
<hansard version="2.2" noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd">
  <session.header>
    <date>2019-07-25</date>
    <parliament.no>46</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>1</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
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    <business.start>
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            <span style="font-weight:bold;"></span>
            <a type="" href="Chamber">Thursday, 25 July 2019</a>
          </span>
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          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Scott Ryan)</span> took the chair at 09:30, read prayers and made an acknowledgement of country.</span>
        </p>
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    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Meeting</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion relating to the consideration of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and a related bill.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Leader of the Government in the Senate is entitled to deny leave, but I would make the point that there have been many occasions on which he and the Manager of Government Business in the Senate have moved motions in this chamber on the basis that they have been provided to the Clerk, but many senators have not yet received them. The leader of the government saying he hasn't seen it because his manager hasn't provided it to him is really not a basis to deny leave.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is a courtesy granted by each individual senator. There is no need for the basis or the reason for it being denied or otherwise to be explained. I appreciate the point you have made, Senator Wong. Senator Patrick, there are a couple of options here. You can move to suspend. You can give the government time to look at it. You can seek leave to move a motion at any time if leave is granted later. I call you now with those options before you.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice of motion, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would prevent me moving a motion relating to the conduct of business, namely a motion relating to the consideration of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and a related bill.</para></quote>
<para>There has been considerable doubt in respect of the constitutionality of this bill that the Senate is considering. The constitutionality of the measures contained in the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 effectively providing for the temporary exclusion of Australian citizens from their own country remains highly uncertain. In 1988 the High Court struck down a law that imposed an immigration clearance fee on all persons, including citizens arriving in Australia by air. The unanimous decision of the court confirmed that:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the right of Australian citizens to enter the country is not qualified by any law imposing a need to obtain a licence or 'clearance' from the executive …</para></quote>
<para>Entry also cannot depend on holding a passport. There is no unqualified right to a passport, but legal advice to the government has long been to the effect that an Australian citizen cannot lawfully be denied entry even without a passport.</para>
<para>In the 1960s the Australian government adopted stalling techniques to prevent Australian journalist Wilfred Burchett from returning. Burchett was a communist living overseas and was strictly condemned by the government as a traitor. He was repeatedly denied access to a passport. However, cabinet records released by the National Archives show that the government was well aware, on advice from the Attorney-General's Department, that Burchett could not lawfully be kept out of Australia. That advice was kept secret for more than 30 years. That's a bit of history, but the constitutional uncertainty about this bill is very current.</para>
<para>We've had the President of the Law Council raising concerns about this. We have had Professor Helen Irving also raising concerns about this, but I can take you to the bill itself. If we go to section 30 of the bill, severability, it says, 'If section 14 is not a valid law of the Commonwealth'—you've got a contingency in here in the event that this is not constitutional. It's not me that's saying this, it's the government saying that this may not be constitutional. If this bill turns out not to be constitutional, you're going to remove the review right. We're talking about people—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's conditional legislation.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, conditional legislation—thank you, Senator Wong. This is simply not acceptable. I know the government is of the view that you do not have to provide legal advice. That view is inconsistent with the laws of this country, and I refer you to <inline font-style="italic">Odgers</inline>—if you care to read that over the weekend, you might learn a little bit about legal professional privilege—but, if there's any doubt about that, I refer you to Egan v Chadwick. The New South Wales Court of Appeal—I'm sure Senator Keneally will tell you all about it, because I think she was there at the time—said that the parliament has a right to see the legal advice upon which the government is making decisions. An essential part of the oversight role of the parliament is to make sure we fully understand what it is that you are presenting. In this case it's critically important. This is a matter of whether or not this bill is constitutional.</para>
<para>I'll tell you in my second reading speech that we support the principles of the bill, but we don't want to have a situation where the first time a TEO is issued the matter ends up in the High Court. That's not the way we should be making laws. It's not good law unless we are satisfied as to its constitutionality. Some of the constitutional matters of concern relate to whether or not you can prohibit an Australian returning to Australia, and I think it's relatively clear that you can't stop an Australian coming to this country. That was the unanimous ruling of the High Court in 1988.</para>
<para>The second concern is the government's own concern, because it's in their bill, as to whether or not the review that they have established is lawful and whether or not they're actually using executive power to in some way constrain someone. When there's a control order, it has to be a judge that issues the control order. This is a step in a direction where ministers can in effect provide punitive action against Australian citizens without a court. We need to see that advice. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will be opposing this suspension. The matters that Senator Patrick has raised in his contribution are appropriately dealt with in the context of the debate on legislation, which is now delayed because of the steps that he has taken. This is government business time. This is a time for the government to bring on legislation. This is very important legislation. Let's remind ourselves what this is about. This is about making sure that the government of Australia has the capacity to appropriately manage risk in relation to Australians who have decided to fight as foreign terrorist fighters in overseas battle zones. The number one responsibility of the Australian government here is to keep the Australian community safe.</para>
<para>I completely respect that as part of the consideration of this legislation there were matters that Senator Patrick raised and that the shadow Attorney-General, Mr Dreyfus, sought to pursue in the House of Representatives. Then, after the House of Representatives decided to reject his views and reject the amendments he put forward, the Labor Party voted in favour of the bill as a whole. All of these matters that Senator Patrick just raised will be appropriately dealt with in the course of the debate on the legislation. To seek to essentially procedurally derail the proper consideration of the government's agenda is not the appropriate way forward.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Patrick</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise on a point of order, Madam Deputy President. The motion does not seek to delay. It seeks to have an order for the production—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not a point of order, Senator Patrick. That's a debating point.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Patrick</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just correcting the basis of the motion—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm asking you to resume your seat.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Right now, if the procedural step that Senator Patrick just took had not been taken, we would be dealing with the second reading debate on what is a very important piece of legislation to keep the Australian community safe. We would be going into the committee stage in consideration of this bill. During that committee consideration stage, it is of course open to Senator Patrick to ask questions of the minister dealing with the legislation to satisfy himself in relation to all of the issues he's concerned about. This is not the way to deal with these matters and it is preventing the government from properly pursuing its legislative agenda consistent with its business program here in the Senate. On that basis, the government can't agree to it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course the government should release the Solicitor-General's advice on the temporary exclusion order legislation. Of course they should. It's not just Senator Patrick who thinks they should. It's not just the Australian Labor Party that thinks they should. The Law Council of Australia says they should. In fact, it was the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, chaired by Liberal member Andrew Hastie and dominated by Liberal Party members, that made a recommendation that the government should release the Solicitor-General's advice and prove that this legislation is constitutional. In voting against this motion today, the government is voting against the recommendation made by its own Liberal dominated committee, with its own Liberal chair. Senators in this place—Senator Abetz, Senator Stokes and Senator Fawcett—put their names to a recommendation that called on the government to do exactly what Senator Patrick's motion is calling on the government to do here today.</para>
<para>Let's make no mistake about this. This is no small ask. This is no niggling request from Senator Patrick. This is, in fact, the very question that Australians want the answer to from this government, because Australians, this parliament, and, indeed, the Australian Labor Party want a temporary exclusion order scheme that works, that keeps Australians safe and that is constitutionally valid and will withstand a High Court challenge. It is no good this parliament passing legislation if that legislation gets thrown out by the High Court and Australians are left less safe than they would be had this legislation not passed. That is a farcical situation and yet it is the one the government is continuing to contemplate and leave in doubt.</para>
<para>Let me make clear that Labor will be doing a number of things in relation to Senator Patrick's motion. I advise the Senate that, if standing orders are suspended so that Senator Patrick can move his motion, I will move an amendment to paragraph (a) so that the motion reads, 'There be laid on the table by 11 am today by the minister.' I also advise that, because the opposition do not intend for this legislation to be delayed by this parliament, I will ask for the question to be divided so the opposition can support paragraph (a) and oppose paragraph (b).</para>
<para>Labor have always supported the intent of the temporary exclusion order legislation. We supported it in the April report of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. We supported the 18 substantive recommendations put forward by that Liberal dominated committee. We, in fact, are the party that have been consistent on the temporary exclusion order legislation. The flip-flopping has happened over there, on the government side, because you have Andrew Hastie, Julian Leeser, Senator Abetz, Senator Stoker and Senator Fawcett who have all put their names, and the Liberal Party's position, behind those 18 recommendations.</para>
<para>And what has the government done? It has rejected four of those recommendations in whole, it has rejected six of them in part and it has completely ignored one. And the one it has completely ignored is the subject of this motion here today. It has completely ignored the call from the Liberal-dominated Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security to produce advice from the Solicitor-General that shows that this legislation is constitutional.</para>
<para>It is farcical for the government to say that they can't produce it, because they'll be waiving privilege. In fact, if they even talk about the content of the Solicitor-General's advice, they are waiving privilege. And when do they do that? They do it all the time. They do it every time they talk about the medevac legislation. Then they talk all about the content of the Solicitor-General's advice; they're more than happy to put it out there for the public to see. But when it comes to a fundamental question on this legislation, which is designed to keep Australians safe from terrorists, from foreign fighters, then this government—well, they just go weak. They cannot produce, for the parliament or the Australian public, the advice from the Solicitor-General that shows that their approach—which, as Senator McAllister has pointed out, is four years late, because the UK parliament did this very same thing in 2015—on this bill is constitutional.</para>
<para>We will support this legislation because we want to see Australians safe. But we put on the record that we have concerns, and the government has yet to allay them, as to whether this legislation is constitutional. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian Greens will be supporting this motion to suspend standing orders. I place on the record that, should Senator Patrick be enabled to move the substantive motion, the Australian Greens would support both part A and part B.</para>
<para>What this debate is fundamentally about is the doctrine of separation of powers, because what this legislation seeks to do is to establish Minister Peter Dutton as judge and jury and to allow him to impose punishment on Australian citizens for alleged criminal activities. That is simply not his job. I mean, Earth to the government: that's the job of our legal system. And the doctrine of separation of powers makes it clear that courts should be allowed to fulfil that function unencumbered. In fact, as a finding of the full court of the Federal Court of Australia provides, 'It is a fundamental principle of the Australian Constitution, flowing from chapter 3, that the adjudication and punishment of criminal guilt for offences against a law of the Commonwealth is exclusively within the province of courts, exercising the judicial power of the Commonwealth.' I'll just repeat that last bit: 'exclusively within the province of courts'.</para>
<para>Now here's Peter Dutton trying to reach across that separation of powers and drag back to himself the capacity to impose punishment for alleged criminal behaviour, with no standard of proof established. This minister, Minister Dutton, is on a lifelong political crusade to undermine the rule of law in this country.</para>
<para>The Australian Greens do support the rule of law; the Australian Greens do support the separation of powers. And it is those principles that will inform the way that we vote on this matter.</para>
<para>In regard to the provision of the Solicitor-General's advice, I make the blindingly obvious point that governments regularly choose to release the advice of solicitors-general when they believe it's in their political interests to do so. I've seen it many times, previously, in the Tasmanian parliament, and I've seen it here in the Commonwealth parliament. In fact, the legal professional privilege which the government seeks to rely on is something that the government is able to waive. It is their advice. They don't need the permission of the Solicitor-General to release the advice; the government can choose to release the advice, and often do when it's in their political interests to do so.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Patrick interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that helpful interjection from Senator Patrick, who makes another blindingly obvious point: that this advice was actually paid for by the Australian people. It's actually their advice, not the government's, and they're entitled to see it.</para>
<para>At its heart, this is about allowing the Senate to have an informed debate about a bill that, on the face of it, prima facie, is unconstitutional. I'm not a lawyer, but I can read and I can listen and I know that numerous legal experts have expressed opinions that call into significant doubt the constitutionality of this legislation. We're entitled as senators in this house of review to have all the necessary information put before us by the government to allow us to have an informed debate, and we're entitled to have all the information put before us by this government that would allow every senator to make an informed decision about legislation. This government is now behaving in a secretive way and is denying us, who represent the Australian people in this place, the information that we need to do our jobs and hold the government to account. As I said, this motion will be supported by the Australian Greens.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In his short contribution, Minister Cormann was keen to wipe away, or to gloss over, the substantive issues that are engaged by the motion before us. This motion goes to the separation of powers, as other speakers have pointed out. I want to quote the public remarks by the President of the Law Council, Mr Arthur Moses. He has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A Commonwealth law may be unconstitutional if it authorises the Executive to determine and impose punishment for criminal conduct. A ministerial decision to grant a TEO is arguably punitive, and arguably invalid. In granting a TEO, a minister is effectively determining and imposing punishment for a citizen’s alleged conduct—or prospective offence—in the form of an order preventing re-entry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Protecting the safety and security of the Australian people must always be the paramount concern of Government. But rushed laws at risk of Constitutional challenge pose an unnecessary risk to national security. The Australian people must be able to have confidence that public safety and the work of our intelligence and law enforcement agencies is protected by laws and powers that are strong, proportional and without legal ambiguity.</para></quote>
<para>That was the advice that was provided to the PJCIS and that is the advice that continues to be provided by the Law Council and other senior lawyers in this country.</para>
<para>The government has put the view that we ought to wait until the committee stage and deal with this in that debate. But the problem is that the government has shown no inclination to provide the advice that has been reportedly sought by the PJCIS and is now sought by this chamber. The government has asserted that the bill is constitutional. But who in their right mind would trust these people? The government has shown over many years that it is more than happy to play with the truth when describing its legal advice. Just ask Solicitor-General Justin Gleeson. Ask him if Senator Brandis truthfully and appropriately represented his advice to the PJCIS on the constitutionality of bills. Because he didn't; he didn't at all. He misled the PJCIS, and it places this chamber in a very difficult position because we cannot rely on the advice that is provided by government in relation to constitutionality. We cannot rely on the government to provide some sort of precis of the Solicitor-General's advice, because the government has been caught time and time again actively misleading this chamber about that very matter. And do we really think that this practice stopped when Senator Brandis left this place?</para>
<para>It's not unprecedented for advice to be released. The Solicitor-General's advice has been released at least nine times in the past two decades. I want to reflect on what occurred in this chamber in relation to one of those occurrences. On Thursday, 17 February 2000, back in the Howard government, this chamber was considering the Ministers of State and Other Legislation Amendment Bill 2000. Senator Ellison advised the chamber that an opinion on the legislation had been sought from the Solicitor-General, and Senator Robert Ray on this side of the chamber then asked for that advice. Senator Ellison was happy to provide it. His comments in providing it are really instructive:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… this is a matter which does not involve an individual case. It is a technical matter, not necessarily a strategic matter. It does affect all governments of all political persuasions. Therefore, on the basis that it does not set a precedent, the government does think it should be tabled …</para></quote>
<para>We're asking for the advice today on the same basis. It is an important question to assist the chamber in assessing a policy proposition that has been put before us in the form of legislation and we do not consider that providing advice would set a precedent but we do consider that on this occasion it is necessary. It would surprise no-one that the Morrison government is less committed to transparency than the Howard government was. In fact this government falls short of the Howard government in so many ways. I'll conclude by reflecting on what Senator Ray said when he was requesting that advice from Senator Ellison 19 years ago:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Governments usually table that legal advice when it is not terribly controversial and when it assists their case; they never do it if it does not assist their case.</para></quote>
<para>The question for all of you is: does the legal advice that you're sitting on assist your case or not?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This morning I have been confronted with this amendment to the bill asking for the Minister for Home Affairs to provide the Solicitor-General's advice on the constitutionality of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019. I have had a briefing from the government with regard to the visa TEO and I am quite happy with it. I see this as a ploy to actually derail this whole bill from going through. We debated here in this chamber for quite some time yesterday. I am of the understanding that Senator Rex Patrick has been briefed by the government and could have asked these questions with regard to this. I have been assured that I could be given another briefing with regard to this. Decisions have to be made in this place with regard to this bill. We're talking about people coming into this country who have gone to fight against our values and our principles in other countries and have actually destroyed those countries, killed people, raped women and left children homeless. Those people wish to come back to Australia. I know the general feeling of the majority of the Australian people: they don't want them back in this country.</para>
<para>The bill is about stopping these people from virtually getting on a plane and coming to Australia. They have to apply for a visa. Two years then have to pass before they can get into the country so that things can be put into place in the country to make sure that they are being watched. If you listen to the comments of the Greens, you'll hear that they're more worried about their human rights and their freedom to be able to do whatever they want to do. There was no freedom given to the people whom they murdered and whose countries they destroyed but they believe that they have the right to come here to Australia. It's in the interest of the Greens to allow this to derail it and to stop it. Constitutionally I have to rely upon the government and the Solicitor-General to actually have put in place the procedures that we need to ensure that this bill is correct.</para>
<para>You, the Labor Party, put amendments forward that are just prepared to water the whole lot down. You, the Labor Party, have been so weak on border protection in this country. You are not prepared—through you, Chair. You have not done your job in protecting this country and the Australian people. I don't trust the Labor Party on border protection. You would open up the gates to allow these people in. Your amendments would do just that. They would water it down completely so that we would not be able to stop these people getting in, plus their families, plus their spouses. The people are fed up with it. People in this country are in fear about the terrorism on our streets. I am relying on the government to get this bill passed—and that this bill does comply with the Constitution and constitutionality, and that it is right to be able to pass it. I would say we need to put this in place now, and support the government on this. You're toing and froing with this, and it's just a ploy to stop it here in the parliament. I will not be supporting this motion. I want to see these people stopped from coming into the country.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There's a fundamental question here that sits on the shoulders of the Labor Party as the alternative government of Australia: why would the Labor Party want to share the legal advice to the government of Australia in relation to this matter with foreign fighters and foreign terrorists? In the end, the consequence of publishing such advice would be that it is then in the hands of those foreign fighters and foreign terrorists. We all know that immigration laws in this country are highly litigated. We know they are highly litigated, because activist lawyers such as Julian Burnside, from the Greens, will always take these matters to court. They will always stand on the side of people who want to try to undermine national security laws and our immigration laws. Yet the Labor Party want to put in the hands of those activist lawyers, foreign fighters and terrorists the legal advice upon which the government would then defend the laws of the country. That's an irresponsible act.</para>
<para>We equally see the Labor Party time-wasting on something they say they're happy to support. Indeed, in the House of Representatives, they ultimately passed this legislation completely unamended. Yet they're happy to come into this place and waste time, and potentially undermine the legal defence of this. That is the irresponsibility we see from the Labor Party, and the Labor Party ought—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Keneally, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Keneally</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham should reflect to the parliament that six Liberal members signed an amendment—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Keneally, please resume your seat. Senator Keneally, we do allow a bit of sport in this chamber, but at least try to make it sound like a point of order at the beginning.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not going to delay the chamber any further. We should dispense with this, and get on with debating the legislation and getting it passed today.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the remaining 26 seconds, I want to respectfully remind Senator Hanson that she's putting her trust in the same mob that went out of its way to put her in jail. She's giving support to the same mob that did whatever it took to take her out of the political landscape in this country and get her put—as it turned out, wrongfully—behind bars. Do not trust these people. Do not give them unfettered power.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is the motion moved by Senator Patrick to suspend standing orders be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:47]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>36</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>36</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Cormann, M</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>2</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Payne, M</name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>7</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019, Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>7</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
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            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6361">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="r6362">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>7</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and of Australia, I rise to speak about every human's highest priority. First, I want to protect Australians from the scourge of terrorism and from those who would destroy our Australian way of life, our culture and our very existence. The aim of this bill, the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and the related bill, is to protect us all from those who seek to destroy our culture. Security should be at the heart of what we do in this chamber. As our party leader said just a few minutes ago, the Labor Party and the Greens cannot demonstrate that. But we believe we can.</para>
<para>One Nation strongly supports this bill because it is aimed at complementing and strengthening our security measures and protecting Australians from the risks of imported terrorism. This bill and the related bill ensure there is no rush for those vile men and women who actively supported terrorists in the Middle East conflict in Syria—supporting ISIS, a declared terror organisation—to carry out their violent push to dominate and control innocents around them. That is core. Known for bloody, barbaric murders, rapes of women and children, and mass killings of those who could not recite passages from the Koran, these men and their deadly women supporters do not deserve in any way to be considered innocent Australians abroad. They made a conscious choice to join and support murderers whose aim is to end Western civilisation.</para>
<para>This bill ensures that authorities will have a reasonable amount of time for would-be returnees to be investigated fully, to identify the risks they may pose to the personal safety and security of the Australian people, should these terrorists return. Seriously, how could a reasonable, thinking person want one of these returnees anywhere near our families? What amount of rehabilitation will ever have us believe we are safe anywhere near these terrorists, should they return? There is no way that Pauline Hanson's One Nation will support the spread of these radical beliefs in this country—no way, truly. The Greens are off the planet if they think that these terrorists or their families should be able to come waltzing Matilda back to us, back into the arms of a tolerant and naive Australian community. Should they get away with saying 'Honey, I'm home!'?</para>
<para>The Greens have described this as a bad bill and say they will not support it. They have said that Australian citizens should not have to face the same security of conduct that non-Australian radicals would face. What rubbish! The Greens, and some in Labor, show they are anti-Australian and are thus, like terrorists, anti-human. A terrorist is a terrorist, and we do not want them here. Our view is a strong and clear one: if returnees have left Australia to fight against Australian principles, why should it be easy for them to come back—if they should come back at all?</para>
<para>Terrorism is a real and current threat to Australians and our way of life, and to our security. Since 2001, 73 Australians have been convicted of terrorism-related offences. Fifty of those are currently in jail. About 80 Australian men and women are currently in Syria or Iraq and have fought for or supported Islamic extremist groups. About 100 Australian terrorists received their just deserts, dying for nothing in the dust of a foreign country.</para>
<para>There have been seven attacks and 16 major counterterrorism disruption operations in response to potential-attack planning in Australia. These figures are terrifying in light of the thousands of Australians who would have died as a result of these attacks were they not successfully foiled by our police and security personnel. Vigilance by the government is needed to protect our citizens, and strong laws are necessary to maintain the excellent success rate of Australian counterterrorism measures. Please think about this: one of the scariest statistics related to terrorism in Australia is that Australia's national terrorism threat level is at 'probable'.</para>
<para>Pauline Hanson's One Nation is proud to support this bill. It takes a deservedly tough stance and provides an approach that is clear that, as a country, we take the terrorist threat seriously and are prepared to provide a tough response to ensure people's security. That concern is foremost with Pauline Hanson's One Nation. Please consider these further thoughts: already, dual citizens can have their Australian citizenship revoked providing the government complies with high hurdles. That's already the case. Those who are Australian only cannot have their citizenship revoked under international convention. Although, after listening to people across our state, I know that many Australians—me among them—would like to stop these terrorists returning altogether, they are, in fact, allowed and entitled to return.</para>
<para>This bill enables our immigration and counterterrorism experts to do their job of assessing threats, with the sole purpose of protecting law-abiding Australians. The government cannot stop Australian citizens from returning, yet temporary exclusion orders can delay the return of terrorists until their threat can be adequately assessed and measures put in place to protect the security of ourselves and our families. Government has three primary roles—protecting life, protecting property and protecting freedom. This basic and practical approach has long driven Pauline Hanson's One Nation, and we commend the government for introducing this bill.</para>
<para>Our opponents will claim there are human rights issues. The reality is that opponents put the rights of criminals and terrorists ahead of the rights of law-abiding Australian citizens. I say Australians and their families have a right to safety, peace, freedom and security in our own country. Our Constitution was written at a time when it was assumed that inhabitants of our country were loyal to our country. Sadly, after three decades of the Liberal-Labor duopoly relaxing immigration standards, we now have homegrown and foreign terrorists who want to destroy our country and what our country stands for. Australians who have self-selected themselves out of Australian values to fight for a barbaric political ideology will still have the right to judicial review of the minister's decision. This bill simply ensures that there is a process for managing the return of so-called Australian citizens subject to them complying with reasonable conditions to ensure our security. It is a hardline bill, and we like that. It is a hardline bill because these barbarians have, through their own behaviour and free choices, tossed aside Australian values and the values of Western civilisation.</para>
<para>I'd like to take some time now to discuss the fundamentals of immigration. Having worked briefly in Mount Isa many years ago, I can proudly point to it as a success story. Immigrants from nations all over the world with values similar to and compatible with Australian values are a large part of the success of that once-remote community. Mount Isa generated and continues to generate enormous wealth for the townspeople, the North Queensland region, our state and our nation. Mount Isa proudly exports its products and its world-famous expertise worldwide. It does so because people of many backgrounds have settled and consciously and willingly chosen to assimilate and integrate, after being selected to immigrate based on their ability to assimilate and integrate and to contribute productively. Our country also has a mix of races, and we do not advocate selecting people or in any way treating people separately based on their race. Mount Isa's success was not driven on the basis of race, religion or nationality; yet tens of thousands of immigrants now call Australia home and they have settled in and do us proud. In Pauline Hanson's One Nation, we will discuss race, and we do, yet we will never proclaim one race is superior to another or deserves more than another, because we want one nation. We will never be racist, nor will we let religion decide the policies here.</para>
<para>But let's move on to something separate from race and separate from religion—to ideology. We cannot say that we will not segregate on the basis of ideology, because a significant proportion of immigrants in recent years have tried to change Australian life to meet their ideology and espoused behaviour that threatens this country. For example, they want to suppress women, and they do suppress women. That is not for this country. They want to force women to wear face coverings. That is not for our country. They engage in and support paedophilia, taking child brides. That is not for Australia. They want to stone homosexuals. That is not for Australia. They want to engage in female genital mutilation. That is not for Australia. They want to practise and they want to support Sharia law. That is not for Australia—one law, one nation. They want halal certification at customers' cost—our cost, the cost of everyday shoppers in Coles, Woolies, IGA and the corner store. That is not for Australia. They want to practise polygamy, and they do practise polygamy. That is not for Australia. And they want to support terrorism, and that is not for Australia. And so on.</para>
<para>This ideology amounts to a way of structuring society to control people using control of thought and belief. Like socialism and like communism, it is an ideology. They want to use cruel, physical punishment such as beheading, beating wives, caning, throwing people off buildings and stoning. They use fear, and that is inherent in terrorism. They are the terrorists. These practices that I just listed are contrary to Australian values and to our way of life. The entry to our country of such people pushing a barbaric ideology is the exact opposite of what made Mount Isa successful. It is the exact opposite of what made Australia successful, safe and secure. How can anyone support the entry of people pushing such ideology? Anyone advocating their entry is undermining Australian values and our way of life—undermining Australia and undermining the safety of everyday Australians.</para>
<para>As our party founder, Senator Pauline Hanson, says, 'We do not treat people based on their race or their religion. We put Australians first—one nation.' That is why we advocate, as part of our immigration policy, a travel ban of the type President Trump successfully implemented, preventing entry of immigrants from nations with a proven history of terrorism or violence. Yet the Greens and some elements of Labor appear to put Australia last and certainly behind their love of virtue signalling.</para>
<para>I must express my disgust with parts of Senator Di Natale's speech last night and his stage show—yet another Di Natale stage show with his confected rage. He's putting terrorists before Australia's security. His interest is not to protect Australians; his show is to steal Labor votes. It's standard Greens practice: fabricate a problem, create a victim, then create an oppressor, then create punishment and then, to top it off, enhance political correction to silence opposition. They label people 'racists' or 'deniers' or whatever. Why? It's simply because they lack the hard data, they lack the facts and they lack a coherent argument, and so they return to labels. Whenever we hear someone being smeared by the Greens, it confirms that they do not have an argument or facts. Sadly, as the Greens move further left, the Labor Party moves like its shadow with them. But, sadly, the Liberals then try to seek the Greens' preferences.</para>
<para>This is the sorry tale of what passes for governance in our country. And who pays the price? It's everyday Aussies across our country. Who wins? The UN wins. Meanwhile, our vote grows because we have the guts to say what people are thinking—the truth. Failed Liberal-Labor policies on water, immigration, tax, infrastructure—trace them all to the loony, antihuman Greens and their UN masters. The pattern of fabricating problems, victims and PC is a classic UN-Soros practice.</para>
<para>I take this opportunity to explore the three main parts of governance—stewardship, governance itself and trusteeship. Stewardship of government assets means looking at cost of living and managing the economy properly, not the way we're seeing it being managed at the moment by making budgets to appeal to virtue signallers. Energy policy is destroying the fundamentals of our economy. On tax, multinationals are getting away scot-free. Immigration numbers are climbing out of all proportion. On security, we advocate something that Labor and Liberals need to look at: the quantity of people coming into this country needs to be cut dramatically, and the quality needs to be reassured—that is, the number and the mix of immigrants need to be properly restored. Governance, secondly, is providing for the future with a vision. That means cutting immigration numbers till our infrastructure can catch up and we get our infrastructure for water and energy. The third aspect is trusteeship of our values. This is arguably the most important of all, because culture is the most powerful determinant of productivity. Whether it be a football club, an international company, a small business or a parliament, culture is the most important determinant of productivity and prosperity, and culture is being mismanaged in this parliament.</para>
<para>Focusing on security involves three things. One is secure borders. Senator Pauline Hanson and I complimented the government three years ago for what they had done with our armed forces to ensure secure borders. What they have done, and what we have helped them to do, is to ensure that those borders are kept secure against the undermining of the Centre Alliance, the Labor Party and the Greens. Secondly, it involves personal security against terrorism. Thirdly, it involves economic security, and people seem to have forgotten that: energy policies, water policies, taxation policies and foreign policies.</para>
<para>We support immigration, at greatly reduced numbers. We want zero net immigration, and we want immigration of people consistent with Australian values and laws—people who are willing and able to assimilate and integrate, to uphold our values and our way of life. After decades of the Liberal-Labor duopoly destroying our country's productive capacity, what we in Pauline Hanson's One Nation want for Australia is a productive, safe, secure nation with its productive capacity restored. That's not too much to ask.</para>
<para>At night, we don't lock our homes because we hate the people outside; we lock our homes because we love the people inside. Government's primary role is to protect the safety, property and freedom of people already inside Australia. Pauline Hanson's One Nation supports this bill, which protects constitutional rights and the primacy of safety for everyday Australians and for families. Government's primary role is to ensure security, and that is why we will be supporting this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I politely invite Senator Roberts and Senator Hanson to listen to my contribution this morning, which is obviously going to be quite different to theirs. I might start by talking about a piece of art, a portrait that I have hanging on my wall here in parliament. It's my own. It's not a portrait of me, but it's my own art—unlike Senator Bernardi, who I understand does have a portrait of himself in his house. But I digress. I bought it at a jeans shop for $80, and it's very special to me. It's a portrait of someone who I believe to be a great Australian man, and his name is Terry Hicks. What's also special about the portrait is that it was spray-painted by a Tasmanian artist at an Amnesty International conference in Hobart a few years ago. I bought it and put it up on my wall because Terry Hicks is a personal hero of mine. I think everybody understands he crusaded for many years to bring his son, a foreign fighter by any definition—text book definition, any broader definition—back to Australia.</para>
