﻿
<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2024-11-27</date>
    <parliament.no>2</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>0</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
    <business.start>
      <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:WX="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-SODJobDate">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;" />
            <a href="Chamber" type="">Wednesday, 27 November 2024</a>
          </span>
        </p>
        <p class="HPS-Normal" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Sue Lines</span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">)</span> took the chair at 09:00, made an acknowledgement of country and read prayers.</span>
        </p>
      </body>
    </business.start>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5341</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>5341</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5341</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Meeting</title>
          <page.no>5341</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If there is no objection, the meetings are authorised.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5341</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>5341</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to table documents of correspondence between the President and me relating to the referral of a senator's eligibility under section 44 of the Constitution for inquiry and report, as circulated among the whips on Monday night.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would prevent me moving that the documents be tabled.</para></quote>
<para>I have written to the President with regard to Senator Payman and her eligibility to stand in this parliament. I have received a letter back from the President with regard to this, and I believe that this documentation should be tabled in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> for everyone to see and know what this correspondence is about. Later today I am moving a motion for it to be put to a vote via the parliament that the matter be referred to a committee, as was the case for many senators in this place, regardless of their political party, in establishing their right, under section 44, to stand in this parliament.</para>
<para>What is happening now, as I see it, is a protection racket by the Greens to protect Senator Payman. That's not what this place is about. Why is someone being treated in a totally different way than every other senator in this place? These documents should be tabled so everyone can see what is stated in them, which I think is very important. The people of Australia should know what is going on here.</para>
<para>I don't know why the Greens are pulling this stunt again, as a protection racket for Senator Payman. I know that she votes with them pretty much most of the time, but it shouldn't be a mate's call here, looking after your mates. This is relevant to this parliament, under section 44 of the Constitution, so they are obstructing justice. This should be referred to a committee for investigation as to whether she is eligible to stand in this place. Why are the Greens doing this? Why are they denying this? There's no clear indication or reason for them to do it—just obstructing the game for the sake of doing it. That's why they are absolute loose cannons in this place with what they support and what they don't support. That's why I keep calling for this: the Greens must go. It's all about them and what they want and not what is right for the Australian people. So I will continue.</para>
<para>I tell you what, the way I'm treated with this—not putting the documents up, plus other stuff—two can actually stop and call out for no formal motions to be agreed to. Be prepared for it, and I will stand my ground on this issue. I don't believe it's right that anyone should be stopped. I will do this again and again and again, but be prepared because I will do it today. You'll see me a lot down here, because what one wants to do the other can do just as well. I'll be doing it, so be sure. Be prepared for it if you won't allow these documents to be supported and put in.</para>
<para>Anyway, it's coming to a vote this afternoon—it's no. 5 on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>. I hope that it does go to the vote because I will be putting it to the vote. It should be referred to the Constitution, and referred to the Standing Committee of Senators' Interests for inquiry. That's what I'll be doing. It's not going to the High Court. We're not going to the High Court. I'm not doing that. It needs to be sent to an inquiry to be investigated properly and thoroughly, because the documentation is not good enough. It would not be good enough for anyone else here in this place, so why is the protection racket going on? I don't know. I will keep trying to expose this and call for accountability, and I hope I get the support from the other senators in this place as well.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, why don't you just look at me when you're saying all these things through the chair? It's absolutely outrageous that you're going to come to this place to suspend standing orders when we've got an agenda full of important things that Australians want us to do. Instead of representing her constituents through the chair, Senator Hanson is more caught up in section 44. You know what? Through the chair, Senator Hanson has worn the burqa in this place—maybe it's time that she pack her burqa and go to Afghanistan and talk to the Taliban about this. Clearly, when the Labor Party put me up as a candidate, they did their homework. And here it is—here's the advice, Senator Hanson. Do you want to see it for yourself? No, you're in absolute denial. All that Senator Hanson does in this place is spread hatred and spread division because that's what she's made to do here. It's outrageous. It's beyond comprehension.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If you've got nothing to hide then put it up.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Here! Take it! I absolutely just don't understand why we're wasting our time talking about a matter that has no basis. You've had it good for too long, Senator Hanson—through the chair.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, is this a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, it is, because if she's got the documents I ask her to table those documents.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not a point of order. Senator Payman, you have the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am very honoured that I live rent-free in Senator Hanson's mind, but I think you've got better things to do than worry about section 44 here when there's nothing to see. The racism and comments and quotes that you've made in the past—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I want 'racism' withdrawn. It's not racism. I want it withdrawn.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Payman, I would rephrase that, please. I'd ask you to withdraw for the benefit of the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay. I would like to make a few quotes from Senator Hanson that have previously indicated—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Payman, you have to withdraw for the benefit of the chamber, then you can quote as much as you want.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will withdraw so I can proceed. Senator Hanson has said, 'I challenge anyone to tell me one thing that I've said that is racist.' Here I begin—there are a few. There are so many we could be here all day. She said, in her first speech, 'I believe we are in danger of being swamped by Asians.' In 1998, in a policy speech, she said that Aboriginality would no longer exist under her party's policies. In another statement she said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We're bringing in people from South Africa at the moment. There's a huge amount coming into Australia, who have diseases; they've got AIDS …</para></quote>
<para>If that is not racist, what is it?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's not, sweetheart.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Oh, it's not racist! Somebody bring the dictionary because Senator Hanson does not know the definition of racism. The fact that you would say, just weeks ago, to Senator Faruqi, 'Piss off back to Pakistan,' means you're not just vindictive, mean, nasty; you bring disgrace to the human race—no dignity whatsoever as a senator in this prestigious place, where we're supposed to bring unity and where we're supposed to have that freedom of expression, yes, but within the boundaries and confinements of respect. I kept on giving you the benefit of the doubt, Senator Hanson, despite your repetitive attempts to be racist to anyone who does not look like you.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, do you have a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I do. I want these comments about calling me racist withdrawn.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You're a convicted racist.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, this is not adding to the debate. Accusing someone of being a racist is in breach of the standing orders. Senator Payman, can you withdraw that and continue with your remarks, for the benefit of this chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For the benefit of this chamber, I will withdraw. But do you know what, Senator Hanson? How do you live with yourself, Senator Hanson, with so much vile hatred? How do you live through your days spreading hatred? How do you go to sleep? How do you look your neighbours in the eye knowing that you come to this place and spread the vile hatred, the vile comments that you make? It's disgraceful. It's disgusting. I have no other words to describe your actions. I don't know how you're going to justify it to every Australian out there watching, because I hope they're watching what Senator Hanson is doing. She's holding up the business of the day because she is obsessed with me. Wow—well done!</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to speak to the matter before the chair, which is the suspension of standing orders in relation to a denial by the Greens of Senator Hanson's request to table a document. The opposition will support Senator Hanson tabling that document. She has gone through the appropriate processes by providing the document to this place to enable the chamber to make a determination about the validity of the document, so we will be supporting Senator Hanson in her quest to table this document.</para>
<para>I would add that this in no way is a reflection of the views of the coalition on what is contained in that document, on the substance of that document. This is merely a procedural support because we believe that the conventions of this place are extremely important, and the convention to allow a senator to be able to table a document that's been through the appropriate processes is something that we will support. But I would draw to the attention of the chamber that, once again, this in no way reflects the coalition's view on the substantive matter that is contained in the document that Senator Hanson is seeking to table.</para>
<para>I would also draw to the attention of the chamber that this was a simple procedural matter that could have gone through this morning—and it could have gone through yesterday—quite simply by allowing Senator Hanson to table the document and allowing the appropriate processes to take place after that. Instead of that being the case, the Greens have sought on both occasions to deny leave to Senator Hanson, and in doing so they have stimulated a significant debate on the substantive issue that's contained in Senator Hanson's document. I would suggest that the Greens perhaps rethink this. If they really don't want this matter to be the subject of continued debate and really don't want this matter to be something that continues to consume the time of this chamber—when we know that we've got very important legislation that needs to be dealt with over the coming hours and remaining few days that this parliament is sitting—then perhaps they should respect the procedures of this chamber and respect the right of senators to be able to use those procedures. There is a very significant difference between a procedural—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, it is not adding to the debate. You will have an opportunity to speak, and you can speak. I'd like to hear Senator Ruston in silence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In my closing remarks, I draw attention to this particular issue—that there is a very big difference between a procedural motion and a substantial motion. We are today seeking only to deal with a procedural motion, and all the Greens have done, by their actions, is conflate the substantive issue with a procedural motion. We should focus on the procedural motion, which the opposition will be supporting, and then deal with the substantive motion at the appropriate time. This is nothing more than plain grandstanding by the Greens and others in the chamber. Let's respect the conventions of this chamber. All the Greens are doing at the moment is drawing light on the fact they're an activist party that has got no respect for the conventions of this chamber. The opposition does, and I'm sure the government does too. We should respect those conventions and deal with the procedural matter before us.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the Senate for the opportunity to speak. I support the comments made by Senator Ruston.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course you do!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's very helpful, Senator Faruqi, as usual! The point is that Senator Hanson approached people in this chamber a couple of days ago—which is the traditional way and the custom and practice in this place if you would like to table a document, whether you agree with it or not. The approach is that you come to representatives of groups within the parliament, provide those documents and allow for time for consideration. We were going to give leave for those documents to be tabled, not for speaking to them. Our view was that it was appropriate that a member had sought to table documents, and those documents could be tabled and we could move on. That does not mean that in any way we support what Senator Hanson has been corresponding with the President of the Senate on, but she has a right to table information relating to that. That is why we were going to provide leave. By denying leave, the Greens have provided for a 30-minute, very destructive debate in this place that didn't need to happen.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It happens every day in this place!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, you choose to table documents from time to time and we give you leave for that. The way this chamber works, because it is a minority chamber, is that custom and practice allows for the tabling of documents.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is ridiculous, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the standing orders be suspended.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [09:23]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>34</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>14</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para><inline font-style="italic">(In division) </inline>Shame on you all.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Backing a convicted racist.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hughes</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You could have just let her table it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can we have some order, please? The tellers are having difficulty.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hughes!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, you're not helping me. I have two people counting.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Do you still use the Chairman's Lounge?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I use the Chairman's Lounge, absolutely, on the colony's money. The colonisers pay me to use it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I look forward to your adjournment speech at some point, but if I could have some quiet.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That documents relating to Senator Payman's qualification under sections 44 and 45 of the Constitution be tabled.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Lambie</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You are disgusting, Senator Thorpe!</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>5345</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023</title>
          <page.no>5345</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="s1353" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>5345</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a historic day. It is the first time that the federal parliament has had before it the opportunity to vote on a plan to legalise cannabis across the country. We're taking a big step today away from treating cannabis as part of the failing war on drugs and instead putting forward a model where cannabis use will be safer, where we reduce harms and we answer the growing community demand to just get on and legalise it.</para>
<para>I want to thank everybody who's been part of getting this bill, the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023, here today—the some 9,000 people who put in submissions to our draft bill, the thousands of others who have engaged with us and those who are watching today, either in the chamber or online, who are looking to this parliament and Senate to finally vote to legalise cannabis after decades and decades of a failed war of criminalising it. They want this to happen, and I want to thank everybody who has been a part of making this happen today. I want to also thank people for the trust they've placed in me, my office and the Greens to bring forward this legislation that has such wide backing in the community.</para>
<para>We consulted broadly, and, of the 9,000 people who engaged with our draft legislation, 99 per cent said: 'Get on and do this. Legalise it.' Do you know what else we did? We actually listened to the responses that came from the 9,000 people who engaged, and we made our legislation better. We fixed up a bunch of things to ensure that every adult household could grow up to six plants without a licence, because we heard that's what people wanted. We heard people wanted safe labelling. We heard they wanted an independent regulator. We improved our bill with the help of all of you, so thank you again.</para>
<para>It's likely this work won't end today, but let's take a moment to reflect on how huge this moment is and how many people have come together to help craft this bill—constitutional lawyers, long-term cannabis campaigners, law reform campaigners and people across the country who see the opportunity that comes with legalising cannabis, which is to radically reduce harm in the criminal justice system and create a multibillion-dollar legitimate and thriving industry. They are watching today to see what the politicians they've sent here are going to do with this bill. They're watching the Labor Party and they're watching the coalition, and they're wondering whether they're stuck in the 1950s or whether they understand it's 2024.</para>
<para>I can give you this promise: we will keep fighting. The Greens will keep fighting for this reform because we know a couple of pretty fundamental things. We know that cannabis use in Australia is extremely common—it's happening—and the denials we're going to get from the major parties about that fundamental fact will have millions of Australians shaking their heads. We know that the community supports cannabis legalisation and is asking this parliament to get on with it. We know that leaving cannabis illegal causes multiple harms—harms to our criminal justice system, corruption of our police and the criminalisation of about 60,000 people a year, primarily because they're found with a joint in their pocket. We also know that making cannabis legal can remove multiple harms. For the first time people will be able to buy product, knowing that it has met safety standards. They'll know the strength. They'll know it's not contaminated. They'll know it's organic, if it says 'organic' on the label, and they'll see from the labelling where to get help if they need it.</para>
<para>I'm excited about the model for legalisation that we have on the table today. It's a model for home grown, for those who want to. It's a model for community co-ops, growing a plant for safe consumption and sale. If passed, it would be the first time to put quality control, strength and labelling requirements on cannabis products so that people know what they're buying. I'll tell you one of the things that came so clearly in the consultation we had: people want to know—and they have the right to know—what they're putting in their bodies. That labelling and product quality are essential.</para>
<para>Today we could create a new sustainable industry, with thousands of jobs across the country. These are green jobs. Legalising cannabis will also have the double effect of taking billions of dollars away from organised crime, disempowering drug dealers, and it will allow us to put billions of dollars into public revenue for essential services, not least health and drug programs for those who need it. Let's be clear: any senator who votes against this bill is voting to keep billions of dollars going to organised crime. Organised crime is looking to the coalition and Labor to save its business model today, and we want to break it. All of this can be achieved if we just agree to allow adults the right to choose—if they want a beer, a gummy or a cannabis drink on a Friday night after a full-on week at work, or maybe a Thursday night after a full-on week in the Senate.</para>
<para>We recognise that there has been important cannabis law reform in the ACT. I remember hearing the cries of fear from the coalition, when the ACT did significant cannabis reform, two years ago, that somehow or other the ACT would become a crime mecca. I remember them saying there'd be party boats full of drug taking on the lake. What a bizarre failure that particular attack has been, because none of that has happened. The sky is still above us here in the ACT. Indeed, we have seen people, particularly young people and First Nations people, no longer being dragged into the criminal justice system. That's what changed in the ACT, and that's good. I recognise the efforts of Greens MPs and cannabis campaigners around the country that made that happen. I know that, without a national push, without us doing this here as often as it takes to make it happen, we are going to be waiting decades for piecemeal cannabis reform in the states and territories. We need a plan to make cannabis legal.</para>
<para>I have to say this: we're likely to see Labor and the coalition step up and oppose legalising cannabis. They oppose it despite the fact that millions of Australians want it. Millions more around the world already have access to legalised cannabis. Again, we see the Labor Party and the coalition coming forward saying, 'No, no, no, no, no.' They're like the worst <inline font-style="italic">South Park</inline> episode you've ever seen. They keep pretending cannabis isn't widely available and used. They keep suggesting that those who consume cannabis are criminals and should not be listened to. Almost half of Australian adults have tried cannabis at one point or another, and we're going to see the coalition and Labor come up and say, 'They should be in jail' and 'They should be criminals.' We say that law isn't us; that's what we say.</para>
<para>Labor and the coalition keep pretending the war on drugs is working and that we live in a world where drug use only happens rarely, like the occasions where one of their South Australian MPs is caught live on video or the endless numbers of coalition and Labor MPs who say, when they're caught, that they only ever tried it once. What a nonsense that is.</para>
<para>Government data shows 8.8 million adult Australians have consumed cannabis at one point or another in their time. Are Labor and the coalition going to say they should go to jail? Is that really what they're going to say? They're happy to call 8.8 million Australians criminals? It's a disgrace. That's why people are so sick of politics as usual, controlled by corporate interests and politicians with the imagination of a brick. My office keeps hearing from people using cannabis to deal with anxiety or pain or just to relax, and many of them can't get it through the incredibly expensive medicinal cannabis regime. We think they should have a right, as adults, to choose what they put in their bodies in a well-regulated legal scheme. If choosing cannabis instead of products from pharmaceutical companies is working for you, as it does for many Australians, the Greens say you should have that choice. If you'd rather have a brownie instead of a beer, of course you should be allowed to do that if you're an adult in this country. One day, we'll be able to sit together in a cannabis cafe, chill out together and think about the decades it took us to get there—maybe with some organically grown local product.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Tasmanian!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My colleague says 'Tasmanian'. I look forward to the best Lismore blue and maybe some truffles—and we will get this to happen.</para>
<para>Reflecting on why we need this, it's because the war on drugs is over in much of the rest of the world. When it comes to cannabis, the war on drugs is over. It has comprehensively failed. Every year, governments pour billions of dollars into drug law enforcement, making supposedly 'big busts' and prosecuting people for having a joint in their pocket. We know, when we talk to the police and talk to the security agencies, that none of it has an impact on the supply or price of drugs—none of it. Maybe it has a one-week impact on price, but the illegal crime model is designed to have endless busts, endless policing and still have almost unlimited product available. The police know this; they tell us this. The only ones that benefit from the current policy settings on making cannabis illegal are organised crime figures, who so desperately want Labor and the coalition to vote this down so that they can keep their crooked-market model, sell illegal, unregulated drugs and make super profits—and, with that, have money to corrupt police and to drive other illegal organisations. We want to end that business model today. Of course organised crime are going to be cheering the coalition on when they vote this down; of course they will.</para>
<para>A core benefit of legalising cannabis is stopping the damage to people's lives by dragging them through the criminal justice system just because they'd rather have a joint or a gummy than a beer or tobacco. We know that the current law targets the most vulnerable people in our communities. Who gets shaken down in my home city of Sydney, as they are walking about the streets, on possession of cannabis suspicion by the police? It's young First Nations people. It's young men in Western Sydney who the police target because of the colour of their skin and because they are vulnerable and often because they are poor. That's who gets whacked in the current system. If you're wealthy middle-class or upper middle-class, Daddy's got the lawyer, you've got the social power—you're not going to be targeted. The Liberal party know this. The Labor Party know this.</para>
<para>Currently it's individual consumers of cannabis who are most likely to be targeted by this war on drugs, and, of the 66,285 cannabis arrests nationally in 2020-21, more than 90 per cent were consumers, not providers—consumers going to jail because they had a joint in their pocket. That's who's going to court and getting a criminal record, with, often, their life trajectory turned on its head because this lot, Labor and the coalition, don't realise it's 2024.</para>
<para>The global data shows that the likelihood of any significant increase of cannabis use following legalisation is extremely low. What legalisation gives is a far more relaxed, well-regulated opportunity, where instead of buying the strongest weed from 'Crusher' down in some dark apartment, where you don't know what it will be, it's possible to drop into a dispensary and get a bud tender to recommend something that will match your mood, with strength and dosage information available, to safely consume at home. I can tell you what the Greens would prefer. But we're going to see the coalition and Labor vote for Crusher—vote for the dark apartment, the lack of regulation and the unadulterated strength. It's to their shame that they do this.</para>
<para>We see so many positives with legalising cannabis. We don't pretend the drug is without harm; we just know that legalising it will radically reduce the harm. We can see from North America, from Europe and from countries in our region that there are different ways of legalising cannabis, and our model understands the best evidence. We don't want rampant advertising. We want to get rid of big pharma, big tobacco and big alcohol and have them play no part in this industry.</para>
<para>We want adult Australians to have the right to choose. We're the party who thinks adults have the right to choose what goes in their body, they have the right to know what they're consuming and they should expect a parliament to treat them like adults. I promise you today that the Greens will keep working until this is law, and we just get on and legalise it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government does not support this bill, the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023. Laws dealing with the recreational possession and use of cannabis are matters for the states and territories. Senator Shoebridge's bill cannot change that basic fact. This bill is a stunt by Senator Shoebridge and the Greens, and it has a flimsy legal basis. The Senate committee inquiry into this bill could not determine with any confidence that the bill was constitutional. When asked to provide to the committee the legal advice on which the bill was based, the committee was told it may have been lost.</para>
<para>Apart from the glaring constitutional issues, there are a number of serious concerns about how it would operate. For example, the bill imposes minimal penalties for trafficking in cannabis contrary to the bill, including by selling the drug to children. And it makes to attempt to remove organised crime from the cannabis supply chain, imposing no character conditions on the persons to whom licences to trading cannabis can be granted.</para>
<para>As Senator Shoebridge knows, state and territory parliaments have considered and adopted various measures to balance criminal law and health care and harm minimisation responses to cannabis. Of course, that is a matter for them. It's unclear how the bill would interact with the complicated regimes that the Commonwealth law establishes for the regulation of pharmaceuticals, including medicinal cannabis products, and for controlling the import and export of both legal and illegal drugs. It's important to note that the government does recognise and support the need of patients and their doctors to access a safe, legal and reliable supply of medicinal cannabis products for the management of painful and chronic conditions. We continue to support the Australian medicinal cannabis licensing schemes to ensure that patients have appropriate access to safe medicinal cannabis when they need it most.</para>
<para>All Australian governments support a harm minimisation approach to illicit drugs, with an emphasis on harm reduction, supply reduction and demand reduction, as agreed through the National Drug Strategy 2017-2026. Harm reduction is a key pillar of the National Drug Strategy 2017-2026, and diversion away from the criminal justice system is a key method for reducing drug harm use. In attempting a ham-fisted Commonwealth takeover of state and territory drug laws and regulations, this bill would undercut all of that careful work. Also, through a circuitous and legally uncertain use of Commonwealth constitutional power over intellectual property, which includes intellectual property in varieties of plants, it would establish the Cannabis Australia National Agency, responsible for registering and licensing the use of particular strains of cannabis. Once a strain of cannabis was under the control of the CANA, the bill would attempt to override state and territory laws that would otherwise apply to the sale, possession and use of the cannabis strain.</para>
<para>This bill is ill-conceived, possibly dangerous and probably unconstitutional, but that's pretty typical of the Greens. The government will not support the bill, and I urge all senators across the chamber to do the same.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm actually very pleased that the Australian Greens have brought this private senator's bill, the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023, to the chamber, because the Australian parliament has just two days left to sit before we rise for the year and potentially go to a federal election. What this bill shows is the real danger that Australians will face if their worst nightmare comes true and they end up with a Labor-Greens minority government. It is a fact, as we stand here 2½ years into the Albanese government, that Australians are much worse off than they were when the Albanese government was elected, yet here we are, two days before this place rises, talking about the issue of legalising cannabis.</para>
<para>To be very clear, the coalition will not be supporting this bill. It is almost embarrassing, when you look at the drafting of this bill, that the Australian Greens thought it was a bill that should even be considered by this chamber. If you were serious, you would have had it properly drafted, which they haven't. It is a bill that fails every policy test.</para>
<para>Let's look, in the first instance, at the health implications. The Australian Greens are fond of saying—we heard it from Senator Shoebridge—that their approach is based on harm minimisation, and they have cited claims that this approach is health led. So, in terms of the health related impacts of this bill, let's have a look at what the experts have actually said. The Australian Medical Association does not support the bill. Why does the pre-eminent medical association in Australia, which deals with health issues every single day—day in, day out—say it may increase health and social related harms? In fact, this is what it says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This in turn may increase demand on an already overstretched healthcare system.</para></quote>
<para>That was totally disregarded but the Australian Greens.</para>
<para>Then we have a look at another pre-eminent body, the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners. They too do not support the legalisation of cannabis. They say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There is strong evidence that recreational cannabis is harmful, particularly to susceptible groups such as people with mental health disorders, young people and the unborn child.</para></quote>
<para>Again, that was totally disregarded by the Australian Greens.</para>
<para>Then we have a look at the evidence from the chief medical people in the Health Products Regulation group at the Department of Health and Aged Care. Professor Langham said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In terms of my own understanding of the adverse effects of cannabis on the human body, there are known issues with cardiovascular problems of the heart and pulmonary effects of the lungs; and also issues regarding acute use, chronic use and neuropsychiatric or mental disorders as well. There have been increasing reports of overdose and toxicity by minors with increasing use. Also, I suppose, there's the other perhaps less easy to measure aspect of use, which is the risks on driving and impaired driving.</para></quote>
<para>But, again, it was totally disregarded by the Australian Greens.</para>
<para>The Drug Advisory Council of Australia—I would have thought they'd know what they were talking about—don't support it, and they said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">An overwhelming amount of evidence tells us that cannabis use causes significant harm to people's physical, cognitive and mental health.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Cannabis use harms children, young people and families.</para></quote>
<para>Again, this is an evidence based position founded on careful, systematic reviews of the effects of legalisation. They actually have looked at this before. The Drug Advisory Council of Australia is very clear in relation to this policy, saying, 'The harms outweigh the benefits.' For an alleged harm minimisation policy, that position from the Drug Advisory Council of Australia is, quite frankly, an absolute indictment.</para>
<para>So the evidence from the Australian Medical Association, the Royal Australian College of General Practitioners, the chief medical officer in the Health Products Regulation group at the Department of Health and Aged Care and the Drug Advisory Council of Australia regarding the health impacts of this bill is overwhelming. Quite frankly, it would be folly for this Senate to ignore it.</para>
<para>Let's now also look at the crimes and customs implications. Again, they are just dismissed by the Australian Greens. The bad news for the Australian Greens is that there are some of us in this place who actually take our roles as policymakers seriously. We look at the health benefits before we decide whether we should or should not support a bill. We also look at the very serious crime and customs implications. The first point is in relation to the way this bill is drafted. It would actually override customs law. That's great news for Australians, isn't it! Customs law is put in place to protect Australians and Australia, but this bill overrides it. The bill is drafted in such a way that Australian Border Force officials may be unable to do their job of regulating imports and exports. If you want to talk about organised crime and sending a message to them, Senator Shoebridge, wow! The way your bill is drafted, it well and truly does that.</para>
<para>The Department of Home Affairs has specifically warned that it overrides parts of the Export Control Act and the Criminal Code, but, again, the Australian Greens don't seem to care about that. The Police Federation of Australia raised very clear concerns about basic road safety—good grief!—saying there is no nationally recognised and accepted regime for testing the impairment of a driver who tests positive to cannabis in their system, in the same manner as alcohol impairment is tested. But, hey, who cares? The Australian Greens clearly don't. They also cited submissions from the Australian Federal Police Association about the impacts of decriminalisation in the ACT—remember, the government here went down this path in 2020—noting:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Subsequent analysis by ACT Policing of roadside drug test results, road accidents (including fatalities) and related intelligence holdings have demonstrated a marked increase in the use of cannabis in the ACT since decriminalisation.</para></quote>
<para>It needs to be emphasised that this marked increase was detected through roadside drug tests. The Northern Territory Police have a view on this too:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The decriminalisation of cannabis would … result in disproportionately worse outcomes for Aboriginal communities when compared to non-Aboriginal communities.</para></quote>
<para>Seriously; you have to be kidding me! The Greens didn't properly analyse the impact of this bill on those who are most vulnerable.</para>
<para>Just to be very clear: police are clearly warning about an increase in drug driving and an inability to police that drug driving. That's bad enough, but on top of that this may lead to serious injuries or fatalities and disproportionate adverse effect impacts on Indigenous communities in Australia. But, again, the Australian Greens—and this is a clear warning to all Australians. All commentators are now saying Australia is heading to a minority government. The misinformation bill may be dead at the moment but that's only because the Greens didn't think it went far enough; beware, Australia. More than that, can you imagine the deal the Australian Greens would do with Labor to legalise drugs in Australia.</para>
<para>If you don't want to believe the health impacts, if you don't want to believe the serious crime and customs implications—we spend taxpayers' money in this place, so let's have a look at the economic implications. In relation to this particular piece of poorly drafted legislation, the Australian Greens cited PBO costings claiming this policy would generate $28.2 billion in excise revenue over 10 years or potentially more if the excise is set higher. Is it actually going to go past that, though? What is not cited is the part where the PBO repeatedly describes this costing as, in the first instance, 'highly uncertain'. That is not a great start for a piece of legislation that is currently up for debate in the Senate. They also say the actual outcomes may differ significantly.</para>
<para>What's more, the costings themselves are based on a set of assumptions which in their own right are highly uncertain. One of the PBO key assumptions is that 12 per cent of the adult population would consume about six grams of cannabis per week. Economist Professor Jenny Williams puts it this way: 'Basically, they're using every single day.' Professor Williams says this: 'In fact, the current statistics indicate that just 1.68 per cent of Australians over 14 years of age are currently using cannabis every day.' There is a big difference, I would have thought, in the Australian Greens' costings and the fact that between 1.68 per cent of the population and 12 per cent of the adult population in Australia will be using just under one gram of cannabis a day. It is a blowout of more than 700 per cent of people who will be using cannabis every single day.</para>
<para>Even journalists at the ABC reporting on this bill said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This could mean the Greens' economic benefits are either wildly overstated or—</para></quote>
<para>I can live with 'wildly overstated', but I cannot live with this—</para>
<quote><para class="block">predicated on a massive surge in uptake.</para></quote>
<para>Shame on the Australian Greens! I'd like them to explain how they came up with that $28.2 billion figure. Are your economic benefits wildly overstated, or, alternatively—God help Australia—based on the massive upsurge in intake?</para>
<para>Let's look at the legal implications. The Greens have added a clause that deliberately overrides every other Commonwealth law, past or future. Talk about an ambit claim; you've got to be kidding me! If they're serious, then God help Australia in the event of a minority government. There is an obvious source of concern when they don't know what laws they're overriding. What Commonwealth laws are being overridden? That's not explained. And why are they being overridden?</para>
<para>There are some other oddities in the bill. The first example is that the bill makes clear that a person needs to pay a fee for a licence to sell cannabis or to register a cannabis strain unless they are an Indigenous person or a body corporate controlled by one or more Indigenous persons. I don't even know where to go with that clause, quite frankly, in particular if we go back to the impact on Indigenous people.</para>
<para>Another example is they have included a clause that says that as long as a state or territory law is 'capable of operating concurrently' then it will not be overridden, but then there is another clause that directly overrides state and territory laws. Despite any other law of the Commonwealth, a state or a territory under this bill, a person cannot be charged with an offence related to possession of minors. I hope the Greens haven't looked at this, because if they have and they actually know this is what their bill does—shame on you! I'm glad we are debating this in the last 48 hours, potentially, that this place could be sitting, because it is a clear warning to the Australian people: if you think it's bad now, my God, it can get a hell of a lot worse with an Australian Greens and Anthony Albanese Labor government.</para>
<para>There are some other obvious questions. Which state and territory laws are capable of operating concurrently? Nobody seems to know. How does the bill deal with offences around distribution of drugs? Will the bill override other laws intended for the protection of children? How does it interact with laws around the distribution of vapes? Is the bill even Constitutional? That is actually a threshold issue. The committee report on the bill sets out an extraordinary direction on the Greens' legal advice, and it's worth reading from the report. The committee was led to understand that the Greens have obtained Constitutional advice on their bill, and it says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Greens' legal advice was provided by Professor Keyzer. Professor Keyzer gave oral evidence to the committee that the Commonwealth has power to enact the Bill …</para></quote>
<para>The problem is this: the committee expresses concerns that the bill is not Constitutional and Professor Keyzer was not able to produce written advice. He suggested he may have lost it. Is that some type of weird joke? Seriously! Constitutional advice and you think you've lost it? Just go to your computer or download it. Or don't you have it? He also said he was not aware of any other academic or Constitutional lawyer that had taken the same view. You have got to be kidding me! The bill is flawed. It is ideology masquerading as economic policy. It is sloppy, it is harmful and it should not be passed by the Senate. But I'm so glad we're debating it, because if you think it's bad now, under Albanese and the Greens it's going to get a hell of a lot worse.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There's much in the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023 which would make the regulatory environment for cannabis in Australia much, much fairer, so I thank Senator Shoebridge for bringing this bill before the Senate. I feel very pleased to speak, excited about some things and disappointed about others. For too long, the government of the day, both Liberal and Labor, have acted to defend the pharmaceutical state from the competition that medical cannabis represents. Indeed, our regulatory body, the Therapeutic Goods Administration, is funded from the pharmaceutical industry that it purports to regulate. The result is regulatory capture.</para>
<para>In recent years the Therapeutic Goods Administration, the TGA, has taken decisions that defy logic and that breach integrity—decisions that have placed 90 per cent of Australian adults at great risk of harm and death, decisions that have led to excess deaths it refuses to address, because the cause is the TGA and our health authorities. The TGA is a failed experiment; that is abundantly clear. It's time to shut down the TGA and its apparatus of expert committees and agencies which act in concert to support the pharmaceutical industry to the detriment of the Australian people. It's time to return control of drug and medical device approvals to the department, where the parliament will be able to exercise oversight and ensure accountability and transparency, which are sadly missing with the TGA.</para>
<para>The department can be downsized. Health is the state responsibility. Centralised regulation of drugs in the hands of the Commonwealth makes sense, and the states should be charged the cost of doing it or do it themselves, as they used to. Cannabis was removed from medical options in Australia following the Menzies government's passage of the National Health Act 1953. This legislation placed the British Pharmacopoeia as the primary source of standards for drugs in Australia. Cannabis was a stalwart of pharmacopoeia. In 2024 the only pharmacopoeia that still includes medicinal cannabis is the European version. My point is that cannabis was widely used and accepted as a legitimate medical option across a wide range of profiles for a wide range of conditions. Without a doubt, pharmaceuticals have been a boon for modern society in many ways, although for many people modern pharmaceuticals don't work, or the side effects can exceed the benefit. There's a simple reason for this: medical cannabis has thousands of versions, with different combinations of cannabinoids, terpenes, flavonoids, steroids and other elements of the plant. There are thousands of elements. The Australian cannabis cultivar repository has almost 1,000 live cultivars of cannabis and is adding more all the time.</para>
<para>The significance of this is that it allows a patient, under the right guidance, to match their strain of cannabis—known as the profile—to the condition that they have. Modern pharmaceuticals employ and promote the opposite approach, matching a pharmaceutical product to a condition—one size fits all, if you like. That's not the way health should be. But both approaches should be available to the Australian people.</para>
<para>I know the government and the opposition will point to the number of prescriptions written under the pathway scheme for medical cannabis and use that to mislead the public about the success of the current system. Before they make that ill-informed statement, I ask for an answer to the question the TGA refuses to answer: how many people who received a prescription for medical cannabis actually filled it? I'll ask that again: how many people who received a prescription for medical cannabis actually filled it? My office is hearing from patients who could not afford the prescription, who could not find a chemist to fill it—often because supply was not available—and who paid out big money to get supply that was stale or even mouldy. I want to know how many people who used a medical cannabis product then suffered a side effect. I received a response to a question on notice around this last year. The answer, though, did not differentiate between legal and illegal supply.</para>
<para>So many people have trouble with price or availability and they fill their prescription on the black market. Some of the black-market players run rings around the quality of the legal supply, and many others do not. On the volume of prescriptions written, though not necessarily filled, the rate of harm from medical cannabis is substantially below the rate of harm for many pharmaceutical drugs. Yet cannabis has not been embraced as an alternative treatment. It used to be the leading medicine in the medical almanac in the 1930s in America; it was No. 1. So why hasn't it been embraced? Why has it been knocked out? Money talks.</para>
<para>Restrictions to medical cannabis are more than directly regulatory. Other subtle hurdles make it difficult to access and use affordably, and that's to the detriment of Australians' health. Cannabis will never be approved because the cost of navigating the TGA system is so high that no cannabis supplier can afford it. The Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023 contains a new regulator which could function as a unit with the department. The Cannabis Australia National Agency, CANA, would employ people who know the plant and who know how it should and should not be used. That's a blessing. CANA would set standards for use, sale, promotion, production and importation without the need for a sponsor. CANA could work with the department to understand the supply needs of the pathway scheme to issue formal guidance on profile and volume until such time as the industry develop the critical mass to do that themselves. This solves the pathways scheme's biggest hurdle: the supply is patchy and the quality is often rubbish. CANA would license strains of cannabis and issue guidance for use through a new agency. I suggest the Greens could have used the existing Australian cannabis register, although that's a small point. Regulation is necessary. Some of these insane new varieties of cannabis coming out of the United States have THC levels above 30 per cent. The cannabis that came to Australia during the Vietnam War was only three per cent THC. Over 30 per cent THC is insane, though perhaps useful for palliative care at best.</para>
<para>At this point, One Nation and the Greens diverge. The bill allows home cultivation of six plants. One Nation cannot support home grow. There is a qualification here: our opposition to home grow can exist only if Australians have access to safe, cheap, tested, licensed and accessible product, with a prescription from a doctor or nurse practitioner filled through a chemist or other suitable agent and supplied on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme, the PBS. One Nation introduced a bill which would have done just that, and it was roasted, including by the Greens, can I say. In an interesting example of karma, their bill met the same fate.</para>
<para>The German government tried for two years, through 2022 and 2023, to introduce legislation which was similar to mine—sensible down-regulation of cannabis. They spent two years fighting entrenched interests, their own department and the Bundestag, the German parliament, and then lost patience. In a decision which could be characterised as 'Stuff the lot of you', the government simply legalised cannabis. That came into effect on 1 April this year. I'm pleased to inform the Senate that, in a country which is directly comparable to our country, Australia, legalised cannabis hasn't caused the world to end. In fact, nothing harmful has happened. This was the same result in the Australian Capital Territory, which allowed home grow three years ago with the same result. No harm happened. In fact, nothing happened. And that is a problem. Legalising cannabis is supposed to help people treat medical conditions, reduce drug and alcohol addiction, reduce the presence of organised crime and chill. None of that appears to have occurred. Homegrown appeals to the small number of Australians within the cannabis community who know what they are doing and who have the land to home grow. For most Australians, regulated supply works better. At this point in the development of cannabis in Australia, regulated supply will help more Australians than home grow will. I'll say that again. At this point in the development of cannabis, which is continuing, in Australia, regulated supply will help more Australians than will home grow.</para>
<para>The cannabis community makes a mistake that I find quite frustrating. They judge the plant on the basis of their experience and knowledge. They advocate for open grow and use like it were nothing more than a herb. It's not just a herb. As I said earlier, there are 1,000 different profiles, and that number is increasing. How does an average Australian, a typical Australian, with no or limited knowledge know which one is right, how to grow it properly, how to prepare it properly and how to store and use it correctly? A typical Australian doesn't know that, and that suggests smoking the plant, which One Nation suggests is the worst way to take medicinal cannabis. The most scientific, the most accurate and the safest is to purchase a cannabis vaping solution and vape it. But I won't go there further today.</para>
<para>The other aspect of the bill One Nation cannot accept is the fines and jail sentences for minor breaches of the regulations. Seriously, six months in jail and 200 penalties earned, which is $36,000? On the other hand, children under 18 get off without a penalty at all. I get that the Greens are trying to raise the age of criminal responsibility, but a 17-year-old who starts a business growing and selling cannabis gets no penalty at all. One Nation questions that. This has not been thought through properly.</para>
<para>Let me finish with a warning and an invitation. Increasingly, One Nation is tending to the German response. If you won't allow sensible regulation, then no regulation it is. We need sensible regulation. One Nation is prepared to engage with the government and others across the Senate to achieve a sensible regulation of cannabis, including on the PBS. We continue to listen to the community, to the people, Queensland and Australia, because we want to achieve a sensible regulation of cannabis including on the PBS.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the outset, I would like to congratulate members of the committee who looked into this piece of legislation, the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023, for their thoughtful contributions and analysis of this issue, which is clearly something of great interest to many Australians. I think we just heard one of those thoughtful contributions from Senator Roberts, who engaged with particular diligence in relation to the committee inquiry. I think Senator Shoebridge's sincerity in terms of bringing this legislation forward was clearly evident—in particular, his concern about young Australians who end up with criminal records and go through the criminal justice system as a result of the use of cannabis. From my perspective, I thought this was quite a useful debate and inquiry, and I learnt many things from engaging in the process.</para>
<para>At the outset I'd like to say very clearly that I support the regulated medicinal use of cannabis. There was much evidence received by the inquiry that, at this point in time, people who believe they have indicated medical uses for cannabis are having trouble getting prescriptions filled. There are the logistical issues Senator Roberts mentioned, and also the cost. That is something which the government should look at. In terms of certain medical applications, there is a very legitimate demand for cannabis. I think the government and, indeed, the opposition should consider some of the barriers which were mentioned and raised in evidence during the course of the inquiry, in terms of people who go and see a qualified medical professional and obtain a regulated product. That's absolutely something we should look at.</para>
<para>However, to everyone listening to this debate: if you know someone, a young person, entering their formative years—based on the evidence we received from medical professionals, it is not a good idea to use cannabis or marijuana for recreational use. I know some people will disagree with me; I recognise that. However, the medical evidence is clear that there will be a small proportion of people who suffer catastrophic side effects from the use of cannabis and marijuana, and it will be hugely damaging to their lives. For those young people who have not gone down the path of using cannabis or marijuana, and where it is not indicated for particular medical purposes, it is simply not a good idea to go down this path. The medical evidence received from experts who've studied the issue across numerous jurisdictions over many years is quite clear: it is not a good idea.</para>
<para>It does concern me when remarks are made, as Senator Shoebridge did in his contribution, which underplay those potentially devastating impacts, especially on young people, in terms of potential addiction and potential mental illness impacts. People need to be aware that there can be devastating health impacts from the use of cannabis. The evidence suggests that perhaps up to 10 per cent of people who go down the path of using cannabis for recreational purposes will suffer those devastating impacts, and that is of deep concern.</para>
<para>I want to address a few points which have been touched upon in the debate. The first is in relation to organised crime. We should be very clear that the evidence from overseas is to the effect that regulating the recreational use of cannabis and marijuana does not deal with the organised crime issue. We have the benefit in this place of looking at the lived experience in other jurisdictions, and I'll refer to two of them. The first is Canada. I want to quote from a study which I refer to in my additional comments, in paragraph 1.25, <inline font-style="italic">Clearing the smoke: insights into Canada</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic">s illicit cannabis market</inline>. It's the study of the Canadian market, which involved data sourced from 624 legal private recreational cannabis stores and 57 illicit online stores between May and June 2023, so this is quite contemporary data. The estimate for illicit players' share of the market ranged from 25 per cent to 52 per cent. The illicit market, which is predominantly organised crime, accounts for somewhere between—and we don't know—25 per cent and 52 per cent of the Canadian market.</para>
<para>If we look at California, which is a very instructive example of how organised crime—because of the cost differential between those who produce a licensed, regulated product and pay tax, as opposed to those who produce illegally without having to pay the tax and without having to meet the regulation et cetera, that differential leads again to an organised crime, illicit market. The evidence is clear. The <inline font-style="italic">L</inline><inline font-style="italic">os </inline><inline font-style="italic">A</inline><inline font-style="italic">ngeles</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Times</inline> has run a series of articles with respect to the involvement of organised crime in the Californian cannabis market. One of the interesting things from the Californian experience is that a lot of the people who were pushing for the legalisation and regulation of the recreational market eventually were pushed out of participating in that very market by organised crime. We see echoes of that in terms of the tobacco market in Australia because of the cost differential between what organised crime can produce a product for on the illicit market, as opposed to a legal, regulated product. That is where the opportunity is for organised crime.</para>
<para>I want to quote to you from an article in the <inline font-style="italic">L</inline><inline font-style="italic">os </inline><inline font-style="italic">A</inline><inline font-style="italic">ngeles</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Times</inline>, published on 30 January 2024. It's from this year. It says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"The plague is the black market of marijuana and certainly cartel activity, and a number of victims are out there," Sheriff Shannon Dicus said.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A Times investigation last year uncovered the proliferation of illegal cannabis in California after the passage of Proposition 64, which legalized the recreational use of marijuana in the state. Although the 2016 legislation promised voters—</para></quote>
<para>just as Senator Shoebridge indicates—</para>
<quote><para class="block">that the legal market would hobble illegal trade and its associated violence, there has been a surge in the black market.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Growers at illegal sites can avoid the expensive licensing fees and regulatory costs associated with legal farms. Violence is a looming threat at these operations, authorities said, because illicit harvests yield huge quantities of cash to operators who can't use banks or law enforcement for protection.</para></quote>
<para>That is what's happening on the ground in California. The issue of organised crime, the illicit market, has not been solved by these reforms that were undertaken in California. And we have no reason to expect, especially when we see Australia's experience with the illicit tobacco market, different results in Australia. I sincerely do not believe that Senator Shoebridge's private member's bill would be a panacea in terms of dealing with organised crime.</para>
<para>The last issue I'd like to touch upon, and this is something I did look into, is whether or not changing the system in the direction Senator Shoebridge advocates would actually lead to an increase in usage. This was debated during the course of the inquiry. I want to refer everyone to this article—and you can undertake this analysis yourself—which was issued by the National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre at the University of New South Wales. I'll refer to it as the Weatherburn article. There were some interesting statistics that came out of that article. It looked at the responses of Australians when they were asked: if there was a legal recreational market, would you use cannabis if you weren't currently using it, or would you increase your usage? Australians who responded to that survey said they would actually use cannabis even though they weren't currently using it, or they would increase their usage. That's what the people in the prospective market are saying.</para>
<para>Following their analysis of those survey results—and, again, people can have a look at this article themselves and make up their own minds—this is what these experts estimated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… 4.2% of the population aged 14 and over … who have never tried cannabis before would try it, if use of the drug were made legal, while 2.6% of the population aged 14 and over … would use more cannabis if its use were made legal.</para></quote>
<para>That's the analysis based on Australians' own responses to surveys as to whether they would try cannabis if there were a legal recreational market or whether they would increase their use. It says that 4.2 per cent of Australians who have never tried it before would use it, and 2.6 per cent would increase their usage. On this estimate, 924,543 Australian residents aged 14 and over would try it if the sanctions for use and possession were completely removed. Again, this is what the experts say in this article:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There is a clear relationship between psychological distress, age and willingness to try or use more cannabis, with those who are young and experiencing high levels of distress most likely to try cannabis …</para></quote>
<para>So vulnerable young people suffering distress are more likely to be in that cohort of over 900,000 Australians who would try it if it were legal for recreational use. Based on these estimates, over 1.2 million Australians would use more cannabis if the recreational market were legalised. This is what the experts are saying. This isn't Senator Scarr saying this. This is what the experts are saying based on the survey results of Australians themselves who have said whether or not they're more likely to use cannabis in a legal recreational market.</para>
<para>Finally, this is the most serious finding, and I think that, whatever your philosophical disposition in relation to this debate—and there are sincerely held views on all sides—this is the issue that really concerns me the most:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The current findings nonetheless have significant public health implications. Almost half (45%) of the population aged 16-85 will experience a mental disorder at some time in their life … While the vast majority of people may be unaffected by any change in the legislative status of cannabis use, small changes in the number of heavy users of cannabis could have significant effects on demand for treatment and drug-related harms. This is especially true—</para></quote>
<para>and I emphasise this—</para>
<quote><para class="block">when, as in the present case, vulnerable adolescents and teenagers are among those most likely to use more cannabis if it is decriminalised.</para></quote>
<para>When we have a situation where many young Australians cannot access the mental health services that they require and are in distress, need treatment and need assistance, I think it would be very, very unwise, on the basis of the evidence which has been presented to the committee, to support a piece of legislation which, based on the responses of the Australian people themselves through surveys, would lead to an increase in recreational use and, in particular, an increase in recreational use by young people in a state of mind of distress.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Scarr for his considered response. I have a few responses, but before I do that I also want to especially thank Senator Shoebridge for bringing the Legalising Cannabis Bill 2023 before the Senate. As senators are aware, we deal with politics and policy in this place. The politics of this is that the Australian people want to see marijuana, cannabis—whatever you want to call it—decriminalised or legalised. We've seen the rise of the Legalise Cannabis Party. They're now represented in three states: Victoria, New South Wales and Western Australia. They're running high-profile Senate candidates and they nearly knocked off One Nation at the last federal election. Australians are voting for this, and we need to listen. This bill is a pathway forward. The Greens have been campaigning for this bill for decades. We need to catch up with the Australian community on this.</para>
<para>I want to tell a quick story. I don't have a lot of time. I was recently at my mother's birthday party when she turned 80. It wasn't something I necessarily expected at my mother's party, but I got accosted by one of her friends. She'd heard that the Greens wanted to legalise marijuana. She told me a story about her brother, who's had mental health issues. He'd been a long-term cannabis user and had schizophrenia and other issues. She was irate and blamed the Greens and others for this. We had a really good chat. I said, 'Can you tell me where your brother gets his marijuana?' Of course, she couldn't. She said, 'Well, it's illegal.' And I said, 'So he probably buys it from a dealer,' just like a lot of young people buy it from dealers and will always buy it from dealers and, Senator Scarr, those who have predispositions to mental illness and are in psychological distress will buy it from a dealer or grow it themselves. We got to chatting, and I said, 'Well, don't you think we should take a harm-minimisation approach?' At the end of the day, they're buying an unregulated product. We don't know what's in it. In California, to use Senator Scarr's example, the government regulates it, and a big majority of organised crime was taken out because they were signed up to the scheme. The growers who were growing it illegally are now the government's suppliers. So, yes, of course, there's going to be an organised crime component. There always will be.</para>
