
<hansard version="2.2" noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd">
  <session.header>
    <date>2017-02-16</date>
    <parliament.no>45</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>2</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
      <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:WX="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;"></span>
            <a type="" href="Chamber">Thursday, 16 February 2017</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Stephen Parry)</span> took the chair at 09:30, read prayers and made an acknowledgement of country.</span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Law Enforcement Committee</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Questions on Notice</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In accordance with the resolution of the Senate, I provide information in relation to responses to three categories of questions taken on notice, or, in the third case, documents ordered to be produced. The notice lists in paragraph (a) 57 questions on notice. I can advise the Senate that, of the 57 questions taken on notice by me, either in my own capacity as the Attorney or as minister representing the Prime Minister and the foreign minister, 45 of the questions asked of me in my capacity as the minister representing the Prime Minister have been tabled, three questions asked of me in my capacity as the minister representing the foreign minister have been tabled and nine questions are awaiting a response.</para>
<para>In relation to the answers referred to in paragraph (b), 139 questions were taken on notice by me at the supplementary budget estimates, including the spillover day in December. Two of those questions have been withdrawn. Of the 137 relevant questions, answers to 103 have been tabled; 34 are awaiting response. In relation to the documents referred to in paragraph (c) of the resolution, all of those documents have been produced.</para>
<para>I will make a couple of observations about the compliance with these orders. My officers have checked the statistics very carefully. Both I personally and ministers in this government generally have a much better record for timely compliance with the time limit for responding to questions taken on notice than was the case for ministers under the previous Labor government. It is, I think, understood as a matter of common sense that on occasions, particularly with long and complex questions which involve departments assembling a large body of material, not always will the time limits be able to be met. But of course a best endeavours attempt to meet the times limited should be made and it is made.</para>
<para>The other observation I would make to you, Mr President, is that, in particular in relation to questions taken on notice at estimates hearings, there is an expectation and a custom that those answers should be provided in a sufficiently timely manner in advance of the ensuing estimates hearing, so that senators pursuing matters of interest to them in estimates will have plenty of opportunity to consider those answers before the ensuing estimates hearing. In this case, the vast majority of the questions taken on notice at the supplementary estimates, including the spillover date, have been tabled a fortnight before the next estimates round.</para>
<para>There is absolutely no comparison whatsoever between this government's and my compliance with that obligation and the default of compliance which we well remember during the time of the previous Labor government. Mr President, as you know, during the time of the previous Labor government, I was the shadow Attorney-General, and the Attorney-General's portfolio was represented in this place by Senator Ludwig. It was the most common thing in the world for the answers to questions taken on notice at previous estimates rounds to be tabled in bulk the night before that estimates round or on the morning or not at all. It was the most commonplace thing in the world for that to be done. It was the standard procedure.</para>
<para>I was not the shadow minister for the finance portfolio, but I have taken out the statistics of Senator Wong's compliance with her obligations when she was the finance minister. Since Senator Wong tabled this motion and I anticipate she will be the Labor Party spokesman on the matter, this was Senator Wong's record: of the 975 questions that Senator Wong took on notice in the relevant period, 772, or 79 per cent, were late; 221, or 23 per cent, were late by over two months; 179, or 18 per cent, were actually answered after the ensuing estimates round had begun; and 16, or two per cent, were never answered or were answered after the ensuing estimates round was over.</para>
<para>I anticipate that Senator Wong, having made such a song and dance about this matter with the resolution that she has tabled, is going to say that there has been default of compliance by me, to which the answer is twofold. Firstly, there has been substantial compliance and, secondly, the extent and sufficiency of compliance has been vastly better than was Senator Wong's when she was the respondent to questions asked in estimates rounds.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the Attorney-General's explanation.</para></quote>
<para>I am sorry to disappoint the Attorney-General, but Senator Wong is not speaking on this motion. Instead, I am very happy to do so myself. I am a very big fan of the Attorney-General's work, so I am always happy to speak on him. I am not sure about other members of this chamber, but over the Christmas break I certainly reflected on the past year and made a number of New Year's resolutions. I suspect many other people in this chamber did the same thing. But it would appear that there is one person in this chamber who did not make a New Year's resolution to become a better person, and that person is the Attorney-General, Senator Brandis.</para>
<para>Any of us who were here last year in 2016 will remember the series of scandals involving the Attorney-General and the continued contempt that he displayed towards this chamber, towards his role as first law officer and towards the people of Australia in general. Time does not permit me to go through every example, but there were the scandals involving his treatment of the Solicitor-General, his treatment of the president of the Human Rights Commission and his involvement in the Bell litigation scandal. So I really thought that over the Christmas break Senator Brandis would reflect on himself and come back as a different person, determined to improve his behaviour, but it would appear that the answer to that is: no, there was no reflection and there was no resolution to be better.</para>
<para>Only a week or two ago we saw media reports that Senator Brandis has still not complied with an order of the Federal Court of Australia, which he oversees, to produce his diary. So we see continued secrecy and contempt not just for the people but potentially of the court system of Australia in relation to his diary. As of I think earlier this week—possibly even yesterday—he had still not complied with an order of the Senate to produce documents in relation to the Bell litigation. That has finally occurred, and as of last week he had an incredible 205 answers to questions on notice which were still outstanding, some going back as far as the estimates held in February last year, more than 12 months ago. Members on my side will know that I am also not a very big fan of the minister for immigration, Peter Dutton. But I will at least give him credit for the fact that he only has three answers to questions on notice outstanding, in comparison to the Attorney-General's 205.</para>
<para>I do acknowledge that the Attorney-General has now finally tabled some answers to those questions on notice. Of course, that was only in response to the motion that we moved, and you really would not think that the Senate would have to take this step to move a motion to get answers to questions on notice. However, despite the Attorney-General's attempts, there are still a number of questions on notice that senators have asked of him that remain unanswered, most particularly the questions that were asked about the dodgy appointments he made to the Administrative Appeals Tribunal last year. Mysteriously, he still does not want to tell the Senate about the background to those appointments of LNP cronies.</para>
<para>I really would expect better of the first law officer of Australia. It is a role from which we expect the utmost integrity and fulfilment of the law. Unfortunately, this year appears to be a reflection of last year, where we instead have an Attorney-General with complete contempt for the Senate and complete contempt for the law. It is no wonder that his colleagues still continue to talk about how soon it will be before he goes to London.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>2</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>2</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017, the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017 and the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2017 have precedence over all government business until determined.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) General business order of the day no. 38 (Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017) be considered under the order relating to private senators’ bills for not more than 1 hour and 20 minutes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If by 2 pm today, the bills listed in paragraph (1) as well as the Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017, have not been finally considered:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the hours of meeting shall be 9.30 am to adjournment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) consideration of committee reports, government responses and Auditor-General's reports shall not be proceeded with;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the routine of business from not later than 6 pm shall be government business only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) divisions may take place after 4.30 pm; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the Senate shall adjourn without debate after it has finally considered the bills listed above, or a motion for the adjournment is moved by a minister, whichever is the earlier.</para></quote>
<para>I take the opportunity to thank colleagues across the chamber for their cooperation yesterday, which saw us conclude some business at a reasonable hour, and I also thank colleagues for what I anticipate will be cooperation with the proposition that is before the chamber in this motion.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>3</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>3</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1052">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>3</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BURSTON</name>
    <name.id>207807</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We in Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party regard freedom of speech as a fundamental human right, even though there is no formal recognition of the right in our legal system. Last week at a rally for medical cannabis on the lawn in front of Parliament House, Senator Hanson was described as Australia's favourite racist. Of course, anyone who knows Senator Hanson knows she is not racist. It is offensive to call someone a racist, especially if it is not true. But the right to free speech is more important, in my opinion, than any personal offence that might be taken by describing someone as a racist. Senator Hanson may object to a person describing her as a racist, but she will never deny the person the right to say what they think.</para>
<para>Although I support the right to freedom of speech, I am conscious of the fact that such a right is not formally recognised in law. The most Australians can say about protecting freedom of speech is that the High Court has ruled that we have the right to freedom of speech in government and political communication. In other words, ridiculing politicians and speaking contemptuously of them is acceptable in a political context, but the use of offensive words is not otherwise protected in Australian law. There is no free speech act, for example, and the only individual rights protected by Australia's Constitution are the right to freedom of religion and the right to a trial by jury for certain criminal offences under Commonwealth law.</para>
<para>The original draft of Australia's Constitution prepared by Tasmania's Attorney-General Inglis Clark included about a dozen individual rights taken from the United States Bill of Rights, including the right to freedom of speech. Only two rights survived the constitutional convention of 1898 in Melbourne—the right to freedom of religion; and the right to a trial by jury for certain criminal offences, as I mentioned. The problem with trying to assert rights such as freedom of speech in 1898 was that our founding fathers wanted to be free to discriminate against Aboriginal people, and the Chinese working in the goldfields. Now, that was racist. We have no fundamental right to free speech in our legal system because of the discrimination practised by our ancestors.</para>
<para>I suggested earlier in this speech that the Labor Party made a very poor attempt at fixing this deficiency in the legal system in 1985, when the Hawke government passed the Australian Bill of Rights Bill in the House of Representatives, along with the Australian Human Rights Commission Bill. They were companion bills, and the plan was that the Human Rights Commission would be the enforcement mechanism for Australia's bill of rights. The Bill of Rights Bill stalled in the Senate when the Western Australian Premier, Brian Burke, told Prime Minister Hawke that there would be no money for the Labor Party from the west if the Bill of Rights Bill became law. In 1986, the Human Rights Commission Bill became law, but the commission was always a shadow of its former self once the Labor Party killed off the bill of rights, contrary to Labor policy. This bill will facilitate early assessment of unmeritorious complaints to the Human Rights Commission.</para>
<para>Just as Labor did in 1986 when it frustrated the right to freedom of speech in Australia's stillborn bill of rights, Labor is still trying to suppress freedom of speech in Australia. Labor say they support individual rights and freedoms, but they deny the right to freedom of speech every chance they get. Labor and the Greens say we need to be protected from tyrannical governments, but that can be done only with a bill of rights which is a line in the sand between people on one side and the executive, the legislature and the judiciary on the other. A bill of rights is about the rights of people to take a stand against government. Whenever I am reminded that Australia is the only common-law country in the world that does not have a bill of rights, I am also reminded that the Australian Labor Party pass up every chance they get to promote human rights, including the right to freedom of speech, which is fundamental to the bill before the Senate.</para>
<para>Some people say that we already have a bill of rights in Australia. They are referring to the English Bill of Rights of 1689, which sets out certain rights of individuals, and parliamentary rights including the right to free speech in parliament. The English Bill of Rights still applies in the realms, including Australia, to the extent that it has not been overridden by inconsistent later law. I believe the only provision of the English Bill of Rights which still applies in Australia is article 9, which guarantees free speech in parliament. So politicians enjoy the right to free speech in the form of parliamentary privilege, but the same privilege is not extended to ordinary citizens who need to be very careful what they say in case they fall foul of the Human Rights Commission.</para>
<para>I must say I was unaware of the dangers of falling foul of the Human Rights Commission and the race laws until the case of Eatock v Bolt in the Federal Court, a case in which two articles written by Mr Bolt were found to contravene the racial vilification provisions of the Racial Discrimination Act. The court said the articles were reasonably likely to offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate the plaintiffs. What is not so well known about the case is that the plaintiffs had a perfectly good cause of action in defamation against Mr Bolt, but they chose instead to sue under the race laws in order to send a so-called message to the community. The community responded by saying that, if freedom of speech is so fragile in Australia as to be put aside to accommodate personal feelings of identity and self-worth, then we should think about changing the law.</para>
<para>Currently the Joint Parliamentary Committee on Human Rights is looking at the race laws, as well as the way the Australian Human Rights Commission deals with complaints about discrimination and allegations of human rights violations. A number of high-profile cases since Eatock v Bolt have focused public attention on the race laws, including the failed case against cartoonist Bill Leak and the failed case against three students at Queensland University of Technology. At a hearing before the parliamentary committee in Brisbane last week, Tony Morris QC, the lawyer acting for the three university students, said that his clients had to pay unjust compensation and legal fees to avoid a process biased against them. One student is trying to raise $41,000—yes, $41,000—to pay legal bills.</para>
<para>The number of submissions to the parliamentary inquiry expressing concern about unmeritorious complaints to the Human Rights Commission was a surprise to me. Eminent jurists suggesting early intervention to terminate complaints without merit include Justice Ronald Sackville AO, QC; and Professor Anne Twomey, of the University of Sydney. In Professor Twomey's submission to the inquiry, she said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It is not clear why the Commission should proceed to conciliate complaints of acts which the President is satisfied are not unlawful. Hence, it may be better to oblige the President to terminate the complaint once he or she reaches that state of satisfaction. Further, it might be of assistance to require the President, upon first receiving a complaint, to make an assessment as to whether the alleged act would, prima facie, appear to be unlawful, before proceeding to engage in the conciliation process.</para></quote>
<para>A former Australian Human Rights Commissioner, Dr Sev Ozdowski OAM, informed the committee that the complaints process at the Human Rights Commission is biased in favour of the complainant. The former commissioner spoke about people at the commission enforcing their vision of the world. The combined effect of running unmeritorious complaints and promoting agendas brings the law into disrepute and damages the good work the commission otherwise undertakes. People who are the subject of serious discrimination are entitled to the protections of the law. The suffering caused by serious discrimination is abhorrent, and I would not like to see the law diminished for utilitarian purposes or sectional interests.</para>
<para>The Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017 has no impact on legitimate complaints to the commission and does not in any way diminish important protections for people who suffer serious discrimination. In fact, the bill has the opposite effect in that it extends the protections of the law to innocent respondents who currently are at risk of being dragged before the commission to answer spurious allegations and malicious attempts at character assassination. The defamation law in Australia is uniform and well settled and there is simply no need to run a case against a person in the Human Rights Commission that would not get past first base in the defamation courts for reasons of triviality, lack of evidence or the absence of good faith. Damage caused to a person by an unjust claim of discrimination cannot be justified in any circumstances. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am very pleased to be able to contribute to the debate on the Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017 today. I congratulate Senator Burston for bringing this bill before the parliament and highlighting an issue I think most Australians find incredible and a position most Australians believe could not happen in a country such as Australia. So, Senator Burston, thanks for bringing this forward.</para>
<para>I might diverge slightly to correct Senator Burston's colleague on a different matter. He said in the chamber the other day that I had congratulated him for bringing on a debate on climate change and that was the first time we had ever had a debate on climate change. That was not correct. As senators who have been here for a while know, we have had many a debate on climate change over the last 10 years and I am proud to say that I have been involved in most of them trying to expose the Greens for their hypocrisy in this as well as every other issue.</para>
<para>What I did say to Senator Roberts was that this was the first time we have had a real debate on the science behind climate change, an issue which I might say I never get involved in because I am not a scientist and I do not understand it. My issue has always been that Australia, which emits less than 1.4 per cent of the carbon emissions of the world, should do things when everyone else does but not lead the way, as the Labor Party and the Greens would have us do and destroy our economy and jobs of Australian workers at the same time. But that is a digression.</para>
<para>I do thank Senator Burston for raising this very important issue. The bill mirrors some of the matters raised by an eminent and philanthropic Queensland QC—Mr Tony Morris QC of the Queensland bar. He has written to the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee a couple of very erudite, very interesting and almost entertaining but very serious and important opinions on this and other issues relating to the Human Rights Commission. I thank Mr Morris for his generous intervention in the workings of this parliament with the advice that he has given. I might say in passing that, if the parliament had sought that advice in a commercial way, it would have probably cost the parliament between $10,000 and $20,000 for the quite detailed, well argued, well researched and well referenced opinion that Mr Morris gave.</para>
<para>Mr Morris is to be thanked not only for that but also, as I understand from media reports, for acting for several students that Senator Burston referred to in his address who simply would not have had the money to take on the outrageous claim that was made against them by an employee of the Queensland University of Technology. This is one of the problems with the justice system in our country. These three students simply could not have afforded the cost of solicitors, barristers and senior counsel to take on this issue. I understand from media reports that Mr Morris had made his services available to some of them without charge.</para>
<para>Again this whole human rights issue that is the subject of Senator Burston's bill is a salient reminder of the unfairness of this whole situation. I understand—and I am only going from what I recall of media reports—that one of the impecunious students named as a respondent, who eventually found out about it, did the thing that I think most people would do—just paid $5,000 in go-away money. He was not guilty and did not want to admit anything but was concerned that he might have been up for paying $250,000 if the action had been successful, so he did what most impecunious students would do and simply said: 'I've been told that if I give them $5,000 they will go away, so here's my $5,000 go-away money. I don't really have it. I'll have to work a lot longer at McDonald's or Red Rooster to make up the money. But here's the $5,000 because I can't simply afford the prospect of ending up with a judgement against me of $250,000.' Of course that was never likely to happen, but if you cannot afford good counsel you do that sort of thing and pay go-away money because you cannot afford to do anything else.</para>
<para>That is not directly relevant to this bill but is another issue that is a sad reflection on the way society is at the moment. I thank Mr Morris for his generosity not only in the advice that he has given to parliament but also in the generous work he did on behalf of some impecunious students who otherwise would not have been able to find a voice in the courts of our land.</para>
<para>Senator Burston's bill relates to a lot of issues which everyone would think were a matter of common sense. I think most people would be surprised to think that an amending bill or a new bill was needed, because Senator Burston's bill simply relates to what everyone would assume had happened. I have not correlated Senator Burston's bill to these facts, but I think the Human Rights Commissioner, Professor Triggs, intimated that what Senator Burston's bill is trying to do actually happened. I think she intimated that in one of her many appearances before the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee's estimates hearings.</para>
<para>At estimates, when public servants, those on the taxpayer funded payroll, are asked questions, they are required to answer them. Professor Triggs has on a number of occasions been asked questions—which are highlighted in Senator Burston's bill—about what she did in a preliminary way and what pre-investigations were undertaken before embarking upon the course of action the Human Rights Commission did or, it seems, did not do when it should have in the case of the QUT students. At the last estimates hearing Professor Triggs used the excuse, 'This is sub judice, so I can't talk about this to a Senate estimate committee.' As Mr Morris rightly pointed out in one of his opinions, whilst Professor Triggs found she could not talk to the Senate estimates committee about these issues—he observed that Professor Triggs repeatedly refused to discuss the QUT case in our committee—she had previously done so in other public forums such as, would you believe, the ABC current affairs program <inline font-style="italic">7.30</inline>. Her pretext to the Senate estimates committee was that, having talked about it publicly on <inline font-style="italic">The 7.30 Report</inline> on the ABC, she could not talk about it in the Senate because it might prejudice the case before the courts.</para>
<para>I thought Professor Triggs's interpretation of sub judice was a little bit wide, but then again I used to be a small town country lawyer some time ago. It has been a long time since I practised law, and I do not think I was ever much good anyhow. But Professor Triggs is supposedly a woman of very strong legal background, with a very comprehensive and recognised background in law, so who was I to argue with her? But I note that Mr Morris, who understands these things much better than I, said in a letter to the committee, which was taken as a submission and is public knowledge:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I feel compelled to inform you, and the Committee, that the explanation given by Professor Triggs for her refusal to answer questions concerning the QUT Case is arrant persiflage and falderal.</para></quote>
<para>I might say, like most other senators, I had to go to the dictionary to see what 'persiflage' and 'falderal' were. But, having seen the dictionary definition, I think Mr Morris is absolutely correct and precise. Mr Morris went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Had such an excuse been trotted out by a person without legal training or qualifications, it might (perhaps) be dismissed as a genuine misconception. But when a lawyer of the standing of Professor Triggs mouths such tendentious drivel—and does so, moreover, before a standing committee of the Upper House of the National Legislature—it has to be called out for the diversionary tactic which it plainly is.</para></quote>
<para>Mr Morris, in what is now a public submission, goes on to deal with the powers and privileges of a Senate committee. I would certainly urge those in this chamber, including the clerks, to have a look at Mr Morris's opinion on the powers and privileges of Senate committees and privileges of the House. They are useful and inexpensive advices that could well benefit some of us in this chamber.</para>
<para>Mr Morris, in his letter, goes on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">On its face, it is a very noble and high sounding sentiment to wish to avoid prejudicing proceedings before a court … And, if there were any genuine risk of such a prejudice, I am (speaking for myself) completely confident, both that no Honourable Senator—regardless of political affiliations and agendas—would knowingly ask a question which exposes such a risk; and also the committee as a whole would disallow such a question, or excuse the witness from answering it, once any such a risk became apparent. But the demonstrable reality is that no such risk exists, ever existed, or (indeed) could exist. It is rather less noble and high sounding for a witness, like Professor Triggs, to suggest the existence of such a risk merely as a calculated subterfuge to avoid answering embarrassing questions, where the only potential for prejudice is a prejudice to the witness's own reputation (assuming that she possesses one) for honesty, integrity, competence and diligence.</para></quote>
<para>I raise these matters in this debate because they are very germane to the issues Senator Burston has addressed in the bill before the chamber. As senators know, we will be sitting in estimates again the week after next. We indicated to Professor Triggs at the last hearing that, hopefully by the time of the next hearing, the court case under which she sought refuge would be resolved and that we would be asking her fully all of the questions which Senator Burston's bill very appropriately raises.</para>
<para>Armed with some very good legal advice, I would suspect—I cannot speak for the committee but my guess would be, knowing the committee that I chair—that the committee would probably adopt Mr Morris's version of sub judice and prejudicing court cases and, Senator Burston, we would expect Professor Triggs to actually answer some of the issues that you raise. I hope that your time commitments enable you and other senators to appear at the estimates committees and ask questions. As Mr Morris points out—Senator Burston mentioned this at length in his speech—only two of the students who were respondents in the QUT case—and he names them—have raised any issue regarding the AHRC's handling of pre-litigation processes and procedures. On 4 November 2016, the case against two of those respondents was summarily dismissed by the Federal Court, and there is no appeal to that. There was then the issue of an appeal by Ms Cindy Prior, who was the accuser, the plaintiff, the first party, who claimed $250,000 for something that most Australians could not believe was in any way offensive and certainly not racially offensive—and I think Senator Burston mentioned that in his address earlier, so I do not need to go through that. But Ms Moriarty, the solicitor for Ms Cindy Prior, apparently missed the appeal date and then blamed everyone else for her incompetence in not understanding when appeals had to be lodged.</para>
<para>There are two matters now pending before the Federal Court: an application for leave to apply out of time for leave to appeal—because she missed the time, she has had to apply for special leave to appeal out of time— and if that succeeds then there will be an application for leave to appeal—not an appeal, but an application for leave to appeal. Those applications are to be heard by a senior judge, and even if those applications succeed it will only mean that Ms Prior has the opportunity to appeal, despite her solicitor's mistakes. Of course, it will not mean that any appeal will succeed or is likely to succeed. Mr Morris makes it quite clear in his opinion that senators asking questions of the Human Rights Commission in a Senate estimates committee is hardly likely to be front of mind of the senior judge of the Federal Court when he hears these matters. Mr Morris quite rightly says that questions of this nature are in no way likely to in any way impact on any hearings before any court at any time in the future in relation to this matter.</para>
<para>Most of the problems which occurred in the QUT case would have been cured had the bill that Senator Burston proposes been in play. As I say, Senator Burston, everybody thought—even, it seems, the Human Rights Commission itself—that the pre-investigation investigations by the Human Rights Commission would have been done. But the facts will show, and we hope to get those facts at the next estimates committee hearing, exactly what the Human Rights Commission did. What we know for certain is that they did not even bother to tell the respondents for about 14 months after the complaint was made—how could that possibly happen in an Australian judicial or quasi-judicial system? Fourteen months before the respondents, who might have been facing paying out $250,000, were even told that the complaint had been made—just outrageous.</para>
<para>Senator Burston, I wish your bill well. Thank you for raising the issue publicly and I hope it will have an influence in correcting a very poor situation. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017. This amendment would make substantial changes to the procedures for dealing with complaints lodged with the Human Rights Commission under part IIB of the Australian Human Rights Commission Act. These are complaints that allege unlawful discrimination under various provisions of the Age Discrimination Act 2004, the Disability Discrimination Act 1992, the Racial Discrimination Act 1975 and the Sex Discrimination Act 1984. The bill also seeks to change the procedure for dealing with complaints lodged with the Australian Human Rights Commission under part IIB of the Australian Human Rights Commission Act 1986. The bill adds a requirement that the commission, on receiving a complaint, must engage in a preliminary assessment of the complaint and the evidence relating to it before proceeding to a full inquiry. It also adds requirements relating to informing respondents about the complaint.</para>
<para>On 8 November 2016, the Attorney-General referred to the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights an inquiry into whether the complaints-handling procedures of the Australian Human Rights Commission should be reformed and other matters relating to section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. The committee has been receiving submissions and conducting public hearings into these matters and is due to report on 28 February 2017.</para>
<para>Labor opposes this bill on the basis that it pre-empts the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, which has been examining this exact issue and is due to report by the end of this month. To suggest that this chamber should support a bill today, or days before a report on this very important matter is released, is clearly contemptuous not only of the joint committee's function but also of the thousands of Australians who have made submissions to that inquiry expecting that their views would be considered and presented in the committee's report for consideration by the Senate. Perhaps Senator Burston believes that the views of the Australian people are not worthy of his consideration. Labor will carefully consider the committee's report before supporting any changes to the Human Rights Commission's complaint processes, which have been widely successful in conciliating complaints while also providing savings in legal costs.</para>
<para>The Human Rights Commission has a special responsibility as our national human rights institution: the protection and promotion of human rights in the country. It is empowered to administer those human rights statutes that Australia has implemented, independent of government. It works to make sure that Australia honours the human rights commitments we have made. The commission provides a direct service to the Australian community. The commission assists people to resolve disputes about discrimination and breaches of human rights. Much of the commission's work is also policy work. The commission promotes human rights and freedoms by engaging with government, industry and community groups. The commission has been responsible for building the case for change in many important issues. It also provides a human rights analysis to the courts and parliamentary inquiries, conducts research and contributes to partnerships.</para>
<para>In carrying out its conciliation function, the commission performs a vital role in ensuring access to justice for people who have experienced discrimination, harassment and vilification. Those sorts of measures ensure that, consistently with article 2 section 3(a) of the ICCPR, people whose human rights or freedoms have been breached have access to an effective remedy.</para>
<para>The commission's complaints process is set out in the Australian Human Rights Commission Act. Any person who wants to make a complaint of unlawful discrimination under one of these federal acts must first make the complaint to the commission. The commission inquires into the complaint and attempts to conciliate it. If a complaint cannot be resolved, the complainant then has the option of making an application to the Federal Circuit Court or the Federal Court. The commission's process and the judicial processes are complementary.</para>
<para>The commission's complaint processes focus on informal dispute resolution, which provides an assessable, timely and cost-effective way for parties to deal with discrimination related disputes. This benefits both the individual parties to a complaint. Users of the commission's services, both complainants and respondents, report high levels of satisfaction. The Human Rights Commission receives thousands of complaints each year, the overwhelming majority of which are settled through conciliation. In the 2016-17 financial year, the Human Rights Commission reported that 94 per cent of the surveyed parties to complaints were satisfied with the process. That figure rose to 98 per cent where complainants were conciliated. Those are not the figures of a process that is necessarily in need of reform.</para>
<para>The commission has been widely successful in reaching conciliation and keeping low the numbers of cases that are brought to court. I note that a recent cost-benefit analysis conducted by the Centre for International Economics found that the commission's dispute resolution service provides significant savings for the Australian community in terms of conciliating the vast majority of cases so that they are not required to be brought to court, saving public administrative and private legal costs.</para>
<para>These advocates of repealing section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act like to create the spectre of thousands of vexatious complaints about human rights, particularly racial discrimination, brought to courts. The truth is that, in the 22 years that section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act has been in existence, barely 100 cases have been brought to court. The remaining complaints were either withdrawn or sorted through the conciliation process of the Human Rights Commission, usually involving an apology or a retraction and no court involvement.</para>
<para>While I appreciate that Senator Burston, like me, is relatively new to the Senate, many members of this chamber will remember the Abbott government's withdrawal of his attempt to water down laws protecting against racial abuse, Holocaust denial and harmful hate speech back in 2014. The Abbott government's attempt to water down section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act was proof of just how out of touch that government was with the mainstream Australian community, which rejected proposed repeals with rallies and thousands of emails and phone calls to elected representatives.</para>
<para>Senator Brandis, the Attorney-General and Leader of the Government in the Senate, rather infamously said, 'People have a right to be bigots, you know.' We know Senator Brandis's position on this issue. We know that some of the members opposite want to use protections against hate speech as a political football to appease the ignorant and deplorable in their party room, and I caution against doing this.</para>
<para>Labor will fight to defend laws against racist hate. We rarely hear advocates for the repeal of section 18C mention Section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act, which includes broad-ranging exemptions to Section 18C, including 'in the performance of an artistic work' and 'in making a fair comment on any event or matter of public interest if the comment is an expression of a genuine belief'. There are many laws that draw a line on what Australians can and cannot say, and this is a good thing. I hope that no member in this parliament would support the repeal of Australia's defamation laws or consumer laws that ensure that a product is what its manufacturer says it is or a law that bans speech that incites terrorism or violence. Just last year this parliament, with Labor's support, legislated to create a criminal offence for advocating genocide—and I am yet to hear those advocates for free speech protesting this resolution.</para>
<para>Labor are the party of free and fair speech, but we are not the party of hate speech. It is very easy to declare oneself to be committed to freedom of speech, but to those who advocate changing or repealing section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act I ask: what is it that you want to be able to say? For some in this chamber, free speech is allowing reactionary shock-jocks to indulge in rants that fly in the face of the standards of truth and basic decency that our community expects and deserves. For others, freedom of speech is allowing insulting and offensive racist hate speech. We should condone or accept neither. Laws pertaining to speech are important because words do matter. To paraphrase the words of a speech I gave earlier in this chamber: words do matter, and how we use words is critical. With rights come responsibilities.</para>
<para>Discrimination, including racial discrimination, still occurs all over Australia—and that is why laws like Section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act are so important. If those opposite do not believe me, I encourage them to go and talk to Indigenous Australians or to new migrants and ask if they have ever experienced racism or racist hate speech. The new Chief Justice of the High Court said in a judgement in 2001:</para>
<para>… to 'offend, insult, humiliate or intimidate' are profound and serious effects, not to be likened to mere slights.</para>
<para>I suggest that senators remember those words when they consider this bill and what it seeks to achieve. Words matter because words can hurt, they can alienate and they can and do discriminate.</para>
<para>Labor understand that freedom of speech should be rooted in the principles of human rights. We reject the false argument that practically any regulation or restriction on what we say infringes our right to free speech, and we reject this bill which seeks to strangle the capacity of the Human Rights Commission. Labor's position is that every Australian, regardless of their race or ethnic background, has the right to live in a society free from the threat of being insulted, humiliated, offended or intimidated because of their race, colour or ethnic origin. The Human Rights Commission is the independent body that provides an avenue for aggrieved citizens to complain if they feel that these rights have been violated. It is a great sadness to me that, instead of debating funding for schools, action on climate change or support for our great and diverse multicultural communities, this chamber is yet again debating the merits of protections against racist hate speech. Finding the balance between free speech and protections against certain kinds of speech is not easy. The balance struck, though, in our current anti-discrimination laws administered by the Human Rights Commission over the past 20 years has worked well and without controversy.</para>
<para>In conclusion, the Human Rights Commission has served Australia well. It has provided essential protections against discrimination based on age, disability, race and gender. Labor will not pre-empt the findings of the Senate committee on potential reforms to the Human Rights Commission's complaints processes, and that is the basis on which we cannot support this bill. But we will firmly stand with the great multicultural communities of Australia against any attempts to allow racist hate speech in our great country.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As outlined for Labor by the previous speaker, Senator Dodson, the Greens will not be supporting this motion. There are many, many reasons for that, but the one that was just mentioned by Senator Dodson on process was a particularly strong argument. I do not know if Senator Burston has actually noticed, but there is a joint house committee examining matters associated with the Racial Discrimination Act and the Human Rights Commission Act and it is yet to make a report on those matters. In fact, there are still public hearings to occur both here in Canberra and potentially in other places around the country. To support this bill today would be pre-empting the process that has been established by this parliament.</para>
<para>It is no surprise that here we are again debating matters to do with the Human Rights Commission and the Racial Discrimination Act, as if somehow they fit into the top 1,000 issues facing Australians today. It is like Groundhog Day in this place, but instead of an adorable critter like a groundhog the anti-18C campaign would be more accurately likened to some kind of mutant, feral rat that sticks its head out of its burrow on a consistent basis. Lo and behold, again in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> today thousands of words have appeared in regards to Islam and what happened on <inline font-style="italic">Q&A</inline>.</para>
<para>This continues the absolute torrent we have seen from <inline font-style="italic">The Australian </inline>about 18C over the last year or so. I want to make a couple of comments on that. <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>, or as it may be better described, the 'Q Society Gazette', has become little more than a loss-making, race-baiting rag. I have a suggestion for <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>: where the name of the paper appears on the front page, maybe they could put in smaller font just underneath it, 'We are not racist but…' Let's see if <inline font-style="italic">The Australian </inline>is prepared to take on that. I know I am a greenie, and I am playing into stereotypes here, but it breaks my heart to think about the thousands of trees that have died so that <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>'s 18C rubbish can be printed every day—column after column of middle-aged white blokes screaming about how their rights in Australia are being suppressed and trampled on. It might even be believable if those same middle-aged white blokes were not writing op-ed after op-ed that espoused their bigoted and xenophobic world view. It is worth pointing out that <inline font-style="italic">The Australian </inline>prints the disgusting, disgraceful eugenicist views of Gary Johns, who, remember, wants people to be sterilised before they can get the dole. Really!</para>
<para>The anti-18C campaign, run by the Q Society Gazette, <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>, and by the IPA and the agents of the IPA in this place, is about nothing more than greenlighting angry white people to use the n-word in this country. The Australian Greens will not have a bar of it. When they are not kicking vulnerable minorities—<inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>—they are dodging paying their fair of tax. I want to talk about lifters and leaners. How about they ditch their dodgy accountants and their dodgy accounting schemes and actually start paying their fair share of tax so that we can look after ordinary Australian people better.</para>
<para>Today we have <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>—I have not counted the words, but it is well over a page, including the biggest story on the front page—basically character assassinating Yassmin Abdel-Magied. She would no doubt be able to speak for herself far more eloquently than I can today, but it is worth pointing out that, just as we had with Duncan Storrar last year, someone who has dared to go on the ABC—<inline font-style="italic">Q&A</inline> in both of those cases—and express views with which <inline font-style="italic">The Australian </inline>disagrees has been character assassinated in their pages. I want to quote from a story in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>. There is the front page: it is the biggest story there. It carries over to be most of page 2. By implication, they are suggesting hypocrisy from Ms Abdel-Magied, because she has dared to claim that Islam is a feminist religion and made the point that some people on <inline font-style="italic">Q&A </inline>found that really hard to understand. She has also said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I’m not going to deny, some countries run by Muslims are violent and sexist, but that’s not down to sharia. That’s down to the culture and the patriarchy and the politics of those … countries.</para></quote>
<para>They have implied hypocrisy by going through a list of the countries that Ms Abdel-Magied visited and going into some graphic detail about how women are treated there. It is a straight, simple character assassination by <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>, as they always do when someone dares raise their head above the parapet and make comments with which they disagree. It is a disgusting, race-baiting rag.</para>
<para>Is freedom of speech seriously under any threat in this country? Is it seriously in the top thousand issues that Australians are faced with today? No, it is not. To make that point I am going to read out some of the things that One Nation candidates and politicians have said in recent times. Mr Andy Semple, the now disendorsed candidate in Queensland, tweeted the LGBT acronym, which in common parlance stands for lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender, with images of the Statue of Liberty—the capital L; a gun—capital G; beer—capital B; and tits—capital T.</para>
<para>The you have Shan Ju Lin penning a Facebook post that said gays should be treated as patients. Then there was Peter Rogers, who wrote a blog post claiming that the drowning of a three-year-old refugee was faked, and also, disgracefully, claimed that the Port Arthur massacre was faked. Then there is David Archibald in Western Australia, who claimed that single mothers are too lazy to hold onto their partners. Just this week you have Michelle Myers, who said that gay people are using Nazi mind control techniques on the population. You have Chelle Dodson, who refused to eat an aeroplane meal because it was halal certified. Just this morning you have had a candidate who, according to Fairfax papers:</para>
<quote><para class="block">…once advocated killing Indonesian journalists, and attacked "poofters", Muslims and black people…</para></quote>
<para>Is anybody seriously going to suggest that freedom of speech is under any kind of threat in Australia today? Unfortunately, there are people who are making that argument. It has not escaped my notice, and the notice of many other Australians, that they are almost exclusively middle-aged white guys, like me and, for that matter, like Senator Burston. It is middle-aged white guys who are leading the charge—the most privileged people in our society, somehow trying to make an argument that their democratic freedoms are being trampled, while we have heard on the Human Rights Committee horror story after horror story from peak bodies representing anyone from the Jewish community to the Muslim community, to the Indian community and to the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander about the everyday racism that their members experience. The lived experience of racism in this country faced by people from minority racial or cultural groups is absolutely horrendous. And, of itself, that is a freedom of speech issue. When people are treated in a racist way, often with threats or violence, their freedom of speech is compromised because they are afraid to speak out and say what they really think without facing discrimination in their workplace, in their schools, on the streets, in their communities, in the pubs where they might have a beer. So they hold it all in. They do not exercise their right to free speech in this country because they are too bloody scared to talk. That is a problem. That is the freedom of speech problem in this country, not a bunch of privileged middle-aged white guys. It is the lived experience of multicultural Australia and minority groups in this country that is the real freedom of speech issue that we need to be debating more often in this place.</para>
<para>As I said, there are many, many reasons why we will not be supporting the bill before the Senate today. Senator Burston has completely and abjectly failed to make the case for change, including procedural change inside the Human Rights Commission and in regard to the act that establishes the Human Rights Commission and frames up some of the matters that pertain to the way the commission has run.</para>
<para>There are submissions on the public record through the human rights committee, the joint house committee that is examining these matters. Many of those submissions can be seen on the committee website. Some of those submissions have, indeed, recommended change in the way that the Human Rights Commission handles complaints, responds to complaints and deals with complaints. That is a matter that the committee will no doubt deliberate on and form a position or, perhaps, a range of positions on. But that is a matter for the committee.</para>
<para>What the Greens want to say about this is: we will look at those submissions, we will hear the evidence—and that has already been put before the committee in some cases; in other cases it remains to be put before the committee in public hearings, one of which is coming up later this week—and we will form a view once we have heard all the evidence. Some submitters have suggested improvements to the way the act is framed and the way the Human Rights Commission handles complaints. Others have mounted reasonable arguments that there is no case for change and no need for change. But those matters will be considered by the Greens, and we will continue to play a constructive role on that committee.</para>
<para>But I do want to say—and I will finish my contribution here—that this country, like other countries around the world, is experiencing a resurgence of fundamentalist right-wing politics. We are facing a resurgence of racism in this country. Even the fact that the human rights committee is examining matters around 18C actually has resulted in increased levels of fear and trepidation in some minority racial groups in this country. Just the fact that we are even having the debate has caused them to feel more fearful for themselves, more fearful for their families, more fearful for their future.</para>
<para>Any change in 18C, no matter how well or poorly intentioned, will inevitably have the effect of green lighting more racism in Australia. As the Greens have consistently said, we do not believe that this is the time to be making any change to 18C whatsoever. If that change was made, there is no doubt that many people in this country, including <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>, the IPA and many senators in this place, would go out and describe the change as a great victory for freedom of speech. That, of course, would be the subtle dog-whistle green light to more racism in this country. People would feel more empowered to be racist in Australia if any change to 18C were made.</para>
<para>From the Greens point of view, we will keep an open mind on the process issues inside the Human Rights Commission. They ought not be inflated in any way with 18C, which, of course, is in the Racial Discrimination Act. The act has very strong freedom of speech protections, I might add, in section 18D—a matter we hear very little about from proponents of changing 18C. So we will stand strongly against racist hate speech in this country. We will stand strongly behind the protections that are delivered against racist hate speech by section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act. We will keep an open mind on process matters in regards to the Human Rights Commission and any possible amendments to that act.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SINGH</name>
    <name.id>M0R</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This bill, the Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017, is a thinly veiled attack by One Nation on our Human Rights Commission. It is an attempt to tie it up in red tape so it becomes unworkable. As Senator Dodson clearly articulated, it strangles the capacity of the Human Rights Commission and it is a complete waste of the Senate's time.</para>
<para>I ask Senator Burston: have you actually read the Australian Human Rights Commission's annual report? If you had read this annual report you would know very clearly that, in 2015-16, the commission received 2,013 complaints and finalised 1,982 of them in the same year. Seventy-six per cent of those complaints were resolved through conciliation. Almost half of the complaints were finalised in three months, and 82 per cent were resolved within six months. So let us be clear: there are no major issues with the complaints procedures of the Human Rights Commission. If the senator would take the time to read this report before he wastes the Senate's time by bringing bills into this place that are a complete waste of the Senate's time, we would not have to be wasting time this morning debating such a ludicrous bill.</para>
<para>Let us be really clear. I have made it very clear that there are no issues with the complaints procedure of the Australian Human Rights Commission, but there are major issues with this bill and some serious questions for One Nation. Why won't Senator Burston be a little bit more honest and clear as to why One Nation are really bringing this bill before parliament? Are they deliberately trying to tie up the Australian Human Rights Commission in red tape so that then they can call for its abolition when the timeliness starts blowing out and cases cannot be resolved quickly? Are they going after the Australian Human Rights Commission because it stands up for and implements section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act? We know clearly that they do not want any limits when it comes to the hate speech that pours out of certain One Nation candidates, at least, and we are very aware of some of those remarks.</para>
<para>Some of those remarks of course have been absolutely disgusting and appalling for our Australian society. That is the kind of candidate that this party puts forward, and that leads to getting elected and bills coming before this place that are a complete abomination and a waste of time. Let us have a look at what some of those candidates have said. One said, very clearly, that gay communities use Nazi-style mind control to get people to support same-sex marriage. Another said that gays should be treated as medical patients whose 'abnormal' behaviour leads to 'abnormal crime'. And then there was one just today, a new One Nation candidate, Richard Eldridge. Let us look at his record:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… a real estate agent contesting an upper house seat in the South Metropolitan region of Perth … called Muslims "little sheet heads", derided gay relationships as "poo games" and advocated taking up arms against "extreme Muslims".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In one extraordinary rant about Indonesians in November 2013, Mr Eldridge—</para></quote>
<para>this is a One Nation candidate in the WA state election—</para>
<quote><para class="block">said we should "Balibo" Indonesian journalists—</para></quote>
<para>'Balibo' Indonesian journalists—</para>
<quote><para class="block">an apparent reference to the 1975 murder of the Balibo Five group of Australian journalists in Timor.</para></quote>
<para>It is absolutely appalling. This is the level of candidate coming out of One Nation, and this is the party that the Liberal Party in Western Australia have done a preference deal with, preferencing them over their own coalition partners, the National Party, to help candidates like Richard Eldridge get elected. That just shows you the craziness that Australian politics has entered into and the kinds of outcomes that we end up getting, with bills like this being brought before the Senate today.</para>
<para>If we really wanted to think seriously about human rights in this country, we would actually read the report of Emeritus Professor Gillian Triggs, the President of the Australian Human Rights Commission, in this annual report, because she outlines very clearly the challenges for human rights in this country—and there are many challenges. There are challenges such as the proposition for constitutional recognition of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples; racial harmony and community cohesion, which is a key challenge; a national plebiscite to amend the Marriage Act to recognise LGBTI relationships; laws to ensure Australia's national security while also not unduly encroaching on the rights of our citizens; durable settlement for asylum seekers and refugees seeking our protection; and efforts to enable Australia to ratify the Optional Protocol to the Convention against Torture. Gender inequality continues to be a national concern, as was raised this morning at the International Women's Day breakfast. There are issues like the participation of older Australians in our workforce and the evolving National Disability Insurance Scheme. These are the human rights issues that are important for this country. That is a reason to come into this place and talk about human rights. If Senator Burston had the time to read this report, perhaps he would understand that, and perhaps he would understand why it is so important that we have an effective Australian Human Rights Commission.</para>
<para>The other bizarre part of all of this is the fact that there is already a joint committee inquiry going on that is examining, among other things, the complaints-handling procedures of the Australian Human Rights Commission. That report is going to be completed in a couple of weeks—28 February, I think it is. Why pre-empt the outcomes of that report? Why come into this place and put forward a bill before that current joint committee inquiry has done its work? It shows a disdain for our parliamentary systems. These are the systems that we have in place to ensure that we scrutinise and do our thorough work for the betterment of our democracy. What is the point in bringing this bill forward before the outcome of that report?</para>
<para>I think this bill makes clear One Nation's lack of understanding about human rights and about the Australian Human Rights Commission. I think, to be honest, that it exposes their immaturity and their inexperience regarding human rights. They are unable to frame meaningful legislation, so they resort to the kind of stunt politics of a fringe party, trying to make changes to something that they clearly do not understand. The outcome of course is politics—politics that so many Australians are getting sick of.</para>
<para>The Labor Party stand proudly on the side of human rights. In fact, 'Doc' Evatt was there at the beginning, in San Francisco, at the birth of the convention on human rights, with our United Nations charter. We also stand very proudly as being the party that introduced section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, something I know One Nation want to get rid of, because they do not want any restraints on being a bigot. You see, a bigot restrained will never suffer more than a victim shamed—never. And I do not think you, Senator Burston, will ever really know what that feels like.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Address your remarks through the chair, thank you, Senator Singh.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SINGH</name>
    <name.id>M0R</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Regardless of that, this constraining of those who seek those kinds of protections in our Racial Discrimination Act continues. In fact, this morning we had Christopher Pyne gagging Ms Burney in the other place when she tried to speak on a motion regarding native title during Closing the Gap week. This is the ludicrous nature that has got about not just One Nation but the Liberal Party as well. This shows clearly how politics rather than substance is trying to win out for these people.</para>
<para>As I said, the Labor Party is proud to have introduced section 18 C, and the Labor Party fights to retain it. It is a critical element of our antidiscrimination framework and it has served this country well for 20 years. It strengthens the rich fabric of Australia's successful multicultural community. It appropriately balances freedom of speech with the right of all Australians to live in dignity, free from bigotry and the destructive, divisive effects of racially motivated hate speech. Australians can and do use avenues that are open to them to call out racism when they see it. We use those rules to defend what is good and to show that hatred and hate speech is out. We do not accept excuses that racially motivated hate speech, racially motivated vilification, is an ordinary and acceptable part of living in our democracy. If Senator Burston thinks it is then we are on completely different sides of the coin. That is not the sort of society that I want to live in, and that is why I am proud to be part of a party that, for the last 20 years, has ensured that we had that level of law in our country that ensures that racially motivated hate speech is not an ordinary and acceptable part of living in our democracy.</para>
<para>To build a society where people of different racial and ethnic backgrounds feel able to fully participate and where people can live, work and play side by side, we need to defend our right to speak freely but fairly, just like we need to defend the laws that we have that provide for that, and the institutions that we have that provide for that—and that is exactly what the Australian Human Rights Commission does and does effectively and has done effectively year on end. So why are we here debating this bill? Why do we have a senator from a party bringing in this bill that makes no sense? It simply makes no sense. I also ask: why does Senator Burston not seem to have the support of the rest of his party? The usual practice when a party brings a bill into this place is that, in solidarity, it has its other senators back that senator up. Where are the rest of Senator Burston's team to back up this bill? I cannot see anyone else from One Nation on the speakers list today. I will always stand strongly with my Labor senators and colleagues on the right side of history, and that side of history is to ensure we live in a society in harmony.</para>
<para>Senator Burston would be aware that soon we will be celebrating Harmony Day. What is Harmony Day about? Harmony Day is about celebrating the rich tapestry that makes up Australia, our multicultural nation, our successful multicultural nation. But, as has been widely articulated by Senator Dodson, that is now all under threat. That is under threat because of the rise of this extreme Right agenda of those fringe parties of One Nation coming into this place with bills like this, putting up candidates that I described earlier such as Richard Eldridge, Michelle Meyers, Shan Ju Lin, Brian Brighton and David Archibald, who have all said appalling things in the Australian speech space, so much so that One Nation had to disendorse a couple of them. I call on One Nation today: are you going to disendorse Richard Eldridge? I call the Liberal Party in WA: are you really going to do a preference deal to help a candidate like this get elected, a candidate that has effectively said that Indonesian journalists should be murdered, that they should be 'Baliboed'? Outrageous! Are these really the kinds of politicians we want in Australian society? Is this really the kind of representation that we want in our community? What kinds of values is that putting out to the next generation, to say that it is okay to use that kind of language?</para>
<para>As Senator Dodson said, words do matter and words can hurt and they can discriminate. That is why the Australian Human Rights Commission has a special responsibility for the protection of human rights in this country—the protection of the vulnerable, the protection of the elderly, the protection of minorities, the protection of our first peoples, the protection of our Racial Discrimination Act. I think One Nation would prefer to live in Australia without such protections. I think One Nation would prefer to be able to be bigots whenever they choose to use hurtful language and whenever they choose to have such demeaning and awful effects on the victims that they go after. As I said, they will never know what that feels like because a bigot restrained will never suffer more than a victim shamed. Racism and bigotry, wherever expressed, are wrong. No-one has a right to be a bigot, particularly if they hurt someone.</para>
<para>That is why Labor proudly stands against this ludicrous bill. It is a complete waste of the Senate's time. It strangles the capacity of the Human Rights Commission, it pre-empts the findings of a current joint committee that is examining some of these very matters and it flies in the face of the detail in this Human Rights Commission annual report, which shows very clearly that the complaints system is effective and working completely fine. There is no other reason why One Nation has brought this about, other than to put forward their ongoing political agenda, which seems to be nothing more than a racist rant.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam Deputy President, I understand you will be pulling me up in a minute or so, but I will just say that the government will not be supporting this bill. On that I do agree with Senator Singh. The fact that we have a committee that is conducting a robust investigation into the Human Rights Commission and its processes means that we should wait for that process to be complete.</para>
<para>On that point, I will depart from what Senator Singh had to say because I do have concerns, as we have inquired of the Human Rights Commission during the estimates process as to how they operate and about the impact on free speech in Australia. We look at the case of QUT, which has made it into the media. I thank <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> in particular for their defence, not only of their cartoonists but for their highlighting of the plight of these three students. When you look at what they have been taken to task over, you could not call them bigots and you could not say that they were racist, and yet the full force of law and the costs associated with that have ended up landing on their doorsteps. Two of them have had to pay 'go away' money to the lady who made the complaint and her lawyer. Thankfully, we have had QCs and others who have been prepared, on a pro bono basis, to support these people so that this can actually be litigated and the public can see the impact that this has in a quite unfair manner on Australians.</para>
<para>The things that have come out during the estimates process that have been quite disturbing are the number of cases that have been settled or dealt with where people are not free to talk about the results, the outcome or the process. So the public has no idea of how many of these cases were payments made to make the problem go away, and in how many of these cases people have felt unable to express their points of view.</para>
<para>I share Senator Singh's concern that Australia should not be a place where people are belittled and put down, but I do not share her contention that 18C, as it currently stands, is actually doing a particularly good job of making Australia a place where we get that balance right. To quote the Attorney-General from a former Labor government in 2012— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for this debate has expired. Senator Fawcett, you will be in continuation.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>14</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WILLIAMS</name>
    <name.id>I0V</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to notice given on 15 February 2017, I withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 2 standing in my name for 20 March 2017 proposing the disallowance of the Financial Framework (Supplementary Powers) Amendment (Industry, Innovation and Science Measures No. 2) Regulation 2016, and business of the Senate notices of motion No. 1 and No. 3 standing in my name for 30 March 2017 proposing the disallowance of the Army and Air Force (Canteen) Regulation 2016 and the Financial Framework (Supplementary Powers) Amendment (Education and Training Measures No. 4) Regulation 2016. I also give notice of my intention at the giving of the notice on the next sitting day to withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1 standing in my name for 20 March 2017 proposing the disallowance of the Migration Act 1958—Class of Persons Defined as Fast Track Applicants 2016/049.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to notice and on behalf of Senator Whish-Wilson I withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No.3 standing in his name for 20 March 2017 relating to the disallowance of paragraphs 23(b) and 23(g) of the Superannuation (prudential standard) determination No.1 of 2016—Prudential Standard SPS 510—Governance.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>14</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Selection of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>14</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>14</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the second report of 2017 of the Selection of Bills Committee and I seek leave to have the report incorporated into <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para><inline font-style="italic">The report read as follows</inline>—</para>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">REPORT NO. 2 OF 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. The committee met in private session on Wednesday, 15 February 2017 at 7.24 pm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. The committee recommends—That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Australian Broadcasting Corporation Amendment (Restoring Shortwave Radio) Bill 2017 be <inline font-style="italic">referred immediately</inline> to the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 10 May 2017 (see appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the <inline font-style="italic">provisions</inline> of the Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017 be <inline font-style="italic">referred immediately</inline> to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 17 March 2017 (see appendix 2 and 3 for a statement of reasons for referral); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the <inline font-style="italic">provisions</inline> of the Treasury Laws Amendment (Combating Multinational Tax Avoidance) Bill 2017 and the Diverted Profits Tax Bill 2017 be <inline font-style="italic">referred immediately</inline> to the Economics Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 20 March 2017 (see appendix 4 for a statement of reasons for referral).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3. The committee resolved to recommend—That the following bills <inline font-style="italic">not</inline> be referred to committees:</para></quote>
<list>Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Customs Tariff Amendment Bill 2016</list>
<list>Enhancing Online Safety for Children Amendment Bill 2017</list>
<list>Fisheries Legislation Amendment (Representation) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Parliamentary Expenses Amendment (Transparency and Accountability) Bill 2015</list>
<list>Transport Security Legislation Amendment Bill 2016</list>
<list>Treasury Laws Amendment (2016 Measures No. 1) Bill 2016.</list>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">The committee recommends accordingly.</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4. The committee deferred consideration of the following bills to its next meeting:</para></quote>
<list>Australian Human Rights Commission Amendment (Preliminary Assessment Process) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Biosecurity Amendment (Ballast Water and Other Measures) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Crimes Amendment (Penalty Unit) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Disability Services Amendment (Linking Upper Age Limits for Disability Employment Services to Pension Age) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Education and Other Legislation Amendment Bill (No. 1) 2017</list>
<list>End Cruel Cosmetics Bill 2014</list>
<list>Farm Household Support Amendment Bill 2017</list>
<list>Health Insurance Amendment (National Rural Health Commissioner) Bill 2017</list>
<list>National Health Amendment (Pharmaceutical Benefits) Bill 2016</list>
<list>Protection of the Sea (Prevention of Pollution from Ships) Amendment (Polar Code) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Racial Discrimination Amendment Bill 2016</list>
<list>Treasury Laws Amendment (2017 Measures No. 1) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Treasury Laws Amendment (GST Low Value Goods) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Treasury Laws Amendment (Working Holiday Maker Employer Register) Bill 2017.</list>
<quote><para class="block">(David Bushby)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chair</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16 February 2017</para></quote>
<para>APPENDIX 1</para>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Broadcasting Corporations Amendment (Restoring Short wave Radio) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Consideration of the impact of the requirement for the ABC to retain its shortwave radio transmission radio service provided in the Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ABC</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Strategic and Policy Institute</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Friends of the ABC</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Communications</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 April 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10 May 2016</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(signed)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Kakoschke-Moore</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">APPENDIX 2</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Native Title Amendment {Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<list>This is legislation which proposes changes to the Native Title Act. The recognition and protection of native title is important to Indigenous Australians and the broader Australian community.</list>
<list>It is appropriate and responsible for the Senate to properly examine the impact of proposed amendments to native title law .</list>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Attorney-General's Department</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Native Title Law Council</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Native Title Council</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Native Title Tribunal</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Native Title Services</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Law Reform Commission</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Minerals Council of Australia</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Parks Associations</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Legal & Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17 March 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(signed)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Urquhart</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">APPENDIX 3</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Stakeholder views on the Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Native Title Council, Northern Land Council , Kimberley Land Council, South West Aboriginal Land and Sea Council, Central Land Council , Wangan and Jagalingou (W&J) Traditional Owners Council and other Native Title groups</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27 March 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(signed)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Siewert</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">APPENDIX 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Treasury Laws Amendment (Combating Multinational Tax Avoidance) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Diverted Profits Tax Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Impact of these bills on the Australian government's budget position</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Impact of these bills on the investment environment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Impact of these bills on equality</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Business sector</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Trade unions</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Social justice sector</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Academics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Early March; April</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 May 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(signed)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Siewert</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the report be adopted.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the time for the presentation of the final report of the Selection of Bills Committee on the Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017 that has been referred to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee be extended to 8 May 2017.</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This bill is a very complex bill. It will make significant changes to native title. I have had a number of consultations with a number of people, many of whom support the concept of the changes, many of whom do not support the concept of the changes. I and a number of people have expressed concern about the rushed nature of the debate on these native title changes. In fact, the proposals for change had been made for quite a number of years before the court case that has now triggered the government's sense of urgency, which we think is more around the Adani mine in Queensland than any sincere desire to help address some of the ongoing issues about ILUAs—land-use agreements. So we think that these changes need a considerable period of time to allow consultation.</para>
<para>I, as I said, have been talking to a number of groups from around Australia and I clearly acknowledge there are groups that are in support of these changes and there are groups that are opposed to these changes and other people, who support the concept but who think that amendments need to be made. We need time to assess these changes. The government will probably stand up and say, 'You wanted to refer it to 27 March.' There was not agreement to that in the report; it went to 17 March. However, overnight and this morning, there has been increased concern raised with me. I think it needs much further consultation, to 8 May. That would allow everybody to have a look at these amendments, to actually understand the impacts of the amendments and whether in fact there needs to be amendments to the amendments or other things added to the bill.</para>
