
<hansard noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd" version="2.2">
  <session.header>
    <date>2020-12-09</date>
    <parliament.no>46</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>0</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
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        <p class="HPS-SODJobDate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
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            <a href="Chamber" type="">Wednesday, 9 December 2020</a>
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          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Scott Ryan)</span> took the chair at 09:30, read prayers and made an acknowledgement of country.</span>
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    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
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          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
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          <title>Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
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            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
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    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Trade with China</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a document responding to the order for the production of documents concerning the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement. In tabling this document, I'm explaining the government's assessment, in accordance with Senate's order of 3 December, of China's compliance with the letter and spirit of the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement, known as ChAFTA; the extent and consequences of Australian economic dependence on the Chinese market; and the wider economic, strategic and diplomatic context of Australia's trade relations with China. I'll touch on each of those three points in response.</para>
<para>Firstly, I turn to China's compliance with the letter and spirit of ChAFTA. After 10 years of negotiations, Australia and China signed ChAFTA in June 2015 and, after both ratified it, the agreement entered into force in December 2015. It was the third bilateral FTA Australia concluded with a North Asian trading partner. Since 2015, ChAFTA has delivered six rounds of tariff cuts, which have provided expanded opportunities for Australian businesses and consumers. Australia's goods exports to China were valued at $149.2 billion in 2019, up 97 per cent since ChAFTA's entry into force, and total two-way goods and services trade with China was valued at $251 billion in 2015, up 66 per cent since ChAFTA's entry into force. ChAFTA has been used extensively by businesses, with around 95 per cent of eligible imports from China to Australia benefitting from ChAFTA tariff preferences, helping Australian businesses and consumers. This was up in 2019 from around 85 per cent in 2016.</para>
<para>Preliminary trade data for the calendar year 2019 shows growth compared to 2018 in a number of products where tariffs have been cut under ChAFTA. Some examples: exports of whole and skim milk powders grew by 22 per cent to $256 million, with 10 per cent tariffs progressively reduced; exports of fresh, chilled and frozen beef grew by 106 per cent to $2.67 billion, with tariffs of up to 25 per cent that were previously in place progressively reduced; exports of sheepmeat grew 79 per cent to $1.2 billion, with tariffs that were up to 23 per cent being progressively reduced; exports of frozen fish grew some 53 per cent to $26.5 million, as tariffs that were up to 12 per cent have now been eliminated; exports of fresh lobster and crayfish grew 17 per cent to $711 million, with 15 per cent tariffs that were in place now eliminated; exports of shelled almonds more than doubled to $171 million, with 10 per cent tariffs now eliminated; and exports of cosmetic skincare products grew by 39 per cent to $101 million, with 6.5 per cent tariffs that were in place now eliminated. ChAFTA has also improved access to the Chinese market for Australia's services exports, including education, health, legal and financial services. The latest available data from China, in 2017, indicates that Australian businesses utilising the preference rate for Chinese imports from Australia was over 90 per cent.</para>
<para>However, the Australian government has become increasingly concerned about a series of trade disruptive and restrictive measures implemented by the Chinese government on a wide range of goods imported from China, and that these disruptions have increased significantly in recent months. The Chinese government has publicly stated that these disruptions are due to legitimate trade remedies, biosecurity measures as well as noncompliance with other technical standards. They have included measures implemented through the operation of Chinese regulations on quality, labelling, safety, and pest and disease inspections.</para>
<para>In the view of the Australian government the targeted nature of Chinese government measures on Australian goods raises concerns about China's adherence to the letter and spirit of both its ChAFTA and its WTO obligations. Australia has raised these concerns with Chinese officials on multiple occasions, both in Canberra and in Beijing, and has asked the Chinese government to engage on these matters at officials and ministerial levels. The Chinese government has consistently spoken about its commitment to open trade and the multilateral trading system, as well as to its free trade agreements, including ChAFTA. All WTO members are expected to conduct their trading relationships in a manner consistent with their international obligations.</para>
<para>We have raised our concerns about the Chinese government's measures in the WTO, including most recently at the 25 November 2020 meeting of the WTO committee on trade in goods. We raised at that committee our concerns with respect to barley, wine, meat and dairy establishments, live seafood exports, logs, timber, coal and cotton. Only yesterday the Chinese government, through its customs agency, the General Administration of Customs of the PRC, notified Australian agricultural officials of a further suspension of a meat-processing facility, Meramist in Caboolture. The Australian government has raised its concerns with the Chinese government's antidumping and countervailing duties investigations in the imports of Australian barley, and has expressed our view that the Chinese government's processes, analysis and findings were inconsistent with WTO rules.</para>
<para>ChAFTA includes a structure of regular meetings intended to create an ongoing dialogue between Australia and China and a built-in agenda of reviews which provide avenues to address issues and increase two-way trade opportunities. After a reasonable start in bilateral engagement, in recent years the Chinese government's lack of engagement has prevented the use of these structures. Australia remains committed to building on the gains already achieved under ChAFTA, and we will continue to advocate for its timely and effective implementation, including those consultation mechanisms for the benefit of businesses and consumers in both Australia and China. Our government continues to work closely with our exporters in an effort to retain preferential market access into China, which has delivered such widespread gains to date, and we continue to raise issues of apparent or potential discriminatory actions targeted against Australia. The Australian government is considering all dispute settlement options in order to support our exporters and to ensure they can compete on fair terms.</para>
<para>I turn to the second point of the motion: the extent and consequences of Australian economic dependence on the Chinese market. It is a fact that China is Australia's largest trading partner, accounting for around 29 per cent of our total two-way trade in 2019-20. Over the same period, China accounted for around 35 per cent of Australia's total goods and services exports. Australia's exports to China reflect the complementarity of our economies and meet many of China's needs, including for resources, energy, food, tourism and education services. This trade has helped to lift hundreds of millions of people in China and, indeed, across our region out of poverty. The economic growth of China and the elimination of poverty for many millions of people is something that we warmly welcome and we wish to see continue, and it underlines the mutual benefit that comes from trade. Australian businesses have capitalised on these opportunities and, in doing so, they have made their own choices about markets, reliance and risk.</para>
<para>Australia is not unique in having China as its largest trading partner. At least 60 countries in 2018 counted China as their No. 1 merchandise trading partner. Australia's success in growing markets in China has not only been driven by Australian businesses but also by factors such as the size of China's population, its favourable demographics and its rapid economic development, as well as, of course, our geographical proximity. In turn, China's economic growth, we acknowledge, has been supported by our reliable and high-quality supply of exports, including iron ore, energy and agricultural commodities. The trade disruptions occurring at present are not only detrimental to some Australian businesses but also potentially to Chinese businesses and consumers as well.</para>
<para>As China opened up and its citizens started increasingly to travel and study abroad, it has grown to be Australia's largest inbound visitor market for both students and tourists. In the past five years, visitor numbers have increased by 69 per cent and total spending by 117 per cent. This, again, is a function very much of China's size, its economic development, its demographics and its proximity. It is not unusual for countries across our region to find a circumstance where their largest visitor market is, of course, the largest country in our region.</para>
<para>On investment, many do not realise that China is an important but, compared to others, comparatively small partner for Australia. The stock of total two-way investment was $163 billion in 2019, making China Australia's eighth largest investment partner behind countries such as the United States, the United Kingdom and Japan. The total stock of Australian investment in China in 2019 was, for the third year in a row, greater than Chinese investment in Australia.</para>
<para>The Australian government is committed, of course, to expanding opportunities in other markets. Australian businesses will continue to export to markets where Australian products and services are in demand, and where profits are highest relative to risks. Concluding ongoing FTA negotiations, implementing and upgrading existing FTAs and expanding their membership, and increasing Australia's two-way trade coverage by negotiating new FTAs will underpin trade growth and diversification in a post-COVID environment and will support the creation of Australian jobs. Our government has had considerable success in expanding Australia's FTA network including by expanding FTA coverage of Australia's two-way trade from around 26 per cent in 2013 to around 70 per cent covered today. Apart from ChAFTA, over the last five years our government has concluded and implemented FTAs with Japan, Korea and, most recently, with Indonesia, Hong Kong and Peru, as well as the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, known as the CPTPP, which has opened up additional opportunities for Australian businesses in key markets, including across the Indo-Pacific region where some of the fastest growing economies are concentrated. A groundbreaking agreement on digital trade signed with Singapore on 6 August 2020 sets new global benchmarks for digital trade rules, offers an opportunity and a pathway for Australia to be leading in this space and enhances opportunities for Australian exporters. Progress is being made in trade negotiations with the European Union and the United Kingdom.</para>
<para>Signature of the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership agreement, known as RCEP, in November, means that Australia will become a party to a regional agreement that will provide a single set of rules for trade and investment across 15 regional economies—the largest ever such agreement. Although it is disappointing that India chose not to join RCEP in 2020, the door remains open to India. In the meantime we are exploring opportunities with India to recommence bilateral trade negotiations, particularly following the 4 June virtual summit meeting between Prime Ministers Morrison and Modi, where both countries agreed to elevate the relationship to a Comprehensive Strategic Partnership.</para>
<para>Throughout COVID-19 our government's actions have helped to keep supply chains operating, including through collaboration with trading partners via the WTO, APEC, the OECD and the G20.</para>
<para>I turn now to the last of the points in the Senate order: the wider economic, strategic and diplomatic context of Australia's trade relations with China. Growth and prosperity in the Indo-Pacific region has been underpinned by open trade both with China and with other regional partners. Australia's trading relationship with China has supported Australia's growth over time, as it has China's growth. It has helped through the global financial crisis and contributed to Australia's 28 years of uninterrupted economic growth. By providing some of the key inputs to China's modernisation and more recently to its development of a consumption based economy, Australia has in turn played a crucial part in China's development—as I noted before, a development that has seen China lift more people out of poverty than any country in history.</para>
<para>At the same time, the relationship is taking place in the context of increasing geopolitical competition, including China's growing economic and strategic weight in the global context. We make no secret that this competition is creating new dilemmas for us and for the rest of the global community. Australia has been consistent in our approach to our values, our principles and protecting our national interest. It is not we who have changed. It is in our mutual interest, though, and that of the region, to co-exist peacefully, promoting economic development and open trade to aid recovery from the COVID-19 pandemic. As a supporter and an adherent to rules based trade globally, Australia's continued economic engagement with China will remain important, as will expanding opportunities for Australian exporters to make the choices necessary to access other markets.</para>
<para>Multilateral institutions and organisations are key to sustaining Australia's trade relationship, guided by international rules and norms. Organisations, including APEC, the G20, and in a trade context, most importantly, the World Trade Organization, provide a platform for Australia to manage the challenges that arise from our evolving economic and strategic landscape. As the Prime Minister has said, international institutions play an important role as circuit-breakers to provide the space and frameworks for meaningful and positive interaction to be maintained as a bulwark against any emerging divide. This is not to say that these organisations and institutions are perfect. We must continue to improve their effectiveness, including by encouraging all members to play their part in terms of participation and enhancement as well as honouring the commitments they make through such organisations.</para>
<para>In relation to the WTO, Australia acknowledges the importance of reforming it so it can better serve the needs of its members. This includes resolving the impasse on appointments to the Appellate Body. The WTO's dispute settlement system provides an independent umpire for members to consider and resolve their disputes. That independent umpire must be used in ways that uphold the rules and must be able to be relied upon to deliver and uphold those rules effectively. Our government is currently considering our options regarding a WTO challenge on antidumping and countervailing duties on barley, where we feel this sector, like wine, has been so egregiously impacted.</para>
<para>Australia remains a nation that supports the free flow of trade and goods according to the international rules and norms that not only that we have committed to but that China has committed to as well. It is important that we remain open to working together and to finding a way forward. Our door remains open for ministerial dialogue. We continue to make that clear, including just last week. For all the economic and strategic reasons I have just outlined, Australia remains committed to constructive and workable relations with China. I hope that, fundamentally, this is something that the Chinese government wants too. We, of course, equally remain committed to opening up more avenues and more opportunities as we have done consistently over the last six years for Australian exporters and businesses to access even more markets around the world. I thank the Senate for the opportunity to address these issues this morning. I encourage all senators to read the government statement which I have tabled, and I understand the Senate will now take note of this explanation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the statement.</para></quote>
<para>I thank the minister for making the statement he has provided the Senate, both in the tabled document and in his address this morning. I would like to highlight several parts of the minister's very diplomatic comments on the state of the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement. The first, from the minister's statement, is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The targeted nature of the Chinese Government measures on Australian goods raises concerns about China's adherence to the letter and spirit of its ChAFTA and WTO obligations.</para></quote>
<para>It is a good thing that, after much delay, the minister now acknowledges the clear pattern of China's action in what is a coercive trade campaign. Even if the minister can't quite bring himself to use words like 'coercive' or 'punitive', there is no doubt that this campaign is politically driven with the open aim of punishing Australia for noncompliance with China's geopolitical ambitions. In this regard, it's significant that the minister also revealed that China switched off ChAFTA's consultative and review mechanisms some time ago. ChAFTA includes a structure for regular bilateral meetings and a built-in agenda of reviews to address problems and increase two-way trade opportunities. The minister has now acknowledged:</para>
<quote><para class="block">After a reasonable start in bilateral engagement, in recent years the Chinese government's lack of engagement has prevented use of these structures.</para></quote>
<para>It's worth emphasising this point: in recent years, Beijing has switched off the processes of dialogue and review by which bilateral trade problems could be addressed.</para>
<para>The reality is China has been preparing to move against Australia for some time. It is well known that tension in the Australia-China relationship has been building over the past three years. It basically started with concerns about Chinese espionage prompting the Australian government to ban Huawei—an appropriate step—from the 5G network rollout, and this parliament's enacted new laws against foreign espionage. The Chinese Communist regime expressed dissatisfaction with these measures as they ran counter to Beijing's aim of increasing its influence and interfering within Australia.</para>
<para>Against that background, there was a significant report in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> newspaper in mid-January. In an interview with <inline font-style="italic">The Australian,</inline> a senior Chinese official bluntly signalled that Australia-China relations were heading downhill. Wang Chao, President of the Chinese People's Institute of Foreign Affairs, China's most influential foreign policy think tank, was a member of an official delegation for the sixth annual Australia-China political dialogue. In his interview, he set out several Chinese grievances, especially Australia's ban on Huawei and Australian criticism of China's human rights record, particularly the treatment of Uighurs in the Xinjiang province. Wang expressed the strong view that it was solely the responsibility of Australia to improve bilateral ties. He said Australia had to comply with China's core interests and major concerns. He said that it was up to Australia to do what was required. It was a view of a relationship in which China would call the shots.</para>
<para>What has changed over this year has been the escalation of China's hostile rhetoric and their resort to blatant coercive tactics, but China's political intent has been consistent. The minister could have been more honest today if he had directly acknowledged the politically driven nature of China's actions. China has long held a hierarchical view of international affairs in which Beijing should be the centre of the diplomatic universe. In Beijing's view, smaller, less powerful nations and peoples should pay homage and comply with directions from the centre. This is a world view forged long ago in the days of imperial China but fully held today by leaders of the Chinese Communist Party as their economic power and international influence has grown. Beijing sees our bilateral relationship as a one-way street where they must be in charge. They want to impose the diktat on Australia.</para>
<para>Part of the problem here is that there's been a lot of wishful thinking in Australian policy towards China for a long time. For far too long, our foreign policy elite, including both the coalition and Labor governments, imagined we would happily trade with China and make a lot of money while turning a blind eye to the totalitarian nature of the Chinese Communist regime. Both the coalition and Labor were naive in negotiating a free trade agreement with a regime with no respect for the rule of law. Some of that wishful thinking is still apparent in the minister's statement. The minister refers to Australia using all available dispute mechanisms under ChAFTA and the WTO. We'll get short shrift from China through the bilateral mechanisms and WTO appeals, which will take years to be determined and with which, as the minister mentioned, we have an issue in respect of the appeals jurisdiction. Even the Chinese compliance with any unfavourable ruling is quite uncertain, yet in that context, the minister has reaffirmed the government's commitment to 'building on the gains already achieved under ChAFTA'. Although it was not mentioned in the minister's statement, it was to that end that the government last month rushed to welcome China's expression of interest in joining the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership, CPTPP. That was a foolish move. Our government should not have been so quick to lay out the welcome mat to the Chinese President's latest geopolitical ambition at a time when China is engaged in a coercive trade campaign against us. In their desperation to ease tension, the government conceded a significant position, to Australia's disadvantage.</para>
<para>Behind the minister's carefully chosen words, the realities of our relationship with China are all too clear. China's ministers refuse to interact with their Australian counterparts, and the Chinese embassy in Canberra released a 14-point diktat laying out their demands for Australia to kowtow before there is any improvement in bilateral relations. Beijing no doubt viewed the government's response in relation to the CPTPP as a concession, and they will press for more. They've already turned up the pressure further in relation to our beef exports, and that won't end the matter. It's noteworthy that in a shift from earlier Chinese wariness about the original TPP agreement, Chinese state controlled media are now portraying the CPTPP as a means to further strengthen China's regional trade position, especially to boost China's digital services sector and digital economy, including ending the national security restrictions on Chinese companies such as Huawei. Australia should not engage with, let alone encourage, China's latest initiative until such time as Beijing drops its current coercive trade campaign and engages properly and bilaterally on the basis of mutual respect. Why would you throw away a few good cards in your hand? Prime Minister Scott Morrison is obviously no poker player.</para>
<para>The regrettable but clear reality is that Australia-China relations are likely to get worse before they stabilise. Australia must stand firm in defence of our national interests and values. We have the national resilience, as well as reliable and powerful allies, to assist in resisting China's attempted coercion. Australia must make a major effort to diversify our economic ties and reduce our economic dependence on Beijing. It may well be that the Australia-China relationship will be considerably more distant in the future. Meanwhile, it cannot be said that China's so-called wolf-warrior diplomacy is a very good formula for winning friends and influencing people. China's diplomats aren't political wolves, and most of the time their yapping is directed mainly at their political masters in Beijing. We would do well to ignore most of their feigned outrage and attention-seeking tweets. China has done much damage to its reputation as a trading partner and as a responsible member of the international community. Amid all the tumult, that one thing is very clear.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There needs to be a couple of key observations made at the outset of this debate. First of all, the Australian Greens are the only party in this place who opposed ChAFTA when it was put to—I say when it was 'put' to the place, but it was never fully put to the place, and we shall get to that in a moment. We opposed it then and we oppose it now. Our view on free trade agreements, and particularly on this one, has not changed. We do not support agreements that do not explicitly protect the rights of Australian workers and the integrity of our democracy over corporate interests. A lack of labour market testing means that there are no requirements for jobs to be advertised locally. There are issues around environmental standards. There are issues around human rights.</para>
<para>These are issues which the Greens raise in this place time and time again. Senator Hanson-Young raised them as trade spokesperson before me. Senator Whish-Wilson raised them when he had the portfolio. It comes back to the fundamentally broken nature of our treaty-making system in this country. It is a treaty-making system which facilitates the executive—the Prime Minister, the cabinet and whichever powerful figures within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade exist at the time—colluding with business interests in creating deals that benefit corporate interests globally at the expense of the environment, human rights and labour standards both in Australia and around the world. It is a broken system that is rapidly losing its legitimacy and becoming an exception to the overall norm. There are many countries and jurisdictions in the world which have taken the process of treaty making and put it back where it should be—that is, with the parliament to scrutinise. It is absolutely unacceptable that all we get to do here in these legislatures is basically give treaties the tick and flick—or not even the tick and flick, really, but the shadow of the tick and flick. It gives no opportunity for the community, the social sector, the union movement and environmental campaigners to properly scrutinise the impact of these treaties.</para>
<para>It also has to be said, in addition to all of this, that the presence of investor-state dispute mechanisms within these free trade agreements has consistently been raised by the community and the relevant stakeholders as completely unacceptable. These are the mechanisms that allow corporate interests to sue governments, through quasi-judicial mechanisms where precedent doesn't exist, for taking action in the public interest. This is absolutely unacceptable to the Australian people and an issue which we will continue to raise in this place.</para>
<para>It is very important, I think, to recognise the context in which we have this conversation here today. There is absolutely no doubt as to the reality that the diplomatic relationship between Australia and the government of China is at a particularly low ebb, and there is no doubt that there exists a great deal of tension between our government and the government of China. However, the Greens would contend that in the analysis offered by the major parties and by others contributing to the debate today there is a fundamental misanalysis of the cause, which leads us to a space where we cannot effectively articulate the solution. Here I want to pay tribute to Janet Rice, our foreign affairs spokesperson, who is doing some fantastic work in this space.</para>
<para>It is so important to recognise that we have come to this moment, where there is such a profound breakdown in the relationship between the Australian government and the government of China, because of a process which has been in train now for more than a decade—that is, the setting of our security policy on a collision course with our economic policy and priorities in the region. It began with the Pacific pivot, proclaimed in the other place by President Obama on his visit to Australia in November of 2011. We have seen from that point an ever-growing closeness between Australia and the United States in our military relationship. We have seen troops permanently based in and rotated through Darwin, we have seen treaties signed with Singapore enabling the expansion of their military presence here, we have seen the beginnings of a defence framework being established with Japan, and we've also seen the opening up of our military installations in a way which is clearly understood to be sending the signal that we would be able to take the presence of such machines as American strategic bombers. All of these actions send a very clear geostrategic message, as they are intended to do: that Australia intends to maintain its status as America's largest aircraft carrier in the Indo-Pacific.</para>
<para>This is a position which is completely at odds with the stated diplomatic desires to develop greater trading relationships and economic partnerships for and with China. We have been willing participants in a strategy of military and economic containment in relation to China, as articulated through the TPP processes and as articulated and made material, in the security sense, through these various shifts in policy in relation to the American and other allied presences here in Australia.</para>
<para>At the same time, and subsequently, we have undermined terribly the ability of the Australian government to speak out on human rights issues by perpetrating incredible human rights abuses here at home and in other Pacific island nations. I speak now here clearly of our disgraceful program of detaining refugees and asylum seekers on Manus Island and Nauru. These practices undermine completely any demand made on the part of the Australian government to any of our regional neighbours to step up to any type of human rights standards while we at home perpetrate similar abuses. The Australian Greens have consistently warned that this moral undermining of our position in the region would harm our ability to call on our friends and neighbours in the region to hold and uphold human rights standards. It is also the case that, as we have continued to undermine this position, we have also failed to admonish and call out other state actors, such as Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, in their violation of human rights abuses. This absence of consistency undermines further our ability to call out the horrendous human rights abuses being committed by the government of China in relation to issues such as the treatment of Uighur people.</para>
<para>I sit here as a member of the Australian Greens, the only political party that, for 30 years, has been consistent in its criticism of the human rights record of the government of China. There is no doubt—there can be no question—that abuses committed by that government are unacceptable and in total violation of global human rights standards. It is because of our understanding of the importance of calling out these issues and this treatment of people that we have also been consistent in arguing that we here in Australia be consistent in our criticism of other global perpetrators of human rights abuses and be consistent in relation to our own human rights practices in Australia and under Australian political policies.</para>
<para>It is very clear what must now be done. There must be a de-escalation of this trade war that is developing between our two governments, because it hurts our peoples and it hurts the small businesses that depend on exports to China. There also need to be policy settings put in place that seek to diversify our economic trade pathways in the region so that we are not dependent on any one state actor. But we must first recognise the history of what brought us to this moment. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>7</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>7</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
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            <a href="r6608" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>7</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. Well, here we are again talking about a discriminatory, racist, punitive approach to income support in this country. It has been going on for far too long, and it is time it ended. The Greens have stood in opposition to compulsory income management for the last 13 years, and while I draw breath we will continue to oppose compulsory income management because it causes great harm to communities and individuals.</para>
<para>This bill will make the current cashless debit card trial sites permanent in the areas of Ceduna, East Kimberley and the Goldfields in my home state of Western Australia—that's two sites in WA—and the Hervey Bay-Bundaberg region in Queensland. It will permanently introduce the cashless debit card into the Northern Territory and Cape York. The government has finally come clean with its intentions. It always intended to try and make this card and this process permanent. This was its plan all along—to entrench this racist, discriminatory, paternalistic, ineffective, top-down, blanket approach of compulsory income management. In the middle of a global pandemic and Australia's first recession in 30 years the government has chosen this moment as the right time to make the CDC permanent. It's astounding the government refuses to make any decisions on the base rate of the JobSeeker payment and youth allowance due to the 'changing' economic conditions but is happy to introduce compulsory income management. You can't raise the rate but you can entrench this punitive approach!</para>
<para>I am so deeply disappointed that this bill did not receive the scrutiny it deserved of the Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee, because of the tight time line put on it by the government. We had a single half-day public hearing into this bill, and many organisations and individuals, including First Nations organisations, missed out on their opportunity to voice their opposition. This level of scrutiny is simply unacceptable when you know that this policy will permanently impact, and, I say, harm the lives of tens of thousands of Australians.</para>
<para>I'm also disappointed with the complete lack of proper consultation about making the cashless debit card permanent. About 82 per cent of people who will permanently be transferred onto the cashless debit card in the NT are First Nations people, and they were not properly consulted. The government didn't even bother to ask First Nations communities whether they supported the introduction of the cashless debit card or the continuation of compulsory income management—just like they didn't consult the Northern Territory when they introduced the Northern Territory Intervention. I have said it before and I will say it again: information sessions explaining the policy is not consultation; it is simply explaining the policy and not listening to people's opinions on it.</para>
<para>There is a letter that has, I understand, been circulated to crossbenchers from Aboriginal Peak Organisations Northern Territory. I haven't got time to read out the whole lot, but in the absence of the government doing proper consultation I'll read out bits of it. This is from Aboriginal Peak Organisations Northern Territory to the crossbenchers. They say: 'We acknowledge the extreme pressure you are under in making this decision but want to let you know that you have the backing of APO NT and thousands of constituents we represent living in remote communities across the Northern Territory. The opposition to the CDC from the Northern Territory has been clear and unambiguous since it was first proposed, and members have lived with compulsory income management for more than a decade and remain subject to this enduring legacy of the punitive 2007 federal Intervention. We support income management as a voluntary measure for those experiencing hardship and who value the structure it can provide during difficult times or as a measure for individuals considered to be at high risk and vulnerable by Aboriginal controlled health organisations. Even in the latter situation, the period of income management should be time limited and closely monitored and supported. The clear and positive message from the Northern Territory is for improved education and training delivery and pathways to meaningful employment, not compulsory income management which traps people in a cycle of poverty.' The letter goes on, but I don't have time to read it all out.</para>
<para>The failure to consult directly contradicts and undermines the new National Agreement on Closing the Gap, which has been founded on the principles of shared decision-making and self-determination. The government should be ashamed of itself. The ink is barely dry on that agreement and already they are undermining it. The evidence used to support the recommendations of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee to pass the bill was deeply biased. The majority report cited 50 citations of pro-cashless-debit-card submissions and 96 citations of anti-cashless-debit-card submissions despite the fact that 90 per cent of submissions were against the card. What's worse is that Generation One—The Minderoo Foundation was cited at least as many as 16 times, which was more than all the organisations in the Northern Territory. Despite five years of the cashless debit card trials and 13 years of compulsory income management, there is no evidence to show its effectiveness. In fact, research shows that compulsory income management has produced worse outcomes for First Nations people in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>The academic community has done some very good work reviewing the flawed government evaluations and undertaking independent research in the trial sites. Earlier this year, researchers from Monash University found that the cashless debit card had no substantive effect on gambling or alcohol use. They also found people on the card had a higher proportion of spending on less-healthy foods. Another study from the University of Queensland found that the social, emotional and economic costs of continuing with compulsory income management outweigh the benefits. Unsurprisingly, the government is refusing to release the latest University of Adelaide evaluation. Here we are debating making this card permanent, making compulsory income management permanent, and they won't release a study they've paid around $2 million for and wasted hundreds of hours of participants' time through that review process. They won't even release it so that we have the benefit of looking at it in order to consider these bills. On Tuesday, <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> reported that researchers conducting the evaluation say</para>