<para>Interestingly enough, Senator Scarr, the marijuana out there that is doing damage—and I totally accept that it can be dangerous if it's used incorrectly—is synthetic marijuana, which is designed to get around the current rules and regulations, including roadside drug tests. Synthetic marijuana is extremely dangerous. It has 300 to 400 times the THC level of other marijuana that is grown naturally. It is a scourge. This is where organised crime has come in. We need a product that's regulated and works.</para>
<para>From personal experience, I'm standing here in the Australian Senate today as a cannabis user. I am on cannabis right now. I have CBD in my system because I am part of the legal scheme, and it has been good for me. I explained my personal experience to this lady, and I must say that I think I won her over in the end. I said that my lived experience of this is that I have learned one really important thing from being a medicinal cannabis user, which is that it's all about dosage, just like anything else in your life. You might have a gin and tonic or a beer after work, but you don't go and drink a bottle or two of gin after work.</para>
<para>Our cultural attachment to marijuana in this country is that so many people have used it for recreation. I don't have a problem with that if it's done the right way, but people are taking too much of this stuff. Kids are smoking ridiculous amounts. They're doing bucket bongs, and all the kinds of things that I did when I was their age, I confess. However, we don't have an adult, mature conversation about using this stuff correctly. That's what I've learnt. I have a very small amount of this. I work with a doctor. To Senator Roberts's point, I have changed my prescription three times since I've been on the scheme to get it right, and I've worked with the right people to do that. I explained to this woman that, if we had the right information and the right approach to this, a harm-minimisation approach, then your brother would have received advice a long time ago about smoking this stuff in large quantities. By the way, there is some uncertainty around whether schizophrenia is triggered by THC and marijuana products. There are clear examples of psychosis and other examples we have talked about in the committee.</para>
<para>Once again, it's our cultural attitude to marijuana. It starts in places like this. The stigmatised approach we saw from Senator Cash's contribution today is the problem. If we treat, understand and accept this as I do—and I know Senator Roberts and others do—cannabis can absolutely have benefits. I believe that is my personal story. If it's done the right way, then it can be good for you. It has so much more to offer. There are thousands of compounds in cannabinoids that we don't yet fully understand, and we're researching them. This drug has been used for tens of thousands of years by human beings. It has been part of a lot of cultures.</para>
<para>The war on drugs started in the US years ago. It has been a big part of the problem. We need to destigmatise it. We need a legal pathway forward. We need to accept it can have benefits and we need to educate people on how to do it properly. We need to get away from synthetic cannabis. We need to take the money from legalising it and put it into harm minimisation services. And we need to get it right. The Australian people want that from us. Please, Senators, look at this bill today and vote for it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bill be now read a second time.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:39]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Bilyk)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>13</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>24</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5355</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>5355</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I am asking for leave to table a document. Is this the right time?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can seek leave, Senator Payman. Is leave granted?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallagher</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're happy to work offline with Senator Payman and have a look at what documents she seeks to table, but normal custom would be that those documents are shown to party leaders or representatives and then we would give leave. That is the normal process.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So, Senator Payman, perhaps you would like to—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Denied!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We don't need commentary from anyone else. Senator Payman, perhaps you would like to talk to the leaders, and you can table it later on.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was just in response to Senator Hanson and is the advice.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, Senator Payman, it's not a debate now. If you want to talk to people offline, it can be sorted. Thank you. Pursuant to order, I call on Minister Gallagher to provide an explanation.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Housing Accord</title>
          <page.no>5355</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5355</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to respond to notice of motion No. 700, concerning orders for the production of documents Nos 563 and 676. Those motions sought the tabling of documents prepared by external consultants engaged to identify planning reforms that states and territories should consider under the Housing Accord.</para>
<para>The Treasurer's response to order No. 563 detailed the government's public interest immunity claim over a report on the grounds that disclosure of the document would have the potential to cause prejudice to future consultation and harm relations between the Commonwealth and the states.</para>
<para>In response to order No. 676, the Treasurer has again advised that one document has been identified as within scope. As the document had been considered by the Council on Federal Financial Relations, consultation with the states was undertaken. Several states explicitly objected to its release, citing the potential to harm collaborative relationships. Consequently, the government has again claimed public interest immunity in response to order No. 676 on the grounds that disclosure of the document would risk prejudicing future consultation and harming relations between the Commonwealth and the states.</para>
<para>The Commonwealth's partnership with states and territories underpins the federation, supported by $175 billion annually in federal funding. Releasing intergovernmental documents of this nature risks undermining trust, reducing the frankness of future consultations and compromising the delivery of initiatives like the Housing Accord. The government must balance the oversight role of the Senate against the imperative of protecting the integrity of intergovernmental co-operation. The Housing Accord represents a vital step forward towards addressing housing affordability, and our continued focus is on collaborative solutions supported by detailed reporting to the parliament. The Treasurer's public interest immunity claim is consistent with longstanding principles and necessitated by the sensitivities of intergovernmental relations.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the explanation.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to take note of the minister's response to these motions, which have been designed to ensure that there is transparency around what the government is actually doing in its expenditure of public funds on housing.</para>
<para>When you look at the main policy thrust here, this is ostensibly about trying to promote the supply of housing, according to the Treasurer. But what's happened on their watch is the greatest collapse in housing construction in recent memory. In 2018, the country built 220,000 houses. This year we'll only get 160,000 houses, which is the same number of houses as were built in Australia in the year 1989. So we are at 1989 housing construction levels under this government. It has been a disaster on housing construction and completions. As a result, I think this is a very reasonable line of inquiry for the Senate to be probing. What on earth is the government doing here?</para>
<para>The government has trumpeted its National Housing Accord. The Housing Accord is reminiscent of the Bob Hawke era accords, where the government worked closely with the unions to run the country—in some cases, to the benefit of the public; in others, to the benefit of the unions. This kind of corporate housing approach, which is an obsession of this government, has been calibrated to ensure that the super funds and other large investors could become perpetual landlords for Australians. It distorts the Australian dream away from being individuals owning houses to being the unions' dream, where the super funds own the houses as perpetual corporate landlords and rent the houses out to Australians, as they are serfs in their mind.</para>
<para>In order to do this, the government has provisioned $350 million to support the Housing Accord with the states but also amongst a group of other parties. According to the Treasury, according to Dr Chalmers's own statements, there are the parties to the accord—the states of New South Wales, Victoria and so on and so forth, and local government associations—but there's also AustralianSuper, Australian Retirement Trust, HESTA, Aware Super, Cbus and so on and so forth, and then BlackRock. So we have BlackRock and the super funds all in on the Housing Accord, all wanting to get their hands on the $350 million in availability payments from Dr Chalmers.</para>
<para>That is why we have advanced these motions to get access to these secret documents. The Treasurer has now filed two public interest immunity claims—and has now been supported by Minister Gallagher here in the Senate—on the basis that the government will not show the Australian public the details of these financial arrangements between the signatories of the accord. So the Housing Accord is a secret. We are not allowed to know how the arrangements are to work between the Commonwealth government and the signatories to the accord, which include BlackRock and Cbus. That is all a secret. So it is already a very murky business, trying to get to the bottom of how Housing Australia operates.</para>
<para>In September this year, the Prime Minister of Australia and the Minister for Housing, Ms O'Neil, announced that the Commonwealth was going to build 13,000 new houses through Housing Australia. As at today—here we are in late November—we still have no idea how that will occur. When we had Housing Australia come to the estimates hearing last week, they said that there were 185 contracts to be signed in relation to those 13,000 houses. How many have been signed so far? One, and 184 are yet to go. They already announced this back in September. This government is big on media announcements and huge on spin but very small when it comes to delivery and getting those shovels out. This is a shameful moment, because the secrecy around this accord where BlackRock and Vanguard and Cbus become perpetual landlords is a disgrace. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>5357</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>5357</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Chisholm, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the provisions of paragraphs (5) to (8) of standing order 111 not apply to the following bills, allowing them to be considered during this period of sittings:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Aged Care (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) (Consequential Provisions and Other Matters) Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Tax (Imposition) Bill 2024.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Midwife Professional Indemnity (Commonwealth Contribution) Scheme Amendment Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Migration Amendment (Prohibiting Items in Immigration Detention Facilities) Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Surveillance Legislation (Confirmation of Application) Bill 2024.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We wish to vote differently on some of those, so we ask that the question be put separately for the Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024 and the Migration Amendment (Prohibiting Items in Immigration Detention Facilities) Bill 2024.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the Aged Care (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2024, Midwife Professional Indemnity (Commonwealth Contribution) Scheme Amendment Bill 2024, Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Bill 2024, Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) (Consequential Provisions and Other Matters) Bill 2024, Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Tax (Imposition) Bill 2024 and the Surveillance Legislation (Confirmation of Application) Bill 2024 be exempt from the cut-off.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024 and the Migration Amendment (Prohibiting Items in Immigration Detention Facilities) Bill 2024 be exempt from the cut-off.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:59]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Bilyk)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>24</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K. (Teller)</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>17</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>5358</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5358</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7135" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>5358</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024. This bill amends the Crimes Act 1914 to modify rules of evidence and procedure that apply to sexual offences under Commonwealth law and picks up on exposure draft legislation originally developed by the coalition towards the end of the 46th Parliament during my tenure as Attorney-General. I am pleased to see the government is yet again building on the coalition's good record. Indeed, this bill is in the same vein as measures first introduced by the Howard government in 2001 to protect children in proceedings for sexual offences and is similar to legislation supported by the coalition in 2013.</para>
<para>The bill itself makes technical and procedural changes to the way prosecutions are conducted in the Commonwealth jurisdiction. It does not deal with the prosecutions under state and territory laws which govern the majority of cases in which sexual offences come before a court. At a high level, the bill does four things. First, it expands the range of offences in which courts adopt special rules for dealing with sexual offences. Second, it changes the rules of admissibility in relation to sexual reputation and sexual experience—and, subject to what I will say shortly, these changes are in a similar vein to state and territory laws. Third, the bill allows the court to make orders allowing a person's evidence about an alleged sexual offence to be recorded at a special 'evidence recording hearing'. It also requires evidence given from a child, vulnerable adult or special witness to be recorded if the evidence is given outside such a hearing. Fourth, the bill makes clear that the current restriction on publishing material that identifies a person as a child witness, complainant or vulnerable adult complainant does not apply to self-identifying material.</para>
<para>The four matters I have just spoken to are broadly consistent with coalition positions, so we will be supporting the bill. I say quite clearly that there has never been doubt about the actual intention of this bill. We have said from the very beginning, as the Attorney-General knows, that we, as the coalition, support the intent of this legislation. However, yet again, as with so many bills—in fact, I would say it is now almost every bill the Attorney-General brings before the Australian parliament—the sloppy drafting but in particular the extraordinary failures of drafting procedure and process that are inherent in this particular bill would, if passed in its current form, have devastating consequences.</para>
<para>I'll go to the Attorney-General's sloppiness in the drafting. When the bill was introduced into the House, this is what we said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Initial feedback from stakeholders is that these measures are broadly in line with criminal procedure provisions in the various state and territory jurisdictions. However, the bill is technical in nature, and a close analysis is warranted, informed by the expertise of the legal profession.</para></quote>
<para>It behoves all of us to 'allow the legal profession and other stakeholders to provide input through a parliamentary committee process' so that we can have comfort the bill is adapted to the same problem it seeks to address. It is a good thing that we did this, because, colleagues, had we not, this chamber would have come perilously close to passing a bill that would have made it impossible to secure convictions for serious child sex offences in a court of law. This is because of simple process failures, basic errors in drafting, which are, sadly, typical of this government, but more typical of this Attorney-General's approach to legislation, an approach that is yet again—more and more stakeholders are now saying—characterised by sloppiness, arrogance and recklessness. Once again, it is only through Senate scrutiny that we're avoiding potentially disastrous outcomes through the courts.</para>
<para>For anyone listening to this debate or, alternatively, reading <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>, it's important that I set out how deeply flawed this bill was when it was introduced by the Attorney-General, because it explains our position and our second reading amendment. Importantly, it is only through scrutiny from both the opposition and the crossbench—but unfortunately, yet again resisted by government—that we have, indeed, now avoided what would have been serious adverse consequences. I would encourage all crossbenchers to support the coalition's second reading amendment.</para>
<para>The issue is that the Attorney-General in this bill decided he wanted to restrict the ability to admit evidence of the sexual experience of children and vulnerable adults. This is perhaps a laudable intention in some circumstances. We certainly don't want children who have been abused to be traumatised by a court process. In fact, I would say no-one does. But, unfortunately, because of the sloppiness, there were basic errors. By accident, the provisions of the first draft would have made it impossible to prove a whole range of child sexual offences.</para>
<para>This is not just the coalition's position. This is the position of Professor Jeremy Gans, a respected and fiercely independent criminal law professor at the University of Melbourne. It is the position of Liberty Victoria, representing the legal profession in the Attorney-General's, Mr Dreyfus's, home state of Victoria. The concerns expressed by these groups are reflected in the submissions made by a number of groups across the legal profession who are worried about the Attorney-General's reckless approach to what a court should and should not be allowed to hear. But the problem isn't just the recklessness of the Attorney in the approach. It was also the laziness of avoiding an exposure draft, the arrogance of tabling explanatory materials that have been described as misleading or inaccurate and the riskiness of trying to shut down scrutiny in this place, as, unfortunately, the Albanese Labor government so often does.</para>
<para>Professor Gans's submission to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee on the bill is damning. It's too long to read in full, though I would encourage anybody who is interested in this debate or who is reading this speech in the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> to download it from the committee's website and go through it in some detail. Professor Gans sets out six different areas where the government's explanatory materials were actually misleading. That is quite extraordinary. But then, far more seriously, Professor Gans outlines how the bill as drafted would prevent the court from receiving evidence necessary to secure a conviction for serious child sex offences.</para>
<para>To summarise, the bill that was introduced into this place would have made it impossible to prove an offence, under section 272.8 of the Criminal Code, for causing a child to engage in sexual intercourse in the presence of the defendant. The technical reason is that the bill, as introduced, prohibited evidence about 'sexual experience' with anyone other than a defendant unless that person is a party to the proceeding. But sexual experience is not reputation.</para>
<para>Evidence of sexual experience can be—and, in a court, all too often is—evidence about sexual abuse. Often, the person doing the abusing is not the person who has been charged. In the disturbingly common situation where a person procures a child to have sexual intercourse with someone else but where that other person is unknown, courts, under the Attorney-General's bill, would have been absolutely prohibited from admitting evidence that proved the offence. Under Mr Dreyfus's law as first drafted, that person—the person who was actually procuring the child, grooming the child and, in layman's terms, pimping the child—would have actually got off scot-free. Similarly, in a prosecution under section 474.25A(2) of the Criminal Code, which is about causing a child to engage in sexual activity with another person using a carriage service, the prosecution would have failed under the bill that Mr Dreyfus introduced into the parliament for the same reason—that the Attorney-General accidentally made a rule that would have prohibited a prosecutor from introducing evidence necessary to prove the offence.</para>
<para>Under Mr Dreyfus's law as initially tabled in this place, the pervert who goes onto the dark web to pay for a child overseas to be abused is able to walk away in the safe knowledge that they won't be convicted. Unless the actual abuser is in court at the same time—which anyone who understands these offences knows does not happen when the abuse is online—the child couldn't tell the court what happened even if they wanted to. Again, under Mr Dreyfus's version of the bill as it was introduced into the parliament, unless they were co-defendants in a proceeding, people who aid or abet the sexual abuse of a child—and I put it to this chamber that that is possibly one of the most horrific crimes, if not the most horrific crime, that could be committed—could not be convicted under the bill. Again, this is a basic mistake but, at the same time, a staggering failure.</para>
<para>The bill that Mr Dreyfus introduced into this place risked becoming a get-out-of-jail-free card for serious child sex offences and sexual offences involving vulnerable adults. As has been put to me by people in the legal profession, this is, quite frankly, an indictment on the Attorney-General of Australia. I am not saying that he did this on purpose, and, certainly, no-one in this place believes those outcomes are desirable. But, quite frankly, as the first law officer of this nation, I think it's worse than that: the government and its Attorney-General did not understand the impact of their own legislation. It was lazy and sloppy drafting, and they tabled it in the parliament. The Labor government were too arrogant to run an exposure draft, as people had asked for, during this process. They chose not to consult sufficiently and recklessly decided to introduce the legislation anyway.</para>
<para>This Attorney-General was risky, pushing to both contain and limit the committee inquiry that—thank goodness—exposed the problem. I use the words 'recklessness' and 'arrogance' deliberately—ones those on the other side like to throw around. The piece of legislation that would have gone through had the coalition, the crossbench and stakeholders not bothered to read the bill, understand it and understand the flaws in it—that is the height of arrogance quite frankly. But worse than that, for vulnerable children it is, quite frankly, reckless and arrogant.</para>
<para>If this were a one-off issue, you might say it was a mistake. But the problem is because they are reckless about what their laws actually do, and because they are so arrogant that they never want to consult or allow basic scrutiny, time and time again we are now seeking mistakes in the legislation that is drafted—in particular, by this Attorney-General—that need to be cleaned up. As a first example, it was this government last year that got the legislation wrong and actually made it a criminal offence, if we recall that, for bosses to call their employees after hours. They didn't care. They put the legislation through and then we had to go and clean that mess up again. Secondly, in 2023 they got the legislation wrong and accidentally made children the subject of ongoing litigation in family law disputes. Again, we had to clean that mess up. A judge in our family law courts even found himself saying 'the express drafting of the statute conflicts with its intended purpose'. This is no longer a one-off by this Attorney-General. He just likes to table legislation that is sloppy. But the problem in this case is it would have allowed child sex offenders to get off scot-free.</para>
<para>The other example is the Australian Administrative Tribunal. That's actually laughable, because we're on the fourth bill to clean up the mess of the first bill. Thank goodness the Senate will pass amendments to clean up this mess, but if we hadn't, it would have been those opposite who introduced a child sex offender's charter, because that's what it would have been under this bill. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes with concern the unintended consequences associated with the first draft of this bill, which would have adversely impacted the ability to prosecute certain Commonwealth sexual offences; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) notes that these issues were only identified and fixed as a result of the inquiry by the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024. The Greens welcome the reforms in this bill, which seek to strengthen protections and criminal justice outcomes for victims-survivors of sexual violence, particularly women and children. We support the changes that will enhance protections for vulnerable witnesses, make sexual reputation evidence inadmissible, and place greater restrictions on sexual experience evidence. The way that this sensitive and personal information has been weaponised and used to perpetuate rape culture and victim-blaming is completely unacceptable, and every survivor knows it. I'm relieved this is finally being recognised and fixed.</para>
<para>We know that too often the criminal justice system is not safe; in fact, it's re-traumatising for victims-survivors. There is a reason the statistics are that only about five per cent of sexual assaults are taken to court. Victims know they will face trial again and it's themselves who will be put on trial, not the perpetrator. This bill is taking a small step to addressing some of those concerns, which I welcome, but there's still a lot more work to be done. I am pleased that the reforms in this bill will enable victims-survivors to give evidence remotely, to reduce the potential trauma of being in the same room as the perpetrator and allow victims-survivors the space to give the best evidence they can in the most comfortable situation for them. That is a good step forward.</para>
<para>But so much more is needed to make the criminal justice system safe for victims-survivors of sexual violence, and the Greens agree with Women's Legal Services Australia, who say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The failure to provide adequate protections and safeguards for complainants and witnesses, particularly during cross-examination, is a significant barrier to victim-survivors reporting sexual, domestic, and family violence and abuse, and engaging in criminal legal processes.</para></quote>
<para>We believe this bill should be further amended to completely ban personal cross-examination of a victim-survivor by the accused. In 2019 the Family Law Act was amended to ban cross-examination, and it's the same protection that deserves to be afforded to victims-survivors, which is why I'm foreshadowing a second reading amendment in my name to that effect. I note that the government has heard those concerns and taken that onboard. I understand it will be moving some committee-stage amendments to do exactly that, and I say thank you.</para>
<para>The Greens joined Full Stop Australia, Sexual Assault Services Victoria and Women's Legal Services Australia to ask the government to establish a properly funded intermediary scheme and ground rules hearings as soon as possible. This would involve providing broader communication support to complainants and witnesses in cases involving sexual violence. This is needed because, in these cases involving trauma, it can be extraordinarily difficult at the best of times to communicate effectively. We know trauma can impact the victim-survivor's ability to recall details or recount events in a linear fashion within a timeframe that suits the justice system rather than the survivor, and it can result in things like memory gaps and, sometimes, differences between accounts.</para>
<para>On that note, this is exactly why we need ongoing and regular trauma training for judges and for all of the personnel involved in the criminal justice system—so that the victim blaming and the rape culture can stop. We know it's still there, and we're taking steps in that regard, but that is precisely why we need a trauma informed approach. That training is absolutely crucial. I don't just mean one hour once; it has to be regular and it has to change the culture of the justice system. Victims have for too long been blamed for what's happened to them. It's exactly why justice isn't delivered, and we've got to fix that, as well as preventing the sexual violence from happening in the first place, through deep cultural change.</para>
<para>I'd like to reiterate the need for proper funding for independent legal representation for sexual assault survivors in criminal trials. Community legal centres and legal aid need far more support for the work that they give to people, and that funding really should be accompanying the changes made in this bill to make sure that these new protections for vulnerable witnesses can actually be used. It's great to have an improvement to somebody's rights on paper, but if they don't know about that change, or if they don't have the legal assistance to help them use the new rights, it's hardly going to improve their situation. The women's safety sector has been calling for $1 billion each year to meet demand for family, sexual and domestic violence, but one in four women who seek help are still at risk of being turned away because the funding is inadequate. This is not the first time I've said this. I've been making this point for nigh on 10 years now. The reforms in the bill are important, but if they are to help dismantle Australia's culture of sexual violence they have to be backed by full government funding of frontline services and legal assistance.</para>
<para>I foreshadow that I will move the second reading amendment standing in my name, but I just want to give a shout-out to the survivors of sexual violence everywhere. We see you and we hear you, and this parliament will try to help you. We know we've got a long way to go, but I'm really pleased that there's enough support in this chamber to make some positive changes today.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024 strengthens protections for vulnerable persons involved in Commonwealth criminal proceedings. The measures in the bill were developed in consultation with community stakeholders, including victims and survivors and their advocates. The measures also reflect the feedback provided to the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee and the committee's recommendations. I thank them for sharing their experience and expertise throughout the consultation process.</para>
<para>The amendments in the bill expand the circumstances in which vulnerable people who are involved in court proceedings as complainants or witnesses are afforded enhanced protections; make sexual reputation evidence relating to a vulnerable person inadmissible, and place greater restrictions on evidence relating to a vulnerable person's sexual experience; address barriers that may deter vulnerable people from giving evidence by introducing evidence recorded in hearings and allowing for that recording to be used in subsequent trials and retrials; and ensure that victims and survivors can speak out about their experiences, should they wish to do so, by clarifying that they may publish self-identifying information or give their informed consent to a third party such as a media organisation to publish that information.</para>
<para>These reforms better support victims and survivors engaged in the Commonwealth criminal justice system, whilst maintaining due process protections and ensuring that defendants continue to be tried fairly and impartially.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Liddle, I understand that you wish to seek leave of the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Liddle</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I seek leave of the chamber to speak on this bill.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The minister has already summed up and technically you'd only be able to make a contribution by leave at this point. The chamber is going to move to the Committee of the Whole, at which point you would be able to make a contribution. Given the uncertainty in the chamber and to progress the matter, I will put the amendments, and then the opportunity for you to make a contribution on this important debate will still be there in the Committee of the Whole.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Liddle</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For clarification, I did seek leave of the chamber. Am I being denied leave to speak at this time and you're asking me to speak in committee?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. To be clear, you were not in the chamber when the time for you to speak arose. I looked and there was no-one further wishing to speak. I asked the minister to sum up. The minister having summed up, we will move to the putting of the amendments and then shortly after that, if you can remain in the chamber, you can seek the call to participate in this debate in the next phase, which is the Committee of the Whole. I invite you to do that. Minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an addendum to the explanatory memorandum relating to the Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024. The addendum responds to matters raised by the scrutiny of bills committee and the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Kovacic?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Kovacic</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I note that I have been on my feet for a while. I want to note that Senator Liddle had just walked into the chamber at that moment. I wanted to clarify that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And let me respond. Had I seen Senator Liddle, or had that been brought to my attention, I would have called her at that moment. But there will be an opportunity for her to contribute to the debate—I'll state that again. We are now at the point where Senator Cash's amendment needs to be put. The question is that the amendment on sheet 2945, moved by Senator Cash, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:32]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator O'Neill)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D. N.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) in 2019 the <inline font-style="italic">Family Law Act 1975</inline> was amended to ban personal cross-examination of parties where there are allegations of family violence between the examining party and the witness party, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) it is time the same protection was afforded to victim-survivors of sexual violence; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to prohibit personal cross-examination of a victim-survivor by the accused".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment moved by Senator Waters be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:36]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator O'Neill)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>13</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. <br />Original question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>5363</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to the government amendments to be moved to this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>LIDDLE () (): The amendments are, of course, important. They ensure further measures to protect adult complainants. Imagine that you've been violated in such a way as a woman who's had a partial or even a total removal of external genitalia and been stitched up, closed up or cut for non-medical reasons. There are no health benefits nor medical justifications for that practice, yet about 53,000 girls and women born elsewhere but living in Australia in 2017 had undergone that in their lifetime. That's 53,000 too many girls and women who have endured bodily mutilation that they will live with their entire life. While the number of prosecutions has been minimal since Australia's first case, in 2019, the estimated number indicates it's not a small issue.</para>
<para>Imagine, though, that this is your reality and you are one of those few thousand women who have been trafficked or are slavery victims in Australia each year. In 2022-23, the Australian Federal Police received more reports of modern slavery than in any other reporting period. That's about 340 reports, and they included forced marriage and domestic servitude. Since becoming a criminal offence in 2013, forced marriage has been consistently the most reported form of modern slavery in the nation. We've read reports about the reality of exploited foreign women being moved around Australia like cattle to licensed brothels, motels and other sites by organised crime syndicates.</para>
<para>In addressing this terrible issue, opposition leader Peter Dutton was pivotal in implementing the National Action Plan to Combat Modern Slavery 2020-25. It was an important move because these women are made even more vulnerable because they don't speak our language. They have no control over the work they're doing and no control over clients or their health and safety. They have no understanding of their rights in this country.</para>
<para>After the trauma, imagine you're a victim-survivor who faces giving evidence in court. Again, English may not be your first language. The courthouse may be something that is completely foreign to you. You are faced with the fear of interacting with a perpetrator again, and your past experiences of institutions and authority have been negative. The process of justice can be as confronting as it is isolating. This is why the coalition's amendments are important. We should be doing all we can to minimise the ongoing impact the court process has on victims and to ensure it doesn't add to the burden. The inquiry into this bill received strong submissions and support of a prohibition on an unrepresented accused questioning complainants in sexual violence cases of any type. The coalition is seeking an amendment to prohibit unrepresented defendants from being able to cross-examine complainants in sexual violence cases, with appropriate provision made for defendants to be represented by a lawyer for the purpose of any such cross-examination.</para>
<para>Facing the alleged perpetrator directly and having the cross-examination done by the same person who caused your trauma is unimaginable. The treatment of victims-survivors during court proceedings, as well as minimising risk and acting in the best interests of vulnerable people, should be paramount to improvements of the Crimes Act. The treatment of victims-survivors during court proceedings is even more important. In its submission to the inquiry, the Youth Affairs Council of South Australia stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Victim-survivors find the process of the criminal justice system distressing, humiliating and traumatising.</para></quote>
<para>In fact, others have described victims-survivors as mere passengers in the legal system.</para>
<para>We should always seek to improve our federal, state and territory legal systems. In the landmark NT coroner's report released on Monday, the cases of the deaths of four Indigenous women and 68 others examined in the report describe persistent abuse. If the victims went back to their abusers, coercive control was a factor in almost all of those cases. These serious cases highlight an ongoing problem in the criminal justice response to sexual violence. All such violence can be preventable. Victims-survivors are, in many cases, too beholden to coercive control that's stopping them from escaping the violence they are facing. The coalition's amendments limiting the interactions between the victim-survivor and perpetrator in court will help reduce the impact of this problem.</para>
<para>Turning back to this federal crimes amendment act, an Adelaide barrister with nearly four decades of experience says the adversarial nature of court cases means there's never going to be a perfect solution in sexual violence cases. However, he describes improvements in Adelaide courts, with witnesses giving evidence remotely and courtrooms closed at that time. Affording enhanced protections to those victims-survivors involved in court proceedings as complainants or witnesses is important. Sexual violence is a denial of an individual to actively and independently make their own choices, to shape their own life and to control their behaviours and actions.</para>
<para>The amendment allows victims-survivors to represent legal representation—something that goes a long way to better outcomes for those who have been violated. Victims-survivors should have more protections than the prosecutors or judicial officers in sexual violence cases. Not only will legal representation provide protections; other information or advice for those individuals is considered and included.</para>
<para>At the moment, under the Crimes Act, victims-survivors don't have any free legal representation. This bill will, hopefully, allow those victims-survivors to get that representation they need. As the shadow minister for child protection and prevention of family violence, I understand the need for cultural change and unpacking the complex contributors to the prevalence of family and domestic violence not only for those who are Australians but for those who are in Australia. The amendments by the coalition to this bill will go only part of the way to improving outcomes for victims-survivors of sexual violence, human trafficking and slavery in Australia. How many people will this actually help?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, that was a question to you. Senator Liddle, would you like to repeat the question for the minister.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LIDDLE</name>
    <name.id>300644</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Given what I've just described, how many people will this bill actually assist?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Liddle. I was listening intently to your contribution. I caught the substance of your contribution but not the question at the end.</para>
<para>With these sorts of legal matters, whilst I am not an expert as such, I think it is hard to predict how impactful they will be. As your contribution said, and as Minister McCarthy, who did the summing-up for me in my absence, indicated, we think they are important reforms. I understand there is support across the parliament for them because they will be impactful. The work that's gone on in preparing this—and I acknowledge the committee work at the same time—has been important. I understand there are a number of amendments in regard to enhancing the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I commend everyone who was involved in the committee process that looked into this legislation. As I stated very emphatically in the additional comments I provided in the committee report, I strongly support the intention underlying the Crimes Amendment (Strengthening the Criminal Justice Response to Sexual Violence) Bill 2024.</para>
<para>One of the disturbing things, to be frank, about this process was that the committee received very strong submissions from one of Australia's leading experts in relation to criminal law, Professor Jeremy Gans, with respect to the initial draft of the bill that was introduced to parliament. I note that, following Professor Gans's submissions and submissions by the Law Council of Australia—both Professor Gans and the Law Council of Australia had provided their submissions, and, at the time of the preparation of the report of the committee, the issues raised by Professor Gans and the Law Council of Australia had not been satisfactorily resolved in responses by the Attorney-General's Department in a timely fashion to enable the committee to reflect on those responses and whether or not those responses adequately addressed the material issues raised by Professor Gans. The committee was left in a position where, in the report of the committee in paragraph 2.142, it said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The committee received evidence that demonstrated that the proposal to increase limitations on the admissibility of evidence related to sexual experience could have adverse effects on federal sexual violence proceedings.</para></quote>
<para>That was one of the paragraphs contained in the report of the committee and one of the observations made by the committee. From my perspective, these are very serious matters. The fact that we received such strong testimony and evidence from leaders in the field that the initial draft of the bill did not satisfactorily deal with the interplay of very complicated provisions in the criminal law raised considerable doubts as to the technical efficacy of the bill. I'd like to ask you, Minister, whether or not the government is satisfied and can provide comfort to the Senate that those technical issues from the government's perspective have now been satisfactorily resolved.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Scarr. I know that you take these matters very seriously and thoroughly in the process in your role on the committee as well. The government is committed to supporting vulnerable people who are complainants or witnesses in Commonwealth criminal proceedings. The bill builds on the extensive work of the Australian government leading a national discussion on strengthening criminal justice responses to sexual violence. The bill implements trauma informed measures that better support vulnerable persons when appearing as complainants and/or witnesses in Commonwealth criminal proceedings whilst maintaining appropriate criminal procedure safeguards.</para>
<para>I'd like to thank the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee for their detailed consideration of the bill and the range of academics, legal experts, advocacy organisations and others who have dedicated their time and expertise to providing feedback through that process. The committee tabled its report in April of this year. It made four recommendations. The committee recommendations are that government undertake further consultation on the provisions in the bill concerning the admissibility of sexual experience evidence, broaden the right to an interpreter to include vulnerable persons with intellectual disabilities or other communication difficulties and clarify the interaction of and different protections available to vulnerable adult complainants and child complainants. The committee also recommended recommendation 4, that the bill be passed subject to the first three recommendations.</para>
<para>The government accepts all of the committee's recommendations and is progressing amendments to give effect to those recommendations. Senator Scarr made two further recommendations of amendments to the bill, which are that the bill prohibit unrepresented defendants from being able to cross-examine complainants and provide additional safeguards around the use of audio-only recordings as evidence. The government accepts these recommendations from Senator Scarr. These are also addressed through amendments the government is bringing forward. Senator Scarr made three further recommendations that go to the information to be provided to the Attorney-General's Department, which the department has responded to, and further matters that could be considered by the Australian Law Reform Commission and how the government should respond.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I acknowledge the government has addressed a number of recommendations which I made in my additional comments, which I should say were made on the basis of submissions from technical experts in this area. I am very pleased about that. One issue that was raised during the committee hearing was the potential standing of a complainant to make submissions in relation to the admissibility of sexual experience evidence. There was quite an exchange of perspectives in that regard with respect to the agency, in particular, of a complainant, of a victim-survivor, to make submissions themselves or through a representative as opposed to the Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions or the prosecuting authority making submissions.</para>
<para>There was very strong evidence that was received from a number of organisations with particular expertise in this area. For example, Full Stop Australia submitted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill should require witnesses and complainants to be given notice of applications by the defence to admit 'sexual experience' evidence and legal standing to challenge such applications.</para></quote>
<para>Women's Legal Services Australia, in the context of ground rules hearings, submitted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In our experience, there is often a conflict between the interests of the prosecutor and the victim-survivor, and there is a need for the victim-survivor to have their own independent advocate who can act on their behalf in ground rules hearings.</para></quote>
<para>Also, the National Women's Safety Alliance submitted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… we noted how many survivors feel sidelined by the judicial process and the delegation of the prosecutorial service. Our members have collectively raised the need for Independent Legal Representation (ILR) to be made available to complainants.</para></quote>
<para>I go on, and I do this because of the number of organisations who made very strong submissions in this regard. The Rape and Sexual Assault Research and Advocacy organisation, RASARA, stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">While RASARA does not condone the admissibility of sexual experience evidence in any form, should proposed s15YCB be enacted, RASARA recommends that the Act should also be amended to include a provision which requires vulnerable adult complainants and children to be immediately granted access to free independent legal representation to represent their interests in the proceedings where an application for leave to admit sexual experience evidence is filed with the court.</para></quote>
<para>Also, I should say, especially as a Queensland senator—and I note Senator Waters would agree with me in this respect—it's important to quote Ms Angela Lynch from the Executive Officer of the Queensland Sexual Assault Network, who said, when I raised this with her:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Yes; it would have to be explicit because the usual practice over hundreds of years is that victims-survivors have no standing. It's the prosecution and defence. It would be a similar approach to counselling records and the protection of counselling records. There's legislation in Queensland and also in New South Wales that specifically allows the standing of victims to have legal representation and standing—it specifically says 'has to have legal standing for the judge to hear that perspective'.</para></quote>
<para>The Law Council of Australia for the record, in response to questions on notice put to them by committee members, stated:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Law Council supports consideration of reforms to permit representation of complainants in procedural hearings, in the absence of the jury, in relation to the admissibility of certain types of evidence about the complainant. However, attention should be paid to the impact of reforms on all parties to the proceedings…</para></quote>
<para>In response to this evidence, I note that the Attorney General's Department's officers were quite helpful in providing their perspective, and I would, for the record, like to quote the Attorney-General's Department's officers:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We felt it was a significant issue that would require more time and consultation before we would be able to formalise recommendations on that issue…The department is separately conducting a scoping survey with respect to a potential Commonwealth intermediary scheme. In addition, the Australian Law Reform Commission inquiry in relation to justice responses to sexual violence has also been announced. The position on this occasion was that those questions would be better addressed through those separate processes.</para></quote>
<para>So, Minister, given that context, given the number of stakeholders with particular experience providing wonderful services to victims-survivors, what is the current status of the consideration of that important issue, as to whether or not victims-survivors should be given standing, whether or not complainants should be given standing, to make representations to the court with respect to the admission of particular classifications of evidence?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Scarr, for that contribution. The ALRC inquiry forms part of the government's commitment to strengthen and harmonise sexual assault and consent laws and to improve outcomes and experiences for victims-survivors in the justice system. The ALRC has been asked to provide its final report to the Attorney-General on 22 June next year. Government will then consider the findings and any recommendations of the ALRC at that time. This bill, we believe, should proceed, as there are important reforms that will benefit vulnerable people interacting with the criminal justice system.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister, for that response. If it's possible, and I'm not sure whether you can be provided with more particularity by the officers who are assisting you in this regard—and I note that you haven't been intimately involved in this process. I note that. But I'm interested to know whether or not the ALRC is considering that specific issue of whether or not complainants should have standing to make representations with respect to categories of evidence to be admitted in proceedings of this type.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that that is within the scope of what the ALRC are looking at.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Another issue, Minister, which was raised during the inquiry—and again I'm just seeking comfort that, from the government's perspective, this has been satisfactorily closed out by the proposed amendments to the bill—was the need to prohibit unrepresented defendants from being able to cross-examine complainants in sexual violence cases, with appropriate provision made for defendants to be represented by a lawyer for the purpose of any such cross-examination. With respect to the legitimate concerns about the potential for unrepresented defendants to cross-examine complainants, is it the government's position that that has now been closed out through the government's proposed amendments to the bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Scarr. Amendment (6), which I believe deals with this, will introduce a new section, 15YFA, which will prohibit defendants from being able to directly cross-examine vulnerable adult complainants in circumstances where the defendant is unrepresented. The new provision requires a court appointed person to ask questions of the vulnerable person on the defendant's behalf. This is an important amendment, as it will ensure vulnerable adults are not discouraged from reporting offences, due to the possibility that they may be questioned directly by the accused. It will support vulnerable adults to give the best evidence and limit instances of possible retraumatisation, by reducing interaction with the accused. This amendment is consistent with the existing prohibition against defendants cross-examining child complainants in section 15YF of the Crimes Act.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I acknowledge the response from the minister, and again I would like to acknowledge the fact that that is a very important issue and it's pleasing that the issue has been closed out, it appears, through that amendment. Deputy President, I haven't had an opportunity to talk to the shadow minister at the table, but there were some amendments proposed by the [inaudible].</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I ask for a clarification on a previous answer, Minister. You mentioned the ALRC inquiry into justice responses to sexual violence. You mentioned that it would report in June 2025. Was that incorrect?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe I said 22 January 2025. It is January next year.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In response to your query, Senator Scarr, there are government amendments which have been tabled, and then opposition amendments which are resisting those amendments, which means that I'll be putting four questions to the committee, so everyone knows what we're going to do—that government amendments (1) to (8), amendments (10) to (13), and amendment (15) and amendment (21) be agreed to. Once we vote on those, because of opposition amendments, for amendment (9), it will be that proposed item 24C be agreed to—because each question has to be put in the positive—and then that the remainder of amendment (9) be agreed to. And then, finally, it will be that amendment (14) be agreed to. Those four questions will be broken out because of the opposition amendments which will be subsequent to the government's amendments if people move them as tabled.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much for foreshadowing what I was going to ask you to do. That's great. I want to cover off some key points from the opposition's point of view with regard to amendments. The coalition by and large supports these government amendments. We acknowledge that they're absolutely necessary to correct original drafting errors in the bill, and we absolutely acknowledge and welcome the changes to address Senator Scarr's concerns, as reflected in his additional comments on the report. We want to commend the work of the committee and, once again, commend Senator Scarr for his forensic work, which has led to detailed and specific recommendations which improve the bill. We welcome the changes that will also deal with the audio recordings and the cross-examination issues. They are material improvements to this bill.</para>
<para>We welcome, in particular, the amendments to items 23, 24 and 26 of the bill, which substantially repair the errors that were in the original legislation. They're not quite there yet, however, and that is why we're proposing further amendments. These changes go to an issue that is technical but important. We are happy to support the government amendments, which are necessary to correct those issues, but the coalition will be bringing forward amendments, on sheet 2990, that will make changes to the government amendments.</para>
<para>Our concerns, as I mentioned, are technical but very important. They relate specifically to item 24C in amendment (9) and to amendment (14). Both of these amendments, as drafted by government, are essentially for the same thing. Relevantly, they remove the court's ability to admit evidence that is relevant and probative, unless the evidence is of a sexual activity that forms part of a connected set of circumstances or, in the case of a defendant, relates to sexual activity in the recent past. The concern is that there are types of evidence that the court could be prohibited from admitting—evidence of non-recent sexual activity or subsequent activity which is not otherwise connected but which could be used to prove sexual offences against children and vulnerable adults. It's technical, yes, but serious. Our concerns relate to context evidence, tendency evidence and the admissibility of evidence about non-recent or subsequent offending.</para>
<para>In sexual assault cases, prosecutors will sometimes lead evidence about the relationship between the complainant and the accused for the non-tendency purpose of placing evidence of the specific act charged into its true and realistic context. This is done to assist the jury to appreciate the full significance of what would appear to be an isolated act occurring without any apparent reason and to establish a sexual relationship that makes the complainant's evidence of the specific act that is charged more likely to be true. If evidence about sexual abuse by a defendant is not part of a connected set of circumstances, the court would have no discretion to admit the evidence, unless it was in the recent past, and evidence about unconnected sexual activity which was not recent or which was subsequent to the offence would be inadmissible. In some cases, this could mean that a child could not contradict evidence given by their alleged abuser. We think that it is better to leave these decisions to the court rather than setting concrete rules down in law.</para>
<para>Similarly, in some cases, such as multiple-complainant sexual offence cases, prosecutors will sometimes lead evidence about offending which is not part of the connected set of circumstances in which the offence was committed but nevertheless shows an accused has a tendency to act in a particular way. The court should have the discretion to admit this type of evidence about abuse if it is probative and relevant.</para>
<para>Similarly, on occasion, courts will receive evidence about non-recent or subsequent sexual offending. This may happen in sentencing proceedings in the course of a victim impact statement. We do not want victims prohibited from giving that kind of statement. The amendments that we propose on sheet 2990 go to only those two provisions, and I commend them to the Senate.</para>
<para>I also quickly want to cover the amendment on sheet 2942. It provides for a basic review provision designed to ensure that this chamber has the opportunity to consider whether this bill is working as intended. As my colleague Senator Cash mentioned in the second reading debate, we support the intent of this bill. But the egregious mistakes and errors in the original draft legislation were found only because we went through a process of basic scrutiny through a committee, and that should be par for the course. What the amendment on sheet 2942 will do is require a further review after 12 months and that a report must then be tabled in parliament. It's a very simple, very straightforward measure which should be a no-brainer. I commend it to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move amendments (1) to (21) on sheet TM121 together:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 1, page 3 (before line 7), before subparagraph (ba)(i), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ia) genocide (within the meaning of that Code); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 5, page 4 (before line 18), before subparagraph (ab)(i), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ia) genocide (within the meaning of that Code); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 6, page 4 (lines 26 to 31), omit paragraphs (ba) to (bc).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 6, page 5 (lines 1 to 12), omit paragraphs (be) to (bh).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 10, page 6 (lines 10 to 17), omit the definition of <inline font-style="italic">child complainant</inline>, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">child complainant</inline> has the meaning given by section 15YAC.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 11, page 6 (lines 20 to 25), omit the definition of <inline font-style="italic">child witness</inline>, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">child witness</inline> has the meaning given by section 15YAD.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, page 7 (after line 13), after item 17, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">17A After section 15YAB</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15YAC Child complainants</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A <inline font-style="italic">child complainant</inline>, in relation to a child proceeding:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) is a child who is, or is alleged to be, a victim of an offence, of a kind referred to in subsection 15Y(1), to which the proceeding relates (whether or not the child is involved in the proceeding or was involved in the initiation of the proceeding); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) includes a person who was such a child at the time the offence concerned was alleged to have been committed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) However, a person who is 18 or over is not a <inline font-style="italic">child complainant</inline> if the person informs the court that the person does not wish to be treated as such a complainant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15YAD Child witnesses</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A <inline font-style="italic">child witness</inline>, in relation to a child proceeding:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) is a child (including a child complainant) who is a witness in the proceeding; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) includes a witness in the proceeding who was a child at the time the offence concerned was alleged to have been committed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) However, a person who is 18 or over is not a <inline font-style="italic">child witness</inline> if the person informs the court that the person does not wish to be treated as such a witness.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, items 23 and 24, page 7 (line 24) to page 8 (line 2), omit the items, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">23 Subsection 15YC(1)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "unless:", substitute "unless the court gives leave.".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24 Paragraphs 15YC(1)(a) and (b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraphs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) Schedule 1, page 8 (after line 2), after item 24, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24A Paragraph 15YC(2)(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "or", substitute "and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24B Paragraph 15YC(2)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "if the evidence relates to the credibility of a child witness and is to be adduced in cross-examination of the child—".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24C At the end of subsection 15YC(2)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (c) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the evidence is of sexual activity that is alleged to form part of a connected set of circumstances in which the alleged offence was committed; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) if the evidence is of sexual activities with a defendant in the proceeding—the evidence relates to sexual activity that occurred or was recent at the time of the commission of the alleged offence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24D Subsection 15YC(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Omit "The", substitute "For the purposes of paragraph (2)(a), the".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">24E Subsection 15YC(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After "value", insert "for the purposes of paragraph (2)(b)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) Schedule 1, item 26, page 8 (line 19), omit "unless:", substitute "unless the court gives leave.".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) Schedule 1, item 26, page 8 (lines 20 to 24), omit paragraphs 15YCB(1)(a) to (c).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) Schedule 1, item 26, page 8 (line 27), omit "or", substitute "and".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) Schedule 1, item 26, page 8 (lines 28 to 30), omit "if the evidence relates to the credibility of the vulnerable adult complainant and is to be adduced in cross-examination of the complainant—".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) Schedule 1, item 26, page 8 (line 31), at the end of subsection 15YCB(2), add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">; and (c) either:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the evidence is of sexual activity that is alleged to form part of a connected set of circumstances in which the alleged offence was committed; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) if the evidence is of sexual activities with a defendant in the proceeding—the evidence relates to sexual activity that occurred or was recent at the time of the commission of the alleged offence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) Schedule 1, item 26, page 9 (line 1), omit "The", substitute "For the purposes of paragraph (2)(a), the".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) Schedule 1, item 26, page 9 (line 5), after "value", insert "for the purposes of paragraph (2)(b)".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(17) Schedule 1, item 27, page 11 (lines 16 and 17), omit subsection 15YDD(1), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A recording must be made of the evidence given by the vulnerable person at the evidence recording hearing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1A) The recording must be a video recording unless the court is satisfied that extraordinary circumstances require the use of audio recording only.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(18) Schedule 1, page 13 (after line 27), after item 27, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27A After section 15YF</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">15YFA Unrepresented defendants — cross-examination of vulnerable adult complainants</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) A defendant in a vulnerable adult proceeding who is not represented by counsel is not to cross-examine a vulnerable adult complainant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Note: A person is not to cross-examine certain persons at committal proceedings or proceedings of a similar kind—see section 15YHA.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) A person appointed by the court is to ask the vulnerable adult complainant any questions that the defendant requests the person to ask the complainant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">27B Paragraph 15YG(1A)(b)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(19) Schedule 1, item 36, page 15 (before line 7), before subsection 15YM(4), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) However, a recording that is an audio recording only must not be admitted under subsection (1) unless the court is satisfied that extraordinary circumstances require the use of audio recording only.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(20) Schedule 1, item 50, page 17 (line 6), omit "physical".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(21) Schedule 1, item 55, page 19 (lines 15 and 16), omit paragraph 15YR(2B)(c), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) include the following details:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the name, qualification and business address of the practitioner;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the nature and duration of the professional relationship between the practitioner and the vulnerable person; and</para></quote>