<para>This is a serious issue. The fact is these issues have been raised over a number of years. There has been a lack of action, an unwillingness to address these issues until suddenly it starts threatening mining in the resource industry. That is what is driving the government's overwhelming desire to rush this through now rather than allow a significant period of time to actually assess the impacts of very serious amendments of an already very complex piece of legislation. This will allow us to assess those amendments. I urge the chamber to acknowledge this is complex and to support changing the date so that we can have a thorough review through the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee of the changes to the Native Title Act.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On the amendment, the opposition is sympathetic to the comments just made by Senator Siewert. We agreed last night that 17 March was an appropriate time for referral but we also acknowledge that these issues are complex and that there will be a lot of stakeholder interest. We would leave that in the hands of the committee as it progresses with the consideration of the Native Title Amendment Act. I am not disputing that these issues are complex but we, at the moment, are happy with 17 March. We will await further advice from the committee once that inquiry is undertaken to see whether any further extensions are required.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is really important to acknowledge here that what we are talking about is a very complex piece of legislation, a fundamental piece of legislation that goes to the very heart of what it means to achieve recognition of country for Aboriginal people. The idea that a government dominated committee for reasons of its own is the arbiter of for an appropriate time line in this is laughable. This is a really complex issue. This is something that stems back decades. We know that there are many problems with the legislation as it stands. We have heard from people right across the community about how critical it is to get this right. Why would we simply rush this piece of legislation through this parliament when it has been so contentious for so long? Many Indigenous groups have stood up and said: 'We want this done and done properly.'</para>
<para>Let's be frank about this; we know that this is a rushed timetable to try and facilitate the development of the Adani coalmine. We need to see some, I think, thorough reflection, some thorough inquiry to get this right; otherwise, we will be here again and again. That is why my colleague Senator Rachel Siewert has proposed that we extend that time line to May 8 and that we give this issue the attention that it deserves.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Siewert to move the reporting date to 8 May be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the report as presented by Senator Bushby be adopted.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>18</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>18</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the order of general business for consideration today be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) general business orders of the day:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">no. 39 Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">no. 3 Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) orders of the day relating to documents.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>18</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senator Payne for today on account of ministerial business.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>18</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That I, personally, be granted leave of absence for the period of 20 March 2017 to 30 March 2017, on account of parliamentary business overseas.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>19</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economics References Committee, Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee, Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>19</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reporting Date</title>
            <page.no>19</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Clerk. Does any senator wish to have the question put on any proposal? No, so I shall now proceed to the discovery of formal business.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>19</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>19</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senators O’Sullivan, Bernardi, Hanson, Hinch and Leyonhjelm, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee for inquiry and report by 30 June 2017:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The biosecurity risks associated with imports of seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the management of the emergency response measures implemented to control the outbreak of White Spot Syndrome Virus in the Logan and Albert river areas;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the effectiveness of biosecurity controls imposed on the importation of seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia, including the import risk analysis process concluded in 2009 that led to these conditions being established;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the effectiveness of post-entry surveillance measures and 'end use' import conditions for seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia, since the import conditions implemented in 2010 were put in place;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the impact of the outbreak on the Australian prawn industry;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) domestic and foreign trade implications for Australian industries resulting from the suspension of importation of seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the matters to be satisfied in the management of biosecurity risk before imports of seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia, could recommence; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) any related matters.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam Deputy President, I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The motion, as noted by you, said that I was one of the signatories. I originally was, but I have asked for my name to be removed as a signatory. I also noticed we had another motion, moved by the Labor Party, on exactly the same issue. I did not want to be caught in the crossfire between these two competing motions. It is a very important issue; white spot virus in prawns is a very significant issue. It should not be being played as a political football by having two competing motions. The Greens are happy to support both motions, but we want the government and the Labor Party to get together and sort out the best way forward for this. Regardless we will have an inquiry and the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee will sort out the terms of reference, but it is ridiculous that we have got this being played as a political thing here in the chamber today.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Rice. We will make sure your name is removed.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LEYONHJELM</name>
    <name.id>111206</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam Deputy President, I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LEYONHJELM</name>
    <name.id>111206</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I also indicate that at the time that I agreed to sponsor Senator O'Sullivan's motion, I was not aware that Senator Sterle had something similar coming. I think both of them have merit. I am happy for my name to remain associated with Senator O'Sullivan's motion, but I also indicate that I hope that Senator Sterle's motion also succeeds and that the committee can basically deal with both motions.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>20</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Sterle, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee for inquiry and report:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The biosecurity risks associated with imports of seafood and seafood products, including, but not limited to, uncooked prawns and uncooked prawn meat into Australia, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the management of White Spot virus in Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the impact of the outbreak on Australia's wild and farm prawn sectors;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the economic impact on Australian wholesalers and retailers;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the adequacy and timeliness of the Commonwealth's response;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the adequacy of Commonwealth resourcing of biosecurity measures, including Import Risk Assessments; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) any related matters.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Madam Deputy President, I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There is a superior alternative motion before the Senate that we have just dealt with. The other motion proposes a comprehensive inquiry into biosecurity measures related to the control of white spot virus, the control of its outbreak in farm prawns in the area of the Logan and Albert Rivers and the implications of that outbreak. Biosecurity is a shared responsibility between the Commonwealth, the states and territories, industry and the community. The Queensland government, through Biosecurity Queensland, is the lead agency in managing the outbreak response. The Commonwealth has supported Queensland's response effort by seeking to exclude from the inquiry considerations of the response and resourcing by the Queensland government. This proposed reference would critically constrict the investigation of the committee into this important issue.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that motion No. 4 as put by Senator Urquhart be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:25]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines) </p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Singh, LM</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC (teller)</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Nash, F</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>21</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Senators' Interests Committee</title>
          <page.no>21</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>21</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Standing Committee of Senators' Interests for inquiry and report by 23 March 2017:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Whether the form of the register should be amended to include a declaration from senators as to whether they either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) spend the money allocated to them known as an electorate allowance on their electorate and their electorate responsibilities, or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) take the money allocated to them known as an electorate allowance as a wage.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The electorate allowance which is determined by the independent Remuneration Tribunal is designed to meet unspecified costs that are necessarily incurred by senators in providing services to their constituents. There is a wide discretion for individual parliamentarians in how this allowance can be spent, as should be the case, as every electorate has different needs. Senators are advised in the handbook and the ruling from the Australian Taxation Office about the electorate allowance, and all senators should abide by this ruling.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian Greens understand that the electorate allowance exists to allow members of parliament to conduct their parliamentary business to engage in electorate activities. One thing the electorate allowance is not intended for is to be used as a supplement to people's salaries. At the moment it is entirely possible—indeed, we know—that some members of parliament have used it in this way, as a way to ensure that people top up their salaries. That is not what the electorate allowance is intended for. It should be spent on the electorate; it should be spent on MPs going about their parliamentary business. If the government and the opposition—we all support this—want to ensure that this money is in fact being spent for those reasons then we need to have legislation in place or, at the very least, an inquiry looking into a way to enforce that ruling. At the moment MPs can pocket it without spending a cent on their electorate, and we do not think that is right.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion as moved by Senator Di Natale be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:31]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>15</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>46</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>Nash, F</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Singh, LM</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee</title>
          <page.no>22</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>22</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LUDLAM</name>
    <name.id>I07</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Senate notes the failure to comply with the Senate orders for the production of documents agreed to on 13 and 14 February 2017, relating to the Perth Freight Link;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in order to investigate the subject of the Senate orders, the following matter be referred to the Environment and Communications References Committee for hearing on or before 24 February 2017, and reporting on or before 6 March 2017 - The continuation of construction of the Perth Freight Link in the face of significant environmental breaches;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) it be an instruction to the committee that it hold at least one hearing in Perth; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the following witnesses be invited and answer questions:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) Department of the Environment and Energy compliance and environmental standards officers,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the Minister for the Environment and Energy, Mr Josh Frydenberg,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) Federal Legal Counsel to the Minister and the Department,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) the Western Australian Minister for Environment, Mr Albert Jacob,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (v) the Office of the Environmental Protection Authority, in particular, senior compliance managers Mr Ian Munro and Mr Paul Zahara,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (vi) the proponent, Main Roads Western Australia,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (vii) Leightons contractors,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (viii) subcontractors completing the surveying work, fencing and trapping,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ix) witnesses who have directly documented breaches with federal approval conditions, and reported these to the minister, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (x) other witnesses as determined by the Environment and Communications References Committee.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Department of the Environment and Energy advises that all alleged breaches have been or are being investigated by the department in accordance with the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999. No compliance breaches have yet been determined to have occurred since construction commenced. The motion is focused on undertaking an investigation of how significant environmental breaches have occurred. It therefore assumes the existence of such breaches. The government does not support the establishment of an inquiry that is predicated on a prejudgement of the occurrence of significant breaches of the law.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Ludlam be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:41]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Singh, LM</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ (teller)</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>23</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Government Agencies: Decentralisation</title>
          <page.no>23</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WILLIAMS</name>
    <name.id>I0V</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator McKenzie and O'Sullivan, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) over many years, state and federal governments and local communities have seen the benefits of decentralisation through the relocation of government agencies to rural and regional areas;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the New South Wales Nationals in government relocated the Department of Agriculture to Orange in 1992;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the New South Wales Labor Government moved at least seven agencies from Sydney to a regional centre between 2000 and 2005;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) during that time the then New South Wales Premier Mr Bob Carr confirmed Labor was committed to relocating government jobs to rural and regional areas;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the Victorian Labor Government relocated the Transport Accident Commission to Geelong in 2009, and has commenced relocating Worksafe Victoria to Geelong;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the Keating Labor Government moved the Australian Securities and Investments Commission to Traralgon in the early 1990s;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) unlike its state and federal counterparts in previous years, the current Federal Labor Opposition does not show any interest in supporting the regions;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the Australian Government is in the process of relocating several agencies, many to rural and regional areas, including:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) the Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority to Armidale,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the Grains Research and Development Corporation to Toowoomba, Dubbo, Perth and Adelaide,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) the Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation to Wagga Wagga, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) the Fisheries Research and Development Corporation to Adelaide;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) planning is underway for new regional offices of the Murray-Darling Basin Authority across New South Wales, Victoria, Queensland and South Australia; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) the movement of agricultural agencies to locations will result in unprecedented engagement with farmers, growers, scientists, research experts, business and the community in general.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Williams, standing in the names of Senators McKenzie, Williams and O'Sullivan, be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:45]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>28</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Back, CJ</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Burston, B</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ (teller)</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hinch, D</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, D</name>
                <name>Williams, JR</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Moore, CM</name>
                <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Singh, LM</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentarians' Entitlements</title>
          <page.no>25</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you.</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps the members of the government need to be paying attention to motions a little more.</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, we haven't had this motion. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) senators are paid an annual allowance of $32,000, known as an electorate allowance, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the purpose of this allowance is to cover expenses incurred by a senator in discharging their electoral responsibilities; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on all senators to commit to spending their electorate allowance on their electorate and their electorate responsibilities, rather than using it to top up their already generous salary.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senators from all sides of politics spend their electorate allowances on a number of different areas in the course of their electorate duties, including supporting many worthwhile local community groups and causes. The electorate allowance is determined by the independent Remuneration Tribunal. It is up to each senator to acquit their expenditure with the Australian Taxation Office, consistent with their ruling on such matters, and the government believes that each senator should abide by these requirements.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would be staggered if any—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, what are you doing?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry. I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Di Natale interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Di Natale. I am going to put the motion. Leave was not granted. I just remind senators to be quiet, because Senator Di Natale did not hear the information that I gave him.</para>
<para>The question is that notice of motion No. 226 under general business, standing in the name of Senator Di Natale, be agreed to. I just remind senators that, when the call is given to lock the doors, you should be in your seats.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:50]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>16</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Burston, B</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Hinch, D</name>
                <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                <name>Xenophon, N</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>45</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Back, CJ</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>Moore, CM</name>
                <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Singh, LM</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, D</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Williams, JR</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>26</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes the essential role of social security payments in the budgets of many struggling Australians and Australian families;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) notes the likely unfair impact on individual and family budgets of the Government's proposed cuts, including to Family Tax Benefits, Paid Parental Leave, Newstart, the Energy Supplement, the Pensioner Education Supplement and the Education Entry Payment, and to pensions of certain migrant pensioners;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) opposes the Government's proposed cuts, due to their unfair impact on individual and family budgets; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) calls on the Government to scrap its proposed $50 billion tax cut for banks and other multinational companies, instead of making these harsh and unfair cuts to individual and family budgets.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move an amendment as circulated in the chamber to general business notice of motion No. 227 moved by Senator Watt which relates to adding to the motion a call on the government to reverse the tax cuts to wealthy Australians.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion as moved by Senator Watt be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>26</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Lending to Primary Production Customers Committee</title>
          <page.no>26</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Appointment</title>
            <page.no>26</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That a select committee, to be known as the Select Committee on Lending to Primary Production Customers, be established to inquire into and report on the regulation and practices of financial institutions in relation to primary production industries, including agriculture, fisheries and forestry, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the lending, and foreclosure and default practices, including constructive and non-monetary default processes;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the roles of other service providers to, and agents of, financial institutions, including valuers and insolvency practitioners, and the impact of these services;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the appropriateness of internal complaints handling and dispute management procedures within financial institutions; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the appropriateness of loan contract terms particular to the primary production industries, including loan-to-value ratios and provision of reasonable written notice.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That the committee present its final report on or before 18 October 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) That the committee consist of seven senators:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) three nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) two nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) one nominated by the Leader of the Australian Greens; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) one nominated by the Leader of the Pauline Hanson's One Nation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) That:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) participating members may be appointed to the committee on the nomination of the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate or any minority party or independent senator; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) participating members may participate in hearings of evidence and deliberations of the committee, and have all the rights of members of the committee, but may not vote on any questions before the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) That the presence of a quorum for the committee and any subcommittee be determined in accordance with the provisions of standing order 29.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) That the committee may proceed to the dispatch of business notwithstanding that not all members have been duly nominated and appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) That the committee elect as chair the member nominated by the Leader of Pauline Hanson's One Nation and as deputy chair one of the members nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) That the deputy chair shall act as chair when the chair is absent from a meeting of the committee or the position of chair is temporarily vacant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) That, in the event of an equality of voting, the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, have a casting vote.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) That the committee and any subcommittee have power to send for and examine persons and documents, to move from place to place, to sit in public or in private, notwithstanding any prorogation of the Parliament or dissolution of the House of Representatives, and have leave to report from time to time its proceedings and the evidence taken and such interim recommendations as it may deem fit.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) That the committee be provided with all necessary staff, facilities and resources and be empowered to appoint persons with specialist knowledge for the purposes of the committee with the approval of the President.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) That the committee be empowered to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it, and a daily <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> be published of such proceedings as take place in public.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that general business notice of motion No. 228 moved by Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:58]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>52</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ (teller)</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Singh, LM</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>28</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Myanmar</title>
          <page.no>28</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LUDLAM</name>
    <name.id>I07</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>With great appreciation for the unanimous view of the Senate I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) the deeply concerning United Nations report, released on 3 February 2017, documenting atrocities against the Rohingya people in Myanmar, based on interviews with Rohingya refugees fleeing their home country,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) that the Australian Government has a history of diplomatic and political influence in the region, and is therefore well-placed to play a role in resolving this escalating crisis, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) that the Australian community is becoming more and more concerned about the human rights situation in Myanmar; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) invites the Australian Government to consider:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) calling on the Government of Myanmar to assert religious and ethnic equality of all people in Myanmar, including the persecuted Rohingya people in Rakhine State, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) calling for a United Nations Commission of Inquiry into human rights abuses in Myanmar.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Imports</title>
          <page.no>28</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that notice of motion No. 232 standing in my name have the name of Senator Kim Carr added to it, and I move the motion:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) dumping of imported goods on Australian shores puts the future of sustainable Australian manufacturing and agricultural production at risk,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) dumping of imported goods on Australian shores is harmful to Australian jobs throughout the entire supply chain and future economic diversity of the nation,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) the complexity and cost of Australia's anti-dumping system remains prohibitive to small and medium-sized manufacturers, especially at a time when Australian businesses are already suffering economic loss caused by dumped imports, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) exporters and importers of dumped goods continue to circumvent anti-dumping measures causing Australian manufacturers further harm, placing further Australian jobs at risk and defrauding the Commonwealth of revenue; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) urgently introduce administrative reform to the Australian anti-dumping system to increase the effectiveness of the system with immediate focus on small and medium-sized businesses,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) immediately establish a joint taskforce between the Anti-Dumping Commission and the Australian Border Force to address the problem of circumvention of anti-dumping measures, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) where countervailing measures are not successful, pursue illegal subsidy programs through the WTO disputes settlements process, and join as third-parties such disputes instituted by other member states.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government does not support the motion. Australia's antidumping system is both transparent and robust and is delivering outcomes for small and medium enterprises and larger manufacturers. The government has extensively strengthened and reformed the system over recent years, including reforms to address circumvention behaviour. The Assistant Minister for Industry, Innovation and Science is consulting with industry through the International Trade Remedies Forum to identify opportunities to improve small and medium enterprise access. The Department of Industry, Innovation and Science is also consulting on potential reform and review options.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement of no more than 30 seconds.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for 30 seconds.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I respectfully suggest that the government and the minister talk to Mark Mentha, the administrator of Arrium, and ask them what the impact of dumped low-cost Chinese steel has been on Arrium and Australian steelmakers.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Xenophon standing in the names of senators Xenophon and Carr be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:04]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>36</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Burston, B</name>
                <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                <name>Collins, JMA</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Hinch, D</name>
                <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Moore, CM</name>
                <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Singh, LM</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                <name>Xenophon, N</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>25</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Back, CJ</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ (teller)</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scullion, NG</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, D</name>
                <name>Williams, JR</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>30</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Competition and Consumer Legislation Amendment (Small Business Access to Justice) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1058">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Competition and Consumer Legislation Amendment (Small Business Access to Justice) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>30</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the law in relation to the costs of actions taken by persons who suffer loss or damage as a result of breaches of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Competition and Consumer Legislation Amendment (Small Business Access to Justice) Bill 2017.</inline></para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>30</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum and I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard </inline>and to continue my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Today, Labor introduces the Competition and Consumer Legislation Amendment (Small Business Access to Justice) Bill 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This private senators' bill amends two acts, the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 and the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman Act 2015. The primary aim of the bill is to allow judges in the Federal Court to waive liability for adverse costs to small business private litigants in cases related to the misuse of market power.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill addresses a prominent problem with the operation of section 46 of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 without changing its intention.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The problem is that when private parties litigate breaches of the competition law, the risk of significant adverse cost orders and the time taken to finalise action in the courts have an excessively inhibiting effect on small businesses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These disincentives within the legal system allow the well-resourced legal teams of our larger corporations to stare down potentially legitimate claims from small businesses and suppliers who can't sustain a long legal case and can't risk testing their claim where there is a prospect of adverse costs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The mechanisms, as they stand, can act as an unintended filter keeping legitimate cases out of the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Almost by definition, cases in which the misuse of market power may be at play reflect an asymmetry in the resources and the organisational capacities of the businesses involved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Too many smaller businesses are having to make a decision about calling out bad conduct based on the resources they can invest in the pursuit of a court ruling, rather than on the merits of their case.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Their access to justice is being compromised by the same asymmetries the law is supposed to address.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This issue was addressed by the Harper Competition Review that found small business access to remedies to be wanting, stating:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">"From submissions and consultations with small business, the Panel is convinced that there are significant barriers to small business taking private action to enforce the competition laws"</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Access to Justice</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In recent years, small businesses have consistently been asking: what really are the government's plans? This was the question my predecessor as shadow minister for small business, the member for Greenway, would hear most often over the course of the 44th Parliament. Sadly, with livelihoods at stake, the situation has not changed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">When the current Prime Minister toppled the member for Warringah, he promised leadership.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Many people took the Prime Minister at his word, but we seek to judge him by his actions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And when it comes to key reforms for small and medium sized businesses, the Prime Minister's actions have been few and fainthearted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Prime Minister Turnbull has failed to deliver a coherent plan for our economy. A phoney war on multinational tax avoidance and three word slogans have left many small and medium sized businesses wondering if the Prime Minister is truly in charge of the economy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And they're right to wonder. After all, it's Labor that has been setting a clear economic policy agenda – taking the lead on tackling multinational tax avoidance, and setting out a pathway to fairer superannuation and more affordable housing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We've been making our policy announcements, doing the hard work, doing consultation and announcing detailed policy as the Turnbull government has found itself again and again without an agenda, without thoughtful policy and without an economic strategy. Slogans don't cut it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Like all Australians, small businesses seek confidence and certainty from their government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But the Turnbull government has instead come to them with a confidence trick. The government's proposed "effects test" (which I will return to in more detail) is bad policy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Yes, it is appropriate we discuss the deliberate and intentional misuse of market power by large players, as this hurts competition and small businesses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We know this because Labor put in place the Trade Practices Act under Gough Whitlam.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And we know this because Labor continues to find ways to ensure that Australian consumers can rely on the benefits of competitive markets.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since its inception, the Trade Practices Act 1974 (now the Competition and Consumer Act 2010) has included section 46, a section designed to prevent firms with substantial market power from using that power to eliminate or substantially damage a competitor, prevent the entry of a competitor, or deterring or preventing competition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But it's not just about writing the right laws. It's also about making sure they are enforced.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The problem is not the existing law – but the risks associated with pursuing litigation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It was made clear to us that the biggest barrier in bringing such actions was the threat of adverse cost orders in the event that a case failed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That is why Labor will make it easier for small businesses to bring actions and seek remedies in cases of alleged anti-competitive behaviour.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor's Access to Justice for Small Business policy will empower judges to remove liability for the defendant's legal fees if a small business brings a case in the Federal Court.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Effective competition law should not be about who has the deepest pockets.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This reform will level the playing field - where small and medium businesses allege anti-competitive behaviour, they will be better placed to fight it in the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is good for competition and good for small businesses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The feedback on access to justice has been consistent. The major barrier to private litigation under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 is the potential cost liability to the applicant if a case is lost.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Small businesses typically have limited experience with legal action and little if any experience in the courts. They worry about the prospect that costs will be awarded against them, leaving them liable for their own legal costs as well as those of their competitors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These Federal Court cases are often David versus Goliath, and Goliath has those aforementioned deep pockets and is sure-footed in the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor's reform will waive the liability of private litigants where they can demonstrate that their case has merit and that they are opposing anti-competitive behaviour.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor will permit Federal Court justices to waive the liability of litigants for the legal costs of opponents with deeper pockets in Part IV litigation under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This means that before a case has been moved, and before legal costs have started to build up, the court will have an opportunity to indicate that a case has merit. Once that decision has been made, the small business can proceed to test the law, knowing that a failed case won't leave them accountable for the cost of a big business's legal defence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor will also allow the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman to provide professional assistance to small businesses and their representatives with respect to the merits and likelihood of success of an application for a no adverse costs order.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While this assistance will not amount to a legally binding decision, it will provide more certainty for the private litigants in a forum outside of the courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is in keeping with the ombudsman's remit of assisting small businesses in alternative dispute resolution.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is about protecting the competitive process, and competition is about advancing the interests of consumers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will remove an unnecessary element of jeopardy in the decision making process for small businesses and their representatives as they consider seeking recourse to private litigation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will mean that those who resort to uncompetitive practices, such as price-fixing or the misuse of market power, will be subject to closer scrutiny.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will remove one of the biggest barriers to bringing litigation, the potential liability for adverse costs of powerful vested interests.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Facilitating private litigation where there is a legitimate case to be made about anti-competitive behaviour is good for competition, good for consumers and good for the currently anaemic case law that has defined the terms in which courts can judge the misuse of market power.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It allows small businesses to go forward in certain instances with confidence that even if they lose, they won't be hit by a multi-million dollar cost order for the big business's costs. That's in the public interest.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We see this in other jurisdictions and other places, where litigation in the public interest is valued. And here, under this policy, a number of cases will go forward that wouldn't have gone forward before.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a modest, sensible proposal to empower small businesses to pursue failures in the competitive process.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Detail in the b ill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 of this Bill amends the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman Act 2015 to add the meaning of conduct under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010, and define the assistance the Ombudsman may give to parties seeking no adverse cost orders in proceedings in relation to contraventions of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Parliament passed the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman Act 2015 and Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Act 2015 in 2015 to establish the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The ombudsman commenced operations on 11 March 2016. The ombudsman replaces the former Office of the Australian Small Business Commissioner. The role of the Australian Small Business and Family Enterprise Ombudsman (ASBFEO) is to:</para></quote>
<list>Advocate for small businesses and family enterprises;</list>
<list>Provide access to dispute resolution services; and</list>
<list>Ensure government policies are small business friendly.</list>
<quote><para class="block">To assist in the process of a private litigant requesting a 'no adverse cost order', this bill will allow the Small Business Ombudsman to provide an initial assessment on whether a private litigant is likely to be granted a no adverse cost order.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The representatives of small business private litigants will be able to submit their proposal to the ombudsman and receive professional assistance and advice with respect to the likelihood of success. This includes advice on the arguments that might be made and the evidence that might be adduced to satisfy a court that a no adverse costs order should be made. It also includes assistance with preparing arguments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While this will not be legally binding, the ombudsman will assist small businesses in better understanding the merits of their case and their prospects of successful application for a no adverse costs order under the Competition and Consumer Act 2010.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 of this Bill amends the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 to allow no adverse cost orders in certain circumstances in litigation undertaken under the Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Allowing judges in the Federal Court to waive liability to adverse costs of small business private litigants will empower private litigants under Part IV of the Competition and Consumer Act to bring meritorious litigation without the prospect of prohibitive legal fees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">At an early stage of the court case, the private litigant will be able to request a 'no adverse cost order', preventing large legal fees of the defendant being transferred to the litigant. The judge will then assess the initial arguments and decide whether there is merit to the case. If merit is established, any liability for the defendant's legal fees will be waived.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The court may make a no adverse costs order in circumstances where:</para></quote>
<list>the action has a reasonable chance of success;</list>
<list>the matter may have significance beyond the litigant (such as that there are likely to be other similar cases); and</list>
<list>where the financial disparity of the applicant relative to the respondent is such that a respondent could use a cost order as a deterrent to undertaking litigation.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Labor is the party of competition policy</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This policy complements the other pro-consumer and pro-competition policies Labor took to the 2016 election – this was a space left conspicuously vacant by those opposite.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor proposed to:</para></quote>
<list>Increase civil penalties under the Australian Consumer Law from $1.1 million to $10 million, bringing penalties in-line with the competition provisions of the Competition and Consumer Act 2010;</list>
<list>Adopt the European Union's (EU) penalty system for anti-competitive conduct, which is based on 30 per cent of the annual sales of the relevant product or service, multiplied by the number of years the infringement took place, limited to the greater of 10 per cent of annual turnover, or $10 million;</list>
<list>Use some of the revenues from increased penalties to increase the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission's (ACCC) litigation budget from its current level of $24.5 million to a maximum of twice that level ($49 million);</list>
<list>Amend the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 to give a completely independent market studies function to the ACCC so that it can explore public interest issues such as pricing discrepancies and increased market concentration;</list>
<list>Amend section 76 of the Competition and Consumer Act 201<inline font-style="italic">0</inline> to allow the Court to apply higher penalties for conduct that targets or disproportionately impacts disadvantaged Australians;</list>
<list>Include a requirement in the Competition and Consumer Act 2010 that the ACCC prioritise investigations of conduct that targets or disproportionately impacts disadvantaged Australians;</list>
<list>Task government to investigate the impacts of increased market concentration on income inequality in Australia and produce policy recommendations on how the negative effects of market concentration can be mitigated; and</list>
<list>Encourage states and territories to include competition principles in planning and zoning legislation, as recommended by the Harper Review, with a specific focus on shortfalls of appropriately zoned land for key services in disadvantaged communities.</list>
<quote><para class="block">This bill, and the policies I've just mentioned, all build on Labor's proud competition policy legacy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Labor Party is the party of the Trade Practices Act 1974, the National Competition Policy, the Australian Consumer Law and the criminalisation of cartels.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australians can trust Labor to get it right when it comes to competition and consumer protection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government's dangerous 'effects test'</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An 'effects test' is shorthand for a test that looks at whether conduct engaged in by a firm with a substantial degree of market power has the purpose, effect or likely effect of substantially lessening competition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is dangerous economic policy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The effects test risks making business afraid to compete, which ultimately hurts consumers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will create a legal risk for a business every time it seeks to lower prices for its customers. Consumers are the losers under the effects test.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Council of Small Business Australia (COSBOA) have also set out a concern that "the wording… will create a 'lawyers picnic' as predicted by the opponents of the effects test".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor welcomes strong competition policy but it must be informed and enforced. The Government's package is neither.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">What we see are dangerous legislative proposals without addressing either the resources of the ACCC or making it easier for small businesses to litigate in their own private capacity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since 1974 at least 10 inquiries into Australia's competition laws have considered the proposal of an effects test and have rejected it. Apart from Professor Harper's review, only one other inquiry has ever recommended it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In submissions to the Harper review, the effects test has been described as 'legally unworkable', something that 'will chill competition' and something that 'will create uncertainty for business'.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes will deter job-creating investment in Australia by adding to the new layers of red tape and barriers to investment which have already been imposed by the Liberal-National government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Little wonder the government's own former Minister for Trade and Investment Andrew Robb was opposed to this latest anti-investment measure.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Turnbull government's proposed effects test is a move to satisfy internal politics.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is not about policy. A level headed analysis of the effects test shows Malcolm Turnbull is using competition policy as a political prop.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Barnaby Joyce has become the government's chief economic spokesperson. This is detrimental to the Australian consumers and the broader economy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">What will the effects test mean?</para></quote>
<list>Consumer prices: The day this decision was announced, Barnaby Joyce said selling milk for $1 litre was too low. The price should be higher. In the same press conference, he raised how milk was sold in China for up to $11. This is just the start of how consumer prices, the everyday costs of living, will hit families after the introduction of an effects test;</list>
<list>Uncertainty: Businesses need certainty to plan and make decisions. Litigation over the effect of their decisions will heighten uncertainty and make it difficult for businesses to plan ahead. This will impact on investment and jobs; and</list>
<list>Innovation and growth: The Prime Minister talks a lot about innovation. However Australia's largest employer, Wesfarmers, has said they are deeply concerned about the negative impact of this decision on innovation. This will make it harder for businesses to test new products.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Conclusion</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The only people who need to be nervous about the Access to Justice policy in this private senators' bill, are those who are systematically misusing their market power, safe in the knowledge that their disadvantaged competitors don't have the resources to bring the law to bear on them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I encourage all those who consider themselves friends to small business to support this bill and help us deliver greater access to justice for Australia's thousands of small businesses.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>34</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw general business notice of motion No. 230.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>34</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Strengthening Communities Grants</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) pursuant to a decision of the 2016-17 Federal Budget, the Department of Social Services is currently undertaking a redesign of the Strengthening Communities Grants, to be known as the Strong and Resilient Communities Grants from 1 January 2018,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) the Strengthening Communities Grants currently provide around $18 million per year to projects which address disadvantage and build opportunity in communities around Australia,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) under the current Grants program, there is a specific funding stream for volunteer management programs, which in 2017 will fund volunteer support services in local communities to a total of around $7.4 million,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) the Department of Social Services has proposed that this volunteer management stream of grants funding will be abolished from 1 January 2018, meaning volunteer support services will be forced to compete with other worthwhile community services and removing any guarantee that they will be funded at all,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (v) this is the latest reduction in funding allocated to volunteer management since the decision was made to transfer responsibility for volunteering from the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet to the Department of Social Services in 2014, a move which volunteering peak bodies and representatives opposed,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (vi) the national peak body for volunteering, Volunteering Australia, states that this move will "rip the heart out of local volunteer support services", organisations which play an important role in Australian communities by leading, enabling and building capacity to recruit and retain volunteers in a wide variety of organisations and services, from the human services and the arts to environmental, animal welfare and sporting groups,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (vii) approximately 5.8 million Australians, or 31 per cent of the population, volunteer, with Dr Lisel O'Dwyer of Flinders University estimating their annual contribution to Australia as $290 billion,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (viii) volunteering plays an important role in delivering the priorities of the Government, with volunteers contributing many thousands of hours per year to the aged care workforce, the disability services, schools and hospitals, art galleries, libraries and sporting clubs, and with volunteering often acting as a driver in bolstering economic participation, mitigating isolation and loneliness and increasing social inclusion and participation,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ix) while volunteering is defined as "time willingly given, for the common good and without financial gain", it does not happen free, and requires the investment of resources in volunteer support services in order to maintain a professional, responsive and efficient volunteer workforce,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (x) the withdrawal of funding to volunteer management services will threaten the viability of the thousands of volunteering organisations and will have a huge impact on the community; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) congratulate community-based volunteer support services for the work that they do to support strong, healthy and resilient Australian communities through an effective and professional volunteer workforce, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) recognise the importance of funding volunteer management services and Volunteering Australia's campaign to retain funding for volunteer management as part of the Federal Budget.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave of one minute is granted.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government recognises the importance volunteering plays in delivering its priorities and values the work of volunteers who give their time without financial gain. There are no funding cuts to the grants program, with $18 million remaining available for community organisations to help build the enabling structures which are vital to well-functioning, cohesive and resilient communities. Volunteering is one of a number of community enablers that will continue to be supported. As well as this, and in recognition of the valuable contribution of Australia's six million volunteers, the government will continue to separately fund the $10 million volunteer grants program annually.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>35</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Publications Committee, Select Committee on Red Tape</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>35</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received letters requesting changes in the membership of committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion to vary the membership of committees.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Document was not available at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>35</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economics Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>35</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the chair of the Ecomomics Legislation Committee, Senator Hume, I present the report of the committee on the provisions of the Competition and Consumer Amendment (Misuse of Market Power) Bill 2016, together with the document presented to the committee.</para>
<para>Ordered that the reports be printed.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>35</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r5799">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>35</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017. I would indicate to the Senate that the opposition supports this bill. As was stated by the member for McMahon in the other place earlier this week, we will support its passage without hindrance or delay. This bill seeks to remove the entitlements and expenses of retired parliamentarians, namely the Life Gold Pass. The bill removes the pass from all current passholders and future recipients in line with the views of the Australian community.</para>
<para>This reform was announced almost three years ago by the former Prime Minister, the member for Warringah. Labor then, and Labor now, supports this reform. This expensive and ongoing entitlement should be removed immediately. It is not enough to talk about restoring faith in the political system; we have a duty to act. Labor understands that duty and will support this bill and its timely passage through the parliament.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In opposing the retrospective parts of this legislation, I at least remain true to Liberal principles and to the principles of my party in fierce opposition to any retrospective legislation, no matter how popular the cause might be on any particular occasion or in the media cycle at this point in time.</para>
<para>Retrospective legislation is never good law. Indeed, the <inline font-style="italic">Legislation Handbook</inline>, issued to ministers by the Department of the Prime Minister and Cabinet, says this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Provisions that have a retrospective operation adversely affecting rights or imposing liabilities are to be included only in exceptional circumstances and on explicit policy authority …</para></quote>
<para>Retrospective laws have been described in the <inline font-style="italic">Federal Law Review</inline> as 'unjust, undemocratic, unreliable and contrary to human rights, individual autonomy, the rule of law and the Constitution'. The legislative principle often articulated is that persons and citizens are entitled to regulate their affairs on the assumption that their current circumstances are settled. That is why I have never consciously supported legislation that was retrospective in a serious way.</para>
<para>The recent changes to superannuation are a case in point. There were two elements of those proposed changes that I was told by constituents and believed myself did retrospectively alter arrangements put in place by those who had saved for their own retirement. When these laws were proposed to be changed retrospectively, I advised the Treasurer—and publicly—that, if these two retrospective elements were not changed, I would be voting against the legislation. Fortuitously, the Treasurer changed the legislation so that, whilst it did prospectively reduce some people's benefits, these new legislated changes were prospective, not retrospective. It is a sad reflection on public life in Australia that, when I opposed proposed retrospective legislation in the superannuation debate, my stand was all but ignored; when I oppose government retrospective legislation on this occasion, I am condemned by the commentariat.</para>
<para>People are also telling me that recent changes to pensions are retrospective. It is my understanding, but I am prepared to be convinced otherwise, that these are prospective—that is, they are taking away benefits in the future, but they do not change arrangements that applied in the past. Retrospective legislation has always been anathema to the Liberal Party, and I am distressed that my party, in this particular instance, has ignored a basic principle of our party. It does not matter that those who are retrospectively damaged belong to a group or genre in the community who are currently so poorly regarded. Retrospectivity is bad no matter who bears the brunt of the retrospectivity. Regrettably, the Scrutiny of Bills Committee in their report on this legislation entirely missed the point. It is not the retrospectivity back to 13 May 2014 that is the problem but rather the retrospectivity back to 1918.</para>
<para>I now turn to the question of why the government and Labor are introducing the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017 now, notwithstanding its obvious retrospectivity. This retrospective legislation is not about saving the budget. It is not about budget savings. According to the government, the saving is a massive $5 million. According to other figures, the saving is $1 million to $2 million. Whilst that is a lot of money, in the context of a government which every year spends upwards of $300 billion, the savings from the retrospective cancellation of this benefit for elderly retired politicians are not going to make one iota of difference to the budget. In fact, the new independent parliamentary remuneration tribunal, which we will be dealing with after this legislation, will itself cost some $12 million to set up, so the saving of $1 million or $2 million by taking from a few dozen or even 100-plus elderly ex-politicians is not going to make one iota of difference to the budget at all. This measure is pure populism.</para>
<para>Mark Latham, when he was the Labor leader and struggling at the polls, thought he could curry favour with the electorate by introducing some legislation to take away part of the remuneration package for parliamentarians. It did Mark Latham no good whatsoever. It did not garner him one vote, and he passed into history. John Howard, when he was struggling at the polls, tried the same thing, and, similarly, this made not one iota of difference to Howard's popularity. It did not gain him one vote, and he subsequently lost both the election and his own seat. Julia Gillard stopped the gold pass in 2012, and look what difference it made to her support in the 2013 election: not one vote was gained for her. More recently, Tony Abbott was struggling at the polls, and he announced further curtailments of remuneration packages for parliamentarians. History shows that that did not do Tony one iota of good. It did not garner him one vote. I say the same to Mr Shorten and to Mr Turnbull: if you think that going along with this populist approach on this issue is going to win you just one vote, history shows that you are sadly mistaken. When we start to run this country by what is popular rather than what is right, I fear for the future of Australia.</para>
<para>I now turn to the trolls of social media, the commentariat and the lazy journalists and subeditors who, knowingly, falsely accused me of self-interest and of opposing this legislation for my own benefit. I want to respond to them—not that any of them will ever print or broadcast any of this. This has nothing to do with me. It will give me no financial benefit or other benefit. This false criticism of me has been very loud, but, when a Labor senator was proven to obtain a very personal benefit by having a Chinese company pay his own personal bills, from the same accusers there was barely a murmur.</para>
<para>My message to the Labor Party and the Greens political party is this: tell your legions of trolls not to waste their time sending me their hate mail. It will never influence me in what I believe to be right—perhaps not popular, but right. I know why the Greens and the Labor Party have unleashed their attack dogs on me, and that is because, after 27 years in this place, I more than most can expose both the Labor Party and the Greens for the frauds and charlatans they are in a political and policy sense. I do this continuously in this chamber, and I know that both the Labor Party and the Greens loathe me for it. They love to seize upon anything they think may hasten my departure from this chamber, because they think that, the moment I go, no-one will be around to remember the fraudulent hypocrisy of both parties over many years. Sadly for the Labor Party and the Greens, I will be around for a while yet.</para>
<para>I was never interested in the gold pass personally. My opposition is on behalf of a small group of elderly retired politicians—Liberal, Labor, Democrats and Greens—who have no voice in this debate. Would I ever access the gold pass? Why is it of no personal benefit to me? Firstly, it applies only to retired politicians, and I have no intention of retiring; I will probably be carried out of here in a pine box. So it is of no interest to me personally. But, if I do eventually retire, can I tell you that, after spending the last 27 years of my life flying seven hours from my home down to Canberra and seven hours back each week that parliament sits just to get to my work, the last thing I want to do when I leave this place is get on an aeroplane. I will not go into the use of the Life Gold Pass by former parliamentarians. Suffice to say that many Australians who earnestly seek visits, lectures and speeches across all parts of Australia from former parliamentarians will now be denied, on abolition of the gold pass, that opportunity. This impacts on those living outside the capital cities more than anyone else.</para>
<para>The Life Gold Pass was an arrangement made with politicians, I am told, as far back as 1918, when the pay and conditions for parliamentarians were nowhere near what they are today. Even when I entered parliament 27 years ago, the pay for politicians was not what it is today. But I have to say that, for those of us on our side of the chamber, the pay was never the reason for entering the parliament. Most of my colleagues on this side of the chamber at least—and perhaps on the other side—would have been far better off financially if they had stayed in the occupations and professions they had prior to coming into parliament. You do not enter parliament for the money. Every single parliamentarian, I am sure—certainly all of those on my side—is here because they believe they can make a difference for Australia. The shock jocks and the lazy journalists and subeditors churn out the populist lines because it is easy to do so, and it always gets an energetic response from a small section of the community—a small section who complain a lot but never offer themselves for election to parliament, because they have never had the energy, the dedication and the commitment to do the hard yards and get elected in the first place, and to then work for something less than $50 an hour for all hours of the day and night, often at least six days a week, often for up to 48 weeks a year, in a job where there is no privacy, no down time.</para>
<para>By comparison to their peers in the public service, in the professions, in business, in the trades, in agriculture—and I suspect even in the union movement—they are not as well paid. Not many tradesmen would work for under $80 per hour. The charge-out rate for a solicitor in a small country town that I visited recently was $292 an hour. I would be intrigued to find out what a taxpayer funded ABC presenter like Barrie Cassidy receives for his two hours work a week. Some in the commentariat are saying, 'If you don't like the pay and conditions, resign from parliament.' I have never complained about my pay and conditions, and the day I do I will resign. No-one forces me to do this job and never has, but I continue on because every day of the week people come to me seeking my help. Every day I work to benefit my community and my state, and for northern Australia. So I say to the hate mailers and the dishonest journalists: if you have such strong views and think that the current group of parliamentarians is so corrupt and dishonest, why do you not offer yourself for election to parliament so that you can come in here and cure the ills that you see in all other current parliamentarians?</para>
<para>Could I return to the facts about the gold pass, rather than the lies that the commentariat continually publish to misrepresent the facts. The Life Gold Pass was banned prospectively three or four years ago, so all politicians who were not eligible for it prior to 2014 were never going to be eligible for it. But, at the time, the changes to the gold pass eligibility were accompanied by changes to the pay structure so that parliamentarians were then paid much, much more—more in line with the work they do—and to compensate for the removal of some benefits like the Life Gold Pass. But those who had finished their service in parliament prior to that time were not so compensated. So this legislation does not apply to current politicians, only to a few former parliamentarians, and takes away part of the conditions of employment retrospectively, without any corresponding compensation for taking of a property right.</para>
<para>However, if we are to govern by what is popular or not popular at any period of time, and if that is the position of the government and the opposition, then why are we only partly rolling over to populism? Why are we exempting former prime ministers from this ban and allowing them to continue to use the Life Gold Pass forever? Quite frankly, I think they should continue to receive the benefit, because I know it was given to them at the time they were prime ministers and I know most of them use the benefit responsibly, usually to fulfil engagements that arise because of their former positions. The same principle applies to former treasurers, former foreign ministers, former agriculture ministers, former health ministers and, I might say, to former long-serving backbenchers, who are often asked to travel to meetings to speak on matters on which they have some expertise. I am sure a former Greens leader uses his gold pass to go around spreading his message. But I know the public think the main offenders of this so-called abuse of the system are former prime ministers, and the statistics show they are the biggest users. So why are we exempting them from the ban? Perhaps, from Labor's point of view, it is because there are four former Labor prime ministers and only one former Liberal Prime Minister.</para>
<para>I will be moving amendments in the committee stage to legislate to remove the Life Gold Pass benefit from everyone. I gave everyone notice of this two or three days ago. And I say I think this is wrong, but if I am a minority of one in this parliament who believes that retrospective legislation is wrong then I cannot understand why this parliament will not at least be consistent and finish the Life Gold Pass for all former parliamentarians, not just some. I cannot fathom the logic behind allowing Julia Gillard, perhaps Australia's worst prime minister for a three-year term, to have a gold pass for the rest of her life, while someone like Peter Costello, who did magnificent work for Australia for 13 years, is banned.</para>
<para>Having retrospectively abolished the Life Gold Pass because of populist pressure, I am quite sure that it will not be long before trips by ministers to Europe and North America are called into question. For example, I note the Deputy Prime Minister made a pre-Christmas visit to Berlin. I know the good work that he did on behalf of Australia there, but populism will question it, think that it was just a pre-Christmas junket and demand that, if he has to go in future, the Deputy Prime Minister travels economy class to do his important and essential work in representing Australia at meetings around the world.</para>
<para>What do the punters think of the queues of big white limousines that line up outside Parliament House every day? Populism will decree that they should go, too, and that ministers and politicians should take a bus or a taxi, without any thought for the security reasons that make this service essential. Instead of those big flash offices in the electorate, perhaps politicians should just meet constituents in the privacy of their own homes. And, if we are to follow the populist approach, why bother with those hated, money-grabbing, self-serving politicians at all? Perhaps Hitler and Stalin or Idi Amin had the right idea: do not bother about a parliament and you do not have to bother about those pesky parliamentarians at all.</para>
<para>I repeat, service in this place is never about money and so-called perks. It is about doing what every single politician believes is right for Australia. I suspect that there will be no other politician that will have the courage to oppose the elements of this populist legislation that are retrospective, but I would certainly hope that those who espouse the populist cause and believe retrospectivity is not a problem for 100 or so former politicians who have no voice will at least support my amendments to include all former politicians, including prime ministers, in the ban. I will be fascinated to hear the logic on why the government and Labor would not support my amendments.</para>
<para>To summarise my position, I will support those parts of this bill that are prospective—that is, not retrospective. I will be moving amendments to remove the retrospective elements of the bill. If that fails, I will move an amendment to include all former MPs in the ban, including prime ministers. If that fails, I will then move an amendment to restrict the gold card pass to former prime ministers to a benefit that is commensurate to his or her length of service as prime minister.</para>
<para>In closing, can I again emphasise my total opposition to any retrospective legislation. If I am the only one in this parliament that believes retrospective legislation is bad, can I then ask the other parliamentarians, in the cause of consistency, to at least ensure that the ban of the Life Gold Pass applies to every single former politician and does not exempt some.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GRIFF</name>
    <name.id>76760</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017 is all about stopping something that I believe should never have occurred in the first place. The gold pass scheme has always been an overly generous and, frankly, poorly justified use of taxpayer funds. It should never have been introduced, and once it became apparent that it was not always being used in the spirit that was intended, it should have been immediately axed. My colleague Nick Xenophon has been opposing the gold pass for some time. Like him, I agree that there is no valid reason for having it, and it needs to go.</para>
<para>I get that some already retired and soon-to-retire MPs are angry that the prized gold pass will be snatched from their grasp. But all need to remember we are here for the people, and the people expect us to pull our weight as much as the next person and do the right thing with what is their—the taxpayers—money. Expecting ongoing largesse at the taxpayers' expense and kicking up a stink when you do not get it is symptomatic of the sense of entitlement that must end. It does nothing for our credibility in the public's eye and has only served to help erode the public's faith in politicians.</para>
<para>The gold pass scheme most certainly does not pass the 'pub test'. There have been way too many instances of abuse, where former MPs have used their gold pass to go on holidays and to advance their own interests or lobbying businesses, rather than using it for travel that serves the public interest. And let's face it, the general public does not feel beholden to MPs once they have retired from politics, so there should not be any expectation of ongoing benefits. While it is not our preferred position, this bill means the gold pass will now only be available to former and future prime ministers and their spouses when their travel passes a public benefit test. That is fair enough.</para>
<para>This small reform will free up a lazy $1 million or so per year, which could be used towards more deserving programs that can better serve the community. For example, $1 million a year could be put towards gambling addiction services, community broadcasting, regional infrastructure or rural counselling services. There is a lot of good that can be done with that money. But we should not stop there. Why don't all MPs on short flights book economy airline seats instead of business? That alone would save many millions of taxpayer dollars and give MPs the opportunity to mix with the very people who voted for them. It is all about doing the right thing and reining in waste.</para>
<para>While I am on this topic, there most certainly needs to be a thorough rethink of the parliamentary entitlements system. The current system is confusing, complex and contradictory. It is no wonder many MPs fall foul of the rules, especially if they neglect to consider what the person on the street might make of their claim, legitimately made or not. 'Choppergate' should have been the last straw but it was not. We need to simplify the system and we need to have greater scrutiny and more deterrents to prevent the temptation to fudge claims. That is why, in 2015, my colleague Senator Xenophon introduced a bill that would have subjected travel claims to independent oversight, and that would have compelled MPs to disclose their expenses on a monthly basis and pay much higher penalties for transgressions. While those reforms failed to win support at the time, it is pleasing to see the government is finally moving in this same direction and adopting some of the same measures. There is still a lot more to do, but this bill to end the gold pass free ride is at least a step in the right direction. The government's move to set up an independent body to oversee travel expense claims is another big positive.</para>
