prices in an energy market that is putting a lot of pressure on Australians, and we see it day in, day out. Obviously that pressure is replicated in Australian industry. We've said that our priority is on the side of regulation rather than the side of taxation. But we're going through this in a thoughtful and considered way, because that's what Labor governments do. We take precautionary measures. We do an incredible amount of consultation before we make decisions, and we ensure that it's in the best interests of all Australians.</para>
<para>A windfall tax is not our preference. We've said it before: our preference is a regulatory solution. Of course, we're dealing with these rising power prices,, in large part because of Russia's illegal war in Ukraine but also, in small part, as the consequence of the wasted decade by those opposite, including more than 20 failed energy policies—Yes! Get it? Twenty failed energy policies! The former government's fingerprints are all over those power price rises, especially the member for Hume, who hid the price rises that he knew about before the election. Surprise, surprise!</para>
<para>Australians know we didn't cause this mess, but we do take responsibility for cleaning it up, because, again, adults are back in charge. A windfall tax wouldn't help with the near-term economic challenges, including the growing inflation challenge we have right now. Our priority when it comes to tax reform is ensuring multinationals pay their fair share of tax here in Australia. That will play a part in repairing the budget, a budget that has been destroyed. In all our work we seek to get rid of the rorts and waste that have contributed to a trillion dollars of debt left to us that didn't come with an economic dividend. Multinational corporations making a profit in Australia should pay their fair share of tax in Australia, and our multinational tax package will close tax loopholes exploited by multinationals and improve tax transparency, because that's what Australian people want to see—integrity and transparency restored back in our political system. This will benefit Australians by funding vital services like Medicare, aged care and child care; helping to service the trillion dollars of debt racked up by those opposite; and levelling the playing field for Australian businesses.</para>
<para>The government has committed to tackling multinational tax avoidance in four ways: supporting the OECD's two-pillar solution for a global 15 per cent minimum tax and ensuring some of the profits of the largest multinationals, particularly digital firms, are taxed where the products or services are sold; limiting debt related deductions by multinationals at 30 per cent of their profits; limiting the ability for multinationals to abuse Australia's tax treaties when holding intellectual property in tax havens; and, finally, introducing transparency measures, including reporting requirements on tax information, beneficial ownership, tax haven exposure and in relation to government tenders. I'd like to reiterate before going: it is time to have integrity and transparency back in our political system, and that's what Labor is delivering.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Health Care</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care (Senator Gallagher) to a question without notice asked by Senator Ruston today relating to the Distribution Priority Area classification scheme for GPs.</para></quote>
<para>Changes, like the recent expansion of the Distribution Priority Area classifications by the Albanese Labor government, have only had a negative impact as we work to address workforce challenges in rural and regional Australia. Solving a problem in one area by making the situation worse in another is a really ill conceived solution to a really serious issue. The DPA classification system was designed as a crucial part of solving the GP crisis in rural communities by identifying areas of greatest need. The decision to expand the priorities status classification to outer metropolitan suburbs has effectively rendered any advantage for rural and remote parts of the country to the dustbin. The Rural Doctors Association of Australia has stated that this policy change 'will cost lives of rural and remote patients who are already suffering poorer health outcomes'. We've already seen a number of real life examples of how this expansion has pulled international medical graduates away from rural communities who are crying out for GPs. Examples include a doctor who was headed for Huonville in Tasmania but, because they now have the option of living in Hobart under the DPA changes, the Huonville community were left without the primary care support the doctor would have provided. The regional centre of Mildura has also been battling to keep many of its IMGs following the closure of a major clinic because practising in Dandenong is now an option.</para>
<para>When asked in estimates if the Albanese government had consulted the rural and regional communities before deciding to expand the DPA classifications and make it harder for them to attract doctors, Assistant Minister McCarthy replied, 'No.' Labor have consistently refused to even acknowledge the impact of this decision on rural communities, and today in question time Minister Butler couldn't even provide the number of towns who have lost a GP since the decision came into effect.</para>
<para>Right now, we need to be absolutely focused on ensuring the right levers are in place to get more doctors practising in the bush, not making it harder for rural communities to attract GPs. We will continue to seek answers from the government on this serious issue until they provide some transparency on the full extent of the impact that their decision is having on rural, regional and remote communities.</para>
<para>It has been clear that the Albanese Labor government does not have a plan to address the critical workforce shortages we are seeing across Australia's healthcare sector, particularly in relation to GPs. So far, all we've seen from this government is their dedication to copying coalition policies from the election. They have not announced one single new initiative that meaningfully responds to GP shortages as they are unfolding. The government's Jobs and Skills Summit was meant to address this issue, but all it delivered was another talk-fest that failed to deliver any real plans.</para>
<para>The only initiative they have actually delivered, expanding the DPA—distribution priority area—classifications for overseas trained doctors has exacerbated the problem by ripping away GPs from many rural and regional communities that were already struggling with GP shortages. Labor are too busy working on their next grab line for a headline, instead of working with the practices and communities on the ground who understand the issue and are crying out for the government to listen. Don't take my word on this. The Chair of the RACGP Rural Council, Dr Michael Clements, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This will absolutely lead to an immediate migration of doctors out of the rural and remote areas … closer to big cities … as a direct result of this.</para></quote>
<para>Minister Butler must urgently explain to the Australian public and healthcare sector if he has a plan to address the issue of GP shortages that are unfolding across the country. We asked: Who did you consult? How many towns were negatively affected? That is what we need the answer to, and we don't need any more services or GPs exiting rural, regional and remote communities.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Media Ownership</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry and Minister for Emergency Management (Senator Watt) representing the Minister for Communications to questions without notice I asked today relating to media ownership.</para></quote>
<para>This was in relation to the disastrous performance of some in the Murdoch press over the last number of months, increasingly reaching a fever pitch of hysteria and, of course, craziness. This came to a head over the weekend. We had the results of the Victorian election, where, overwhelmingly, Victorians rejected the overt political campaign trumpeted by quarters of the Murdoch press. In fact, voters seemingly ignored what happened and what was being printed on the front pages of the News Corp papers or seen in the crazy shows late at night on Sky News. Front page after front page of the News Corp newspapers argued that voters should vote the other way. It seems that, overwhelmingly, Victorians ignored that.</para>
<para>The reason I asked questions around the need for media diversity is that, if a democracy is to be strong, if a democracy is to be robust, if a diversity of voices are to be represented in our parliaments and if we are to have good government policy in the interests of all Australians, we need a strong, reliable, trustworthy news media sector. What we've got in this country is a media sector that is overwhelmingly concentrated, more than in many other comparable countries in the world, by one particular corporation. That, of course, is the Murdoch empire and News Corp. That part of the Australian media has become a parody of itself: hysteria, lies, mistruths and more and more opinion over journalism and opinion over fact. Meanwhile, there are good journalists working across all parts of the Australian media who are just trying to do their job and do it well. They have good stories to tell—good investigative stories to tell—and want to be able to do their part in upholding a strong democracy.</para>
<para>Journalists should be able to question governments, hold governments to account and know that when they have a good story, when they are onto something, that they can have that published and believed. But what we have in this country is the Murdoch press dragging down every journalist in this country—even their own. There are some very, very good journalists who work within the Murdoch empire, don't get me wrong, and I feel increasingly sorry for them—that they work within an organisation that has become a parody of itself. It is seemingly uninterested in truth, uninterested in fact and uninterested in upholding democracy.</para>
<para>This is why we need to have a serious account of media diversity in this country. We do need a judicial inquiry with the powers of a royal commission to ensure we have media regulation that is fit for purpose and fit for the modern world. It's the dominance of the craziness that comes out of our social media platforms and the big media giants; without any control, without any regulation, they think they can do whatever they want. Just look at what Elon Musk is doing with Twitter right now. He has fired not just half his staff but the very people who protect everyday users and citizens from harmful and dangerous content. Twitter is becoming a cesspool and that is it—a cesspool of hate, trolls and misinformation. And on the other hand we have the other domination of the media in the Murdoch press, which cares little about facts and real information.</para>
<para>We need to fix the media landscape in this country; we need laws and regulations that are fit for purpose. And it shouldn't be up to the politicians to pick and choose. This needs to be at arms' length and that is why we need a royal commission, and we need one today. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>59</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senators McCarthy and O'Neill for today, for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senators Hughes and Molan from 28 November to 2 December, for personal reasons; Senators Birmingham and Dean Smith for 2 December, for personal reasons.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Affairs Legislation Committee, Community Affairs References Committee, Economics Legislation Committee, Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reporting Date</title>
            <page.no>60</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>61</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to amend business of the Senate notice of motion No. 2, relating to a reference regarding high-voltage electricity infrastructure.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the motion as amended:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Environment and Communications References Committee for inquiry and report by 1 December 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The impact of high-voltage electricity transmission infrastructure on agricultural and environmental land, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">a) the effects of using overhead and underground transmission infrastructure on agricultural and environmental assets and the communities they support;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">b) the Commonwealth's role in the development of transmission infrastructure;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">c) opportunities for the Commonwealth to engage and work constructively with states and territories, private enterprise, and local communities and other stakeholders in order to reduce the potential for transmission infrastructure to negatively impact agricultural and environmental assets ; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">d) any other related matters.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that the motion moved by Senator Cadell, which a reference to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee, be agreed to</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:39]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education and Employment References Committee</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>62</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Education and Employment References Committee for inquiry and report by the first sitting day in July 2023:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The issue of increasing disruption in Australian school classrooms, which is disadvantaging students and contributing to poor literacy and numeracy results for young people, denying them the learning of essential foundational skills to reach their full educational, economic and social potential, with specific reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the declining ranking of Australia in the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) disciplinary climate index, making Australian classrooms amongst the world's most disorderly;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the impacts, demands and experience of disorderly classrooms on teacher safety, work satisfaction and workforce retention;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) teachers' views on whether or not they are sufficiently empowered and equipped to maintain order in the classroom and what can be done to assist them;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the robustness, quality and extent of initial teacher education to equip teachers with skills and strategies to manage classrooms;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the loss of instructional teacher time because of disorder and distraction in Australian school classrooms;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the impact of disorderly, poorly disciplined classroom environments and school practices on students' learning, compared with their peers in more disciplined classrooms;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) the stagnant and declining results across fundamental disciplines as tested through National Assessment Program—Literacy and Numeracy (NAPLAN) attributing to poorer school-leaving results and post-school attainment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) how relevant Australian state, territory and federal departments and agencies are working to address this growing challenge;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) how leading OECD countries with the highest disciplinary climate index rankings are delivering orderly classrooms to provide strategies on how to reduce distraction and disorder in Australian classrooms; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) any related matter.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that the motion moved by Senator O'Sullivan, regarding a reference to the Education and Employment References Committee, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:47]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>45</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement on business of the Senate notice of motion No. 3.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is not granted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>63</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Child Care</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>63</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 2 pm on 29 November 2022, modelling and analysis that was conducted by the Department of the Treasury into the potential economic impact and increase in workforce participation resulting from the Family Assistance Legislation Amendment (Cheaper Child Care) Bill 2022 (as discussed by Department of the Treasury officials on 2 November 2022 at a public hearing of the Education and Employment Legislation Committee).</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Sena</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>tor CHISHOLM (—Assistant Minister for Education, Assistant Minister for Regional Development and Deputy Manager of Government Business in the Senate) (): I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is not granted. The question is that the order for the production of documents as moved by Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:56]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>18</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a statement in regard to our response to notice of motion No. 96.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Family Assistance Legislation Amendment (Cheaper Child Care) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6914" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Family Assistance Legislation Amendment (Cheaper Child Care) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>64</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 2 pm on 29 November 2022, legal advice that was provided to the Government regarding the requirement in the Family Assistance Legislation Amendment (Cheaper Child Care) Bill 2022 for early childhood education and care providers to collect gap fees via electronic funds transfer, particularly as this relates to the restriction of the use of legal tender and coinage (as mentioned by Senator Chisholm in the Senate on 21 November 2022).</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It has been the longstanding practice of successive Australian governments not to disclose privileged legal advice, and the government maintains that it is not in the public interest to depart from this established position.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the chair is that the motion as moved by Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:01]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Payne, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Rice, J. E.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Van, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>17</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>White, L.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Global Methane Pledge</title>
          <page.no>65</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>65</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of Senator McDonald, I move general business notices of motion Nos 98 and 99 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">GENERAL BUSINESS NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 98</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) order for production of documents no. 62 (the order) agreed by the Senate on 26 October 2022, required the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy to table the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water (the Department) regarding the Global Methane Pledge that was committed to on 23 October 2022 (the GMP),</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) any briefing notes, file notes and emails internally within the Department regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(C) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Minister for the Environment and Water and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(D) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Foreign Minister and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(E) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Prime Minister and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(F) any modelling conducted by the Department regarding the impact of the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(G) any briefing notes, minutes, file notes and emails regarding meetings conducted between the Department and stakeholders with reference to the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(H) any briefing notes, minutes, file notes and emails regarding meetings conducted between the Minister and/or their office and stakeholders with reference to the GMP, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(I) any briefing notes, minutes, files notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office and stakeholders with reference to the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Assistant Minister for Climate Change and Energy, in their response on 3 November 2022, noted the scope of the request and requested further time, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) it has been 25 days since this response was provided; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requires the Minister representing the Minister for Climate Change and Energy to comply with the order by no later than midday on 1 December 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">GENERAL BUSINESS NOTICE OF MOTION NO. 99</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) order for production of documents no. 61 (the order) agreed by the Senate on 26 October 2022, required the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to table the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry (the Department) regarding the Global Methane Pledge that was committed to on 23 October 2022 (the GMP),</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) any briefing notes, file notes and emails internally within the Department regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(C) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Minister for Climate Change and Energy and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(D) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Minister for the Environment and Water and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(E) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Foreign Minister and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(F) any briefing notes, file notes and emails between the Minister and/or their office, and the Prime Minister and/or their office, regarding the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(G) any modelling conducted by the Department regarding the impact of the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(H) any briefing notes, minutes, file notes and emails regarding meetings conducted between the Department and stakeholders with reference to the GMP, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(I) any briefing notes, minutes, file notes and emails regarding meetings conducted between the Minister and/or their office and stakeholders with reference to the GMP,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry, in their response on 3 November 2022, noted the scope of the request and requested further time, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) it has been 25 days since this response was provided; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requires the Minister for Agriculture, Fisheries and Forestry to comply with the order by no later than midday on 1 December 2022.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Currency</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>66</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Treasurer, by no later than midday on Wednesday, 30 November 2022, any briefing notes, file notes, emails or other records of interaction between the Reserve Bank of Australia and:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Treasurer and/or his office;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Assistant Minister for Competition, Charities and Treasury and/or his office; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the Department of the Treasury since 30 May 2022;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">in relation to changes and/or potential changes to the effigy of the Sovereign on Australian banknotes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</title>
        <page.no>66</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Hobart Stadium</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A letter has been received from Senator Lambie:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tasmanian State Government proposal for a $750 million stadium in Hobart should not go ahead. The money would be better spent on health and housing in Tasmania.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having </inline> <inline font-style="italic">risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that informal arrangements have been made to allocate specific times to each of the speakers in today's debate. With the concurrence of the Senate, I ask the clerks to set the clock accordingly.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If the Tasmanian state government gets its way, we're going to spend $370 million on a new Hobart stadium at Macquarie Point. Anybody with a cheque book worth $375 million in free cash and facing the problems that Tasmania is facing wouldn't start with a stadium. The lack of a you-beaut stadium is a problem, yes, but it is not at the top of the list of priorities. So why are we doing this? It's because we have a gun to our heads and it's being held by the CEO of the AFL.</para>
<para>The AFL says we can't have a team without building the stadium, even though we already have two. Both of them meet the grade for the AFL and we play games there now. But you don't have to worry about those kinds of details when you're not the one paying for it. And the AFL are not the ones paying for it, Tasmanian taxpayers are. Why? Because the new stadium was never included in the AFL task force business case for a Tassie team. It wasn't supposed to be part of the deal. It snuck its way in and suddenly we're on the hook, just like a fish.</para>
<para>Don't get me wrong, it's not to say that a stadium wouldn't be a good thing to have—it would be great to have, I'm sure. Hobart is missing out on major conferences. At the moment, Hobart doesn't have a site for a conference like that. It means we go without the money that comes from interstate tourism. That money is worth something to the state coffers. How much? I have no idea, because the state government of Tasmania has no idea—no business case prepared and no figures supporting the decision. We just don't know, it's pie-in-the sky stuff. There will be some value from it, and that's a good thing. It's why it's not a bad idea in isolation, but we just can't look at this in isolation—I wish that we could. But if we're going to back this, what do we say to the people sleeping in their cars? 'Here are some free tickets, go on your way'? Do we just tell pensioners freezing in their homes in winter because they can't afford their power bills that we will send them some AFL branded socks? Fair dinkum!</para>
<para>It would be a fine thing to have a stadium in more economically secure times, and maybe we'd even be able to justify it right now. But it can't be on top of the list of things we need to spend $375 million on in Tasmania. We are in a housing crisis and we are in a health crisis. People are dying waiting for a hospital bed. They're not dying waiting for a bloody footy team! People are living in tents and our priority has to be putting a roof over their heads, not putting a roof over a stadium. The argument from the Tasmanian Premier that this money won't come at the cost of health and housing, with all due respect, is absolute rubbish! It is up to him where they allocate the money that Tasmanian taxpayers pay. He should wake up to himself!</para>
<para>Is he saying it wouldn't be addressed faster if we spent more? Why? Is he out of ideas of what he could spend the money on to make things better soon? If he is, I would tell him to throw a rock out of his office window and whoever it hits will have a million ideas for him. But don't actually do that, because if it hurts them there will be nowhere in the health system to put them! If he isn't saying that, and he has ideas about how to make things better sooner, is he saying that they don't need the money? If so, why isn't he doing them already?</para>
<para>Of course, what he's saying is that he has ways to make it better faster, but that they need money right now and they don't have the money. They don't have $375 million sitting behind their couch.</para>
<para>So, where's the money coming from, Premier? From the roads? From the schools? From the hospitals? From Tasmanians to the AFL: the AFL is holding a gun to the heads of Tasmanians, and that is the truth of the matter, and you are absolutely despicable, when there are more crucial points that need to be dealt with. People's lives are at risk in Tasmania, and here we are talking about a stadium that, quite frankly, we cannot afford. We cannot afford it when people's health is at risk, when teachers need a pay rise and when we have ramping going on like there's no tomorrow. This is absolutely disgusting, and you're rubbing into the face of Tasmania some new, you-beaut stadium that has some automatic roof on it! What planet are you on, Rockliff?</para>
<para>I can tell you. Here' a go for you. Try it, Rockliff: come on, Rocky, stick your chest out; let's see what you've got. I can tell you, instead we could have $375 million to spend on helping us lift our literacy rates, reduce our elective surgery times, and seal and resurface our roads. And they say, 'Give us a stadium or we'll shoot.' I say to you, Rocky: tell them to pull the God damned trigger and try their luck. Go on Rocky; stick your chest out.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the outset I would like to put on record our support for a Tasmanian AFL and AFLW team. Nearly every Tasmanian would want to see the AFL be a truly national game, and having an AFL team and an AFLW team in Tasmania makes that a reality.</para>
<para>Having said that, I'm also on the record as asking, why is it that Tasmania somehow has to jump through hoops and other hurdles that other states haven't had to jump through? Why are conditions being put on Tasmania receiving an AFL side that other states haven't had to put up with? This is a really interesting discussion around priorities. What I have to say right here and right now is that we have Senator Lambie's network obviously opposed to the stadium, we have the federal Liberal team nearly all opposed to the stadium and I think the Greens might be opposed to the stadium as well. What that all comes down to is that we have a premier back home who isn't listening. He's not listening to his own team. He's not listening to other federal representatives. But also he's not listening to the people on the street, because nearly everyone I've spoken to has indicated that there are other things that the Tasmanian government should be looking at. There are other priorities, and they go to health, hospitals, housing and education.</para>
<para>My own state Labor colleagues have been calling for Premier Rockliff to change his decision to allocate $375 million to a stadium that we shouldn't have to build just so we get our Tasmanian team. They have talked about people coming up to them and asking: 'Why can't we put that money to hospitals? Why can't we put that money to housing? We're in desperate need.' In fact, Premier Rockliff is on record as asking the federal government for injections of cash to help in those other areas—just extraordinary!</para>