<para>The Australian government is committed to improving criminal justice responses to sexual assault and strengthening protections for vulnerable persons involved in Commonwealth criminal proceedings. The government amendments to the bill follow the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee's inquiry into the bill. The amendments, which were developed through targeted, confidential consultation with government and non-government stakeholders, seek to address the recommendations of the committee and address stakeholder feedback raised in submissions. The original policy intention of the bill has not changed. The purpose of the amendments is to ensure that the bill gives full effect to that intention.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to check. I thought I heard the minister say he wants to move (1) to (21) together. I thought the original—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>When I was laying out the pathway, I was talking about the questions that come out of it. You can move (1) and (2) on 2990, but it will lead to the same questions.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I ask that the question be divided with respect to amendment (14) and the proposed item 24C in amendment (9), to give effect to the amendments on sheet 2990.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (1) to (8), (10) to (13), and (15) to (21) be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that proposed item 24C in amendment (9) be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [12:18]<br />(The Chair—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>Lines, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>24</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D. N.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Progress reported. </p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>5371</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>International Students</title>
          <page.no>5371</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've spoken a few times in the last week about the gross conflict of interest the shadow education and shadow immigration ministers have. Senator Henderson has been out there at events with Liberal donors who also happen to be migration agents. I note that the member for Mitchell, Mr Hawke, was also at those events. He, of course, was the minister for immigration in the Morrison government. One of these immigration agents is the secretary of the Rouse Hill Liberal Party council. Then we've got Mr Tehan, the shadow immigration minister, who was at a breakfast forum with migration agents the day before he announced he would oppose international student caps. It seems every member of the opposition who has responsibility for their incredible backflip on international student caps, whether it's Senator Henderson or Mr Tehan or Mr Hawke, has been outsourcing their policymaking to migration agents. Now, I don't—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Scarr, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Deputy President, I've been listening very carefully to Senator Sheldon. I think clearly there's an imputation of motive when Senator Sheldon refers to senior members of the coalition outsourcing their legislative responsibilities.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd just ask you to be measured in your language, Senator Sheldon.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Deputy President, just on the point of order, I want to draw your attention to the fact that Senator Sheldon was asked to withdraw an imputation he made in this chamber yesterday.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is out—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a continuing campaign of deception.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, it's not a point of order, Senator Henderson. I've asked Senator Sheldon to consider his language and whether there are imputations, and I'm giving him the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Deputy President. I'll follow that request. Of course, I don't know how much has been donated. Perhaps Senator Henderson could inform the chamber about that. But I should raise the question—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order on personal reflection: yesterday Senator Sheldon made a—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, but yesterday—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, it's very important, because he's made this point falsely accusing me of accepting donations. It's completely false. He's continued this campaign. He was asked to withdraw this imputation yesterday and now he's trying to do the same thing again today.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, I can't account for what happened yesterday. I can only listen to the senator now and make a judgement on what he is saying or not saying. He's uttered three words. I'm going to listen carefully to the senator. Senator Sheldon, you have the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Deputy President. I don't know how much was donated, but perhaps Senator Henderson could inform the chamber about that. But I should raise the question in everyone's mind: how much does it cost to get a core Liberal Party policy changed?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Senator Sheldon. Yes, Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry; this is a personal reflection, an imputation on me, that Senator Sheldon is continuing to make. He knows that there was no donation, there was no fundraising. This was a policy forum. I'm sorry; this is a disgraceful attempt—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, you are now debating the issue. The words themselves are not, in my view, out of order at this point in time. If further words are added to it then it may be, but I can't make that judgement at the moment. You are making that judgement based on statements that may or may not have been made yesterday, and I can't make that call—nor could anyone sitting in the chair. You're debating the point with me now, and I cannot assist you in my role as Deputy President. Senator Scarr?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With all due respect, Deputy President, I have been listening very carefully, and the particular concern I have was that Senator Sheldon here today—just now, not yesterday—said that Senator Henderson should be able to tell us how much was donated. Then, immediately following that statement, so there was a conflation of Senator Henderson being identified with that question, he posed the question, 'How much does it cost to change a Liberal Party policy?' Now that is an imputation, a clear imputation of corruption.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For the benefit of the chamber, Senator Sheldon, could you withdraw to the extent that there was any imputation made and then proceed with your speech?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>For the benefit of the chamber I withdraw on the Deputy President's request. It would be fascinating to hear, because I'm sure many people would be very interested to hear, about what the donations from the migration agents have been to the Liberal Party, and to get that figure from the Liberal Party or any other Senator within this chamber.</para>
<para>But today I want to talk about another legacy of those opposite in the education portfolio and that is their gross negligence and their management of the higher education sector. Their legacy in many portfolios is shameful, but higher education might take the cake. Under the Liberals and Nationals—under their watch—degrees became unaffordable for students. The coalition grossly inflated HECS debts through their Job-ready Graduates laws. They slashed funding for universities, making them more reliant on international students, and funnily enough that worked out really well for their migration agents, who happened to also be donors. The coalition made jobs in universities more insecure, and under the coalition, wage theft, casualisation and rolling short-term contracts became rampant. Meanwhile, pay soared for vice-chancellors and others in the managerial class.</para>
<para>It's funny, whether you look at universities or any other sector of the economy, when the Liberals and Nationals go in, executives' pay goes up through the roof and everyone else's pay goes down. Last week the NTEU released a report titled '<inline font-style="italic">Ending bad </inline><inline font-style="italic">governance—</inline><inline font-style="italic">for good</inline>'. It revealed the average vice-chancellor's pay was a whopping $1.049 million in 2023. I know Senator Henderson doesn't want to hear this, because she wants to run a protection racket for these extreme wages that have been paid. That means the average vice-chancellor earns almost double what the Prime Minister of Australia does. These people are paid out of the public purse—how is that appropriate? The average university now has six executives paid more than their state premier. Monash University, the worst offender, has 16 executives paid more than the Victorian premier, and the Vice Chancellor earns an incredible $1.57 million per year.</para>
<para>I'm not sure what university executives are doing to justify being some of the highest-paid people in Australia, but they aren't teaching any classes or marking any assignments or publishing any research. They're just about managing the universities. But, for starters, universities spent a whopping $743 million in 2023 on consulting professional services. Why are they earning so much when they're outsourcing their duties to consulting firms? Then you read some of the stories from people working at universities about the extravagance of management. I know Senator Henderson doesn't want to hear this but I'm going to say it anyway. One spoke about the refurbishment of the VC's office, saying the refurbishment was done three times in one year, with a spend approaching $1 million.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Really? They can't afford to pay staff fairly and can't afford to give them secure work, but can afford to refurbish offices three times.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Urquhart on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Urquhart</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson's constant interjections are disorderly.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Urquhart. Senator Henderson, please restrain yourself. Senator Sheldon, you have the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A worker from another university spoke about the party a new chancellor threw for themselves, saying: 'The university hired an event management contractor despite having countless staff with event experience. The installation was followed by a VIP luncheon for 80 guests. This came at the same time as staff were advised they could no longer travel, a hiring freeze was implemented and job cuts were imminent.' Another spoke about new fountains purchased for the engineering building at the university, saying: 'They're made of Italian granite which cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. Meanwhile, we have mass lay-offs and cuts to research funding. Our own mountains here are made of granite.' Finally, a Griffith University worker noted the university purchased the Treasury casino building for $67.5 million at the same time as a round of redundancies and restructuring was happening. They said, 'It seems the only way that you could realise the strategic investment in the casino building was by getting rid of staff.' This is the end result of the Liberals' and Nationals' transformation of universities. They used to be institutions of learning and research; today, they are investment funds with educational facilities attached.</para>
<para>The most immediate victims of this transition are staff and students. While vice-chancellors are living large, 68 per cent of people employed in the sector are employed on casual or fixed-term contracts.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As much as Senator Henderson wants to defend the chancellors, I'm here to say they should be held to account. If you had given workers fairly paid, permanent jobs, I guess that might have impacted the Italian-granite fountain budget! That's why they've got so many people on casual arrangements—to make sure those fountains can be built with Italian granite.</para>
<para>On top of the casualisation, there's the wage-theft crisis in the industry. According to the NTEU, the total amount of wage theft already uncovered at universities has reached $226 million, with another $168 million pending. When you put all this together you get a very clear picture of the university management acting in their own interests rather than the interests of students, staff and the broader public and national interest. The NTEU report says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">University staff constantly report to the NTEU the opaque, incoherent and inconsistent decision making coming out of university managements who have not acted in the interests of the community.</para></quote>
<para>One of the most stunning examples given in the report is from the University of Wollongong, where the Interim Vice-Chancellor—a partner at an advisory firm called KordaMentha—has hired his own firm to conduct a wide-ranging review of operations and people. This is at the same time that the university is imposing mass job cuts to save money. Another example is given of a whole team of staff being forced to attend a pointless workshop on how to use LinkedIn, only to later find out that one of their managers is friends with the person who runs the workshops and charges thousands of dollars to facilitate them. It's a breathtaking conflict of interest, and I encourage everyone to read the NTEU report, even Senator Henderson. She might learn something about universities because it's very eye opening.</para>
<para>We aren't sitting on our hands. Just this week, the Minister for Education, Jason Clare, announced the government would be establishing an expert council on governance for universities. This was a recommendation for priority action in the Australian Universities Accord interim report. The expert council will look at transparency and accountability processes, including the way remuneration policies are developed for senior university staff. Minister Clare told the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> on Monday that the council would ensure that 'consideration is given to comparable scale and complexity of public service entities such as government departments and ensure remuneration policies and packages are publicly reported'.</para>
<para>The council will also crack down on systematic wage theft against academics and lecturers and ensure that these public institutions are meeting workplace obligations—something those opposite refused to do and something Senator Henderson continues to talk against. I talked about some of the disgraceful examples of wage theft in this sector, but all workers should expect their employer to pay them correctly and fairly—regardless of what Senator Henderson says. The measures the Senate have passed this week, including the Universities Accord (Student Support and Other Measures) Bill, go some way to repair the social licence of the sector. The move to clean up university governance is another piece of the puzzle. The opposition should get their hand out of the cookie jar and actually start working with us and put students back at the centre of the university experience.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sheldon has just made the same comment which—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, he didn't. I listened carefully. He referred to the party.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, he said 'hand in the cookie jar'. It's the imputation.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, that imputation cannot be drawn at this point because of the—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The imputation is very—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, I'm not debating with you. I've made the ruling. It's done.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>First Nations Australians: Cultural Heritage</title>
          <page.no>5373</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak to the latest issues regarding lawfare that is being used against development, particularly in relation to places supposedly significant to Indigenous Australians, following today's article in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> headlined 'Inside lawfare plot to block Santos's $5.8 billion Barossa gas project'. The exploitation of Indigenous people and cultural heritage in this country is fraud, and it needs to be treated as such. We're currently not taking this issue seriously enough. This fraudulent conduct is being allowed to fester and grow. Those who miss out most significantly from this fraudulent conduct are our most marginalised Indigenous Australians.</para>
<para>We're seeing more and more projects being shut down and land being locked up because we aren't willing to call out this behaviour for what it is. The McPhillamys gold mine in Blayney was just one demonstration of this kind of fraud that this government is supportive of. A billion-dollar project which would have contributed hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties to the local economy as well as hundreds of jobs was stopped because of this fraudulent conduct.</para>
<para>Let me look to the Barossa project now. There's already Indigenous exploitation happening at the hands of the Environmental Defenders Office in the Barossa project. The Federal Court itself found that the Environmental Defenders Office had acted improperly with respect to Indigenous witnesses involved with this case, but now we have more evidence of this conduct. Today's story in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> is a further indictment on groups like the EDO who are raging activists, hell-bent on antidevelopment agendas. They are willing to fabricate and stretch the truth all in the pursuit of their ideological agenda.</para>
<para>Reports today note that the cultural heritage report which underpinned the EDO's objection to the project was not just independently created. Dr O'Leary has got a fancy title before his name. He's been to university. He no doubt learned all about Aboriginal culture in his university degree. He was the cultural expert in this regard. He was in regular contact with Ms Antonia Burke, a lead campaigner for Stop Barossa Gas, and they prepared the report. This doctor, who referred to himself as 'just a whitefella', prepared this report. The two of them devised a sea country map identifying sacred locations of Mother Ampiji and Crocodile Man songline. This map and the report were both sent to the Environmental Defenders Office lawyers for editing before they met with Tiwi Islanders. The reports today note that the cultural expert, Mr O'Leary, was open to moving the location of the Rainbow Serpent to where it seemed most culturally appropriate. Good on him for interfering with traditional Aboriginal culture!</para>
<para>Seriously, this is disgusting. This is a place where we talk about respecting our First Nations people, traditional owners of the land, with all the virtue signalling that occurs from this government and from the Greens, who purport to be the champions for Indigenous Australians. Ultimately, you can just make stuff up. That's considered respectful conduct? I don't think so. It's deeply, deeply insulting. It's actually personal to me because yirrikipayi / jikapayinga (crocodile) is my personal Dreaming, from Milikapiti/Snake Bay in the Tiwi Islands. This is happening all over the place. It works for the government when they want to shut down progress and when they want to shut down development, when they're in bed with their Greens coalition, who are deadset against empowering the most marginalised Indigenous Australians in this country.</para>
<para>Political correctness is a weapon of this government and of the Greens. They utilise the EDO for this weaponisation. They know it is wrong, but they're not going to call it out. They will allow it to continue. Senator Cox, who's mentioned in this article, should know better than to have any kind of involvement with people or projects that are willing to engage in this fraudulent behaviour. Too often we see people like Senator Cox and Antonia Burke full of feigned outrage about the treatment of Aboriginal people in this country. We've seen senators concerned about racism in this building. For crying out loud, this is the ultimate act of racism! They're recreating Dreaming stories for the benefit of environmentalists hell-bent on pushing their own agendas. They're not one bit interested in empowering the most marginalised Indigenous people in this country.</para>
<para>People like Antonia Burke, Senator Cox and others—they're fine. They're not living in the same circumstances as those Tiwi Islanders. Their first language is English. They've had an education. They can get employment. They can make the most of the opportunities that are given to them by this country. We hear a lot about white privilege. What about the black privilege in this country? What about the Aboriginal people taking advantage of their own privilege to benefit their agendas and to benefit the agendas of environmental activists that want to shut down this country so that everybody suffers? Marginalised Indigenous Australians suffer. The average Australian suffers. We're seeing it with the closing of climbs, like what is happening in Mount Arapiles. There is no care from this government or the Greens about how that's going to impact communities in this country. This is why we had to say no to the Voice. Could you imagine—if we had the Voice in place, this stuff would be on steroids. It's already bad enough as it is. This is fraud.</para>
<para>The Greens are the party of absolute pretenders. The government knows this, and yet it continues with its coalition relationship with them. They should be utterly ashamed of their complicity in this fraudulent behaviour. The continued funding of the Environmental Defenders Office is completely unacceptable, as we see their conduct in the background exploiting Aboriginal people and Aboriginal culture. It is in stark contrast to all the virtue signalling that goes on in this place and around the country. Why do we bother anymore with welcome to country, with acknowledgement of country, with paying respects? Blah, blah, blah—it means nothing. It means nothing when we see this government continue to fund the Environmental Defenders Office. This Labor government cannot say that it is in favour of progress or development in this country when it continues to fund the Environmental Defenders Office. The only people they're supporting are cashed up environmentalists. They say they care about the environment, and yet they want to wreck the environment with this race towards renewables. They say they despise corporate Australia, yet the Greens are well behind their cashed-up greenie investors. They're going to make a killing out of this government's race towards renewables, an absolute killing, while destroying environments at the same time. It's such hypocrisy. It's hypocrisy at its highest. I don't want to hear about claims of racism in this joint when the Greens want to support this racist conduct to allow the exploitation of Indigenous Australians in this country.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmania: Palliative Care</title>
          <page.no>5375</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If you're young at heart, the last thing you want to think about is how you're going to die. None of us will really know, as it's going to be different for every person. When it's my time, I'd like to know that my family will be fully supported after I'm gone. Yet, with the advances in modern medicine, we are living longer and dying at a much older age than we used to.</para>
<para>The result is a growing demand for end-of-life care—essential care for when all else has failed, including the very best of modern medicine. So who is there to look after our end-of-life care when we have a terminal diagnosis, when a person is in terrible pain and a family is struggling to cope? The real shining stars in this are our palliative care people. They are the people with big hearts who care for us and our families when there is no hope. They also care for families after someone has passed, to help them grieve and to help them take the next steps in their life. Yet palliative care services are under extreme pressure. They are struggling to cope. This time it's our turn to help them, and they need our help.</para>
<para>To keep up with the demands on palliative care, Tasmania must have secure and consistent funding that goes beyond the budget cycle. Yet the demand for palliative care is growing at an alarming rate. Why is that? What are the reasons? We Tasmanians are older than the rest of Australia, and we're getting older quicker. Palliative Care Tasmania asked Bernard Salt to work out what's going on and how it's going to change. He found the annual rate of growth in Tasmania's 85-plus age group will increase by 500 per cent over the next five years. People are living longer, and many will face growing health problems that will need compassionate end-of-life care. We can predict that as more of us live longer the demands on our health and care services will grow at the same unstoppable rate.</para>
<para>It's not just older people that need palliative care; end of-life care is needed for all ages in our community, from young to old. Diseases like cancer aren't picky when it comes to age. Palliative care can only work with proper funding. It needs cold, hard cash to meet the increasing demand for its essential services. It's not just about managing pain; it's about emotional, psychological and social support for patients and their families. I know we have a new Commonwealth funded hospice and respite care facility being built in Launceston; that's amazing. It's only 10 beds, but it is 10 beds more than we had and it all helps. Families get the care and support they need, and my community is deeply thankful. It ensures that some of those with terminal illnesses can live their remaining days with dignity, comfort and as much independence as possible.</para>
<para>Tasmania is just like most of our regional areas, where being able to use vital services depends on where you live and if you can get to where they are. The pressure on Tasmania's healthcare system is growing. It deserves real support, not hollow promises. We now have voluntary-assisted-dying laws in every state and the ACT, a change that has made us all think about end-of-life care. The debate about the laws highlighted the importance of proper palliative care. It also brought the hidden side of health care into the spotlight for every state and territory. However a person suffering with a terminal illness dies, they almost always need palliative care to have a good death. With proper funding, we can find out what works best and scale it up across Australia. By 'proper funding', I mean, secure and consistent funding that can give certainty to Palliative Care Tasmania—and I know they are having good chats with the state government at the moment. Then we can all have world-leading palliative care.</para>
<para>Regional Australia needs palliative care services. Its communities need mobile care, outreach services and telehealth support. People who work in palliative care are in short supply. They are specialists in a unique part of health care, and we need more of them. Seventy per cent of people want to die at home, surrounded by the people they love; less than 15 per cent get to do so. We need more home based care options that can ease the pressure on hospitals and hospice care.</para>
<para>Then there are the families who are left behind. Palliative care services address grief and provide wellbeing and bereavement support for families. Tasmania can fine-tune what works in delivering palliative care, with care that meets the needs of our regional communities. Palliative Care Tasmania has these plans in place and ready to go. It needs to know it has the funding to make it happen, and we owe them that.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Lord Prescott</title>
          <page.no>5375</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak briefly about the recent passing of the noble Lord John Leslie Prescott, Baron of Kingston upon Hull, formerly deputy leader of the British Labour Party and Deputy Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, and seafarer, trade unionist and transport tragic just like me.</para>
<para>I've been asked to make this contribution on behalf of a good friend who once worked with John. John is survived by Pauline, his wife of 63 years, and two sons. He was the eldest child of a Welsh railway signalman and unionist and the grandson of a coalminer. His mother was a domestic helper and the daughter of a union official of some 50 years standing. Although he later attended both Oxford and Hull universities, John didn't excel at school and, at the age of 15, left and trained in hospitality. He then went to sea as a steward and waiter with the Cunard line. While he was at sea, John won a number of boxing competitions and, notoriously, spent a night in the cells in Auckland. This was outdone when he punched a protester who threw an egg at him during the 2001 UK general election campaign.</para>
<para>John became an active trade unionist while at sea, taking on many a fight with the officer class on behalf of his fellow workers. In 1963, John became an official of the National Union of Seamen. He campaigned for reform of the union, for the interests of both British and international seafarers and for the ongoing vitality of the once great British merchant navy. John joined the Labour Party in 1956 and became the member for Kingston upon Hull East in 1970, defeating Norman Lamont, one of John Major's chancellors, by 22,000 votes. He served those lucky folk for 40 years, until he retired from the House of Commons to be elevated to the House of Lords, where he sat until early this year.</para>
<para>Having served variously as shadow secretary of state for energy, transport and employment, he contested the leadership and deputy leadership ballots that followed the tragic death of then Labour leader John Smith. John Prescott served as deputy leader of the Labor party for 13 years under Tony Blair, 10 of those as Deputy Prime Minister. John remains Britain's longest serving Deputy Prime Minister. Upon the election of the Blair government, he became secretary of state for the environment, transport and the regions. John led the British delegation that was so influential in the delivery of the Kyoto protocol. This was the period of New Labour, and it was John who was the bridge between new and old Labour, helping the party refocus its platform from one of government ownership and intervention to one that focused on prosperity and delivering services and outcomes for working people. Whilst John's wider role in the party was crucial, so too was his deft management of the often difficult relationship between, and competing ambitions of, Gordon Brown and Tony Blair.</para>
<para>In addition to his deep understanding and commitment to policy reform within the Labour Party and government, John also had a way with words. His former speechwriter Stephen Hardwick has recalled the joke John told while addressing a UK Labour Party conference, when he said of the ambitious minister during the Thatcher years, 'Michael Heseltine is the <inline font-style="italic">Kama Sutra</inline> of the conservative party; he's been in every position except No. 10!'</para>
<para>I'm told by Dr Warren Mundy that, when he was head of the economic secretariat of the British Labour Party, John, who at the time was Labour's employment spokesperson, had a deep interest in what the Hawke government had achieved with the accord and looked at how something similar might be implemented in the UK. John visited Australia several times. On one visit, when he was Deputy Prime Minister, John took time out to have lunch with the then Labor shadow cabinet, still keen to learn more about 'what you blokes do down here'. Dr Mundy tells me that John, having been confronted by Tory prejudice throughout his political career, once said to him, 'One of the things about Australia I love is that kids of railway workers don't get this bullshit.'</para>
<para>They say the most genuine compliments in politics often come from one's opponents. William Hague, the former Tory leader and British foreign secretary, said a few days ago:</para>
<quote><para class="block">John Prescott was one of the great figures of our political era—passionate, loyal, and full of life. I will never forget our many lively exchanges across the despatch box. John was a formidable debater, unflinching in his commitment to his values, and he had a unique ability to speak directly to the concerns of the people he represented.</para></quote>
<para>…   …   …</para>
<quote><para class="block">John's legacy as a voice for working people and a relentless advocate for Labour will endure.</para></quote>
<para>There aren't many people that can boast of leaving school at 15 years old, going on to become Deputy Prime Minister and ending up with a life peerage. Rest easy, comrade.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5376</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7239" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>O'SULLIVAN (—) (): In the mid-1930s, as dark clouds gathered in Western Europe, then backbencher Winston Churchill rose in the House of Commons and warned of the storm ahead. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Germany is arming—she is rapidly arming—and no one will stop her.</para></quote>
<para>Churchill repeatedly spoke out about Nazi Germany's militarist tendencies and its growing rearmament strategy. He also highlighted the dangers of Britain's lack of preparedness. Many in the political establishment and the media were alarmed by Churchill's warnings about the rising threat of Nazi Germany. Some accused him of needlessly stirring up fears, reminding people of the horrors of the Great War that were still fresh in their minds. Others said he was simply seeking to advance his own political ambitions in what they saw as the sunset of his days. History proved these critics wrong. Churchill would later call this period his locust years. He was right about Nazi Germany, and, because so many refused to listen, the world entered one of the darkest periods of the 20th century.</para>
<para>I draw this comparison to highlight the dangerous aspirations behind the now discharged Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2024, the Albanese government's latest attempt at censorship. Labor's spectacular backflip on their second attempt at this bill further cements their reputation as an out-of-touch government that consistently delivers failure. Had a bill like this existed in Churchill's time, he could've been censored for being a threat to free speech, for disrupting public discourse or for upsetting another country.</para>
<para>The Australian public recognised what this bill represented. With its introduction, the government sought to impose government mandated rules requiring digital platforms to prevent and respond to misinformation. If this bill had succeeded, it would've financially incentivised digital platforms to censor Australians. In other words, it would've encouraged profit driven censorship of free speech. Imagine Churchill giving his speeches in a world governed by such a bill. Social media companies might've claimed his warnings were false, misleading or deceptive. His words, which history tells us were crucial, might have been silenced.</para>
<para>It's laughable that the Treasurer tried to convince Australians that this bill was about protecting and advancing free speech, not censoring it. Australians saw right through this. The government should focus on tackling issues such as inflation and the cost of living, the crisis that they have presided over, rather than attempting to restrict free speech. This delusion typifies Labor's approach to anything it disagrees with, as was clear during last year's Voice referendum. Instead of fostering a contest of ideas, as any healthy democracy does, this government consistently employs covert tactics to silence critics and dissenting views. Even former Labor minister Kim Carr has warned of the dangers of this approach. He recently wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Labor ship has struck the rock of identity politics … with too many of its spokespeople adopting a censorious tone to those who fail to embrace their particular social policy agendas.</para></quote>
<para>Faith groups also expressed their concerns about this bill. They feared it would empower digital platforms and bureaucrats to determine whether religious belief was reasonable. The Australian Christian Lobby summed up these dangers perfectly. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The premise of this legislation is that power to determine the accuracy or truth of information … can safely be entrusted to government, an independent statutory authority, digital platforms and/or regulated media outlets. That should be anathema to anyone who cherishes the freedoms that underpin liberal democracy. Australians must be free to access information and engage in the public discourse that shapes political opinion.</para></quote>
<para>They went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It is essential that Australians should be able to express personal views, to critique the evidence and arguments of others and to act in accordance with their individual conscience and personal beliefs.</para></quote>
<para>This bill, like so much legislation under this government, was far too broad. While it targeted the speech of everyday Australians, it conveniently exempted certain groups, creating yet again an uneven playing field. The inconsistency would have created two classes of people in this great country of ours. Even worse, it would have empowered the communications minister to order investigations and conduct hearings into misinformation. History warns against centralising such power. The public saw through this, as they did with the religious discrimination bill. The government underestimated Australia's strong interest in protecting free speech. The widespread outrage ultimately forced Labor to abandon this second attempt at pushing the bill through, further proof of their disconnect from the public that they are supposed to serve.</para>
<para>During the 2023 exposure draft consultation process, over 24,000 responses were received, including 2,418 public submissions. At the time of this speech, the environment and communications committee had published only 98 submissions to its inquiry into this bill. In the submission to the exposure draft, the Law Council of Australia noted:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the heart of the difficulties presented by the Draft Bill are the definitions of 'misinformation' and 'disinformation'.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the breadth of the definition of 'misinformation' … the Law Council cautions that a digital platform is unlikely to have sufficient expertise or adequate resources to make accurate and completely informed determinations as to whether content is false and, therefore, may choose to censor significant amounts of information in order to ensure compliance and avoid incurring substantial fines. This would—</para></quote>
<para>and this is the kicker—</para>
<quote><para class="block">in turn, have a significant impact on freedom of expression.</para></quote>
<para>This bill was widely condemned, certainly by the Human Rights Commission, the civil liberties bodies and religious institutions, leading to its well-deserved demise. Perhaps the only achievement of this government is that it has finally united the country, just not in the way that it might have hoped. Australians from across the political spectrum have come together to reject such an attack on our democratic freedoms. Leading lawyer Professor Anne Twomey described the bill as a fiasco. Chris Merritt, the vice president at the Rule of Law Institute of Australia said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is a Trojan horse that would vest the power of parliament in one person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Nobody has a monopoly on truth—least of all public servants who report to a politician.</para></quote>
<para>Yet, despite these warnings, the Albanese government ignored Australians' concerns, pressing ahead with the bill until the day that it was due to be debated in the Senate. Only then, with the overwhelming public opposition staring them in the face, did they retreat. This backflip reflects poorly on the Prime Minister, whose lack of judgement has left this government adrift. Out of touch, lacking direction and with an increasingly nervous backbench, this government continues to flounder.</para>
<para>Let's be clear. This bill represented a clear and present danger to free speech in our country. Its withdrawal is no victory for Labor. It's a victory for the Australian people. But make no mistake. This momentary pause does not signal a change of heart from Labor. They struck it off the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> primarily because the bill had zero friends in the Senate. For most of us, this bill was dangerous and went too far, but, for the Greens, this bill did not go far enough. The question that I have is: what will a future Labor-Greens minority government do in this space? Contemplating that question puts shivers up the spine of every freedom-loving Australian. If this bill re-emerges, as it has before, I will continue to fight tooth-and-nail alongside my coalition colleagues to protect Australians' cherished right to free speech. This is not just about politics; it's about defending the freedoms that underpin our democracy. Many of our forebears gave their lives for these freedoms. They are not privileges granted by government; they are the rights that belong to every Australian. Mr Albanese must promise Australians that they will never again try to censor free speech. Free speech is not negotiable. It is essential to our democracy and must be protected at all costs.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Electoral Legislation Amendment (Electoral Reform) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5378</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to inform the Australian people about a very important matter, and I hope people will listen to what I have to say. The Albanese Labor government is going to introduce the Electoral Legislation Amendment (Electoral Reform) Bill 2024. This has only just been brought to my attention. I've had a meeting with the minister with regard to this; he was explaining to me what it means.</para>
<para>Most of you know that I formed my own political party in 1997. I've had the One Nation Party over that period of time—28 years—and I've led that party and been very heavily involved with it, so I know about running a political party.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, you're not even in your seat.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What's very important about this is people need to know what the government are planning for the Australian people and especially for the taxpayers. I'm ropeable and angry about it, and what is going to happen is so unfair.</para>
<para>We're going to oppose this bill that's going to be rammed through the parliament, enabling the major parties to milk the taxpayers—that's what I said: milk the taxpayers—to revive their flagging finances. I am furious at Labor's attempt to marginalise minor parties and lock in the Labor-coalition duopoly for as long as possible. I'm presupposing the coalition may support this bill. They may not; I hope they don't. But they may get the support of the Greens and some of the crossbench.</para>
<para>The two-party system came into place effectively in 1908, and it's been showing signs of collapse for many years now. Labor is doing everything it can to protect its privileged position as one of the two. It's a bald-faced attempt to attack significant election spenders like Clive Palmer and Simon Holmes a Court. It will be a compliance nightmare for minor parties and Independents.</para>
<para>Let me outline what Labor is intending. Labor's bill will reduce the political donation disclosure threshold to only $1,000. I don't have a problem with that; that's no problem at all. It was $16,000 but it's going to be reduced. Anyone who donates over $1,000 has to put their name down. An individual can then donate up to $20,000 per year every year; they can donate that money—so there is a cap of $20,000. They're going to place a $90 million cap on national election spending and place an $800,000 cap on spending in each electorate. Therefore, it is really targeting, like I said, Simon Holmes a Court and Clive Palmer. I have a problem with that, because the taxpayer will be paying for this. These are receipts that the parties put in so they can spend all this money, so that, at the end of the day, the taxpayer will be paying for it. A political party gets $5 per vote they get. The taxpayer is going to pay for this. Go your hardest, get your donations!</para>
<para>When I asked Senator Farrell if he will rein in the unions, because they're a backdoor third party to fund the Labor Party, he said, 'No, they're cut out.' He said they're going to stop union donations, which can be in the millions of dollars. But I've worked it out: all they've got to do is get individuals to give donations from the unions to the political parties of $20,000 each per year—so they will just pick some members out of the unions to give donations. The Greens get their donations from all their organisations that donate money as well.</para>
<para>The biggest point I'm making here is that each elected member of parliament is going to get paid $30,000 of taxpayers' money in compliance costs, and every senator will get $15,000 per year. The government talk about compliance costs. Let me tell you: small businesses and farmers have to pay GST, or collect GST. They have quarterly business activity statements, employment law, union delegate training, superannuation, retrenchment payments, climate reporting, supply change, emissions reductions, gender reporting, the Workplace Gender Equality Agency and Indigenous relations reconciliation plans. Where is their money for compliance costs? What money do they get from the government? None. You're feathering your own bloody nests, and that's why people are fed up with the major— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Physical and Sexual Harassment and Violence</title>
          <page.no>5379</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're in the midst of 16 Days of Activism against Gender-Based Violence. When you look around at the state of the country—and, indeed, the world—when it comes to the treatment of women, the attitudes towards women and girls, you could be forgiven for thinking that things are not looking very good.</para>
<para>We know, of course, that the election of Donald Trump in the United States has been hailed by misogynistic bros as a win for men against women. It's disgusting, and a real shame. The phrase 'your body, my choice' is being plastered across the internet, slipped into women's feeds from men who are antagonising, harassing and vilifying them. It's plastered across photos and memes from men online who want to send a message to women and the rest of the community that the rights of women are on the line. When there has been the election of a President who has been found to have harassed and assaulted women, boasted about his treatment of women and actively led the stripping of women's rights when it comes to decisions about their own bodies, you can understand why women, not just in America but around the world, are horrified.</para>
<para>Then you talk to young women here in Australia. I have a 17-year-old daughter, and she and her peers are shaken by what they are seeing and the attitudes to women and young girls that they are hearing. You can turn on the radio any weekday morning between 6 am and 10 am to hear from Australia's own Andrew Tate. That, of course, is Kyle Sandilands, a man who makes millions of dollars every year off the vilification of women and the promotion of violent behaviour and misogynistic attitudes. That is all done while pocketing millions of dollars, backed by advertisers who fund this particular radio show.</para>
<para>Who goes on these types of radio shows? Who hangs out with the likes of Kyle Sandilands? Well, the Prime Minister went to his wedding. I don't know what that says about the company you keep. Of course, Mr Dutton doesn't mind hanging out with him either. The two men at the top of the leadership of the two main political parties in this country hang out with this bloke. Only days ago they were asked about the comments and attitude of Mr Sandilands and refused to condemn him. They refused to condemn him. Sexist jokes, misogynistic attitudes being promoted, racism—it's vulgar, yes, but it's also dangerous.</para>
<para>More and more we hear from parents right across the country that both young women and young men need positive role models. The Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition denounce what goes on on social media because the attitudes are affecting the confidence and perceptions of young people—how they interact, how they feel about their bodies. The Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition, Peter Dutton, talk about cracking down and banning kids from social media because they're worried about what girls and young women think about their own bodies, and they won't even condemn a bloke that gets paid millions of dollars day after day to spew hatred and misogyny. Give me a break. It is time for Australian politicians to show, to lead and to do what they say. We call on men in this place to stand up and denounce the sexism and misogyny that is being promoted, whether it's online by influencers, whether it's by political leaders or whether it's by shock jocks and radio stars.</para>
<para>Of course, Mr Dutton has announced that he doesn't want a debate about abortion in the upcoming election because he knows it's a vote loser. But I tell you what: it's a preselection winner in the Liberal Party. You can win preselection by being antiwomen and antichoice, but Peter Dutton doesn't want you to talk about it, because he knows it's a vote loser. You can't have it both ways, Mr Dutton. This is the problem that Australia is facing right now as we hurtle towards the next federal election. Mr Dutton has made it very clear that he is going to take his policy cues and his campaign inspiration from Mr Donald Trump. We've got members of both his frontbench and his backbench already chomping at the bit to follow in Trump's footsteps, and women's rights will be on the chopping block—make no mistake.</para>
<para>In my home state of South Australia, we have Senator Antic, who now runs the show in the South Australian Liberal Party, who desperately wants to strip women's rights away when it comes to access to safe abortion. They all talk about it in their branch meetings, and they use it as a threat when it comes to preselection inside the Liberal Party so they can get the whack jobs the seats in parliament. But Mr Dutton doesn't want the public to know. Women are smarter than this, and we can see what is going on here. We know that when you hang out with the likes of people like Kyle Sandilands, the Andrew Tate of Australian radio, and you're getting your backbenchers to do all the dirty work when it comes to stripping women's rights on abortion and playing politics with their bodies, that you're not the prime minister for Australian women.</para>
<para>As a South Australian woman and mother, I am horrified that so much of this is being pushed and given a licence by Liberal Party members, senators and MPs from South Australia. If South Australians really knew the dirty tricks and the nasty things that the Liberal Party want to do and are trying to do under the radar at the behest of Mr Dutton, they would be shocked. But they will find out. It doesn't matter how much Mr Dutton wants to bury and cover up the real agenda—the Trumpian policies of his party and the Liberal whack jobs, the National Party crazies, the hardcore rump of the coalition. It doesn't matter how much he wants to paper over it; they are desperate to compete for airtime, desperate to be liked by each other, and the Australian public and the South Australian public will see them for what they are. Mr Dutton might not want abortion on the agenda, but women certainly want certainty and they want to keep their choice. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>5380</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Earlier this week the Senate didn't vote down the misinformation bill; the government withdrew it from the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> on the basis that millions of Australians did not want foreign social media companies telling them what they could and couldn't say on social media. Now, the question is this: why is it that the Australian people don't want their speech controlled by foreign media companies, yet that is exactly what happens with regard to credit in this country? Our credit in this country is controlled by foreign banks. In 1985 Paul Keating lifted capital controls. That meant that there were no restrictions on what domestic banks could borrow from foreign banks. We saw the level of foreign debt held by the four domestic banks here in Australia rise from $8 billion to $800 billion. It was ironic Paul Keating of all people should do that, because that was actually against the advice of the 1937 banking royal commission, which said the central bank should always control the volume of credit in the system.</para>
<para>One of the things I hear quite often from people in this chamber and other politicians is that we've always relied on foreign debt. That is a complete and utter insult to the working people of Australia. It is a complete and utter insult because it's not foreign debt or foreign capital that we have relied upon. It is our own capital. It is domestic capital in the form of equity, which is our untapped wealth. Every time a domestic bank goes out and borrows foreign dollars—for example, it's on the 144A bond market, it'll go out to the euro bond market or they'll go out and borrow US dollars in the main and get some euro bonds based in euros, but the biggest market in the world, of course, is a paper market, and that is the US treasury bond market. All of that money comes off the printing press. I asked the Minister for Finance last week why we won't create an infrastructure bank in this country whereby we issue equity instead of debt. We have got to stop issuing bonds to foreign investors. We are a sovereign country.</para>
<para>Now, companies, when they raise capital, don't always go out and issue debt. They can issue shares. We see it quite often here in Australia on the stock market. Mining companies will go out and issue new equity to start a new mining project. Why as a federal government don't we do that? We should because we are a sovereign country that has title over all the untapped wealth in this country. People will say, 'You can't print money out of thin air.' That's a complete and utter oxymoronic statement. All money comes out of thin air. The question isn't whether or not you issue new credit; the question is what you secure that credit against. Responsible management of credit is issuing credit against an asset—a debit—that is going to produce recurring revenue to pay down the debt or control title. That recurring revenue then pays for the cost of schools and hospitals. That title on a balance sheet is known as equity. Title over this country is what our founding forefathers built in this country. It is what our veterans fought for.</para>
<para>I urge people today to stop and reflect. If you don't want foreign social media companies controlling free speech in this country, why are you so relaxed and happy to allow foreign banks to control the level of debt in this country? If you think you're being controlled by the media through the propaganda they feed out to you every day, it is nothing compared to debt. Debt is the greatest instrument control of all. When Paul Keating lifted capital controls in 1985, it was a slap in the face to one of those authors of the 1937 banking royal commission—a future Labor prime minister by the name of Ben Chifley. It is up to the central bank, not foreign banks, to control the volume of credit in the system.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Road Safety</title>
          <page.no>5381</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Improving road safety is a key priority of the Albanese government. We know any death on Australian roads is one too many. But, unfortunately, the statistics are heading in the wrong direction. Since 2020 there has been a persistent increase in deaths and serious injuries on our roads. The recent <inline font-style="italic">R</inline><inline font-style="italic">oad </inline><inline font-style="italic">D</inline><inline font-style="italic">eaths Australia</inline> bulletin released by the Bureau of Infrastructure and Transport Research Economics shows that during the 12 months to September 2024 there were 1,288 road deaths. This is an increase of 5.6 per cent from the same period just a year earlier. We can't just view these deaths as a statistic. Each casualty is the life of a parent, a child, a loved one or a friend, taken too soon. Each loss creates a wave of suffering and grief that engulfs not just families but often entire communities as well.</para>
<para>Our government is committed to zero deaths and serious injuries on our roads by 2050. Through the National Road Safety Strategy, underpinned by the National Road Safety Action Plan, we're focused on prioritising areas where the Commonwealth can add the most value. One of those areas is improving road vehicle safety, where we're progressing the uptake of new vehicle safety features and technologies through the new Australian Design Rules. Since 2023 we have introduced 13 new ADRs and provided 31 amendments to existing ADRs.</para>
<para>Another area we're focused on is improving regional and remote road safety through targeted road safety infrastructure programs. We've increased funding for the Roads to Recovery program from $500 million to a billion dollars per year; increased Black Spot Program funding from $110 million to $150 million per year; and created the newer, safer Local Roads and Community Infrastructure Program, which will increase over time to $200 million per year. We're building and upgrading heavy-vehicle rest areas to ensure our truckies get home safely to their loved ones. And we have created the new National Road Safety Action Grants Program, providing grant funding to programs and initiatives that assist in delivering our commitment to Vision Zero.</para>
<para>Our government is also playing a role in coordinating and facilitating across jurisdictions. In my role as the Assistant Minister for Regional Development, with responsibilities for road safety, I chaired the Road Safety Ministers Meeting last Friday, where ministers from states and territories, along with representatives from local government, came together to share the actions being taken to make our roads safer across the country. Meaningful change can only come about when we work together, share experiences and data and ensure the money we're spending on roads will make a difference.</para>
<para>Under the new funding agreements between states and territories and the Commonwealth, all jurisdictions have committed to share critical road data such as information about fatalities, hospitalisations, police enforcement and analysis of crash risk. This data will give us a clearer picture about where best to target road safety funding, which will save lives and ensure we're investing in the projects that will make the most significant difference. This collaboration is important because no one government is responsible for getting the road toll down; we all have our part to play to ensure our roads are safe. And it's not just a roads issue; there are important connections with other portfolio and policy areas across all levels of government, whether that be health, education or justice. We're bringing all the relevant people together to ensure everyone is doing their part to bring the road toll down.</para>
<para>As we head to the end of the year, we know more people will be on the roads. Holidays mean more road trips with family, more chances to catch up with friends for a drink and the Christmas rush to get your presents sorted. Coming from a state like Queensland, I spend a lot of time on roads, as do others. There's nothing better than heading up the Bruce Highway over the summer holidays to some of the best holiday spots in the world. But with every summer comes heartache when it comes to road safety.</para>
<para>So my message to everyone this summer is don't be reckless behind the wheel, drive with others in mind and be alert. Improving road safety is a collective effort. We can't get the road toll down to zero through government actions alone. All of us need to remember to pay attention, to buckle up, to not drink and drive, to not speed and to not take risks on our road. It just isn't worth it. We want everyone to get home safely, and, if we all do our part, we can keep our roads safe for everyone in the community.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We've hit the hard marker of 1.30 pm.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education</title>
          <page.no>5381</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we head towards the end of the year and the end of things in here—there have been a few actions today—everyone's a bit tired and everyone's a bit stressed. It's all getting a bit like that as we head to the finish line. I've had the great luck of having my son, Lachlan Cadell, down here doing work experience for a few days. He's sitting just to my right down here.</para>
<para>I want to go through some of the stressors. We've been talking about social media. We've been talking about the stress of youth. I want to talk about the people who have just done their HSC. They're sitting here. They're waiting for their results. This is a really interesting part of life. I see, every time we get to this point where people are waiting on their results in the UK, multi-multimillionaire Jeremy Clarkson, who, from the outside, seems to have a very good life, talk about how he got one C and two Us, which I think means either 'incomplete' or 'unsuccessful', in his A-levels.</para>
<para>What happens in your HSC doesn't define you. You'll be tested again and again and again through life. The moments you're having now—all the people out there who have just done their HSC, their VCE or their equivalents—enjoy them. Enjoy this time that you have after your exams and before you join the workforce, before you get a trade or before you go onto further study, because they are the best times of your life. You have all the fun of youth and all the abilities of potential. I know things can get you down. I know you'll be worried about that envelope coming or about that email coming and saying what you can do in the future. I know I am worried about what that email will say, but this is a great time in life.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ayres</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a text message now.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Text messages—there you go. But you are so much more than that message. Everything you do in life—every day, you're faced with a new decision to make your lot better, to make better decisions, to be better people and to do these things. Remember, no matter what happens in life, the people that care for you will always be there. If things are too tough, call them. If things are rough, pick up the phone. If you're feeling horrible, pick up the phone and talk to a friend, because you don't deserve to go through life alone. You always deserve to be supported. <inline font-style="italic">(</inline><inline font-style="italic">Time expired</inline><inline font-style="italic">)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations: Amazon</title>
          <page.no>5382</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hear, hear! I do welcome Ross's son. Good to see you spending your schoolies here in Parliament House! Black Friday deals are in full swing, but this time of the year also serves as an important reminder for all of us. With many online retailers, when we click on an item, the check-out and delivery process is usually fast and convenient. However, behind the deals and soaring profits, sadly, a history of worker exploitation throughout the supply chain exists. According to reports just this week, Amazon workers in 20 countries around the world are planning to protest or strike this Black Friday to push for better workers' rights and also to take climate action. Amazon's record is, sadly, quite appalling. Workers' performance is monitored by using surveillance strategies to keep employees working faster and harder, and, beyond the warehouses, delivery drivers are monitored through a phone app and AI powered cameras installed in their cars.</para>
<para>Amazon also does not respect the workers' rights to join a union, denying them a collective voice that will represent them, and the company also doesn't pay its fair share of taxation, shifting income offshore to low-tax jurisdictions. For instance, in the decade of 2011 to 2020, Amazon paid just $5.9 billion in income tax compared to Apple, for example, which paid around $100 billion. So the message is clear: before you visit Amazon, think about its unsustainable business model that values its profits over its workers.</para>
<para>The Albanese government's recent reforms to gig-economy workers, labour hire and casuals are vital measures to address exploitation of Australian workers, but global action is also needed. Well done to the SDA and the TWU for backing the Make Amazon Pay campaign and fighting for workers— <inline font-style="italic">(</inline><inline font-style="italic">Time expired</inline><inline font-style="italic">)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Missing and Murdered First Nations Men</title>
          <page.no>5382</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I read the following statement with mixed emotions and sadness, because people from my WA community are hurting and angry that women, mothers, aunties and grannies have to travel here to demand to find their missing loved ones. I stand united today with these matriarchs to demand justice for their missing First Nations men. These include: Wesley Lockyer, from Port Hedland; Jeremiah Rivers, missing and believed to be murdered in Queensland; Clinton Lockyer, missing for two years, from Roebourne; Wylie Oscar, missing from near Fitzroy Crossing; Zane Stevens, lured from Roebourne and believed to have been murdered in Broome; and Brenton Shar, missing in Geraldton.</para>
<para>These men's loved ones have rallied and they have funded their own searches. And they are traumatised and unable to access mental health support because there simply aren't any services. The police response to their calls to offer rewards have been ignored. Requests for information and AFP oversight have been ignored. They need to bring their children home, to have their spirits at rest. How would you feel if this was your loved one?</para>
<para>These tragedies are not isolated but are reflective of systemic neglect. The claims by WA police that the disappearances involve no criminality, dismissing them as 'going walkabout', is both racist and deeply insulting to our culture. This is compounded by the inaction and indifference received by the loved ones from the WA state government. It's simply unacceptable. We are all waiting for the next brother, son or grandchild to go missing.</para>
<para>These families deserve financial and mental health support, and their sons and families deserve justice and accountability—and to be able to rest them at home. They are now calling on the highest government in the country to demand a royal commission into missing and murdered First Nations men, independent oversight of investigations by the AFP into missing men, and a culturally appropriate taskforce for the missing men in the north-west of Western Australia. We must act now, and the children— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Teal Independents</title>