<quote><para class="block">… there is "little consensus" the cashless debit card is fulfilling its intended aims of reducing drug and alcohol abuse in—</para></quote>
<para>the Goldfields trial site. It continues:</para>
<quote><para class="block">"only a minority" of those interviewed in the … back the card … in its current form</para></quote>
<para>No wonder the government doesn't want to release it, because then we'd actually see what that evaluation said. It's not backing what they claim, I suspect.</para>
<para>Compulsory income management fails to address the underlying structural issues and social determinants that have an impact on health and financial outcomes. It breaches people's human rights, disempowers them and denies them control over their lives. It is an unacceptable denial of individual autonomy, choice and self-determination. Yet the government continues to obsess over this ineffective policy when we desperately need reforms in our social security system that would make a difference—for example, increasing the JobSeeker payment and making sure that communities have access to quality social services and support services and that they can be accessed on demand.</para>
<para>I would like to acknowledge government MPs like Bridget Archer who have displayed courage in speaking out against this card. Ms Archer knows what it's like to live on income support payments and recognises that the CDC is not the answer. Maybe if more parliamentarians had lived experience of the social security system then they would understand this card is not the solution. They would understand how people feel when their income is managed, how it takes away their autonomy, how it makes them feel anxious, how it makes them feel like they are losing their dignity because somebody else is controlling their money.</para>
<para>I find it deeply problematic that the objectives of the cashless debit card have shifted under this bill. There is a new objective of the policy related to financial literacy to support program participants and voluntary participants with their budgetary strategies. This is unbelievable, given the empirical research which shows the cashless debit card has not only failed to support people with their budgeting strategies but has made budgeting more difficult by preventing people from paying their bills and rent.</para>
<para>We also have to ask whether the cashless debit card could ever be an effective budgeting tool when the biggest challenge facing people is the low rate of the JobSeeker payment. People on income support are some of the best financial managers you can meet, because until the coronavirus supplement came in they had to manage on $40 a day. I tell you what: that takes a lot of financial management. The cashless debit card is an outrageous waste of public funds. We have no information about the cost of making the card permanent, because we're told that's commercial in confidence. The supporters of this bill are essentially giving the government a blank cheque to spend an unknown quantum of money rolling out an ineffective policy. This is irresponsible and reckless conduct from a government that claim they're good financial managers. What a joke.</para>
<para>There are a number of serious technical problems in this bill, of which I'll outline a few. The bill gives the minister the power to quarantine 80 per cent of someone's income support payment on the card. While the bill maintains a 50-50 quarantine ratio for people moving from the BasicsCard in the NT and the Cape onto the card, there is nothing stopping the minister from increasing this ratio to 80-20, as it is in the other trial sites. This is an unnecessary and unchecked power. You've got to question the government's motives on this. The bill also reintroduces an element from previous versions of legislation that enables the minister to revoke an exit or wellbeing exemption. The retrospective application of this could mean exit approvals made prior to the passage of this bill could be revoked, another flawed mechanism in this bill. As we all know, the exit application process is already deeply flawed and not many people have come off the card, given the number of applications. This will make that situation worse.</para>
<para>The bill also removes the ability of the secretary or the AAT to review certain decisions relating to child participation. It's incredible that the government is taking away these rights. This means that an individual will no longer be able to seek a review from the secretary or the AAT when they are first placed on the card and will instead need to apply for an exit or exemption from the scheme. Again, this is appalling. Also, there's no clarity in this bill about whether the government intends to place new income management recipients onto the cashless debit card. This bill lists the cap on the number of people who can be placed onto the card. Although the minister paused new entrants being placed onto the card in March, it's unclear whether this clause will remain in place if this legislation passes. Newly unemployed Australians have the right to know whether they will be placed on the card before the scheme becomes permanent. The government must come clean about this, but, when I asked about it in estimates, the minister could not answer my question.</para>
<para>This bill will be responsible for entrenching a two-tiered banking system that goes against section 12DL of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission Act 2001. Sending a debit card or a credit card to a person who did not ask for one is an offence under this section of the ASIC Act. Today I'm calling on ASIC to take action against the government for sending unsolicited cards to people on income support.</para>
<para>We have had 13 years of this discriminatory policy. It has not worked. The government can't produce the evidence. They produce anecdotal stories all the time. I get emails, Facebook messages and tweets every single day from people who have trouble with the cashless debit card. Rent is a particular problem; they cannot pay their rent. A lady who could not pay her rent using her card had to get Indue to pay it. Indue told her that they had paid it and so she went out and made other purchases only then to find that her rent hadn't been paid, so in fact it made her life more difficult. She was trying to follow good financial management and Indue once again stuffed up because they didn't pay her rent. Now, if she applies to exit the card, they'll say, 'You can't manage your money,' when it was Indue's fault. Repeatedly they will not pay rent. They mess up all the time. This card is a racist, discriminatory, paternalistic approach that costs this country a fortune but, more importantly, takes away people's dignity and causes anxiety and stress. It is not a good measure. It is a poor measure. Compulsory income management is an appalling infliction on our social security system. This needs to end. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak against the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. It's a bill that all senators should be totally against. They should be against it because it's—and it can be summed up in one word—inefficient. This government has failed to do what it should have done in representing Australians in these trial sites. I spoke in the Senate this week about this government's failure to adequately evaluate what was going on in the four trial sites across Australia. This government has failed to bring to the Senate, to Senate estimates and even to Senate inquiries what it is about the cashless debit card that is so good.</para>
<para>All senators in this Senate must uphold the highest standards in the work they do in approving or disapproving legislation. There is no evidence to prove that this legislation before the Senate, which forces people into compulsory quarantining with the cashless welfare card, is a good thing. If anything, the evidence shows the reverse. It shows how discriminated against people feel. It shows how discriminatory the behaviour of others towards them is. It shows that it doesn't empower residents of Australia to rise above poverty and vulnerable circumstances. There is no evidence that shows this card does what the government espouses it does. Have a good think about that for a moment.</para>
<para>We here in the Senate must always research, inquire and ask the deep questions: Is this good policy? Does this help our fellow Australians? Does it enable them to take their place in Australian society as equals? Does it enable them to pay their bills with dignity, without having to be scrambling and scratching on a phone for hours, begging for help to get some dollars out? It's not empowering when they need to pay their bills, their rent or the local supermarket or they need to take their children to events or functions but can't. There is no dignity for families who cannot look after their own simply because they are forced onto a card—all because the government says they should be. The real problem here is that the government has failed to show any evidence to prove otherwise. If anything, it is that the cashless debit card is so discriminatory and so racist, like the BasicsCard we have in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>Let's look at the history of that in the Northern Territory. In 2007, then Prime Minister John Howard intervened in the lives of First Nations people across the Northern Territory, and 70 prescribed communities were immediately forced onto the card under the emergency intervention. The then Prime Minister and the then Indigenous affairs minister said it was based on 'caring for children' and the 'rivers of grog', but we know that only a few months after that decision former minister Alexander Downer publicly said, 'We only intervened in the Northern Territory because we could.' Those of us in the Northern Territory knew then what being disempowered felt like. I was the member for Arnhem and stood in the Northern Territory parliament representing the people of Arnhem Land, and never in my life had I felt so disempowered. Here I was, a politician representing thousands of people in my electorate, and I could not change or stop anything.</para>
<para>I went out to Arnhem Land on 3 August 2007, a couple of months after the Intervention occurred. There were meetings of First Nations people happening at the Garma Festival, at Gulkula. I knew when I went there that I was going to face a barrage of criticism, concern and hurt from First Nations people, and I did. I went out there to face them knowing it wasn't me who'd made the decision of the Commonwealth to come in and impose such draconian laws on people of colour, but they were my constituents and I had to go out there and face them, because no-one from the Commonwealth was coming up. No-one from the Commonwealth parliament was walking there on Gulkula country and saying, 'Oh yeah, this is why we've intervened in your life.' So on 3 August 2007 I walked in on that ceremony ground and I got eaten alive. First Nations people were so hurt, so angry, and they let us know it. They turned to me and my parliamentary colleagues from the Northern Territory parliament and they said: 'You did nothing! You did nothing, and in our lives we're all being treated like we're paedophiles, we can't feed our children, we don't care for our children, we don't work, we're all druggies and alcos. You did nothing!' As we walked away, some of my colleagues said to me, 'But we couldn't do anything.' I said: 'Yeah, we could've. Constitutionally we might not have been able to. We're a self-governing territory; the Commonwealth can intervene on us any time it likes. But we could've protested, we could have marched the streets, we could have had civil disobedience. But we did nothing.'</para>
<para>The hurt was palpable. The anger has never gone away. That sense of deep oppression, of racism, has gone on for 13 years since that Intervention, in the policy of the BasicsCard, and more, across the Northern Territory. Oh yes, I heard all the arguments: 'Oh, but millions of dollars is going into the Northern Territory now, millions of dollars. We've got all these Canberra public servants flying back and forth, assisting with the establishment of safe houses, safe places—even a few extra police stations. There's millions of dollars going in.' And I turned around and said: 'Yeah, but we needed that anyway. Why did you have to intervene on people's lives to give them what they rightly deserved in the first place—to have decent homes; to have safe houses for their families, especially the women; to have more police protection, like any other Australian community?' Why is it that First Nations people always have to feel grateful for receiving something that is a basic right for any other Australian in this country?</para>
<para>Now the government comes to the Senate and says not only does it want to make the four trial sites across Australia for the cashless debit card permanent; it wants to include every single one of those families under the BasicsCard—25,000 extra people. On what grounds? On what basis? There has not even been an evaluation of the BasicsCard in the Northern Territory since 2014—that's six years ago—and even that evaluation proved that the BasicsCard was not working. So I raise it in the Senate here: where is the evaluation for those families who have felt completely undignified for all of this time?</para>
<para>Their children have had to grow up over the last 13 years feeling like oppression is their future, oppression is their life. That doesn't give hope.</para>
<para>I expect better of this Senate. I expected better of the minister and I expected better of the government. At least have a decent, good reason as to why you're doing what you're doing. But you don't, do you? You've been sloppy in the way you've gone about getting any evidence; in fact, worse, you've abrogated responsibility to Australians by not even looking at the $2.5 million worth of evidence that you called for. And you still brought this legislation into the Senate. You passed it in the House! You had a member on your side telling you that this legislation was wrong. I wish she had had the courage of her convictions to cross the floor, because we would not be having this conversation in here if she had done that. I know that Bridget Archer MP is not the only one in the House who has that view. So it's left to senators to show courage—not just some but a hell of a lot of courage. Even if you like the cashless debit card, even if you think purchasing goods from 900,000 outlets across Australia is a wonderful thing, I ask you to consider this: do not reward a government which has been lazy and inefficient and has abrogated its responsibility to this Senate to have the right kind of evidence to bring to the Senate, to respect the Senate so that senators are able to make wise and just decisions on behalf of all Australians. What you have brought in here in this legislation is not that. You have failed.</para>
<para>You have not even spoken to the people of the Northern Territory or given them the opportunity to tell you how they feel about the BasicsCard; you're just expecting them to roll across onto the cashless debit card. There is no decency in that. It is so un-Australian; it really is. We here in the Senate do pride ourselves on trying to examine and investigate everything from every perspective. I urge senators to recognise that, even if they do like this cashless debit card, they cannot make a decision on behalf of thousands and thousands of Australians when no evidence that says the cashless debit card works has come forward in this Senate. At the very least, you should condemn this government for its failure. You should condemn this government because of the position that it's put the Senate and senators into. It is not our place to fix its mess.</para>
<para>I say to the crossbenchers: this legislation is wrong; it is unjust, racist and so un-Australian. Vote no to this legislation and compel the government to do its job—to get off its backside, get out there and actually do its job. Listen to the Australians out there who are crying out for your empathy and recognition of the hardship that they are experiencing. Take the sand out of your ears. And let's hope we can soften your hearts, because all this legislation does is push people further and further into the ground. Please, Senators, vote no to this horrendous legislation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McCarthy. I recognise there are strong feelings on this, but I do just remind senators to address their remarks through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to make a contribution on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. I'd like to associate myself with that incredible speech from Senator McCarthy. If there's a speech that's going to convince other senators to vote no to this bill, that's the speech to listen to and refer back to.</para>
<para>Labor will be opposing this bill. The reasons that underpin our opposition to imposing the cashless debit card on communities without their informed consent or adequate consultation have been extensively canvassed in this place through committee reports and contributions to debates, such as those made by Senator McCarthy. Indeed, senators from across the political spectrum have rightly found fault with the approach engendered in this bill and related bills over recent years. In fact, many of the concerns we've been flagging since the coalition government embarked on its rollout of the cashless debit card have regrettably been realised. Further to that, there is now an exhaustive base of evidence which has affirmed our opposition to measures in this bill.</para>
<para>The income management regime the Morrison government is seeking to impose with this legislation, in many cases on some of the most vulnerable and isolated social security recipients and communities in the country, has a number of irredeemable flaws. Put simply, it doesn't work, despite the government's continued but baseless assertions that it does. Thankfully, there are those in the coalition party room that recognise this—and we've heard comments from the member for Bass this week.</para>
<para>More than a decade has now passed since the Howard government's Intervention in the Northern Territory and its accompanying welfare quarantining measures. There is just no evidence that compulsory broad-based income management works. The evidence suggests quite to the contrary. Not only have the cashless debit card and compulsory income management policies more generally been found wanting in their effectiveness but, as Labor members have been highlighting, there is actually evidence of significant harm. It cannot go unsaid—in fact, it must be at the forefront of our consideration of the bill—that this legislation is racially discriminatory. We know that more than two-thirds of the people who would face increasingly severe restrictions and controls under this bill would be First Nations Australians. In fact, half of all welfare recipients impacted by this legislation would be First Nations people in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>What's abundantly clear with the Morrison government's wholesale and flagrant disregard of the publicly available evidence is that its cashless debit card policy is firmly, if not exclusively, based on ideology. We see that playing out here this week—that this bill is the one that's most important to this government. It's the cashless debit card, on their program this week in the Senate, that is their priority bill. I think that speaks everything about this government. It certainly cannot claim to be supported by the data or the lived experience of Australians who've been subjected to it.</para>
<para>It should be noted, too, that this bill is meaningfully different to others we've had before us. It rushes to make the cashless debit card permanent in the existing trial sites rather than seeking to extend the trial period, as the government had originally sought to do. That key difference betrays another motivation implicit in this bill. The government are determined to proceed with their scarcely concealed plan to roll this card out right across the country, irrespective of the evidence, and, with it, make life harder for millions of social security recipients. Anyone who's in receipt of social security in this country should be worried by this bill. Make no mistake: that's clearly the direction this government is headed, or how else can we account for the Morrison government making the decision to forge ahead with this bill in the way that it has done?</para>
<para>The minister herself admitted at Senate estimates that she had not even read the $2½ million evaluation of the program before deciding to make the cashless debit card permanent. That's an evaluation the government itself commissioned—the very same report senators in this place have not seen, despite being asked to vote on this bill today. Clearly, it is not evidence that's motivating the approach from the Morrison government. If that's not sufficiently telling about the government's true intention, at estimates, we discovered the establishment of the so-called CDC technology working group. That group includes the likes of the ANZ Bank, the Commonwealth Bank of Australia, National Australia Bank and Westpac, as well as Coles, Woolworths, Metcash, EFTPOS and Australia Post. It's not difficult to deduce the scale of the government's ambition of a future CDC rollout with groups of that size involved. Why would they be involved unless there were greater plans afoot?</para>
<para>Regrettably, this is also another case of movement and action in lieu of substance and delivery from the Prime Minister. It's a pattern Australians are growing wearily familiar with. The Prime Minister attempts to chalk up a win, grab a headline, that, on the face of it, might suggest meaningful action, and then quickly move on to the next announcement. If it helps shore up support internally by appealing to the ideological biases of the hard-right wing of his party, all the better to do it.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Gallagher, that's an imputation of an improper motive, which I'll ask you to withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll withdraw, according to your ruling. But what we've learnt and what Australians are quickly discovering is that, once the sugar hit of a headline has dissipated, any close review of those policies exposes that they chronically underdeliver or are even counterproductive, as is the case with this legislation. That's certainly part of Labor's opposition to this bill. It's also that it's an enormous missed opportunity, a classic case of opportunity cost—and that's before factoring in that too many of the people and communities that this bill would impact most heavily were experiencing long-term or intergenerational disadvantage well before the pandemic arrived on our shores. Yet the Morrison government's focus in this final parliamentary week of the year is not on evidence based policy that empowers or supports some of the most vulnerable in our community. Instead it's seeking, with unjustified haste, to push through another ideologically motivated program.</para>
<para>I'd like to turn to an issue that I alluded to earlier, and that's about the bill not being supported by evidence. Analysis from a broad range of specialists, many of whom contributed to the recent Senate inquiry, have provided compelling evidence that, when the cashless debit card and similar schemes have been compulsorily imposed, they have not worked. Professor Dreise, director of the Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research at the ANU, succinctly characterised the evidence supporting both the cashless debit card and the BasicsCard as 'flimsy and largely anecdotal, not rigorous and reliable. The evidence does not stack up'. On the contrary, he asserted that 13 years of compulsory income management practices in the Northern Territory had produced 'a very large amount of evidence' showing that 'it has had almost no positive impact'.</para>
<para>These findings are supported by the University of South Australia's recent independent analysis of the CDC trial in Ceduna, South Australia. With explicit reference to the issue of gambling and substance abuse amongst welfare recipients, which is often proffered by proponents of compulsory schemes as justification for intervention, UniSA's independent analysis determined:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the CDC policy … had no substantive effect on the available measures for the targeted behaviours of gambling or intoxicant abuse.</para></quote>
<para>We've also heard from the pre-eminent experts in addiction that the approach championed through this bill by the government is completely wrongheaded, particularly its focus on compulsion rather than employing proven methods which leverage voluntary involvement and positive reinforcement. The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists stated in their submission that there was not clinical evidence to support the CDC. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… we are concerned at the continued pursuit of this policy against the advice of addiction specialists.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">More than 50 years of psychological research shows that positive reinforcement strategies are more effective than punitive strategies in bringing about behavioural change.</para></quote>
<para>So why is the government proceeding in the face of this evidence? It's especially bewildering when you couple the highly questionable effectiveness of the program with its costs. Dr Luke Greenacre's more recent research with the University of South Australia 'examined the change in targeted behaviours following the introduction of the scheme in a South Australian trial area, finding no statistically significant improvement in any behaviour'. Dr Greenacre's research suggests the CDC offers a marginal return, 'if any' return at all, on government investment. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We found no substantive impact on measures of gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, crime or emergency department presentations.</para></quote>
<para>There you have it from the experts, but this government isn't listening to them.</para>
<para>The Liberal member for Bass, Bridget Archer MP, has spoken out against the government's cashless debit welfare card program, saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There is just not enough evidence … to justify the associated harm that it causes.</para></quote>
<para>In her contribution in the other place, the member for Bass said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I have been a recipient of government assistance at different times in my life and I can understand the distress that so many forced on to this card would feel … The rhetoric that surrounds social security and systems like income management plays in to the very worst of human nature; we're essentially inviting people to look at their fellow Australians as something 'other' or 'less than'.</para></quote>
<para>She said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Whenever you approach a human problem by inciting shame and guilt, you have already lost those that you are seeking to help.</para></quote>
<para>I'd like to associate myself with those thoughtful remarks and reflections, brought out of her personal experience, which mirror my own.</para>
<para>Ms Archer's dissent has also been supported by the Liberal member for Monash, Russell Broadbent, who has registered his concern about the bill, specifically questioning the merit in singling out communities for a cashless debit card. I certainly hope that members of the Senate crossbench—and indeed, any members of the coalition in this place who are listening to these contributions and listening to the evidence—will have the courage of their convictions to join us in opposing this legislation.</para>
<para>Let's be very clear about what's happening here. The Morrison government are seeking, through this bill, to permanently establish the punitive cashless debit card, despite knowing it does not work; despite knowing it unjustly and disproportionately targets First Nations Australians; despite having failed to adequately consult with affected communities; despite having failed to invest in job creation, housing or adequate community services; despite knowing this bill is yet another step in a barely concealed plan to roll out this regime on welfare recipients right across the country; and despite the government's own members having conceded in parliament that all of this is true.</para>
<para>Why is this bill the government's No. 1 priority this week? Why is this the Prime Minister's No. 1 priority—to impose the cashless debit card, which disproportionately targets First Nations Australians? That, seriously, is his No. 1 issue this week. When we have so many people unemployed, so many businesses struggling and so many families trying to make ends meet, shouldn't that be the focus? But, no, it's this one. At the same time, we have the Prime Minister saying, 'We prefer to let Australians make decisions about how they spend their money.' He's been saying that all week, and then he turns around with legislation like this, which takes that right away from those communities where this is going to be imposed permanently. And then it will be rolled out across the country. So he says one thing to one group of people in this country, and then he acts this way towards some of the most vulnerable, isolated and marginal communities in this country—instead of working with them and listening to them. God help us if you actually listened and asked and worked with communities about how to support them and respond to some of the challenges that they may be experiencing in their homes and their communities!</para>
<para>'We've got it right. We won't listen to the experts. We won't listen to the report that we've commissioned. We won't even read it. We'll spend $2½ million of taxpayers' funds on commissioning a report that the minister herself has acknowledged she didn't read before taking the decision to permanently impose this on a number of communities in Australia, with the long-term view of rolling it out across the country.' That is the priority of this government. It's mean, it's nasty and it's playing to base politics. And they won't listen, because this is exactly what they want to do. All the way to the next election, they seek to marginalise, disenfranchise, demean—in the eyes of other Australians—the rights of some of the most vulnerable communities in this country. The Labor Party will not be a part of it. We will call it out, and we will call it out all day. I know many other senators in this place will call it out, too. Like Senator McCarthy said, I urge the crossbench: do not be bullied into voting for this bill. The government has got itself into a problem about timing because they've mismanaged their own program. Don't help them out. They don't deserve it. And the communities that are going to have this imposed on them don't deserve it either.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. This degrading, colonial type bill will introduce the CDC as a permanent program, not a trial, to replace the current BasicsCard for about 25,000 people in the Northern Territory and Cape York regions. There won't be any cap on how many people will have their income support managed by the government, allegedly for their own good. I'm not surprised that the government is trying to rush this through this place, because about 82 per cent of people who will be put back on rations through the CDC are First Nations people, particularly those who are living on country in remote areas.</para>
<para>The sovereign First People of this country are going to be put back on rations in the Northern Territory and Cape York. It's shame. It's 2021 rations. That's what this is. Let's tell the truth: it's putting black people back on rations. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries the government of this country introduced legislation to regulate the lives of our people. These laws were commonly referred to as 'protection acts', because we were told that they were to protect our people. These acts existed and were used until the eighties as a means to forcefully separate our families, create division, disempower our people, try to destroy our cultures and assimilate the oldest culture in the world into settler colonial societies. We were doing just fine before those ships sailed into Eora country to plant their flags on our soil and use our people's country as a prison without consent. We weren't the ones needing assimilation. We were fine, yet these so-called protection acts were used as a way to control the lives of our people. Now, it's back to the future with this bill before us today.</para>
<para>In the second reading speech for this bill the minister said that this new rations program is 'helping welfare recipients with their budgeting strategies and reducing the likelihood that they will remain on welfare and out of the workforce for extended periods'. What a joke! If the minister cared for our people, the government would be bending over backwards to fully fund and resource our Aboriginal community controlled organisations to provide services to our people, because our people know what we need. This government is just blocking our path and our right to self-determination. Self-determination must drive how this government engages with any issue that affects us.</para>
<para>Our people need strong, culturally safe and self-determined supports and services. Services like Aboriginal-controlled financial management, social support, education, child care and legal assistance services. But since our people are not property developers or miners, then this government gives us nothing. Well, that's not true. We get the 21st century equivalent of rations and this new protection act. Our people have not forgotten the protection regime that they were forced into, especially the Northern Territory Aboriginal people. By 1911, 10 years after this country was federated, every state and territory except Lutruwita—Tasmania—had a so-called protection act giving the chief protector of Aborigines extensive power to control our lives. In the Northern Territory in particular, the chief protector of Aborigines was made the legal guardian of all Aboriginal children, displacing the rights of their own parents. Our people have been caring for our young ones and our babies for millennia and, now, the chief protector controlled our children and our babies because he said so. These protection acts included powers to direct our people off their lands to live on reserves and missions.</para>
<para>Our people were enslaved, something that the Prime Minister himself conveniently forgot. He must not have seen the pictures of our senior law men and women in chains and shackles. I'll be happy to provide them to him so he can understand history properly. Our women were abused, assaulted and raped. The police services of this country stole our children from their families and put them to work. The government then turned around to tell us that we were the bad parents. They did all this in the name of protection. What we needed protection from was colonisation. Our people were subject to near total control of movement, of who they could marry and when, and of the jobs that they could do. Our wages were stolen, our savings were taken and our property was seized. Then they put us on rations. They paid us for our labour with clothes and with flour, tea and sugar—foods that we did not have in our diets and that our bodies were not used to, foods that are still killing our people earlier than they should be dying.</para>
<para>People wonder why we are angry. You are lucky that all we want is a fair go. All we want is everything that was denied to our ancestors. How mad they get when we tell the truth, because there is nothing so fragile as white supremacy. I can see people in this chamber bristling at me for even raising white supremacy in this place. Don't forget that one of the first laws this very parliament passed was the Immigration Restriction Act, also known as the beginning of the White Australia policy. Here I stand in this place, along with Senator McCarthy and Senator Dodson, as a proud black person standing up for our people and our rights. We're dismantling the supremacy this country was built on, because we have seen this type of protectionist, colonial interference in our lives before.</para>
<para>This is not the first time that the government has wanted to control the income of our people by regulating access to and payment of social security. Our people were mostly denied any income support, such as child endowment payments, maternity allowance and old age pensions when they were introduced. This parliament even made amendments to legislation that meant that, although our people may have been entitled to income support, this could be paid indirectly to a third party like a mission or a government agency. The Child Endowment Act 1941 provided that the child endowment payment would not be made to Aboriginal natives of Australia who were nomadic or where the child was wholly or mainly dependent on the Commonwealth or a state for support. From 1912, a maternity allowance of five pounds was paid to mothers on the birth of a child. Section 6 of the Maternity Allowance Act 1912 specifically excluded the payment of the maternity allowance to 'women who are Asiatics, or are aboriginal natives of Australia, Papua, or the islands of the Pacific'. The Invalid and Old-age Pensions Act 1908 specifically excluded 'Aboriginal natives of Australia' from receiving the old age or invalid pensions. The Commonwealth scheme for unemployment and sickness benefits came into operation in July 1945. Under that law, 'an Aboriginal native of Australia' was disqualified. Now, here we are, with the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 and the new protection acts being introduced into this place by the chief protector of Aborigines. Don't be fooled when they tell you that this is for our benefit. It's not. Management of income is racist and colonial nonsense all over again. And it's demeaning to us, a proud people.</para>