<para>So, I hope Premier Rockliff is listening to this debate and, more importantly, I hope the AFL CEO, Gillon McLachlan, is listening to this debate, because, quite frankly, they should be ashamed of themselves that they have put a condition on a Tasmanian team, hoops that no other state has had to jump through. It would be good to be able to have our young players here playing for a Tasmanian side. I just hope that Premier Rockliff listens to not only the people here but, more importantly, the community back home.</para>
<para>I'm also on the record saying that the Australian people elected an Albanese government on a platform of collaboration with and respect for all levels of government. Respect, in this sense, means that we will wait for a business case from the Tasmanian government before reaching a decision. When we talk about business cases, this is about a business case that needs to stack up.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's called walking both sides of the fence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, that is completely incorrect, Senator Whish-Wilson. I have been very upfront when I've been asked about this by the media. This is the position the government has made clear from the very get-go. If there is a business case that comes forward—there isn't a business case at the moment, and nothing has been presented to this government—we have said that we will consider it on its merits. But it has to stack up. Quite frankly, Premier Rockliff should really be looking at his priorities.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am pleased to make a contribution to this debate to give context to some of the things I have said publicly in Tasmania on this issue. It is something I feel strongly about, and I don't resile from anything I've said. I, with Senator Brown and Senator Lambie, and I suspect others in this debate, support Tasmania getting a team. We deserve it. We have a fine AFL history. We've provided some of the best players in the AFL's history over many years, and that's something we could continue to do with a team of our own, and with an AFLW team.</para>
<para>I don't agree with the idea of the federal government funding a stadium, but I'm not going to let Senator Brown and the Australian Labor Party off the hook that easily. You can't come in and say that the Premier of Tasmania, Mr Rockliff, isn't listening and then say that you haven't made your minds up yet. The Australian government has to actually put a decision on record at some point. I look forward to the day that that happens, and going out and listening to the community is a good start to do that.</para>
<para>I do want to make a couple of points around the stadium and the Tasmanian government. Any day of the week I'd back Premier Rockliff over opposition leader White, because the Tasmanian Labor Party can't even come up with a position. They've got to go and have a taxpayer funded referendum to figure out whether they support the stadium! They want to spend taxpayers' money to figure out what position they should have to fund a stadium with taxpayers' money. I tell you what, at least I know where I stand. Premier Rockliff knows where he stands. The Labor Party, federally and at a state level, don't know where they stand.</para>
<para>I'll go back to a point that Senator Brown made which I do agree with. I know Senator Brown is a fine Tasmanian who actually does have her state's interests at heart—I know that very clearly—along with her Tasmanian colleagues. The AFL should take note: they should not treat Tasmanians as mugs. They landed an historic deal for broadcast rights—$4.5 billion. It's historic—self-described, private money. Why aren't they putting any of that into the construction of a stadium. Why aren't they being asked to fund this arrangement that would enable us to get a team? If it's so important to them, to the club presidents, for us to have a team, why don't they do something about it? Instead of asking the taxpayers of Tasmania to foot the bill—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Carol Brown</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why doesn't Jeremy stand up?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I tell you what, Senator Brown, if you want to stand up and say that the Australian government won't fund a stadium, you do it today. You've got an opportunity—there's another Labor speaker—and I am looking forward to that being put on the record. But, if your view is the AFL should fund it, then make that clear in the next contribution and the Australian government won't fund it. We should be putting the asset as a united team on the AFL, as has been suggested by Senator Lambie, to fund the stadium. Let's get them to do what they're telling us we need to do and not have Tasmanians have to choose between whether they get Commonwealth funding for a hospital bed or a football stadium. Senator Lambie is right, and we should be backing this point. Gillon McLachlan and the AFL should be doing the right thing by every person who wants an AFL team. They should be funding it. That $4.5 billion sloshing around over the next few years could go to something good, like building a stadium if that's what they think we need to have.</para>
<para>Having said that, though, Senator Brown was also right on the fact that we are the only jurisdiction being asked to build a stadium, just to have what everyone else has. They love picking on the little state. Yes, we have 12 senators and I think it's time we made our voices heard, collectively. The AFL can no longer treat us like mugs. If they have a really good case to make, I hope they make it. I hope they can tell the Australian government why using $375 million dollars of that finite resource, taxpayers' money, is better spent on this than on anything else—than on housing, than on more roads, than on hospital beds or on sorting out the scourge of family and domestic violence. If the AFL actually wants to point to reasons for why funding a stadium with taxpayer money is more important than funding any of the things I just mentioned, I would love to hear it.</para>
<para>That's because when I go out and face the voters, they are not going to take the lines that the AFL might offer me. I'd love it if they had to go out and face the electors like members of parliament have to. But they don't; they can get away with seeking to blackmail our state. But we should not allow that to happen. The AFL should do the right thing and the Labor Party should make clear what their position is—state and federal.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I say, Senator Duniam, that you and I get on pretty well. But I'm disappointed to hear you say that the state Labor Party haven't put their position or that they support it. They do not, and have been very clear for months that they don't support it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why do they want a referendum then?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They've been clear about it for months! You must read the newspapers; you know that they've come out and said they don't support it. Also, can I just say—and I will come to this a bit later—that we have not been asked for any money.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So if you haven't been asked, give us your position!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What I'm saying is that Minister Rockliff really couldn't organise a chook raffle. If he wants money, he has asked for money for other things.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bilyk, please direct your comments through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My apologies, Mr Acting Deputy President, you're correct. I should know better, but Senator Duniam knows, through you, chair, that the state Liberal Party have not actually approached us for money, I presume because they can't get a business case to together. Seriously, they couldn't run a chook raffle down there; they are hopeless! As Senator Brown said, we support—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're open to it! You're open to funding it!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I can hardly hear myself, Mr Acting Deputy President.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! You're quite right, Senator Bilyk. Senators on my left will be quiet. Senator Bilyk.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Lambie for the MPI today because it gives us a chance to highlight those challenges that Tasmanians are facing around health, housing and education. And also in the public sector, where the workers are so overworked that they're having to go on strike because there aren't enough of them and they're not paid enough—they haven't had a wage increase in years. We have a state Liberal government that is just walking all over people, saying they want to build this amazing stadium.</para>
<para>I'm often one of the first to complain when Tasmania gets left off the map. We know that happens a lot. Tasmania is an AFL state and always has been. We do deserve our own AFL and AFLW teams, not just as a matter of state pride but also for the economic benefits they deliver. As Senator Duniam said, our state has produced a great slew of AFL players—names that people in here would know, not just those from Tasmania: Daryl Baldock, Peter Hudson and Ian Stewart. And if I want to mention a few other people, my husband, being a Richmond fan, would probably like me to add Matthew Richardson and Jack Riewoldt. All in all, Tasmania has actually supplied over 300 players at the top level—300. Eight games a year are already played on the AFL fixture in Tasmania, with a capacity for more people and a capacity for more games.</para>
<para>So, a Tasmanian team is really a no-brainer. Obviously we have to have a Tasmanian team. But we should be able to do it on a level playing field with other states, not have a gun held to our heads by the AFL. Unfortunately it wasn't initially the AFL that brought this issue up; it was the former premier who added this into the debate. Why he ever did that I don't know, but it was not part of what the AFL put to people. But we shouldn't have to jump through extra hoops. It's not right. I come in here and I argue for territory rights, because I think they should have the same rights as states. And it's the same when it comes to Tassie and footy. Why is Tassie treated like the Cinderella of the football world? I don't understand why.</para>
<para>We've proven that we can get people to football games. We play games already at the stadiums that already exist. There are two stadiums that exist. It's not as though we don't have a stadium. There are already two stadiums that exist. So, why does the Premier of Tasmania want to have another stadium built, at an enormous cost, as Senator Lambie and Senator Brown have said, while people are waiting to get on the housing list? We've got more people than ever on the housing list. We've had the state government say they're going to build 10,000 houses. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens have long been on the record as supporting Tasmanian men's and women's teams in the AFL. Tasmania is a genuine footy state. We deserve teams in the national competitions. In fact, they will not be national competitions unless they have Tasmanian sides in them. And we thought we were on the way, because we knew that we had cleared every single hurdle, even the blatantly unfair and unreasonable ones, that were put in our path by the AFL. But then, not long ago, at five minutes to midnight, into town swans AFL CEO Mr Gill McLachlan. Having driven straight past the homeless Tasmanians sleeping in tents on the Domain, he arrogantly demanded that we spend $1 billion on a sports stadium we don't need, instead of building them the homes they so desperately need. Worse than that, he said that unless we build this sports stadium that we don't need we will not get teams in the AFL.</para>
<para>This is a disgrace. It's an insult to Tasmanians. It is nothing less than a blackmail of our state. He's got no right, and the AFL has no right to blackmail our state like this. Nor should the state Liberal government so weakly cower in the face of the AFL's demands, because it's all about the money for the AFL and for Mr McLachlan. You could not find a more literal example of the phrase 'moving the goalposts'. For nearly two decades the AFL has been happy for Hawthorn to play at York Park, accepting millions of dollars of the state's money to buy the matches. We've been happy for games to be played—North Melbourne, at Bellerive in the south again—millions of dollars of taxpayers money to buy those games into Tasmania. And now, at the eleventh hour, with all the ridiculous arguments against the Tasmanian team having being carefully dismantled, apparently we don't have a good-enough stadium.</para>
<para>Well, give us a break. They were good enough for the AFL for the last 20 years and they will be good enough for the next 20 years. The state does not have $1 billion to spend on a footy stadium we don't need while thousands languish on our public housing waiting lists and on our elective surgery waiting lists. Aboriginal Tasmanians were promised a truth and reconciliation park as the centrepiece of the Macquarie Point development. They've been working on it for years—a place of healing, a place of storytelling, of connection and of country. Then they woke up not long ago to the news that a stadium we don't even need would take priority over a reconciliation and truth park and that the park could quite literally languish in the shadow of a stadium—no consultation, no communication, just: 'Here it is; like it or lump it.' Well, news for the AFL and Mr McLachlan: Tasmanians don't like it and are not prepared to lump it. Tasmanians are literally dying while waiting for ambulances, or dying in ramped ambulances because there are no hospital beds available to save their lives. It is offensive in the extreme to spend over a billion dollars on a stadium like this that we don't need while our hospital system buckles under the strain of years of underinvestment and so many Tasmanians are sleeping rough.</para>
<para>Only the federal Labor government can save us from the Tasmanian Liberal government. The Greens urge Mr Albanese to listen to the calls from across the spectrum, from across the Tasmanian community, and refuse to fund a single dollar of this massive white elephant. If he does that, if he refuses to fund it, it will not be built. And I'll tell you now: if it's not built, sooner or later we will get our teams in the AFL and the AFLW but those teams must be delivered on reasonable terms, not at the expense of Tasmanians who most need help and certainly not at the expense of a pure-and-simple obscene attempt to blackmail Tasmanians into spending a billion dollars of public money nobody can afford on building a stadium nobody needs.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for the discussion has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Assistant Treasurer</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Senate will now consider the proposal from Senator Bragg:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The failure of Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones to appropriately consult with regard to the inclusion of civil penalties in the Financial Accountability Regime legislation, and his subsequent backflip under instruction from the Treasurer and Prime Minister, thereby creating significant uncertainty in the financial sector and again demonstrating that this Minister is incapable of measured policy development and administration.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing o</inline> <inline font-style="italic">rders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand informal arrangements have been made to allocate specific times to each of the speakers in today's debate. With the concurrence of the Senate, I ask the clerks to set the clock accordingly.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a contribution on this very important matter of public importance, which is in relation to the competency of the Assistant Treasurer. I note the last contribution from Senator McKim. We also heard from Senator McKim on Friday, who set out some of the issues that members of this place have been having in their engagement with the Assistant Treasurer. It appears as if a deal with Mr Jones is not worth the paper it's written on. In relation to this minister's maladministration of this portfolio, there are a litany of examples which I seek to catalogue today for the Senate's consideration.</para>
<para>The matter before us is the FAR package of bills, which is about ensuring that financial executives are held to account under Australian law and that there are appropriate penalties where there are problems over which they preside. This bill has been totally botched by Mr Jones. This bill also contains the compensation scheme of last resort, which I would say is a very interesting idea indeed—that the Commonwealth should compensate where there has been a problem in the market which may have been caused by a market operator or may have been caused by a regulator not doing its job. The point is that Mr Jones, in opposition, campaigned for much higher compensation caps in relation to this bill, but when he introduced the bill himself as a minister he reverted back to the position that the coalition had in government. Mr Jones is again showing that he is unable to keep a position for a period of time.</para>
<para>When you reflect upon his tenure as the Minister for Financial Services and the Assistant Treasurer, Mr Jones's first priority was to strip transparency from superannuation payments to unions, banks and insurance companies. Mr Jones has chosen to remove transparency in a compulsory savings scheme, which is a remarkable turn of events. That someone would come into a new portfolio and, as their first act, remove the ability of a person, a worker, to see where their own money is being sent is a remarkable beginning.</para>
<para>Mr Jones has had another defeat today, with the government deciding it would remove from its own legislation the faith based carve-out which Mr Jones proposed in opposition. This policy was his main policy on superannuation. This is his key policy that he took to the election. A carve out from the superannuation performance test for religious based funds has been dropped today by Mr Jones after the Senate gave Mr Jones some advice. I note the contributions of Senator Smith and Senator McKim during the committee process. The Senate told Mr Jones that it was not going to be able to support this strange idea that someone in a religious based fund, of which there are only a few, should be prepared to accept a poorer return than a person in a non-religious based fund. It's a very interesting precedent indeed for someone who has spent most of their career arguing the virtues of compulsory super. If I was a great supporter of the compulsory superannuation scheme, I would not open it up to these sorts of precedents, because once you open the door to one idea that is not about the best financial performance of the fund then you open the floodgates to every crazy idea. And I can assure the Senate that there are many crazy ideas in relation to the expenditure of superannuation funds.</para>
<para>Today, we look at the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> and there is an article referring to Mr Jones which is called 'Stephen Jones is out of his depth.' It says here:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Across an otherwise competent frontbench, the Albanese government's Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones stands out like dog's balls.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the six months since he took charge of the ministry, the Member for Whitlam has chewed up the furniture, rubbed his bum on the carpet and cocked his leg over his parliamentary colleagues, the financial sector and the voters of Australia.</para></quote>
<para>That is in the <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline> today. I think it's a pretty fair assessment actually of Mr Jones' tenure—having removed the transparency requirements for super, having failed to protect consumers in the superannuation sector, having failed to deliver any cryptocurrency reforms and now having lost his key policy—the religious carve out for the super funds. There are only two funds, none of which have MySuper funds. That is a remarkable tenure. He is maybe the worst assistant treasurer ever.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Goodness gracious me. Here we are. It's obviously term four and everybody is tired and has got the sillies. This is the greatest effort inside baseball that you could imagine. This is the week where the government is going to introduce sensible reforms in industrial relations that are going to make the country a better place. They are going to be good for our workplaces. This is the week that the government's going to introduce what the last government couldn't do, couldn't bring itself to do, reforms to introduce a national integrity commission, National Anti-Corruption Commission.</para>
<para>This is the week where the modern Liberal Party—which had decided to tie its fortunes to the bunch of rat bags, nutters and conspiracy theorists who are enlarging themselves in the Liberal Party's base in Victoria—decide to tie themselves to some people who you wouldn't want to have a beer with. You would avoid them at parties. It's the extremist takeover of the Victorian Liberal Party. They've seen the culmination and the impact of that strategy. What was the outcome? The re-election of the Andrews government, fewer Liberals, a few more Nationals and they've preferenced straight home and elected a few more Greens in a few inner-city seats. What utter genius.</para>
<para>In this week, where we're going to see the former Prime Minister being censured, what is Senator Bragg in here talking about? Some arcane issue to do with the negotiation of financial sector reform. What is the real backdrop to this? What's really going on? The previous government, and the previous government before that, resisted. They fought the idea of having the Hayne royal commission tooth and nail. They didn't want it. They didn't want it to happen, to protect the interests of people who had done unscrupulous things in the financial services sector. Senator Bragg's friends have done unscrupulous things. It's their interests that he's in here trying to protect.</para>
<para>Remember that they fought so hard to stop there being a proper inquiry into all of those matters. Then finally, they were forced—dragged, kicking and screaming—into having a royal commission. It was headed by former Justice Hayne, who did a very solid piece of work, a very careful piece of work. And don't forget the photos. There is a lot of bring 'back Josh stuff' going now on in Victoria: 'Bring back Josh!' We had an incremental few degrees—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're avoiding the topic! You are, Tim!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Don't you worry about that, I'm coming back to the topic. On all the 'bring back Josh' stuff: if something goes really badly, try it again. I urge the Victorian Liberal Party to do that, that would be good. But we can never forget the photos of Justice Hayne and the former Treasurer; I have never seen a more unhappy couple. There was one who actually believed in proper financial regulation and one who was actually doing everything that he could to avoid it.</para>
<para>And then we saw the sorry months and years that followed that announcement. No reform—nothing happened. Now we have a government that is introducing reforms in a steady, careful and methodical way. Reform is difficult, but I find this MPI resolution really interesting. It's got two sentences in it. Within those two sentences, it attacks the government for not consulting and then condemns the government for consulting. This is an incoherent, out-of-place and misconceived MPI. I expect we'll see many more of them in 2023.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I placed the facts of this matter on the record in this chamber last week and I don't intend to labour them. But, without any shadow of a doubt, the Assistant Treasurer and I did have an agreement to include in the financial accountability regime civil penalties for people who breach their accountability obligations.</para>
<para>But what we saw last week was not just Labor refusing to honour an agreement, it was one of those moments when Australians got a bit of a peek through the curtains at who actually runs this place. Last week was as transparent an exercise of power by the big business community in this country as you would ever want to see. Within 24 hours of the agreement going public to put million-dollar fines on dodgy bankers who ripped off their customers, the Labor Party folded in a screaming heap under the weight of lobbying by the big banks. I remind people that these are the very banks who donated well north of $400,000 in the last 12 months that we have donations data for in this country. Money talks, and it talks very loudly indeed in this place.</para>
<para>The other thing was the way the banks steamrolled the Labor Party. They weren't even slightly shy or ashamed about it. They were naked in their exercise of power; in fact, they wanted everyone in this place to see that they made the government renege on the agreement. The banks wanted everyone in the duopoly here, Labor and the LNP, who might be thinking about pushing for something that curbs bankers' power or who might be wanting to tilt the scales in favour of the customers and against the big bankers, to know that in fact it is the big bankers who are in charge of this place. And, my word, they've got the Labor Party on a short leash. We saw that last week.</para>
<para>They don't really need the Liberal Party on a leash because they have been bred to be loyal to the big banks, which is why Senator Bragg's motion is, quite frankly, a little bit of rubbish. The inclusion of civil penalties for individuals who breach their accountability obligations was consulted on by the former government and was the subject of consideration by the Senate Economics Committee into both the previous government's and this government's bill, so the idea that it's come out of nowhere is absolute tosh. The policy is straightforward, the public benefit is abundantly clear to the public, and we now know the only people who don't want million dollar fines are the dodgy bankers who rip off their customers—the dodgy bankers that have both the major parties in this place right where they want them.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I must say Senator McKim is more forgiving of the Assistant Treasurer than I would be in his place. I was quite staggered—I was surprised—when I heard the circumstances of the deal that was reneged on. I first heard the term 'renege' when I used to play cards with my grandparents. If you played the wrong card—you were meant to play a club or whatever and you played a heart—you reneged. That is the first time I heard the term. That's what's happened in this case.</para>
<para>I want to quote from the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> article of 24 November 2022 written by Rachel Clun. I can try to understand how the Assistant Treasurer met with Senator McKim and maybe did a deal he shouldn't have done. I could understand if he actually approached Senator McKim and said to him: 'I'm sorry about that. I overstepped the mark. I didn't really understand the consequences of what I was doing. The Treasurer's come down on me like a tonne of bricks. I've got to retreat.' I can understand if he did that; I can understand him making a mistake. We're all human. But what really distressed me, as someone who, over the last 3½ years, has gotten to know Senator McKim as a man of his word, is the Assistant Treasurer went to the press, as follows:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Jones said there had been no final agreement on the Greens' amendments, and there was clearly plenty of stakeholder concern about civil penalties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"We've asked them what it would take to get their support for that and other bills," he said. "There'd been no sign-off on anything."</para></quote>
<para>He actually went to the media and, in my view, cast imputations on Senator McKim. I don't know how many people were in the room, but there was Senator McKim and the Assistant Treasurer—they can't both be right. The same article quotes Senator McKim:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"There was 100 per cent, categorically a deal. We looked each other in the eye and shook hands," he said.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"If the minister is saying there was no agreement he is not fit to be a minister. This is a disgraceful move to renege—</para></quote>
<para>there's that word 'renege'—</para>
<quote><para class="block">on our agreement."</para></quote>
<para>Only one of them can be right. We're here in this chamber; we all know Senator McKim. I take Senator McKim at his word, absolutely. And I query: why didn't the Assistant Treasurer come out and just honestly say he overstepped the mark, he made a mistake? Why didn't he do that? Why did he come out and say there was no final agreement when Senator McKim is so certain that there was an agreement? Why do that? Why cast aspersions on one of our fellow senators? It was totally unnecessary, and, to me, that is the most concerning thing about this whole matter.</para>
<para>A senator from this place—and I don't care which party—actually approached a member of the executive and raised legitimate concerns. I was Chair of the Economics Legislation Committee in the last parliament, so I was part of the reporting process for this legislation. The level of civil penalties that senior executives in our banking industry should rightly face in the course of material misconduct is a very legitimate concern. Some of the things that came out of the Hayne royal commission are absolutely horrifying. It horrified me as an ex-company secretary and general counsel of a publicly listed company. What concerns me is that every senator in this place who approaches a member of the executive to have a discussion about proposed amendments to a piece of legislation should have faith that the member of the executive will stay true to their bargain, that they'll deliver on the deal. That's the way this place needs to work. It can't work otherwise, if you can't trust the members of the executive to stay true to their word when you engage with them on a matter such as this. That is the thing which most disturbs me: that a member of this place, a senator in this place, who cares passionately about this matter, went in and had a discussion with the Assistant Treasurer, in good faith thought they had a deal, and then the Assistant Treasurer tipped a bucket on him in the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline>, in the public media. Absolutely astounding. I think all senators should be concerned about this.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It seems Stephen Jones is to the Labor Party as Josh Frydenberg was to the Liberals: the bank's man in the government. Whether it's defending the right of the banks to bail in the cash in your account; whether it's turning a blind eye to banks closing their rural bank branches, which has increased this year under Minister Jones; whether it's allowing the King's currency to be shunned so the banks can force everyone onto electronic banking, with every transaction helping bank profits and every sale providing a data- and profit-rich environment for the banks; or whether, as it is today, it's letting banking executives off the hook for egregious behaviour, that should be criminal. These hideous, inhuman banking crimes were brought to light during the Senate's Select Committee on Lending to Primary Production Customers in 2017, an inquiry that Senator Pauline Hanson got and that I chaired. Four years later, not one of those victims has been compensated nor a banker prosecuted. Minister Chalmers is protecting the banks over the best interests of the people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>WALSH () (): I'd really like to thank Senator Bragg for the opportunity to talk about failures of measured policy development and administration in this place, as per the terms of his motion. When it comes to failures of policy development and administration, there is no better example than those opposite, starting with the very legislation that is the subject of this motion: the Financial Accountability Regime legislation.</para>