<para>Terry Hicks was open and honest with the Australian public in his campaign to bring his son back to Australia. He said his son had been stupid, had participated in a dangerous activity, had broken the law and potentially committed crimes, and he should face the full force of the law. A man, a father's love for his son brought his son, David Hicks, back to Australia. He went through an incredibly difficult 10 years. He stood in a cage in Times Square in New York while people spat on him. He did whatever it took to highlight that his son was a human being, had made a mistake, had been highly vulnerable like a lot of young men are to the hatred and violence that's preached and radicalises young men not only in this country but all around the world. He argued to the Australian people, and successfully in the end, that his son deserved a chance at redemption, that his son deserved to come home to Australia. That's a powerful story.</para>
<para>Do I think that all foreign fighters want redemption and the chance of redemption? No, I don't. I think many of them want martyrdom. Do I believe that all foreign fighters should be redeemed? That is highly debatable. Do I believe that foreign fighters, if they have committed heinous, violent, criminal acts should face the full force of the law? Yes, I do. Do I believe that those kinds of people in Australia should be behind bars for our safety? Yes, I do believe that.</para>
<para>What I question—that's fundamental to this bill—is who gets to decide whether someone gets a chance at redemption if they want to come home to Australia? Am I happy with the fact that our minister in this portfolio, Mr Peter Dutton, gets to decide who gets a chance at redemption? No, I'm not. Am I happy that a secret process that involves a minister, an often highly political environment and an intelligence agency making deliberations in a highly-secret environment get to decide who gets this chance? No, I'm not happy with that either. My colleagues have made very powerful arguments, as have other senators in this chamber, in the last 24 hours about the need for judicial oversight, separation of powers and the need to have a process that at least gives a right of appeal and doesn't hand unilateral decision-making process to a minister of the Crown. Enough has been said on that.</para>
<para>I would like to raise an issue that hasn't been raised in this debate so far that I think absolutely needs to be raised as a matter of public interest and that, I believe, has been an oversight. It's important in the context of what I raised about David Hicks and Terry Hicks because, when we have debated this bill in this chamber, the focus has been very clearly on foreign fighters, but if you have a look at clause 10 of this bill—making a temporary exclusion order—paragraph (2) says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2)   The Minister must not make a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person unless either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (a)   the Minister suspects on reasonable grounds that making the order would substantially assist in one or more of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i)   preventing a terrorist act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii)   preventing training from being provided to, received from or participated in with a listed terrorist organisation;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii)   preventing the provision of support for, or the facilitation of, a terrorist act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv)   preventing the provision of support or resources to an organisation that would help the organisation engage in an activity described in paragraph (a) of the definition of terrorist organisation in subsection 102.1(1) of the Criminal Code; or—</para></quote>
<para>and this is the bit I would like to focus on—</para>
<quote><para class="block">   (b)   the person has been assessed by the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation to be directly or indirectly a risk to security (within the meaning of the Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Act 1979) for reasons related to politically motivated violence (within the meaning of that Act).</para></quote>
<para>Is that definition broad enough to allow the minister to decide whether someone has citizenship rights in this country if they deem a person, an Australian citizen, to be a threat to national security? Well, I'm not a lawyer, but I have checked with legal experts and with the Australian Lawyers Alliance and their spokesperson on criminal justice, Greg Barns, and their comments were that this provision is extraordinarily broad. How might ASIO think that a person is directly or indirectly a risk to security because of some link to terrorism or concerns over politically motivated violence? What exactly does that mean? Would this clause allow a minister, under a secretive process with no recourse, total power to make deliberations about an Australian citizen overseas who may be a journalist or a whistleblower or who may be passing on secret information that they believe is in the public interest and is part of their role as a journalist? Could this interfere with press freedoms? Well, the Australian Lawyers Alliance say yes, that is what they believe.</para>
<para>So yet again we have another law before this parliament that allows Minister Peter Dutton extraordinary power over whistleblowers and journalists that this government—remember the political context of this—may consider to be a threat to national security. We see whistleblowers, media organisations and journalists who have published material, such as, in the very famous case of WikiLeaks, the Iraq war logs, or even the trove of materials that Edward Snowden released, which was published all around the world. Much of that work received big journalism awards for acting in the public interest. How is it that this parliament is going to pass a bill that gives those kinds of powers to a minister at a time when there are especially significant concerns in this country over what we have seen as a crackdown on press freedoms even in recent days and recent weeks, let alone lingering concerns that we have debated in previous legislation around the powers of our national security agencies? Take WikiLeaks. Does any senator in this chamber believe that ASIO, for example, may not make an adverse finding against someone in WikiLeaks or working for WikiLeaks on the basis of past history? We know that the issue that WikiLeaks is a potential threat to Australia's national security has already been raised by ASIO under previous administrations.</para>
<para>We had a very clear situation in the United Kingdom with David Miranda, a Brazilian national who was stopped in transit between Berlin and Rio de Janeiro after meeting a filmmaker. He had been carrying encrypted files, including an external hard drive containing 58,000 highly classified UK intelligence documents that had been released by Edward Snowden. In order to assist the journalistic activity of Greenwald, <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> had made his travel reservations and had paid for his trip.</para>
<para>As it turned out, he was detained under a law in the UK that essentially labelled his activities as 'terrorist activity'. He was seized and put into detention, even though the courts agreed it was an indirect interference with press freedom. The security agencies in the UK took a journalist, seized his documents and held him in detention under a terrorism law—a new law that had been brought in that allowed them to do so. So clearly a national security agency had made a decision that a journalist carrying out their job was contrary to the UK's national interests and, indeed, was a threat to the UK's national interest.</para>
<para>It's interesting that that same journalist was awarded a journalistic prize. Even though a Pulitzer Prize was given to Greenwald, Miranda, <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">The Washington Post</inline> for publishing the Snowden material, which revealed illegal spying and surveillance of the US and its allies in the post-9/11 world, and even though they'd won the biggest global journalistic prize in recognition for their work, they were labelled as terrorists. Acting Deputy President Farrell, you know that in this place I have queried the use of that word. I have grave concerns. I think it's one of the most misused words in the English language. It's highly subjective. It's often a real problem for the media to use that word, but throwing that word around is not a problem that politicians have. We have very strict definitions in our country as to what constitutes a terrorist activity, but, in my opinion, it is one of the most misused words in our modern dialogue.</para>
<para>A number of very high-profile politicians have called those journalists terrorists because they believed that the releasing of these documents had aided and abetted terrorist organisations. It's a very fine line that we deal with here, and I happen to believe that journalists going about their job in what they believe to be the public interest shouldn't be put in the firing line. We shouldn't be giving extraordinary powers to Minister Peter Dutton and our national security agency to make a determination as to whether you are an Australian citizen, have the rights of an Australian citizen and can re-enter the country.</para>
<para>Let's go back to David Hicks. What underlined that campaign was that he was an Australian citizen and he had rights to come back into this country. Regardless about what you thought about what he did and the situation he found himself in, where he ended up in Guantanamo Bay, he was brought back to Australia by a conservative government, as it turned out in the end, because he was an Australian citizen and he had rights. This bill gives the ability to a minister to take away those rights. This bill gives the ability to a minister to take away the rights of whistleblowers and journalists who may simply pass on information. And it may not necessarily be about Australia's direct national interests; it may be that one of our allies requests that the information that had been passed on is not in our national interest. It's been well covered in this chamber already.</para>
<para>I'd like to raise a couple more issues in the few minutes that I have left. Firstly, I understand that we've got a lot of work that we have to do in this place. We've got some huge issues facing our country and our future, and I do question whether this bill is just part of an ongoing culture war. Yes, I do see sinister intent behind this, but I also see political intent. I see a government wanting to go out there and, straight out of the conservative rule book, flag that it's strong on national security and strong on defence, those paternal characteristics that so underpin conservative politics. As we understand from Labor's contribution yesterday, the bill's been questioned by the closed-shop, black-box joint parliamentary committee of Labor and the Liberals. It's been questioned by them. We understand the government won't be tabling advice from the Solicitor-General, which no doubt also questions the legality and constitutionality of this bill. It's been rammed through this place, and for what purpose? Well, I reckon it's for political purposes. You can argue all you like that the government needs more powers to hold foreign fighters to account—or whistleblowers or journalists to account—but it can't be done at the expense of due process. It can't be done at the expense of taking power away from the parliament and giving more power to the executive.</para>
<para>And I've got to say: I heard Senator Keneally's contribution in here yesterday and she provided a very detailed, very moving account of why we should be rejecting this bill. Considering all that Labor have provided in the last 24 hours about why this bill shouldn't be passed by parliament, why it should be rejected, for the life of me I don't understand why Labor would vote for this bill in the end. I get that they believe they're a party of government and there's this longstanding convention that they support each other in matters like this, but I don't accept it. That's not a good enough reason. It's actually weak. I get that they want to play small target so they're not criticised by the government's propaganda arm in some of the Murdoch publications. I get it. But it's not a good enough reason for turning your back on a very sinister piece of legislation and a new law that gives extraordinary powers to a minister and our national security agency.</para>
<para>I haven't heard anything from Labor—even though they might say, 'We're a party of government and we don't want to be criticised for this; we've got other things we want to focus on'—about them repealing these laws. I'm happy to be proven wrong, if they become a party of government. This is the problem: with this ratchet effect, I'm highly doubtful and very cynical that Labor, if they got into government, would claw back any of these extraordinary powers that have been given to our Border Force minister.</para>
<para>I stand with my colleagues the Australian Greens, Senator Patrick and others, who are the real opposition in this chamber, who are prepared to stand up and say, 'This is totally unacceptable.' We all agree that we need to work to manage the risks to our citizens. We all understand the importance of national security. But some of us understand the importance of due process and not giving too much power to the executive. I'm sorry, but I do not see the people that we have pulling the levers in this country as the kinds of people I want to give new extraordinary powers to. There must be checks and balances. There must be due process. It is simply unacceptable that we can't do our job in this place—that we can't access documents and we can't have a Senate inquiry into the kinds of processes we're seeing set up, outside the two major parties, who are a closed shop on national security and always have been. Given this day and age, with the multitude of threats and challenges we face, it needs to be opened up to the Senate and it needs to reflect what the Australian people voted for, and that is a diverse Australian Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>By any standards the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 is an extraordinary piece of legislation. The government's proposed law is designed to establish a temporary exclusion order, or TEO, scheme to delay Australians of counterterrorism interest from re-entering Australia until what it regards as appropriate protections are in place. In large part, the bill has been developed as a measure to prevent or otherwise control the return to Australia of Australian former Islamic State fighters and supporters from Syria and elsewhere in the Middle East. This is a serious security issue and requires a serious response. But that response must be proportionate, constitutionally sound and incorporate appropriate safeguards against the arbitrary executive power consistent with our democratic society.</para>
<para>There are two core components to the TEO scheme as set out in the bill. First, an Australian citizen who is overseas may be subject to a TEO prohibiting them from returning to Australia for up to two years at a time. The TEO can be made when the minister, the Minister for Home Affairs, suspects on reasonable grounds that the order would substantially assist in preventing terrorism related activities or if ASIO assesses the person to be a risk to security for reasons related to politically motivated violence. Entering Australia if a TEO is in force would be a criminal offence, punishable by imprisonment for two years.</para>
<para>The second component of the scheme, a return permit, provides that, while a TEO is in force, a person will only be able to return to Australia where a return permit is issued by the minister. So the process is: a TEO is issued, a person subject to the TEO can seek a return order, and the minister will then provide one. Under a return permit, the minister can impose conditions to control the manner in which a person subject to the TEO may return to Australia. The return permit may specify when and how the person is to return to Australia. The bill also provides that a return permit may specify conditions with which the person must comply once they return to Australia. Failure to comply with a condition will constitute a criminal offence punishable by two years imprisonment.</para>
<para>So there's no doubt that the bill, as now before the Senate, is a very forceful security measure—an Australian citizen may be excluded from his or her own country. Under conditions set by a return permit, a person who has not been charged with any criminal offence may be subject to conditions that amount to house arrest. Like a number of other pieces of counterterrorism legislation, the bill provides the Minister for Home Affairs powers in relation to Australian citizens that would only ever be contemplated in time of war.</para>
<para>Centre Alliance is prepared to support the intent of the bill as a necessary security measure, but only with considerable reservation, and it is essential that the legislation, as it is before the parliament this week, be subjected to further and more rigorous scrutiny. The outcome must be absolutely sound, not only from a national security perspective but also in the proportionality of its effects. It must not give the minister arbitrary power and it must have robust constitutional and legal validity.</para>
<para>The bill was introduced into the 45th Parliament and, as senators are aware, the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, the PJCIS, conducted an extensive review and produced a detailed report that recommended substantive changes to the legislation. The government has now reintroduced the bill with changes that implement some of the PJCIS recommendations. The government has not fully implemented all of the recommendations of the committee's bipartisan report. In some cases, where the government has indicated in-principle support in the PJCIS, its changes fall well short. In this regard, it must be clearly understood that the bill now before the parliament is qualitatively different from both the original TEO legislation considered by the PJCIS last year and from the bipartisan recommendations made by that committee.</para>
<para>Although, from the viewpoint of the crossbench, bipartisanship between the government and the opposition can be a double-edged sword, it is important that both the coalition and Labor work cooperatively on national security measures. This week, through the statements made by the Prime Minister and the Minister for Home Affairs, and through the government's rejection in the House of Representatives of the amendments moved by Labor to bring the bill in line with the PJCIS's recommendations, there has been a significant fraying of that bipartisan approach. This is an unfortunate development that augurs ill for consideration of national security issues in this parliament.</para>
<para>Certainly no-one should be rushing to pass flawed legislation, especially when the bill deals with national security and the fundamental rights of Australians. Of course, this morning during the motion to suspend I have talked of Centre Alliance's concerns in respect of the constitutionality of the bill. The PJCIS strongly recommended that the government obtain legal advice from the Solicitor-General or an equivalent legal authority on the constitutional validity of the final form of this bill. That recommendation was consistent with the committee's approach to other constitutionally uncertain counterterrorist measures. The government has accepted that recommendation but has not made any legal advice public or available to members of parliament.</para>
<para>I heard Senator Birmingham suggest that the release of this advice would assist terrorists. Look, if the advice is solid, in fact, it would deter terrorists from seeking to litigate. And, indeed, if this legislation is flawed or if the advice is in some way flawed, don't think for a moment that people can't just engage a very learned QC or SC, and they'll come up with the holes. So it's a bit disingenuous for Senator Birmingham to suggest that releasing this advice would be of some advantage to a terrorist. If there are shortfalls or constitutional uncertainties, let them be laid before the table and let us deal with those concerns. Let's not pass into law things that we know will end up in the High Court.</para>
<para>There is no shortage of precedents where the government has publicly released or otherwise made available to non-government parliamentarians advice from the Solicitor-General concerning the constitutional standing of proposed laws. The government should make its legal advice available to the parliament and to the Senate and it should do so today. I note that Senator Hanson indicated that she's been briefed on that legal advice. I point out to the government that that means privilege has been waived. You can no longer claim privilege over a document whereby you have surrendered confidentiality.</para>
<para>While the ultimate determination of constitutional validity would rest with the High Court, the parliament is duty-bound to satisfy itself that proposed laws are constitutional, and the government is duty-bound to share that advice concerning what are, I repeat, by any standards extraordinary legislative measures. Among the other significant departures from the PJCIS's recommendations, the government has not accepted the PJCIS's recommendation that the minister must not make a temporary exclusion order in respect of a person unless the minister reasonably suspects that the person is or has been involved in terrorism-related activities outside Australia and making the order would substantially assist in preventing the provision, support or facilitation of a terrorist act. That would be, in my view, a more appropriate threshold for the exercise of the power contained in this bill. Yet, as the bill presently stands, the mere existence of adverse ASIO security advice could allow the Minister for Home Affairs to rubber-stamp a TEO.</para>
<para>Secret intelligence, it should be noted, is very far from being infallible. ASIO is by and large a professional organisation, but mistakes do take place. Reliance on flawed, incorrect or fabricated information can have serious consequences and can give rise to serious injustice—the scandal around the detention of Dr Mohamed Haneef being but one example. The government has also not accepted the PJCIS's recommendation that the issuing authority for a TEO should be a judge, retired judge or senior AAT member. Instead, the bill proposes that the minister make the decision to issue the TEO, and then his decision is subject to a very narrowly defined review process by a judge, retired judge or senior AAT member. In this regard, it is important to note the observations of the Law Council yesterday. Mr Moses made this point:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A Commonwealth law may be unconstitutional if it authorises the Executive to determine and impose punishment for criminal conduct. A ministerial decision to grant a TEO is arguably punitive, and arguably invalid. In granting a TEO, a minister is effectively determining and imposing punishment for a citizen’s alleged conduct – or prospective offence - in the form of an order preventing re-entry. If such an order is to be made to exclude an Australian citizen from entering Australia, it is the Law Council’s view it should be made by a court, not a Minister.</para></quote>
<para>The government's review authority is also deeply problematic in many other ways. It will not necessarily be able to examine the full scope of ASIO material available to the minister and, indeed, may effectively be denied access to the material. This is a funny thing about our system: the person that would be asked to review the minister's decision will have to have a security clearance. The minister can decide not to pass information on if it's not in the public interest to do so, yet the minister doesn't have a security clearance. It's a crazy situation that we have in our current regime, and I have a bill before the parliament trying to rectify that.</para>
<para>The review authority may amount to little more than a rubber stamp process for the minister's decision, and it raises its own constitutional issues, in addition to those raised by the TEO scheme as a whole. If we look at section 30 of the bill—I read it out before—it says that it's in the event that this law is not valid. The government know that there's a problem here; they put a provision in the bill in the event that it's unconstitutional. Let's stop and make provisions that prevent that unconstitutionality. In effect, the bill, as now presented to the parliament, could result in the Minister for Home Affair rubberstamping an exclusion order and another reviewer or authority just rubberstamping his decisions.</para>
<para>At every level, this legislation requires much further scrutiny. The bill, as now constructed by the government, should be referred back to the PJCIS for further detailed examination. This approach is strongly supported by the Law Council, which said yesterday:</para>
<quote><para class="block">But rushed laws at risk of Constitutional challenge pose an unnecessary risk to national security.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When it comes to matters of national security, Parliament must take the time to get laws right. That is why we are calling on the Senate to send it back to the PJCIS for further scrutiny.</para></quote>
<para>We also need to look again at the question of the parliament's oversight of ASIO and other parts of the Australian intelligence community. Time and time again, the government has asked the parliament to give them new national security powers—many of them exercised in secret. Home affairs minister, Peter Dutton, and his security portfolio agency now exercise an array of powers greater than any of those exercised by any government since the national emergency of the Second World War.</para>
<para>However, parliament must not merely hand over power to the executive. Parliament must play its role in the scrutiny of our intelligence agencies, and we must end the self-imposed restriction on parliament's scrutiny of the operational performance of our intelligence and national security agencies. At present the PJCIS's role is limited to considering matters of finance and administration, and is explicitly prohibited from reviewing operational performance. This limitation is in contrast to parliamentary oversight in the other Five Eyes countries—the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada. Centre Alliance has sought to remedy this deficiency through its Intelligence Services Amendment (Enhanced Parliamentary Oversight of Intelligence Agencies) Bill 2018, and I have circulated amendments to the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019 that, again, seek to expand the role of the PJCIS in a way closely modelled on the Canadian oversight arrangements.</para>
<para>In addition, Centre Alliance will also move a second reading amendment that provides the bill and any circulated amendments to this bill be referred to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security for inquiry and report by 11 September 2019. Further, Centre Alliance's motion will propose that further consideration of the bill be made an order of the day for the first sitting day after the PJCIS has reported. The government's—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, can I confirm that you are moving that motion now?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, I'm just foreshadowing a second reading amendment. The government has demanded that the Senate pass this legislation this week. The opposition has spoken out loudly about the flaws of the bill, the government's refusal to adopt all of the PJCIS's recommendations and the importance of bipartisanship in national security policy. The government has refused to engage and has said, 'Take it or leave it.' As I've said, no-one should be rushing to pass this legislation, especially when the bill deals with national security and the fundamental rights of Australian citizens. The PJCIS should do its job and review the legislation again, and the Senate should do its job properly as well.</para>
<para>Labor should do its job and not just talk and pontificate but oppose measures that they have said are flawed, likely unconstitutional and, consequently, unlikely to properly support national security. I seem to recall, when we were talking about the media raids, Mr Albanese saying to the media that no longer would the Labor Party just tick and flick legislation. They know there are problems with this bill, yet they're going to tick and flick it. They know there are problems; I listened to Senator Keneally's speech. We'll be supporting their amendments because they seek to rectify the bill. And, if those amendments are successful, we will support the bill.</para>
<para>I get what we're trying to do here. We're trying to stop those bad eggs getting to Australia and causing security issues. What Centre Alliance is concerned about is the innocent person who might just happened to have been in Jordan doing some work with a mission and happened to be photographed in a bar—probably not a bar, there, but in a place or at an event—where there might be people who are bad eggs. That photograph is then presented to the minister. That person may be completely innocent but the way it works at the moment is that the minister can make a determination and that determination gets reviewed, but not on the merits. There's no challenge to whether or not the photograph is correct. The review authority simply says, 'Did the minister make his decision informed by an ASIO brief?' That means that that very innocent citizen is now in a position where, in order to challenge the TEO, in order to challenge the re-entry permit conditions, they have to take the matter to the Federal Court or the High Court, at great expense.</para>
<para>In every other scenario where we have the executive making a decision, we give them an avenue like the AAT so they can present their position. There's not even a chance for the person subject to the TEO to put up a case and say, 'That photograph was taken, but I don't even know these people.' That's the problem that Centre Alliance has. It's not about the way in which you're trying to stop bad eggs getting to Australia and making sure we control them if they're Australian citizens; it's about protecting the innocent people. As such, we won't be supporting the bill. We will be abstaining unless the amendments Labor have moved are passed.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, if you wish to move a second reading amendment, you need to move that before the minister rises.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add: ", and:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the bills and any circulated amendments to the bills be referred to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security for inquiry and report by 11 September 2019; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) further consideration of the bills be made an order of the day for the first sitting day after the committee has reported."</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank all senators for their contributions to the debate on the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and the consequential bill. Senator Patrick just called this an extraordinary bill, and I agree with him. It is extraordinary for very good reasons. This hasn't been a rushed bill. It is balanced, and it is required now.</para>
<para>Around 230 Australians have travelled to Syria and Iraq to fight in the name of ISIL since 2012. Though many have died in fighting, many of those who survive intend to return to Australia, a country whose values and way of life—and responsibilities as citizens—they have rejected. Indeed, the advice of our national security agencies is that, following the recent collapse of the Islamic State's territorial control in Syria and Iraq, many of these people will be seeking to return to Australia in the very near future. Their return, and the significant risks they pose, must be carefully managed. It must be controlled in the interests of all Australians and our national security.</para>
<para>As we already know, the threat beyond our shores is also resident here in Australia. Since 12 September 2014, when the national terrorism level was raised, our police and security agencies have thwarted 16 terrorist attacks right here in Australia. It is against this backdrop, and on the advice of our intelligence and law enforcement agencies, that the government has introduced the temporary exclusion orders bill and advocates for its urgent passage. Keeping Australian communities safe from those who seek to do us harm is, and will always continue to be, this government's No. 1 priority.</para>
<para>But let us be very clear who we are talking about to be the subject of this legislation. These are not Australians who have taken themselves and their families on a war zone, a conflict zone, Contiki tour. These are Australian citizens who have enjoyed the rights of, and also the responsibilities accorded by, Australian citizenship: the right to live in a free and open society free from fear. These people have now come to the attention of counterterrorism interest. Why? It is because they travelled to Syria and Iraq. Maybe, in a few cases, they went unknowingly, but many actively went to support the work of ISIS—a terrorist organisation that has inflicted rape, torture and death on innocent people in both Iraq and Syria, an organisation that sought to subjugate people to the tyranny through force of arms.</para>
<para>Some of these people even took their own children with them to be trained to hate, to become martyrs, to become murderers, to become jihadi, and they raised their children under the ideology of terrorism and hate—the so-called 'cubs of the caliphate'. Now they want to return to Australia to benefit, once again, from the rights of being an Australian citizen. I'd ask all in this place: are you comfortable with having these Australians returning to Australia uncontrolled and unsupervised? We have to make sure, as much as we can, that they are safe to live next door to you or your constituents and that it is safe for their children to go to school with your children. Our view is that we must have formal controls in place to manage their return and allow Australian authorities the time they need to gather any outstanding evidence and to finalise any prosecution that may be required. This is why we are introducing these temporary exclusion orders—to keep Australian communities safe.</para>
<para>There have been many claims made in this debate by those opposite. They undoubtedly will be raised again when we go into committee, so I'll leave the rebuttal of those issues until that point. But I would make these two points. There's been a lot of discussion in the chamber that these are unfettered rights—and, again, there's been a lot of demonisation of the Minister for Home Affairs. Any cursory read of this bill would demonstrate that what they have said is patently untrue. All decisions by the home affairs minister to make a TEO are subject to administrative review before the TEO can be put in force, and they are subject to judicial review as well. So that first claim by those opposite is patently untrue and fearmongering.</para>
<para>The second issue that we've debated and discussed at some length today is about the release of the Solicitor-General's advice. I'd say two things in relation to that. Firstly, as has been pointed out, this government will never, ever release information that would be patently of use to terrorists and their own lawyers. That, simply, is something we would never support. Secondly, we did seek that advice at the recommendation of the Law Council of Australia and the Human Rights Commission. I understand they are happy with the fact that we did that. They asked it and we did that.</para>
<para>In conclusion, I'd like to acknowledge the significant work in this regard on this bill by the ministry of home affairs, ASIO, the AFP and the Office of Parliamentary Counsel. I thank also my colleagues for their debate and consideration. It's for these reasons that I commend these two bills to the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Patrick be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:19]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>34</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M (teller)</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>36</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>3</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Cash, M</name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I just confirm that you're actually putting the second reading question?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am. The question now is that the bills be read a second time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:23]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>59</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bills read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>18</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Reynolds, in your speech concluding the second reading debate you quite rightly pointed out that there are opportunities to review ministerial decisions in the context of this legislation. Can you firstly clarify that those opportunities do not extend to reviews of the merits of the minister's decision? Secondly, can you confirm that they are limited to the making of a TEO and not other aspects of this legislation—for example, varying the provisions of a TEO?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Through you, Chair: yes, I can confirm that it is subject to an administrative review before it comes into force, and then afterwards it is subject to judicial review.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps you didn't hear my question. The question specifically was: can you confirm that the judicial review is limited to matters of law and is not a merits review—in other words, that it is not possible to challenge the decision of a minister to issue a temporary exclusion order based on the merits of his or her decision, as opposed to challenging it on the question of whether or not the minister has lawfully made that decision?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, it is subject to administrative review, and this process is consistent with other national security legislation where speed is of the essence.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can play this game all day, Minister. We can sit here till the cows come home, as far as I'm concerned, so I'll just ask the question again and I hope you can actually answer it, rather than answering a completely different question that, with respect, you weren't asked. Is the decision of a minister to issue a temporary exclusion order able to be reviewed judicially based on the merits of the minister's decision—yes or no?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, Senator McKim, that you didn't actually understand the legislation or my, I think, very clear enunciation of it, but the answer is yes, and I'll explain why. Allowing merits review would lengthen the decision-making process and could enable a person to return to Australia without adequate notice or control of their return. So—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So in fact the answer is no.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: Senator McKim, wait for the call. You have the call now.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, I have very clearly outlined the process in terms of administrative review before it is enacted and then the opportunity for judicial review through the Federal Court or the High Court.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you have just informed this chamber that the judicial review can consider the merits of the minister's decision. I think you've actually said the wrong word. I invite you to correct the record. The question is: is the minister's decision able to be appealed in the courts based on the merits of the minister's decision? You have just answered, 'Yes.' I invite you to reconsider that answer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, I have nothing more to add. I have been factually correct, and there's nothing more to add. You can keep ping-ponging this backwards and forwards, but I've made a very clear enunciation of the requirement.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to untangle this a bit. Perhaps there's some confusion. It's clear that, when the minister makes a TEO, it's passed pretty much on the same day to a reviewing authority, which is not a court. My question firstly is: in that initial stage, where the reviewing authority looks at it, can the reviewing authority look at it on the basis of the merits? And, secondly, can you confirm that there is an option available to someone to seek judicial review in the Federal Court or the High Court in respect of the TEO, irrespective of the review by the reviewing authority?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, my answer is the same as it was to Senator McKim. If your question is, 'Can the reviewing authority review the length or conditions of a TEO?' they can. The administrative review is of the lawfulness of the minister's decision. That is done by the reviewing authority before it becomes lawful.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just restricting the question to the reviewing authority—not a judicial review—I'll try and tease this out a bit with an example. The minister is presented with some information by ASIO that suggests that someone is a security risk or someone might be involved in terrorist activities if they were to return to Australia. On the basis of that advice from ASIO, the minister makes a decision. The question is: when the decision is then handed to the reviewing authority, is the reviewing authority able to look at those same reasons and perhaps overturn the decision on the basis of something that he or she thinks is flawed?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, I think the EM and the bill itself are actually very clear on that answer. In case you haven't had the opportunity to read the EM and the accompanying material, I'll tell you what the test for the reviewing officer considers. The reviewing authority decides if any of the following apply: it was an improper exercise of the power to make the TEO, the decision was induced or affected by fraud, or, if the decision was made under section 10(2)(a), whether the minister could have formed the required state of mind based on the information considered by the minister. So, again, it is quite comprehensive and freely available for your perusal in the EM and other documents.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So none of those items you mentioned in the provisions go to the merits of what's actually on the advice? In some sense, the act is silent; it says what can be considered. I'm trying to work out whether the reviewing authority is prohibited from considering some of the content of the advice—whether or not there is a discretion of the reviewing authority to look at that advice and come to a different conclusion from the minister.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, again, to be really clear: I have just gone through what the administrative review takes into consideration, but all decisions under the bill are judicially reviewable, and that includes merits based review for the judicial review.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that there's a further process where you can refer a decision to the Federal Court. I'm just restricting my questions to the review that takes place by the reviewing authority, typically within the same day as the minister's decision, and whether or not that reviewing authority has a discretion—because the act is silent on this—to look at the advice that ASIO had provided the minister and come to a different conclusion from the minister.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, I once again say the answer is that what that review considers is very clearly spelled out in the legislation and in the EM. But, in relation to the exclusion of the ADJR Act review, this is necessary, as I have said a couple of times already, due to the need for speed in relation to this. So the further judicial review by the Federal Court or the High Court can take a merits based approach and also consider the decision of the administrative review, giving regard to the broader circumstances that you're talking about.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the explanatory memorandum says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Subsection 27 provides that the <inline font-style="italic">Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act 1977</inline> does not apply to decisions made under the provisions of the Bill.</para></quote>