<para>So many people have shared their stories with me, like Annette Stokes, who was awarded the Order of Australia for her dedicated work for mobs in western Goldfields regarding genetics. Once her contract had finished, she had the right to apply for income support while looking for work and then was placed on a management card. She does not drink or take drugs and is practising culture. A Christian woman who attends church alongside her brother, Pastor Geoffrey Stokes, Annette sings beautiful songs in church, lives an honest life and is a wonderful mother and friend to many but is being placed on a 21st century ration. There is also Grant Gannet, a proud Aboriginal man, who was in tears about how cruel this card is to his people. I also want to speak to the story of a sister, Jmara King, who was on the card in Queensland and tells me that it took this government two months to send it to her. By that time she was so far back in her rent that court proceedings to evict her from her home had already started, so she had to move in with her parents in a crowded home.</para>
<para>This is shameful. We are condemning proud black people to rations and income management and 21st century protection acts. And we are proud; we have been proud for over 80,000 years. I love being black. Our people love being black. We are deadly! That's why they try to control us—control what we buy, when we buy it and where we buy it from. We are the oldest living culture in the world. Maybe that's the reason they are always trying to control us. The government is always big on how staunch we are, how proud we are, and that we are still here. The strength of our matriarchs still runs through this soil. The resilience of our people is stronger than anything you have ever witnessed. This is why we will not be voting for this protectionist bill. We are still here. You didn't wipe us out, even though that was the agenda. And we will continue to resist.</para>
<para>If this government is serious about helping our people, then resource us to work towards treaties. Fund our community controlled organisations. Fund culturally appropriate homes for our people. Stop deciding what type of home we have to live in. Resource our legal services. Give us our land back. Restore the dignity of our law men and women and our cultures. This card does not do that. Our people have not forgotten being forced into missions, having our wages stolen, having our backs broken and our families separated— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I join today the chorus of voices in this parliament opposing the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. We've seen many iterations of this legislation come through this place in various forms. We know that with this legislation today the government is seeking to make the cashless debit card permanent in the trial sites in which it currently operates and to roll it out in the Northern Territory. I share absolutely the anger and frustration of many on this side of the chamber and, around the country, of many participants on the card and many communities.</para>
<para>We know that the CDC has been the subject of any number of inquiries. Those inquiries have consistently found that there is little evidence to show that the program works, but now we find that the government wants to make it permanent in some communities and that it wants to roll it out across the entirety of the Northern Territory also. It's disappointing, when we see the good work that's been done in this parliament to secure the representation of the Northern Territory, to help it maintain two seats in the House of Representatives and thus enfranchise Territorians, that the government ignores the community feedback from the Territory about the cashless debit card. This is no small point. The history of the Northern Territory is that, when it split from South Australia in 1911, it lost its democratic voting rights. I believe that if the Northern Territory had 12 senators of its own or participated in electing the 12 senators to South Australia this legislation wouldn't be here before us today, because the enfranchisement of First Nations people would have had an entirely different visibility and basis to it. Why was the Northern Territory managed by the Commonwealth back in 1911 as a remote territory? Frankly, it was because the thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people—we don't actually know, statistically, how many people lived in the Territory at the time—who lived in the Northern Territory didn't have the right to vote at that time. I reflect on the fact that, had the people of the Northern Territory back in 1911 been white, the Northern Territory would have had representation in the federal parliament at that time. Here again we are paternalistically and patronisingly seeking to say that we in this place know what is best for the people of the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>This punitive micromanagement does absolutely nothing to build the capacity and resilience of people and communities. The focus on making the cashless debit card compulsory in the Northern Territory is implicitly and overtly racist. I draw on the example of the lack of voting rights historically within the Northern Territory as a parallel example of this. If we had proper participation and no paternalism in these policy debates then these policies wouldn't be here before us. Sixty-eight per cent of the people who will go on the card in the Northern Territory are First Nations Australians. The failure of the government to consult with these communities is disappointing in the extreme. But I can see why the government isn't consulting with people in a meaningful way; it's ideologically motivated to implement the cashless debit card, despite the lack of evidence.</para>
<para>When it comes to these debates, we must leave the cultural authority and leadership around finding things that work for community in the hands of those communities. Canberra is too far away and too remote. It's not them who are remote. It's not the Northern Territory that's remote. It's not the communities of the Kimberley that are remote. It is us who are remote from them. Many of those communities have had continuing cultures of many thousands of years. It is us who are remote from them. We've given these communities no real voice on these issues. We have to talk about those issues in those communities in a way in which they can determine their positions and their voices on them.</para>
<para>I note that an evaluation undertaken by the University of Adelaide was not even made available to the Senate committee that inquired into this bill for consideration during its inquiry. The government asked for evidence in terms of evaluations. If it didn't suit your agenda of wanting to support the card, it has been hidden away.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Pratt, I ask you to make your remarks through the chair.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PRATT</name>
    <name.id>I0T</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Mr Acting Deputy President. Labor's opposition is not ideologically driven; it's driven by the evidence that demonstrates that the scheme doesn't work. So I say—through you, Mr Acting Deputy President—that, rather than pursuing ideological policy that's not based on evidence, governments should partner with communities to support the health and economic wellbeing of First Nations Australians. They should make a genuine attempt to partner with communities and listen to First Nations Australians. They should partner with communities to build their economic resilience, and listen to and work with them to deliver on community driven health strategies.</para>
<para>There's a very relevant saying within HIV communities—and we've seen it in the context of COVID as well—if you're going to have proper strategies that work within community. The saying is 'Nothing about us without us'. This could not be more true in the case of communities and First Nations communities. When governments say they don't trust their own communities, we've seen that that's not the kind of management that works. We shouldn't be simply saying that people can't be trusted to use their unemployment support wisely. We shouldn't be saying the government simply knows better.</para>
<para>A national independent study that ran over three years was funded by the Australian Research Council. It made a series of absolutely damning findings. Of the survey participants, 67 per cent reported that they had no trouble at all managing their money before being placed on income management, and 87 per cent reported they did not have a problem with alcohol. If you take your average welfare participant and you take your average senator—there are 76 of us, so if you were to take 76 jobseekers—I can tell you which cohort of people would spend more money on alcohol, and it wouldn't be the participants.</para>
<para>Most cardholders felt income management was forced on them with minimal assistance and support to help them use it to their advantage. People had told researchers that income management not only had failed to alleviate the challenges of their lives—challenges that were largely non-existent in terms of issues like drugs and alcohol anyway—but had caused financial problems that did not previously exist: not having enough cash for essential items; difficulty providing for children and other family members because respondents did not have access to sufficient cash; difficulties participating in the cash economy because of lack of access to cash, meaning you're unable to purchase second-hand goods, for example; and difficulties paying rent and other bills because of glitches with processing payments, particularly via the cashless debit card. I want to highlight, in the context of, for example, remote communities in Western Australia, that there is a range of goods at the local store but, if you want to buy furniture, you have to travel a long way to get it from the nearest town and, more often than not, it will be traded second-hand in a cash economy. So how do you buy furniture for your family in the context of not having access to sufficient cash? What's the point of micromanaging the finances of people who simply don't have enough to live on anyway? I can't help but think about the context of the legislation before us, where the government wants to see the cashless debit card rolled out across the Northern Territory at the same time as reducing the welfare payments of people on it.</para>
<para>Frankly, I'm highly concerned about the astronomical amounts of money that have already been spent on the trial. Between 2015 and 2020 some $33.6 million was spent on the hotline, the management of the card, merchant management, administration, processing support et cetera. That's a lot of money that could have gone into expanding support services and giving people a better deal on their income support payments. The evidence from the Western Australian Council of Social Service said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Attempting to address complex social issues with a blunt instrument like the Cashless Debit Card is simply misguided and fails to meaningfully target the causes of the issues being experienced in the regions the card has been introduced.</para></quote>
<para>They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Instead of a policy like the Cashless Debit Card, the investment and focus for these regions should be on job creation and providing appropriate, culturally-accessible services that support people to maintain a basic standard of living and care for their families, address alcohol and other drug misuse and problem gambling when those problems are present, and maintain affordable and secure housing.</para></quote>
<para>This card does none of that.</para>
<para>In closing I'm going to reflect on the fact that people do have drug and alcohol problems in their lives and, for those who do have those significant problems, there's always a way around them. A Yalata figure told ANU researchers:</para>
<quote><para class="block">They're trying to stop people from drinking. When they made this stuff.</para></quote>
<para>The researchers said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">This person reflected with poignancy on the introduction of alcohol as part of the colonisation process. 'They made the alcohol. And it never stops. You can't stop people from drinking.' … 'We've lost our vision. A card cannot give vision to the community.'</para></quote>
<para>We know that we need to empower communities around the country and we need to empower individuals, but this is not what the card does. Another person in this trial said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I know from my ex-partner: he was went away for rehab. He was missing his family, got out, and went back on heavy drugs. If there was a rehab center here … he could have probably … put his mind to it.</para></quote>
<para>That person is from Ceduna, and the nearest residential drug and alcohol facility is located some 500 kilometres away.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, which I think we call the cashless debit card. This bill would make the cashless debit card a permanent program—not a trial—and it would replace the current BasicsCard for about 25,000 people in the Northern Territory and for those in the Cape York region, where there's no cap on the number of participants. All up, about 82 per cent of people who will be transferred on to the cashless debit card in the Territory are First Nations people, and most of them are living in remote communities.</para>
<para>Income management from its outset was clearly racist, because it was targeted at First Nations communities, and the response of the government was not to revoke this racist policy but to extend it to white communities so that it remained bad policy but now it applied to more cohorts of people. My home state of Queensland was one of those test sites for the extension of the card, and the impacts of that trial on actual human beings, many of whom I've spoken with, as has Senator Siewert, make it clear why the program should not be continued and certainly should not be expanded.</para>
<para>The staggered rollout of the card in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay started in January 2019 and was completed in mid-May of 2019. Queensland's peak social services body, the Council of Social Service, or QCOSS as they're known, conducted surveys in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay at the outset of the trial after it had been running for several months, and, contrary to the government's claim that the trial had support, the initial survey indicated 65 per cent opposition. That grew to 81 per cent during the trial. So the lived experience of being on the card or having family members on the card or working in an organisation whose clients were subjected to it, hardened people's opposition.</para>
<para>People with experience of being on the card reported problems with health or mental health issues. They reported rent problems. Senator Siewert has already gone through some examples where rent was not paid by the administrators of the card, leading to potential eviction by people who through no fault of their own had their rent mismanaged thanks to those running the card. People who were on the card also experienced stigma and discrimination. They experienced cards being declined and cash-only opportunities missed.</para>
<para>Some of the responses are truly heartbreaking. One person said: 'My card's declined at supermarkets and petrol stations. I've been publicly shamed when using my card. Rent's declined. I've missed out on second-hand goods. I can't shop at roadside stalls or markets. My kids have missed out on tuckshop and fundraiser school events.' The next person who corresponded with us and who wanted their story shared said, 'I feel embarrassed to pull my card out to pay at places, so I will often avoid shopping on busy days as the added stress makes my anxiety unmanageable.' A third person said, 'I've personally been called a junkie and a dole bludger at the supermarket.'</para>
<para>Naomi, who is a Queensland single mum who has multiple sclerosis, wrote to me when the news spread that the CDC trial could be expanded to other regions of Queensland. Naomi was terrified by what this card would mean for her and her family. Her youngest son had just finished year 12 and was acting as her carer. He's a talented athlete, and Naomi was only able to afford the amount of nourishing food that he needs to stay fit and healthy by shopping at local farmers' markets, something that I'm sure many of the people in this chamber do regularly. Naomi was terrified that if the CDC rolled out to her region she'd have to forego healthy, affordable, locally grown produce at markets where you pay with cash and instead would be forced to buy overpriced, much older and less fresh supermarket food. She was worried that if her son had to contribute to those costs that he would no longer be able to use the small amount of carer's allowance that he gets to pay for race entry fees. His athletics career would be over. These are the legitimate fears of a Queensland single mum with MS who is petrified about the effect of this card being rolled out across our state.</para>
<para>Kathryn Wilkes lives in Bundaberg in Queensland. She's been a fierce campaigner against the card for years. She's dispelled the mistruths and she's supported her community to speak out against the disaster of this program. I visited Kathryn, as has Senator Siewert and many others, in the Bundaberg and Hervey Bay region, where we heard stories from people who've been forced onto the card. We heard directly about the impact that it's had on their lives. Their experiences were all different, but they shared the view that the card had made their lives worse. It's punitive and it does nothing to actually help people get a job or live with dignity. QCOSS agree. They said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We believe addressing complex health and social issues, such as alcohol, drug and gambling problems, through the welfare system is fundamentally flawed. Evidence indicates that the CDCT is ineffective, expensive, harmful, unsupported, discriminatory and paternalistic.</para></quote>
<para>These experiences in Queensland serve as a warning that the cashless debit card should certainly not be made permanent and it should not be rolled out more broadly.</para>
<para>My colleague Senator Siewert and several of the other speakers have outlined the issues with compulsory income management more broadly and with this bill in particular. Senator Siewert listed the many, many First Nations organisations that oppose this card. Of course, my colleague Senator Thorpe also gave a very powerful speech about the disproportionate impact of this policy approach on First Nations communities. This bill perpetuates a racist one-size-fits-all policy that targets First Nations and vulnerable people. The bill and the rollout in the NT contradict the Closing the Gap commitments.</para>
<para>Changes introduced by this bill will make it even harder for people to get off the card. It allows ongoing monitoring of a person's wellbeing, even after they've managed to get off the card. This bill is not supported by any robust evidence that the card has met any of its objectives. In fact, the ANAO found that there was no evidence that there'd been a reduction in social harm at the trial sites—no evidence. The final evaluation of income management as part of the NT Intervention found that it had met none of its objectives. Of course, we don't know what the University of Adelaide study that cost the taxpayer $2½ million says, because this government is not releasing it into the public domain and, as I understand it from some of the other contributors, the minister herself has admitted she hasn't even read the report. This is just farcical in the extreme.</para>
<para>This card is denying people their dignity and their quality of life. The cashless debit card is a punitive program that punishes people simply because they are on income support. Its impact has been to stigmatise and demean those who need support. In the middle of a pandemic and an economic and jobs crisis, now is when the government decides that it wants to make the cashless debit card permanent. The government uses economic uncertainty as a basis to defer decisions about raising the rate of JobSeeker permanently, but it's happy to try and lock in compulsory income management. This inconsistency will cause a lot of human misery.</para>
<para>The bill ignores the root cause of people's struggle to budget when they're on income support. The root cause is the fact that they're trying to survive on inadequate payment amounts. Surely a better way to reduce hardship, to support budgeting strategies, to return dignity to those on income support and to increase their prospects of gaining employment is to raise JobSeeker and youth allowance above the poverty line once and for all. Instead we see this government spending millions on an evaluation report that it won't release and on the privatised administration of this card. An astronomical amount has been given to a private company to administer people's own money, and to do so very poorly, with multiple examples of stuff-ups that have had real-world consequences for people and their housing security. What a waste of money! The money that they've spent on privatising this card could have been a down payment on a permanent increase in JobSeeker.</para>
<para>As my colleague Senator Siewert has said, it's kind of inconsistent—if you think that people with no money can't manage money, how do you think they would learn to manage money if you were taking away their autonomy to do that? There's a logical inconsistency. But, more importantly, that is such a fallacy. People who don't have enough money know down to the last cent how to manage that money. They have to. Every single day they make choices, choices that no Australian should have to make about whether to provide dinner for their family—for their kids—or buy their kids the latest textbook their public school requires. I don't imagine that anyone on this side of the chamber has ever had to face that sort of decision. And I know it's a cliche to say that they are out of touch, but I'm afraid, in this instance, it is true. They'll go off and have a nice, cosy Christmas holiday where they don't have to worry about where their next meal is coming from and they don't have to have someone else telling them how they can spend their limited money, and they will have absolutely no concept—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have no idea what things were like before they came into this chamber. You cannot make that comment.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will take that interjection from Senator Hanson—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You don't know anyone's past.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>who I believe is speaking next and will no doubt unleash a tirade of stereotypes, abuse and criticism on my fellow Queenslanders, and I would ask that she desist in interjecting and we will attempt to do the same on her vile views when she shares them with the public. I will continue.</para>
<para>The other misnomer that this card is based on is the assumption and the abusive stereotype firstly that it’s the fault of people receiving income support that they can't get a job and secondly that they're druggies or alcoholics. If there are concerns with addiction, why don't you help people with a health led response that actually addresses those addictions that might exist? But no—the approach is just a punitive income management approach that won't actually solve any of those addiction problems, where those problems do exist, and they are by no means universal. Most of the people on this card are single mums. Single mothers, in my view, are the hardest working group of people in this nation, and the reward that they get from this government is an inadequate amount of income support and now a paternalistic taking away of their dignity and their ability to make decisions on how to spend that limited amount of money.</para>
<para>This card punishes people for not having work, when what this government should be doing is creating jobs. I think the latest figure is that there are 13 people for every job available. There are 13 applicants for every single job going. This government washes its hands of job creation. I've heard them say numerous times that they think that's industry's job, but it isn't. You could be investing in positive infrastructure—to create jobs and solve other problems at the same time—like schools, hospitals and renewable energy. You could be creating jobs. Instead, you punish people without jobs, you try to claim it's their own fault, you do nothing to fix the predicament that they're in, and then you try and mandate how they can spend their limited money. It is out of touch in the absolute extreme.</para>
<para>This card is punitive, it's ineffective, it's discriminatory, it's paternalistic and it's racist, and this government won't even release the report that says whether or not it works, when all of the other reports that have been released say that it doesn't. And the minister had the audacity to confess that she hadn't even read the evaluation report that she spent $2½ million of public money on. It is absolutely outrageous. And now, five seconds before Christmas, they want to ram this bill through, in the middle of a pandemic, in the middle of a jobs crisis, when they still haven't said what the final rate of JobSeeker will be and when they've condemned people on JobSeeker to poverty for so many years. It went for 24 years without getting a raise. It was under the poverty line, and, under this government, it would drop back down to beneath the Henderson poverty line. Rather than fix that problem, they're handing out tax cuts to the very rich and to big corporates and they're saying that job creation is not their problem. I cannot even fathom this government anymore. I would like to foreshadow a second reading amendment which stands in the name of Senator Siewert. I believe we may well speak to that. It has been circulated in chamber.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The fact that the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 is going to struggle to be supported is a very sad indictment of who we have become as a nation and, more importantly, what we have become as a Senate. It should be passing with strong support from all sides of the chamber.</para>
<para>The cashless debit card trials have made sure that some of the most disadvantaged people in Australia have meals in their stomachs and that they and their children have clothes on their backs and shoes on their feet. Thanks to the card, there is fuel in their cars and a roof over their heads because their rent and household bills have been paid. The card does this by ensuring that 80 per cent of the social security funds people receive are spent only on the necessities of life. It only applies to welfare recipients of working age and excludes those on age and veterans affairs pensions.</para>
<para>It seems harsh and controlling to some, but if there is ill-disciplined spending that leads to significant health and social problems, the controls are beneficial. Without that control, many cardholders would slip back into a life dominated by alcohol, cigarettes, drugs and gambling, with the well-reported problems that go with those, including addictions. As we know, if you have the basics, you are more likely to participate in society generally— go to school, work well in a job, build a career, have a better life—and transition off welfare to your own income. These are among the outcomes that Australians want from the social welfare system. We don't mind supporting those in need for a time, but we also want positive outcomes. We certainly don't want the taxpayer funded social welfare handouts to be wasted through poor spending choices.</para>
<para>Income management for many welfare recipients in the Northern Territory, Cape York and Doomadgee in the Queensland Gulf has helped to generate the same positive outcomes. The BasicsCard, which is held by those on these schemes in the NT and the Cape, ensures that a predetermined proportion of a participant's welfare funds are spent on the basics of life including health items like medicines and hygiene products; some public transport services; certain bills, like electricity; doctors appointments; and school meals for children, where they are provided. Cardholders can also make purchases at department stores and even use funds to pay off bigger items through services like lay-by, if they choose. The BasicsCard can be used at 15,500 participating outlets around Australia. The cardholder can have 60, 75 or 90 per cent of their regular fortnightly payments managed, as well as 100 per cent of any advances or lump sum payments.</para>
<para>The overall aims of these systems are to support the needy through good financial management and to ensure that kids are safe, fed and educated. This lines up with one of my personal—</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would ask senators not to interject; the senator has the right to be heard in silence, and I would ask that you refrain from making comments out loud. Please continue, Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This lines up with one of my personal platforms in all my dealings with welfare recipients, including those who are Indigenous Australians. The Cape York Welfare Reform aims to address dependence on welfare and support people in the communities of Aurukun, Coen, Hope Vale and Mossman Gorge to resume primary responsibility for the wellbeing of their families and communities. The control mechanisms also mean that the welfare funds cannot be directly spent on alcohol, pornography, tobacco products, gambling, home-brew systems and ingredients, or gift cards that could be swapped with others in exchange for cash, credit or goods. The goal is for the sordid symptoms of such purchases to also then be reduced, like alcohol abuse; domestic violence, including abuse of children; drug purchases and drug use; hunger; and poverty.</para>
<para>The cashless debit card has been trialled in four places around Australia. Firstly, from mid-2016, it was trialled in the Ceduna region of South Australia and in Kununurra and Wyndham, in the East Kimberley. In 2017, an evaluation report from Orima Research found that the cards had considerably positive impacts in the two trial communities: 41 per cent of the participants who drank alcohol reported drinking alcohol less frequently, 37 per cent of participants who were binge drinking reported binge drinking less frequently, 48 per cent reported gambling less and 48 per cent reported using illegal drugs less often.</para>
<para>The evaluation also found many related benefits. For example, 40 per cent of those surveyed said they were better able to look after their children and 45 per cent said they had been better able to save money. Feedback from the communities revealed a decrease in requests for emergency food relief and financial assistance in Ceduna. These are the reports that have come back, and they contain the percentages I have just read out. But, if you listen to others in the Senate, the cards haven't had any impact whatsoever. These reports clearly show that it has. There have been increased purchases of baby items, food, clothing, shoes, toys and other goods for children. Community leaders reported a reduction in crime, violence and harmful behaviours during the trial period.</para>
<para>It was rolled out in the Goldfields region of Western Australia from March 2018 and has been on trial in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay in Queensland, where it has the additional restriction of applying only to those 35 and under. Welfare recipients are given the chance to opt in to this system and many choose to do this because they recognise the benefits of enforcing more focused spending of the money. Those on age and veterans affairs pensions can apply for voluntary inclusion in this scheme.</para>
<para>I have spoken before about humbugging, a term used in Aboriginal communities. It's where a family member insists that they hand over money to them. That's why they are quite happy to be on the card. They can say: 'I can't give you money. I haven't got it.' <inline font-style="italic">(Quorum formed)</inline> Humbugging is in these communities. They know that family members are taking money from them.</para>
<para>I want to turn to something here. We're talking about the cashless debit card. I can't let go what Senator Thorpe said earlier in this chamber. She commented that it's her land. I remember her comment to me yesterday. We were talking about the Indigenous community. They have raised that this is racist legislation. It's not, because it's not just directed at Aboriginals. She said it's her land. No, it's the land of everyone who was born here.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I've a point of order. Sorry, what's your name?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Hanson interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Whatever.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! What's your point of order, Senator Thorpe?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is that I find it offensive that we be called 'them', 'they', 'Aborigines'—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, that's a debating point. Please resume your contribution, Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was saying, they make comments that this is racist. It's not racist at all. It's about doing what is right for the people in our communities Australia-wide. These communities have asked for it. I have spoken to the Indigenous people, the elders and the different ones who want this because it's helping the communities and stopping the abuse that's going on. The Greens in this place are all the time going on about domestic violence in their notices of motion. Wouldn't they want to address this so that there is no alcohol abuse? The drinking that's going on causes the alcohol abuse and domestic violence. They're not interested in that.</para>
<para>Senator Thorpe talks about her land. What about the white part? Where's her white father in all of this, who I should say is a member of the One Nation party?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, I remind you that it is not appropriate to refer to other senators, so I ask you to withdraw those remarks, thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't need to withdraw those remarks, I'm sorry—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, you're not debating with me. I've asked you to withdraw the remarks.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What remarks? Which remarks?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am not repeating the offence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There was no offence.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, are you arguing with the Deputy President of the Senate? I've directed you to withdraw those remarks.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, I need to know which remarks, because I made a few comments there.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, I am not going to repeat what you said.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, the part of 'is her father'—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, please resume your seat. It is my responsibility under the standing orders of the Senate to ensure that debate is within the standing orders. I further remind you of a statement the President made on several occasions in this place about how this is a workplace and how we need to respect one another and to not refer to other senators in a personal way. So I would ask you to withdraw the remarks that you made about Senator Thorpe's family. Thank you. It's not a debating point. I'm directing you to do that, so please do that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Madam Acting Deputy President. To make reference to her father is right.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, I am not the Acting Deputy President; I'm the Deputy President. I've directed you to withdraw the remarks, so please do.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, if it suits you, I withdraw the remarks.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. Now please continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Hanson, please resume your seat. No, please resume your seat. This is a very difficult debate, and I appreciate the sentiments on both sides, but Senator Hanson is entitled to make her contribution and she's entitled to make it in silence, with the consent of other senators. If you don't wish to listen to Senator Hanson's remarks, or any other remarks of senators, you are quite free to leave the chamber. I would ask that Senator Hanson be given the respect of continuing her remarks with the silence and consent of other senators. Please continue, Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much. As I said, the cashless welfare card is of benefit to all Australians and it's going to help those people, and I outlined the reasons here. I don't like the debate in this chamber that it's been directed because it's racist. It's about looking after and caring about Australians and helping them with their spending.</para>
<para>There are problems in these communities. I have been to these Aboriginal communities. I've spoken to the people. I've spoken to the business leaders. I've spoken to the councils. I've listened to the people's concerns. It isn't just plucked out of the air that we should be denying these people the right to spend their welfare payments. When it has an impact on the children, if we really care about the future generation, why aren't we doing something about it? You know that the problems are there, so we've actually got to do something about it.</para>
<para>You talk about their rights and their human rights. Well, you know what? So many people, including former prime ministers in this country, have said the best thing to do is go and get a job. If you get a job, you earn your money and you go and spend it whichever way you want to. I'll tell you the feelings of many taxpayers. One woman said to me, 'I walk out of my house in the morning, and the neighbour next door is sitting on his porch and says, "Bye, love; have a good day."' She goes to work all the day and pays her taxes. She comes home and the neighbour says, 'Hi, love; I hope you had a good day,' and he's sitting there with a beer in his hand. He's had a wonderful day. He hasn't had the responsibility of going to get a job. So this is the attitude of a lot of people on welfare payments. They have no responsibility to the taxpayers, and I'll tell you what: the taxpayers of this nation have had a gutful of getting taxed more and more and having their money go into welfare. Our bill in this nation is nearly $190 billion in welfare payments. Those people on welfare have a responsibility to the taxpayer, and why shouldn't they have to be responsible? A lot of workers out there, including in mine sites, have to have drug testing. You can't have drugs in your system if you're going to attend a lot of workplaces. Why shouldn't these people be accountable to the taxpayer to ensure that they are not spending taxpayers' hard-earned dollars on alcohol, drugs and gambling? What is the problem with that?</para>