<para>This is actually the former government's legislation. It's legislation that they promised and that they failed to deliver. They failed to get it through their parliament. This is legislation that is based on reforms recommended by the Hayne royal commission. It's legislation that sat gathering dust under the previous government from 2019.</para>
<para>It's legislation that does some incredibly important things for consumers of financial services, including establishing an accountability regime for financial sector companies and establishing a compensation scheme of last resort for victims of financial misconduct. It also implements the reforms recommended by the long-outstanding 2016 <inline font-style="italic">Review of the small amount credit contract laws</inline>, the SACCs review, which said it was urgent to protect vulnerable people from being trapped in unsustainable debt spirals as a result of payday loans and consumer leases that were not operating effectively in this country.</para>
<para>This is a series of really important legislative reforms to protect consumers, which has been sitting there for years, ignored by the previous government. Those opposite basically had to wait for us to get into government to get the work done, just like they had to wait for us to get the work done on another important royal commission, the aged-care royal commission, and its recommendations for more nurses and more care time, which we legislated; just like they waited for us to implement the findings of the <inline font-style="italic">Respect@Work</inline> report; and just like they waited for us to take real action on climate change and legislate net zero targets.</para>
<para>Really, if you want to talk about measured policy development and administration as per the terms of this motion, then look at the Albanese Labor government and what we've delivered in the last six months, doing what the previous government failed to do for almost a decade. They waited for us to introduce a strong and independent National Anti-Corruption Commission, another policy that they promised and yet failed to deliver.</para>
<para>Let's look at the previous government's record on policy development and consultation. We all remember the appropriate consultation undertaken during the sports rorts scheme and the commuter car park scheme. We remember the appropriate consultation for the Building Better Regions Fund. All of those had absolutely nothing to do with measured policy and everything to do with rorting public funds for political gain. If we want to talk about measured administration, let's talk about a Prime Minister who secretly appointed himself to five ministries without the knowledge of the ministers themselves. How did that contribute to measured policy development and administration under the previous government? How on earth did a motion on measured policy administration get through the opposition's processes and make its way to the floor of this chamber? The list of examples goes on and on and on.</para>
<para>The legacy of the previous government is a record of policy failure, of missed opportunities and neglect, of confusion and chaos and not much—what was Senator Bragg's term?—measured policy development and administration to be seen. In the 20 seconds I have remaining it's impossible for me to get through what the Albanese Labor government has actually achieved in just six months: aged-care royal commission reforms to deliver more nurses and more care time, legislating net zero, delivering 10 days paid family domestic violence leave, setting up Jobs and Skills Australia, repealing the nasty and harmful cashless debit card, making medicines cheaper for millions of Australians, getting wages moving for Australians. These are the measured policy responses— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the urgent need for the government to re-list the finance sector reform bills for debate this week. The reforms in these bills are urgent and overdue. The bills would immediately empower ASIC to go after predatory lenders that are avoiding the law. To give an example, the Indigenous Consumer Assistance Network is reporting that lender Cigno is targeting First Nations people and charging around 900 per cent interest on the loans they issue. This is disgusting and clearly exploitative. We have the means to stop this. If the bill passes this week, we could go after Cigno and other predatory lenders and put an end to the sector exploiting the most vulnerable in our community. I urge the government to re-list the bills for consideration by the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What can I say? This motion today is just money for jam. It really just proves what we have been saying for a long time, and that is that the Labor Party is the party for the big end of town. I will slightly disagree with the wording of my good friend and colleague Senator Bragg, whose motion says, 'The failure of Assistant Treasurer Stephen Jones to appropriately consult.' I'd actually disagree with that because, as it turns out, he got all the consulting he needed. He got a phone call from former Queensland Labor Premier Anna Bligh, who of course is now the head of the Australian Banking Association. If you want a good example of just how close the big end of town and the banks are to the Labor Party, look no further than the head of the Australian Banking Association: former Queensland Premier Anna Bligh.</para>
<para>What was Anna Bligh famous for up in Queensland? We call her the minister for privatisation. She sold all the assets that belonged to the Queensland people. She sold the Queensland forestry plantations, which are freehold, for five times earnings. She sold the Port of Brisbane for six times earnings—a 99-year lease for six times earnings. She gave our assets away to her mates in the big end of town and to her mates in the superannuation funds, and she has got her pay back. She's got her 30 pieces of silver.</para>
<para>Who is the master puppet pulling the strings behind former Queensland Premier Anna Bligh? No lesser person than the current minister for agriculture, Senator Murray Watt, who was the chief of staff for all this. We know that the Labor Party is in thick with the big end of town. We hear Senator Watt talking all the time about how he engages with industry groups in agriculture. Let me tell you: as a sixth-generation farmer, we don't engage with industry groups. We're too busy out in the paddock working to be hanging out with the big end of town and the blowhards. No, this is not a party that cares about the workers.</para>
<para>The history of the Labor Party and getting into bed with the big banks goes back. A great example is how they sold the CBA. Senator Ayres was talking earlier about how there was all this bad behaviour in the big banks. I'll tell you why there's bad behaviour in the big banks. It's because you privatised CBA without any regulation. At the same time, you introduced superannuation where, basically, the workers have their money taken from them and given to financial planners, many of whom started working for the big banks. Remember the nineties when CBA bought Colonial Mutual, the National Bank bought National Mutual, Westpac did a joint venture with Bankers Trust and ANZ did a deal with ING. It's the big banks again.</para>
<para>I often say that the industry super funds are good mates with Labor, but it's also the private sector that is very good mates with Labor. As I've always said—and I have to sometimes remind my colleagues on this side of the chamber—Robert Menzies himself said in the Forgotten People speech that the rich and powerful can look after themselves. He made it very clear that we're about people that want to get out of bed every day and put their nose to the grindstone.</para>
<para>The Minister for Financial Services, Stephen Jones, doesn't know if he's Arthur or Martha, because he thought he was going to get in there and save the world. He's suddenly realised that the lobbyists—and I spoke about this last week and the <inline font-style="italic">Courier Mail</inline> reported it—should disclose who pays them. It's not just political parties, because I'll tell you who's pulling the strings in the world, and it's not us. I've often thought about engaging a lobbyist myself to get something done around here because as an elected member, an elected representative of the people, I'm not getting much done.</para>
<para>A phone call from Anna Bligh, and Stephen Jones, the member for Whitlam, suddenly pulls the fees for the big end of town. That is just so typical of the Labor Party of today. They tell me that the seismographs are going off in Bathurst, where Ben Chifley is rolling in his grave. King O'Malley is also rolling in his grave. He is the great man who actually started the Commonwealth Bank way back when, and it was also part of the Reserve Bank, and they actually had a business bank and they funded this stuff.</para>
<para>I think the Labor Party need to take a really good look at themselves because this is not a party that stands up for the working class anymore. They are a party for the big end of town. We know that and we aren't surprised, because the first thing Stephen Jones did was remove the disclosure requirements for super funds. This guy, he's the minister for—as the <inline font-style="italic">Australian </inline><inline font-style="italic">F</inline><inline font-style="italic">inancial </inline><inline font-style="italic">Review</inline>—the dog's proverbial— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Public Accounts and Audit Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Government Response to Report</title>
            <page.no>75</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present a government response to the 492nd report of the Joint Committee of Public Accounts and Audit relating to governance in the stewardship of public resources. I seek leave to have the government response incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The document read as follows—</inline></para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> document </inline> <inline font-style="italic">was </inline> <inline font-style="italic">unavailable at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Northern Australia Joint Select Committee</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Government Response to Report</title>
            <page.no>75</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present a ministerial statement and a government response to two reports of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia relating to the committee's inquiry into the destruction of Indigenous heritage sites at Juukan Gorge. In accordance with the usual practice I seek leave to have the government response incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The document read as follows—</inline></para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The document </inline> <inline font-style="italic">was </inline> <inline font-style="italic">unavailable at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the documents.</para></quote>
<para>I welcome the opportunity to take note of this ministerial statement. As the member for Cowper, Mr Conaghan, said on my behalf in the other place on Thursday of last week, it's always been the coalition's view that the events at Juukan Gorge on 24 May 2020 represented, at the very least, a tragic failure on so many levels in the interactions between Rio and the traditional owners. Those events were so disastrous that they made it very clear that comprehensive work needed to begin, as a matter of urgency, on modernising Indigenous heritage protection laws in Australia. To each of those ends, the coalition fully agrees with many of the elements of the ministerial statement.</para>
<para>I would also like to reiterate comments by the member for Cowper about the importance of the work on these issues by the Joint Select Committee on Northern Australia. That committee's work led to a series of crucial findings and recommendations, and it also led, during the years of the coalition government, to a range of work guided by our then environment minister, Ms Ley, and by the then Indigenous affairs minister, Mr Wyatt. That work was underpinned by funding in the 2021-22 budget that was specifically devoted to developing an engagement process to identify the best options for reform. As we said throughout that time, we always considered it vital that this process be centred on the views and experiences of traditional owners.</para>
<para>We're also pleased that Ms Plibersek's statement now clarifies that the government intends to continue in those directions. On that note I should add that the coalition is comfortable in principle with the government's decision to accept the first seven recommendations of the joint standing committee's 2021 report and to continue to explore the eighth. In saying all of that, though, I think all of us should be concerned about what has come to light in the wake of the statement last Thursday. I'm specifically referring to the multiple subsequent media reports that traditional owners in the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura people say they've not been consulted with properly by Minister Plibersek. The PKKP Aboriginal Corporation chairman, Burchell Hayes, has in fact gone as far as saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It seems like a media event in Canberra is more important than giving PKKP people the respect of asking us what can be done to try and stop something like the destruction of the Juukan rock shelters happening again …</para></quote>
<para>He also said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We would have expected the minister would want to meet with us before making a public announcement about our country and cultural heritage.</para></quote>
<para>The government should take note, especially when Ms Plibersek has made such big things of the work that had been done, supposedly, with the traditional owners. It's hard to see how it can be said on the one hand that you're fully committed to, 'full and genuine partnership with First Nations people,' as stated in the booklet on page 5, and also on page 8, where it says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the importance of putting First Nations peoples at the heart of decision-making for issues that affect Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples.</para></quote>
<para>when it turns out, as it has now been revealed, that there has been no consultation with traditional owners. They're left feeling disrespected and, understandably, very insulted. This is, plainly, unacceptable.</para>
<para>I will add that there are other part of the ministerial statement and the accompanying booklet that leave the coalition with some concerns. Foremost among those is that there is really very little in the way of firm time lines and KPIs for progress. On page 5 of the booklet the wording says that options to reform First Nations' cultural heritage protection will merely be provided for consideration in this term of government. I think Australians deserve and, in fact, have a right to be sceptical about, exactly what this means. It sounds like the wheels of government are now turning very slowly on this, and that any potential and genuine progress might well be a long way away.</para>
<para>More positively, though, I do want to acknowledge that the ministerial statement says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms are not about stopping development, or halting progress.</para></quote>
<para>Industry, and the resources sector in particular, plainly need to be consulted closely in the consideration of new laws. Moreover the government does need to honour the point that the overwhelming majority of companies in modern Australia are very committed to environmental protection and conservation. They need to contribute to this process rather than being excluded from it. We urge the government to make sensible and balanced decisions here that align environmental protection with sensible, measured and sustainable economic development.</para>
<para>In the meantime, I want to return to where I began by saying that there is a resounding agreement between the government and the opposition on the overwhelming majority of issues covered by this ministerial statement. I also reiterate the comments of my colleague the member for Cowper in paying tribute to the traditional owners of the Juukan Gorge for their ongoing determination to preserve and honour their beautiful and phenomenal cultural heritage, and in thanking all the many people who have been involved in the past 2½ years in trying to turn an environmental tragedy into a much more positive and inspiring future.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also wish to take note of this ministerial statement and make a short statement. There's no amount of money that can restore what was destroyed at Juukan Gorge on 24 May 2020. No reparations will heal the anguish, the devastation and the loss inflicted on the PKKP traditional owners by the blasting of those rock shelters. I have familial links there and, before coming to work in this place, I had the pleasure of walking and working alongside them to discuss ways in which they can create opportunities for their elders and their young people. From health care to continuation of law practices, we collectively put our minds to work to improve the economic and social benefits for the PKKP people. I'm forever grateful to them for allowing me to share this experience, especially Uncle Burchell Hayes.</para>
<para>The PKKP mob come from an area that is 10,888 square kilometres, between Onslow and Tom Price in Western Australia. If you drive to the top of Mount Nameless, which is in fact its Western name, or Jarndunmunha, which is the Eastern Guruma name—meaning 'place of the rock wallabies'—you can get a wonderful view of the majestic Hammersley ranges.</para>
<para>The lack of legislative oversight at federal and state levels has resulted in the absolute destruction of tens of thousands of years of cultural heritage, and, since this monumental disaster, there's been little progress shown by any government to prevent Juukan 2.0 from occurring across this country. In fact, nearly every mining project has a cultural heritage tenor to it, particularly in my home state of Western Australia, which is the engine room of mining in this country.</para>
<para>Last week the environment minister, on behalf of the Australian government, tabled their response to the interim and final reports by the Joint Select Committee on Northern Australia on the destruction of Juukan Gorge—a committee I served on to deliver this final report and its recommendations, alongside an open letter that we wrote to the Premier of Western Australia about the WA cultural heritage legislation, which I nicknamed 'the mining enabling legislation', because there are plenty of loopholes in it.</para>
<para>Federal and state ministers, the Prime Minister, in fact, and other state premiers need to get out on country and visit some of the sacred places like Juukan Gorge. They need to listen to traditional owners to truly hear, see and feel the importance of these places, and to understand the link to our rich biodiversity and our totemic systems, our artefacts and our sacred sites. They are our museums and cathedrals, our artwork, our scientific knowledge and our cosmology, which is about our religion and our spirituality. Consultation cannot be a box-ticking exercise. There has to be genuine, meaningful and collaborative engagement. That is what is required.</para>
<para>Internationally, people were shocked and outraged by the actions of Rio Tinto. 'A national disgrace', 'A dark day in Australia's history', some of you in this place might recall, were some of the headlines that were touted. My colleague on the committee and fellow Western Australian Senator Dodson is quoted as having called 'incremental genocide' the mining company's behaviour in the lead-up to the destruction of the Juukan Gorge caves.</para>
<para>It's time for all Australians to see the destruction of Juukan Gorge by an ignorant mining company as a wake-up call, but, more importantly, for those who were in the opposition at the time to do what they said they would do. We will now see if, as a newly anointed government, they are up for the challenge. Australian cultural heritage sites, whether they are significant to First Nations people or to other cultures, deserve protection in this country. As the PKKP mob have said, 'The Juukan Gorge disaster is a tragedy not only for our people. It is also a tragedy for the heritage of all Australians and indeed humanity as a whole.'</para>
<para>Tourists all over the world visit Stonehenge, the pyramids of Egypt and ancient temples across the Asian continent, but it is here in Australia that the world's oldest surviving culture endures. It is in the dynamic, resources-rich landscapes that First Nations culture and tradition endures, uninterrupted for tens of thousands of years until one day a billionaire decides to blow it up, at the stroke of a pen. The federal and state governments of this country have failed to protect this profoundly important place at Juukan—with 46,000 years of continuous occupation, the sacred place of tradition and sharing of knowledge. Juukan was blown up just a few days before National Reconciliation Week, when elders were set to share their cultural teachings with the next generation. Traditional owners are given, through their birthright, the right to speak, protect and care for country.</para>
<para>I'd like to offer you an example of an intangible cultural heritage so some of you might actually understand or try to connect with my definition of what that means as a First Nations woman. When I gave birth to my daughters, I took the placentas and buried them on my mother's country because we are a matriarchal culture. I put them next to the olive tree on the old cottages site of the New Norcia Mission, where five generations of my ancestors lived during the time their children were placed in the care of missionaries. My family have practised this for generations, and, to my old people, this means that their cultural heritage will be preserved—and, as I teach my children the stories, the songlines, the trade routes and the legacy of this place, the importance of their connection. The two Dreaming tracks that are from this place link them to the ningarn, which is the echidna in the Noongar language, and the dwert, which is the dingo, and across the country. It gives them their responsibilities for protecting their totems.</para>
<para>Cultural heritage is more than native title rights. It is the knowledge that is passed to us through our stories and our oral teachings. I'm fortunate enough to have two black parents, who gave me this knowledge on both sides. Cultural heritage provides information about place, history, story, dance and our connection. It goes to the things which are environmental, cultural, spiritual and familial. This is the way we learn, and we teach our generations to have a reciprocal relationship with our boodjar, which is the Noongar name for earth. It comes from the word boodjarri, which means pregnant. We are born through her spiritual being, which is Mother Earth, to a place and a time that was created by our ancestors. Therefore, there is no manual or book that we hand over for those decisions about our land and our sea country or the transfer of title. We should retain the power to say no to industry and, in particular, to mining companies. This is why proponents and governments should not now, or ever, be able to make decisions about First Nations cultural heritage in this country.</para>
<para>I welcome and I agree with the environment minister's acknowledgement that state laws are too weak and that Juukan Gorge was not an isolated mistake. This was a result of a failing system a, a white colonial system that has failed First Nations people, and it will continue to fail us until something drastically changes. The federal and state government also continue to fail First Nations people until we have free, prior and informed consent, until we are considered equal partners in negotiations, and until we have truth-telling about the destruction. The people in this place must listen to the ways in which we fight every day to keep our culture alive, and its links to our heritage.</para>
<para>The recommendations of this report require these principles to be respected, and I will keep fighting and hold this government accountable to make sure that they are seen through. Today, it's been reported that the PKKP people, through their Aboriginal corporation, have reached an agreement with Rio Tinto on a legacy foundation that will deliver a social and economic program, which will include elements such as education and training opportunities, business development, capacity building and preservation of and advocacy for cultural heritage and land.</para>
<para>First Nations people are finding something enduringly positive in the greatest tragedy, as we always do, and the mechanism for our survival. But, without meaningful and lasting action, this won't be the last tragedy for First Nations cultural heritage, and we anxiously await the government's latest test, at Murajuga, to save our songlines and our rock art from destruction by another corporate entity that claims to be the friend of First Nations people.</para>
<para>I look forward to hearing about this government's approach in relation to legislative reform, to ensure there is accountability and transparency. The interim report, called <inline font-style="italic">Never </inline><inline font-style="italic">a</inline><inline font-style="italic">gain,</inline> and the final report, called <inline font-style="italic">A</inline><inline font-style="italic"> way forward,</inline> must ensure that the destruction of cultural heritage does, in fact, never happen again, and we do find a way forward. We need to make sure that the destruction of cultural heritage ensures the stopping of disenfranchisement and the dislocation of First Nations people from their country. Pivoting out of extractive mining into regenerative and renewable sources is a way for the future.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>DODSON () (): I rise to speak on the response to the Juukan Gorge inquiry. I was a member of the committee that did the inquiry. On Thursday, the Minister for the Environment and Water tabled the government's response to the interim and the final reports of the inquiry into the destruction of 46,000-year-old caves and Juukan Gorge in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. The destruction of the rock shelters at Juukan Gorge was a wake-up call for the nation It was absolutely necessary that the parliament thoroughly interrogated how such an atrocity could occur within existing legal frameworks. As a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia, we had the important task of finding out what went wrong. We needed to understand how to stop it from happening again. I want to acknowledge the resilience and the strength of the PKKP throughout this inquiry. Their integrity and capacity to leverage opportunity by participating even when they had every right to be disengaged has been commendable.</para>
<para>As a committee, we adopted a unique process to ensure cultural safety for witnesses and to show respect for what had been lost. We went on country to hear directly from the people so tragically affected by the needless destruction of culture and the causing of pain to themselves. We held roundtables so that hearings were more accessible and less formal and encouraged conversations and knowledge sharing. As a result, all the committee members could see and feel in person the deep impact of lost culture. I commend the work of my fellow committee members, particularly chairman Warren Entsch, Warren Snowdon and Rachel Siewert for their care and commitment to this inquiry.</para>
<para>The inquiry's interim and final reports demonstrated quite clearly that this incident was endemic of a broken cultural heritage system. Rio Tinto's failures were appalling and systematic of a 'don't care about culture' approach. But they were also legally entitled to do what they did. This destruction could happen anywhere, by any mining or development company and even by governments. There are still existing section 18 notices under the Western Australian Aboriginal Cultural Heritage Act that are active in Western Australia, and there are sites that are just as much at risk. We currently have a system that doesn't protect First Nations culture but equally isn't clear for the proponents of development. We have a scheme that allows destruction of heritage that runs very close to destroying evidence of 60,000 years of First Nations history. While it is legal, proponents should not presume that they have a social licence to cause harm within an existing broken system. In public protests and outrage, Australians showed what occurred at Juukan Gorge should not have been legal and was definitely not moral. They must adopt processes of free, prior and informed consent. They must do better.</para>
<para>I'm proud the Albanese government has accepted seven of the eight recommendations to reform the Australian cultural heritage system. The future cultural heritage system needs to be strong, and it needs to protect that culture for our families and our communities. We have committed to developing standalone cultural heritage legislation in the future. It will be developed in partnership with the First Nations Heritage Protection Alliance. It will holistically adopt reforms to address the existing flaws. In this co-design process, we're working through the final recommendation about ongoing portfolio responsibilities. Federal leadership on this is critical to sustaining the preservation and protection of our ancient cultural heritage. That is why there must be minimum standards in federal legislation for states and territories to live up to. Those minimum standards will be rigorously adopted in our future standalone Commonwealth cultural heritage legislation. That is because there has to be a floor—not only aspiration—if we're to protect culture.</para>
<para>Many of the cultural heritage protections are currently to the detriment of the free, prior and informed consent of First Nations peoples. Clauses that enable such disregard to exist, such as section 18 in the Western Australian heritage act, should be rooted out and replaced with positive provisions. The operations of our future legislation should not be constructed with commercial obligations which force First Nations peoples to negotiate under duress. We found there were clauses in these negotiations that, basically, amounted to putting people's right to express their concerns at risk. We need to ensure that negotiations between First Nations people and resource development companies are not conducted so that compensation is simply to offset the cost of operations. The new regime needs to set the expectations for resource developers to be that they need to win the social licence from traditional owners and the public, not find ways to work around the statutory requirements. First Nations cultural heritage is precious. It is interconnected to who we are as a community. It is the flipside of the commercial bottom line.</para>
<para>I am proud that this government will address the long overdue reform. The PKKP's strength throughout the inquiry will lead to greater protections for all First Nations cultural heritage across these lands. My hope is that we do justice to the PKKP's resilience with real reform to ensure the destruction we saw at Juukan Gorge is never allowed to happen again. If we continue to allow it to happen, it will be the way to incrementally devalue, destroy and eradicate the presence of the Aboriginal peoples of these lands.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We welcome the government's response to the recommendations made in <inline font-style="italic">A way forward</inline><inline font-style="italic">,</inline> the final report of the Juukan inquiry, which accepts seven out of eight of the recommendations and commits to working in real partnership with First Nations people—eye to eye and with free, prior and informed consent—in implementing these recommendations.</para>