<para>You have rightly pointed out that judicial review of the TEO decision and the review authority's consideration is available under section 75(v) of the Constitution and section 39B of the Judiciary Act. Could you please outline for the Senate what difference there is between an appeal taken under the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act and consideration of a review under the Constitution or the Judiciary Act. What is the difference between the two opportunities, one of which is not provided for in this legislation and one of which is?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, all I can do is repeat yet again what I've already said: the exclusion of the ADJR Act review is necessary in the circumstances to deal with the expedited requirement for these TEOs in certain circumstances. We believe this has got the right balance between the need for expedition but also the right for judicial review.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to confirm: Minister, your very clear advice to the Senate—and I'm not talking about the administrative review here; I'm talking about the judicial review, which is in our courts as opposed to in the administration. I'm asking you to once again confirm that the judicial review opportunities that are available, according to the paperwork attached to this bill under section 75(v) of the Constitution and 39B of the Judiciary Act, do provide for a merits review of an appeal based on the merits of the minister's decision. I think we need to be really clear about this, so I hope my question is clear. I'll say it again while I know your advisors are communicating with you. My question is: under the judicial review opportunities available under section 75(v) of the Constitution and section 39B of the Judiciary Act, is it possible under both of those provisions or either of those provisions to ask the courts to review the minister's decision based on the merits of that decision, as opposed to based on the question of whether or not the minister has obeyed the law in making that decision?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, thank you very much for asking the same question now about six times in a row. If you're wondering about the constitutionality of the circumstance, what I can confirm is this: under the Judiciary Act and the Constitution, it allows for judicial review relating to the legality of the TEO. I cannot be clearer than that—again.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, thank you. So you have confirmed that it allows for a review based on the legality of the decision. I understand that but that is not my question. Does it provide for a review based on the merits of the minister's decision? Yes or no, Minister? Yes or no? You keep getting up and saying that it provides for a review based on the legality of the decision. There is no question in my mind and I presume in the minds of any other senator about that. The question in my mind is: do those provisions in section 75(v) of the Constitution and/or section 39B of the Judiciary Act provide for an appeal against the minister's decision based on the merits of the minister's decision, as opposed to the legality of the minister's decision? Could you please just say yes or no to that question?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, I have already answered that question several times, so I'll let my previous answer stand.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Listening to this debate today, I have pulled out the Constitution and I'm going to read section 75(v), which is the original jurisdiction of the High Court. In reference to the TEO, the minister makes a decision based on what has been presented to him by the individual departments. He then makes a TEO against these people who may wish at some time to come back to Australia. In doing so—the minister may clarify this if I'm incorrect in my assessment—the minister will actually sign off on the names put before him and, once he has done that, then the reviewing officer, which is usually a retired judge or a former judge of the AAT, will actually have a look at it to make sure that the legalities are adhered to.</para>
<para>Senator McKim, 75(v) of the Constitution has absolutely nothing to do with it because it is in reference to the High Court. Section 75(v) states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(v) in which a writ of Mandamus or prohibition or an injunction is sought against an officer of the Commonwealth;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the High Court shall have original jurisdiction.</para></quote>
<para>This has got nothing to do with the High Court, and section 75(v) should never come into this debate here, so I think this is a long bow that the Greens are drawing here. So, Minister, please correct me if I'm incorrect in my assessment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much, Senator Hanson. What you said sounds very reasonable to me in terms of the interpretation of this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am just going to ask my question again. I'll use as few as words as possible. Can the courts do a merits review?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, Senator McKim, I have nothing further to add. I have answered it several times.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's like pulling teeth in here. I invite the Australian people to look at and listen to the way this minister is performing and the contempt with which she's treating this chamber. Simple question: can the courts do a merits review—yes or no?</para>
<para>The CHAIR: It being 11.45, we will report.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>20</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>20</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>22</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Dodson, I withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 3.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>22</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Selection of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>22</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>22</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the third report of 2019 of the Selection of Bills Committee. I seek leave to have the report incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The report read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Report no. 3 of 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. The committee met in private session on Wednesday, 24 July 2019 at 7.17 pm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. The committee recommends that—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">a) the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare Amendment (Assisted Reproductive Treatment Statistics) Bill 2019 be <inline font-style="italic">referred immediately</inline> to the Community Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 11 November 2019 (see appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">b) the <inline font-style="italic">provisions</inline> of the Treasury Laws Amendment (2019 Tax Integrity and Other Measures No. 1) Bill 2019 be <inline font-style="italic">referred immediately</inline> to the Economics Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 5 September 2019 (see appendix 2 for a statement of reasons for referral).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3.The committee recommends that the following bills <inline font-style="italic">not</inline> be referred to committees:</para></quote>
<list>   Agriculture Legislation Repeal Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Aged Care Amendment (Movement of Provisionally Allocated Places) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Australian Cannabis Agency Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Australian Veterans' Recognition (Putting Veterans and Their Families First) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Broadcasting Services Amendment (Audio Description) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Farm Household Support Amendment Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Health Insurance Amendment (Bonded Medical Programs Reform) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   National Health Amendment (Pharmaceutical Benefits) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Timor Sea Maritime Boundaries Treaty Consequential Amendments Bill 2019</list>
<quote><para class="block">   Passenger Movement Charge Amendment (Timor Sea Maritime Boundaries Treaty) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (2018 Measures No. 2) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (Combating Illegal Phoenixing) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (Making Sure Multinationals Pay Their Fair Share of Tax in Australia and Other Measures) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (Timor Sea Maritime Boundaries Treaty) Bill 2019.</list>
<quote><para class="block">4. The committee deferred consideration of the following bills to its next meeting:</para></quote>
<list>   Air Services Amendment Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Combatting Child Sexual Exploitation Legislation Amendment Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Constitution Alteration (Freedom of Expression and Freedom of the Press) 2019</list>
<list>   Constitution Alteration (Water Resources) 2019</list>
<list>   Discrimination Free Schools Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Galilee Basin (Coal Prohibition) Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Great Australian Bight Environment Protection Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Human Rights (Parliamentary Scrutiny) Amendment (Australian Freedoms) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Human Services Amendment (Photographic Identification and Fraud Prevention) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Intellectual Property Laws Amendment (Productivity Commission Response Part 2 and Other Measures) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Landholders' Right to Refuse (Gas and Coal) Bill 2015</list>
<list>   Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Amendment (Single Treatment Pathway) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   National Disability Insurance Scheme Amendment (Streamlined Governance) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   National Integrity Commission Bill 2018 (No. 2)</list>
<list>   National Sports Tribunal Bill 2019</list>
<quote><para class="block">   National Sports Tribunal (Consequential Amendments and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<list>   Nuclear Fuel Cycle (Facilitation) Bill 2017</list>
<list>   Offshore Petroleum and Greenhouse Gas Storage Amendment (Miscellaneous Amendments) Bill 2019</list>
<quote><para class="block">   Offshore Petroleum and Greenhouse Gas Storage (Regulatory Levies) Amendment Bill 2019</para></quote>
<list>   Plebiscite (Future Migration Level) Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Regional Forest Agreements Legislation (Repeal) Bill 2017</list>
<list>   Royal Commissions Amendment (Private Sessions) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Cashless Welfare) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Social Services Legislation Amendment (Ending the Poverty Trap) Bill 2018</list>
<list>   Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Unsolicited Communications) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (2018 Superannuation Measures No. 1) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Treasury Laws Amendment (Consumer Data Right) Bill 2019.</list>
<quote><para class="block">5. The committee considered the following bills but was unable to reach agreement:</para></quote>
<list>   Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Amendment (Sunsetting of Special Powers Relating to Terrorism Offences) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill 2019</list>
<list>   Migration Amendment (Streamlining Visa Processing) Bill 2019</list>
<quote><para class="block">(see appendix 3, 4, 5 and 6 for statements of reasons for referrals).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Dean Smith</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chair</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">25 July 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 1</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Institute of Health and Welfare Amendment (Assisted Reproductive Treatment Statistics) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To assess operation of proposed reforms; to assess other factors that influence success rates such as selection criteria imposed by IVF clinics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">AIHW</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Fertility Society of Australia</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">IVF Directors</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Individual fertility clinics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Specialists including Dr Rob Norman and Dr Richard Henshaw</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Embryo Donation Network</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Perinatal Epidemiology and Statistics Unit and ANZARD team at UNSW</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">VARTA</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Vic Health Complaints Commissioner</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ACCC</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As determined by committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11 November 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 2</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Treasury Laws Amendment (2019 Tax Integrity and Other Measures No. 1) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To consider the detail and implementation arrangements of the measures.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Treasury, ATO</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Economics Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 September 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 3</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Amendment (Sunsetting of Special Powers Relating to Terrorism Offences) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Human rights concerns</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Human rights and legal experts and stakeholders</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">October 3-4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">October 17</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019; Counter-Terrorism</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">to ensure bill adheres to international human rights and security obligations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">United Nations, Human Rights Law Centre</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">8-9 August 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 September 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 5</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Human rights concerns – could lead to racial profiling and police state enforcement. Despite civilians not being required to carry identification, this bill will empower law enforcement officers to eject from airports, ban from flights, fine, or even imprison civilians – travelers or otherwise – if they are unable to produce identification when demanded. Offices may demand identification from civilians if he/she "suspects … that the person has committed, is committing, or intends to commit an offence [or] considers on reasonable grounds that it is necessary … to safeguard aviation security". This could lead to situations like "Operation Fortitude" a multi-agency operation in 2015 that saw the ABF, police, and transport officers using racial profiling to do random spot-checks on visas (despite there being now requirement for visa holders to be carrying those documents on their person)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">legal and human rights experts and advocates such as The Law Council of Australia, Australian Lawyers for Human Rights, Australian Human Rights Commission, and Civil Liberties Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14-16 August</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12 September 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 6</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Migration Amendment (Streamlining Visa Processing) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Human rights concerns, as it will discriminate against particular cohorts of applicants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">legal and human rights experts and advocates such as The Law Council of Australia, and the Human Rights Law Centre.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date( s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5-6 September 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14 October 2019</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the report be adopted.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add "and the following bills not be referred to committees:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   Australian Security Intelligence Organisation Amendment (Sunsetting of Special Powers Relating to Terrorism Offences) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   Migration Amendment (Streamlining Visa Processing) Bill 2019".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to inform the chamber that Labor will be supporting the government's amendments. We believe that these bills have been adequately inquired into during the last parliament, and we need to get on with the job of making Australians safe and protecting our national security. We can certainly debate the merits of these bills when they're brought before the Senate, but they should not be delayed any further.</para>
<para>I also foreshadow that I will be moving another amendment to refer one other bill. The terms of that proposed referral are circulated in the chamber.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Here we go again. The ongoing march towards a police state is alive and well in this place. Again, for legislation, including some that we're currently debating—the temporary exclusion order regime—which sets up Minister Dutton or any future Minister for Home Affairs as judge and jury, and which undermines the rule of law in this country, the Senate is being prevented by the government from conducting an inquiry into that legislation and the consequential amendment legislation which is attached to it.</para>
<para>Again, with the sunsetting of powers legislation, I want to place on the record that what that legislation does is to extend a previously agreed-to sunsetting of the power of the government to throw someone in the slammer for up to a week without charging them. What the government are doing here is absolutely outrageous. They're preventing the Senate from doing its job, they're preventing transparency and they're jamming through draconian legislation that marches us yet further down the road to a police state, yet further down the road to a surveillance state and yet further down the road to an authoritarian state.</para>
<para>When will you people ever be happy? When you pass laws saying we can't get out of the bed in the morning because we might slip over? Seriously, this is a debate about the balance between freedoms and liberties on one hand and making our community safer on the other hand, and you don't want to let the Senate have that debate properly. You just want to jam this stuff through because it suits your short-term political agenda to do so. Well, as I said yesterday, the Australian Greens are not going to lie down on this stuff, because someone has to come in here and fight for freedoms and liberties as so many Australian Defence Force personnel, including family members of mine, have done for so many decades in this country. Tragically, many of them, including at least one of my immediate family, have died to defend these freedoms and liberties that you come in here and give away and prevent the Senate from scrutinising adequately.</para>
<para>I'm going to use the f-word again: you're a bunch of fascists. You're a bunch of fascists in this place. You torture innocent people in offshore prisons. That's been going on for six years. You trample over the fundamental rights and freedoms of Australians. You're turning this country into a police state. I'm warning you that the social contract between the people and the parliament is becoming ever more strained, and it's because you are removing rights without adequate scrutiny. It's because you won't take strong action on the climate emergency. It's because of massive wealth and wage inequality in this country. If you look at the collapse of civilisations throughout human history, there are two common factors: environmental degradation and massive wealth inequality. Well, hello! Welcome to the 21st century! You ignore the diminishing of the social contract that underpins law and order in this country at your peril. Ignore it at your peril. Civil disobedience will now rise and continue to rise. While you guys are all rich and wealthy enough to avoid the personal consequences of it, there are many Australians who are not so lucky.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Duniam be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:55]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>49</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>11</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the amendment circulated in my name in the chamber:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add: "but, in respect of the National Disability Insurance Scheme Amendment (Streamlined Governance) Bill 2019, contingent upon introduction in the Senate, the bill be referred immediately to the Community Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 6 September 2019."</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Original question, as amended, agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PARLIAMENTARY OFFICE HOLDERS</title>
        <page.no>27</page.no>
        <type>PARLIAMENTARY OFFICE HOLDERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Temporary Chairs of Committees</title>
          <page.no>27</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to standing order 12, I lay on the table a warrant nominating Senator Bilyk as an additional Temporary Chair of Committees when the Deputy President and Chair of Committees is absent.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>27</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>27</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following general business orders of the day be considered on Monday, 29 July 2019 at the time for private senators' bills:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No. 4 Ministers of State (Checks for Security Purposes) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No. 26 Plebiscite (Future Migration Level) Bill 2018</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">No. 25 Human Services Amendment (Photographic Identification and Fraud Prevention) Bill 2019.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>28</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>28</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that the question for the postponement of business of the Senate notice of motion No. 2 be put to a vote.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a statement of up to 10 minutes.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the Senate. Well, isn't this fantastic? Let's be clear what is occurring. This is a motion to refer the allegations against Mr Taylor and Mr Frydenberg to a committee for investigation into actions which are corrupt, because it is corrupt to have a minister approach his cabinet colleague in relation to his own private interests, for him to get special treatment—whatever people think about the legislative framework—in relation to an investigation into him, which is not offered to any other landholder—not offered to anybody else—but which he gets because he picks up the phone to his mate. This deserves to be investigated, and the government are seeking to prevent a postponement of this motion because they want to vote it down. Well, can I be very clear—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong, I have Senator Abetz on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Abetz</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If I heard correctly, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate alleged that a minister in the other place had engaged in corrupt behaviour—not alleged corrupt behaviour but corrupt behaviour—and, in those circumstances, I ask that it be withdrawn.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order, Senator Wong?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am surprised—and it says something about the other side—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I want to rule on the point of order. Senator Wong, are you speaking to the point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order—that it took the government so long to make that point of order. It says something, but I am happy to withdraw.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay. So it's withdrawn.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But I do say this: I think the Australian people, looking at a cabinet minister picking up his phone to his mate and saying, 'I've got a problem with some environmental legislation; can we make sure we have a meeting about it?' and sitting in the meeting with the compliance officer from the department about a matter that affects the value of his property—well, not every Australian landholder gets that, do they? Not every Australian landholder gets that. They might want me to withdraw the word 'corrupt', but I reckon I know what people out there would say. I reckon I know what people out there would say. And the government want to shut it down. They want to shut it down—</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What's the interjection? You reckon it's okay, do you? You reckon it's okay? You reckon cabinet ministers should be allowed to ring up their mates and say, 'I've got a problem with one of my properties; can we fix it up, please, mate?'—because that's what's happened here. It is indefensible. It is a cover-up that the government is engaging in. And shame on any crossbenchers who are proposing to vote with the government to prevent an investigation into this. I understand that Centre Alliance, for example, don't want to support this. They want to support an ICAC, but they don't want to support this—transparency and accountability.</para>
<para>This is a protection racket for Mr Taylor—a protection racket. He has not disclosed his interests. He has failed to comply with the ministerial standards and he has engaged in behaviour that those opposite know is inappropriate. They won't allow me to say the word 'corrupt', but they know this is not kosher. I cannot imagine, as much as I might have my disagreements with Senator Cormann, that he'd pick up the phone and say: 'Mate, there's a problem with my property because of this legislation. Can we just have a chat with the department about it?' Would Senator Ruston do that, up in the Riverland? 'Oh, I've got a problem with this water licence. Can we just have a chat about that?'</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong is misleading the Senate. Minister Taylor has made very clear on several occasions that he did not do anything of the sort.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann, with respect, you know that is not a point of order. Senator Wong has been granted leave to make a statement for up to 10 minutes.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is exactly the point, Senator. If you think the minister's got nothing to hide, why won't you allow the inquiry to demonstrate that? If you reckon there's nothing to hide, why are you working so hard to make sure he doesn't have to answer questions and that departmental officers don't have to answer questions?</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Cormann interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann—he claims this is politics. When have you ever asked a cabinet mate to have a meeting with a department because there's a problem that related to one of your properties? Tell us when you did that.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong is now directly asking me questions, which is, of course, disorderly. Nevertheless, I say again, Senator Wong is misleading the Senate. Minister Taylor did not do anything of the sort and her assertion is not based—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann, please resume your seat. Senator Wong should direct her comments to the chair. Senator Cormann, that's not a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Mr President. Well I invite you to tell me which other cabinet minister rings up one of their cabinet mates and says, 'You know this regulation you've got, well it's causing me a problem in relation to one of my properties. Can we please have a meeting with the department and also the compliance officer who might be engaged in the investigation and make sure it's all fixed up?' Who's done that? Senator Sinodinos wouldn't ever do that! Senator Ruston? She has a view about water licences. I can't imagine her ringing up and saying, 'I've got a problem with this water licence. I don't like that fact that the water prices have increased.' That's what he's done. It is extraordinary the lengths this government is going this week to protect a frankly very weak cabinet minister, but that's by the by. It's extraordinary, the lengths they've gone to make sure that the facts don't come out, that he doesn't have to answer questions. We saw in question time the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment, Senator Birmingham, very carefully saying, 'I am advised'—just a gentle side-shuffle; leave enough room. I think we all know why. It's because they're not sure he has done the right thing. They're defending him, but they're not sure he's done the right thing, because it absolutely does not pass the pub test.</para>
<para>Let's remind everybody of the facts. We know these from freedom of information documents. What they reveal is a gross misuse of public office. Following representations by Minister Taylor, Minister Frydenberg's office in his then capacity arranged a meeting between Minister Taylor, Minister Frydenberg's office and members of the Department of the Environment and Energy to discuss a listing which affected Minister Taylor's private landholdings. Let's just do that again. Minister Taylor communicates with Minister Frydenberg's office and a meeting is arranged between Mr Taylor, Mr Frydenberg's advisers and the department in relation to Minister Taylor's private landholdings. How many other landowners got that kind of special treatment? Who can ring up the then minister for the environment and go, 'Oh, I've got a problem. Could I have a meeting with the department?' He only got that treatment because he was a cabinet minister. That's the truth. And that is what is corrupt. Whether or not he got a benefit, whether or not it made money or didn't make money, whether or not there were any financial implications is actually not the key point. I don't know. The point is that it is a misuse of public office as a cabinet minister to ask for treatment from a colleague in relation to a general policy proposition that is not available to everybody else. That is not about public interest but is about your own private interests. It is actually extraordinary that people who are generally decent, as much as I disagree with their politics, can possibly defend this behaviour.</para>
<para>Another question is the scale and level of Minister Taylor's direct interest in the matters being discussed. This goes to Jam Land Pty Ltd. I saw someone on social media talking about money for jam. Jam Land Pty Ltd was the owner of the particular company. Let's be clear: Minister Taylor has a direct interest in Jam Land. He has it via another company—I think it's called Gufee Pty Ltd—which is a one-third owner of Jam Land. There is no declaration of Jam Land on his register of interests. The government's defence of Minister Taylor is that because he declared Gufee—which is another company that owns the shares in Jam Land—then that's sufficient. The whole point of declarations—the whole point—is that they go to declaration of conflict; they go to the declaration of conflict of interest. You put your register of interest in so that you disclose potential or actual conflicts of interest. How can you disclose a potential conflict of interest if you hide the fact that you actually are, via another company, an owner in the company that has the issue in terms of the property and the environmental regulation? It's just hiding behind companies. That's the government's defence: 'Oh, he declared it because he declared the other company.' That's not a standard that the public recognise.</para>
<para>Now, it's been put to me, 'Well, he didn't make any money out of it.' That's not the test. I don't know if he did or he didn't. I assume there was some impact on the value of the property or the use of the property—all of those issues can be explored—but that's not the test. The test is what is appropriate for a cabinet minister. I again go back to this: when there's been an environmental regulation imposed that affects your property, who else gets to ring up a cabinet minister in charge of a portfolio and say, 'Can I have a meeting with the department to discuss it'? It's only Minister Taylor. He's the only one. Do we really think that's the standard we expect of ministers of the Crown?</para>
<para>I say to the Senate: if this motion is voted against today, I will give notice that I will move precisely the same motion with one change—the date that it will be required. I'll move it again, and the crossbench can vote it down again, because I actually think Australians are entitled to expect this sort of accountability from a cabinet minister. Australians are entitled to expect that this chamber demands that accountability from cabinet ministers. We all know how little regard Australians have for our profession and for the democratic process, and we all, to varying extents, have to take responsibility for that. We certainly have to take responsibility for fixing it. One of the things is: people have to be accountable. It can't be one rule for coalition cabinet ministers and another rule for everyone else.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a statement of three minutes.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong has just outlined the facts of this situation very well. This is exactly why the Greens moved for an explanation from Minister Cormann, which was given on Tuesday. It was a very unsatisfactory explanation; it simply said that Minister Taylor had disclosed that he had some interest in a company that he tried to claim was completely unrelated to another company. Long story short, this minister is trying to get out of complying with the law that everybody else has to comply with. He's doing so by virtue of being a cabinet minister, and phoning his friend—the Treasurer, who was the then environment minister—to try to get special treatment.</para>
<para>We moved for an inquiry into this gross breach of ministerial standards. We weren't going to get support for that, for reasons that I will go into soon, so the Labor Party moved for their own inquiry. We don't care whose inquiry gets up; this needs to be investigated. Sadly, what's now happened is that we see the crossbench are saying they don't want to support either inquiry. Why not? Why are Centre Alliance and One Nation running a protection racket for this government and this cabinet? What are they getting out of this? Our understanding was there was some support for perhaps one or even both of these inquiries. That's now changed, and we want to know why. There is some very serious conduct—we think it's corrupt; it's certainly a breach of the ministerial standards—that, now, the crossbench might be turning a blind eye to, presumably because this government has pressured them not to back this inquiry. We know that there were arrangements made to support the tax cuts and to perhaps investigate some gas arrangements. That's Minister Taylor's patch. What is Minister Taylor now doing? What is he threatening the crossbench—Centre Alliance and One Nation—with? What has he offered in order that they don't vote for this investigation into Minister Taylor's own potentially dodgy conduct?</para>
<para>What is our job here, as senators, and what is our job as a crossbench? The Greens want to look into this flagrant corruption. As I said, we don't mind if it's our inquiry or Labor's inquiry. We'll vote for both of them. Ours is on for a vote on Monday as well, folks, and we'll be seeking support for that. But I have not yet heard a decent reason why we shouldn't look into this issue.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bernardi, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Bernardi</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's highly inappropriate for allegations and statements about 'flagrant corruption' to be made. Senator Wong withdrew that allegation in her presentation as well. I think Senator Waters should be required to do the same.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, if you did reflect on an individual with that word, that should be withdrawn, and I'd ask you to. I couldn't hear the exact phrase.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For the sake of the debate, I'll withdraw.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Waters.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But this is exactly why we need an inquiry. With Senator Bernardi, who knows what he's going to do and where he's going to end up, but I hope that we can count on his support to look into what looks like very dodgy conduct by existing cabinet ministers. Our view is that ministers shouldn't be having a side business that makes them private profits, but our view is also that the Senate's job should enforce this ministerial standard if the Prime Minister won't. I call on the crossbench to back these inquiries.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement of two minutes.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to state to the chamber that I've been shown evidence that Minister Taylor was asked to make representation on behalf of some constituents. I disagree—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Rice interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Rice!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If someone is presented with a concern by a constituent they should be allowed to go to a minister—I do that all the time. If I get a—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Di Natale interjecting—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Hanson-Young interjecting—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Rice interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senators Di Natale, Hanson-Young and Rice, please—other senators were heard in silence. Can we let Senator Patrick be treated with the same courtesy?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If I am presented with a concern by a constituent, I do go to ministers and I do ask them to get a briefing from a department. So what has happened is not unusual. It's not unusual for things that have happened to me. So, my problem with the motion, and Senator Wong's statement, is that there's an error of fact in there, in that—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Di Natale interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Di Natale!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>in this instance I'm quite satisfied that Minister Taylor was making representation on behalf of some constituents.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement of two minutes.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is not granted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent Senator Wong moving a motion to give precedence to a motion to enable Senator Keneally a statement of two minutes.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can speak to that motion if you wish, Senator Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I defer to Senator Keneally.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann has precedence and is entitled to speak.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the motion be now put.</para></quote>
<para class="italic">Senator Cormann interjecting—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann and Senator Wong both withdraw their motions, and leave is granted to Senator Keneally for two minutes.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, government. Thank you, Mr President. I would like to ask Senator Patrick to reflect on the contribution he just made in this place, because what he has done is substitute himself as judge and jury. He has said that his judgement is superior to that of the whole Senate. It is actually the job of this Senate to make these types of determinations. Senator Patrick doesn't just get to stand up here and say he's seen a letter and, therefore, it is all okay and, 'Just trust us.' This Senate should have the opportunity to move these very serious allegations of corrupt activity by a minister of the Crown to an inquiry. This is a side of parliament that fails—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: Senator Keneally's actually making a brief statement to the wrong motion. What the government has—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a point of order. You've got to be relevant to what is before the chair, and my point is that what is before the chair is the government resisting this being dealt with—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I ask both Senator Cormann and Senator Wong to resume their seats. Once leave is granted to make a statement, the tests of relevance to a motion do not apply. Senator Keneally, having already been granted leave, has 1 minute and 14 seconds remaining.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What we have is an allegation of corrupt conduct by a minister of the Crown in a government that is refusing to bring in a federal national integrity commission, in a government that sometimes sits on the other side and yells out allegations about us over here but goes as weak as water when it comes to putting evidence before an inquiry that everything is tickety-boo over there. Well, if everything is tickety-boo over there, we wouldn't be hearing the weasel words of 'I am advised'. We would be hearing a robust defence.</para>
<para>As for Senator Patrick, who has substituted his judgement—he has seen a letter. Well, who's the letter from? Is it from somebody related to Minister Taylor? Is it from somebody—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can we all see it?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can we all see it? Here's a crazy idea, Senator Patrick: if we had an inquiry, these things could be put out in an evidentiary way and the inquiry could come to a considered position. These are serious allegations. They should not be dealt with in such a facile manner by Senator Patrick. They should go before an inquiry. It is unbelievable that the crossbench are going to play a protection racket—that Centre Alliance are going to play a protection racket—for this government.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There being no further people seeking leave, I will put the motion. Senator Wong?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just brief advice to the Senate: if this motion is lost, I will lodge, immediately, another motion for Monday.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that business of the Senate notice of motion No. 2 in the name of Senator Wong be postponed.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:26]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>35</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Cormann, M</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>5</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Payne, M</name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice that, on the next day of sitting, I will move for an order for production of documents in relation to Minister Taylor and any evidence or correspondence from constituents regarding the matter we've just discussed, and any communication with Senator Patrick in this matter.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I assume there are no other requests to put matters of postponements to a vote? There being none, I call Senator Duniam.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>33</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the order of general business for consideration today be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a general business notice of motion circulated by the Opposition relating to the economy; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) orders of the day relating to documents.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>33</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>China: Human Rights</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that general business notice of motion No. 50, standing in my name for today, relating to arbitrary detention in China, be taken as a formal motion.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is there any objection to this motion being taken as formal?</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There is.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In lieu of suspending standing orders, I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've got to say it's shocking that the government would refuse to consider this motion. This motion was deliberately framed in a way that uses the government's own language. This reflects what the government has been saying about the situation in China. I've spoken already in this chamber this week about the awful human rights abuses being committed by the Chinese government against the Uygurs and other Turkish Muslims, including some who call Australia home. I'll say it again: over one million people are being arbitrarily detained, some of them subjected to torture, with a terrifying surveillance state following every move. People are denied their rights to freedom of movement, privacy and freedom of religion, and all of this is occurring while the world watches. This was an opportunity for the government to back up some of the statements it has already made public, and it squibbed it. A statement from the Senate would have sent a powerful message to China that we don't accept the cultural genocide that is going on right now.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I indicate at the outset that the opposition will continue on this occasion to observe the conventions in relation to formality, but, given the importance of this issue and the focus on this issue, I do wish to make a short statement in relation to Labor's views. As I have previously indicated on behalf of the opposition, we are deeply concerned by continuing reports of the mass detention and other violations of human rights of Uygurs and other Muslim minority groups in China. Labor supports the letter, co-signed by 22 countries, including Australia, at the Human Rights Council, calling on the Chinese government to uphold its own national laws and international obligations to respect human rights, including freedom of religion, and to refrain from arbitrary detention and restrictions on freedom of movement of Muslims in Xinjiang.</para>