<para>What the government's cash card is ensuring is that this money is spent on food, clothing and other essentials that they need. It is ensuring that their rent is paid. That's what this card is about. It's not about a person's rights. When you go onto this card, you basically lose your rights as well. If you go on a welfare system, you've lost your rights. You have a responsibility to the taxpayers of this nation. That's a big problem. We've got third and fourth generations that are on welfare because it becomes a way of life. That's not good enough; that's not what I want for the Australian people. There are real benefits in this. If you vote against this and you don't support this card, from 1 January this is going to fall over. You are going to find that, in these communities, they will go and spend the money on alcohol. You will have an increase in domestic violence and you will have more problems in these communities, and you don't give a damn about that. That's what the big concern is about. You have to understand the impact of not supporting this card.</para>
<para>There is no evidence from the government whatsoever that they intend to roll this out Australia-wide to anyone else, any other areas, other than where it is now before the next election. These communities weren't just plucked out; it wasn't the case that a dart was thrown at a map of Australia and they said, 'We're going to put this cashless debit card there.' These communities actually asked for this trial. You've got people that have signed it. They don't have to be on it, but they've signed up to it. Why? Have you really asked yourself these questions? You've got a few letters from people saying: 'You're denying us our right. We can't spend the money how we want to.' They go to the markets and can't buy fresh food because they don't accept the card there. They have 20 per cent of their money in their pocket. Twenty per cent of the money is in cash. They can spend it how they want to. Yet you're denying that. I don't see any rhyme or reason to why you're actually doing this.</para>
<para>I will not sit here in the Senate and hear other senators claim that it's their land. This is racist; a certain number of people are being picked on. Like I said, in some of these communities, the population is truly Aboriginal. But the problem is that you really need to go and look at these communities. You need to travel through them. You have to understand that it's not the case in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg. It's for everyone. It's for Australians. I'm sick and tired of hearing the division in this nation of whether it's for the Indigenous or non-Indigenous. This is about helping Australians, regardless of the colour of their skin. It's about trying to make a difference for many people here.</para>
<para>This card will finish on 1 January. I did give you the percentages with regard to the BasicsCard. The advantage for BasicsCard holders is that the number of retailers and outlets that they can purchase from jumps considerably to 900,000. I've got to say to the senators who are opposing this card that what you've said in the past is, 'Go and get a job.' To hear other senators say, 'The government should be providing the incentives and siting infrastructure,' I totally agree. We should have the infrastructure projects to make jobs for people. But you've got to also understand that there are a lot of people out there who don't want to work. I've spoken to a lot of businesspeople. The jobs are available, but they don't even apply for the jobs. A lot of businesses have availability. Farmers can't get workers here in Australia. The whole fact is that they can't get workers because the welfare is too good. It may look poor in our eyes, because we are fortunate enough to have very good jobs that pay very well. A lot of us have worked hard to get here, but many people are quite happy to live on the welfare payments that they receive. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WALSH</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor opposes this bill and Labor rejects the statements made by Senator Hanson in this chamber today. So many people from around the country have contacted me to let me know that they oppose this bill too. 'I want dignity and respect, not the cashless debit card.' These are the words of Hannah from Nunawading in Victoria, and this sentiment is repeated time after time in letter after letter and email after email that my office has received on this scheme. People do not want this card.</para>
<para>Hannah knows, as do all the people who have contacted my office, that this bill, the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, lays the foundation for punitive and compulsory income management to be rolled out across the country. This is yet another government scheme that proves clearly that this government's policy towards low-income people is to disrespect them, to disempower them and to demonise them. That is the reason the government are still pursuing the compulsory rollout of this card. First Nations don't want it. Australians don't want it. Every test, every review, every piece of research has told us that this card does not achieve its stated aims. It doesn't work. This bill, and this scheme, is straight out of the Liberal Party's bottom drawer; it's straight out of their old, tired, nasty playbook. It is designed to drive people down, not to lift them up.</para>
<para>The bill is a stalking horse for a national rollout of the cashless welfare scheme. The bill will make the card permanent in the existing trial sites of Ceduna, the East Kimberley, the Goldfields and Bundaberg-Hervey Bay. In the Northern Territory it will permanently replace the BasicsCard with the cashless debit card, and in Cape York too it will replace the BasicsCard with the cashless debit card. Across these sites, the bill will lead to over 34,700 people being on the cashless debit card permanently, without any choice: compulsory income management. We also know that government ministers have previously backed a national rollout of this scheme. We know that the government continues to invest in the back-of-house technology that would allow it to conduct that national rollout. We know that this government has an ideological obsession with income management, regardless of the facts and the evidence. This bill is a step towards the national rollout that this government so desperately wants. A national rollout would impact over 1.6 million Australians on unemployment payments, many of whom have just lost their jobs during the COVID-19 pandemic.</para>
<para>The government argue that the cashless debit card scheme for social security recipients reduces hardship and deprivation, helps with budgeting strategies and reduces the time recipients spend on welfare and out of the workforce. They hope to achieve this by forcing recipients to use a cashless card, which quarantines 80 per cent of their social security payments, but we know that it isn't working. The cashless debit card and compulsory income management have been the subjects of multiple inquiries—multiple inquiries that this government has chosen to ignore. It's pretty clear that this scheme is causing harm and hardship. It's making budgeting more difficult and penalising people who are already doing it tough. A recent independent study using data from the Ceduna trial site was the latest to prove just how ineffective this scheme is. It found no impact on the outcomes the government says it is trying to achieve—no impact. In a trial site where this government wants to make the scheme permanent, it was found to have had no impact. Dr Luke Greenacre, from the University of South Australia, one of the researchers on this study, summed up the scheme by saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the card offers very little, if no return on investment … the cost of implementing and administering the card isn't producing substantial community benefits …</para></quote>
<para>Another study, from earlier this year, wrote about how the scheme was causing more harm than good; that it was causing feelings of stigma, shame and frustration amongst participants. Professor Greg Marston, from the University of Queensland, said of participants interviewed for the study:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… they would be visibly upset, recalling incidents where they've been called out for being on the cards and the way in which they hide the cards when they're making transactions in shops.</para></quote>
<para>He went on to say that most participants never had issues with managing their budgets or spending but that their biggest problem was that they just didn't have enough money for essential items. The study concluded that the case for continuing the scheme was weak.</para>
<para>Last year Dr Elise Klein, from the University of Melbourne, told the Senate's Community Affairs Legislation Committee:</para>
<quote><para class="block">If we … are serious about evidence based policymaking, we must stop the ongoing operations of the cashless debit card … or … make them entirely voluntary.</para></quote>
<para>Again: if we are serious about evidence based policymaking, we must abolish the card or make it entirely voluntary. It is clear, many years after the first mandatory income management scheme was introduced, five years since the cashless debit card was introduced, that it does not work. It is clear that this card, this scheme, is having an overwhelmingly negative impact on people's lives.</para>
<para>Emilie, from Bundaberg, is already on the card. She says that hearing that the scheme would become permanent was hard to take. When asked how it made her feel, she said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I guess hopelessness is the best way to describe it.</para></quote>
<para>Those on social security elsewhere in the country are terrified that the card will be rolled out nationally. Hannah, from Nunawading, who I mentioned earlier, says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… being forced onto the Cashless Debit Card will … further disempower me.</para></quote>
<para>Lesley, from Katoomba, says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I resent the fact the Government believes that responsible people like myself are unable to manage our own finances. [This card] … takes away our rights, our independence and more.</para></quote>
<para>People who have the card don't want it. People who might have to have the card in the future don't want it. We know that all the evidence that has been collected points towards the card not working and not achieving the government's stated aims.</para>
<para>But it gets worse. This scheme and this card are clearly racially discriminatory. Of the 34,700 people this bill would put on the card permanently, with no choice, 68 per cent are First Nations people. First Nations people, organisations and representatives say the policy is yet another government imposition. Senator Dodson and Senator McCarthy have spoken in this chamber and described how this card takes away the autonomy of First Nations people and their self-determination. This is just another policy imposed on First Nations people without adequate consultation, without adequate consent from the community. Compulsory income management is racially discriminatory.</para>
<para>All Australians want a government that delivers practical solutions for their lives, not tired old ideological positions like this one. But what they have is a government whose only plan for their future is to take away their ability to empower themselves, to make their own decisions, to find their own solutions to the problems they face. But the government just doesn't seem to care about that. This bill is just another example of how its approach to low-income Australians is demonisation. This government thinks that if you fall on hard times it's your fault. According to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston, in her own words:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Giving [people] more money would do absolutely nothing … probably all it would do is give drug dealers more money and give pubs more money.</para></quote>
<para>As we all know, according to the Prime Minister, Scott Morrison, 'if you have a go, you'll get a go', 'the harder you work, the better you do' and 'if you're good at your job, you'll get a job'. These are his own words, and we all know what they're really saying: if you're poor, it's your fault; if you fall on hard times, it's your fault; if you're poor, you can't be trusted with your own money. This is the kind of thinking that drives their old, tired, nasty policy positions—policy positions that are straight out of their playbook; policy positions that have nothing to do with evidence, facts or what is actually proven to work; policy positions that end up causing pain, despair and disempowerment.</para>
<para>The cashless debit card is not the first program to cause this level of hurt to vulnerable and low-income Australians. We have just seen the government forced into repaying over a billion dollars to the victims of robodebt—a scheme that hounded and harassed people, a scheme that caused people anxiety and stress, a scheme that derailed lives, a scheme that destroyed lives, a scheme that targeted vulnerable, low-income Australians. Robodebt was deeply flawed. It was illegal. The government knew it for years, but they insisted that that scheme go on anyway.</para>
<para>Based on the evidence and the research, based on the stories and concerns of those already on the cashless debit card, we can see that this scheme is really no different to robodebt, because the government actually knows that it doesn't work. It knows it has a negative impact on vulnerable Australians, but it's going to push it forward anyway. Why? Because this is a government that goes after poor people. This is a government that hounds poor people. This is a government that harasses them. It attacks their dignity. It invades their privacy. This is a government that relentlessly pursues poor people and drives them into the ground. That tells you everything that you need to know about this government.</para>
<para>The cashless debit card takes this approach so far that even some of the government's own MPs have cold feet about this bill. The member for Bass, Bridget Archer, was damning in her assessment of the scheme. She said the scheme is punitive. She said that there is just not enough evidence that supports this program to justify the associated harm that it causes. The member for Bass summed it up pretty well when she said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Whenever you approach a human program by inciting shame and guilt, you have already lost those that you are seeking to help.</para></quote>
<para>The member for Monash, Russell Broadbent, also admits concerns about the cashless debit card scheme, so the government are not only ignoring the experts on this bill and on this program, not just ignoring the communities that this is going to impact so negatively, but also now ignoring their own backbench. Just as they ignored the warnings about robodebt, they're ignoring the warnings about the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>This scheme, as we know, is straight from the Liberal Party's bottom drawer, straight from the bottom drawer of their nasty, tired, old, ideologically driven playbook. This bill is the government's priority right now for this country. This is the bill the government want to pass this week. This is the bill that they want to focus on when they should be lifting up people, not driving them into the ground. This is the bill that they want to pass this week, when they should be focused on a big, bold, inclusive plan for Australia's recovery, not a plan that is discriminatory. They should be focused on a plan that is inclusive and that lifts up everyone. They should be focused on a plan which empowers people to find work; a plan that creates good, secure jobs; and a plan with real heart.</para>
<para>That's what Australians are looking for from this government this week, in the last sitting week of this parliamentary year. They're looking for a plan with real heart, not a plan that demonises people and not a plan that drives them to absolute despair. Australians are looking to this government for a plan that gives them hope for a better future, but instead what we have in this last sitting week of parliament for this year is this bill, which we know is racially discriminatory. They're focused on this bill, a bill which takes away autonomy and choice for First Nations people and for all people who are pushed onto this card. They're focused on a bill which has alarmed social security recipients. They're alarmed that the card is going to be imposed on them too. This is a bill that lacks basic evidence. It's a bill that lacks support around the country. It's a bill with damaging consequences, and I urge the Senate to reject it. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. The Greens strongly oppose this bill. The Greens and I completely reject Senator Hanson's disgraceful contribution to the debate on this bill. Referring to and bringing in a family member of Senator Thorpe's in her speech is a new low for Senator Hanson. If Senator Hanson had a skerrick—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, please resume your seat. Senator Hanson was asked to withdraw that remark, and did so. So it's not appropriate to continue to refer to it. Thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pauline Hanson's One Nation Party epitomises what is wrong with this bill: racism and discrimination. This bill will make current cashless debit card trial sites permanent and extend the card to the Northern Territory and Cape York, to replace the BasicsCard. Compulsory income management is paternalistic, it is cruel, it victimises people, and it punishes people for being poor and unemployed. Compulsory income management in Australia has been cynically and disgracefully targeted towards First Nations communities, from the introduction of the BasicsCard as part of the Northern Territory Intervention to its expansion to trials in communities with higher than average proportions of First Nations people. This bill is racist, this bill is discriminatory and this bill further punishes people who have been targeted by governments for more than 200 years.</para>
<para>The government has provided no evidence that compulsory income management improves people's lives. As the Greens dissenting report to the bill inquiry points out, the government continues to rely on debunked data from a single flawed evaluation to justify compulsory income management, while ignoring other independent studies that question the card's utility and find that it causes stigma, shame and frustration. The evidence base for continuing or extending compulsory income management is just not there.</para>
<para>What we do have is the testimony of people who are directly affected by this terrible policy—people who have already been hurt and people who will be hurt if this bill passes. The Senate inquiry into this bill heard from people who have either experienced life on the punitive cashless debit card or who are terrified of being forced onto it when it is expanded. The inquiry heard criticism and concerns from First Nations people, disabled people, single mothers, people who have struggled with their mental health and people who have suffered as a result of unemployment and a broken social security system. I want the Senate to hear what some of these people had to say. You should all know exactly what you are being asked to vote on, in the words of most important people: those who have been and who will be harmed by the passage of this bill.</para>
<para>There are too many to fit in my speech today, but I will read out some of them. I will start with a couple of excerpts on racism and discrimination: 'I know myself it was targeted to Aboriginal people, but for the government to sort of keep their nose clean, they involved everybody else, so it didn't have to be, didn't look like, it was pointed directly at Indigenous people. But we know, as Indigenous people, that's what it was. In my point of view, it's racial discrimination and a human rights breach, because this card was really aimed at Indigenous people. The card was designed to control the alcohol, but it hasn't, and the people that are doing good by it, we are getting the full punishment. It's just racist and violates our human rights, and it's not fair.'</para>
<para>Some people reflected on mental health, saying, 'Having experienced the difference in my mental and emotional health by participating in the cashless debit card trial, I can unreservedly say that the trial was one of the lowest points in my life. The fear of possibly being forced into it again is absolutely debilitating to my mental health, and it has prevented me from fully appreciating the freedom of being taken off the card. The stigma of the card has increased my levels of depression and anxiety. It will be a consistent reminder that I am unable to gain paid employment because of my disabilities, which I was born with. I didn't have a choice in the matter. I feel that this card will make me feel like a third-rate citizen who is perceived as not being able to manage my own money'. Other people described some of the most terrible of the impacts:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Over the last 5 yrs I have watched as people have become homeless, become hopeless, been medicated, tried to kill themselves, have opportunities ripped away for self employment as Indue refused to allow access to their cash to be able to buy stock etc.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I have seen people bullied, reduced to tears, I have seen Indue staff try to trick young people into giving out bank and credit card information for their parents without consent.</para></quote>
<para>   …   …   …</para>
<quote><para class="block">The women and their children are copping the brunt of the stigma, exclusion and financial destruction caused by being forced onto the card.</para></quote>
<para>Another said the Indue card:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… makes life as a single mother more difficult than usual. You just lose any control in your life. You can't even properly manage your budget and go shopping with confidence.</para></quote>
<para>Others reflected on disability: 'I have enough to deal with already, being disabled. My life is already horrible, and my family is brought down by my disability. It's demeaning and an awful way to live. I don't need the card making my life more miserable than it already is. I feel my depression would become unbearable if there were more restrictions put onto my life and my husband's life.'</para>
<para>So many people reflected on the shame and misery that this card brings: 'The day I applied for this income support is the day my world changed as my life became one of shame. In the eyes of politicians and the Australian public, I was someone to be vilified and demeaned.' 'The thought of being put onto forced income management and the Indue card horrifies me, and the economic control it represents fills me with anger.' 'This card spreads misery and suffering. To support the cashless debit card and compulsory income management requires either supreme ignorance or intentional malice. I do not know which would be worse, though given that the result is the same either way I guess it does not matter. Please show the public that you are better than that.' I wish I had time to read more of these so the people who are supporting this terrible, cruel punitive bill that punishes others in the community could listen to more of what people had to say.</para>
<para>This rubbish card and this rubbish bill are all about controlling the lives of some people. We know exactly whose lives this government wants to control. The lives that they want to control are the lives that they don't think are deserving of the same dignity and the same rights as they have. So I ask you all today, and especially the crossbenchers, to have some empathy, to listen to and actually hear the people that you are effectively punishing if you vote for this bill. The Greens and I vehemently oppose this bill.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GREEN</name>
    <name.id>259819</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm joining this debate today to talk about, as many speakers have done, the personal stories of people who have been on this card and are looking, through the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, at the possibility of permanently being on the cashless debit card and the impact that that has had on their lives and will continue to have on their lives going forward. I also want to take some time today to address some of the misconceptions about the way that this program is operating in Cape York, because I know that has been referenced on many occasions. I've actually spoken to the people who are running this program, so I want to spend some time to talk about that today as well.</para>
<para>I want to respond to some of the pretty disgusting things that Senator Hanson said about people on this card but also people generally who, at times in their lives, need to seek support from the government. Ultimately, we know that this legislation will be voted on and decisions will be made by our crossbench senators. I want to take some time today to appeal to those crossbench senators on this legislation. We know that it is a big decision to make and a lot of pressure would be bearing down from the government on these senators to make a decision to support this program. But can I say that this is not the legislation to let the government off on. This is not the legislation on which to let the government get away with thuggish, cruel behaviour that treats vulnerable people as if they are worthless. This is not the legislation on which to let the government get away with pushing through a policy with no evidence in the last week of the parliament because they want to get this done before they go home for Christmas. We know that the Prime Minister was the architect of the robodebt scheme. This is not the legislation for our crossbench senators to let this Prime Minister get away with yet another scheme that will hurt vulnerable Australians.</para>
<para>It is the personal stories that we need to listen to today, because the government will assume that they know best but we need to listen directly to the people who are affected by this legislation. Kerryn Griffis, a mother of four from Queensland, told <inline font-style="italic">7.30</inline>:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I feel like in the Government's eyes I'm a lesser person. In the public's eyes it's much, much worse … What have I ever done for the government to treat me this way? To treat thousands of other people this way? We've been branded as drug addicts and alcoholics and gamblers and dole bludgers. Most of us are just doing the best we can to get by.</para></quote>
<para>These are extraordinary words: 'In the government's eyes, I'm a lesser person'. This government is treating people as if they are worth less.</para>
<para>Bundaberg resident Emilie Randell, who is 28 years old, was placed on the card in November 2019 after she finished full-time study and moved onto the JobSeeker payment. She said the decision to make the card permanent where she lives was difficult to accept. She said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It is hard to put into words, I guess hopelessness is the best word to describe it … I was putting everything into them ending the trial in December. I’m really frightened for what it means for the future.</para></quote>
<para>Hopelessness—that is what this program does to vulnerable Australians. Governments are supposed to look after vulnerable people, not punish them. If the government won't protect our most marginalised and disadvantaged Australians then this Senate has to step up and do that job and block this legislation. That is the job that this Senate must do because we know that this government won't.</para>
<para>This program has not had an evaluation made public for senators to consider whether it even works in the first place. We've received anecdotal evidence from people who support the legislation, people who have an interest—a very big interest—in getting this legislation passed. But the social services minister, Anne Ruston, admitted in the Senate that she didn't even read the report before deciding to make the cashless debit card permanent. The Morrison government spent $2.5 million on a University of Adelaide report but didn't even wait for its findings before deciding to proceed. That is because this legislation isn't about evidence based policymaking; it's about ideology. This is about treating people as if they are worthless. It speaks to the government's ideological obsession with income management and attacking the most vulnerable. It is the same ideological obsession which led to robodebt and the mental harm that robodebt caused.</para>
<para>There have been many inquiries and reports into the effectiveness of income management in the past, and what the evidence has shown is that compulsory, broad based income management is causing significant harm to communities. The Auditor-General has found no evidence that the cashless debit card works and recommended better baseline data collection and monitoring. Independent analysis of the card by the University of South Australia made several findings, including that it has had no impact on reducing gambling or intoxicant abuse. It doesn't work. It is not doing what the government says it does, and that is one of the reasons why senators in this chamber should not support this legislation. The study found that the cost of implementing and administering the card came with little to no return on investment. It costs money to deliver this card and deliver this program, and we are talking about value for taxpayers because taxpayers provide this welfare in the first place. But taxpayers are actually being ripped off, because there is no return on investment for a program like this because it doesn't do what the government wants it to achieve. It actually has the opposite effect:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… a very large amount of evidence shows … 13 years of new income management in the Northern Territory … has had almost no positive impact—</para></quote>
<para>no positive impact, and yet the government is still trying to push this legislation through</para>
<para>The cashless debit card will affect two areas of Queensland directly, and I want to talk about both of those communities today—in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay in the Fraser Coast region, and in the Cape York region. The government has chosen to make the trials permanent in those two communities for various reasons. They're two very distinct communities, but they will feel the same impacts. From the outset, can I say it reflects very poorly on the members in the other chamber who represent these communities in Queensland that they didn't have the guts to step up and speak about this legislation. They voted for it; they sat in the other chamber and they voted for the legislation. But they didn't have the guts to stand up and say why they were supporting it. That's because they know that in their community there is no support for this card. They are waving these changes through without questioning them or making it clear to the parliament where they stand.</para>
<para>Those two personal stories that I read out at the beginning are from locals from the Bundaberg and Hervey Bay area. Many, many members of the community in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg have campaigned against this card, but they are not being listened to. The member for Hinkler and the member for Wide Bay have completely gone missing on this. It really does go to show why, in the last state election, these two areas swung towards Labor, and they were two areas where Labor actually picked up seats. I mention that because it's a warning to this government that, if you go down this road, the community will respond. They will respond to this. You're not giving them a jobs program or a jobs plan—a way to create jobs. Unemployment is through the roof in these areas. They don't want income management; they want jobs. But that's not what this government is doing.</para>
<para>I will make some brief comments about the Cape York program, because it's very important that the Senate understand that the program in Cape York is completely different from what the government is considering rolling out across the country. There are 128 people on income management in communities like Aurukun, Coen, Doomadgee, Hope Vale and Mossman Gorge. Importantly, the decision to move to income management is only made after case management and discussions with the person involved. It is also regularly reviewed, and this is completely different from how the cashless debit card operates in other parts of the country.</para>
<para>It is not okay for this government to tie that program to the rest of these programs across the country by saying that this legislation needs to be pushed through; otherwise, that program in Cape York could fall over. We support that program in Cape York because the community members support that program. It is operating in a completely different way from the rest of the country. If the government wanted to do the hard work, they could have taken that program out of this legislation and dealt with it separately, but they've put it in this legislation to try to put a time line on passing this broader program through the Senate—again, cruel behaviour, thuggish behaviour, from the government.</para>
<para>We know that this bill will impact First Nations people more than any other group—and it was disappointing to hear those comments from Senator Hanson today. I know that maybe she has visited some of the communities in Cape York. She certainly hasn't listened to them, because, if she had, she would not be supporting a broader rollout of this program. Even the members of Cape York communities understand that their program is separate from the one being rolled out across the country, and they don't like the idea of this government using them to justify putting more First Nations people in the Northern Territory into a difficult position.</para>
<para>I started this speech by talking about personal stories. We have heard from people directly affected by this scheme. Many of them are single parents. I grew up in a single-parent household, and I am proud of the life that we had and of where I came from. I'm proud of the lessons that it taught me and the truth that comes from knowing that you're not better than anybody else, and no-one is better than you, just because you had the luck to be born in another suburb. But I understand feeling just like Kerryn when she says, 'I feel like, in the government's eyes, I'm a lesser person.' The problem with feeling like that, feeling like you're worthless, is that it becomes self-defeating and self-fulfilling. It is hard to step up and to step out of poverty when you are treated like dirt by this government.</para>
<para>There are many single parents who have fled their homes to escape domestic violence, and this card will prevent those families from starting a new life. I know. I was a kid bundled into a car to leave. I've stood there with friends and gotten all of their belongings together so that they could leave a home of domestic violence. One of the most important factors is having financial security, and if this government wants to tell people how they can and can't spend their money then it will definitely impact on those single parents and the kids that they are seeking to protect. There are many, many single parents out there who this will impact.</para>
<para>I honestly understand what it's like to feel embarrassed, but I don't understand why a government would want to embarrass people. Governments are meant to lift people up, not make them feel worse about themselves. So I'm asking the crossbench, and particularly Senator Lambie and Senator Patrick, to not let this government get away with making people feel like this. They've done a dodgy job on this program and this legislation from the beginning. There's no evidence. They haven't even read the report. They've left it to the last minute. Well, let them wear it. Let the government wear this problem. Let them fix the problems that not passing this legislation creates. Let them cop it, because, if we pass this legislation, the people that are going to cop it are the most vulnerable and disadvantaged people in our entire country. Don't let the government get away with this. Do not let the government get away with making people feel absolutely worthless.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, which is purported to be about reducing the rates of alcohol, drug and gambling addiction but is actually a triumph of ideological posturing over evidence based policymaking. The bill will make the cashless debit card permanent in the existing trial sites of Ceduna, the East Kimberley, the Goldfields and Bundaberg-Hervey Bay. It will also permanently replace the BasicsCard with the cashless debit card in the Northern Territory and in Cape York and extend income management in Cape York until 31 December 2021. This is an ill-conceived, racist and un-Australian bill, seeking to implement a poorly thought through policy.</para>
<para>It also contradicts the government's stated approach to Indigenous affairs. First Nations people were told by the Prime Minister in his Closing the Gap speech in February that his government's approach to closing the gap would be one of partnership with First Nations people. He said they would be listening to First Nations people, empowering them and handing back responsibility. Well, those words are completely meaningless if Mr Morrison's government don't practise what they preach, and this bill is a grave example of imposing policy on First Nations people rather than engaging in the promised partnership approach.</para>
<para>The bill also runs counter to evidence. We've had plenty of time to review this evidence. It's been 13 years since the Howard government's so-called Intervention in the Northern Territory. The evidence shows that compulsory broad based income management does not work. Not that the Morrison government is interested in whether the cashless debit card actually works—ever since it was first proposed as a trial, it was always the intention of the Liberals and Nationals to have a broad-scale, permanent rollout of the card, and who knows how far it may extend. After all, the Minister for Social Services, Senator Ruston, told Senator McCarthy in estimates on 29 October that she had not read the Adelaide University report on the Goldfields trial, even though this bill was introduced to parliament on 8 October. Yes, you heard me correctly. The government spent $2.5 million on this study, yet the minister presses ahead with making the cashless debit card permanent without even bothering to read the report. I'm not sure what outrages me more: the fact that there was the wastage of $2.5 million of taxpayer's money on a report that failed to be read by the minister or her decision to press ahead with a change that is going to impact 34,000 Australians without making sure she had all of the facts before her.</para>