          <page.no>5383</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHARMA</name>
    <name.id>274506</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was intrigued to read in the <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> earlier this month about an interview that Peter FitzSimons—he of the bandana—did with Simon Holmes a Court, talking about what his movement would be targeting at the next election. Simon Holmes a Court was quoted as telling Peter FitzSimons that they will supporting 20 to 25 campaigns in total. Now, he claims of course not to be running a party, but then he proudly boasts about how many candidates he'll be supporting in the election!</para>
<para>It prompted me to have a look at the record of the teals since they got in—and I acknowledge that I was a victim of that political movement at the last election; I'm not going to pretend that that didn't happen! Remember how they campaigned on ending fossil fuel subsidies and lowering emissions but then voted for the Labor government's energy price relief plan which gave billions in subsidies to fossil fuel companies? Remember how they campaigned on integrity but how we then heard they went cap in hand to the <inline font-style="italic">Australian Financial Review</inline> bureau to beg that their patron and donor be kept out of the <inline font-style="italic">AFR</inline>'s power index? Remember how they promised to clean up politics but then in their disclosures we learnt that they'd spent $2 million or more on their elections—and just yesterday they voted in the House against the electoral reform bill that is designed to keep big money out of politics and stop large donors from buying electorates?</para>
<para>Then there is this funny anecdote. A group called the Voices of Bennelong—this is a well-known teal movement—set up its Twitter account in August 2021, retweeting Monique Ryan, Kylea Tink, Simon Holmes a Court and Zali Steggall. It went quiet in April 2024, but then in June the Voices of Berowra Twitter account emerges. You can check the records: the Voices of Bennelong has now become the Voices of Berowra. Why? Because there's a sitting Labor member in Bennelong and a sitting Liberal member in Berowra. This reveals what this party is all about, and they should declare themselves as such. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Make Amazon Pay Campaign</title>
          <page.no>5383</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This week Black Friday is approaching, and once again the spotlight is on the Make Amazon Pay campaign. It's shameful that Amazon continues to have some of the worst working conditions in the world. In Australia, Amazon has called in police on union officials who are exercising lawful right-of-entry permits to investigate suspected workplace health and safety breaches. Amazon Flex drivers are being pressured into dangerous practices, such as overloading and rushing through deliveries. It beggars belief that, despite all the shocking revelations from the Transport Workers Union, Amazon told a parliamentary inquiry that no meaningful safety issues had been raised with them. That is just blatantly untrue. Concerns have also been raised by the Shop, Distributive and Allied Employees Association, which represents workers at Amazon sites in Australia, that Amazon's surveillance of its workforce could be in breach of freedom of association laws. There are proceedings in the Federal Court against Amazon on behalf of an employee who alleges she was denied permanent employment after disclosing she was pregnant.</para>
<para>As if Amazon's record on ripping off workers is not bad enough, they also have a shocking environmental record and are ripping off Australian taxpayers by shifting income offshore into low-income tax jurisdictions. In doing so, they are getting an unfair advantage over other Australian businesses that are doing the right thing. It's because of practices like Amazon's that Labor have had to crackdown on multinational tax avoidance, and why our 'same job, same pay' laws and minimum standards for gig economy workers are so badly needed. The coalition voted against our workers' protection and they will unwind them if they win the next election, allowing companies like Amazon to continue exploiting their workers. That is just unbelievable. Congratulates to the TWU and SDA in continuing the action to make workplaces safe for Amazon workers.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Qualifications of Senators</title>
          <page.no>5383</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This afternoon we will vote on a matter that strikes at the heart of our democracy: the urgent investigation into Senator Payman's eligibility to sit in this parliament under section 44. Australians deserve to know that every member of this chamber is eligible under the Constitution—no exceptions. Senator Payman's situation raises serious concerns. If she had been elected during the citizenship crisis of 2016-17, there is no doubt her case would have been referred to the High Court to review. Yet now there are efforts to avoid the same scrutiny. Instead of addressing these questions head on, Senator Payman is weaponising accusations of racism to divert attention and silence legitimate concerns. Australians are sick of this behaviour. It is an insult to the principles of fairness.</para>
<para>The Constitution and in the High Court are clear: dual citizenship is incompatible with serving in this parliament unless there is an impassable obstacle to renunciation under the law. We must ask whether the appropriate steps outlined by the High Court to meet this threshold have been taken, and the absence of clear evidence demands investigation. Adding to this, Senator Payman has admitted on the floor of the Senate that she holds undisclosed documents related to her eligibility which are not included in the Register of Senators Qualifications.</para>
<para>I will flag that I have, again, formally requested the President to consider referring this matter to the Standing Committee of Senators Interests for inquiry, and hope this is addressed before the vote today. The Australian people deserve to know the truth, and this chamber must deliver it. All I ask is for equality, and for the same standards to be applied to everyone without fear or favour.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission</title>
          <page.no>5384</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>National Anti-Corruption Commissioner Paul Brereton's future with the watchdog is in question after a review into a decision not to investigate six people referred to it by the robodebt royal commission. The watchdog inspector found Mr Brereton engaged in misconduct by not recusing himself entirely from the decision-making process after declaring a close association with a person involved.</para>
<para>Commissioner Brereton is a former Supreme Court judge and the head of the federal corruption watchdog, and conflict declarations are a fundamental control of the judicial process. It is incomprehensible to suggest that the commissioner made such a basic mistake. Commissioner Brereton must answer to the court, where a jury can decide whether or not he made the mistake or acted intentionally.</para>
<para>Commissioner Brereton's media statements further eroded trust when he was quoted in the media saying, 'Perhaps the most important lesson is that we are not the best person to manage our own conflict of interest.' This is an outrageous statement that has no credibility whatsoever. It is incomprehensible that the commissioner expects the public to believe that a former Supreme Court judge, and the head of the federal corruption watchdog is only now learning how to manage a conflict of interest. If this statement is true then the commissioner has rendered himself unfit to head the national corruption watchdog.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Digital ID Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5384</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYMAN</name>
    <name.id>300707</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The proposal to enforce age verification is a digital overreach of epic proportions. The government is asking all platforms to store your sensitive data, whether they be a secure tech giant or a sketchy looking forum. The government has put up amendments to exclude government ID, but how our biometric data will be treated is anyone's guess. Let's be real; kids will find ways around it. VPNs, fake accounts, borrowing mum's phone—these are easy workarounds that render the policy ineffective from the get go. What Australians need is a robust policy that actually addresses online safety, not an ill-conceived idea that puts everyone's privacy on the line.</para>
<para>To those under 16 who are being targeted by this policy, let me say this: Your voice matters, even if this government doesn't seem to think so. Shutting you out of social media is not the answer to the challenges it poses. Social media is where you express yourself, connect with friends and even learn new skills. When someone drowns we do not outlaw water. We may put up fencing around the pool or tell people to swim between the flags where lifeguards can see them. We do not fill a pool with concrete or lay landmines along Scarborough Beach. Rather than bluntly revoking access to social media, we should be focusing on teaching digital literacy, enhancing protections and investing in mental health support. The truth is this so-called ban will fail. It will drive activity underground, making it harder, not easier, to address the real concerns presented by cyberbullying and other harmful content. So let's call on the government to hit pause, scrap this rushed bill and consult widely. Craft a policy that protects young people's safety and their rights. You deserve solutions, not scapegoating.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Poverty</title>
          <page.no>5384</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the next few weeks we are going to see lots and lots of elected representatives posting on their social media about how so many people are doing it tough over Christmas, about how we need to support charity and other people who are helping them. That makes me angry and upset and frustrated, because we are standing in the very place that can fix that problem.</para>
<para>For over a decade, community organisations—and the Business Council of Australia and other organisations—have been pleading with governments to raise the rate of income support above the poverty line. This morning we had yet another presentation, one of dozens that I have been to already in the short time that I've been in parliament, presenting us with yet more evidence of the damage to people's lives that failing to raise the rate and leaving thousands upon thousands of people in this country in poverty is doing to so many people in this country.</para>
<para>It is disgraceful that Labor and the coalition—who have both been in government, who have both had the ability to lift thousands of people out of poverty in this country—have failed to do so. We have one in six young people living in poverty. I don't know how people in this place can feel like they are doing their jobs when thousands of people out there can't afford to eat, have a home or keep the lights on. Labor and the coalition, do better.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Red Tape</title>
          <page.no>5385</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the 47th Parliament draws to a close, many in this place will be tempted to congratulate themselves on how much legislation they have passed. If passing new laws was a measure of success, then this parliament has been an absolutely banger, hasn't it? This Senate has passed around 300 new bills in the past 2½ years. But do we really think that the Australian public will be excited to learn that we have created a new law almost every three days? Do we really imagine that mums and dads are thrilled that we have added yet more statutes to the books, tied them up in even more regulation and increased the size of the bureaucracy? How can we still claim to be the lucky country when people are overtaxed and overgoverned? And do they need to be? Are Australians so inept that every aspect of their lives must be overseen by the state? My wish for the next parliament is that we will congratulate ourselves on passing fewer laws and passing fewer regulations affecting the lives of ordinary Australians.</para>
<para>In 1991, the late Kerry Packer rightly suggested: 'If you want to pass a new law, why don't you only do it when you've repealed an old one?' Isn't that so simple? Doesn't it make sense? My dream, like Kerry Packer's, is for the next parliament to remove more laws than what we pass and leave Australians freer and less regulated than ever before. That would be a wonderful achievement that we could all actually be proud of and that all Australians would genuinely congratulate us on—in short, less government and much, much, much more freedom.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Sudan</title>
          <page.no>5385</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to give voice to a passionate plea from the Sudanese community in my home state of Queensland. There is a humanitarian crisis unfolding in Sudan. The conflict between the Sudanese army and the Rapid Support Forces has displaced 11 million people. Millions are suffering from malnutrition; 25 million are suffering from acute hunger. Every member of the Sudanese Community Association of Queensland has been impacted. Their stories are heartbreaking. I quote from one:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I lost my mother and 3 siblings to this catastrophic war. My elderly mother and 3 siblings felt unsafe to leave Khartoum … I remember the last day I spoke to my mother I begged her multiple times to leave … the next morning I got a call saying your mother and siblings died in an airstrike attack. All I can remember from that moment is that I screamed and fainted.</para></quote>
<para>I've received many stories of a similar nature from members of our Sudanese community, and I will be providing them to the foreign affairs minister. I call upon the government to listen to the pleas of the Queensland Sudanese community. I call upon the government to do all it can through international forums to promote a cessation of hostilities in Sudan and to increase humanitarian aid. I call upon the government to support our Australian-Sudanese community to deal with the trauma they are suffering. Let all senators be aware of the humanitarian catastrophe unfolding in Sudan and the devastating impact it is having on our beautiful Australian-Sudanese community.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Butterfly Foundation</title>
          <page.no>5385</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator TYRRELL</name>
    <name.id>300639</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I love the Butterfly Foundation. They provide essential services for people who are experiencing eating disorders or body image issues. I've met with people from this organisation both here and in Tasmania. Butterfly Foundation estimates that eating disorders affect more than one million Australians at any given time, which is about four per cent of us, but eating disorders affect nine per cent of Australians over their lifetime. I know how hard this organisation works to support people who are affected by these conditions as well as their families and friends.</para>
<para>Last year the Tasmanian state government extended Butterfly Foundation's recovery and care support service for three years, which helps people across Tassie who are experiencing eating disorders. Butterfly has been in Tassie since 2017 and has been doing great things for the people in my state. But this organisation needs more money, and permanent funding, so that it can continue helping people in my community and also in yours.</para>
<para>Eating disorders and body image issues affect people of all ages and stages of life, and they're not going away. We need to acknowledge that fact and come up with a solution so that these services are always available to whoever needs them, wherever they live. This funding must be distributed nationally, with a particular focus on regional and remote areas. People living rurally have less access to health services in general, but we know there are gaps in mental health services in all these areas.</para>
<para>Butterfly Foundation has a solution to support people wherever they live, with its counselling and support programs. These amazing people also want to invest in health promotion and prevention campaigns, which hopefully will stop eating disorders from taking such a strong hold. Anyone who needs it can get help from the Butterfly Foundation through its national helpline or website, www.butterfly.org.au, or you can chat with someone online. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Kanak People</title>
          <page.no>5386</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to talk about the staunch, powerful Kanak peoples who continue to resist French colonial occupation to assert their sovereignty and right to self-determination and independence. The Kanak people are the First Peoples of so-called New Caledonia. France has been denying the Kanak peoples their right to self-determination, sending in the military, who have killed human rights defenders, arrested thousands and arbitrarily detained others in France, thousands of kilometres from their homeland.</para>
<para>Last month, I had the honour of meeting Kanak Great Chief Sinewami, a king of the Kanak peoples and a real sovereign king, who shared stories of his people's struggle for liberation against colonial violence. And this morning I met with First Peoples leaders from across the Pacific, including Viro Xulue, Kanak chief and United Nations human rights and Indigenous rights representative. He told me how the UN Human Rights Council recently called on France to uphold the Noumea Accord, which sets out a process for decolonisation and upholds the Kanak people's right to self-determination. These calls have been supported by four UN special rapporteurs, yet the colonial government in this country has been silent. He said that France must respect the recommendations from the UN report and special rapporteurs and must uphold their obligations under the Noumea Accord.</para>
<para>To Viro and my brothers and sisters of Kanaky, I send you strength and solidarity in your ongoing resistance and struggle. I stand with you and for the liberation of all First Peoples across the Pacific and the world. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Services</title>
          <page.no>5386</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's that time of year again—a time for celebration, to join in the spirit of giving and to be with families and friends. For many, they will be spending this summer celebrating, but, for others, they will be struggling. That's why today I'm announcing, again, my annual Christmas appeal and encouraging Western Australians to give generously—to come to my electorate office, in the heart of Perth's northern suburbs, and put your gifts of toys, clothes and nonperishables under the Christmas tree. This year, if you can't come to me, I will come to you. Simply reach out on social media or call my electorate office, and we'd be delighted to come and get your generous gifts.</para>
<para>Of course, I'm delighted to again announce that I'll be using your generosity, your generous gift giving, to support the Salvation Army in Balga, which is celebrating 50 years of service to the Balga community—a community that I grew up in as a young person. But, if you can't support my Christmas appeal because you're living overseas or in the eastern states, then I encourage you to look across your local community to find a charity, to find a not-for-profit, that you think deserves your generous gift giving at Christmas this year. This is an important time of the year. We celebrate and we join with family and friends, but we also spend a moment to think about those that may not be as fortunate as ourselves. I encourage people to give, in this very generous country, as generously as they can this Christmas.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Albanese Government</title>
          <page.no>5386</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As 2024 draws to a close, I am proud to stand with my colleagues here and in the other place and reflect on all the progress Australia has made under the Albanese Labor government. Over a million new jobs have been created. The gender pay gap has dropped to a historic low. Real wages are growing. Half a million Australians have taken up fee-free TAFE. There have been 5.4 million new bulk-billed Medicare visits delivered. We are building Australia's renewable energy future and harnessing the jobs and opportunities it creates.</para>
<para>Just last night, a historic 15 per cent wage increase for early educators became the law in this country. This has been years in the making. It is an absolute honour to stand here today and congratulate the educators, the unions and the advocates who have made this happen. They have worked so hard to get the pay and recognition that educators more than deserve.</para>
<para>I had the privilege of representing this workforce before my time in the Senate. I know that they have given their all to make this happen. While the work is far from over, this pay rise will be life changing. Our educators love their jobs, but love does not pay the rent. More pay this Christmas will be so welcome and so will the respect that we are showing for this hardworking, dedicated and highly skilled workforce. What a way to cap off this year. Heading into 2025, our government is committed to building Australia's future—a future of good jobs, stronger Medicare and opportunity for all.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</title>
        <page.no>5387</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Standards</title>
          <page.no>5387</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senators, today the Deputy President and I are issuing a joint statement on the conduct in the chamber this morning. The actions of senators during and after the debate on a motion moved by Senator Hanson was unparliamentary and disrespectful. A number of senators have raised this conduct with me. It is clear from video proceedings that the nature of the interjections, shouting across the chamber and reflecting on another senator are unparliamentary. It is incredibly disappointing that, three years into the implementation of the recommendations of the Jenkins review, senators appear all too ready to descend into disorder, rather than seeking to conduct themselves in a safe and respectful manner. We must do better.</para>
<para>Although the video does not show it, I am informed that the disorder culminated in Senator Thorpe tearing up papers and throwing them at Senator Hanson. I cannot fathom any circumstances in which that kind of conduct in this Senate chamber is acceptable. Debate, of course, in this place is often lively. But senators must conduct themselves in an orderly fashion. Physically threatening behaviour will not be tolerated. It is up to each and every senator in this place to find ways to take the heat out of the chamber.</para>
<para>This comes just days after Senator Thorpe was asked to withdraw an earlier comment after using a phrase which senators from across the chamber have described as culturally unsafe. It also comes just days after Senator Thorpe and Senator Faruqi moved a reference to the procedure committee, seeking to improve safety and respect in the Senate chamber, which includes these senators.</para>
<para>I have advised the Parliamentary Workplace Support Service of the incident and I've spoken with Senators Hanson and Thorpe. I remind senators that all parliamentarians have agreed to behaviour standards for Commonwealth parliamentary workplaces. We have agreed to act respectfully, professionally and with integrity.</para>
<para>Given that this conduct has occurred within the chamber during Senate proceedings, this is a matter for the Senate to deal with, not the Independent Parliamentary Standards Commission, which oversees the parliamentarians code. Standing order 203 provides an avenue for dealing with disorderly conduct. It includes a process to enable senators to explain their conduct or apologise for it. It also provides for the Senate to determine whether senators should be suspended from the Senate for such conduct. Given the gravity of this matter, I don't intend to deal with it immediately. I will be meeting with the Deputy President and leaders of the government, the opposition and the Greens to consider this matter and next steps. Thank you, senators.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>5387</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environmental Defenders Office</title>
          <page.no>5387</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong, and it follows the revelations in today's front-page story in the <inline font-style="italic">Australian</inline> newspaper about the activities of the Environmental Defenders Office in the Barossa pipeline case in the Federal Court. Minister, how can the Albanese Labor government continue to fund the job-destroying EDO when it pays individuals to so brazenly collude and invent evidence, such as someone who was 'happy to move' the alleged resting place of a Rainbow Serpent on a map to 'where it seems most culturally appropriate'?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The first point I'd make is that I think the comments on the EDO's conduct by Justice Charlesworth in her judgement on this case really speak for themselves. I would say that we did go to the election with a clear commitment to restore funding; however, the government expects the Environmental Defenders Office to act ethically and professionally. The minister has also previously written to the CEO of the Environmental Defenders Office, making that clear. And I am advised that the court will make a decision on costs next week, as they should.</para>
<para>What I would say to the EDO is that there is a place for sensible, appropriate litigation to preserve the integrity of laws, and that I think all Australians, regardless of where they sit politically, would expect them to act, in terms of their remit, both ethically and professionally. I think the comments of the judge speak for themselves.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Duniam, first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, how can the Albanese Labor government continue to provide tens of millions of dollars of taxpayers' money to the job-destroying EDO, when it not only paid an individual to create an alleged expert report on the Barossa case that was sent back to them for their own wholesale editing to ensure it 'met expectations' but also paid the head of the Stop Barossa Gas campaign, who then, in turn, paid traditional owners to become involved in her campaign?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>These are actions not of the government but of the EDO. I believe that there is a place in our system of laws to ensure there is the capacity to uphold a legal framework, but I do not believe, if you read Justice Charlesworth's comments, that the conduct of the EDO has met the standard that any of us in this place would expect should be met by an entity which is charged with assisting—I would say assisting—with the observance of laws in this country.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Duniam, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, why is your government not immediately, today, ending your multimillion dollar funding of the EDO? Do you agree or not agree that, as well as being eviscerated—as you've already referenced—by federal judge Justice Natalie Charlesworth, this organisation has been involved in many other nefarious and disgraceful activities throughout the period in which your government has been providing money to it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm asked to respond to a range of unspecified assertions. I'm obviously not going to do that, Senator. But what I would say is that we went with an election commitment to restore funding to the EDO. I know that those opposite don't believe that there is a place for entities that have standing to be able to ensure that environmental laws are observed. But what I would say is that there is no place for unethical or unprofessional conduct, and that is the expectation that the minister has made clear to the CEO of the Environmental Defenders Office.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Grocery Prices</title>
          <page.no>5388</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GHOSH</name>
    <name.id>257613</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Treasurer, Senator Gallagher. At every opportunity, the Albanese Labor government has provided cost-of-living relief, delivering bigger and fairer tax cuts so Australians can keep more of what they earn. We know people need help with their bills, so we have provided energy bill relief. We know students are under pressure, so we slashed student debts and expanded fee-free TAFE. We've made child care cheaper, medicines cheaper and bulk-billing more accessible. Western Australians often raise with me the cost of groceries. What is the government doing to ensure Australians get value at the supermarket checkout?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Ghosh for the question and for focusing on the needs of his constituents in the great state of WA. Senator Ghosh is right to point out that, with all the measures that this government has put in place to help with those cost-of-living pressures, we know that people are doing it tough and we know particularly—in reference to the last part of Senator Ghosh's question—how many Australians are feeling about the price of groceries at the moment. We've been making it clear through the work that the Prime Minister has been leading, on cracking down on supermarkets and resourcing the ACCC, just how seriously we take any suggestion of shonky behaviour that will cost Australian families at the checkout.</para>
<para>The Albanese government will introduce legislation that will see supermarkets face multimillion-dollar penalties for breaches of the Food and Grocery Code of Conduct. This is part of our broader competition policy agenda to get farmers and families a fair go. The bill provides that maximum fines under the food and grocery code will be at least $10 million. These are serious penalties. They are the highest corporate penalties under any industry code. Regulations to make the new mandatory Food and Grocery Code of Conduct will be made this year, as I advised Senator Pocock yesterday, with the code coming into force from 1 April 2025. The new code will help ensure that supermarkets are as competitive as they can be so Australians get the best prices possible.</para>
<para>This is all part of our broader competition policy agenda, which is cracking down on shrinkflation by strengthening the unit pricing code to make it easier for Australians to make accurate and timely price comparisons, working with states and territories to reform planning and zoning regulations, ensuring the ACCC will be notified of every single merger in the supermarket sector in the biggest strengthening of merger reform in half a century and providing the ACCC with— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ghosh, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GHOSH</name>
    <name.id>257613</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Monthly inflation data were released today by the Australian Bureau of Statistics. What did the data show, and how is the Albanese Labor government managing the inflation challenge?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The data released today, and it is welcome data, Senator Ghosh, as you point out, that the monthly inflation figure remained at 2.1 per cent in the year to October 2024, the same as the previous month. This means—</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, you've never seen an economic statistic you would welcome—2.1 per cent in the year. What those opposite would love to see is inflation remaining higher. That is what they are arguing for. Every time we get a good economic dataset in—and this is welcome, 2.1 per cent—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is it welcome, Australia?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> It's much more welcome than the 6.1 per cent we inherited. Let's just say that. Let's just remember what we inherited: inflation with a six in front of it and increasing. Interest rates were increasing under your watch, peaking in December. We've seen interest rates stable. We're seeing inflation coming down. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ghosh, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GHOSH</name>
    <name.id>257613</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Whether it's putting the supermarkets on notice or managing inflation, the Albanese Labor government is working hard to make lives easier for all Australians. The cost-of-living challenge is real, and that's why we've provided relief wherever we can. What could be standing in the way of the government delivering further cost-of-living relief for all Australians?</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DISTINGUISHED VISITORS</title>
        <page.no>5389</page.no>
        <type>DISTINGUISHED VISITORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Patterson, Dr Kay Christine Lesley, AO, Balchin, Ms Jo-Anne</title>
          <page.no>5389</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, before I go to you, I will advise the chamber that in the gallery today we have the former honourable senator and former age discrimination commissioner Dr Kay Patterson, and with her is Ms Jo-Anne Balchin.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>5389</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Grocery Prices</title>
          <page.no>5389</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you have the call.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Hello, Ms Patterson, one of my constituents these days. Welcome. It's so nice to see you there in the chamber. I'll get back to the question now because I only have 54 seconds to go.</para>
<para>The question, again, on cost of living—and I had those interject over in the previous answer about annual trimmed mean inflation. You must have been very worried, Senator Paterson, when annual trimmed mean inflation was at 4.3 per cent under your watch. You must have been very, very concerned at that point, because it has come down. It has come down to 3½ per cent in October 2024 from 4.3 per cent on your watch. So let's just remember what has happened in this term. Inflation was rising under the former government. Interest rates started to increase under them. And, since they've been in opposition, they've said no to tax cuts for every taxpayer, no to minimum wage increases, no to pay rises for aged-care workers and no to cheaper medicines. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environmental Defenders Office</title>
          <page.no>5389</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Is the minister aware of any conduct that the Environmental Defenders Office has engaged in that would give reason for the government to reconsider the millions of dollars in taxpayer funds the job-destroying EDO receives each year?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I'm asked whether I assume the minister I'm representing is aware of any problematic conduct, if I may paraphrase. Obviously, the minister has already made public comments in relation, I think, to this matter—certainly, I have on her behalf today and possibly previously. But I'm very happy to get further information on what the minister has engaged in with the EDO and what expectations have been made clear to the Environmental Defenders Office and return to the chamber.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How has the government satisfied itself that the taxpayer funded and job-destroying EDO has not been subject to foreign interference and is not in receipt of foreign donations?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, I was slightly distracted at the beginning of that question and I apologise for that. If the question is, 'Do we know of any foreign interference in the EDO?' no, I have no information I can provide. In relation to your first question—and I'm indebted to Senator McAllister—I'm advised that this evidence was provided at estimates to your colleague Senator Duniam, as to amendments or new clauses put into funding agreements with the EDO, subsequent to a number of the allegations or issues which have been publicly raised.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McDonald, a second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, my question was—I'm just waiting till you're not distracted. It was: how the government has satisfied itself that this was not the case, not whether or not you were aware. Can the minister guarantee that the taxpayer funding provided to the job-destroying EDO cannot be used to help settle any court cases where it has fabricated evidence and coerced witnesses?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>First, in relation to foreign interference, we have a very robust system against foreign interference in Australia—I would just make that point. That would not necessarily be required to be regulated through funding arrangements and so forth. We have an overarching system which guards against foreign interference in this country.</para>
<para>In relation to the second issue, as Justice Charlesworth indicated, regarding the sorts of suggestions which you have put forward—the sorts of propositions—I would trust the legal system in Australia to make sure that any evidence that was fabricated—</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, any evidence that was fabricated in the way that you have described. I would trust that a court would have the capacity to recognise that, and that would be something the judgement would have regard to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Immigration Law</title>
          <page.no>5390</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs. Minister, every single human rights organisation and multicultural community that has spoken to your government's latest three migration bills has said they will separate families, damage communities and send people into danger. Why has the Albanese government chosen to work with Mr Dutton to push through this brutal antirefugee, antimigration legislation, despite the calls from every NGO in the sector and all people with a conscience?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Shoebridge. The practical reality that the government is encountering is a series of High Court decisions that need to be responded to. As Senator Shoebridge would be well aware, this parliament has debated a number of bills and passed a number of bills, not with the support of the Greens, to deal with some unusual situations in immigration law, but there have been at least two High Court decisions in recent times that I can think of that have found deficiencies in that legislation and that have called into question various immigration practices of this country.</para>
<para>A responsible government, when faced with that situation, has a choice: to rectify those issues to accord with community standards about these issues or to ignore them. I understand that the Greens political party would choose to ignore those practical realities, but this government understands that, when the High Court makes decisions, then governments need to act.</para>
<para>Senator Shoebridge asks why the government chooses to seek agreement with the opposition on these matters, and it is the case that there have been discussions with the opposition around these matters. One of the reasons we do that is that, whatever the subject matter, we can rely on the Greens political party to say no. This week we've seen it again, with the Greens political party finally caving in on housing. But we see it on every single issue: that the Greens political party have made a political judgement that it's in their political interests to oppose what a Labor government is seeking to do. If the Greens political party decided to have a different political strategy and were prepared to work with the Labor government, rather than block us, then maybe we'd be in a different situation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, a first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yeah, sure, Minister. Labor has now created mandatory detention—offshore detention in PNG—and stopped people who sought asylum by sea from ever making a home here, and it has now introduced a package of bills that includes a Trump-style travel ban. When will Labor stop teaming up with the coalition to attack migrants in the hope of peeling off some votes from the Right, and when will you stop attacking people based on where they were born?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, I could answer the question simply by referring you to my previous answer, but I might take the opportunity to repeat the point that, the way the Senate operates, no party has a majority to pass its legislation. I think it's well understood that, for our government, the options are to come to an agreement with the opposition on a matter or to come to an agreement with the Greens on the matter. As we have repeatedly seen, not just this year but in this entire parliamentary term, the Greens political party has no intention whatsoever of supporting Labor legislation, because that would involve cooperating, that would involve compromise and that would involve actually achieving something rather than blocking something.</para>
<para>We understand that you have thought that it's to your political advantage to block Labor. It would appear that parts of your party are starting to understand that maybe that's not such a politically successful strategy, but I know, Senator Shoebridge, that you'll never be in the camp of compromise to achieve reform. You will always be in the camp of destructive opposition. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again: sure, Minister. Mr Dan Tehan bragged today that the coalition is 'running the immigration system for the government', and they're not wrong. Why is Labor just surrendering immigration to the coalition and Peter Dutton?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, I remind you to refer to those in the other place by their correct titles.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why is Labor just surrendering immigration policy to the coalition and Mr Peter Dutton?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Minister Watt, I remind you to direct your comments to the chair.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Chair—'President' even. President, I make the point again that Senator Shoebridge obviously has a political agenda. I think even members of his own party understand what Senator Shoebridge's political agenda is. We have a different agenda, and that is to govern in the interests of all Australians. Senator Shoebridge might be the last person in his party room to understand that the destructive opposition that he and certain others in his party room have a been employing for this term might not be working out there in the real world.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Senator Shoebridge, I didn't see you stand. Senator Shoebridge.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's okay, President. My question wasn't about the Greens; my question was about—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, are you on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Indeed. My point of order is relevance. My question was not about the Greens; my question—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not asking you to go into your question. I've noted it down.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But you haven't—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Shoebridge, I believe that the minister is being relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Shoebridge</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Of course you do.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will listen closely and call him to the question if necessary.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, President. Senator Shoebridge obviously has had a road to Damascus conversion, where he has realised that, at the end of this term, he and his colleagues will have spent the entire time voting with Peter Dutton to block housing—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, I am going to draw you to the question, and I'm going to remind you to please refer to those in the other place by their correct title. Senator Waters, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's going too far now. You're adversely reflecting on a senator. And actually the question was about your cosy relationship with the opposition. Could you please address that?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie, order! Minister Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. I would remind Senator Shoebridge that, for all his feigned outrage, he was the one who put a very political statement at the end of the question. The minister is being utterly relevant in responding to that political statement.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. I have drawn the minister back to the question and reminded him how to refer to others in the other place. Minister Watt.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. I take the point of order also from Senator Waters about the 'cosy relationship' with the coalition. If we want to talk about cosy relationships, let's look at the Greens activity over this term in blocking housing, and now it's the Greens who are lining up with the cooker faction of the opposition to block social media reform. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>5392</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Wong, the Minister representing the Prime Minister. I know people in my home state of Victoria are doing it tough, as they are across Australia. How has the Albanese Labor government used every day of sitting this year to progress cost-of-living relief for all Australians? And how have Mr Dutton and the Liberals and Nationals tried to block every single cost-of-living measure this entire year? How will government legislation passed by the Senate this week help Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Walsh for her question. We know that Australians are doing it tough at the moment and we also know that when we came to office Australians were going backwards—higher inflation, rising inflation, falling real wages and $1 trillion of Liberal debt. Labor has been working hard to clean up the mess.</para>
<para>The Albanese government's economic plan is all about helping people with their cost of living, while fighting inflation to bring costs down. It is good to see inflation at around one-third of what we inherited. All year in parliament, we've been focused on the No. 1 issue, which is cost of living. Despite every effort by Mr Dutton to block, we are turning promises into progress. Last week the government's Help to Buy scheme was passed by the Senate—a shared equity scheme that means 40,000 households, including teachers, childcare workers and nurses, will be able to buy a home. It is Labor that is working to lift wages and bring down costs, delivering progress on Australians' priorities.</para>
<para>Last night, of course, the Senate passed legislation to deliver a 15 per cent pay rise for early educators and teachers. I salute Senator Walsh and the many union members, officials and secretaries on this side who ran the campaign that enabled the Labor government to deliver it. They are the ones who delivered it. The members and the Labor Party are the ones who delivered that pay increase. We passed legislation to give extra funding to our public schools, and we are wiping $3 billion in student debt for more than three million Australians. For someone in Senator Walsh's home state of Victoria, with a HELP debt of $27,000 they will see around 1,200—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Wong, please resume your seat. Order! I remind senators that at the beginning of question time I talked about the disorder in this place. It is not the role of the opposition to yell over a minister. It is completely out of order. Minister, did you wish to continue?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Unlike Senator McKenzie, we think it is a good thing to reduce the HELP debts of students in her state. Senator Walsh thinks that; Labor thinks that; I'm sorry that you have such a problem with that, Senator McKenzie.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. Senator McKenzie, I have named you a couple of times.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie, you're not in a debate with me. Either sit and listen or leave. You are to sit in respectful silence. Senator Walsh, first supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, President. Minister, what cost-of-living relief measures has the Albanese Labor government introduced to keep costs down, including at the supermarket checkout and for power bills?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Those of us on this side—rather than the cultural wars we've seen—are focused on cost of living. We're focused on how to help Australians with the No. 1 issue, and that is the cost of living, and how we can work to lift wages and bring down costs. That includes government initiatives like the tax cut for every taxpayer and the energy bill relief for every household that those opposite voted against. We are working to ensure that Australians do not pay more than they should, including at the check-out, by supporting the competition watchdog so it can crack down on bad behaviour, by working to improve competition through merger reform and planning, by taking action to fight shrinkflation and introducing big penalties for supermarkets which do the wrong thing and getting Choice to provide quarterly price monitoring.</para>
<para>The reality is that there's one side of politics which is focused on cost-of-living measures and ensuring that wages keep increasing, and that is the Australian Labor.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Walsh, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>After a decade of reckless neglect and mismanagement from the Liberals and Nationals that led to Australians being worse off, how is the Albanese Labor government working to clean up the mess and build a brighter and better future for all Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This government is focused on ensuring that we deliver on promises and deliver progress, and this government, unlike those opposite, is working to lift wages and bring down costs. We on this side back Australians to get higher wages. On that side, they want lower wages. We on this side have backed Australians to get lower taxes. They wanted to call an election so they could have higher taxes. We on this side have backed Australians to deliver cheaper medicines, fee-free TAFE and more homes in every part of the country—all opposed by Mr Dutton's opposition.</para>
<para>People across this country are still under pressure, and there is more to do. But what we want to be very clear about is that Mr Dutton has blocked or tried to block every single cost-of-living measure this entire year, and we know he wants cuts to Medicare, to pensions, to schools and TAFE. He wants cuts to cheaper childcare and cuts to cheaper medicines, and his reckless arrogance has real costs for Australians. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Mining Industry</title>
          <page.no>5393</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for the Environment and Water, Senator McAllister. The ABC's <inline font-style="italic">Landline</inline> program has reported that the Victorian Labor government is considering the compulsory acquisition of about 3,000 hectares of farming land around Horsham by a Chinese mining company to extract mineral sands. Families have been farming much of this land for generations, while other mineral sands mining operations in the region have left a legacy of damaged soils and contaminated water sources. There are also concerns about impacts on water quality in the Murray-Darling Basin. Minister, why hasn't this project come under review according to the provisions of the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conversation Act.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I call you, Senator McAllister: I heard the general comment you made, Senator Ruston. It was unparliamentary, and I ask that you withdraw it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Minister McAllister.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, I am not aware of the particulars of the project that you reference, but I can say this about the way that the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act works. Essentially, there is a list of things that, if engaged, causes a matter to be referred to the Australian government for consideration. Otherwise, for the most part, decision making about environmental impacts is a matter for the states and territories. So many of the things that are raised—they are often raised in estimates by members of the crossbench, in particular—go to issues that are properly the area of the states and territories, and the Commonwealth doesn't seek to take over those responsibilities.</para>
<para>The EPBC Act covers nine protected matters. If they are engaged to a significant degree, it can be grounds for the Commonwealth to consider those matters. Those matters are world heritage areas; national heritage places; wetlands of international importance that are listed under the Ramsar convention; listed threatened species and ecological communities; listed migratory species protected under international agreements—we are talking about birds; Commonwealth marine areas; the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park; anything to do with nuclear—uranium mines or other nuclear actions; and water resources that relate to coal-seam gas development and large coalmining development. You listed a range of factors that you consider are relevant in relation to this project. I'm not in a position to comment on whether or not they do engage Commonwealth legislation. More generally, I would say to you that in many instances the kinds of questions that you're asking are usually the responsibility of the states and territories.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for your list. It's a shame there isn't anything about prime agricultural land on it. WIM Resource, the Chinese owned mining company in question, plans to extract up to 490 tonnes of ore exclusively for China. This includes rare-earth minerals and other valuable minerals including rutile and zircon. Minister, why is the Albanese government and the Allan Labor Victorian government allowing a Chinese mining company to extract these precious materials for their country instead of engaging an Australian mining company to extract them for our country? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm asked about a project that is reported in the media, according to the senator, in Victoria. I've already indicated to the senator that I don't have information about that particular project. I'd also make the point that she asks me this question in my capacity as the minister representing the minister for the environment. But the question that is now directed to me goes, I think, to much broader questions around investment in Australia and the approach we take to the development of mineral resources. Those aren't within the portfolio area that I represent. I have given Senator Hanson the information that I do have about the way that the environment laws would apply to a project of this kind, but, as I've already indicated, I really am not in a position to provide specific information about this project. It is simply not something that I am briefed on.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can understand that, but I have to say that there are families living on this land who have worked the land for over 100 years, so I think that has to lot to do with it. The Wimmera region around Horsham produces up to $2 billion worth of high-quality grains every year. You say you don't have anything to do with it, but why did the Albanese government scrap the goldmine over a mythical insect and is holding up a $29 billion gas project for a poisonous sea snake? When will Australia's world-class farmers be given the same protections against mining as mythical and poisonous animals?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The senator asks, I think, why prime agricultural land is not presently considered a matter of national significance. I think the answer is: because these are the laws that have been in place for many decades now, arising from their passage during the Howard government era. The EPBC Act lists nine specific matters that the Commonwealth takes an interest in. It is the case that states and territories do, as I understand it, in some circumstances, consider land use planning questions, including the significance of land for agricultural purposes. That's not actually a feature of the national environment law. Obviously, should senators consider that it should be a feature, it is open for you to bring forward reforms of that kind in your capacity as senators.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environmental Defenders Office</title>
          <page.no>5394</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Wong. Minister, documents tabled in the Federal Court and reported by <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> detail the extraordinary lengths activists at the job-destroying EDO went to in their attempt to block the Barossa Gas Project, including reinventing and relocating traditional culture. Minister, is funding the EDO not the government supporting the EDO's exploitation of Aboriginal people and our culture?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would refer you to the answer I gave your two other colleagues who asked questions about this. I don't believe, if you read Judge Charlesworth's comments, that one could be anything other than deeply shocked by some of what has occurred. I would say to you that I have faith in our legal process to ensure that the sorts of actions that have taken place are dealt with appropriately, including through the legal process such as the costs order which I referred to in answer to Senator Duniam. So I think the comments speak for themselves.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Nampijinpa Price, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the documents tabled in court connect the job-destroying EDO with consultant Antonia Burke, who in turn admitted to assisting Senator Dorinda Cox with drafting legislation. Is the government content with the taxpayer funded EDO exploiting traditional owners? Is it also content with the EDO supporting partisan politicians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't know whether you had the courtesy to let Senator Cox know you were going to ask a question about her. I would say to you that, in general, I don't have a view. We use this place to deal with those sorts of issues. If there is an issue where there is any suggestion that behaviour was not consistent with the terms of the funding arrangements then that relevantly is a matter for the Commonwealth.</para>
<para>What I would say to you is I'm sure the minister will consider the funding agreement and consider whether the assertion you have made is within that funding agreement. I understand the minister did ask the department to review the funding agreement after some previous allegations, and I also understand the funding agreement was amended, as Senator McAllister has indicated in estimates.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Nampijinpa Price, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator NAMPIJINPA PRICE</name>
    <name.id>263528</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, will the government continue to give the job-destroying EDO taxpayer money even if it is ordered to pay Santos's legal fees?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer you to my earlier answers, but what I would say is that I went through earlier some of the clauses which had been inserted into the contract after some issues had been raised previously. The first one was that the grantee must ensure that personal working and legal practitioners comply with all applicable state and territory laws governing the legal profession and hold a current practicing certificate. The second amendment was that the grantee must notify the Commonwealth immediately on becoming aware of any disciplinary proceedings or orders made by a law society or of any adverse comment or finding in a decision made by a court regarding the conduct and performance of the grantee.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Justice Reinvestment</title>
          <page.no>5395</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This question is for the Minister for Indigenous Australians, Minister McCarthy. Minister, I understand that approximately 90 applicants for the latest round of justice reinvestment grants were recently informed that their applications would not even be considered. This decision reeks of disregard for those fighting to make meaningful change on the ground. Can you confirm the total number of applicants that were sent this letter and how many were from organisations that were First Nations controlled and operated?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that that program is, in fact, administered in the Attorney-General's portfolio. I'm happy for you to either redirect the question or address it to the minister representing the Attorney-General. I'm not trying to be difficult. I think it's a program that's not covered by Senator McCarthy's portfolio but is—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Shut your mouth!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, come to order. Senator Thorpe!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You need to open your eyes, President.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe! Withdraw that comment.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How come you tell me off—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, withdraw the comment.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>They are having a go at me. You don't hear them, do you?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, you are not in a debate with me. You either withdraw the comment you just made—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, you need to stand and withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Senator Polley, I'm not quite sure what you said—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, it was her in the purple dress.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, if you can't come to order then I will rule that you not be heard. I am trying to work out what happened. I do not need your interjections. If there was a disorderly comment—I thought it was Senator Polley, but my apologies if it wasn't—I am inviting whoever it was to withdraw in the interests of the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Bilyk</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Bilyk. Minister Watt.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Thorpe. This government has made significant new investments when it comes to justice matters involving First Nations people. We've particularly made investments through our National Justice Reinvestment Program that are entirely designed to support the legal needs of First Nations people in a wide variety of communities right across the country. Many of the organisations are of course in remote communities, and they span a range of Indigenous corporations, leaders groups and legal services. As recently as September this year, Minister McCarthy and the Attorney-General jointly announced an additional six organisations selected to deliver justice reinvestment initiatives, everywhere from the—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister Watt, please resume your seat. Senator Thorpe?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's relevance. The question is that there are 90 applicants; 90 mob have reached out saying, 'What's going on with this minister here?'</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, please resume your seat. You don't need to repeat the question. The minister is being relevant. You did talk about a particular program. The minister is responding to the first part of your question.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I say, Senator Thorpe—through you, President—there are a wide variety of organisations that have been funded already by the government through our Justice Reinvestment Program. I don't know the circumstances of the groups that you're referring to. But it is not unusual that through funding programs there are more applicants seeking funding than can be provided funding. So it may well be the case that some of the organisations that you're talking about did apply unsuccessfully for funding, but I can take you through the list of organisations that have received funding.</para>
<para>In February this year we funded nine organisations to deliver justice reinvestment initiatives across a number of states. In April we funded an additional 10 organisations to deliver justice reinvestment initiatives. In September an additional six organisations were selected to deliver justice reinvestment initiatives. And they are of course in addition to our early investments in Alice Springs and Halls Creek. I understand that maybe not everyone was successful, but there are a lot of groups getting funding as well. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can you please outline the reasons for the 90 that weren't considered after their application? They want an answer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't think, Senator Thorpe, you would expect me to have the details of a tender process in a portfolio that I'm not the minister for. It is customary for feedback to be provided to applicants as to why they're unsuccessful. I'm happy to take on notice what I can provide about why those particular groups were unsuccessful, if in fact they did apply. I don't know whether they did or not.</para>
<para>As I've said to you, there are a very large number of organisations that have been funded, as a result of this government, in a way that hasn't been done before under previous governments. That's a good thing. These organisations are delivering important services to people who deserve that support, and that's exactly what our government will do going forward.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Applying for government grants is time consuming and diverts organisations' time and resources away from the urgent needs of our people. Will your government compensate those 90 applicants for the resources they wasted on a process that led nowhere?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would haven't thought we would be compensating groups who are unsuccessful in receiving government funding. Across every single portfolio of government there are far more organisations that apply for funding than it is possible to fund. We don't fund any groups who are unsuccessful in obtaining funding. I don't know whether the particular groups that you're talking about were eligible for funding. But the reality is that, from what I can see, there are a large number of organisations from every state and territory in the country who have received funding, ranging from the Cowra Information and Neighbourhood Centre Inc. to the Nja-marleya Cultural Leaders and Justice Group, in Maningrida, in the Northern Territory. Of course, it would be disappointing for those who missed out on funding, but it simply isn't possible to fund every organisation who seeks government funding, whether it be in this portfolio or in any other.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Natural Disasters: Response And Recovery Planning</title>
          <page.no>5396</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Emergency Management, Senator McAllister. My great home state of South Australia has recently braced itself for some catastrophic fire conditions over a number of days. The CFS volunteers face really challenging conditions, and we are really deeply grateful for their work in keeping South Australians safe. What should Australians be preparing for this summer, Minister? How can they get themselves and their communities ready?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Grogan for her question, and I join her in thanking the many paid and volunteer firefighters and emergency service workers across Australia that are facing some really tough conditions. Australia is, unfortunately, one of the most disaster-prone countries in the world, and this is our busy season. In the lead-up to the season, the National Emergency Management Agency has conducted the largest ever preparedness program, directly engaging over 2½ thousand people through information sessions and running crisis scenarios to get us ready for the season ahead. This week, I'm also speaking with parliamentarians across this place, on both sides of the aisle—and I thank all parliamentarians for this—to talk about the risks that their communities are facing and how they can prepare.</para>
<para>As Senator Grogan mentioned, we are already seeing an increased risk of bushfire in parts of South Australia and crossing over into Victoria. We've also seen bushfires impacting Western Australia, the Northern Territory and parts of Queensland. On the east coast, communities are preparing for a season of severe storms and east coast lows. Up north, we can expect a higher than average chance of severe cyclones possibly drawing further south than usual as a consequence of the very warm conditions.</para>