<para>This week, along with my colleagues Senator Keneally and Mr Dreyfus, I met with members of the Uygur Australian community. Their situation is heartbreaking, and some of it has been in the public arena. No Australian could help but be moved by their circumstances. We have raised our concerns in a number of statements and public comments. We fully support the government in its efforts to raise the issue of Uygur Australians with their counterparts in Beijing and to secure consular access for any Australian citizens detained.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian government is deeply concerned about the human rights situation in Xinjiang. We urge China to cease the arbitrary detention of Uygurs and other Muslim groups in Xinjiang. We will continue to raise our concerns directly with the Chinese government and through the UN Human Rights Council and we would welcome the opportunity to assess the facts of the situation in Xinjiang ourselves. We will continue to advocate for Australian citizens with the Chinese authorities.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>34</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Affairs References Committee</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>34</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to amend business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1, standing in my name and the name of Senator Dodson for today, proposing a reference to the Community Affairs References Committee relating to income support payments.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator Dodson, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Community Affairs References Committee for inquiry and report by 27 March 2020:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The adequacy of Newstart and related payments and alternative mechanisms to determine the level of income support payments in Australia, with specific reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) consideration of what constitutes an acceptable standard of living in Australia, including the cost of safe and secure housing;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the labour market, unemployment and under-employment in Australia, including the structural causes of long term unemployment and long term reliance on Newstart;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the changing nature of work and insecure work in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the appropriateness of current arrangements for supporting those experiencing insecure employment, inconsistent employment and precarious hours in the workforce;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the current approach to setting income support payments in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the impact of the current approach to setting income support payments on older unemployed workers, families, single parents, people with disability, jobseekers, students, First Nations peoples, people from culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds, people living in regional and remote areas, and any others affected by the process;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) the impact of geography, age and other characteristics on the number of people receiving payments, long term unemployment and poverty;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the adequacy of income support payments in Australia and whether they allow people to maintain an acceptable standard of living in line with community expectations and fulfil job search activities (where relevant) and secure employment and training;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the economic cost of long-term unemployment, underemployment, poverty, inequality and inadequate income support payments;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) the economic benefits – including job creation, locally and nationally – of increasing and improving income support payments and supports, and decreasing poverty and inequality;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(k) the relationship between income support payment levels, minimum wages</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and wage stagnation in Australia and other comparable economies;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(l) the interactions with other payments and services, including the loss of</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">any increased payments through higher rents and costs;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(m) the cost and fiscal sustainability of any changes;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(n) the relative merits of alternative investments in health, education,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">housing and other programs to improve outcomes;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(o) other countries' approaches to setting income support payments, minimum</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">wages and awards;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(p) other bodies that set payments, minimum wages and awards in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(q) the role of independent and expert decision–making in setting payments;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(r) any other related matters.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that business of the Senate matter No. 1 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:39]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>5</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                  <name>Cash, M</name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>36</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Intellectual Property Laws Amendment (Productivity Commission Response Part 2 and Other Measures) Bill 2019, Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019, National Disability Insurance Scheme Amendment (Streamlined Governance) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" style="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core">
            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="s1216">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Intellectual Property Laws Amendment (Productivity Commission Response Part 2 and Other Measures) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a type="Bill" href="s1219">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="s1218">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">National Disability Insurance Scheme Amendment (Streamlined Governance) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>36</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I indicate to the Senate that these bills are being introduced together. After debate on the motion for the second reading has been adjourned, I will be moving a motion to have the bills listed separately on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bills be introduced: A Bill for an Act to A Bill for an Act to amend legislation relating to intellectual property, and for related purposes; A Bill for an Act to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Act 2011</inline>, and for related purposes; and A Bill for an Act to amend the <inline font-style="italic">National Disability Insurance Scheme Act 2013</inline>, and for related purposes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bills and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>36</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table the explanatory memoranda relating to the bills and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY LAWS AMENDMENT (PRODUCTIVITY COMMISSION RESPONSE PART 2 AND OTHER MEASURES) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is the second piece of legislation that delivers on the Morrison Government's commitment to review and reform our intellectual property system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The intellectual property system — or IP system — is an important part of the economy. It encourages the development of new technologies, products and markets. In 2016 the Productivity Commission undertook a comprehensive review of Australia's IP system, including copyright, trade marks, patents, designs and plant breeder's rights. We asked the Commission to make recommendations to ensure that the IP system continues to provide incentives for innovation and investment. The IP system should do so without unreasonably impeding competition and access to goods and services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government responded to the Commission's recommendations on 25 August 2017, and within a year the first tranche of reforms received Royal Assent. These changes were supported by the opposition, and updated the trade mark and the plant breeder's rights systems.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This second tranche of reforms updates the patent system. The Productivity Commission stated that its proposed reforms are intended to rebalance the patent system to take more account of the benefits to the broader community and ensure that all Australians benefit from the system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms have been complex to develop, so the government has taken additional time to consult extensively, giving stakeholders several opportunities to provide feedback and express their views. The government has listened and is confident that the amendments strike the right balance between the needs of inventors, users of technology and the general public.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule one to this Bill will amend the Patents Act. It gives effect to the recommendations made by the Commission, by introducing a statement of the objectives of the Patents Act and phasing out Australia's second-tier patent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part one introduces an objects clause into the Patents Act. The objects clause provides a general statement of principle about the purpose of the Act. This will make it clear what Australians want from their patent system, specifically a system that promotes economic wellbeing through technological innovation and the transfer and dissemination of technology. This will ensure that the patent system remains adaptable and fit-for-purpose as new technologies are developed in the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part two begins the phasing out of the innovation patent system. This second-tier patent was intended to incentivise small to medium-sized Australian businesses to invest in research when it was introduced in 2001.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, in the 18 years since then, it has become clear that the second-tier patent has been more harmful than helpful for SMEs. There is widespread agreement among stakeholders that the system is not fit-for-purpose. Some people argue that the second-tier patent should be reformed, but there is no agreement on a workable alternative.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Both the Productivity Commission and the former Advisory Council on IP recommended that the innovation patent system be abolished. Both found there is no evidence that the second-tier patent stimulates innovation or research in Australia. What it does do, according to both bodies, is lead to uncertainty, confusion and a higher regulatory burden, particularly for our Australian SMEs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will amend the Patents Act to prevent the filing of new applications for innovation patents. The amendments ensure that existing rights, filed before commencement, are maintained and protected, ensuring a balanced phasing out.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedules two, three and four implement recommendations made by the Commission in its 2013 report into the compulsory licensing of patents. These changes will improve the balance between the rights of IP owners and the interests of the public, bringing greater clarity and certainty to the legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule two improves the transparency and accountability for Crown use of patented technology. There is some uncertainty about when Crown use can be invoked at the present, and this Bill makes it clear that while it is rarely used, it can be invoked when any Australian Federal, State or Territory government has the primary responsibility for providing or funding a service. This ensures that Crown use can cover the full range of services that the public expects our Government to provide.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule two also protects the rights of patent holders, by improving accountability for Crown use as well as providing more guidance for determining the remuneration to be paid to the patent owner. Government agencies will be required to seek to negotiate with the patent owner and to obtain the authorisation of the relevant Minister before invoking Crown use. At the Commonwealth level, the relevant Minister is the Minister responsible for administering the Patents Act, and at the State and Territory level, it is the Attorney-General. This will ensure that Crown use is only used in appropriate circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule three will make the same amendments to the Crown use provisions in the Designs Act. Crown use will then operate in the same way for both patents and designs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule four improves the clarity and certainty for compulsory licensing of patents. It requires the courts to consider whether it is in the public interest to grant a compulsory licence. There was concern that the previous test had the potential to protect the interests of a particular industry, at a net cost to the broader community. The new test will ensure that compulsory licences are only granted when there will be an overall net benefit to the Australian community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule four will also clarify the process for compulsory licensing of inventions that build and improve on a previous patent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The remaining schedules to the Bill make minor technical amendments that will streamline procedures and improve the efficiency of the IP system, ensuring the system is fit for purpose and keeps up with today's accelerated pace of technological change.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am very pleased to introduce this Bill, which builds on a broad consultation and enhances Australia's IP system, supporting innovation, creativity and business growth in this country.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">TERTIARY EDUCATION QUALITY AND STANDARDS AGENCY AMENDMENT BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019 amends the <inline font-style="italic">Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Act 2011 </inline>(TEQSA Act) to give effect to the Government's decision to implement recommendations arising from the <inline font-style="italic">Review of the impact of the TEQSA Act on the higher education sector.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This review was conducted in line with section 203 of the TEQSA Act, which required that the Minister, before 1 January 2016, cause a review to be started of the impact on the higher education sector of the TEQSA Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In December 2015, terms of reference for the review were determined, with Deloitte Access Economics engaged to undertake the review between July 2016 and March 2017. The review was a substantial body of work: 36 written submissions were received, 33 stakeholders were interviewed, and the TEQSA Act was extensively analysed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Overall, the review was positive about the establishment of TEQSA as the national regulator in 2012, noting that the TEQSA Act is broadly operating effectively and as intended.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The review noted that the higher education sector's views regarding the regulatory system established by the Act, and TEQSA as the regulator, are positive.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The sector sees in TEQSA a regulator that is seeking to reduce the burden imposed by its activities, tailoring its requirements to meet individual features of providers and engaging more fully with the sector. The review therefore did not recommend changes that would significantly alter the regulatory framework or the role of TEQSA as the independent national higher education regulator.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The recommendations made by the review are largely technical in nature. They are designed to place TEQSA and the regulatory and quality assurance system established by the act on a stronger footing. This Bill gives effect to the review recommendations that require amendments to the TEQSA Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The measures contained in this Bill will improve the already effective and efficient higher education regulatory system, enabling the sector to continue its focus on delivering the highest quality teaching, learning and research, maximising the quality of educational outcomes for students and protecting Australia's international higher education reputation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill simplifies the legislative framing of the Higher Education Standards Framework by removing references from the TEQSA Act to specific categories of non-threshold standards that have never been made and are not needed. The capacity to make additional standards will be retained, however, if the need ever arises.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill requires that TEQSA inform the minister and the Higher Education</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Standards Panel before it undertakes quality assessment under section 60 of the TEQSA Act that engages the majority of higher education providers. This will ensure that the resource implications of any such activity and the regulatory burden it would create for providers are appropriately considered before undertaking such an assessment. This amendment will remove the need for the current tougher restriction placed on such assessments by <inline font-style="italic">Ministerial Direction No. 2 of 2013, </inline>which the Government will repeal once the TEQSA Amendment Act commences.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are amendments made in relation to the Higher Education Standards Panel. The Bill will expand the skill set that the minister must ensure is encompassed by panel members so that, collectively, the panel has contemporary experience in the provision of higher education by both university and non-university providers. This amendment is important for the panel's oversight and advisory roles, ensuring its advice is balanced and reflects a collective understanding of issues relevant to different provider types.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also expands the functions of the panel to more appropriately reflect its role to provide oversight of TEQSA's strategic and operational planning and approaches to deregulation, which were functions of the former TEQSA Advisory Council.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A new provision will allow TEQSA to disclose higher education information about a regulated entity to a person who has lodged a complaint where TEQSA is satisfied that the information to be disclosed relates to the subject matter of the complaint. Currently TEQSA can publish such information but cannot disclose the information to individual complainant students. This amendment will improve TEQSA's capacity to respond appropriately to complainants, facilitating better engagement between TEQSA and students of higher education providers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Bill provides for a number of technical amendments, mainly suggested by TEQSA during the review, including minor adjustments to the capacity to disclose both higher education and personal information to the Department of Education and the Minister, to facilitate the disclosure of information for research purposes with appropriate safeguards and to clarify quorum provisions for meetings of the TEQSA commissioners.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">NATIONAL DISABILITY INSURANCE SCHEME AMENDMENT (STREAMLINED GOVERNANCE) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">National Disability Insurance Scheme Act 2013 </inline>to introduce streamlined governance arrangements that will simplify rule-making and decision-making under the NDIS Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill makes important provisions that will give the Commonwealth Minister responsible for the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS) increased certainty about timing of decisions under the Act requiring state and territory agreement, including appointments and terminations to the Board of the National Disability Insurance Agency (NDIA) and the NDIS Independent Advisory Council, and the making or amending of some NDIS Rules. The Bill also ensures the states and territories will continue to have an essential and strong role in the stewardship of the Scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These administrative amendments will ensure the governance arrangements that underpin the NDIS are efficient and effective, building on the recommendations from an independent review of the Act in 2015, the Productivity Commission inquiry into NDIS costs in 2017 and intergovernmental agreements supported by the Council of Australian Governments (COAG).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The NDIS is one of the largest social and economic policy reforms in Australia's history.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Difficulties with the current governance arrangements have been consistently The Scheme is continuing to grow at a rapid pace as it rolls out across the country. Over 300,000 Australians are currently receiving support through the NDIS and around 100,000 of these people are receiving support for the very first time. The vision of the NDIS, to enable every Australian with a significant and permanent disability to access the reasonable and necessary support they need to participate fully in their communities, is progressively being realised.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since 1 July 2019, the NDIS has been available across the continent. The Scheme will continue to grow at a rapid pace over the next few years — with around 500,000 participants estimated to benefit from the NDIS over the next five years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This government has been fully committed to the NDIS from day one. We are bringing forward this Bill to establish streamlined governance arrangements to ensure the governance structure that underpins the NDIS is effective, efficient and adaptive.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The NDIS is a significantly complex reform, with governance shared between the Commonwealth and state and territory governments. The current NDIS governance structure includes a legislative framework, the NDIA Board, the NDIS Independent Advisory Council and the COAG Disability Reform Council (DRC). Each body plays an important role in assuring that the NDIS remains true to its objectives.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under current legislative and governance settings, the states and territories have significant roles and responsibilities in NDIS policy and funding arrangements. Setting and amending NDIS Rules, the giving of directions to the CEO and NDIA Board as well as making appointments and terminations, generally requires unanimous agreement from all jurisdictions. This has resulted in a governance structure that is complex, with decision-making processes being more time-consuming and less efficient than required for such a significant reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">identified during the NDIS trial and transition periods. Past experience of the requirement to obtain unanimous agreement from all states and territories has meant NDIS Rules, or amendment to Rules, which have agreement at the officials' level, have taken up to ten months to be formally agreed before they could be registered.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Unnecessary delays in decision-making was recognised as a critical issue by the Productivity Commission in its 2017 Review of NDIS Costs. In the PC's final report, handed down in October 2017, while acknowledging the complexity of shared governance arrangements and the valuable knowledge and expertise of all governments for designing and refining the Scheme, the PC concluded that <inline font-style="italic">­</inline><inline font-style="italic">"</inline><inline font-style="italic">such timeframes for decision making could pose significant operational difficulties for the NDIA </inline><inline font-style="italic">"</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The shared governance arrangement requiring unanimous agreement from states and territories to progress a large range of critical issues is indeed cumbersome and complicated. This reduces the Commonwealth's ability to respond rapidly and flexibly to emerging issues.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This government, along with states and territories, has therefore reached the view that better arrangements are required as the NDIS approaches full scheme. Changes will improve the effectiveness of governance arrangements to provide an agile and responsive legislative environment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is good news for Australians living with significant and permanent disability, their families and carers who are set to benefit from the NDIS. These changes will simplify what is a complicated and inefficient system of decision-making.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes proposed by this government include introducing a 28 day consultation process with state and territory disability ministers on matters under the NDIS Act that require agreement. If they do not respond after 28 days, they will be taken to have agreed. All state and territory disability ministers have been consulted and have been voluntarily following the 28 day convention since November 2017. Formalising this commitment in law provides the right incentives for all governments to manage the NDIS efficiently.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes proposed by this government also establish arrangements for the Commonwealth Minister to be able to appoint members to the NDIA Board based on majority agreement of the states and territories, instead of under the current requirement for unanimous agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The NDIA Board is responsible for overseeing the implementation of the NDIS and its long-term sustainability. The Board manages the financial and delivery risk of the scheme, including maintaining an actuarial and insurance approach to decision making. The Board develops the NDIA's business strategies, manages risks to the organisation and the NDIS, and through its Chief Executive Officer, handles the day-to-day management of the NDIA.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The NDIA Board is a national board, not a representative board. Members are appointed to the Board if they have the right skills and expertise to carefully mange the significant scale, cost and potential risk in delivering the NDIS ­without regard to where they live.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Allowing the Minister to appoint Board members based on majority agreement will ensure that the best and majority supported candidates are appointed in instances where there is not unanimous agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes proposed by this government also establish arrangements for the Commonwealth Minister to be able to appoint members to the NDIS Independent Advisory Council, based on consultation with states and territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The function of the Advisory Council is to provide the Board with independent advice, which the Board must consider when performing its duties, having regard to the role of families, carers and other significant persons in the lives of people with disability.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And finally, the changes proposed by this government also establish new arrangements for consultation with states and territories relating to any proposed changes to some NDIS rules — namely, those Rules that relate to the payment of NDIS amounts and the NDIA CEO's power to disclose information. These are consequential amendments that will have no impact on the Scheme's purpose or design, people's access to the NDIS, the determination of participant's reasonable and necessary supports, or the content of their plans.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The NDIS, and its beneficiaries, deserve the best and most efficient governance arrangements possible. The changes proposed in this Bill will help us deliver this world-leading reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Morrison Government is committed to working with states and territories and the NDIA to deliver a fully funded, high quality NDIS. This bill represents a significant step forward, cutting red tape, and ensuring governance arrangements for the NDIS enable responsive delivery and agile decision-making as we move into full Scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend this Bill to the Senate.</para></quote>
<para>Ordered that further consideration of the second reading of these bills be adjourned to the first sitting day of the next period of sittings, in accordance with standing order 111(6).</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Great Australian Bight Environment Protection Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" style="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1215">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Great Australian Bight Environment Protection Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>40</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to protect the Great Australian Bight, and for related purposes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>40</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum and I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">GREAT AUSTRALIAN BIGHT ENVIRONMENT PROTECTION BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When I first introduced a bill to protect the Great Australian Bight back in 2016, the company that wanted to drill for oil in the Great Australian Bight was BP. Then it was Chevron. Now it is the Norwegian company Equinor, formerly known as Statoil.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Great Australian Bight is one of the world's great wilderness areas. It is home to a huge array of marine and bird life, marine plants and invertebrates. Eighty-five percent of species found in the Bight are endemic, found only in the Bight. It is an essential calving sanctuary for southern right whales, and a feeding ground for threatened sea lions, sharks, tuna and migratory sperm whales.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In May the UN released its latest biodiversity report. This warned that a million species face the threat of extinction. The official modelling from Big Oil companies who want to drill in the Bight indicate that a spill would impact many matters of national environmental significance. This would include up to 177 marine species, 47 species classified as vulnerable, endangered and critically endangered, and 50 coastal wetlands. Thirty-eight marine reserves would be covered in sludge, resulting in the mortality of hundreds of thousands of seabirds and thousands of marine animals, including endangered southern right whales, blue whales, killer whales, dolphins, and endemic and endangered Australian sea lions. Hundreds of sea turtles would be dead. Hundreds—potentially thousands—of kilometres of shoreline would be covered in oil, causing extreme harm to both the birds that live on the coast and those that visit nearby.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is disastrous in itself, but it would have knock-on effects. The Bight plays host to over ten thousand fishing and tourism jobs. These industries would be decimated and may never recover. That is why, all along the coast, local councils have voted against drilling in the Bight. We know traditional owners are also opposed, horrified that their special place is under threat. And they are backed by more than two-thirds of South Australians who oppose drilling in the Great Australian Bight.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But this is not just a South Australian problem; the same spill modelling shows oil could stretch from Port Macquarie in New South Wales to Albany, Western Australia. And, in a time of climate breakdown, what happens in the Bight affects us all.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If we are to keep temperature rise to two degrees—and we've been told by scientists that we have to do more than that—the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) report says we have to phase out fossil fuels. We cannot keep playing games with our environment and the climate. It is time to get serious about what needs to be done. We have to reduce our carbon emissions, and we have to stop the further extraction of fossil fuels that are only going to make climate change worse and more dangerous. If we are to do what the scientists say is required—keeping temperature rise to 1.5 degrees or below—there is absolutely no way we can allow the extraction of fossil fuels from the Great Australian Bight. At the volumes being proposed, we would never arrest climate change: not here in Australia and not around the rest of the world. Just a fraction of the estimated oil reserves in the Great Australian Bight would amount to three gigatonnes of CO2. This is almost equivalent to one-third of our entire carbon budget between now and 2050.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Many people—many in government—will tell you that Australia is a small player, and that we would be exporting that oil so it wouldn't affect our totals. To them I say: we are already seeing the effects of climate change and we are the last generation of policymakers and decision-makers who can do anything about it. It is up to us to make the hard decisions to reduce dangerous carbon pollution. And the more we twiddle our thumbs, and the more we deny this, the worse the problem becomes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The good people in the Bight Alliance and hardworking Australians from all walks of life have turned away BP and Chevron and are, right this moment, working to send Equinor packing. But this shouldn't be a one by one approach. The people have spoken. They do not want Big Oil, or any oil, in the Great Australian Bight. It is time for us to do our job and find a permanent way to protect this precious, important ecosystem and the climate we all depend on.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill does just that. During the election we saw the two major parties sit up and take notice of the Fight for the Bight. They promised 'reviews.' The time for reviews has passed; today I offer this Bill as a way to listen to the Australian people, do what is right and protect the Great Australian Bight and the future of us all.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>41</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator Brown, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) that Mr John Ryan AM, and Ms Barbara Bennett PSM, are recognised for their long and distinguished public service careers,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) that however, as key decision makers of public service institutions which will be the subject of investigation and examination during the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability, they have significant and unmanageable conflicts of interest which are highly likely to jeopardise the integrity of the Royal Commission,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) that over 60 disability organisations have called for the resignation and removal of these two individuals as commissioners for the Royal Commission,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) that these organisations have created a set of six criteria to guide the government in the appointment of replacement commissioners,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (v) the 1500 individuals who have signed a petition calling for both Mr Ryan and Ms Bennett to step down—many individuals and advocates from the disability community, including former People with Disability Australia President, Mr Craig Wallace, have said they will not give evidence to the Royal Commission should these individuals remain, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (vi) that it is essential that disabled people, their families, and their organisations have confidence in the processes and recommendations of the Royal Commission; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government to immediately remove Mr Ryan and Ms Bennett as Commissioners, and replace them with individuals who meet the positive criteria set out by the disability community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That a message be sent to the House of Representatives seeking its concurrence in this resolution.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>John Ryan AM and Barbara Bennett PSM are recognised for their long and distinguished Public Service careers. The government does not accept the allegation that they have an unmanageable conflict of interest. Media reports implying fault, and therefore conflict of interest, published in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> as facts, not as opinion, are without truth or foundation.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Over 60 organisations and 1,500 individuals who have signed a petition are calling for the government to address the significant perceived conflict of interest that commissioners Barbara Bennett and John Ryan hold in relation to their appointments as commissioners to the disability royal commission. People with a disability, their organisations and supporters have called for these two commissioners to step down and for stronger provision for all commissioners about real, perceived and potential conflicts of interest. Labor is very concerned that many individuals and advocates from the disability community have said they will not participate or give evidence if these royal commissioners remain. It is essential that people with a disability, their families and carers and their organisations have confidence in the royal commission. It's time for the government to act.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Centre Alliance makes no disparaging remarks against the people that are involved in this, but there is a principle called apprehended bias. You'll be familiar with it in the courts. If there is a perceived conflict of interest, judges will normally recuse themselves, not because there is bias but because there's an apprehension of bias, and an innocent bystander who walks past the court must always be fully confident as to the impartiality. That's the issue here. So we will be supporting the motion, but we make no disparaging remarks against the highly qualified and esteemed people that have been named in the motion.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This motion is not making any particular commentary on the qualification of the appointed commissioners to do the jobs they were in. This motion relates to their ability to do the jobs they have been appointed to, and the reality is that these two individuals are disqualified based on the conflict of interest that arises from their immediate past employment as senior bureaucrats within the very systems and processes that this commission will investigate. They do not have the confidence of the disability community, they will shortly no longer enjoy the confidence of this Senate, and the government must immediately move to replace these commissioners with folks the disability community can trust.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Jacqui Lambie Network is absolutely horrified at this. This is no different to having a royal commission into veterans affairs and putting past secretaries on a panel like that. That would be absolutely horrifying. I cannot believe that you would actually do this in the first place. It's like putting someone that's been abused back in front of their abuser, and it's absolutely horrifying that it's been done in the first place.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Steele-John be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:52]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>34</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>30</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>6</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Payne, MA</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
                <name>Cormann, </name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>43</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019, Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" style="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core">