<para>The Community Affairs Legislation Committee inquired into this bill, and the inquiry received a lot of interest, attracting 145 submissions in a short period, including 61 from organisations. Labor senators, in their dissenting report, outlined some of the evidence that showed that the cashless debit card, and income management more generally, lacks effectiveness. Professor Tony Dreise, the director of the Australian National University's Centre for Aboriginal Economic Policy Research, gave evidence in a private capacity and told the inquiry:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the evidence supporting the impact of both the cashless debit card and the BasicsCard is flimsy and largely anecdotal, not rigorous and reliable. The evidence does not stack up. It does not show that the cashless debit card has had a positive impact, and a very large amount of evidence shows that, after 13 years of new income management in the Northern Territory, it has had almost no positive impact.</para></quote>
<para>The Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists told the inquiry that there is also no clinical evidence to support the cashless debit card. In its submission, the college wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… we are concerned at the continued pursuit of this policy against the advice of addiction specialists… More than 50 years of psychological research shows that positive reinforcement strategies are more effective than punitive strategies in bringing about behavioural change.</para></quote>
<para>Evidence given to the inquiry about the ineffectiveness of the cashless debit card has been backed up by many studies. An independent analysis of the cashless debit card in Ceduna found:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We have shown the CDC policy to have had no substantive effect on the available measures for the targeted behaviours of gambling or intoxicant abuse.</para></quote>
<para>Commenting in <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> in Australia, one of the report's author, Dr Luke Greenacre, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">From the more quantitative, economic, whole of community perspective, it suggests the card offers very little, if no return on investment.</para></quote>
<para>The Auditor-General also found, in his report on implementation and performance of the cashless debit card trial, that there is no evidence to support the government's claim that the card reduces social harm. Not only is compulsory broad based income management not effective in reducing harm, but, in some ways, it could actually cause significant harm.</para>
<para>During the inquiry's public hearing, Ms Kathryn Wilkes from the lobby group No Cashless Welfare Debit Card Australia detailed some of the harms reported to them by people subject to income management. She said that because Indue, the provider of the card, refused to set up continuous payments, people defaulted on their rent and ended up blacklisted or on the streets. Women escaping family violence who had worked hard to gain financial independence were suddenly finding it stripped from them because they were required to have a cashless debit card simply because of their post code. Ms Wilkes also said she'd been told of multiple stories of money being stolen from Indue accounts through hacking and scams, including a sole parent who had $942 stolen from her account. The general manager of community services for the Salvation Army, Stuart Foster, told the same public hearing that the mandatory participation of people on social security payments in income management was leading to 'negative outcomes, including poor mental health, social isolation and stigma'.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! The debate is interrupted. Senator Bilyk, you will be in continuation when we return to the legislation.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</title>
        <page.no>30</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS BY SENATORS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The great civil rights campaigner Martin Luther King said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.</para></quote>
<para>Of all his famous quotes, this is Martin Luther King's finest, because it goes to the heart of what really matters—the individual and not the identity. That is the difference between the coalition and the Labor-Greens alliance. We believe in the individual, based on mutual respect, whereas they prejudge people, based on identity, and then attack that identity. Liberal democracies are built on the notion all people are created equal. Respect for the individual and how that individual treats other individuals is the foundation of a fair society.</para>
<para>It was this belief that drove great thinkers like Locke and Voltaire and great statesmen like Washington and Jefferson to argue and fight to give people the right to vote, the protection of property and the rights to freedom of speech, freedom of thought and freedom of association. Who can forget the words of the great American forefathers when they wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed … with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.</para></quote>
<para>You can contrast these quotes with Senator Wong's provocative comments:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We are no longer trapped in the ignorance of our own assumptions and prejudice, premised on the underlying supremacism of the narrative that white people know best.</para></quote>
<para>Senator Wong shows her own ignorance and prejudice by assuming non-Indigenous Australians are ignorant and prejudiced. To assume that non-Indigenous Australians believe in some supremacist narrative is an insult to our tolerant way of life—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Urquhart is raising a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Urquhart</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would ask that the senator withdraw that. He is reflecting on another member of this chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, would you like to consider the comments that you've made. I don't want you to repeat them, but would you consider withdrawing those.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> No, because I didn't reflect on the person, I reflected on the comments, which are in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard.</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, I ask you to reflect on the language that you are using. I think we've had demonstrated, in this chamber this morning, some unparliamentary comments, so I'd ask you to reflect on the language that you're using. You have the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>To assume that non-Indigenous Australians believe in some supremacist narrative is an insult to our tolerant way of life. I don't see it reflected amongst everyday Australians at all, and it certainly wasn't in my maiden speech, where I paid tribute to the Middle East civilisations:</para>
<quote><para class="block">As the birthplace of writing, irrigation, astronomy, algebra and our major religions, the Middle East is the cradle of our civilisation.</para></quote>
<para>Furthermore, I said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The undeniable truth I learnt from my travels is that we're all the same. We all want a roof over our head, food in our stomach and a better life for our children. What binds us together is much more than what drives us apart. We must promote a unified Australia, rather than ideologies that seek to divide us.</para></quote>
<para>There was nothing supremacist about our pioneering fathers when they came here as convicts, refugees or fleeing famine, like my own ancestors who sought a better life like many of today's first-generation immigrants. People shouldn't be prejudged by a label, by a race, by a religion, by their sexuality or by where they came from. Furthermore, they shouldn't be held to account for the actions of their forefathers, who lived in a different time and in different circumstances. Yet that is exactly what many others on that side of the chamber seek to do—play identity politics instead of governing for all people. Those who complain about our past, especially in this chamber, have no right to belittle our pioneering forefathers, whose toil and sacrifices, albeit with flaws and injustices, made this country what it is today and is the reason they came here. It's not how I choose to remember those who came before us. Indeed, thanks to technological advances due to empirical science and discovery that flourished under the Reformation, the last 300 years have seen life expectancy double and slavery abolished in most parts of the world.</para>
<para>If those opposite really cared about the welfare of Indigenous Australians and wanted to help, they would speak up about child abuse and neglect in those communities. As per the Australian Institute of Health and Welfare, Aboriginal children are more likely to be victims of child abuse, neglect and sexual assault. During 2011-12, Indigenous children aged zero to 17 were nearly eight times as likely as non-Indigenous children to be the subject of substantiated child abuse or neglect. In 2012, rates of sexual assault reported to police among Indigenous children aged zero to nine in New South Wales, Queensland, South Australia and the Northern Territory was two to four times higher than rates among non-Indigenous children in these jurisdictions.</para>
<para>Virtue signalling about the location of flags, about words in the national anthem or about another chamber in this place is avoiding the real issue—the welfare of every person in this country, regardless of the colour of their skin. What matters is that children are safe in their homes, are healthy, are educated and, most importantly, have the love and support of their communities and parents. There is no place in this country or this chamber for hate, blame or guilt. Identity politics cloaked behind virtue signalling over empty gestures and false arguments will do nothing to close the gap and is not the way forward. The Morrison government is committed to closing the gap and to dealing with the issues that really matter.</para>
<para>We live in the greatest of times. No other time in history has seen humans enjoy so many comforts, such good health and so many freedoms, yet there is a destructive activism, promoted by those opposite, who want to destroy these hard-won freedoms in order to impose their views and will over the people. They are doing this through identity politics in order to divide and conquer those who value free thought and individual liberty. Statements like 'Always was, always will be' will do nothing to promote inclusivity and tolerance. The idea promoted by the likes of SBS that you're in someone else's country is wrong and intimidating. This country belongs to every Australian, regardless of their race or background.</para>
<para>It's time for a new dialogue in Australia, one that looks to mutual respect between individuals and future opportunities free from identity politics. It's why the Labor Party should replace Senator Wong with Senator Polley. Senator Polley's commitment to tolerance and inclusivity was demonstrated earlier this year when she tweeted, 'Every life matters no matter what the colour of your skin is.' The Labor Party's commitment to intolerance and divisiveness was demonstrated when they made her take that tweet down. Is there no Labor politician who has the courage to push back on identity politics?</para>
<para>Where you were born doesn't define you. What defines you is your attitude and your willingness to treat people with respect and without prejudice, especially as to where they came from. Former LNP senator and niece of the great Neville Bonner, Joanna Lindgren, previously said in this chamber:</para>
<quote><para class="block">For those who harbour internal guilt due to past injustices, or those who think they are doing good, let me say this: you are creating division and resentment … We want education, opportunity and employment, not songs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Songs—</para></quote>
<para>or flags—</para>
<quote><para class="block">will not change a single thing. Will playing that song at a Doomadgee state school or in the Doomadgee area change the alcohol problem they struggle with? Will playing that song at Woodridge raise the employment opportunities? Will it help the Quandamooka people of Stradbroke Island have employment when the sand mining is brought to an end?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">What hope is generated from this? … as an Aboriginal person, I want to see my culture and language preserved and represented, and not used as a political football.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Welfare</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Northern Territory and those hundreds if not thousands of families across Australia in the trial sites for the cashless debit card. For the record, there are two trial sites in WA, one in South Australia and one in Queensland. One of the areas that I'm focusing on in terms of this issue that we are debating in the Senate is that I want to bring to the attention of the Senate some of the important information that has come through numerous inquiries that we've had. This important information is from people who have given evidence to senators throughout a couple of years of inquiries. I'd like their voices to be on the record:</para>
<list>Receiving social security support predominantly through cashless debit cards may impact the ability of victims/survivors to leave violent relationships given the lack of disposable cash. If a woman has children, the available 20% may be even further reduced considering all necessary school and other child-related expenses that cannot be paid via direct debit.</list>
<para>That concern about women being able to leave violent relationships, in particular, has been raised over the years that we held the inquiry. It is a legitimate concern that continues to be raised through organisations like the Australian Council of Social Service and the Northern Territory Council of Social Service and also through women's shelters, who talk about the need for women to be financially able to leave those situations. It is important that the Senate is aware of that, because there have been views and anecdotal comments saying that, if we don't have something like the forced income quarantining of the cashless debit card, it will not help these situations. I'd like to put on the record that having forced income management actually exacerbates those unsafe environments for women and their families and prevents them from being able to leave those environments.</para>
<para>Olga Havnen from the Danila Dilba Health Service in the Northern Territory gave evidence to the Senate inquiry in 2019. I'd like to put her comments on the record:</para>
<quote><para class="block">More than 23,000 Aboriginal people have been subjected to income management or income quarantining since 2007—</para></quote>
<para>in the Northern Territory. She went on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The original objectives of income management were supposedly to improve the health, wellbeing and education outcomes of Aboriginal children and to protect women and older people from humbugging and violence. During the period 2007 to the present time—</para></quote>
<para>2019, when she gave evidence—</para>
<quote><para class="block">there is an absolutely astonishing lack of credible evidence that income management has made any significant improvement to any of the key indicators of wellbeing: child health, birth weights, failure to thrive, and child protection notifications and substantiations. There are no improvements in school attendance, and certainly nothing we can see would suggest that there has been a reduction in family or community violence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Our concerns with the proposal to transfer current recipients of the BasicsCard to a new cashless debit card is that what we're going to get is more of the same, and it fails to fundamentally address the significant structural flaws of the scheme—namely disempowerment, failure to address underlying structural issues, and the cost of implementation and ongoing management of the scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a failed experiment and should, I believe, be abandoned. The numerous so-called trials are expensive. They're an ineffective phoney that have caused untold misery and hardship. It's an outrageous waste of millions of dollars of public money that could have been better used to provide targeted and tailored supports—for example, things like parenting programs, treatment and support services for people with addiction and gambling problems, improvements in health and environmental health programs, and more funding for health, education and employment. There are a multitude of real, evidence based initiatives that could have been supported to improve the lives of Aboriginal children and families.</para></quote>
<para>That was evidence given to the inquiry into the cashless debit card by the Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee in 2019. It was given by Olga Havnen, the CEO of Danila Dilba Health Service in Darwin, which covers a huge population of First Nations people, including beyond the Darwin boundaries.</para>
<para>Walter Shaw is from Tangentyere Council, which is an organisation that looks after the town camps around Alice Springs. There are between 14 and 17 town camps around Alice Springs, so they have an organisation in which a town camper is a representative on the Tangentyere Council. Walter Shaw is the CEO of that organisation, and I'll quote his evidence to the community affairs committee inquiry:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I was only made aware 10 minutes before they walked into my office.</para></quote>
<para>He was referring then to federal agency staff doing consultation of sorts on CDC. Mr Shaw said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I refused to sit down with them during that conversation. After the fact of that conversation that was held—I think Mike was in the meeting alongside my chief operations officer—about three weeks later they requested rounds of consultation with town campers. They wanted to do a cluster approach of providing a level of community engagement and awareness that the cashless debit card is going to roll out and it's going to affect the affected people that are currently on any welfare or Centrelink income.</para></quote>
<para>Where Mr Shaw was coming from was that this was a complete surprise. There was certainly no request about how they were going, and there was no interest in what kind of life people were having on the current system with the BasicsCard. This is quite critical, I emphasise to the Senate and to senators. There is already a piece of legislation in place, the Stronger Futures in the Northern Territory Act 2012, which covers the Northern Territory and covers the policy of the BasicsCard. What is needed, senators, is a thorough inquiry and evaluation of the BasicsCard. We need to understand what has worked and what hasn't worked in the Northern Territory and what the families themselves think and feel about this regime that they've been forced to live under for 13 years.</para>
<para>The inability of the Senate to recognise that you want to bring in another policy over the top of one that you haven't even checked to see whether people have achieved the outcomes which were supposedly set at the beginning, in 2007, shows a failure of the parliament, of the Senate and of the government in particular. It shows that you don't care. You don't care. It's almost like you go out and you say: 'Look, we want you to live like this, but then we're going to move you to this, but then we'll move you over here to this. We don't know why, but it looks nicer and shinier over here and we think we should move you from that spot to that spot because it actually works for us. It doesn't matter about you.' That's how the people of the Northern Territory feel.</para>
<para>It's imperative for the dignity of the Senate that we base our collective decisions on information that comes from the people of Australia, from those families who experience what it is like to be forced into having their income quarantined, to be forced into a situation where they feel so disempowered but, worse, where their disempowerment will not be listened to as part of what the Australian parliament should be doing. It is what the Australian parliament should be doing in evaluating whether the particular policy that you've imposed on a people has actually worked and achieved what you intended it to. The best-case scenario, even with your best intents, you haven't even bothered to find out. So when people say, 'It's not working; please listen to us,' you choose to turn away, turn your backs and say, 'Too bad, too sad, you're stuck with it.' That's not the Australian Senate I want to be a part of, and I urge senators to make sure of their decision today.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria: Forestry</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today to speak about the ongoing logging of native forests in my state. As I said in this chamber earlier this week, our people are not from country; we are of country. I call this place's attention to the ongoing and senseless destruction of forests in Victoria, country our people have called home for millennia, which had bushfires ripping through them less than one year ago. The colonial project in this country has had a lot of damaging and destructive impacts on our people and our country, but logging our old native forests for low-value woodchip has got to be one of the worst examples. My grandfather was a logger. He also worked in the coal industry; he died of black lung as a result. In those days they were the only jobs that blackfellas could get. But even he knew that it was only for a short time, and that he had to transition also because it was bad for country. This is not about taking people's jobs away; it's about transitioning them into jobs that will sustain them and our future.</para>
<para>We know that East Gippsland's communities are still hurting from last summer's bushfires. Those fires and their devastation will never be forgotten. The people who lost their lives will never be forgotten, and I want to send my love to those families and neighbours still grieving for their loved ones. I'm fortunate to have seen and known the giant sacred trees that remain in East Gippsland. I've spent a lot of time out in those beautiful parts of country. It's an ecosystem that has been there for countless centuries. After the fires that ripped through, I want these forests to recover. As much as possible they should be left to regenerate and return to their natural state. I want my grandkids and everyone's grandkids to be able to see these magnificent forests and to understand that they are the life support system of our country, the life support system of our earth.</para>
<para>This logging addiction that we've got in Victoria is so wrong. It is so backward and unsustainable. If the Victorian Labor government wants to keep logging then this federal government needs to step in and say no: no to letting VicForests restart logging in bushfire ravaged country, such as Bidawal, Gunnai, Monaro and Ngarigu country in East Gippsland; no to destruction of the remaining wildlife habitat and carbon stores of these forests, which also include our totems; no to continuing logging while the state government's own major event review of the bushfires is happening. Under the regional forest agreements, this logging and destruction is done on this government's watch. Those agreements are signed by both Victoria and the federal government. They are signing away our country for a quick buck. It will mostly end up as woodchips and printer paper. Shame! It might be the Victorian Premier's own logging agency doing the bulldozing but it's also on this government's head. Let us not forget that.</para>
<para>Thankfully, there are dedicated forest defenders on the ground in East Gippsland to keep watch on VicForests. I thank Goongerah Environment Centre and the many forest protectors across Victoria for their work in exposing the plans of VicForests to move in and log bushfire affected forests—a shout-out to Chris Taylor. Your FOIs, your legal cases, your wildlife surveys and your blockades on the ground have shone a light on what's really happening. The reports in the media this week have been scathing, and rightly so. We know that VicForests were found to be logging illegally earlier this year; the Federal Court said so. Now they are in the forests of East Gippsland doing more damage.</para>
<para>Allowing logging to continue in the landscapes that were burnt by the megafires of last summer is outrageous. It's greedy and it's short-sighted. The loggers claim they are cleaning up after the fires, salvaging logs that would otherwise be wasted. But this is kicking an ecosystem whilst it's down. Removing burned logs takes away hollows and habitat that the remaining wildlife need to stay safe and sheltered. The science and Indigenous knowledge are clear on this. Research shows that logging forests after bushfires increases future fire risk and can make the forest uninhabitable for wildlife for decades. We heard a report this week from WWF that confirmed that almost three billion animals were killed by last summer's bushfires. These fires burned through 70 per cent of East Gippsland's forests and 78 per cent of Victoria's remaining rainforest, and 244 endangered species lost over 50 per cent of their habitat.</para>
<para>The Victorian Labor government and this federal government have together announced a major event review of the bushfires. This is going to assess the impacts of the 2019 and 2020 bushfires and how those events affected the regional forest agreements in Victoria. There is no doubt we need a review. Those fires had enormous impacts on these forests. We need to know exactly what state they are in and how to protect them into the future. But the logging should stop while that review is happening. How can we say that these forests are so disturbed by fire that it constitutes a major event and then say, 'Okay, business as usual. Happy for you to go on and keep logging'? This makes no sense.</para>
<para>I note that the Victorian state government have indicated they would welcome traditional owner voices on the review. This major event review should have traditional owners represented properly as part of the process, not as a tick-and-flick tokenistic gesture. It has to have free, prior and informed consent. So much of this destruction is happening because consent was never sought from First Nations people. We need assurances that First Nations voices will be heard in this process. How can the Andrews government be negotiating treaty in Victoria in good faith while it continues to log our country? This push to go in and log after the fires is a desperate move from a dying industry. The writing is on the wall for the native forest logging industry. We can get what we need from sustainably grown plantation timber. The vast majority of domestic paper and pulp already does come from plantations, so why not leave these forests alone to recover from the bushfires? We need to make the transition out of native forest logging now, not in 10 years.</para>
<para>I worry so much about the desecration and destruction of country. I worry that my kids and my grandkids will inherit a ruined landscape where water catchments that have dried up and native animals have been sent to extinction. The Victorian Labor government and this federal Morrison government need to wake up. Only the Greens are fighting for these forests and speaking up for these life support systems. We call on our fellow parliamentarians to join us. We know that without these forests we will have no air to breathe, no clean water to drink, no wildlife and no habitat. That's not affecting you now, so that's not at the front of your mind, but it will be in the minds of your granddaughters. It is our job to make a safe future for everyone. Logging in East Gippsland and across Victoria needs to stop now. No trees, no treaty.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender Dysphoria</title>
          <page.no>34</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last week in the United Kingdom, a momentous judgement with international implications was handed down by the High Court. The court found in favour of the arguments put forward by the mother of a child with gender dysphoria and Keira Bell, a brave 23-year-old woman who had at 16 been prescribed puberty blockers after three short appointments with the Tavistock youth gender clinic. The judges in this case observed that prescribing puberty blockers to children with gender dysphoria is an experimental treatment with real uncertainty over the short- and long-term consequences of the treatment and with very limited evidence as to its efficacy. Given the potential lifelong effects on fertility, sexual function, bone density and development of these treatments, as well as a lack of evidence of their full long-term impacts, the court found that children are very unlikely to be able to adequately understand and give informed consent to these experimental treatments.</para>
<para>This judgement has profound implications for Australia, not that you would know it from the muted—in some cases, non-existent—coverage by many Australian media outlets. Let's look at what's happening right now in Australia and how out of step it is with what has been found in the UK High Court. Last month Bernard Lane, in <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline>, reported on the Family Court removing an Australian child from its parents because they wanted psychologists to consider other possible factors in their child's gender dysphoria and the potential for other non-invasive treatments. The parents told the <inline font-style="italic">Weekend Australian</inline> that state authorities had said it was dangerous for their child to come back to their house because they want a thorough assessment by an independent psychologist and they hadn't consented to testosterone treatment. The parents know their child needs help and support, and they want it to be provided by medical experts in an evidence based way. For this, the child has been taken away from them by the state. The mother told <inline font-style="italic">The Australian</inline> newspaper that their family and friends were shocked at their story. They just can't believe it had happened in Australia.</para>
<para>Last week, just as the UK High Court was finalising its findings that puberty blockers are an experimental treatment for which young children are unable to give informed consent, the Victorian government introduced legislation which criminalises discussion of the very same issues highlighted by the court. The Victorian legislation makes any conduct or practice that is not seen as gender affirming potentially illegal. The definition is so broad that it includes conversations and online discussion. Under this bill, Keira Bell, a woman who has been through the transition process and had a court uphold the legitimacy of her concerns regarding the process, could be charged with a crime if she were to discuss her experience with a young Victorian experiencing gender dysphoria. If the bill passes, the Victorian human rights commission will be given extraordinary powers to launch investigations into people questioning gender change practices and to 'take any action it considers appropriate after conducting an investigation'. They will also offer education to persons and organisations engaged in change or suppression practices—practices which, as the bill makes clear, can include conversations about gender identity theory and the risks of experimental medical treatment on children.</para>
<para>Everyone familiar with how these commissions operate around Australia can foresee how these powers will be used and abused. Another round of guidance will be issued, threatening that it is against the law to question unproven medical practices such as puberty blockers. Investigations will be launched into parents and medical experts who question the single focus on gender-affirming medical interventions. More pressure will be applied to media not to report on any debate that questions medical interventions in children who have nothing medically wrong with their bodies.</para>
<para>If this legislation isn't Orwellian and dangerous enough on its own, it has been introduced by the Victorian government at the exact time that the states are supposed to be working together to develop a service model for safe and appropriate care and treatment of children and adolescents with gender dysphoria. How can the Victorian government play a central role in developing an evidence based model of care whilst simultaneously introducing a law criminalising any treatment that is not gender affirming? How can they take this position when the UK High Court has just handed down findings that puberty blockers are an experimental treatment for which children are unable to give informed consent? The same questions, frankly, have to be asked of the Queensland and ACT governments, who have also forced through similar laws in the past year.</para>
<para>In Australia, just as in the UK, the number of children and adolescents being treated for gender dysphoria with gender-affirming medical interventions has skyrocketed in recent years. Patient numbers at the Tavistock clinic in the UK rose from 97 in 2009 to 2,519 in 2018. We know from FOI data that referrals to Victoria's Royal Children's Hospital gender clinic rose by more than 1,700 per cent between 2012 and 2019. We have no idea what the national figures are, because states do not release the data on how many children have been given puberty blockers, hormone treatment and surgery. In fact, we don't even know if this data is kept. If states do have this data, then they need to release it publicly now so that we can get a full picture of what's happening.</para>
<para>The UK High Court in their judgement expressed extreme surprise the Tavistock clinic was not able to produce data on the treatment provided to their own patients, including the proportion of those on puberty blockers who move on to receive cross-sex hormones. Surely state governments have an obligation to find out if their own clinics are operating with the same absence of data.</para>
<para>We all want the best possible care for all children and adolescents who are suffering from any form of emotional distress. This care must be based on the most thorough evidence based approach so that mistakes aren't made which have longer term consequences for these young people, consequences which Keira Bell and so many detransitioners have bravely detailed on the public record at great personal cost. It's clear from the Keira Bell judgement that there are many valid concerns about medical interventions on children experiencing gender dysphoria, yet for many years people raising those exact concerns, both here in Australia and around the world, have been labelled as hateful and transphobic and been accused of pushing children towards self-harm, just as those with legitimate evidence based concerns about women's sport and women's services have been defamed as transphobic and ignored by the mainstream media.</para>
<para>Thanks to the bravery of Keira Bell and the efforts of her supporters, the world can now see that silencing and pushing aside these concerns does not guarantee better outcomes for children who need care, support and the best possible medical assistance. This must be a turning point for Australia, away from silencing and slurs and towards proper evidence based outcomes and proper public discussion.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>China: Human Rights</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to give my last speech of the year that's not on legislation where I get to actually determine the subject matter that I might discuss, and I promised myself earlier in the year that I would give a speech about the plight of the Uighur people before Christmas came. I do that mindful that I am a person who lives in a democracy where freedom of religion is absolutely my right. And it's in democracy that we find an expression of one of the core beliefs that Christianity delivered into the world—and I am a Catholic—and it's that notion of equality, the common dignity of every human person. Other people find in other faiths and from no faith ways to express their belief in egalitarianism and freedom and fraternity, but people who will be celebrating Hanukkah and Christmas have particular languages around faith that we are free to use—words that enhance my life and I'm proud to bring to my role here in the parliament. But there is no freedom for a particular group of brothers and sisters in this world who are in the People's Republic of China, and I speak of the mass detention, surveillance, forced sterilisation and torture of the Uighur population of north-west China.</para>
<para>The People's Republic of China has enacted the largest incarceration of an ethnic or religious minority since the Second World War. While this crackdown was purportedly launched on the flimsiest claims of stopping terrorism and extremism, it has instead become a cruel and brutal expression of state terror and cultural and religious genocide.</para>
<para>For those listening to this debate in the Australian Senate today, as we approach Christmas in the year of 2020, this is a shocking tale, and the truth is many Australians will not know that this is happening. For those who haven't heard about the Uighurs, they are a Turkic-speaking minority group who predominantly reside in the north-west Chinese autonomous region of Xinjiang.</para>
<para>There are around 11 million Uighurs in China, and international observers now estimate that up to two million, nearly 20 per cent of the entire population, are now in re-education camps or jails. The Chinese government has repeatedly barred international observers and journalists from visiting the region and consistently lied about the internment camps until satellite photos uncovered their insidious and startling growth. This campaign to forcibly assimilate the Uighur culture is being carried out in silence and with brutality while China wields its economic might to silence any nation or people that may dissent.</para>
<para>I have seen the drone footage of hundreds of Uighurs being led onto trains, blindfolded, shaved and in prison uniforms. I'm imprinted in my own Catholic education by teachers who made sure that we didn't look away from the Holocaust. How similar are the images of people being herded into train cars and taken away from the places in which they have a right to live. These appalling images corroborate the stories of those on the ground—of Uighurs and other minorities such as the Kazakhs who have managed to flee the terror in Xinjiang.</para>