<para>These reforms would see the introduction of national standalone cultural heritage legislation that is developed with First Nations people and acts as a minimum standard for state and heritage protections. As we know, these are highly inconsistent and are often ineffective or even skewed against protecting our heritage. The government's commitment to free, prior and informed consent is great, but we need to see how this will actually play out in reality. Unfortunately, government doesn't have a history of following the principle of free, prior and informed consent, although it often pretends that it does. We hope that this process can be one of setting an example of how FPIC can be pursued through government. FPIC is a key principle of the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and means that First Nations people receive all relevant information to make a decision well beforehand, have the means to consider it properly and can make a self-determined decision, a decision that is not predetermined by government or anyone else and can be made without being pressured one way or another.</para>
<para>The government also commits to reforming native title to address inequalities in negotiating positions that traditional owners face. This is a long overdue reform. Traditional owners need to have the final say on proposals affecting their cultural heritage. That is the essence of free, prior and informed consent, and it includes the right to veto—to say no. Put forward in recommendation 7 of the Juukan inquiry report, these reforms also need to address the role of prescribed body corporates and native title representative bodies. All too often these representative bodies do not represent the views of traditional owners, whose interest they should work in, and make agreements with mining proponents on their land. Going through representative bodies alone is not free, prior and informed consent. These bodies themselves need to comply with the principles of FPIC, and their accountability, governance and transparency mechanisms need to be strengthened.</para>
<para>Besides committing to seven of the eight recommendations, it is disappointing to see that the government has not—at least not yet—accepted the first recommendation of the Juukan inquiry, which is that responsibility for First Nations cultural heritage matters should sit with the minister for Indigenous Australians, instead of the minister for the environment, and the relevant shift of responsible portfolio agencies.</para>
<para>I was on the joint standing committee for the Juukan inquiry, and there is a reason for this recommendation to be the first recommendation of the final report. The government always talks about First Nations justice, while at the heart of First Nations justice lies self-determination. We are talking about the heritage of First Nations people, of the oldest cultures in the world. Country and culture are the essence of who we are, and yet, here, the government does not commit to transfer responsibility for our own cultural heritage to the Minister for Indigenous Australians. It is time for government at all levels to stop clinging onto the old colonial days, to stop making decisions for us, to stop controlling us. The government is talking about a voice to parliament, yet failing to take an overdue and necessary step to move responsibility for First Nations heritage to the Minister for Indigenous Australians, whose portfolio agencies are much better set up to engage with First Nations communities across the country. I hope that eventually your talks with First Nations cultural heritage alliance will conclude in also accepting this recommendation.</para>
<para>I also want to urge you to pursue the reforms you have committed to with urgency. We have no time to waste. Every year, month, week and day we are delaying action risks further cultural heritage being destroyed and part of our culture and our stories being lost. Traditional owners across the country are fighting every day to protect their sacred sites. Every day my office gets calls for assistance. The numbers of applications being sought under section 9 and 10 of the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act are just giving a small insight into how many challenges traditional owners face to protect country and culture everywhere.</para>
<para>The government has given no indication on when these reforms will take place, and this clearly raises concerns that it might not be a priority for the government. We waited over a whole year since these recommendations were handed down before we even got a response, despite Labor being involved in developing these recommendations and endorsing them. How long is it going to take to finally see our heritage being protected?</para>
<para>In the Greens' additional comments to the Juukan report, along with a range of further recommendations based on the evidence of the Juukan inquiry which would further strengthen First Nations cultural heritage outcomes, we ask the government to pursue a treaty or treaties with this country's First Nations peoples. While it is incredibly important that we fix the cultural heritage protection framework in this country, we also need to address the underlying factors which have led to the destruction of so much of our heritage and culture and continue to do so every day. We can only do that through treaty. Treaty is the end to the war and leads the pathway to a better future. Treaty acknowledges First Nations sovereignty, protects First Nations rights and sets out the underlying terms for First Nations people to negotiate with the government moving forward. We need to protect First Nations heritage now, we need to follow self-determination now, and we need a treaty now.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>80</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
          <page.no>80</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>80</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Foreign Interference through Social Media Select Committee</title>
          <page.no>80</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>80</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received a letter from the Leader of the Government in the Senate and the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate nominating senators to be members of the Select Committee on Foreign Interference through Social Media.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>By leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be appointed to the Select Committee on Foreign Interference through Social Media as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senators Chandler and Paterson</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating members: Senators Antic, Askew, Birmingham, Bragg, Brockman, Cadell, Canavan, Cash, Colbeck, Davey, Duniam, Fawcett, Henderson, Hughes, Hume, Liddle, McDonald, McGrath, McKenzie, McLachlan, Molan, Nampijinpa Price, O'Sullivan, Payne, Rennick, Reynolds, Ruston, Scarr, Dean Smith and Van.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>80</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Anti-Discrimination and Human Rights Legislation Amendment (Respect at Work) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>80</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6916" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Anti-Discrimination and Human Rights Legislation Amendment (Respect at Work) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>80</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (Workforce Incentive) Bill 2022, Customs Tariff Amendment (India-Australia Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022, Customs Amendment (India-Australia Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022, Customs Tariff Amendment (Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022, Customs Amendment (Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022, Treasury Laws Amendment (Australia-India Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>81</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6924" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Social Services and Other Legislation Amendment (Workforce Incentive) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6925" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Customs Tariff Amendment (India-Australia Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6926" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Customs Amendment (India-Australia Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6927" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Customs Tariff Amendment (Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6928" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Customs Amendment (Australia-United Kingdom Free Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6915" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (Australia-India Economic Cooperation and Trade Agreement Implementation) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Assent</title>
            <page.no>81</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Information Disclosure, National Interest and Other Measures) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>81</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6943" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Information Disclosure, National Interest and Other Measures) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>81</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>81</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL BROWN</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">From the computers we work on to the phones in our pockets, telecommunications power some of the most important aspects of life in Australia. As a result, law enforcement and a range of other functions that go towards securing the national interest rely on the cooperation of telecommunications companies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The <inline font-style="italic">Telecommuni</inline><inline font-style="italic">cations Legislation Amendment (Information Disclosure, National Interest and Other Measures) Bill 2022 </inline>is targeted to not only improve the operation and transparency of the relationship between law enforcement and telcos but, crucially, to save lives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A New South Wales Deputy State Coroner recently completed a coronial inquest into the sad disappearance of a New South Wales resident. Upon completion of the inquest, I received correspondence on behalf of the Coroner recommending urgent reform to section 287 of the <inline font-style="italic">Telecommunications Act 1997</inline> (the Act)<inline font-style="italic">.</inline> Three weeks after that correspondence, I am bringing legislation to the Parliament to address this issue raised by her Honour.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I regret to advise the Parliament that this is not the first time that this issue has been raised. In 2020, in an inquest into the death of a New South Wales resident, her Honour Teresa O'Sullivan had first raised that disclosure of telecommunications data to save missing people had an unrealistic bar.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill first and foremost responds directly to these recommendations to better protect the safety and wellbeing of Australians in danger.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Second, the Bill increases accountability and transparency through enhanced record-keeping requirements for disclosures.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Bill implements minor technical improvements to support the function of the Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repealing 'imminent'</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, law enforcement is unduly obstructed in locating missing persons because telecommunications companies can only help triangulate the location of a person, if a threat to a person's life or health is "serious and imminent". The Bill removes the requirement that the threat be imminent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In both the recent inquest into the disappearance of the New South Wales resident I referred to earlier, and the 2020 <inline font-style="italic">Inquest into the death of Thomas Hunt</inline>, law enforcement could justify a clear, serious risk to a person's life. Yet, the inability of law enforcement, with the information available, to characterise the threat as imminent in those matters contributed to two lives being lost. Both inquests, as well as a report from the Australian Law Reform Commission, stress the urgent repeal of the 'imminent' qualifier.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">IPND Disclosures</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the same vein of public safety, the Bill enhances emergency disclosures from the Integrated Public Number Database (known as the IPND)— a database of all Australian phone numbers and associated names and addresses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, if the number calling Triple Zero is unlisted, the IPND manager is prohibited from disclosing the associated names and addresses to emergency call persons even when that information is necessary to provide someone with life-saving emergency services. Given that 95 per cent of the 72 million active numbers in Australia are unlisted with all mobile numbers unlisted by default, the IPND manager is obstructed from helping the vast majority of Australians.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill amends the Act so that the IPND manager can disclose information about a subscriber to the Triple Zero emergency call person in connection with a call to Triple Zero. This will facilitate an emergency response, assisting our emergency services to do what they need to, to save lives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Responding to natural disasters</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are long standing provisions in the Act that allow telecommunications providers to give help to law enforcement and national security agencies, in response to requests for reasonable and necessary assistance. In doing so, providers are entitled to compensation on a 'no-profit, no loss' basis, and are not liable for damages in relation to an act done or omitted in good faith in compliance with a request. As part of the <inline font-style="italic">National Emergency Declaration Act 2020</inline>, these provisions were broadened to allow telecommunications companies to provide reasonable and necessary assistance to emergency service organisations. However, that Act unintentionally did not include protections for telecommunications companies acting in good faith from liability for damages. This Bill corrects that error.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Record Keeping Requirements</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Following recommendations from the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner and the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, the Bill improves the record-keeping requirements on the telecommunications industry to include more details about the authorisation of disclosures under the Act. Better record-keeping enhances accountability and transparency of the handling of personal data.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Industry consultation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Major telecommunications providers and the Communications Alliance have been consulted on the Bill with amendments made in response to their requests. There was some concern that time would be needed to implement IT changes for the enhanced disclosure record keeping—consequently this part of the Bill has a 6-month delayed commencement. Additionally, industry was concerned about who would be best placed to decide whether a threat to health or safety was 'serious'. Consequently, the Explanatory Memorandum makes very clear that telecommunications companies would be relying on the representations of law enforcement agencies and emergency service organisations when making this judgement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Conclusion</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These proposed amendments minimise regulatory impact and provide benefit to industry, law enforcement agencies, and emergency service organisations. More importantly, I believe the proposed amendments will contribute to saving lives.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRE</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In accordance with standing order 115(3), further consideration of this bill is now adjourned to 1 March 2023.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>82</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r6942" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>82</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator C</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>AROL BROWN (—) (): I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>82</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAROL</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>BROWN (—) (): I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">The Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022 will increase the value of the Commonwealth penalty unit from $222 to $275, with effect from 1 January 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalty units determine the maximum fines which can be imposed for offences in Commonwealth legislation and territory ordinances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This amendment will ensure courts can continue to punish breaches of Commonwealth law with financial penalties that reflect the seriousness of the offending or infringing conduct, and act as a meaningful deterrent to future offending.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed increase is part of an ongoing process of reviewing the value of the Commonwealth penalty unit over time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will only apply to a person who has breached a relevant Commonwealth law or territory ordinance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It does not alter the obligation on a sentencing judge to impose the most appropriate fine or financial penalty in an individual matter, having regard to all relevant circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This measure is estimated to result in increased revenue to the Commonwealth of $31.6 million over the next four years, which will support the government's budget repair efforts.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022. The purpose of this bill is to increase the Commonwealth penalty unit amount from $222 to $275. Penalty units are used to describe the amount payable for monetary penalties imposed for criminal offences in Commonwealth legislation and territory ordinances. Commonwealth penalties are generally expressed in terms of penalty units rather than specific values to assist with the adjustment of penalties across Commonwealth legislation. This legislation will adjust the penalty unit to reflect community expectations and continue to remain effective in deterring unlawful behaviour.</para>
<para>When the penalty unit was introduced in 1992, the value was set at $100. The value has adjusted four times since it was introduced. It was increased to $110 in 1997, to $170 in 2012, to $180 in 2015 and then to $210 in 2017. In 2015 the former coalition government amended the Crimes Act to introduce an indexation mechanism to automatically increase the value of the penalty unit every three years in line with CPI. An indexation occurred on 1 July 2020 where the penalty unit was increased to $222, where it currently remains today. What the bill before the Senate will do is ensure the three-yearly indexation cycle continues from 1 July 2023.</para>
<para>The coalition will always support laws that will deter crime and will protect the lives of Australians from the threat of criminals. In the 2022-23 March budget, the coalition government announced an investment of $170.4 million in the AFP and the Australian Border Force capabilities to harden Australia's border against transnational, serious and organised crime, including: the establishment of dedicated AFP strike teams to target the importation and manufacture of illicit drugs, firearms and money laundering; boosting the AFP's specialist capabilities to keep pace with the growing threat of outlaw motorcycle gangs, organised crime cartels and other crime groups; and strengthening investment in AFP's Criminal Assets Confiscation Taskforce to further disrupt the criminal business and remove the profit out of crime. Ensuring our community and borders were protected was always a priority for the former coalition government, and that's why the AFP's funding increased to a record $1.7 billion. In government, the coalition provided our law enforcement intelligence and border agencies the powers and resources they needed to take the profit out of crime and harden Australia's supply chain against criminals.</para>
<para>From the latest analysis by the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, transnational serious and organised crime costs the Australian economy up to $60.1 billion per year. This is unacceptable. This has a devastating impact for families and communities, causing lost income, health and social impacts and the erosion of public trust in our government, business and public institutions.</para>
<para>The AFP led operation IRONSIDE publicly exposed the insidious and pervasive impact that transnational serious and organised crime has on the safety and security of Australia. Whilst Operation IRONSIDE was a success, there is more work to do. This bill continues on that work and that is why these changes are necessary. On that note, I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022 will increase the value of the Commonwealth penalty unit from $222 to $275, and that will take effect from 1 January next year. This is the way in which fines are meant to keep pace with inflation, without having to amend each and every bill.</para>
<para>We do not oppose the bill, but we would like to take this opportunity to talk about the urgent need to make the fine system and the way in which penalty units are applied far fairer. Fines are the most common summary penalty, but it's clear that fines don't have an equal impact as a punishment or deterrent and it depends on who is receiving them. For a person on jobseeker payments a single penalty unit imposed at $222, or now $275, is crippling, but the billionaires and multimillionaires in this country wouldn't even notice it.</para>
<para>Fines need to be in proportion to income to really be fair. A $275 fine means nothing to a banker or a property developer, but to a student, a person on the NDIS, a renter, someone on jobseeker that $275 means skipping meals. It means unpaid rent for the week. It means missing a wisdom tooth removal that you have already been waiting six months to afford. An action punishable by a fine too often just means it's legal for rich people. Fine enforcement, as it currently occurs, produces deeply unfair and often escalating hardships for vulnerable people who, not being able to pay a fine, may then go on to lose their driver's licence. Then they may be caught driving without a licence, lose their job and find themselves dragged into the criminal justice system.</para>
<para>We commend the work by the Law and Justice Foundation to the Senate. I want to give a particular call out to the work of Professor Julia Quilter and those others in that team who have worked on this important issue. An income based model is already in place in other jurisdictions, including Finland, where the method for calculating fines is based on the amount of spending money a person has for one day and then it's divided in half. It is based on their income.</para>
<para>I pushed the need for this in New South Wales and, thankfully, we managed to secure changes that ensured people on government benefits can receive a 50 per cent lesser fine than the fines issued to others. That's fair because it has a far bigger impact even at that lesser amount. We were told, however, that income based fines were impossible to do at a state level, because the states didn't have access to the taxation data necessary to determine income based fines. Well, that's clearly not an issue at the federal level. We call on the federal government to take steps to address the clear unfairness of fixed-level fines regardless of income. The law needs to be just and treat people equally. Equal treatment doesn't mean the same treatment. That's the fundamental flaw in how the Commonwealth uses fines and it's the flaw that this bill fails to fix.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank my colleagues for their contributions on the Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2022. This bill will increase the value of penalty units to ensure that financial penalties for Commonwealth offences reflect community expectations and continue to remain effective in deterring unlawful behaviour. This bill amends section 4AA of the Crimes Act, which prescribes the value of monetary penalties across Commonwealth legislation and territory ordinances. The bill will increase the value of penalty units from $222 to $275, with effect from 1 January 2023. It will also update the indexation year to 2023 to ensure that the three-year indexation cycle continues unaffected from 1 July 2023. I thank people for their contributions.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>84</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As no amendments to the bill have been circulated, I shall call the minister to move the third reading unless any senator requires that the bill be considered in Committee of the Whole.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>84</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>84</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>By leave—I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I shall move a motion relating to the hours of meeting and routineofbusiness forthisweek.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>84</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>84</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>GALLAGHER (—) (): by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The hours of meeting on Monday, 28 November 2022 be from 10 am till adjournment, and the routine of business from 8 pm be government business only for the consideration of the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022 (second reading speeches only).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Senate adjourn without debate after the second reading debate has concluded on the bills listed in paragraph (1), or on the motion of a minister, whichever is earlier.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) In accordance with standing order 57(3), divisions may not take place after 6.30 pm.</para></quote>
<para>This has been designed to facilitate the contributions on the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022. Some senators will not be required to be here, although they should see their whips about whether or not they are allowed to leave. I thank the opposition, the Greens and the crossbench for their support in facilitating that debate tonight.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>85</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022, National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022</title>
          <page.no>85</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r6917" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6920" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>85</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a contribution to the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and a related bill. The coalition supports the National Anti-Corruption Commission. Let me be clear: corruption is wrong. It is corrosive of public trust. It undermines the very public confidence on which all of our institutions depend. The public should know that those who break the law should face the consequences, and the standards in public office should be high.</para>
<para>The passage of bills to establish this commission will mean that every jurisdiction in Australia will have an anticorruption commission. In participating in this debate, the coalition has sought to draw on the over 30 years of Australian experience of corruption commissions to make sure that this commission is effective and has appropriate safeguards built in. Anticorruption commissions have extraordinary powers to deal with corruption, a civil wrong—more powers than the police have in investigating crimes of murder or terrorism. Let me reiterate: the coalition supports the National Anti-Corruption Commission. The government has the balance right on several matters, but there is further work to do. The government has adopted the bipartisan recommendations of the joint select committee, but some additional measures are required. The coalition intends to bring forward amendments to deal with these measures. Our amendments are designed to implement safeguards to ensure that this very important bill gets the balance right.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission has a very broad scope. It applies to parliamentarians and their staff and to every Canberra public servant. What many perhaps do not know is that it also applies to our Defence Force, the Australian Federal Police, our diplomats and embassies around the world, and every cook, cleaner, gardener, Comcar driver, and contractor or subcontractor that the Commonwealth engages with. It applies to almost every person exercising power under a law of the Commonwealth: pharmacists, NDIS workers, aged-care workers and Indigenous rangers. In fact, it is estimated that probably around one million Australians are brought within reach of this commission.</para>
<para>We will be moving amendments to ensure that adequate safeguards are in place to enhance the way the commission operates and to ensure that the rights of individuals are protected. This commission will have extraordinary powers, and with extraordinary powers should come greater accountability. While it's important that serious corruption be identified and dealt with, a terrorism suspect prosecuted in a criminal court has more rights than a person brought before this commission. The words of the South Australian Bar Association are particularly worth noting:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Corruption is wrong, but in our zeal to see corrupt public officials dealt with appropriately, we must not discard the protections of the rights and liberties that are central to our legal system.</para></quote>
<para>I want to turn to the issue of public versus private hearings which has consumed so much of the debate in relation to the commission. The default of private hearings is one important aspect of ensuring that the commission's focus is where it ought to be. A balance has been struck with section 73(2), which allows for a hearing to be held in public if exceptional circumstances justify holding the hearing or part of the hearing in public and it is in the public interest to do so. This balances the important investigative power of the commission whilst also protecting the rights of individuals and ensuring that any future prosecutions that may follow from an investigation are not unduly prejudiced. As the Queensland Law Society has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In our view, in order to preserve prosecutions, in order to maintain that prosecutorial authority with those bodies, as opposed to investigative bodies, and not unfairly damage reputations of people coming before the NACC, it's imperative that the default position be that private hearings are held, and obviously with the test of exceptional circumstances being employed.</para></quote>
<para>We would like to see that test further strengthened. While the legislation presently lists a number of factors in section 73(3) that 'in deciding whether to hold a hearing or part of a hearing in public the Commissioner may have regard to', the word 'may' is insufficient. We believe that the commissioner should be required to have regard to those factors, which include the extent of corruption, the benefits of exposing corrupt conduct to the public and also, importantly, any unfair prejudice to a person's reputation, privacy, safety or wellbeing that would be likely to be caused if the hearing or part of the hearing were to be held in public. The need for section 73(3) to be strengthened in this way was endorsed by various submissions to the joint committee, including by the Australian Human Rights Commission.</para>