<para>The independent parliamentary expenses authority, which is to be established through a separate bill, will advise on and audit travel expenses of parliamentarians and their staff. NXT will be scrutinising the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill closely to ensure it has the scope required to do its job effectively. The authority is ostensibly modelled on the UK's Independent Parliamentary Standards Authority, which has substantial investigative powers, and this is what we need. The UK's authority publishes claims so that they are open to public scrutiny and regularly subjects each MP's claiming patterns to data analysis to detect any red flags. Speaking on the ABC last month, the authority's chief executive acknowledged that it was not only a 'powerful regulatory tool' but that it was also a 'really, really powerful preventative tool'. It is not a perfect beast but it appears to be doing its intended job of acting as a deterrent to misuse.</para>
<para>We welcome the government's speedy work to get these two bills into parliament as they will go some way towards improving accountability. However, if the Prime Minister is serious about truly reforming the travel entitlements system and getting snouts out of the trough, he will also fully implement the recommendations made in last year's review of parliamentary entitlements and go further by doubling the penalties for breaches and quadrupling the penalties for repeat offenders, as my colleague Senator Xenophon and NXT has advocated. These measures, combined, would hopefully encourage MPs to be much more conservative and cautious about how they spend the public's money. To that end, we urge the Prime Minister to continue on this path and reign in the scope of entitlements, as he has indicated he intends to do, and to introduce tough legislation to make this happen sooner rather than later.</para>
<para>We want to see a clamp down that means MPs will no longer be able to use the reunion travel provisions for interstate family holidays. We would also expect that MPs would no longer be able to disguise personal travel as parliamentary business by tacking on a meeting during the trip—a loophole that has caught out a number of senior MPs and ministers who should have known better and who no doubt now regret their oversight. These much needed reforms would go a long way to preventing the type of circus we saw in early January, where the former health minister quit the front bench over her travel claims to the Gold Coast. Whilst she maintaining she had done nothing wrong, it is likely the system is what really let her down.</para>
<para>Work travel expenses are not gifts. We in the Nick Xenophon Team will continue to push for reforms that meet community expectations, reduce waste and hold those who flout the rules to account. We will continue to push for an entitlements system where transparency and accountability are paramount. To use a term coined by my colleague Senator Xenophon, the 'gravy plane' is circling the runway; it is now time to bring it in to land.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017. The gold pass is a 99-year saga. It was 1918 when the scheme was first adopted. For decades and decades it rolled on probably because the public did not know about it, did not know how it worked. In the past couple of decades, the public have the become increasingly aware, increasingly concerned with MPs making decisions about their own allowances and about them voting on what they should be. The gold pass, the very name, sounds elitist. The very name smacks that we are out of touch. Really, what is happening here today is a victory for public opinion. We now have this legislation before us because it has become untenable for any party to keep saying: let's keep this bit of the gold pass; let's keep that bit—there is one little bit that is still being kept, and I will come back to it.</para>
<para>As I said, 99 years it has been rolling on and it is worth recapping how it has played out in the last 18 years or so because it is informative of this place and informative of why there is such deep cynicism amongst the public about how politicians work. I am very proud of how the Greens have handled this but, I acknowledge, this damages all politicians and the very institution of our parliament. Since 2002, we have seen responses to growing public concern about the scheme. In 2002 the reach of the gold pass was reduced to limit retired MPs to 25 return flights a year. In 2012, it was reduced again to 10 return flights. But interestingly, the Gillard government was in office at that time and they decided in that year to wind the whole scheme back to apply to MPs who retired after 2012. Why were the changes being made? Because the scandals kept breaking. I will make that point in the debate about the gold pass bill and in the next piece of legislation to be considered about setting up an authority.</para>
<para>Tragically, the history of parliamentary allowances is one of scandals. Periodically, the scandals break and the three pieces of legislation that we are considering are not going to stop that. We still need to go further. We still only have half measures—even though the Greens welcome them, have supported them and have called for them for a long time.</para>
<para>We are up to 2012, when the Gillard government was calling for the whole scheme to be wound up for MPs who retired after 2012. The 2013 election came along, the Gillard government was out and the Abbott government was in. We then had the 2014 budget. In that notorious budget that would have done so much damage to Australia, and certainly done damage to the coalition, was actually a commitment to further reduce the gold pass to all former members except prime ministers, which is what we have now. What we are dealing with now comes from the 2014-15 budget more than 2½ years, nearly three years ago.</para>
<para>What then becomes interesting is that the coalition government failed to act on it. It did not take the legislation through both houses, despite having the cross-party support that would have ensured the passage of the legislation. Clearly, there is an understanding in some quarters of parliament that this is just not good enough. It has to change. I imagine there are MPs in all parties who honestly believe that this has to change. Some of them would have been reacting to public opinion. It gets to the point of recognising legislation is needed, and legislation is moved, but the government does not do what it could have done and had the numbers to do: move it through both houses.</para>
<para>Then Mr Turnbull comes in; he becomes Prime Minister. He then apparently commits to it, but drags the chain. We had that situation that some of you might remember last year, where firstly the responsible minister, Minister Scott Ryan, promised that the bill will be introduced before Christmas. But then, lo and behold, Prime Minister Turnbull said that we are too busy. Remember that time? Senators would have to remember that period last year, when it was like the coalition were treading water because they did not have enough legislation before the parliament. It is a situation that happens now and again. They were waiting for key bills to come from the House of Representatives. Clearly, there was time. We can always make time, particularly for something as important as this. It did not happen.</para>
<para>Now, it is happening. Why is it happening? Over the Christmas period, again, there were more scandals. There were more scandals, this time involving a government minister, the health minister. It involved trips to investment properties and all sorts of things. We can relive all of those others scandals that have occurred. I will not go through all of them now—I will do that when I speak on the next legislation—but there have been some really unsavoury ones involving weddings, trips to polo matches and trips to buy investment properties, where people used their travel allowances to help to do it. The scandals put the focus back on how the system works.</para>
<para>Particularly, the stand-out, very obvious one—the legislation was sitting there—is this gold pass. The good news is that the government has decided to bring the legislation through, but do they still really want the gold pass to be alive for 100 years or up to 99 years? Now is the time to end it completely. That is why the Greens are moving amendments that would remove Prime Ministers from getting the gold pass. That is the whole box and dice that should happen here. It should end now, otherwise the government is going to come to regret it. There is no justification for keeping this going. That is the Greens approach: the gold pass should now be put in the dustbin of history. I would say that that would be a small step to restoring public confidence in how MPs undertake their work. It would be an achievement.</para>
<para>It is an issue that we have given considerable attention to. I know a number of other senators have given attention to it over time. It looks like we are all on the same page with what is before us, but we need to go further. Again, let us remember what has accompanied those many scandals involving MPs misusing their allowances is that the government of the day then calls an inquiry. All those inquiries have made recommendations about the very issue that we are dealing with and how long it has taken. The gold pass has been around for 99 years and many people have benefited. It now does not have the confidence of the public, it is not needed and it brings discredit to us all. It should be wound up and it should be wound up completely.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BERNARDI</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>From the outset, in a brief contribution to this debate, I have to state my distaste for retrospective legislation. I do not think it is appropriate for governments of any stripe to pursue it because it disadvantages people who go into circumstances with the expectation of certainty. However, I must say that the public demand for changes to the life gold pass is entirely appropriate. I must also add that the reason we are here dealing with this in a legislative capacity is because those who had received the benefit of the life gold pass and other post-parliamentary benefits, for service in this place or in the other place in years past, overextended the mark and sought to entrench their claims in law via the High Court. I will have a little bit more to say about that in a moment. It has made legislative amendment necessary rather than the agreement that the entitlement should be reduced to zero or one or two trips along the way.</para>
<para>Notwithstanding that caveat and reservations about retrospective legislation, I intend to support this. I also intend to support Senator Macdonald's amendments. That is on the principle that far too often in this place we decide that we are going to enact bills, the loss of privileges or some negative aspects of whatever we do up here, and that is always going to affect other people. We are always carving out exemptions. Sometimes we are carving them out for ourselves, which is wrong, and sometimes we are carving them out for other sections of society. If we are serious about bringing parliamentary benefits into line with public expectations, we will take steps to remove the excesses as fully and broadly as we can.</para>
<para>When Senator Macdonald moves his amendment to say we are going to get rid of the gold pass for all former politicians, I will be supporting that. I will also support his amendment, which is to limit the benefits of the gold pass to former Prime Ministers—should Senator Macdonald's first amendment not be successful—on the basis of the length of service, because I think that is once again a step in the right direction. However, I am also going to be moving three amendments of my own. Some of them may not be necessary depending on the success or otherwise of Senator Macdonald's amendments, but I will foreshadow them.</para>
<para>I believe that the office of Prime Minister has been unbelievably diminished by the activities and actions of some people in this place over the last 10 years. We have had a revolving door of Prime Ministers. I do not know anyone who thought or really would have envisaged that we could have five Prime Ministers over the course of 10 years. If we believe that the office of Prime Minister occupies a respected position in our community—and it should—and we want to ensure that it maintains its dignity and value and respect by the general public and that prime ministers do have a role to play in public life, we need to send a very clear message that they have to actually do some dignity to the office themselves. And their colleagues need to lend support to that, rather than just have what I have described as the 'hunger games' of trying to climb that big mountain, to say, 'I was Prime Minister', whether for a day, a month or a year, and then you can live off the fat of the Australian people for the remainder of your life. I think that is wrong.</para>
<para>Barry O'Farrell, the former premier of New South Wales, thought it was wrong. When he became premier he said of the revolving door of the Labor disease, as it was then, in New South Wales—installing premiers until their use-by date, after a few months or a couple of years—that there has to be a qualifying period for any postparliamentary entitlements accruing or affording to former premiers. He set that time I think as five years for a premier to have served, and then it was limited to one year postparliamentary. There is also a Liberal precedent, I think, in Western Australia, where current Premier Barnett—and I do not know whether this has been enacted—said that a premier had to serve a minimum period before receiving some postparliamentary benefits on the basis of being premier. He was taking away the office and staff and was reducing it to a secretarial service for a fixed period.</para>
<para>Our counterparts in New Zealand, who are held up as the great economic modellers, with transparency and everything else, have done a very similar thing over there. Now, they do have generous benefits for their former prime ministers. I think that is reasonable, given that there is a status of the office and they go into the annals of history, but they do have to serve a minimum qualifying period.</para>
<para>So, I will be moving some amendments that if a Prime Minister is to be afforded the Gold Pass they need to have served for four continuous years in that role. That means basically that every Prime Minister living up until post the Howard Prime Ministership would be included and eligible for continuing benefits in this regard. So, we will not be disadvantaging those who have served our country for a period of four years or more. But it also means that the four prime ministers we have had since then—or five, if you count the double period of Mr Rudd—would not be eligible for parliamentary Gold Pass travel, because none of them have met the four-year qualifying period. I think that is entirely in keeping with the expectations of the Australian people, because I do not know too many who think that we have been particularly well served over the past decade in politics.</para>
<para>The second amendment I will be moving is in relation to the other postparliamentary benefits that are afforded to former prime ministers. These of course are not legislated, to my knowledge. They are actually at the whim of the Prime Minister of the day. You can always bet that you want to treat your predecessor as you want to be treated by your successor, whenever that comes. And there is nothing more sure in this place than that you will have a successor—every single one of us will; the institution rolls on. So, why does anyone want to rock the boat? I think it is absolutely important that when considering the potential cost to the taxpayer—and it is relatively modest, I will say—the potential cost and the lifetime cost to the taxpayer of providing these benefits to former prime ministers, particularly short-serving ones, is quite extensive.</para>
<para>I will give you a case in point. For the two most recent prime minsters, who are no longer in parliament, in the most recent six-monthly reports it is about $150,000 per annum for each of them. So, it is $300,000 or so per year. Sometimes that gets a bit higher in busier years and sometimes it is a bit less. Nonetheless, the prime ministers we have had over the past 10 years have, with the assistance of those in this place, lumbered a debt burden of $20,000 on every man, woman and child in this country, or $90,000 for every child in this country. I think the Australian people have paid enough, quite frankly. I wonder why we have to continue paying for a very poor job. So, I will be moving an amendment, and I hope it wins support, that former prime ministers will be eligible for postparliamentary benefits only after serving a minimum of four years.</para>
<para>Finally, my third amendment relates to what I call the massive overreach by the former members and senators association when they took to the High Court not only this Gold Pass application but their desire to improve their own postparliamentary superannuation benefits. It is extraordinary, the self-interest attached to this. Rather than being happy with the status quo, which gave them a set level of income over a period of time, they thought they deserved more because of some changes that had happened and the incorporation of some separate parliamentary benefits into the salary package of current serving MPs—extraordinary. And the High Court made it very, very clear. It said that the Gold Pass is not a property right, and so it can be varied by the parliament. It also made it very clear that the former superannuation system, the defined benefit pension scheme, was not a property right either and could be amended.</para>
<para>For the people at home or anyone listening to this, the former scheme, before 2004, allowed a politician to retire on a fixed percentage of a serving backbencher's salary plus whatever additional remuneration it had for the office holder, for the rest of their natural life. And after their natural life ended, that benefit went to their defined spouse, whomever that may have been at the time. As people say, the closest thing to eternal life is a government program. Well, this is pretty much as close as you can get to it, for MPs and senators. That is completely out of step with public perspective. That is why, in 2004, it was changed so that you had to meet a minimum age before you could avail yourself of it. I think it was 55 at the time, but I will stand corrected on that, if it is wrong. Then, during the Howard-Latham election campaign, Mr Howard, the then Prime Minister, said, 'No, we're no longer doing that', and we have had what is the same as for every other public servant since then—a contribution scheme for superannuation that is on par or exactly the same as for the rest of the public service.</para>
<para>But that has not stopped those people who have retired from this place previously at a very early age from continuing to receive, effectively, a salary or a wage from the taxpayer simply for being retired. As I go back to it, retrospective legislation does not sit that well with me, but if we are doing it, let's do it properly. I think it is wrong that someone at 38, 39 or 40 years of age could have retired from this place and spent the next 60 or 70 years of their life, or however long they live—if they live to 110, it would be 70 years, wouldn't it?—and get paid by the Australian taxpayer for a minimum of what? Eight years service, it was then. There are examples of those who have done exactly that: they have got out of this place after serving—they are not even 40 years of age yet—and continue to be fed by the taxpayers through the parliamentary pension system. Normally that would sit with disapproval—and I know the public disapprove of it—and I would not want to touch it, but the fact is a group of those people who were receiving that benefit sought to overreach and grab even more through the High Court, and the High Court made it very clear that this is not a property right and parliament is free to make amendments to it where it is appropriate.</para>
<para>One of the amendments—and I think it is entirely appropriate and quite generous—is that those who are eligible for those defined benefit parliamentary pension schemes should not be able to access it until they reach the preservation age, like the rest of Australia, which I have today set at 60 years of age. Some will be impacted by that. There are some who will turn 60 this year who will not be particularly disadvantaged, but it is completely out of step to think that someone who retired at a very early age—in their late 30s or 40s, a decade or so ago, and so is my age today at 47 or 48—is still drawing a salary from the public purse for work that was done back when they were in the Senate or the House. That will be an amendment. I would like to see it supported. I will canvass that with my colleagues over the course of time, but I think that in the interests of transparency and openness we need to start to get in line with the public attitudes towards this, and that means we have to accept that we should be remunerated adequately. I believe it is much better for us to have transparency in our expenditure in relation to our office. I have pushed repeatedly over many years that every dollar we spend in our office should be disclosed in a very sensible amount of time in a searchable database so that the court of public opinion can judge us for how we are equipping ourselves or acquitting ourselves with public money.</para>
<para>It means that we also need to address some of the—I am going to say 'off balance sheet' items—benefits that come the way of politicians and are not part of our salary package. It is far better for us to have a single salary scale and say, 'This is what it is. Like it or lump it, that's what politicians are going to get.' If they want their spouses to travel with them then they can pay for their spouses to travel with them. If they want to bring their families to Canberra, they can pay for their families to come to Canberra. If they want to avail themselves of a whole range of other things, they can pay for them rather than looking for some mechanism by which they can take advantage of entitlements. I use the term 'entitlements' but that is not what it really is; it is about the taxpayers' money. I will be moving those amendments when we get into the committee stage, and I thank the Senate for its time.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BURSTON</name>
    <name.id>207807</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The great divide in Australian politics today is not between left and right but between the elite ruling class and ordinary people. For decades we have trusted the elites to look after the difficult job of running the country, believing that they had the best interests of the country at heart. That trust is evaporating now, and the selfish and absurdly generous handouts that politicians have given to themselves is a part of the reason why. People can see now that the elites are ruling for their own benefit and not for the benefit of the country. In my first speech I spoke about how the political class was hostile, contemptuous and disconnected from ordinary Australians, and what is clear today is that ordinary Australians are saying 'enough is enough'. Prime Minister Turnbull can see his support evaporating, and the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017 is a desperate attempt to prevent that, but it is too little, too late. It is too little because Prime Minister Turnbull takes care to preserve his own cushy post-retirement benefits even while he strips them away from his colleagues, and too late because the public sees right through this sudden road-to-Damascus conversion. No-one believes that all these politicians, who have occupied this place for decades and grown fat on their special privileges, have only just discovered that there is waste and abuse of entitlements.</para>
<para>They are like the police chief in the film <inline font-style="italic">Casablanca</inline>—'shocked, shocked' to realise that the public is getting ripped off. They say they are fixing the system, but the system was never broken; it operates exactly how it was intended to. The exploitation of the entitlements system is not a bug; it is a feature. Many of the politicians in the major parties talk about the sacrifice they make to serve the public. Yes, politicians work long hours and often have to spend time away from family; so do truckies. But truckies do not get quarter-million-dollar salaries, truckies do not get their own extra-generous superannuation entitlements and truckies do not get to change the nation's laws to suit themselves and their mates.</para>
<para>You want to see someone making a sacrifice for the public good? Go talk to the people paying your salary with their tax dollars. The Australian people have had a gutful. They are not going to be satisfied just with ending free post-retirement travel for MPs; they want to see the whole putrid swamp drained. That means no more taking the family to Uluru, no more taking helicopters to party meetings and no more supposedly independent remuneration tribunal findings that just so happen to find you all deserve $50,000 pay rises. The Australian public will not be satisfied until their politicians get the same deal as everyone else: they get paid for the job they do, while they are doing it—nothing more and nothing less.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I speak in support of the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017. It did take quite a while to get here, but we have finally got here. We will support this legislation, but we also have some amendments that we will be putting forward. We got here because of a number of scandals—far too many—that have occurred over many years, diminishing the standing of politicians in the eyes of the public. Politicians are one of the least trusted professions in the country. When you go from being an ordinary general practitioner to being a politician you understand what it is like to take a slide down the rankings when it comes to respected professions.</para>
<para>It is hardly any surprise. We have members of parliament who claim to attend weddings, some MPs who actually claim for their honeymoon, MPs who scope out investment properties, some MPs catching a $5,000 helicopter flight, when a train ride costs $8 and, indeed, when you go by Comcar you would actually get there more quickly. So it is very important that we as a chamber start to make progress on this issue.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ian Macdonald</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Comcar? You don't use a Comcar, do you?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Di Natale</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I note the interjection from Senator Macdonald, who thinks it is okay to continue to protect the privileged life we as politicians lead. I understand he thinks that unlimited international travel is something that politicians should be entitled to. Well, we don't, Senator Macdonald. We actually think that it is about time that politicians started to act in a way that is consistent not just with what the community expects of us but is actually consistent with what is fair and decent.</para>
<para>This bill is an important step forward and we welcome it. We think the government has made some significant steps in the right direction. It will remove significant perks for former members of parliament but there is still a long way to go. We still have the pre-2004 pension system. So if you were elected prior to 2004 you get this incredibly generous pension system, which is a significant liability on the government budget. At a time when this government is trying to take money out of the pockets of single parents, of young people and of pensioners, they think it is okay that members of parliament, former ministers for example, can receive more than $200,000 a year in a parliamentary pension and then on top of that get paid for their 'jobs for the boys' gigs, whether it be as human rights representatives with DFAT or indeed in their ambassadorial roles. Really! If we are going to do this properly, isn't it about time we end the rort that is the pre-2004 pension system.</para>
<para>We have a situation in this country where ordinary people are getting squeezed, where we are seeing very little wage growth, and yet pollies' salaries are already in the top 1.6 per cent of taxpayers. On top of that we get a $32,000 electorate allowance. Only a few moments ago in this chamber we had the Labor party and Liberal Party joining together to say, 'No, we do not want any restrictions on politicians pocketing that money.' A reasonable amendment to this legislation, or indeed a reasonable motion, would be that that money, which is called an electorate allowance, actually be spent on the electorate, on politicians doing their parliamentary duties, rather than that money being pocketed as salary.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ian Macdonald</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So you give yours back, do you?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Di Natale</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, Senator Macdonald. Again, I will take that interjection. We do not give ours back; we spend it on the electorate. We spend it on our parliamentary duties. You, Senator Macdonald, might choose to pocket it but we do not. We think that that money is there for an intended purpose and there should be rules in place to ensure that money cannot be taken as salary.</para>
<para>These perks have serious flow-on effects when it comes to the making of public policy. We have budgets like that 2014 Tony Abbott budget handed down, because they completely lose touch of what it is like for ordinary people, the great bulk of the population. They lose touch with what it is like to go out to a dinner or to a business lunch and actually have to pay for it. Yes, it is true, we work hard. Politicians do work hard—it is a tough gig—but we all chose to do it. And, guess what, so many other members of the community work bloody hard, too. My dad was an electrician. I lost count of the times he got home from work and collapsed on the couch, because he had been up at 6, inside roofs and underneath houses, wiring up in 40 degree temperatures, and then came home and collapsed on the couch at 7 o'clock that night. He worked hard and so too do the nurses who care for the injured people. They work hard. The teachers work hard looking after kids. Community lawyers are working hard for people without a voice. Counsellors who support people at women's refuges, shop assistants, farm workers, the people who make your coffee every day in this place, they all work hard. The Comcar drivers and the gardeners, they work hard, too. And guess what? They do not get the perks that we get. They do not get the pay that we get. Let us make sure that the system of entitlements that exists at the moment is actually consistent with the lives that ordinary people lead.</para>
<para>This bill does go some way to helping us get there, and that is why we are supporting it. We absolutely support the intent of this legislation. We have been talking now for many years about establishing an independent authority, like that being proposed by the government, as part of a broader national anticorruption watchdog. We believe that this body should sit within that framework. Having that body sit within that framework gives people confidence.</para>
<para>If anything, the wake-up call that parliaments right around the world have received from the election of the likes of Donald Trump in the US and, indeed, Brexit in the UK is that people are feeling unrepresented. They feel that the distance between their elected representatives and the community is now so great that they have decided that they have had a gutful, and they are looking for other options. Who can blame them?</para>
<para>We need to make sure that what we do in this place addresses the huge and growing democratic deficit that I think is undermining good governance in this nation. That is why it is so critical that we ensure that the parliamentary allowances system is reformed—but reformed thoroughly so that we get a root-and-branch review. We will be continuing to argue that the electorate allowance should be spent on the community, on politicians embarking on their parliamentary duties, and not taken as salary.</para>
<para>As my colleague Senator Rhiannon said earlier, this is regarded by many in this place as a backdoor pay increase. It should not be done that way. It should be spent on people conducting their duties. That is why the pre-2004 pension system needs to go. It is staggering that we have former ministers on pensions of over $200,000 who are in another job—usually allocated by the government of the day—and also receiving a salary for that work, earning sometimes in excess of $300,000, $400,000 or $500,000. That is completely inappropriate, and we need to end the parliamentary pensions system as it currently exists.</para>
<para>With reference to this bill, we have some amendments proposed by Senator Bernardi which would make a politician's superannuation available only at the age of 60, which is the preservation age available for everybody else to access super. We do not know what the budget impact of this proposal is. Most people on the Life Gold Pass system would probably be close to 60, but it is still a principle that is worthy of support. It is still a principle that is worthy of support.</para>
<para>The other proposed amendment that would require a PM to have served at least four years before being eligible for the gold pass is an improvement, and it should be supported, but we believe that we should have no exceptions. The gold pass should go. If you are a former Prime Minister, you are engaged in many other activities and often have speaking engagements, earning significant salary for the work that you do. You should be able to pay for your international and interstate travel. Most of the engagements that you are involved in, if they are work related, will be paid for by the people who are inviting you to participate, so why on earth do we need to continue the gold pass for former prime ministers?</para>
<para>Like in our proposed amendment, the Prime Minister would be aligned with other MPs under the amendment proposed by One Nation. However, there is a further amendment that would deny former PMs the ability to have offices and staff. Because this establishment of offices and staff is created by regulation, and this bill attempts to cancel out any benefit under any administrative scheme, the impacts are potentially very wide. It is for that reason that we cannot support that specific amendment.</para>
<para>Senator Xenophon's proposed amendments would increase penalties from the proposed loading of 25 per cent to up to 200 per cent. If there is more than one contravention within 12 months, the penalty would be lifted to 400 per cent, which is why we will consider supporting those amendments.</para>
<para>We have a broken system. We have a broken system that for too long has allowed politicians to be able to claim expenses for things that ordinary members of the community would not dream of claiming for. Being able to go to your own honeymoon and claim it on the taxpayer is remarkable. Being able to catch a helicopter for a flight that would take you longer in the chopper than it would to drive by car—$5,000 on the taxpayer—is remarkable. Going away to a five-star holiday resort with the family for two weeks and then claiming it as a work expense is just not on.</para>
<para>We need to acknowledge that we have been given a wake-up call in this parliament. We have been given a wake-up call as a result of what we have seen right around the world and certainly in our own most recent election, where people in greater numbers are looking for alternatives to the Coles and Woolies duopoly: the Labor and Liberal parties.</para>
<para>What we need to do is ensure that we fix this system and fix it properly. We will support this legislation, but it is important that we go further. It is important that the electorate allowance be restricted to politicians' work and not be taken as salary, and it is about time we got rid of the pension scheme that allows people who are working in other work to also claim a pension, sometimes in excess of $200,000 a year. But, having said all of that, we do welcome these changes, and we look forward to more coming down the line so that we can start to restore people's trust in what is a broken system.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I indicate that I support the second reading of the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017. I hope it is not the kiss of death to say nice things about Minister Ryan, but Senator Ryan has dealt with these matters in a very assiduous and, I think, a very decent manner and has brought these matters to fruition. It is better late than never, but I think that the minister's level of consultation, from my point of view and from my colleagues' point of view, has been very good. I think we should acknowledge the work and energy that has gone into this to bring us to this stage. Can I say that, in terms of this legislation, I did try and bring this—the so-called gold-pass bill—on for a vote some time a number of months ago, but the government said it was not ready to do so. It is a pity we could not have dealt with it earlier.</para>
<para>In relation to this bill, the issue of transparency is absolutely critical. As a member of the South Australian parliament many years ago, I moved to have politicians' overseas travel reports put online. It took two or three years to get my colleagues in the major parties onside, but now it is a matter of course. People should know for significant amounts of expenditure what the MP or legislative councillor did. In turn, that gives a level of scrutiny and rigor. That is something that we will be discussing when we turn to the other bill about the authority that is being set up.</para>
<para>In terms of the specific amendments, I believe it is important that there be adequate penalties if there are breaches in the use of entitlements. It is in the context of this bill that I will be moving an amendment to ensure that, if a recipient has made a wrongful claim, there will be a penalty of 200 per cent of the amount claimed. That would ratchet up for repeat offenders up to 400 per cent. It is practical in this context. There will be a new mechanism in place where you can get a preliminary determination as to whether you can make a particular claim or not, so there should be no excuse for claims being made that ought not to be made. Also, having claims publicly available on a monthly basis would give a level of scrutiny that would keep all of us on our toes. I think that is a good and positive thing. So I will be moving that amendment.</para>
<para>I also note the amendment of Senator Bernardi on the issue of former prime ministers' entitlements. I have a different position to Senator Di Natale. I think if there is going to be any exception it should be for former prime ministers if they served for more than a year. I think four years is too long a period of time. We seem to be living now at a time when we not only have 24-hour news cycles but seem to have prime ministers who do not last for much more than 24 months. I think it is important that we acknowledge, if you have served this nation as its leader, that important role. If you have been head of this nation from whichever party you represented, I do not think it is inappropriate that you are extended a gold pass to attend community events and functions. I think some would say, 'That can be paid for by whoever is inviting them.' But, if it is a remote community or a community group that has very stretched resources, I do not think it is reasonable for them to pay for the cost of flying a former PM over and putting them up to participate in a community event. It can be important having a former PM attending and being part of a community event, whether it be a conference, school opening or whatever. If it is a legitimate event then I think we should honour our former prime ministers. So I have a different view in relation to that to what others do.</para>
<para>I welcome this legislation. I welcome the committee stage of this bill. I note Senator Macdonald's views on retrospectivity. I know it is a heavy burden and a heavy onus on the parliament, but I believe that we ought to deal with these matters. The High Court dealt with the issue of the gold pass. I think it has been settled by virtue of the High Court's approach on this. I am sure we will hear more about the legal principles involved. I indicate that I support this legislation, but I believe we should go further. If we want to give this legislation teeth, there need to be some appropriate penalties in place which will keep all MPs and senators on their toes and strengthen public confidence in the system that we have.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I support this bill in principle but I do not feel it goes far enough. I make mention of the amendments I will be putting up to the bill. Just this week and also prior to this I have spoken to people on my Facebook page. The question I asked them was: how would you describe politicians' lurks and perks? Grant Mac said, 'Snouts in the trough.' Carol Smith said, 'Greedy. Not necessary. Over the top. Ridiculous. Disgusting.' Bryan Kearney said, 'Antiquated.' Ryan McDonald said, 'Taxpayer theft.' Drew Woods said, 'Despicable.' Barry Odorici said, 'Grubs.' Janette Howard said, 'Outrageous.' Deborah Fenwick said, 'Disgraceful.' Steve Kelly said, 'Parasites on our society. The age of entitlement is over for our politicians.' Charlie Mike said, 'Highly fraudulent.' Leanne Irving said, 'Criminal. Unworthy. Leeches. Greedy. Parasites.' This is how the general public feel about politicians and their lurks and perks. I really felt sorry to get this response back from the people we are here to represent, but that is the general feeling. I hear it day in and day out.</para>
<para>I remember Joe Hockey standing up in this parliament and saying, 'The age of entitlement is over.' It is. We are not the wealthy country we once were, and yet we are still asking the public to pull their belts in. That is evident in the omnibus bill that the government wants to pass in this parliament. We are at a stage where we are reaching $500 billion in debt because of excessive government spending, mismanagement of moneys and the ever-increasing welfare payments that we have, trying to provide for people who are struggling, increasing costs to families, pensioners, refugees and whatever is happening to health care. There is an ever-increasing cost. So, yes, the age of entitlements is over.</para>
<para>I have always said that we as leaders of this nation must set an example. I understand Senator Macdonald saying it should not be retrospective. But then again I will say that the legislation the government are putting forward in the parliament is actually retrospective because they are asking the people who are receiving a helping hand from the taxpayer to take cuts or to change their entitlements. Why should former members of this house be treated any differently? I think everyone should be treated the same, equally. That has always been my call. We should set an example.</para>
<para>I feel strongly about this because I went to a cabinet meeting before being elected and I had two women from Meals on Wheels come up to me and say: 'We desperately need funding. We cannot service the disabled or pensioners with meals on a daily basis.' They are an organisation run by volunteers who put long hours of work into it. In Queensland they receive $2.80 per meal from the government. That is what they are given to fund it. They are crying out. They serve about 37,000 meals a day throughout Australia—on average, 10 million a year. Just last night and last week I went to Ovarian Cancer Australia. Here we have an organisation that is a charity trying to help women who are dying from ovarian cancer—1,200 a year.</para>
<para>These are only two of the charities. The Burrumbuttock Hay Run, which I have been on twice in the last two years and I will be going on again next week, is a charity organisation run by man by the name of Brendan Farrell, who gets other truckies who give their time and hay supplied to deliver to farmers in North Queensland who are desperate because of the drought and because their stock are dying. They get no assistance from the government whatever: it is all charity.</para>
<para>These are only a few organisations that I mention here, but I am sure that there are thousands of others who are looking for assistance. I think that pulling back on some expenses wherever we can to save money and putting it where it is really needed would be the path that I would encourage my fellow senators and members of this place to pursue.</para>
<para>As a case in point showing why the public are so angry about this, consider Tony Burke:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Tony Burke: Taxpayers slugged $2.2 million for travel costs including charter flights on VIP jets</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor frontbencher Tony Burke has slugged taxpayers close to $2.2 million for travel costs, including charter planes and flying on VIP jets. On top of $2.4 million in office and phone expenses, this makes him the parliament’s $4.6 million dollar man … Mr Burke was forced to pay back a $94 Comcar fare, which he had used to take him to a Robbie Williams concert, and admitted he flew his family business class to Uluru during the 2012 school holidays, under the family entitlements scheme.</para></quote>
<para>Then you go to retired Labor senator John Hogg, a low-profile politician who would hardly be recognised in Sydney. He racked up almost $1.4 million in overseas junkets before leaving parliament. Retiring WA Senator Mark Bishop and retiring Queensland Senator Brett Mason claimed almost $500,000 combined for overseas jaunts dating back to late 2008. Former Father of the House, former Sydney MP Philip Ruddock, is another frequent flyer, making 12 overseas expense claims in seven years.</para>
<para>That is what the public are angry about, and I do not blame them. This is where I agree with Senator Macdonald about the former prime ministers. For the last 20 years I have been calling for former prime ministers to no longer be on taxpayer-funded services. Gough Whitlam was on it for 39 years—a man who was in office for three years, then thrown out overwhelmingly by the public; yet he was on taxpayer-funded services for 39 years. Malcolm Fraser—40 years. Bob Hawke—still on it after 26 years. Paul Keating—21 years. John Howard—10 years. Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd—four years—two prime ministers who put this country in so much debt and are still a cost to the taxpayer.</para>
<para>The amendment that I will be moving is that the Commonwealth—in other words, the taxpayer—must not provide any benefits under any administrative scheme to a person because the person is a retired former prime minister. At present, the entitlements given to a former PM are at the present prime minister's discretion. I believe that is a gross conflict of interest.</para>
<para>I want to explain why I am calling for this. I have an office in Brisbane CPO, and near my office is the office of Kevin Rudd. I have never seen him there once. I have seen a couple of his staffers, but have I seen Kevin Rudd? No. That office must be an extreme expense to the taxpayer. I think he spends most of the time overseas. Let me inform the public of what we, the taxpayers—I am a taxpayer as well, so that is why I include myself—are paying. We will go to Julia Gillard. Domestic scheduled fares are $7,872.03; car costs nearly $7,000; office facilities $50,530. Go to the Hon. Robert Hawke: domestic air travel $9,543.85; car costs $9,216; office facilities $62,140. We are still paying the cost of those office facilities for a gentleman who is in his 80s. Or we go to the Hon. John Howard: domestic air travel $14,378; car costs just over $13,000; office facilities $112,434.42. Then go to the Hon. Paul Keating. His domestic fares were $1,491; car costs $9,059; office facilities $62,979. As for Kevin Rudd, his office facilities were $63,210; car costs $9,658; and domestic scheduled fares $2,274. To me, these people lost their jobs. The public do not get paid their services when they lose their jobs or when they retire. Most of these members in this House have not retired; they have actually been thrown out by the people because the people did not want them in this place any longer. And, yet, we still support them and pay for their fares. Like I said, the age of entitlement is over.</para>
<para>With some of the ones here for the Life Gold Pass holders, I will mention a couple. Fran Bailey: over $6,000. Simon Crean: $9,827—this is all for domestic fares. David Hawker: over $4,000. Michael Ronaldson: over $7,000. Peter Slipper, the former member of the lower house who was also Speaker: $12,620. These are costs that the people are fed up with.</para>
<para>I will be moving an amendment to this bill that former prime ministers are not paid. I do not believe it should be from this day on. I do believe it should be retrospective—that those should be cut off immediately. I would like to see that money put to better use. There are people here who, as I said, are struggling. Charities need it; organisations need it; our health system needs it; our schools need it; our disabled need it. There are more people that require this—especially when we have these people that can do speaking engagements and get thousands of dollars for it. And not only the former members—their spouses and partners are also entitled to this. It is not good enough. It is definitely not good enough. It has to change.</para>
<para>I call on the members to support my amendment with regards to the former prime ministers and to have consideration for the taxpayers of this nation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I want to speak in favour of this bill. However, I want to mention some extra initiatives that we can also adopt.</para>
<para>Accountability has long been established as a fundamental part of Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party—accountability to the people. Senator Hanson has discussed this for 20 years, and we endorse her stance wholeheartedly. In my first media conference after being named a successful candidate for the Senate, I raised three issues when I was asked what my priorities were. The first word I uttered was 'accountability'—to restore accountability. After nine years of dealing with politicians in this chamber and also in the House of Representatives, I recognised that there was very, very little accountability in Australia's federal parliament. The second issue was cost of living. Accountability comes in there, as well. The third aspect was security—economic security and personal security and safety. Accountability comes in there. So accountability is more than just pollies' perks, or putting a lid on them. But that is a good place to start.</para>
<para>Before I entered parliament, I can recall that Ms Bronwyn Bishop was held accountable for her waste of money with the helicopter rides. There was a big kerfuffle from the Labor Party about that—and rightly so. But then when the government raised the fact that Mr Tony Burke's expenditures were so high, as Senator Hanson has just discussed, everyone went silent. And that is not good enough because accountability is fundamental in our parliamentary representative system of governance. We are representing the people; we are governing on their behalf.</para>
<para>When I went on my listening trip through South-West Queensland just last month, people were disgusted—with not only the behaviour in the chambers but also the lack of accountability. People in Far North Queensland, when I went up there the previous month, were disgusted. We are just not getting to the points; we are not addressing people's needs. And there is something else about this, too: it is destroying parliament's credibility. It is destroying the credibility of every single member in Australia's parliament.</para>
<para>One way we can bring accountability is to track public spending by having the money actually tracked. One thing we know is that when government expenditure is tracked, especially spending by any political office, then people think twice before splashing the public cash around. And when we say 'track', we mean in real time—a web-based format that makes it easy for the public to search and view. That will terrify some members of parliament, but we welcome it.</para>
<para>Last month, in Bundaberg, I foreshadowed legislation coming from Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party with regard to a transparency portal. It is an inexpensive web-based computer program that displays all government expenditure on the internet in real time for public view. The moment a cent is spent, up it goes on the transparency portal for scrutiny by 10 million Australian adults and adolescents, because we know that they are the best at catching us out. This system has been proven to pay for itself many times over with the expenditure that is involved in the application implementation saved through higher accountability in very, very quick time. Once it is recovered, from there on we are making savings. The portal is used successfully throughout the United States and Europe. Now, it is our turn in Australia.</para>
<para>I was briefed on the portal's potential by Tim Andrews, executive director of the Australian Taxpayers' Alliance. He researched the concept further when he visited Washington DC in December last year. I also picked up word of that when I went to meet some of the Trump administration's transition team. We are delighted to learn now that senators such as Senator Bernardi have advocated for this system for quite some time. It is a proven system.</para>
<para>Pollies' perks, though, are just the tip of the iceberg of government wastage and a lack of accountability. Pollies' trips to the Gold Coast or enjoying black-tie parties on the taxpayers' purse are the types of things that the Labor and Liberal duopoly like to protect, so we do not expect much change to emanate from the old majors any time soon. Sadly, politicians' largesse is a drop in the ocean when compared to the amount government departments waste either consciously for window-dressing or through lack of accountability. The real benefit of an online portal is that the whole of government expenditure will be open to scrutiny, not just the offices of politicians.</para>
<para>Mr Andrews informed me that in the US the portal was used, and this is just one of many examples, to uncover the fact that in one state—I think it was Texas, but I am not sure—government printer cartridges were being double ordered, and a thrifty member of the public saved the government, just on that item alone, $500,000 a year. Within months of the portal being implemented overseas, most government departments immediately reduced expenditure significantly, as they realised they were being watched by millions of people. Ten million auditors in this country would be watching over our shoulders.</para>
<para>Last December I put the portal proposal to a community meeting in Coen, North Queensland, and received emphatic support. In Cape York, for example, the locals are wondering why millions—make that hundreds of millions—of taxpayer dollars are being spent on road funding when it is a well-known fact that similar roads cost a lot less to build, and there were some gross abuses of that process that they showed me. Locals have told me they expect a higher level of accountability from the government, and this portal is just one answer to the questions they have about the expenditure of their tax dollars.</para>
<para>But there is a second aspect to raising accountability, and that is the aspect of character—ethical issues. As a parliament, we need to lead by example. That is why the senators in Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party always fly economy class. It is a matter of example.</para>
<para>But we also need to go further, thirdly, in looking at accountability in all aspects. We need to come back to compliance with our Constitution. We need to remember that our Constitution involves competitive federalism. Contrary to the centralisation of funds and contrary to the centralisation of power in Canberra, our Constitution devolves power to the states, and we need to get back to that. Send many of the functions, such as the environment department, the health department and the education department, back to the states. That would save hundreds of millions of dollars. In fact, it would save tens of billions of dollars. It would also give closer scrutiny to expenditure.</para>
<para>At the state level, we have seen the amalgamation of councils in Queensland, which has been counterproductive and inefficient. New South Wales still have not learnt from that, and now they are going through the same, with the people protesting but the state government still doing it. I have seen examples. I have been told by good councillors that we need to go back from the regional councils, the amalgamated councils, to shire and local councils, and here is where it really matters. When a councillor is walking around his or her district, they can see things. When the employees of the council are walking around, they can see things. Accountability is not just about a system. It is also about information and being close to the people using the system and using the information. Instead of someone calling up and dealing with a bureaucrat who then allocates resources from one side of the region to do something in another side of the region, they just get it done right there in the shire. Senator Hanson knows exactly what I am talking about, because that is the foundation of Senator Hanson's political skill and instinct. She has done that at the local level and done it highly successfully.</para>
<para>Regulations in fact distort. They put protection around public scrutiny. The other thing that happens with regulations is that, when people find a way around one regulation, we then patch it with another way. I have seen that so many times in my first three months in parliament—patches upon patches upon patches, each adding to the cost and, quite frankly, often destroying accountability. Regulations kill accountability, and they centralise.</para>
<para>But another thing is that, at the moment, our revenue in the form of taxation is separated from our spending. We have massive arguments in this house and in the other house about that waste. We need to have comprehensive tax reform to bring in a more efficient and effective tax system. That is a must, and it must be tied to spending.</para>
<para>As I said, accountability is a matter of character. We can put forward a solution immediately to increase the accountability of all spending at the federal level with a transparency portal. I want to finish with this summary: Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party is in favour of close scrutiny of every dollar that is spent by politicians and by public servants. Why? Because, like public servants, politicians serve the people. We are simply guardians of the taxpayers' money.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I would like to thank those senators who have contributed to this debate. The Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017 implements changes to the Parliamentary Entitlements Act 1990 and the Members of Parliament (Life Gold Pass) Act 2002 consistent with reforms announced in November 2013 and the 2014-15 budget respectively, as well as those announced earlier this year. In addition to previous announcements, the bill accelerates the termination of access to travel under the Life Gold Pass scheme. The bill ceases Life Gold Pass travel on the day it commences for all current passholders, including spouses and de facto partners, other than retired former prime ministers and their spouse or de facto partner and renames the remaining benefit 'parliamentary retirement travel'.</para>
<para>The bill continues parliamentary retirement travel for qualifying current and future retired former prime ministers and their spouse or de facto partner. However, the amount of travel and the purpose of travel will be further limited. The bill reduces parliamentary retirement travel by retired former prime ministers from 40 to 30 domestic return trips per year and from 40 to 20 domestic return trips per year for their spouse or de facto partner. The bill requires that parliamentary retirement travel undertaken after 14 May 2014 be for the public benefit.</para>
<para>In relation to changes to the Parliamentary Entitlements Act 1990, the bill reduces the qualification age for travel provided to the dependent children of senior officers, ministers, Presiding Officers and opposition officeholders from under 25 to under 18 years of age, to bring these into line. The bill also imposes a 25 per cent loading on any claim for a prescribed travel benefit that requires a subsequent adjustment, unless the adjustment is the result of an administrative error made by the administering department or the adjustment is made within 28 days of the original claim. The bill establishes a mechanism to minimise the risk that payments made in the course of administering parliamentary work expenses will breach section 83 of the Constitution. The mechanism includes a statutory right for the recovery of payments that are beyond the description, as well as the 25 per cent penalty loading where applicable. The bill contains sensible reforms to improve accountability in the spending of taxpayers' money, which strengthens the parliamentary work expenses framework.</para>
<para>I will address many of the other issues raised in senators' speeches on the second reading when the amendments are brought forward in the committee stage of this bill. But I do want to respond to the contribution of Senator Rhiannon. The poison introduced by the Australian Greens into politics has been to assign a motive to actions, as Senator Rhiannon has done to me regarding the results of the delay of the introduction of this bill from last year. I am in no way complaining about criticism of my actions, but to assign a motive—you do not have a window into my soul. I made the decision, not the Prime Minister, to not bring this bill forward last year, and I might say the key factor was in fact the Greens joining with the Labor Party's intransigence on the government's legislating the two bills we sought a mandate for at the election at which we were successful: the ABCC and the registered organisations commission bills.</para>
<para>Over summer, the decision was taken to immediately abolish the Life Gold Pass rather than have a three- to six-year phase-out period, but it was a decision I took at the time, as has been highlighted by Senator Xenophon, who I thank for his contribution. This is a provision I am quite happy to say I inherited, but I made that decision last year. The government's commitment to addressing this issue is demonstrated by the fact that over summer the decision was taken to move to immediate abolition, not the phased-out abolition which existed in the previous draft bill, which would have seen this exist for up to two more parliaments. So, in the next bill—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Only so you could look like you were doing something—</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am sorry, I cannot quite hear you, Senator McKim.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I said only so you could look like you were doing something with parliamentary entitlements.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, this is the point. I am going to address this point—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>244247</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you should ignore interjections.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Acting Deputy President, I am going to take the interjection from Senator McKim. He does it quite a lot as well. By all means criticise actions, but—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Williams</name>
    <name.id>I0V</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, Mr Acting Deputy President: you directed the minister to ignore the interjections; I agree with that. What about directing those who are actually doing the interjecting to cease from interjections, which are disorderly anyway?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>244247</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Williams. Yes, all members of the chamber are entitled to be heard in silence, and ministers should ignore interjections. I ask all senators to cease interjections.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My apologies, Mr Acting Deputy President. This is part of the problem with modern debate, which the Greens have introduced. By all means criticise the government for not introducing this for a couple of years—or, indeed, over summer. But do not assign a motive to it. Don't you dare say to me that you know why I acted at this particular point, because there is a paper trail and there are conversations I have had with my colleagues. But this is the poison you have introduced into Australian politics. You seek windows into people's souls—you assign a motive. You try to assign a false motive rather than criticise people for their actions, and politics and debate are the worse for it. I have made it clear why the government has introduced this and I am happy to deal with criticism. But our commitment to addressing it is actually demonstrated by the fact that we have moved to immediate abolition rather than phased abolition, as was originally proposed.</para>
<para>As I outlined, a number of the contributions were actually about the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority and more general issues related to that. I will deal with those when the next bill comes forward for debate. At that, I commend this bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>51</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have three series of amendments that I intend on moving. As I said, the first one is related to the removal of all retrospective elements in the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017. If that does not succeed, I then intend to move a series of amendments to include former prime ministers in the abolition, if the parliament believes that retrospectivity is not an issue. The third series of amendments I will be moving, if those first two sets of amendments are not adopted by the chamber, will be to reduce benefits to former prime ministers commensurate with their service.</para>
<para>Can I say to all of those who spoke in the debate after me that they were all talking about what politicians now receive and they do not understand that the salary they receive today is as a result of a decision made by the parliament a few years ago to take away the Life Gold Pass and to take away a few other different entitlements but to compensate existing members of parliament with an increased salary. So you are all getting around $200,000 a year and you are getting that because these other emoluments, if I can call them that, that were previously available were taken away. But, see, the people you are taking these benefits from retrospectively did not get the increase from—forgive me if I do not get this right—around $110,000 up to $200,000. They did not get that. That is why I am so strong on this, not for me but for former members of parliament who did the hard yards at a lower rate of pay because they had these other entitlements. You were compensated when they were taken out. You were compensated, but they were not. And none of the speakers have acknowledged that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have to get out more!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sure, you speak from your ivory tower now. You do not understand former politicians, who had a much lower salary than you have.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>51</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation</title>
          <page.no>51</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAMERON</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Brandis. Last year, the minister advised the Senate:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There will be no change to the 50 per cent CGT discount for individuals.</para></quote>
<para>Does this remain the Turnbull government's position?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government has no intention of supporting Labor's policies on negative gearing or capital gains tax. The government is focused on returning the budget to balance and addressing the cost pressures on households and business, in particular, on energy and child care.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cameron, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAMERON</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You say you have no intention, but does that include no intention in the May budget? Will there be any changes to the capital gains tax in the May budget?</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order on my right.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the budget is the second Tuesday in May.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government has no intention of supporting Labor's policies on negative gearing or capital gains tax. We know Labor's policies will do nothing to increase the supply of housing.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cameron, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAMERON</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Does this mean that you are completely ruling out any changes? What is the position of the government? Is it the position of the Prime Minister, who claimed the housing market will collapse; the Treasurer, who claimed that house prices will increase; or Ms O'Dwyer, who, in the same day, said house pricing would increase and decrease?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think what Labor have done on negative gearing is become jingoistic on housing affordability policy. They believe in silver bullets. It is foolish and it is reckless, and it does not help anybody. The way that Mr Shorten and, indeed, Mr Bowen and the others have engaged in addressing Australians' frustration at the moment with the politics—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pause the clock. Senator Cameron, a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cameron</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, a point of order on relevance. My question was about ruling it out and I would like a clear, unequivocal response to that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cameron. I will remind the Attorney-General of the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have already addressed that matter, Mr President, in my answer to both the primary question and the first supplementary question. I go on to observe that the way that Mr Shorten and, indeed, Mr Bowen and others have engaged in addressing Australians' frustration at the moment with the politics of populism and denial is a cruel hoax. It is not going to help anybody buy a home; it is going to make people and their families see their rents go up. So I will leave that to the Labor Party to wear that consequence of their policies.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Renewable Energy Target</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Finance, Senator Cormann. Can the minister inform the Senate what the impact on the economy would be of another state-based 50 per cent renewable energy target?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Smith for that question. The impact on the economy of another state-based 50 per cent renewable energy target would be very bad. It would be bad for jobs and it would be bad for families. It would be particularly bad if such a proposal were implemented in our home state of Western Australia, because Western Australia is an energy island. Western Australia is not part of the National Electricity Market. If events like those in South Australia were to happen in Western Australia, there would not be an interconnector to save businesses and families in Western Australia faced with energy blackouts.</para>
<para>That is, of course, why WA Labor's commitment in this election to introduce a renewable energy target of at least 50 per cent is so reckless. How do we know that Labor is committed to a 50 per cent renewable energy target in Western Australia? Firstly, the shadow minister in Western Australia, Bill Johnston, told an environmental law conference last week:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Labor Party's target is at least 50 per cent by 2030. We don’t believe that that is going to push up prices … we believe it will be done on a competitive basis and, as I say, I think setting a target leads to policy action and I think there are a lot of policy actions that are required.</para></quote>
<para>Then of course, last week, we had an exclusive in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> under the headline, 'WA Labor to push for 50 per cent renewables target', saying that Labor in WA was poised to announce that it would set a 50 per cent renewable energy target. All of us in this business know that these stories do not appear by accident; they are planted. But yesterday, we found out for sure that Labor in WA is committed to a WA renewable energy target of 50 per cent. Why? Because this is what Mr McGowan said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There will be no renewable energy target, at a state level, under any government I lead.</para></quote>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Now, who has said that before? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is affordable access to a secure supply of energy particularly important for my home state of Western Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Smith for that question. As I flagged, it is particularly important for Western Australia because Western Australia is an energy island. Senator Macdonald and I were on the Senate fuel and energy committee and we took a lot of evidence—Senator Macdonald might remember—in Western Australia in relation to these matters. Under the last Labor governments—the Gallop and Carpenter Labor governments—families and businesses in Western Australia suffered blackout after blackout. This 50 per cent renewable energy target that the Labor Party in Western Australia wants to commit to, should Mark McGowan be successful at the next election, would damage the Western Australian economy. It would hurt energy security and it would drive up the cost of energy for families and for business, which would mean less profitable and less successful businesses in WA, fewer jobs and higher unemployment. That is why people in Western Australia should not take the risk of a McGowan Labor government. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, I ask a final supplementary question. What approach is the Turnbull government taking to ensure energy policy supports stronger growth and more jobs?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The commitment of the Turnbull government is to pursue policies that make sure that we can have access to affordable, reliable and secure energy supplies in a way that still helps us meet our emissions reduction targets. That is the way to go, not this green ideological pursuit that Labor has embraced in the pursuit of Greens preferences in inner city seats in Perth and around Australia, not this ideological approach which will drive up the cost of electricity for families, drive up the cost of electricity for businesses, make it harder for businesses to be successful and make it harder for businesses to employ more West Australians. That is not the way to go, we know for absolutely certain. Remember when Julia Gillard said 'there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead'? Well, immediately after the election, we got one. Mark McGowan is hiding his true intentions before the election because he knows how unpopular his policies under the Renewable Energy Target are. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Brandis. On Monday the Treasurer said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The balance of the savings achieved through that bill will be provided and debited into the NDIS special account. The NDIS's account will be poorer for it, if this bill is not passed.</para></quote>
<para>Did the Treasurer discuss his intention to tie savings from the omnibus bill to the NDIS with the Prime Minister or his office before that announcement was made?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Gallagher. I refer you to the response of the Prime Minister yesterday when asked about this matter. This is what he said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the answer is no - but what the Treasurer is doing is again pointing out the critically important fact that this big program, the National Disability Insurance Scheme, this big program is currently short of money.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Labor left it unfunded. It was another Labor promise - which we all support, we all support the objective and the scheme - but we've got to find the money to pay for it. Now what we're seeking to do is to ensure, demonstrating, that as we make savings, we will be able to apply them to support that vitally important program.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The alternative … is just to pay for it with more debt. Everyone at least pays lip service to bringing the Budget back into balance. It is only my Government that is doing the hard yards, making the case to bring the Budget back into balance. Your commitment to the NDIS is not measured in words, it is measured in deeds. What we are doing is taking the steps, making the decisions, to ensure we've got the money to pay for it.</para></quote>
<para>That is what the Prime Minister said yesterday and that is the answer to your question.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, I ask a supplementary question. I refer to Michelle Grattan's report, which said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There had been some resistance from the Prime Minister's office to the timing of announcing it. The PMO urged caution but Morrison, for whatever reason, was insistent.</para></quote>
<para>Can the minister confirm the Treasurer ignored warnings about his flawed strategy and proceeded nonetheless?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am familiar with Michelle Grattan's article in <inline font-style="italic">The Conversation</inline> and this is how I would respond to you. I refer to the Prime Minister's comments yesterday and I refer also to a press release on Monday by the Treasurer and the Minister for Social Services, which stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Turnbull Government will commit $3 billion in funding to the National Disability Insurance Scheme (NDIS), taking an important step towards fully and responsibly paying for the scheme, which will transform the lives of around 460,000 Australians living with disability, their families and carers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since coming to office, the Government has sought to bridge Labor’s $4.1 billion NDIS funding gap in 2019-20, growing to over $6 billion in future years, in order to provide certainty for Australians with disability, their families and carers. The $3 billion in funding will be directed to the NDIS Savings Fund Special Account …</para></quote>
<para class="italic"><inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, I ask a final supplementary question. Is the latest failure why the Treasurer's colleagues are now calling him the 'new Joe Hockey'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have not heard that but it would be a great compliment to both men to be compared to one another because they are both fine Australians and both very successful Treasurers, certainly more successful as Treasurers than any the revolving door of Treasurers that occupied that portfolio during the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd years. The fact is that what Mr Morrison is doing and what Mr Hockey embarked on doing during his years as Treasurer is to return the budget to balance. Might I remind you that when Mr Hockey became the Treasurer at the 2013 election, he inherited the worst set of public accounts that any incoming Treasurer in a new government has inherited in Australian history, the very worst. And first under Mr Hockey and now under Mr Morrison, the coalition government is determined to do what Labor failed to do.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>54</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Like a dog, my question is to Senator Cormann representing the Treasurer—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I did jump the gun there.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cormann</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order, I think the senator should refer to me by my proper title.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cormann. I think Senator Whish-Wilson has taken note of the point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Like a dog that returns to his vomit is a fool who repeats his folly. That is from the <inline font-style="italic">Book of Proverbs</inline> 26:11. Senator Cormann, why does your government insist on managing the economy in this country by consistently returning to its cruel 2014 budget measures, taking money away from disadvantaged Australians? When are you going to get it and raise some revenue in this country to pay for social security nets and enact serious economic reform?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Indeed the Turnbull government is totally focused on increasing revenue to ensure we can fund a very generous social safety net and the best way to do it is by growing the economy more strongly. If only the socialists and the Greens were not standing in the way of things like important investment in productivity-enhancing infrastructure like the $1.2 billion investment in the Perth Freight Link, the economy would be in much better shape right now. Thousands of Western Australian construction workers would be working now on the Perth Freight Link if it had not been for the activities Senator Ludlam and his cohort trying to frustrate the initiatives of democratically elected governments in Western Australia and in Australia trying to ensure that we have got the most efficient and most productive trading infrastructure possible.</para>
<para>The Turnbull government unashamedly pursues a pro-growth, pro-jobs agenda, because that, among other things—such as helping families across Australia to get ahead, as well as making sure that we can continue to lift living standards across Australia—delivers a revenue dividend for the budget. Pursuing Labor-Greens policies of higher taxes, budget deficits and more debt—which is deferred taxation—and, of course, frustrating free trade agreements and frustrating infrastructure investment makes it harder for business to be successful. It makes it harder for business to employ more Australians. It makes it harder for the budget to be able to receive more revenue. If Senator Whish-Wilson is so keen on more revenue for the government he should be supporting the pro-growth policies of the Turnbull government so that we can make bigger investments into a sustainably funded, affordable and important social safety net. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cormann, your government has raised giving income tax back to the states and then it backtracked. You have raised changing the distribution of the GST, then you backtracked. You raised a bank deposit levy, then you backtracked. Are changes to the capital gains tax on or off the table? Can you give a clear answer to the Australian people today?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I gave a very explicit answer at the doors this morning. The story on the front page of <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> is wrong. There is no such proposal before the government. The policy of the government is that we are not reducing the capital gains tax this time. We are not supporting Labor's disastrous higher tax policies on capital gains tax and negative gearing. Our national economic plan for jobs and growth is reflected in the budget and I urge all senators to continue to support it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Cormann. Even the Business Council of Australia recognised reducing the capital gains tax concession. When are you going to tackle the big issue of our time—inequality—and the very acute housing affordability crisis in this country? If you do not reduce the capital gains tax concession and negative gearing, what is your plan for tackling this crisis of housing affordability in Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Obviously, our plans are reflected in the budget and I have referred Senator Whish-Wilson to that before. It is true that the Treasurer is doing some further work in relation to these matters and we will have some more to say on that in the near future. In the meantime, I commend to Senator Whish-Wilson Proverbs 17:28:</para>