<para>In the PRC, the outward signs of citizens who are deemed to be showing extremism are frankly ridiculous. Some things as simple as travelling abroad, not smoking or drinking, growing a beard, having a foreign social media account or praying are worthy of detention in jail. Many detainees who undertake these simple practices are forced to work in intensive labour camps to produce goods for Chinese export while also being forced to recant their culture and their faith.</para>
<para>The mass internment has been accompanied by a cultural genocide designed to suppress the Uighur culture and traditional practices. The Uighur people are predominantly adherents of the Islamic faith. The destruction of dozens of Uighur graveyards and religious sites, the banning of the Uighur language in Xinjiang schools, and the blacklisting of Uighur books, films and music are calculated moves by the CCP—the Chinese Communist Party leadership—to erase the entire Uighur culture. Uighur children are being fined the equivalent of about A$40 for speaking their language at school. Sitting on the floor in a traditional manner is banned. The wearing of headscarves and long dresses is prohibited, and any government employee who speaks Uighur is promptly fired. This is an outrage. It's something so deeply unfamiliar to Australian citizens that it's hard for us, in our democratic country, to believe that such practices are going on in this time, in a place that's not that far away.</para>
<para>Chinese officials are now even forcing Uighur women to take birth control or be forcibly sterilised. According to a recent Associated Press report, at the same time as forcing that restriction on Uighurs, the state is encouraging Han women to have more children. The report shockingly revealed:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands … Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang.</para></quote>
<para>Birth rates in the Uighur communities have plummeted 60 per cent between 2015 and 2018 and by a further 24 per cent in 2019. Uighur children are being taken from their parents and indoctrinated in preschool camps with prison-style walls, surveillance and electric fences where they're raised completely separately from their Chinese counterparts. The enforcement of these abominable practices is widespread. Uighur parents are often threatened with jail for having too many children. They're constantly monitored by invasive fertility tests and surveilled constantly on the streets and in their homes.</para>
<para>This is a slow, creeping genocide as outlined by article 2, sections (c) through (e), of the United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, as the Chinese state is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.</para></quote>
<para>The People's Republic of China is signatory to this convention of the United Nations, and I urge them—indeed, I implore them—to live up to their obligations and stop the persecution of the Uighur people.</para>
<para>The People's Republic of China cannot live up to its true potential as a nation while it continues to commit these crimes. It's a stain that will last for generations. It will be forever tied to the current leadership of Xi Jinping. I urge the PRC leadership to end the persecution of the Uighurs and allow these people their basic freedom to practise their culture and religion as they deem fit.</para>
<para>All that it takes for evil to prevail is for good men and women to look away. We cannot look away, condone or tolerate such calculated brutality and oppression of cultural and religious freedom. To ignore the plight of the Uighurs would send a signal to every nation around the world that Australia doesn't care about human rights so long as its powerful trading partner is trampling on them. We must speak out against this. More importantly, we must act. That is why, in my Christian message here for the Australian parliament, at Christmas, I'm saying to the Uighur people: 'I see you. Australia sees you, and we will not look away.'</para>
<para>Australia was among the 22 countries which signed a joint statement to the UN Human Rights Council calling on China to stop detaining Uighurs. I commend the government for that important statement, but Australia must go further in its actions to stop the genocide. I know that the United States Congress has passed the Uyghur Human Rights Policy Act. It is currently debating the Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act, which would boycott goods made in labour camps, sanction Chinese officials that have participated in this vast campaign of surveillance and detention, freeze Chinese US based assets and restrict access to visas.</para>
<para>I note recommendations in a recent bipartisan parliamentary inquiry into the Magnitsky sanctions here in Australia, which offer a way to advance the discussions about the important matter with the PRC. As Nobel Prize laureate and Holocaust survivor Elie Wiesel said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">When human lives are endangered, when human dignity is in jeopardy, national borders and sensitivities become irrelevant. Wherever men and women are persecuted because of their race, religion, or political views, that place must—at that moment—become the center of the universe.</para></quote>
<para>My Christmas prayer is for our—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, thank you.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Electric Vehicles</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on electric vehicles, and I do so because the government is not speaking on electric vehicles. Australia's electric vehicle policy is battery dead, and it's in need of a jump start. The reality is that the nature of transport is changing. Electric vehicles are the future, and we have some choices to make about Australia's role in that future.</para>
<para>I know people have an apprehension about electric vehicles in respect of range anxiety. These things are changing with technology, and the use of electric vehicles is positive in almost all respects. In terms of productivity, people in their own private cars will enjoy the lower operating costs of electric vehicles compared to internal-combustion-engine vehicles. People will enjoy the fact that most electric vehicles have very few moving parts—no pistons going up and down and those sorts of things. Again, that adds to productivity.</para>
<para>We would also see electric vehicles assisting us in our fuel security. We have an awful fuel security problem here in Australia. We've got something like 26 to 27 days of fuel stored here in Australia. Perhaps in an event like COVID but worse—indeed, a conflict of some sort—we would find ourselves very rapidly running out of the fuels we are so dependent upon. Also, in that respect, it helps balance trade. If we're not importing fuels, that assists us in that economic metric.</para>
<para>We would also enjoy a lowering of emissions. I know that's off-putting to the coalition government, but this is free. You get better productivity. You get better outcomes and a cleaner environment as you're improving the economy. Of course, there are fewer pollutants that come from the exhaust pipes of electric vehicles, because they don't have them, so we find overall that some of those noxious chemicals that are still being emitted from cars simply are not there.</para>
<para>The world is shifting away from internal combustion engines, so this is not a decision that the government has to make. It's a decision that's actually been made by the car manufacturers, who have announced they are moving away from ICE cars—internal combustion engine cars. So they're basically saying they're not going to be making them anymore. We could end up the dumping ground for outdated ICE technology. We also see that other countries have taken the step of announcing that the sale of ICEs will, in fact, be banned.</para>
<para>So we need to think very carefully about this. We need to be investing in the future. We need to be getting the infrastructure necessary for the rollout of electric vehicles in place. That includes more than just charging stations. It includes the configuring of parts. The building where I live in Adelaide is a relatively old building, and you have to commission significant works to be able to get a car-charging capability next to your car park in an apartment building. These sorts of things ought to be built into building codes to get ourselves ready for the future.</para>
<para>The other problem we have is that we now have things like plans to tax electric vehicles on a use basis. I don't think anyone has a problem with that, but right now is not the time to do it. Right now, we want to be giving incentives to people to switch across to electric vehicles, as a number of countries around the world have done, particularly places like Norway, which have fantastic incentives and fantastic uptake of electric vehicles. But right now we have South Australia and Victoria imposing electric vehicle taxes, and others are considering it. My understanding is that they are collaborating with each other on this particular issue. I get that we have to deal, as these vehicles come on the scene, with a lack of fuel excise to pay for our roads, but we want to do that in a consistent national way.</para>
<para>It's the same with charging. The charging arrangements that might be on electric vehicles can vary, whether it be the nature of the charging station or the nature of the grid technology that allows cars to return energy back to the grid in situations where the vehicle's sitting idle and the price for electricity is high. Then, of course, at some later stage, when the bid price is low, the electric vehicles can recharge themselves. There's all sorts of really smart technology that is out there, but we're going to end up with the same situation we had with our rail gauges, where each state has a different gauge. It's not helpful.</para>
<para>We need to have a sensible standalone national electric vehicle strategy to maximise the economic, environmental and social benefits that electric vehicles can bring. We need to have a national strategy that intersects and operates with and is worked up in conjunction with the states. I've already been talking about the grid arrangements, perhaps, in each state, and the building codes in each state. We need to get ourselves into a coherent position. We should be setting EV targets, and we should also be legislating to get clear fuel efficiency standards to give certainty to the private sector. We should be backing our own manufacturers to build our own EVs rather than just import them. I congratulate the government for providing some funding to ACE Electric Vehicles to look at setting up electric vehicle manufacturing in South Australia. That's a shining light in an otherwise pretty dark place.</para>
<para>We should also be using our own natural resources to create low-capacity battery manufacturing and value-chain supply activity. We take our lithium out of the ground and just ship it off overseas, where value-adding occurs, and we pay a huge price on the way back in—that price is not just the monetary value but the loss of Australian jobs that could have been in place, producing batteries. We could be investing in R&D in relation to vehicle-to-grid integration, which is another overarching system integration. We should establish and fund apprenticeships and traineeships in the local EV manufacturing, maintenance and support sectors. You can't take a mechanic, who's used to working on pistons and the rotating elements that you find inside a normal engine; you've got to bring in specialists who now work in batteries and permanent magnet motors and such technologies.</para>
<para>The opportunities are glaringly obvious, yet the government has decided to ignore them. What makes it worse is that these opportunities were made crystal clear in the final report of the Select Committee on Electric Vehicles in January 2019. I suspect that that report is sitting somewhere in government offices, gathering dust, and that's not acceptable. The fact that that report has been tabled and nothing has been done in two years means that we've lost two very important years—two years of dismal failure, two years with no electric vehicle strategy, no vision, no action, no idea.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Government Procurement, Australian Broadcasting Corporation, Video Games Industry, Australian Defence Force</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As our nation hopefully rounds the corner from coronavirus, I reiterate my call for the introduction of online transparency portals for government spending as a necessary measure to tackle wasteful, unnecessary spending and the growing size of government. Considering the economic and budgetary challenges confronting us, we must ensure there is as much transparency as possible when it comes to government spending. Every Australian should know where their taxes are being spent and what they are being spent on. It is only fair and reasonable that Australians who are working hard for their money are given insight into how their taxes are being spent.</para>
<para>The transparency portal approach, which is already being used overseas, would allow taxpayers to find details of how their taxes are being spent, down to the payment level—how much, to whom, for what and when—in a format that would be simple and universal across all government departments. Obviously, there would be exclusions for areas like defence and intelligence expenditure, for the sake of our national security. By bringing in a system of online transparency for government spending, accessible to the individual, there can be greater accountability and more responsible spending by government departments. This would lead to less wasteful spending and, I believe, would reduce government spending by openly highlighting the how, what, why and when of government spending by departments and where these agencies are actually spending their money. If anything, it will be an ongoing reminder to public servants and departments that the source of their expenditure is not the Treasury coffers or some magic money tree here in Canberra, but those who contribute to them—the taxpayer.</para>
<para>With easily accessible information, every Australian taxpayer can become an auditor of how their government is spending their money. From this increased transparency and the resulting accountability, a reduction in wasteful government spending will offer greater opportunities for savings or to fund the essential investment we need as we rebuild our proud, open, free and prosperous nation.</para>
<para>It was brought to my attention in my role as Chair of the Joint Standing Committee on Electoral Matters that the Australian Broadcasting Corporation commissioned Kerry Blackburn to review the national broadcaster's coverage of the 2019 election. Following a series of questions through the committee's inquiry into the 2019 election and subsequently through Senate estimates, it has been established that the ABC paid $52,000 for this report—a $52,000 report that they are now refusing to release. The ABC claims to support the public's right to know, but time and time again it fails to practise what it preaches. So I wrote to the ABC asking them to bring this report to light. They refused. Subsequently, my office lodged an application under the Freedom of Information Act only to have it rejected by the ABC on the grounds that this report related to programming.</para>
<para>There have been news reports suggesting that this review did, in fact, find issues of bias in the coverage of last year's federal election. If that is the case, surely taxpayers, who pay for the ABC, have a right to know. If that is the case, why is the ABC keeping this review secret from the taxpayers, who contribute over $1 billion a year to the ABC? As such, today I'll be moving a motion in the Senate to order the production of documents—requiring the ABC to produce this report—because parliament and the Australian public have a right to know, even if the ABC thinks we don't.</para>
<para>Last Wednesday I, alongside the Labor member for Gellibrand, Tim Watts, launched the Parliamentary Friends of Video Games. As a noob, a newbie or, as people now know me, 'Senator Newbie', I am very honoured to be supporting this growing industry across Australia. As promised at the launch, I call out, 'Honk,' in honour of the angry goose in the <inline font-style="italic">Untitled Goose Game</inline>. But it is quite serious. Why would I, someone who knows very little about computer games and knows very little about the video game industry, want to get involved? The answer is very simple. There are so many opportunities for jobs, skills and businesses within the growing gaming industry in Australia. This parliamentary group, which has members from across the chambers in it, recognises the growing importance of the gaming industry and the many millions of Australian households who enjoy gaming. In fact, over 65 per cent of Australians identify as gamers. As a nation we are spending billions of dollars each year on games and gaming hardware and software.</para>
<para>There are many opportunities to support the game development industry as it grows. As a government there is so much we can do to support this very important industry. For example, video games are explicitly excluded from the tax offsets that are accessible to the film industry. That's wrong. I've previously called for the video game industry to be able to access these tax offsets. A 30 per cent tax offset for the video game development industry would build a new information based export industry and create thousands of jobs. In Canada over 25,000 people are employed in the industry, and in Australia a little over 2,500 people are. There are so many jobs for us to find and so many businesses for us to grow. I look forward to continuing as co-chair of this new parliamentary friendship group and advocating for ways we can foster the development of the Australian games industry. It is said that a puppy is for life and not just for Christmas. It's the same with video games—they're not just for Christmas; they are for the coming years to help grow the Australian economy.</para>
<para>On a more solemn note, I'd like to take a moment to recognise and respect the contribution made by all defence personnel, be they those in current service or the veterans who have served us. We sleep safely at night because of the sacrifices of those men and women, and we owe our all to those men and women.</para>
<para>Today, I'd like in particular to pay tribute to those Australian soldiers who have served in and those who continue to serve in Rifle Company Butterworth in Malaysia. They recently marked the 50th anniversary of its establishment. In particular, I'd like to acknowledge the efforts of the veterans involved in Malaysia's second emergency against communist insurgents, between 1970 and 1989, and the protection of RAAF aircraft, families and facilities at the air base at Butterworth. From 1973, Army troops in infantry company groups were deployed from Australia to Butterworth and had orders from the RAAF commander of the air base to provide a quick-reaction force that could be activated at short notice to repel attacks by communist insurgents. The Army troops received intelligence briefings on the nature of the insurgency threat to the air base, carried weapons and live ammunition, had orders to use lethal force should it be necessary and regularly practised responding to potential threats. It is undeniable that our Army troops were integral, with the Malaysian forces, to protecting the air base at Butterworth from the threat of attack by communist insurgents.</para>
<para>Despite acknowledging the threats posed by the communist insurgency and the need to deploy Army troops to carry out protective tasks to assure the safety and security of the air base, the defence committee of 1973 made recommendations to the government that the decision to deploy Army troops be presented publicly as being for training purposes, underplaying their real role. Many Rifle Company Butterworth veterans have since campaigned, to no avail, to have their service recognised as warlike service, given the strategic importance of their role and the threat of conflict in the region. I would like to acknowledge and thank the extensive efforts by Rifle Company Butterworth veterans, since their involvement, to have their service recognised as warlike service in light of the critical role they played in the defence of Butterworth. Following the decision to award the VC to Teddy Sheean—which is well deserved and a decision that I support and that everyone in this chamber supports—I would ask the government to consider the Butterworth veterans' endeavour to claim appropriate recognition for their service.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aged-Care</title>
          <page.no>40</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LINES</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Today I rise to speak about aged care. I particularly want to focus my remarks today on the aged-care workforce. I say at the beginning that, as an organiser with my union, the United Workers Union, I initially started out as an organiser in aged care. For most of the care homes in Western Australia that I visited—even though that was a long time ago now—most of the employers are still the same. There's a stark difference between what's going on now and what was going on when I was organising aged-care workers.</para>
<para>Yesterday, I had a Zoom meeting with aged-care workers right across Australia—proud members of the United Workers Union. I spoke to Delia, Tracey, Donna, Evia, Emma and a male I'm going to refer to as 'Joe' because using his real name would disclose to his employer something he's doing which is frowned upon. These are workers who absolutely care about the job they do. Up until the COVID pandemic, it's fair to say that these workers were overlooked. They did their jobs. They're low-paid workers. They work part time. They've got a real challenge in the work they do, but they do care for the residents that they're asked to care for. Many aged-care workers have told me that, sadly, they're the last person some aged-care residents speak to before they pass away. I've heard my good friend Jude Clarke in WA describe residents dying in her arms, because family members are not there or are aged themselves. Certainly during COVID that was much more difficult, when many families could not visit their loved ones in aged care.</para>
<para>So these workers are really dedicated, but they are really lowly paid. Even when I was organising in the sector many years ago, it was common for aged-care workers to work two jobs. The most you can earn as an aged-care worker is $25 an hour—$25 an hour to do the work that they do. If you work in food services or in cleaning, you'll earn less than that. Most of them rely on weekend penalties. But none of the workers I spoke to yesterday, including the worker who works full time, earnt enough to survive on—not one of them—because even if you work full time you will earn less than $1,000 a week, which is about $300 a week below what Australians describe as the median average for what people earn in this country, so they are way below what most workers would expect to be paid.</para>
<para>But pay is not their No. 1 concern, surprisingly—and, from my perspective, sadly. They're really worried about the parlous state of aged care, and they have five demands that they've made. The first one is that they want more funding, but they want to see that funding directed to caring and not to profits. As most in this Senate would be aware, aged care in this country is predominantly run for a profit. There are community and church groups involved in aged care, but the vast majority of homes in our country are run for profit. The workers want mandated staffing, staffing that the employer has to put in to ensure quality care. Surely there's no-one in this place who would deny that. They do want a decent wage. It's not enough to say, as some have now been saying, 'Let's make those full-time jobs,' because a full-time job for an aged-care worker on $23 to $25 an hour does not provide a living wage. It is still not enough. They want to be able to do just one job, and they want a voice for fairness: they want their delegates and their union to be recognised by the employers. These are not massive or radical asks. They are pretty decent asks.</para>
<para>What we've seen during the pandemic, sadly, is a very high number of deaths in aged care in Australia. I know that the government likes to say, 'Oh, in comparison to what's happened elsewhere in the world, our deaths are low,' but I find that a hollow statement. Anyone who lost a loved one in this country would be insulted by that comment, because a death is the loss of someone who is loved by a whole range of people. There were unacceptably high numbers of aged-care residents who passed away, and we seem to have, in the Morrison government and, indeed, the minister, not much caring going on.</para>
<para>What came to be highlighted for these workers is that they work two jobs. Some of them work three jobs. Certainly all of the people I spoke to yesterday, bar one, work additional jobs. The person I'll refer to as Joe has four children to support. He works as a cleaner in an aged-care facility. In the morning he also does school cleaning, and in the afternoon he does school cleaning, so it's school cleaning morning and afternoon and cleaning in an aged-care facility in the middle of the day. That's been frowned upon by most, and he's not being honest with his employer, but if Joe doesn't do that he can't make enough money. He barely makes enough money now to survive in his family with his four children. So there is no point in criticising aged-care workers for having more than one job. They have to do additional work to make ends meet. There is no point in saying, 'Well, we'll give them full-time hours,' because it's still not enough when you're only earning $23 an hour.</para>
<para>We saw that really mean gesture earlier in the year from the Morrison government when people stood up and said, 'We're going to pay a supplement to all aged-care workers,' and, when the rubber hit the road, that supplement was paid only to the caring staff. So, of the workers I spoke to yesterday, two would have got the supplement and the rest—including Joe, who works two jobs to make ends meet—would not have got that supplement.</para>
<para>So it is time for the Morrison government to seriously look at the wages of aged-care workers and to have a minister who actually cares and commits to doing something proper about the parlous state of aged care and the disgraceful rate of pay for committed workers, who are risking their lives at the moment in those environments, and to raising their wages to a decent wage—not a fantastic wage. They're just asking for a decent wage. When the maximum you can earn is $25 an hour, that is not a decent wage, and it's time the Morrison government recognised that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It being 2 pm, we'll move to questions without notice.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>41</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Welfare</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. The Australian Securities and Investments Commission, ASIC, has advised that the ASIC Act 2001 prohibits a credit or debit card being sent to another person. I quote ASIC's advice:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A person must not send another person … a credit card or a debit card.</para></quote>
<para>What does this prohibition mean for the Morrison government's proposed rollout of the cashless debit card in the Northern Territory?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator McCarthy for her question. I would like to advise the senator that the premise on which she's based her question about the cashless debit card being contrary to section 12DL of the ASIC Act 2001 is not actually correct. The power is a protection to prevent financial institutions from signing people up to products such as credit cards with preapproved limits without first obtaining their approval. Just as when social security payments are made by another means, via cheque, it's clear that directing someone's social security payment to—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston. Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to table the letter from ASIC, which might assist the minister in answering this question because it doesn't appear that her answer is consistent with the advice that's been received.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is leave granted? I understand it will be considered. For the moment, Senator Ruston to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>To finish off on this particular question: it's clear that directing someone's social security payment to the cashless debit card does not fall under the provision which Senator McCarthy referred to. That is why, in 2016, ASIC provided the government with a no-action letter for the purposes of the cashless debit card trial.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McCarthy, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given many communities do not have Centrelink services and the nearest towns are hundreds of kilometres away, what will happen to people who don't have a cashless debit card? Will they simply have no money, no food and no way of getting it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator McCarthy for her follow-up question. As Senator McCarthy would be well aware, what we are proposing to do with the rollout of the cashless debit card into the Northern Territory and Cape York is—I suppose this is the best description of it—to give the people who are currently on the BasicsCard a technology upgrade. At the moment we believe that there are probably around 16,000 places where the BasicsCard is able to be operated in Australia. The cashless debit card works in nearly one million outlets and basically is able to be operated in any premise that has an EFTPOS machine. The inference of your question is completely misplaced in the sense that the only thing this legislation seeks to do is to provide people who are currently on the BasicsCard the added utility and functionality of being able to use a card that is universally recognised.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McCarthy, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to table the letter from ASIC which refutes all of what the minister is saying.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The coalition government has been proposing the rollout of the cashless debit card across the whole of the Northern Territory for 18 months. How is it that the Morrison government has failed to properly consider that fundamental elements of Mr Morrison's proposals are prohibited by legislation, according to this letter from ASIC?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would beg to differ with the interpretation that is being made in the question as to what the letter says, according to my advice. However, I have the letter now and I will refer to it in the future. But I want to make it very, very clear that what we are seeking to do with the legislation to which the senator refers is to enable people who are currently on the BasicsCard—and, I have to say, it's a really well named card; it's pretty basic and it's also very obvious to people who are on the BasicsCard that that's what they're on. The new technology that works in every outlet that has an EFTPOS machine will be completely and utterly neutral in its appearance. People can use the card without anybody knowing the type of card it is. In fact, we are currently in discussions with the Traditional Credit Union in the Northern Territory to make sure that we can assist those people in the Northern Territory who wish to bank with their own credit union to use as well. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>COVID-19: Small Business</title>
          <page.no>42</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Employment, Skills, Small and Family Business, Senator Cash.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, restrain yourself.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, in the wake of a year of unprecedented challenges, how has the Morrison government taken action to support small business through the COVID-19 pandemic to keep their doors open and to keep their employees in jobs?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>To say that 2020 has been a challenging year for small and family business is an understatement. They are the lifeblood, as we know, of our communities. Every single day their hard work and dedication now see over six million Australians go to work, in a job, and they contribute around $418 billion to our national economy. COVID-19, though, has had a profound impact on them. In the wake of COVID-19 many, many small and family businesses have faced unprecedented challenges. Government mandated shutdowns because we needed to protect the health of Australians have meant that many small businesses around Australia faced disrupted supply chains and unimaginable trading restrictions when they were told that, because of the decision that we had to implement to protect the health of Australians, they would need to close their doors when we shut down parts of the Australian economy.</para>
<para>The disruption, of course, was no fault of the 3.5 million small family businesses around Australia. The Morrison government moved decisively and quickly to put in place historic levels of economic support to help those small and family businesses get through COVID-19. As we know, our JobKeeper payment has provided those small and family businesses what was needed to keep their employees on their books. Around 3.6 million Australians maintained that connection with their employer. The cashflow boost has now supported more than 800,000 employing small and medium businesses with $32 billion in terms of a cashflow injection. Of course, our supporting apprentices wage subsidy has now delivered over $741 million and is keeping around 104,500 apprentices in training on the job, where we need them to be.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, a supplementary question?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Is the minister aware of any examples of how the programs and supports the Morrison government has implemented have supported small business to rebuild, recover and play a key role in Australia's economic comeback?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can give an example from Senator Rennick's home state of Queensland, a gentleman by the name of Paul, an electrical small business owner and operator in Toowoomba. As a result of COVID-19, Paul, like so many others, was looking to downsize his business, but when the government announced the JobKeeper policy, that gave Paul the incentive and the optimism to invest in his business. The wage subsidy gave him the cash flow that he needed to take on two new apprentices. He utilised the expanded, and now extended, instant asset write-off and he was able to invest in a new ute to support his work. When COVID-19 hit, Paul was looking to downsize, but with the support of government policy he not only was able to invest in his business and buy that new ute but also was able to utilise the wage subsidy and he has now brought on two new apprentices. That's what the government is all about, backing small and family businesses.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, a final supplementary question?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister please update the Senate on how the Morrison government's GO LOCAL FIRST campaign is working to support small and family businesses, including over the Christmas and new year period?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Certainly, as the minister for small and family business, my message to all Australians this Christmas in the lead-up to it, as we go into the new year in 2021, is to go local first. The GO LOCAL FIRST campaign is all about raising awareness across Australia to spend with our local small and family businesses. Why? Because when you shop locally in Australia, you support a local community, you support a family, you support a local sporting club.</para>