<para>Let me now turn to the definition of 'corruption'. We will move amendments to section 8(1)(a) to remove the vague and superfluous phrase 'or that could adversely affect', consistent with the Law Council's submission that such a phrase is unnecessary, given that conspiracy is included in section 8(10). The phrase 'or that could adversely affect' introduces uncertainty to the definition of 'corrupt conduct'.</para>
<para>We're also concerned that section 9(1)(c) defines a corruption issue not just as something that someone has done or is doing but also as something that a person will engage in in the future. This would see the commission investigate possible future conduct that has not actually been carried out. This provision should be removed. A person cannot be investigated and punished for actions they have not taken. We'll also move amendments to delete section 9(1)(c). Again, this view is consistent with the views of the Queensland Law Society and the Law Council.</para>
<para>Another issue in the public debate about the powers of the commission has been whether it should be retrospectively able to investigate conduct. The basic principle is that people should be able to know what the law is before they act so they can comply with it. Section 8(4) gives the legislation completely unbounded retrospective reach. We believe that an additional public interest test is needed if the commission decides to investigate conduct that occurred before the commencement of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. The Law Council suggested including an additional threshold that will allow the National Anti-Corruption Commission to conduct investigations into past conduct only where there is an identifiable public interest in doing so. This would bring the National Anti-Corruption Commission into line with similar provisions under the Victorian IBAC act.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister has said that this legislation is not designed to duplicate existing processes but instead is intended to fill gaps. Under section 45 the commission has the power to reinvestigate matters that have previously been investigated by another integrity agency. Section 45(3) lists the matters the commissioner may have regard to when deciding to commence an investigation into a matter previously investigated by a Commonwealth integrity agency. As with the decision to have public hearings, we believe that in exercising this power the commissioner and a deputy commissioner should be required to jointly sign off on decisions to reinvestigate matters that have already been considered by another integrity body.</para>
<para>I now turn to the application of the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act to this bill. The bill has limited the application of the ADJR act to a small number of matters. We believe that judicial review under the ADJR act should be available to all decisions under this bill, and we will move amendments to this effect. This is consistent, again, with the recommendations made by the Law Council. We believe that judicial review under the ADJR act, as I said, should be available to all decisions under this bill. The application of a gag order for people under investigation by the commission can present a real threat to a person's mental health. Not being able to talk to a mental health professional or to a family member can mean that, at a very stressful time, the usual supports that a person may rely on are not available. As the Australian Psychological Society told the committee:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Individuals involved in corruption commission inquiries are likely to be appearing in a professional capacity … For many people, their professional persona is core to their self-identity and any damage or threat to it is therefore amplified.</para></quote>
<para>Gag orders therefore need to be balanced to ensure that people can access appropriate support.</para>
<para>I now come to the important issue of privileges. Rule of law principles exist for an important reason. They ensure that robust systems of justice are balanced with concern for individual rights. The bill abrogates a number of privileges that would exist in a criminal process, like the privilege against self-incrimination and legal professional privilege. Because the rights of a person under investigation are waived, it is very important that material elicited by the corruption commission, in a scenario under which a person doesn't have the right they would usually have in a criminal process, must then not be used either directly or derivatively in a criminal process.</para>
<para>A body with the extraordinary powers of this commission must itself be held to account. At present, the inspector's powers are insufficient. As the bill stands, the inspector is due to be the national anticorruption commission of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. We believe the inspector's role should be broader, and we will move amendments to strengthen the role of the inspector.</para>
<para>We also believe there should be time limits on investigations so that the commission is required to conclude investigations within a definite period. I note one of the foremost advocates for the National Anti-Corruption Commission, Geoffrey Watson SC, has argued for time limits on investigations. Time limits could be extended by application to a court, but we need to see investigations not remain open indefinitely. Our amendments seek to do this.</para>
<para>Finally, in relation to amendments, we believe the appointments of the commissioner and inspector must be completely above politics. To that end, the appointment of these roles should be subject to a supermajority of nine of the 12 members of the joint standing committee. It must be above politics. This ensures that those who fulfil these significant roles have bipartisan support. We will move amendments to this effect.</para>
<para>In conclusion, whilst we believe there are numerous measures that would strengthen this body and provide safeguards for individuals, I want to reiterate the coalition's support for the National Anti-Corruption Commission. The support for this body across the parliament is clear. It is a clear message to the Australian people that corruption is wrong and that the parliament is dealing with corruption seriously.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022. Finally, finally, we are going to get a national anticorruption commission. After years of delay and broken promises in parliament after parliament, we are now going to get, in just a matter of a few days, a national anticorruption commission to fill the gap in oversighting corruption that's been there staring everybody in the face at the federal level. The Northern Territory's got one. Victoria's got one. New South Wales has had one for decades—and haven't they needed it! Finally, we're going to have that torch of anticorruption, that powerful independent NACC, focusing on the workings of this place, the workings of the federal government and all those corporates and others who seek to corrupt this institution and federal politics.</para>
<para>The Greens made an election commitment to the people of Australia and those millions of people who voted for the Greens that we would do everything in our power to pass a national anticorruption commission bill and to make it the most powerful and independent version we could. We have been delivering on that. I'm proud to be part of a record 12 Greens senators in this place who have given the support necessary to deliver a powerful national anticorruption commission. If it was left just to the major parties to bounce between themselves and cut deals, there is no way we would be getting the Anti-Corruption Commission we've got now. I want to pay tribute to my colleague Senator Waters for having done so much heavy lifting in this space and for having passed, I would say, a stronger anticorruption commission bill in a previous parliament and having navigated that through the Senate, only for it to run aground on the rocky shores of a Morrison-Dutton coalition-dominated chamber downstairs. Thank goodness we got rid of those rocky shoals with the last election.</para>
<para>I want to pay tribute as well to the member for Indi, Dr Helen Haines, and the work she has done. And to the civil society groups as well, who have for years been working with politicians—Greens and others—to try to get this parliament to pass not just any anticorruption bill but the best possible one. There are too many to mention, but I note particularly the Centre for Public Integrity, the Human Rights Law Centre, Transparency International and so many others.</para>
<para>While we are getting a powerful bill, there is a glaring gap in it. That glaring gap is about public hearings. The now Labor government went to the election with a promise on that. They had the seven elements and they had shiny brochures. They handed them out and they said, 'If you vote for us, this is the kind of NACC you'll get.' Tragically, they have betrayed one of those key elements with this bill. They said in black and white that they supported a national anticorruption commission where the test for having a public hearing would be what's in the public interest. There it is, laid out in their brochures in black and white: that's what the test would be. And yet what do we see with this bill? We see a test negotiated with we don't know who that puts in place the need for the commission to find 'exceptional' circumstances before a public hearing can be held.</para>
<para>Public hearings bring other witnesses out. They hold anticorruption commissions to account and they provide a necessary cautionary example to other politicians, bureaucrats or entities which are trying to corrupt the Commonwealth government. We know that they have worked extremely well at a state level and we know, from the evidence we got at the inquiry, that those state based anticorruption commissions that have a test for public hearings based solely on public interest, and which don't have exceptional circumstances, think that's extremely valuable. We also know that those anticorruption commissions that have an exceptional circumstances test want to get rid of it as quickly as they can.</para>
<para>At the inquiry we heard, for example, from the current New South Wales ICAC commissioner. What did he say? He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The other issue that has been raised is public hearings versus private hearings. I'm a strong supporter of public hearings. I believe that they're important because they make the organisation accountable and they provide an opportunity for other people to come forward. We've had investigations which have commenced in public, and as a result of that information other people have come forward and we've been able to go into other areas which have raised significant issues of corruption. It also, I think, ensures transparency and accountability for the agency and justifies the purpose if the case, ultimately, is made for change.</para></quote>
<para>That's three decades of experience in the New South Wales ICAC there. I can think of multiple inquiries—one, for example, into corruption in a very major council, Canterbury-Bankstown council in Sydney—where the holding of public hearings and the exposure of what some of those corrupt council officials and councillors were doing brought out additional witnesses, who saw people lying in public hearings and then came and gave their version to the ICAC. Ultimately, they were essential for changing and exposing the corruption in those councils, producing the most powerful reports and the recommendations needed to clean up corruption. It was public hearings that produced those.</para>
<para>The Victorian Independent Broad-based Anti-corruption Commission officers suffer under an act which requires them to find exceptional circumstances before they can hold a public hearing. That has already tied them up in legal challenges and it has also limited the ability of IBAC to do its job. We just had a state election in Victoria in circumstances where there have been multiple secret inquiries undertaken by IBAC involving the current government in Victoria. But most voters in Victoria don't know what the content is. They don't know what their government had been accused of and they voted without that information. Compare that to New South Wales, where the public hearings have led to a contest of ideas. People know what the former Premier and other senior members have been up to in New South Wales. In New South Wales, voters will be exercising their rights at the ballot box far more informed than voters were in Victoria. What did the Victorian IBAC say? They said this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A crucial way in which any anti-corruption agency exposes corrupt conduct is through the public examination of witnesses. Examining witnesses in public can make investigations more transparent and can increase public awareness of, and confidence in, the integrity system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The nature of serious or systemic corruption is that many people may have knowledge of isolated pieces of information that may be relevant to a particular investigation. By holding a public examination, awareness and understanding of the matter under investigation is raised and witnesses can be prompted to come forward with relevant information that they had not previously understood the potential significance of.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill currently only permits public hearings if the Commissioner is satisfied that exceptional circumstances justify the holding of the hearing in public and that it is in the public interest to do so.</para></quote>
<para>They go on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the IBAC does not consider that the existence of exceptional circumstances ought to be a decisive factor in determining whether a public hearing should proceed.</para></quote>
<para>I quoted from the current commissioner of the New South Wales Independent Commission Against Corruption, and the former commissioner, as well, gave the same evidence. The New South Wales ICAC don't have the exceptional circumstances test, and they've told everyone in this chamber, 'Don't put it in, because it will cripple the ability of the NACC to work.' On the flipside, we have the Victorian IBAC, where they do have the exceptional circumstances test and they've laboured under it for years, and they say: 'Don't repeat the Victorian mistake. Don't put in place exceptional circumstances.'</para>
<para>It seems there is a collective will amongst the major parties to have such a high threshold for public hearings that, basically, politicians will continue to be a protected class at a federal level. What's so special about federal politicians that they should be shielded from public scrutiny and from having to answer, in public, allegations of corruption? What's so special? The only thing special about the Commonwealth level is there's more money and more funds and more opportunity to corrupt. Of course it should be subject to at least the same level of scrutiny as we have in New South Wales. Sunlight is a great disinfectant, and this bill does not provide sufficient sunlight. We will be moving amendments to seek to correct that error in the committee stage.</para>
<para>Can I finish on this point. We've had multiple concerns raised in the committee hearings, and I'm sure many members have had concerns raised, about when anti-corruption commissions have gone off the rails and been unfair to witnesses and produced unfair results. Almost uniformly, those concerns have come about from private hearings—private hearings that have gone on for months or years, where witnesses have been gagged and can't speak in public, where they've been unable to tell their spouse or key people in their life what's been happening to them, because it's all been happening in secrecy. And it's in secrecy where anticorruption commissions can veer into substantial and real unfairness against witnesses, where they cannot be providing the kind of natural justice that you would expect. One of the best cures for that is to have the hearings in public, where the corruption commission needs to justify its work and needs to justify its processes to the broader public.</para>
<para>We recognise that there have been some improvements made to the bill in the other place. There have been greater protections for journalists, but there's still more to be done in that regard. We recognise also that there have been some minor improvements to other aspects of the bill. But we went backwards in one key regard in the amendments that happened downstairs. That was narrowing the definition of 'corruption' to remove a generalised jurisdiction for tracking down corruption within the NACC. We don't understand the rationale for that. We simply ask this—and we'll ask it in committee when we try and reinstate that: exactly what corruption is it that the Labor Party and the coalition don't want the NACC to look at? If there's corruption, however defined, the NACC needs to have the ability to investigate it.</para>
<para>In terms of other unfinished business, one of the aspects that we have concern about is the oversight committee. From the day this legislation was tabled, the government was on notice that a government controlled oversight committee does not have the independence required to do its job properly. The best solution to that is for the government to adopt the Greens amendment which requires a non-government chair of the committee, therefore ensuring that the government doesn't have complete control and the opposition doesn't have a veto on key questions, like the appointment of a commissioner.</para>
<para>I've got to be clear. If we don't get the numbers to support that very rational Greens amendment, which is supported by integrity experts across the country, then we're going to be looking very genuinely to any other amendment that seeks to remove complete executive control from that committee. One of those would be to have a supermajority when the committee votes to appoint commissioners in order to remove the government's complete control, because we're not just making a NACC for the current government; we're protecting it against a more noxious government in the future that may want to impose the worst of commissioners on the NACC. And, of course, it shouldn't just be at the whim of the government of the day in a committee completely controlled by the government of the day.</para>
<para>We know as well that more work needs to be done on oversight. The current inspector is basically a mini-NACC of NACC, looking for serious or systemic corruption in NACC. We hope that there will be none of that work to do or, at best, a tiny amount to do. At state and territory levels the inspectors have a far broader role, basically to be a permanent ombudsman oversighting the NACC. We will be moving amendments to implement that based largely on the excellent recommendations of Bruce McClintock SC, the current inspector of the New South Wales and Northern Territory anticorruption commissions.</para>
<para>We will also be looking to improve the protections for journalists to ensure that where warrants are being sought against journalists those warrants are contestable. We know that works in the UK, and it can work here as well.</para>
<para>Finally, as Greens, we are focused on the outcome. We want the best, the most independent and the most transparent NACC that we can achieve. We will work across this parliament to get the numbers to achieve that. I think we've got a lot of work to do in committee, but I can say this clearly: in just a few short days we will finally have a National Anti-Corruption Commission, and it's well past time.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sometimes patience pays off in politics. It's been three years since my private member's bill for a strong, independent anticorruption watchdog with the ability to hold public hearings passed this chamber. It's been 14 years since the Greens first moved for there to be a federal corruption body. So here we are—this week we will finally see the passage of legislation to set up a federal corruption watchdog and, boy, it has been a long time coming. The Commonwealth has been the only jurisdiction that has not had such a body. All of the states and territories now have their version of a corruption watchdog, and it's not like the Commonwealth has been free of corruption, so this is a very happy and long-awaited day.</para>
<para>There are few things the Australian community is more unified on than the need for a strong, independent, transparent and effective corruption watchdog. Public confidence in the integrity of Australian politicians has plummeted in recent years. It's no mystery why. Scandal after scandal, with no consequence; watching donor mates feather their nests while so many ordinary Australians struggle to make ends meet; and former government ministers almost immediately popping up to spruik mining companies or banks or gambling interests after they've left parliament.</para>
<para>When Transparency International gave Australia its lowest score ever on its Corruption Perception Index last year it was clear that lack of progress on an integrity commissioner was a key factor in that terrible ranking. At the election, people voted clearly and en masse for more transparency, for more integrity and for better representation. People want an independent and powerful watchdog that can root out corruption that runs so rife in this place and continues to undermine our democracy, and they want that work to be done with transparency and without politicisation. Australians need to have confidence that there will be consequences when corrupt conduct is identified and there won't be a protection racket for politicians.</para>
<para>As my colleague Senator Shoebridge has outlined, the Greens have been pushing to get the federal corruption watchdog for 14 years now. As I mentioned, my bill passed this chamber more than three years ago. For 10 years we were in the wilderness advocating for this idea. It was described, if my memory serves me correctly, as a niche issue by then Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. It was laughed at by both of the big parties. Then, 10 years after we first suggested it, it was first Labor that finally agreed that this was something that needed to happen, and then it took another year for the Liberal and National parties to do a 180 and say, 'Alright, we agree that we need a federal corruption watchdog.' We're happy when people get there in the end; it's just a shame it took so long.</para>
<para>However, we then saw three years of obfuscation and inaction from the then Morrison government. We saw three rounds of public consultation on a draft consultation paper that miraculously didn't change from consultation to consultation. It was the absolute definition of tokenistic consultation, because they weren't listening to what people were saying when they were consulted on the bill. That was a somewhat amusing walk through history that was desperately frustrating to all involved at the time.</para>
<para>I want to pay enormous gratitude and tribute to former Greens senators Bob Brown and Lee Rhiannon, who drove this issue before I took over the portfolio in 2015. Of course I also want to acknowledge former Independent MP Cathy McGowan, who also had an excellent draft bill, and now Helen Haines. They have collectively got us to where we are today.</para>
<para>The previous government fought tooth and nail against an effective corruption watchdog. I wonder if that's because they knew half their cabinet would have been implicated by it. I've done multiple speeches in this chamber—and I ran out of time every time—in which I would list all of the scandals, all of the integrity fracas, all of the embarrassment that so typified the previous government. It's no wonder that the government at the time deprioritised this. It was delayed, and then it was finally printed and entered into in a form that made it the clear that the government continued to not listen to the expert contributions and what anyone with an interest in this had been saying for years.</para>
<para>What those experts had been crystal clear on were the key features of a strong, independent anticorruption commission. They are: a broad definition of corrupt conduct; a broad scope that captures parliamentarians and their staff, statutory office holders and employees of government entities and contractors; strong investigative powers; the ability to act on referrals, to act on public complaints, including anonymous tipoffs, and to act on the commission's own initiative; reasonable thresholds for commencing an investigation; the power to hold public hearings; the power to make findings of fact and findings of corrupt conduct; the power to report publicly; oversight by an inspector and a cross-parliamentary committee; and retrospective application. They were the key features the experts said a corruption watchdog needed to have in order to be an effective watchdog and not one that was toothless or asleep in the kennel.</para>
<para>In opposition, the Labor government acknowledged those features, so we were hopeful when the Albanese government made integrity a key election commitment. There is no doubt that this bill is a huge leap forward, with many of those necessary features. It builds on the good work done by Greens and Independents over many years. But we remain incredulous and deeply disappointed that Labor has walked back its previous commitment to public hearings, making them the exception rather than the rule. When it comes to integrity, the experience in all other jurisdictions has been that sunlight is the best disinfectant. Public hearings build public confidence in the outcomes. They act as a clear deterrent to those who think they can get away with corrupt conduct, and they provide a forum that can tease out new angles, new witnesses and new evidence that might not come to light without public attention.</para>
<para>The vast majority of work done by integrity commissions is done in evidence gathering and analysis, and with a clear view to balancing the public interest in transparency against the risk of disclosing compromising things to do with an investigation, and balancing that risk of undue representational damage. Public hearings happen only after a significant body of work hack has been done to satisfy the commission that there is a case to answer. Commissioners are well placed to make the assessment about what is in the public interest, but the presumption should be one of transparency.</para>
<para>We'll be moving amendments, as my colleague Senator Shoebridge has mentioned, to give the government another chance to get this right and to provide for public hearings. It's the worst kept secret in this place that a deal was done with the LNP on this matter in order to secure their support for this. There's some belief that somehow this will make it a longer lasting body. How can you create this otherwise fantastic body that's got so much work to do and then nobble it from having public hearings? It's just unfathomable. I urge the government to support the amendments that we will move to ensure that public hearings can be had without a fetter on the discretion of the commissioners to make that decision.</para>
<para>We also need to make sure that the resources that the NACC needs to do its job are determined by an independent body. Leaving funding decisions to government risks the body being starved by a government who would benefit from an Anti-Corruption Commission that's totally broke and has no teeth. An Anti-Corruption Commission that cannot do its job is, in many ways, worse than none at all.</para>
<para>The cross-party committee established under this bill is welcome, but it's not sufficiently independent of the executive. It can make budget recommendations, but funding decisions ultimately rest with government. Another key feature that is missing from this bill is clear protection for whistleblowers. My bill for a national integrity commission included a dedicated whistleblower protection commissioner, recognising that those who expose corruption and maladministration can face, and often do face, considerable personal risks. The Attorney-General has committed to acting on the Moss review and strengthening the Public Interest Disclosure Act, which we welcome, but it is a missed opportunity to not establish a whistleblower commissioner as part of NACC to ensure appropriate support, advice, representation and protection for people disclosing misconduct.</para>
<para>Finally, I want to talk about cleaning up politics. Of course, we need a federal anti-corruption watchdog and we will be supporting this bill, but a federal NACC is not enough. The NACC won't stop pork-barrelling or break the stranglehold of corporate influence on politics. It won't stop the revolving door between industry and political parties. It won't be enough on its own to give the community confidence that politicians are acting in the public interest, not their own interests. We need a comprehensive plan to clean up politics from the start, not just to deter corruption at the very end. We need to get the influence of big money out of politics.</para>
<para>Last week, I reintroduced my bill to ban donations from dirty industries and to cap all other political donations to $1,000 per year. We also need to lower the donation disclosure thresholds and make donations public in real time, so people can see who is seeking to influence decisions. We also need election spending caps, so elections aren't bought by those with the deepest pockets. We desperately need to lift parliamentary standards with a strong code of conduct for all MPs and senior staff, which we're making some progress on. We need to strengthen the lobbying code. We need to publish ministers' diaries. We need to make sure that freedom of information laws actually disclose information affordably and meaningfully. We need to stop the revolving doors and the golden escalators by extending the cooling-off period for former ministers taking on cushy roles in industries they used to allegedly regulate to five years, not the unenforced 12 to 18 months that it currently is. We desperately need a more diverse parliament that represents our community. We also need to remove barriers to public servants and dual citizens running for election. We need increased public engagement in parliamentary debate. We need strong support for protest and public advocacy.</para>
<para>Everyone benefits from honesty, transparency and accountability in politics—everyone except Aussie politicians. The community deserves a genuinely representative parliament with integrity, one that acts in the public interest, not just the interests of politicians, big corporations and the super rich.</para>
<para>I welcome this bill as a huge step towards that role. I look forward to working with the government on getting the rest of the way there. Whilst I began this speech saying that patience pays off, I'm running out of patience for reform on those other elements.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a young person, I appreciate that learning about life and its challenges is tough enough, let alone having to question the integrity of the people you are supposed to trust, the people who are meant to think of the collective good and the people who create legislation that will benefit everyone in our society. When I hit the 2020 campaign trail in Western Australia, both doorknocking and phone banking, I heard from young people first-hand, from all walks of life, who were put off by politics and the voting process altogether. I heard them say things like 'government can't be trusted', 'they're all crooks', 'they're good for nothing', 'they're self-interested and corrupt', 'they don't listen' and 'they do nothing'. All they heard about on the news in the past nine years were countless numbers of rorts, cases of misconduct and corruption and a lack of transparency when the previous Prime Minister secretly appointed himself to five ministries. So you can imagine how disappointed and in despair young people felt, the same young people who will one day be the pioneers and leaders of our tomorrow, the same young people who are full of ideas that could potentially hold the key to the issues we currently face. Labor listened and committed.</para>