<para>We should all be prepared for the risk of heatwaves. These are the largest killer of all of the natural hazards. They are a risk to communities in New South Wales and Queensland today. We can all play our part as parliamentarians to inform our communities by amplifying official sources and helping our communities to be prepared and to be ready in case of natural disaster.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Grogan, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister please outline for us what the Albanese government is doing to better prepare Australians for this higher risk weather season and for the increasing risk of more severe and intense natural disasters?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Albanese government has invested in a range of new capabilities that will provide more support to states and territories to respond to natural disasters. These include our aerial capabilities. We have, of course, a large air tanker, and this year it can be reconfigured both for firefighting and to deal with other emergencies. But we also have three heavy-lift helicopters, and it's the first time that the Commonwealth has invested in these multi-use aerial capabilities.</para>
<para>We're also investing in the National Emergency Management Stockpile, and we have more resources in that stockpile, which include large generators, water filtration and purification equipment, water pumps and flood barriers. We're investing in risk reduction through our Disaster Ready Fund to help communities better prepare for future disasters, and nearly $750 million in Commonwealth and state funding has been already provided through this fund, with projects from Queensland to Western Australia and from the Territory to Tasmania. These are really critical steps that we all can support to assist our communities to deal with these challenges. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Grogan, second supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Minister. That's really helpful. Can you tell us why it is that only the Albanese Labor government can be trusted to help communities respond to and recover from natural disasters?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Unlike those opposite, our government believes in the science of climate change, and what that means is that we understand that natural disasters are increasing in severity and in frequency as a consequence of these changes to our climate. It is one of the reasons that we take our commitment to reduce emissions as seriously as we do. It's also why we are taking serious steps, and have since coming to government, to rebuild trust with communities—trust that was, regrettably, lost under the previous government. We want communities to know that in a disaster the Commonwealth government will be there to support them, and that has included building good, strong working relationships with all states and territories to ensure that we can prepare effectively together, respond quickly together and recover well together.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Change</title>
          <page.no>5397</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Industry and Science, Senator Farrell. In his 1917 paper on the quantum theory of radiation, Einstein said the energy transferred by radiation is so small that it always drops out as compared to other processes. This is in line with his 1905 mass energy equivalence principle that says mass is energy. Given the mass of an electron is 1,800 times smaller than that of a proton, how can a photon absorbed by an electron in a carbon dioxide molecule at a wavelength of 14.8 microns and energy of 1.4 to the power of negative 20 joules be expected to increase the temperature of the surrounding 6,600 nitrogen and oxygen molecules by one degree without violating the first law of thermodynamics?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll grant leave for Senator Rennick to ask the question again if Senator Farrell needs it.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sure Senator Farrell does not need it. Senator Whish-Wilson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order, President: I wonder if the Senate could assist with a whiteboard for Senator Farrell.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Whish-Wilson. Minister Farrell.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Rennick for the opportunity to revisit my youth and my studies. You might be interested, Senator Rennick, that the university I went to, Adelaide university—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ciccone</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What year?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was a good year—honours the Braggs. They were two wonderful scientists, father and son, who both won Nobel prizes. I have to say, Senator Rennick, I am slightly at a loss to uncover a question that I can answer. But can I say this: we have a fantastic minister in this area, Minister Husic, and I would be absolutely certain that, when I speak to him after this, as I shall, he will very quickly have an answer for you. I will come back to you with a thorough answer on this question.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, first supplementary?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Carbon dioxide has four frequencies that absorb photons: one incoming infrared band at 2.8 microns, one non-polar band at 4.3 microns and two outgoing long-wave bands at 14.8 microns. Planck's law states that the energy of a wavelength is inversely proportional to its frequency, meaning that CO2 absorbs incoming photons with five times more energy than the outgoing photons it absorbs. Why is this cooling by CO2 overlooked by climate alarmists?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Rennick for his first supplementary question. I think the science in this area is reasonably well settled. The science in this area says that global warming is an issue, and it's an issue that all governments have to address and, in particular, that the Australian government has decided to address. One of the things that I've been very focused on in my trade area is ensuring that we participate in the process to get to net zero. How are we doing that? Well, Australia is once again the lucky country because we have vast resources of the critical minerals that are going to be— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, a second supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Despite claiming the science is settled, the CSIRO has stated there are 40 different models to calculate net zero. This is despite only one equation describes the relationship between gas and temperature—the ideal gas law: PV equals nRT, which can be broken down as mass times acceleration equals nRT. Acceleration represents gravity, which is the force that traps molecules in the atmosphere. Given this fact, why do climate alarmists believe some mythical greenhouse traps heat when it's actually gravity?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick has asked a very genuine question, and I think it deserves a genuine answer. Unfortunately, I'm not the person who knows the answer. But I can assure you, Senator Rennick, that I take your questions seriously, even if some of our colleagues behind me don't. I do take the question seriously, Senator Rennick, and I will raise these issues with the science minister and come back to you with a formal answer in due course.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Subject to Senator Birmingham not wanting the last 15 seconds, I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">N</inline><inline font-style="italic">otice</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>5398</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environmental Defenders Office</title>
          <page.no>5398</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by ministers today to questions without notice asked by Opposition senators today relating to the Environmental Defenders Office.</para></quote>
<para>It is of note that again we are debating the question of the government's funding of the Environmental Defender's Office. As we have seen previously, through a judgement in the court in Western Australia, Justice Charlesworth said in her judgement that the EDO's evidence was so lacking in integrity that no weight can be placed on it. Among other things, this organisation has been granted $8.3 million by the government—and Minister Wong did acknowledge during her responses during question time that it was based on an election commitment. I think we have to accept that a government will want to keep its election commitments. But the question that has then been asked is, what is it that an organisation has to do for a government to say it is no longer fit to receive funding from the government? What does an organisation have to do?</para>
<para>This is an organisation that has been involved in distorting and misrepresenting evidence, an organisation that has manipulated and coached traditional owners to fabricate evidence to put towards a court case. They portray themselves, by their name, as environmental defenders, yet they are nothing more than a job-destroying, anti-industry activist group. You can't describe them any other way than that. Yet this government continues to fund them.</para>
<para>As time goes on we see more and more circumstances surrounding this organisation, of whom Justice Charlesworth said, in the case in relation to Santos, that their evidence was so lacking in integrity that no weight could be placed on it. But the government continues to put weight on the evidence of this organisation. We saw it in the McPhillamys gold case. The EDO were involved in providing the evidence and preparing the evidence that this government relied on to stop the project. Yet Justice Charlesworth said, in the case involving Santos, that their evidence was so lacking that no weight could be placed on it. Yet this government continues to take their advice.</para>
<para>In my home state of Tasmania, the EDO was one of the organisations that wrote to Minister Plibersek in relation to salmon farming. Minister Plibersek could have said—and should have said—'No, the decision made by Minister Tony Burke in 2011 can stand.' But no: 'We'll overturn that; we'll have another look, create uncertainty for the salmon communities in Tasmania.' The minister has now kicked the can further down the road, for another year—so, another Christmas of uncertainty for salmon farmers and the communities in my home state of Tasmania. Her decision was, again, based on evidence by the Environmental Defenders Office, an organisation whose evidence was, as Justice Charlesworth said, so lacking in integrity that no weight could be placed on it.</para>
<para>So, not only do we have a magistrate saying that in a judgement—and obviously there's further work to be done on that in the next few days—but Minister Plibersek has taken the word of this organisation on a number of occasions to make anti-industry, anti-community decisions, and the government continues to fund them. It seems that there is nothing that these organisations can't do to disqualify themselves from receiving funding from this government.</para>
<para>But, worse, as well as continuing to fund them, the government handed them $8.3 million in the 2022 budget papers. And through estimates we've learnt that the EDO are on track to receive $15 million from the government by the end of the decade. Despite their record—they're killing off projects; they're working to kill off projects—this government continues to take the EDO's advice in making negative decisions against our communities.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're talking about the Environmental Defenders Office funding, and we would be forgiven for thinking that not only is Christmas coming—we see a change from those opposite—but an election is coming. Let's put some details on the public record following on from the responses to questions given by Senator Wong. She quite clearly articulated that the issues that have been raised have been referred to the department, and obviously there is responsibility to make sure there's due process and that things are done according to contractual arrangements. But let's just remember that the EDO has been funded for 20 years, including under the Howard government, until it was cut by Mr Tony Abbott in 2013. So we already see what would be ahead of us under Mr Dutton, including here today, and the cuts that he would make.</para>
<para>We also know that when we go to an election and we make a commitment, we live by that commitment and we honour that commitment. Last financial year, 75 per cent of the EDO's income was from charitable donations. State and territory governments funded them as well. As with any organisation in receipt of public funds, I, along with the Labor government, expect the Environmental Defenders Office to demonstrate the highest possible ethical and professional standards. That's what we do—without using a white board.</para>
<para>As I said, there was a theme here today in the questions asked by those opposite. We're leading up to an election, so we know that, yes, the EDO is in the firing line. We also know that Mr Dutton, from his record when he was in government, is very quick to cut funding, so let's try and understand why the opposition are targeting this organisation—because who is next on their list to cut funding to? Will they do as they've done in the past?</para>
<para>It's interesting to have my fellow Tasmanian senator from the opposition here today, because in 2013 your government cut funding to Launceston Community Legal Centre and they had to halve their staff. That's what you did. North Queensland Women's Legal Service in Herbert was unable to service two-thirds of its case load. That was in response to a Liberal government. The Gold Coast Community Legal Centre faced losing both of its specialist domestic violence lawyers despite overwhelming demand.</para>
<para>Instead of attacking us in this chamber, why don't you set out your plans to make cuts, which you will do. We know that that's what Mr Dutton did when he was Minister for Health. We know he cut billions of dollars out of health. Yet they come in here and, at every opportunity, play political games, when they could have supported good legislation that is trying to address the issues that our community is facing at the moment, with the cost-of-living pressures. What do they do each and every time? They vote against it. What did they do when there was an opportunity to support early educators in this place? How did they vote on that legislation? They voted no. What did the Liberals and the Greens do for a whole week in this chamber? They cozied up together to stop a vote on funding for housing in this country that would ensure social and affordable housing for those Australians that want it.</para>
<para>So the one thing that those opposite lack is credibility. They can't be trusted. They will come in and they will cut, cut, cut—because that's their record. It's in their DNA. So, if I was working in any legal service around this country, I would be very concerned about electing the opposition as the next government, because people know how arrogant Mr Dutton is. They know they can't trust Mr Dutton. We know from past experience what is going to happen if they— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a delight to follow Senator Polley, I can tell you! I always enjoy listening to what Senator Polley has to say. That apparently was the government's best defence of what is one of the most outrageous policies this government has.</para>
<para>We asked in question time why this government continues to fund that outrageously ridiculous organisation, the Environmental Defenders Office. The answer we got from the minister was, 'It's because we made an election promise.' They said it in that serious and sensitive tone that was taken today, because they didn't want to be needled on it, because they know it is a bad decision. They just wanted to point to an election commitment. Now, let's not pay any attention to all of the other promises they made before the election. The promise to take $275 off every power bill for every household across the country isn't a promise they're going to honour at all, I can tell you, but regardless of what the EDO does the government will fund them for eternity.</para>
<para>Let's revisit what the EDO has done. They're at the heart of many bad decisions in this country and many of the appeals we find in our courts of law around job-creating, resource-providing, economy-driving projects. Mining, forestry, fishing—you name it; the EDO are in there doing their darnedest to prevent these projects from getting up, and they will go to any lengths. We've already heard about the Santos Barossa case, where Justice Natalie Charlesworth eviscerated the EDO and they were caught flat-footed. They'd fabricated evidence. They'd coached witnesses. We now have written evidence about what was happening here. So-called academics were working in concert with the EDO to figure out where they should put a serpent on a map to affect the outcome. They didn't want to rely on science. They didn't want to reply on anthropology. They just wanted to confect evidence to get the outcome they wanted. That is an outrageous breach of any standard required of a legal professional.</para>
<para>The minister, in defending this appalling, job-destroying organisation and Labor's taxpayer-funding of this organisation, said that there was a review done. Yes, there was a review done, and some conditions put in place, but it has changed nothing. That same group, which did exactly what I've just described in the Santos case, has been the instigator of the uncertainty facing the salmon industry in Tasmania. I'm disappointed Senator Polley isn't here to hear me talk about this. I'm sure she agrees with me that this organisation is jeopardising the jobs of 5,000 Tasmanians through confected evidence, making things up. The government blindly defends this organisation, and the money has no end date on it, either, for what it's worth; it just continues to flow. I asked at estimates: when will this funding run out? Never, it turns out.</para>
<para>It's not just that. We heard Senator Colbeck talk about McPhillamys goldmine in Blayney, which we saw the EDO at the heart of as well. Eight hundred jobs, in this case, and a billion dollars of economic activity are gone, including hundreds of millions of dollars in royalties revenue for the state of New South Wales, which goes into hospitals, schools and roads. That's all gone, courtesy of the EDO.</para>
<para>This Labor government says: 'We want to have a future made in Australia. We want to see more things done here. We want better paying jobs for Australians. We want to value-add. We want to grow the economy.' But they will fund an organisation that, at its core, opposes these projects and does what it can to stop them, tripping up applications, frustrating the course of these assessments and approvals, causing unnecessary job losses and delaying good projects from going ahead. There is no justification for what this government is doing. I'll be very surprised if they recommit to funding the EDO. If they do, it means that they have learnt nothing about what is important to Australian workers and why we need to do what we can.</para>
<para>Reform the laws all you like around environmental approvals. It doesn't matter what you do when it comes to the laws. If you're funding organisations that are activists in the courtroom and simply want to frustrate and stop jobs from being created through these projects, then you are not going to get projects approved and jobs created. It just makes no sense to me. It rather makes me think that the Labor Environment Action Network have control when it comes to these decisions. It's an appalling decision, one that must be revisited. The fact that they blindly commit to ongoing funding of the EDO is beyond belief.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make my contribution to the debate. I just want to make it clear to the Senate that I was on the committee that looked into the Barossa gas proposal. It was a couple of years ago, in a previous parliament and that sort of stuff, but I just wanted to put that on the record. I also want to say, as a proud Western Australian, that gas and mining are essential to our economy and to the Australian economy. I do want to say very clearly on the record, before I go to the body of the debate, that mining jobs in Western Australia—everywhere you go in Western Australia you will see fluoro shirts. I may not have a great relationship with some mining companies—and that's personal because of their treatment of the trucking industry—but mining is not an enemy of mine. Gas is not an enemy of mine. The sooner we get it in this nation—there are certain members in this parliament who love to attack fossil fuels. You don't see them walking to work. They're in the air-conditioned BMW or they're sitting at the front of the pointy part of the aeroplane, but they still want to bag out fossil fuels. I wanted to get that on the record.</para>
<para>I will go to the case of Justice Charlesworth with the Santos case. I'm not going to go into it too deeply, but I'm not going to sugarcoat it. If there's a rotten apple, sort it out. I pride myself on my years as an owner operator. I pride myself on my years as a transport workers union organiser. I don't support rotten apples, and I don't support foul play like that. I'm glad that it was uncovered, and I'm glad of the actions taken.</para>
<para>In saying that, we'll now move on. As my colleague Senator Polley said so exquisitely no less than 10 minutes ago—clearly the EDO was in play when I first came into this building under the Howard government. The EDO was funded by the Howard government. I know it was the Abbott government—I think in about 2013—that defunded the EDO. We must not forget that, and we also must not forget, as Senator Polley made quite clear, it was an election commitment taken to the election by the Albanese opposition at the time. As much as some of those opposite might not like the idea, if you make an election commitment, sometimes there is an expectation from the good people of Australia that, if the opposition wins and gets into government, they will deliver on their promises. That might be a strange thing to some of those opposite, but the truth of the matter is that the Albanese Labor opposition was elected to government, and they delivered on their promise. They funded the EDO. We've heard the figures of $8 million.</para>
<para>I heard Senator Duniam's contribution, as well as the previous opposition speaker before that—something about another $15 million, as it came out at Senate estimates, until 2030. Colleagues, I've got to tell you, I'm not great at mathematics, but I've worked out that that's over five years away. They got $8 million this year, and there's another $15 million. That's only $3 million a year or something like that—crikey! Look at the work that the EDO has done, whether we like it or not. I want to quote a few figures here. It says here that 75 per cent of the EDO's income for the last financial year was from charitable donations, and state and territory governments fund the EDO too. There is a lot of buy in and there's a lot of partnership in that.</para>
<para>What we know is that without the funding for the Environmental Defenders Office, just 46 per cent of environmental approvals were approved on time previously. I know the frustration we share now, with the approval process taking too long to make sure it right, but it was only 46 per cent. With funding for the EDO—which we heard earlier, but I want to reiterate—no less than 84 per cent of environmental approvals are on time. How do you argue against that when you've got to have a bit of transparency and accountability?</para>
<para>Seriously, some of the arguments in this building, particularly this week—thankfully there are no children present now, and I hope they weren't here earlier on, when we saw some of the shenanigans being performed by some of the senators—are quite embarrassing. I did want to get up here. I wanted to have the opportunity to correct the record. I wanted to have the opportunity, through you, Madam Acting Deputy President, to actually make a contribution as a long-time senator in this chamber with some grace, with some dignity and without the screaming and the yelling that I've heard here in the last week. Coming up to Christmas, I tell you what: I don't know if anyone can sit here for any longer if we have to put up with the performances that we've seen here. I thank my colleagues for listening and giving me the opportunity to put forward my case. I support the EDO.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The standards of the organisation that you fund are the standards that you accept. What we heard in question time today was essentially a failure of the Labor government to properly condemn the EDO for their actions. It was also a failure of this Labor government to commit to withdrawing the funding for the EDO. Therefore, you can only assume this Labor Party government accepts the standards that the EDO have put on display not just in relation to the case in the Northern Territory but across Australia.</para>
<para>The Environmental Defenders Office have defiled environmentalists across the country through—one of my colleagues used the phrase 'shenanigans'—their spiv-like, shonky, charlatan-like behaviour. If it was a private business, the EDO would be sold up and the administrators would be appointed. Instead, it is being kept alive notwithstanding the serious issues of misgovernance and—I'm going to say—malfeasance within the organisation. It's being kept alive because the taxpayers of Australia are funding this organisation to the tune of millions of dollars.</para>
<para>I'm very proud to say that the Liberal and National parties will not fund the EDO. We will stop funding the EDO. We believe that the taxpayers of Australia are doing it pretty tough at the moment because (a) they've got a Labor government, (b) they've got a Labor government and (c) they've got a Labor government—but in particular they've got a Labor government who have suddenly discovered, thanks to the Labor Party secretary doing a bit of research, that there's a cost-of-living crisis out there. Everyone's been doing it tough for a couple of years. They're working longer hours. Everything is costing more. They've got a Labor government who are hiding in the Canberra bubble—or the Canberra world, as I like to call it—and not understanding what's going on out there, and they see that their taxes are being spent to fund an organisation called the Environmental Defender's Office. Justice Charlesworth said the EDO's evidence was 'so lacking in integrity that no weight can be placed on it'. Justice Charlesworth went on to say the EDO was involved in 'distorting and misrepresenting evidence, and, furthermore, they manipulated and coached a number of traditional owners'.</para>
<para>I certainly hope that, when the legal matters come to an end, any legal practitioners who were involved in this matter are taken before the relevant professional bodies of the state or territory with a view to their practicing certificates being removed, because any legal practitioner, or anyone who has spent a couple of days in law school, will know that the conduct of those lawyers within the EDO is the conduct of people who should be on the other side of any legal framework—that is, they should be the defendants rather than the council defending them. It is actually shameful what these legal practitioners have done. It is not just the misuse of money; it is the misuse of their power as lawyers. They are people who are supposed to defend the rule of law, but instead these legal practitioners have done everything in their power to defile the rule of law and to defile any Australian who may have an interest in how our society is governed. For that reason, the EDO should be defunded and, in an ideal world, wound up, sold up and put in a rubbish bin.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Immigration Law</title>
          <page.no>5402</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations (Senator Watt) to a question without notice I asked today relating to migration.</para></quote>
<para>The three pieces of legislation that Labor's trying to ram through on migration in an ugly deal with the coalition are some of the most extreme pieces of antimigrant legislation that this parliament has seen since the abolition of the White Australia policy. Today we've literally seen the opposition bragging about how they are running the immigration system for the government. The question we asked the government was: why are Labor, even when they're in government, still having migration policy driven by Mr Peter Dutton? To the government's shame, it failed to even pretend to answer any of those questions.</para>
<para>The closest we got to an answer about why Labor is working with Mr Peter Dutton to deport parents and leave their kids, even if they're Australian citizens, without parents here in the country; the closest we got to hearing why Labor is working with Mr Peter Dutton to put dogs into detention centres and to stripsearch people without a warrant; the closest we got to hearing from Labor about why they're working with Mr Peter Dutton to be able to cook up deals with Nauru or PNG or any country on the planet, to forcibly deport people without any protections for their human rights—the closest we got to an answer was Labor saying the Greens wouldn't work with them to do any of that, so they had to work with Peter Dutton to put in place all these mean and nasty and appalling laws.</para>
<para>We say to Labor we were never going to work with you to put asylum seekers in jail or to cut deals to deport parents and leave kids here without family. We weren't going to work with you to have people whose only crime is seeking asylum stripsearched, or to put dogs into detention centres. We weren't. But the Greens have repeatedly said that we will work with anyone with a conscience in Labor and anyone with a conscience in other parties in this place to protect multicultural Australia and to stop the fear and division around migrants and refugees that now the Albanese government is doing in tandem, hand in hand, with Peter Dutton. We say to Labor: be better. You can't beat the politics of Dutton by trying to wedge him on the Right. You can't out-Dutton Mr Peter Dutton, and you don't win the case by surrendering to your opponents. On migration, the Labor Party in government are like a dog whose tail is being wagged by Mr Peter Dutton in opposition.</para>
<para>Looking at the results of the recent US election, you would have thought that a party that pretends to be progressive, like Labor, would have worked out that the answer isn't to follow Mr Donald Trump into punching down against migrants. You would have thought the lesson to learn from that is don't follow Trump style politics to punch down on migrants but instead make the case for decency. Make the case to resist the ugly far-right politics of the coalition. But, instead, we are seeing a generational attack on migrants and people seeking asylum.</para>
<para>And, I've got to tell you, this is not the first time Labor has done this. We've now seen repeatedly in Labor's history that they will do things the coalition had never dreamed of to attack the rights of multicultural Australia and people seeking asylum. It was Labor that came up with indefinite mandatory detention, a notorious ongoing human rights abuse. It was Labor that came up with offshore detention in PNG. It was Labor who made the rule that nobody coming here seeking asylum by sea will ever be able to find a home. And now it's Labor that is bringing in Trump style travel bans, deporting parents—leaving Australian kids without a mum and a dad—and putting dogs and stripsearches into immigration detention centres. That's Albanese government legacy. That's Labor's legacy for 2024.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PETITIONS</title>
        <page.no>5402</page.no>
        <type>PETITIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Criminal Code Amendment (Genocide, Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5403</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>5403</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>5403</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>5407</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice in general terms of my intention on the next day of sitting to move a motion relating to the routine of business.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice in general terms of my intention to introduce a private senators' bill on the next day of sitting.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>5407</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation I give notice of my intention to, at the giving of notices on the next day of sitting, withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1, for 13 sitting days after today, proposing the disallowance of the Explosives Regulations 2024.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>5407</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>5407</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That divisions may take place after 6.30 pm today.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>5407</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>5407</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5407</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Reporting Date</title>
          <page.no>5407</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If there are no objections, the business is postponed.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Senators' Interests Committee</title>
          <page.no>5408</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>5408</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) so much of the resolution on the establishment of the Register of Senators' Qualifications agreed to on 3 April 2019 be suspended as would prevent a matter being referred; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the matter of Senator Payman's qualifications under the Constitution be referred to the Standing Committee of Senators' Interests for inquiry and report.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The resolution establishing the Register of Senators' Qualifications placed procedural constraints on the use of the Senate's power to refer a matter relating to the qualification of a senator to the Court of Disputed Returns. This approach was recommended by the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters and seeks to balance the need for compliance with the need for certainty.</para>
<para>The committee reasoned that full disclosure by candidates at the time of their nomination would better inform those seeking to challenge a successful candidate's qualification by petition directly to the Court of Disputed Returns within the existing 40-day window after the return of the writs. The government does not support suspending the resolution to get around these well-considered constraints.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that the motion standing in the name of Senator Hanson regarding a reference to the Senate Standing Committee of Senators' Interests be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:43]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>3</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I. (Teller)</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>5409</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Withdrawal</title>
          <page.no>5409</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Rennick, I withdraw business of the Senate notice of motion No. 3.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5409</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Population and its Impacts in Australia Committee</title>
          <page.no>5409</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Appointment</title>
            <page.no>5409</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>256136</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>DAVID POCOCK () (): I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That a select committee, to be known as the Select Committee on Population and Its Impacts in Australia, be established to inquire into the effects of population growth and management in Australia, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the relationship between population growth and housing availability and affordability, including the effects on urban density, housing supply, rental markets and accessibility to affordable housing options;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the adequacy and sustainability of infrastructure development to support a growing population, including transport, health services, education facilities and utilities, as well as strategies to improve public services and quality of life for everyone;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the economic benefits and challenges of population growth, including the impact on labour markets, economic growth, productivity and innovation, as well as potential benefits and challenges for job availability and workforce distribution;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the environmental impacts of population growth, with a focus on an Australian population safely within ecological limits, including effects on biodiversity, natural resource consumption and greenhouse gas emissions, as well as opportunities for sustainable population management and environmental conservation;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the implications of population growth for First Nations communities, including impacts on land, cultural heritage and access to health, education, housing and other services;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the effects of population management policies on regional and rural communities and strategies to incentivise regional migration where needed, including ensuring the availability of support services for new migrants and emerging communities in regional and rural areas;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) international best practice for sustainable population growth management, including policies that balance economic, social, environmental and human rights priorities to ensure populations remain within safe ecological limits;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the role of migration in population growth and its impact on diversity, multiculturalism and social cohesion, including the effectiveness of policies and programs to support positive settlement outcomes for new migrants;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the effectiveness of past migration programs in delivering skills in areas that are most needed;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) current and proposed federal and state population management frameworks, including coordination among agencies;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(k) the role of local governments and alignment with international sustainability and human rights commitments and conventions;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(l) opportunities for policy reform, including housing policy, urban planning, environmental regulations and migration policies to better manage the impacts of population growth and maintain ecological balance; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(m) any other related matters.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That the committee present its final report by 30 November 2025.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) That the committee consist of 6 senators, as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) two nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) two nominated by the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) one nominated by the Leader of the Australian Greens in the Senate; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) Senator David Pocock.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) That:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) participating members may be appointed to the committee on the nomination of the Leader of the Government in the Senate, the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate or any minority party or independent senator;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) participating members may participate in hearings of evidence and deliberations of the committee and have all the rights of members of the committee but may not vote on any questions before the committee; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) a participating member shall be taken to be a member of a committee for the purpose of forming a quorum of the committee if 3 members of the committee constituting a quorum are not present.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) That if a member of the committee is unable to attend a meeting of the committee, that member may in writing to the chair appoint a participating member to act as a substitute member of the committee at that meeting. If the member is incapacitated or unavailable, a letter to the chair appointing a participating member to act as a substitute member of the committee may be signed on behalf of the member by the leader of the party or group on whose nomination the member was appointed to the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) That 3 members of the committee constitute quorum, where one member present is a minority party or independent senator, one member was appointed on the nomination of the Leader of the Government in the Senate and one member was appointed on the nomination of the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) That the committee may proceed to the dispatch of business notwithstanding that all members have not been duly nominated and appointed and notwithstanding any vacancy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) That Senator David Pocock be appointed as chair of the committee, and the committee elect as its deputy chair a member nominated by the Leader of the Government in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(9) That the deputy chair shall act as chair when the chair is absent from a meeting of the committee, or the position of chair is temporarily vacant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(10) That the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, may appoint another member of the committee to act as chair during the temporary absence of both the chair and deputy chair at a meeting of the committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(11) That, in the event of an equally divided vote, the chair, or the deputy chair when acting as chair, have a casting vote.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(12) That the committee have power to appoint subcommittees consisting of 3 or more of its members, and to refer to any such subcommittee any of the matters which the committee is empowered to consider.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(13) That 2 members of any subcommittee constitute quorum where one member present is a minority party or independent senator, and one member was appointed on the nomination of the Leader of the Government in the Senate or on the nomination of the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(14) That the committee and any subcommittee, notwithstanding any prorogation of the Parliament or dissolution of the House of Representatives, have:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) power to send for and examine persons and documents;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) power to move from place to place;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) power to sit in public or in private; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) leave to report from time to time its proceedings and the evidence taken and such interim recommendations as it may deem fit.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(15) That the committee be provided with all necessary staff, facilities and resources and be empowered to appoint persons with specialist knowledge for the purposes of the committee with the approval of the President.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(16) That the committee be empowered to print from day to day such papers and evidence as may be ordered by it, and a daily Hansard be published of such proceedings as take place in public.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a one-minute statement.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<para>Question negatived.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5410</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee</title>
          <page.no>5410</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5410</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care, by no later than midday on Thursday, 28 November 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) formal documentation from 1 to 15 October 2024 inclusive (correspondence, information briefs, ministerial submissions) to the office of the Minister for Health and Aged Care (the minister) from the department or the Pharmaceutical Benefits Advisory Committee (PBAC) regarding the need to defer PBAC applications from the March 2025 meeting agenda; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) formal documentation from 1 to 15 October 2024 inclusive (correspondence, information briefs, ministerial submissions) to the minister's office from the department or the PBAC regarding the 3-day PBAC meeting having a maximum total number of cost-effective analysis submissions, as stated on the Pharmaceutical Benefits Scheme website.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Independent Review of Commonwealth Funding for Strategic Policy Work</title>
          <page.no>5410</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5410</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Paterson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) order for production of documents no. 664 (the order) agreed to by the Senate on 19 November 2024, requiring the Minister representing the Prime Minister to table the completed report of the independent review of Commonwealth funding for strategic policy work led by Mr Peter Varghese AO (the Varghese Review), and all written submissions provided to the secretariat of the Varghese Review, has not been complied with, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister stated in response to the order that the release could 'adversely impact comprehensive and candid discussion by ministers as part of Cabinet deliberations';</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) rejects the grounds the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister has provided as to why the order cannot be complied with, noting that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the Senate should only accept a claim of public interest immunity on the basis of Cabinet confidentiality if it is established that disclosure of the documents sought would reveal Cabinet deliberations,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the disclosure of the documents that are the subject of the order does not constitute a disclosure of deliberations of Cabinet, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the Government stating that it intends to release the Varghese Review at the appropriate time is not an acceptable ground to withhold information from the Senate; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) requires the Minister representing the Prime Minister to comply with the order by no later than midday on 28 November 2024.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I appreciate that. The government is disappointed that Senator Paterson has chosen to proceed with this motion as it contains a number of incorrect statements and assertions, and we believe it should be withdrawn. I'm reminded of the words of Senator Birmingham, who told the Senate back in 2021:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The government holds the strong view that the documents and information sought would or could reasonably be expected to disclose the deliberations of the cabinet or a committee of the cabinet.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Online Gambling</title>
          <page.no>5411</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5411</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Sport, by no later than 4 December 2024, all written or digital correspondence, briefing notes, file notes, meeting notices, meeting agendas or minutes, or other records of interaction since 1 January 2024 related to online gambling reform, advertising reform for online gambling or the government response to the House of Representatives Standing Committee on Social Policy and Legal Affairs' report <inline font-style="italic">You win some, You lose more</inline> between the Minister for Sport and her office and any of the following organisations, including any of their employees or representatives:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) National Rugby League;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Australian Rugby League Commission;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Racing New South Wales;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) Racing Victoria;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) Australian Football League;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) Alliance for Gambling Reform;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) Gambling Harm Lived Experience Experts;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) Responsible Wagering Australia;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) Sportsbet;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) Pointsbet;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(k) Bet365; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(l) Tabcorp.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>COVID-19: Vaccination</title>
          <page.no>5411</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5411</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) freedom of information (FOI) 4558 made to the Therapeutics Goods Administration (TGA) requesting batch safety testing data on COVID-19 vaccines was returned fully redacted, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the TGA has now released data covering contamination in COVID-19 vaccines after the period covered by FOI 4558; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Health and Aged Care (Senator Gallagher), by no later than 10 am on Thursday, 28 November 2024, FOI 4558 without redaction other than personally identifiable information.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that general business notice of motion No. 709, standing in the name of Senator Roberts, for an order for the production of documents relating to COVID-19 vaccines be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:53]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>26</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D. N.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names />
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aged Care</title>
          <page.no>5412</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5412</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Aged Care, by no later than 4 December 2024, all written or digital correspondence, briefing notes, file notes, meeting notices, meeting agendas or minutes, or other records of interaction since 1 October 2023 related to the implementation of care minutes in residential aged care between the Minister for Aged Care and her office and any of the following organisations, including any of their employees or representatives:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Aged & Community Care Providers Association;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Bupa Aged Care;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Estia Health;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) Bolton Clarke;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) Opal Healthcare;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) Superior Care Group;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) Southern Cross Care; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) Regis Aged Care.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>5413</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>5413</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HODGINS-MAY</name>
    <name.id>310860</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move general business notice of motion No. 712:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That general business notice of motion no. 711, relating to the public release of economic modelling on the impact of caps and curfews on Brisbane Airport, be called on immediately after formal business on Wednesday, 27 November 2024, take precedence over all other business and be determined without amendment or debate.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion be agreed.</para>
<para><inline font-style="italic">A division having been called and the </inline> <inline font-style="italic">bells being rung—</inline></para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Could we just halt the division? I was under the impression that this is No. 711, on Brisbane airport economic modelling. Senator Hodgins-May, that's your first one?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HODGINS-MAY</name>
    <name.id>310860</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I think the wording on my sheet might be wrong. My apologies.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to make sure that we're dividing on the right thing.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HODGINS-MAY</name>
    <name.id>310860</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that general business notice of motion No. 711 be taken as a formal motion.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. That's alright. There was some confusion at this end of the chamber. The division continues.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Halt the division. Yes, Senator McKim. I have just worked out what we're doing, so I'm going to halt the division. There are two motions in the name of Senator Hodgins-May. I thank the table staff for alerting me to this. We should have gone to No. 712 before No. 711, which is the substantive consideration of notice of motion No. 711, and then we were voting on No. 712 before coming back to No. 711, because one deals with the consideration of the previous motion. I think No. 711 was moved, but that was my error. So I'm going to start again. I apologise.</para>
<para><inline font-style="italic">An honourable senator interjecting</inline>—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know. It has been a long week. I'm going to ask Senator Hodgins-May to move No. 712, and then we will wind our way to No. 711.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HODGINS-MAY</name>
    <name.id>310860</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move general business notice of motion No. 712:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That general business notice of motion no. 711, relating to the public release of economic modelling on the impact of caps and curfews on Brisbane Airport, be called on immediately after formal business on Wednesday, 27 November 2024, take precedence over all other business and be determined without amendment or debate.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that notice of motion No. 712, standing in the name of Senator Hodgins-May—consideration of notice of motion No. 711—be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:00]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>13</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Payman, F.</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>22</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5414</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Anti-Corruption Commission</title>
          <page.no>5414</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5414</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Attorney-General, by no later than 5 pm on Thursday, 5 December 2024, the following documents held by the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC) relating to a matter involving Thales (the subject of Auditor-General's report no. 47 of 2023-24) and the contract subject to this review, including:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the terms of reference of any NACC review;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) all documents relating to the declaration of conflicts of interest, including all documents, emails and briefings that relate to management of conflicts of interest; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) all communications to and from the Department of Defence and the NACC regarding Defence's review of the matter.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That once received by the Clerk or the President, documents returned and any correspondence responding to the order shall be deemed to have been presented to the Senate, and publication of the documents is authorised.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a very short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On 13 November 2024 the NACC published a note on its website stating that the referral from the Department of Defence relating to the Thales contract remained under consideration in accordance with the commission's usual processes. As such, it would be inappropriate to demand information about the NACC's consideration of this matter, because it could interfere with an ongoing NACC process. The parliament has legislated robust oversight of the NACC, in the form of the joint committee and the inspector, plus the normal accountability mechanisms of the Senate. All of us in this place have a responsibility to safeguard the independence of the NACC and the integrity of its activities, so the government will not be supporting this motion.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question before the Senate is that general business No. 713, an order for the production of documents standing in the name of Senator Shoebridge, be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:07]<br />(The Deputy President—Senator McLachlan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>37</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                  <name>Antic, A.</name>
                  <name>Askew, W. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Babet, R.</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                  <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                  <name>Canavan, M. J.</name>
                  <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R. M.</name>
                  <name>Cox, D.</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                  <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                  <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                  <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S. E.</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                  <name>McKim, N. J.</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                  <name>Payman, F.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                  <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G.</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sharma, D. N.</name>
                  <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                  <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                  <name>Tyrrell, T. M.</name>
                  <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>15</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                  <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                  <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                  <name>Green, N. L.</name>
                  <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                  <name>Polley, H.</name>
                  <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                  <name>Wong, P.</name>
                  <name>Brockman, W. E.</name>
                  <name>Pratt, L. C.</name>
                  <name>Davey, P. M.</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                  <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                  <name>Hume, J.</name>
                  <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J.</name>
                  <name>Watt, M. P.</name>
                  <name>Nampijinpa Price, J. S.</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J. W.</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Attorney-General's Department</title>
          <page.no>5415</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5415</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHOEBRIDGE</name>
    <name.id>169119</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Attorney-General, by no later than 5 pm on 3 December 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a copy of the ACIL Allen report on the impact of privacy laws on business; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) all briefing notes, speaking notes, emails and other correspondence regarding the publication or non-publication of the report that is held by the Attorney-General and his office and the Attorney-General's Department.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That once received by the Clerk or the President, documents returned and any correspondence responding to the order shall be deemed to have been presented to the Senate, and publication of the documents is authorised.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Industry, Science and Resources</title>
          <page.no>5415</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5415</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Kovacic, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Industry and Science, by no later than midday on 20 December 2024, the following documents:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the unsolicited proposal PsiQuantum provided to the Government in November 2022;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) Ministerial Submission MS22-002175;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the non-disclosure agreement (NDA) between the Australian Government and PsiQuantum, signed in March 2023, and any other versions of the NDA updated at other times;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the list of ministerial submissions from the Department of Industry, Science and Resources (the department), Science and Technology Group, including the Office of the Chief Scientist, listing the reference number, date sent to the minister's office and title, for the time periods listed below (noting this is a request for a list of briefs but not requesting the underlying briefs), similar to the list of briefs already provided for other periods of time:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) 1 December 2022 to 30 April 2023, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) 1 October to 30 November 2024;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the department's expression of interest assessment document that was completed as the market testing process for the PsiQuantum deal;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the Deloitte analysis which informed the PsiQuantum investment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) all iterations of the probity risk matrix created by the department and/or the external probity adviser, excluding personal details, related to the development of the PsiQuantum investment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) a document that lists in detail the technology milestones and timeframes associated with the delivery of PsiQuantum's quantum computer, including but not limited to the planning approvals process, the sod turn, the construction of the buildings, the detailed description of the computer that will be delivered by 2027, the number of qubits the computer will have in 2027 and when customers will begin using the computer;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) information that details the calculation, categorisation and description of the 400 jobs that were announced with the PsiQuantum investment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(j) information that describes the role and employment conditions of the independent technology adviser (who will independently assess PsiQuantum's technology for the purpose of meeting commercial terms), including estimated dates of employment and dates of milestones; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(k) the Senate estimates preparation documents as well as the documents used on the day, as they relate to Quantum Computing, PsiQuantum and matters related to PsiQuantum as used in preparation by the Secretary, the Deputy Secretary for Science and Technology and the Chief Scientist for the November Senate estimates hearings.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>5416</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5416</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on 28 November 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the number of government consultations undertaken by the Department of Education (the department) that required participants to sign non-disclosure agreements since the start of the parliamentary term;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the subject matter of the consultations that required participants to sign non-disclosure agreements since the start of the parliamentary term;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the number of non-disclosure agreements signed by industry sector organisations and other stakeholders as a condition of participating in government consultation undertaken by the department since the start of the parliamentary term;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the number of industry sector organisations and other stakeholders that refused to sign non-disclosure agreements as a condition of participating in government consultation undertaken by the department since the start of the parliamentary term; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the number of breaches of government non-disclosure agreements that have been legally pursued since the start of the parliamentary term and actions taken by the department.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion be agreed to.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">A division </inline> <inline font-style="italic">having been called and the bells being rung—</inline></para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Gallagher</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to cancel the division.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency</title>
          <page.no>5416</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5416</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on 28 November 2024, copies of the letter sent by the Chief Commissioner of the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency to universities on 4 October 2024 reminding universities of their obligations regarding student and staff safety.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—We're opposing this motion because the document being sought is already available on the agency's website, so you don't need an OPD for it. It's there.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Education</title>
          <page.no>5416</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5416</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Henderson, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Education, by no later than 5 pm on 28 November 2024, copies of each draft of the Universities Accord final report provided to the Department of Education (the department) or the Minister for Education (the minister) (which includes his office) and comments, feedback or advice on each draft provided by the department and the minister or his office.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Avoca Drive Upgrade</title>
          <page.no>5417</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5417</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government, by no later than 10 am on 28 November 2024, all correspondence between federal and New South Wales government representatives since 1 January 2021 to 25 November 2024 relating to the Avoca Drive upgrade project, including correspondence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Prime Minister (Mr Albanese);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Minister for Infrastructure, Transport, Regional Development and Local Government (Ms C King);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the member for Robertson (Dr Reid);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the Premier of New South Wales;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) the New South Wales Minister for Roads; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the member for Terrigal (Mr Crouch).</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</title>
        <page.no>5417</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF PUBLIC IMPORTANCE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Cost of Living</title>
          <page.no>5417</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A letter has been received from Senator Kovacic:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I propose that the following matter of public importance be submitted to the Senate for discussion:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After three Albanese Labor budgets, most Australians will go into Christmas and 2025 worse off, with weaker real household incomes and struggling through a record-breaking household recession.</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clocks in line with the informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KOVACIC</name>
    <name.id>306168</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we approach Christmas, Australians should be looking forward to a season of joy, celebration and togetherness, yet, under the Albanese Labor government, the reality for many is far from festive. Families are grappling with how to afford what can only be described as a cost-of-living Christmas, as the weight of this crisis bites deeper than ever. Australia is now enduring the longest per capita recession since records began. Six consecutive quarters of negative GDP per capita growth have left households struggling. Let me remind those opposite that, while they may dispute the technicalities of what constitutes a recession, rationalisation does not change the lived reality of Australians. Ignoring a problem doesn't mean it doesn't exist, and it doesn't make it go away.</para>
<para>This economic crisis is not just a statistic. It is a stark reflection of Labor's poor economic management. Under this government, real household incomes have fallen consistently, with disposable income down nine per cent since March 2022. Living standards have dropped 8.7 per cent over that same time, leaving Australians worse off than ever, despite working harder, paying more and facing higher taxes.</para>