            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6361">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="r6362">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>43</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I'm going to ask the same question I did on numerous occasions before we broke. I'm just wondering if you've had an attempt to regroup and have a bit of a think about it and maybe consult with your advisers. The question is: in regard to judicial reviews of a decision made by the minister to issue a temporary exclusion order, are those judicial reviews able to be requested on the basis of the merits of the minister's decision?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In response, Senator McKim, I reiterate that a decision to make a TEO is subject to an administrative review by an independent reviewing authority. Secondly, it is subject to judicial review, which is not a review of its merits but of its legality. I was very clear that the decision is not subject to merits review. My exact answer was, and I'll reconfirm what I said then: I can confirm that it is subject to administrative review before it comes into force and, secondly, that it is subject to judicial review. I clarified this further earlier by stating that allowing merits review would lengthen the decision-making process and allow a person to return to Australia without adequate notice or control of their return. Again, I believe I was very clear that the decision is not subject to merits review.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to explore that a little bit more. It's pretty clear that the review authority, which is making an administrative review, doesn't review on the merits—I understand that to be what you said. Normally an administrative review can be appealed to a court, but, in doing so, it's normally explicitly stated in the acts that allow the referral that it is to be on a point of law only. This bill doesn't state that, so I'm wondering, when we get to the judicial stage, whether or not you can appeal on the basis of an error of law and also appeal on the basis of an error of fact?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, I really don't have anything further to add because I've answered your question, and, I believe, the answer to Senator McKim made those points very clear.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This bill constrains the Federal Court from reviewing an issue on the basis of an error of fact?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've just reconfirmed with the relevant officials, who advise me that it does not constrain.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There has been a little bit of confusion. I just want to make sure I fully understand what you've said—that, when a TEO decision is made, it gets immediately referred to a review authority, who makes a decision on the law only, but, when we get to a judicial review, you can have that review on both a point of law and an error of fact? I just want to make sure that's the summary of the situation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've just reconfirmed with officials that it is on a matter of law.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For which review—the administrative review, or the judicial review? You've said different things here.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I haven't; I've been very consistent. As I've reconfirmed, it's for both—on a matter of law.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A few minutes ago, Minister, you said that this bill does not constrain a court from reviewing a decision of the minister on a point of law or a point of fact. I just want to clarify: you're walking back from that? I'm not being hostile; I just want to get an understanding.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, we are now going around the roundabout. I think I have been very clear, both to you and to Senator McKim: judicial review includes a review based on an error of law. This is consistent with the Constitution, and also the Judiciary Act. There are no changes to that. In fact, these provisions are consistent with other national security legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to put this to you, and I mentioned this in my second reading speech. What about a circumstance where a person has gone to a function somewhere in Jordan and has, in some way, been photographed with someone who really is a bad egg and that link is then made up and provided to the minister? So the minister makes the decision—in good faith—on the basis of some intelligence that says there is an association, and that matter then gets referred to the review authority. We understand from the bill that at that point there is no representation from the person subject to the TEO. They're not in a position to explain the facts of the case, which are: 'I was there on one night. I don't know these people. I've never seen them before in my life.' Of course, that can't occur, as I understand it, at the administrative review stage by the reviewing authority.</para>
<para>What you've just said to me is that, when we get to a court, there's no way of remedying that error. That's a question of fact—that the minister has been presented with the fact that this particular person is associated with some really bad eggs. That's a question of fact. And what you're saying is that a court could never look at that. The person who's been denied procedural fairness because the act does that is not in a position to turn up to the court and say: 'Your Honour, there's a serious error of fact in this. I can show that I've spent all of my time assisting people in Jordan who are troubled. That's how I was spending my time there. I got caught out once being in a place where there were some bad eggs.' That's what you're effectively suggesting if a court can't examine an error of fact. Using that as an example, can you just confirm that is the case?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, I've gone through this. The law is very clear. You are now engaging on a very discursive path of a hypothetical, which is not appropriate for me to comment on, because it is a hypothetical.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We are talking about laws that are prospective, that will occur in the future. The only thing you can ever apply to a prospective law is a reasonable circumstance that will be hypothetical. There is no other way you can tease out how an act will be applied. So to somehow suggest that I should give you an example that is not hypothetical is quite disturbing. We have to explore the way in which this act will work in the future, and if I call out a scenario and you say, 'Senator Patrick, that would never happen,' I accept that. But I'm giving you a reasonable example in trying to understand how, in the future, this act would apply in those sorts of circumstances. I seek an answer to the question please, Minister.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Frankly, that's actually not good enough, Minister. You've received a perfectly reasonable question from Senator Patrick. I'll just draw your attention to the fact that courts do look at the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record of debates such as these to assist them with ruling on issues that come before them, because the courts try, in some circumstances, to understand the intent of the parliament in passing legislation. When legislation is drafted, not every circumstance is foreseeable or predictable. What Senator Patrick is trying to do here is his job—his job as a senator in this house of review and his job as a senator to tease out from you, Minister Reynolds, your intent in the drafting of this legislation and, ultimately, the intent of the parliament in passing this legislation. We're trying to help the courts here, and you are hindering us in that duty.</para>
<para>Senator Patrick has asked you a perfectly reasonable question about how this legislation may apply in a certain set of circumstances. You can call it 'hypothetical' all you like, but I actually don't accept that characterisation of it. The way I would describe Senator Patrick's question is that he is asking it in an attempt to inform the Senate and to inform future potential deliberations of the judiciary, and for you to simply sit there and not answer it is not only contemptuous of the Senate, it's contemptuous of our judiciary.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, thank you very much for that almost hysterical response to my response to Senator Patrick. However, all I can do is again refer you to the bill. If you'd actually read the bill, section 14(5)(a) is a clear answer to that question. If the minister took an irrelevant consideration into account, that is a factor. Read the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move items (1) to (40) on sheet 8710 together, noting that questions—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just one moment, Senator Keneally. I've been advised to seek confirmation that you want to move (1) to (22), (24) to (38) and (40) by leave together. There are gaps in it—that's all.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There are gaps in there. I was about to say that, Mr Chair. I seek leave to move items (1) to (40) on sheet 8710 together, noting that questions on items (23) and (39) will be put separately.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In respect of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019, I move items (1) to (40) on sheet 8710 together, noting that questions on items (23) and (39) will be put separately:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 3, page 2 (lines 14 to 17), omit the paragraph beginning "The Minister may make", substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An issuing authority, on application by the Minister, may make an order (called a temporary exclusion order) that prevents a person from entering Australia for a specified period, which may be up to 2 years. An order cannot be made unless certain criteria are met, and it can be revoked.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Clause 3, page 2 (lines 18 to 22), omit the paragraph beginning "The Minister must refer".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Clause 3, page 3 (lines 6 and 7), omit "and is satisfied of specified matters", substitute ", is satisfied of specified matters and an issuing authority has approved the conditions".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Clause 4, page 3 (after line 19), after the definition of <inline font-style="italic">Australian travel document</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">interim temporary exclusion order </inline>means an order made under subsection 12A(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">issuing authority</inline> means a person appointed under section 23.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Clause 4, page 3 (line 23), omit the definition of <inline font-style="italic">reviewing authority</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Clause 4, page 3 (line 25), omit "subsection 10(1)", substitute "subsection 10(2)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Clause 8, page 5 (line 6), before "A person", insert "(1)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Clause 8, page 5 (after line 10), at the end of the clause, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The fault element for paragraph (1) (a) is knowledge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Heading to clause 10, page 6 (line 4), omit "Making", substitute "Applying for, and making,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Clause 10, page 6 (line 5) to page 7 (line 21), omit subclauses 10(1) to (5), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Minister may apply to an issuing authority for a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person only if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) subsection (3) applies in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Minister meets the requirements of subsections (4), (5) and (5A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) An issuing authority may make a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person only if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) subsection (3) applies in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the issuing authority meets the requirements of subsections (4), (5) and (5A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) This subsection applies to a person if:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person is located outside Australia; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the person is an Australian citizen; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the person is at least 14 years of age; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) a return permit is not in force in relation to the person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The Minister or issuing authority meets the requirements of this subsection if the Minister or issuing authority is satisfied, on reasonable grounds, that making the order would substantially assist in one or more of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) preventing a terrorist act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) preventing training from being provided to, received from or participated in with a listed terrorist organisation;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) preventing the provision of support for, or the facilitation of, a terrorist act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) preventing the provision of support or resources to an organisation that would help the organisation engage in an activity described in paragraph (a) of the definition of <inline font-style="italic">terrorist organisation</inline> in subsection 102.1(1) of the <inline font-style="italic">Criminal Code</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) The Minister or issuing authority meets the requirements of this subsection if the Minister or issuing authority is satisfied, on reasonable grounds, that the person has:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) committed, prepared to commit or instigated a terrorist act; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) facilitated the commission, preparation or instigation of a terrorist act; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) given encouragement to the commission, preparation or instigation of a terrorist act; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) given support or assistance to individuals who are known or believed by the person to be involved in conduct falling within paragraph (5) (a).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5A) The Minister or issuing authority meets the requirements of this subsection if the Minister or issuing authority, before applying for, or making, a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person, has regard to the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in a case where the person is 14 to 17 years of age:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) the protection of the community as the paramount consideration; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the best interests of the person as a primary consideration;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in every case:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) whether the person has a lawful right to remain, or to enter and remain, in a country other than Australia during that period; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) if the person has no lawful right to remain, or to enter and remain, in a country other than Australia during that period—the likelihood of the person being detained, mistreated or harmed if the person cannot enter Australia until the end of that period.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5B) In determining what is in the best interests of a person for the purposes of subparagraph (5A) (a) (ii), the Minister or issuing authority must take into account the following matters:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the age, maturity, sex and background (including lifestyle, culture and traditions) of the person;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the physical and mental health of the person;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the benefit to the person of having a meaningful relationship with his or her family and friends;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the right of the person to receive an education;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the right of the person to practise his or her religion;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) any other matter the Minister or issuing authority considers relevant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Clause 10, page 7 (line 22), omit "the Minister", substitute "the issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Clause 10, page 8 (lines 9 and 10), omit paragraph 10(6) (i), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) state the judicial review rights in relation to the decision to make the order and any related return permit; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) state the grounds for deciding that the criteria in subsection (2) for the making of the order have been met (excluding any information that is likely to prejudice national security).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Clause 10, page 8 (lines 14 and 15), omit "the Minister must cause such steps to be taken as are, in the opinion of the Minister,", substitute "the issuing authority must provide a copy of the order to the Minister and the Minister must cause such steps to be taken as are".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Page 8 (after line 21), after clause 10, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10A Contents of applications for a temporary exclusion order</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An application by the Minister under subsection 10(1) for a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) be made either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) in writing (other than writing by means of an electronic communication); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) if the Minister considers it necessary because of urgent circumstances, orally in person or by telephone, or by fax, email or other electronic means of communication; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) set out the facts and other grounds on which the Minister considers the temporary exclusion order should be made; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) specify the period for which the temporary exclusion order should remain in force and set out the facts and other grounds on which the Minister considers that the order should remain in force for that period; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) set out the information that the Minister has about the person's age; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) set out the outcomes and particulars of all previous applications for temporary exclusion orders made in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) set out the outcomes and particulars of all previous applications for variations of temporary exclusion orders made in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) set out the outcomes of all previous applications for revocations of temporary exclusion orders made in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) set out any other matter the Minister considers relevant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Clause 11, page 8 (line 23), after "The Minister", insert "or an issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Clause 11, page 8 (line 25), after "the Minister's", insert "or the issuing authority's".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Clause 11, page 8 (after line 29), after subclause 11(2), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2A) If an issuing authority revokes a temporary exclusion order under subsection (1), the issuing authority must notify the Minister as soon as practicable after revoking the order.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Clause 11, page 8 (line 31) to page 9 (line 1), omit "the Minister must cause such steps to be taken as are, in the opinion of the Minister,", substitute "or being notified of the revocation of a temporary exclusion order under subsection (2A), the Minister must cause such steps to be taken as are".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(19) Clause 11, page 9 (line 9), after "the Minister", insert "or issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(20) Clause 12, page 9 (after line 19), after subclause 12(1), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1A) As soon as practicable after an application is made under subsection (1), the Minister or Department must provide a copy of the application to the issuing authority who made the temporary exclusion order, or if the issuing authority is unavailable, another issuing authority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1B) If the Minister or Department gives a copy of the application to another issuing authority, the Minister or Department must cause such steps to be taken as are necessary to ensure that the other issuing authority has all the information that the issuing authority who issued the temporary exclusion order had when the order was issued.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(21) Page 10 (after line 15), after clause 12, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12A Interim temporary exclusion orders</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If the Minister is satisfied that, because of urgent circumstances, it is necessary that a temporary exclusion order in relation to a person comes into force immediately, the Minister may make an order (an <inline font-style="italic">interim temporary exclusion order</inline>) under this subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Minister must not make an interim temporary exclusion order under subsection (1) in relation to a person unless:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) subsection 10(3) applies in relation to the person; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Minister meets the requirements of subsections 10(4), (5) and (5A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If the Minister makes an interim temporary exclusion order, the Minister must, as soon as practicable, apply for a temporary exclusion order in relation to the person under subsection 10(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) For the purposes of applying the other provisions of this Act in relation to an interim temporary exclusion order until a decision is made on the related application under subsection (3) of this section:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the interim temporary exclusion order is taken to be a temporary exclusion order made under subsection 10(2); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) any reference to an issuing authority is taken to be a reference to the Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(22) Clause 13, page 10 (line 16) to page 11 (line 5), omit clause 13, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 Period for which a temporary exclusion order etc. is in force</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A temporary exclusion order in relation to a person comes into force immediately after an issuing authority makes the temporary exclusion order in relation to the person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A temporary exclusion order in relation to a person remains in force until the earlier of the following occurs:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the period specified for the purposes of paragraph 10(6) (d) ends;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the order is revoked under section 11.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) An interim temporary exclusion order comes into force immediately after the Minister makes the interim temporary exclusion order in relation to the person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) An interim temporary exclusion order in relation to a person remains in force until the earlier of the following occurs:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an issuing authority makes a decision on the related application made by the Minister under subsection 12A(3);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Minister issues a return permit to the person under subsection 15(1).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(24) Clause 15, page 14 (line 10), omit the note, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 1: See section 18 for how an application for a return permit can be made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note 2: There are judicial review rights in relation to decisions under this subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(25) Clause 15, page 14 (lines 19 to 25), omit "within a reasonable period" (wherever occurring), substitute "as soon as practicable".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(26) Clause 16, page 17 (lines 7 to 10), omit subclause 16(7).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(27) Clause 16, page 17 (line 14), omit "(to the extent known to the Minister)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(28) Clause 16, page 17 (after line 22), after subclause 16(8), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8A) Before the Minister imposes a condition mentioned in subsection (9) or (10) on a return permit, the Minister must request, in writing, the approval of an issuing authority to impose the condition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8B) A request under subsection (8A) must set out the facts and other grounds on which the Minister considers the condition should be imposed on the return permit.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8C) In considering whether to approve the condition, subsections (3) to (8) are taken to apply to the issuing authority in the same way as those subsections apply in relation to the Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8D) To avoid doubt, the Minister must not impose the condition if the issuing authority does not approve the condition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(29) Clause 17, page 20 (lines 18 and 19), omit ", in the opinion of the Minister,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(30) Clause 17, page 20 (after line 24), at the end of the clause, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Subsections 16(3) to (8D) are taken to apply to a decision under subparagraph (1) (a) (i) of this section to vary the period during which the permit is in force in the same way as those subsections apply to a condition imposed on a permit under that section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(31) Clause 20, page 22 (after line 32), at the end of clause 20, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The fault element for paragraph (1) (a) is knowledge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(32) Heading to clause 23, page 25 (line 3), omit "Reviewing authority", substitute "Issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(33) Clause 23, page 25 (line 5) to page 26 (line 2), omit "a reviewing authority" (wherever occurring), substitute "an issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(34) Clause 23, page 26 (lines 3 to 8), omit "reviewing authority" (wherever occurring), substitute "issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(35) Clause 23, page 26 (line 10), omit "A reviewing authority", substitute "An issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(36) Heading to clause 24, page 26 (line 14), omit "a reviewing authority", substitute "an issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(37) Clause 24, page 26 (line 16), omit "a reviewing authority", substitute "an issuing authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(38) Clause 25, page 27 (line 13), omit "making", substitute "applying for".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(40) Clause 31, page 29 (lines 12 to 16), omit paragraphs 31(2) (c) and (d).</para></quote>
<para>These amendments to the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill ensure that the bill conforms to the unanimous and bipartisan recommendations of the Labor and government members of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. They do no more than that and they do no less than that. Indeed, I have listened closely to the conversation between Senator Patrick, Senator McKim and Minister Reynolds and note that one of the amendments that we are moving does in fact address the very questions that Senators Patrick and McKim have been pursuing with the minister.</para>
<para>I do want to speak briefly to each of the recommendations of the intelligence and security committee that the government has failed to implement and set out how the amendments that I am moving seek to give effect to those recommendations. I will seek to do this as briefly as possible, noting that these are highly complex matters. The first recommendation of the committee was to amend the bill to require the minister, before making a temporary exclusion order which would require the person to either surrender their Australian passport or be prevented from applying for a new Australian passport, to have regard to, to the extent that the information is available, whether the person has a lawful ability to stay in their current location for the duration of the order; whether the person has a lawful ability to enter a third country—for example, due to holding a passport or residency visa for that third country—and the likelihood of that person being detained, mistreated or harmed if the person has no lawful ability to stay in their current location and no lawful ability to enter a third country for the duration of the order.</para>
<para>The government say they have implemented this recommendation, but that is simply not the case. I wonder whether the government has misunderstood the committee's recommendation, because what it has done is put those considerations at the point of imposing a return permit rather than at the point of imposing the temporary exclusion order. The committee, which was chaired by Liberal member Andrew Hastie and is dominated by Liberal members, including Liberal senators, specifically recommended that these matters be considered before the minister imposed the TEO.</para>
<para>Why would the reasons say that these matters should be considered at the point of a return permit but not at the point of issuing a temporary exclusion order? It makes me wonder whether the government understands the difference between a temporary exclusion order and a return permit. It would be good if the government had agreed to Senator Patrick's motion earlier and, indeed, the request that I had made that this bill be referred back to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, because we could actually interrogate the government and officials and have an iterative process that might have allowed us to come to a better conclusion. However, the Minister for Home Affairs has simply said he won't be taking advice from this committee any longer. That is what he said in the House yesterday. It's the 'my way or the highway' approach to national security that the minister now seeks to implement. The government has claimed it has implemented the first recommendation. That is, in a very literal sense, not true. Amendment (10) would implement the committee's recommendation.</para>
<para>The second recommendation of the committee was to amend the bill to require the minister to give a return permit to a person as soon as practicable. The committee recommended that it be as soon as practicable. The government says it has implemented recommendation No. 2. No, it has not. It has changed it to say 'within a reasonable period'. That is not the same as 'as soon as practicable'. Amendment (25) seeks to give implementation to that recommendation.</para>
<para>Recommendations Nos 3 and 12 from the committee would have seen the bill amended to prevent the making of a temporary exclusion order unless the decision-maker:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… reasonably suspects that</para></quote>
<list>the person is, or has been, involved in terrorism-related activities outside Australia, and</list>
<list>making the order would substantially assist in preventing the provision of support for, or the facilitation of, a terrorist act.</list>
<para>This recommendation, recommendation No. 12, would have also prevented the minister from acting as nothing more than a rubber stamp for a security assessment. These recommendations were rejected by the government. That's particularly telling, because over the last few days we've heard from the government that the targets of this bill are people who have been fighting with groups like the Islamic State group in Syria, but that directly contradicts what Home Affairs told the committee in public hearings. The department told the committee that any person who is known to have engaged in active fighting in conflict zones in Syria or Iraq or both would not be subject to a temporary exclusion order and that such a person would be allowed to come back to Australia, arrested at the airport, put on trial and held in jail. The department actually said that if an arrest warrant is out a temporary exclusion order is not required. They said that in hearings. The government has to be honest about what this bill actually does and the problem that it's seeking to address. The rejection of this particular amendment illustrates the fact that today the government has not been straightforward about those matters.</para>
<para>The second part of these recommendations would have prevented the minister from acting as a rubber stamp. We know that this minister gets things wrong. He got it wrong on Neil Prakash. The intelligence and security committee quite sensibly proposed an amendment that would require the minister to turn his mind to the task of issuing an exclusion order. It is disappointing that the government has sought to reject recommendation Nos 3 and 12. Amendment (10) would implement them.</para>
<para>Recommendation No. 4 would be implemented by amendment (26). The fourth recommendation of the committee was to amend the bill so that in determining the best interest of a child before issuing a TEO—because they do apply to children as young as 14—the minister would have to take into account the child's age, maturity, sex, background, physical and mental health, the right to receive an education, and other matters. The government's approach to this would allow the minister to be wilfully blind to those matters, because it would allow the minister to say that those matters are not relevant. The committee said that those matters are relevant. It should not be for the minister to decide which matters are relevant or not relevant. Amendment (26) addresses this issue and implements that recommendation in full.</para>
<para>The fifth recommendation of the committee was to amend the bill to require that a temporary exclusion order set out:</para>
<list>that the issuing authority is satisfied of the matters mentioned in section 10,</list>
<list>a summary of the grounds on which the order is made, excluding information that is likely to prejudice national security, and</list>
<list>the person's rights of review in relation to the order and any return permit that is made.</list>
<para>This just simply was not implemented by the government. The bill doesn't require the order to state the grounds on which an order is made—so a person will have a TEO but they won't even know why—and nor does it require the order to set out the person's rights of review. Amendment 12 implements this recommendation in full.</para>
<para>Recommendation 7 is addressed by many amendments, including (10), (14), (17), (20), (22), (28) and (30). This recommendation was to amend the bill to require that a temporary exclusion order may only be issued by an issuing authority, such as a retired judge, and that the authority must approve conditions in a return permit. The government say that it has implemented this recommendation in full. The minister often says that this is just like the UK scheme. It is not just like the UK scheme; the UK scheme, in fact, is as the committee recommended. The government has created its own process, a process that is highly questionable in its constitutionality and which would in fact put this legislation in doubt as to whether it would actually be effective. Recommendation 7 is a significant recommendation. It is one that seeks to implement what the UK scheme has done, and there is no evidence that it's not working for the United Kingdom. The government hasn't given any substantive justification as to why it hasn't taken up recommendation 7, and that's why we're moving those amendments.</para>
<para>The 10th recommendation is a very simple one:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee recommends that the Bill be amended to clarify that a person may seek judicial review of a decision of the Minister to grant or refuse an application for a return permit.</para></quote>
<para>Incredibly, this was rejected by the government on the grounds that it was unnecessary! The government argued that it was unnecessary to expressly provide for a judicial review in the circumstances by pointing to the fact that a minister must accept the application for a return permit.</para>
<para>But this is not precisely true. The minister must give a return permit if the person has applied to the minister in a prescribed form and manner, and:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… if the person is to be, or is being, deported or extradited to Australia.</para></quote>
<para>Implicitly, the minister may refuse to give a return permit if he or she does not believe the person has applied in an appropriate manner or form, and the minister may or may not be correct about that. So amendment (24) makes clear that there are judicial review rights in relation to a decision to grant or refuse an application for a return permit. This is pretty basic, and it's extraordinary that the government doesn't think it needs to be included.</para>
<para>Recommendation 11 would be implemented by amendment (31), and would see the bill amended:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… so that, in any prosecution for a breach of an offence provision under the Bill, the prosecution must prove that the defendant had knowledge of the existence of the temporary exclusion order or of the relevant return permit condition (as applicable).</para></quote>
<para>As a general principle, people should not be prosecuted for breaching an order they are unaware of, especially in circumstances where an order can be issued on the basis of the matters believed or satisfaction of certain matters and where the breach of order can result in a prison sentence. The government has failed to provide a coherent argument as to why that general principle should not be adhered to in these circumstances.</para>
<para>While it is true that a person may not be aware of an exclusion order at the time it's issued—because, perhaps, they're in a remote location or the government doesn't know where the person is—any such person who tries to return to Australia would presumably be made aware of the order when he or she tries to board a plane, for example. Is the government really saying that a person who is subject to one of these orders would not be flagged on an airline's computer system?</para>
<para>The government has to explain why, in a practical sense, requiring the prosecution to prove actual knowledge of the existence of the order is unworkable. It is not enough just to assert that. That's what the government has done, though, in its submission to the Intelligence and Security Joint Committee, and no member of that bipartisan committee, Labor or Liberal, was convinced. That is why the committee has made recommendation 11, and amendment (31) would implement that recommendation of the committee.</para>
<para>So, there you have it: nine recommendations of the bipartisan Intelligence and Security Joint Committee that were not implemented by the government and which Labor's amendments would seek to implement in full. This is, as I said, a bipartisan committee of this parliament which has operated quite effectively, particularly since 2013, from when there has been a raft of significant national security legislation put before the parliament. That committee has worked quite effectively. It is chaired by a Liberal member of parliament and it is Liberal dominated. They made 18 substantive recommendations. The government, in proceeding with this legislation and proceeding with this legislation in a manner that does not allow the bill to go back to the committee, means we are forced to deal in the Senate with the issues that properly should have been dealt with by the intelligence and security committee.</para>
<para>I flag that Labor supports the intent of this legislation and Labor supports this legislation. I will not have this legislation go through the parliament without Labor's support, because we want a scheme. We want a scheme that works. We understand the threat that returning foreign fighters pose to the Australian community. What we want is a scheme that keeps Australians safe, that is constitutionally valid and that works. While we will support this legislation, we are moving these amendments in an effort to improve it to ensure that Australians have a scheme that they can rely on that is constitutionally valid and that will withstand a High Court challenge. It is unfortunate that the government is proceeding in this way with this legislation.</para>
<para>I flag that there are further amendments that I will move to the consequential bill, but moving these amendments—and I do seek the support of this chamber—is about implementing all of the recommendations of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll be brief. The Australian Greens understand that the amendments that we're currently debating, moved by Senator Keneally, do in fact reflect the recommendations of the Joint Standing Committee on Intelligence and security. On the basis that they make a terrible piece of legislation slightly less bad, we will be supporting the amendments. But I want it placed on the record that, even should these amendments pass, we still would not support the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Also briefly, I indicated in my speech on the second reading that we would abstain, on the basis that we support the intent of the bill; however, we are very unsatisfied with some of the protections for innocent people that are in the bill. But if these amendments by the Labor Party are successful, we would in fact support the bill in the amended form.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government will not be supporting these amendments, as they would substantially weaken the TEO scheme in what we believe is a fair and balanced piece of legislation. I'd just make a note of Senator Keneally's points. Andrew Hastie, the chair of the committee, is satisfied himself that the government amendments do address the committee's major issues, and he has said so himself in the House.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1) to (22), (24) to (38) and (40) on sheet 8710 be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [13:27]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M (teller)</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>6</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Cash, M</name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that clauses 14 and 30 stand as printed.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [13:35]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>6</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Sterle, </name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In respect of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019, I move amendment (1) on sheet 8712 standing in my name:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 9), after item 1, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1A At the end of Part 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">30A Certain reports and briefings</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a report by the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor referred to in subsection 29(1) or 30(1) relates to a review of the <inline font-style="italic">Counter</inline><inline font-style="italic">‑Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Act 2019</inline>, or a report relating to that Act is otherwise prepared in the course of the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor carrying out the functions in subsection 6(1); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Committee on Intelligence and Security requests, in writing given to the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor, a copy of the report;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor must give the Committee a copy of the report, or a copy of extracts from the report that deal with that Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) If the Committee on Intelligence and Security requests a briefing in relation to the report or extracts, the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor must give the Committee such a briefing.</para></quote>
<para>This amendment, like the ones I just moved, seeks to give full implementation to the recommendations made by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security on the legislation currently before the House. As I have said several times in this debate—and I make the point again—the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security is one that is dominated by Liberal members of this parliament. Labor has five members on that committee and the Liberal Party has six. A Liberal member chairs the committee.</para>