<para>Before the election Labor promised we would be a government that Australians could be proud of, both nationally and globally, a government committed to integrity, honesty and accountability, unlike those who came before us. Our priority since been elected has been to legislate a powerful, transparent and independent national anti-corruption commission by the end of the year. This is an essential step to fulfil our promise to the Australian people.</para>
<para>The Albanese government's National Anti-corruption Commission will be built on the following six design principles. The commission will have a broad jurisdiction to investigate serious or systemic corrupt conduct across the Commonwealth public sector by ministers, parliamentarians and their staff, statutory officeholders, employees of all government entities and government contractors. The commission will operate independent of government with discretion to commence inquiries into serious or systemic corruption on its own initiative or in response to referrals, including from whistleblowers and public oversight. The commission will be overseen by a statutory parliamentary joint committee empowered to require the commission to provide information about its work. The commission will have power to investigate allegations of serious or systemic corruption that occurred before or after its establishment. The commission will have power to hold public hearings in exceptional circumstances and where it is in the public interest to do so. The commission will be empowered to make findings of fact, including findings of corrupt conduct, and refer findings that could constitute criminal conduct to the Australian Federal Police or the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions. Finally, the commission will operate with procedural fairness, and its findings will be subject to judicial review.</para>
<para>This legislation also provides strong protections for whistleblowers and exemptions for journalists to protect the identity of their sources. This is the level of accountability the Australian people expect, what they voted for and what they deserve. For so long Australians have felt their trust in the conduct and discourse of the federal government crumble and they remain scarred, but I stand here today proud to be a Labor senator, a part of the Albanese Labor government committed to healing and restoring the public's faith in our political system.</para>
<para>I remind the Senate of the wise words of William H Hastie, which are displayed on the wall of Old Parliament House. He eloquently said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Democracy is a process, not a static condition. It is becoming, rather than being. It can be easily lost, but is never finally won.</para></quote>
<para>To uphold our duty to the true essence of democracy we first need to ensure integrity and transparency is established so that people feel confident in the legitimacy and accountability of the government and its intentions of serving the best interests of all Australians. I thank Senator Waters and all of my other colleagues here in the Senate for their advocacy and effects in striving to see the establishment of this National Anti-corruption Commission.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the opposition have always made clear, we support an anticorruption commission, consistent with our strong stand against corruption. People who break the law should face the law. It was, of course, the coalition which introduced Australia's first ICAC, in New South Wales, back in 1988.</para>
<para>While we support the establishment of a national anticorruption commission, as we've heard in this debate it is absolutely critical to get it right. The bill, after all, does confer extraordinary powers on the commission and also applies to a very broad range of Australians, not just parliamentarians and public servants here in Canberra but a wide range of people—those working for the Australian Defence Force, the Australian Federal Police and agencies such as the National Disability Insurance Agency, and aged-care workers, as well as any contractor or subcontractor, or any person exercising a power under a law of the Commonwealth. However, as we've also heard in this debate, somehow, conveniently, it doesn't apply to union officials exercising a power under a law of the Commonwealth, and I'll return to that point in a moment. With such a broad application and the commission having all the powers of a royal commission, it's critical that we get this bill right.</para>
<para>The bill isn't perfect, and I have to say there has been a lot of very good work in this parliament, addressing a range of shortfalls, including work by the Joint Select Committee on National Anti-Corruption Commission Legislation, which made six consensus recommendations. There have been many additional comments from coalition members of that committee, as well as coalition members and senators across the board, seeking to ensure that the bill gets the balance right between stamping out corruption and protecting the rights of everyday people brought before the commission.</para>
<para>Extensive recommendations from the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills highlighted concerns around a lack of a specific identification of things like definitions, and the use of coercive powers without adequate safeguards. They are all issues that have been raised through the committee process, as well as the recommendations of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, which noted concerns about the use of gag orders and the harm that those gag orders can cause, particularly to the mental health of people brought before the commission; and the broad use of contempt offences.</para>
<para>The coalition has gone about engaging with the government, with the crossbench and through the committee process in this parliament in good faith. That said, there are a number of amendments that the coalition is proposing. First, we'll introduce some amendments that would not allow union members to receive an exemption under the bill. As we've heard in this debate, disinfectant is the best form of sunlight. The government is talking a big game on integrity, but that goes out the window when unions are exempt from the operation of the commission.</para>
<para>My office is in Geelong, where the NDIA has its national headquarters. Just imagine the unfairness of and the lack of integrity in passing legislation which gives the commission the power to call before it any NDIS worker with the agency but not a union official exercising Commonwealth powers. That category of persons is let off scot-free. If it's good enough for NDIS contractors, for aged-care workers and for members of our Defence Force, it should be good enough for union officials. We just cannot have a bill pass which does a special deal for unions.</para>
<para>The coalition is proposing to introduce a number of other amendments, including amendments supported by eminent experts in this field, including the Law Council of Australia, the Queensland Council of Civil Liberties and the South Australian Bar Association. These include that the power to decide a public hearing not be vested in the commissioner alone. We think it's really important that all the appropriate safeguards are in this bill, including on this issue. It's critical that it's not just the commissioner who decides to commence a public hearing. We are concerned that that vests far too much power in one single person. This power needs to be shared between the commissioner and a deputy commissioner to, again, ensure greater integrity, transparency and proper governance.</para>
<para>We also think it should be compulsory, not optional, for the commissioner to consider factors including whether confidential information is involved, whether there would be unfair prejudice to a person's reputation or whether a person giving evidence has a particular vulnerability, such as being under direct instruction or control of another person in determining whether a public hearing should be held. This was supported by the Queensland Law Society, the Australian Human Rights Commission and the Australia Institute. Again, we want to see these changes in the bill to make sure we have every possible safeguard.</para>
<para>The commission should also be required to commence an inquiry into matters which took place prior to the establishment of the commission only if it is in the public interest for them to do so. There must be a strong public interest test when determining whether a retrospective inquiry will be held. All decisions of the commission should be subject to review under the ADJR act. Significant aspects of the bill are not subject to this review. This was a very strong recommendation made by the Law Council of Australia and one that we strongly support.</para>
<para>The commission has the power to impose non-disclosure orders or gag orders on people that prevent them from disclosing that they have appeared before the commission. This is a very contentious issue. We think it's essential that there be very limited exceptions to this in the interests of the mental health of the people who come before the commission. People should be able to make a disclosure to an immediate family member, as long as they're not also a person of interest, and to a medical professional and a mental health professional . It's critical that we do not put people in this situation where they feel they have nowhere to turn. There was a shocking case in Victoria, a friend of mine who appeared before IBAC. Tragically, she committed suicide. No findings were made against her. We don't know all the inner details of what led to her death, other than that she was absolutely traumatised by what she was going through. So, when people are put under this extreme pressure, it is absolutely critical that they have the supports they need to get through what can obviously be a very difficult and traumatic set of circumstances. From all reports, a number of people who have been before various anticorruption commissions have committed suicide as a result of the trauma and the grief of what they have confronted.</para>
<para>We're also, as an opposition, concerned about the privilege against self-incrimination and legal professional privilege. We are proposing to introduce amendments that ensure that these privileges are granted only when absolutely necessary because, again, this imposes very significant imposts on fundamental rights. This is another amendment supported by the Law Council. Geoffrey Watson SC, as we've heard in this debate, supports an amendment that investigations not go on indefinitely. Our amendment will propose a 12-month time limit on investigations. Time limits are also critical to justice. People cannot come before these anticorruption commissions and put their lives on hold indefinitely, year in, year out, without any sense of certainty as to the length of an investigation.</para>
<para>We also think it's absolutely critical that there is bipartisanship in the creation of a new body like the National Anti-Corruption Commission. That's why it's very important that there's a three-quarter majority of the parliamentary committee overseeing the commission in relation to the appointments of the commissioner and the inspector. Without the support of all sides of parliament the commission risks losing the trust of the public. We don't want to face any sort of risk that any appointment like these, as important as these appointments are, could be politicised in any way. I emphasise that this is a very strong integrity measure. This bill must stand the test of time, not just in relation to this government but to future governments. Like excluding the unions, this bill cannot be clouded by questions of integrity. That's also why this amendment must be supported.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak about the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022. This bill has been a long time coming—a very, very long time. The Greens wholeheartedly welcome the establishment of a federal anticorruption commission, something that we have been calling for, campaigning for and advocating for loudly and consistently for decades. Of course, we would prefer for it to meet fully the community expectations of having public hearings and stronger protections for journalists. I know that the Greens will move amendments to try to ensure that we do get the best possible anticorruption commission this week. Sadly, corruption has become part and parcel of Australian politics. And no wonder—Australia recorded its worst-ever score on the Corruption Perceptions Index, behind New Zealand, Singapore and Hong Kong in the Asia-Pacific.</para>
<para>One of the reasons that my husband and I left Pakistan was the political corruption that had set in over there. By the time I reached my 20s, corruption was taking hold in Pakistan. It was deep-seated and it was widespread. It became entrenched in politics, bureaucracy and institutions. I often remember my elders reminiscing about the good old days of statesmanlike politicians who dedicated their lives to the good of people and country. There was also this notion that trickled down to me that, while politics in Pakistan had become corrupt, things were very different in Western democracies. I was told that politicians there were public servants who had honesty and integrity. I had high hopes for Australian politicians and of the political system itself.</para>
<para>Soon after I joined politics in Australia, my belief in corruption-free, selfless politicians came crashing down. I've seen the worst of it in New South Wales politics. In my first year in the New South Wales parliament a staggering 10 state Liberal MPs resigned from the party or from their positions, under the shadow of corruption. I was really was shattered by these revelations, especially since I was hoping for things to be quite different in Australia. But the reality is that power corrupts, no matter where you are. That's why we need strong systems to hold power to account. New South Wales politics is notorious for its corruption scandals and dirty deals, many of which have only seen the light of day, and had perpetrators held to account, because of the existence of the strong, Independent Commission Against Corruption in New South Wales—and because of brave whistleblowers, investigators and journalists who act in the public interest. But corruption is not confined within the borders of New South Wales. The longer I spend in politics, the more I see the omnipresence of corruption. Even worse, it is often denied, covered up and defended.</para>
<para>Some of the outright corruption is of course largely legal. The very concept of political donations is about buying influence and purchasing favour. Political donations are dangerous because they distort political decision-making, favouring vested interests above good policy. This ultimately results in the abuse of power and of taxpayers' money.</para>
<para>Political donations and the wider capture of both parties by fossil fuel interests is perhaps the most egregious example in recent years. The fossil fuel industry is a substantial donor to both of the major parties through direct contributions and through industry associations. An ACF analysis of the donation receipts for 2020-2021, a non-federal election year, revealed the coalition received $1.3 million and the ALP received nearly $800,000 from fossil fuel companies, both significantly higher sums than those of the previous year. Donations from the fossil fuel lobby had the coalition so beholden to them that, embarrassingly, Australia was ranked dead last out of 193 countries for lack of action on climate change last year. While Labor is definitely better than the coalition on climate, their refusal to put an end to coal and gas—effectively a refusal to stop pouring fuel over the fire—as well as a refusal to rule out giving public money to these industries, is a pretty clear reflection that they too are in the pockets of dirty, morally bankrupt fossil fuel corporations.</para>
<para>Political donations serve to protect other industries whose social licences are under threat. Donations to the Liberals, Nationals and the Labor Party from betting companies, for instance, went some way to ensuring that the cruelty of horse racing and greyhound racing would go on unfettered. Then there's the use of public money to shore up a political party's chances of winning elections. We are all familiar with the sports rorts, the carpark rorts and the regional grants rorts. This immoral and corrupt pork-barrelling, with little recrimination from governments, has become just an accepted part of Australian politics, with some politicians excusing or even openly defending it. But we know pork-barrelling wastes taxpayers' money, undermines public trust in political leaders and institutions, and does promote a corrupt culture.</para>
<para>When ministers leave parliament, this is another way that corruption festers. When ministers leave parliament, they often swing straight into lucrative positions in companies they once regulated, or they swing right back into politics as lobbyists and are paid obscene amounts of money by corporations to influence decisions using their well-established political networks. This revolving door has become normalised across a range of industries, particularly in the fossil fuel industry and in the fields of defence and security, where former officials and public figures move seamlessly into highly paid positions without any apparent concern about conflicts of interest.</para>
<para>I must say that I remain really astounded by the depth and breadth of this corruption. It is so normalised that it goes on right under our noses. If it ever gets brought to light—there have been repercussions, resignations and even jail for some—so much of it is sanctioned by our lax laws and the well-established web of privileged connections that no-one is held accountable for much of it.</para>
<para>So it is no wonder that public trust in politics and politicians is low, and it is our job to re-establish that trust. An independent corruption watchdog at the federal level is a big step towards this, and I commend the government for acting quickly on this much-needed reform after coming into power—admittedly, after many, many years of hard campaigning by the Greens. But there is so much more to do. Let's ban dirty donations from industries like gambling, fossil fuels, alcohol and tobacco. Let's stop the revolving door between politics and industrial lobbyists. Let's end pork-barrelling. After all, a corruption watchdog is only as powerful as the rules that define corruption.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am pleased to contribute to this debate today on the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022. Author William Gaddis famously said, 'Power doesn't corrupt people, people corrupt power.' Establishing a federal corruption commission is our chance to show Australians that people who break the law must face the law. We all agree corruption is wrong and should be stamped out. Indeed, the coalition introduced Australia's first ICAC in 1988. However, we should take the time we need and the care we need to get this right because this commission, once established, will have extraordinary powers. These powers will be the same as a royal commission, which is why it's so important we get it right.</para>
<para>The proposed National Anti-Corruption Commission applies to a vast range of people within Australia, not just parliamentarians and public servants. This commission also covers our defence forces, Federal Police, NDIS and aged-care workers, and any contractor or subcontractor who exercises power under Commonwealth law. What it doesn't cover, however, is union officials who are exercising power under Commonwealth law.</para>
<para>While there is much that is good in this bill, it isn't perfect. Coalition members and senators have engaged at length with the legislation, which has helped to shape what we are debating here today, but other aspects discussed by my colleagues during the preparation and writing stage of the bill have not been included. The Parliamentary Joint Select Committee on National Anti-Corruption Commission Legislation put forward six consensus recommendations. Coalition committee members presented many additional comments to ensure this bill gets the balance right between stamping out corruption and protecting the rights of the everyday people brought before the body.</para>
<para>The Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills also suggested extensive recommendations, which highlighted members' concerns around definitions lacking specificity and how coercive powers could be used improperly and without adequate safeguards. The Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights noted its concerns about how gag orders could be used and their potential impact on the mental health of people brought before the commission, as well as the broad use of contempt offences. Additionally, the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security's inquiry into the NACC's proposed telecommunications surveillance has not yet concluded. At this point, we do not even understand all the implications that will arise from this bill.</para>
<para>As I said, the coalition has approached engaging with this bill in good faith within parliament and through the various committee processes, but we still have concerns over some of the measures contained in the bill. To this end, the coalition proposes amendments that work to balance the extraordinary powers that the NACC will have with fairness and reason.</para>
<para>We propose to close the loophole that allows the unions to be above these anticorruption measures. While the Labor government talks itself up about integrity, allowing the union bosses a free pass when it comes to corruption is, frankly, corrupt. I don't see how someone like CFMMEU Victoria secretary John Setka should have different standards to adhere to than, say, the NDIS workers who look after the needs of the constituents in my home state of Tasmania. If this legislation is good enough for our defence forces and Federal Police to be guided by, it's more than good enough for the likes of the union officials who are threatening subcontractors on building sites.</para>
<para>We want this bill to have adequate protections for all within its purview, as do experts in this field, like the Law Council of Australia, the Queensland Council for Civil Liberties, the South Australian Bar Association, the Australia Institute and the Victorian Inspectorate. These organisations support the coalition's efforts to balance the powers in this bill, such as sharing the power to commence a public hearing into a person or organisation between a commissioner and a deputy commissioner. Spreading the power between more than a single official is good governance.</para>
<para>We think it should be compulsory, not optional, for the commissioner to consider certain factors before commencing an investigation. These factors should include considering whether confidential information is involved, whether a person's reputation would be unfairly prejudiced and whether someone giving evidence is vulnerable, for example, being under direct control of another, when determining whether public hearings should be held. We already know the damage being called before a corruption commission can do to someone's reputation, whether they are guilty of corruption or not. We've seen it across the country. We can do better than this.</para>
<para>Further, and as highlighted earlier by Senator Henderson, the commission proposed in this bill has the power to impose gag orders on those appearing before the body, to stop them disclosing that they appeared. In the interest of promoting the health and wellbeing of the people who appear before the commission, particularly their mental health, there should be limited exceptions to this order. These could include the ability to disclose information to an immediate family member, as long as they are not a person of interest in a case, or a medical or mental health professional. We need to ensure that those who appear before the commission are not left without a support system and feeling they'll have nowhere to turn.</para>
<para>We also proposed a further amendment regarding the repeal of privilege against self-incrimination and legal professional privilege for those who appear. We want to ensure that this comes into effect only when absolutely necessary, because the removal of this privilege significantly impacts fundamental rights. The commission's decisions should all be reviewed under the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act. Again, this is good governance, but there are significant aspects in this bill that are not subject to review. Commission investigations cannot go on indefinitely, so we propose a 12-month time limit on investigations. The coalition also believes that the commission should commence an inquiry into matters that happened before it was established only if it is in the public interest to do so. Otherwise we're opening up the opportunity for a never-ending line of unfounded witch hunts.</para>
<para>Finally, if we're talking about integrity we must consider how important bipartisanship is when forming a new body like the proposed NACC. We suggest that a three-quarters majority of the parliamentary committee be required for all appointments of commissioner and inspector, keeping in mind that such a body must be supported by all sides of government. Without this support the public we represent will have no faith in the NACC. The proposed changes will make the NACC a fairer and more just body, which is exactly what is needed when making decisions around corruption.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a momentous moment, to have a National Anti-Corruption Commission being legislated in Australia. I'd like to thank the Attorney-General for his leadership on this, for the way he has engaged, from very early on after the election, on the principles for the NACC and, as more details have been added, his further engagement. I also want to acknowledge the Greens, who first introduced the Federal Integrity Commission Bill to the Senate in 2010. I'd like to acknowledge Senator Shoebridge and his work through the committee stages and the way he's been pushing to ensure that we get the very best possible NACC we can. I acknowledge the former and current members for Indi, Cathy McGowan and Helen Haines, and their unwavering work to represent their community and to push for more transparency, more integrity and ultimately more accountability for the people who make big decisions that affect all Australians. I'd also like to acknowledge the member for Clark, Andrew Willkie, a whistleblower himself who has lived experience of what whistleblowers face when they come forward with information that is in the public interest. He has consistently talked about the need for more accountability and transparency.</para>
<para>Clearly integrity infrastructure in Australia is far from perfect. Recent examples of questionable spending decisions that we've seen in the news and that Australians have been concerned about include the commuter car parks, sports rorts, security contractors at offshore detention centres and water purchases, to name just a few. While members of our communities across the country are struggling, we're seeing decisions on how to spend public money made without transparency or accountability. Communities across this country deserve a strong federal integrity body. They deserve a world-class and world-leading NACC. Integrity was a key issue at the election. When I was doorknocking, or meeting people across the ACT for Politics in the Park, integrity came up again and again.</para>
<para>People want to have faith in decision-makers. They want to have faith in politicians and the political processes and the Public Service that are making all these decisions that affect every part our lives. It's not just here in the ACT. Across the country Australians overwhelmingly support a strong integrity commission. Transparency International's corruption perception index shows that Australia slipped by four places, from 14th to 18th internationally, between 2020 and 2021.</para>
<para>Corruption is clearly not new, nor is the need for an integrity commission. In the face of people seeing what they perceive as a widening gulf between them and elected representatives, this is urgent. New South Wales established their ICAC in 1988 and the federal jurisdiction will be the last to establish an equivalent body in Australia. The delay we've seen has created urgency, but urgency is no excuse for getting parts of this bill wrong. As many before me have highlighted, I would like to stress the importance of having public hearings when it's in the public interest for them to take place. Public hearings are an important part of transparency and integrity. They encourage new witnesses to come forward, they offer a strong deterrent and they increase public trust; people can see that there is a process underway.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission fact sheet from Labor at the recent election sets out what the now government promised Australians before the election. There are a number of dot points, all of them powerful and good. One of them does speak about public hearings. It explains that the NACC will:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… have the power to hold public hearings where the Commission determines it is in the public interest to do so …</para></quote>
<para>An honourable senator: What did it say?</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVID POCOCK</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It said the NACC will:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… have the power to hold public hearings where the Commission determines it is in the public interest to do so …</para></quote>
<para>Exceptional circumstances are too high a threshold. To put this into context: in Victoria, where the IBAC has an exceptional circumstances clause, between 2012 and 2021 the IBAC held just five public hearings. In New South Wales, where they aren't limited by exceptional circumstances, they held 45 public hearings. If exceptional circumstances do not exist there will be no public hearing, even if it is in the public interest for there to be one.</para>
<para>I really don't understand why we are putting the private interests of politicians and officials over the public interest in transparency and accountability. We are now in a situation where Australians have voted for more transparency. The now Labor government promised a national anticorruption commission, which we are seeing, but there is the very crucial element about giving an independent commission against corruption the ability to decide for itself if it's in the public interest to have public hearings. The government is hamstringing them due to a deal with the now opposition. We have the Attorney-General, Mark Dreyfus, doing a deal with the Leader of the Opposition, Peter Dutton, to stitch this up. It provides more protections for politicians which aren't afforded to people in our community when they are found to be corrupt.</para>
<para>I understand the desire for consensus, but I really believe on this point that integrity is too important. We have to get this right. We have to ensure that an independent commission can decide for itself when it's in the public interest and not add this really high hurdle for them to get over. Many integrity experts, as we heard during the committee process, agree that exceptional circumstances should be removed. The National Integrity Committee, the Accountability Round Table, the Centre for Public Integrity, Transparency International and leading academics, like Professor Anne Twomey, have also raised concerns. She says that as 'exceptional circumstances' is a 'very high hurdle', 'it can confidently be predicted that almost all hearings will be in private'. As pointed out earlier, we even heard from the Victorian IBAC commissioner, the Hon. Robert Redlich AM:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The NACC must be permitted to hold public examinations without a requirement for exceptional circumstances, so long as there is a specific provision that the Commissioner cannot call a witness unless satisfied that there is no unreasonable damage to reputation and that there will be no damage to the witness's welfare.</para></quote>