<para>I am pleased to acknowledge that many senators and MPs across all sides of politics are proudly supporting the GO LOCAL FIRST campaign. In the lead-up to Christmas, if we have the ability to go out and purchase something, just remember: it might be something small to you, but, to that small and family business who has been doing it tough, it means a lot. My message to all Australians is: support our small and family businesses and go local first.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Birmingham. On Monday in question time the Prime Minister refused to guarantee that no worker would be worse off as a result of his industrial relations changes. Can minister confirm no worker will be worse off?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Sterle for his question. Indeed, our ambition is to ensure that Australian workers on the whole are better off and in fact that there are more Australian workers as a result of the types of reforms that our government seeks to bring forward. That is the crucial part of the challenge we face at present, coming out of the COVID-19 pandemic—that we make sure that we get more Australians into jobs once again. The recovery has begun, the comeback has begun, but it has a way to go.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is on relevance. The question wasn't about whether workers on the whole would be better off; the question was about whether every worker would be better off or whether no worker would be worse off.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have allowed you to restate the question, Senator Watt, and I will listen carefully to the minister. To be directly relevant to this question, an answer would be strictly defined by discussion of the bills that were introduced and were the subject of this, and I will listen carefully. I can't instruct him how to answer a question. I heard interjections asking for a one-word answer. It is not appropriate for me to attempt to instruct an answerer of a question. But I will listen very carefully to the minister continuing. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>At the height of the pandemic, our government sought to bring together unions and employers to engage in discussions around workplace relations legislation in the spirit of cooperation, not conflict. I thank all of those parties who came together. Our government is grateful for the cooperation that has been shown during the pandemic, for the engagement through those processes. Even though getting universal agreement to every issue of course proved immensely challenging, we welcomed the fact parties came together.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is on direct relevance. The minister has had over a minute—and a point of order on relevance—and he was asked whether he can confirm no worker will be worse off. Like the Prime Minister, he is avoiding the question, which is telling in itself. I would ask him to return to the question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am listening to the minister. He was turning to the bills, the direct topic. I cannot instruct him to answer a question in specific terms. If, however, he is narrowly speaking about this particular piece of proposed legislation, then I do consider that directly relevant, because the question is about that particular piece of legislation—obviously, without foreshadowing something on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>. I call Senator Birmingham to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Our approach and our spirit in this has been to try and achieve cooperation as to how reform can best be achieved to get the most number of Australians into employment and into jobs. Those opposite clearly already want to choose the path of conflict. We have chosen the path of cooperation. In relation to the better off overall test, the same two tests that currently apply will continue.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is on relevance. This is the fourth time we have asked the minister to confirm that no worker will be worse off. It's a pretty simple question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, the minister was actually talking about tests contained in the announcement at that point. I do consider that to be directly relevant, even if it's not in the terms the opposition would like. There's an opportunity after question time to debate the answer.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was saying, in relation to the better off overall test, the same two terms that the opposition put in place when they were in government will apply in the future—that is, the majority of employees needing to agree and, of course, the independent umpire, the Fair Work Commission, signing off on any EAs.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Birmingham. Senator Sterle, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, I have a very precise supplementary, thank you. Minister Birmingham, why is the Prime Minister refusing to guarantee that no worker will be worse off?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Our government has very clearly outlined our ambitions in relation to this reform. The senator comes in here and asks about a guarantee. The guarantee that we give is that every policy we are pursuing is about getting more Australians into jobs once more. That's the guarantee that we are pursuing. We went to the last election proudly, having seen during the preceding six years 1½ million additional Australians gain the opportunity, the dignity and the value of employment. That job creation record was unparalleled in Australian history. COVID-19 has hit that, but we have seen a comeback of more than 600,000 jobs to date, and our intention is to pursue the types of policies that will get more Australians back into jobs again into the future.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sterle, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At a time when almost one million Australians are unemployed, 1.4 million Australians are underemployed and, for Australians with jobs, wages growth is at record lows, why is the Prime Minister being dishonest about the impact of these changes, which will cut take-home pay and leave workers behind?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I had some hope through the first few parts of Senator Sterle's supplementary that he had been listening and that perhaps he did recognise the point that the government is making, which is that these reforms—the COVID recovery industrial relations package—coming on top of our budget measures and all of our other support measures, are all about getting more Australians back into jobs and ensuring that employers have the confidence to employ and the confidence to invest and create more jobs. We've been pleased to see the rate of jobs growth over recent months. It is crucially important we see that rate of jobs growth continue, that we get more Australians back to the position that we were in prior to the pandemic by getting them into work, by getting them into jobs and by creating those jobs through having the strongest possible economy, the strongest possible investment environment and the most effective workplace relations systems possible, built through collaboration and discussion between parties.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Birmingham. Senator Watt, learn to count to 10 slowly again.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fraser Island: Bushfires</title>
          <page.no>45</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Birmingham. A fire has been burning on the World Heritage site on K'gari-Fraser Island since 14 October—that's eight weeks—destroying some 80,000 hectares, or 60 per cent of the island, and killing the wildlife that call it home. What has the Prime Minister done to provide support to help save this precious forest, its biodiversity and the animals that live there? Or is it the case that he doesn't hold a hose, so it doesn't matter to him?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's just a cheap and pathetic question coming from the Australian Greens. It's a cheap and pathetic question that tries to score a cheap political point in the face of something that is actually very serious.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, I'm sure that's where the supplementary questions will go, but that wasn't even the nature of this question. I've got cheap political points coming from there and from there—from all over the place. In relation to the fire on Fraser Island, category B assistance—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Birmingham, please resume your seat. I can barely hear Senator Birmingham's answer.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Wong interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, when you're interjecting to that degree across the table, I think it's a bit much to expect a minister to not respond in a disorderly way to a disorderly interjection, but there were lots of interjections across the table.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was saying at least you're consistent!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to the Fraser Island fire, the government has declared a category B emergency. That results in various assistance being available for states and territories under the agreed formulation of assistance and work in conjunction with states and territories. I gather the Queensland officials have also identified the difficulties in relation to that fire. The particular difficulties are accessing the difficult terrain and the limitations that they have. Of course, the Commonwealth stands ready to assist, work and cooperate with the Queensland government where we have the resources or ability to do so. It's why the action has been taken in making the declaration already, and we will respond to any further requests that come from the Queensland government as swiftly as we can.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is the fourth World Heritage area in Australia to experience catastrophic destruction because of climate-fuelled fires in the past two years. Why has the government done nothing to stop climate change and to protect these globally significant sites? And what are you doing to take scientific advice to act now before it's gone for good?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What we have done in relation to climate change is, as a country—businesses, farmers, Australians—lead the world in many areas in terms of emissions reductions. That's what we've done and what we continue to do. As a country, we have delivered a 13 per cent reduction in our emissions between 2005 and 2018, compared with an eight per cent reduction in Japan or a one per cent in New Zealand or a 10 per cent reduction in the US. We've led in all of those cases.</para>
<para>As a people, as a per capita contribution, it's by far and away much greater than that. Our reductions over that period of time equate to 29 per cent on a per capita basis. That exceeds Germany at 16 per cent, Japan at seven per cent and Canada at 13 per cent. So, as a people, Australians have made contributions in reducing emissions far, far greater than the rest of the world, and in doing so have met and exceeded our commitments.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The World Heritage Committee warned the environment minister over a year ago that climate change was a threat to Fraser Island. The minister failed to act, and now the island is ablaze. Where is she, where is she hiding and will the Prime Minister get her to work?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, that's the type of cheap, headline-grabbing stunt that you would expect from the Greens, no doubt to be sliced and diced for a social media video on which they can grandstand, taking cheap shots, ignoring the facts or the evidence and ignoring the efforts that are being made that I was just referencing in relation to climate and emissions reduction. They ignore all of those things just so that they can grandstand. They ignore, of course, the fact that climate change is a global challenge. Australia is doing our bit in meeting and exceeding on the commitments that we make, but it also necessitates other countries to do more, to actually reduce their emissions to the same degree that Australia has. They're the things that we will continue to work internationally to engage in while investing record sums in terms of the technology road map and transformation necessary at home as well as helping to build adaptation and resilience in crucial areas like Fraser Island. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Boosting Female Founders Initiative</title>
          <page.no>46</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Women, Senator Payne. Can the minister update the Senate on the Morrison government's support for female-led start-ups across the country and how this will help build a stronger economy following the COVID-19 pandemic?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Chandler for her question. Just this week, the Minister for Industry, Science and Technology, Minister Karen Andrews, and I announced the first 51 grant recipients in the Boosting Female Founders Initiative. These are grants that are going to help some of our best and brightest women launch their ideas for the future. The initiative supports these women entrepreneurs to grow their businesses and, ultimately, to create jobs for all Australians. We do know that female founded start-ups do face additional challenges in getting the finance that they need to establish themselves and to grow as businesses. Through the 2020 Women's Economic Security Statement, we have invested over $35 million in the Boosting Female Founders Initiative. That will provide grants of between $25,000 and $480,000 to 282 start-ups that are majority owned and led by women. It will also provide tailored mentorship and advice to up to 4,300 women entrepreneurs.</para>
<para>The businesses are very diverse. They include businesses like Champion Life, a health education technology company which facilitates the development of lifelong healthy habits in young people. They include the award-winning Woolcool Australia, which is an innovative, sustainable packaging business that uses Australian wool for its products. They include a really interesting New South Wales business, based in the Hunter. The owner and operator is Cherie Johnson, an Aboriginal arts and education consultant who works on Aboriginal cultural capacity training and on cultural workshops, amongst other things. Amongst the 51 grant recipients, there's an extraordinary diversity of activity and there's an extraordinary diversity of businesses. It's because we believe in private sector led economic growth as well as in boosting women's workforce—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Payne. Senator Chandler, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister advise the Senate of the government's initiatives to help skilled women across regional Australia get back into the workforce or stay employed?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I know that, being from Tasmania, the senator will be very interested in this particular question, even if some opposite are not. This government is committed to boosting the confidence of rural and regional women in returning to paid work, as well as in supporting businesses to retain skilled women workers. The Senator Cash, and I recently announced the second intake of regional visitors that will benefit from the Career Revive pilot initiative. Under this initiative, business owners receive expert advice on how to improve their business practices and policies in order to remove the barriers that exist to women's workforce participation. It does help them to develop tailored action plans to attract and retain skilled women. Through this measure, regional businesses will be able to attract more women back to work after they've had an extended career break. It will strengthen regional business, boost women's employment in regional areas and rebuild our national economy.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Payne. Senator Chandler, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister also advise what the government is doing to support women and girls across the Indo-Pacific region, particularly with respect to peace and security?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This year we have, with Samoa, co-hosted two Pacific women led virtual meetings—over 30 women from more than 18 different countries—to discuss our responses to the issues challenging the region during the pandemic. It is a really important opportunity for those views to be heard, and I hope to host a further meeting before the end of the year. With the United Nations, we're also supporting local women's networks and peacebuilders to address gender based violence and to reduce isolation and exclusion. In the Solomon Islands, for example, we've supported increased involvement of women leaders in vital provincial roles helping with disaster management. We also know the risk that COVID-19 poses to women's health and safety as well as to their economic empowerment, leadership and resilience. This is a central priority of our very, very important Partnerships for Recovery strategy, including in our individual country programs in the Indo-Pacific.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations</title>
          <page.no>47</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Birmingham. Can the minister confirm that, under Mr Morrison's industrial relations changes, employers will be able to cut the wages and conditions of their employees?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the terms in which Senator Watt comes in and presents that, I certainly cannot confirm that's the case. What I can confirm is, very much, that the reforms we're putting in place are about getting more Australians back into work, building on the strong jobs growth that we have had in recent months and ensuring that continues into the future. In getting more Australians back into work, the different pillars of our COVID economic recovery are built upon ensuring that we have the strongest possible economy. We have that economy through the budget incentives to drive further investment; through the support for Australian households and families by bringing forward the tax cuts that will benefit those families and put more money back into their pockets to invest as they see fit; and through the types of measures in skills reform in the JobMaker program that we have made sure we are outlining and implementing to give every possible incentive for people to be work ready and for employers to particularly invest in employing young Australians. We build upon those reforms by ensuring that we have industrial relations and workplace relations systems that offer the capacity for employers to employ with confidence, that offer greater certainty for employees—for example, casual employees in terms of their rights and their opportunities to convert into permanency of employment—that, indeed, maintain the better-off-overall test under a framework where changes require the approval of a majority of employees and changes require the approval of the independent umpire. We have these frameworks in place and the scare campaign those opposite are seeking to start is just a sign of their desperation and desire to pursue conflict— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a very specific question to the minister: will it be possible for every worker at a workplace to be worse off because of Mr Morrison's industrial relations changes?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Australians will be better off as a result of there being more Australians in work. Australians will be better off as a result of every employer in the country having greater confidence to invest—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order. Senator Watt, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, you'll note that that was a very specific question and it was about whether every worker at a workplace will be worse off. It was not about workers generally and not about anything else. It was about workers at a specific work place.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Watt. I've allowed you to restate the question. Again, I come to the test of direct relevance, which is a narrower one than broad relevance that was in place until several years ago. In my view, to be directly relevant to such a specific question, the answer must refer to this particular aspect of the package of legislation. That shouldn't be taken as instructing a minister to answer in the terms that the opposition seeks, but I do think that a specific question of this nature requires an answer about this aspect of the policy in question. But, again, I say that doesn't have to accept the nature or the terms in which the question's asked.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said in relation to the primary question and in relation to earlier questions on this matter today, the better-off-overall test remains under the reforms that our government is proposing. Under that test the majority of employees needs to endorse a change—the majority of employees. So when the senator comes in here and asks a question about what happens to every employee, the test remains that the majority of employees needs to agree to the changes. It can't be any clearer than that for the senator. But that's not the only safeguard, because the independent Fair Work Commission needs to agree as well.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I know the senator doesn't want to answer this, but I ask again: can he give a guarantee that under Mr Morrison's industrial relations changes no worker will be worse off?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We do keep coming back to the same desire of the opposition to narrow a complex area of reform. Our intention is to make sure that Australian workers are better off—all Australian workers are better off—by virtue of there being more jobs for Australian workers. The more jobs there are for Australian workers, the more confidence every Australian worker should have—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order. I've got Senator Watt on his feet. Senator Watt?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I could not have made the question more specific. It's very simple: can the minister guarantee that no worker will be worse off?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, I think, with respect, when the minister is talking about—while I hasten not to get into the language of it—the BOOT test and aspects like that, I do think that is directly relevant because that addresses the specific question, but not in the terms you seek. You can debate that afterwards. I think the minister, on this question and the previous one, when I mentioned that, did turn to that specific nature and was directly relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The fact is that every Australian is better off when we have a stronger economy. Every Australian is better off when we have more jobs being created. Every Australian will have more job security when there are more job opportunities across the Australian economy. Every Australian will be better off in terms of the services that can be provided, in terms of the potential for wages growth, when we have the highest possible rates of employment in this country. That's what we are seeking to do right across our whole economic performance.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Forestry Industry</title>
          <page.no>48</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Ruston, the Minister representing the Minister for Agriculture, Drought and Emergency Management. The Australian forestry industry is the ultimate renewable industry, growing raw materials that make the fibre based products we use each and every day. The industry contributes 6.6 per cent to the nation's manufacturing output. Can the minister outline the economic benefits the forestry industry delivers to regional communities, and what the Liberal-National government is doing to support our world-class forestry industry, particularly as we work to recover from the COVID-19 pandemic and build a stronger Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator McKenzie for her question and for her longstanding interest in all agriculture but particularly our amazing forests in Australia. I know Senator McKenzie knows firsthand, from growing up in a regional town in Victoria, how tremendously important our forestry sector is to our regional communities. And, Senator McKenzie, forests and trees are the ultimate renewable resource: they grow. Can I also acknowledge Senator Duniam as the assistant minister for forestry for his extraordinary work and passion in making sure that this industry continues to have the potential to grow to support the Australian economy and, most particularly, to support our regional communities, whether that be in Imbil or whether it be in Tumut. It might be in Portland; it might be in the south-east of the state, where I come from; or it might be in Bunbury, over in Western Australia. Our timber and forestry industries are an absolutely vital part of our economy and a vital part of our regional areas.</para>
<para>These timbers are sustainable. They're sustainably managed and they provide a massive amount of employment across Australia, particularly for people who are employed in the timber industry in regional areas. Fifty-two thousand Australians take home pay as a result of working directly in our timber industry. In Senator McKenzie's home state of Victoria, more than 15,000 people are directly employed in this particular industry, which is worth more than $23 billion a year to the Australian economy.</para>
<para>We acknowledged last year that the industry was heavily impacted by the season's bushfires, and this has obviously been compounded by the impact of COVID and recent export disruptions. That's why we have worked with the industry—and I acknowledge AFPA and the industry—to provide $65 million targeting support to the industry, going forward.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston. Senator McKenzie, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Absolutely, Mr President. Thank you, Minister—great news. Can you outline the significant environmental benefits that are delivered through sustainable forestry operations in Australia, and how the Liberal-National government is supporting the industry to continue to deliver these benefits to the environment globally?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, Senator McKenzie, absolutely, this government supports the development and expansion of sustainable plantation forests across Australia. Every year, 70 million new trees are planted, and these forests capture carbon, they grow jobs and they provide the timber that Australia needs, as well as being an export opportunity for this country. And we are delivering on our election commitment for the forestry sector by making it easier for plantations and farm forestry projects to generate carbon credits through the $2 billion Climate Solutions Fund. This will drive $4 billion worth of investment in emissions reduction projects in Australia. We're reducing red tape for projects located in our five regional forestry hubs to make it easier for the private sector to invest in new Australian forestry products, create jobs and reduce emissions at the same time.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKenzie, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would just like to recognise the chair of AFPA, Greg McCormack, and all the forestry workers that have been in; Sally McManus hasn't been the only one talking to real workers today in Parliament House. Can the minister outline the risks to the future growth of our world-class sustainable forestry industry and how the Liberal-National government is working to mitigate and overcome these risks?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too acknowledge the chair of AFPA, and how much I miss being their minister! The Morrison government is absolutely committed to the long-term sustainable management and conservation of our forests. That's why we have sought to extend all our regional forestry agreements, so that we can make sure we have the best mechanism in place to balance the environmental, economic and social demands of the communities and the Australian economy, and to make sure our forestry sector can play the role we know it can play in Australia's economic future but also make sure, once again, that we create those jobs, because it is about creating jobs and supporting our regional communities. RFAs are a modern way of us being able to manage our forests through increased transparency, make sure we are focused on reporting outcomes and make sure we continually review the management of our forests so that we can get the best out of our forests and maintain sustainability.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Terrorist Attack on Christchurch Masjidain on 15 March 2019</title>
          <page.no>49</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question without notice is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Birmingham. Yesterday the report of Aotearoa New Zealand's Royal Commission of Inquiry into the terrorist attack on Christchurch masjidain was released. This report makes for highly disturbing reading. It details how an Australian man was radicalised and came to commit this horrific terrorist attack. It makes clear that the terrorist, who murdered 51 people, began forming his extreme right-wing Islamophobic ideology in this country from a young age, including through engaging with online far Right groups based in Australia. While the report focuses on New Zealand, there are lessons in it for the way Australia approaches terrorism, security, online extremism and racial and religious hatred. Has the Prime Minister read the report, and how does the government intend to respond to it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Faruqi for her question on the very serious issue of the New Zealand royal commission of inquiry into the terrorist attacks on Christchurch mosques. The government is obviously aware of the report into the attacks and that it has been made public. It is a lengthy report, with 44 recommendations contained within it. Our understanding is that the New Zealand government has either agreed or agreed in principle, as part of its interim response, to the report. The New Zealand government has committed that it will deliver a final response to the report in the new year, following consultation with members of the New Zealand community.</para>
<para>Our government has a strong partnership with New Zealand when it comes to countering all forms of terrorism, including through our joint membership of the Australia-New Zealand Counter-Terrorism Committee. I give the senator—indeed, all senators—and the Australian public the commitment that our government will examine the report thoroughly, all 44 of its recommendations thoroughly and the final response of the New Zealand government to the report thoroughly, and will engage with the New Zealand government on how it is implementing the recommendations of the report and consider any and all implications for the operation of our own counterterrorism policies and practices.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, the report details the man's associations with various Australian far Right groups and his donations to extremist media organisations which have regularly been given platforms and crossed over into mainstream politics and media in Australia. Some of these groups have targeted my office and planned to disrupt events hosted by me. Is the government concerned about the normalisation of far Right politics in Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me be very clear: our government condemns terrorism in all of its forms, has no tolerance for such behaviour and has no tolerance for any form of terrorism, right-wing, extremist or otherwise. Government and law enforcement agencies are committed to addressing such forms of terrorism. This year, I am advised, extreme right-wing individuals comprised between 30 and 40 per cent of ASIO's priority counterterrorism investigative subjects. Our agencies take these issues seriously, regardless of the ideology that may be the motivating factor or otherwise. Australia's counterterrorism legislative framework is agnostic towards ideology. As with all forms of terrorism, we continue to pursue investigative activities, disruptions and prosecutions, and invite the cooperation of all Australians to assist in doing so. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Several of the recommendations of the report relate to properly criminalising hate speech and tracking hate crimes. The report acknowledges a link between hate crime and terrorism. In Australia, our hate speech laws are very narrow and we do not track hate crimes at the national level. Will the government change the law to stamp out hate speech and start tracking hate crimes properly?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I indicated in response to the primary question, we will work very closely with the New Zealand government in understanding all aspects of the report, and all aspects of the actions and implementation arrangements that New Zealand takes in relation to this report. In doing so, we'll be thorough in our assessment.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order. Senator Faruqi on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is to relevance. I asked a very specific question about hate speech laws and will the government actually change the laws to stamp out hate speech?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question contained a preamble to that specific part at the end, Senator Faruqi. I will listen carefully but I believe the minister was being directly relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para> Senator Faruqi, from my recollection, your question asked about recommendations in the report that went to matters of hate speech, and associated laws and regulations. So when I say that we will examine the report carefully, that we will work with New Zealand, that we will seek to understand the action they take in relation to implementation of recommendations, we will assess all of that against ensuring we have the strongest possible preventions, protections and disruptions available to ensure all forms of terrorism are prevented as much as possible. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Vocational Education and Training</title>
          <page.no>50</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Employment, Skills, Small and Family Business, Senator Cash. Why is the minister pushing a plan to allow people to qualify for some trades with no on-the-job training?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In response to the question, the premise of the question is false. That is not what is occurring.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Urquhart, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The National Centre for Vocational Education Research released a report last week that showed on-the-job training was critical to helping Australians get work. So why is the Morrison government doing the opposite?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, perhaps you did not listen to or understand my answer to your primary question. The premise of your question is false. I know who you've been talking to. That's fine. That's not a problem at all. The government has no plans—let me confirm—no plans to ban—</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Resume your seat please, Senator Cash. If I had to pick a voice in the chamber I would not have trouble hearing, it would be Senator Cash. There is way too much noise. I meant that as a compliment, Senator Cash! If I can't hear Senator Cash, there's too much noise in this chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government, despite what you have been told, has no plans to ban on-the-job training. In fact, we are firmly of the belief that workplace requirements are a critical part of developing the skillset required and an important element of competency based training in Australia.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Urquhart, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Given the government has presided over $3 billion in cuts from TAFE and the loss of 140,000 Australian apprentices, isn't dropping on-the-job training the latest example of the Morrison government leaving Australian apprentices, like Isobel from Tempco and John from Incat, who are up in the gallery here today, behind?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The answer to your question is no. What I'd say to both Isobel and John—I understand they met with my office today; I was unable to meet with them but I congratulate them on the work they're undertaking—is that the premise of the question is false. The government have no plans to ban on-the-job training; in fact, as I've already stated, we value workplace requirements. We believe they are critical to developing skills and an important part of competency based training in Australia.</para>
<para>But, more broadly, you've actually asked me this Quill's question—thank you; that is fantastic. What has the Prime Minister said? Vocational education and skills are at the forefront of our economic recovery from COVID-19. That is why the government is investing, this year alone, almost $7 billion, colleagues, in vocational education and training. That is why we have put in place the Supporting Apprentices and Trainees wage subsidy.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Cash, time for the answer has expired.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is why we have put in place the boosting apprentices—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Cash, time for the answer has expired, thank you.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Cash interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Please resume your seat, Senator Cash. Please resume your seat. Senator Cash! I was calling on the minister to resume her seat, and I have been ignored much more while calling for order generally across the chamber. Ministers should actually resume their seat when I say time has concluded.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Procurement</title>
          <page.no>51</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Defence, Senator Reynolds. Can the minister provide an update on the benefits of our involvement in the global F-35 program to Australia and Australian industry?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I sincerely thank Senator Hughes for that question. Sometimes in this job you have challenging days and sometimes you have simply great days, and today is certainly a great day. The global F-35 Joint Strike Fighter program is delivering the most capable and best value fifth-generation multirole fighter to meet Australia's air power needs. The JSF's introduction into service is progressing well; in fact, I'm delighted to say it is progressing very well. Of the 72 aircraft being acquired, 30 are already in service in Australia, and we have three more on the way. This capability will be the backbone of Air Force's future air combat operations.</para>
<para>This important program is now also delivering unprecedented economic opportunities for businesses right across our nation—opportunities that Australian companies and Australian workers are seizing. This morning I announced that Australian companies have signed contracts worth an astonishing $2.7 billion under the global Joint Strike Fighter program. Over 50 Australian companies have participated in the program to date, and it is expected to support around 5,000—that's 5,000—Australian jobs by 2023 alone. Australian-made parts are now installed on every single Joint Strike Fighter globally—that is, 600 aircraft so far and counting. Whenever a Joint Strike Fighter takes to the sky anywhere around the world, it does so relying on Australian know-how.</para>
<para>This has not just happened; this is a very deliberate part of the Morrison government's plan to strengthen Australian sovereign defence industry. We have created the opportunity for Australian companies to contribute to a large global program for many decades to come.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hughes, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline how the Morrison government is strengthening Australia's air combat capabilities to build a stronger and safer Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Morrison government is investing more than $270 billion to deliver a more potent, agile and capable Australian Defence Force. This includes $65 billion over the next decade to deliver next-generation potent air capabilities. This includes improved weapons systems with longer range and also, importantly, greater survivability. Combining new and existing aircraft with remotely piloted and autonomous systems will also provide increased lethality and survivability. Our collaboration with Boeing on the Loyal Wingman is a prime example. This is the first military aircraft to be designed and built in Australia in more than 50 years. These investments are ensuring that Air Force will continue to have the technologically advanced strike and air combat capability it requires, which is increasingly being built and supported right here in Australia by Australians.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Reynolds. Senator Hughes, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUGHES</name>
    <name.id>273828</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister outline the benefits to workers in the Hunter region of the Morrison government's investment in an advanced air combat capability as part of the economic comeback from COVID-19?</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator REYNOLDS</name>
    <name.id>250216</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm really sorry that those opposite are not really paying attention, because this is about Australian jobs and Australian industry for the long term. This morning, Minister Price and I announced a wonderful example of how our Australian defence industry, supported by this government, is creating more jobs for Australian workers and supporting our comeback from COVID-19.</para>