<para>Even fools are thought wise if they keep silent, and discerning if they hold their tongues.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicare</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health, Senator Nash. I refer to the Prime Minister, who, on the eve of the 2 July election, gave an absolute guarantee that nobody would pay more to see the doctor because of his Medicare rebate freeze. Why then does the Productivity Commission's new report show that out-of-pocket spending on health is growing four times faster than public funding for health?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for his question. I note the Productivity Commission's reporting on this particular issue and I would say that GPs have always made their own decisions on who they bulk-bill and what they choose to charge their patients. That is absolutely clear: it is a matter for the GPs.</para>
<para>Under this government, spending on health is growing as the senator referred to in the question. We have Medicare spending going from $19.4 billion under Labor to $22.8 billion under this government. When it comes to bulk-billing rates, they have gone from 82.2 per cent under Labor to 85.4 per cent under the coalition government—increases. Actually, it is those on the other side in the Labor Party that have the poor health record. There is quite a long list, so I will just start with some of it. Labor cut a billion dollars from Medicare for dental and means-tested it. They cut $664 million from Medicare for GPs. They cut $500 million from Medicare for pathology. They cut $450 million from Medicare safety net protections. They cut $2.5 billion from pharmacy and medicines. They blocked access—it was the Labor Party that blocked access to life-saving medicines. They cut $4 billion from the private health insurance rebate for consumers and means-tested it. It is Labor that has a poor health record. The coalition has a strong record on health.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chisholm, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the Prime Minister's 'absolute guarantee', why has the Wheelers Hill clinic been forced to introduce a new charge of $20 for pensioners to see a doctor when they were previously bulk-billed?</para>
<para>An opposition senator: Great question.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take the interjection from the other side that said, 'Great question'. It may have been a great question if the senator had been listening to my answer to the first question. I actually answered it in the first answer. The answer is that general practitioners have the responsibility, they have the decision-making ability, as to what they are going to charge their patients and who they are going to bulk-bill. So it is entirely a matter for the clinic that the senator refers to to make their own decisions.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Chisholm, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the Prime Minister's absolute guarantee, why has Latitude 19 Health on Magnetic Island stopped bulk-billing general patients due to 'Medicare restrictions and cuts'? Why are regional Australians paying more for health under the Liberal-National coalition government?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>For the third time, I am happy to say this very, very slowly and very, very clearly so those opposite can perhaps follow the answer for the third time. Perhaps they could listen to the answer. They certainly do not listen to people in regional Australia. The answer is that those GPs in those clinics that the senator refers to make their own decisions about who they bulk-bill and about how much they are going to charge. I hope it has sunk in the third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, I refer the Minister representing the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Brandis, to revelations that Islamist activist Yassmin Abdel-Magied had her personal book tour of some of the world's most oppressive regimes paid for by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. Can the minister confirm that this information is true—yes or no? If yes, how much money did taxpayers contribute towards the book tour? Further, does the minister agree with Ms Abdel-Magied's view that the Islamic political ideology is at its core feminist, considering the fact that the Islamist republics and kingdoms visited by Ms Abdel-Magied practise and encourage legalised child marriage, female genital mutilation, female subjugation and public beheading of women who are allegedly caught committing so-called adultery, a term that can be used for sex outside of marriage—yes or no? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Roberts, for your question. I did see that report in this morning's press. I can advise you that Yassmin Abdel-Magied visited a number of countries in the Middle East to promote Australia as an open, tolerant and multicultural society. Ms Abdel-Magied met youth representatives, journalists, scientists, entrepreneurs, women's groups, sporting groups, academics, students, business leaders, diplomats and government representatives. The visit also promoted female participation in male dominated industries such as the oil and gas sector, and featured targeted engagements with young women considering careers in the fields of science, technology, engineering and maths. For example, Ms Abdel-Magied visited the Mohammed Bin Rashid Space Centre in Dubai to promote the role of women and youth in science and technology.</para>
<para>The visit was funded from the public diplomacy budgets of DFAT's Middle East posts and cost an estimated $11,485, comprising travel allowance and flights. There were no appearance fees.</para>
<para>The Australian government has always supported a wide range of initiatives that promote Australia as an open liberal democracy to an international audience. These initiatives build understanding, trust and influence to advance our national interests. DFAT supports speakers' tours by prominent Australians to promote understanding of contemporary Australia, including by media leaders and leaders from the Indigenous, diaspora, science and arts communities. For example, DFAT supported Ms Abdel-Magied to attend the ASEAN-Australia Emerging Leaders Program in Malaysia in 2012.</para>
<para>Senator, I note the observations you make, but that was the purpose of the visit and those are all the particulars of the visit of which I am advised by DFAT.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the minister aware of any taxpayer funded book tours of any Christian or Jewish authors who may have visited Christian and Jewish countries to spread a message perhaps of love, peace and tolerance—yes or no? If you are not aware, is your policy a direct and targeted funding of one political ideology over the other Australian peace, freedom and love based ideologies and religions—yes or no?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am aware of some that might answer the description that you have offered, Senator Roberts, though this is not a comprehensive list. But can I tell you that examples of similar public diplomacy visits include a funded visit by Mr Greg Sheridan of <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> to Indonesia in March 2016; a visit by the Reverend John Henderson, the General Secretary of the National Council of Churches in Australia, to the Holy See in November 2007; and, perhaps a little more broadly than the category you have identified, visits by Professor Ian Frazer, the creator of the HPV vaccine and 2006 Australian of the Year, to South-East Asia, and by Yassmin Abdel-Magied also to the ASEAN emerging leaders dialogue in Malaysia in 2010. So there are a wide variety of these visits, representing a wide variety of Australian points of view. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why does the department pay for an individual's book tour? Secondly, what profit did Ms Abdel-Magied make from her tour on taxpayer funds?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, with respect, I think it is a misdescription to describe this as a book tour. I have explained to you the nature of the engagements in which Ms Abdel-Magied participated and, as I told you, the cost to DFAT of $11,485 for her visit to the Middle East was composed entirely of travel allowance and flights. There was no money paid to Ms Abdel-Magied for appearance fees. These were all outlays associated with the travel. I dare say there were accommodation costs in there as well, but there was no personal fee or profit element to her from the visit.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Mining</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the very sophisticated Minister for Resources and Northern Australia, Senator Canavan. Can the minister provide an update on major resource projects in northern Australia, particularly in my home state of Queensland, where unemployment stands at six per cent and in Townsville is approaching nine per cent?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for his question. He is right to point out some the difficult economic circumstances that areas of regional Queensland are facing and have faced over the past couple of years. Many regional towns in Queensland have had unemployment rates higher than those rates, too, of above 10 per cent, given the downturn in the mining sector and, a couple of years ago, a very severe drought as well. But there is hope on the horizon for regional Queensland. We have had good rains for the agricultural sector, and, in the last few months, a number of coalmines have reopened or announced their reopening in Queensland, including at Collinsville and Baralaba, and expansions of coalmines at Peak Downs and Saraji that will create hundreds of jobs.</para>
<para>Just before Christmas, there was a fantastic early Christmas present for North Queensland, when Adani announced their plans to put even more jobs in regional Queensland. In particular, Adani announced that their project will have its headquarters in Townsville—in a regional city, not a capital city. They are creating hundreds of jobs, not just in the mining sector but also secretarial, administrative, accounting and legal jobs, in a major regional centre in our country. That is a massive positive for Australia to have that development going in there.</para>
<para>At the same time, they announced that Mackay and Bowen will be the regional headquarters for their rail and port operations—an important fillip for the town of Bowen; it has done it very tough—and that other towns will be service centres as well, including some smaller towns like Clermont, Moranbah, Collinsville, Charters Towers, Emerald and Rockhampton. This is the biggest news for North Queensland for decades, perhaps the biggest news, as I said, since the Beatles were here in the sixties, because it was back then that the Thiess brothers got together with Mitsui and built a mine in the Bowen Basin—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cameron</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You weren't even born!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Brandis</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was there! Arthur and I were there!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and that created enormous wealth through North Queensland. This new mine will open up the first coal basin for 40 years—</para>
<para>An opposition senator: It was before you were born!</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and create even more jobs throughout Queensland— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Carol Brown</name>
    <name.id>F49</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You would remember it, Barry!</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sadly, I do! Can the minister outline what employment opportunities will be provided by the Adani Carmichael mine project?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was saying in answer to the first question, this is not just a mining project. This is about opening up by an entire new coal basin, the first coal basin to be opened in Australia for more than 40 years. That will create massive amounts of economic opportunity for other mines to open up in those areas and for the service industries that service mines—be they legal, accounting or others—to be located in regional Queensland near those centres of wealth. That will create jobs right across our economy, which is very important if we want to develop our nation.</para>
<para>Later this year, Adani will announce where the hub for their fly-in fly-out operations will be, and Rockhampton and Townsville are competing for that. Mackay is still interested, I know, too. And that will mean even more families will move to regional Queensland as well, and that is a great thing for our country because that will take pressure off Sydney and Melbourne and other areas of our country where perhaps we have too much congestion. We have other areas in our country to develop. We have enormous expanses of land in North Queensland. We would love to have more Australians, but we need to have jobs to attract the Australians there. This project will deliver them in their thousands.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I know the minister and the Greens know the answer to this next question. Can the minister advise what obstacles stand in the way of the Adani project?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would like to say up-front that I recognise the support that the Queensland Labor government has provided to this project. They are working very closely with the federal government to ensure that a major investment in our nation can happen, because it is important for our country. It is important we work together as federal and state governments—and indeed, I recognise the great work that the local governments have done as well—so we are all working together to see this happen.</para>
<para>But there are still obstacles in the way. There are still a number of court cases outstanding, where a number of groups are taking actions, but not to try and protect the environment. They are transparently trying to hold up the creation of jobs in our country, not because they feel there is something wrong with the approval processes but because they think that by delaying the project through the court system they can stop the project altogether. I do not believe our judicial system should be held to ransom by these groups who want to oppose those jobs and stop this development in this country. We need to see this project go ahead. We are working with other political parties and other governments— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Procurement</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Attorney-General, Minister representing the Minister for Defence. It is axiomatic that, if Defence wastage is eliminated or significantly reduced, the same defence capability outcomes can be achieved for less money whilst maintaining strong local content and jobs. With that in mind, can the minister advise how much public money has been spent on defence projects in the last decade where a capability never made it into service, including but not limited to the Navy Seasprite helicopter, which in effect never flew; and, more recently, the Army's LCM2000 landing watercraft, which were too big to fit in the amphibious landing ship it was intended they be deployed on?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much indeed, Senator Xenophon, and thank you for your courtesy in giving me advance notice of this question. I do have some information for you that has been supplied by the Department of Defence.</para>
<para>The Turnbull government's <inline font-style="italic">2016 Defence white paper</inline> is the most comprehensive plan for the safety and security of our nation ever. It provides the funding needed to ensure that the Australian Defence Force can keep us and our borders safe both now and well into the future. Over the next decade, the government will invest $195 billion in defence capability. Any cuts to defence funding, such as those, Senator Xenophon, which you have proposed, put at risk our plan to build the defence capability—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, Senator Xenophon?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Xenophon</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I am being egregiously misrepresented and, secondly, the question is about waste—about wastage in Defence—and I gave two specific examples where there is no doubt that these were projects that went off the rails that cost taxpayers a lot of money.</para>
<para>The PRESIDENT: Senator Xenophon, in relation to the matter about you being misrepresented, there are other avenues for you to do that, if that is the case. In relation to your point of order, I advise the minister that he has one minute and 13 seconds in which to answer the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, in relation to the projects that have not been successful in the past, one of our 2013 election commitments was to conduct the first principles defence review to ensure that Defence is appropriately structured and organised and has the right business practices in place to support the Australian Defence Force in the 21st century; and, as I understand the position, Senator Xenophon, the instances you have given predate the first principles defence review. The review set out a comprehensive plan for transformational change throughout the defence organisation to ensure we can deliver on the record investment set out in the defence white paper and to reassure you, Senator, and to reassure all Australians that every dollar will be spent efficiently.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Since the Department of Defence's projects of concern list was established in 2008, 16 projects have been put on the list and subsequently remediated. In relation to those 16 remediated projects, how much public money was spent above and beyond the projects' original allocated budgets?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, I am advised that the projects-of-concern process, with its early intervention, aims to combat any major concerns through project remediation, as you acknowledged in your question. The process allows all parties to form a common plan of action and to avoid a blame culture. This is a successful process and one that the government continues to support. What the Senate should actually be concerned about is your proposed $5.8 billion cut to the defence budget.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Xenophon</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, that is an outrageous misrepresentation. I ask him to withdraw that. I have never said that. That is simply outrageous.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is a debating point, Senator Xenophon, and there are other junctures in the Senate program—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Xenophon</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask him to withdraw it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am not going to direct the minister to withdraw. There is nothing for him to withdraw. Minister, you have the call.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am not directing the Attorney-General to withdraw. Point of order, Senator Wong, on the same point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, just to clarify, I understand you are refusing to direct him or ask him to withdraw, but the minister can make a decision as to whether he takes on board the request.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course the minister can, but I have ruled there is no point of order. If senators think they have been misrepresented, there are other avenues for that to be sorted out. Attorney-General, you have the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, since you were good enough to provide me with advanced notice of the question I actually took the trouble of obtaining a brief from the Department of Defence and the information I have given to you is information provided to me by the Department of Defence. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Noting the significant increase in blowouts in the US F-35 fighter program, significant concerns about the aircraft raised by the US Director of Operational Test and Evaluation, Dr Michael Gilmore, and the review of the Joint Strike Fighter project initiated by US President Trump, will the government urgently review its current plan in respect of the aircraft since it has a budget of more than $16 billion and President Trump is essentially saying the price is a rip-off?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRANDIS</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Xenophon, the F-35A is the most capable and affordable aircraft to meet Australia's needs well into the future, and that view has recently been confirmed on a bipartisan basis, I might say, by the Joint Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade. In his Senate confirmation hearing in the United States the now Secretary of Defense, General Mattis, said: 'The President has talked about the cost of the Joint Strike Fighter, but has in no way shown a lack of support for the program. He just wants to get the best bang for the buck.'</para>
<para>This approach is already reaping benefits. In early February the price for the next lot of Joint Strike Fighters for the first time was set below US$100 million. It is expected that these prices will continue to come down as production increases and further productivity gains are realised.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Broadband</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Regional Development, Senator Nash. <inline font-style="italic">The</inline><inline font-style="italic">Young Witness</inline><inline font-style="italic">,</inline> in a story titled 'NBN is a dud in Young say locals', reports the NBN is delivering speeds half of those being spruiked by the member for Riverina, Michael McCormack. What does the minister have to say to residents of Young like Daryl Close, who says the government's second-rate NBN is 'rubbish in Young'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do not agree with what the senator has put forward. Indeed, I was actually in Young last Friday and I was talking to local people and talking to the journalist who had written the article that the senator referred to. I was talking to them about this and many other issues, as I do as I am spending my time out in regional communities. Interestingly, if the shadow regional communications minister had bothered to read <inline font-style="italic">The Young Witness</inline>, he would realise that I responded in <inline font-style="italic">The Young Witness</inline> and put forward the facts, which I made very clear.</para>
<para>I am aware that some retailers are not passing on the full benefits available through the NBN. I am aware of that and I accept that when those occasions occur that some customers are annoyed, but the ACCC has actually intervened in this matter. It is holding retailers to account. It is going to make sure that there is clear and accurate information on what they are putting forward.</para>
<para>It is this government that is providing better communications for people in regional areas, be it the internet or mobile phones. Indeed, we have canvassed in this place before that the previous Labor government spent not one cent on mobile phone black spots. Here we have now the shadow regional communications minister reading the front page of <inline font-style="italic">The Young Witness</inline>, not following up and not getting an understanding of the issues. Unlike the Labor Party opposite, we on this side of the chamber are absolutely aware that we need to ensure better communications for regional people.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Does the minister agree with Glen Blizzard, an IT specialist in Young, who says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">When you have a 100-year-old copper it will have to be replaced eventually. The Government would have saved a lot of money if they just put politics aside and went ahead with the original plan.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for her question, but I totally disagree. It would not have saved us money. If we had gone with Labor's plan, with the Conroy plan, it would have cost us $30 billion more. That is not a saving. I know that those on the other side are not very good on economics, but that is not a saving. If those on the other side paid some attention they would know that Young, which now has the NBN, would not even have the NBN yet if it were not for the coalition because Young was not even on the rollout schedule for Labor. The shadow regional communications minister needs to get his facts right before he sends his senators in here to ask questions.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, your final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer to the minister's first speech:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Copper Age was 5,300 years ago, and that is where copper belongs.</para></quote>
<para>Why did the Turnbull government not leave copper in the past where it belongs instead of giving regional Australians a degraded and slow network which will not stand the test of time?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am absolutely delighted that somebody in the Labor Party has bothered to read my first speech! I am absolutely delighted! If they had kept reading they would have learnt a lot more about regional Australia and probably a lot more about telecommunications and technology than they currently know. If anybody had bothered to tell Senator O'Neill, they would have been able to inform her that technology has moved on in the last 12 years. We can now do things with copper that we simply did not know about 12 years ago. It is this side of the chamber, not the Labor Party, that is delivering better telecommunications to regional Australia, and those on the other side know it. It is unfortunate they got sent in to ask this question, because all it does is highlight that the coalition, the Liberal-National Party, are the ones that are delivering for regional Australia.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Child Care</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Education and Training, Senator Birmingham. Will the minister update the Senate on the cost pressures faced by families with small children in child care?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Bushby for his question. I know Senator Bushby and, indeed, all members opposite and over here are well aware that many Australian families face real pressures in their childcare costs. On this side of the chamber we also have answers to how we are going to address those childcare costs, unlike those opposite. On this side of the chamber we recognise that already this year thousands of Australian families have hit a financial cliff in relation to their childcare rebate. The $7½ thousand rebate they received has simply run out and between now and the end of the financial year they face a very difficult choice. They choose either to work fewer hours and fewer days or to pay the full cost of their child care, often meaning they go to work for no particular real or meaningful benefit. We appreciate that, which is why the coalition is determined to abolish the childcare rebate cap that exists for all families earning less than $185,000. Ours is a meaningful change that will make a real difference to low- and middle-income Australian families, allowing them to choose the hours they work and the days they work without the fear of falling off the childcare cliff. We recognise this will support the 94,000 families who are estimated this year to face this childcare cliff, but it will also support tens of thousands more families who will be empowered to make a choice that better suits their financial circumstances.</para>
<para>Modelling suggests that around 230,000 Australian families will choose to work or to work more as a result of our childcare reforms—reforms that will allow them to do what suits their families, to pursue their careers, to make the choice to earn more money and to grow their own personal prosperity. All of this is supported, because we will eliminate this cap and better direct subsidies to support those on the lowest incomes so that they get more support for their childcare bills than ever before. These will be real reforms that will make a real difference for hard-working families. (<inline font-style="italic">Time expired</inline>)</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bushby, your supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could the minister further update the Senate on how the Turnbull government is acting to address this important issue for families?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Bushby. Our reforms are going to make a real difference to families. Let me give the Senate a couple of examples. One example is of a hard-working family with two parents going to work and earning about $80,000 a year. It is a family with two children attending long day care service for three days a week. Under our reforms that family will, in net terms, be around $3,000 better off a year. For that $80,000 family, $3,000 a year is a lot of money. That example is in net terms, taking into account family tax benefit changes as well as the benefit of the new childcare subsidy. Similarly, a single parent family earning around $50,000 with one child in child care for three days a week will be around $2½ thousand a year better off thanks to our changes. They will be better off because they will not hit that childcare cliff that families are currently falling off. They will be better off because they will be getting a higher rate of childcare subsidy. They will be better off because they will be able to choose to work more hours and the hours that suit them best.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Bushby, your final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BUSHBY</name>
    <name.id>HLL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister apprise the Senate of what is standing in the way of the Turnbull government's plans to address childcare affordability for families?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Those opposite, sadly, are standing in the way of helping Australian families to better meet their childcare costs and in the way of empowering Australian families to better choose the hours they work, the days they work and the conditions they work in. Those opposite went to the last election with but one childcare policy—a policy that was to increase the childcare rebate cap from $7½ thousand to $10,000. Do you know what their policy would have done? It would have seen a fee escalation, as occurred before, and it would have put $176 million per year in the pockets of families earning more than $250,000. They would have been helping the wealthiest Australians, whereas our reforms aim to help those who are the hardest working and those who are earning the least. We are shifting the balance of the childcare rebate to help those who are earning the least, to give them the chance to choose to work more, and to help those who need that help the most.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicare</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health, Senator Nash. I refer to the new Minister for Health, Greg Hunt, who says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I have and we have a rock solid commitment to the future of Medicare …</para></quote>
<para>Given the new minister's commitment, will the minister confirm the government will abandon its six-year freeze on Medicare rebates?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can indeed confirm that this government has a rock-solid commitment to the future of Medicare. I am not going to be lectured by those on the other side about the Medicare freeze and I will tell you why, because many people listening might not know that it was actually Labor that introduced the Medicare freeze, and indeed it was the member for Sydney. It was reported in <inline font-style="italic">Australian Doctor</inline> on a 22 May 2013, 'Doctors can afford rebate freeze, says Plibersek.' Not only did they introduce it; they said doctors can afford it. She said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I understand that GPs have all sorts of expenses in running their surgeries and employing staff and so on, but the average billing from Medicare is more than $350,000 a year.</para></quote>
<para>Ms Plibersek said she accepted some GPs would opt out of bulk-billing as a result of the freeze, but she hoped that not many would take this course of action: 'I'd be disappointed if a lot of people made that choice,' said the Labor minister at the time. She dismissed concerns that the freeze would pressure doctors to compromise care—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pause the clock. Senator Gallagher on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallagher</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know Senator Nash is keen on talking about Labor, but the question—and she has taken more than half of her time— was, given the new minister's commitment, will the minister confirm that the government will abandon its six-year freeze on Medicare rebates. That is the question that we were asking of the minister.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will remind the minister of the question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Mr President—I did, I thought, answer that at the outset. I was disappointed that the senator stopped me, because I was just about to say that the previous Labor minister had said about this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Will some people respond in a way that is unhelpful for their patients? Perhaps.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pause the clock. Senator Wong on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a point of order on relevance. From Senator Brandis in response to Senator Xenophon and now this minister, we really do have an abuse of question time. Ministers are asked questions, and the one question was: given the new minister's commitment, will the minister confirm the government will abandon its six-year freeze on Medicare rebates? We understand that some political hyperbole is part of how we deal with question time, but this minister has spent some 1½ minutes talking only about a former Labor minister—can't she answer the question? Is she unable to answer the question?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I did hear the minister at the outset confirm that Medicare would be maintained, but the minister did not go directly to the exact question—she was relevant, but not directly relevant to the exact question. I remind the minister of the question, and she has 29 seconds in which to answer.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think it is entirely appropriate that I have made the comments I have so far, because the Australian people deserve to know when Labor ask a question about the Medicare freeze that it was Labor that brought the Medicare freeze in. It is this government that is going to ensure we have a sustainable Medicare into the future, unlike those opposite, who economically do not recognise that we have to make sensible decisions to ensure that sustainability. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Will the minister confirm that the government will abandon its cuts to Medicare bulk-billing incentives for vital tests and scans as part of his 'rock-solid' commitment to the future of Medicare?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The coalition is absolutely committed to increasing affordable bulk-billed services, and that includes tests and scans. We made a commitment at the last election to reduce regulatory cost pressures on pathology providers, and we struck a deal with the pathology sector that will improve compliance regarding the charging of fair market value rents, which the senator may not be aware of, for pathology collection centres by landlords. These changes will allow the pathology sector to continue to provide all Australians with affordable access to pathology services through maintaining the current bulk-billing rates.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister give a rock-solid commitment to Medicare if the government will not abandon its six-year Medicare freeze?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NASH</name>
    <name.id>e5g</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We will absolutely give a rock-solid commitment to Medicare. The new minister, Minister Hunt, did that and we as a government do that—we give a rock-solid commitment to the future of Medicare. I do not know how many times I have to say that to those opposite before it sinks in. It is this government that has spent more on Medicare than ever before—$22.8 billion; it was only $19.2 billion under Labor, an increase in spending on Medicare. The bulk-billing rates under the coalition government are higher than those opposite delivered, higher than ever before, at 85.4 per cent as opposed to 82.2 per cent under Labor. Anybody listening would realise that under the coalition spending has increased and it is the coalition that is committed to Medicare. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Food Security</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BACK</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for International Development and the Pacific, Senator Fierravanti-Wells. Can the minister advise the Senate what the Turnbull government is doing to improve food security in our region and how this helps to alleviate poverty?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Back for his question. Food security is vitally important to our regional security. Some 80 per cent of the world's extreme poor live in rural areas, and many of these people are working in agriculture. Of course this is also the case in the Indo-Pacific area. Food security in the Indo-Pacific region is of concern on a number of fronts—due to pressures of population growth, natural resource decline, urbanisation and adverse climatic events. So, sustainable agriculture and fisheries are very important for food security in our region. Our aid program in agriculture and food security focuses on three areas: firstly, strengthening markets to increase market participation by the poor, with a particular emphasis on women's empowerment and making finance available to them to leverage private investment; secondly, improving productivity along food and agriculture value chains and promoting more efficient and sustainable use of natural resources; and, lastly, promoting policy, governance and reform to assist our partner countries to achieve sustainable and inclusive growth and open trade.</para>
<para>I want to talk about a couple of examples of Australia's agriculture aid investment, and this includes a $48 million market development facility which is working across five countries—in Fiji, Timor-Leste, Pakistan, Papua New Guinea and Sri Lanka—to strengthen market access for the poor. By 2021, MDF's work will result in US$68 million in additional income for a quarter of a million men and women, including almost 12,000 jobs benefiting almost 800,000 households. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Back, on a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BACK</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Will the minister outline how Australia's overseas development aid program is being used to support improved agriculture and food production in our region?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hunger places very serious constraints on economic growth and further entrenches poverty. It in turn affects the health of people and in turn affects health security and regional security in our area. The <inline font-style="italic">2030 agenda for sustainable development</inline> recognises that addressing food security aims to end hunger and malnutrition and also improves agricultural productivity and sustainability. Many countries in the Indonesia-Pacific face the challenge of a triple burden: the burden of malnutrition, with its inadequate intake of calories; micronutrient deficiencies; and obesity. They all prevail simultaneously. These issues, combined together, create major issues of insecurity for health security. Consequently, investment— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Back, on a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BACK</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister explain how strong economies in our region contribute to regional stability, trade and business opportunities for Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In 2015, our Australian aid program activities resulted in agriculture and fisheries production increasing in our region by over US$57 million and close to 443 poor women and men adopting innovative agricultural and fisheries practices. So many of our region's poor are engaged in agriculture and therefore investment in agriculture is a highly effective way of achieving our aid objectives of enhancing prosperity, reducing poverty, increasing economic growth and therefore increasing the viability of and prosperity in our region. Strong economies in our region contribute to regional peace and security and offer increased trade opportunities not just for those countries but also for Australia.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Brandis</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>63</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia Post</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wish to correct an answer I gave in response to a question last Thursday. I inadvertently referred to the Public Governance, Performance and Accountability Act 2013, the PGPA Act, rather than the Australian Postal Corporation Act 1989 in regard to the setting of executive remuneration. The PGPA Act is the relevant act for the reporting of executive remuneration, which is a point I had made earlier in the answer.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Taxation</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAMERON</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by Senator Brandis to the question I asked.</para></quote>
<para>Once again, we see a government in absolute chaos. We see a rabble of the government. We see Phil Coorey from the <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline> exposing the discussions that are taking place within the government to modify capital gains tax, yet this morning we see the Assistant Treasurer out debunking this. One minute they are going to do something about it and the next minute they are not. We had Senator Brandis today saying that they had no intention of changing capital gains tax. Well, what a folly this is. That is because every time a young couple try to buy a house in my home state of New South Wales—and I am sure it is the same in other states around the place—they have to front up against an investor who is getting tax breaks through capital gains tax and negative gearing.</para>
<para>We have said consistently for over a year to get rid of it and level the playing field between young people trying to get into their first home and investors who may have five, six, seven, a dozen or more than a dozen homes. Why should we be subsidising investors to make it hard for young people in this country to get a start and to be able to buy a house? The article in the <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline> clearly demonstrates that the coalition are at war internally on this issue.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Brandis</name>
    <name.id>008W7</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have been told the article is erroneous.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CAMERON</name>
    <name.id>AI6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can interject all you like, Senator Brandis, with your haughty, superior approach. You can do that all you like. What I am interested in are young people who are trying to buy a home. I know what your position is. You are heading off to London on the taxpayer teat to live in the mansion in London that is supplied for you when you go to London. That is where this guy is off to. He does not have to worry about what his future is. We know that he is going to get sent off to London because he is the worst minister in the government. In a recent review in the Adelaide press, he got four out of 10. Even Barnaby Joyce, the Deputy Prime Minister, got more than that. That is not much good for Senator Brandis.</para>
<para>You will be okay, Senator Brandis. You will be one of the leaners. Remember the lifters and leaners that you were on about? You are going to lean on the public purse in London. We know what you are all about. You do not care about young people who are trying to get a start with a house. You do not care about young people being at a disadvantage with the developers and the investors coming in and getting an advantage from capital gains tax and negative gearing. Why would you care? You are off to London. You will not have a care in the world. The Prime Minister wants to get rid of you. The coalition wants to get rid of you. So, do not come here lecturing us about the issues that we have to deal with, when you are leaning on the public purse back in London—the 'lifters and the leaners'! You were supporting that, and you will be leaning well back in London, living off the public purse. We know what you are about. And young couples in my home state of New South Wales are battling to get access to a home.</para>
<para>This is the mob that wants to cut pensions, make you work until you are 70 for your pension. And no matter what Senator Brandis says today, you can never trust anything this government says. You could not trust them on marriage equality. You could not trust them on climate policy. You could not trust them on the GST. You cannot trust them on income tax cuts. They are in retreat on company tax cuts, the capital gains tax—they are all over the place on it. They have been backflipping on the Gonski school reforms. They have backflipped on the Australian republic. They backflipped on income tax cuts to the states. They are an absolute rabble of a government. Never believe anything that comes out of Senator Brandis's mouth, because he is a temporary politician. He is off to London, off on the public purse. He is going to be a great leaner in London. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BACK</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, you have got to the bottom of the barrel, haven't you, when you roll out dear old Senator Cameron? He talks about lies and he talks about being unable to trust, and the first thing that comes to my mind is 'Mediscare'. Remember 'Mediscare'? On 30 June, in the evening, Senator Cameron: a phone call from a friend of mine in rural WA telling me that his aged mother, in a nursing home, had a call—not a robo-call, but from someone representing this mob—asking her what she was going to do on 1 July, because the coalition, in government, was going to withdraw all aged-care facilities and Medicare. And don't you walk out of here now, Senator Cameron, after the nonsense that you have just projected, because we know very, very well what you are about.</para>
<para>Let me tell you about capital gains tax. The Treasurer only the other day—and on 16 February, this very day, the following day—the government has no intention of supporting Labor's policies on negative gearing or capital gains tax. I reckon I can understand that. I can read it, and I hope people who are listening can also do so.</para>
<para>I came into the parliament having been in business for some 45 years, and I wanted to see no increase in taxes and I wanted to see smaller government. And whilst I am in this place I will continue to prosecute that case. But let me tell the people of Western Australia—and my good colleague Senator Dean Smith knows—what is happening on 11 March when Labor is in government. The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour. I go back to when that miserable Treasurer, that failed Treasurer, Mr Eric Ripper was the Treasurer under the Gallop government. He remained there. Mr Gallop was not a bad bloke; he could not handle the pace, and it is to his credit that he made that decision, but poor old Eric stayed on under the failed Carpenter government as well. And do you know what he did, Attorney-General? He decided to introduce—I will call it—the new premium property tax. This was to be a tax affecting 900 owner-occupiers, particularly in Perth, and it was to put a tax on unimproved land value.</para>
<para>So, if anyone wants to guess what my good friend Mr Mark 'Sneakers' McGowan will do in the unlikely and hopeless event of him becoming the next premier of the state, look no further than Mr Eric Ripper. And do you know, the outburst: there was an absolute outburst of rage. And do you know who it came from? Mainly from people who voted Labor. Why? Because it is the fact that in this country, except for the Senator Camerons of this world, everybody these days is aspirational. People have moved on from the 1920s version of the old union Labor—families, children move on. They want to get into the property market. And of course over time, owners of properties that they themselves purchased or that were maybe left to them by parents or whatever find that values go up.</para>
<para>So, what did dear old Mr Ripper have to do? Senator Smith remembers. He had to humiliatingly backtrack, because his own constituents rejected him. And what was happening in 2001, Attorney-General? We were coming up to a state election, and so many Labor candidates knew very well that people in their electorates would have been severely disadvantaged. But do not worry too much about what might happen into the future; learn from the events of history. Those who ignore them are bound to repeat them. What did Mr Keating do as Treasurer of this country in the Hawke period? He introduced negative gearing on property. And do you know what happened? Rents all went up. Why? Because people went out of the housing market. There was then an overdemand and a lower supply, and of course up went the prices.</para>
<para>The simple fact of the matter is that it is not the intention of the Turnbull government or its Treasurer, Mr Morrison, to change capital gains tax. Why? You pay capital gains tax only when you actually make a profit. You have invested. You have encountered a risk. You invest, you sell, you make a profit and you pay some tax. You pay the tax only when you make a profit. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We have seen leaks in the past couple of days in the <inline font-style="italic">Financial Review</inline>—reports that the Turnbull government is planning capital gains tax reforms that they intend to roll out for the main budget. Actually, I would welcome it. I would really welcome it if the government was actually undertaking some work on housing policy. I have not been in this place as long as other senators—coming up to two years, in fact—but in the entire time I have been here, I have been attending the hearings of economics estimates. I and other senators have asked Treasury officials what is happening in terms of a policy for housing affordability and how this is being dealt with within the economics portfolio, and I have watched as Treasury officials, when asked who is responsible for housing affordability in this government, look at one another, literally scratch their chins and have to confer quietly before coming back with an answer that they suppose that it is in one of the other line agencies, because until very recently this government's view was that housing affordability was a soft social issue off there in the never-never and something they did not have to worry about as an economic policy concern. That is not my view, it is not the view of the Labor Party and I would venture that it is not the view of the very many Australians who, as Senator Back notes, have aspirations to enter the housing market.</para>
<para>I come from and represent the great state of New South Wales. The city I live in, Sydney, is the second-least affordable city to buy a house in the world. When I speak to young men and young women—and I did speak to a young woman about this in recent days—they tell me about what happens when they go looking for a house. These are young professionals, and they are quite flexible about where in metropolitan Sydney they might live, so long as it would actually be practical for them to continue to work in the professions that they have worked so hard to acquire and have been educated for. They are in despair because every single time they go to an auction, they are faced with somebody seeking to make a property investment, and the person that they are bidding against has a whole range of tax advantages that are not available to a young first homebuyer hoping to enter the market. That is the great unfairness of the current tax arrangements around housing that Labor has sought to address.</para>
<para>After all this time, the coalition seems to have finally received the message that they too ought to be worried about housing affordability. I think the reason it took them so long to come to this rather obvious realisation or conclusion is that they have a tin ear for the challenges that face normal people in the economy. There is no better example than seeing senior members of the government suggest that the way out of this is to have mum and dad stump up for a house, or to move away from your job and into a regional community. They have absolutely no idea of the challenges that are facing young Australians seeking to enter the housing market.</para>
<para>Of course, in their response to this we do not see any of the processes of grown-up government that we were promised. We do not hear about these things in an orderly way; we read about it as a leak in the newspaper. It is the way we learn quite a lot about the inner workings of the Turnbull government, because, as others in this chamber have observed, it is characterised by extraordinary disunity, riven by division and unable to determine an ideological or policy direction. The truth is that the Prime Minister does not lead his party, and whenever he seeks to set a direction, it is followed by confusion. In the last couple of days we have had the Prime Minister say, in a guarded way, that the government has no plans to adopt Labor's policy. That is a very cautious kind of response. We have had Senator Cormann say, more definitively:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The government has absolutely no intention of reducing the capital gains tax discount or making changes to negative gearing.</para></quote>
<para>Who knows what to think? Last week the government lost a senator, but today, in denying these reports, it seems that they have lost an entire tax reform agenda—again. This is a government completely unable to establish an economic direction for the country.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me start with some congratulations to opposition senators, because in this take note session they have at least focused on an issue that is very important to Australian families and to young Australians who are aspirational and want to buy and own their own homes. Of course, the Turnbull government also recognises that this is an important priority, because we in Australia know that home ownership supports stronger communities and social cohesion in our communities, which in turn provide employment opportunities and positive educational and health outcomes.</para>
<para>But a proper and real understanding of the core underlying issues that affect housing affordability in our country is absent. You have been good at identifying the problem but very poor at understanding the underlying issues driving poor housing affordability in some parts of our country. The first point is that there is no single housing market in our country. When you come here and talk about housing affordability, it is important to be clear and distinct as to what part of the country you are talking about. I give full credit to Senator McAllister because she did identify the very real issues in Sydney. We know that housing prices are increasing in Sydney and Melbourne, but we also know that they are falling in places like Perth and Darwin.</para>
<para>Why are they changing? Why are they rising in some places and falling in others? It is because there are some underlying economic issues, and I suspect, Senator Ketter, you know this. I suspect you know that population growth is an important element of housing affordability. I am sure you know that interstate migration is an important element of housing affordability, and I know that as a member of the Senate Committee on Economics you will be well aware that the low interest rate environment is also an important factor. Let me supply some facts around those underlying themes that Labor senators have been quick to ignore. The first fact is that Australia's population growth has averaged 1.6 per cent between 2005 and 2014, almost the highest in the OECD. That clearly affects demand. In addition, there has been a reversal of interstate migration from mining states, including in my home state of Western Australia, back to Sydney and Melbourne, where there are stronger labour markets—again, a key driver of demand. Let me add to that that, while lower interest rates have made things easier for current home owners with mortgages, they have made it harder for first homebuyers to enter the market by increasing demand for housing and making it harder to save for a deposit. We are agreed: there is a priority; there is an issue around housing affordability. But what you fail to do is to be accurate about the underlying influences and provide a policy response to those drivers of demand.</para>
<para>But it is also about land release. You do not have to be Einstein to know that matters around land release do not fall within the domain of the federal government. They are responsibilities that, properly, are held by state and local governments. So it is important to work with state, territory and local governments to facilitate, more readily, land access.</para>
<para>Of course, this brings me back to the alternative policy position of Labor. Rather than having a constructive debate about population growth, interstate migration and a low-interest-rate environment, you would like to bring a sledgehammer to property prices with ill thought out changes to negative gearing that actually will not solve the underlying issues of housing affordability. Instead, they could crash the housing market. Again, we are agreed: we know this is an issue. We know it is more important in some parts of our country than in other parts of the country. But Labor's approach does not provide a solution. It does not provide a long-term plan to improve housing affordability for Australian families. We are agreed: it is a priority, it is important, but you do not have a clear policy response.</para>
<para>So the question is one of what the Commonwealth can do, with state, territory and local governments, to improve issues around demand. What can we be doing to improve issues around land release and land supply. It was interesting that you did not— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KETTER</name>
    <name.id>244247</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to address the question Senator Cameron asked of Senator Brandis. We are talking about taxation policy—capital gains tax in this instance. The coalition likes to trot out on a regular basis the mythology that they are the more competent economic managers and that Australians can feel more confident in relation to tax with the coalition. I made a contribution in taking note of answers yesterday, where I have attempted to put the facts on the table when it comes to profligate spending. The IMF has quite clearly illustrated that it was under two periods of the Howard government that needlessly wasteful spending occurred.</para>
<para>When it comes to the level of taxation, the government likes to trot out this notion and mythology that they are the lower-taxing government. I noted that last year Mr Stephen Koukoulas, a well-known economist, put some facts together in relation to the figures concerning the top 10 years of tax-to-GDP ratios since 1980-81. It might surprise the senators opposite to know that eight of the top 10 years of tax-to-GDP were under liberal governments: 2004-05, 2000-01 et cetera. An even more extraordinary fact was that of the 10 lowest tax-to-GDP ratio periods under governments of either persuasion, all 10 of those periods were under Labor governments. Labor, in fact, has the record of having a lower tax-to-GDP ratio.</para>
<para>We look at taxation as being fair and we want to see fair outcomes for people, so we want to look at the taxation system as a whole. Once again—and I have made this point regularly—when it comes to holistic reform of our taxation system the coalition squibbed that. Prime Minister Abbott initiated the process of an orderly review of our taxation system, the issue of a tax white paper. Prime Minister Turnbull came in and scrapped all of that, putting aside all of the submissions that were put to the government and to Treasury. All the work that was done to look at the tax system just disappeared.</para>
<para>My colleagues have talked about the fact that we have a government here riven by internal division in respect of this issue of capital gains tax. We are witnessing a slow-motion train wreck on this government's watch. Today we heard Senator Brandis talk about Labor's policies regarding negative gearing and capital gains tax—that it would lead to increasing rent prices. The Turnbull government tries almost weekly to mount a weak scare campaign on Labor's housing affordability policy, but cannot agree on whether Labor's policy will crash or increase prices.</para>
<para>Minister O'Dwyer has come out previously on both sides of the fence on this particular issue. She has argued that housing affordability is an issue that can be dealt with in a couple of different ways. We saw Treasurer Scott Morrison turned inside out over the reform of negative gearing. He has argued that there are excesses in negative gearing, but he has been rolled in cabinet, with the Prime Minister pushing for reform of negative gearing. And there was at House of Representatives Economics Committee report on home ownership that produced no recommendations.</para>
<para>We know that the government is very divided. We know that high-profile Liberals like Mike Baird, Rob Stokes, Jeff Kennett and federal Liberal backbenchers have also called on Prime Minister Turnbull and Mr Morrison to consider reforms to negative gearing. Last week the IMF called on the Australian government to reform the capital gains tax discount. It argued:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The [Commonwealth] tax system provides households with incentives for leveraged real estate investment that likely amplifies housing cycles.</para></quote>
<para>So there we have it: the official verdict on that.</para>
<para>We know that this is ideologically driven madness, which we have seen time and time again from the coalition. They are looking at cuts to family payments, cuts to Centrelink, cuts to Medicare and cuts to community legal centres— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion to take note of answers moved by Senator Cameron be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by the Minister for Finance (Senator Cormann) to questions without notice asked by me today.</para></quote>
<para>I would like to explain, in the five minutes I have, to young Australians and to struggling Australians who do not own a home and who want to live the dream of home ownership in this country why capital gains tax concessions need to be removed from our policy schedule. Capital gains concessions were brought in in 1999 by a Liberal government that wanted to stimulate the property market, allegedly to help drive rental supply in this country. These concessions were given to investors—investors who bought real estate. That capital gains tax concession was extended to other forms of asset classes, but primarily it was brought in to help drive investment in real estate.</para>
<para>Capital gains tax concessions mean that when you sell a property and you make a profit—presuming that you make a profit on the property, which most Australians do, considering we have had almost bubble conditions in capital cities such as Sydney, Melbourne, Brisbane and Perth in recent decades—rather than pay full capital gains on that investment property in line with your income, you get a 50 per cent discount, which of course makes it more lucrative for you. But what this led to is a perverse incentive—a distortion in the economy—that allowed especially investors to turn over properties quickly, to flip them, and to own a large number of properties.</para>
<para>The statistics are absolutely clear that, of those Australians who use the capital gains tax concession, especially in the property market, the ones who benefit the most are the wealthiest in this country. Couple that with negative gearing, which was also designed by an earlier Labor government to stimulate the housing market and drive housing supply. Those two combined together, which allow you to deduct losses against your income from owning a property, make it even more lucrative to invest in the real estate market. I do understand that there are Australians who are struggling to get ahead, that they go out of their way to work hard and invest in the property market and that they make the most of these incentives, but they are in the minority. Most Australians who benefit from capital gains tax concessions and negative gearing are wealthy Australians.</para>
<para>Here we have a situation in this country where we have a housing affordability crisis, where young Australians have no hope and almost, sadly, no expectation that they are going to be able to buy a property, let alone an investment property. I think our current Secretary to the Treasury said that the 'bank of mum and dad' was where young Australians were most likely to ever get their first home. We also have low-income Australians who will never break into the property market, who have to rent properties, if they are lucky—if they are able to get a rental property and able to afford that.</para>
<para>So I ask you a simple question. We know that these concessions that were put on property investment in this country nearly 20 years ago are causing a distortion. We know they are adding to the housing affordability crisis. All the experts tell us this. Even the Business Council of Australia has a policy to reduce capital gains tax concessions—even the Business Council of Australia does. The question is: why won't this government remove these distortions, if we know they are going to play a key policy role in making housing more affordable for young Australians and for low-income Australians? That is the question that I would like answered by this government.</para>
<para>They always say, 'We need to release land supply,' and that is also true. That is an important part of this. But we know that this distortion in the market needs to be removed. Everybody tells us that, but it is not. My guess is that there are very powerful interests behind maintaining these schemes and incentives. The Property Council of Australia and other groups want to see these in place and lobby the government really hard.</para>
<para>One thing that does give me some hope is that the government has been clear and a little bit tricky in its language. It said it will not adopt Labor's policy for removing capital gains tax concessions, but it may have another policy prescription that we will hear about in a few months. It is a break in the clouds in the storm that maybe this government is going to tackle revenue crisis in this country. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUDGET</title>
        <page.no>68</page.no>
        <type>BUDGET</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration by Estimates Committees</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present additional information received by committees relating to the following estimates:</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Document not available at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>68</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Human Rights Committee</title>
          <page.no>68</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, I present the <inline font-style="italic">Human rights scrutiny report: report 1 of 2017</inline>.</para>
<para>Ordered that the report be printed.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to have the tabling statement incorporated into <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The </inline> <inline font-style="italic">statement</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Parliamentary Joint Committee On Human Rights</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Tabling Statement</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">THURSDAY 16 FEBRUARY 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I rise to speak to the tabling of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights' Report 1 of 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The committee's report examines the compatibility of recent bills and legislative instruments with Australia's human rights obligations. Twenty-eight new bills are assessed as not raising human rights concerns, the committee is seeking further information in relation to six bills and legislative instruments, and the committee has also concluded its consideration of a number of matters<inline font-style="italic">. </inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Before discussing the report further, I would like to take this opportunity to speak a little about the progress of the committee's inquiry into Freedom of Speech in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The committee received approximately 11,500 items, including approximately 9,500 form letters; 375 items accepted by the committee as submissions and published to date; and approximately 1,400 items accepted by the committee as correspondence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The committee has completed seven public hearings to date, in Canberra, Hobart, Melbourne, Sydney, Adelaide, Perth and Brisbane. It is scheduled to conduct a further hearing in Canberra tomorrow, and its final hearing in Darwin next Monday, 20 February 2017. The committee is due to report on 28 February 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I will now turn to a brief discussion of the three matters that the committee finalised in this report:</para></quote>
<list>Although the Law Enforcement Legislation Amendment (State Bodies and Other Measures) Bill 2016 is now law, the committee finalised its examination of compatibility with Australia's international human rights obligations, pursuant to the committee's statutory mandate;</list>
<list>The committee also finalised its consideration of the Privacy Amendment (Notifiable Data Breaches) Bill 2016, concluding that this bill promotes the right to privacy, but noting it applies only to unauthorised access to, or disclosure of, personal information or data loss;</list>
<list>Lastly, the committee finalised its consideration of the Sex Discrimination Amendment (Exemptions) Regulation 2016, noting the Attorney-General's response that more time was needed for the Western Australian Government to consult with the community on options for reform to two Western Australian Acts that are subject to a particular exemption from the <inline font-style="italic">Sex Discrimination Act 1984</inline>.</list>
<quote><para class="block">I encourage my fellow Senators and others to examine the committee's report to better inform their understanding of the committee's work.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With these comments, I commend the committee's Report 1 of 2017 to the Senate.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Additional Information</title>
            <page.no>69</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Chair of the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee, Senator Paterson, I present additional information received by the committee on its inquiry into the provisions of the Interactive Gambling Amendment Bill 2016.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Public Accounts and Audit Committee</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>69</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Joint Committee of Public Accounts and Audit, I present report No. 460: <inline font-style="italic">Public sector governance—</inline><inline font-style="italic">i</inline><inline font-style="italic">nquiry based on Auditor-General's report 29 (2015-16)</inline>. I seek leave to incorporate the tabling statement in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The </inline> <inline font-style="italic">statement</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Document not available at the time of publishing.</inline></para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Publications Committee</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>69</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Chair of the Publications Committee, I present the fourth report of the Publications Committee.</para>
<para>Ordered that the report be adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economics References Committee, Migration Committee, Select Committee on the Murray-Darling Basin Plan</title>
          <page.no>70</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Government Response to Report</title>
            <page.no>70</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present three government responses to committee reports as listed at item 15 on today's <inline font-style="italic">Order of Business</inline>. In accordance with the usual practice, I seek leave to have the documents incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The documents read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Government response to the Senate Economics References Committee report:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Future of Australia's Steel Industry—Interim Report</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">February 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Background</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 26 November 2015, the Senate referred the following matters to the Senate Economics References Committee (the committee) for inquiry and report:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) The future sustainability of Australia's strategically vital steel industry and its supply chain; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Any other related matters.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On the dissolution of the Senate and the House of Representatives on 9 May 2016 for a general election on 2 July 2016, the parliamentary committees of the 44th Parliament ceased to exist. At that time, the committee's inquiry lapsed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 11 October 2016, the Senate agreed to the committee's recommendation that the inquiry be re-referred in the 45th Parliament and for a final report to be presented by 1 December 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The committee resolved to re-open submissions with a closing date of 17 February 2017. This was notified on the committee's website and additional direct invitations were issued to stakeholders.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">At the time of the tabling of the committee's interim report on 1 December 2016, the committee had received 39 submissions to the inquiry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 1 December 2016, the committee tabled its interim report which included three recommendations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Go vernment response</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes the recommendations of the Interim Report and Senators' additional comments, and advises that it is working closely with Arrium's administrator, KordaMentha, and the South Australian state government to secure the long-term sustainable operations of the Whyalla steelworks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During 2016 the Government made significant commitments to help secure the ongoing viability of the Whyalla steelworks and support the wider region. This included:</para></quote>
<list>a $49.2 million loan which is being provided by the Export Finance and Investment Corporation for the purchase of beneficiation equipment for Arrium's iron ore operations near Whyalla;</list>
<list>the commitment to bring forward a project for the Australian Rail Track corporation to upgrade 1,200 kilometres of rail line between Adelaide and Tarcoola in Partnership with Arrium; and,</list>
<list>the $20 million Upper Spencer Gulf Jobs and Investment Program to be delivered by the Department of Infrastructure and Regional Development.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Building on these commitments, the Government has highlighted further loan support which can be made available to the new owners of Arrium's Whyalla steelworks through the Clean Energy Finance Corporation and the Export Finance and Insurance Corporation. This loan support will help attract investments for the long-term sustainable operations of the steelworks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government understands the challenges facing Arrium and the wider steel sector, including pressure from low prices impacted by global overcapacity. The Government has recently implemented a range of initiatives that support Australian steel making and the manufacturing sector more broadly. These include:</para></quote>
<list>further improvements to the administration of the anti-dumping system announced on 9 September 2016, which boost the efficiency and effectiveness of measures imposed to provide relief for injured industries. These improvements include a new investigation model to improve the timeliness, quality and evidence base of investigations, as well as a more active, risk based approach to address proven circumvention activities;</list>
<list>the introduction of the new <inline font-style="italic">Code for the Tendering and Performance of Building Work 2016</inline> which sets out new requirements for preferred tenderers for Commonwealth-funded building work, including the need to provide information on the extent to which domestically sourced and manufactured materials will be used to undertake the building work; and,</list>
<list>the update of the Commonwealth Procurement Rules, taking effect from 1 March 2017, to ensure equitable access to government contracts for Australian businesses, in particular small business, including consideration of the economic benefit of a procurement to the Australian economy.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will continue to liaise closely with the Administrators as they prepare Arrium's businesses for sale, and will work with the new owners of the Whyalla steelworks to help secure the ongoing viability of its operations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Government response to the Joint Standing Committee on Migration report: Seasonal change</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Inquiry into the Seasonal Worker Programme</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">FEBRUARY 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Overview</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government welcomes the report by the Joint Standing Committee on Migration into the Seasonal Worker Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is committed to ensuring that the Seasonal Worker Programme delivers results for all stakeholders and continues to contribute to:</para></quote>
<list>the economic development of participating countries through the provision of employment experience, skills and knowledge transfer and workers being able to send money back to their home countries; and</list>
<list>assisting Australian employers who are unable to source enough local Australia workers to meet their seasonal labour needs by providing access to a reliable workforce, able to return in future seasons.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Seasonal Worker Programme is a whole-of-government programme administered by the Department of Employment in collaboration with other agencies including the Department of Immigration and Border Protection, the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Department of Agriculture and Water Resources, the Fair Work Ombudsman, the Australian Taxation Office and Austrade.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the Seasonal Worker Programme, many thousands of workers from Pacific Island countries and Timor-Leste have benefited from the opportunity to work in the agriculture and accommodation sectors where employers cannot source enough Australian labour.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The majority of seasonal workers that participate in the programme have a positive experience and are able to remit earnings back home to their families and communities. A study by the World Bank into remittances under the Seasonal Worker Programme pilot in 2011 indicated that a typical seasonal worker earned $12,000-$13,000 in Australia, of which approximately $5,000 was sent back home. The World Bank is currently updating this study.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Seasonal Worker Programme provides a reliable and returning seasonal workforce to employers. Employers sourcing labour under the Seasonal Worker Programme report efficiencies by having access to a productive seasonal workforce with reduced absenteeism and staff turnover.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There have been significant reforms to the Seasonal Worker Programme over the last eighteen months. These include the uncapping of the programme from 1 July 2015 so that demand is driven by employers' need for labour and expanding it to the broader agriculture sector. A trial of the programme in the tourism sector in Northern Australia has also commenced.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will continue to work with stakeholders to communicate these reforms and build the ongoing success of the Seasonal Worker Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Government response</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government's response to <inline font-style="italic">Seasonal Change </inline>is set out in detail below.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Role of seasonal workers in the horticulture industry Recommendation one:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government does not support this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government does not support further reviews of the Working Holiday Maker and Seasonal Worker Programmes by December 2017. A number of comprehensive reviews into these programmes have either been completed or are currently underway.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has completed a review of the Working Holiday Maker Visa programme. The Rural Industries Research and Development Corporation completed a study on the productivity of new migrants, including seasonal workers, in Australia on 12 October 2016.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A number of domestic and international reviews of the Seasonal Worker Programme will be undertaken during 2017. These reviews will take account of the changes to expand and streamline the Seasonal Worker Programme announced by the Government in June 2015 in <inline font-style="italic">Our North, Our Future: White Paper on Developing Northern Australia</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">They will:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) assess the development impact of the programme on workers, labour sending communities and countries, with a particular focus on gender aspects.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) assess the productivity of seasonal workers and the costs, benefits and other factors impacting on farm profits associated with the Seasonal Worker Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) ensure Australian job seekers are not being displaced by the Seasonal Worker Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will continue to consider a number of issues and suggestions that emerged during the Working Holiday Maker Tax Review. In addition, in October 2016, the Government established a Migrant Workers' Taskforce, to target those involved in unscrupulous labour hire practices and the exploitation of vulnerable foreign workers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Workforce requirements for sectors that may benefit from seasonal workers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Recommendation two:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee recommends that the Australian Government undertake improved qualitative and quantitative research on full-time, part-time and seasonal labour workforce requirements to better inform Government policy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Department of Employment collects information from around 12,000 employers across the country each year about their recent recruitment experiences. The <inline font-style="italic">Survey of Employers</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Recruitment Experiences </inline>was modified in January 2016 to identify employers with seasonal staffing requirements. Findings on the recruitment and retention difficulties experienced by employers who have seasonal staffing requirements will be available in early 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Expanding the Seasonal Worker Programme Recommendation three:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee recommends the Australian Government consider expanding the Seasonal Worker Programme to include the aged, child, and disability care sectors, which have already been included in the White Paper on Developing Northern Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government does not support this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Seasonal Worker Programme is designed to meet short-term seasonal labour needs of Australian employers in industries that experience seasonal peaks. The skills requirements and lack of seasonal peaks in demand in the aged, child and disability care sector go beyond the parameters of the Seasonal Worker Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To address non-seasonal labour needs in Northern Australia, the Government is piloting the potential for workers from specific Pacific Islands to work in aged care, as well as other sectors, through the Pacific Microstates–Northern Australia Worker Pilot Programme. This initiative was announced by the Government in June 2015 in <inline font-style="italic">Our North, Our Future: White Paper on Developing Northern Australia</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The pilot will run for five years, allowing up to 250 citizens (around 50 per year) from Kiribati, Nauru and Tuvalu to work for two to three years in Northern Australia. It aims to address labour and skill shortages in Northern Australia and provide workers from Pacific Microstates with better access to employment opportunities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Impact on the Australian labour force Recommendation four:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government agrees that attracting, employing and retaining local labour in the broad agriculture sector is vital to ensuring that the industry remains sustainable in the long term. The Seasonal Work Incentives for Jobseekers pilot will provide incentives for young jobseekers to undertake seasonal work in the horticultural industry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government also has a range of initiatives to support young people into employment:</para></quote>