<para>In surveying people in the ACT about the NACC and what they would like to see, I received a response from Laurie Dunn. Laurie was a public servant for more than 30 years and describes declining standards of integrity and an erosion of community trust in politicians and the political process across his 30-year career. To quote Laurie Dunn: 'A federal anticorruption commission is essential to have any hope of re-establishing trust in the federal political process. The current model proposed is acceptable, except in relations to public hearings. This should be based on a public interest test and not on an exceptions basis. Corruption thrives when no-one is looking.' I support an amendment to remove 'exceptional circumstances'.</para>
<para>I also believe that parliamentary oversight of the commission should be strengthened. I note that there are a number of amendments that speak to that. To have an independent NACC, we need an impartial parliamentary committee. As I it stands, the government chair will have the casting vote on the joint standing committee on the NACC. That means it will be less effective in ensuring that the right commissioner is appointed. It is a really important job and clearly important that the government of the day cannot just put who they want, if the rest of the parliament doesn't think that they are the best person for the job.</para>
<para>There are other concerns which I will raise in the committee stage, and I will move amendments, as Helen Haines moved in the House. The definition of 'corruption' should include pork barrelling; third parties should be able to be investigated where they act to corrupt public officials who have no knowledge of the attempt, be that through tenders or the way that they present information; and safeguards need to be in there to ensure that the NACC is adequately resourced. There needs to be real transparency around what the NACC is requesting to perform optimally and what is being given to them.</para>
<para>The Attorney-General has said that whistleblower protection will be dealt with separately, but I want to highlight just how crucial this is. Whistleblower protections are fundamental to ensuring integrity. I welcome the whistleblower reforms to be introduced at the end of this week and call on the government to act as quickly as possible to establish a whistleblower protection commissioner and provide whistleblowers with the protection they deserve. There should be really clear processes and pathways for people in public service and in the private sector to come forward with information that may well be politically inconvenient and that may be, frankly, embarrassing for Australians but is crucial if we are to continue to improve the open democracy we have and to have all the benefits of living in such a system.</para>
<para>This National Anti-Corruption Commission is a huge step in the right direction. Australians have wanted it for some time. I really welcome the introduction of this legislation. Clearly there's more work to be done. This is a start. This is ideally a safety net that doesn't get used much. There's much work to do in terms of cultural change and driving the right behaviours, and there's clearly more work to be done to restore public trust in government. We need whistleblower law reform, we need electoral law reform and we need truth in political advertising laws. I urge the government to amend the bill to strengthen this and make it a world-leading anticorruption commission and the anticorruption commission that Australians have asked for and deserve.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHITE</name>
    <name.id>IWK</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the chair of the joint select committee which considered and reported on the National Anti-Corruption Commission bills, I've undertaken close consideration of the provisions of the legislation. This work was assisted by the contributions of more than 100 organisations and individuals.</para>
<para>The committee heard a wide range of views about certain elements of the proposed national anticorruption commission, including from unions, civil society organisations, government departments and academics. What was clear through their written submissions and their testimony is that this legislation has broad-based support in the community. This support was ultimately reflected in the committee's deliberations. The final report that was tabled contained no dissent about the core aspects of the legislation and the need for a robust and transparent national anticorruption commission.</para>
<para>Transparency and accountability formed a key issue in the last election. Over the last decade, Australians' faith in parliamentarians and public officials has been repeatedly undermined by decision-making that failed to prioritise the needs of the community, a point I also made in my first speech.</para>
<para>At a time when the actions of governments are critical to navigating a difficult set of global and local challenges, it's crucial that we restore the public's trust in their elected representatives and the institutions which deliver public services. I believe that the creation of the NACC is a critical piece of the integrity framework, which this government is improving across the board. It's the most important integrity reform in decades. The Attorney-General and the government should be commended for prioritising the introduction of this legislation and subjecting it to scrutiny through the joint select committee.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission will have sweeping powers to compel individuals to attend hearings and produce documents. Legal privileges, including the privilege against self-incrimination and legal professional privilege, will not provide a basis for a person to refuse to answer the commission's questions. These measures are important in ensuring that the secrecy and evasive nature of serious and systemic corruption can be pierced.</para>
<para>Of course, not everyone who is called as a witness will be implicated in the corruption issues. As has been the experience of state and territory integrity bodies, it's often the case that a wide range of individuals may have knowledge that informs the commission's investigations. The joint select committee heard that the provisions of the NACC bills which prohibited the disclosure of information about attendance at a hearing could unduly impact persons who are called to give evidence. We therefore recommended that the legislation be amended to allow persons to disclose information about their engagement with the National Anti-Corruption Commission to a mental health professional or other medical practitioner. I am pleased that the government has proposed amendments to this effect.</para>
<para>Several of the witnesses who provided evidence to the committee considered that it was also important that exonerated persons—those investigated but ultimately found not to have engaged in serious or systemic corrupt conduct—be notified of that outcome. The committee therefore also recommended that the commissioner be required to notify such individuals where such a conclusion is reached, and the government's amendments reflect this.</para>
<para>Anyone can refer a matter to the commission, and heads of public agencies will have obligations to do so. The commissioner can also investigate matters on their own motion, a power which the committee recommended be made more explicit in the legislation and which is now enshrined in section 40(2).</para>
<para>A key feature of state and territory based integrity agencies is the existence of an inspector whose role is to oversee the corruption commission's work. Different models exist which define the scope of the inspector's role. The committee considered these examples and ultimately recommended that in addition to investigating corruption within the National Anti-Corruption Commission, and a reactive complaint review function, the inspector should also be tasked with a proactive audit function to look at the NACC's use of coercive powers. This approach is similar to that in the Victorian jurisdiction. The committee heard evidence that this oversight function ensures that the Victorian IBAC is undertaking investigations appropriately. The inspector will ultimately form one part of a broader suite of oversight bodies, including the Commonwealth Ombudsman and the parliamentary committee. The government's amendments enhance the power of the inspector regarding witness summonses and arrest warrants.</para>
<para>The committee also heard evidence from a number of media organisations, including Australia's Right to Know and the Media, Entertainment & Arts Alliance. This bill contains strong protections for journalist sources, but these organisations identify that such protection needs to extend to persons assisting a journalist in their work as a journalist, in addition to their employer. The government has amended the bill to ensure any individual who assists a journalist is covered by the protection in clause 31, including those employed by the same news organisation as the journalist.</para>
<para>The government has also taken on board the feedback that the committee received about the power to issue warrants. I welcome the amendment which requires surveillance and interception warrants to be issued by eligible judges of federal superior courts.</para>
<para>At its core, the NACC legislation strikes the right balance between giving the commission significant powers to identify and investigate corruption, while at the same time having due regard to the reputational damage that is a necessary consequence of a corruption investigation. The commission is empowered to hold public hearings, unlike in some jurisdictions—including South Australia and the Northern Territory—where hearings must be held in private. While the test for public hearings has been the subject of much debate, I consider that the exceptional circumstances threshold and the requirement that it must be in the public interest to hold a public hearing will give the commissioner the necessary discretion to undertake investigations appropriately and transparently.</para>
<para>I am confident that when the National Anti-Corruption Commission commences operations the public will see that it is an institution with serious teeth and that it has the necessary powers to ensure that serious and systemic corrupt conduct at the national level is uncovered. The existence of the National Anti-Corruption Commission is also likely for us to foster a culture of greater accountability by setting standards of behaviour through its education and preventative functions.</para>
<para>The government is restoring public confidence in the parliament and public officials through the introduction of the National Anti-Corruption Commission and a broad integrity reform program, which includes offering greater protections for whistleblowers. I commend this legislation to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BARBA</name>
    <name.id>BFQ</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>RA POCOCK () (): I rise today to speak in favour of this very important bill, the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill. During my election campaign, I spoke with thousands of South Australians across the state and two issues were most often raised: a need for urgent action on climate change and a lack of trust in politicians and political institutions. South Australians are sick of seeing politicians making decisions based on corporate or personal interests, instead of for the benefit of the people who elected them. This is undermining political integrity and causing a crisis in our democracy.</para>
<para>We need a National Anti-Corruption Commission, a strong Anti-Corruption Commission, with teeth, serious teeth, as we've just heard Senator White say. We need it to restore the health of our democracy and the future of our country. The South Australian community, and all Australians, must be able to trust our elected representatives, but they can only do this if there is a truly independent, accountable and empowered commission that can get to the bottom of integrity matters, including pork-barrelling and dodgy donations.</para>
<para>The Greens have strongly advocated for a federal corruption watchdog for over a decade. I thank my colleague Senator Larissa Waters for introducing landmark legislation to establish a national anti-corruption commission last year, which passed in the Senate but not in the House. Alongside Senator Waters, I note the important advocacy of former senators Bob Brown and Christine Milne, and my colleagues Senator David Shoebridge and Senator Sarah Hanson-Young, who have all pushed to achieve action in this space.</para>
<para>The South Australian community and I are glad to finally see a substantial move to establish and restore integrity in politics. This bill represents a first, important, good step. It creates a national commission with power to investigate and report on serious or systemic corruption in the federal public sector, including parliament and ministers. The commission will be able to refer evidence of corrupt criminal conduct for prosecution and undertake education and prevention activities.</para>
<para>The Greens welcome the establishment and powers of the commission generally, and particularly support its retrospective capacity. However, we have some concerns with the final model that my colleagues will seek to address through amendments. A key concern includes that the bar for public hearings is too high and should not be limited to extraordinary circumstances. Everyday Australians deserve transparency. There are many circumstances where public hearings are appropriate, as so many experts have pointed out. Concern about this issue is shared by many South Australians and was a recurring theme amongst stakeholders who submitted evidence to the inquiry into the bill.</para>
<para>We need to go further than this bill permits. While this bill represents a long-overdue first step, it is not a silver bullet to restoring democracy. The government must go further to rebuild South Australians' and Australians' faith in our political institutions, starting with getting corporate money out of politics. Big corporations and billionaires wield too much power over our parliaments and our politicians.</para>
<para>Take, for example, the fossil fuel industry. In recent years, fossil fuel companies have donated millions of dollars to both major parties, including $670,000 to the coalition and $470,000 to Labor in 2020-21. Meanwhile, the latest <inline font-style="italic">State of the climate</inline> report released by CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology shows Australia's climate has warmed by 1.7 degrees on average since 1910. People across Australia are already feeling the impact of this warming and the associated changing weather patterns. We've had floods, storms, bushfires and increasing heatwaves. This is threatening our farmers, our food production, the Murray-Darling Basin and our livelihoods. At the same time, the government continues to provide millions of dollars in taxpayer funded handouts to the fossil fuel industry, continues to approve new climate change accelerating gas projects, and continues to invest billions of dollars of our own money into fossil fuel companies through Australia's sovereign wealth fund, the ironically named Future Fund.</para>
<para>These are signs of a captive state. Coal and gas companies are above all motivated by profit. Time and time again we have seen them prioritise profit over the protection of First Nations cultural heritage, over the health of the environment and over the future of everyday Australians and the kids to come. Just last week my colleague in the House Mr Andrew Wilkie uncovered documents indicating that people in the coal industry had lied about the quality of Australian coal exports by using fraudulent testing. Until we ban political donations from fossil fuel companies and other big corporations, it is impossible to discount the influence they have over government decisions.</para>
<para>In sum, this bill to establish the National Anti-Corruption Commission is an important first step—one that has come about based on the relentless advocacy of many, including many Greens MPs, as well as mounting community pressure that is too big for the government to ignore. South Australians elected me with a clear mandate: they want to see politics cleaned up. We must go further to restore the community's faith in our political system. We need to ban all political donations from coal and gas companies and we need to cap other donations to $1,000 a year. We must end the revolving door between politicians and big business by stopping ministers from taking cushy industry jobs directly after leaving parliament. We need to reform political advertising laws. We need to fund the Australian National Audit Office to audit all government programs to stop the rorting of our public funds. It is essential that our elected representatives and political institutions work for the benefit of the people and not the profit of big corporations and billionaires. This bill is a first and important step along that path, and it will go a long way towards reassuring Australians about the integrity of politics. We need to start there, and we need to go further.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I support the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022. Shoddy governance is Australia's greatest problem and biggest threat. The absence of data in making policies and legislation—some parties go to great lengths to avoid data and substitute emotion. That is partly corruption, but this bill that we are discussing today goes to real corruption, illegal corruption.</para>
<para>Initially I thought parliament contained the procedures for self-accountability. After two years, I realised I was wrong. Then I started participating enthusiastically in presentations and discussions in this building and outside, around a national crime and corruption commission. I thank that many people I listened to—lawyers, judges, former judges and everyday Australians concerned about corruption. I appreciate the conversations that I had with former senator Bill Heffernan. I realised when I spoke out about the fact that we need to have a commission in place to provide oversight of four main groups: federal members of parliament, federal bureaucrats and public servants, federal judges and federal police.</para>
<para>Now I turn to the government's proposal. For too long corruption in government has been almost impossible to deal with because current protections are totally inadequate. Each state has a body to deal with corruption at the state level of government. All the state bodies, however, face jurisdictional and evidential hurdles. Whistleblower protections, particularly for private-sector whistleblowers, have failed to provide assumed protections. In recent years, many whistleblowers have had their lives and/or careers publicly and privately trashed—destroyed. Some have faced criminal charges or been destroyed financially through civil actions.</para>
<para>Integrity as an expected attribute of those in public office has been invisible and left to chance. That lack of integrity destroys the people's trust in the governance of this country. This bill, when passed with appropriate amendments, will go a long way towards setting up a workable scheme, ensuring that integrity becomes a fundamental feature of our legislative and executive arms of government.</para>
<para>To get this bill right, a number of issues need to be addressed through internal or external amendment. One thing this bill does not address is third-party corrupt conduct, where the person being dealt with is an otherwise innocent public official dragged unknowingly into a circle of corruption. This is a scenario included within the jurisdictions of most state anticorruption bodies, except those of Tasmania and Western Australia. To be comprehensive, the bill must include this scenario to ensure that corruption, even involving innocent public officers, can still be investigated for corruption.</para>
<para>It's important to understand that this bill is not designed to be purely or only punitive. It's much more than that. It's designed to get to the root cause of corrupt processes, practices and systems, to rectify, eliminate and prevent corruption and to systematically do that and systematically prevent corruption. This provision will assist in identifying relationships vulnerable to abuse and exploitation so that processes may be introduced to provide effective risk management, oversight and accountability. This will be an alternative to relying on the ability to satisfy the restrictive requirements of proving crime beyond reasonable doubt. That's highly restrictive. We need better than that. Another power that should be clarified in the bill is the commission's power to commence investigation of its own volition, without being reliant on external referrals from other agencies and individuals. This clarification would ensure that the source of complaints or information did not limit the full ambit of justification for investigations.</para>
<para>The issue of public hearings has challenged those in favour generally of establishing this commission. It has been suggested that holding public hearings may expose a person to vilification of their reputation, and potentially there may be insufficient evidence to establish an offence. People are worried that this will be used as a mechanism to turn into unjustifiable political witch-hunts, as we've seen in some of the states. This was one of my concerns, and it was the reason for my rejection of the bill in its earlier form. To address this, the bill indicates that hearings may be held in private unless the commissioner is satisfied that exceptional circumstances—exceptional circumstances, as it says in the bill—justify holding the hearing in public and it's in the public interest to do so. The phrase 'exceptional circumstances', if included in the bill, would make it virtually impossible to hold public hearings, as it would require a court to determine whether circumstances are in fact exceptional. That's a lawyer fest for sure. The removal of the requirement for exceptional circumstances is essential, and there are proposed amendments before the Senate that will fix this problem. I support these amendments. It would be appropriate that, if a public hearing were held, the commissioner or a deputy commissioner preside, because they are legally qualified to deal with the more obvious legal issues.</para>
<para>Another concern raised with me is the composition of the proposed parliamentary joint committee, where the chair is required to be a member of the government. This raises questions on the independence of the joint committee. A better solution may be that the chair should not be a member of a political party forming government or should at least be a person enjoying bipartisan support of the committee. It's important that an extensive whistleblower protection authority be established to ensure protection for genuine disclosures. The government assures me that the introduction of such an authority is imminent and an essential supportive element of this bill's operation.</para>
<para>Next, I raise what Senator Bill Heffernan has raised with me in extensive personal discussions, as well as senior judges and practitioners of the law. What's missing from this bill is the jurisdiction to overview the misconduct and actions of the judiciary. This option is desperately needed, and there is information showing that this jurisdiction has been overlooked for far too long. It needs to be included—it must be included. It would be welcome to think that our judges are all free from human weaknesses, but they're human. In practice, it's not a realistic conclusion that they are free from human weaknesses. Judges are human and susceptible to the human frailties that may lead to misconduct in their offices. We know that. The judiciary must have a mechanism that provides independent review of the conduct of its members.</para>
<para>I look forward to the development of a bill to cover judges and senior police and associated amendments to strengthen the safeguards designed to protect our society from evildoers hiding behind public office—a bill the government has flagged with us. The Australian public deserves protection and reassurance. The people deserve integrity. To be effective, government must be trusted. We do not have trust in governance at the moment, but that's what we need. We have one flag above this building, one flag for the nation. We are one community. We are one nation. And we support the integrity of our political representatives and public officers whose duty is one of service to the people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm very pleased to rise to speak in support of the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and the establishment of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. This is something the Greens have been campaigning for for a very, very long time, and we welcome the adoption of that proposal by this parliament. I want to particularly thank the tireless work of my colleague Senator Waters in campaigning for a National Anti-Corruption Commission, a watchdog with teeth. Her bill establishing a federal anticorruption body was the first one to pass one of our houses of parliament, and it sets an important precedent for the bill that is before us today. The Greens, as well as pushing for a national anticorruption body, had been pushing for greater scrutiny and accountability across the parliament on integrity, transparency and appropriate expenditure of government funds, which is why we will continue to push for political donations reform. We will continue to push for greater transparency and stronger limits on donations so that fossil fuel donations can't buy more fossil fuel subsidies and destructive industries like gambling can't buy policy outcomes that reap them profits and increase misery for so many for so long.</para>
<para>It's also why, in my role at various points as Greens spokesperson for sport and for infrastructure, I pushed for greater transparency around the community sports infrastructure program—the so-called sports rorts—and around the Urban Congestion Fund. Let me note that in talking about this tonight I'm not in any way wanting to pre-empt the important work of the NACC but simply to say that we Greens think it's important because the last parliament showed both the power of the Senate in scrutinising these programs as well as the limitations.</para>
<para>As deputy chair of the Joint Select Committee on the Administration of Sports Grants I saw firsthand the important evidence that the committee exposed. The committee found that:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Overwhelming evidence shows that Senator (Bridget) McKenzie, and her office, in consultation with the Prime Minister's office, used the program as a vehicle for gaining political advantage for coalition candidates in the 2019 federal election by favouring applicants located in marginal and 'targeted' electorates.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The evidence available to the committee indicates clearly that the Prime Minister's office, and likely the Prime Minister, were aware of the use of electorate information to identify projects in marginal and targeted electorates well before the first grant recipient was announced.</para></quote>
<para>We saw through that inquiry that, despite attempts by former prime minister Scott Morrison to place all the blame on then minister McKenzie, the reality was that his office was very aware of the decision-making process, if not deeply involved in it.</para>
<para>The committee also heard clear evidence about the impact of that decision-making process. We heard from community groups across the country who had spent hours, days and weeks preparing their applications, only to find that their intense work didn't matter as much as the postcode lottery—whether they fell in a marginal electorate. These were groups that, after the department had judged their application, were right there at the top of the list in terms of how appropriate it was that they get grant funding. They scored extremely high but missed out because of that postcode lottery favouring marginal and targeted electorates. I know from my time in local government as a councillor and mayor how heartbreaking it can be to see your community missing out on crucial infrastructure because you're a safe seat. Nobody is showing largesse and throwing dollars at you. You're a safe seat, taken for granted by one party and ignored by the other.</para>
<para>Importantly, during the sports rorts inquiry, there was information that we were not able to obtain through the Senate process because, on crucial points, conservative crossbenchers voted with the Liberal-National party government to deny access to critical information. And we are still waiting on some of that information—for the Information Commissioner to process long-overdue freedom-of-information appeals.</para>
<para>As I said, we showed the power of the Senate but also its limitations and why we need to have an anticorruption commission that won't have those limitations. The select committee noted in its final report:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The committee has faced significant obstruction in its attempts to gather evidence that would explain who was involved and responsible for grant decisions (including the extent of involvement of the Prime Minister and others), what were the reasons for decisions, and whether those decisions were made in accordance with the law.</para></quote>
<para>That was important work by that committee, but my experience and that experience really highlighted and underlined the importance of an anticorruption body and how desperately we need one. So I commend this bill and echo the support of my colleagues for this important reform. It has been a long time coming, and we are glad to see it finally being done.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a very significant development in the chamber now, reaching the conclusion of the second reading debate. I do remember the last government being dragged kicking and screaming to the conclusion that it should introduce a federal integrity commission, and I remember how long it took. It took a series of absolutely extraordinary perversions of the role of ministers and others in public office. It took the sports rorts affair, where the government used public moneys, grant moneys, in a way that was clearly and shamelessly political. It used public moneys in a way that was utterly in the partisan interest. There were other examples during the Morrison period.</para>
<para>Of course, it fit with a prime minister who centralised power in his office to the extent that he had cabinet committees of one, to ensure that information was kept secret, covered up—an extraordinary development. At no time in the history of Federation did we ever have cabinet committees that consisted of one person. We had a Prime Minister who engaged in conduct where, in order to pervert the processes of government, he had himself appointed secretly to at least five ministerial positions. So it's no wonder there is out there in the community a deep distrust of political institutions. At this period, more than in any other period in our history, we need to take steps in terms of our own conduct as parliamentarians and as public officials, and also in terms of the framework that we set out, to deliver a federal integrity commission that supports the proper administration of public affairs in this country and which assists to restore confidence by the public in the operations of this parliament and in the operations of the Commonwealth government.</para>
<para>The last government promised to deliver a commission. In fact, some of the aspects of the bill that they are currently opposing they proposed themselves the last time around. I'm sure that in the committee stage tomorrow we'll hear much more about that. What the last government patently failed to do was to actually bring legislation before the parliament. What the last government failed to do was to deliver on the commitment that they had made to the Australian people to deliver the legislation that they had made a commitment to do. It was a central issue in the last election. Whether members of the House of Representatives were returned to the parliament on the Labor side, or in some of the electorates where members returned were Independents, one of the factors that drove voters was a requirement that they knew they could have confidence that a new Albanese Labor government would deliver and would implement an integrity commission with teeth, and would implement an integrity commission that would do its job.</para>