<para>For many Australians, Christmas—our holiday season—is traditionally a time to relax, spend time with loved ones and enjoy the fruits of their hard work. However, this cherished time has increasingly become a source of stress. Jobseeking site Indeed reports a significant rise in searches for festive season roles compared to previous years, a sign of the growing financial strain on Australian households. The Salvation Army paints an even grimmer picture. Of those reaching out for food assistance this Christmas, 55 per cent will be doing so for the first time. These are people who are working but can't afford to pay their bills, and they can't afford to buy food to celebrate Christmas. Loneliness, anxiety and stress will affect 35 per cent of people this Christmas, while spending on gifts is set to drop by 48 per cent as families struggle to scrape together the funds for even the basics that they need.</para>
<para>The basics are far from affordable. The prices of Christmas staples have gone up since this government came to power. Christmas ham is up 17 per cent; turkey, 14 per cent; prawns, 32 per cent per kilo; and the pavlova, 38 per cent. This is the human cost of Labor's so-called economic progress. This Christmas, Australia will feel the weight of these costs. They'll see it in the empty seats at their table, as many families can't afford to travel to be together. They'll feel it in the rising price of groceries and in the mounting anxiety of stretched budgets and limited options. Families will be made to feel like they have failed each other when they can't be together.</para>
<para>These struggles are not happening in isolation. They are the result of broader economic pressures that the government's policies have failed to address. While the private sector falters, the government has leaned heavily on public sector spending, leaving household consumption at its weakest since the depths of the pandemic. Persistently high inflation and record migration continue to dilute economic growth, offering little relief to everyday Australians. While those opposite are quick to take credit for budget surpluses, these are cold comfort to Australians struggling to pay their bills. A surplus doesn't fill a fridge, lower a power bill or ease financial pressure on families.</para>
<para>There is no point playing a blame game here, but let's be clear. This government has had three budgets to address these issues. This is their economy. This is their crisis. This isn't political pointscoring; these are facts, and it is the reality for far too many Australians. As we look towards 2025 and the next election, Australians must ask themselves: are they any better off than they were three years ago, with their mounting bills and increasing costs? Has their cost of living improved? The answer for most is a definite and absolute no.</para>
<para>Australians deserve better than this. Australians deserve a government that fights for their future, not one that erodes it. Australians deserve a government that acknowledges and accepts the problems that are a reality for them every single day, when they struggle to pay their bills and make decisions about what their family can and can't have—not a government that tells them, 'No, it's not really that bad,' because it is absolutely that bad.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Here we are again back in the chamber and we've got the crocodile tears from those opposite for Australian workers and for Australian families who are doing it tough. If those opposite were really serious and if indeed they had cared even a little bit for Australians and their families who are doing it tough, they wouldn't have spent the entire year in this chamber saying no—voting against every measure that this Labor government has brought into this chamber and this parliament. Seriously! I think you are truly underestimating the Australian people. They see right through you and they certainly see who Mr Dutton really is.</para>
<para>When it comes to the reality of helping Australians, why was it that, when you were in government, you left the country with an amazingly huge financial debt which was out of control? You talked about us having had three budgets. We're the first government—in how long?—to bring down a surplus. You promised it, but you never delivered it. We have brought down two consecutive budget surpluses.</para>
<para>We have put forward cheaper medicines to help people with the cost of living, and 60-day scripts, which will help with the cost of living. And what did you do when you were in government? You had a policy of keeping wages low. You say we've been here almost three years. Why didn't you address the aged-care issues during your 10 long years, when you sent that sector into crisis? It is an absolute shame on your government for not addressing wages for aged-care workers, not investing in and addressing what you knew was impacting on older Australians. Why did you vote against a pay rise for early childhood educators? Why didn't you support them?</para>
<para>The only reason we're having this debate today is that we're going into Christmas and you want to get a few social media grabs. But the reality is that people who are doing it tough know which colour of government will always look after them, whether they're workers—looking after their rights at work to make sure they're protected—or it's ensuring that there's investment so that there's more GP bulk billing, which has had an amazing impact in my home state of Tasmania. We've invested in urgent care clinics. The four that we have in Tasmania are ensuring that people have access to a GP when they need it, and all they need is a Medicare card.</para>
<para>Let's not forget your former Prime Minister who said, 'If you want to buy a house, you've got to have rich parents.' That's the attitude of those opposite. So you're coming in here, trying to rewrite history, blaming us for not delivering on some election commitments—we have delivered on them. When it came to giving people relief on their energy bills, I can't remember how you voted. Can someone help me? You voted no. You voted no on every single measure that was going to have a real impact on Australian families. And what did you do around housing? You cuddled up to the Greens and spent an entire week—an entire week—not voting against the bills but voting not to have a vote on those bills. And you expect the Australian people to believe the hands on hearts and the crocodile tears and the rubbish that is now being put forward in this chamber? Really! Well, I have more faith in the Australian people; I really do.</para>
<para>I've called out the Australian Greens political party for playing political games for 12 long months when there could have been more social and affordable housing and Australian families could have been helped to buy their first home. When it suits those opposite for some political campaign, we get the same rhetoric the entire time. The proof is always in the pudding. The proof is on the record in how they voted each and every time.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Why did you vote against the tax cuts? You were going to withdraw them; you said you would not go ahead with them. We delivered a tax cut for the Australian people because we believe that you should get a fair day's pay— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BABET</name>
    <name.id>300706</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Australians are experiencing the longest per capita recession on record, with six consecutive quarterly falls in per capita GDP and seven declines in the previous eight quarters. This Christmas, many Australian families will be torn between purchasing presents for their children and paying those skyrocketing electricity and food bills. It is extraordinary to think that many Australians this December, like Mary and Joseph on that first Christmas, will be wondering where they will live, since there is no affordable housing.</para>
<para>Sadly, this year doesn't look like a great Christmas for the vast majority of Australians. The election of the Albanese government did not signal joy to the world; our government is hardly filled with wise men after all! The original wise men arrived that first Christmas bearing gifts, but Labor's wise guys arrive bearing little more than bills. Instead of gold, there's debt. Instead of frankincense, there's the stench of broken promises. There's no gold, there's no frankincense—and as for myrrh, most of us haven't any more clue about what myrrh is than we do about what Labor's plan is to reduce the cost of living.</para>
<para>The Labor Party constantly promise that they will arrive with gifts, only to turn up with boxes that, once unwrapped, are discovered to be empty. More Australians believe in Santa Claus than in the Albanese government's promises—and can you blame them, after the last 2½ years? If Australians have a merry Christmas, it will be not because of but in spite of this government.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BRAGG</name>
    <name.id>256063</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This has been an ugly period in Australia's economic management, perhaps one of the ugliest periods since the Second World War. Ultimately, when you look around the country, people are most disappointed by the government's failure to move on two things: restraining inflation, because that eats away at the day-to-day living standards of Australians and small business; and housing.</para>
<para>All you need to do is look at any published piece of research in the country to see that people under 40 in particular are going crazy about how difficult the housing market is. This government has presided over the greatest collapse in housing construction in recent memory, yet we're constantly lectured by this government on how much money is spent on housing and how many bureaucracies it's established. Guess what? The most important thing is not how many bureaucracies you build; it's how many houses you are ultimately able to construct in this country.</para>
<para>In a constrained market where the government have allowed a million people to come into the country over the last two years—the highest net increase since 1950s—the collapse in housing construction occurring simultaneously with the greatest uptick in migration since the Second World War has put the biggest squeeze on—and the government then cruelly tells us how great this very niche Help to Buy scheme is. I saw all the social media posts from the Prime Minister and all the ministers today heralding the end of the housing crisis with this Help to Buy scheme—a scheme in which 96 per cent of the houses in Sydney are ineligible for purchase. This is a cruel hoax that the Labor Party is seeking to foist on the Australian people—a cruel hoax indeed.</para>
<para>Ultimately, with the failure to address inflation—we've seen the numbers today: 3.5 per cent trimmed mean inflation—the Reserve Bank, unfortunately, has no prospect of cutting rates, and Australians will pay more for their mortgages because of the spending of this government. The Governor of the Reserve Bank, Ms Bullock, could not be clearer that public demand is causing a problem. It is making it impossible to get the inflation rate down to a point where the Reserve Bank can cut. Until they cut, Australians will pay more for their mortgages and they will, in fact, have a much tougher time than they otherwise should. That is why we need to have a government that is prepared to live within its means and not engage in these spendathons on the Public Service, off-budget items, slush funds—we need to get rid of all these things.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm proud to be able to make a contribution to this debate today. There are a few people here in the chamber watching the Australian democracy at work. I'm sure there will also be a few like me, before I came to this place, driving along at 4.30 and listening in after they've done the school pick-up. It's not always the most popular channel with the kids but sometimes the debate in this place is a part of people's real world.</para>
<para>What people look for when they come to this place is a bit of hope. They also seek the truth. They need to hear the truth because what we do here matters. What we've seen emerge in the period that the Albanese government has been in place is an understanding that when we say that we're going to look after the Australian people, we can't just come in here and spout words, as I've heard in some of the contributions from those who've preceded me. We actually have to do stuff. We have to do difficult things that will really help people. This is a government that is focused on helping people through the tough times in practical ways, and that does mean spending on the public purse to assist people in a time of real hardship. To every single one of the bits of assistance that the Albanese Labor government has given to small businesses, families and people who need access to medicines, all while still delivering two surpluses and paying down the national debt—every single time we've tried to assist—those opposite have said, 'No, don't do it.'</para>
<para>We are determined, as a government, to navigate Australia through these times of difficulty and uncertainty. We absolutely know that we need to ensure strong employment. That is the reality in Australia today. Happily, more people are working now than any time since the sixties, in terms of our population. A job is a powerful and wonderful thing. I have not forgotten about the students that would leave my classroom in year 10 or year 12 and how excited they were to get in the marketplace, bring their talent to the market and take home some wages. Fair wages for a fair day's work in a safe workplace—we have kept our eye on that prize. We've ensured that people get the support that they need when they really need it.</para>
<para>I will turn to the tax cuts for all Australians. If the Liberal and National parties had had their way, people with very high incomes would have had a much, much bigger tax cut and people on low incomes would have got zip, zero, nothing. That is not how you help people when they're struggling with the cost of living. Labor's tax cuts, with an emphasis on low- and middle-income earners because we don't want to leave people behind, are a reflection of what we believe. We believe that you should be able to go to work, do a good day's work, get a great opportunity to earn more and keep more of what you earn, and do with it what you wish for your benefit and the benefit of the family that you are a part of—saving part of it, spending part of it, building a future of hope for yourself. We are the party of hope. We are the party of practical response to the very real challenges that Australians have faced, and every time we've responded we've had a wall of negativity from those opposite.</para>
<para>We want Australians to earn more and to keep more of what they earn, and that's why we gave tax cuts to every working Australian, not just some. We've ensured consistent wage rises for all award wage earning employees, and we've ensured stronger rights for workers, not undercut. We don't want people who are wearing the same uniform, standing side by side doing the same job, getting different levels of pay. That is just not the Australian way.</para>
<para>Senators on both sides of the chamber deserve the same pay. We are entitled to different thoughts and different words, but we deserve the same pay. Every Australian doing the same job deserves the same pay. That is a Labor commitment, and we will continue to offer Australians a fair and just Australia.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ASKEW</name>
    <name.id>281558</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The No. 1 issue facing all Australians is the cost of living, and all Australians are hurting, regardless of demographics or income level. Those opposite want to blame everyone except themselves for the cost-of-living crisis. They claim to be slaying inflation, but the evidence to the contrary is very clear. Living standards have collapsed during the term of this government, and there are no signs of things improving. In fact, analysis of forecasts by the Reserve Bank of Australia show high inflation continuing well into 2026, which is far too long for our households.</para>
<para>The RBA is Australia's last line of economic defence. Because of the failed actions of this government—in particular, spending at record levels—the RBA has been forced to raise interest rates 12 times to bring inflation to more manageable levels. But that's not happening either, with core inflation rising to 3.5 per cent as at today. And of course it's not just the interest rate increases that have impacted real household incomes. Families are struggling because of the sharp increase in the costs of so many things—everyday essential expenditure, which they must cover from their disposable income.</para>
<para>Since coming to power, the Albanese government has overseen the price of everything going up by at least 10 per cent, including health care, education, food and insurance. Remember how they promised to reduce everyone's power bill by $275? That reduction will never be seen. Australian families have experienced the largest fall in real disposable income in the advanced world under the stewardship of this government. It has decreased by a massive 8.7 per cent, representing the largest fall ever recorded. So of course household budgets are stretched.</para>
<para>As Christmas approaches, many families are struggling, trying to decide where they can save a few dollars or what they can go without so they can buy that special gift or perhaps cater a special lunch. This Labor government is a failed experiment. It's time to return to a coalition government. It's time to get Australia back on track so we can restore the living standards of all Australians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Things are getting worse. Australians know it, and the data is proving it. This, unfortunately for many Australian households, will be a cost-of-living Christmas. Today we've had more data, more bad news. Core inflation has risen to 3½ per cent, higher than in any other major advanced economy in the world. In fact, every other major advanced nation in the world has seen greater falls in core inflation than we have seen in Australia. But, more than that, interest rates in Australia are higher for longer, when interest rates in other parts of the world are now beginning to fall.</para>
<para>The data today proves yet again that Australia's inflation experience is homegrown, it is too high and it is sticky. Anthony Albanese and Jim Chalmers have failed to tackle inflation. Inflation is dictating the economic conditions for Australian households because Anthony Albanese and Jim Chalmers have failed to take action. We know that costs are going up. We know that real incomes are coming down, and families across Australia are paying the price, and they'll pay the price this Christmas and over this summer holiday period.</para>
<para>If that wasn't bad news enough for Australian households, we also know that living standards are now falling at rates that many of us would never have imagined, that many of us have never experienced before. This is the Christmas experience for Australian households, and Labor has failed in 2½ years to tackle inflation and has made Australian families poorer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to address an issue of profound importance, and I thank my colleague Senator Kovacic for bringing this critical discussion to the Senate. As we approach Christmas, Australian families are writing their wish lists, but there's one item that everyone has in common—relief from the cost-of-living crisis. Sadly, what they're getting from this Albanese Labor government is not relief but more empty promises. Across the country, families are struggling to find the festive cheer. Skyrocketing grocery prices, relentless interest rates and Labor's mounting failures are leaving Australians with empty stockings and even emptier wallets.</para>
<para>One of the greatest casualties of Labor's mismanagement is the Australian dream of homeownership, a dream that has never seemed so out of reach as it is today. In the two years since Labor took office, the housing crisis has gone from bad to worse. Their pro-union tendencies have left the construction industry in chaos. Supply chain constraints, unchecked immigration and rising costs are making it even harder for first home owners to enter the market.</para>
<para>Australians are worse off today than they were three years ago, and, under this government, there's no recovery in sight. Families are shouldering the pain of 12 consecutive interest rate rises, a burden that will weigh them down for years to come. Costs are up; incomes are down. Australian households are enduring the longest household recession on record. Living standards have plummeted, and Australians are working harder than ever just to stay afloat. Labor's reckless and undisciplined spending is driving inflation higher and keeping mortgage rates and grocery prices painfully elevated.</para>
<para>Every day, Australians are paying the price for a government that prioritises short-term political gain over long-term economic stability. The reality is stark. Australian living standards aren't expected to return to pre-inflation levels until well beyond 2026, possibly not until the end of this decade. But this isn't just an economic issue; it's a human issue. The financial strain is breaking families and fracturing communities across the nation.</para>
<para>Disturbingly, Labor's plans to spend a record $87 billion off budget over the next four years is hiding critical spending priorities under the guise of investments. This alarming lack of transparency raises serious concerns about their fiscal management. It's Australians already doing it tough who will foot the bill for this government's failures, and, when it comes to priorities, Labor is completely off course. Take their backpedalling on gambling reform as an example. Despite promising to phase out gambling ads, the Prime Minister has folded. Under pressure from powerful corporations like the AFL, the NRL and media giants who profit from bombarding Australians with gambling ads, Labor is protecting those who exploit vulnerable people to make billions in profit. Or consider the spectacular backflip this week on the Communications Legislation Amendment (Combatting Misinformation and Disinformation) Bill 2024. While abandoning it is a win for free speech, let's be clear: Labor didn't walk away willingly. This wasn't principle; it was panic and a desperate retreat in the face of public outrage and parliamentary backlash.</para>
<para>Perhaps the most troubling of all is Labor's plan to undermine the independence of the Future Fund. This fund isn't just an account. It's a sovereign asset designed to secure our nation's financial future, yet the Treasurer wants to use it as a piggy bank to cover up Labor's economic mismanagement and failed pet projects. Let me be clear: raiding the Future Fund is short-sighted and irresponsible. It sacrifices the prosperity of future generations for the political survival of this government.</para>
<para>This government is weak. Its leadership is weak, and Australians deserve better. It's time for a government with a real plan that prioritises Australian families, safeguards the future and builds the trust and hope that this Labor government has squandered.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The time for the debate has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MATTERS OF URGENCY</title>
        <page.no>5421</page.no>
        <type>MATTERS OF URGENCY</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Western Australia: Environment</title>
          <page.no>5421</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the Senate that the President has received the following letter, dated 27 November, from Senator McKim:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Pursuant to standing order 75, I give notice that today the Australian Greens propose to move "That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That the Western Australian Government is about to approve Woodside's North West Shelf extension to burn toxic gas until 2070 and Minister Plibersek has to use her power to block it."</para></quote>
<para>Is the proposal supported?</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">More than the number of senators required by the standing orders having risen in their places—</inline></para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With the concurrence of the Senate, the clerks will set the clock in line with informal arrangements made by the whips.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COX</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator McKim, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That, in the opinion of the Senate, the following is a matter of urgency:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That the Western Australian Government is about to approve Woodside's North West Shelf extension to burn toxic gas until 2070 and Minister Plibersek has to use her power to block it.</para></quote>
<para>This is a matter of urgency because Australia's greenhouse gas emissions are about to get a whole lot worse. We know that the fugitive emissions and the burn-off gas from gas production constitute a significant portion of our domestic emissions. That's before you consider the damage that our gas does once it reaches our overseas markets. This matter of urgency today is in regard to the Western Australian government, who is about to approve Woodside's North West Shelf extension in my home state of Western Australia to burn toxic gas until 2070. That's right, folks—2070. Minister Plibersek needs to use her power to block this extension on the North West Shelf.</para>
<para>The Western Australian government are making steps and making promises to the gas industry in Western Australia when we are in a serious fight on climate change. This government consistently claim that they are here to prevent it from escalating, yet we see no climate target for 2035. We see them just standing aside quietly as they're about to let off this climate bomb in my home state of Western Australia. The planet's atmosphere absolutely can't afford any more of this foolish behaviour. The minister for the environment has this power. The Western Australian gas cartel control the government in Western Australia. It is unable to respond to the climate emergency because they won't deal with these issues. They have shown us time and time again in Western Australia that they don't care about the damage to Aboriginal cultural heritage. They don't even care about the climate crisis, because they too have not legislated a climate target.</para>
<para>Currently the Murujuga National Park, which is World Heritage listed or nominated for World Heritage listing, is home to some of Australia's oldest rock art. When we talk about Australia's oldest rock art, we mean the world's oldest rock art. We are custodians of that world history, and the gases that are changing our climate are also destroying the human history that is recorded there. An extension of the North West Shelf project means that these damaging gases will continue to be released at the Burrup Peninsula until 2070. Let me say that again: baking in gas, not as a transition fuel, until 2070. They continue to not just destroy the climate but also destroy our cultural heritage simultaneously. The link between the gas emissions from the Woodside plant also damage those Murujuga rock art sites, and that is well established. In fact, in August of this year, the Friends of Australian Rock Art and other signatories wrote to Premier Roger Cook in Western Australia and the environment minister, Reece Whitby, and the Aboriginal affairs minister, Tony Buti, to raise concerns about the risk to cultural heritage that would result in extension of the North West Shelf gas project run by Woodside, and it fell on deaf ears.</para>
<para>Aside from the disrespect of cultural heritage, this extension project will have a timeline of 2070—an extension of the ecocide that's going to happen at that location. The planet will be cooked. It will be cooked. In the north-west of Western Australia, it will be unlivable by 2040 if we keep on this trajectory of not paying attention to the climate emissions. This is not about energy transition. All of this is happening while Woodside continue to gaslight us to believe that they are delivering gas into the domestic market. What a crock! I urge my constituents in Western Australia to read the fine print. This is not happening, and we are paying higher energy costs in Western Australia than ever before.</para>
<para>With a 2035 target unlikely to be announced by this government before we go to next year's election, we are faced with a failure by the Cook Labor government to speak up for climate and heritage. It's time someone took a stand, and it's up to the minister for the environment to do that. It's up for the minister for the environment to place environmental and cultural protections in place that are required for the North West Shelf. What an amazing, beautiful, sacred, important part of the country, and it's in my home state. The Greens will continue to urge the Minister for the Environment and Water to stand up and block this project.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, too, rise to speak on this urgency motion moved by the Greens. I agree, it is a matter of urgency, but the urgency has been demonstrated very clearly by Senator Cox, because it is the Greens that are the danger to Australia's economy and to the world's energy security. Let's strip away all of the hyperbole and the rhetoric and have a look at the facts about gas, the North West Shelf, and the company that they continue to demonise and encourage illegal acts against.</para>
<para>Let's have a look at the facts. It is a fact that the Greens' energy policies are reckless, anti-Western Australian and anti-Australia's interests. They are hurting the economy and they are destroying the livelihoods of thousands of hardworking Australians, particularly in our home state of Western Australia. This demonising, with the help of their Environmental Defenders Office—the cat has well and truly been belled on your involvement and the duplicity of your involvement with those organisations.</para>
<para>Let's have a look at some of the facts. Natural gas is a critical part of the energy mix.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Reynolds, if you could resume your seat.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like Senator Reynolds to withdraw that comment in relation to her insinuation of my involvement in—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>298839</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Cox, I was listening, and I believe it was a reference to the Greens as a party, not to individuals. Senator Reynolds, you may resume.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Natural gas is a fact. It is a critical part of our energy mix. It is powering manufacturing, providing affordable and reliable electricity for Australians and people across the globe. It is stabilising the energy grid alongside intermittent renewable sources. That is a fact; we need gas. As we transition away from coal, we are going to need gas for many decades to come. That is a fact. Natural gas also supports food security globally, and it plays a pivotal role in producing fertiliser such as ammonia and urea, which sustain Australians, but it also provides food security for millions—in fact billions—of people globally.</para>
<para>The coalition supports natural gas development in Australia to strengthen domestic energy security and also in meeting the global LNG demand, which is going to double by 2040. The fact is, with or without Australian gas, it is going to double. If they don't get it from Australia, which produces the cleanest gas in the world, where else will they go? Woodside is a proudly homegrown Australian company, now for many decades headquartered in Perth. The anti-gas rhetoric from the Greens doesn't reduce global demand for gas, but it does—like with coal and now nickel—send the demand elsewhere to countries that do not produce with the same environmental standards, the same human rights standards, the same sustainability standards and the same anti-slavery standards. The Greens, in advocating this again—and what they do with the EDOs and the other organisations whose funds greenwash around the economy and out of sight of the Electoral Commission—are putting this country at risk.</para>
<para>Some of the facts: the North West Shelf has produced more than 6,300 LNG cargo since 1989, which supports regional energy security. This extension will allow existing gas resources to be developed without the need for constructing new processing facilities. That is not something the Greens will ever admit to you—no more new facilities. In 2023 alone, the North West Shelf contributed $1.7 billion to the Australian economy, including more than $1 billion spent in Western Australian businesses, supporting nearly 1,000 jobs. Since 1984 the North West Shelf has contributed $40 billion in federal royalties and excises, delivering lasting benefits to the Australian and to the Western Australian communities. It is critically important to our nation's security.</para>
<para>The North West Shelf project has also underpinned significant regional development, which has benefitted the Pilbara in particular. A just transition is necessary, and what those opposite propose will never bring a just energy transition. If they don't buy their gas and energy from here, they will go to other nations that have appalling human rights records. Woodside's Browse to North West Shelf Project, if approved, will be subject to the most rigorous regulatory and environmental assessments in the world, and compliance is assured like no other country. I'm proud— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It gives me great privilege to stand up here and defend my home state of Western Australia. I did miss my colleague Senator Cox's contribution—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cox</name>
    <name.id>296215</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's a shame.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that interjection. It is a shame. I wish I had, Senator Cox, because last time you made one on this, I had five minutes of absolute fun and pleasure responding, cutting down some of the claims you made. I must be spanked, seriously, for missing it. When you travel into the state of Western Australia, the envy of the nation, you can see the wealth that is flowing. We've got some challenges, make no mistake, but we are so proud of our mining and our gas industries.</para>
<para>I want to make a declaration, because going back to about 1984—just so people can't look it up and have a little cheap crack—I delivered a load of furniture to the first office block in a place called Hearson Cove in Dampier. They told me at the time it was for a company called Woodside. Even back then, 40 years ago, they were creating some opportunities for employment wealth for us furniture-removalist truck drivers. WA's domestic growth is more than twice that of the rest of the country, at 5.3 per cent. We produce almost half of the nation's exports goods, which generate almost $260 billion for this nation. That might be a throwaway line, but let me tell you that's a heck of a lot of money. That's what we do just in WA. It's a little bit ripe and it does irk me a bit when Western Australian senators come in and talk down the economy in Western Australia and the employment opportunities in Western Australia—not only those that are directly employed through Woodside, which is what the motion's about, but also those directly employed through the greater industry, the service industry, the trucking industry that's around and the trades that go with it. We're all part of it as well.</para>
<para>WA's record levels of employment have led to significant real wages growth, which I said earlier that the economic growth and sound economic management delivered by Premier Roger Cook has seen WA's population increase by 94,000. I think we've got one Greens member in the upper house in Western Australia. That's what they were reduced to last time. Us Western Australians, particularly us in the Labor Party, were really excited with the result of the last election, which saw that side over there put down to only two seats in the lower house—a magnificent contribution. I've got to tell you that there are no Greens in the lower house. There's only one Green in the upper house. How he snuck in, I don't know!</para>
<para>A great deal of that sustained economic growth has been driven by our resources sector, which includes gas. If the Greens political party want to continue to criticise and block our gas industry, then they need to explain how they're going to keep energy prices down and replace $5 billion in taxes and royalties paid each year by Woodside.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I know that hurts the Greens, and I love the interaction. I think it's fantastic. The only thing I'm disappointed about is that I would love to have this debate on the stump in Western Australia. I would love to see all the workers in Western Australia, the supply chains and the service industry come to listen to Senator Cox and Senator Steele-John pooh-pooh one part of our great state, a massive part of our economy, and jobs that have been delivered—3,000-odd Western Australia jobs in Woodside alone before the flow-on. There's only so much basket-weaving you can do down in Freo—I can say that, because I live just out of Freo. It ain't creating the wealth. It ain't creating the employment opportunities. It's not creating the opportunity for apprenticeships and traineeships, let alone the royalties, and that's to say nothing of the jobs that have been created and supported by all these communities. This is the only sad part: I really wish we were in WA.</para>
<para>When we talk about that, you should expand your views—maybe get out of Perth and head up to Karratha or Dampier. Senator Whish-Wilson, I'll even take you with me. I'll drive you in my car. You bring your surfboard. I tell you what: we'll have a bevvy sitting on the beach, and then you can tell the people in Karratha how much you hate fossil fuels. I have to say this to my dear friend Senator Whish-Wilson and others: you do love the pointy end of the aeroplane. You do love the air-conditioned car. You do love the BMW. You don't ride your pushbikes up there, do you? Oh no. Fossil fuel gets you to work and back; you love it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens are continuing their war on natural gas, their war on humanity. Gas keeps the lights on when their wind turbines and solar panels aren't working, and that's often. This afternoon, New South Wales is facing blackouts, as wind and solar supplied less than a quarter of energy needs. They're facing blackouts!</para>
<para>With the abundance of coal, oil and natural gas under our feet, Australia is an energy superpower. Hydrocarbon fuels—coal, oil and natural gas—are the energy miracles, the human development miracles, the human progress miracles. Australia is among the top three gas exporters and the top two coal exporters. We are the largest exporter of energy in the world. Now, though, Australia is facing blackouts and energy rationing like we're a Third World country. Thank you!</para>
<para>The New South Wales government has asked households to turn off their air-conditioners, pull the blinds down, turn off the dishwashers and turn off the lights this afternoon. Third World—thank you! Next they'll probably ask everyone to just curl up in the fetal position on the floor. The anti-human greenies are winning. Coal is being shut down, as they want, and this is the result: east coast Australians suffer. You're not going to believe the Greens' brilliant solution to this. Just wait for it. They want to ban gas. Your gas stovetop and hot-water heater are going to be forcibly converted to electric, and you'll be banned from turning them on when wind and solar don't give the grid enough power. You can't make this up!</para>
<para>Think about this: electricity prices are at record highs thanks to solar and wind. They're three times what they used to be—trebled. Now we're having less electricity, because we're relying on solar and wind more, and we're having increased demand, because we're switching from gas to electricity. What will that do to prices? You can't make this up. I guess you don't need to turn your dishwasher on anyway, if you can't turn on your electric cooktop to cook dinner. This is the green dream: no gas, no light, no cooking, no red meat, no fun.</para>
<para>It's the hypocrisy that's the worst part, though. The Greens want to ban us using coal here, yet it's perfectly fine to ship coal over to China. China uses that coal to make wind turbines and solar panels, and our dopey government buys them back off China. We subsidise the Chinese to do it. We subsidise the Chinese to install them and we subsidise the Chinese and other parasitic billionaires and corporations to run them. Who pays for those subsidies? The people who use electricity do. The Greens are fine with that. Buying coal products from China—solar and wind turbines—is fine, but using coal here is not. One Nation says: unleash the resources we have in our country for the benefit of all Australian people. Talk to Queenslanders about the services and infrastructure being built from coal royalties.</para>
<para>China gives token signals about solar and wind, while using coal, nuclear and hydro. China produces 4.5 billion tonnes of coal a year, heading for five billion. They're the world's largest producer by a long way. Australia produces 560 million tonnes, and a lot of our coal is exported. Some of it goes to China, because they can't get enough with their 4.5 billion. India produces around 1.4 billion tonnes of coal—three times what we produce—and buys more from Australia. Why? I'll tell you why. It's because they want what we have: a developed nation, with people living longer, safer, easier, more secure, more prosperous and more comfortable lives. They know the secret to these is affordable hydrocarbon fuels—coal, oil and natural gas. Britain started its climb to development using coal. America continued using coal and added the benefit of using oil and gas. High energy density fuels released us from using animals as beasts of burden, stopped us using slaves and reduced exposure to harsh work conditions and work environments.</para>
<para>Why are hydrocarbon fuels—so powerful, so effective and lifting us to higher standards of living—repeatedly proven around the world? I'll tell you why: high energy density, which lowers unit energy costs—more energy, lower costs. That gives us productivity. That's why coal, oil and natural gas are so important. The largest component of manufacturing costs today is electricity. We are now uncompetitive because our electricity costs are amongst the highest. That hurts jobs. The Greens are antijobs, antidevelopment, anticivilisation and antihuman. Only One Nation will end net zero and pull us out of the UN Paris Agreement to restore affordable secure energy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, the lickspittles to the fossil fuel corporations are on full view in this place today. The slaves, the sycophants and the puppets to the big fossil fuel corporations come in here to do the bidding of their corporate political donors. Those millions of dollars that flow into the coffers of the Labor Party, the Liberal Party and the National Party from big fossil fuel corporations are sure paying off in spades today. We are seeing people come in here and run the lines for the big fossil fuel corporations, which are run by the psychopaths of CEOs who prioritise cooking the planet, and their own personal profiteering and greed, over the future of every living thing on this earth.</para>
<para>It's appropriate to reflect that it's not just in the Senate where people come in and say the quiet things out loud; it's also what goes on behind the scenes in this place. We know from multiple reports last night that the Prime Minister, acting at the behest of the Business Council of Australia, the Minerals Council, the big polluters, the loggers, the miners and the fossil fuel corporations, has scuppered his own environment minister's attempts to get up a bill that would have at least in some small way improved the situation for our environment. Once again, we are seeing big corporate power and influence—the big polluters—get a win over nature, the environment and climate action.</para>
<para>We are living in a petro state. We are living in a nation where the boardroom of the Business Council of Australia is effectively the third chamber of this parliament—but it wields its power with no accountability, no responsibility and no obligation to the Australian people. The Prime Minister has literally just stomped all over his own environment minister because that's what the big corporate polluters, the miners, the loggers and the fossil fuel corporations told him to do. You know what they call this in a lot of other countries? They call it corruption. Here in Australia, it shows that the big corporate interests, their greed and their profiteering, are what really matters to most people in this place rather than the interests of the people we are put in here to represent, of nature, of climate action and of every living thing on this planet.</para>
<para>The Western Australian government, as we know, is poised to approve Woodside's North West Shelf extension—a massive project that will burn toxic, polluting, planet-cooking gas up to 2070. Minister Plibersek has the authority and the moral responsibility to intervene in that matter, just as she does to intervene to save the maugean skate—an ancient species; there are only about 120 left on the face of the planet—in Tasmania's Macquarie Harbour. And what does Labor do? It parachutes in an announcement from the Prime Minister of $28 million in order to prop up Senator Urquhart's campaign to win the seat of Braddon at the next federal election. That is also, in a lot of countries, what would qualify as corruption. Labor should never have done that ahead of the scientific studies that are still not due for over 12 months.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Woodside's North West Shelf project is one of Australia's oldest and dirtiest fossil fuel projects. It was due to be decommissioned in the next decade, but we found out today that the Western Australian government is poised to approve another 50-plus years of gas production on the North West Shelf, primarily to facilitate the Browse project—the biggest fossil fuel project in this nation's history. If that project were approved, not only would it drill precious Scott Reef and impact the biodiversity of Scott Reef, but it would be equivalent to more than 10 years—13 years, on the latest data—of national emissions in one project.</para>
<para>If I were to ask you, senators and Australians listening to this debate, what would be the one word you would use to describe a government approving a fossil fuel project of this magnitude in 2024, at a time less than a week from the last COP, the international get-together for discussing climate change? They've told us we've already passed 1½ degrees of warming—the Paris targets. What would you say if I were to tell you that a government would approve this for a fossil fuel project, for a big company—Woodside Petroleum and their North West Shelf partners? What word would you use to describe that? The word I would use is corruption. How could you describe it as anything but corruption—a corruption of our political process—that big corporations can capture governments because they donate to them and they threaten them and they bully them? It's a corruption of the truth and the science behind climate change that we would somehow have a government that would approve this project, flying in the face of all the evidence that we are told that we need to get out of fossil fuels and stop approving new fossil fuel projects. It's a corruption of trust in our institutions that people trust to make decisions in their best interests. It's a corruption of the livelihoods and health of future generations on this planet—in fact, of generations on this planet today.</para>
<para>We know that there are going to be massive costs coming down the line for not acting on climate. If the Western Australian government goes ahead and approves this project, we know that this federal government can stop it. Sense and reason have to prevail. But, unfortunately, we know that the Prime Minister last night killed any chance of getting proper environmental protection laws in this country, because big corporations were in his office bullying him not to do so. That's who Labor are today.</para>
<para>If you care about the environment and you want to protect the environment, you want action on climate change and you want to stop fossil fuel projects, the best thing you can do in the democracy we have today is vote for the Greens and any candidates who will stand up in this place and do what my colleagues are doing today and say, 'No more fossil fuel projects; we need to get on with dramatically and radically reducing emissions and transitioning to renewable energy.'</para>
<para>The fact that not a single Labor, Liberal or National senator in this debate today has even mentioned climate change is very, very telling. This argument that, somehow, we can't do it for economic reasons was the argument used against the abolition of slavery, and there are some really good parallels, because that's the cost of production—we need slave labour; our whole economy is dependent on it. They're saying the same thing about fossil fuels. It's immoral, and it's going to change at the next election.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HODGINS-MAY</name>
    <name.id>310860</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The past 24 hours have confirmed what we already knew. Gina Rinehart and the fossil fuel lobby wield more power than the environment minister in this country. Australia is the world's third-largest exporter of fossil fuels, and the WA Labor government is about to approve Woodside's North West Shelf extension to burn toxic gas until 2070.</para>
<para>When both major parties accept donations from the fossil fuel industry, when they accept cushy jobs within the industry after their political careers and when they continue to support new coal and gas projects, signing off on approvals to burn our children's future—all the way out to 2070, in this case—people are rightly angry.</para>
<para>Over the weekend, around 5,000 people, including many Greens members, took part in Rising Tide's blockade of the world's largest coal port, and I joined many of these legends out on the front lawns of parliament today. To the blockade attendees, organisers, volunteers and 180 arrestees I want to say thank you. And to the 14 people under 18 years of age who were arrested standing up for their generation and their future: thank you. Thank you and I'm sorry that the cowards in this parliament would rather see the demise of your future than transition our economy to renewable energy. Shame!</para>
<para>Every new fossil fuel project is costing lives. Every point of a degree of warming will be measured in human suffering. That is the legacy that major political parties will leave this place with. Will our so-called environment minister salvage some power to block Woodside? Probably not. But the Greens will continue fighting alongside you, in this place and on the streets, to protect our planet and our future. With a federal election just months away, it pays to remember that you can't keep voting for the same two parties and expect a different result. If you want change, you have to vote for it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator McKim be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:20]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Walsh)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>13</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Thorpe, L. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>19</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived. </p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5427</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>5427</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to table two documents.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Chandler</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The opposition hasn't seen the documents that Senator Thorpe is seeking to table, so, on that basis, we will deny leave.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is not granted, Senator Thorpe.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>5427</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5427</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>5427</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Delegated Legislation Monitor</title>
            <page.no>5427</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present <inline font-style="italic">Delegated legislation monitor</inline><inline font-style="italic"> No. 1</inline><inline font-style="italic">4 </inline><inline font-style="italic">of 2024</inline>, together with ministerial correspondence, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to speak to the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation's report, <inline font-style="italic">Delegated legislation monitor</inline><inline font-style="italic"> No. 1</inline><inline font-style="italic">4 </inline><inline font-style="italic">of 2024</inline>. This monitor reports on the committee's consideration of 71 legislative instruments registered between 15 and 18 October 2024.</para>
<para>I'd first like to draw the chamber's attention to the Explosives Regulations 2024, which the committee is pleased to conclude its examination of in this monitor. This instrument prescribes matters relating to the transport and handling of explosives and the control of Commonwealth explosive areas. It was also considered by the committee in monitors12 and 13. The committee sought the minister's advice in relation to a number of scrutiny principles, including in relation to the delegation of administrative powers. The minister advised that it was considered necessary and appropriate to delegate such powers as they were administrative in nature, as well as to avoid delay and offer flexibility. He also noted that, due to the drafting of the relevant provisions, only three substantive powers could be delegated under the study in writing.</para>
<para>The committee raised scrutiny concerns in monitors 4 and 12 relating to the automation of discretionary powers and the adequacy of the explanatory statement. This included seeking the minister's advice as to which aspects of a visa condition 8208 decision would or may be made by a computer program, why the use of automated decision-making was considered necessary and appropriate, and whether any safeguards applied. In his correspondence of 14 November 2024, the minister provided some helpful advice, including that the automation of decisions is necessary and appropriate because there are long-standing arrangements in the student visa program for automation of visa processing, and to address concerns raised by university stakeholders during consultation in relation to delays in visa processing.</para>
<para>The committee welcomes advice provided in this response that only approval decisions will be automated and that decisions to refuse an application or decisions that are complex or require discretion will only be made by the minister or their delegate. The committee considers this to be an important safeguard on the automation of decisions to ensure that the minister or delegate exercises their discretionary power personally, without fetter, and it provides some clarification as to the nature and scope of automation. Additionally, the committee welcomes advice the minister provided as to safeguards, including that intended IT capabilities for automated processing of decisions would be developed in line with documented business requirements, rules, specifications and quality assurance testing. The committee also acknowledges the minister's advice that, presently, there is no automation of decisions relating to the visa condition and that only the minister or their delegate is considering such decisions. The committee welcomes the minister's undertaking to amend the explanatory statement to include his previous advice regarding the background to the visa conditions and change-of-course applications, mechanisms to identify and correct any errors in automated decision-making, and the operation of merits review as a safeguard. These amendments will assist users of the law to better understand how a computer program making a visa condition 8208 decision is intended to operate.</para>
<para>On the basis of this advice and the minister's undertaking to amend the explanatory statement, the committee concluded examination of the instrument. However, noting the minister's advice that automated decision-making was not enabled during the committee's consideration of the instrument, the committee has resolved to draw the authority for the use of automated decision-making for decisions in relation to visa condition 8202 to the attention of the Senate under standing order 23(4).</para>
<para>Further, the committee notes the increasing use of rapidly evolving technologies, including automated decision-making and algorithmic functions in administrative decision-making under delegated legislation. The committee is concerned that, while there is some work under way to improve this, the use of such technologies across portfolios is currently not supported by a consistent framework. Accordingly, the committee will continue to closely monitor the use of such technologies in delegated legislation and will consider whether its scrutiny principles are sufficient, or whether any inquiry is warranted to consider those matters more broadly.</para>
<para>I would also like to take this opportunity to continue to raise awareness of the committee's scrutiny principles and expectations outlined in Senate standing order 23. In my tabling statement of 18 September 2022 I discussed paragraphs (a) and (b), and today I would like to discuss paragraph (c). Under this principle, the committee considers whether legislative instruments include insufficiently defined administrative powers which may unduly impact the rights, liberties, obligations or interests of individuals. Under this principle, the committee considers instruments which facilitate automated decision-making, as the automation of decisions make better exercise of discretionary power. The committee considers that, while technology may be used to assist in the decision-making process, instruments should not enable the automation of discretionary decisions—except where the scope of the discretion is very narrow, with objective criteria. Where an instrument does provide for automated assistance in a decision-making process, its explanatory statement should clearly explain the nature of extent of this automated element and why it is considered necessary and appropriate. Further, the explanatory statement should address what safeguards are in place to ensure the decision-maker exercises their discretionary powers personally and without fetter. Finally, the committee expects the explanatory statement to actually set out the availability of and pathways for seeking review, as well as whether there are mechanisms in place to correct errors.</para>
<para>Under paragraph (c) the committee also considers whether an instrument enables a person to delegate their powers or functions to another person. In these cases the committee expects the explanatory statement to set out the purpose and scope of the delegation, including why it is considered necessary, who will exercise the delegated power, whether they possess the appropriate qualifications and skills to do so, as well as any limitations and safeguards on the exercise of the powers.</para>
<para>The explanatory statement should also set out these matters where an instrument confers discretionary powers on a person. A discretionary power may empower the minister to make a decision based on the consideration of various relevant matters, with the ability for such decisions to affect the rights of interests and individuals. In such cases, the committee expects the instrument or explanatory statement to specify the factors the decision-maker must consider in making the decision, and whether an independent merits review is available.</para>
<para>I'm pleased to advise the chamber that three undertakings have been implemented in the past week. Three new undertakings have been made to address the committee's scrutiny concerns, and 19 undertakings remain outstanding for more than 90 days. I'm also pleased to report that since the committee began listing undertakings outstanding for more than 90 days in each monitor the committee has, in fact, received regular updates from ministers and their agencies on the progress of implementing outstanding undertakings. Oh behalf of the committee, I thank those ministers and agencies for their ongoing engagement.</para>
<para>With these comments, I commend <inline font-style="italic">Delegated legislation monitor </inline><inline font-style="italic">No. </inline><inline font-style="italic">1</inline><inline font-style="italic">4 o</inline><inline font-style="italic">f 2024</inline> to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5429</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>5429</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I table a document.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5429</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>5429</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Scrutiny Digest</title>
            <page.no>5429</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>CADELL (—) (): On behalf of Senator Dean Smith, I present <inline font-style="italic">Scrutiny </inline><inline font-style="italic">d</inline><inline font-style="italic">igest</inline> No. 15 of 2024 of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills, together with ministerial correspondence. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee</title>
          <page.no>5429</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>5429</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of Senator Canavan, I present the report of the Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee on the impact and mitigation of aircraft noise, together with accompanying documents. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Treaties Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>5429</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>5429</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> (—) (): On behalf of the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties, I present the 224th report, <inline font-style="italic">Agreement among the government of Australia, the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the government of the United States of America for cooperation related to naval nuclear propulsion</inline>, and a corrigendum to the 221st report of the Joint Standing Committee on Treaties, <inline font-style="italic">Agreement under the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea on the conservation and sustainable use of marine biological diversity of areas beyond national jurisdiction</inline><inline font-style="italic">. </inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DELEGATION REPORTS</title>
        <page.no>5429</page.no>
        <type>DELEGATION REPORTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Parliamentary Delegation to 149th Inter-Parliamentary Union Assembly</title>
          <page.no>5429</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I present the report of the Australian parliamentary delegation to the 149th Inter-Parliamentary Union Assembly, which took place from 13 to 18 October 2024. I seek leave to move a motion in relation to the report.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the document.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to incorporate a tabling statement in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline></para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The statement read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">149th IPU Assembly and Bilateral Visit to France—October 2024 Introduction</para></quote>
<list>I'm pleased to present the report of the Australian Parliamentary Delegation to the 149th Inter-Parliamentary Union Assembly held in Geneva from 13 to 17 October and Bilateral Visit to France from 17 to 18 October 2024.</list>
<list>The delegation was led by the Hon Milton Dick MP, Speaker for the House of Representatives and comprised:</list>
<list>Senator Deborah O'Neill, <inline font-style="italic">r </inline>o the Hon Warren Entsch PM, and o Mr Graham Perrett MP.</list>
<quote><para class="block">149th Assembly</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Delegation activity</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The delegation was particularly active during this Assembly and the highlights of our contribution at the Assembly include:</para></quote>
<list>Mr Speaker's appointment as Chairperson of the Sub-Committee on Finance. In that capacity, he presented the IPU financial report to the Executive Committee, IPU Governing Council and various geopolitical groups.</list>
<list>Senator O'Neill's appointment to the Bureau of the Standing</list>
<quote><para class="block">Committee on Democracy and Human Rights as well as her appointment as the President of the committee.</para></quote>
<list>The advancement of my work on orphanage trafficking including securing the agreement of the Standing Committee on Democracy and Human Rights to debate implementation of the 2023 IPU resolution on orphanage trafficking at the next Assembly.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian delegation was active in a variety of other forums:</para></quote>
<list>Mr Speaker participated in meetings of the IPU Executive Committee as a member of that committee and Chairperson of its Sub- committee on Finance.</list>
<list>Senator O'Neill moderated a panel debate on a fair global financial system for the Standing Committee on Sustainable</list>
<list>Development and participated in the work of the Committee to Promote Respect for International Humanitarian Law as a member of that committee.</list>
<list>I served as a panellist at a workshop on combating child labour and participated in the Forum of Women as a member of its Bureau.</list>
<list>Mr Perrett served on the IPU Emergency Item Drafting Committee</list>
<list>Mr Entsch and Mr Perrett served as scrutineers during voting of the Asia-Pacific Group.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Emergency debate and resolutions of the Assembly</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Assembly held an emergency debate on the theme: Response by parliamentarians to the urgent plea by the UN Secretary-General to recommit to multilateralism for global peace, justice and sustainability.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The debate culminating in a resolution on the same theme which calls on the international community, including the IPU membership, to end the "appalling impact of conflict on children" and take other action to protect vulnerable persons.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The IPU membership also endorsed a resolution on the impact of artificial intelligence on democracy, human rights and the rule of law. Amongst other things, the resolution calls upon parliaments to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">...effectively and transparently adopt or maintain strong legal frameworks and policies for the responsible creation, deployment and use of Al technology, and to contribute to efforts to establish global standards and frameworks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Multilateral and bilateral meeting</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The delegation held meetings and discussions with parliamentary delegations from Albania, India, Israel, New Zealand, Timor-Leste, Ukraine and Zambia as well as the World Health Organisation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Bilateral Visit to France</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Assembly and Senate</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During our visit to France, the delegation was official received by Madam Yael Braun-Pivet, President of the National Assembly at Burbon Palace.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The delegation met with Madam President alongside Ms Eleonore Caroit MP, Vice President of the Foreign Affairs Committee at the National Assembly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During the meeting, the strength of the bilateral relationship between the two parliaments was discussed. It was, therefore, most fitting that Mr Speaker was able to present an official Guest of Parliament invitation to Madam President on behalf of the Australian Parliament with a view to further strengthening these relationships.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The delegation was also able to meet with Senator Lo"ic Herve, Vice President of the Senate, as well as Senator Florence Blatrix Contat, Chair of the France-Australia Friendship Group and Senator Georges Naturel, Senator for New Caledonia. At that meeting, the longstanding relationship between the two nations was highlighted and Mr Speaker presented the official Guest of Parliament invitation to the Vice President.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Exchange of information regarding the Olympics</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The delegation met with Mr Pierre Rabadan, Deputy Mayor of Paris in charge of Sport, the Olympic and Paralympic Game and the Seine as well as Mr <inline font-style="italic">r </inline>Etienne Thobois, General Director of the Paris Organising Committee for the 2024 Olympic and Paralympic Games.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During both meetings, the delegation was informed of the lessons learned from the Paris Olympics including the importance of integrating social initiatives into project planning for the Olympics.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the afternoon of 18 October, the delegation travelled to the Arch de Triomphe where Mr Speaker lay a wreath on behalf of the Parliament and people of Australia at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier. It was an honour for the delegation that Mr Speaker was then able to participate in the rekindling of the flame ceremony at the tomb of the Unknown Soldier on behalf of the Australian people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Acknowledgements</para></quote>