<list>jobactive providers across Australia have the flexibility to tailor their services to a job seeker's assessed needs to assist them take up employment, including seasonal employment opportunities;</list>
<list>Transition to Work is a new service to support young people aged 15–21 on their journey to employment. The service will provide intensive, pre-employment support to improve the work-readiness of young people and help them into work (including apprenticeships and traineeships) or education;</list>
<list>Empowering YOUth Initiatives support new, innovative approaches to help unemployed young people aged 15 to 24 years to improve their skills and move toward sustainable employment; and</list>
<list>a new Youth Jobs PaTH (Prepare—Trial—Hire) to support young job seekers into jobs will start from 1 April 2017.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Increased access for women and youth workers Recommendation five:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee recommends that the Australian Government implement the following measures to increase gender equality and provide women greater employment opportunities:</para></quote>
<list>The Department of Employment review the memorandums of understanding with Seasonal Worker Programme participating countries;</list>
<list>The Australian Government assist interested countries in the establishment and development of programmes focussed on gender equality;</list>
<list>That Pacific Agreement on Closer Economic Relations Plus negotiations include discussions on gender equality.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">All Memoranda of Understanding with partner countries set out critical success factors for the Seasonal Worker Programme, which state that the arrangements will be effective if opportunities for employment facilitate inclusive participation by women and under-represented groups.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To support this, the Government is working with Pacific Island countries and Timor-Leste to improve women's participation in the Seasonal Worker Programme. A key objective of the Labour Mobility Assistance Program ($5.8 million, 2016–2017) is to increase the number of women from Pacific Island Countries and Timor-Leste taking up and benefitting from seasonal work opportunities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the Labour Mobility Assistance Program each partner country has negotiated a work plan that includes specific activities to improve gender equity in the Seasonal Worker Programme. For example, in Papua New Guinea the Australian funded 'Women in Agriculture Program' will promote the participation of women agricultural workers, and help returning seasonal workers share and apply their new skills to the local industry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In September 2016, the Office for the Chief Trade Adviser for PACER Plus released a Sustainability Impact Assessment of the potential economic, social and environmental impacts of trade liberalisation under PACER Plus on the Pacific Islands Forum Countries and made recommendations for mitigating these impacts. The Sustainability Impact Assessment found that PACER Plus will generally improve the livelihoods of Pacific Island populations, contribute to poverty alleviation, and in some instances narrow the gender gap by providing more employment opportunities to women. Australia will provide development assistance to support Forum Island Countries' participation in PACER Plus; this assistance will include resources dedicated to improving women's ability to benefit from trade.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Development outcomes in the Pacific Recommendation six:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government does not support this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As outlined in the response to Recommendation 3, the Seasonal Worker Programme is designed to meet short-term seasonal labour needs of Australian employers in industries that experience seasonal peaks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is piloting the potential for workers from specific Pacific Islands to work in aged care, as well as other sectors, through the Pacific Microstates–Northern Australia Worker Pilot Programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Microstates Pilot will allow the Government to test an employment pathway for Australia Pacific Technical College health and community services industry graduates. Because these industries are not seasonal in nature, the Seasonal Worker Programme is not suited to employment in these areas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible legislative and other impediments Recommendation seven:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The purpose of labour market testing is to ensure that overseas workers are a supplement to, and not a substitute for, Australians. As the report of Joint Committee notes, 'the requirement to undertake market testing is not overly burdensome' (Section 9.27).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The variation in labour market testing requirements reflects a range of factors, primarily the duration and skill level of employment opportunities and the purpose of the visa programme that an employer is looking to utilise. For example, the community would reasonably expect the labour marketing testing requirements to vary according to whether an employer is seeking one highly skilled individual for up to four years (under a 457 visa) compared to short term, seasonal opportunities for a number of unskilled or lower skilled positions (under a 403 visa for the Seasonal Worker Programme).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In all cases employers' recruitment practices must satisfy Australian equal opportunity, anti- discrimination and workplace relations laws. Vacancies and job advertisements published by Australia businesses cannot discriminate against Australian applicants and should not invite applications from persons holding certain types of temporary visas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Recommendation eight</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Committee recommends that the Department of Treasury undertake a review of current superannuation arrangements for Seasonal Worker Programme participants, having regard to:</para></quote>
<list>whether or not current arrangements meet the objectives of the Seasonal Worker Programme;</list>
<list>The barriers to accessing accumulated superannuation funds for seasonal workers and measures to improve access.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The review should be conducted primarily with a view to ensuring seasonal workers receive their full entitlements as efficiently and quickly as possible.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Seasonal Worker Programme participants are subject to the same superannuation rules as most other overseas workers on temporary visas, including that they can claim their superannuation after they leave Australia and their visa is cancelled or expires by applying for a Departing Australia Superannuation Payment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Government agencies are working to address barriers to participants claiming their superannuation and improve claim rates. Some of the initiatives include educating seasonal workers and governments on the claims process and encouraging governments from labour sending countries to help seasonal workers complete their application.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government through the Labour Mobility Assistance Programme is currently updating and enhancing information provided to seasonal workers on living and working in Australia. This includes providing improved pre-departure information that is translated to increase understanding by participating governments' labour sending units and seasonal workers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Department of Treasury, Australian Taxation Office and other Australian Government agencies will continue to identify opportunities to streamline administrative processes for seasonal workers to receive superannuation payments once they have departed Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Compliance and related issues Recommendation nine:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government response to this recommendation will be addressed in its response to Recommendation 32in the Senate Education and Employment References Committee report</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">A National Disgrace: The Exploitation of Temporary Work Visa Holders</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Government response to the Senate Select Committee on the Murray-Darling Basin Plan report: Refreshing the Plan</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">February 2017Introduction</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Senate Select Committee inquiry on the Murray–Darling Basin Plan presented its final report on 17 March 2016. The majority report made 31 recommendations addressing issues that are of great importance to farmers and communities throughout the Murray–Darling Basin and other stakeholders. The Committee received almost 400 submissions to this inquiry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Minority reports from the Australian Labor Party, the Australian Greens, and Senator Nick Xenophon support the Murray–Darling Basin Plan and associated water reform. The report by the former Senator John Madigan includes 19 recommendations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are a number of recommendations made in the Committee's final report which focus on state issues, such as the operation of state desalination plants, water entitlement purchases by state governments and management of water storages. All such issues are for the relevant state government to consider in the first instance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government recognises the importance of the issues raised in the report and provides the following responses to the recommendations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">The Australian Government</inline> <inline font-style="italic">'</inline> <inline font-style="italic">s approach to implementing the Basin Plan</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government is determined to implement the Basin Plan in a way that ensures the economic and social wellbeing of Basin communities, while delivering on the environmental objectives of the Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the north, the Northern Basin Review has provided an opportunity to closely examine the impacts of water recovery on Basin communities and explore the most effective way to deliver environmental outcomes. The highly variable nature of the less‑regulated northern Basin presents unique challenges and opportunities in water resource management.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Northern Basin Review was enabled under the Basin Plan because at the time it was written, less was known about the northern Basin than the more developed southern connected system. The data generated as part of the Northern Basin Review and the subsequent recommendations made by the Murray-Darling Basin Authority will lead to amendments to the Basin Plan, and guide its implementation. On 22 November 2016 the Northern Basin Review was released together with proposed Basin Plan amendments, including those arising from the Northern Basin Review. Public consultation on the proposed Basin Plan amendments will occur between November 2016 and February 2017. The Government is grateful to the many stakeholders who have engaged in the review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Sustainable Diversion Limit (SDL) Adjustment Mechanism provides an opportunity to optimise the economic, social and environmental outcomes in the southern Basin. Supply measures provide the opportunity to deliver environmentally equivalent outcomes without requiring as much water to be recovered from consumptive purposes. Thirty-seven supply measures were agreed to by the Murray–Darling Basin Ministerial Council on 22 April 2016. A previous independent stocktake showed that supply measures have the potential to provide an offset of around 508 gigalitres in the southern Basin.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Following a request by the Ministerial Council the Basin Plan was amended to provide for a second notification of measures to the SDL adjustment mechanism by 30 June 2017. This additional step will allow for a second tranche of supply measure projects to be considered. Basin state ministers also reiterated their request for Basin state government officials to consider opportunities for a wider range of complementary projects, such as carp control, to provide triple bottom line benefits under the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Ministerial Council also agreed to the types of projects that may be considered as efficiency measures under the SDL Adjustment Mechanism. In accordance with the Basin Plan, any efficiency measure projects must have positive or neutral social and economic outcomes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A list of all agreed SDL adjustment projects is available on the Authority's website.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee majority recommendations</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. The committee recommends that no further reductions in water entitlements occur until the Northern Basin review, and any subsequent assessments, have been completed. The committee recommends that the review should also consider alternative means of water recovery, particularly in the Condamine-Balonne catchment, in order to minimise the economic and social impact of the Plan in the Northern Basin. This would include consideration of the following options:</para></quote>
<list>recovery of water upstream of Beardmore Dam;</list>
<list>use of private storages to more efficiently store environmental water and reduce evapotranspiration (the sum of evaporation and plant transpiration) losses;</list>
<list>implementation of environmental works and measures to more efficiently delivery environmental water to key environmental assets; and</list>
<list>temporary trade of water to make best use of Commonwealth water assets when environmental needs have been met.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Murray–Darling Basin Authority has completed its review of the northern Basin. The focus of the review was to improve the evidence base from which decisions about water recovery settings could be confidently made using a triple-bottom line approach — weighing up social, economic and environmental considerations. As a part of the review, the Authority has consulted with various stakeholder groups in the north to seek their views on the implementation of the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Authority also considered a range of actions in addition to water recovery that could be implemented to reduce the adverse social and economic impacts of the Basin Plan while also providing opportunities for improved water management to enhance the use of environmental water.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As a result of its review, the Authority has proposed that the overall water recovery target in the northern Basin reduce from 390 gigalitres on average to 320 gigaligtres provided there are commitments from Basin state governments to implement a range of measures to improve water management.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Through the Department of Agriculture and Water Resources, the Australian Government has established the Northern Basin Programmes Taskforce to investigate how to achieve the remaining water recovery in the northern Basin in ways that minimise the impact on communities. Drawing from key industry and community stakeholder input, the taskforce will provide advice on ways that avoid further water purchase and deliver social and economic benefits to communities. The Taskforce may also make recommendations to assist progress of toolkit measures.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Taskforce may also make recommendations to assist progress of toolkit measures, including temporary trade of environmental water. Temporary trade of water from one location to another provides protection for water holders to ensure the water reaches its destination. As a toolkit measure, temporary trade is important to ensure environmental water can be delivered at appropriate times to key environmental assets, and will help to meet environmental targets under the proposed 320 gigalitre water recovery target.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the Healthy Headwaters Water Use Efficiency Program, entitlement holders above Beardmore Dam became eligible to participate in this on-farm infrastructure programme from January 2016.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will consult with Basin state governments on its water recovery strategy and ensure that any recoveries are strategic and minimise risk of over-recovery.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. The committee recommends that the Murray-Darling Basin Authority, as part of its ongoing social and economic work, undertake and publish a thorough assessment of the estimated and actual social and economic impacts of the implementation of the Plan, including of pursuing the remaining water recovery for the Condamine-Balonne catchment and other similarly distressed areas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline> and Basin Plan require regular periodic reporting of social and economic impacts. The first of these reports will be completed in 2017, with a second report due in 2020 and subsequent reports every 5 years thereafter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Murray–Darling Basin Authority is collecting social and economic data to inform its role in evaluating and reviewing the Basin Plan, including through the Northern Basin Review. Reporting of this work occurs in a number of ways including through Basin Plan annual reports and in the reports prepared for the Northern Basin Review. The social and economic assessment conducted as part of the Northern Basin Review is available on the Authority's website.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3. The committee recommends that the MDBA address the existing over-recovery in the Macquarie Valley and other 'terminal' systems such as the Gwydir Valley, with a view to limiting recovery to amounts which address valley-specific environmental needs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan identifies only the Lachlan and Wimmera-Mallee as terminal systems. The northern Basin is regarded as a connected system. Both the Macquarie and Gwydir valleys connect into the Barwon−Darling River above certain flows.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The final recovery amounts required in these rivers will not be settled until the process to amend the Basin Plan is completed. Public consultation on the current proposed Basin Plan amendments, which includes amendments related to the Northern Basin Review recommendations, is taking place between November 2016 and February 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed new local recovery volume in the Macquarie is 55 gigalitres, which is a 10 gigalitres reduction from Basin Plan settings. The results of the northern Basin review show that local environmental needs in the Macquarie can be met with this lower volume.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The proposed local recovery target for the Gwydir Valley is the same as the current Basin Plan settings. The modelling scenario used as the basis for the proposed amendment assumed that the Gwydir would not need to contribute to the shared reduction amount. The opportunity exists for the New South Wales and Queensland governments to request changes to the way in which the shared reduction is distributed between catchments, which may minimise the risk of over‑recovery in any catchment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4. The committee recommends that federal and state governments examine options for securing Broken Hill's water supply as recommended by the Broken Hill City Council, including raising the trigger point for releases, and improving infrastructure storage at Menindee Lakes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Broken Hill's water supply is the responsibility of the New South Wales Government. On 16 June 2016, the New South Wales Government announced that it would fund the construction of a pipeline from the River Murray to secure water supply to Broken Hill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government is committed to improving the management of the Menindee Lakes in partnership with the New South Wales Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The rules for the operation of the Menindee Lakes, including the trigger points, are an important element of the operation of the River Murray system. Any rule changes require the agreement of all relevant Basin jurisdictions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5. The committee recommends that an environmental watering plan be developed for the Menindee Lakes, provided that Adelaide's water supply and that of South Australian irrigators and landholders dependent on the Murray, is secure.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There is an existing agreement between the Australian and New South Wales Governments, which provides funding to investigate infrastructure and operational changes at the Menindee Lakes which could help reduce significant evaporation losses without adversely impacting third parties including downstream users and the environment. As part of this work, the New South Wales Government is investigating the environmental watering requirements for the Menindee Lakes to ensure that the environmental values are maintained under potential changed operational arrangements being investigated for the system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6. The committee recommends the Commonwealth assume liability for damage to private property from environmental watering events, including to both landholders and third parties, except to parties who have given prior consent to such flooding.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal responsibility for any adverse impacts due to the release of water from storages is with the relevant authority that manages the storage. Operators are bound to act at all times in accordance with the relevant operating procedures in fulfilling orders placed for consumptive or environmental water.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">River operators will not deliver environmental flows at levels above the operational limits that apply to all water deliveries, including irrigation orders.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7. The committee recommends that the MDBA and state governments address the issue of third party impacts from environmental watering events during the development of constraints proposals, and clearly communicate with landholders who are likely to be affected by such events.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The development of constraints proposals is the responsibility of Basin state governments as set out in the <inline font-style="italic">Intergovernmental Agreement on Implementing Water Reform in the Murray</inline><inline font-style="italic">‑Darling Basin</inline>. The Murray–Darling Basin Authority's 2013 Constraints Management Strategy, developed under the Basin Plan to assist states in the development of constraint proposals, stated that projects need to:</para></quote>
<list>recognise and respect the property rights of landholders and water entitlements holders;</list>
<list>not create any new risks on the reliability of entitlements;</list>
<list>be identified in consultation with affected parties to determine if impacts can be appropriately addressed and mitigated to enable changes to proceed;</list>
<list>identify and aim to achieve net positive impacts for the community;</list>
<list>be worked through in a fair and transparent/equitable way; and</list>
<list>work within the boundaries defined by the <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline>, the Basin Plan and relevant state water access and planning systems.</list>
<quote><para class="block">State government agencies in Victoria, New South Wales and South Australia will be responsible for the ongoing consultation with potentially affected landholders and communities on their proposals to deliver higher flows while managing any potential impacts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">8. The committee recommends that the MDBA review its communication methods, particularly with regard to projects still in development such constraints proposals, and improve its ability to incorporate the views of communities and landholders into decisions and reports.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Murray–Darling Basin Authority has its communications methods under continuous review.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9. The committee recommends the federal government work with the Victorian government to ensure adequate accountability and scrutiny of the Goulburn Murray Water Connections Project, by initiating a judicial inquiry into the operation of the Goulburn Murray Water Connections Project. Further, given the use of Commonwealth funds on the project, the committee recommends the Australian National Audit Office should consider an audit of the project.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian and Victorian governments jointly commissioned an independent review of the Goulburn-Murray Water Connections Project Stage 2 which identified concerns about the ability of the project to deliver the agreed outcomes on time and within budget. In response to the review, the Victorian Government - which is responsible for delivering the project - is resetting the project using the remaining funding. The reset announced by the Hon. Lisa Neville on 7 September 2016 was agreed with the Australian Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Auditor-General, Mr Grant Hehir has advised the Inquiry Committee that on the basis of the number of previous investigations and reviews undertaken, and the commitments of the Australian and Victorian Governments, he does not intend to commence an audit of the project at this time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10. The committee recommends the government evaluate the effect on irrigators and the environment of the SA government purchasing irrigation water on the water market while declining to use its desalination plant. The committee also recommends the government undertake a study of the cost of upgrading pipeline delivery of water to irrigators and livestock owners on both sides of the lower lakes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in part.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government's financial contribution to the Adelaide desalination plant was subject to South Australia reducing its reliance on the River Murray as detailed in the <inline font-style="italic">Implementation Plan for Augmentation of the Adelaide Desalination Plant</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">South Australia has provided annual reports on Environmental Water Allocations, use and outcomes in line with the requirements in Schedule 1 of the Implementation Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SA Water trade is subject to the Basin Plan water trading rules, and their own State water trading rules. These rules are consistent for all water market participants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the Sustainable Rural Water Use and Infrastructure Program, the Government provided $116.9 million to South Australia to fund a suite of projects under South Australia's <inline font-style="italic">Lower Lakes Integrated Pipeline Project</inline>. Three components funded were:</para></quote>
<list>Irrigation Water Component - to supply irrigation water from the River Murray at Jervois to the Langhorne Creek and Currency Creek districts.</list>
<list>Potable Water Component - to supply stock and domestic water to Narrung and Poltallock Peninsulas adjacent to Lake Albert and the Langhorne Creek District; and</list>
<list>Point Sturt and Hindmarsh Island Potable Water Pipelines component—to supply potable water for stock and domestic purposes to communities on Sturt Peninsula and Hindmarsh Island.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Any further investment in upgrading pipelines for irrigators and livestock owners at the Lower Lakes is a matter for the South Australian Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11. The committee recommends that Bird Island be removed by the South Australian Government and MDBA to improve water flow through the Murray mouth.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A combination of barrage flows and dredging is achieving the minimum connectivity targets required to allow sufficient tidal exchange between the ocean and the Coorong. This programme is managed under arrangements agreed by all Basin governments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The wet winter in the eastern states has produced large, unregulated flows down the river system. Recent wet conditions have significantly increased the volumes of water flowing over the barrages. These flows serve a number of important functions, such as improving water quality by flushing salt from the system and alleviating the need for dredging.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Removing Bird Island and other additional accumulated sand will not only require a major one‑off expense but would also incur additional dredging effort and cost into the future, as increasing connectivity increases the rate of sand deposition.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12. The committee recommends the MDBA calculate the economic value of fresh water evaporated from the lower lakes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Such an analysis would imply an objective of drying the Lower Lakes, which is not the Government's intention.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13. The committee recommends the government undertake a detailed study to inform whether a reassessment of the Coorong's Ramsar listing from a fresh water system to an estuarine system is more appropriate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Coorong, Lakes Alexandrina and Albert Wetland Ramsar site comprises twenty-three wetland types, including estuarine waters, coastal brackish/saline lagoons, permanent freshwater lakes, permanent freshwater marshes, and seasonally flooded agricultural land. As such, it is not listed primarily as a freshwater system, but as a complex of freshwater, estuarine and saline wetlands.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The South Australian Government is about to update the Ramsar Management Plan that is anticipated to include variable water levels actions, and management triggers for salinity and ecological connectivity, including Murray Mouth openness.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14. The committee recommends the government undertake cost-benefit analyses of the following options for adapting the management of the Lower Lakes and Coorong, and their social, economic and environmental impacts throughout the basin:</para></quote>
<list>removing all of the barrages;</list>
<list>removing some of the barrages;</list>
<list>modifying some of the barrages (such as Tauwitcherie and Mundoo);</list>
<list>allowing the ingress of salt water into the Lower Lakes during periods of low flow; and</list>
<list>investigating the construction of an additional lock at a location above Lake Alexandrina, such as near Wellington, SA, either in concert with the above options or as a single change.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Should such analysis indicate that one or more of these leads to more positive social, economic and environmental outcomes than the current basin plan, the committee recommends the Plan be amended accordingly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government has already funded the preparation of the 'Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth Recovery Project'<inline font-style="italic">.</inline> From this project 'A long-term plan for the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth' was developed to address the problems facing the Lower Lakes and Coorong by:</para></quote>
<list>restoring Coorong lagoons, lake and lakeshore habitat through revegetation, translocation of Ruppia, management of pests and protective fencing;</list>
<list>managing the barrages to provide greater variability in lake levels, including managing the lakes to lower levels;</list>
<list>reducing salinity levels in the Coorong lagoons through the south east flows restoration; and</list>
<list>supporting the reintroduction and recovery of native fish in the lakes, and</list>
<list>constructing fishways to allow some fish species to move more freely between the lakes, the Murray Mouth Estuary and the sea in order to complete their life cycles.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The negative effects of sea water introduction identified in the Long-Term Plan include acidity mobilisation, release of metal contaminants, hypersalinity, eutrophication and impacts on freshwater ecological functions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin state governments have also jointly funded work by SA Water to upgrade or automate the barrages to enable management which is more responsive to local conditions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15. The committee recommends the government commission an independent feasibility and hydrology study into a connector between Lake Albert and the Coorong to assess the environmental and economic costs and benefits of the connector, and compare this to the current practice of lake cycling.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Noted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This work has already occurred.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The feasibility, costs and benefits of a connector between Lake Albert and the Coorong was examined as one of six options in the Lake Albert Scoping Study undertaken in 2013-14 by the South Australian Government. The outcomes achievable by a Coorong Connector were directly comparable to Lakes Level Cycling (variable lake levels). The study was jointly funded by the Australian and South Australian governments under the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth Recovery Project.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16. The committee recommends the government direct the Productivity Commission to investigate the value of foregone production and food processing due to reduced irrigation water under the Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">19. The committee recommends that the Commonwealth Government request the Productivity Commission to undertake a full cost-benefit analysis of the Murray Darling Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The <inline font-style="italic">Water Amendment (Review Implementation and Other Measures) Act 2016</inline> requires regular reporting of social and economic impacts of the Plan. The first report is due in 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline> also requires a five yearly audit of the effectiveness of the implementation of the Basin Plan. The Productivity Commission will be undertaking the first of these audits in 2018.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the interim, the Murray–Darling Basin Authority continues to collect social and economic data to monitor and evaluate the effects of the Basin Plan. The Authority's most recent Basin Plan annual report was released in January 2016 and is available on the Authority's website. The 2016 annual report is expected to be released in early 2017.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There have been a number of other socio-economic studies undertaken to understand the costs and benefits of the Basin Plan by a range of organisations, researchers and consultants. These are available on the Authority's website. For example, the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and Sciences undertook modelling of the potential impacts of water recovery under the Basin Plan in 2010, including possible changes in the gross value of irrigated agriculture.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17. The committee recommends that the government assess the operation of the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Scheme to determine the priority of irrigation and energy production.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">18. The committee recommends the operation of the scheme be assessed, and adjusted as required, to give more effect to social, economic and environmental considerations of local and downstream communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Snowy Water Licence is scheduled for a statutory review in 2017. The review will consider the obligations placed on Snowy Hydro under the Licence. Governments will have the opportunity at this time to consider the balance between water and energy production priorities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">20. The committee recommends that state governments make every effort to promote SDL Adjustment Mechanism projects in their jurisdiction to achieve the 650GL target.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 22 April 2016 the Murray–Darling Basin Ministerial Council agreed to a package of supply, efficiency and constraint measures which have since been formally notified to the Murray‑Darling Basin Authority to allow for the formal operation of the SDL adjustment mechanism. The volume of adjustment from the package of supply measures will be determined through the assessment of the projects through the assessment framework set out in the Basin Plan. The final SDL adjustment outcome will not be known until the Authority has modelled the full package of proposals.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As requested by the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council, the Australian Government passed amendments to the Basin Plan (through the <inline font-style="italic">Water Legislation Amendment (Sustainable Diversion Limit Adjustment) Act 2016)</inline> in November 2016 to provide for a second notification step by 30 June 2017. This will provide Basin state governments with an opportunity to develop and refine projects that can further improve the outcomes of the Basin Plan while ensuring the continued success of irrigation in the Basin through sound investment in infrastructure whether on or off farm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">21. The committee recommends that no further buybacks of water occur and that action to recover the additional 450GL of water through efficiency measures is delayed until the SDL Adjustment Mechanism target is met and the socio-economic impacts of water recovery to date are known.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in part.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government is committed to implementing the Basin Plan in full and on time. The Government is also committed to adhering to the <inline font-style="italic">Intergovernmental Agreement on Implementing Water Reform in the Murray Darling Basin</inline> and implementing the Basin Plan in ways that deliver environmental outcomes while ensuring the social and economic wellbeing of Basin communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government's approach to water recovery in recent years has been to prioritise investment in productivity-enhancing water infrastructure and to cap surface water purchases at 1,500 gigalitres.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will review its water recovery strategy, including the need for any future purchase requirements, following the work undertaken by the Northern Basin Programmes Taskforce and the operation of SDL adjustment mechanism.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is working with the States to investigate efficiency measures programmes that meet Basin Plan requirements. The first programme, a revised on-farm irrigation efficiency programme, is being piloted in South Australia. Efficiency measures programmes will only roll-out where water users can realise benefits from participating and where there are neutral or beneficial socio-economic outcomes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the Principles for the newproposed <inline font-style="italic">IGA Schedule for implementing the SDL adjustment mechanism</inline>, the Murray–Darling Basin Ministerial Council agreed on 22 April 2016 that the Government would ensure that any efficiency measures programme would complement gap‑bridging efforts. Therefore, the Government will not run efficiency measure programmes in ways that could conflict with gap-bridging efforts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan requires that any efficiency measure programmes have neutral or positive socio‑economic outcomes. Open tender buybacks are not permitted as part of the efficiency measures programme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">22. The committee recommends that the government investigate the costs and benefits of a real-time national water trading register, and whether private platforms provide or can complement such arrangements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in part.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The former National Water Markets System Project was a co-operative Australian and state government initiative. A number of challenges were encountered in developing and seeking to provide a common platform across all states and the initiative was terminated in 2014.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government continues to monitor developments in technology as well as activity in markets with a view to future developments in trading platforms and the provision of information to markets.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Business Research and Innovation Initiative was launched on 17 August 2016 by the Government. The focus is to help drive innovation within Australia's small and medium businesses whilst addressing Government service delivery challenges.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">One of the five challenges launched is for proposals using emerging digital platforms to improve the ease of access to water markets, increase market participation, improve community confidence in Australia's water markets and also better assist in sustainable management of water resources.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">23. The committee recommends that the government coordinate with the basin state governments to undertake a comprehensive assessment of carryover rules and regulations and investigate the potential for amendment of the rules.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Carryover rules will be reviewed by the Basin state governments as part of the process of developing water resource plans for accreditation under the Basin Plan. Any carryover rules developed by the Basin state governments are to be included in water resource plans, where relevant under section 10.12(1)(b) of the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24. The committee recommends the government assess, objectively value and publish data on the various uses of water in the Murray-Darling Basin.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Data are published regularly by the Australian Bureau of Agricultural and Resource Economics and Science and the Australian Bureau of Statistics on the value of irrigated agricultural production in the Murray–Darling Basin. The Bureau of Meteorology publishes the National Water Account, which provides information about water stores and flows, water rights and water use. It also reports on the volumes of water traded, extracted and managed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Murray–Darling Basin Authority and Basin state governments also provide comprehensive reports on water take (surface and groundwater) on an annual basis.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further information on data on the use of environmental water is provided in response to majority report recommendation 26 below.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">25. The committee recommends that the government amend the <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline> to make clear the equal standing of economic, social and environmental needs and outcomes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2014, as required under Section 253 of the <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline>, a review of the Act was carried out by an independent Panel of experts - Mr Eamonn Moran PSM QC (chair), Mr Peter Anderson, Dr Steve Morton, and Mr Gavin McMahon.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Panel found that "the Act's framework does provide for the achievement of economic, social and environmental outcomes". It also emphasised the continuing challenge of balancing these outcomes in implementing the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan also specifies that a key objective is to optimise social, economic and environmental outcomes arising from the use of Basin water resources.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26. The committee recommends that the MDBA, Commonwealth Environment Water Holder and basin states conduct greater monitoring, objective evaluation and communication of environmental watering activities, and that the MDBA collate and publicly report this information.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan sets out the reporting obligations and principles for undertaking environmental monitoring and evaluation for state and Australian Government agencies, broadly as follows:</para></quote>
<list>Murray–Darling Basin Authority monitors and reports on the changes in environmental health at a Basin-scale (including the achievement of the Basin Plan's objective and the Basin-wide Environmental Watering Strategy targeted outcomes)</list>
<list>Basin state governments report on the changes in environmental health over time at a wetland and catchment scale</list>
<list>Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder monitors and reports on the outcomes from Commonwealth environmental watering (including the contribution to the Basin Plan's environmental objectives).</list>
<quote><para class="block">All environmental water holders report annually to the Authority on the use, purposes and results of environmental water use, including with regard to: the volume, timing and location of water delivery; the Basin annual environmental watering priorities, water quality and salinity targets; and, how local communities have been engaged. This information is collated by the Authority and informs its own evaluation and reporting processes, including the Basin Plan Annual Report.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder has a comprehensive monitoring, evaluation, reporting and improvement programme including operational monitoring for all Commonwealth environmental watering actions, and intervention monitoring that aims to understand the environmental response to watering actions. All Commonwealth Environmental Water Office monitoring and evaluation design documentation, reports and results are made available on the Commonwealth Environmental Water Office website and by distribution through local stakeholders.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27. The committee recommends that the government fund the expansion of the Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder's existing Long Term Intervention Monitoring Project to include more sites around the basin and provide greater monitoring and evaluation of basin environmental watering activities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commonwealth Environmental Water Holder's $30 million Long Term Intervention Monitoring Project is monitoring and evaluating the contribution of Commonwealth environmental water delivery in the Murray–Darling Basin over the 5 years to June 2019.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the project monitoring and evaluation is being undertaken at seven areas within the Murray–Darling Basin selected to provide optimal possible coverage of areas where Commonwealth environmental watering will occur and to complement monitoring activities already being undertaken by others including Basin state governments and the Murray–Darling Basin Authority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">28. The committee recommends the Victorian and NSW governments, as operators of the relevant storages, implement measures to mitigate cold water pollution that is undermining recovery efforts of native fish.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Noted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This recommendation is a matter for the New South Wales and Victorian governments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29. The committee recommends the MDBA conduct a review of the impact of cold water releases on native fish and develop risk assessments and mitigation strategies to ensure that cold water releases do not impact on native fish.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin-wide environmental watering strategy highlights the importance of addressing water quality issues such as cold water pollution to support native fish outcomes in the Basin.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Addressing cold water pollution is the responsibility of those owning and operating dams, which are generally state governments. In the case of the River Murray System, which the Murray-Darling Basin Authority operates on behalf of New South Wales, Victoria and South Australia, such studies have been undertaken and mitigation strategies are in place.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environmental water holders also help manage cold water pollution through the timing of watering actions. Environmental watering typically targets the cooler time of year (particularly in the southern Basin), to align with natural cues including those for native fish spawning. Other options include timing releases with downstream tributary flows, which will dilute the cold water, and releasing water at a rate and/or volume unlikely to cause a significant risk in receiving water temperatures.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">30. The committee recommends that the MDBA work with basin state governments to investigate the efficiency and effectiveness of salt interception schemes and combine their use and other complementary measures to manage salinity in the basin.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As part of the Basin Salinity Management 2030 (BSM2030) the Murray-Darling Basin Authority is working with Basin state governments to conduct a three year trial, commencing in 2016, to investigate the efficiency and effectiveness of operation of salt interception schemes in response to forecasted salinity risk outlook. Depending on the findings of this trial, the salt interception scheme operations will be refined to improve their efficiency and effectiveness.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the BSM2030, the salt interception schemes and other on-going and new salinity control measures will continue to play a critical role in protecting the river system from salinity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">31. The committee recommends the Commonwealth fund and facilitate accelerated work on the restoration of surface flows from the south-east of South Australia into the lower Coorong, and undertake a feasibility study into the potential for redirecting all existing drainage discharges from the South East into the Coorong.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in part.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The South East Flows Restoration management action of the Coorong Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth Recovery Project aims to divert additional water from the Upper South East area into the Coorong South Lagoon, using a combination of natural watercourses, new and upgraded constructed floodways and drains, to reduce salinity in the lagoon.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The existing South East drainage system already delivers on average 30 gigalitres per year to the Coorong at Salt Creek. The further project will provide an additional 26 gigalitres per year on average.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In addition to providing additional water to freshen the Coorong when needed, the system also includes structures so that water can be diverted away from the Coorong, or retained, to make sure too much fresh water does not enter the Coorong and lower salinity below the point that support local species.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Dissenting Report (former) Senator Madigan</inline> <inline font-style="italic">—</inline> <inline font-style="italic">Recommendations</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. The Commonwealth Water Act 2007 must be amended to indisputably give equal balance to the triple bottom line i.e. social, economic and environmental values.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 25.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. The <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline> must be amended to remove reference to the 450GL and links to the Sustainable Diversion Adjustment mechanism. The $1.77 billion must be redirected to meet other objectives arising from the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Not agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Efficiency measures are an agreed component of the SDL adjustment mechanism as requested by all Basin governments to improve the socio-economic and environmental outcomes associated with the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3. We must review the MDBA's Regulatory Impact Statement (2012) to account for omissions and inclusion of relevant information evident in the implementation phase of the Murray Darling Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Updated information on the impacts of the Basin Plan implementation is being collected and reported on an ongoing basis, including through the Basin Plan Annual Report.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4. We must amend/extend current timeframes and project eligibility for the Sustainable Diversion Limits (SDL) adjustment mechanism.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5. We must have an allowance within the scope of 650GL of SDL projects to enable adaptive management and the development of further project options to deliver environmental outcomes that may not be fully explored or developed prior to the June 2016 deadline.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 20.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">6. The Murray Darling Basin Plan's focus on flow objectives to the Lower Lakes must be reviewed to avoid massive third party impacts (social, economic and environment) on Basin communities. The Plan must incorporate the physical realities of the Murray, Edward and Wakool and Goulburn river systems and acknowledge that the Murray Darling Basin Authority's proposed flow targets to the SA border are unachievable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The baseline environmental targets and outcomes in the Basin Plan and the Basin‑wide Environmental Watering Strategy take into account the existing physical constraints of the system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan also recognises the potential for flow constraints to be relaxed to allow enhanced environmental outcomes as set out in Schedule 5 of the Basin Plan</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7. Federal, New South Wales, Victoria and South Australian governments should be encouraged to investigate the development of localised projects in South Australia to deliver environmental benefits for the Coorong, Lower Lakes and Murray Mouth. Federal investments should be on the condition that SDL credits generated help offset the shared downstream targets for the Murray (971GL.) (The Coorong Connector should not be considered unless part of a broader package of measures.)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 14.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">8. We need an independent investigation of the accountability, performance and independence of the MDBA with emphasis on the basis and validity of its conclusions and recommendations to government in the development and implementation of the Murray Darling Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9. The MDBA must be instructed and made accountable to facilitate open access and transparency on all of its models and assumptions used in decisions associated with the Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As a Commonwealth agency all Murray–Darling Basin Authority activities are subject to full disclosure and external scrutiny, including by the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Authority used a variety of tools and models when developing the Basin Plan. Technical reports describing how these tools and models were developed and used to inform aspects of the Basin Plan have been made publicly available.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Authority also uses hydrological models developed by the states for rivers other than the Murray. These models have been developed over recent decades and are calibrated to large sets of observed and historical data (such as flows, river operator behaviour and irrigation trends). In developing their models, Basin state governments have engaged extensively with community and industry groups ensuring key stakeholders are familiar with state models and their underpinning assumptions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In addition, the Productivity Commission will inquire into the effectiveness of the implementation of the Basin Plan in 2018.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10. The MDBA's roles, responsibilities and future functions must be reviewed and restructured to incorporate regional decisions in all aspects of the Basin Plan—social, economic, environment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Basin Plan is delivered in part through accredited state water resource plans which cover all regions of the Basin. At present there are 36 such plans, and the Basin state governments are expected to adapt those plans to suit local conditions provided there is overall consistency with Basin Plan settings.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11. The Federal Government must cease acquisition of further productive water (except for strategic benefits which is agreed to by relevant parties) until there has been a full analysis of social and economic impacts, an evaluation of environmental benefits achieved with water already acquired and it is evident there will be no adverse third party impacts on irrigation and private property.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 21.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12. Federal and state governments must be completely transparent and ensure full consultation with affected parties and stakeholders on all Murray Darling Basin Plan implementation decisions. This includes the Sustainable Diversion Limits adjustment mechanism, the Constraints Management Strategy and any proposed river or storage dam operational changes to ensure decisions do not undermine the reliability of irrigation supplies or property rights of private landholders or cause detrimental environmental impacts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendations 7 and 8.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13. The Constraints business cases must provide a realistic, compelling case, developed in full consultation with affected stakeholders, and establish that proposed measures will be achievable and will deliver the expected outcomes. The cases must provide a positive case for investment before any decisions to proceed are made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 7.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14. Impacts on all upper tributary catchments must be acknowledged and investigated so that the focus is not only on the main stems of the Murray, Goulburn and Murrumbidgee rivers when delivering environmental flows.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In seeking smarter ways to operate rivers the focus is necessarily on the reaches downstream of major storages, as there is little opportunity to manage flows in unregulated reaches.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15. Government agencies must clearly establish timing, frequency, duration and extent of proposed environmental flows in order for stakeholders to make informed decisions in the development of the business cases on constraints.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Noted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendations 7 and 8.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16. The MDBA must address how the Constraints Management Strategy can proceed considering Upper Goulburn Catchment landowners have refused to negotiate easements to mitigate flooding impacts, and the Federal and State governments have stated they will not forcibly acquire easements or intentionally flood private property without consent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 7.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17. Federal and state governments must avoid manipulation of water markets or water use through references to high value crops or preferred industries.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Agreed in principle.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government does not determine what a 'high value use' is. The Government continues to monitor the market and be receptive to feedback from market participants. Any evidence of manipulating the water market should be brought to the attention of regulatory authorities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">18. I strongly object to overseas entities being permitted to trade in our water.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Noted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">19. Monitoring and evaluation of the Basin plan and environmental flows must include both negative and positive impacts to enable full evaluations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">See response to majority report recommendation 26.</para></quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>83</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Membership</title>
          <page.no>83</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>00AOP</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received letters requesting changes in the membership of committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees in accordance with the document circulated in the chamber.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">COMMITTEE MEMBERSHIP</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">List circulated on 16 February 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications References Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute members:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Smith to replace Senator Reynolds for the committee's inquiry into Aboriginal rock art of the Burrup Peninsula</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Hume to replace Senator Duniam for the committee's inquiry into the closures of electricity generators</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating members: Senators Duniam and Reynolds</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Government Procurement—Joint Select Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Discharged—Senator Bernardi</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—Senator Bushby</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute members:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Dodson to replace Senator Watt for the committee's inquiry into the provisions of the Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senator Siewert to replace Senator McKim for the committee's inquiry into the provisions of the Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating members: Senators McKim and Watt</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs References Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute member: Senator Ludlam to replace Senator McKim for the committee's inquiry into the Bell Group litigation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating member: Senator McKim</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>84</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>84</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r5821">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>84</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>84</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">NATIVE TITLE AMENDMENT (INDIGENOUS LAND USE AGREEMENTS) BILL 2017</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Native Title Amendment (Indigenous Land Use Agreements) Bill 2017 responds to the recent Full Federal Court decision in McGlade v Native Title Registrar. It provides certainty to indigenous and non-indigenous parties alike where they have voluntarily made, or are proposing to make, agreements about the use of land and waters subject to native title.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The effect of the McGlade decision was to overrule an earlier decision of a single judge of the Federal Court in 2010 in a case called Bygrave (No. 2).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Bygrave settled the law in relation to the necessary requisites for an Indigenous Land Use Agreement to be registered.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Bygrave held that it was not necessary for all members of the registered native title claimant (who are the authorised representatives of the broader native title claim group) to be a party to the ILUA.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rather, Bygrave held that what was important was that the broader native title claim group, being those claiming to hold native title in the area, had authorised the making of the proposed agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The McGlade decision has overturned this position, requiring that all members of the registered native title claimant be a party to the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a very significant development in relation to not only Indigenous land use agreements that have already been registered in reliance on the rule in Bygrave, but in relation to all Indigenous Land Use Agreements seeking registration.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is because the effect of the decision in McGlade is that the will of the broader native title claim group may be frustrated because not all members of the registered native title claimant have signed the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This may happen for any number of reasons including that the member of the registered native title claimant does not agree with the decision that the broader claim group has made, or has passed away or became incapacitated before being able to sign the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments seek to return to the status quo ante as established in <inline font-style="italic">Bygrave (No. 2) </inline>for agreements that have already been registered or were awaiting registration at the time of the McGlade decision, and which were duly authorised by the broader native title group and which followed the law as it was at the time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These particular amendments will operate retrospectively to counter the potential impact of the McGlade decision.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments will give primacy to the decision of the broader native title claim group for agreements in the future, as it is the group who claim to hold native title within the area of the agreement who should ultimately have the right to decide whether an agreement should be accepted or not. Greater reliance on collective decision-making reflects the communal nature of native title rights under the Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments provide that the native title claim group may nominate one or more persons of the registered native title claimant to be a party to the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The group may also specify a process for determining who will be a party to the agreement. This will guard against the possibility that the person or persons they nominate become unable or unwilling to be a party to the agreement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If the claim group does not specify a process for determining who is to the a party to the agreement it will be sufficient if a majority of the registered native title claimant are parties. This position is consistent with recommendations made by the Australian Law Reform Commission in its Connection to Country report that the registered native title claimant should be able to act by majority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To give maximum flexibility to native title claim groups when making these key decisions, the bill also implements recommendations 10-1 and 10-2 of the ALRC report, by allowing the group to follow a traditional decision making process if one is available or to agree on another decision making method. Currently a group must use a traditional decision making process if one exists.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Taken together, the amendments in this bill will provide certainty to indigenous and non-indigenous parties who have already registered their agreements or whose registration is pending. These measures will protect the benefits and interests that have been granted on both sides, and provide certainty for parties who have commenced or are proposing negotiations for an indigenous land use agreement. The amendments return the control over the realisation of such agreements for indigenous parties to the hands of the wider group of native title holders, who can ensure that their will is carried out.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>85</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Joint Select Committee on Government Procurement</title>
          <page.no>85</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>85</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>85</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>85</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1054">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>85</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on my private senator's bill, the Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017. The purpose of this bill is to amend the Criminal Code Act 1995 to increase security in all public places covered under the jurisdiction of the Commonwealth and to promote civil harmony and assimilation in a climate of increasing public safety issues. This private senator's bill will make it an offence to wear full-face coverings in a public place under Commonwealth jurisdiction as well as to force another person or a child to wear a full-face covering unless otherwise authorised or excused by the law.</para>
<para>Today an editorial in a local Tasmanian paper has criticised me for introducing this legislation, under the heading of 'Islam fears misguided'. The editorial continues:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Though it is hard to imagine that the burka is a common sight on the streets of her home town of Burnie, it is clear from a series of recent public pronouncements that Senator Jacqui Lambie takes issue with aspects of Islamic culture. From an unfortunately shouty appearance denouncing “sharia law” on the ABC’s <inline font-style="italic">Q&A</inline> on Monday night, to her private member’s bill calling for a burqa ban, it is a curious preoccupation for a Senator from the nation’s least multicultural state.</para></quote>
<para>The article continues in a highbrow, academic, condescending tone, implying that I do not understand that Australia's greatness has come because successive waves of migrants have made Australia home and some have taken the time to adapt. According to the article:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… our nation is a beacon to the world of a successful and harmonious multicultural society based on the Australian principles of equality, mateship and a fair go. It is a model we should be proud of and we should work hard to defend and to spread. We have enough real problems here without dreaming up more.</para></quote>
<para>I would like to reflect for a moment on that last point—'We have enough real problems here without dreaming up more.' It is obvious that the author of those words has not acknowledged the work that I have carried out in the areas of energy security, health, higher education, the Bass Strait freight cost, unemployment, protecting pensioner payments and pay for our Australian Federal Police and Defence personnel. They do not think that the threat to our national security from organised crime and/or terrorism is a real problem. It is clear the author of this editorial believes I am just dreaming up this almost unprecedented threat which exists to public safety in Australia in 2017.</para>
<para>This news article is a sly personal attack because it deliberately ignores the facts—namely that our defence forces are today fighting in the Middle East because war has been declared on Australia by a brutal group of Middle Eastern men who want to impose their culture on us and our allies. Today the official government warning, set at the third highest level out of five, is that those Middle Eastern men will try to bring their war to Australian soil by any means and will probably attempt to carry out a deadly attack somewhere in our country in the next 24 hours. The author of this editorial, who accuses me of dreaming up this threat to national security, obviously denies the existence of war in the Middle East and our official domestic terror threat level of 'probable'. I doubt they have travelled much out of the politically correct cultural bubble of Hobart. They certainly have not visited this parliament, where we spend nearly half our working lives.</para>
<para>When I first came to this place almost three years ago, there were no police officers with machine guns on guard outside. There were no big security fences scarring the beautiful lawns above us which crown this grand building. No longer will Australian children be able to play on and roll down the lawns above this chamber because of the threat to the physical safety of every person in this building from a group of men from the Middle East who want to forcibly replace our democratic Constitution and system of government with their own law, justice and government taken straight out of the seventh century.</para>
<para>I take the current threat to public safety seriously, which is more than I can say for some members of the media who think it is all a dream. Putting aside the lives lost already during terror related attacks on our soil, how can this threat to public safety be a dream when the head of ASIO admits that Australia's lead spy agency is right now watching 190 people on our soil who are carrying out activities which help terrorists? How can people not be alarmed when the spy agency chief during Senate estimates hearings refused to even disclose the cost of their covert surveillance?</para>
<para>How can people feel confident that our security agencies, under the direction of this government, are doing everything possible to keep the public safe when ASIO refuses to detail the number of terrorist supporters being watched in each state? Are these terrorists being paid welfare? Are they allowed to vote? Are they allowed access to vehicles or firearms? Why are they being only watched? Why have they not been electronically tagged? Why have they not been charged with treason and put in jail if found guilty?</para>
<para>When it comes to national security this government is not being truthful with the Australian people. Yes, Liberal members can point to an official alert system that says that a terrorist attack today is probable. Yet we still have the editor of a Tassie paper who thinks that I am dreaming up a national security problem that really does not exist.</para>
<para>During the Christmas break I was fortunate enough to travel to South-East Asia with my son for a family holiday. I would like to congratulate the Singaporean government on their public education campaign regarding the threat to their national security. They do not hide the truth from their people. The government runs ads on big TV screens in the middle of the city which show shops being blown up, with this blunt but very effective message. It is not a matter of if but when a terrorist attack will happen. The Singaporean government does not mince its words. It is not scared of the politically correct brigade, who bury their heads in the sand. In their ads the Singaporean government also instructs their people how to respond to that terrorist attack, which is going to happen, in order to lessen the loss of life and increase personal security.</para>
<para>We need that level of honesty here in Australia. In future, when the next attack occurs in Australia, we will pay with the unnecessary loss of innocent lives because of our government's, opposition's and, sad to say, mainstream media's current complacency in regard to the terrorist threat. It is no exaggeration or dream to say that in Australia the threat from organised crime and terrorism is real. Members of our military are overseas helping to fight a war that has been declared on Australia and our democratic allies by organised extremists because of who we are and our love for democracy. Gone are the easy days of the past, when we knew and trusted our neighbours and left our back doors unlocked. Those days are over. In this time of heightened security concerns, the safety and feelings of safety of members of the Australian public and a guarantee of open communication between citizens must be paramount.</para>
<para>There is a clear national security need to bring in a nationwide ban on all identity-concealing garments unless the wearer has a reasonable and lawful excuse to wear those garments. While some small groups of people may make an argument that their right to express their religious feelings or views by wearing identity-concealing garments is being limited, the security and safety of the community must always come first. Moreover, the community must feel safe. Full-face coverings such as helmets, masks, balaclavas and other facial coverings worn in public without good reason often cause unnecessary fear among the general public. Therefore security and safety will be enhanced with the introduction of this bill. I remind people who argue that this bill impacts on the religious freedoms of some groups of people living in Australia that linking restrictions on facial coverings to the national terrorism threat level is a reasonable and balanced approach to maintaining and enhancing public security, especially at a time when our security agencies are certain that further deadly public attacks by extremists and enemies of Australia will happen. Therefore, the general public's right to feel safe in public places in a secular, democratic society in a time of extreme threat from terrorism must always outweigh the right to expression of religious freedom.</para>
<para>Australians are not the only people who have expressed concerns and feel unsafe when citizens wear full-face coverings in public without good reason. As a secular state, France has already banned face coverings in public spaces, including masks, helmets, balaclavas, burqas and niqabs. In France the law defines public space to include streets, museums, shops, public transportation, parks, banks and even during the course of employment within the public sector.</para>
<para>According to Parliamentary Library research Belgium and Turkey have also successfully implemented similar laws. Even a number of Muslim countries have banned the burqa, as it were, recognising the security risk it poses. Egypt, Chad, Tunisia, Morocco, Cameroon and Niger have bans on burqas and Senegal is currently considering whether to impose one. I do not think that those countries are being called anti-Islamic.</para>