<para>That committee gave thorough consideration to the temporary exclusion orders legislation before the parliament, as requested by the government, and made 18 substantive recommendations. The government, for the first time since 2013, has chosen to reject in whole or in part 11 of those recommendations. In doing so, it has rejected four in whole and six in part and has ignored one entirely. We have already dealt with the one they've ignored entirely, because they are refusing to release the advice from the Solicitor-General that this legislation is constitutional. This amendment seeks to, as did the ones that we've just debated—I note the government voted against those amendments that we considered. In doing so, senators who are on the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, such as Senators Stoker, Fawcett and Abetz, saw their own colleagues vote against their own recommendations.</para>
<para>It may be the case that the Liberal chair of that committee, Mr Hastie, has come to a view personally that he's happy to support the government's position, but, as the chair of the committee, his responsibility would be to speak on behalf of the committee, and the committee has spoken. The committee put forward those 18 substantive recommendations, the 19th recommendation being that this bill pass the house subject to those recommendations being adopted by the government. Mr Hastie may have had a change of mind as a member of parliament, but he is also the chair of the committee. He can only speak for himself. He cannot speak for the committee. I make that point because the committee did not have the opportunity for the government's legislation that we are currently considering to come back to it, and that legislation is different. It's different to what the committee considered, it's different to what the committee has recommended and it's different to the United Kingdom's scheme that the government so frequently compares these laws to.</para>
<para>This amendment would seek to amend the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019. It would seek to give effect to recommendation 16 of the Intelligence and Security Committee. This is an important one, because it goes to the notion of oversight and the ability of the committee to interrogate and understand how this legislation is being implemented. This is extraordinary legislation. The minister herself has acknowledged that. I acknowledge that. It is extraordinary legislation. It seeks to bar a citizen of the country from re-entering the country for a period of time. It requires that citizen to get a return permit from the government. When the return permit is applied for, the minister must grant it. That's something we haven't heard the government, and particularly the Minister for Home Affairs, reflect upon too often in public, but that is the fact. This bill is not so much about excluding people as it is about organising their safe return; having conditions in place to manage their safe return, to keep themselves safe and to stop them from radicalising others; and keeping Australians and the Australian community safe. That is what this bill really does.</para>
<para>These are extraordinary powers that we are giving to the minister. I recognise that we're in extraordinary circumstances, because foreign fighters are a new problem for countries like Australia. People have gone overseas, sometimes taking family members against their will—not to be fighters; just to be with them. Sometimes those family members get radicalised overseas. People who have gone over to be part of the so-called caliphate have sought to do Australia and Australians harm and have sought to do our allies harm. We have, as US Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, says, a responsibility to deal with our own citizens. We do have, as, of all people, President Trump said in February this year on Twitter—he tweeted that the US expects their allies to be responsible for their people. President Trump made the point that the Americans did a great deal of work, in the military sense, in seeing ISIL stopped—although it hasn't gone away. President Trump has a view that the allies of the United States should take responsibility for their people and bring them home: to face justice, to face court processes or, indeed, to face deradicalisation programs; to work to see if we can integrate people back into the community, where that's appropriate to do so; or, where they have committed a crime or crimes, to put them on trial and to see their incarceration. These are extraordinary powers, these are extraordinary times and it is extraordinarily necessary that we take these steps.</para>
<para>What this recommendation from the committee would do is amend the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor Act 2010 to enable the National Security Legislation Monitor to provide a copy of its reports at the same time as those reports are provided to the Prime Minister. The committee also recommended that the monitor should be empowered to brief the committee on his or her findings. That's what it does. It simply says that the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor should be able to provide a copy of its reports on this legislation to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security at the same time those reports are provided to the Prime Minister and that the monitor should be empowered to brief the committee on his or her findings. This goes directly to the oversight of the use of these new powers to the parliament through the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security.</para>
<para>One would have thought, given the work that the committee did considering these extraordinary new powers—making recommendations on a way to improve them, making recommendations to ensure that they work, that they keep Australians safe, that they are constitutionally valid—that, when we are taking the extraordinary step of barring a citizen from having a free right to enter their own country, when we have good reason to do that because of the circumstances I've just outlined and when we are organising and putting conditions on the manner in which they return and on how they will live in Australia, it would be appropriate that the parliamentary joint committee have that ability to have oversight.</para>
<para>This recommendation is actually consistent with recommendation 23, sub-recommendation d), of the 2017 National Intelligence Review, which recommended that the role of the intelligence committee be expanded to:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… to request a briefing from the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor (the Monitor), to ask the Monitor to provide the PJCIS with a report on matters referred by the PJCIS, and for the Monitor to provide the PJCIS with the outcome of the Monitor's inquiries into existing legislation at the same time as the Monitor provides such reports to the responsible Minister …</para></quote>
<para>So this recommendation from the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, which is dominated by Liberal members, mirrors exactly the national intelligence review ordered by then Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull. This was an independent review of our national security laws and this is exactly the recommendation they made. A parliamentary joint committee where the Liberals have the majority, the government has the majority, has made the same recommendation to the government and here today the government, in its legislation before this parliament, is actually rejecting that recommendation.</para>
<para>When that 2017 national intelligence review was released publicly, then Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull said, as he stood next to the now Minister for Home Affairs, that the government had accepted the recommendations of the review. Well, in rejecting this recommendation 16, the government has now told the parliament that it is still considering the recommendations of the 2017 Independent Intelligence Review. So what has changed? What has changed since Prime Minister Turnbull said the government have accepted the recommendations and today the Minister for Home Affairs and the government in their response to this bill and these recommendations from the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security now say they're just considering them? They haven't accepted them; they're just considering them now. What has changed? Well, we know the Prime Minister has changed. Perhaps that's it; I don't know. Again, if this matter had come back to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security—quite frankly, if the chair had done his job as chair and sought to bring the government's response back so we could examine it or we could question it—we could seek to understand why the government had made changes and we might be able to answer this.</para>
<para>But two years after the public release of the 2017 National Intelligence Review, it's time for the Minister for Home Affairs to do his job and actually implement this recommendation, and if he can't do that then he needs to explain what has changed since 2017. Why did the government say in 2017 that they would implement this recommendation? Why did the government members on the PJCIS in April of this year recommend that this be implemented? And why now is the Minister for Home Affairs taking a backward step? He's opposed to oversight?</para>
<para>We have extraordinary powers. Is he opposed to oversight? Does he fear parliamentary scrutiny? This is a committee his own government has the majority on. This is a committee that has extraordinary access to information. It wouldn't be the first time the committee has received confidential or secret information, but the committee should have this oversight. The parliament should have a body that it is confident is providing oversight.</para>
<para>But here we have it. In 2017, they accepted oversight. In April this year, the Liberal members—were they going rogue? Had they gone rogue? Had they not consulted with the government before they made these recommendations? I think that's an interesting question to contemplate. How do we get to a circumstance where six Liberal members of a committee sign their names to 18 recommendations that are now being rejected in whole or in part by their own government? Did these six Liberal members go rogue? Senator Stoker, Senator Fawcett and Senator Abetz: did they go rogue?</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Brockman interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Brockman makes a good point—it's possible. Did Mr Hastie go rogue? I don't know. I don't know the answers to these questions. Did they get strongarmed by the minister? I don't know. But what I do know is the government is saying, in rejecting this recommendation, that it doesn't want the oversight of this extraordinary legislation.</para>
<para>I ask for the support of this chamber. Amendment (1) that I am moving here today would fully implement the sensible, the modest and the unanimously agreed 16th recommendation of the intelligence security committee, which simply seeks to give effect to the 2017 national intelligence review, which former Prime Minister Malcolm Turnbull told us the coalition government had already adopted. I call on members opposite and the crossbench to support this amendment.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll be very brief. As I indicated previously, we understand that these amendments do reflect the recommendations of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security. They make a terrible piece of legislation slightly less bad and, on that basis, the Greens will be supporting them.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 8712, as moved by Senator Keneally, be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [13:57]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>6</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                  <name>Cash, M</name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. <br />Progress reported.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I advise the Senate that Senator Payne will be absent from question time today due to ministerial business overseas. In Senator Payne's absence, Senator Birmingham will represent the Minister for Foreign Affairs, the Minister for Women, the Minister for International Development and the Pacific, the Attorney-General and the Minister for Industrial Relations.</para>
</speech>
</debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>56</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the minister representing the Minister for the Environment, Senator Birmingham. Following representations by Minister Taylor, then Minister Frydenberg's office arranged a meeting which took place on 20 March 2017 between Minister Taylor, Minister Frydenberg's office and members of the Department of the Environment and Energy to discuss a listing which affected Mr Taylor's private landholding. How many other farmers affected by this listing got this special treatment?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for his question. As has been made very clear, the member for Hume requested a briefing in relation to the listing as a result of constituent and electorate interest in the matter.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chisholm, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One of the members of the department in attendance at that meeting was a compliance officer from the unit responsible for investigating Minister Taylor's company for allegedly poisoning hectares of critically endangered grasslands. How many landowners under investigation by the department are given this special treatment?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I again draw the senator's attention to the statements that have been made that Mr Taylor did not ask for or indeed even know that the officer present at the meeting was a compliance officer—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order—I'm reluctant to do it so quickly, but given the last answer was only about nine seconds long: references to past statements are not directly relevant to the question. This question is: how many other landowners got this special treatment? I think the public are entitled to know that. The government is saying: 'This was perfectly fine. Minister Taylor can demand this.' How many other landowners got this special treatment?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm reluctant to say that references to past statements are, by that nature, not directly relevant. I thought the minister was actually addressing the first part of the question, which was the preamble to the bit you just reminded him of. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Mr President, I was indeed making the point, given the question referenced the attendance of a compliance officer at the meeting, that Mr Taylor has been clear that he did not know that there was a compliance officer present at this meeting. I further highlight the statement of the secretary of the Department of the Environment and Energy, who has said very clearly on the record, 'In relation to compliance, I can be very clear that Minister Taylor has never raised the issue with me.'</para>
<para>In relation to the insinuation that somehow nobody else is concerned about this issue, can I draw the Senate's attention to a joint letter from New South Wales Farmers and the National Farmers' Federation dated 3 October 2017 with regard to 'EPBC listing: natural temperate grassland of the South Eastern Highlands of New South Wales and the ACT'. This clearly was an issue of interest to farmers across this region, including the local MP. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chisholm, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How many attendees of the meeting were made aware of Minister Taylor's direct interest in the matters being discussed? Did Minister Taylor declare his interest at the start of the meeting?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note that the Department of the Environment and Energy has already addressed and answered questions in relation to these matters. I refer the Senate to that <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> and equally invite the Senate, if it would like, in terms of its general interest in this topic and desire to appreciate that this was a matter of broader concern—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance: we haven't had an answer to any of the questions asked so far. This question is asking how many attendees were made aware of the interest, and that hasn't been answered before. We'd appreciate an answer to just one of these three questions.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's an opportunity to debate the merits of any answers after question time. I'm listening carefully to the minister to ensure direct relevance. He is 17 seconds in. I call on him to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to compliance matters, I again draw attention to Mr Taylor's statements that 'I have never made a representation in relation to compliance matters' and the secretary of the department's statement that he can be very clear that Minister Taylor has never raised the matter with him. In relation to what the topic of the briefing was about, which was the general listing, there are other interests in the general listing, as evidenced by the fact that New South Wales Farmers and the National Farmers' Federation made representations on it. I seek leave to table the correspondence from New South Wales Farmers and the National Farmers' Federation.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister doesn't need leave to table a document. Senator Birmingham has tabled the document.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Defence Force</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Defence. Can the minister update the Senate on how Australia is deepening defence co-operation with the United States to ensure a stable, peaceful, and prosperous Indo-Pacific region?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator McGrath for that question and for his support for the alliance. The Australia-US alliance is the cornerstone of Australia's defence and security policy. The strength of our alliance is based on our common values, our shared vision and a commitment to peace, prosperity and stability in our immediate region and beyond. It's wonderful to note that we are now in the second century of unbroken mateship and global support and military co-operation. We have got 80 years of diplomatic relations and nearly 70 years of ANZUS co-operation. Our alliance is stronger than ever. It has never been more important or more vital to us than it is today, because today Australia faces challenges that are increasing in number and complexity, challenges that are rapidly redefining our strategic environment.</para>
<para>The Morrison government recognises that a modern and enduring Australia-US alliance is critical if we are to respond to these challenges effectively. This is the message I relayed recently to the very newly appointed US Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper. I warmly congratulate him on his confirmation and I look forward to working with him.</para>
<para>This government is committed to further deepening our defence co-operation with the US, including through the US Force Posture Initiatives. We're working together to step up engagement with regional countries in the Indo-Pacific, with our neighbours and friends, and we are doing it together.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister update the Senate on Exercise Talisman Sabre, the bilateral US-Australia military exercise?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Exercise Talisman Sabre reflects the strengths of the Australia-US alliance and the closeness of our military-to-military relationship. It is our largest and most complex exercise. Over 34,000 military personnel from Australia and the United States participated in Talisman Sabre this year. Talisman Sabre took place at the Defence Shoalwater Bay training area and surrounding state forest near Rockhampton and other locations in Queensland. Force elements from Japan, Canada, the United Kingdom and New Zealand joined in Talisman Sabre.</para>
<para>Talisman Sabre provided an excellent opportunity to further enhance interoperability between Australia and the United States. I'm delighted to report to the Senate that our people, our men and women of the ADF, once again did a magnificent job and did us all proud. I take this opportunity to thank the local community, including landowners, state governments and also the traditional owners. Without their generous support this could not have happened. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McGrath, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline to the Senate what the milestones are that have been achieved in our defence relationship with the United States?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I announced earlier today, the Marine Rotational Force-Darwin reached a major milestone this week, with 2,500 US marines now in the Northern Territory. The force has grown in size and complexity since the first rotation of 200 in 2012. This current rotation represents the most capable and operationally focused deployment to date.</para>
<para>Delivering on this commitment demonstrates the enduring nature of the US-Australia alliance and our shared intent to fully implement the US force posture initiatives. The Marine Rotational Force-Darwin provides critical strategic and security benefits for both Australia and the United States. By us training together, the warfare fighting capabilities and interoperability of the ADF and the US forces is enhanced. The rotation also provides opportunities to strengthen engagement with other allies and partners in the Indo-Pacific region.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. On Tuesday, when asked about the Liberal-National government's targeting of Townsville flood victims as part of its robo-debt program, the minister told the Senate four times—and I quote: 'There has been no debt recovery undertaken in the Townsville area.' Does the minister stand by her statement?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Green for her follow-up question in relation to this matter. As I advised the senator in the chamber on Wednesday, following her question on Tuesday, I contacted and spoke to the mayor of Townsville, Mayor Jenny Hill, and explained to her that the Department of Social Services had not commenced debt recovery in the Townsville area, and I expressed to the mayor that there was no intention for that to occur.</para>
<para>I did, however, say at the time—and I also relayed this information to the senator opposite on Wednesday—that if there had been any instance of debt recovery in Townsville, and they were aware of it, that they should please bring it to my attention so that I can take action, because I stand by my comments that no debt recovery has commenced in Townsville. If, by some fluke or accident, a debt recovery action has been undertaken of which I am unaware, I wish to know it so that I can stop it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Despite the minister giving her assurance to the Senate four times, the minister's own department has directly contradicted the minister, telling the <inline font-style="italic">Townsville Bulletin</inline> that compliance activity has resumed this month. Can the minister explain to the Senate why her own department contradicted her, only one day after she gave assurances to the Senate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for her question. I will reiterate my comments: I give an absolute undertaking to this chamber that debt recovery has not commenced in Townsville, and if my agency, or any agency that falls within my portfolio, has made that comment then they were wrong. It has not commenced and it will not be commencing in the foreseeable future.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Green, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Townsville Community Legal Service solicitor Michael Murray says that there has been a steady increase in recent weeks of people seeking advice after being hit with a Centrelink debt notice. Will the minister immediately direct her department to cease compliance activity in the Townsville area and withdraw any notices issued this month?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure if you listened to my response to the question. I said that if anybody has got a debt notice and if you, Senator Green, have got a debt notice that's been issued—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, on my left! Order! Senator Ruston.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In response to your question, as I said to an earlier question, to the best of my knowledge, there has been no debt recovery action taken in Townsville. However, as I said to Mayor Hill and to you in this chamber, privately and on camera: if you have any instance at all then please provide me with the evidence and I will ensure that it is immediately stopped. If you have any evidence at all of anybody in the Townsville area having received a debt recovery notice, could you please bring it to my attention and I will ensure it is immediately stopped.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Newstart Allowance</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. Minister, according to the data from the Department of Social Services, the average amount of time someone spends on Newstart is 156 weeks—that is, three years. Why does the government continually refer to Newstart as a transition payment when it clearly isn't, given the average length of time that somebody is on Newstart is three years?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Siewert for her question and can I acknowledge her ongoing and longstanding interest in this particular area. First of all, nobody has ever said it would be easy to live on Newstart. And I can assure you that the government's—of which I am a member—absolute No. 1 priority is to make sure that anybody who's currently on Newstart is given the best opportunity to get a job. Newstart was never meant to be a salary or a wage replacement; it's a safety net. I acknowledge that it wouldn't be easy to live on Newstart; however, this government remains absolutely committed to anybody who is on Newstart. We will do everything we possibly can to get them a job.</para>
<para>The track record that we have in this place over the term of this government—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Siewert</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I tried to be pretty specific when asking why the government continues to refer to this as a transition payment when somebody's on it for three years. I'd like the minister to specifically address that issue, please.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You've reminded the minister of the nature of your question. I'll listen carefully. I call the minister to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said, the most important thing that we can do as a government and as a nation for people who find themselves without a job is to create the jobs that they need and then create the pathways to get access to those jobs. This government, the government of which I'm a member, has a great track record of job creation, with 1.3 million jobs created since we've been in government. And we have a plan to create more jobs, over one million more jobs.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston. Senator Di Natale, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Di Natale</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance: you've drawn the minister to the specific point made in the question. There wasn't a long preamble; it's very direct. It was: why does the government refer to Newstart as a transitional payment when the average length of time is three years? I ask you to direct the minister to the question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask the minister to turn to the nature of the question given that she's had an opportunity to address relevant material—to be directly relevant to the length of time or the reason the government uses terminology—but she can be directly relevant by referring to the length of time people are on Newstart as well. That was part of the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In continuing my response to the senator's question, I was actually trying to draw to the senator's attention that the creation of jobs is the best way that we can get people off Newstart and to make sure they're on Newstart for a shorter period of time. If the jobs aren't available in the economy for people who are on Newstart and who are looking for a job, then that makes it extremely difficult. As I said: 1.3 million jobs since we've been in government and a plan to create more than a million more. But it's not just about creating jobs; it's also about creating the pathways to those jobs, which we also see as a very important part of the government's role. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The largest cohort of people receiving Newstart are people aged between 54 and 64. Why is it fair for the Prime Minister, as reported, to be talking about an increase to the age pension when a 64-year-old on Newstart receives $287.90 less a fortnight than a 65-year-old on the age pension?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Siewert for her follow-up question. We accept that the most important role that we have—and I certainly accept it as my most important role in the development of social policy—is to make sure that we make the lives of every Australian better. For somebody who hasn't got a job, obviously that is to provide the opportunity for them to get a job. Part of that is in the employment sector, where my colleague, Senator Cash, who's unfortunately not here this week, through her jobactive, is creating the opportunity for people to understand that jobs are being created in the economy and providing them pathways to get those jobs. But also, in the disability sector, one of the things we're doing as a government is investing very strongly in disability employment services to make sure that people with disability have an equally strong chance of being able to get a job and are able to participate in the economy to the level that they want to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>After housing costs, even with the energy supplement, Newstart recipients are left with around $17.65 a day. Could the minister live on $17.65 a day and still be able to afford food, health care, transport and utilities?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Siewert for her follow-up question. As I said before, in the answer to her original question, nobody is saying it will be easy to live on Newstart. Nobody's saying it would be easy to live without a job. That is why the absolute focus of this government is to create jobs and to create pathways for people who don't have a job to get a job. As I said, and I said it in both of the answers to the previous questions, the focus of this government is absolutely on job creation and pathways to jobs. For people who are currently on Newstart, the promise that this government will give them is that we will do everything we possibly can to get them off Newstart and into a job.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Superannuation</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Marielle SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. Despite your assurances, Senator Paterson said on Monday:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I also think it's worthwhile for the government … to examine the wisdom of increasing the compulsory superannuation contribution from 9.5 per cent to 12 per cent.</para></quote>
<para>Yesterday, Senator Bragg, in his first speech, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I would change direction. Super should be made voluntary for Australians earning under $50,000.</para></quote>
<para>And, later:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… I would be inclined to make the whole scheme voluntary.</para></quote>
<para>Does the minister agree with Senator Bragg?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The answer is no. I've told him that privately—and now publicly! Let me say, the two senators that you just referenced, what an amazing bunch of people they are. What great senators they are. Do you know what? Not only are they great senators for the states of New South Wales and Victoria; they're part of a great team. They're part of a team which is building a stronger economy, which is creating better opportunities for Australians to get ahead.</para>
<para>They're part of a team of people that were elected by the Australian people to again form a government. Do you know why that is? Because people across Australia understood that it was our team that would help build a stronger economy. It would be our team that would help create more jobs. It will be our team that will help ensure that Australians can be safe and secure. They understood and they rejected the politics of envy pursued by the Labor Party. They rejected the high-taxing, antibusiness, sneering-at-the-top-end-of-town agenda, which Australians understood would have made our economy weaker, would have made our country weaker and would have left every Australian worse off.</para>
<para>I'm very proud of every single member of our team here in the Senate. Let me tell you, they all make a fantastic contribution in their respective states and as part of our team here in this chamber. All of us are entitled to our individual views, but we act as a team and we act in the public interest, consistent with the commitments we made to the Australian people before the last election.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Marielle SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, will you rule out the consideration of delaying or stopping superannuation guarantee increases, or making superannuation voluntary, from the slated review into retirement incomes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think that's the third time that I've now answered these questions. I refer to my previous answers.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Marielle SMITH</name>
    <name.id>281603</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, how can Australians trust this government when it comes to protecting their retirement incomes when an ever growing number of government members are undermining your assurances that their super guarantee increases will proceed as outlined in law?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! I can't recall for whom it is first questions, but can we show a modicum of that, given we are in the first weeks of the new Senate.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The answer to the question is that the Australian people have made a decision on who they trust with their retirement savings. They decided that they could trust us and that they couldn't trust the Labor Party. That is because the Labor Party went to the election with a promise to take $30 billion out of their superannuation savings, and that is even before we talk about the retiree tax, the housing tax and the higher taxes on income. Let me tell you, the Australian people know precisely who they can trust with their retirement savings, and they certainly also know that they can't trust the Labor Party.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Water</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator McKenzie, representing the Minister for Water Resources, Drought, Rural Finance, Natural Disaster and Emergency Management. Australia's population has grown by five million, or 25 per cent, since 2007. During this 12-year period, the price of water has increased dramatically, causing hardship for rural and regional communities. This hardship could have been avoided if the government had invested in water security and not become the single largest owner of water in the Murray-Darling River system. The federal government owns 28 per cent of all water entitlements in the southern basin of the Murray-Darling, which means droughts there are experienced earlier and more intensely than would otherwise be the case. This scale of water ownership cannot be justified when the government is unwilling or unable to prepare a detailed water management plan for Australia. What is stopping you from taking the necessary action to reduce immigration until we can create nation-building water projects like the hybrid Bradfield scheme or like?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There was a lot in that, Senator Hanson. The question I heard asked was what I was going to do about reducing immigration levels. I'm not responsible for immigration policy in this country, and neither is the minister I represent. I'm very, very happy though—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is this: my question relates to what are you going to do—yes, immigration—to create nation-building water projects like the hybrid Bradfield Scheme.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister is entitled to be directly relevant to any part of the question you ask, including the preamble, Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson, for the clarification. I'm more than happy to go to the question around what we in the Liberal-National government are doing around nation-building water infrastructure. We are getting on with the job. We're building new water infrastructure to meet the needs of regional Australia. We've committed more than $3.3 billion in funding, through the $1.3 billion National Water Infrastructure Development Fund and the $2 billion national water infrastructure loan, to build dams, weirs and pipelines. Our government has already committed more than $990 million through the fund to co-fund the construction of 21 water infrastructure projects, with a total construction value of about $1.98 billion. Funding is flowing to build projects in your home state of Queensland, as well as Victoria, South Australia and Tasmania.</para>
<para>These vital water infrastructure projects will increase water availability to our job-producing agricultural regions and will create more than 4,600 jobs and provide access to more than 45,000 megalitres of new, secure and affordable water. Our investments in these projects will guarantee new and affordable water for regional Australia into the future and unlock the economic potential for new and expanded agriculture right across regional Australia.</para>
<para>In addition to bringing new water infrastructure, the government's providing more than $119.5 million for 51 studies to get water infrastructure projects off the drawing board, including more than $59 million for Urannah Dam, Emu Swamp Dam, Hells Gate Dam and Big Rocks Weir. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The separation of water ownership from land was brought on by the Howard government in 2004, but it has created a double-edged sword as anyone can buy water as a commodity and then hold that water in dams, year after year, while regional communities go without. Why have we allowed 20 per cent of groundwater and 15 per cent of water licences to come under foreign ownership in Australia? And I'm relating my question mainly around the Murray-Darling Basin.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson. On behalf of the minister responsible for water and the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, Minister Littleproud, I am confident that our government is doing everything it can to ensure that the environment gets its entitlement of water while the socioeconomic security is maintained for the communities that you and we want to see grow and prosper. That is why our government, in conjunction with state governments of the basin—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order: my question is directly relating to why we have got 20 per cent of groundwater and 15 per cent of water licences in the hands of foreign owners. That is my question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, that was part of your question. I remind all senators that ministers are entitled to be directly relevant to any part of a question asked, including any preambles. I call the minister to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're going to the ownership of the water licences. Obviously, that has been an issue raised by many stakeholders throughout the basin and that is why the minister responsible, Minister Littleproud, has actually requested the ACCC to conduct an inquiry into water-licensing holding arrangements, which is being conducted as we speak. I'm sure you, like us, want to see the results of that inquiry as soon as possible.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In that case, then, if you've actually got to pull another 450 gigalitres out of it for the Murray-Darling and the environment—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, that's not what—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So, you actually—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Hanson, please continue. Senator McKenzie, please let the senator ask the question. I will give the senator extra time.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. As I said before, the government owns 28 per cent of the water in the Murray-Darling Basin. If foreign ownership of the water is to the extent of 12 per cent of the groundwater and 15 per cent of licences, will the government then take back that water allocation from the foreign ownership and give it back to the communities—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Hanson I've granted you substantially extra time, given the interruptions. Senator McKenzie.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We want a transparent approach—an accountable approach—to how the water within the basin is actually accounted for so that all Australians can have confidence that, yes, our environmental assets are getting the water that we all agree they should, but also, importantly, that those communities and those irrigators actually have water that they need to sustain everyday living and, indeed, productive agriculture capacity throughout the basin.</para>
<para>That is why, for the 450 you were talking about, we actually instigated a socioeconomic test with a range of criteria to be assessed and agreed before any of that water can be recovered.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is: will the government look at taking back those foreign owned water licences to get the water back—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, that's the third time you've raised a point of order by restating part of your question. It's not an opportunity to restate part—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I've got 17 seconds left for the minister to answer—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, please resume your seat. I can't instruct the minister how to answer a question. Points of order on direct relevance are not opportunities to restate a preferred part of a question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, obviously, water licensing is the purview of the state governments within the basin. I'm sure they'll look at the ACCC recommendations into water-licensing arrangements and water-purchasing arrangements very closely, and then that will form some of their— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Coal Industry</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Resources and Northern Australia. Minister, the coal industry contributes around $5 billion worth of royalties for schools, hospitals and better roads across Australia every year, and it accounts for more than 53,000 direct jobs, mostly in regional Australia. Are you aware of any proposals that would put this important industry and the thousands of jobs it supports at risk?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator McDonald for her question, and recognise her strong passion to support jobs in regional Queensland, particularly in North Queensland. A lot of those 50,000 jobs are up there in the north. I know that she, myself and the whole Liberal-National government are there to support jobs in our resources sector and to support jobs in our coal industry. We want to see that thrive and grow.</para>
<para>Unfortunately, there are those who continually try to talk down our nation's biggest export. This week, the Australian National University hosted a forum, and the title of the forum was 'The coal transition forum'. It was here in Canberra, to discuss jobs in North Queensland. At that forum, the shadow minister for climate change, Mr Pat Conroy, gave a speech in which he said that global demand for thermal coal is in structural decline. He said that there's a proactive role for government in achieving a just transition for the coal industry, and he said that Labor will continue to work on alternative policies for a just transition.</para>
<para>Now, when we hear the words 'just transition' up there in North Queensland they sound a little bit confusing. What exactly is a just transition? The Labor Party, thankfully, did actually outline this before the last federal election. In their policy—in their own documents—the Labor Party promised to:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… establish an independent Just Transition Authority to help plan for and coordinate the response to the eventual closure of coal-fired power stations …</para></quote>