<list>On behalf of the Australian delegation, I would like to thank those who supported the 149th IPU Assembly and our bilateral visit to France.</list>
<list>I give particular thanks to the following Ambassadors and their staff: o His Excellency Mr Ridwaan Jadwat, Ambassador to the United</list>
<quote><para class="block">Arab Emirates, o Her Excellency Ms Amanda Gorley, Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations and the Conference on Disarmament, in Geneva, o Her Excellency Ms Emily Roper, Deputy Permanent Representative to the United Nations in Geneva, and o Her Excellency Ms Gillian Bird PSM, Ambassador to France.</para></quote>
<list>I also thank staff at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in Canberra who provide background briefing material for both the IPU Assembly and visit to France.</list>
<list>I extent our thanks to the Parliamentary Library for providing briefing materials for both the Assembly and visit to France which were extremely helpful and informative.</list>
<list>The delegation appreciates the assistance and support of the International Parliamentary Relations Office with regard to travel arrangements and predeparture briefings.</list>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm delighted to present the report of the Australian Parliamentary Delegation to the 149th Inter-Parliamentary Union Assembly held in Geneva from 13 to 17 October, followed by a bilateral visit to France from 17 to 18 October this year. The delegation was most ably led by the Speaker, the Hon. Milton Dick MP. The delegation comprised me, Senator O'Neill, the Hon. Warren Entsch and Mr Graham Perrett. I think that, on reflection, this delegation and the work that this delegation has done over the course of this parliament absolutely demonstrates the power of parliamentary diplomacy. There are a number of things I want to highlight to that effect.</para>
<para>The delegation was particularly active during this assembly. One of the many highlights of the contributions of all delegation members included Mr Speaker's appointment as Chairperson of the Sub-Committee on Finance for the IPU. In that capacity he presented the IPU financial report to the executive committee, to the IPU governing council and also to various geopolitical groups. Senator O'Neill was appointed to the Bureau of the Standing Committee on Democracy and Human Rights, as well as her appointment as the president of that committee. I congratulate her most heartily for that. It is a very significant appointment.</para>
<para>The advancement of my own work on orphanage trafficking proceeded very pleasingly, again, during this assembly. I secured the agreement of the Standing Committee on Democracy and Human Rights to debate the implementation of the 2023 IPU resolution on orphanage trafficking that I was rapporteur for and took through the assembly over the course of 12 months.</para>
<para>The Australian delegation was also active in a variety of other IPU forums. Mr Speaker participated in meetings of the IPU Executive Committee as a member of that committee and as the chairperson of its subcommittee on finance. Senator O'Neill also moderated a panel on the debate 'On a fair global financial system' for the Standing Committee on Sustainable Development and participated in the work of the committee to promote respect for international humanitarian law as a member of that committee. Again, I also congratulate Senator O'Neill for her initiative—not only did she facilitate that debate but it was her initiative, which was very well received by many countries across many geographic political groups at the IPU.</para>
<para>I also served as a panellist at a workshop on combating child labour and participated in a forum of women as a member of its bureau. Mr Perrett, at his first assembly, served on the IPU emergency item drafting committee. I'm also now rapporteur for the next IPU on a two-party solution in the Middle East, which I have no doubt will be challenging to say the least. The emergency debate and the resolution of the assembly this time was a response by parliamentarians to the urgent plea by the UN Secretary-General to recommit to multilateralism for global peace, justice and also sustainability. The debate culminated in a resolution on the same theme, which calls on the international community, including the IPU membership, to end the appalling impact of conflict on children and also take other action to protect vulnerable people.</para>
<para>In relation to the bilateral visit to France, during our visit to France, the delegation was officially received by the President of the National Assembly at the Bourbon palace, and we met with many other parliamentarians across both chambers. We also met with Mr Pierre Rabadan, who is the deputy mayor of Paris in charge of sport and the Olympic and Paralympic Games, which were, again, so successful. We learnt many lessons from that. Probably the most significant one for all of us was on the afternoon of 18 October. The delegation had the great privilege of travelling to the Arc de Triomphe, where Mr Speaker laid a wreath at their equivalent of the last post ceremony, and we all participated in what was an incredibly moving ceremony at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier under the Arc de Triomphe. On behalf of the Australian delegation, there are many people to thank—the Parliamentary Library for their brilliant briefing documents yet again and also the ambassadors both in Geneva and Paris and all of their staff who provided us great support. Thank you.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Reynolds, your time has expired.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Reynolds</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note that, from 13 to 17 October 2024, I attended the 149th Assembly of the Inter-Parliamentary Union in Geneva alongside Senator Reynolds, Mr Warren Entsch, Mr Graham Perrett and the delegation leader, Mr Speaker, who did an extraordinary job in representing Australia. I just want to associate myself with the remarks of Senator Reynolds. Often, in a cynical world, people don't realise how important people-to-people relations and parliament-to-parliament relations are. In fact, it was remarked in one of our meetings that when diplomatic relations were at a sad point between us and one other country the embassy was actually quite shocked to see how important the relationships between parliamentarians were and how vital they were in rekindling the relationship. It's important work that's done by so many people right across the parliament, and we do it as team Australia. I was very, very proud to be there with such a hardworking group of senators and members.</para>
<para>There were 1,207 delegates at the IPU from 130 member parliaments, and I know from conversations with you offline, Acting Deputy President Sterle, that you also have participated in this august forum. It's an international organisation of national parliaments. The IPU promotes democratic governance, institutions and values in working with parliaments and parliamentarians to articulate and respond to the needs and aspirations of people. It works for peace, democracy, human rights, gender equality, youth empowerment, climate action and sustainable development through political dialogue, cooperation and parliamentary action.</para>
<para>In the IPU Standing Committee on Sustainable Development, I furthered the Australian committee's work here on PwC, shining a light on the practices of multinational consultancies that seek to profit from tax evasion and base erosion profit shifting. At the IPU, I moderated a panel debate on the committee, entitled 'Towards a fairer global financial system: the role of parliamentarians and parliaments in preventing corporate tax avoidance and achieving sustainable development'. Members of the panel included Mr Ben Dickinson, deputy director of the OECD Centre for Tax Policy and Administration; Ms Kalale Mambwe, the project manager of the Tax Inspectors Without Borders initiative; Mr Thomas Beloe, the Director of the Sustainable Financial Hub in the United Nations Development Program; and Mr Ahtesham R Khan, the head of the UNDP Tax for Sustainable Development Goals initiative. And I want to thank our former colleague, former senator Mathias Cormann, for facilitating the engagement with the OECD, who are leading this work around the world. In fact, many of the participants were very surprised to find that they could get the support of Tax Inspectors Without Borders. This is critical for countries where a lot of money has been shifted away, and poverty remains the consequence of that for far too many of our fellow citizens around the world.</para>
<para>During the debate, I heard from countries across the world including Iran, Norway, China, Malawi, Zambia, Canada, Egypt and Thailand, to just name a few, which gives you the sense of how many nations reiterated the necessity of fair and proper taxation and its importance in facing global concerns such as climate change, poverty, hunger and education. Clearly, without funds, governments are powerless to fight these challenges and strive towards the Sustainable Development Goals.</para>
<para>Analysis from the UNDP states what countries could fund if companies like PwC, EY, Deloitte and KPMG were not being consulted by multinationals on how to tax-evade. In South Africa, 3,500 schools or six million HIV treatments could be funded from the $3 billion that is shifted away from that country. In Gambia, 6,500 water wells could be provided for, and, in Brazil, homes for more than eight million low-income families could have been financed. I look forward to promoting that resolution and calling for more action to be taken to ensure further taxation worldwide.</para>
<para>Also, at the IPU, as Senator Reynolds has indicated, I was honoured to be supported by the Australian delegation to take on the role of President of the Standing Committee on Democracy and Human Rights, alongside the vice-president, Mr Torosian from Armenia. I want to congratulate the work of Senator Reynolds, who has led a fine internationally accorded debate on orphanage trafficking, which is traffickers who recruit children from vulnerable families or situations and transfers or receives them into orphanages with the ultimate purpose of exploitation and profit. This document that is now produced from the IPU is really down to her contribution. This is the kind of work we do, and I'm very proud to be associated with it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, the time for debate has expired.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'Neill</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Parliamentary Delegation to 43rd ASEAN Inter-Parliamentary Assembly</title>
          <page.no>5433</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I present the report of the Australian parliamentary delegation to the 43rd ASEAN Inter-Parliamentary Assembly, which took place from 20 to 25 November 2022.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5433</page.no>
        <type>MINISTERIAL STATEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>First Nations Australians: Northern Territory Stolen Wages</title>
          <page.no>5433</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a statement concerning an apology to First Nations people in the Northern Territory whose wages were controlled by historical Commonwealth legislation.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Australian government, we acknowledge a significant wrong in this country—that between 1933 and 1971 under the laws of the Commonwealth that determined how much people got paid in the Northern Territory, First Nations people worked for very low wages—and in some cases, no wages at all.</para>
<para>For this, as Minister for Indigenous Australians, I'm sorry.</para>
<para>For this, the Australian government is sorry.</para>
<para>We know that Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people lived and thrived for tens of thousands of years prior to the arrival of the First Fleet.</para>
<para>We know that First Nations people have a deep, unbroken connection to Australia's lands and waters and exceptional talents in protecting and caring for country.</para>
<para>And we know that First Nations people have been harmed by many of the laws and policies created in this country since European settlement.</para>
<para>Indigenous people were stolen from their families.</para>
<para>Indigenous people were used for backbreaking labour, building new communities that often excluded them.</para>
<para>We know they did gruelling and critical work, particularly in the Northern Territory—toiling on farms and stations, building, tending to stock, cooking and cleaning, gardening, making clothes.</para>
<para>Now, we also know that under Commonwealth laws in place for decades, until a little over 50 years ago, First Nations people in the Northern Territory did this work for very little pay, even, in some cases, for no pay at all, often for excruciatingly long hours, often in remote locations and difficult conditions, often away from family.</para>
<para>During this period of Australia's growth, the knowledge and hard work of First Nations people in the Northern Territory was heavily relied upon and at times exploited.</para>
<para>Unfair Commonwealth laws denied Indigenous people fair financial reward for their efforts in working to build communities across Australia.</para>
<para>When I first came to this place, I spoke in my first speech about a great man, Vincent Lingiari, who led the Wave Hill walk-off in 1966, demanding equal pay and equal rights for his peers.</para>
<para>He was supported by Australians across the country who believed in a fair go for all.</para>
<para>Today, I stand here, a proud Yanyuwa Garrawa woman, and Minister for Indigenous Australians, reflecting on those words.</para>
<para>I acknowledge that the injustices Vincent Lingiari fought against in 1966 had gone on for many years in many different circumstances—particularly in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>Today, I am here to say how deeply sorry I am for that.</para>
<para>I'm sorry for the suffering and injustice inflicted on First Nations people, my people, through the laws of the Commonwealth that denied them the right to fair pay for work done.</para>
<para>I hope the Commonwealth's recent settlement of the Northern Territory historical wages class action, bravely led by Ms Minnie McDonald, can help to bring closure to this shameful chapter in Australia's history.</para>
<para>I hope it allows for our reconciliation journey to continue—one of truth-telling and healing.</para>
<para>Through you, President—I thank Ms McDonald.</para>
<para>Thank you for your courage and strength in leading this class action.</para>
<para>Thank you for sharing some of your story.</para>
<para>In Ms McDonald's own words: 'It was hard when we were growing up. We lived in the bush and didn't have any school. When I was young I started working on stations. I was working with my family—my father, my mother and my brothers were on the station. I later met my husband when working on stations. We had nothing and had to live on bush tucker and a bit of bread. A lot of those people we worked with are gone now. This is about all the people who were working everywhere and never got paid nothing.'</para>
<para>In the hearings, Ms McDonald told the court of how instead of going to school, she was sent to do domestic work at about the age of 14 years, working six days a week for very little pay at Georgina Downs Station and then at Argadargada Station—working, with, and I quote, 'no holidays', 'sweeping up, washing dishes, washing their clothes … scrubbing walls, everything. Never seen the money though.'</para>
<para>President—Ms McDonald wasn't alone.</para>
<para>Thank you to those other members of this class action who travelled long distances last year to share their stories with the court.</para>
<para>Thank you to Bessie Parsons, Frank Holmes, Lilly Stafford, Marie Ellen, Alan Drover, Veronica Dobson, Daniel Forrester, Kennedy Ricky, Billy Grant, Henry Bob, Peter Parlow, Mary Allum, Maisie Smith, Brian Freddie, Linda Turner, Susan Nurra, Marie Allen, Maybelle Bourke, Sister Barbara Tippolay and Nora Sullivan.</para>
<para>I thank those who gave evidence and have since passed away. I acknowledge them and their families.</para>
<para>They recounted the stories working in unfair conditions, often from dawn to dusk, the stories of childhoods spent separated from families, of violence and punishment, the stories of working before, after, and instead of going to school, the stories of working in great physical difficulty, often away from country and away from family, all for very little or no pay.</para>
<para>Thank you all for your patience and grace in waiting for acknowledgement from the Commonwealth for the wrongs you suffered as a result of these laws.</para>
<para>I am grateful and to each of you I say: I am sorry.</para>
<para>I am heartened, though, that, because of your efforts with this class action, a significant cohort of First Nations people and their families in the Northern Territory will now receive compensation for the work performed during these formative years of Australian democracy.</para>
<para>We must tell the truth of this dark period in our country's past.</para>
<para>We must recognise the pain and suffering caused by denying First Nations people their fundamental rights, including the right to fair pay.</para>
<para>To Ms McDonald, to all who gave evidence, to all of those impacted, to First Nations people of the Northern Territory, I am sorry.</para>
<para>Thank you for coming forward with your stories.</para>
<para>Yo bauji barra.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>5434</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Housing Accord</title>
          <page.no>5434</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5434</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning the National Housing Accord.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the documents.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Prudential Regulation Authority</title>
          <page.no>5434</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>5434</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents relating to orders for the production of documents concerning the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CADELL</name>
    <name.id>300134</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the documents.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>5435</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Bill 2024, Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Tax (Imposition) Bill 2024, Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) (Consequential Provisions and Other Matters) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5435</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="r7287" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r7289" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Tax (Imposition) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7295" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) (Consequential Provisions and Other Matters) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>5435</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>5435</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The speech</inline> <inline font-style="italic">es</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">COMMONWEALTH ENTITIES (PAYMENT SURCHARGES) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is part of a package of three bills which together will formalise longstanding Commonwealth practice by providing express, modernised and consistent legislative authority for Commonwealth entities to continue to charge and collect payment surcharges where the entity has the legislative authority to collect a payment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Payment surcharges are commonly imposed by businesses and governments across Australia, including by Commonwealth entities. A payment surcharge is an additional amount paid by a person to cover the acceptance cost of a chosen payment method. Payment surcharges are limited to the amount it costs the merchant (including a Commonwealth entity) to accept that type of payment for that transaction under arrangements with the merchant's banking provider.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Surcharging signals to consumers the cost of their payment method and acknowledges the difference in costs across card and other payment methods. Surcharges cannot exceed merchants' 'cost of acceptance' for card payments. These price signals allow consumers to make more efficient and informed payment choices, and many consumers choose lower-cost or no-cost payment options. When making payments to Commonwealth entities, consumers have a choice of how they will make that payment and information is available about whether a surcharge applies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, there are several ways to make a payment to the Australian Taxation Office. Different payment methods are offered so that customers can choose a method that suits them. A range of payment methods are offered, including electronic transfer and direct debit, as well as paying in person at Australia Post. For some payments, such as using a Visa, Mastercard or American Express card, a card payment fee will apply, but many consumers and businesses choose this payment method. They may choose these payment methods because they find them convenient or they are attracted to card benefits such as reward programs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The package of Bills does not impose new surcharges on those interacting with the Commonwealth, but instead formalises the existing practices of Commonwealth entities under a new modernised whole-of government framework. To that end, the Bills authorise the collection of surcharges by Commonwealth entities from 1 January 2003, to align with when the Reserve Bank of Australia first regulated payment surcharging as part of the then broader payments reforms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also enable the responsible Minister to make Commonwealth surcharging policies, by legislative instrument to support, moving forward, a whole-of -Commonwealth approach to surcharging, including ensuring that any surcharging is applied on a cost recovery basis only. This will also facilitate timely adoption of any changes to whole-of-Government surcharging policy by Commonwealth entities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This package of Bills supports the Government's broader commitment to reviewing and reforming the imposition of card payment surcharges. The Government is prepared to permanently ban all surcharges on debit cards from 1 January 2026, subject to further work by the Reserve Bank of Australia and safeguards to ensure both small businesses and consumers can benefit from lower costs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While the Reserve Bank of Australia completes its important work on the Surcharging Review and how payment fees can be reduced economy-wide, we will stop passing on debit surcharges from the Australian Taxation Office and Services Australia from 1 January 2025.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">COMMONWEALTH ENTITIES (PAYMENT SURCHARGES) TAX (IMPOSITION) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is part of a package of three bills which together will formalise longstanding Commonwealth practice by providing express, modernised and consistent legislative authority for Commonwealth entities to continue to charge and collect payment surcharges where the entity has the legislative authority to collect a payment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill imposes a tax equivalent to the amount of the payment surcharge that has already been collected by a Commonwealth entity, where the authorisation of the past collection of a payment surcharge is beyond the non-tax powers of the Commonwealth.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will commence on the day it receives Royal Assent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">COMMONWEALTH ENTITIES (PAYMENT SURCHARGES) (CONSEQUENTIAL PROVISIONS AND OTHER MATTERS) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is part of a package of three bills which together will formalise longstanding Commonwealth practice by providing express, modernised and consistent legislative authority for Commonwealth entities to continue to charge and collect payment surcharges where the entity has the legislative authority to collect a payment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill makes consequential amendments to support the Commonwealth Entities (Payment Surcharges) Bill 2024.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also authorises the collection of surcharges by Commonwealth entities from 1 January 2003 to align with when the Reserve Bank of Australia first regulated payment surcharging as part of the then broader payments reforms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aged Care (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2024, Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5436</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <p>
              <a href="s1433" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Aged Care (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2024</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r7284" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>5436</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>5436</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">AGED CARE (CONSEQUENTIAL AND TRANSITIONAL PROVISIONS) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I move:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Aged Care (Consequential and Transitional Provisions) Bill 2024 makes transitional and consequential changes to support the commencement of the Aged Care Bill 2024.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is an essential component in enabling us to move forward with once-in-a-generation reform of our aged care system and services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill operates so that the references to the 1997 Acts and the Commission Act in other Commonwealth legislation are read as references to the Aged Care Bill 2024.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 makes consequential changes to the <inline font-style="italic">Crimes Act 1914</inline> and the <inline font-style="italic">National Disability Insurance Scheme Act 2013</inline> to facilitate aged care worker screening checks and align aged care worker screening with NDIS worker screening.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also makes changes to the <inline font-style="italic">Freedom of Information Act 1982</inline>, to give effect to Royal Commission recommendation 88 by removing aged care-specific FOI exemptions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 of the Bill consists of 10 parts—6 of which correspond directly to chapters of the Aged Care Bill. This schedule details the transitional provisions which will ensure the smooth transition of individuals, providers, workers and governance arrangements when the new Aged Care Act commences.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During the exposure draft consultations, we heard very strongly that everyone needs time and support to prepare for the new Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With the changes to the aged care system which the new Act will bring, we recognise everyone will need support to understand what it means for them, what they need to do, and when they need to do it.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We will support older people, providers and workers to prepare for the changes arising from the new Act by providing clarity on what is new, what is changing and what is staying the same.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill includes provisions that will ensure that individuals can move as seamlessly as possible from the 1997 Act, Commonwealth Home Support Program and National Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Flexible Aged Care Program to the new Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill also includes provisions which will deem approved providers to be registered providers under the new Act. This will smooth the transition process for providers and ensure they can continue to provide services to older people, uninterrupted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also includes technical provisions to clarify how provider obligations, governance arrangements, regulatory powers, information management and decision reviews will transition to the new Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also provides a crucial rule making power—to allow transition to be managed in a careful and considered way. The scale of this reform means we need to be able to act quickly during transition to address challenges and unforeseen impacts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, this Bill repeals the <inline font-style="italic">Aged Care Act 1997</inline>, <inline font-style="italic">Aged Care Quality and Safety Commission Act 2018</inline> and the <inline font-style="italic">Aged Care (Transitional Provisions) Act 1997.</inline> From commencement, it will make the Aged Care Act 2024 the Commonwealth's primary aged care legislation and pave the way for the future of aged care.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ONLINE SAFETY AMENDMENT (SOCIAL MEDIA MINIMUM AGE) BILL 2024</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Introduction</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Keeping Australians safe online is a top priority for the Albanese Government. This Government is focused on positive solutions to issues of national concern, and the issue of harms to children and young people from social media is right up the top of that list.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since coming to Government, the Albanese Labor Government have taken steps to turn this focus into meaningful outcomes, with a range of measures to help make the online environment better for young people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Central to this has been the quadrupling of the ongoing base funding for the eSafety Commissioner, to ensure this world-leading regulator has the certainty of resourcing and is equipped to respond to existing and emerging online harms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government has brought forward the review of the Online Safety Act by twelve months. This was in recognition of the need for the Act to remain fit for purpose, and the Government thanks the independent reviewer for recently providing her report.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In May this year, the Government amended the Basic Online Safety Expectations to make clear the Government's expectation that platforms must place the best interest of the child at the centre of their products and services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Social media, as it is commonly and collectively understood, has become a ubiquitous and a normal part of life for all of Australia's society, and many young Australians take part in this activity without adverse consequence. It can be a source of entertainment, education and connection with the world—and each other. Those things, particularly for young Australians, can be beneficial.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But, for too many young Australians, social media can be harmful. Almost two-thirds of 14- to 17-year-old Australians have viewed extremely harmful content online, including drug abuse, suicide or self-harm, as well as violent material. A quarter have been exposed to content promoting unsafe eating habits.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Research conducted by eSafety found that that 95% of Australian caregivers find online safety to be one of their toughest parenting challenges.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Albanese Government has heard the concerns of parents, young people and experts. Social media has a social responsibility to do better to address harms on their platforms. That's why the Government is making big changes to hold platforms to account for user safety.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Online Safety Amendment (Social Media Minimum Age) Bill 2024 will amend the <inline font-style="italic">Online Safety Act 2021</inline> (OSA) by introducing a minimum age of 16 to have an account on age-restricted social media platforms, protecting young Australians at a critical stage of their development.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill puts the onus on social media platforms, not parents or young people, to take reasonable steps to ensure fundamental protections are in place. This is about protecting young people—not punishing or isolating them—and letting parents know the Government is in their corner when it comes to supporting their children's health and wellbeing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government knows that establishing a minimum age for young people having social media accounts is not the only approach that needs to be taken, and also knows that this measure will not be met with universal acceptance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But this is one step among many that a Government should take in the protection and not the isolation of young people. There is wide acknowledgment that something must be done, in the immediate term, to help prevent young teens and children from being exposed to streams of content—unfiltered and infinite.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is the right thing to do for the right reasons at the right time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Through extensive consultation and with the input of states and territories, the Government is agreeing that until a child turns 16, the social media environment as it stands is not age-appropriate for them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government acknowledges everyone who participated in consultation across the country for their contribution, however small, to this world-leading reform.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill does not provide the magic pill to resolve or eliminate every harm children faces online, nor does it seek to rule out digital participation and inclusion for young people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">And it is also acknowledged that harms don't simply switch off on a child's 16th birthday. That is why the Government has taken the decision to bring forward a key recommendation of the Online Safety Act Review, to legislate a Digital Duty of Care.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legislating a Digital Duty of Care is a separate body of work, and will place the onus on digital platforms to proactively keep Australians safe and better prevent online harms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legislating a duty of care will mean services can't 'set and forget'. Instead, their obligations will mean they need to continually identify and mitigate potential risks, as technology and service offerings change and evolve.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While the social media minimum age legislation introduced today is targeted at the protection of children under 16, the duty of care will ensure all Australians are better protected from online harm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Critically, this legislation will allow for a twelve month implementation period—to ensure this novel and world-leading reform can take effect with the care and consideration Australian's rightly expect.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Office of the Australian Information Commissioner will be resourced to provide oversight of the privacy provisions as they relate to this Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Regulated activity</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill establishes an obligation on social media platforms to take reasonable steps to prevent age-restricted users from having an account.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This places the onus on platforms to introduce systems and settings to ensure that under-age users cannot create and hold a social media account. A systemic failure to take action to limit such circumventions could give rise to a breach.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">By regulating the act of 'having an account', as opposed to 'accessing' social media more generally, the Government is seeking to strike a balance between protecting young people from harm, while limiting the regulatory burden on the broader population.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, this obligation would help to mitigate the risks arising from the harmful features that are largely associated with user accounts, or the 'logged-in' state, persistent notifications and alerts, which have been found to have a negative impact on sleep, stress levels, and attention.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Regulated services</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The obligation will apply to 'age-restricted social media platforms', a new term being introduced into the OSA. Its definition includes that a 'significant purpose' of the service is to enable online social interactions between 2 or more users.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While the definition casts a wide net, the Bill allows for flexibility to reduce the scope or further target the definition through legislative rules. Achieving this through rules, rather than primary legislation, enables the Government to be responsive to changes and evolutions in the dynamic social media ecosystem.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rules can be made to allow for additional conditions that must be met, in order to fall within the definition of 'age-restricted social media platform'.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be clear, the Government expects that this broader definition will capture services that are commonly accepted to be social media, and the services that are causing many parents the most concern.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will, at a minimum, include TikTok, Facebook, Snapchat, Reddit, Instagram, X (formerly Twitter), among others. These services will be required to take reasonable steps to prevent persons under 16 years of age from creating or holding an account.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A rule-making power is also available to exclude specific classes of services from the definition. In the first instance, this power will be used to carve out messaging services, online games, and services that significantly function to support the health and education of users.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A key principle of the approach to applying an age limit of 16 to social media was the recognition that our laws should be set to protect young people—not isolate them. There is a legitimate purpose to enabling young people to actively participate in the digital environment where they have grown up. Supporting their digital participation, connection and inclusion is important at every age and stage of a young person's development and our legislation seeks to strike that balance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is not saying that risks don't exist on messenger apps or online gaming.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While users can still be exposed to harmful content by other users, they do not face the same algorithmic curation of content and psychological manipulation to encourage near endless engagement. Further, the inclusion of messaging apps could have wider consequences, such as making communication within families harder.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Online games are currently regulated under the National Classification Scheme. The Scheme provides information on the age suitability of online games through a combination of the classification and relevant consumer advice. Imposing additional age-based regulation to online games would create unnecessary regulatory overlap.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This categorical rule making power is expected to deem out of scope services such as Facebook Messenger Kids, and WhatsApp. The rule will provide for an "out of scope" status to also be applied to services like ReachOut's PeerChat, Kids Helpline 'MyCircle', Google Classroom, YouTube, and other apps that can be shown to function like social media in their interactivity but operate with a significant purpose to enable young people to get the education and health support they need.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Before making a Rule, the Minister must seek advice from the eSafety Commissioner, and must have regard to that advice; and may seek advice from any other authorities or agencies of the Commonwealth that the Minister considers relevant, and may have regard to any such advice.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is an important condition to ensure Rules are made with the appropriate safeguards in place while reflecting community standards.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Privacy safeguards</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Privacy reform in Australia has been long overdue, and the Albanese Government has taken significant steps to bring privacy standards up to community standards.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is novel reform, and to implement a minimum age for social media requires steps to be taken by users to assure age. Where this user is a child, a Government must sharpen its focus with the expected level of care to ensure strong privacy provisions are in place.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While the digital economy has generated significant benefits, including consumer convenience, improved efficiencies and new employment opportunities, it has also resulted in large amounts of information about people being generated, used, disclosed and stored. Widespread adoption and reliance on digital technologies increases the risks that personal data will be subject to misuse or mishandling, including through data breaches, fraud and identity theft, unauthorised surveillance and other significant online harms.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For these reasons, the Bill introduces more robust privacy protections, which strictly prohibit platforms from using information collected for age assurance purposes for any other purpose, unless explicitly agreed to by the individual.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The approach taken in the Bill expands on Australia's privacy framework, taking a heightened approach to information protection that is informed by the 2022 review of the Privacy Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Compliance with the minimum age obligation will likely involve some form of age assurance, which may require the collection, use and disclosure of additional personal information. The Bill makes it explicit that platforms must not use information and data collected for age assurance purposes for any other purpose, unless the individual has provided their consent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This consent must be voluntary, informed, current, specific and unambiguous—this is an elevated requirement that precludes platforms from seeking consent through preselected settings or opt-outs. In addition, once the information has been used for age assurance or any other agreed purpose, it must be destroyed by the platform (or any third party contracted by the platform).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Serious and repeated breaches of these privacy provisions could result in penalties of up to $50 million under section 13G of the Privacy Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the vitality of robust privacy and security for Australians online, in the case of the minimum age for social media, the Government will undertake additional consultation to determine what reasonable amendments we can introduce ahead of passage of the legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Penalties</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In making these reforms, it is critical the Government sends a clear signal to platforms about the importance of their social responsibilities to children and all Australians.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As such, this Bill will impose significant penalties for breaching the minimum age obligation. This will be as high as $49.5 million for bodies corporate, consistent with serious offences set out in the <inline font-style="italic">Privacy Act 1988</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">Competition and Consumer Act 2010</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill increases penalties for breach of industry codes and industry standards to up to $49.5 million for bodies corporate. This addresses the currently low penalties in the OSA, and reflects the systemic nature of the harms that could arise from breaches of the codes and standards.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Additional regulator powers</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill equips the eSafety Commissioner with additional tools and powers to effectively administer the new minimum age framework. This includes powers to request information from platforms about how they are complying with their obligation, particularly the compliance with privacy provisions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Commencement</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The minimum age obligation on social media services will commence no earlier than 12 months from passage of the Bill. This will allow the necessary time for social media platforms to develop and implement required systems.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This timeframe will also enable implementation to be informed by the Age Assurance Trial, which will provide guidance on the market readiness of age assurance technologies, and inform advice to Government and the eSafety Commissioner on implementation and enforcement of the minimum age.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Review</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Bill incorporates a review of the legislation two years after effective commencement. This provides the Government with an opportunity to undertake critical societal measurements of the impacts of the legislation, using qualitative and quantative research to understand how this policy is working for young Australians.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It will allow time to recognise any technological advancements since commencement, to reconsider the definition of an age-restricted social media platform, and to consider whether other digital platforms such as online games or additional social media platforms that can be viewed without an account, should be captured within scope.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will work with the education, health, youth organisations and community organisations throughout implementation and during the review to take in their views.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Conclusion</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This measure is a key component of the Albanese Government's work across the online safety space and will help enable young people to use the internet in a safer and more positive way. It will signal a set of normative values that support parents, educators and society more broadly.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australia has consistently paved the way in global online safety, and the introduction of this legislation is no exception.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill builds upon the Australian Government's work to address online harms for young people, including the age assurance trial, establishing an online dating apps code, legislating new criminal penalties for non-consensual sexual deepfakes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government will ensure young Australians retain access to services that primarily provide education and health services, and work constructively with stakeholders to ensure that only services that meet the strict criteria under eSafety's powers are able to be accessed by children under 16 years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill seeks to set a new normative value in society—that accessing social media is not the defining feature of growing up in Australia.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
<para>Ordered that the resumption of the debate be made an order of the day for a later hour.</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Migration Amendment (Prohibiting Items in Immigration Detention Facilities) Bill 2024</title>
          <page.no>5440</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body background="" style="" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships">
            <a href="r7291" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Migration Amendment (Prohibiting Items in Immigration Detention Facilities) Bill 2024</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>5440</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>5440</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"><inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">A well-functioning migration system is essential to Australia's social, cultural and economic wellbeing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An essential feature of a well-functioning immigration system is the ability to, where necessary, safely detain non-citizens pending their removal from Australia or while their visa status is otherwise resolved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Over recent years, asylum seekers have been replaced in immigration detention by individuals who have had their visas cancelled on character grounds, who often have serious criminal histories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">About 90 per cent of the current caseload hold a criminal conviction, including violent and drug-related crimes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The current cohort includes Outlaw Motorcycle Gang members, which brings a higher degree of volatility and organised criminality.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These convicted criminals seek to continue their criminal behaviour in immigration detention, which has led to an increasing number of events that threaten the health, safety and security of staff and other detainees, as well as visitors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These events have included harassment, intimidation, threats of violence and actual violence, often fuelled by alcohol and illicit substances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There have been incidents of criminals in detention facilities using encrypted messaging services to run drug trafficking and other organised crime activities. This causes harm not just to people in detention facilities but to the broader Australian Community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These behaviours are not acceptable anywhere in Australia; they are not acceptable in Immigration Detention Facilities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Officers need expanded powers, including the power to search and seize communication devices to stop this from happening.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill responds to calls for action from the Australian Border Force, as well as external parties including the Australian Human Rights Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Human Rights Commission's report into conditions at Yongah Hill Immigration Detention Centre recommended expanded search powers for staff.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill would amend the Migration Act to allow the Minister to determine, via a disallowable legislative instrument, that an item is a 'prohibited thing' in relation to Immigration Detention Facilities or persons in detention, if the Minister is satisfied that the thing is unlawful to possess in a place or places in Australia or if the thing would pose a risk to the health, safety or security of a person in a facility, or the order of a facility.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also strengthen powers to search for, screen, seize and retain prohibited and controlled items without a warrant, and allow for searches within centres, including the use of detector dogs to search the premises.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will include safeguards to ensure a detainee's right to communicate freely continues to be met.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill specifically requires that to exercise the powers to search for and seize a prohibited thing that is otherwise not unlawful to possess or use, an officer must first believe on reasonable grounds that such search or seizure is necessary to prevent or lessen a risk to the health, safety or security of people in the immigration detention facility, or to the good order of the facility.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">If such a thing is seized it must also be returned as soon as an officer no longer holds that view and the detainee requests its return.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, to ensure the right of detainees to engage in communications with others outside of the detention facilities is maintained, if the thing that is seized is a mobile phone or communication device, the detainee will be provided with an alternative device until such time as their device is returned. This will ensure there is no impact on their ability to contact their friends and family, or to engage in any other lawful communication under their constitutionally-implied rights.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The alternative means of communication must be reasonably sufficient to enable the detainee to communicate with family, as well as anyone outside the facility for the purposes of obtaining legal advice.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be clear, the Bill does not establish a blanket prohibition against the possession or use of mobile phones in immigration detention.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Communication devices may only be confiscated when they are being used in a way which would pose a risk to the safety of others in the facility.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The powers provided in this Bill are reasonable, proportionate and essential to ensure the safety and wellbeing of all people in immigration detention facilities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill effectively balances the rights of the individuals with the duty of care owed by the Commonwealth, and I commend it to the Chamber.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be taken together with the Migration Amendment Bill 2024 and the Migration Amendment (Removal and Other Measures) Bill 2024 for their remaining stages.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</title>
        <page.no>5441</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Standards</title>
          <page.no>5441</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before we move on with further business of the Senate, I intend to make a further statement to the chamber. In the statement I made before question time today, I noted that the disorderly conduct in the Senate this morning culminated in Senator Thorpe tearing up papers and throwing them at Senator Hanson. I expressed the very strong view that such conduct is not acceptable, that senators must conduct themselves in an orderly fashion and that physically threatening behaviour will not be tolerated. I indicated that I would be meeting with the Deputy President and the leaders of the government, the opposition and the Greens to consider what actions should be taken in relation to that conduct. I have now had the opportunity to have those discussions, which indicated to me that senators from around the chamber consider that the conduct involved was highly disorderly.</para>
<para>At 4.30 pm today, I wrote to Senator Thorpe indicating that I intended to make a further statement at 6 pm. I also drew to her attention the operation of standing order 203, which deals with disorderly conduct. I indicated that I considered it would be in Senator Thorpe's interest to attend the Senate at that time. She has indicated to me that she will not be in the chamber this evening.</para>
<para>To explain the process, when a senator is named under standing order 203, they have a right to attend the Senate to make an explanation or an apology. Any senator may then move a motion proposing that the senator be suspended from the sittings of the Senate. Under the standing orders, any such motion must be put without amendment or debate. Although the procedure gives a senator the right to make an explanation or an apology, the Senate may proceed to consider a suspension motion even if the senator chooses not to attend. Against that background I name Senator Thorpe in accordance with standing order 203. My reasons are her disorderly conduct this morning. In determining not to attend this evening, Senator Thorpe has denied herself the opportunity to make an explanation or an apology.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Ordinarily at this point I would move a motion to suspend a senator, as provided for under standing order 203(3). That would have the effect of the senator being suspended for the remainder of the sitting day. Given the gravity of the conduct with which we are dealing and given the time, I instead ask the leave of the Senate to move that the senator be suspended from the Senate until the end of the sitting tomorrow.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That Senator Thorpe be suspended from the sittings of the Senate until the end of sitting on 28 November 2024.</para></quote>
<para>I will make some brief remarks. All Australians have a right to be safe at work, whether it's working in retail, hospitality or hospitals or whether they're our parliamentary staff, our chamber staff or us senators in this place. We all know that the standards in this place need to be lifted. Successive governments in this parliament have taken action to implement all 28 recommendations of the <inline font-style="italic">Set the standard</inline> report. We established the PWSS, and we followed with the establishment of the Independent Parliamentary Standards Commission. We've also endorsed behaviour standards and codes of conduct that apply to us. We've amended legislation to clarify work health and safety arrangements in the Commonwealth parliaments, and we've reviewed the parliamentary sitting calendar and routine of business in light of the recommendations from <inline font-style="italic">Set the standard</inline>. In doing this, we as a government—and I think we as a parliament—have sought to make this workplace safer and more respectful for all.</para>
<para>Too frequently, President, as you and the Deputy President have outlined, debate in this place has turned to aggression and to hateful and personal attacks. There have been dozens of instances, including multiple instances of Senator Thorpe making inappropriate, sometimes abusive, comments towards other senators and then disrupting proceedings by refusing to withdraw. Despite attempts to work with Senator Thorpe, she's increasingly engaged in such behaviour in this Senate. This fortnight alone, the senator has been censured by the Senate, sworn in the chamber, repeatedly made offensive gestures when leaving the chamber and made comments resulting in First Nations senators from across this chamber feeling culturally unsafe.</para>
<para>All of that was prior to today's incident, which culminated in Senator Thorpe tearing up papers and throwing them at another senator on the Senate floor. This behaviour would not be tolerated in any workplace, and we cannot tolerate it in our workplace. We all have a responsibility for our behaviour, whether in this place or contributing to public debate. We are all elected to represent Australians and their interests, and we come together in a contest of ideas. We express our views respectfully to understand each other's perspectives and those of our electors and, ultimately, to reach a majority view about the best path forward. Ultimately, we should be working to advance the interests of all Australians. When we work together, this place demonstrates the best of our great nation, but that work requires respect for each other and for this institution. Part of that are the rules that operate in this place so that it functions in the interests of all Australians. When the foundations of that respect are undermined, we all suffer. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask leave of the chamber to make a short statement that will explain the position that the Greens will take once the vote is called.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We will give leave after the motion has been dealt with.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the question be put.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:12]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>45</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Wong, P.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>11</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion to suspend moved by Senator Wong be agreed to.</para>
<para> </para>
<para> </para>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [18:15]<br />(The President—Senator Lines)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>46</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Antic, A.</name>
                <name>Askew, W.</name>
                <name>Ayres, T.</name>
                <name>Babet, R.</name>
                <name>Bilyk, C. L.</name>
                <name>Birmingham, S. J.</name>
                <name>Bragg, A. J.</name>
                <name>Brown, C. L.</name>
                <name>Cadell, R.</name>
                <name>Cash, M. C.</name>
                <name>Chandler, C.</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A.</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R.</name>
                <name>Darmanin, L.</name>
                <name>Duniam, J. R.</name>
                <name>Farrell, D. E.</name>
                <name>Fawcett, D. J.</name>
                <name>Gallagher, K. R.</name>
                <name>Ghosh, V.</name>
                <name>Grogan, K.</name>
                <name>Hanson, P. L.</name>
                <name>Henderson, S. M.</name>
                <name>Hughes, H. A.</name>
                <name>Kovacic, M.</name>
                <name>Lambie, J.</name>
                <name>Liddle, K. J.</name>
                <name>Lines, S.</name>
                <name>McAllister, J. R.</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M.</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B.</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A. L.</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D. M.</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, M. A.</name>
                <name>Pocock, D. W.</name>
                <name>Polley, H.</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L. K.</name>
                <name>Roberts, M. I.</name>
                <name>Ruston, A.</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A. V.</name>
                <name>Smith, D. A.</name>
                <name>Smith, M. F.</name>
                <name>Sterle, G.</name>
                <name>Stewart, J. N. A.</name>
                <name>Urquhart, A. E. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J. C.</name>
                <name>Wong, P.</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>11</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Allman-Payne, P. J.</name>
                <name>Cox, D.</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M.</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, S. C.</name>
                <name>Hodgins-May, S.</name>
                <name>McKim, N. J. (Teller)</name>
                <name>Pocock, B.</name>
                <name>Shoebridge, D.</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J. A.</name>
                <name>Waters, L. J.</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, P. S.</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names />
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—In all aspects of life there is always a time to draw a line in the sand, and I welcome the fact that this Senate has finally drawn a line in the sand to the reprehensible and repeated disruptive and disrespectful conduct of Senator Thorpe. Of course, this decision just taken relates to the incident that occurred this morning which well and truly crossed a line in that it entered the domain of physical conduct in this chamber, not just the type of verbal conduct that we have so repeatedly seen. Physical conduct towards another senator can have no place and no tolerance in this place.</para>
<para>But it was, as Senator Wong acknowledged, a pattern of escalating and disrespectful behaviour—escalatory behaviour on repeated occasions that showed complete and repeated disrespect for you, President, in the chair and for all fellow senators. But, perhaps even more importantly, it created a workplace environment for clerks, for attendants, for security and for others around this chamber where they too felt at least uncomfortable and potentially worse. That is why it was so important to draw the line in the sand today and to be clear that there are standards this chamber will uphold and that those standards should be reflective of what any other workplace would expect. It is a special privilege to stand in this place as a senator. We get special privileges from standing in this place as a senator, and we should respect those privileges and show respect to one another when we exercise those privileges.</para>
<para>President, it is beyond disappointing. It is a shameful double standard that we just saw from the Greens in opposing the setting of that standard and the drawing of the line that we had in this vote. The Greens would in no other circumstances tolerate from any major party senator—be they a Labor senator, Liberal senator or Nats senator—or, indeed, most of the crossbench—</para>
<para>Opposition senators: Hear, hear!</para>
<para>An opposition senator: That's right.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>the type of behaviour that we saw today. They would be the first to call for the type of action the Senate has just taken. And there is a message in that for Australians. Senator Thorpe is only here because she was a Greens candidate, and, though she may no longer be a member of the Greens, the Greens are willing to defend behaviour that no other member of this Senate voted to defend. Not the Labor Party, not the Liberal Party, not the National Party, nor any other member of the crossbench was willing to defend the type of behaviour that the Senate has rightly just called out. I hope that Australians do not just judge Senator Thorpe for her actions today and the disrespect she has shown to the institution of our parliament but judge the Australian Greens for the disrespect they have shown to the institution of our parliament.</para>
<para>I hope that all senators and Senator Thorpe can reflect upon these proceedings in a way that shows the type of respect that this place deserves in the future. We should have robust debates, we should absolutely have strong disagreements in this place, but how we conduct those debates should, as per the Jenkins review—which, as the Minister for Finance, I was proud to commission and proud to work with Kate Jenkins on—set the standard for how the nation debates its differences, not demonstrate the type of disrespect that drives division in our community.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Birmingham. Before I call you, Senator Waters, I remind senators there is a gravity to this debate. Every person who speaks tonight, whether you agree with their opinion or not, will be heard in silence.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to address the decision that the Greens took to oppose the motion to suspend Senator Thorpe from this place, of which she is a member and in which, I note, tomorrow morning she is scheduled to have a private member's bill debated in her name, a bill that addresses issues of genocide, which I know we all feel very strongly about. I want to make it clear that the Greens do not condone the use of physical violence. I'm pretty sure people would know that that is our position. And we do not think that the behaviour of Senator Thorpe, in tearing up the paper and sending that in the direction of Senator Hanson, was a behaviour that we would like to see repeated. It's not a behaviour that we think is appropriate. We also do not think that the approach of denying her for an entire day the ability to exercise her vote in this Senate is an appropriate and proportionate response to that action. I want to make it clear that we do not support the action that was taken and nor would we wish to see it repeated.</para>
<para>I would like to add that a number of people in this place often feel unsafe in this workplace. A number of our senators feel unsafe due to the conduct of Senator Thorpe, and a number of senators in this place feel unsafe due to the conduct of Senator Hanson. Let us all reflect on how we behave, but let those of us who live with white privilege remember that institutionalised racism doesn't affect us as it does people of colour. I believe we have an obligation to think and consider what is an appropriate response in this situation. We do need to set the standard, and I acknowledge that folk have been feeling unsafe in this place, but context is important.</para>
<para>I'm sure anyone who was in the chamber would realise that the behaviours that were undertaken this morning came about following an attempt by another senator to exclude a different senator of colour, and it was in the context of a debate that had racially charged overtones. I acknowledge that, in a proceeding taken by Senator Faruqi, Senator Hanson has recently been shown by a court to have breached the Racial Discrimination Act. That is the context in which we have approached our response to today's behaviour.</para>