<para>My private senator's bill links the prohibition of full-face coverings to the national terrorism threat level, to be activated when the terrorism threat level reaches 'probable'. By doing this, the public can feel at ease knowing the government is doing everything it can to protect its citizens in the face of the growing threat of terrorism. Full-face coverings conceal the identity of the wearer, disrupting the authorities' ability to track down a perpetrator in the event of a crime. Prohibiting the use of full-face coverings also acts as a deterrent to those who contemplate committing a crime. This prohibition promotes public safety by making it easier to identify everyone.</para>
<para>This legislation will enable all Australians who want to go peacefully about their business to feel safe in public spaces. It does so by enacting commonsense security provisions. I emphasise that the primary purpose of this bill is public safety. When people have the intention of committing a crime, in many cases they attempt to conceal their identity so they have the best chance of evading the law. While this bill takes into account exceptions for full-face coverings in the genuine pursuit of entertainment, work and artistic purposes, the right of the Australian public to be safer and feel safer, when the official terrorism threat is at the third highest level or 'probable', must be the primary consideration of the government.</para>
<para>One Nation members have indicated they want to amend my legislation so that it is not linked to the national terrorism threat level. I think that would be a mistake. As the bill stands now, a reasonable Australian could not find any reason to oppose it. Liberal, National, Labor and even the Greens senators will find it very hard to vote against this legislation because it reflects the human rights balancing act that must always occur in a democracy between public security and personal freedoms. The One Nation amendment does not recognise that politics is the art of the possible and that, as it is written, it stands a good chance of passing this place if members are allowed to vote according to their conscience. The parliamentary record shows that I am one of the few independent crossbench senators to have their private member's bills passed in this Senate. And it is only because the previous Liberal government chose to deny the will of the Senate that our Australian Defence Force pays are not linked to politician pay rises or to CPI—whichever is higher.</para>
<para>So I ask for One Nation's support of my bill in the second reading should the government, the opposition or the Greens decide to put this legislation to a vote. This is a point that I would like to make for the average Australian who may not be au fait with Senate proceedings: the government ultimately has control over the timing of a Senate vote on this legislation. If government members choose, they can delay any vote on this legislation almost indefinitely. This would save themselves the potential embarrassment of many National Party and Liberal Party members voting for my legislation and against orders that they have received from the PM's office. I understand it is their right to put their amendments in the committee stages, but I genuinely believe they will not receive the broad cross-party support that is required to make this legislation law.</para>
<para>Returning to the issue of One Nation's proposed amendments, the bottom line is: chances of a successful passage of this bill is greater in this Senate without One Nation's amendment.</para>
<para>Following my appearance on ABC's <inline font-style="italic">Q&A </inline>many people have contacted me and shared their concerns about sharia law, full-face coverings and the level of threat to our national security. I had one particularly moving encounter with a person in this parliament who I will not identify. It will be up to them to go public or not about their fears and concerns. They described the plight of hundreds and perhaps thousands of Muslim women living in this country who are oppressed and fearful. In lives full of abuse and control by men, they are told what to wear and how to dress in public. They cannot speak out. They are voiceless. However, I have been told by this person who came to visit me—a person who I trust and respect very much—that these Muslim women have been emboldened and given hope by my public comments and the provisions within this bill.</para>
<para>Before I close, I will briefly return to the editorial which condescendingly suggested that I focus my energies on some of the real problems that my constituents face. Public safety and security is a real problem for the people of Tasmania. Residents of Burnie, Devonport and Launceston, et cetera, are smart enough to know that passing this legislation is not a cure in itself for the ills that face us. It is a small part of a larger solution. However, they know that the successful passage of this bill will send a powerful message to our enemies and other extreme radicals who thrive on public anarchy and fear. Remember, this legislation targets right-wing thugs. We all know that, apart from the Islamic radicals, there is a growing group of people who conceal their identities with handkerchiefs and dark glasses and who, during wild and violent public rallies, openly profess their hate for black and Jewish people. Those cowards will also face fines of $36,000. This legislation gives our police another valuable legislative tool to keep the law and order on our streets in Australia.</para>
<para>I seek the support of all members for the successful passage of this bill through the Australian Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on Senator Lambie's bill, the Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017. Can I say, Senator Lambie, I may not agree with all of what you say but I absolutely respect your right, as a member of this parliament, to put forward the views that you are putting forward. I know that they are views that are shared by people in the Australian community.</para>
<para>As many of my colleagues know, I have spent many, many years involved in a whole range of different community activities and, most especially, across the diversity that is, today, contemporary and mainstream Australian society. Therefore, I have had the opportunity to speak with and to meet with, and to have opportunity to discuss this and other issues, many people in different communities, including many women in the Muslim communities. So I wanted to share some of those thoughts as part of this discussion and as part of the debate about this bill.</para>
<para>As a Liberal government we believe in the inalienable rights and freedoms of all people, free of interference by government in our daily lives. And, of course, this means that all Australians should be free to choose their religion. They should be free to practice their religion and beliefs without intimidation and without interference so long as—and I underline this—those practices are within the framework of Australian law. And that includes freedom of people to express their religion through their choice of clothing. It really, basically, comes down to not telling people what they should or should not wear.</para>
<para>However, Senator Lambie, I believe that there always is an appropriate balance between freedom and security. There will be situations and locations where safety and security dictate that individuals must be identifiable. For example, people should be identifiable in courtrooms, to police officers investigating crimes or incidents, and when entering buildings such as federal offices or other places that are designated by law as requiring people, for identification purposes, to reveal their face to have them identified.</para>
<para>The need for identification is not an issue about religion; it is an agnostic issue. It could be someone wearing a motorcycle helmet, a woman wearing a face covering—a burqa or other face covering—or any other person. As you have said, Senator Lambie, it could be someone wearing a balaclava or some other face covering. It is a useful and important discussion to have, but it is also important to find the appropriate balance between freedom and security. This government's first priority is to keep the public safe. We are committed to ensuring that our agencies have the powers that they need, but it comes down to striking that appropriate balance.</para>
<para>Senator Lambie, your bill would apply in public places in the territories and in Commonwealth places when the threat level under the National Terrorism Threat Advisory System is higher than 'possible'. I remind the Senate that a higher threat level of 'probable' has been in place in Australia since September 2014. The bill also contains exemptions for full-face coverings where it is reasonable and necessary for the wearer's occupation; for participation in lawful entertainment, recreation or sport; for a genuine artistic purpose; or for safety equipment, and it allows for those exemptions to be prescribed by regulation. The definition of a full-face covering is an item that substantially covers the front of a person's head from the top of the forehead to the base of the chin in a way that conceals the identity of the person, whether or not a part of a person's face can still be seen.</para>
<para>As I said to Senator Lambie through you, Mr Acting Deputy President, I have had the opportunity to spend a lot of time in many different situations in different communities, and I have to say that in my 35 years of involvement I have rarely seen women wearing a burqa. I have spent time in places where one would normally see them worn. I have, on the odd occasion, seen women wearing a niqab, but more often than not I have seen them wear a hijab, where their face is fully seen; a chador, where, whilst the head is more covered, you can definitely still see the face; or a dupatta, which is mostly worn by women of South-East Asian background. I have taken the opportunity to speak with quite a number of women, and I have actually asked them the direct question of whether they feel under an obligation: does the Koran obligate women to have their face covered? The most common answer I get is, 'No, it doesn't.' Women who have told me that they do wear mostly the hijab have told me that they do so because it is their choice. It is what they feel that they would like to wear as a demonstration of their beliefs.</para>
<para>I grew up in a Catholic system. I was taught by nuns at school. Nuns wear habits, but they normally wear a habit where you can see their face. People wear different head coverings. For example, Sikhs wear turbans. Again, in instances of identification, those are not going to be an issue, because the face is not fully covered. I think that in this issue it is important that we look at it from that identification perspective and that we look at identification right across the spectrum—and Senator Lambie, as you correctly say, at people with balaclavas and other face coverings. But in the end it really does become a question of finding the appropriate balance.</para>
<para>We are one of the most culturally diverse yet socially cohesive nations on earth, and our Australia of today is founded on a whole set of principles. It is about freedom; it is about opportunity; it is about tolerance; it is about understanding, but it is also about respecting the law. Senator Lambie, I appreciate the sentiment of this bill, because—and I now speak from a personal perspective—this is confronting at times, and it has been confronting for many Australians. Many Australians have told me that they find it confronting when faced with somebody whose face is totally covered. But I think that in Australia—and certainly in my experience over a long period of time and in places where I have walked like Lakemba, Auburn and other places—I have very rarely seen women whose faces are fully covered. I have definitely seen them with hijabs and chadors, but I have not seen too many in the full burqa or the full niqab. Having said that, Senator Lambie, I think it is very important that we find the appropriate balance in this issue. When it does come to a question of identification, it should not be about religion; it should be an agnostic approach, and it should be one that applies to forms of covering that go to the very important point of identification.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator MOORE</name>
    <name.id>00AOQ</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the restricted time we have this afternoon, there are a number of people who are willing to make some contributions, so it will only be a chance to taste the debate, Senator Lambie, as you expect. But I think it is important that we do have the discussion, and our rules do not very often allow us the chance to actually talk about issues that are important to people personally and how we move it forward.</para>
<para>In terms of the issues around security and in particular this area of face covering, this is not a new debate. In this place, we have for a while been trying to work through, as Senator Fierravanti-Wells has put on record, the important area of how we balance a genuine, agreed position around our whole country that we are in a time of security threat whilst not wishing to exaggerate the process and cause undue fear. I think what we have been trying to do for a period of time is engage with the community so that we all take ownership of exactly how we feel about our society, what our values are and what we want to do together to ensure that we do reach that point of balance, that we know that we have to have responsibilities as citizens, or as visitors in this country, to live by the laws that are in place and to understand that internationally there has been increased violence, increased threat and also a call for division. That is not what we want to see happen in this community. We want to ensure that, while we are working together to effectively contemplate what the issues of security are, we maintain at every point a clear desire and a process that engages rather than rejects or divides the community.</para>
<para>On the issue of veiling, one of the other real problems we have is that there is a great lack of understanding and throwing around of terminology about people who cover their heads, their faces—their mode of dress. Whenever this discussion happens, it inevitably comes down to the issue of Muslim women. We have all read your bill, Senator Lambie, so we are not labelling; we are just saying that the bill does talk about all forms of face covering, but I guarantee that any media coverage and any commentary in the community will not mention balaclavas. They will not mention headgear of any kind. What they will talk about, hopefully correctly, is the kind of veiling that various Muslim women wear. The stats prove that in Australia not many women use the full cover, not many at all. In fact, it is still something that causes people to be concerned and look because it is so rare. Most Muslim women who choose to wear covering in this country tend to wear scarves to cover their hair, not their face. Your bill relates to things that stop facial recognition, and I think that is something that we need to understand and also put into the balance.</para>
<para>There are also limits in the bill around moments of severe security alarm, so it is not just all the time. So your bill does look at limiting the restriction. However, in terms of the current level of debate in Australia, the current level of understanding in Australia and indeed the current level of terror threat, I believe this bill does not build engagement or communication; it actually creates more division and fear. If I had more time I would go into my concerns about the way, already, there is a lack of understanding, moving beyond that lack of understanding into actual attack and vilification of a number of people that follow the Muslim religion, and particularly women. They are the most obvious in terms of being public supporters of Muslims, of Islam. The evidence is so clear that already there are attacks, personal insults and deep offence being caused to women who are veiled.</para>
<para>What we need to do is take the information that is available and engage in this community discussion. I believe moving forward with this type of legislation is premature. I do not agree with it, Senator Lambie—and we talk sometimes about these things. I do not agree with it, but I think the issues you raise need to be openly discussed, and having the discussion should not automatically cause yelling and upset and people being labelled. The best thing to do is to put it out clearly, to work through the issues and to see whether we can come to an agreement.</para>
<para>We have clear evidence in New South Wales and in my own state of Queensland that, where issues of identification have been brought into place, mechanisms have been put in place to ensure that that occurs. That is the positive side of how we can work together. I do not believe the bill actually gets there. I think it raises issues, and when we have a wider opportunity to talk about it more people can get involved and go into a process where we can really work through the intent, how we can do it and how we can do it without further division, because I do not want to divide society to try to pretend to make it more safe.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me start by describing what the Criminal Code Amendment (Prohibition of Full Face Coverings in Public Places) Bill 2017 does. It prohibits anything that substantially covers the front of a person's head from the top of the forehead to the base of the chin in a way that conceals the identity of the person, whether or not part of the person's face can still be seen.</para>
<para>Under this bill, Superman would be banned, Spiderman would be banned, Batman would be banned, the Phantom would be banned, Wonderwoman would be okay—actually, Superman might be okay, but Clark Kent could be in trouble because his glasses conceal his identity. The fact is that this ban would only apply when the threat of terrorism is probable, expected or certain. But is that not when we want our superheroes to be able to help us? Do we not want them to be ready and willing to help when the threat is probable, expected or certain? I think it is really important that we understand how this bill would impact on the ability of our costumed superheroes to respond to terror threats, because those costumed superheroes only exist in the realm of fantasy fiction—and that is where this bill belongs. That is before we even get to where the bill would operate.</para>
<para>Could Spiderman go into a Centrelink office to fix up his youth allowance? Could Batman go into a Medicare office to arrange a rebate? We do not know the answer to these questions, because the answer probably depends on whether the Centrelink office is owned by the Commonwealth or leased. Ultimately we do not know, because the question of what a Commonwealth Place is has never really been tested. On the other hand, the Phantom could go into places that are not Commonwealth places, like a housing office or a primary school or a magistrates court, providing he is not in the Northern Territory or the ACT, because of course they are Commonwealth places.</para>
<para>The truth is that Senator Lambie must have been watching too many Hollywood movies, because with this bill she is responding to the 'Phantom Menace'. This bill is aimed squarely at Muslim women who wear the burqa or the niqab. As Senator Lambie pointed out, France did legislate to ban facial coverings in 2010. They did it for the reasons that Senator Lambie nominates. But, in the first year the ban came into effect, who were the only people charged? They were Muslim women wearing a burqa or niqab—20 of them in that year. Is France safer because of it? I do not think so.</para>
<para>It is very difficult to see the correlation here between the intent of the legislation and its impact. We know that there is no credible security advice to the effect that there are large groups of Muslim women out there in the suburbs of Sydney and Melbourne hiding bombs in their burqas just waiting to cause carnage. There is nothing that would indicate that there is a serious security threat. Of course, that might seem trivial now that we live in this Trump-fuelled post-truth world of alternative facts and fake news, but I do scratch my head about it. Even if there were women who were wearing burqas and who presented a security threat, how is it that banning the burqa would keep us safe?</para>
<para>I just do not get it. The whole thing is just so silly.</para>
<para>I do understand that Senator Lambie talks about the impression that Australians feel unsafe when they see people wearing full face coverings in public. Yes, for many people, it is confronting. But I will tell you who does not feel safe right now. You do not feel safe right now if you are a Muslim living in this country, catching public transport, walking down the street and minding your own business if you are being yelled at, vilified and targeted now by some of the most hateful and divisive rhetoric that this country has seen in many decades.</para>
<para>Obviously, it comes on the back of the election of President Trump, who has shown himself to be somebody who is prepared to use hate to divide people. We have the likes of One Nation in this place. We have those whackos Reclaim Australia and the United Patriots Front. All of them enabled and encouraged by a media—and let's name it here: the Murdoch media—who today, for example, launched an extraordinary attack on Yassmin Abdel-Magied. She is a young Muslim woman who is 25 years old and who engaged in a trip, funded through DFAT, to try and encourage people in ostensibly Muslim countries to come and visit Australia and to engage in trade and tourism with our country. And yet, we saw this attack on this young Muslim woman, really based on the fact that she is a Muslim. Of course, you have the whole sewer that the online world has become where this hatred and vilification spreads.</para>
<para>If you speak to Muslim people right now in Australia, you actually get a sense of how they are feeling. In this place, I told the story of Sara, a woman who was caught up in Donald Trump's immigration ban. I told the story of another young woman who was a health professional, who, when she revealed to her patient that she was a Muslim, was basically told, in front of her son, that she would not be welcome in his home if she was wearing the hijab. I have spoken to women who say they do not want to put down their religion on the census or, indeed, their name on the census because they fear what might happen to them. I have spoken to families who say, 'We don't want to buy a house and put down roots in this country because we are worried about where things are going.' That is how people are feeling right now, and it is this sort of legislation that contributes to that. It contributes to that feeling of not being welcome in this country.</para>
<para>Let me say, for me, this is personal. This is very personal. When I see an attack on people of the Islamic faith, I see the same sort of attacks that were launched on my family when the Italians first came: 'They smell. They dress in black. They treat their women terribly. Their food is weird. They speak a strange language. They have these big families. They bludge off the state. They are all criminals and part of the mafia.' We are seeing the same sorts of things repeated now, but all we are seeing is a different group being targeted.</para>
<para>I just say to Senator Lambie and I say to other voices in this place: these are people; open up your heart and your mind; accept an invitation to visit a mosque.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Lambie</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What if we can't identify people on the street?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Don't bury your head in the sand. Don't choose ignorance and fear. That is the obvious path. Choose one that promotes peace; one that promotes inclusion and diversity. Get to know a Muslim person. Speak to them. They will welcome you into their home. You will see that, like you, they share a common humanity and have the same dreams and hopes for their families: to put a roof over their head, to feed their children, to give them an education and to contribute to this country.</para>
<para>Don't base legislation in this place on tired stereotypes that are based on fear and prejudice. I get that, right now, Muslims are an easy target. People in this place are falling over themselves to see who can be the most vicious and the most hateful towards our fellow Australians. But that is the low road. Take the high road. This bill is not about protecting people or keeping people safe. This is about targeting people. This bill targets women.</para>
<para>Let me finish with the words of a really inspiring young Muslim woman, Tasneem Chopra. She is the chair of the Australian Muslim Women's Centre for Human Rights. It is an outstanding organisation that works with, and advocates for, Muslim women on a range of casework, research, outreach and referral services. In response to this bill, she said that in their experience, the issue 'of forced faced coverings has not emerged as an issue' within the community. But she says: 'What has emerged are the countless cases of discrimination, vilification and violence experienced by women from the wider public. Further, the ongoing policing of women's choice of dress, equating personal expressions of faith with loyalty to Australia, as if being Muslim and being Australian were inalienable, remains a gross abuse of human rights, experienced as state-sanctioned violence. Any proposed curtailment of freedom of movement premised on faith-based dress codes is antithetical to the democratic freedoms this nation champions.'</para>
<para>Australia's greatest quality is the openness of our society. We are a free, open society; an inclusive society. We are a nation founded by immigrants. We are a nation that comes together to celebrate the many diverse cultures that make Australia home. This country is better because of the contribution of people from right around the world. It is what makes us the most successful multicultural nation on earth; indeed, the most successful nation on earth. So I just say again to all those people in this place who seek to use fear and division—perhaps not intentionally, but because of their own prejudices, insecurities and anxieties—open your heart and your mind, talk to somebody who might be different from you but shares the same dreams, goals and aspirations, and what you will find is that we all share a common humanity. And that is something to be celebrated.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LEYONHJELM</name>
    <name.id>111206</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Libertarians have mixed feelings about the burqa. We believe people should be allowed to make their own choices, including wearing what they want, so long as they are not harming anyone else. Occasionally, I see women wearing niqabs and burqas at the shopping centre in my home suburb of Drummoyne in Sydney, and they are not harming anybody. But unfortunately, the sight of a burqa is confronting. It is the closest thing we have to a uniform for fundamentalist Islam, an authoritarian ideology that does harm people. Apart from the obvious excesses of terrorism, there is no room in this country for a belief system that would subjugate women, oppress gays and lesbians, and punish people for saying the wrong thing. I fully understand why some people want one of the most identifiable symbols of this creed banned. But I will not be voting to ban the burqa.</para>
<para>The government already dictates far too many things: what we can do, who we can marry, and what we can say. We should be wary of all kinds of authoritarians: whether they are Islamists, the government, or even the Greens. But I have practical objections as well as ideological ones. The idea behind this bill is that a ban will improve security. I disagree. If someone wandering around the ACT, Northern Territory or an airport, which is where this bill would apply, wants to identify themselves by wearing a burqa, we should not discourage them. As politically incorrect as this no doubt sounds, I can scarcely think of anything you could do to put security on higher alert than wearing a burqa, other than carrying a neon sign with an arrow pointing at you that says 'potential terrorist'.</para>
<para>We should also not discourage or disparage anybody working at an airport security checkpoint, or a police officer who has reason to suspect criminality, for carefully screening someone wearing a burqa. It is their job to use their common-sense to keep us safe. This idea will no doubt offend the delicate sensibilities of the progressives, but it is worse than absurd to pretend Islamists are not a statistically higher security risk; it is dangerous. Anyone who is committed enough to consider terrorism, will not be inconvenienced if there is a law against burps. It's just as easy to hide a bomb under a loose gown as under a burqa. And if you are planning to blow yourself up, you will not be worried if a surveillance camera captures an image of your face before it gets blown to bits.</para>
<para>Rather than engaging fashion police across the ACT and Northern Territory, a much better long-term solution to safeguard Australia would be to make sure immigrants are compatible with our values in the first place. One vote one value, the right to a fair trial, freedom of association, freedom of speech and the separation of church and state are great and hard won doctrines of our culture. It is not racism, bigotry or even jingoism to defend them. It is about protecting the rights of individuals. It is our job.</para>
<para>I recently suggested a written citizenship test to the news.com.au website based on my belief that we should put a higher value on Australian citizenship. Some of the questions include: Should there be a law banning female circumcision—better known to the civilised amongst us as female genital mutilation? Should there be a law banning adults from homosexual acts and relationships? Should there be a law banning a wife from leaving the home against the wishes of the husband? And should there be a law banning blasphemy? Immigrants who fail a test like this are not going to fit in, and are probably better off finding a home somewhere else anyway.</para>
<para>Ultimately, it is the values immigrants bring to this country that matter more than their clothes or their customs.</para>
<para>Mr Acting Deputy President Back, I seek leave to continue my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015</title>
          <page.no>92</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1030">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>92</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LEYONHJELM</name>
    <name.id>111206</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do not want to upset anybody in this place but I have some terrible news for you: you are all going to die. And I have news that is even more tragic: I am also going to die. I cannot say when or how any of us will go. But if posting inappropriate tweets is a sin, I may be struck down by lightning any day now. This would actually be a merciful way to go. Many people are not so lucky.</para>
<para>Cancer is now the top cause of death in Australia. About one in four of us will slowly die from cancer. There are many other degenerative diseases where death is a slow and painful process, and the dying know exactly what is going on and become powerless to end their own suffering. At any moment, thousands of Australians are dying. They are the most vulnerable people in the country, and we owe them the greatest care and attention. And yet they are provided with less dignity than our pets. An animal in the same position would be put out of their misery, and we would all agree it was an act of compassion yet it could not provide consent.</para>
<para>Suicide has been legal for decades. But when we become too frail or ill to do it for ourselves, governments continue to intrude into this most fundamental personal decision. Since the last time I spoke about this, I am glad to say that there has been progress in some states. The people of Victoria and New South Wales will get a chance to debate the details of assisted suicide this year, with both parliaments drafting bills. A bill to remove the ban on assisted suicide in South Australia was only defeated by the Speaker's casting vote last year. While that was a shame, it was at least democracy in action.</para>
<para>But the people of the Northern Territory and ACT are denied the same opportunity because of the Andrews bill passed here in 1997. It is undemocratic. Why should they not have the same rights as other states? We have the power to change that. My bill would not automatically make assisted suicide legal in the territories but it would overturn the Andrews bill and allow the parliaments of the territories to come to their own conclusions, just like people in other states. Those in favour of assisted suicide will support me. But I also seek the support of those who oppose assisted suicide but believe the territories should be free to debate and amend their own laws.</para>
<para>I support assisted suicide because we should own our own lives. I believe if we are not free to end our lives, with assistance if necessary then we are not free at all. But I also support federalism, the idea that the Commonwealth government should stick to its constitutionally prescribed role and not interfere in decisions that are the prerogative of the states and territories. Sometimes we seem to forget about our own mortality.</para>
<para>The assisted suicide issue is not just about our beliefs or religious principles, it is about all of us. I am confident we will win this battle, but, if assisted suicide is not legalised, the time will come when some of us will find ourselves powerless to manage our own suffering.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am also grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate this afternoon, because it allows me to touch on an issue that has always been very important to me. I will, at the outset, note that I am not a supporter of euthanasia. I am happy to explain my reasons at another time. I will also briefly note that the issue of assisted suicide is one that does seem to be again making its way onto the political and social agenda. Of course, we had a very significant national debate around these issues in 1997. It was a passionate public debate, with strongly held views on both sides and people's moral and religious convictions were feeding into them. It was a debate that was not necessarily conducted along party lines.</para>
<para>To illustrate the point, one of the most prominent opponents of euthanasia was the member for Menzies, Mr Kevin Andrews, whose private member's bill would be overturned by the bill now before us now. One of the most passionate advocates in support of voluntary euthanasia was, of course, the Hon. Jeff Kennett, who was then the Premier of Victoria. So leading the charge at the two opposite sides of the debate were two Liberals from the state of Victoria, who were not driven by partisan politics but by their own personal, moral and, certainly in the case of Mr Andrews, deeply held religious convictions. Now, that is not too dissimilar another issue which is currently a prominent issue in our national discourse: the issue of same-sex marriage. Yet there were no calls at that time, at least so far as I can recall, for a plebiscite on the issue. That is just a point I would like to make in passing: these issues are absolutely ones that should be dealt with, at all times, by parliaments.</para>
<para>I have seen reports that the issue of euthanasia is again about to be the subject of a parliamentary debate in the state of Victoria, with the state government there planning to hold a conscience vote on the issue. While I personally hope the law is not changed in this area, I am nonetheless pleased it is being dealt with by the state parliament, using a conscience vote of its members. I think, and have always thought, that that is the most appropriate, noble and self-respecting way to address these matters.</para>
<para>Euthanasia is a sensitive and complex issue. Community members understandably have strong views about dying with dignity and with minimal pain. The underlying principle of the government's investment in health services is quality of life, and this includes during end-of-life care. Of course, we also believe that people should have access to quality palliative care and relief from pain and suffering. Likewise, I believe that where possible, they should be able to choose the extent of active medical treatment they receive. But to my mind, this bill from Senator Leyonhjelm actually raises an issue that is much broader than euthanasia and that relates to the long-held and deeply cherished principle—for me, at least—of Australian federalism.</para>
<para>I said in my first speech in the Senate almost five years ago that I was unashamedly a constitutionalist and a federalist. That is still true today. I am a great believer that our founding fathers took great time and took great care to fashion for the nation a constitution that would stand the test of time. The evidence is resoundingly clear: our constitution has lived up to and stood the test of time. I have spoken previously in this chamber of the powerful influence that James Bryce's book <inline font-style="italic">The American Commonwealth</inline> exerted on many of the delegates who attended the first of the constitutional conventions of the 1890s, which created the constitution that underpins our system of government today. Bryce's work comprehensively established the benefits that flow from a system of government the clearly divides power between a central, national government and state jurisdictions, which by definition are closer to the people and accordingly have a better capacity to appreciate and respond to the more immediate day-to-day concerns of their constituents.</para>
<para>As a proud Western Australian—and I am sure I share that with Acting Deputy President Back—I am sure we could say, and I am sure other WA residents would also say, that this is more than a constitutional theory. For Western Australians, it is part of our lived experience. There is a reason that Western Australians were initially reluctant to join the Federation in the lead up to 1 January 1901. Likewise, it is not an accident that with each attempt a federal government has made to alter our nation constitution in a fashion designed to grant increased powers to Canberra, the yes vote in Western Australia tends to be noticeably lower than in other jurisdictions.</para>
<para>However, my view is that these problems have not emerged because of the design of our federalist system, as some would suggest. Rather, these problems have arisen because of political imperatives. There is a desire by federal governments—of both political stripes, I willingly admit—to overreach and to gather more power into their own hands at the expense of the states and territories. I think that what had sometimes been forgotten in this centralist zeal is that when you take powers from the states and territories, it is actually the residents of those states or territories you disempower—not the state or territory government.</para>
<para>The state MPs and ministers still get paid. All you will end up doing is transferring their workload to the Commonwealth and, in the process, taking the decision-making process further away from the people. This is a complete perversion of the principle of subsidiarity, which was one of the foundational principles of our constitutional form of government. The core elements of this principle were outlined most eloquently by one of Australia's most respected constitutional scholars, Professor Anne Twomey, writing in the <inline font-style="italic">Federal Law Review</inline> in 2008. In that, she says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Subsidiarity provides that functions should, where practical, be vested in the lowest level of government to ensure that their exercise is as close to the people as possible and reflects community preferences and local conditions. The principle of subsidiarity places the onus on those who seek to place a function with a higher level of government to make the case for it.</para></quote>
<para>I believe that is a very sound basis for designing a constitutional system of government.</para>
<para>Unfortunately, what has happened—encouraged, as I said, entirely by both sides of our national politics—is that people have increasingly come to see the federal government not as a body which fulfils the functions delineated in section 51 of our constitution but rather as a sort of political insurance policy. In other words, when the state government fails them or does something they do not like, there is an expectation that the federal government will fix the problem or overturn the bad decision. I think that is a very dangerous expectation, and it is one that is damaging our constitutional foundations. Just because the seemingly unavoidable trend in Australian governance for many decades has been towards centralism—greater control for Canberra—does not mean it is preferable, and nor does it mean that it has to be inevitable.</para>
<para>Last year was a depressing one for Australian federalism. We had the sorry spectacle of state and territory leaders actively refusing to take back some legislative powers when they were offered by the Commonwealth. Recall just last April, when the premier offered state and territory leaders the capacity to share in income taxing powers. What did they do? Of course, with the exception of our own Colin Barnett, they ran a mile. Actually, all that was being proposed was returning some powers to the states that were theirs in the first place. It was hardly a 'radical' proposition.</para>
<para>Until 1942, state governments did levy income taxes. The wartime situation facing Australia saw the Commonwealth assume responsibility for income tax in 1942. And then, once the Second World War ended, the Commonwealth retained rather than gave back that responsibility, although there have previously been attempts to hand it back, first in 1977, when Prime Minister Malcolm Fraser proposed allowing state governments to levy an income tax surcharge or provide an income tax rebate to assist them in meeting their spending requirements. However, then New South Wales Labor Premier Neville Wran coined the phrase 'double taxation' and launched a scare campaign against the proposal. It was Wran's script that Bill Shorten and Chris Bowen were reading from in their shrill, confected outrage over the proposal just last year. Yet the integrity of their position is completely undermined by the outcome of the premiers' and chief ministers' meeting held in Adelaide on 21 and 22 November 1991. The communique to emerge from that meeting is significant. It was chaired by Labor Prime Minister Bob Hawke, and of the eight premiers and chief ministers attending that conference, six led Labor governments.</para>
<para>Let me read what the communique says. It says that all leaders 'reiterated their support for a national income tax sharing scheme based on providing states and territories with access to the personal income tax base and with a corresponding decline in financial assistance grants'. In fact, the leaders agreed on 'a figure of six per cent of the personal income tax base' as being appropriate 'without impinging on fiscal equalisation arrangements between the states'. They also agreed that the proposal was not just 'revenue neutral, but it is also economically sustainable', and that this conclusion was reached by both the Commonwealth Treasury and state Treasury officials. I know what you are thinking, Mr Acting Deputy President Back. You are probably thinking: 'How remarkable, the foresight, in 1991, and we have missed the opportunity. We missed the opportunity in April last year.'</para>
<para>Alas, this breakthrough agreement was mothballed one month later, when Paul Keating—whose infamous centralist tendencies would never permit him to grant greater autonomy to states—seized Bob Hawke's job and scuppered the deal. The proposal put to state leaders last year was actually far less 'radical' than the one agreed by a meeting of predominantly Labor leaders 26 years ago. Where is the appetite for reform amongst their modern-day successors? What the Prime Minister suggested last April would have more tightly aligned revenue raising and spending at the state level, created greater incentives for efficient spending and made state governments more accountable to their constituents. Surely any state or territory leader worth their salt should relish the prospect of greater autonomy in decision making and fiscal planning for their states.</para>
<para>The fact that today's crop of state and territory leaders—the vast bulk of them from the Labor Party, I hasten to add—failed to take opportunities to restore some balance to our constitutional arrangements is a damning indictment of their capacity for national leadership. I find, as I am sure others in this place find, their reluctance almost inexplicable—unless, of course, they do not want to be responsible for having to make these decisions for themselves and would rather take up the politically convenient option of Canberra bashing. That may well make life easier for poorly performing state and territory governments but it is not what those who framed our constitution intended, and it is not to the benefit of local communities, especially those that are a long way from Canberra, such as the ones that Senator Back and I represent in Western Australia.</para>
<para>So, if Victoria's premier, Daniel Andrews, does not think he is up to doing something that Joan Kirner thought herself more than capable of doing, he should simply admit it. If Queensland's premier does not think she can manage far less of a responsibility than Wayne Goss volunteered to take on 25 years ago, Queensland voters are entitled to know. Numerous opportunities have been offered to premiers and chief ministers to be what former Prime Minister Tony Abbott described as 'sovereign in their own sphere'. Consistently, they beg off and fail to take responsibility. It is high time Australia's state and territory leaders decided whether they wish to be leaders or simply managers. I think any bill that allows for a discussion of the virtues of federalism is one worthy of consideration. For that aspect alone, I thank Senator Leyonhjelm for bringing this issue to the attention of the Senate this afternoon.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015, and I do so in my role as an ACT senator as well as a former chief minister of the ACT. At the outset I would like to make it clear that my support for this bill relates to my concern at the level of interference the so-called Andrews bill represents as to the appropriate level of responsibility that should be afforded by territories in relation to their capacity to legislate on behalf of their constituents. I do not want to canvass any moral, philosophical, ethical or social issues regarding the rights of the terminally ill, as I believe that these issues, while of high importance, are not the focus or the intent of the bill before us today. But I should put on the record that I am supportive of the rights of those individuals to die with dignity.</para>
<para>I believe the appropriate focus of the debate on the bill is and must be the restoration of the democratic rights of the territories to pass laws in the best interests of their citizens, which were trammelled so thoroughly in 1997 when the Andrews bill, or the Euthanasia Laws Act 1997, was passed by the federal parliament. It has been 20 years now since this legislation was passed. Both territory parliaments legislate as mature jurisdictions in our nation. There are some 630,000 people who live in the ACT and the Northern Territory, and their governments are responsible for running hospitals, schools, child protection, jails—multimillion-dollar economies. Much is made of the promise of the development of the Northern Territory and the knowledge economy of the ACT. But at the moment both jurisdictions are barred from debating or legislating for the rights of the terminally ill. That is wrong, in my view, and it is timely that we revisit this, which is allowed through this legislation. We have now had the opportunity to reflect, with the benefit of 20 years hindsight, on what has changed in relation to our view of the democratic rights of the territories and, hopefully, have come to a view that it is time to remove the constraint, embedded in the Andrews bill, on the right to debate and legislate on an equal basis with the states about euthanasia.</para>
<para>In turning to my comments on the bill itself, I would like to put on the record my appreciation for Senator Leyonhjelm in bringing this bill to the Senate and for his initiative, which gives us the opportunity for our actions to match our words in support of parliamentary democracy. As for the detail of the bill, it reduces the extent of Commonwealth interference with the laws of the ACT and the Northern Territory; it contributes to competitive federalism by encouraging states and territories to legislate, refine and improve law-making; it recognises the right of the ACT and the Northern Territory to legislate on euthanasia in their respective jurisdictions; and, finally, it allows the Northern Territory parliament to revisit, at a time of its own choosing, new legislation which addresses in a similar vein the rights of the terminally ill as originally contemplated in the Rights of the Terminally Ill Act.</para>
<para>But let's be clear: this bill is about restoring democratic rights to the ACT and Northern Territory to legislate in relation to euthanasia on their terms, in their words and on behalf of their citizens, if they choose to do so. It does not compel these parliaments to legislate; it merely restores their right to do so. It is up to them to legislate, not the federal parliament on their behalf. In supporting this bill, I am merely recognising that these two jurisdictions should and must have the right to legislate on their own behalf. I would like to challenge senators who believe that this legislation should be opposed because it could lead to either or both territories legislating to allow euthanasia to stop and consider what I believe is the overriding argument in favour of supporting this bill. The people of the Northern Territory and the ACT should have the same rights as every other Australian citizen, whether they live in Alice Springs or Tuggeranong, or in Sydney, Melbourne or Adelaide. I would suggest, if you vote against this bill, that you are in effect saying to all territorians, whether they are an SES officer in Forrest or a stockman in Katherine, that they are second-class citizens in your view, that the federal parliament wants to continue to treat them in a paternalistic way, that they are not full citizens and that we know best what to let them and their elected representatives do in regard to the rights of the terminally ill.</para>
<para>As a proud Canberran and a former Chief Minister of the ACT, I will always stand up for Canberra, unlike the other senator, Senator Seselja, who this morning voted to remove jobs from Canberra. That is not something I will ever do, and I will always stand in this place to support the rights of the people of the ACT.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015. There are many grounds upon which this bill can be argued. Let me begin by discussing a point that was raised by Senator Gallagher, which is the issue of territory rights. In 1995 the Northern Territory Legislative Assembly enacted this legislation. It was the first time anywhere in the world that a legislature had authorised medically-assisted suicide. It was a very important piece of legislation. It was trailblazing. I believe that it is a fundamental right of any people to contribute to the laws which govern them. The Howard government, for reasons of their own, decided to use their constitutional power—a power that is only there, really, because of a quirk of history, that the territories were established after Federation and not before it—to run roughshod over the Northern Territory assembly's right to make laws affecting Territorians, and we reject that. It is on that basis—the right of the territories to enact their own legislation and not to have the Commonwealth use their own constitutional power to come over the top—that we believe that this bill has merit.</para>
<para>But it is not simply on that aspect of the bill that we think this legislation restoring territory rights should be passed. It is also because we in the Greens have a view that physician-assisted dying is an important concept whose time has come. We believe that, in a liberal democracy like Australia, everybody has the right to control the manner and timing of their death. We know that public support is overwhelming when it comes to the issue of the rights of the terminally ill. We know that every opinion poll conducted over the last few decades has shown roughly three-quarters of Australians support the concept of medically-assisted dying in the case of people with a terminal illness. We know that a poll by the Australia Institute in 2012 showed 71 per cent of Australians support it, and that experience has been replicated time and again. Only roughly 10 per cent of people do not support it, with a small number of people undecided.</para>
<para>Of course, public opinion is not the sole reason upon which we base our support for the rights of the terminally ill to choose the manner and timing of their death; it is also because in a liberal democracy like Australia, as I said, we believe that people have a fundamental right to control their own body. The real question that this bill asks is: 'Does someone else have the right to tell me that I need to go on living despite the fact that I have an experience of suffering that is unbearable and that I want to end?' We believe that it is the right of patients themselves to exercise that decision. As far as I am concerned, the right to have some control over the manner and timing of our own death is a classical liberal philosophy, which I know everyone in this chamber to some degree adheres to. If we were true to our commitment of the fundamental rights of individuals then we would have had physician-assisted suicide legislation a long time ago and indeed the Northern Territory legislation would still be with us today.</para>
<para>I can tell you from experience that physician-assisted suicide is happening already. The reality is that every year, hundreds of terminally ill people across the country are assisted to an early death by compassionate medical professionals. Sometimes it is done under what is called the doctrine of double effect—that is, the doctor administers a heavy dose of morphine to respond to pain when they know the consequence is that it may hasten that person's death. But that is not always the case. Sometimes, particularly in palliative care, doctors exercise discretion in conjunction with patients and so on. It is already happening. Do we want it to continue to happen in an unregulated environment? I think that presents us with some very acute dangers.</para>
<para>The good news is that this is a debate that this shifting. We saw a very substantial report prepared last year by the Victorian parliament's Legal and Social Issues Committee. The recommendations of that committee in favour of assisted dying legislation are going to be put to the Victorian parliament this year, when there will be a vote on physician assisted dying. There are some moves afoot in New South Wales as well.</para>
<para>I am very pleased that my Greens colleagues in many states and territories have been working tirelessly on the issue, as have hundreds of the enormously committed volunteers and workers in organisations right across the country. There is a real sense that this debate is moving and we are at last having in the right direction. I do believe that we will see assisted death legislation very soon. I am very optimistic about it.</para>
<para>It is not a decision I came to lightly—my own view as a GP who was forced to wrestle with this question. It is something I thought very deeply about. Death is not easy. We know, of course, that it is inevitable, but some deaths are horrible, agonising deaths. I have spoken to patients who have said to me, 'I do not want to continue,' and we know that in the last week or two of their life they experience intolerable suffering—people lying in bed drowning in a pool of secretions, basically suffocating slowly to death. We are allowed to stop feeding and we can sometimes remove the source of sustenance to people. That just makes the death more agonising and much more prolonged.</para>
<para>One of the people who contributed to this debate and really made a big impression on me was a man named Peter Short, who had oesophageal cancer. He was a very successful businessman who was in his 50s. His metastatic cancer ultimately got the better of him and he became a campaigner for physician assisted dying. He became a campaigner because he feared what those last few weeks and months of his life would look like and he wanted to have what he thought was a dignified death. It was a matter of just knowing that he had the option, because he basically had managed to secure the means to do it—of course illegally—should that occur. Just knowing he had the option made those last few months more bearable. Many people with a terminal illness will never choose to exercise the option, but they want to know that if the circumstances arise, if their suffering is intolerable, they have the option to say goodbye to their loved ones in a dignified way.</para>
<para>We, the Greens, will continue to advocate, not just to ensure the passage of this legislation—the Greens have similar legislation for restoring Territory rights—but we would like to see a national bill enacted. Hopefully, movement on this issue at the state level will continue, but, overall, what we need is an overarching national framework so that we have consistent legislation no matter what state you live in. We will continue our advocacy for it. We commend the passage of this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015. Dying is a very painful grieving process for families, for loved ones and for friends. I believe that people have the right to choose how they die. A lot of us do not have that choice—we may die in a road accident or through illness. But I have spoken to people who say that if they are ever in that situation they want the choice to say, 'My time has come. I do not have quality of life any more,' so they want to leave this world.</para>
<para>I had that experience personally with my father, when he was in hospital. Dad was quite ill—he had Parkinson's—and as he deteriorated he went through a very hard time. They thought of looking after him with palliative care. But I thought, 'No.' As happens on many occasions they give them morphine to ease the pain, but it did not in my father's case. It actually aggravated my father more. So he was in pain—more so—from the morphine he was given. This went on for a couple of weeks, so his passing was actually a blessing.</para>
<para>I have heard of other people in these circumstances. I believe that everyone has the right to a choice. I know there are people out there who believe it is so wrong for you to have a right to say when your time is up. They are not tolerant of those who feel differently about it. I have spoken openly about this to my children and said that if I were ever to be in a situation where I became brain dead, or did not have quality of life, or were on machines, or were in a situation in a nursing home or a hospital or whatever, and I did not want to be here any longer, please make the choice to end my life. This is not only for myself but also for my children. My family and my loved ones should not have to go through turning up at my bedside every day, watching me go through that suffering, because it is more painful to them.</para>
<para>We have more compassion for animals than we do for people. If an animal is in pain or is suffering, we have it put down. That is compassion, yet we do not have that same compassion when it comes to people. I ask those people who oppose what I am saying today, 'Have you ever watched the cachexic wasting of a dying loved one? Have you ever watched the downhill spiral of someone who is bedridden, wasting away, unable to toilet themselves, wash themselves, feed themselves or speak for themselves?'</para>
<para>One in two men and one in three women will get cancer by 85. Just last year an estimated 46,880 people died of cancer—26,566 men and 20,314 women. Were they given the opportunity? I do not think so.</para>
<para>There is also another case that we have here. It is known that doctors and nurses will give morphine to ease the pain. That is palliative care, but it is illegal. They are not supposed to—not really and not to the point where they know it will eventually take a life. What we are doing is putting these nurses and these doctors at risk of facing a criminal offence. Why? My belief is that when you are of sound mind you draw up a will of your possessions, where you wish them to go and what is to happen with them. What more valuable possession do you have than your own body and your own destiny? So why not, when you are of sound mind, make up a will and give the right to someone that you trust to carry out your wishes—a loved one, a friend, a family member—to make that final decision were it to ever get to that point. And then, in conjunction with two doctors, they decide, in a compassionate way, it is time be put to sleep or death—whatever you want to call it. So why are people out there opposing my rights? That is why I think that it is the right of the territories and the people there to decide their rights. I believe it should be on the national agenda as well. Everyone should have the right.</para>
<para>We have other countries and states around the world where it is legal: The Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Switzerland, Columbia, California, Oregon, Washington, Vermont and Montana. We need to look at this on compassionate grounds and give people their right. At this stage, I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HINCH</name>
    <name.id>2O4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Acting Deputy President, if I could indulge you for one minute.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You may.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HINCH</name>
    <name.id>2O4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is about the Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015. Since Senator Hanson has adjourned her speech, I am on the list—it is not here yet—but I will be adjourned behind her.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can speak now if you want.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HINCH</name>
    <name.id>2O4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much. I will only speak for about five minutes. Twenty-five years ago, I sat alongside my mother's bed and watched her die. She was under palliative care. If she had been a dog and an RSPCA inspector had walked into that room, I would have been arrested and charged with cruelty to animals. She weighed about 30 kilograms, if not 25 kilograms, and looked like a Biafran refugee. I think this law has to be amended. You do have the right. The movie said, 'Whose life is it anyway', and that is the exact way that I feel about this.</para>
<para>The original successful attempt by the Liberal government to meddle in the affairs of the Northern Territory government, the ACT and Norfolk Island—that bill was introduced by Kevin Andrews, but it had Prime Minister Howard's grubby fingerprints all over it. It was done to stop Philip Nitschke, who has campaigned for decades over this and I have supported him for about 30 years. You do have the right to die. Some people get offended by the term 'voluntary euthanasia'. They prefer to say 'dying with dignity', and I can see the merit in that.</para>
<para>Last year, I attended the Victorian government's upper house investigation and committee hearing into dying with dignity. Their legislation means they could be the first state in Australia to make it legal. You have Dr Rodney Syme, in Melbourne, who challenged the police and the government to charge him. He has admitted that he has helped people die. He has been honest and he has been brave. But of course you have doctors—I say, 'Doctors do it all the time', but they do not actually. It is the doctors who tell the nurses what they should do. They tell people to say goodbye—'nudge-nudge, wink-wink; go home'—and mum or dad dies mysteriously through the night. This has to be changed even if the Victorian law does come in—and I think it will come in, even if it is too restrictive.</para>
<para>I know of a young man who sent me an email just this afternoon. He will not mind me using his name. His name Jay Franklin. He has been in pain for years and years. He will not be able to take his own life. He will not be able to access nembutal and take his own life, because he is not considered to be terminally ill even though he spends so much time in hospital—most of his life has been spent in hospital—and that is why that rule is too restrictive. But just start it off; take it step by step. If we can repeal that restriction on Norfolk Island, the Northern Territory and the ACT it will be a start. This should be national legislation. Premier Dan Andrews has raised the issue that Victoria is in danger of becoming sort of like a suicide tourism state, to put it very crudely and very bluntly. But people should not have to go to another state. They should not have to go anywhere. It is my body and if I decided that I wanted to kill myself, then I would do that.</para>
<para>About five or six year ago, I was diagnosed with terminal cancer. I was told by doctors that I would be dead within 12 months unless I could get a liver transplant. Luckily, I did get one, although I was very close to dying before that. Afterwards, I held my old liver in my hand and I asked the pathologist how long he thought—I said, 'Do you see many as bad as that?' He said, 'Usually at autopsies.' I said: 'Okay. How long do you reckon I had?' He said, 'Well, now I've got it out and had a good look at it, I reckon about two weeks.' My transplant surgeon, Dr Bob Jones, said it was even worse than that. He said: 'Your liver operation was down to 20 per cent. If it had got down to 18 per cent, we would have taken you off the transplant list', and I would not have been here. So some of you can blame Bob Jones for the fact that I am here and causing you problems.</para>
<para>On a serious note, it must be repealed. It is my life; it is my body. When I was told, 'You've got less than 12 months to live,' I decided it was my quality of life, in my opinion. If my quality of life got so bad that I did not want to do it anymore, I made plans, and I told friends and family, that I would take myself out. I would say, 'Thanks for the loan of the hall,' and I would depart, but it would be done on my terms and at my time. The problem here for some people is that they fear that, if they get motor neurone disease, they will not even be able to pick up a pill even if they have access to Nembutal, even if they know a friendly vet. That is the thing, or you get to the stage where you no longer feel confident that you can do anything. You are stranded in your bed.</para>
<para>I went to that Victorian upper house inquiry and, as I walked in the door, there was a Catholic priest in the witness box, and he looked like a priest from central casting. He had the white hair, the white beard and the big, booming voice. As I walked in the door, the first words I heard him say were, 'We can all die a happy and holy death,' as he talked about the merits of palliative care. I thought: 'How dare you? You sit up there and say, "We can all die a happy and holy death."' It does not work that way. My poor mother was lying there. She was a very proud woman and a very private woman, and she was lying there on her bed with a pillow between her legs because she was incontinent. She could not eat. She could not drink. For several months she could only have ice-cream because of the thrush in her throat that had happened from all the chemo and the radiation. I thought: 'This is not living, and my mother would not want to be that way. She would have wanted to have gone away quietly and died with some dignity.'</para>
<para>So I appeal to the Senate today. It is not your business. It is the people's business to say, 'Hey, I've decided I've had enough, I can't take it anymore and I'm going to shuffle off this mortal coil, as they say.' So I would put my pennyworth in here and just say that we should consider this very seriously. This should go for the two territories, and there should be a new national dying with dignity bill.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will not take long. I will more or less simply seek leave to continue my remarks so that I can speak later on the Restoring Territory Rights (Assisted Suicide Legislation) Bill 2015. Suffice it to say that I have already been involved in this debate twice in this chamber in my long term here. I voted against the Andrews bill that has been mentioned. A lot of the experiences that the speakers I have heard today have related and the arguments they have put are arguments that I totally endorse and that I have actually used myself. So I want to associate myself with most of the remarks—not all of them—that have been made. I will perhaps have an opportunity to elaborate later, but at this stage I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>99</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee</title>
          <page.no>99</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>99</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received letters requesting changes in the membership of committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications References Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute members: Senators Pratt and Lines to replace Senators Chisholm and Urquhart for the committee’s inquiry into the continuation of the construction of the Perth Freight Link in the face of significant environmental breaches</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating members: Senators Chisholm and Urquhart</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>99</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>99</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At this stage we should move to the consideration of documents, but I understand that an informal agreement has been reached that they not be considered today. If that is the wish of the Senate then the documents will be kept on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>99</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>99</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r5799">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>99</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—First of all, I move amendments (1) to (14) on sheet 8044, which all deal with the retrospectivity element:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 3, page 5 (lines 12 to 16), omit "No person other than a retired former Prime Minister or the spouse or de facto partner of a retired former Prime Minister will have a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after the day section 1 of the <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Act 2017</inline> commences.".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (line 20), omit "(1)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (lines 25 to 31), omit subsection 4B(2).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 6 to 9), omit paragraph 4C(1) (a), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a person becomes a holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after 13 May 2014; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (line 27) to page 9 (line 10), omit subsections 4C(4) and (5).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 11), omit "<inline font-style="italic">other</inline>", substitute "<inline font-style="italic">certain</inline>".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 13), omit "14 May 2008", substitute "14 May 2014".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 19), omit "(subject to subsection (8))".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 29), omit "14 May 2011", substitute "14 May 2014".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 35), omit "(subject to subsection (8))".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Schedule 1, item 12, page 10 (lines 8 to 12), omit subsection 4C(8).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Schedule 1, page 17 (after line 21), after item 38, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">38A Amendments do not apply retrospectively</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Despite anything else in this Schedule, the amendments made by this Schedule do not apply in relation to a person who, immediately before the commencement time, had satisfied the relevant qualifying period for the issue of a Life Gold Pass under the old Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Schedule 1, item 39, page 17 (line 23), after "this item", insert "and item 38A".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Schedule 1, item 39, page 18 (lines 11 to 20), omit subitem (4).</para></quote>
<para>If those are not supported by the Senate, as I mentioned in my speech in the second reading debate, I will later be moving amendments to remove the entitlements for all former parliamentarians, not just some, so that includes prime ministers. If that is not carried, I then have a further set of amendments to limit the gold pass entitlement to former prime ministers commensurate to their service in the chamber.</para>
<para>As I was interrupted by question time, I was just making the point to other people who had spoken in this debate that they are all on $200,000 a year. It is not a bad salary, but what they are doing is taking this Life Gold Pass away from retired former politicians—not anyone here in this chamber. They are not eligible for the Life Gold Pass and never would have been. I am eligible but, as I said in my speech in the second reading debate, it will never apply to me, because you have to be retired, and I never intend to retire, but if I do, after 27 years of flying seven hours to and from Canberra each sitting week to attend my work, the last thing I want to do if I ever leave here is to get on an aeroplane.</para>
<para>But other speakers were missing the point: when these former politicians left this place, the salary was much less. And why was it much less? Because there were a couple of perks around: you had a Life Gold Pass, and there was something called overseas study leave. They were taken away, and those of us who remained were compensated by a fairly substantial increase in pay. I think it was—this is going back to 2011, I think—something like $50,000, and that is why you now get $200,000 a year: because you do not get the Life Gold Pass and you do not get the overseas study leave and a few other things. They were bundled up and put into your salary. But former politicians did not get compensated, so what we are doing now is taking those away, as they did to serving politicians a few years ago. They were taken away from us, but we were compensated. For the former politicians, they were taken away but no compensation was ever given.</para>
<para>I want to briefly refer to the court decision that someone mentioned, but before I get onto that—and I will mention the court decision, because it is relevant to the point I was just making—can I just say that all of the speakers who spoke earlier made the comparison that we should bring in this banning of the Life Gold Pass retrospectively from politicians who have retired years ago because Tony Burke went to Ayers Rock with his family on a taxpayer funded holiday, or Sussan Ley allegedly did things wrong at the Gold Coast. Whether they are right or wrong, yes, let us address those things, but that is not what this bill is about. This bill is about taking away an entitlement from former members of parliament. They are no longer here, they do not have a voice, they do not have a say; it is just taken away retrospectively. I am a member of the Liberal Party, and one of the tenets of the Liberal Party is you never support retrospective legislation, for all the right reasons, some of which I mentioned in my contribution in the second reading debate.</para>
<para>Senator Burston said politicians should not get any more; they should get the same deal as everyone else. Senator Burston, do you mean that I should get the same deal as the CEO of Australia Post perhaps? Never mind the superannuation! I would get a salary of $5 million a year, not the $200,000 I get. Is that the one you want me to be the same as? Do we need the same conditions as everyone else—perhaps all of the members on the Administrative Appeals Tribunal, who are on about twice as much as you get, Senator Burston. Perhaps you meant senior public servants, the heads of departments? They are all on about three or four times what you are getting, Senator Burston. It is not that you are complaining or I am complaining. And I say to the trolls on social media, I am not complaining. I am very happy on what I have been getting. I have been very happy for 27 years. If I was not happy, I would have retired. I would have resigned. I would have got out of here. I have never complained. I never complain. Nobody forces me to be here. I am here because I like the job and because I think I can help people. But, Senator Burston, when you say, 'Let's get the same deal as everyone else,' just remember who the everyone else is.</para>
<para>My local newspaper—I did not bother to read it, I might say—compared my retirement salary to that of a soldier who had retired. The article, so they told me—as I said, I did not bother to read it—compared mine with this soldier and said how much better mine was. I said, 'Oh, that's fine. Who was the soldier?' 'He was a sergeant.' Well, sergeants are important, very good people. I would have thought a better comparison for my retirement package would have been perhaps that of Deputy Chief of Army. I have been a minister for nine years. I have been in parliament 27 years. The Chief of Army is there for two years. I do not quite know what he gets, but I suspect his salary in retirement and everything else is far better than I have. But the trolls in social media, the lazy journalists, will never report the truth or the honesty or the facts. They will just do what the hate-mailers like to hear.</para>
<para>Senator Di Natale talked about the electoral allowance. As I said to him, 'Senator Di Natale, nobody forces you to take the electoral allowance. If you think it is bad, you can give it back.' It is the same, every time there is an increase in parliamentarians' salaries by an independent tribunal. You always get the Greens getting up and going, 'Oh, this is awful, this is awful, this should never happen.'</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Rice interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I say to them, 'Well, you do not have to take the increase,' Senator Rice. 'You can give it back.' But you know what, Mr Temporary Chair Sterle, they never do. They always complain, they always blame the government, whichever government is in, but they still put it in their pockets. The hypocrisy of that sort of approach just absolutely sickens me. Senator Di Natale was on about all of these great benefits for politicians. Well, Senator Di Natale, I would not mind having the staff that you have. You have more staff than most. You have more support mechanisms than most. But that is okay for you, because with your typical Greens hypocrisy these sorts of things never seem to bother you.</para>
<para>Senator Xenophon spoke about state parliamentarians and their overseas trips. I can never quite understand what Senator Xenophon as a state parliamentarian was ever doing going overseas. I thought the federal government was more aligned to foreign affairs. One thing I did agree with Senator Xenophon on was that Senator Ryan, who is the minister in charge of this bill, has shown absolute courtesy and professionalism in his dealings with all of us, even including me—and I might say that sometimes that might have been a difficult position. But I do agree with Senator Xenophon on that.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson raised a couple of issues, some of which, I might say, I agreed with. But, Senator Hanson, with people out there, there are always sad stories. There are always disadvantaged people, homeless people. There are always good groups, very good volunteer groups, wanting more money. I do not deny that. I wish we were in a country where we could give everybody everything they wanted, but unfortunately we are not. But I say to you that taking $1 million or $2 million, what it is worth retrospectively, off 30 or 40, I believe—someone tells me it is 150—former politicians retrospectively is not going to enable us to give all these disadvantaged people all the things that they ask for, which we would love to do.</para>
<para>I just wanted to make those comments in response to some of the comments that were made earlier. Again, I conclude by saying this is not about existing entitlements or rights of current members of parliament. This is about former politicians, and this was part of their deal when they left, going back to 1918, and it is being taken away retrospectively.</para>
<para>The matter of a court case has been mentioned. With due respect, I hesitate to argue with the majority of their honours, but Justice Nettle said this in his judgement:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The difficulty with that, however—</para></quote>
<para>as the other three judges observed—</para>
<quote><para class="block">is that the power conferred on the Remuneration … is a power to determine allowances from time to time. It necessarily follows that the Life Gold Pass entitlement as determined by the Remuneration Tribunal was from its inception inherently subject to change from time to time.</para></quote>
<para>I must say that those learned justices missed the point. The Remuneration Tribunal is there for current members of parliament, for the entitlements or support mechanisms that current members of parliament have. I think the best judgement in that case came from the dissenting judge, Justice Gageler. I think His Honour Justice Gageler, who gave the dissenting judgement on the High Court, understood far better than the other judges what this is all about. And why wouldn't he? Because before Justice Gageler went to the High Court he was the Commonwealth Solicitor-General. In his judgement he said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Tribunal—</para></quote>
<para>meaning the Remuneration Tribunal—</para>
<quote><para class="block">itself had no power to alter rights attaching to a Life Gold Pass that had been issued to a retiring member in accordance with a subsisting determination by varying or amending that determination. That was because the power of the Tribunal under s 7(1) of the Remuneration Tribunal Act, to which s 7(4) was ancillary, was relevantly limited to determining allowances to be paid from time to time to current members of the Parliament by reason of their membership of the Parliament.</para></quote>
<para>I think Justice Gageler had it right. With respect to the majority of the court, who perhaps did not understand this as well as Justice Gageler did, that is the right interpretation. I am very disappointed that Justice Gageler's view, which I think is the right view, did not prevail with the whole court.</para>
<para>I now move to my amendments and first of all to those listed on sheet 8044. Without going through these in minute detail—and the technical amendments are there on the sheet that has been distributed around the chamber—I will repeat what the amendments do. They say that any element of this legislation before us that is retrospective should be deleted. I will not go through the reasons I raised in my speech in the second reading debate, some of which I have touched on in this committee debate. Clearly, retrospectivity of any nature is wrong, wrong, wrong. The fact that it relates to a group of people who are as unpopular as politicians is a side issue. Just because nobody likes the people who are negatively affected does not alter the fact, does not alter the law and does not alter the principle that any retrospective legislation is wrong.</para>