<para>And associated mines. They said that the authority will, as a minimum, have the power to implement pooled redundancy schemes for workers in coal-fired power stations and mines. So the Labor Party, the so-called workers party, have established a bureaucracy here in Canberra to put people out of a job! That was going to be the job of the just transition authority under a Labor government here in Canberra. The people in North and Central Queensland aren't fools. They know they're not fighting for their jobs—they're going to put them out of a job. With the Labor Party, we need to understand where they are post election, because Mr Fitzgibbon, the shadow minister for resources, is out there saying that global coal demand will go up. Pat Conroy is saying it will go down. Which one is it?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What would be the impact of such reckless policies on Australia's coal communities, particularly in my home state of Queensland?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think it's best, when you want to know what's going to happen in a particular area where change might occur, to actually ask the people who live in those areas. I know and I know Senator Macdonald knows—living in these areas, we talk to people about what might happen if these things happen. People like Mr Kelly Appleton, who's the publican of the Grand Hotel in Clermont in Central Queensland, spells it out very clearly. He says, 'People don't realise that if the mines close so do the towns'. That's exactly what happens. If the mines go, the towns go, the schools go, the petrol stations go, the newsagents go, the jobs go. That's what happens. And that's why we're supporting the development of these communities and supporting the development of our great coal industry, our nation's biggest exporter. We'd like to see it bigger and better and creating more jobs and more wealth for regional towns and more opportunities for the families who live in Central and North Queensland.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What is the global outlook for the coal industry, and what are the benefits of using and exporting Australian coal?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Despite the views of the shadow minister for climate change, in fact the outlook for the coal industry, and particularly the Australian coal industry, is a fantastic one. It's fantastic because the growing demand for energy in our region means that countries will continue to demand high-quality resources, and we are lucky enough to have been blessed with some of the highest quality coal in the world. So, that will continue to be a very strong industry for our nation, as long as we allow it to do what it does best.</para>
<para>Indeed, the International Energy Agency predicts that in the next 20 years or so, or by 2040, demand for thermal coal will grow by almost 500 million tonnes of coal equivalent. The Australian industry only produces about 250 million tonnes of coal a year, including our domestic needs. So it's an incredible opportunity for our nation to capture—if we support these jobs and support these regions, and, of course, if we also continue to provide high-quality energy to the rest of the world.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Disability Services</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. Between 2014 and 2017, the New South Wales Ombudsman found that there were no less than 42 preventable deaths of disabled people in New South Wales residential care, including 11 deaths via choking. During this period, Commissioner Ryan was a senior public servant of the very New South Wales department responsible for the care of these individuals. Of these 42 preventable deaths, the Ombudsman found that there were two where a direct link existed between the death and a program that Mr Ryan oversaw. In light of these conflicts of interest, can the government understand why disabled people, particularly in New South Wales, feel like they are being asked to disclose to their abusers?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Steele-John for his question and his extraordinary advocacy on behalf of people who live with disability. The Morrison government stands by its appointments to the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability. The panel of commissioners is representative of a diverse range of backgrounds, which includes lived experience of disability, judicial and policy experience, and Indigenous leadership.</para>
<para>The two individuals to whom Senator Steele-John referred this morning in his motion, and the one he's just referred to in his question to me, have made significant contributions in their fields, as evidenced by their receipt of the Public Service Medal and the Member of the Order of Australia award. However, in relation to the specific appointments to the royal commission into disability, as with any other royal commission that is a matter for the Attorney-General, and I'll take the rest of the question on notice.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>From 2010 to her appointment to the royal commission, Ms Barbara Bennett PSM was a senior public servant working for the Department of Social Services, the very agency, she would be aware, that has direct oversight of the National Disability Insurance Scheme. Given that this process has at times, by the government's very own admission, failed and led to participants being harmed, can you understand the frustration felt that such individuals would be appointed to a position to investigate their own department's actions?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Steele-John. It's probably best to refer you to my answer to the previous question, because it's a very similar question to the one that you asked about the other commissioner that you're referring to. However, as I said in the previous answer, I will refer any of the details and the specifics of the question that you have asked me to the Attorney-General.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given that more than 60 disability organisations, senior disability advocates and now this very chamber have called on the government to replace both Commissioners Ryan and Bennett with individuals supported by the community that will give evidence before this commission, will the government now commit to urgently replacing these two commissioners?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Morrison government stands by its appointments. But I would also like to put on record in this chamber that it is the Morrison government that set up the Royal Commission into Violence, Abuse, Neglect and Exploitation of People with Disability, and that the Prime Minister himself is an extraordinarily strong advocate for supporting people with disability. I look forward to, in a minute, actually explaining to the chamber some of the initiatives that the Morrison government has put in place and intends to put in place to support people with disability. Senator Steele-John, I very much look forward to working with you in my capacity as the Minister for Families and Social Services to make sure that we can make the lives of all Australians, particularly those with disability, better.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Superannuation</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Cormann: I refer to the government's proposed changes to superannuation default insurance. From 2003 to 2016 more than 3,400 workers lost their lives on the job. Of those, 335 were under the age of 25. Why does the government want to deny young workers and their families the benefits of cost-effective default insurance?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I completely reject the premise of that question. The government doesn't want to do anything of the sort. The government supports choice, though, and the government supports measures which help ensure that, in particular, small superannuation balances aren't inappropriately eroded by fees going into the pockets of insurance providers in relation to insurance that might not be appropriate to their needs. This is obviously a matter that has been discussed for some time in this chamber, and this chamber has, indeed, already passed some important reform in this space designed to protect the retirement savings of working families around Australia. The government stands by the measures that it's put forward.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Police Federation of Australia argues that it is extremely difficult to find individual total and permanent disability—TPD—coverage and income protection outside the existing public sector funds due to the dangerous nature of police work. Why does the government want to deny young police officers and their families the benefits of cost-effective default insurance?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, I don't accept the premise of the question. We support people choosing the insurance they need according to their needs.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know, of course, that those opposite are standing up for particular vested interests. We've got a history with all of this.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Cormann, I have Senator Wong on her feet on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question goes to young police officers. Is the minister suggesting they are a vested interest?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With all due respect, Senator Wong, that's not a point of order. There was a great deal of noise, and I could barely hear the minister, who does have a very strong voice. Can I ask senators to be silent.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We stand on the side young police officers, young nurses, young workers in the retail sector, and indeed, young Australians all around Australia, and we don't want their small superannuation balances eroded by excessive fees in relation to services they often don't even know have been contracted on their behalf. So that is entirely appropriate and that is a very transparent position that the government's adopted for some time.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In March 2012, a 22-year-old fourth-year carpentry apprentice suffered a prolapsed vertebrae and a severe neck strain while on a site in New South Wales. Why does the government want to deny young apprentices the benefits of cost-effective default insurance?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We don't want to deny anyone the access to insurance that they—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my left.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We don't want to deny anyone access to insurance, but we actually respect individual Australians to make their own choices.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senators Keneally, Wong, McAllister.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll assume that was an observation.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Disability Services</title>
          <page.no>65</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Please, order on my left. There were observations earlier in the week about people asking their first questions. Senator Bragg.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services. Would the minister advise the Senate as to what the Morrison government is doing to improve the employment opportunities for people with disabilities?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bragg for his first question despite the interjections, and also acknowledge the presence in the gallery of his parents, who must be tremendously proud. Thank you very much for this extremely important question. One of the things that a strong economy does for Australia and for all Australians is it provides job opportunities, and none could be more important than providing job opportunities for people with disability, because this government, the Morrison government, believes in encouraging people. We believe in encouraging aspiration, providing opportunity and rewarding effort. We want people who live with disability to have a choice and some control around their life so they can achieve their goals.</para>
<para>One of the things that the Morrison government has announced is an investment of $3 billion into the Disability Employment Services Program. Through this program, we particularly want to target workplace initiatives such as workplace modifications and adjustments, so people with disability can find it easier to work in their workplace, and support wage system assessments, wage subsidy schemes and a national disability recruitment coordinator.</para>
<para>Just last year, the Morrison government changed the disability employment service program to help more people with disability find a job. I'm pleased to say that 234,000 people use the Disability Employment Services program. And through this program, we are seeing improvements in the results for people with disability achieving the outcomes that they want for themselves. We have seen participation rates increase by 21 per cent, 41,000 people are accessing the support that they need and 15,000 people have not only been assisted in finding work but also in remaining in that work. On this side of the chamber, we believe it is our responsibility to do everything we can to get all Australians back into work and that includes helping Australians who are working with disability and living with disability to get a job as well.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bragg, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There is a misconception that when you have a disability you may be less employable. What is the government doing to remove barriers to employment for people with a disability?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Bragg, for your follow-up question. We want to make sure all Australians who live with a disability have the ability to contribute to the Australian economy to their best ability. It's not just good for them; it's good for their families, it's good for their community and it is good for the Australian economy for everybody and anybody to have a job.</para>
<para>Last year, the Morrison government kicked off the Employ their Ability campaign, which was designed around creating awareness of the ability and the contribution that people with disability can make in the workplace. We're pleased to announce that we have already encouraged 105 large companies and organisations to recognise the benefits of employing people with disability. We went to the last election with a suite of measures that, whilst they are ambitions, we think are absolutely achievable. We've asked the Public Service to make sure that seven per cent of the people who work in the Public Service have a disability. We've announced also $45 million to develop a national disability gateway, amongst myriad other initiatives.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bragg, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What other opportunities are there to celebrate the achievements of people with a disability?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I mentioned earlier, we really want to make sure that people with disability get the opportunity to contribute to the economy and to society to their fullest ability, but we think everybody can play a role. It's not just the role of government. I acknowledge Dylan Alcott, the recently re-crowned Wimbledon champion, on the launching of his foundation and the dedication of its objectives towards gaining employment for unemployed people with disability. I congratulate and commend Dylan on this fantastic initiative.</para>
<para>We need to raise awareness so that we can celebrate the opportunities and contribution of people with disability. One of the things that I announced this week was the appointment of Kurt Fearnley as patron of the International Day of People with Disabilities. This year it will be held on 3 December. It's an annual event. This year we're particularly encouraging schools to become involved. To schools out there: please, post on your Facebook page about how inclusion, support and recognition of people with disability is a good thing in your community.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Minister for the Environment and Energy</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Birmingham, the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Energy. Whilst trying to justify his decision to vote for the government to protect Minister Taylor, Senator Patrick today said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… I've been shown evidence that Minister Taylor was asked to make representation on behalf of some constituents.</para></quote>
<para>What evidence was Senator Patrick referring to? Will the minister undertake to table a copy in the Senate?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Wong for her question. I did not have any conversations with Senator Patrick. I'll take the question on notice.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps you might wish to talk to Senator Cormann. Minister Taylor's brother is a director of Jam Land Pty Ltd, the company in which Minister Taylor has a financial interest and which owns land at the centre of the allegations against Minister Taylor. Was Minister Taylor's brother one of the constituents who raised concerns with Minister Taylor?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If there's anything further to add in relation to constituent representations I'll bring that back to the chamber. As I have stated to the chamber before, very clearly, Minister Taylor's interest in Guffee Pty Ltd has been declared appropriately on the register of members' interests. His interest in Jam Land Pty Ltd is held indirectly through that interest in Guffee Pty Ltd, but is certainly a matter of the public record.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The meeting that took place following representations by Minister Taylor, then Minister Frydenberg's office and members of the Department of the Environment and Energy was revealed as a result of documents released under freedom of information. Can this minister explain why the evidence Senator Patrick referred to earlier today as a basis of justifying his protection, with the government, of Minister Taylor was not released or referred to in any part of that freedom of information request?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That of course depends on what the scope of that freedom of information request was. Having taken the first and primary question on notice, if there's anything that informs an answer to that further I will bring that back to the chamber, too, Senator Wong.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Sport</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Youth and Sport. Will the minister update the Senate on the government's commitment to the South-East Queensland bid for the 2032 Olympic Games? What are the risks if the Queensland state government delays its decision to back the bid?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Scarr for his question. I understand his obvious interest in the very exciting bid for the 2032 Olympics that's been proposed, particularly, by the South-East Queensland mayors and the opportunities that the bid will bring to South-East Queensland. There's enthusiasm for the bid from the Prime Minister, and Mr Ted O'Brien has been appointed as the Prime Minister's representative to push the bid forward.</para>
<para>We were delighted to see the Queensland government finally coming on board with some action for participation in the process to bid for the 2032 Olympics. I must say though that they were somewhat lacklustre. The Commonwealth government put $10 million on the table to support this bid during the election campaign. That was welcomed by the mayors of South-East Queensland and, of course, the Australian Olympic Committee. The process has been, I think, very well set up for Australia to be in a very strong position to be successful in its bid. The Queensland government have, effectively, offered some in-kind assistance, but they need to get on board properly. They need to join the Australian government. They need to join the Australian Olympic Committee. They need to join the community of South-East Queensland in being actively supportive of this bid, but they are not. They are putting a very slow time frame on their economic impact survey, which needs to be completed quickly. They're saying they'll do it next year. It should be done this year. We face the possibility of losing the very exciting window that we have to be a leading nation bidding for the 2032 Olympics and losing all of the advantages that would bring to this country. I certainly urge the Queensland government to actively get on board. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In addition to backing the South-East Queensland bid for the Olympics, how is the government supporting sports organisations who look to bring international sporting events to Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In addition to the $10 million that we've already put on the table towards the bid for the Olympic Games—the opposition demonstrate their complete ignorance of the situation that exists around the opportunities to bid and perhaps that's why the Queensland government is so slow—we've put almost $20 million on the table to bid for other opportunities for global sporting events to come to this country. We're backing the Football Federation's bid for the 2023 FIFA Women's World Cup. We have also announced funding to support bids for the 2027 Netball World Cup and Rugby Australia's bid for the 2027 World Cup. We're also assisting in the promotion and preparations for ICC Twenty20 world cups for men and women in Australia next year.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Will the minister outline the importance of hosting international sporting events to the development and growth of Australia's sporting industry?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks to Senator Scarr for the supplementary. It demonstrates the importance of these events and what the industry of sport can bring to the Australian economy. Currently in Australia the sports industry employs a workforce of more than 220,000 people. It's responsible for spending more than $12 billion through sport and sport infrastructure each year. That's why this is so serious. Securing major international sporting events, such as the Olympics, not only inspires the next generation of athletes in this country but also strengthens Australia's sports industry. It strengthens those numbers that I've just talked about. Our government is also committed to the development of the sports industry growth plan. We announced that as part of our 2030 sports plan, which was presented by Senator McKenzie last year. We have a very, very strong commitment to the sports sector in this country and to the employment that goes with it.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Infrastructure</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Resources and Northern Australia, Senator Canavan. In 2015, in a dissenting report to the Economics References Committee on the matter of the privatisation of state and territory assets and new infrastructure, the minister said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… continued public ownership of a business operation can place the Government in a conflicted position, as both regulator and provider of services.</para></quote>
<para>Does the minister still believe that governments cannot be trusted to operate public assets?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for this opportunity to travel down memory lane, so to speak. I think you mentioned the report was in 2015? Is that right? I can't actually recall the Senate committee report myself. I can't necessarily, therefore, confirm or otherwise the specific quote that has been made from it. I can't recall, myself, whether I was the author of those words, or simply a signatory to them or otherwise. It's a bit hard to comment on something that of course is well outside the portfolio of the Minister for Resources and Northern Australia.</para>
<para>But what I would say, just briefly, on this particular topic is that I think the quote goes to a pretty central point about governance and policymaking. It's not a matter of trust, Senator Gallacher; it is about making sure, of course, that objectives are met—different objectives and different responsibilities—in independent ways across policymaking. But, as I said, I would have to check the record before I could confirm or otherwise the status of a Senate committee report from, I think, around four years ago.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Gallacher, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, perhaps another trip down memory lane, Senator Canavan: in another dissenting report of the Economics References Committee, the minister said in respect of the sale of Medibank Private:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… an exemplary case of privatisation done well …</para></quote>
<para>Given rising health insurance premiums and the steady decrease in Australians purchasing private health insurance, does the minister still stand by his comments that the privatisation of Medibank was an exemplar?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm going to have to plead absolute ignorance there. I can't actually recall at all a Senate committee inquiry of that nature. I'm not sure what year that one was in, but, again, I'll have a look and see if there is anything to add here to that question.</para>
<para>I do confirm to the Senate, though, and to you, Mr President, that I was a regular author of dissenting reports in my time as a Senate backbencher. Not that I'm encouraging anyone in our Senate team in this practice, because, as we can see, this is what may come back to bite you! So, to all the new senators who might be thinking of going down this path: just be very careful about what you do!</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Gallacher, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A more contemporary question: in the <inline font-style="italic">Brisbane Times</inline> there was a report last week that Treasurer Josh Frydenberg left the door open for the reintroduction of the asset recycling scheme. This would force states to sell public assets in order to access infrastructure funding from this federal government. Does this minister support further privatisation of public assets that will affect people in his portfolio area of Northern Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, a quote from a newspaper article I haven't seen; I can't confirm or otherwise know the veracity of that quote and whether it does indeed reflect the views or otherwise of the Treasurer.</para>
<para>Obviously, now you're asking me a question that is well outside my portfolio, so I'd refer any questions around that to the Treasurer. Of course, that previous scheme that the senator referred to only involved the decisions of state governments. So it's state governments that made decisions around those things and it's appropriate for questions about those to be placed to them.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>69</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Energy</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a correction to an answer I gave to a question from Senator Paterson yesterday.</para>
<para>After reviewing the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> from question time yesterday, I believe that perhaps an incorrect impression may be given from what was written there. I want to clarify that the federal government is investing $50 million in hydrogen research across both the ARENA programs I referred to and the Future Fuels CRC. I thought, after reviewing the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>, that it might have left an impression that over $70 million had been provided. So I'm just correcting that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I appreciate the minister coming in and correcting the record. It is a standard that should be adhered to, and one that I think some ministers on the other side, and particularly in the other place, should adhere to more regularly.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>69</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Superannuation</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister representing the Prime Minister (Senator Cormann) to a question without notice asked by Senator Marielle Smith today relating to superannuation.</para></quote>
<para>As our population gets older, ensuring a fair and proper superannuation system is vital. This is especially the case for women, who have child-raising breaks in their career and a longer life expectancy than men. In the early nineties, the very idea of compulsory superannuation was denounced by the LNP, those opposite, and the business lobby as a 'company killer'—that unemployment would rise and the economy would be damaged. All that was wrong, of course. Now we have the LNP again, led by Senator Bragg, telling low-income earners that superannuation isn't working for them. It's a bit rich for someone on over $200,000 a year to tell someone on less than $50,000 a year that they don't need a decent retirement income. How dare they? Not to be left out on his own, in the other place Mr Tim Wilson and Mr Craig Kelly also want to talk about the planned super rate rise to 12 per cent being handed to workers as being a 'pay rise', not superannuation.</para>
<para>This LNP government want to get their hands on the superannuation of workers. They want to take it away. They want to stop them getting the rise. Senator Cormann stood here today and said he refuted that, but he didn't rule out that it would be in the review. He didn't rule that out. How dare they come in here and tell people on low incomes that they're not worthy of a decent retirement income, that they should look forward to their retirement existing on the age pension—that's what they expect them to do—and not have anything extra to enjoy those little things in life like maybe a visit to their interstate family or that little trip that they could not afford in their younger days when they were raising their kids, struggling every day on a pension to pay their power bills, to buy food, to buy medications. They want them to do all that again while existing on the age pension.</para>
<para>We know that women have less superannuation than men. I've highlighted that many times in this place. But until the superannuation guarantee act came into place in the early 1990s, many working women had no retirement savings at all. There were many men who also had no retirement savings until that act came into place. But let me tell you a little bit about the working women. Women currently retire with 47 per cent less superannuation than men. On average, women live five years longer than men. Women only receive a third of the government tax concessions on super. Men receive the other two-thirds. Forty per cent of older single retired women live in poverty and experience economic insecurity in their retirement. Some 46.9 per cent of women are in the workforce. So the statistics are skewed. Forty-four per cent of women rely on their partner's income as the main source of funds for their retirement. The average female salary is $44,000. That includes part-time workers. Female graduates earn $5,000 less than male graduates in the same role. Women spend an average of five hours more per day caring for children than men. Forty-three per cent of women work part-time and yet they earn under $50,000. The statistics are glaring. What the backbench over there, and in the other place, are supporting is that that money should not be going into a superannuation fund for these workers to retire on. It is outrageous. Women take an average of five years out of the workforce to care for their families. So what we're seeing here again and again are deep divisions in the government ranks, with the Prime Minister urging his MPs to go through the usual internal party processes. But there are a growing number of Liberal MPs who are agitating on this issue. To them and to the Prime Minister I have four words: hands off our super. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Isn't it interesting how afraid those opposite are of bright ideas? This is the season of maiden speeches and, thanks to a very successful election outcome by the Liberal and National parties on 18 May, you're going to hear a lot of new ideas from our bright new senators and MPs elected in that particular election, where Australians chose to back the Liberal-National parties and our candidates to continue to deliver a strong economy and to continue to work to ensure that that strong economy delivers local jobs right around Australia. We're not afraid of ideas, so you're going to hear a lot of different reasons why people have come here. On your side, you'll only hear one reason: 'My union has a view, and it wants it expressed in the Australian parliament.' That's all that your new senators and MPs will be contributing to this place. 'My union needs me to stick up for them here in this place,' Whereas our new members and senators have a whole range of things they want to see delivered over a period of time, and their maiden speeches are the time to do that.</para>
<para>What you shouldn't get confused about is a maiden speech by a new senator or MP and government policy—two very different things. We're not afraid of new ideas, and we look forward to discussing and debating the many wonderful ideas that have been raised—and some old chestnuts, as well, that always get dusted off and brought out at maiden speech time—over the course of our careers, but the government's position on superannuation is clear. It has not changed, and to try to use people's contributions here in their maiden speech—the philosophies that they've all brought, the diversity that our party rooms bring to this place—as somehow a proxy for government policy is just ridiculous and actually shows how desperate you are, how despondent you are at the result of 18 May.</para>
<para>Our government's policy on superannuation guarantee hasn't changed. Let me be unequivocal on that. To come into this place and bray on as if somehow we're going to dismantle the retirement of senior Australians on the back of someone's maiden speech is absolutely ridiculous. Our focus on superannuation is actually to get rid of high fees, duplicate accounts, underperforming funds and unnecessary insurance, because one thing we on this side of parliament want to see is that hardworking Australians get to keep more of their own money. We did that by promising income tax cuts and, thanks to this place passing those income tax cuts in the last sitting, more Australians—94 per cent of hardworking Australians—will get an income tax cut over coming years, getting to keep more of their hard-earned cash. We don't apologise for that. That is actually why we sought election and is actually part of our mandate.</para>
<para>Australians need to have confidence in our superannuation system and be assured that it's going to be used for its core purpose, which is actually providing income into retirement. Our government believes it's essential that the superannuation sector be managed with the highest level of responsibility and integrity for the benefit of members. If only we could be confident that the Australian union movement could be managed in a way that workers could have confidence in its integrity and that it was actually being focused on members' interests and not on the interests of the union thugs such as John Setka. I'm really looking forward to Anthony Albanese explaining how supporting the expulsion of Mr Setka from the Labor Party but not supporting legislation that would actually make it happen—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie, please resume your seat. Senator Gallacher.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallacher</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer the senator to the appropriate title of the person in the other place.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind you, Senator McKenzie, to refer to others by their correct titles.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm looking forward to Mr Anthony Albanese explaining how Labor is not supporting legislation to ensure that members of unions can have confidence in the integrity and the responsibility of those managing their money and the millions of dollars that the Australian union movement uses.</para>
<para>At least $30 million of workers' money is being siphoned annually from militant-trade-union-owned worker entitlement funds that are meant to administer workers' money for workers' benefits. This is what our legislation in the other place is seeking to address. So, instead of coming in here and mistaking a maiden speech for government policy, why don't you get serious about supporting Australian workers and support— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to take note of the answer given by Senator Cormann to a question asked by my colleague Senator Marielle Smith. At the outset, in response to Senator Cormann's statement, 'All this was transparent throughout the election campaign, all this was part of the policies we put to the people,' I want to use one example from Senator Bragg's speech, and it goes to the point:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We have the fourth-largest private pension pool in the world with only 25 million people. It remains a strange but huge experiment.</para></quote>
<para>Where, in what land, does a contribution in this chamber about having the fourth-largest savings pool in the world from a relatively small population become, somehow, a 'strange but huge experiment'? It is a very successful example of what Australia can do well. It's not without challenges, but you never went to the election saying you're going to delay superannuation payments of 12.5 per cent. You never went to the election and said: 'We've got this strange, huge experiment; we've actually got too much money in workers' retirement accounts!' Try and sell that out there!</para>
<para>Kerry Packer said, 'You only get one Alan Bond in your lifetime and I've had mine.' Maybe the senator will be the one we get. We'll only get one Senator Andrew Bragg, who's so ridiculous in his ideology that he's going to go try and tell 10 million or 12 million Australian workers they've got 'too much money in their accounts! Too much money! It's a strange experiment!' What a load of you know; come on. Anyway, we're lucky to have him. This is good for us. I'm sure that people who have an $80,000, $90,000 or $100,000 investment account in super are going to look at his comments and say: 'They're more than passing strange. I get comfort from having a retirement balance of whatever amount. If I get TPD, income protection and, dare I say, life insurance from a respectable group life insurance policy, I get some comfort from that as well.'</para>
<para>Senator Urquhart is exactly right. There is no greater example of the disparity of the earning capacity of women than in superannuation. Their accounts are invariably lower, they're invariably out of the workforce for longer periods of time and they're almost always lower-paid.</para>
<para>I've had people put it to me that the actual value of that superannuation account for most of their 35 or 40 working years, is the security of having group insurance for death, TPD and income protection. When they do get to that retirement phase, they have had that security overlay in all their working life. If you lot take it away for younger people and for less fortunate people in the workforce who earn less money, what happens when they get injured? What happens when they're totally and permanently disabled and can no longer work? What happens if, unfortunately, someone gets killed and they've got dependants? I actually know, because we used to have a barbecue—I worked at mine sites where we donated a day's pay after a death. I know what the system was before, and you lot want to take us halfway back there. It's an absolute disgrace! And you let loose those ideologues over the back there—the Patersons, the Stokers—probably never done a decent hard day's work in their lives! You let loose those ideologues—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Abetz</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order: can I remind Senator Gallacher of his own point of order that he raised against Senator McKenzie—that is, that people in this and the other place ought be referred to by their proper title.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Abetz, and I'll remind you to please direct your remarks to the chair. Senator Gallacher, again, people need to be referred to by their correct titles in this place. Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Absolutely my intention is also to refer to the people on the other side by their correct title. I don't know if 'ideologue' was the point of order, but I don't really think that that is disparaging; I think it is the correct description of some of those on the other side.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Gallacher, it was using their last names without their title of 'senator'.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLACHER</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I said 'Senator Stoker' and then 'Paterson', so thank you—point of order taken. The reality is we know what the world was like prior to '84, '86 and '87, when unions created industry super funds. We know how immeasurably better the world became in '92 when it became the superannuation guarantee. We've had 27 years of uninterrupted economic growth, and our pride in our savings pool should be a national pride. We can do better, and no-one on this side of the chamber says anything other. But to take away that security overlay that is there in group life insurance is fraught with real challenges, and it will impact on the most vulnerable. And you need to see that, rather than having the tax take in the forward estimates of $600 million.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ABETZ</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You know the Australian Labor Party's on the back foot when they raise, as the issue of the day, two sentences out of the maiden speech of the most rookie senator in this place. To pick two sentences out of an excellently crafted speech and to try to make that the issue of the day tells the Australian people, yet again, something they already know—that the Labor Party are devoid of a forward agenda. They have no policies to pursue. Indeed, today's great agenda item for the Labor Party is to attack two sentences in Senator Bragg's first speech. Really? Is this the best the Labor Party can do? Regrettably, the answer's yes—that's the best they can do.</para>
<para>And why is it that the two particular senators that raised this issue felt so compelled to do it? All you've got to do is ask, 'What did they do before they came to this retirement home for washed-out trade union officials?' Oh, they happened to be trade union officials and trade union bosses. And from this super scheme that Senator Bragg referred to, who are the great beneficiaries? Oh, it happens to be the trade union movement. The trade union movement milks money from these funds, and guess where the money finds its way back to? To the Australian Labor Party! And guess what they do with it? They run campaigns to elect their union officials to this place. It is the full circle of the money-go-round of ripping off workers to ensure that the Labor Party gets sufficient funds. Why do they need these super schemes? Because the union officials who have just spoken have seen a decline in trade union membership. They can no longer run on the voluntary contributions of workers wanting to join a union.</para>
<para>Membership in the trade union movement has collapsed. It is now about one in 10 in the private sector. Ninety per cent of Australia's private sector workers don't want to be in a union. 'Oh, how do we get money out of them in that case', asks the Labor Party, 'if we can't force them into a union anymore?' What better way than to have a super scheme which, with a few little add-ones, can be milked to ensure a stream of income for the trade union movement? That is what we've seen today from the contributions of Senator Urquhart and Senator Gallacher, both former trade union officials concerned about the funding stream for their unions for their ongoing longevity.</para>
<para>Let's be clear, Labor senators come into this place basically as ventriloquist's dolls from the trade union that they formerly represented, whereas senators that come in on this side of the chamber come from a unique and varied background. Senators on this side of the chamber aren't ventriloquist's dolls for certain interests. They are not the cookie-cutter types of senators that come from the Labor Party's side. They are all individuals with good dynamic ideas that are worthy of consideration and worthy of exploring.</para>