<para>What we're seeing today is a government that has done two things. It has delivered upon the commitment that it made, but it's also a government that has resolved to work across the parliament with goodwill to try to make sure that in working across the parliament we're delivering a national anticorruption commission that is fit for purpose; has broad support; is durable and effective; and can do its job.</para>
<para>Some political commentators and some members of the public have asked questions—some of them very well motivated—about what kinds of matters the commission will investigate. What kinds of hearings will it conduct?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You've got some ideas?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course, those matters will be guided by two things, as my friend from the Greens Senator Shoebridge has indicated. He has some views. But it will be delivered by two things: one is the framework, but the second, and most important, is the independence of the commissioner himself. If you give me a moment, I will just consult with the advisers—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This has been one of the delights of my week—this opportunity to contribute, unsolicited, to this debate! I'm sure the Senate has been delighted to get the benefit of my views on this over the course of the last nine minutes. I understand that there are now other senators who may wish to contribute, and on that basis I'll happily take my seat.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister has summed up, but, with the concurrence of the Senate, I will go to Senator Lambie.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Imagine that: the speaker's list falling. It wouldn't have anything to do with those exceptional circumstances! I thought all 76 of us would be running in here, happy to speak about this, throwing out there how great it is. How disappointing! I can tell you, the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022 have been a long time coming. Thank you, Helen Haines. What a wonderful job you've done.</para>
<para>The bills are far from perfect. When Senator Tyrrell and I had a look at them, we said to each other: 'They are not perfect. They could be better.' But is there any way in the world we would vote them down? It is not a question that even needs asking. That's the thing about these bills, and it's the thing about being on the crossbench: most of the time we don't get to decide between the perfect and the imperfect. We deal in shades of grey. I can assure you that <inline font-style="italic">50 Shades of Grey</inline> is nothing compared to what dealing with shades of grey in here looks like. There's a whole lot of grey here, and this isn't everything it could be. You could say it's not everything it should be. But it's something, and that's a hell of a lot more than what we'd have if we voted this down. Governments don't like changing their own bills if they can avoid it, even if it means making them better. When you have an opposition that are shivering in their boots about what this bill would end up looking like if the crossbench had their way with it, you have the recipe for a free kick. That's what we have here.</para>
<para>The Liberals and Nationals don't want a strong National Anti-Corruption Commission, because they don't want a strong National Anti-Corruption Commission coming after them. That's what's happening here. They're so terrified that they're going to vote to defang this thing before it even gets out of the kennel. That is why they're voting with the government to make it harder for the commission to do anything. This is what the public needs to understand about this anticorruption commission. We only hear about anticorruption commissions when they're in the process of busting corrupt politicians and bureaucrats. If you're corrupt, you should be busted.</para>
<para>It's good that state anticorruption commissions are onto them, but actually the real value in these commissions isn't what they do to politicians; it's what they do to the public. You see, it's what the public thinks about politicians that matters to politicians. You can say, 'Of course it is; they're all as bad as each other,' but politicians care about what the public thinks in good times and in bad, and, believe it or not, you should care as well. Whenever there's a big problem, one that requires politicians to fix, it's hard to fix it when the public thinks politicians are all a pack of so-and-sos. If nobody trusts politicians but we're relying upon politicians to fix things, what do we do when one of them comes up with a fix? We say, 'It sounds way good to be true.' We say, 'What's in it for them?' We say, 'They can't be trusted, so we shouldn't support it.'</para>
<para>If you can't trust politicians you don't get solutions from politicians, because politicians can't do anything if you don't trust them to get the job done. There's a certain degree of trust that's required to make big reforms. You need to trust that, when things look a bit uncertain, there's a plan in place. Sometimes, reforms break things. Sometimes, you have to break a few things to get to a better place. Life was never meant to be easy. Welcome to the real world.</para>
<para>There's always that bit mid-jump when you're not rising and you're not falling; you're just hanging in mid-air, at a standstill, and it's not clear whether you're going to land it. It's right then that you need the confidence that comes from knowing that you're in good hands. Politicians rely on that trust when they want to make a big change. It's the trust that made the gun buyback possible. The GST, the NDIS, the Prices and Incomes Accord—you don't get big changes without trust that the people making those changes have your best interests at heart.</para>
<para>That's what we have lost, like a trickle out of the bottom of a leaky bucket, slow and steady. Slowly but surely, it's drained out of this place and the people who sit in it. People think we're all corrupt, by the way. They think we're all up to our necks in the gravy train, and we're just lapping up the donations and the dodgy deals. Sometimes they have a great point. But most people aren't crooks. Most people are just here to try and have an honest crack at making people's lives better. And when we lose trust in them, my word, we lose out ourselves. That's why we need anticorruption commissions—because just knowing there's a cop on the beat is supposed to make us safer, even if we never need them. And, by the way, they are a deterrent to make you think twice. Seeing them haul in a bad politician every now and then reminds us that they're out there doing their job. But the rest of the time we've got to have confidence that if there's something dodgy going on it will be sniffed out and caught and punished.</para>
<para>That's what the point of an anticorruption commission is supposed to be: not just putting bad politicians up in the docks but actually reassuring the rest of us that the ones who aren't doing anything wrong are actually doing a decent job and giving it a go. Any anticorruption commission which is focused just on catching dodgy politicians misses the point, because if all we see is a conga line of dodgy pollies getting hauled into the National Anti-Corruption Commission we don't have any confidence that politicians are in it for the right reason at all. That's what can happen as well. After a while the public loses track of which politician is corrupt and which one isn't. After a while the whole brand just goes sour, and just being in the same building tars all of us with the same brush.</para>
<para>A really important part of the Anti-Corruption Commission has to be the ability for the commission to promote trust. It has to have a role to play in putting itself out of business. We all know we need a federal ICAC, and what we want is a world where we'd never need one. It'd be a perfect world, wouldn't it? That might be hard to imagine. Even I find it difficult, believe you me. But that's the position we want to be in. We want a parliament filled with politicians who aren't afraid of an anticorruption commission because they have—would you guess it—absolutely nothing to hide.</para>
<para>I think we need to be brutally honest with ourselves that we are miles away from that when it comes to public trust. We've got a parliament where the two major parties are terrified of an anticorruption commission. They've both been effectively bullied into supporting one by the public, who are sick and tired of both of them. And now they've got the chance to actually deliver it, what do they do? A little deal behind closed doors—which is not helping with trust—to make the NACC do its business behind closed doors as well. Seriously? Not off to a good start. You know why? They're worried about their reputations, apparently, and I don't know why if they've got nothing to hide. Here's an idea. If you're worried about what sort of damage to your reputation a public hearing might do, maybe make sure you don't give the NACC a reason to pull you in front of it in the first place. There's a plan of attack. How about that?</para>
<para>So we've got the crossbench backing an integrity commission that works, and we've got the major parties voting together to prevent it. In spite of that, I'm going to vote for it, because I will take a bad NACC over what we've had in the past few years. We've had the former prime minister put his former chief of staff in charge of the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet and then ask his old chief of staff to investigate any accusations of corruption that are hanging around the necks of his ministers. I think we need a better set-up than that. We need a better anticorruption system than just having the Prime Minister's former staffer doing a little report into how everything's fine and dandy and there's nothing to see here. A flawed NACC is better than no NACC. It's the NACC that's been knackered, let's be honest, but it can be fixed. It will have to wait to be fixed, but you can build a foundation, and at least we've got that. You have to start somewhere, and I want to start here.</para>
<para>We've got two major parties with the most to fear from a NACC, who are both voting to make it a bit less frightening—to remove its fangs, as I've already said. I'm not sure it's quite the jaws that the A-G promised. I'm telling you now that that won't last. It'll get stronger—that's my prediction—and we'll get a decent NACC sooner or later, because the public do not trust you.</para>
<para>The public will demand it be strengthened. It's as simple as that. You hiding behind closed doors will not satisfy the appetite of the Australian public. It will not satisfy it at all; it won't even get to the entree! You will promise to strengthen it because you'll have no choice because you'll need their votes. This is how we work. It's going to be a very, very slow process here, but we will get there. I just know it. Cute little arguments like the one you've done on this are not helping the situation, I'll be brutally honest with you. It has not helped reinstate public trust. Throwing things behind closed doors when politicians are being corrupt will not help the situation either. As a matter of fact, in building the trust of the public—because apparently none of us have got anything to hide in here—what is the problem? Can't you defend yourselves? Seriously? It has got to this.</para>
<para>Anyway, Senator Tyrrell and I took a look at the amendments, and we'll back the ones that make sense. But I can tell you, at the end of this debate, when we're asked to vote yes or no, we'll vote yes. No matter if all the amendments get up or if none of them get up, we'll vote yes, because we are done talking about this. Seriously, at least there's a foundation there. The only thing left remaining is for you to build the house that goes on it—roof, chimney and all. Only then will public trust return to politicians. Only then will that happen. I can only hope that the NACC will use its ability, when it requires 'exceptional circumstances' for a hearing to be in public, to make everything fall under exceptional circumstances. If there is corruption here, I can assure you that the 'exceptional circumstances' clause needs to be used to let it play out in the public arena. It needs to be used as a deterrent, and people need to be held responsible for their actions. That is grassroots. That is the Australian way. That is the way things should be done. So, as much as we are grateful to get something, which is better than nothing, I can tell you now that it is a long way off from being satisfactory.</para>
<para>Once again, I very much look forward to finding out who those commissioners are. I'm hoping and putting trust in them that they know what I know—to build back public trust and the reputation of politicians. Those who deserve to be hauled out in front by the NACC deserve to be pulled in and have it played out in the public arena, because that is in the public interest. It is in the public interest to build back public trust in this country's politicians. That's where I want to see it going.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022. For too long, politicians have done dodgy things in this place and gotten away with it. Politicians have raked in money from private businesses while serving as ministers; politicians and their families have benefited from insider knowledge for their own gain; politicians have given jobs to their mates who later made decisions in their favour; politicians have pork-barrelled marginal communities for votes; and politicians have thrown whistleblowers under the bus to protect their own behinds. These things don't pass the pub test. Not only that, they could be corrupt conduct. The people who are deciding the future of this country could be engaging in conduct that benefits themselves and their mates rather than the country. That's risky business. It's not in the national interest. Of course, we have to do something to change this. Until now, we haven't held people who work in the federal public sector to account for what could be corrupt conduct. Well, time's up.</para>
<para>One of the messages that the voters of Australia sent in May was to establish a National Anti-Corruption Commission. The voters of Australia wanted their elected representatives to establish a strong and transparent integrity body. Why? Because the voters of Australia want to know when their elected representatives are doing dodgy things. They don't want their elected representatives to get away with it anymore.</para>
<para>The voters of Australia also want to know when the public servants who work for the government of the day are doing dodgy things. That's hard-earned taxpayer dollars that public officials could be misusing. Engaging in corrupt conduct doesn't cut the mustard in the voters' workplace. Why should we be any different? I'm happy this government is acting on the message the electorates have sent. I'm happy this government has moved quickly to introduce this legislation.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission the government has proposed looks pretty good, but I think it could be better. There are a few things I'd like to see changed. One of those things is the fact that hearings would be held in public only in exceptional circumstances. What does that even mean? The bill doesn't define it, and at the moment the bill says that public hearings will only be held if the commissioner thinks there are exceptional circumstances to justify it and it's in the public interest. You know what? I don't think that's good enough. What's there to hide? Like I said before, the voters of Australia want to know when their elected representatives and the public servants that carry out their work are doing dodgy things. How are they going to know this if a hearing is held in private? Don't get me wrong—I don't think all hearings should be public. Sometimes it's appropriate to have private hearings, like when a person has been charged with an offence or when a person is likely to incriminate themselves or if giving evidence in public would prejudice a fair trial or where there'd be undue damage to a person's career or reputation. That all makes sense, but the bar for public hearings that the bill sets at the moment is way too high.</para>
<para>Prof. Anne Twomey told the Joint Select Committee on National Anti-Corruption Commission Legislation that under the bill in its current form almost all hearings will be in private. I'm pretty sure that wasn't what people voted for. I reckon that's more like what the coalition promised, and I don't see them in government anymore. What the government has forgotten is that people voted for an integrity body that was open, transparent and had teeth. That's why we put forward some amendments to remove the high exceptional-circumstances bar.</para>
<para>We aren't moving our amendments because the Greens have their own which are similar, and we support them. The Greens have done a lot of work on this issue, and they've put forward some other amendments. Their amendments would make the commission stronger and more transparent. One of their amendments is to specify that the commission be independent, and that's a bit of a no-brainer. I'm happy to support amendments like this.</para>
<para>Senator Pocock has also put forward some amendments that strengthen the commission, and this is what people voted for. We support those as well.</para>
<para>Finally, I just want to say that I'm happy to be part of a parliament that is doing something about corruption in the federal public sector. I may be a new senator, but I've been around Parliament House for a while now and I've seen some questionable things that should have gone under the microscope—some things that were pretty obvious too. The establishment of an integrity body was one of my priorities going into this election, and I'm proud to be part of a parliament that's doing something about it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank all senators for their contribution to the debate on these bills. A number of senators have made the point that they are supportive of this legislation and supportive of the establishment of a national anti-corruption commission, regardless of views they may hold about particular amendments that have been foreshadowed in this debate.</para>
<para>I welcome the fact that there is such a broad level of support for a national anti-corruption commission. I don't think that there's any doubt that this is something the Australian public has been wanting to see happen for a very long time. It is unfortunate that it has taken as long as it has to see a government prepared to step up and introduce legislation into a parliament that will establish a strong national anti-corruption commission to deliver on that community expectation of the way we conduct politics. There have been too many events in recent years that have not passed the pub test as far as the community is concerned, and the fact that we haven't had a national anti-corruption commission has allowed bad behaviour, wrong behaviour and, indeed, corrupt behaviour to go on for far too long at the national level in this country. So I'm pleased to be part of a government that is finally stepping up to the plate and delivering a strong national anti-corruption commission in response to that community sentiment. As I say, the government is pleased to support the passage of the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill 2022 and the National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2022.</para>
<para>This legislation will establish a powerful, transparent and independent national anticorruption commission. These bills incorporate the design principles the government announced before the election, which were developed with some of Australia's leading integrity advocates. I pay tribute to the people who have been advocating this cause of establishing a national anticorruption commission for so long—people like Professor Anne Twomey, who recognises that, in her words, this bill:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… appears to be well-considered and applies appropriate powers and protections.</para></quote>
<para>People like the Accountability Round Table:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill creates the NACC, an important proactive reform of existing integrity mechanisms worthy of widespread support.</para></quote>
<para>Groups like Transparency International Australia, which:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… congratulates the Government on proposing a definition of corrupt conduct, to define the Commission's investigative jurisdiction, which is simpler, broader, more flexible and less technical than most previous Australian precedents.</para></quote>
<para>There are so many more that I could name who have been campaigning for the establishment of a national anticorruption commission for many years. Again, I pay tribute to their efforts.</para>
<para>The commission will operate independently of government and have broad jurisdiction to investigate serious or systemic corrupt conduct across the Commonwealth public sector. It will have the power to investigate ministers, parliamentarians and their staff, statutory officeholders, employees of all government entities and contractors. It will have discretion to commence inquiries on its own initiative or in response to referrals from anyone, including members of the public and whistleblowers. Referrals can be anonymous. It will be able to investigate both criminal and non-criminal corrupt conduct and conduct occurring before or after its establishment. It will have the power to hold public hearings. It will also have a mandate to prevent corruption and educate Australians about corruption.</para>
<para>In a number of respects, the model the government is putting forward for a national anticorruption commission goes well beyond any other proposal we have seen from a federal government in our country, having much wider power as to the range of people whose behaviour can be investigated and much wider power to initiate inquiries on its own initiative. I always thought it was farcical that the proposal we saw from the former government would only allow investigations of matters referred to a commission by the government of the day—as if any government would refer matters it didn't want investigated to an anticorruption commission! It's important, therefore, that the model we're putting forward and that this parliament will support allows the National Anti-Corruption Commission to commence inquiries on its own initiative.</para>
<para>A parliamentary joint committee will oversee the commission and will be empowered to require the commission to provide information about its performance. These bills have been further refined with the benefit of the public inquiry and the unanimous report of the Joint Select Committee on National Anti-Corruption Commission Legislation. On that note, I thank the chair, Senator Linda White; the deputy chair, the member for Indi, Dr Helen Haines; members of the committee; and all those who made submissions and gave evidence to the committee's inquiry. Not having played a role in that inquiry myself, I was really impressed that that joint select committee was able to come to unanimous recommendations, given it spanned all sides of this parliament—major parties and independents as well. For such a contentious issue that has not been acted on previously in this parliament, for that committee to come to a unanimous report was a tremendous effort. I commend the members of the committee for the work they did there. The committee has made six unanimous recommendations, which the government welcomes. We have moved amendments to implement those recommendations. The House of Representatives has passed this bill with those amendments.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission will operate independently of government and have broad jurisdiction to investigate serious or systemic corrupt conduct across the Commonwealth public sector. It will have the power, as I've said, to investigate ministers, parliamentarians and their staff, statutory officeholders, employees of all government entities and contractors.</para>
<para>As I said, it goes further than any model we have seen previously in having the discretion to commence inquiries on its own initiative or in response to referrals from anyone. It will be able to investigate both criminal and non-criminal conduct and conduct occurring before or after its establishment. This is something that has attracted some public debate, whether it is right to have a corruption commission with retrospective powers. I think it is important that a National Anti-Corruption Commission does so. Just as it's important that a National Anti-Corruption Commission has the power to commence inquiries on its own initiative, to not be constrained by the government of the day as to what it can investigate but to be truly independent of government and to have the capacity to make its own decisions about what it would investigate, it is equally important that we have a National Anti-Corruption Commission that has retrospective powers to look at things that've occurred in the past, as well as right now and in the future.</para>
<para>The whole principle of this National Anti-Corruption Commission is that it operates independently of government. It shouldn't be tied by the government of the day as to what it can and can't investigate, or who it can and can't investigate, or the time period that it can or can't investigate. The important principle that underpins this National Anti-Corruption Commission is that it will have the power to investigate serious and systemic corrupt conduct. That's the linchpin. If behaviour, in the commission's view, amounts to that then it should have the power to investigate, regardless of who it involves—provided they're, obviously, connected to the Commonwealth—regardless of when it occurred and regardless of whether people like whether it's investigating it or not. I've heard the Attorney-General, Mr Dreyfus, asked many times in the media whether the commission should investigate this or should investigate that, and he's rightly made the point that these are all matters for the independent Anti-Corruption Commission.</para>
<para>Establishing this Anti-Corruption Commission is a very important step in trying to restore public confidence in our system of government and in what happens in this building. I think we all know, and even members of the opposition will acknowledge privately, that public trust politics and public trust in the Australian government was eroded over the last few years by a series of scandals that we saw, with no public agency in existence at a federal government level with the capacity to investigate those matters. So the very worst thing that we could do, now that this parliament is finally creating a National Anti-Corruption Commission, is tie its hands as to the type of conduct which could be investigated, the people who could be investigated, or the time period that could be investigated. Leaving these things open for the commission to make its own mind up is important as a way of maintaining and rebuilding public confidence in how politics works in this country and how governments work in this country.</para>
<para>The bill will ensure appropriate oversight of the commission by a parliamentary joint committee and an inspector. The parliamentary joint committee will be empowered to require the commission to provide information about its work. The committee will also be responsible for approving the appointments of the commissioner, the deputy commissioners and the inspector. This inspector will deal with any corruption issues arising in the commission and complaints about the commission, and will review and determine the extent of compliance with the law by the commission when exercising the power to issue a summons or arrest warrant.</para>
<para>I know from the activities of state anticorruption commissions that they do have a very extensive powers, and that is only right. These are important issues that we need a strong independent commission to have the power properly investigate. But it is important that those powers themselves aren't misused by an anticorruption commission, and that's why this bill also provides for the position of an inspector who will have the ability to review the activities of the commission and ensure that it's not overstepping its boundaries.</para>
<para>The legislation ensures that there are appropriate safeguards against undue reputational damage and provides robust protection for whistleblowers, journalists and persons assisting a journalist. It is of course important that people who want to make complaints to a national anticorruption commission do have protection for doing so, but, equally, that there are safeguards against undue reputational damage when it comes to the publication of information concerning the commission's activities.</para>
<para>The government has committed substantial funding of $262 million over four years for this commission, and this funding will ensure that the commission has the staff, capabilities and capacity to perform its important functions.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill makes consequential amendments to the Commonwealth statute book to support the establishment of the commission. The consequential bill will ensure the commission has key investigative powers and has the ability to share and receive information for the purpose of carrying out its functions. The consequential bill will also repeal the Law Enforcement Integrity Commissioner Act 2006 and provide transitional arrangements for the continuation of investigations and inquiries being conducted by the Australian Commission for Law Enforcement Integrity, following the establishment of the commission.</para>
<para>Australians rightly expect honesty, accountability and integrity in government, and, sadly, those qualities have been lacking from Australian politics and the Commonwealth government for far too long. It's time that we restored honesty in politics, it's time that we restored accountability in Australian politics and it's time that we restored integrity in Australian politics, and this bill creating a national anticorruption commission will go a long way towards that.</para>
<para>The National Anti-Corruption Commission will form an essential part of Australia's broader integrity framework. We have established robust codes of conduct for ministers and ministerial staff, and we are working across the parliament to implement the <inline font-style="italic">Set the standard</inline> report from Sex Discrimination Commissioner Kate Jenkins. We are committed to enhancing transparency and integrity of political donations. The government is developing reforms to the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Rule 2014 to require agencies to take measures to prevent, detect and deal with corruption, which will complement the establishment of the commission. The Attorney-General has also announced that the government will be introducing priority reforms to the Public Interest Disclosure Act 2013 to improve whistleblower protections, with the aim of having these reforms in place when the commission commences operation.</para>
<para>With these bills to establish a powerful, transparent and independent national anticorruption commission, the government is delivering on its promise to tackle corruption and to restore trust and integrity to public institutions. There have been too many scandals. There have been too many rorts. There have been too many things that Australians have just shaken their heads at when it comes to the use of Commonwealth funds and the behaviour of certain Commonwealth officials. This bill, the National Anti-Corruption Commission Bill, is the start of turning around that tawdry episode in Australian politics. I commend the bill to the chamber.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The debate on the second reading of the bills has concluded. The vote on the second reading will take place tomorrow.</para>
<para>Senate adj o u r ned at 20:23</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>