<para>My first group of amendments seeks to say that from here on in you can do what you like. You can take it away. In fact, I understand since 2011 it has been taken away for any new members of parliament. There are some existing members of parliament who would be eligible. As I said, I would be eligible, but I repeat again for the media and the trolls on social media that it does not involve me. I am not interested. I am never going to set foot on a plane if I ever retire from here. It is not about me; it is about former politicians who do not have a voice. There are some in this parliament—not too many in the Senate but some in the other place—who would be eligible.</para>
<para>We might not like giving them this thing, but it was a right given to them, an entitlement given to them, ages ago which they should be able to access. Very soon the people who are eligible will die and this whole sorry episode of the life gold pass will be completely forgotten about. It will not apply to anyone. In the meantime it might cost $2 million to $3 million—the government says $5 million. Five million dollars is a lot of money, but when the government spends upwards of $300 billion every year $5 million is not going to fix the budget. I am asking for support for this group of amendments that would remove the retrospectivity. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ian Macdonald</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I was the only voice so I could not call for a division, but I ask that the record notes that I actually voted for those amendments. I thought the minister was going to respond on the amendments but he chose not to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is noted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 3, page 4 (line 16) to page 5 (line 16), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Section 3</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Simplified outline of this Act</para></quote>
<list>On retirement from the Parliament a person may, if he or she has satisfied the relevant qualifying period, become the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement conferring travel entitlements under this Act.</list>
<list>Under this Act:</list>
<quote><para class="block">(a) there are limits on when a person must have entered Parliament, and when a person must have satisfied the qualifying period and retired from the Parliament, in order to become the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires after a limited period.</para></quote>
<list>Travel entitlements are limited to return trips that are within Australia, and that comply with certain other requirements (including that the travel be for the public benefit). There are also limits on the number of trips to which a person is entitled.</list>
<list>If a superannuation order is made under the <inline font-style="italic">Crimes (Superannuation Benefits) Act 1989</inline> in relation to a person convicted of a corruption offence, the person is disqualified from travel entitlements under this Act and from severance travel.</list>
<list>No person will have a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after the day section 1 of the <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Act 2017</inline> commences.</list>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 8, page 6 (line 25), omit "the Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 10, page 7 (lines 9 and 10), omit ", other than to members who become Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (lines 22 to 24), omit ", unless the person is the Prime Minister, or a former Prime Minister, when he or she retires".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (lines 29 to 31), omit ", unless the person is the Prime Minister, or a former Prime Minister, when he or she retires".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 1 and 2), omit "(other than for former Prime Ministers)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 3 to 12), omit subsection 4C(1), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires in accordance with this section</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If a person is a holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement on 13 May 2014, or becomes a holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after that day, the person's Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires in accordance with this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (line 18), omit "subject to subsection (3),".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 25 and 26), omit subsection 4C(3).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 33 and 34), omit "but is not a former Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 7), omit "a former Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (lines 16 and 17), omit "but is not a former Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 32), omit "a former Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Schedule 1, items 13 and 14, page 10 (lines 13 to 19), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 Section 9 (heading)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the heading, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 When return trip is in a year</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13A Subsection 9(1) (heading)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the heading.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13B Subsection 9(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "(1)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13C Subsections 9(2), (3) and (4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14 Sections 9A and 9B</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the sections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Schedule 1, items 16 and 17, page 10 (lines 23 to 28), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16 Subsection 10(1) (table items 2 and 3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the items.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17 Subsection 10(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Schedule 1, item 20, page 11 (lines 3 to 17), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">20 Section 13</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a pro‑rata adjustment where a person becomes the spouse or de facto partner of a former member or member during a year;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a pro‑rata adjustment where, during a year, a member satisfies the relevant qualifying period for the issue of a Life Gold Pass.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a pro-rata adjustment where the maximum term of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement under subsection 4C(6) or (7) will end during a year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Schedule 1, item 21, page 11 (lines 20 and 21), omit "<inline font-style="italic">, or former Prime Minister nominates spouse or</inline><inline font-style="italic">de</inline><inline font-style="italic">facto</inline><inline font-style="italic">partner,</inline>".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(19) Schedule 1, items 23 and 24, page 12 (lines 1 to 6), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">23 Subsection 14(1) (table item 2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(20) Schedule 1, item 26, page 12 (lines 9 to 24), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26 Subsection 14(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The number of domestic return trips for the purposes of the table in subsection (1) is the number of trips worked out using the formula in subsection (2A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26A Subsection 14(2A)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "paragraph (2) (a)", substitute "subsection (2)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(21) Schedule 1, item 28, page 13 (lines 18 to 31), omit subsection 18(3), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Interaction between items</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">1 and 2 of the table in subsection</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">(2) and the rules in section</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">4C about expiry of Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlements</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If item 2 of the table in subsection (2) applies (whether or not item 1 also applies), then nothing in either of those items is to be taken to result in:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person resuming being the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requiring a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement to be restored to the person;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">on the revocation of the order if the revocation takes effect after the nominal expiry time for the Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement that the person held when the order was made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(22) Schedule 1, items 29 to 31, page 14 (lines 5 to 18), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29 Paragraph 21(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the surviving spouse or de facto partner of a former member,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">30 Section 21</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the surviving spouse or de facto partner, as the case may be," (wherever occurring).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">31 Section 22</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(23) Schedule 1, items 33 and 34, page 14 (lines 21 to 26), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">33 Subsection 28(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34 Paragraph 29(1) (b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the person's spouse or de facto partner,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34A Subsection 29(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "traveller" (wherever occurring), substitute "person".</para></quote>
<para>These are the first amendments that we have that will, if adopted, give effect to totally getting rid of the gold pass. At the moment the government has not done that job fully. If the legislation passes in the form we have it in here, former prime ministers will still have a gold pass, so it will live on. Obviously then it would reach its centenary. I said in my speech during the second reading debate why that is really not advisable. When we have heard from the minister there has not been a case put. There has been no justification set out for why prime ministers should retain the gold pass.</para>
<para>Also I would like to bring to the attention of senators that the 2010 Belcher review into entitlements—and we know there have been many reviews—recommended abolishing the scheme prospectively and allowing existing members to retain their entitlements. That was the summary of it. But there was no exemption for former prime ministers. At that stage, although it was a step towards getting rid of the whole Life Gold Pass, they were already recognising that former prime ministers should not be given a special place here. I want to draw to the attention of senators that this has been recognised in this previous report. It is actually recommendation 20 where the Life Gold Pass is dealt with and where you can see the review did not make any exemption for former prime ministers. It is disappointing now that the government has brought in this exemption for prime ministers when we were on the eve of cleaning up the whole mess.</para>
<para>When I spoke earlier I also said that this is an issue of enormous public concern, and, being frank about it, it would be hard for any senator to deny why we are now debating it and why the government has got to this point. It is because it has become untenable to keep this scheme going. The government knows it. We have all seen it in one form or another when we are out in our communities, when we are back in our states talking to people. There is concern. There is cynicism. Senator Richard Di Natale put it very clearly on the record. I have also. This legislation is still important, but let us do the job thoroughly. That is what the Greens' amendments do. I urge members to support the Greens' amendments as the first step in the package that we are bringing forward to clean up the Life Gold Pass entirely so that we can get rid of it and we can delegate it to history.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take this opportunity on behalf of the government to respond to a number of amendments that I know are being moved with respect to former prime ministers, given the time the Senate is debating this. The government believes that there is a reasonable expectation that former prime ministers are required and, indeed, do attend official charity events in their capacity as former prime ministers. Allowing for some travel post-retirement is reasonable.</para>
<para>In my view, it is almost impossible for a former Prime Minister to be immediately free of the commitments and demands that naturally arise from holding such a high office when they leave parliament. Successive governments have taken this into account in providing former prime ministers with a range of facilities, including domestic travel, to assist them in meeting the commitments that arise from their continued standing and involvement in the community. However, the government is ensuring, in these legislative changes, that new restrictions are introduced concerning the travel of former prime ministers as well. First, travel for former prime ministers will be reduced to a maximum of 30 return trips per year, down from a maximum of 40 return trips per year at the moment, which, we believe, will more than cover the requirements for the responsibilities of former prime ministers. This is outlined in clause 16 of the bill. Second, former prime ministers using their Life Gold Pass will also be subject to a new test within these legislative changes to ensure that any travel is for the public benefit and not for commercial or private purposes. This is outlined in 4AA of the bill. I think we have been reasonably lucky in this country with former prime ministers. Someone mentioned Mr Whitlam, who had access to the scheme for a long time. I think it is fair say—although he was not a member of the same party as I—that he did undertake substantial community work, as did Mr Fraser.</para>
<para>With respect to another of the amendments that has been moved, in terms of time limiting access for former prime ministers, the truth is there is an effective time limit that comes by virtue of age. We can see, as we look through the use of the facility by former prime ministers, that as they become less able to fulfil those responsibilities they do not use the Life Gold Pass, as it was called and as it is now being renamed. The government and I believe that there is a place for former prime ministers that is different from other former members of parliament. I will also make the observation that, upon announcing and introducing these measures, the current Prime Minister, Mr Turnbull, made it very clear he would not be accessing this facility whatsoever upon his departure from that office, whenever that may be. So, the government will be opposing these amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I indicate to the minister that I agree with everything he said. In fact, I said that in my speech in the second reading debate. I accept that former prime ministers do have a role to play and should be given these entitlements. But I ask the minister, 'Why do former prime ministers get that benefit, but not former treasurers?' In my speech in the second reading debate I made the comment that Ms Gillard is seen as perhaps the worst Prime Minister that Australia has ever had.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>People will argue about that. You thought she was pretty good—you tried to keep her in power—but the Australian view was that she was the worst Prime Minister Australia has ever had. She was only there for 2½ years. Whether you are a Liberal, Labor or whatever, people recognise that Peter Costello was a wonderful treasurer for over 13 years. Why should Ms Gillard get this if Mr Costello does not? The same goes for former foreign ministers, former health ministers and even for former backbenchers who I know—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You, for example!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, sorry; I was a minister for nine years, Senator McKim—longer than you will ever be.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Macdonald. I implore you to ignore the interjections and direct your comments through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They are very easy to ignore, but they help remind me of some points that should be made. Even people who have never been a minister but who have been here a long time are called upon by community groups. I had an instance recently, not of me—I do want to identify him too much—but of a former minister based in Melbourne. He was at a university event in Townsville, and I was there when a group from Mount Isa came up to him and said: 'You've had a bit to do with this. We'd love you to come out and do our graduation ceremony.' This former minister said, 'I'd love to do it, but, hang on, I live in Melbourne and I'm a pensioner, so for me to get from Melbourne to Mount Isa to do this is going to be a cost that I cannot afford.' That group did not have the funds to pay his way there, so there was a group of Australians who missed out. So I ask the minister: what is the difference between long-serving ministers and prime ministers, some of whom you would not want to invite to an afternoon barbecue?</para>
<para>The principle is wrong. While I agree with what the minister said in relation to prime ministers, it also applies to former ministers; also applies to people who were not prime ministers. That is my point. Whilst I agree with that, the parliament has just decided by a majority of everyone else but me that retrospectivity is pretty good—you can do retrospective things. So, if we are going to do it to everyone else, what I need the government to explain to me is why it is okay to take these rights off a group of people retrospectively but not all right to do it for another group. It just does not make sense.</para>
<para>I simply ask the mover of these amendments how it is that her amendments are different from the amendments that I moved originally and circulated—latterly, I have to say, through a mix-up of my doing. I announced in the parliament three or four days ago that I would be moving amendments and so I ask Senator Rhiannon how her amendments are different to the amendments I flagged in this chamber I think last Tuesday, which I have circulated and which I spoke about at some length in my speech during the second reading debate. I have only just had a look at Senator Rhiannon's amendments, but I want to know how they are different from the amendments I flagged and about which I notified the parliament—not only publicly in here; I wrote to every parliamentary leader and to all the crossbenchers advising them of what my amendments were. I might say that I did not receive the same courtesy back from the Australian Greens, but then who would expect courtesies from the Australian Greens? I would be interested to hear from Senator Rhiannon how her amendments are different from the ones I flagged.</para>
<para>I return to the minister and ask if he can explain how retrospectively taking away rights is okay for one group of parliamentarians but not for another group of parliamentarians. If he says because they were prime ministers, important people, then I ask what is the difference between Ms Gillard and Mr Costello, using those two people as examples. I am quite sure Peter Costello will be embarrassed by me using his name because I suspect he would not be interested in this debate at all—but he was a very good Treasurer, and it is the principle of a matter. If retrospectivity according to everyone else in this chamber is okay, why do we use that to remove benefits from one group people but not another group?</para>
<para>I will wait for Senator Rhiannon to explain her amendments and how they differ from mine, but clearly, as I have said a number of times, I support the principle of the amendments that I have moved and that Senator Rhiannon has copied—that is, that this should apply to everyone. I foreshadow, again, that if these amendments do not meet the approval of this chamber I will be then moving another set of amendments to say that, okay, if the parliament decides that this group of politicians can have these rights and they will not be taken away retrospectively, like the parliament has just done to another group of politicians, then I will say at least then in some way curtail the entitlements of former prime ministers in proportion to the time they served as prime ministers. That means that Mr Abbott, Ms Gillard and Mr Rudd would get a small number of Life Gold Pass travel entitlements, Mr Keating and Mr Hawke would get a little bit more and Mr Howard, who is the longest serving of any of the former prime ministers, would get an even greater amount. In my amendment I did not try to work out the formulas—I thought that was something better done by regulation.</para>
<para>I will be interested to see what the Labor Party's view is on removing entitlements from former prime ministers. I do note, as I noted in my speech on the second reading, that four of the former prime ministers are from the Labor Party and only one is from another party—Mr Howard, from the Liberal Party. I suspect that the Labor Party would have been imposed upon by Mr Hawke, Mr Keating, Mr Rudd and Ms Gillard not to have any part of these amendments, but I would be interested to hear what the Labor Party say about them, too. More importantly, I would be interested to hear the reason they give. The reason should not be that Mr Hawke, Mr Keating, Mr Rudd and Ms Gillard have imposed upon them to do it—I would like to have a sensible account from the Labor Party. If they do not support these amendments—perhaps I am misreading them—I would like them to clearly explain what it is that has led them to believe that retrospectivity is okay for one group of people but not okay for another group of people.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1) to (3) and (5) to (23) on sheet 8062 revised, moved by Senator Rhiannon, be agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [17:48]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>14</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                  <name>Cameron, DN</name>
                  <name>Dastyari, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Nash, F</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens oppose item 11 of schedule 1 in the following terms:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 11, page 7 (lines 11 to 15), to be opposed.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I take it that Senator Rhiannon is not going to tell the chamber what it is about. I find this a very odd debate. It is one of the few times I have been in this chamber where, in the committee stage, questions are asked of ministers or of movers of motions and you get absolute silence. I can only assume from that that there is not an answer.</para>
<para>You might recall, Madam Chair, that in the last debate I asked the Labor Party why they were opposing it and whether it was because there were four Labor former prime ministers and only one Liberal one and they did not want to earn the wrath of Mr Keating, Mr Hawke, Mr Rudd or—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Williams</name>
    <name.id>I0V</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Ms Gillard.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks. I had forgotten her already. So it is a rather strange debate.</para>
<para>I want to again ask the minister and perhaps Senator Rhiannon, as she has found her voice, why we should be supporting these amendments. I will be, as I say, subsequently moving amendments, the parliament having not agreed with my amendment on removing retrospectivity and not agreeing with what was effectively my amendment moved by Senator Rhiannon to include former prime ministers in the ban of the Life Gold Pass.</para>
<para>With the next lot of amendments I will be moving, the parliament having decided that former prime ministers should get the benefit of the Life Gold Pass but that it should not be available to former treasurers, foreign ministers or health ministers, I ask: why then shouldn't we limit the entitlements of former prime ministers to in some way be commensurate with the length of service they gave? Ms Gillard and Mr Rudd were there for a relatively short time—the same with Mr Abbott. It seems inappropriate that they should have the same entitlements as someone who served for 10 years or more as Mr Howard did, most of that time with great success as a Prime Minister of Australia.</para>
<para>I am disappointed that the government—my government and the government I support—has not been able to explain why it is that, although the legislation from the Department of Prime Minister and Cabinet which says that provisions that have a retrospective operation adversely affecting on rights and imposing liability are to be included only in exceptional circumstances, that should be ignored. No-one has explained why the basic Liberal Party tenet of opposition to retrospectivity should be cast aside in this instance. The legislative principle that is often articulated is that citizens are entitled to regulate their affairs on the assumption that current circumstances are substantially settled. That is why, in the case of the superannuation debate that we all remember late last year, I indicated to my Treasurer that if the two retrospective elements of that legislation were to be included I would be crossing the floor and voting against it. I am glad the Treasurer took that on—not just because of me; there were others who told him the same. We all understand that retrospective legislation is bad because people plan their lives on the basis of the law as it is. I know former politicians. I know all of them.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson at the beginning of her speech on the second reading read out what some people who responded to her survey said about politicians. I think it was about the Life Gold Pass. Senator Hanson, I say to you that if the question had been not about the Life Gold Pass but rather, 'What do you think about politicians getting $200,000 a year?' I guarantee you would have got exactly the same answers from all of those people who paid out on the Life Gold Pass. That is the way it is. It would not matter if we were paid nothing: people would still hate us.</para>
<para>People do not have the benefit that we do, particularly ministers, of good advice in understanding issues perhaps a little bit more closely than the headlines they receive in the popular press. Perhaps 'popular press' is not quite appropriate these days. People are leaving the media in droves and going to more responsible, direct information from the source, as President Trump has indicated is appropriate.</para>
<para>But my point is that it does not matter. Just because the group that is being disadvantaged is a group that nobody likes, that does not make it right. It does not make it right. Nobody has been able to—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Like refugees, Macca?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young is a typical example of why politicians are so detested. That is why the Greens continue to get such a low vote across the nation and why their vote is continually falling. It is because people see through their hypocrisy. It is really the hypocrisy of political parties such as the Greens political party that bring politicians as a whole group into disrepute and who make them unpopular.</para>
<para>It is also people such as those in the Labor Party who continue to support people who have broken the law. I mention Craig Thompson. I mention a current senator who got a benefit from a Chinese company to pay his own personal bills, not even for campaigning, not even for his political party. This is why politicians are held in such low esteem. One would think that people like that would be ostracised forever, but what happens in the Labor Party? They get promoted. That is why the general public do not like politicians. But that does not alter the principle that if you are taking away rights retrospectively that is bad, even if it is rights that belong to a group as disliked as parliamentarians.</para>
<para>Some people have indicated to my office that my thoughts on 'why don't we follow Hitler and Stalin' are inappropriate. My thoughts there, which I will repeat, were that if people think parliamentarians are such bad people, why do we bother with parliamentarians at all? Why don't we follow Hitler or Stalin or Idi Amin and just do away with parliamentarians? Then nobody will hate our parliamentarians, because there will be none around. Is that the sort of society we want?</para>
<para>I love my constituency. They voted for me regularly and often over the last 27 years. They are lovely people. Most of them understand that life is not easy. Just because something is popular does not mean it is right. It is popular to give everybody everything they want. If we were able to do that we would be loved by everyone. But, unfortunately, someone has to pay. Someone has to work out what the priorities are. Popular thought, which apparently we are following today, is that everyone should get everything they ask for. But we, as responsible parliamentarians—on this side of the chamber, anyway—have to say, 'We would love to give you everything you want, but you have to put some sense into this; you have to worry about your children and grandchildren and their generation.'</para>
<para>So, whilst it is easy to be popular, it is not easy for me doing what I am doing now, as you would appreciate. It is not easy, but life is never easy, as a former prime minister once said. It is very easy to be popular. It is very easy to be the Greens, because they always come in here and say, 'Give everybody everything they want. Give us everything we want.' They never have to bother about paying for it. They never have to worry about the ramifications. They never have to worry about making a country work properly in the right way, not in the popular way. People will criticise me for saying that you do not go along with popularity and what happens to be popular at the moment. I try to think that we as a government would do the right thing, not the popular thing. But it appears from the vote in the chamber today that parliamentarians are more concerned with what is popular than what is right. Taking away rights retrospectively is never right.</para>
<para>In this committee stage of the bill I want to ask the minister what the savings would be from taking these entitlements away from former parliamentarians and, relative to this particular amendment, what the cost is of providing it in its reduced form to past prime ministers. Could we get some detail of the costs involved so we could know what that is? Could I also pre-empt my next set of amendments and ask the minister if he and his department have been able to calculate the cost savings that there would be if the gold pass entitlement of former prime ministers was done on a basis of proportionality with their time in service. Would there be a big cost saving? I suspect that with the savings we have already made today—by my calculation, $1 million to $2 million, but the minister may be able to correct me on that—that is some saving to a $300 billion dollar plus budget, but I would like to get on the record the figures of what the savings will be from getting rid of this entitlement retrospectively; what we will save the budget and what the cost of gold pass for prime ministers will be in its reduced form—I assume that the department has made some calculations along those lines—and what the cost might be if the entitlements of former prime ministers were in some way reduced proportionately according to their length of service.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>244247</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that item 11 on schedule 1 stand as printed.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again I draw the attention of the chamber—it does not need me to draw attention to it; I guess everyone can see—that this is an incredible situation, where the mover of the amendment is not even prepared to explain what the amendment is, and the minister is not prepared to answer any questions about it. I find this absolutely incredible. Hopefully this is not an indication of how this chamber is going to work into the future. I find it very strange that when the Greens bring in quite ridiculous amendments to most bills that everyone else approves, ministers sit here for hours answering irrelevant and ridiculous questions; yet reasonable questions about what this might cost or what saving might be go ignored and unanswered.</para>
<para>There are questions of the Labor Party on why they vote one way. The Labor Party are not prepared to justify why they vote this way. They are not prepared to say that I am wrong when I suggest they do it because there are four Labor prime ministers who benefit. And I know that the Labor Party are pretty good at this. They will always make sure that, somewhere or other, they are looked after. Mr Craig Thomson, of course, is a case in point. Remember him? He was a member of parliament for some time. I am not sure if he is in jail now, whether he was or whether he is about to be. My namesake in New South Wales, Ian Macdonald—remember him? He was alleged before ICAC to be involved in criminal activities. The Labor Party closed ranks behind them. Remember the general secretary of the Labor Party in New South Wales—who happens to be in this chamber now? Remember how he looked after Mr Craig Thomson? He made sure his legal bills were paid and supported him at every step of the way. Yet, we accept that as being par for the course of the Labor Party.</para>
<para>Perhaps it was a plea that I really did not expect an answer to. But why are the Labor Party voting the way they are? I think there has only been one speaker from the Labor Party, and that was the very first speaker who spoke, I think, for about five minutes. They are not prepared to even justify to the Australian community why they think retrospectivity is good for a group of people—most of them Labor people, I might say—but not good for former prime ministers. I would just be curious as to the policy process within the Labor Party as to why this happened and how they can possibly justify this.</para>
<para>I suspect that the fact that the Labor Party cannot justify it and that, I regret to say, my own government chooses not to publicly justify it seems to suggest that perhaps there is not a justification. Perhaps it is just the populist cycle we are going through now. Perhaps it has spooked the Labor Party and the government. In my second reading speech I gave examples of where, in the past, Labor leaders and Liberal leaders have, when running low in the polls, always cut away entitlements. I demonstrated earlier how it made not one iota of difference. Mr Latham lost, Mr Howard lost, Ms Gillard lost, Tony Abbott lost. It does not make any difference. That is why I am urging senators to do what is right, not what is populist.</para>
<para>Whilst we hate politicians and hate former politicians particularly, they had an entitlement that this parliament is retrospectively taking from them. It is like someone walking into your house—it is not a very good example, but it is the same sort of thing—and taking your gold ring. It is something that has been yours for years and that you have been entitled to. Someone comes and takes it away. You would be upset if that happened. But, because it is former parliamentarians who do not have a voice here and do not have an opportunity to have their say, that seems to be okay. I look forward to the day, of course, in the future when the same thing will happen to the current group of parliamentarians. Mark my words: it will. But it just does seem that because it is popular does not mean it is right.</para>
<para>Again, I ask the minister—I will not even bother with Senator Rhiannon; she probably does not understand way she has moved the amendment—to explain at least the financial aspects of this deal and what wonderful savings we are going to be making for the budget. Remember, we have a budget that, if there had not been a change of government, under the Labor Party it would have run out to some $700 billion. That is what Labor and the Greens did. They spent everyone's money, not theirs. It is easy to spend everyone else's. We have a budget running out to $700 billion. So we do have to try and curtail expenditure. This is why I would be curious to know what the real figure is on the savings that the decisions made by this parliament are going to do to the current budget. And I think the current budget is around $400 billion, isn't it? What are the savings going to do? You cannot say you are doing what is right. I suspect it is the case—although I will wait for the answer. But you cannot say you are doing it to save money.</para>
<para>Again, I refer you to all of the authors, but particularly to His Honour Justice Gageler and his interpretation of what is happening here. This is what happens in totalitarian countries. You know—you do not have a right to freedom, you do not have a right to property; it is the right of the totalitarian government to come and take what is yours. But, fortunately, we are not in a totalitarian government; we are in a democratic government where people do have rights. I am so disappointed that this parliament has not respected people's rights, no matter if, as I say, it is a group as unpopular as former politicians. It is a great disappointment to me that this parliament does not respect rights and is prepared to trade them away.</para>
<para>I will leave with that. I hope that the minister may be able to answer the questions. If he is not prepared to justify why former parliamentarians should not have this right—it is okay to take it away respectively but not for former prime ministers—and if he is not prepared to explain that, that is fair enough. But at least can we get the figures.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that item 11 of schedule 1 stand as printed.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [18:18]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>37</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>Marshall, GM</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, DM</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Smith, D (teller)</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I did not take part in that vote, so I had time to get to my chair. I now move amendment (1) standing in my name on sheet 8069:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 14 (after line 28), after item 35, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">35A At the end of Part 8</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">36 Prime Ministers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Despite any other provision of this Act:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) any entitlement of a former Prime Minister to hold a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement, or to trips under this Act; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) any entitlement of a spouse or de facto partner of a former Prime Minister to trips under this Act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">is to be determined proportionally, based on the length of time the former Prime Minister was the Prime Minister, in accordance with the regulations.</para></quote>
<para>I probably will not take more than 15 minutes to explain my reason for moving that amendment. As I indicated in my speech on the second reading, I am moving the amendment with respect to any entitlement to former prime ministers, which this parliament has now decided is appropriate, even although neither the government nor the Labor Party was prepared or able, perhaps, to explain why this should happen. What I would now like to do, accepting that parliament has decided that, is to try and ensure that the entitlements for former prime ministers bear some resemblance to their length of service to Australia.</para>
<para>I was told a story recently about the late Frank Forde, who many who follow Australian political history will know was the Labor Prime Minister of Australia for I think about eight days during the war years. He, of course, was entitled to an unlimited Life Gold Pass, entitled to an office in Sydney or Brisbane or one of the capital cities, entitled to a secretary and entitled to other supports. Do not hold me to the dates, but I think he had that entitlement for something like 46 years after he retired from parliament. I think he died not long ago. He was a nice fellow, from all reports from people who did know him. I must say I never came across him. I think he was the member for Kennedy, or a seat up in North Queensland somewhere. He had been Prime Minister for a period of eight days. Because of that, under the rules then applying, he was entitled to these benefits for a large number of years following. It seems to me that that is not right or appropriate. I do concede that it is a benefit that really was a property right under the Constitution, but this parliament does not seem to have agreed with that. It should stay, but this parliament has decided: 'Forget about those constitutional issues. Don't worry about them. We'll just take them away.' If we are going to do that, I think we then should curtail what former prime ministers are entitled to on their retirement so that it is in some way commensurate with their length of service to the country.</para>
<para>Mr Frank Forde no doubt performed a sterling service in the eight days that he was Prime Minister, I think during the war years, taking over at very difficult time, on the death of one Prime Minister before the Labor Party got around to electing another Prime Minister. So perhaps he did perform a real service. But, in the attitude this parliament is in at the moment, one would not think that it would have entitled him to subsequent decades of the Life Gold Pass and the other emoluments that came with it.</para>
<para>We are dealing with the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill. But, shortly, when the parliament finishes dealing with that bill, we will move to discuss the bill relating to the oversight authority that is going to look into parliamentarians, guide parliamentarians and audit parliamentarians on their expenses. That is a different class of bill to this one. It is not taking away any rights. It is regulating the way things are done and the way they are audited. When that bill comes forward I will also be moving amendments, not just to have this oversight of parliamentarians, which is important; I want this authority to have oversight over all people on the Commonwealth government payroll. I think most people would think that is fair.</para>
<para>Sure, it is important that parliamentarians are accountable, that everybody knows everything about everything they do—that is fair enough. But I think the same should apply to the people who really control the money and really have the power in the government of Australia—that is, the bureaucracy, the Public Service. So, when this authority is formed, it should overlook what happens in the Public Service. Perhaps it should also overlook what happens in the senior levels of the military and in the judiciary. My amendment includes that it should also oversight the salary given to senior executive officers in companies, government corporations, in which Commonwealth ministers are the sole shareholders. By and large, whilst they do earn money and they do gain profits sometimes, they are supported by the taxpayer. So I think it is only appropriate that, as well as looking at parliamentarians and oversighting them and auditing what they do, this should be extended much wider—to anyone that receives taxpayer funding. I might say it might be appropriate for staffers of parliamentarians as well. That would be an interesting concept.</para>
<para>In this day and age people are fascinated with what politicians do and with what pay they get. They would also be interested to know what salaries individual members of the Administrative Appeals Tribunal or the Human Rights Commission get. I am sure they would be very, very interested in what some of the senior presenters at the ABC get. I do not think many of you were around, but there was a time 10 years or so ago when we tried to find out what a very prominent ABC presenter got—I think he did <inline font-style="italic">The</inline><inline font-style="italic">7.30 Report</inline>, amongst others—because he was getting paid by the Commonwealth taxpayer. The then Labor government, the union and the ABC did everything possible to stop us learning that this particular presenter was getting something in the order of $800,000 a year. As I say, this must be going back seven or eight years ago. I only know that because when it eventually became a bit of a crisis with the ABC not telling us what they got—it was for privacy reasons, supposedly—they did give us a range of what their top three presenters got. It was between $500,000 and $800,000, or something like that. So we were able to find, through the estimates committee, just what some of these presenters do get.</para>
<para>I put them in the same category as parliamentarians because they exercise very great influence. They have a lot of power because they have the power of the press, but they are not accountable to anyone and not elected by anyone at all, unlike parliamentarians. At least we are elected by the people, but the ABC presenters are elected by absolutely no-one. I think it was appropriate that we should have had some idea on just what the taxpayers were paying them. As I say, there was an enormous push back from the then Labor government, the union and the ABC, but eventually we found out a range of what these presenters got for what we, the public, saw was an hour's work a night. I am sure they did a bit more than the hour, or the half hour, they were on <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">7.30 Report</inline>, but the public would only see them for half an hour a night and wondered why they were getting $700,000 and $800,000. It was interesting.</para>
<para>The public will not have to worry if my amendment on this next bill goes ahead because it will enable us to understand not what the junior clerk or the floor sweeper at the ABC gets, but what those in the senior echelons—those earning substantial salaries at the taxpayer's expense—earn. It might be interesting to see what they earn because, in this age, where politicians are, rightly, completely exposed, accountable and at the mercy of freedom of information claims and all that, it is appropriate that the people who have the real power in this country—that is, those in the media and the public service—should also be subject to the same sort of scrutiny. That is something that we will deal with later.</para>
<para>But it is relevant to this, because what I want to do, in moving these amendments, is make the entitlements that the parliament has decided should only go to former prime ministers be related, in some way, to the length of service those former prime ministers have given to Australia. I would ask the minister the cost of the various iterations—what it costs now for former prime ministers, what it will cost now that this bill has passed to somewhat restrict what former prime ministers could do, what it would cost if Senator Bernardi's amendment were to be successful or what it would cost with my amendment if the entitlements to prime ministers were commensurate with their length of service to Australia.</para>
<para>Again, it is a most difficult debate to have when, obviously by design—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Justify it.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have. Thank you for your permission. I am very appreciative of your advice and your permission, Senator Hanson-Young, but I do not need permission, thank you very much. It is a rather unusual situation where you cannot even get an answer to a question raised in committee. I find that incredible. Perhaps it is this sort of treatment that led Senator Cory Bernardi to the decision he made as regards this particular parliament and this chamber.</para>
<para>In case the minister did not hear, perhaps I will ask it again. What is the cost of the Life Gold Pass travel for former prime ministers? What has it been in the last five years? What is it estimated that that cost will be as a result of this bill that is clearly going to pass? I would expect it should be a bit less, but I would like to know what that is because these savings are important when you are looking at a $700 billion deficit, even if it is only $20,000 or $30,000, which is what I suspect it is. I would be interested for the minister to tell us that. I would also be interested to hear what the financial impact might be if my amendments and the other amendments before the chamber were passed. I would hope the department, which is very good on some things but seems to be a bit more mute on other things, could give us those figures so that parliamentarians in particular, because we are voting on it, but also the general public could know what the savings and the financial impacts might be.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment on sheet 8069, as moved by Senator Macdonald be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BERNARDI</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move Australian Conservative amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 8065 together.</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 8, page 6 (after line 23), after the definition of <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Prime Minister</inline>: see section 4AB.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 9, page 7 (after line 5), after section 4AA, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4AB Prime Ministers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of this Act, a member is only taken to be the Prime Minister if the member has been the Prime Minister for a period of at least 4 consecutive years.</para></quote>
<para>I will not delay the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson-Young</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you a conservative?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BERNARDI</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I am, Senator Hanson-Young. I did mention in my second reading speech the importance of these amendments in respect of prime ministers. I do believe that it has become a bit of a circus. We have had a number of prime ministers in a very short space of time. I do not think the Australian founding fathers anticipated that would be the case or that there would be lifetime benefits attached to those who, in some instances, have not done a great service to our nation despite attaining high office.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I indicate to the chamber that I will be supporting Senator Bernardi's amendments. As I said, I cannot get the financial cost of these because the government has suddenly lost its tongue when it comes to questions here. But I am persuaded by Senator Bernardi's second reading speech that this is a worthwhile amendment and I will be supporting it.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1) and (2) on sheet 8065 be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [18:43]<br />(The Chair—Senator Gallacher)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>13</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Back, CJ</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BERNARDI</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 8, page 6 (after line 23), after the definition of <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Prime Minister</inline>: see section 4AB.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 9, page 7 (after line 5), after section 4AA, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">4AB Prime Ministers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For the purposes of this Act, a member is only taken to be the Prime Minister if the member has been the Prime Minister for a period of at least 4 consecutive years.</para></quote>
<para>I mentioned this in my second reading speech: the High Court case that was taken on behalf of former parliamentarians in the respect of the gold card also included a grasp for additional funds for their defined benefit scheme pensions when they retired at an early age. They wanted to avail themselves of more money. The High Court ruled that this was not a property right. I think it is only reasonable that those who retire from this place who are eligible for a defined benefit pension scheme are not able to access it until they reach the preservation age, like every other Australian, of 60 years of age. This will prevent circumstances where we have seen leaders of political parties in this place retire at the ripe old age of 38, or thereabouts, and they are still living on the taxpayers' purse.</para>
<para>This brings into alignment the things that many of us who are not on the defined benefits scheme get criticised for: that we have fat juicy pensions and lifetime pensions as soon as we leave here. The fact is that we do not, but some do. This will bring it into line so that they cannot access it until they are 60. It will also be a big saving to the budget. I am sure the minister is not going to tell me exactly how much that is, but nonetheless I have moved the amendment standing in my name.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I made the point earlier on, prior to Senator Bernardi being present, that I would do each senator the courtesy of responding once to the group of amendments that they moved. Senator Bernardi, I did outline earlier to the chamber why the government did not support any change to the status of prime ministers in this particular bill. With respect to your proposed amendment regarding the superannuation scheme, I—like you—first entered this place after 2004. This is not a bill that is addressed in any way at the parliamentary superannuation scheme. The government does not believe it is appropriate to deal with any matter like that arising through the bill that is before the parliament that deals with expenses, the life gold pass and a number of other changes, as outlined.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that the motion, as moved by Senator Bernardi, be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [18:49]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>11</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bernardi, C (teller)</name>
                  <name>Burston, B</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>30</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Smith, D (teller)</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 3, page 4 (line 16) to page 5 (line 16), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Section 3</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3 Simplified outline of this Act</para></quote>
<list>On retirement from the Parliament a person may, if he or she has satisfied the relevant qualifying period, become the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement conferring travel entitlements under this Act.</list>
<list>Under this Act:</list>
<quote><para class="block">(a) there are limits on when a person must have entered Parliament, and when a person must have satisfied the qualifying period and retired from the Parliament, in order to become the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires after a limited period.</para></quote>
<list>Travel entitlements are limited to return trips that are within Australia, and that comply with certain other requirements (including that the travel be for the public benefit). There are also limits on the number of trips to which a person is entitled.</list>
<list>If a superannuation order is made under the <inline font-style="italic">Crimes (Superannuation Benefits) Act 1989</inline> in relation to a person convicted of a corruption offence, the person is disqualified from travel entitlements under this Act and from severance travel.</list>
<list>No person will have a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after the day section 1 of the <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Act 2017</inline> commences.</list>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 8, page 6 (line 25), omit "the Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 10, page 7 (lines 9 and 10), omit ", other than to members who become Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (lines 22 to 24), omit ", unless the person is the Prime Minister, or a former Prime Minister, when he or she retires".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 12, page 7 (lines 29 to 31), omit ", unless the person is the Prime Minister, or a former Prime Minister, when he or she retires".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 1 and 2), omit "(other than for former Prime Ministers)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 3 to 12), omit subsection 4C(1), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires in accordance with this section</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If a person is a holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement on 13 May 2014, or becomes a holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement after that day, the person's Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement expires in accordance with this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (line 18), omit "subject to subsection (3),".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 25 and 26), omit subsection 4C(3).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Schedule 1, item 12, page 8 (lines 33 and 34), omit "but is not a former Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 7), omit "a former Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (lines 16 and 17), omit "but is not a former Prime Minister".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Schedule 1, item 12, page 9 (line 32), omit "a former Prime Minister or".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Schedule 1, items 13 and 14, page 10 (lines 13 to 19), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13 Section 9 (heading)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the heading, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">9 When return trip is in a year</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13A Subsection 9(1) (heading)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the heading.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13B Subsection 9(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "(1)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">13C Subsections 9(2), (3) and (4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14 Sections 9A and 9B</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the sections.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Schedule 1, items 16 and 17, page 10 (lines 23 to 28), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16 Subsection 10(1) (table items 2 and 3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the items.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17 Subsection 10(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Schedule 1, item 20, page 11 (lines 3 to 17), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">20 Section 13</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a pro-rata adjustment where a person becomes the spouse or de facto partner of a former member or member during a year;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a pro-rata adjustment where, during a year, a member satisfies the relevant qualifying period for the issue of a Life Gold Pass.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a pro-rata adjustment where the maximum term of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement under subsection 4C(6) or (7) will end during a year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Schedule 1, item 21, page 11 (lines 20 and 21), omit "<inline font-style="italic">, or former Prime Minister nominates spouse or</inline><inline font-style="italic">de</inline><inline font-style="italic">facto</inline><inline font-style="italic">partner,</inline>".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(19) Schedule 1, items 23 and 24, page 12 (lines 1 to 6), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">23 Subsection 14(1) (table item 2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the item.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(20) Schedule 1, item 26, page 12 (lines 9 to 24), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26 Subsection 14(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The number of domestic return trips for the purposes of the table in subsection (1) is the number of trips worked out using the formula in subsection (2A).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">26A Subsection 14(2A)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "paragraph (2) (a)", substitute "subsection (2)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(21) Schedule 1, item 28, page 13 (lines 18 to 31), omit subsection 18(3), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Interaction between items</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">1 and 2 of the table in subsection</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">(2) and the rules in section</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">4C about expiry of Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlements</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If item 2 of the table in subsection (2) applies (whether or not item 1 also applies), then nothing in either of those items is to be taken to result in:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person resuming being the holder of a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) requiring a Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement to be restored to the person;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">on the revocation of the order if the revocation takes effect after the nominal expiry time for the Parliamentary Retirement Travel Entitlement that the person held when the order was made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(22) Schedule 1, items 29 to 31, page 14 (lines 5 to 18), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">29 Paragraph 21(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the surviving spouse or de facto partner of a former member,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">30 Section 21</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the surviving spouse or de facto partner, as the case may be," (wherever occurring).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">31 Section 22</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(23) Schedule 1, items 33 and 34, page 14 (lines 21 to 26), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">33 Subsection 28(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34 Paragraph 29(1 ) ( b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit ", or the person's spouse or de facto partner,".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34A Subsection 29(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "traveller" (wherever occurring), substitute "person".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(24) Schedule 1, item 39, page 18 (after line 20), at the end of the item, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Despite any other provision of this Act or the amended Act, if a travel entitlement of a former Prime Minister would (but for this subitem) expire at a time before the commencement of section 1 of the <inline font-style="italic">Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Act 2017</inline>, the travel entitlement is instead taken to expire at that time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(25) Schedule 2, page 20 (after line 2), after item 5, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5A After section 5</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5A Retired former Prime Ministers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Commonwealth must not provide any benefits under any administrative scheme to a person because the person is a retired former Prime Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) To avoid doubt, subsection (1) does not apply to superannuation.</para></quote>
<para>Regarding parliamentary entitlements, at present we still have five former prime ministers on the taxpayer payroll. I am moving amendments here to address the gold leaf that they and their spouses have for their travel. From 1 January to 30 June 2016, which is a matter of six months, former Prime Minister Gillard cost approximately $50,000; Mr Hawke, $62,000; Mr Howard, $112,000; Mr Keating, $62,000; and Mr Rudd, $63,000. That was for six months. The cost to the taxpayers is a drain. Former Prime Minister Rudd has an office in the same building as mine. I have never seen him there. I just think it is an expense that the taxpayers cannot afford any longer. A lot of these men are actually quite well-to-do and receive entitlements through their superannuation. I just do not believe that they should be afforded these entitlements, especially when Mr Hawke has been out of office for I think 26 years or so, and Mr Keating for around 21 years and Mr Howard 10 years. I think there has to be a limit to it. When Mr Macdonald said earlier that the people in this place now have a pay rise—</para>
<para>The CHAIR: Senator Hanson, please refer to senators by their correct title. It is 'Senator Macdonald'.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry—Senator Macdonald—he made reference to the wages of former senators in this place and now we are receiving approximately $200,000 a year. The gold leaf that they were going to get—the travel entitlements—was all part of it. I have to say, when I first came into this parliament, in 1996, the wages at that time were about $85,000 a year. I did not come into this place thinking of the lurks and perks or that I was going to get a gold leaf. That was not a part of it. I ran for parliament to be a representative for the people. The wage was not a carrot, not the reason I am here, and I do not believe it should be. Things have changed over the years, and I believe that if we are going to ask the people of Australia to pull their belts in and we are going to take money out of their pockets or pull back on essential services for them then we as leaders of this nation should show by example.</para>
<para>As I said, former prime ministers are quite well-to-do. Some of them are multimillionaires, if not all of them. And I do not believe that after years of not being in service—and a lot of them were actually thrown out by the people, because they did not want them there any longer, and the state this country was put in under two of them especially, former Prime Minister Gillard and former Prime Minister Rudd, who have a lot to answer for in terms of the economy of this country.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have not got up in respect of every amendment, but I thought I would make my general comments about all of them, because they are all relatively similar and all deal with relatively similar issues. In respect of removing the entitlement of former prime ministers, the opposition will not support any of the amendments in relation to that. I think there are differences between retired prime ministers and all other federal politicians. I think they have a range of responsibilities that other politicians do not have, and I think we should recognise that by continuing to provide them with the Gold Pass.</para>
<para>I cannot leave Senator Macdonald's comments of denigration of former Prime Minister Gillard without responding. I think they were tasteless comments by Senator Macdonald. And I think as time goes by Prime Minister Gillard's term will be seen as a golden era for Australian prime ministers and we will look back fondly to her time as not only the first Australian female Prime Minister but a terrific person to govern this country. I think it would be fair to say that she was the only person in the parliament before last who could have governed this country for those three years. And, as I said, I think the comments regarding her time as Prime Minister have been tasteless.</para>
<para>The opposition is not supporting any of the amendments, so I will not need to jump up again in respect of the remaining ones. We have a set of changes that I think increase the transparency and the responsibility of members of parliament in respect of a range of work expenses. I think they need to be looked at collectively. We have a bill that deals with the Gold Pass. We have a new body that is going to set up to administer work expenses for members of parliament. And shortly, I expect, we will receive a further set of legislation to deal with the changes that the so-called Conde report has dealt with. Collectively it is the hope of the opposition that these will deal with all of the issues that have been raised, both by the events surrounding former Speaker Bishop and the more recent events surrounding Minister Ley. We have encouraged the government—in fact, I think it would be fair to say that we have pushed the government—to deal with these issues. And we believe that when all of these pieces of legislation are passed then collectively they will do what is intended—that is, restore the faith of members of the public in the roles and responsibilities of members of parliament. As I said, the opposition will not be supporting any of the amendments to either this legislation or the next piece of legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I outlined earlier, Senator Hanson, the government does not support the proposed changes to impact on former prime ministers. I will not again go through in great detail the examples of public service or the rationale for that, but the government strongly believes that they have a unique place, and I think we can refer to that with the examples I used before. With respect to a couple of the comments that Senator Macdonald made earlier, retrospective legislation is not completely unknown to this place. This is not the first piece in my 8½ years in parliament. It is reserved for exceptional circumstances, and, as I have explained, the decision that the government and I took over summer to abolish the Life Gold Pass immediately is an example of rebuilding public trust in the expenses framework, of which the next bill is also a very important part.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do not really want to delay the chamber any further—I am conscious that many senators want to escape and go back to their homes—but I cannot let Senator Gallagher's response about Ms Gillard go unchallenged.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order!</para>
<para>The CHAIR: That is correct; it was Senator Farrell.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is an unforgivable error that I do apologise for, Senator Farrell. History will show what Ms Gillard did or did not do.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I agree with that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It really was a continuation of the downward spiral started by Mr Rudd. Whilst you will have your views, I think Ms Gillard first appointed you to the ministry before you graciously stood aside so that Senator Wong could take top spot on the ticket, and then, as a result of Ms Gillard's popularity, you could not even get two senators up from South Australia.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Pratt</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is not relevant. Get to the point.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry?</para>
<para>The CHAIR: Order! Please continue, Senator Macdonald.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would love to hear the interjection and see what it said.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Pratt</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, you don't.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will perhaps agree to disagree on that, but I think history will be the judge. I am not going to support this amendment. It is in line with the other amendments that have been moved, but the parliament has clearly indicated its position. I go back to my original position I stated in my second reading contribution and in the amendments. I think prime ministers should have some entitlements. They have had a specific place in history. I do think, for the reasons I gave, citing the case of Mr Frank Ford, that there should be some curtailment on them, but prime ministers should have some support, and so I will not be supporting this.</para>
<para>I again highlight my position in that, if it is good enough for other parliamentarians, it is good enough for former prime ministers. I think history will show that this retrospective taking away of rights was wrong. It should not be allowed in our society. If the minister indicates there has been serious retrospective legislation before this chamber in the last eight years then I am sorry I have missed it. I was aware of it in the proposals to alter superannuation just at the end of last year. I became aware that there were two retrospective elements of it. I told the Treasurer privately and subsequently indicated publicly that I would be voting against retrospectivity. I am pleased that the Treasurer got the message, not only from me but from others as well, and we voted against it. If the minister is correct that there has been other clearly retrospective legislation passed then I am sorry I missed it, because I also would have voted against that.</para>
<para>It reminds me that the Scrutiny of Bills Committee, in looking at this legislation, made a comment about it being retrospective back to March 2014. I have a high regard for the Scrutiny of Bills Committee. I myself used to chair that committee once, and I know the focus that committee has on retrospective legislation. I have to say in this instance I do not know what happened to the committee. They missed the point entirely. It was not the retrospectivity back to 2014 that was an issue; it was the retrospectivity back to 1918 that I thought was the issue, and I am a bit disappointed that the Scrutiny of Bills Committee did not raise that issue. Perhaps that committee is comprised of government and opposition members who knew what their masters wanted in this particular bill and reported accordingly, but it is disappointing to me.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1)-(3) and (5)-(25) on sheet 8071 moved together by Senator Hanson be agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [19:10]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>5</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Burston, B (teller)</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Leyonhjelm, DE</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Hinch, D</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move amendment (1) on sheet 8077, standing in my name:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 2, item 7, page 23 (lines 31 to 33), omit subsection 10C(4), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) The recipient is liable to pay the Commonwealth, by way of penalty for the contravention of section 7A (the <inline font-style="italic">current contravention</inline>), an amount equal to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) if the recipient has not contravened that section, or has contravened that section once, during the period of 12 months immediately preceding the day on which the claim to which the current contravention relates is made—200% of the amount to which this section applies; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if the recipient has contravened that section 2 or more times during the period of 12 months immediately preceding the day on which the claim to which the current contravention relates is made—400% of the amount to which this section applies.</para></quote>
<para>This amendment, which I am moving on behalf of my colleagues, was also moved in the other place by my colleague Rebekha Sharkie, the member for Mayo. This is about giving the legislation some teeth, some effectiveness, because unless you have an adequate penalty regime it raises real issues about whether this will have real teeth and do what it is meant to do in terms of ensuring compliance with the rules.</para>
<para>This amendment provides for a loading. Then, if you breach the rules, if you make a claim for a payment that you should not have made, you are liable to pay at least double the amount to which the section applies. This is in subsection (b) of the amendment:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… if the recipient has contravened that section 2 or more times during the period of 12 months immediately preceding the day on which the claim to which the current contravention relates is made—400% of the amount to which this section applies—</para></quote>
<para>is payable. In other words, if you are a repeat offender, you pay more, just like other laws that are enforced, whether it is traffic offences or other offences. If you are a repeat offender, you should pay more. There is nothing like having a financial penalty to keep all politicians on their toes in order to ensure they comply with the rules.</para>
<para>Indeed, given what is happening with the legislation that we will shortly be debating, I presume, to do with an expenses tribunal which allows for determinations to be made or advice to be sought in respect of expenses, there ought to be no excuse for members of parliament to make a wrongful claim. That is why this amendment is about giving the legislation real teeth. The current penalty of a 25 per cent loading is akin to being slapped with a piece of wet lettuce leaf. It is not effective. There is nothing like a financial penalty, given human nature, to keep people on their toes to make sure they comply. That is why this amendment is so important.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will be brief in my response. Senator Xenophon rightly gives credit to the fact that this bill needs to be seen as part of a wider suite of measures. It is the first of several bills coming before parliament, the second of which will be coming forward later this evening. This bill includes a 25 per cent penalty. I think it is important to take note, at this point, of the thousands of claims that are made for flights, for allowance to travel and for other expenses that are conducted by members of parliament in their work. We have to recognise that this is a large country. This is not the United States. We do not want to move our members of parliament and our families to Washington or, in this case, to Canberra, and we do want our members of parliament to be accessible to their communities and, in the case of the Senate, accessible to their state.</para>
<para>I actually think that, in the context of the scale of the work that the parliament undertakes and the scale of the travel, it is important that we keep the number of examples that Senator Xenophon is referring to in context. It is important that there be a penalty provision, but the overwhelming number of claims made is entirely appropriate. I will also say that I actually do not think—respectfully, Senator Xenophon—that the threat of a financial penalty is the largest or most important way of ensuring compliance. As I have mentioned previously and we can discuss with the next legislation, with the government's commitment and the Prime Minister's commitment to move to monthly disclosure in a more easily searchable format and in the short term to move to quarterly disclosure as opposed to six-monthly disclosure, the culture of looking for the public standard as well as the rules is actually going to be best met by that disclosure regime.</para>
<para>Quite frankly, I do not think that the issue of what you may call a fine or a penalty is as significant as how most people take their public reputations. I think what we will see and we have already started to see is a cultural change from what was the case decades ago, which reflects much greater transparency because we release more information than many comparable parliaments. This parliament releases a great deal more information about the expenses of its members than, as far as I am aware, any state parliament does. We release an extraordinary amount of information, and that is an observation that I think the parliament should be proud of. I think most people would value their reputation as more important than they would potentially a few hundred dollars.</para>
<para>So, respectfully, the government will be opposing this amendment, but I urge people to see this particular bill as part of a suite of bills that the Prime Minister has announced that are overhauling the entire system in the most substantial overhaul in decades.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the minister for his response. I just want to make this observation and perhaps put just one short question to the minister in relation to that. The minister acknowledges that there is a penalty, a 25 per cent penalty, for a claim. He is right that, if there is more transparency, public disclosure and, I guess, embarrassment if an MP or a senator makes a claim that is a wrongful claim, for want of a better word, that too is a sanction in itself. But I ask the minister this: does the minister concede that, where a claim has been made that ought not to have been made, there are expenses involved and there ought to be some level of user pays, in a sense, for the extra work that the department does—that public servants do—to deal with the mess of a claim? It can often be more than the 25 per cent uplift in relation to the penalty that is imposed that is contemplated at the moment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Respectfully, Senator Xenophon, I think that is a different rationale than what you were proposing earlier, which was a penalty.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is an alternative rationale, but, the fact is that, if we have a cost—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Seselja interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Whatever Senator Seselja said, I will just ignore it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Seselja</name>
    <name.id>HZE</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was good!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am sure it was not helpful! I think we all want to get home. I think the minister's office is contemplating a 1.28 am finish, but I am sure that it will not be that. Does the minister acknowledge, though, that there are additional administrative costs involved where a claim has been made that has been a wrongful claim and that there are additional costs to the Commonwealth as a result of dealing with that? I just want to get acknowledgement of that. I will not take it any further.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Briefly, Senator Xenophon, given the sheer scale of the number of travel and expense claims that the department processes, which are in the hundreds a day, I think it would be virtually impossible to account for that in any way. But I will say that, as we move to the independent authority which we will be debating next and as we move on to future legislation that will fully implement some changes as announced by the Conde review, as Senator Farrell outlined, we do expect to see substantial efficiencies in this process as we move to a monthly disclosure regime because the process at the moment is rather antiquated and reflects very old IT that is particularly labour intensive.</para>
<para>The CHAIR: The question is that amendment (1) as moved by Senator Xenophon on sheet 8077 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill reported without amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [19:26]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>12</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Kakoschke-Moore, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Ludlam, S</name>