<para>In conclusion, whilst we don't support the behaviour of Senator Thorpe, we were not willing to support suspending her from this chamber. We acknowledge that, as a society and as a chamber, we have a lot to do to confront racism, and we must all actively seek to do that every single day.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I just remind the Senate that Senator Wong gave leave at the conclusion of her address.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I just want to say thank you to my fellow senators in supporting this motion to do with Senator Thorpe. Yes, it does need to be a safe workplace for everyone in this chamber, but I cannot believe the way the Greens have now voted against this motion. They've admitted that they don't agree with her behaviour in this chamber. This is not the first time; this is continual. People must understand what has happened in this chamber.</para>
<para>I differ with Senator Thorpe on her policies, but it's a robust place where we must have the opportunity to discuss our policies and put them forward in whatever way we want, to represent the people of Australia to the best of our ability in what we think is right. People don't realise the intimidation I've found over a period of time. This is why I find it laughable to hear what Senator Waters has just said about my intimidation of other senators in this place, saying that I am causing them harm in the workplace. I reject that comment totally.</para>
<para>Senator Thorpe, when she left the Greens, actually asked to be sat right beside me. She asked for that seat there, where Senator Lambie used to sit. Why would she want to sit beside me? During that period of time—you, President, didn't know this—there were barbs and jibes and everything directed at me constantly that I had to deal with. I eventually said, 'Please move her from close to me.' No-one was prepared to do it, so I had to move across here to distance myself, because I knew the issue that was happening. I was told: 'Go back where you came from. You wouldn't know, you white colonialist. You have the privileges. You have no idea.' These were all while I was directing a question to the minister on education. This has been constantly happening here, so don't tell me that I've done anything. I completely ignored her and I was happy to move from my seat to stop the aggression and problems that were happening in the Senate. I've actually tried to behave.</para>
<para>I respect this chamber and what it represents. This is the heart of our democracy, but each and every one of you knows that, since Senator Thorpe has been in this place, it has been the downfall of this chamber because of her aggression, calling each and every one of us who is white colonialists who have stolen the land. That's not what this place is about, and that's why I'm pleased to see this. Something had to be done to rein in what has been happening in the chamber. There's been aggression that's been shown by Senator Thorpe to many senators in this place. I was also shirtfronted in this chamber by Senator Thorpe. I will say to the Greens: it's one of your mates, I know. You got her elected to this place, but stick with the facts, which I always try to do in this place.</para>
<para>This has to be a safe workplace. I appreciate the senators who have come up to me today and said, 'Are you okay?' I really appreciate that. I am okay. I've had to get a bloody tough skin over these years, and I've toughened up. But it's not about me here; it's about our workplace. We have a right to work and feel safe in our environment and not feel intimidated or threatened. That's what it's about. What irritates me is that the Greens are out there championing the workplace for women. What am I? Am I not a woman? Shouldn't I be protected as well, or is it only when it suits you? That's not good enough.</para>
<para>I hope this does send a clear message to Senator Thorpe. She's been given the opportunity to hold a very special place in this parliament and to act on behalf of all Australians who want clear, decisive representation with equality—it's not about race. That's what I'm here for. I reach out to Senator Thorpe and ask her to do the same. People want representatives who will do the best for all of us as Australians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—As leader of the National Party in this chamber, I rise to make a contribution about the series of behaviours we've all seen over this parliament and the gradual decline of respect for the chamber—for the institution itself, for each other and for the diversity we all bring to this chamber. This chamber, much more so than across the way, reflects the diversity of our democracy in a very real way. The freedom to debate and discuss, to test ideas and policies for the best way forward for our nation, occurs in this chamber, on this floor, in this space more than it ever can or does in the other chamber. We test that fiercely, ferociously at times and fervently, but always we must respect the democracy that brought us here to have the freedom to do that. When that can't or won't happen then we must not fail to call that out and stand up for this institution against the disruptors, who proudly come in and say their modus operandi is to destroy this, to destroy the very framework on which our democracy survives.</para>
<para>The freedom that allows people to superglue themselves to trams, to march in capital cities—or, in my own communities, to get in their tractors and take to the streets about a whole range of matters—starts here. I've seen the denigration of that over time. If we allow institutions to erode and the respect for the institutions to erode, then the freedoms we enjoy not just in this chamber but outside this chamber, which are embedded in our Constitution, will cease to exist. My grave fear is that a major political voice in this country, being the Greens, has chosen to side with the denigration of the institution, to say it's okay. I think that is a threat, in the end, to our very democracy and I'm very, very concerned.</para>
<para>I am very glad that the parties of government and the rest of the crossbench senators chose to take the appropriate action, to reflect to the Australian citizenry that we in this chamber want to do our very best every single day we come in here on their behalf, despite our fierce differences.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That concludes the discussion.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>5446</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee</title>
          <page.no>5446</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>5446</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senators Colbeck, Askew and Chandler, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Environment and Communications References Committee for inquiry and report by 18 December 2024:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Minister for the Environment and Water's refusal to make a decision on the future of the salmon industry in Macquarie Harbour and end the uncertainty for the Tasmanian families whose livelihoods depend on it, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the recent improving oxygenation levels and significantly improved prospects of the Maugean skate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the need for bipartisan support of the salmon industry;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the catastrophic effect a negative decision would have on the community of Strahan;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the disastrous effect of continued delays of this Government making a decision; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) any other related matters.</para></quote>
<para>I move the motion standing in the names of the senators just mentioned, some very fine Tasmanians who actually care about the salmon industry and want the best outcome for the people that work in that industry, the families they support and the communities they're a part of. That's why we're moving this motion today—because it's high time, past time, as a matter of fact, that a decision was made by this Labor government on this industry and its future in Tasmania. The motion, for those listening along at home, is about establishing an inquiry into the salmon industry and the decision-making process of this minister, Minister Plibersek, the Labor environment minister, who, at the behest of the Australia Institute, the Bob Brown Foundation and, of course, Labor's taxpayer funded Environmental Defenders Office, has sought to review permits that have been in place since the year 2012, permits that were issued by then environment minister Tony Burke in the last Labor government. So, at the behest of those groups, the industry now has Damocles's sword hanging above it with no certainty in sight.</para>
<para>The motion asks us to take note of the fact that it has now been quite some time for the minister to make a decision—we're up to about a year now—and the minister's refusal to make a decision is creating great uncertainty. So we want to investigate: the recent improving oxygenation levels and significantly improved prospects for the maugean skate; the need for a bipartisan approach to the future of the salmon industry, which I think is important—reasonable parties of government should be on the same page here; and the catastrophic effect a negative decision would have on the community of Strahan. While it does say 'Strahan'—we'll come back to this in a later clause of this motion—the decision to, in effect, shut down the salmon industry, which is an option this minister has before her, one she refuses to exercise in either direction, could be far-reaching. It could have ramifications for thousands of Tasmanian salmon workers, approximately 5,000, their families and the communities they live in. And, of course, we want to investigate the disastrous effect of continued delays of this government making a decision.</para>
<para>All we want is certainty. That's why we're having this conversation. It is incredible that we are, after a year of talking, community visits and political leaders going and pledging support for this industry. We've had the Prime Minister fly to Tasmania saying he has got the salmon workers' backs. The opposition leader did the same thing, and he committed in policy terms to actually make a decision to support the industry and indeed then go and change the laws to ensure that this never happens again. As my friend and colleague Senator Colbeck points out, the Leader of the Opposition indeed drove to Strahan. He went and looked the workers in the eyes. He saw their workplace to understand firsthand exactly what was being experienced here and why making a decision urgently, in favour of the industry, when you look at the facts and you look at the science, was so critically important. The minister hasn't gone to Strahan, nor has the Prime Minister. They've been to major population centres, like Hobart, but they haven't gone to speak to the workers impacted by this decision.</para>
<para>So here we are a year on—several conversations, meetings, media events and platitudes from Labor ministers about the future of this industry, but no movement and no certainty. Even the Tasmanian Labor opposition want this government to act. That includes the state member for Lyons, Ms Rebecca White, former Labor leader. She has lost three state elections now, but she has been tapped on the shoulder to replace incumbent Labor member for Lyons in this parliament, Mr Brian Mitchell. They knew they weren't going to win the seat, so they thought, 'Well, we'd better fly someone in and gift her that seat.' She has said in the Tasmanian parliament that this government, this Labor government, of which my colleagues opposite are a part, should make the right decision and support the salmon industry. As recently as a month or so ago, she said the minister should make the right decision and support the industry. I will be very interested to see whether Ms White continues that narrative as the federal candidate for Lyons or whether she will adopt the new-found view that seems to emanate through the federal Labor caucus, which is: 'We'd just better wait and see. Let's have a little bit more of a look at things. What's another year? Let's kick the can down the road to the other side of a federal election.' That's what's happened here. You can be guaranteed that for this minister, who is worried about the Greens nipping at her heels electorally in her electorate of Sydney, making a difficult decision of this nature will come at a cost to her in her seat. If she supports the salmon industry—which, I can see, some on the other side would like her to do—she'll lose votes in her electorate, so she doesn't want to make a decision. She wants to protect her job, and the price of saving her seat is the jobs of Tasmanian salmon workers—families who are making plans and who are planning what they should do for their kids with the lack of certainty around future employment: 'Should we stay in Strahan or should we move on?' These are the conversations happening now, as they head into their second Christmas with this Labor uncertainty—a minister who refuses to make a decision in favour of the industry based on science and fact. This is something that should be in Labor's DNA—standing up for workers in industries like the salmon industry—but that is not what is happening here.</para>
<para>There are very different views of what should be happening on the West Coast, in Macquarie Harbour. I know for a fact that, when they make their contribution, the Australian Greens and colleagues from Tasmania from that party will say that the industry is the worst thing ever, that it's going to end life on the West Coast and that we should shut it down. That's the call they've been making. But credit to them: I know where they stand, and I know exactly what they think should happen with the salmon industry. And I'd like to think, given we've said that if we are elected at the next election we will approve the operation of salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour and change the laws to ensure that decisions and events like this never happen again, people know where we stand: we stand with the industry. But the one group of people in this place I'm not sure about is the Australian Labor Party. Are they with the salmon workers or do they want things to drag on forever and a day, creating more uncertainty in that community? The Tasmanian Labor contingent and the state opposition in the Tasmanian parliament know where they stand. The Liberal government in Tasmania know where they stand. The Tasmanian Greens know where they stand. We all know where we stand, except for the decision-makers here in Canberra. The Australian Labor government, the Albanese government, friend of the worker, wants a future made in Australia but is causing untold harm by not making a decision.</para>
<para>I know there are some, as I said before, that would like to see a good outcome—some who have been described by others as 'salmon champions'. But the test of a real champion is one that delivers the outcome needed. The opposition can't force the government to make a decision. The Greens can't force the government to make a decision. Only those within the Labor caucus can force the government to make a decision. There is nothing stopping this minister. We had officials from the Department of Climate Change, Energy, the Environment and Water tell us just two weeks ago at Senate estimates that the extension of time for the Threatened Species Scientific Committee to look at the listing of the maugean skate had nothing to do with the decision-making process the minister was going through in reviewing the permits for salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour—not one thing to do with it. The science is in, and the department have all of it. They were finalising their report for the minister. It's there for her to make a decision on. This does not have to wait until after the election. There is no reason that those salmon workers, those men and women, honest Tasmanians, should have to wait for this minister to take in further information; it is there for a decision to be made.</para>
<para>That's why an inquiry is good, to understand why this minister persists in delaying. What is it that is holding up a decision that would provide certainty for those individuals, their families, their communities, this industry and the Tasmanian economy that would be harmed by this? You have to wonder: why is it being delayed? As we know, it's not the Threatened Species Scientific Committee and it's not the lack of desire from good Tasmanians of all political persuasions that want an outcome; it is purely about the politics. That's the thing; it is all about the politics. The government want to not have to explain to one side of the debate or the other why they've made a decision. They want to appease the Greens and they want to appease Greens voters, who they will hopefully get the preferences of to help them secure seats, but they don't want to annoy the workers. They would like to say: 'We've got your back and you'll have a job under us.' I'm afraid those words are hollow, and the workers down there on the West Coast are starting to know that and are starting to see that this is about protecting parliamentarians' jobs at the expense of the industry's jobs. There is a lot of madness out there.</para>
<para>I was reflecting on some of those vocal opponents of the industry and some of the things they've been saying, which is what's driven the minister to delay her decision—this fear of green groups and what they do. There's a document circulating in Tasmania called the <inline font-style="italic">Dennes Point Declaration</inline>, and it was signed by a group of anti-salmon-farming activists—some well known, some less well known. There are two versions of it, and I can't understand why! The first version, which was produced in October 2020 as they began their crusade against this science based, job-creating sustainable industry, called for a moratorium over any new industrial fish farms in Tasmania's coastal, estuary and river waters. It also called for an immediate government led transition out of coastal leases and into land based farms and true deep-ocean aquaculture.</para>
<para>Around this time, the former government announced funding—and it's been continued by the current government—for the Blue Economy CRC to investigate, as the <inline font-style="italic">Den</inline><inline font-style="italic">ne</inline><inline font-style="italic">s Point Declaration</inline> describes it, true deep-ocean aquaculture. Soon after that announcement, our good friends from the Neighbours of Fish Farming and the Tasmanian Alliance for Marine Protection—so pleasantly named, so insidious in their motives—changed their <inline font-style="italic">Dennes Point</inline><inline font-style="italic">Declaration</inline>. I want you to spot the difference. They asked for this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">1. A moratorium on any new industrial fish farms in Tasmania's coastal, estuary and river waters.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. An immediate government led transition out of the sea and into landbased farms.</para></quote>
<para>What's missing? It's the move off into Commonwealth waters, into true offshore, deep-ocean aquaculture, which was something that we were trialling and seeking to do. But, because a good, science based approach to decision-making to try to resolve an issue meant that there was one fewer argument, they had to delete it from their declaration. It's proof positive that, no matter what you do, there are some in our community who, based on emotion, on politics and on the need for division and relevance, will never be happy. I tell you what: if we came up with further moves and things to appease this group, they would delete them from this declaration as well. It is just about an end to salmon farming.</para>
<para>I implore the government and salmon champions of all colours to stand up for this industry, to support an inquiry to understand why on earth we're still waiting for a decision. It's not about the science; it's all in. Workers deserve certainty before Christmas. We've got a sitting day left, and we could have this decision made before we go home from Canberra. While we're getting paid every fortnight as parliamentarians, these workers are worried about their jobs and about the future of this industry. We in the coalition stand with them. There is no reason for a delay. There is every reason to have an inquiry if the government isn't going to give us a decision before we go home.</para>
<para>So let's put people's words to the test here. The vote on this motion will clearly demonstrate where people stand on this, whether they're pro-industry or whether they want to prolong the uncertainty, team up with the Greens and shut down this industry.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The irony of this motion is not lost on us. Those on the other side are claiming bipartisanship is needed, but this political stunt is anything but that. Those opposite know that Labor is the party protecting the mighty Tasmanian salmon industry. We're doing so by working with the industry and with communities. We are investing tens of millions of dollars in evidence based measures to secure a future for the industry and for Macquarie Harbour.</para>
<para>As recently as a fortnight ago, the Prime Minister visited Braddon to announce $28.6 million in sustainability measures. This funding is intended to secure a future for the industry in Macquarie Harbour. That's right; it's $28.6 million, in case you didn't hear it the first time. That will put the industry on a firm footing for the future. It will support the natural habitat of Macquarie Harbour and the preservation of the endangered maugean skate. This funding builds on the government's announcement in September 2023 of $2.15 million for skate conservation and a trial of harbour oxygenation. Labor's new funding commitment allows this important work to continue and expand.</para>
<para>We are the party investing in the sustainability of the industry, and that will deliver its future. Those opposite aren't. This motion has happened without consultation with the industry, who know nothing about it. It's a blindside—so much for your community connections. It's happened without consultation with us—so much for the call for bipartisanship. Those opposite are embarrassingly rogue on this one.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister could not have been clearer about Labor's position when he visited Braddon. He said: 'What we are doing here is making sure that every step is made to ensure the industry can continue. The salmon industry is the backbone of many regional Tasmanian communities, and we are backing that and delivering stability for workers and their families into the future. I'll be visiting Strahan over the coming months at the invitation of the mayor, Shane Pitt, and talking about ensuring that those jobs and that industry can continue.' He went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We want jobs and we want sustainability. It's not either-or. It's a matter of how we achieve both.</para></quote>
<para>And the Prime Minister said, in that same statement, 'I am committed to that.'</para>
<para>Labor knows that salmon is a really important industry for Tasmania, and Labor is a great supporter of this industry. But that's not what the opposition wants people to believe, because they want to engage in a divisive political fight. I can tell you who your divisive behaviour will hurt: the industry, the workers, their families and the communities who rely on good, well-paid regional jobs. We are also the party that takes seriously the legal obligations with respect to the environment—obligations which were set up under a former Liberal government. The grandstanding and politicisation of this issue by those opposite is a betrayal of the workers and their families and communities. What those opposite know but are not telling the workers, the council or the community in calling for the minister to bypass the legislation is that it would plunge the industry into an illegal quagmire.</para>
<para>Labor stand on the side of jobs, and we also stand on the side of sustainability. These two things are not contradictory; they go together. I stand on the side of workers, their families and communities on the west coast and on the north-west, and I'll keep working with those who want to secure a better future for the industry—not the wreckers opposite.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government committed $7½ million to an oxygenation trial. It was a pilot project—a barge they call the <inline font-style="italic">Wombat</inline>, which is owned by Tassal and leased to the joint venture at a profit. So Tassal is profiting from this taxpayer funded trial. Senator Urquhart, you should really listen to what I've got to say because it's going to involve—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson, please don't cast aspersions on why senators are leaving the chamber. Please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor's committed $7½ million to this trial that's initially looking at whether pumping oxygen into Macquarie Harbour, which is the last known home of the maugean skate, a critically endangered species, of which, it is estimated, there are between 40 and 100 adults left in the wild—they've committed this money to, firstly, see if putting oxygen into the harbour does harm.</para>
<para>I asked the FRDC, who was the federal body who funded this, for a copy of the joint venture details of the project. They weren't able to provide that to me, but they did provide the timeline for the expenditure and the milestones for Macquarie Harbour and what they were trying to achieve. Here's the rub. Here's the really important part. The project is a scientific study, a pilot project, to test whether oxygen being pumped into Macquarie Harbour will do harm or whether it will help, and it doesn't finish until 31 October next year. The $7½ million, the timetable and the milestones culminate in a final report written by scientists, funded by the taxpayer.</para>
<para>But here you have the Australian Labor Party swinging into Tasmania and offering $28 million to some of the most profitable companies that operate in Australia—multinationals, foreign owned, that pay no tax. They gave them $28 million to continue the oxygenation project and to expand it. And they haven't got their final report; it's 12 months away. Why is the Labor Party committing taxpayer funds to a scientific project that's a year away from reporting? That's the question, and I know the answer to that. It's because they want to get Senator Urquhart elected in Braddon. Two hours after the Prime Minister committed $28 million, they launched Senator Urquhart's run for the lower house in Braddon. She quite openly said today that this money for the salmon industry is why you need to vote for Labor. It couldn't be a clearer example of institutional corruption, cronyism and state capture, where a government is running this program for the salmon industry, giving them taxpayer funds and trying to get a candidate elected. It really is disgusting.</para>
<para>To hear Senator Urquhart in here today, saying the things she was saying about Labor being the biggest champion for the salmon industry—what about the maugean skate, a creature about to go critically extinct, according to all the best science? Guess what we're going to do? We're going to turn Macquarie Harbour, the last known home of the skate on the edge of a World Heritage area, into a giant aerated fish tank. We are breeding skates and I've been to see the breeding program. It has been successful because they are giving the skates nutrients and a diet they don't get in the wild. We've got no idea if we can reintroduce them in the wild—how could you if their last known home is polluted? That bit hasn't been solved yet, so we're talking about the extinction of a species here. It's all about politics—this is extinction politics.</para>
<para>To Senator Duniam—through you, Chair—the Greens would have been very happy to have supported a Senate inquiry looking at this issue but, as you were told, we couldn't support these terms of reference. It is clearly a political stunt where you guys are trying to see who has the biggest muscles in supporting the salmon industry. Maybe I'm missing something after the years in politics, but I don't get the politics of this for either side. There's not a large industry on the west coast of Tasmania. Most Tasmanians don't support the salmon industry. There are a lot of voters in Braddon that support, for example, people like Craig Garland, who don't support the salmon industry. Right around the state, Tasmanians are worried—there's about to be a massive rally of all sorts of people from all walks of life. By the way, if anyone wants to attend, at Clifton Beach at 10 o'clock on Sunday morning there's a massive rally against salmon farming at the mouth of the Derwent. What is the politics of this? Why are you giving $28 billion of taxpayer money to the salmon industry? They don't need it. They're the ones polluting Macquarie Harbour, pushing a species to extinction. Why don't they pay for their bloody mess? Why does the Australian taxpayer have to do this? Sorry, I forgot—so you can get a candidate elected in Braddon. That's it. This is one of the worst cases. You can call it pork-barrelling, you can call it corruption—I don't care what you call it but it is wrong. It is morally repugnant that you could so brazenly launch money for a project that's 12 months away from even reporting whether it works. What about the science?</para>
<para>What about the other thing we haven't talked about today? I really do feel sorry for Minister Plibersek on many levels. She's got a court case before her right now and a proposition from the Threatened Species Scientific Committee to upgrade the skate from 'endangered' to 'critically endangered'. From all the data that they have provided—and these are some of the best experts in the world, and they say there are 40-120 adults left in the wild, and salmon is a 'catastrophic risk', to use their language, to the future of the skate. Minister Plibersek is over here hoping to make an independent decision on upgrading the skate to 'critically endangered' or whether what has happened in Macquarie Harbour is a controlled action under federal law and needs to be re-assessed, while Mr Albanese and Senator Urquhart have completely ridden over the top of Minister Plibersek and her department by saying, 'Here's $28 million; this is a live election issue.' How can she possibly make a decision based on science that might say, 'You can't farm salmon in Macquarie Harbour anymore because this species will go extinct'? How can she do that when you've just committed $28 million? Honestly, it is appalling. To see everyone laughing about it in here makes my blood boil. We are talking about the extinction of a species. How many jobs is the extinction of a species worth to you senators? How much money is it worth? I don't have an answer to that question, and it is turning out to be the great moral question of our time. But according to the Labor Party it's $28 million and the seat of Braddon—seriously! I know there are good people in the Labor Party that care about nature and the environment, and it's possible there are some in the chamber right now. You really need to look at this and scrutinise this expenditure by the Prime Minister a few weeks ago. We certainly will be. It is next level.</para>
<para>Senator Duniam, if you want to get a Senate inquiry up into this decision, come and talk to us. Keep your terms of reference neutral, let's go down to Tasmania, let's spend time with the salmon industry, let's spend time with the environment groups, let's go to Macquarie Harbour, let's look at this properly and let's do our job as a Senate and look at this filthy $28 million election commitment by the Albanese government to prop up foreign owned multinationals that don't pay any tax. How on earth can the Liberal Party support a government giving money to these foreign owned multinationals that are pushing a species to the brink of extinction, that are undermining the scientists and the science that's already been put out and that are spending their money—no doubt donating to political parties. Who knows where it ends? I would love to scrutinise that and do my job as a senator with the full powers of the Senate. I ask you, Senator Duniam—through you, Acting Deputy President O'Neill—bring back a new terms of reference and keep it neutral.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're kind of out of time!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take that interjection. We've still got next year. I hope we asked you to do this yesterday, but I would dearly love to have an inquiry into this. To finish off, there is something fishy going on here and it stinks.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>COLBECK () (): What stinks is the rubbish we just heard and the misrepresentation of the industry by the Greens political party. The suggestion this isn't a political issue in Tasmania when it's the Greens that are driving it as a political issue—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are we driving the extinction, are we?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>is a demonstration of how shallow this whole argument is. When you've got a representative from the anti-salmon sector who is prepared to turn up—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Stand up to the extinction of a species!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Colbeck, please resume your seat. Senator Whish-Wilson, given the tumult in the chamber today, you would be well advised to stick within the standing orders and cease interjecting.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>When you've got a representative from the salmon industry who is prepared to turn up to a commemoration for the kids who lost their lives at Hillcrest and put an anti-salmon banner behind the Premier, you show how low these anti-salmon campaigners are prepared to go. It is an absolute disgrace.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Colbeck, I direct you to make your remarks through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm directing my remarks to the chamber. It shows how low these anti-salmon campaigners are prepared to go in their campaigns. It was a deliberate act, a disgraceful act, yet this individual continues to head up the anti-salmon campaign from the Greens in Tasmania and lead the campaign. Someone with any real genuine nature would resign from that position. But this is what we deal with.</para>
<para>I find the suggestion that people in this chamber would love to have an inquiry into this particular matter equally shallow. A few weeks ago, I introduced into this parliament a piece of legislation that would deal with the circumstances that brought about the current events we're dealing with in Tasmania in respect of the way the EPBC Act operates. The bill was referred to an inquiry. And what did Labor and the Greens do? Labor and the Greens teamed up to decide there would not be any public hearings on that piece of legislation, and then Labor and the Greens again teamed up to ensure that that inquiry would not occur before this sitting fortnight so the legislation could not be debated during this sitting fortnight.</para>
<para>When we talk about who really cares about industry and how the EPBC Act operates, let's look at what people have actually done rather than what they have said. At every attempt to have a genuine conversation about this, Labor and the Greens have teamed up to say no. It's not unusual; it's what happens on a regular basis. Let's take the opportunity to look at the circumstances that brought these events about—the uncertainty that communities in my home state are feeling, an uncertainty that has not been resolved by this government despite the opportunities to do so—and see what people are really doing. Their actions show that. The $28 million that was dropped by the Prime Minister a couple of weeks ago was designed to do one thing: shore up his job and try and get jobs for a couple of Labor mates in Tasmania. That's what the $28 million was designed to do. But, as the mayor of West Coast said, it doesn't give salmon workers in his community in Strahan what they really want, and that is certainty.</para>
<para>Let's go right back to the beginning on this matter. Three environmental groups, one of them the Environmental Defenders Office—who, as we've heard today, can't be taken seriously with respect to their representations—wrote to the Minister for the Environment and Water seeking a reconsideration of a decision made by a Labor minister over a decade ago. Rather than saying, 'No, we're not going to reconsider that decision; everybody move on,' the environment minister, to protect her seat in Sydney and Labor seats in Melbourne, Brisbane and other places where they're under challenge from the Greens, decided to pander to organisations like the Environmental Defenders Office, who a court judgement has found have no credibility in the evidence that they provide. They pander to those organisations and create this uncertainty for the industry.</para>
<para>All that the salmon workers in Tasmania want is certainty in relation to whether their industry will have a long-term future. That's all they're asking for. The $28 million is fine, and it buys three years of oxygenation of Macquarie Harbour over and above what's already being done through the trial program, but it does not provide certainty to this industry. At every attempt to gain an examination of this matter, what has happened? Labor and the Greens have teamed up to say no, and here we are again today with exactly the same circumstance. It's all very well to throw on a fluorescent coat saying, 'I'm a salmon champion,' but, if you can't deliver the one thing that the salmon industry wants, call yourself what you like.</para>
<para>All of the things that we're talking about here today have happened during the term of this government and this parliament. It doesn't matter whether you're sitting in the upper house or the lower house; if the environment minister won't take any notice of you in the upper house, why would they take any notice of you if you're sitting in the lower house? It's the same people but a different chamber. Why are we expecting to get a different result? They'll spend $28 million of taxpayers' money but, any time there's an opportunity for a proper investigation of it by this chamber, they say no.</para>
<para>I say to the workers in the salmon industry: have a close look. I know they do. I was down in Strahan a couple of weeks ago talking to them about the skate, and they do care about the skate. They want Macquarie Harbour to be a good environment for their industry to work in, and they know that, with the good practices they observe, it can be. Despite over 100 years of mining, inflows and other impacts that are occurring in the harbour, they know they've got good environmental practices. They know they can have a sustainable industry, but they won't be given this certainty and they won't be given the opportunity to have a say to this parliament because Labor and the Greens keep on saying 'no'.</para>
<para>We will continue to persist with this matter, and it will be a matter that, frankly, the Tasmanian people will make a judgement on. Why do we know that? Because they tell us so, and it's actually quite reasonable that they do. It's their jobs that are at risk. It's their jobs that have been put at risk by the environment minister, who made the decision to review something that a Labor environment minister decided over a decade ago. They did not need to make that decision in the first place. They could have said 'no', but they didn't. We'll get all sorts of arguments from the other side of the chamber about what the process needed to be, but the reality is that the minister for the environment could have said 'no' to the application to review these decisions and should have. We all could have moved on.</para>
<para>The industry itself has stumped up significant funds to support the maugean skate. Nobody wants to see that particular species go into extinction, despite the rhetoric we hear from some people. What the industry does know is that you need clean water to have high-quality and healthy fish. They want and they need a clean and healthy environment. That's a really important part of what they do and what they need to ensure an ongoing industry. Let's forget the rhetoric. Let's forget the dog whistling that we hear from some people in this debate about the foreign companies and international business, who play an important role in our economy; it's all designed to try and denigrate the businesses that are involved. We know the Greens just don't like industrial practices or businesses. We know they just oppose all those sorts of things: 'Big is bad.' We know that's the case. But I would have thought more of the Labor government.</para>
<para>What this motion seeks is the opportunity for the industry to have its say to this place. The tragedy is that on a number of occasions this place has been given the opportunity to do just that. But what has happened on each of those occasions? Labor and the Greens have teamed up to say 'no'. The Labor Party say they support the industry. We know the Greens don't; we get that. But what confounds people in my community is why the Labor Party is saying 'no'. My private member's bill is not designed to be a wedge document or anything of that nature. It's a simple piece of legislation to put in place a framework to ensure circumstances like this don't happen again. There can be reviews of the EPBC Act and decisions under it, but there's a process to do that that involves the states and territories. It's a simple piece of legislation. But what do the Labor Party and the Greens do? They punt it down the road. They don't want it debated in this place. The salmon industry are watching it all really closely because they also have other environmental approvals. They're concerned that the same culprits who had a crack at them the first time will come after them again. They want to have some assurance, as do miners and other players, to be frank, that an environmental approval given by a government has some level of surety.</para>
<para>I would have thought that that was a reasonable thing for them to have. I would have thought that that would be something they could have. But that's not what the Labor Party and the Greens want. They don't want public hearings into that piece of legislation. They don't want it debated in this place and they've bumped it off down the road. It'll be interesting to see what their view on it is because that will be another indicator to the people of Tasmania and the salmon industry of what they think about that industry and the decision-making process that they might go through.</para>
<para>Labor can spend as much taxpayers' money as they like, but my community saw through that in a heartbeat. The community on the West Coast saw through that in a heartbeat. They said, 'The money is great, but what we want is certainty for our industry, our jobs, our community and our workforce.' That's what they would like to see. And Labor has given them one thing: another year of uncertainty. Last Christmas we had this conversation, and all industry wanted for Christmas was certainty. They want the same thing this year: certain for their industry. But guess what? We're going to be having this conversation again next year and waiting to find out whether or not certainty will be provided. We think it should be. We think that the industry should be given a chance to have their say. That's why this motion is on the table before us today. That's why we believe it should be supported. That's why we're prepared to stand up and debate the matter and put some facts on the table, rather than the conspiracy theories about the industry that we hear from the Greens in particular.</para>
<para>We genuinely want this industry to have a strong future. It's a significant industry for our state. It's worth over a billion dollars a year. It employs a lot of people and produces a high-quality product. We think it's fair that they not only have certainty but also have the opportunity to have their say to this parliament and express their views. That's why this motion should be supported.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If anything were to endanger the jobs and job security of workers and the investments in the Tasmanian salmon industry, it would be parliamentary stunts like the one Senators Duniam and Colbeck and the Liberal Party are engaging in. There are processes here. There are processes here that industry relies upon and that, indeed, the interests of the environment rely upon. Stunts in the parliament undermine that process, and that is one of the reasons that the Labor Party, the government, will be opposing this proposition in this place—not because our commitment to the salmon industry and the environment is anything but unequivocal.</para>
<para>I want to try and attempt in this place to open up the minds of senators in the opposition to a set of concepts that Tasmanians reflexively understand. Tasmanians deserve an industry and good jobs in the salmon industry, and they deserve a clean marine environment at the same time. Both of those things are the objective of the Albanese government and indeed, from what I understand of it, of the salmon industry itself. It is the crudest political trick—it's played by every sort of backwards political character—to try and pit industry and jobs against the environment. Whose interests does that sort of crass, bottom-feeding—I don't know where the maugean skate feeds; I don't know whether it's a bottom feeder—political approach suit? It suits the interests of the Liberal Party, and it suits the interests of the Greens political party. But it's in no way in the interests of salmon workers or the environment.</para>
<para>Motions in this place achieve precisely zero. Indeed, if debates and committee hearings are conducted in the way that Senator Duniam, Mr Dutton and all these other Liberal Party characters, silvertails, want to conduct them, they undermine the industry. If you were serious about the interests of the salmon industry in Tasmania and the interests of the environment, you would back Senator Anne Urquhart for Braddon. You would back Senator Anne Urquhart for Braddon.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I like her, but that's a stretch.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's what you would do. I understand the Liberals have got their political interests and the Greens political party has got its political interests—a sort of meme-led maugean-skate recovery strategy; a social media led environmental strategy—but, actually, if you really care about the people who work in this industry and a clean marine environment, you would back what the government is doing here. I offer this evidence for that proposition. First of all are the character, the background and the history of Senator Urquhart herself, Anne Urquhart, who began working at Edgell, or Birds Eye or whatever they were called then, in 1980 and has been backing Tasmanians workers her whole life, all the way through.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Duniam</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Are you speaking in slow motion?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No, that was McGrath earlier!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ayres, can you just take your seat for a moment?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Certainly.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is like so many issues in this parliament—worthy of debate, but every senator deserves respect. Perhaps fewer 'you' statements, Senator Ayres, might take the temperature down. I am happy for you to prosecute in the colourful way that you're doing, but I will ask senators on this side to resist, and I do want to acknowledge and thank Senator Whish-Wilson for retaining composure as was requested. I'll give the call to you, Senator Ayres.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think, to be fair to Senator Whish-Wilson, he stopped paying attention to me a few minutes ago—I think, in truth. I'm really appealing over here, because I know I've lost Senator Whish-Wilson down there, and that's okay. But you just have to look at the character of the people who are running this argument for the government. Tasmanians can count on Anne Urquhart because she has got a history of backing workers and backing industry. It's a government that, just some weeks ago—it's not a small commitment that the government, the Albanese government, has made here in Northern Tasmania—made a $28 million commitment to the future of the industry. It sits against a backdrop of the government not wandering around with banners or slogans but working carefully and consistently with the environment movement, with workers, with their unions, with the firms, foreign owned or not—it makes no difference to this government—and with the industry, to secure the right outcome.</para>
<para>We support a decent aquaculture industry, including the salmon industry, and we know that they are striving to do that, to operate responsibly. The fishing industry more broadly, commercial fishers, the lobster industry and the aquaculture industry are fundamental to Tasmania's economy, to good jobs and to those communities big and small across Northern Tasmania. We say 'future made in Australia'. We also say 'salmon grown in Tasmania'. We say to Australians, 'Buy Tasmanian salmon. Buy it in the supermarket in the lead-up to Christmas. Use Tasmanian smoked salmon. Back that industry, because the Albanese government will back it too.' Tasmanian smoked salmon is some of the finest smoked salmon. You can buy the offshore variety if you want, but I say to you as the Assistant Minister for a Future Made in Australia, 'Back in salmon grown in Tasmania. Buy Australian smoked salmon. Buy it from Tasmania. Make sure it's on the Christmas table. It's a high-quality product.'</para>
<para>All of us need to work together to deliver that outcome. The salmon industry itself recognises this, and it's been actively engaged in work to understand and minimise the environmental impacts of aquaculture, with the government. This is the way that you do things—not by demonising an industry, as the Greens political party would.</para>
<para>I've heard Senator Whish-Wilson. I understand his passion for this issue. But you don't achieve outcomes for the environment or for workers by pitting them against each other, and that is what Senator Whish-Wilson, as well intentioned as he is, has done. He's pitted the industry against the environment. He's pitted the interests of working-class Tasmanians—Tasmanians who want good jobs—against the environment. The truth is that Tasmanians deserve both.</para>
<para>The Prime Minister was in Tasmania recently, and I heard the smear about this. I say this: we are serious. There was a $28 million commitment from this government in new measures to boost water quality and to improve the marine environment in Macquarie Harbour. That's practical support for jobs—not words, not social media posts, not vitriol, not hostility—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's corporate welfare!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, you call it corporate welfare, Senator Whish-Wilson. It is a serious commitment—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ayres, can I remind you not to direct your comments to other senators but to the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm trying not to respond to the interjections—so that Tasmanians get practical support for jobs, practical support for industry and practical support for the marine environment so Tasmanians continue to enjoy pristine waters. It is in the interests of the long-term fishing industry to have clean waters and a clean environment. Those measures will build on the existing environmental and species conservation interventions in Macquarie Harbour by both government and industry.</para>
<para>Tasmanians deserve good jobs, and they deserve a good environment. They won't get either with the Liberal and National parties' political stunts and posturing. No doubt what they'll get are billboards—advertising money that tells workers that they should be afraid—but they'll get zero result from political parties that have never backed workers and industry in any serious way and have pushed Australian manufacturing offshore. Nor will they get a local champion for the fishing industry and for the environment that delivers to Tasmanians what they deserve. Of that funding, $21 million will be committed to improving and scaling up oxygenation work in Macquarie Harbour.</para>
<para>This is a stunt. We know it's a stunt because the environment laws that the Liberal and National parties complain about that now require Minister Plibersek to make a decision, in her capacity as minister for the environment, on salmon farming in Macquarie Harbour are not a creation of the Labor Party in government. They're not a creation of the Greens political party either. They are a creation of—</para>
<para>Debate interrupted.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>5454</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Make Amazon Pay Campaign</title>
          <page.no>5454</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to add my voice to the SDA's Make Amazon Pay campaign. This week the SDA, the TWU and other unions across not only Australia but the world are calling for an end to the poor working conditions and low wages for Amazon workers. People need to know that Amazon are all about profits and never about their workforce. They put their profits before the people who work for them.</para>
<para>Amazon is staunchly anti union and seeks to deny workers a collective voice wherever it can. Amazon has faced more than 250 US labour law complaints alleging unfair labour practices across its company. Union members in the US and the UK both said Amazon flooded their workplaces with new employees in an attempt to defeat attempts at unionisation, as well as engaging in other widespread union-busting activities.</para>
<para>Furthermore, Amazon continues to dodge tax wherever possible. In fact, Amazon has the worst tax conduct amongst the tech giants. Cash tax amounted to just 11.3 per cent of their profit over the decade to 2019. In the decade 2011 to 2020, Amazon paid just $5.9 billion in income tax, while Apple paid $100.6 billion and Microsoft paid $55.3 billion.</para>
<para>As Black Friday sales commence this Friday, not just in America but here in Australia and in many other countries, Amazon workers will face undeniable pressure and stress to fulfil orders around the world, placing great strain on individuals and their families. The race to the bottom on wages and secure jobs is not just something those opposite allowed to happen for almost 10 years. It is a global problem—a problem that needs to be addressed and that is made worse by companies like Amazon.</para>
<para>Amazon is a world champion for these poor practices. Thousands of Amazon drivers aren't even getting paid the minimum wage. They have no rights and are pressured into driving dangerous vehicles which are overloaded, to avoid being sacked on the job. This is deplorable, and Amazon must be called out for not caring for their workforce. This week is a reminder that Amazon workers—who kept filling and delivering orders throughout the pandemic—just like all road transport workers, deserve respect and have the right to a safe workplace right around the world, as does every working person. Working rights are human rights, so I implore you to join this campaign.</para>
<para>Whilst profits continue to soar at Amazon and the net worth of Amazon's chairman, Jeff Bezos, hits $219 billion, Amazon really should be looking at their record on the lack of support for their workers. There are allegations, as I said, of all sorts of things happening within their workplaces, like unfair work practices and the exploitation of their employees. So the next time you think about shopping on Amazon, think about what the people that are in their warehouses and doing the deliveries are being put through and how little they're being paid.</para>
<para>I stand with the SDA in fighting for the rights of working people and fighting for equality, whether it's here in Australia or globally.</para>
<para>As you do your Christmas shopping, think about our retail workers. They will be under the pump because too many of us leave our Christmas shopping till the very last moment. Treat those workers with respect. Reflect on how you treated them during the pandemic. Instead of being grumpy, why not wish them a merry Christmas and thank them for what they do, because no-one deserves a serve.</para>
<para>Our country's workers deserve fair pay and conditions and secure employment. The Albanese government have been fighting for workers. We have closed unfair loopholes at work and we've increased the minimum wage, after 10 terrible years under the former government. Respect those people who serve us and wish everyone a merry Christmas. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Valedictory</title>
          <page.no>5455</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise as leader of the National Party in the Senate to wish everybody a very, very merry Christmas. We are very proud, in my party, to represent the nine million Australians who don't live in capital cities, who love the great outdoors, love their families and love our nation. We love this time of year when we get to gather with family and friends, peacefully, joyfully and hopefully—hopefully!—to appreciate what is good and great about our nation.</para>
<para>Let's face it, Australians have been doing it incredibly tough, and it's in no small part because of the Anthony Albanese Labor government's attack on our standard of living. Their poor decision-making, their inexperience in office and the fact that they've been on a spendathon have made our Reserve Bank governor's job much harder, and so we've had high inflation for longer because of this government's decisions. I know Christmas is going to be incredibly tough for so many Australian families, but I know we're also resilient and creative. So I hope that each and every one of you finds a way to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas, which is holding those you love closer, celebrating the freedoms you have, and heading out to the bush or the beach en masse, getting back in love with nature and celebrating all that is good and great about our country.</para>
<para>I want to thank the volunteers across our wide brown land, who, while many of us are celebrating with family and friends, will be keeping us safe. Whether it's the surf lifesavers on our beaches, whether it is our country fire authorities or whether it's our SES—all of that volunteer network who put their community's safety before their own safety—I want to say thank you. I'm praying that this won't be a bushfire season, but, if it is, know that we are standing with you and thanking you for having our back.</para>
<para>In terms of the National Party's ability to stand up here in Canberra, far away from where we live, for the people we've been sent here to represent in the parliament, we've been able to deliver so many things. We were the first to come out and support a 'no' vote against Labor's divisive voice. Four hundred and fifty million dollars was wasted on this vanity project of Prime Minister Anthony Albanese, and it turned out that over 60 per cent of the Australian people agreed with us. Of course we're committed to reconciliation with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Of course we want to see better outcomes for the most marginalised in our community. But dividing this country along lines of race via our Constitution was not something the Australian people or the National Party wanted to happen.</para>
<para>Similarly, when it came to raising the issues with the reckless rollout of renewables, carpeting our prime agricultural land and our regional communities with solar panels, wind towers, batteries and thousands of kilometres of new transmission lines, we stood up and said, 'No, there's got to be a better way to get to net zero by 2050.' That's why the National Party has backed in nuclear power generation.</para>
<para>We've also been able to secure divestiture powers when it comes to the supermarkets. For too long, Coles and Woolworths have been slugging both ends of the supply chain. Customers are feeling it at the check-out, and primary producers are feeling it when they're trying to sell their prime agricultural produce to the supermarkets. These are some of the achievements for the little party that's been in this parliament for over 120 years—a great privilege.</para>
<para>On behalf of the Nats, we are looking forward to a merry Christmas; we wish you and your families the same. We look forward to an election in 2025, where the Australian people get to throw this bad government out and elect Peter Dutton and David Littleproud. Merry Christmas.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>ASC Pty Ltd: Pay Parity</title>
          <page.no>5455</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to congratulate the South Australian submarine workers at the ASC and their representatives at the Australian Manufacturing Workers Union. This success that they've seen is the culmination of a very, very long battle to see pay parity between the South Australian workers and the Western Australian workers. We've seen that come to fruition. South Australian workers will now see an average increase of 18.5 per cent; that is for the trades and the operator support workers at the maintenance and sustainment facility. It is a great outcome. We in the Albanese government believe that if you're doing the same job you should receive the same pay; we see that as a fundamental tenet of fairness. It is really great to see that outcome.</para>
<para>I've spent time with the AMWU while they've been working through this campaign. I've met with workers from the facility and heard their stories. In some instances they were the ones shipped over to WA to train those other workers who were getting paid more than them because that was allowed in our system in this country under the coalition government. Under us, that's not the case. We're delighted to see same job, same pay come to fruition and to start to see this fairness come across our industrial relations system. Instead of seeing what we have seen for 10 years, which is wage stagnation, we're starting to see some real good green shoots across our economy. We've prioritised closing those labour loopholes and ensuring better working conditions for Australian workers.</para>
<para>As part of our historic 'closing loopholes' legislation, labour hire workers can now apply to receive the full rate of pay as comparable to the direct employees they work alongside, shoulder to shoulder, every day, undertaking the same jobs—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Grogan, your time has expired. Was there a mistake? Set the clock for two minutes. My apologies.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GROGAN</name>
    <name.id>296331</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's okay! These laws came into being at the start of this month. We've started to see some improvements already. One of the latest examples—and Minister Watt referred to it in question time earlier this week—is Metcash. In South Australia they've got labour hire workers who undertake exactly the same training, go to the same meetings and are on exactly the same rosters, yet were not being paid the same amount—to the tune, for some of those workers, of $15,000 a year. That is no longer the case. Thanks to these laws that close those loopholes, there is now fairness across that site; people who are doing the same work will now get the same pay. That is all about fairness in our workplace, which is what the Albanese Labor government is all about—fair, collaborative workplaces, where we have employers, unions and workers working together for a great outcome, for fewer industrial disputes and for more harmony and fairness in our workplaces. That's what we want to see.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Imperial Engineering Education</title>
          <page.no>5456</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McLACHLAN</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Franz Kafka's critique of bureaucracy reveals its absurdity and inefficiency and how it often leads to a sense of helplessness amongst individuals that are ensnared in administrative processes that seem arbitrary and devoid of justice.</para>
<para>I have a tale for the chamber. It involves the Imperial Engineering Education company. It's a South Australian company and it offers two bachelors of engineering: one majoring in renewable energy and one majoring in advanced manufacturing. You would have thought we need engineers in these two areas to drive the transition of our economy to net zero. The school has invested $3.5 million to meet its regulatory requirements and employ staff, and it found premises and entered into an agreement with a local TAFE. It was authorised to teach 275 students, but, early this year, it was subsequently advised it could educate only 10 students. Educating only 10 students makes the college unviable and makes the investment in this education institution almost redundant.</para>
<para>I don't want this contribution to enter into the debate about student caps. Rather, it's to inform senators as to the human cost of the administrative decisions that have followed the pivot in government policy. In the Kafkaesque tradition, the formula applied does not take into account that the school is a startup. No consideration or weight has been given to the investment in the college or the employees' futures. The state has simply said the magical number is 10.</para>
<para>The classrooms lay empty. To the credit of the school, the staff have been retained, and options are being urgently looked at. I commend management for their commitment to their staff, particularly to their educators. The decision is unfair and arbitrary in nature. The decision is unjust. I ask the government to right this injustice.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Change</title>
          <page.no>5456</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise tonight to speak about the question that I put to Senator Farrell in question time today. It's often a question that has been lost in the conflation of the environment, climate change and the greenhouse gas effect. It's very important that we delineate the differences between these three issues because, while they are all important issues, they need greater context and greater definition.</para>
<para>When it comes to the environment, one of the things I've hated about this whole climate change debate and its conflation with the environment is that if you don't buy into—I want to clarify that I care very much and deeply about the environment. You can do that and not believe in the greenhouse gas effect, and that doesn't say you don't think CO2 absorbs and emits photons; it does. But that doesn't mean you have to buy in to the climate change mantra. This is my problem with climate change.</para>
<para>If I lodged my income tax return with the ATO and put down one line that said my income had changed, the ATO would very quickly reply to me and say: 'That's not enough detail. You need to be more specific about your income.' This is the problem with climate change. We're spending billions and billions of dollars—and I don't want to go down the renewables rabbit hole because I've done it to death in this chamber—on renewables to supposedly lower CO2, and that is then supposedly going to control the temperature. By how much? We don't know. This is the point. No-one is able to specify what the outcome will be if we spend this much money.</para>
<para>If we have to be specific when we lodge our tax return with the tax office, I think it's only fair that governments—and both major parties have hopped onto this climate change mantra—define exactly what it is that we're going to get for the billions and billions of dollars of taxpayers' money. All I'm seeing is our environment being damaged, whether it's through transmission lines, lithium mines or whatever. I get that mining is important, but let's not be hypocritical here. It does impact the environment, whether it's coal mining or lithium mining. We're not getting a clear outcome. We're getting higher energy prices, and there are various reasons for that, but the reduction in the use of baseload energy is partly responsible for that as well.</para>
<para>We need greater definition around that, but that shouldn't be conflated with someone's passion for the environment. That's the thing. We can all agree that we want good things for the environment—better and cleaner waterways and riparian zones. We don't want plastics in the ocean. We want our biodiversity to be protected. We want lots of national parks. We want them to stay clean. We want the feral pests out of them. But we have to address the underlying issue in all of this, which is the greenhouse gas effect itself. I totally refute the idea that the radiation from CO2 is going to change the temperature. I tried to demonstrate that today, and I'll demonstrate it again.</para>
<para>We know that one of the great scientists, Isaac Newton—and this is what I hate about our education system. We're taught that he basically discovered gravity because he saw an apple fall from the tree. No, he actually came up with the law of universal gravitation. That is incredibly important. He determined that the rate at which something accelerates is defined by the mass of the two bodies, the attraction between them, over the square of the distance between them. What's fascinating about this is that he published this book back in 1687, over 300 years ago. About 150 years later in the early 19th century, when they were looking at the orbit of the planets, they knew that they were missing a planet because the planets weren't orbiting in accordance with this law of universal gravitation. They ended up working out where Pluto must have been. This is how they discovered Pluto. It was purely through the theory of that law.</para>
<para>Take that law. That law involves mass. You then take Einstein's 1905 law, which is the mass-energy equivalence, and then the 1915 general theory of relativity, which involves acceleration, which combines all three. We need to understand that it's mass that drives temperature and not radiation.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 19:52</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>