<para>As the leader in the Senate quite rightly said, just because a new senator in his first speech explores a particular idea in two sentences out of a 20- or 25-minute speech does not make that idea government policy. That is why the Labor Party's latching onto this shows the desperation of the Australian Labor Party. They have no ideas of their own, nothing to offer by way of a positive contribution and nothing to suggest how the cost-of-living pressure might be able to be reduced for the Australian people. They say, 'What is the issue of the day? Let's pick on two sentences from the speech of a brand new senator who floated an idea for consideration.'</para>
<para>Whilst the Labor Party continues to wallow in this type of activity the Australian people will be quite right in their ongoing rejection of the Australian Labor Party. I would encourage the Labor Party to use this facility in the Senate to take note of answers to advance positive ideas for the benefit of the nation. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What we're doing on this side of the House is seeking clarity, better information and understanding. The desperation is not from this side of the House. The desperation is in those families who are struggling to feed their children, who are struggling to live on CDP—$11 a day—and who are struggling to live on Newstart. That's where the desperation is. So when a senator comes into the chamber and brings forward ideas we naturally will ask and examine: 'Where is the government going on this? How can Australians bank on what Senator Cormann says when members of his own government are touting more interference, in this case in superannuation?'</para>
<para>In the Northern Territory alone we have a figure of more than $200 million in lost and unclaimed super owed to people in the Northern Territory. I realise that this may be a small amount in the nationwide figure of $17.5 billion in lost super, but it is a huge amount for a population of less than 250,000 people. Thirty per cent of the population in the Northern Territory are First Nations people. So it is imperative that, when an idea or a concept as important as superannuation is even questioned, we challenge it and ask questions around it.</para>
<para>We have an ever-growing number of government members speaking out and undermining assurances from senior cabinet members about superannuation increases. It should be straightforward. These increases should proceed as guaranteed in law, yet we have even brand new senators talking about what they want to see happen with superannuation. Good luck to them, obviously, and welcome to the Senate, but also welcome to the scrutiny that is required of each and every senator. We all know that.</para>
<para>Senator Bragg made a very interesting first speech last night. Much of it I was very happy to hear, in particular that part around First Nations and their voice to parliament. But he also threw in the idea that, for some reason, superannuation contributions should be voluntary for low-income earners. So people who are low-income earners can look forward to an old age of poverty? These are the questions we have to now examine and ask. Or maybe they can live on the pension that Senator Ruston thinks is so generous.</para>
<para>Senator Bragg's statement that First Nations people should be rightly and properly recognised in the Australian Constitution is to be applauded. He's one of the first members of the government to support the inclusion of an Indigenous advisory body in the nation's founding document. But what is the government's actual position on constitutional recognition of Australia's First Peoples?</para>
<para>When we come in here and talk about superannuation, there is a lot that the government can turn its attention to to make sure the super system is working for all Australians. I've given you the figure in terms of the people of the Northern Territory. Recently, a Victorian charity called First Nations Foundation was in the Top End helping Territorians, particularly residents in our remote areas. As we know, in the Northern Territory over 100 Aboriginal languages are spoken. Those people were able to listen to the First Nations Foundation on how they can reclaim their lost super. Understanding the super system is a massive struggle for First Nations people and others with English as a second or third language living in remote areas. I mean, oh my goodness, you can have the best education, but understanding the super system is still a complex process, so imagine what it's like for those people who have English as a second or third language. It's extraordinarily difficult.</para>
<para>The Arnhem Land Progress Aboriginal Corporation's chief executive, Alastair King, has rightly said that the superannuation industry really needs to lift its game for people living in remote regions. In areas where internet access is poor or basically non-existent, it can be incredibly difficult to access this sort of information. Most people don't even know where to start looking for their lost super funds or even know they had superannuation funds they could rollover or access. The superannuation system has been pretty slow in adopting strategies that protect vulnerable customers. That's why this side of the house needs to keep you guys accountable.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Newstart Allowance</title>
          <page.no>73</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert has advised me that she is splitting her time between herself and Senator Steele-John.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Families and Social Services (Senator Ruston) to a question asked by Senator Siewert today relating to the Newstart allowance.</para></quote>
<para>I asked three questions, none of which the minister could properly address. I asked her why the government continues to call Newstart a 'transition payment' when the average length of time on the payment is three years. It's clearly not a transition payment, so I'd say that myth about Newstart is busted.</para>
<para>I also asked the minister about older Australians on Newstart. Today it was reported that the Prime Minister said that if he were to increase any payment, it would be the age pension. And we have the ridiculous situation where we have someone at 64 living on $287.90 less than someone on the age pension at 65½, for example. That is ridiculous. Newstart needs to be increased If the Prime Minister, Mr Morrison, cared about older Australians, he would realise that being stuck on Newstart is harming those very older Australians that he professes to care about.</para>
<para>My last question was whether the minister could live on Newstart, not only with already having paid the rent but also with the energy supplement, because the one thing that the government keeps saying is that people on Newstart—this is another myth—get all these other payments, so they don't need a rise in Newstart. Could the minister live on $17.65? She couldn't answer that question, because, of course, she knows she can't. She said, 'It wasn't meant to be easy.' She said in her answers, 'It's not meant to be a salary; it's a safety net.' It's not a safety net; it just drops people straight through. Of course she can't live on it, because nobody can live on it. We need to raise Newstart. It needs to happen immediately. It needs to be raised by at least $75 a week.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Disability Services</title>
          <page.no>73</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Families and Social Services (Senator Ruston) to questions without notice asked by Senator Steele-John today in relation to the appointment of Commissioners Ryan and Bennett to the disability abuse royal commission.</para></quote>
<para>That was no answer at all. Three questions I posed to the minister: could she understand our frustration, could she see why we felt like we were being made to disclose to our abusers, and would the government listen to the united calls of the disability community—and now the united voice of the Senate—and call on these commissioners to resign? What was the answer? 'Oh, they're very eminent individuals. They have AOs, they have PSMs.' Well, that is no answer at all. I would remind the chamber that there are many eminent people throughout history. I believe Rolf Harris is one who could claim the Order of Australia. It goes nowhere near addressing as respectfully as should be done the legitimate concerns of the disability community in relation to this matter.</para>
<para>I know that it is difficult for any government to admit they made a mistake. Genuinely, I understand what a difficult thing that is to pull off, but you have made a mistake here and you are putting at risk what would otherwise be one of the only legacies for which I would credit part of this government—that being the royal commission.</para>
<para>I ask the chamber: have disabled people not suffered enough? Have we not fought long enough? Can this government not grant us this small moment of justice and victory? I beseech you in the deepest and most heartfelt terms to listen to disabled people, to take on board the message that we are sending to you and to work with us to replace these commissioners.</para>
<para>Finally, I would like to speak directly to Barbara Bennett and John Ryan this afternoon. I know that this must have been a difficult 24 hours and I know that you will be feeling hurt and shock, like you have been treated wrongly, but let me tell you: this isn't about how you feel; this is about our ability to trust this commission. Please do the right thing and resign. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>74</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>74</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">   That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The routine of business for the remainder of the day be consideration of government business only.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Divisions may take place after 4.30 pm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The Senate shall adjourn without debate after it has completed consideration of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and a related bill, including any message from the House of Representatives, or a motion for the adjournment is moved by a minister, whichever is the earlier.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This legislation has been four years in the making—four years! And then here you go, coming in and disrupting the business of this Senate and preventing us from scrutinising things, like important government documents, in order to jam it through as quickly as possible. There is no need for this unseemly rush. It's poor legislation anyway and, in fact, the government should have supported it being referred to a Senate inquiry so that we could make appropriate inquiries and recommendations on it. The Greens do not support this motion.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would like to advise the chamber that we will be supporting this motion, but I want to make the point that this legislation has been known to the government since the UK introduced their scheme in 2015. The government waited four years to bring this scheme in. They announced it in November, they put it forward in February, they sent it off to the committee, the committee reported back in April and here we are in July, finally debating this legislation after four years.</para>
<para>This week the government prioritised a drought fund bill ahead of this legislation. They pushed that through the House ahead of this legislation. This legislation could have been in the Senate much earlier this week. This legislation that they say is an imperative—that it is a policy imperative and an operational imperative that we have this legislation passed—could have been done earlier this week. But they put forward a drought fund bill. I'm not saying drought and helping our farmers aren't important, but that drought fund doesn't start for two years. This, they say, is important. The drought fund doesn't start for two years, but that was their priority. The opposition will be supporting this hours motion, because we don't want to leave here this week without this legislation passing the parliament. That's why we're supporting this motion. But I want it on the record that the government has had four years and had plenty of time this week, and it didn't get it done. We want to make sure it gets done before we leave Canberra this week. That's why we're supporting this motion.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>74</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019, Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>74</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" style="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core">
            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6361">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="r6362">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>74</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The committee is considering the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 and a related bill. The question is that the bills stand as printed.</para>
<para class="italic"><inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, we were talking about reviews just prior to question time. It's clear that the review authority has all of those restrictions that you mentioned in your answer to me. Section 14 sets out the things that the review authority can consider. They are restrictive in some nature, and I understand your logic; you say that that process is to be quick. Leaving that alone, and noting the Administrative Decisions (Judicial Review) Act is carved out as a pathway, that leaves two methods by which to bring an action to the Federal Court. One is through section 39 of the Judiciary Act, and the other is through section 75 of the Constitution. If it were to go to a judicial review—so not the review authority—is it a matter considered to be in the original jurisdiction of the court as opposed to the appeals jurisdiction?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I gave you two choices. Is it in the original jurisdiction of the court, noting that there haven't been any sorts of judicial proceedings to that point, or is it in the appeals division of the court?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That was what I thought you'd asked me. It is in the original jurisdiction. If your questions were a little more concise, perhaps it would be a little easier to answer them.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If it's in the original jurisdiction, Minister, of any court, you can bring in new evidence before the court. I listened to you, prior to the break, telling the chamber that you can't review on a question of fact. The whole point of the original jurisdiction is that you appeal and you have all facts laid out by way of affidavit and other methods to bring information before the court. Only in an appellant jurisdiction do you restrict the appeal to a point of law. So there's something not quite right here. Can you perhaps clear the air, please?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, I would refer you to my previous extended answers on your very laborious questions going round and round on the same issue. But I can confirm again that there are no changes to the Evidence Act.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, we can stay here all night; there is no restriction on what's going to happen tonight. It's a simple question. I'm not asking about the Evidence Act; if you say that it is in the original jurisdiction, by definition that means you can introduce evidence to a court—which basically is a way of introducing facts to the court. So there's a difference in what you've told the Senate this morning, or previously, and what you're telling it now. There's an inconsistency in that. I'm just asking you to clarify that, please.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, you can keep asking the same question over and over again in many creative ways, but the Evidence Act still applies, and if people have evidence they want to put that supports their case, of course they can do so.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So that implies you can bring new facts to the table; that's the fundamental point of my question. You might recall I gave an example of a situation where perhaps a mistake had been made by ASIO. In order to initiate a TEO, we have got to have some sort of brief before the minister. My concern is that, at the next stage, the brief is not tested. You can shrug your shoulders, Minister, but there might be someone innocent caught up in this, and we need to be very respectful of the manner in which we treat citizens who may well have been subject to false intelligence. I don't mind if we take someone who is a terrorist and we deal with them as suggested by the act. My only concern here is that when ASIO presents information that is flawed in some way, it needs to be tested at some stage along the way. In the original jurisdiction of a court, that can be tested. You said that it's in the original jurisdiction but then you said it can't be appealed on a question of fact. So there's an inconsistency in your answer and I'm trying to get to that inconsistency. Can you please help me out, Minister?</para>
<para>I will move to section 30 of the bill. Section 30 does raise issues of constitutionality because it states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">If section 14 is not a valid law of the Commonwealth—</para></quote>
<para>So there is some doubt as to whether it is constitutional, then—</para>
<quote><para class="block">(a) it is Parliament’s intention that this Act operate as if that 26 section had never been enacted; …</para></quote>
<para>In effect, what that does is remove the review authority's role in this process. Is that the correct understanding of how that provision works?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, the question to officials and me was not very clear in that sort of rather expanded question. Can you just be very clear about what your question actually is so I don't mislead you?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Certainly, Minister. In the event that section 14 is found to be invalid in the act as it's constructed, does that mean that the review authority process no longer takes place?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that clarification, Senator Patrick. That is clearly a hypothetical question which, as I've said, I'm not in a position to answer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, it says, 'If section 14 is not a valid law of the Commonwealth.'</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>'If'! There's a hypothetical in your bill!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's a hypothetical in your bill, Minister—seriously! I'm trying to deal with that situation. It's the drafters that have proposed that possibility. I'm asking: what happens in the event of that possibility?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for that further clarification. The answer then would be, yes, that that is the impact of the section.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to be clear, in those circumstances a TEO would then be issued without a review by a review authority. I presume that then means the only avenue of review remains the judicial review; is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. That is correct.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the Commonwealth considered, or does the advice that's been provided by the Solicitor-General go to, the constitutionality of having a decision made without any form of administrative review?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government has clear advice that this legislation is constitutional.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I also have a question on matters relating to the review authority. I'm not talking about the judicial review here; I'm asking about the review authority. Can you confirm that the only decision that will be reviewed by the reviewing authority will be the making of a TEO? And can you confirm that that means that if the minister varies a TEO, that will not go to the reviewing authority?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can confirm that the reviewing authority will provide independent oversight of the minister's decision to make a TEO against a person in that initial decision, and, immediately after making a TEO, the minister must refer the decision to that reviewing authority. If the reviewing authority finds that the minister's decision is unlawful, the TEO is taken to never have been made.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you; that's answered the first part of my question. I'll just put the second part again: can you confirm that if the minister varies an existing TEO, that will not go to the reviewing authority? Is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, that is correct. The variation is not subject.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What is the public policy reason for that?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, if you can indulge me, I'm just getting advice on that particular point and I will come back to you shortly—I've just had some clarification from the officials. The Minister cannot vary the TEO once it's been issued.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I appreciate that. So who can vary a TEO? Or can a TEO not be varied?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It cannot be varied. It can only be revoked.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If I may, perhaps to assist Senator McKim, perhaps this question does also go to return permits and the conditions that can be put on a return permit. Those can be varied—correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To follow on from that—I think this is what Senator McKim may be trying to get to—the making or issuing of a return permit and the conditions upon it are not reviewed by the reviewing authority—is that correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's correct.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—In respect of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019, I move amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 8693 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 10), after the heading specifying <inline font-style="italic">Intelligence Services Act 2001</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1B Paragraph 29(1 ) ( a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After "to review the", insert "activities,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, page 3 (after line 19), at the end of the Schedule, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Subsection 29(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The functions of the Committee do not include:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) reviewing information provided by, or by an agency of, a foreign government where that government does not consent to the disclosure of the information; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) conducting inquiries into individual complaints about the activities of ASIO, ASIS, AGO, DIO, ASD, ONI, AFP or the Immigration and Border Protection Department.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4 After section 29</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29A Ceasing or suspending review of agency activities</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Committee undertakes a review under section 29 of an activity by ASIO, ASIS, AGO, DIO, ASD or ONI; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the relevant responsible Minister is of the opinion that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) the activity is an ongoing operation; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the review would interfere with the proper performance by the relevant body of its functions or otherwise prejudice Australia's national security or the conduct of Australia's foreign relations;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the Minister may give to the Committee a certificate in relation to the matter stating the Minister's opinion and the reasons for it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A decision of the Minister under subsection (1) must not be questioned in any court or tribunal.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Where the Minister gives a certificate under subsection (1) in relation to a review, the Committee must cease or suspend the review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) If the Minister:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) becomes aware that the activity is no longer ongoing; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) is no longer of the opinion that the review would interfere with the proper performance by the relevant body of its functions or otherwise prejudice Australia's national security or the conduct of Australia's foreign relations;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the Minister must, within 28 days after becoming aware of the fact or forming the view:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) revoke the certificate; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) inform the Committee in writing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) If the Minister revokes a certificate in accordance with subsection (4), the Committee may proceed with the review, or commence a new review into the activity.</para></quote>
<para>As I observed in my speech on the second reading, notwithstanding its extraordinary nature the bill before the Senate is part of a well-established pattern. The measures before the Senate today are but another instalment in the steady stream of national security legislation that has come before the parliament over the last two decades. Much of it was spurred on by September 11. Much of this legislation, advanced by both coalition and Labor governments and almost always with bipartisan support, has expanded the powers of our intelligence and security agencies. I might point out that many of the powers that are used by these agencies are used in secret. The agencies themselves have also expanded greatly in size, budget and the scope of their activities. Australia's 10 national security and intelligence agencies now employ more than 7,000 people and spend well over $2 billion each year while they accumulate massive amounts of information at home and abroad.</para>
<para>However, while Australia's intelligence community has grown rapidly over the past two decades, the mechanisms of accountability and review, in terms of overseeing those agencies, have received much less attention, fewer resources and less authority. This is especially the case with the parliament's own scrutiny machine. That vital scrutiny role remains strictly limited. Specifically, the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security, the PJCIS, is tightly restricted under the Intelligence Services Act 2001 to review only administrative and financial aspects of Australia's intelligence and security agencies. The PJCIS is explicitly prohibited from reviewing the operations of the Australian intelligence agencies. The PJCIS is further restricted in reviewing intelligence-gathering priorities and the operation of Australian intelligence agencies or the assessments and reports they produce. The committee is barred from examining operational activities and methods or any operations that have been, are being or are proposed to be undertaken by intelligence and national security services. The PJCIS is also prohibited from reviewing the privacy rules made by ministers that regulate the communication and retention by agencies of intelligence information concerning Australian persons.</para>
<para>These limitations on parliamentary scrutiny have reflected a historical reluctance of past governments and intelligence agencies to trust members of parliament outside the executive with the most sensitive intelligence information. However, the PJCIS can't hold these agencies properly accountable for their activities if parliament continues to ban its own committees from reviewing their operations and other activities, nor can expenditure and administration be adequately examined without consideration of operational performance. They go together.</para>
<para>The exclusion of intelligence operations from parliamentary scrutiny is not an approach followed by some of Australia's closest allies. Indeed, Australian practice now stands in stark contrast to parliamentary oversight arrangements in the other Five Eyes countries—the United States, the United Kingdom, New Zealand and Canada. In the United States, congressional oversight of the intelligence community is spread across several committees, including specialised committees on intelligence in the House of Representatives and the Senate. Those committees have long enjoyed the ability to inquire into all intelligence related activities of the United States government, including highly sensitive operational matters. Wide-ranging congressional inquiries are accepted by the US intelligence community as necessary and appropriate. Oversight is not something to be feared; it's something that can assist.</para>
<para>In the United Kingdom, the Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament is empowered by the Justice and Security Act 2013 to oversee the expenditure, administration, policy and operations of the Security Service, the Secret Intelligence Service and the Government Communications Headquarters. The British Intelligence and Security Committee of Parliament can consider operational matters when requested by the Prime Minister where they do not involve ongoing operations and it is in the national interest.</para>
<para>Canada is another one of our Five Eyes intelligence partners, and has an intelligence and national security community in size and structure not dissimilar to what we have. Under section 8 of Canada's National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians Act 2017, the Canadian parliament's intelligence committee can review:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… any activity carried out by a department that relates to national security or intelligence, unless the activity is an ongoing operation and the appropriate Minister determines that the review would be injurious to national security; …</para></quote>
<para>The Canadian legislation further provides:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) If the appropriate Minister determines that a review would be injurious to national security, he or she must inform the Committee of his or her determination and the reasons for it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Review no longer injurious</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If the appropriate Minister determines that the review would no longer be injurious to national security or if the appropriate Minister is informed that the activity is no longer ongoing, he or she must inform the Committee that the review may be conducted.</para></quote>
<para>The approach taken by the new Canadian National Security and Intelligence Committee of Parliamentarians provides a good model for Australia to follow. Centre Alliance has already proposed legislation to implement the Canadian model for parliamentary scrutiny of the intelligence communities through the Intelligence Services Amendment (Enhanced Parliamentary Oversight of Intelligence Agencies) Bill 2018.</para>
<para>Last year, the Labor opposition observed that Centre Alliance's bill: 'Contains a number of interesting and innovative measures. Labor believes these measures merit further consideration.' Centre Alliance has now circulated an amendment to the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) Bill 2019 that again seeks to expand the role of the PJCIS in a way most closely modelled on that of the Canadian parliament. The amendment will amend the Intelligence Services Act to remove most, although not all, the current legislative constraints on the scope of the PJCIS's inquiries, and would allow the committee to review the operational performance of our intelligence agencies—a vital aspect of any effective scrutiny regime. The proposed amendment to the role of the PJCIS does retain existing prohibitions on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… reviewing information provided by, or by an agency of, a foreign government where that government does not consent to the disclosure of the information; …</para></quote>
<para>It also retains the prohibition on conducting inquiries into individual complaints about the activities of designated intelligence and national security agencies, as those complaints are appropriately dealt with by the Inspector-General of Intelligence and Security.</para>
<para>There are details of intelligence operations involving sensitive and vulnerable sources that are best held by the smallest number of people with an absolute need to know. Accordingly, the amendment provides that the relevant minister may certify that a review of the PJCIS that relates to an ongoing operation, and where the review would interfere with the proper performance of the relevant body of its function or otherwise prejudice Australia's national security or the conduct of Australia's foreign relations—if this is the case—then the committee will be required to cease or suspend the review. And:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(4) If the Minister:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (a) becomes aware that the activity is no longer ongoing; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (b) is no longer of the opinion that the review would interfere with the proper performance by the relevant body of its functions or otherwise prejudice Australia’s national security or the conduct of Australia’s foreign relations;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the Minister must, within 28 days after becoming aware of the fact or forming the view:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (c) revoke the certificate; …</para></quote>
<para>If the minister revokes the certificate, the committee would be free to proceed with the review or commence a new review into the activity. This is effectively the Canadian method. It allows for the PJCIS to review intelligence operations. Should the minister have a concern about a particular sensitivity, the minister can issue a certificate but then must advise the committee once that particular ongoing operation is no longer taking place.</para>
<para>The need for the expansion of the PJCIS's role to cover intelligence agency operations and other activities has long been recognised in the Senate. Former senator John Faulkner strongly urged this broad reform. The Leader of the Opposition in the Senate has expressed in-principle support for broadening the PJCIS's mandate. There is, indeed, a vital principle involved here: if democratically elected MPs and senators cannot be trusted to deal directly with these questions then something is wrong with the relationship between the intelligence communities and the parliament that they ultimately mean to serve.</para>
<para>Centre Alliance has previously moved provisions contained in this amendment to other national security and intelligence related bills. On those occasions, the coalition and Labor were not prepared to lend their support, even though the opposition has indicated in-principle support for the extension of the PJCIS oversight to include operational matters. The government for its part announced in May last year the appointment of Dennis Richardson, a former director-general of security, to review Australia's intelligence and national security legislation. This is the latest in a long series of government reviews largely conducted by former intelligence and national security bureaucrats who, at least previously, have had little enthusiasm for parliamentary scrutiny of the intelligence community. However, as Senator Wong has rightly observed, the parliament cannot outsource the question of its own responsibilities in overseeing our large and expanding intelligence and national security services. Enhanced parliamentary scrutiny is very definitely in our national interest. Australia's intelligence communities are not infallible.</para>
<para>In the future, their performance will be tested in much more demanding security environments, and the Australian parliament will need to subject the performance of our intelligence agencies to much closer scrutiny than has been the case previously. This amendment provides a sensible and secure framework within which to extend parliamentary scrutiny through the established mechanisms of the PJCIS. It is a very necessary counterpoint to the further expansion of ASIO powers proposed in the legislation before the Senate today, and I commend the amendment to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the amendment circulated by Senator Patrick. The Labor Party will not be supporting this amendment, but I would like to make a couple of comments regarding the intent of the amendment and the measures put forward by Senator Patrick. He makes the point, of course, that the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security is the primary mechanism for parliamentary oversight of the intelligence committee but that the committee is currently constrained by its enabling legislation. As Senator Patrick rightly points out, it cannot review a range of issues, including intelligence gathering and assessment priorities, sources and methods, particular operations and investigations, information provided by a foreign government, individual complaints about the activities of intelligence services, anything that does not affect an Australian person, or assessments or reports made by intelligence agencies. Of course, we also know from the way this bill has passed through the parliament today that it will not be able to receive the Independent National Security Legislation Monitor's reports at the same time they're provided to the minister or to be briefed by the National Security Legislation Monitor on those reports.</para>
<para>Senator Patrick is seeking to adapt the model of the Canadian parliamentary oversight legislation to extend the function of the PJCIS. I won't go through the various ways that his amendment seeks to do that. I do say that the opposition thinks there is some merit in the proposals that Senator Patrick is putting forward. The work and the structure of the intelligence community have changed considerably in recent years, and yet our oversight structures here in Australia have not changed with them.</para>
<para>Passing this amendment here today would not be a complete reform approach. There are things that should be considered, such as how expanding the remit of the PJCIS would have effects on its resourcing and also its membership. We think an inquiry would allow these matters to be determined. And thus, whilst I can't say here today that we would support all of the aspects of the amendments, we think there are many that deserve consideration. We would prefer that these matters be dealt with in a private member's bill and that that private member's bill be able to go to a committee.</para>
<para>The chamber would be well aware that this amendment moved by Senator Patrick today has some similarities to the well-known Faulkner bill—I think it has been the Faulkner bill, the Wong bill, and is currently the McAllister bill—I intend to leave it with Senator McAllister—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Patrick</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I hope it turns into an act!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I would like that. We could call it the 'McAllister Act', Senator Patrick, if you like, or perhaps the 'McAllister-Patrick Act'. However, I do note that many of those Faulkner reforms have since been picked up in recommendations of the independent review of the Australian intelligence community commissioned by Malcolm Turnbull in 2016. Whilst this amendment moved by Senator Patrick is not the Faulkner bill, it is complementary to it; they approach different aspects of the need to rethink and reform the PJCIS statutory framework.</para>
<para>I just wanted to put that on record: we're not supporting this, because we think this would be more properly dealt with by a private member's bill. We think there are aspects we would support, aspects we might seek to change. We would look forward to working with Senator Patrick and other members of this chamber in order to bring that forward as a bill, and then potentially referral to committee, where these things could be considered.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will just make a short response to that. I do note that we now have the Labor Party, which doesn't agree with the main bill but will vote for it, agreeing with our amendment, but it won't vote for that. But, thank you very much. I note the remarks that you've put on record, and I will hold you to them, Senator Keneally. Thank you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If I may just respond: the imperatives of the temporary exclusion order legislation are far more pressing than the imperatives of your amendment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm glad that Senator Patrick has finally understood the modern Labor Party! But to Senator Keneally: like Senator Patrick, I do thank her for that constructive contribution. It didn't escape my notice that you included membership of the committee in the things that the ALP may be willing to consider. Of course that's the matter that our amendment, which we'll shortly debate, deals with.</para>
<para>But with regard to Senator Patrick's amendment, I'm pretty bored of saying this but I'll say it again: in the last 20 years, there have been more than 200 pieces of legislation in this country that have overridden fundamental rights, freedoms and liberties. We remain the only liberal democracy in the world that does not have a charter of rights or a bill of rights to protect our citizens' rights. This legislation, brought in by the government, supported by the Labor Party, sets up a minister as judge and jury. It undermines the rule of law. It sidelines our judicial system. On that basis, I think it's highly likely to be found to be unconstitutional, so I do predict that this bill will go down in the High Court at some stage. But, for the reasons that we are seeing this ongoing erosion of rights and freedoms and the slow march down the very dark and dangerous road to a police state in this country, we need to make sure oversight provisions are strengthened. Senator Patrick's amendments do that, and on that basis they will be supported by the Greens.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>009FX</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 8693, as moved by Senator Patrick, be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [16:19]<br />(The Temporary Chair—Senator Askew)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>11</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Griff, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>42</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In respect of the Counter-Terrorism (Temporary Exclusion Orders) (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019, I move amendment (1) on sheet 8719 standing in my name:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 3 (before line 11), before item 2, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2A Subsection 28(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Committee is to consist of 11 members, 5 of whom must be the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a Government member of the House of Representatives;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an Opposition member of the House of Representatives;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a Government Senator;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) an Opposition Senator;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) a Senator who is not a Government or Opposition Senator.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2A) The other Committee members may be either Senators or members of the House of Representatives.</para></quote>
<para>These amendments, importantly, would provide for crossbench membership on the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security and help that committee to do its job, to scrutinise the ongoing march of this country down the road to a police state.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're not going to support this amendment!</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Neither are we!</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>009FX</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 8719, moved by Senator McKim, be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Committee divided. [16:28]<br />(The Temporary Chair—Senator Askew)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>41</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.<br />Bills agreed to.<br />Bills reported without amendments; report adopted.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>82</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a third time.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 16:33</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>