                  <name>Macdonald, ID</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rhiannon, L</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Xenophon, N</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bushby, DC</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Fifield, MP</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Ketter, CR</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>Moore, CM</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, B</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Smith, D</name>
                  <name>Williams, JR</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>121</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017, Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>121</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="r5802">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="r5803">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>121</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to support these bills on behalf of the opposition. The reform has been a long time coming. We have needed this reform ever since the former member for Mackellar decided that a helicopter was an appropriate form of travel. The independent review into parliamentary expenses undertaken by eminent Australians, including David Tune and John Conde, suggests a raft of recommendations to overhaul parliamentarians' expenses. We understand that further legislation to implement those recommendations is imminent and we eagerly await its introduction.</para>
<para>This bill is an important first step in the establishment of an independent authority to administer the work expenses framework. This authority will provide the assurance to the public that parliamentarians' expenses are being managed efficiently. It will provide the transparency and accountability required to restore faith in the system with the Australian public. Importantly for those present, it will provide an opportunity to ensure that the management of expenses is clear, concise and unambiguous. Labor supports the establishment of this authority. We support this reform in its current form and we support the passage of the bill immediately.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017 is supported by the Greens. It is largely about transparency and accountability, and that is obviously essential when we look at the use of public money. But what we need to realise here is that the authority is not a panacea. It does not mean that the scandals are going to stop. The issue of MPs misusing their allowances has been perennial across many Australian parliaments, sadly. For the past three decades scandals have broken, careers have been ruined and the public have become more cynical about their MPs and about the political process, which is very detrimental to the democratic system. Every scandal has brought promises that the allowance system would be changed.</para>
<para>I think it is worth reminding ourselves of some of these scandals. The way the government is spinning this package of legislation is that this is now the solution to the scandals that have broken and the whole way that allowances are managed—now there is a new way. The scandals have been considerable and serious, so let's just remind ourselves. There was former minister Sussan Ley and her $13,000 for chartered flights between capital cities. There was Julie Bishop's $2,700 to attend a polo event in the Mornington Peninsula, and on top of she has gone to Derby Day, the Melbourne Cup and rugby events using entitlements. Chris Bowen and Brendan O'Connor—$10,000 was their expense account to take their families to Darwin in 2015. Probably the one that takes the cake is a gaggle of coalition frontbenchers using about $16,000 of public money to attend a number of weddings. On top of that we have Tony Burke going to Uluru—$12,000 to take his family. Another interesting one, because not all the ministers applied for public money to help them to go to this: Mr Dutton, Senator Brandis, Senator Fifield and Senator Birmingham—$7,000 to go to the Prime Minister's harbourside mansion on New Year's Eve in 2015.</para>
<para>I read them out because that is what has brought us here tonight on Thursday night, when most people thought they would be at home with their families. We are dealing with legislation that the government has brought in in response. Clearly they had to respond when the Sussan Ley episode ran so out of control. But again, they are not going the full distance. Yes, there is the authority, something the Greens have worked hard for and many other people have advocated for, I acknowledge—but there are not enough teeth here. There need to be penalties. There needs to be clearer compliance.</para>
<para>I have reminded the Senate of some of the scandals. Let's remind ourselves of the number of times there have been inquiries bringing forward recommendations. Let's run through them quickly. In 2001-02 there was an audit report on parliamentary entitlements. In 2009-10 there was an ANAO audit report on parliamentary entitlements. In 2010 there was what became known as the Bletchley report, reviewing entitlements. In 2011, just a year later—it is interesting that when you get to more recent times these reports are coming out about every couple of years—it was the Williams review, again looking at entitlements. In 2015 another ANAO audit report on the administration of travel entitlements. In 2016 we had the Australian Taxation Office ruling on the tax treatment of allowances and accommodation expense. Again in 2016, we had the Conde and Tune report, an independent report on the entitlements system. That is an extraordinary array of reports and a huge amount of work gone in with many recommendations brought forward.</para>
<para>We are left here with an authority bill. Again, to put it on the record solidly so that our position is not represented, we have been all the way with this authority bill. We support it strongly. But when you look at it the question comes through immediately: what is its main job? Advising, monitoring, reporting and auditing—with so little on compliance. The bill and the explanatory memorandum reveal the extent of the problem.</para>
<para>The Greens, as I have said, are very pleased that the authority is about to come into place. But the failure of the government to give the authority a solid compliance system is a serious problem. I can illustrate how serious this is with a very useful submission that the Australian Federal Police put in to the inquiry that the former Prime Minister, Mr Abbott, called after the so-called 'choppergate' incident. This is from the Australian Federal Police. In their submission they said that the existing system made it difficult to prove misuse of public money. They called for a clear definition of 'parliamentary business' as part of an independent entitlement system with greater governance to ensure money spent was appropriate.</para>
<para>The AFP actually revealed that they had received 70 complaints since 2013 about MPs. Interestingly, they say most of them came from MPs from rival parties. But they said there was not much supporting evidence and, ultimately, no action was taken. The AFP said that because there was no workable definition of 'parliamentary business' it was difficult to prove misuse as, in their words:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the arbiter in determining parliamentary business is the Member or Senator themselves.</para></quote>
<para>Again, these are direct quotes from that submission.</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the AFP faces a number of impediments in proving a criminal offence (e.g. fraud) stemming from the misuse of given entitlements.</para></quote>
<para>…   …   …</para>
<quote><para class="block">… proving the use of entitlements is not for the purposes of parliamentary business is difficult. The definition of parliamentary business is not outlined in legislation or any governance framework relating to parliamentary entitlements.</para></quote>
<para>The AFP said that under the existing system complaints without evidence were referred to the Department of Finance and that the police kept a watching brief that could be reactivated if the department referred the matter back. Again, it is a reminder of the whole problem we have here with compliance.</para>
<para>So it is good news that we now have what looks like a workable definition of 'parliamentary business'. Hopefully, that will allow the AFP and other authorities to pursue complaints. That, really, is incredibly critical to how this issue is managed. If we do not achieve that, there will be growing public cynicism. When the scandals break, there will not be much that can be done about it, and that will just add to people's cynicism. They will just think it is more words and more politicians making out that they are doing something when there is not really a solution there. So I do move this as a second reading amendment:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate supports the establishment of a Compliance Officer position within the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority with the power to conduct an investigation if they have reason to believe that a Member of Parliament has received a payment that should not have been allowed and refer any breaches to the relevant authorities.".</para></quote>
<para>That will go some way to putting on record the urgent need for this authority not only to be established but to have teeth.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I support the bill but I will be moving amendments in the committee stage to include in the ambit of this authority, with the appropriate adjustments being made to the bill, effectively anyone who is on the Commonwealth financial role—anyone paid for by the Australian taxpayer. I was occasioned to consider this, I might say, by an article in <inline font-style="italic">The</inline><inline font-style="italic">Canberra Times</inline>—I think it was last Monday. It was quoting their own editorial of some weeks prior to that. But it did raise the point: whilst there is already quite a deal of oversight for politicians—their statements of interests, their support additions in addition to their salaries, their salaries; all of this is well known to the public, with a lot of it available on FOI—the same information is not available to the public generally in relation to senior public servants and people involved in government statutory authorities like the Human Rights Commission. That just mentions one of literally hundreds of government statutory authorities and agencies, some of which are accountable to parliament by annual reports. Most of them are accountable in a sort of way through estimates. But if you ever ask for salaries or particular employment conditions for some of the statutory authority people you get obfuscation and arguments about privacy from the bureaucrats.</para>
<para>Whilst we are today in this mood of a greater accountability for parliamentarians, let's extend it to have that accountability in relation to the people that have the real power in the Australian government—that is, the senior bureaucrats, the judiciary, the Defence Force. Their entitlements perhaps should be able to be seen by the public. I am not suggesting that the judiciary or the Defence Force have the real power, but anyone who has been involved in government knows that government, particularly at a federal level, is such a big organisation and has so many arms and tentacles that, really, it is the Public Service under the Westminster system that really has the power. It makes recommendations to ministers, deals with contracts and deals with supply—and those things. I think it is important to include everybody in this accountability net.</para>
<para>I hasten to add that over the years that I have been in this parliament and my nine years in the ministry I have met some wonderful public servants. In fact, I do not think I have ever met a public servant who has given me any cause to doubt their honesty, their sincerity, their competence, their devotion to their duty. I am terribly impressed with the work our bureaucracy does for the government of the day and for the country as a whole. I am not suggesting there are causes for concern, but of course unless you know you never know, and this article in <inline font-style="italic">The Canberra Times </inline>did alert me to the need for there to be wider scrutiny.</para>
<para>I have mentioned it before, in another debate, but I will mention it again. The ABC is one of those so-called independent statutory authorities totally funded by the taxpayer, and so many taxpayers say to me—well, the first thing they say is, 'Why don't you sell it?' but that is not an option. But I do think it is important that the public understand just what the senior people in the ALP—in the ABC. That was almost a Freudian slip there: 'in the ALP'. Some people cannot distinguish between the ALP and the ABC, and often I am one of them. I think it is important that we understand—because it is taxpayers' money you see, Mr Acting Deputy President. It would be different if it were a commercial radio station, a commercial TV station or a newspaper which makes its own money, but, where the ABC is totally funded by the taxpayer and very, very well funded, I think it is appropriate that the public and perhaps even this parliament have some idea of which people in that organisation are receiving what sort of money.</para>
<para>I mentioned the incident several years ago now, when Labor was in power, when we desperately tried at estimates to find out what a prominent ABC broadcaster's salary was. I think he was in charge of <inline font-style="italic">The </inline><inline font-style="italic">7.30 Report</inline> at the time. The government of the day, the unions, the Labor Party and everyone obfuscated and tried and tried to prevent us getting that information, but, in what was then a bit of a test case between the power of the parliament and the power of the ABC bureaucracy, the parliament eventually won out on a sort of compromise. We got a list—not by name, I might say—or a range of salaries that were paid, as I recall, to their top three presenters, so we knew what it was. It was something in the order of $600,000 or $700,000, as I recall. I think it is important for this parliament, as representatives of the people of Australia, to be able to know what Tony Jones or Barrie Cassidy receives, for example. We only see them for a couple of hours a week on the TV, and a lot of constituents say to me, 'Well, they only work for two hours a week; what pay are they getting?' I know they work a bit more than this, but—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, Mr Acting Deputy President. The senator is in breach of standing order 196 on tedious repetition. I am not sure how he—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, resume your seat. There is no point of order, if that is the substance.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell must be hearing things—it is the first time I have mentioned it in this debate. Perhaps Senator Farrell is a little bit sensitive. I did not think he was from the Media, Entertainment & Arts Alliance, but at the time we tried to do this there was a Labor senator who was a former media alliance union person—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And a very good one, too.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, who was that? I forget.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wortley.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, that is right—Senator Wortley. She did her work for the union. She tried her best to make sure we could not find out what their pay was. But, as I said, I know that Barrie Cassidy and Tony Jones work more than the couple of hours a week we see them on the telly, but I think our constituents would like to know just what money they get for what jobs they do, and that seems to me to be perfectly reasonable.</para>
<para>Our constituents are entitled to know what I do, what I get and what my travel is, but I think we need the same for all of those who are on the taxpayers' purse. I could go through literally hundreds of statutory agencies. You do get an annual report. In the annual report, you get a range of salaries that are paid to a range of people, but the principle of us as parliamentarians—and people can be in no doubt about what Senator Farrell receives for his pay as a senior member of the opposition.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Macdonald, resume your seat. A point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ludlam</name>
    <name.id>I07</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Chair. I have a point of order on relevance. Being well aware that the senator has not been relevant since some time in the mid-1990s, I ask you to draw his comments to the question before the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Senator Macdonald, you have the call. There is no point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I might say that I would be more relevant than the person who made that irrelevant point of order. If I recall, at the 2013 election Senator Ludlam was not even elected. That is how much the people of Western Australia thought of him. But, because, very unusually, there were some missing ballots in Western Australia, we had another election and, lo and behold, Senator Ludlam was then elected, so perhaps he is not one to throw stones in the glass house in which he lives.</para>
<para>Again, I say I support this bill. Something along these lines would have been helpful in the past. I notice that the Greens political party, when they talk about the reason for this, as is their wont, raise every one of the few members of the Liberal and National parties who appear to have done the wrong thing. They do not, of course, because they are Greens, mention the myriad—they mention one or two, but not the literally hundreds—of Labor Party people who are in the same situation. But that is what you come to expect from the Greens, because we all know—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Tell us about Bob Brown's boat!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senators, direct your comments through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think he wants me to tell him about when the <inline font-style="italic">Sea Shepherd</inline>, which Bob Brown was involved with, spilt oil into Cairns harbour. With all of the hoo-ha about saving the Barrier Reef that the Greens go on about, there was their leader on a ship spilling oil into the Barrier Reef, for which they were rightly fined and brought to account by the courts. Is that what you wanted me to talk about, Senator Whish-Wilson? If it was, please intervene as often as you like.</para>
<para>This bill, in some form, would have been useful earlier. I will go into my amendments in more detail in the committee stage, but they simply seek to include in the oversight what we define as Commonwealth government employees and, in addition to that, members of the judiciary and people who work for statutory offices. They also seek to include an officer or an employee of a Commonwealth company, within the meaning of the act. That means an employee of any Commonwealth company for which Commonwealth ministers are the sole shareholders. We have them appear at estimates and we have annual reports from them. This involves not the cleaner or the receptionist but the senior SES officers in some of those statutory authorities. It would be interesting to see what they might receive.</para>
<para>Whilst the public are very interested in what politicians receive, a salary of around $200,000 a year, I know the public are horrified when they hear that the CEO of a Commonwealth government owned company, namely, Australia Post, which for years has lost money—I believe it made some money this year—gets a salary of upwards of $5 million. In these days of greater accountability, greater openness and greater transparency, I think it is important that that applies to all the elements of governance and government that are paid for by the Commonwealth taxpayer.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My remarks will be relatively brief. I, on behalf of my colleagues, support the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017. It has been a long time coming and it is amazing how things change. When I put up a bill in similar terms back in September 2015, the Parliamentary Expenses Amendment (Transparency and Accountability) Bill 2015, the majority report of the committee that examined the bill basically said the bill was unnecessary. The majority report stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the bill was introduced to address perceived problems with the entitlements system arising from claims made by the former Speaker of the House of Representatives. In the committee's view, ad hoc legislative reform is not the way to address concerns in relation to the parliamentary entitlements system. The appropriate forum for the discussion of the issues raised in the bill is the current independent review of the parliamentary entitlements system.</para></quote>
<para>Well, that was not about an ad hoc issue. It was about that being the tip of the iceberg in terms of what happened with the former Speaker. I think Terry Sweetman said it very well in a piece in <inline font-style="italic">The Courier Mail</inline> on 23 October 2015:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It is a pattern of unacceptable behaviour for which no responsibility is taken until somebody is caught out through the curiosity or the diligence of others.</para></quote>
<para>That is why this bill is important, because it is a significant improvement on what we have had in the past. I commend the Special Minister of State, Senator Ryan, for the work he has done on this and for his consultation across the board, as I understand it, in discussing this with his colleagues and getting it to this stage so quickly. But it is a pity—it is interesting to observe that under two years ago, when I put up a similar bill for more immediate reporting, for more transparency, nothing was done. I believe that, through faster and more detailed reporting of travel claims and much tougher penalties, it will change the political culture from one of entitlement to a practice of responsibility and prudence. But I do acknowledge that the work done by the President of the Remuneration Tribunal, John Conde AO; the former Secretary of the Department of Finance, David Tune AO; and others—former members of parliament—was a useful exercise. I did spend a fair bit of time with that panel, that committee, to give them my views, as they did with others. It seems that we now have something that mirrors, in many respects, the bill that I put up back in September 2015. In that regard, I welcome it.</para>
<para>I foreshadow that I will be moving an amendment—which was the initiative, the idea, of the member for Mayo, Rebekha Sharkie MP—to have a community representatives as part of the authority. That is something I commend Ms Sharkie for bringing forward. We have had a respectful discussion with the minister in relation to that, and I understand his reasons for not wanting to support it at this stage, but I think it is important to raise the issue of how you measure appropriate community standards. More regular reporting, clearer rules and preliminary determinations being made—something that is an initiative of this bill, which is very welcome—I think will all build and strengthen confidence in the system.</para>
<para>Finally, I make this observation: more regular reporting and more transparent reporting keeps all of us on our toes. I for one have a view that MPs who are travelling for under two hours in a plane should not be flying business class. They should save taxpayers' money and fly economy class. I understand that Senator Macdonald, Senator Scullion, Senator McCarthy and others, and all the Western Australian senators think it is not unreasonable that they fly business class for those long legs. I prefer flying economy class, but that is my choice. I think that sort of transparency is a good thing as well.</para>
<para>I look forward to the committee stage of this bill. I indicate that we will be supporting a number of the Greens second reading amendments because we think they have merit in order to advance greater levels of transparency and accountability. It seems that finally we have some substantive reforms. That is a good thing. It is something I have long campaigned for, and I am so glad that we have got to this stage tonight.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak in support of the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017. I will try and keep my comments reasonably brief. The Greens have had legislation before the parliament to introduce a national anti-corruption authority. I think in the last four parliaments—so, under Bob Brown, Christine Milne and now me—we have had legislation to introduce an anti-corruption authority. Part of that authority would be the creation of an independent parliamentary monitor or authority. Today one-third of that bill becomes law and I suspect it will not be long before we see the establishment of a national anti-corruption watchdog in its entirety.</para>
<para>It is very pleasing to be leading the national debate on so many issues; to be shaping the direction of public policy in this country. We have seen Senate voting reform and reform of superannuation—issues the Greens have helped to put on the agenda. Indeed, negative gearing and capital gains tax reform are issues we put on the agenda well before they were popular. It is pleasing to see at least one side of politics adopt those policies. We pushed hard, through my colleague Senator Whish-Wilson, for a royal commission into the banking and financial sector. We think we are close to achieving an outcome in that area as well. It is a long list of reforms championed by the Greens, sometimes at a time when they are not popular, and then eventually adopted by parliaments, or, indeed, by one side of politics. It just goes to show that we are an ideas generator in this parliament and we are having a big influence.</para>
<para>This specific bill does improve the oversight and integrity of MPs' claims and entitlements. We will be supporting it, but there are a few structural flaws that we want to see improved. We would like to see, as Senator Rhiannon said earlier, the establishment of a compliance officer within the authority to be able to conduct investigations into specific claims. We want to make sure that matters are properly investigated by requiring the authority to refer any suspected wrongdoing to the AFP. The AFP would have to provide reasons why they did not pursue a prosecution against an MP who has done the wrong thing. It is very important that enforcement is part of the solution. Through this legislation, we understand it is not just laws that will need to change; it is also the culture. We believe this legislation will help shape that culture.</para>
<para>We know that our other amendment will fail today. In fact, we tested that earlier through a motion. We do think that it is critical that an allowance that is nominally there to provide for MPs to conduct their electorate duties be used for that purpose and not be taken as salary. It does speak to a much deeper problem that, often, it is both sides of politics that are dragged kicking and screaming to these reforms. They often do as little as they can. We would like to push them further. We think there is more that can be done.</para>
<para>I know that part of the reason for this bill and ramming it through the parliament tonight is that this issue is dealt with and swept off the front pages of newspapers, but until we deal with this issue fully and until there is root and branch reform, we will continue to see scandals over and over again. We will continue to do what we can by specifically pushing for reforms to the electorate allowance to make sure that every MP in this place does not take it as salary but, in fact, uses it to conduct their parliamentary duties.</para>
<para>With regard to the specific amendment from the Xenophon party, the amendment would require that a member of the authority be appointed to represent the community expectations and values that are expected from members of parliament. Any effort that brings politicians and people closer together, that bridges that gap and that addresses the democratic deficit that exists right across this country is something we will support.</para>
<para>With regard to the specific amendment from Senator Macdonald, the amendment would extend the jurisdiction of the authority to oversee the expenses of the judiciary and senior public servants. We are open to that proposal, but we have not seen any evidence that, in fact, there are structural problems or evidence of misconduct. For those reasons, while we do not rule this out in its entirety, we want more information before we can support that specific proposal.</para>
<para>Let me finish by foreshadowing a second reading amendment. I would like to add that the Senate notes that senators are paid an allowance of $32,000, known as the 'electorate allowance', and calls on all senators to commit to spending their electorate allowance on their electorate and their electorate responsibilities rather than using it to top up their already generous salary.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will also very shortly be foreshadowing an amendment, but I just want to say—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Dastyari interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can wait a little bit longer, Senator Dastyari. As my colleague Senator Di Natali has just pointed out, the Greens are relieved to see the old parties, except perhaps the oldest member of the coalition, Senator Macdonald, finally coming to some common sense on the need to fix this broken system that we have all been stuck to in recent years, which is clearly not working for the Australian people. The best way to fix this problem is to shine some light on it. It may look like this is a short-term political reaction—some might even say a knee-jerk reaction—to some bad publicity for a couple of high-profile politicians. We have heard stories here tonight about ex-member Bronwyn Bishop and, of course, former Minister Sussan Ley.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ian Macdonald</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Tony Burke.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Tony Burke. All the names have been raised in here. For those listening tonight, this kind of legislation takes a long time and it takes cooperative effort amongst political parties, including the crossbench, and it takes a lot of hard work by a lot of individuals to lead on this issue. I would like to acknowledge Bob Brown, my predecessor, when he was here. We have heard about Bob Brown's boat from Senator Macdonald today, but he did many great things in parliament, including, of course being very heavily involved in the restructuring down progressive lines of MPs' pays and entitlements and bringing them in line with community expectations. A gap still exists between the expectations of the community and what actually goes on here. I would also like to acknowledge the work of Senator Christine Milne before she left, Senator Di Natale and especially Senator Rhiannon—this is her portfolio area—who has consistently worked to raise this in the public profile, and worked in the committee system with MPs and senators to get these bills to where they are tonight. These are important reforms but they are not the end of the story. They will go some way to establishing a healthier culture in parliament and, hopefully, to cementing that perception among the public.</para>
<para>We have had an important debate in this country in recent weeks around executive pay. The Greens, including once again Senator Brown, who previously put up legislation to cap executive pay, feel it is necessary to not only close once again the gap between the expectations of the public and well-paid senior executives in this country but to lead by example. Supporting this kind of legislation tonight and showing the Australian people that we will lead by example on these issues is very important.</para>
<para>The amendment that I foreshadow is very important. Essentially it asks that the investigative work completed by the authority is reported in six-monthly reports. We want these reports to come to parliament to be tabled so they can get an airing in the chambers of parliament, be debated and peer reviewed so that the public has information on the authority's work. If the authority does good work, which we hope it will, no doubt it will hold us all to account. So if that is kept secret and there is no transparency then, Senator Ryan, unfortunately it is an obvious conclusion to draw that that public perception about us pulling up our socks is not going to change. So we would like to see support for that amendment so that these things are released every six months and so that, if there has been bad behaviour and misuse of entitlements or rorting, those things are put out into the public domain.</para>
<para>It is only through this resetting of culture around allowances, us being seen to walk to walk the walk and us being open to scrutiny that we will have hope of restoring trust in the institution of parliament, which is essentially why we are here tonight. On behalf of the Australian Greens, I foreshadow that I will be moving an amendment.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Whish-Wilson. That is noted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise to speak in support of the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2017. I point out that it is not only climate change that has made this a bit of a long hot summer for Australians but also the MP scandals. They have certainly lent a fair bit of weight, impetus and urgency to the way the government is finally moving to address some of these really important issues that go to the heart of how the Australian people view us as a collective and view us as a profession. I am sure my colleagues or most of them would agree, when you get out there and ask people what they think about politicians actually the opinion is not that high—somewhere just above used car salesman and about equivalent with journalists.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ian Macdonald</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is because they know you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is interesting that Senator Macdonald is piping up now because it is quite ironic that here we are debating legislation tonight which is actually designed to save the taxpayer money and the filibustering diatribes and waffle we have heard coming out of Senator Macdonald are likely to have cost us a couple of hundred thousand dollars in taxpayer funds.</para>
<para>I foreshadow that I will be moving amendment 8074 standing in my name. This amendment, if it were successful, would be an indication from the Senate that we collectively believe that members of parliament who have misused their expenses should pay back four times the amount that was incorrectly paid to them. This is about giving a bit of teeth and a bit of a stick to this legislation because the Australian Greens genuinely believe that is what the Australian people would like to see. Ultimately, moves such as the ones we are debating tonight—even though we have been very clear that we do not think they go far enough—we hope will go some way towards restoring a modicum of confidence in politicians from the Australian community.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I would like to thank senators who have contributed to the debate and those around the parliament that have been involved in the consultation with respect to bringing this bill forward as well as for people's understanding so we can deal with it this evening. As I have noted previously, politicians must be accountable for the use of taxpayers' dollars. The Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2017 is now the second step in the biggest reform to the management of parliamentarian expenses in more than a generation. The new authority will provide clear and consistent guidance, advice and rulings for parliamentarians to ensure that our spending of public money meets the expectations of the Australian public.</para>
<para>As the government has also announced, we will continue to implement the recommendations of the Conde June review in order to improve the legislative and administrative framework of the assisting existing parliamentary work expenses system. I look forward to working with other members and senators to ensure that these important and timely reforms are delivered in the coming months.</para>
<para>It is 34 days ago today that the Prime Minister made the announcement that we were going to have an independent parliamentary expenses authority—less than five weeks. Tonight, hopefully, we will see passage of this piece of legislation that is an important step in rebuilding and maintaining public trust in our use of scarce public resources in our job. I think that is a testament to the commitment of this government to actually implement this most significant change in a generation because there are not many examples where government can move as quickly on such important institutions.</para>
<para>The government will be opposing the second reading amendments. I will brief briefly refer to contributions made in the other place as well as in that earlier debate on the Parliamentary Entitlements Legislation Amendment Bill. With respect to the establishment of a compliance officer position, this authority will be independent. We do intend to set it up particularly quickly. Ideally, it would be up in a formal sense by midyear. The interim authority was announced as an executive authority last Thursday by the Prime Minister; we are in the process of working on that now.</para>
<para>In terms of transparency, I had advised that this body is a body that can be called before Senate estimates. Now, that occurs three times a year. I might say, I think most senators would agree that the Senate estimates process is a testament to the parliament and is also probably the most scrutinising of virtually anything that does happen in the Australian public sector, along with Auditor-General's reports. That will give an opportunity for senators to ask questions and that will give an opportunity for officials to take questions on notice. I think that in itself demonstrates the government's commitment to the transparency that this body represents. This body will also have the flexibility to make certain reports if it wishes.</para>
<para>For the reasons I outlined in an earlier debate, we also oppose the second reading amendment that refers to higher penalties above the 25 per cent. As I have said earlier, I think the monthly reporting, in a very accessible format, is actually the greatest protection of all. Scarce taxpayer resources and effectively our public reputations are on the line in the way we spend it. I think that is actually much more important than what might be a nominal financial penalty.</para>
<para>Finally, with respect to the electorate allowance, I understand that this also may have been outlined in the other place. The government does not support the changes proposed by the Greens. The electorate allowance was discussed in a review by the Remuneration Tribunal in December 2011, where the current arrangements were considered appropriate. The tribunal noted in its report:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Electorate Allowance is an expense of office allowance for senators and members to provide them with funding for costs necessarily incurred in providing services to their constituents. It is paid monthly with the member’s salary.</para></quote>
<para>There is a wide discretion for individual parliamentarians in how this allowance can be spent. Indeed, part of the point of this allowance and the way in which it is delivered is to provide funds for parliamentarians to be able to meet a range of expenses which cannot necessarily been foreseen in their nature or quantum.</para>
<para>Members and senators may use the electorate allowance for a wide variety of reasons, as was noted in the John Conde review released last year. For example: attendance at functions in the electorate, such as tickets, donations or purchases at fetes; donations to appeals and organisations; expenses associated with patronage of an organisation; presentations for school speech days, sporting clubs, senior citizen awards, et cetera; telephone and postage costs beyond those met by the Commonwealth; newspaper and periodical subscriptions beyond those provided by the Commonwealth; subscriptions to organisations; or additional full-time, part-time or casual secretarial assistance or wages for electorate duties. How the allowance can be utilised was detailed by the Australian Taxation Office in a specific ruling for members and senators. I am sure all members are familiar with this.</para>
<para>I do not think it is practical—given the purpose of this allowance and the wide uses it is put to across the country by people representing very different constituencies in very different parts of our nation—or feasible to have a process whereby people seek authorisation for each particular expense—in some cases, for a particular raffle ticket. This bill coming forward in less than five weeks from the date of the Prime Minister's announcement—in 34 days—and the passage of the previous bill demonstrate this government's strong support to take immediate action on the biggest reforms of parliamentary expenses in a generation. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247871</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Rhiannon be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate notes that Senators are paid an annual allowance of $32,000, known as the</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">electorate allowance, and calls on all Senators to commit to spending their electorate</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">allowance on their electorate and their electorate responsibilities, rather than using it to top up</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">their already generous salary.".</para></quote>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate calls:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) for the Independent Authority to make six monthly reports on the status of their investigations of any misuse of allowances by Members of Parliament or failure to comply with certification of allowance use; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) that these reports are to be tabled in both Houses of Parliament and put on a public website.".</para></quote>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate calls on Members of Parliament who have misused their expenses to pay back four times the amount that was incorrectly paid to them.".</para></quote>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
<para>Original question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>129</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move all amendments on sheet 8045 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 1, page 1 (line 8), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Clause 3, page 2 (line 14), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Clause 3, page 2 (line 18), after "members of parliament", insert ", Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Clause 4, page 3 (line 22), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Clause 4, page 3 (after line 25), after the definition of <inline font-style="italic">claim</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">Commonwealth</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">government</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">employee</inline> means:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an official (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">Public</inline><inline font-style="italic">Governance,</inline><inline font-style="italic">Performance</inline><inline font-style="italic">and</inline><inline font-style="italic">Accountability</inline><inline font-style="italic">Act</inline><inline font-style="italic">2013</inline>) of a Commonwealth entity (within in the meaning of that Act); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an officer or employee of a Commonwealth company, within the meaning of that Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Clause 4, page 9 (after line 20), after the definition of <inline font-style="italic">MP</inline><inline font-style="italic">work</inline><inline font-style="italic">expenses</inline><inline font-style="italic">law</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">official</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">travel</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">allowance</inline> means an allowance payable to a Commonwealth judicial officer or Commonwealth government employee in connection with travel for official business.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">official</inline> <inline font-style="italic">travel</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">expenditure</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">matter</inline> means:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a matter relating to an official travel expense; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a matter relating to a claim for an official travel expense; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a matter relating to an official travel allowance; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) a matter relating to a claim for an official travel allowance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">official</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">travel</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">expense</inline> means an expense incurred in connection with travel by a Commonwealth judicial officer or Commonwealth government employee for official business.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">official</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">work</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">expense</inline> means:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an official travel expense; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an expense (other than an official travel expense) prescribed by the legislative rules.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">official</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">work</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">expense</inline>  <inline font-style="italic">matter</inline> means:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a matter relating to an official work expense; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a matter relating to a claim for an official work expense; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a matter relating to an official travel allowance; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) a matter relating to a claim for an official travel allowance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Heading to Part 2, page 12 (line 1), after "Parliamentary", insert "andCommonwealthGovernmentEmployees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Clause 10, page 12 (line 5), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Clause 10, page 12 (line 9), after "members of parliament", insert ", Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Heading to clause 11, page 14 (line 3), after "Parliamentary", insert "andCommonwealthGovernmentEmployees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Clause 11, page 14 (line 4), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Clause 11, page 14 (line 8), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Clause 12, page 17 (after line 35), after paragraph (1) (za), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(zaa) such functions as are conferred on the Authority by section 12A;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Page 18 (after line 28), after clause 12, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12A Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) The Authority has the following functions:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) to give personal advice to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) Commonwealth judicial officers; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) Commonwealth government employees;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">about official travel expenditure matters;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) issue general advisory documents relating to official travel expenditure matters; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) if the Authority considers that a particular general advisory document should be published—publish that general advisory document on the Authority's website;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) to monitor official travel expenditure matters;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) prepare regular reports about official work expense matters; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) publish those reports on the Authority's website;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) prepare other such reports about official work expense matters as the Authority considers appropriate; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) if the Authority considers that a particular report should be published—publish that report on the Authority's website;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) to conduct, or arrange for the conduct of, such audits relating to official work expense matters as the Authority considers appropriate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) such other functions (if any) as are prescribed by the legislative rules in relation to any of the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) official travel expenditure matters;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) official travel expenses;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) official travel allowance;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) official work expense matters;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (v) official work expenses.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The legislative rules may prescribe modifications of this Act for its application in relation to Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If the legislative rules prescribe modifications of this Act for its application in relation to Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees, then this Act has effect as so modified in relation to Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Page 19 (after line 3), at the end of Division 2, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">14A Funding</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is the intention of the Parliament that the Authority be funded by a levy imposed on members of parliament, Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees, in proportion to their total annual remuneration.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Clause 36, page 30 (line 12), after "Parliamentary", insert "and Commonwealth Government Employees".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Clause 63, page 43 (line 4), after "Authority", insert "or Independent Parliamentary and Commonwealth Government Employees Expenses Authority".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Title, page 1 (line 2), after "Parliamentary", insert "andCommonwealthGovernmentEmployees".</para></quote>
<para>What my amendment does is that it simply adds to this authority the role of oversighting, in the same way as salaries and entitlements of parliamentarians are oversighted and audited for all Commonwealth government employees.</para>
<para>My amendments—and I will not go through them in any detail—use existing definitions of 'Commonwealth government employee' but include that as being something that the independent parliamentary and Commonwealth government expenses authority would oversight. As I mentioned in my contribution to the second reading debate, it includes anyone who is taxpayer funded, effectively. The bill provides for regulations to give the detail of the extent to which this is done. But, as I said, it does include all Commonwealth judicial officers, Commonwealth government employees and employees of the statutory agencies, and those who are in corporations where the taxpayers, through the ministers, are the sole shareholders.</para>
<para>I draw to the attention of the Senate the new provision, 14A, which I have not mentioned before. This authority would need to be considerably expanded over an authority that is needed for the oversighting of 250-odd parliamentarians' salaries and conditions. If you were to take in the whole of the Public Service statutory agencies, you would obviously need a much bigger organisation, which has an impact on the budget, no doubt.</para>
<para>The amendment includes a recommendation to the parliament that this new authority—much bigger and much more expanded—would be funded by a levy imposed upon members of parliament, Commonwealth judicial officers and Commonwealth government employees in proportion to the total amount of their remuneration. So, the cost of this authority, which would be I suspect quite substantial, will be paid for by a levy on all Commonwealth public servants, judicial officers, parliamentarians, statutory organisation employees, and employees of other corporations where the ministers are the total shareholders. So, there would be a small levy on everyone, which hopefully would pay for the cost of that. Of course, the cost cannot be done by this bill, but the amendment does indicate that it is the intention that that is how this would be funded.</para>
<para>Senator Di Natale mentioned that the Greens were inclined to support this but said that they needed more information. Well, I say to you, Senator Di Natale: unless you know, you do not know. You only know if you know. And the way to know what is happening is to have this expenses authority actually have an ability to audit, to oversight—and to give advice, too, I might say. A very important part of the authority's role is to be able to give advice to parliamentarians and others on the federal taxpayers payroll about what is appropriate, what is the right official travel allowance—those sorts of things.</para>
<para>So, it is an amendment that I cannot imagine would raise any objection. It is relatively simple. It does not go into the ICAC proposal that has been around this chamber on and off over the years. It is not accusing anyone of wrongdoing. It is not accusing anyone of corruption. It is simply saying that, whilst we agree that this is important for parliamentarians, let's extend it to those who have entitlements and salaries that are far higher than those of most parliamentarians and who, as I said before, have the real power and authority—the ones who spend the real money—in the governance of Australia. I am happy to go through any individual clause if any senator requires further clarification, but I think the broad principles are sufficient. This sort of idea would be hugely popular out there in voter land. I am sure all voters would like to know, particularly all voters who are taxpayers—I am confident that they would love to know—just who gets what, and to make sure that all those payments are properly paid and properly used. I mentioned in particular Australia Post, the ABC and the Human Rights Commission, but there are literally hundreds of other organisations that none of us even know about. We do not know what they get paid. We do not know what their conditions are. The ability to find that information is relatively restricted, and I think an authority such as this is a good idea for parliamentarians and a good idea for all of those who are paid by the taxpayer. And I would expect that all parliamentarians, in their new accountability mode, which we have seen today, would be only too keen to extend the role of this authority to cover all employees who are paid for by the Commonwealth taxpayer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In a past life I once proposed to my colleagues a bill that no public servant would get paid more than a minister they reported to. I was reminded, however, that we have a Remuneration Tribunal that makes decisions for senior public servants. It is taken out of the hands of politicians, and I do not think that is a bad thing. The government does not support this particular amendment. As Senator Macdonald has rightly outlined, this amendment would provide the need for a substantial amount of additional resources and funding for this body, and it would be a substantially different body to the one we are proposing.</para>
<para>I will also say that the body we are proposing—which was announced 34 days ago, as I said—and which is hopefully going to be passed through this parliament tonight and established by the middle of the year, in a statutory sense, is really addressing an issue around parliamentarians' expenses. And while Senator Macdonald raises a number of questions, I do not think public sector expenses have reached the same level of public concern as parliamentarians' expenses. I take Senator Macdonald's point that there may not be the same degree of reporting. But there is oversight, through the Auditor-General and the PGPA Act. So, the government does not support this particular amendment.</para>
<para>I will also express a concern that, while the Clerk has quite rightly advised me that the amendment in 14A does not breach section 72 of the Constitution, to levy judges probably would cause a breach. So, while it is the intention of the parliament in this particular amendment, I do not think we could actually levy the judges in the way that Senator Macdonald has suggested. That said, I will say that this debate had a number of concerns along the lines of Senator Macdonald's that have been raised with me in my consultations. I am discussing this matter with Senator Cash, the Minister Assisting the Prime Minister for the Public Service, to consider the issue of transparency around the costs of senior public servants, cognisant that those determinations are made by the independent Remuneration Tribunal as well.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will not keep the Senate much longer. The article that I mentioned in <inline font-style="italic">The Canberra Times</inline>, under the heading of transparency—for those who want to have a look at it, it is <inline font-style="italic">The Canberra Times</inline>, Tuesday, 7 February 2017 at page 7—amongst other things, says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Senior public servants control most government spending. They decide which businesses are invited to tender for government work; they sit on assessment panels for contracts and jobs. Their conflicts of interest are a far greater threat to good government. Yet the public knows almost nothing of them. Their conflicts, and expenses, are disclosed in secret to agency heads and no one else.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's inevitable that this lack of transparency encourages indulgences, and worse. Most senior public servants are, of course, upstanding and deserving of respect; indeed, some sacrifice a more luxurious lifestyle to work in government. Others, however, will succumb to temptation. A little more public scrutiny would go a long way towards reducing the number of those who do.</para></quote>
<para>That is my point. I do think this authority could be expanded in a relatively simple way to bring about that accountability. Sure, there is some reporting and some accountability, as is mentioned in this article, but it is not something the taxpayers know about. I just think this is the right time to widen the net in a very broad way that can be done relatively simply. The amendments that I propose are not complex. The minister has acknowledged that I had referred to the fact that we cannot impose the cost in a bill in the Senate at this time, but it gives an intention and, really, a direction to the government that this is how you go about paying for what I accept would be a fairly substantial increase in cost. It is important that we do this.</para>
<para>The minister, I think, mentioned there have not been a lot of complaints. I am not sure what part of the world the minister moves in, but, everywhere I go, people raise with me the money that is paid to presenters on the ABC.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Dastyari</name>
    <name.id>225099</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Where do you go?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I might say—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Please continue, Senator Macdonald.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There is some noise, not even from the chamber, just from people here.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: I noticed that, and I am sure the person in the assistants' gallery knows that he should not have spoken. I ask you to continue.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator IAN MACDONALD</name>
    <name.id>YW4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor staffers and a Labor senator may think this is pretty funny, but, given the record of the senator that is laughing, one would think that he would be the last one to be laughing about accountability issues.</para>
<para>Everywhere I go, people raise with me what is paid to the ABC—their ABC, supposedly. The money that some of these ABC presenters allegedly get would be interesting. Mind you, I do not expect to get much of a run on the ABC. Well, I will get a bit of a run, just not a very favourable run, but I never do with the ABC—and who cares? There is that issue, and the awful approach of the Human Rights Commission to just one incident, the QUT issue, has had a large number of my constituents saying: 'What are they paid? What do they do? Why are we paying them to do this sort of thing?' The issue about Australia Post has already become quite public, as I mentioned. They are just three. I could spend the next 20 hours going through every agency. I will not, but I think the intention is there, so I would certainly hope that the parliament would agree to this. I cannot imagine a taxpayer out there in voter-land who would disagree with this proposal, so I am asking all senators to follow their populist bent and support this amendment, which will bring accountability right across the board.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (1) to (18) on sheet 8045 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—In respect of the Independent Parliamentary Expenses Authority Bill 2017, I move NXT amendments (1) to (6) on sheet 8078:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Clause 6, page 10 (line 23), omit "4 offices", substitute "5 offices".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Clause 10, page 12 (line 28), omit paragraph (c), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) at least 3, and not more than 4, other members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Clause 15, page 20 (line 6), omit paragraph (c), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) at least 3, and not more than 4, other members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Clause 16, page 20 (after line 22), after subclause (4), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4A) One appointed member of the Authority must be a person (the community member) who the Minister is satisfied represents community expectations about the ethical standards to be followed by members of parliament in the use of public money.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Clause 16, page 20 (line 23), omit "5 members", substitute "6 members".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Clause 16, page 21 (line 4), omit "subsection (2), (3) or (4)", substitute "subsection (2), (3), (4) or (4A)".</para></quote>
<para>This amendment was originated in the House of Representatives by our colleague the member for Mayo, Rebekha Sharkie MP. It is a good initiative to increase the number of officers in the authority by one member, a community member, who the minister is satisfied represents community expectations about the ethical standards to be followed by members of parliament in the use of public money. My colleague Rebekha Sharkie, the Member for Mayo, outlined the fact that this authority obviously does have people with expertise—a former politician, for instance—but we say there ought to be a community member on there. A community member who can represent broader community interests and, for want of a better term, who can interpret the pub test or the cafe test or whatever test you want to put—but the test of reasonable community expectations. It would broaden out the membership of the authority. I understand that in the other place the Australian Greens supported the amendment, and the member for Indi as well, but that the major parties did not. If the position has changed I would like to know. It is not our intention to divide on this amendment, but the point we wish to make is that we think there is real scope to improve this authority by having that level of committee representation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I explained to Senator Xenophon and the Member for Mayo in the discussion we had about this, I will not repeat the statement that was at some length made in the House of Representatives about this. I will simply say that, as was noted by the Member for Mayo, I indicated a willingness to have a discussion about this in about a year or so, after the authority is up and running. But at the moment the bill has specified a certain degree of skills that the authority needs. I am not convinced that we can find any one person to represent the community. I am not a believer that you can pick one person to represent the community like that. But I will say that I know it is moved in good faith and I have committed to having a discussion about that. We are focused on getting this up and running as quickly as possible so that members and senators have it set up under this law by midyear.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The question is that amendments (1)-(6) on sheet 8078 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move Greens amendment (1) on sheet 8066:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Page 29 (after line 24), at the end of Division 7, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">34A Authority must refer fraud to the Australian Federal Police</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) If the Authority suspects that a claim in relation to any of the following is fraudulent or misleading, the Authority must refer the matter to the Australian Federal Police:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an MP work expense;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) an MP travel allowance;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a designated parliamentary benefit;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) a MOPS travel expense;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) a MOPS travel allowance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Subsection (1) does not, by implication, limit a person's power to refer a matter to a member of an Australian police force.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Authority refers a matter to the Australian Federal Police under subsection (1); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Australian Federal Police or the Director of Public Prosecutions decides not to pursue the matter;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the person who decided not to pursue the matter must notify the Authority of the reasons for the decision.</para></quote>
<para>This covers the issue that Senator Richard Di Natale and I spoke about—that is, that the authority needs teeth or it needs some muscle. This is what the amendment would do. It puts in place a provision that the authority must refer fraud matters to the Australian Federal Police. If the authority suspects that a claim from an MP could possibly be fraudulent, such as an MP work expense, an MP travel allowance, a designated parliamentary benefit, or a MOPS travel expense or travel allowance, that would be referred to the Australian Federal Police.</para>
<para>It is very important that this is included in the legislation we have before us, otherwise it is like a toothless tiger. We actually have a major problem: we have taken a relatively big step but it is like we are really mincing our footsteps before we even get going, if we do not get this in place. So I very strongly urge the senators to support this amendment. It is an important aspect of the authority, if it is able to do the work and to rebuild confidence with the public that they can trust their politicians, that we have mechanisms to deal with any problems that arise in the use of public money.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government does not support amending legislation specifying that the authority may refer matters to the Australian Federal Police, should they believe a claim to be fraudulent. Members and senators are not above the law, and I would expect that in the very rare circumstance that someone commits a crime they should be reported to police. No-one in this place would disagree with that approach.</para>
<para>The independent authority has been established to ensure that authoritative advice is given to members and senators about their claims, to audit all work expenses, and to increase transparency. It is this transparency that will ensure that more and more eyes are actually on how we behave.</para>
<para>I am not entirely sure how this proposal adds to transparency. This is the single most significant change to parliamentary expenses in decades—it has been brought into this parliament, and, with the assistance of senators and members, will hopefully pass the parliament 34 days later—and I do not think we, as senators and members, should be referring to it as a toothless tiger. I actually do believe it is important to rebuild and maintain public faith in expenses. There will always be a level of challenging of those and I have no problem with that, because it involves scarce public funds. But, in my final contribution, if I could urge senators to actually reflect on the fact that if we start using terms like 'toothless tiger' before this body is set up—I do not think we want to hobble it.</para>
<para>One can disagree—there may be little changes here and there and I think I have outlined a reasonable position as to why not. I make no accusation about the motive of others. As I said about the previous amendment from Senator Xenophon, I know that it was motivated by a genuine world view. I will simply ask that people give this authority time to work. It will come before Senate estimates. There is no more gruelling process of scrutiny in this country than the three-times-a-year hearings around Senate estimates. To be fair, substantial scrutiny will be put on this authority and the authority, I think, is aware of that. On top of that you will have monthly reporting.</para>
<para>So, let's give the body a chance before we actually start saying things like 'toothless tiger'. I do not think that is justified with this bill. I do not think it is justified by the commitment demonstrated by the Prime Minister and this government.</para>
<para>The next amendment I know the Greens are moving reflects their proposed change, which is in their second reading amendment to the electorate allowance. I do not propose to comment again. My comments earlier on stand with respect to that amendment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator XENOPHON</name>
    <name.id>8IV</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Very briefly, because I understand there will not be a division on this particular amendment. I, and on behalf of my colleagues, support this amendment, but we do believe that this authority is by no means a toothless tiger, that it is a significant improvement on what there has been. We think, though, that this amendment moved by Senator Rhiannon will improve it and give it added force, but we still think that it will do a lot of good work. A final question: can the minister confirm that this authority will be appearing before Senate estimates? If not, what other mechanism is there for it to be accountable to the parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I sought advice earlier to confirm that and it was confirmed to me that it is able to be called before Senate estimates.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR (20:44): The question is that amendment (1) on sheet 8066 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RHIANNON</name>
    <name.id>CPR</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move Greens amendment (2) on sheet 8066:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Page 43 (after line 5), after clause 63, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">63A Electorate allowance</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Despite any provision of the <inline font-style="italic">Remuneration Tribunal Act 1973</inline>, if the Remuneration Tribunal determines an electorate allowance for members of parliament, the Remuneration Tribunal must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) require the electorate allowance to be deposited into a separate account of the member; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) prevent the electorate allowance being taken as income by the member.</para></quote>
<para>This covers the important matter of the electorate allowance. The senators would have heard from Senator Richard Di Natale on this matter earlier. This puts in place the important provision with regard to ensuring that the money in our electorate allowance is actually spent on our electorate work. That is a very basic requirement. It is extraordinary that people would disagree with it and not get those provisions in place.</para>
<para>To set it out: how it would work is that, despite any provision in the act that covers the Remuneration Tribunal, if the tribunal determines an electorate allowance for members of parliament, the Remuneration Tribunal must require the electorate allowance to be deposited in a separate account from that of the member of parliament and prevent the electorate allowance being taken as income by the member. So there are two simple measures: the electorate allowance goes into a dedicated account, and it is spent on the electorate. Surely that is how it should have been set up in the first place. It looks like it was a major oversight. Let us get that sorted out now.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
<para>Bills agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills reported without amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>135</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RYAN</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>In doing so, I would like to thank Senate colleagues in particular for their understanding in allowing the passage of this bill and the consultation in such a short period of time to facilitate the delivery of the government's commitment.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017</title>
          <page.no>135</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" style="" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r5795">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>135</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017. This bill will provide tax deductibility for donations to the Bourke Street Fund, which has been established in the wake of the terrible loss of six innocent lives on 20 January this year in Melbourne's CBD. Labor wholeheartedly supports the Commonwealth and Victorian governments in their efforts to support this fund and to ensure that all those affected by this tragedy receive every support they need.</para>
<para>The fund itself will be overseen by an independent panel that will make decisions on how money donated to the fund should be spent, in consultation with the Victorian government, with a focus given to the families of the deceased. The bill will make the necessary changes to the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 to add the Bourke Street Fund to the list of deductible gift recipients. This will allow members of the public to claim donations to the fund as tax deductible, as is wholly appropriate. The specific detail of how that will function is available in the explanatory memorandum.</para>
<para>I would like to also put on the public record my and the Labor Party's appreciation for the excellent work of our professional emergency services personnel in responding to this tragedy and also to note the courageous actions of many bystanders who were witnesses to the incident and offered their own help to the injured. Even when they are confronted with utterly senseless tragedy, it is always heartening to see the way in which Australians respond with characteristic empathy, generosity and resilience.</para>
<para>I have no doubt many Australians were as inspired as I was by the stories of those bystanders who demonstrated selfless courage in rushing to the aid of injured strangers or drew solace upon seeing the overflowing floral tributes and letters that grew into an impromptu memorial around the steps of Melbourne's historic GPO. And, of course, many Australians have shown tremendous generosity and donated to the fund, which has now raised in excess of $1 million. I thank those who have donated, and I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DI NATALE</name>
    <name.id>53369</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in support of the Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017. It was a regular January lunchtime in Melbourne city. The Bourke Street Mall, in the heart of the city, was full of shoppers, workers on their lunchbreak, holiday-makers, parents and their children. In a few short minutes, one person managed to wreak havoc in the heart of the city, and lives were ruined forever. We wish these moments when lives are taken needlessly and many others are injured would never arise, but sadly, tragically, these events do occur. They disturb our sense of who we are, our sense of order and our sense of reality, and we ask ourselves: why?</para>
<para>Our sympathies and love go out to the families and friends of those who passed away on that fateful day, and our strength goes out to those who were injured and are still fighting to recover. We acknowledge the bravery and resolve of those people who rushed to care for the dying and injured—ordinary civilians who showed courage in the face of adversity. We also thank the emergency services personnel who responded so bravely and so quickly in the line of duty.</para>
<para>It happened just a short month ago. There was an immediate outpouring of emotion and grief in Melbourne and around the country. Now our job is to ensure that those families—those people involved in this tragedy who were so devastated by the event—are remembered and supported through our actions. I encourage all Australians who are able to do so to support the Bourke Street Fund, to open their hearts and to honour the memory of so many lives taken far too soon.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is with great sadness that I reflect on the horrific tragedy that occurred on Bourke Street in the Melbourne CBD on 20 January this year. The despicable, unspeakable actions of one man that day claimed the lives of many Victorians and indeed injured many more. One man drove his car into crowds of pedestrians who were innocent bystanders to his acts of selfish, senseless aggression and violence. Many of the victims of this tragedy were on their lunch break, travelling between meetings, running errands, looking after their children or were children themselves.</para>
<para>The appalling events of that day showed us all the very best of the Australian spirit. Good Samaritans like taxidriver Lou Bougias rushed to the aid of the injured and spoke softly and reassuringly to those in shock and in pain until the emergency services could arrive. I commend the actions of Mr Bougias and all of those who helped that day. I thank them sincerely for their service to our state in a time of great darkness.</para>
<para>The bill before the chamber tonight is this parliament's opportunity to pay its respects to the victims of the Bourke Street tragedy and to acknowledge the generosity of so many Victorians who have given what they can in a time of their collective grief. I stand tonight amongst all my Victorian colleagues in this chamber. We have different political views and come from different backgrounds but on this issue we are Victorians first and foremost. Like all Victorians, our hearts are broken but our resolve is strengthened. On behalf of senators Fifield, Ryan, Paterson and McKenzie, on behalf of senators Carr, Collins, Marshall and Kitching, on behalf of senators Di Natale, Rice and Hinch and on my own behalf, I am extraordinarily proud to stand in this chamber this evening and to commend the Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017 to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HINCH</name>
    <name.id>2O4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At 1.39 pm on the Friday the week after the Bourke Street mall massacre, hundreds of us stood at the GPO and had a minute's silence, surrounded by floral tributes, teddy bears and excruciatingly emotional cards and tributes to the fallen, and reflected on what had happened. I said on that day that at 1.39 pm on 20 January we saw Melbourne at its worst and in the minutes, hours and days after that we saw Melbourne at its best. I had my say earlier this week; I just wanted to say that it was a most ghastly time for Melbourne but, in the aftermath, it proved its strength, character and bravery and what a wonderful city it is.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank my Victorian colleagues for their contributions. As has been outlined, this bill—the Treasury Laws Amendment (Bourke Street Fund) Bill 2017—adds the Bourke Street Fund trust account as a deductible gift recipient specific listing. Organisations are listed by name as DGRs in division 30 of the Income Tax Assessment Act 1997 only in exceptional circumstances and where they do not fit within the general categories available under the tax law. Obtaining DGR status helps the listed entities attract public financial support for their activities as taxpayers can claim an income tax deduction for gifts of $2 or more to DGR entities.</para>
<para>On 20 January 2017 a vicious and senseless attack took place in Bourke Street and elsewhere in the central business district of Melbourne. On 21 January 2017 the Victorian government announced the creation of a fund to provide financial support for the immediate families of the deceased and those injured as well as their immediate families. On 22 January the Prime Minister and the Minister for Revenue and Financial Services announced that the Australian government would work with the Victorian government to ensure that the fund received deductible gift recipient status and confirmed that the Commonwealth would contribute $100,000 to the fund. This is an appropriate way for the Commonwealth and this parliament to make a contribution and to support arrangements that will be of assistance to those injured and their immediate families. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Outside the standing orders, I ask all in the chamber to stand for a moment to reflect on and to respect the memory of those who have passed away and the families of those who are still struggling.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Honourable senators having stood in their places—</inline></para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>137</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As no amendments to the bill have been circulated, I shall call the minister to move the third reading unless any senator requires that the bill be considered in Committee of the Whole.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>J7Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that that be recorded as a unanimous decision of the chamber.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>137</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIFIELD</name>
    <name.id>D2I</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate do now adjourn.</para></quote>
<para>Senate adjourned at 20 : 59</para>
</speech>
</debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>137</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>137</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>