<para>BAE Systems recently hired 25 former Jetstar employees, following the closure of Jetstar's aircraft maintenance facility near Newcastle. These highly skilled recruits have commenced training to help sustain Australia's growing fleet of Joint Strike Fighter and Hawk Lead-in Fighter aircraft. I was so happy to meet two of them this morning, Ben and Colin. These technical workers have been retained in the Hunter aviation industry. They're now helping Defence build its sovereign sustainment capability, as our fleet continues to grow. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Welfare</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. Yesterday, on <inline font-style="italic">Sky News</inline>, Senator Canavan said this about the cashless debit card:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I think it's now time we take the evidence on board and roll it out across the country.</para></quote>
<para>Does this reflect the Morrison government's position?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Dodson for his question. Senator Dodson, you would be aware, as we are all aware, that we are currently debating a bill that is before this parliament that seeks to deal with existing trial sites and also income management recipients in the Northern Territory and Cape York. Nowhere in that bill does it contain the intention for any new communities or any new participants to be added to the cashless debit card system or income management across Australia.</para>
<para>So, Senator Dodson, I can assure you that the bill that is before you at the moment in this place is an absolute reflection of the existing policy of this government in relation to income management and the cashless debit card. But it does give me the opportunity—and I'm sure I'm going to have many more opportunities before this day is out—to put on the record that the cashless debit card is a superior piece of technology that allows people on the card to go about their daily lives, unlike people on the BasicsCard, and use this piece of technology in the same way as anybody else sitting in this chamber would use the credit card or debit card that is currently in their wallets.</para>
<para>I acknowledge the extraordinary work of Senator O'Sullivan and the team of people that he's been working with over recent months to make sure that that technology is developed in such a way that the user experience for people that are on the card is absolutely seamless and that the card appears to be no different and acts no differently from any other card that you or I would have in our wallets. I acknowledge that we will continue to work to make sure that we provide the very best technology to support Australians who need our help.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston. Senator Dodson, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In February this year, Minister, in relation to the cashless debit card, you said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The reason we haven't done it in the major cities is because we need to deal with the technology issue, which we are now close to resolving—</para></quote>
<para>and you've just said that you've fixed all of that up. You also said that it does need to have a broader application. Can the minister confirm that the government's policy of making the cashless debit card permanent in the current trial sites and the Northern Territory is just the first stage of the national round-up? <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Dodson, for your question. No, I can't confirm that, because that is not the case. But one of the very important things about the changes that we're proposing at the moment is to make sure that we do use technology to provide assistance to Australians to make sure that they have the very best opportunity to be able to use this card in the way that you and I use the cards that are in our wallet, including some of the technological advances that Senator O'Sullivan has been working with, like putting the card on your phone, for example, so that you're able to swipe it. As I mentioned in response to the question that I was asked by Senator McCarthy, we are also working with the Traditional Credit Union in the Northern Territory so that we can get a very good understanding as part of them becoming, hopefully, the issuer of the card going forward for people in the Northern Territory who will be on the cashless debit card.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Dodson, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister said the cashless debit card is 'commending itself for wider application'. Can the minister give an ironclad guarantee that the cashless debit card will never, ever be expanded?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Dodson for his question. Clearly, Senator Dodson has not heard what I said in my response to the primary question, which is that the policy of this government is reflected in the bill that is before this chamber as we stand here now.</para>
<para>But we need to be really careful that we actually tell the truth and put the facts on the record when we discuss this card. There are many misconceptions that are spread around about this card, and there was an attempt to perpetrate another one in this place a few minutes ago with the question from Senator McCarthy. I've now had the opportunity to read the ASIC letter that has been sent to Mr Stephen Jones MP, the shadow Assistant Treasurer, and I'll just read you a line out of that letter:</para>
<quote><para class="block">However, section 12DL does not prohibit the unsolicited <inline font-style="italic">issue</inline> of the debit card, or a deposit account to which the debit card is linked …</para></quote>
<para>I think that categorically states the answer.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask that further questions be placed on notice.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>53</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Welfare</title>
          <page.no>53</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Families and Social Services (Senator Ruston) to a question without notice asked by Senator McCarthy today relating to the cashless debit card.</para></quote>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator McCarthy, please resume your seat. Senators, order! Senator McCarthy has the right to be heard in silence.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Madam Deputy President. I pick up on the minister's response, and clearly this has been the problem with the government: it's about picking and choosing the things that work for you in the sloppiness of how this government has brought forward the CDC legislation. You've got a $2.5 million evaluation report which you have not provided to this Senate. You had said you would do it before the legislation went through to the House, and you did not.</para>
<para>Let me go to the ASIC letter, and we are going to dissect this, Minister. You said in your response to my question that you did not agree with my interpretation of this letter, and I think it's important to restate this. You said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… it's clear that directing someone's social security payment to the cashless debit card does not fall under the provision which Senator McCarthy referred to.</para></quote>
<para>Well, I would very much like to see the advice that you received from the department on that, because it certainly is not the advice from what ASIC says. Minister, you have not answered the questions of legality raised by this ASIC advice, because you have not done your job properly.</para>
<para>As well as the complete lack of independence evidenced from 13 years of income management in the Northern Territory and years of trials in places like Ceduna and the Kimberley, we now know there are significant questions about the legal operations of this legislation—perhaps a robodebt 2 issue right here for this government. Section 12DL of the Australian Securities and Investments Commission Act 2001, the ASIC Act, provides that a person must not send another person a credit card or a debit card except in specified circumstances. These circumstances are, in summary, where the person who will be liable to the issuer of the card in respect of its use has requested the card, or in renewal or replacement of, or in substitution for, a card that has been so requested or previously used for a purpose for which it was intended to be used. These circumstances do not apply to the cashless debit card, which is mandatory, not voluntary, and which the government wants to impose on more than 23,000 Territorians.</para>
<para>Labor wrote to ASIC last week asking for their advice on this legislation, which will lead to thousands of cards being sent to recipients who have not asked for them. They have not asked for them. That is the key to this response from ASIC. The advice from the Australian Securities and Investments Commission about the government's rollout of the cashless debit card shows there are unresolved legal issues with the legislation. In the letter they sent in response to our questions, the ASIC acting chair, Karen Chester, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">If the eligible recipient has not given a written request for the card to be sent to them, there may potentially be a contravention of section 12DL.</para></quote>
<para>For the benefit of senators, the letter goes on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In 2016, an application was made to ASIC for a no-action letter in relation to the initial trial of the CDC program.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A no-action letter granted by ASIC is a statement by ASIC that it does not propose to take action in relation to the contravention or possible contravention identified in the letter in the circumstances set out in the letter. It does not affect the operation of the law itself, and does not affect the rights of other persons to take legal action in relation to a contravention of the law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ASIC does not have the power to grant an exemption from s12DL of the ASIC Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The 2016 no-action letter granted by ASIC was specified to apply to the trial of the program. Accordingly, it does not cover the proposed ongoing and broader program to be enabled by the Bill.</para></quote>
<para>So ASIC advises that the issues mainly rest with the sending of the cards. This is a key issue for potential recipients of the card in the Northern Territory and other remote areas. In many cases they would have to travel hundreds of kilometres to get to the nearest Centrelink office to stand in line and sometimes wait for days to be issued with the grey card. What do this minister and this government expect those people to do—just have no card? None of you have any idea of the realities of life for people on welfare. To get around this issue with section 12DL for the original trial, Indue, with the backing of the Department of Social Services, was granted a no-action letter by ASIC. But it is illegal to send these cards.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It gives me great pleasure to stand here and take note of the answers given by Senator Ruston this afternoon on the cashless debit card. It's no secret to those in this place that I've been involved with the cashless debit card since before it was even an idea that the government was considering, because I was part of the Minderoo Foundation, and it was an idea that came out of the Forrest review, based on consultation with people in communities across Australia—in particular, the trial communities that were first initiated through the cashless debit card: the communities of Ceduna in South Australia, and Kununurra and Wyndham in the East Kimberley. What we heard from people up there was the need for a circuit-breaker to help these communities deal with the very devastating effects of chronic alcohol and drug abuse. People come into this place—and I have been listening to the debate on this topic today—and speak of many different things about the card. They say, 'The people in these communities actually don't really even know what it is that they're wanting; they wouldn't actually know what would be good for them.' That's essentially what they're coming in here and saying. Frankly, it is probably the height of paternalism to say that to people in the communities that have the cashless debit card, that actually want the cashless debit card, that called on it in the first place to help them deal with some of the issues. None of them ever thought that it would be the solution to all of their problems—none of them. What they wanted was a circuit-breaker to help them deal with the challenges that they were facing as a community. This government has been supporting those communities in that endeavour, and it is demonstrating success across those communities.</para>
<para>I want to deal with some facts, because there haven't been a lot of facts brought out. There have been a lot of feelings brought out, but not a lot of facts. The cashless debit card is a Visa card. It works like a Visa card that any other bank customer in Australia would have, with two exceptions: that card cannot be used at liquor stores or pubs and it can't be taken to an ATM to withdraw cash. It will work at the 900,000 merchants that have signed on that have an EFTPOS machine operating in their retail outlet. It also works online. You can pay your bills online. You can, actually, buy second-hand furniture because you can use things like PayPal. You can link your card to those sorts of services to be able to pay for things.</para>
<para>Throughout COVID, we have seen a dramatic acceleration in the use of contactless payments. More and more, Australians are going about their days using contactless payments, cashless payments, all the time. In fact, many people will say that they have cash in their wallet but it's something they don't even go to use any more. It used to be the case that you almost felt guilty using your card to buy a $4 or $5 coffee, because it was an inconvenience to the retailer. But now it's commonly accepted. The cashless debit card is operating on the Visa platform and works just like any other card. It just won't work at a liquor store. But, if somebody does want to buy alcohol, to enjoy a drink for a celebration or with friends over a meal, over dinner, they can, because there is 20 per cent that's available through their standard bank account. Lots of feelings are given as evidence from the other side of this chamber, but not a lot of facts have actually been brought out here today.</para>
<para>I often speak about the impacts on the ground and I'm told, 'Well, they're just anecdotes that are being used.' When you talk to Foodland in South Australia, in Ceduna, they say they're now selling more fresh fruit and vegetables and have actually got less theft, less shoplifting, happening in their store. Yet those opposite say we can't use that because it's just an anecdote. But all the anecdotes about people feeling stigmatised, people feeling targeted, are somehow more acceptable than the senior sergeant of police in Kununurra saying that this card is actually having a very positive effect— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also take note of answers to questions today asked by Senator McCarthy and Senator Dodson. I've listened very closely to the debate that we've had regarding the cashless debit card over the last couple of days and I'm more convinced than ever that the government's trying to roll out the cashless debit card on a more permanent basis is the wrong move for the individuals concerned and for the regions in which the cashless debit card will be entrenched if the government gets its way.</para>
<para>What Senator McCarthy was highlighting in her question today is that there is serious doubt over the government's capacity to even roll out the cashless debit card, even if it were to get its legislation through this chamber. What the letter from ASIC shows, very clearly, is that the government has previously been given dispensation by ASIC to roll out the cashless debit card and to send it to people in a way that would ordinarily breach legislation because, quite rightly, banks and other credit providers are ordinarily prevented from rolling out credit cards willy-nilly to people.</para>
<para>The government has previously been given dispensation to dispatch the cashless debt card in a way that would not normally be permitted but that was done on a trial basis only. We on this side don't dispute the fact the government previously had power to send cashless debit cards to individuals in those trial regions. What we dispute is that it continues to have the power to do so on a more permanent basis, because we've seen no evidence whatsoever that the government has received a similar dispensation from ASIC for what it seeks to do into the future. So if the government doesn't have the power to send the cashless debit cards to new participants in the scheme in the regions that are affected, then how does it actually expect this is going to work?</para>
<para>Some of the areas in which the cashless debit card has been operating so far and the government wants it to continue on a more permanent basis are some of the most remote places in this country. There aren't shops that people can walk into and there aren't courier services that drop things off. In a big city, you get something dropped off if you order it on eBay. I've spent a bit of time in Cape York and I know a little bit about Cape York. This may be news to you, but courier drivers are not in the habit of rolling up to the doors of people in Cape York to drop off a cashless debit card or something ordered on eBay or anything else, so there is real doubt over the government's ability to roll out these debit cards, even if it actually manages to get this legislation through. So I'd ask some of the more sensible voices in this government to have a look at the legislation and quickly work out whether they can even do what they want to do.</para>
<para>That leaves aside the issues of whether the cashless debit card is a good idea at all, and I will have a bit more to say about that in the debate on this bill later today. But the fundamental point to be made—and a number of my colleagues have done this in the debate—is there is no evidence whatsoever that backs up what the government is seeking to do. This is an ideologically driven exercise from the government, which wants to take away from unemployed people, particularly First Nations people, the capacity to make their own decisions about how they spend their money and, instead, impose the heavy hand of government in what people can do, which is a very surprising thing for a government that claims to be all about small government to actually want to do. The practical effect of the cashless debit card is that it is racially discriminatory because it overwhelmingly applies to First Nations people. It is flawed and without evidence. The so-called research the government has provided to back up its arguments doesn't stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever, and there is a plethora of research which has been published by academic and other experts to show the cashless debit card does not work. It's not too late for the government to retreat. It should reconsider what it's doing, it should drop this legislation and it should drop the cashless debit card altogether.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a pleasure to rise to take note of the responses given by Minister Ruston in response to questions today, although I regret I may not quite do the topic such justice as my good colleague Senator O'Sullivan, who, I know, is incredibly passionate about the cashless debit card; indeed, he just spoke very passionately about it. I know Senator O'Sullivan has worked extensively in this space, both in his career prior to coming to this place and as a senator for Western Australia, to ensure that we get this policy right. He and many other members of the Morrison coalition government have been working very carefully and closely over the last 18 or so months to ensure that we get this right.</para>
<para>One of the comments that Senator O'Sullivan made in his contribution earlier that I would like to dwell on was that the communities we're talking about were calling on the government to implement the cashless debit card in the first place. I think that that is something that has perhaps been forgotten in the debate around the legislation that we've heard and will be hearing in this chamber later on this afternoon—that it is these communities in these areas that have requested this policy, that have suggested that this policy is a way to solve some of the problems that we are seeing in these communities. Senator O'Sullivan used an expression that this cashless debit card could be a 'circuit-breaker' to help people in these communities deal with some of the social issues that are causing such great problems locally, reducing alcohol, drug consumption, gambling and these sorts of things. So I think that this policy will certainly go some way to dealing with these issues, and that can only ever be a good thing.</para>
<para>Senator Watt said in his contribution just now that—and this is something we are hearing over and over again—there is no evidence that backs up what the government is trying to do with this policy. I absolutely refute that assertion. Fortunately, in the Senate, we have these things called committees that conduct inquiries into legislation. One of the great joys of my job as a senator is that we can come to this place and take legislation that has been passed in the other place to its relevant committee, put that legislation out to the broader Australian community and have a conversation around whether or not what is in the legislation is going to deal with the issues that we're trying to rectify. Indeed, the cashless debit card legislation went to the Community Affairs Legislation Committee, chaired by my good friend and fellow Tasmanian senator Wendy Askew. That committee has conducted a number of hearings at which evidence has been presented that this policy is needed and that this policy will work.</para>
<para>I would like to quote from Robyn Nolan—the president of the National Council of Women Australia, a great Western Australian, like Senator O'Sullivan—who said at the Community Affairs Legislation Committee, earlier last month, on 5 November:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I've spoken to women and family members in the Kimberley. They are pleased with the card. They can feed their families. Kids aren't going to school hungry and, according to those working in the refuge, serious assaults and domestic and family violence reports have declined. Kids who were caught trying to steal food have also declined …</para></quote>
<para>If this isn't evidence that this policy is a good idea, will work and will make lives better for the people in these communities where the cashless debit card is being rolled out then I don't know what is. I do wonder whether or not those on the opposition benches have read the report of the Community Affairs Legislation Committee, which of course recommended that this legislation be passed by the Senate. Like I say, we have Senate committees so they can take legislation to the Australian public, ask them for ideas and feedback and make a recommendation to this place.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Workplace Relations</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SHELDON</name>
    <name.id>168275</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister representing the Prime Minister (Senator Birmingham) to a question without notice asked by Senator Sterle today relating to workplace relations.</para></quote>
<para>They said it quite clearly: they will not guarantee individuals won't be worse off. This is the whole strategy of this government—less pay and less job security at the very same time we need to build the confidence of the Australian people to spend and build the economy to make sure that businesses are successful and able to employ hardworking Australians. Don't worry about believing this from me. In 2017, the Reserve Bank said the exact same thing and made it very clear that we have to heed their warning about wages being too low.</para>
<para>Of course, what we hear from the government is more of the same: to turn around and start slashing and burning individuals' rights and individuals' wages and incomes across this country. Let's look at what they're oversighting right at this moment: pre-COVID wage stagnation, and now we see wages' share of national income, for the first time in 50 years, dropping below 50 per cent. What's their answer to workers' rights? You have to look at their history. When it came to casuals in the mines being ripped off, who did they back? The big miners—surprise, surprise, surprise! 'Let's cut workers' rights and let the miners double-dip against those hard workers'—those casual workers who were getting paid up to 40 per cent less than the permanent workers working right beside them. Of course they intervened, because they took the side they always take, against the Australian public and the Australian working community, and backed the side of the ruthless companies that exploit these sorts of workers.</para>
<para>Let's look at another example, Qantas. Do the government intervene in cases of importance, such as when it comes to Qantas? I'll quote Josh Bornstein, who took these people on before during the waterfront dispute. He took legal action to hold them to account when they conspired, using ex-military personnel from our own armed forces, to try to destroy wages in this country. Here is what Josh Bornstein said about the Qantas dispute, in a claim that's now been made on behalf of 2,000 hardworking Australians who worked at Qantas, many of whom worked in the electorate of the Prime Minister—but no noise from him, not a word of support. Josh Bornstein said: 'Any employee in any sector could suffer the same fate. We need to have a conversation in this country about companies like Qantas profiting by cannibalising workers' wages.' So why doesn't the government intervene for those hardworking Australians? Why doesn't the Prime Minister intervene for his own community? Because they're not well paid executives of highly profitable companies.</para>
<para>Of course, what the government has set up is another scenario, with their suggestions on IR and what they should be doing about the BOOT test: agreements that won't last two years but will last way beyond two years, and individual agreements that mean people can be paid less. What choice do you have when the boss says to you: 'Guess what? Take less or I'll outsource you like Qantas. I'll outsource your job to somebody who'll do it if you won't do it'? What choice is that? That's choice at gunpoint. They're economic standover tactics that this government is empowering employers to use. Of course, the government won't intervene in matters that affect the interests of hardworking Australians.</para>
<para>I want to recall a very important comment that was made by Sean, who's a baggage handler who came to this parliament, sat down in the House of Reps and listened to the Prime Minister. He said this in his plea for justice and intervention—I know he's not a big miner, so he doesn't get their ear. He said: 'I have a wife and three young girls. How can I tell my three girls that you can work hard but can be replaced by a company that will pay people less?' Well, this government is actually enshrining it. This government is getting rid of the BOOT test, which says that people cannot be worse off. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Royal Commission of Inquiry into the Terrorist Attack on Christchurch Masjidain on 15 March 2019</title>
          <page.no>57</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answer given by the Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment (Senator Birmingham) to a question without notice asked by Senator Faruqi today relating to the Christchurch Mosque murders.</para></quote>
<para>This was a terrorist attack committed by an Australian man who, the report says, was driven by an extreme right-wing Islamophobic ideology. Any denial or obfuscation of this simple fact is an insult to the targets.</para>
<para>I cried as I read the report yesterday. I cried for the innocent Muslims who were brutally murdered by the terrorist. I cried for the survivors who lost their loved ones forever, overwhelmed by the courage of the community who had been through so much. And I cried as I read the greeting 'assalaam alaikum' at the start of the report and words like 'masjidain' and 'shuhada' sprinkled through the report—words that resonate with the Muslim community, words that show empathy and respect for them. The report's findings and recommendations should be taken with utmost seriousness in Australia, where the terrorist has lived for most of his life. There are lessons here for the way we approach the many intersecting issues. I urge the Prime Minister to engage with the Australian Muslim community and carefully interrogate what needs to change in Australia.</para>
<para>The report confirms the terrorist engaged with known far Right and white supremacist groups in Australia, some of which remain active in various forms. Two of these groups forced me to cancel an antiracism event in Newcastle last year due to their planned disruption. Far Right extremism is not only still present in this country; it is growing. Just in the last few minutes, we found out that an 18-year-old man from New South Wales has been arrested today. He had been accessing extreme right-wing material online, including on how to make bombs. He was supportive of the Christchurch mosque massacre and openly racist. If this isn't a wake-up call, I don't know what will be.</para>
<para>This country is in complete denial of these problems that we face. Let's be clear that there is no way in hell that we are going to be able to properly combat the racism in our country without acknowledging there are clear and ongoing links between the toxic far Right and elements of our mainstream media and parliamentary politics. To take one example, it was revealed in the report that the terrorist made donations to numerous media organisations affiliated with people who are in our media class and are given a platform by Australian media outlets. In 2017, the terrorist made donations to media organisations run by or linked to two individuals—Lauren Southern and Stefan Molyneux—who came to Australia in mid-2018 on a speaking tour and participated in many sympathetic interviews with the right-wing media, in particular, <inline font-style="italic">Sky News</inline>. Later in 2018, Senator Hanson moved, in this very chamber, her infamous motion claiming that 'it's okay to be white'. As was noted back then, the slogan has a history of use in far Right and white supremacist circles. But it shot to attention in Australia by being worn on a T-shirt by Lauren Southern as she touched down here in 2018. She is now a regular <inline font-style="italic">Sky News</inline> contributor and lives in Australia.</para>
<para>We can grow used to it after years of frustration, but hearing some of the contributions in this place today and earlier, there is an absurd amount of racist drivel that is spouted without sanction or accountability. There are people in this chamber who are not called out for their racism and bigotry, but those of us who highlight it are quickly called to order. With this attitude prevailing in our national parliament, we have little hope of tackling racism. I've said this before and I will say it again: Australia is yet to reckon with being the country that raised the Christchurch killer. The government must take responsibility for the rise in far-Right extremism reported by ASIO.</para>
<para>All of the report's recommendations should be taken seriously and considered in Australia. We should have strong hate speech laws and dedicate resources to tracking hate crimes properly. I also welcome the report's recommendation to dedicate more government resources to challenging racism and promoting equality. Australia needs a national antiracism campaign to combat and eradicate prejudice and bias. There is much to consider over the coming months, days and weeks. My thoughts are with the survivors and the families of those targeted as they process the release of this disturbing report.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>58</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That today:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) any proposal pursuant to standing order 75 not be proceeded with;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) after formal motions or at 4.30 pm, whichever is earlier, the message from the House of Representatives relating to the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020 be reported and consideration of the bill have precedence over all other business for one hour, at which time the questions on all remaining stages be put;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) paragraph (b) operate as a limitation of debate under standing order 142; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) after conclusion of consideration of the bill, the Senate return to the routine of business at the point of being interrupted, including any formal motions not reached.</para></quote>
<para>And I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the question be now put.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:39]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>41</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>9</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the motion moved by Senator Birmingham to rearrange the business of the Senate be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:42]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>41</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>9</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The change in business has been adopted. Until 4.30 pm senators will proceed with the routine of business.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PETITIONS</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>PETITIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Medicare</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>60</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation, I give notice of my intention at the giving of notices on the next sitting day to withdraw notices of motion proposing the disallowance of three legislative instruments as set out in the list circulated in the chamber.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on any proposal at the request of any senator. There being none, I shall now proceed to the discovery of formal business.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Finance and Public Administration References Committee</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Reference</title>
            <page.no>64</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Ayres, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following matter be referred to the Finance and Public Administration References Committee for inquiry and report by 30 June 2022:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The planning, construction and management of the Western Sydney Airport project, with particular reference to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) probity planning and management, risk assessment frameworks and management;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) land acquisition and related leases, including transactions related to the Leppington Triangle;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the role and performance of WSA Co Limited;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) site preparation, including the realignment of the Northern Road;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) environment and heritage management;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) community engagement;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) transport links and supporting infrastructure;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) training and employment; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) any related matters.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That consideration of the business before the Senate on Wednesday, 3 February 2021 be interrupted at approximately 5 pm, but not so as to interrupt a senator speaking, to enable Senator Small to make his first speech without any question before the chair.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>64</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work Amendment (Ten Days Paid Domestic and Family Violence Leave) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <a href="r6646" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work Amendment (Ten Days Paid Domestic and Family Violence Leave) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>64</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator McAllister, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the Fair Work Act 2009, and for related purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Amendment (Ten Days Paid Family and Domestic Violence Leave) Bill 2020</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>65</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table the explanatory memorandum and seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">The Fair Work Amendment (Ten Days Paid Domestic and Family Violence Leave) Bill 2020 will amend the <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009</inline> to improve the existing entitlement in the National Employment Standards from five days unpaid domestic and family violence leave to ten days paid domestic and family violence leave.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It's a needed much reform. Every week in Australia, one woman is killed by her current or former partner. One in three Australian women have experienced physical violence since the age of fifteen. The majority of women who have experienced intimate partner violence are employed, with 1 in 10 taking time off work to due to violence from a current partner, and 1 in 5 from a former partner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Businesses have reported on the impact of family and domestic violence on their employees. In 2016, the National Retail Association estimated that for the period 2014/15, almost 45,000 women working in the retail industry experienced some form of family or domestic violence, costing the industry approximately $62.5 million per annum in lost productivity, absenteeism, and staff turnover, with a direct cost to employers of $1,404 for each instance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Council of Trade Unions estimated that it costs $18,000 and 141 hours to leave a violent relationship. Many working women resign or are terminated from their employment because they need to take the time to deal with issues that arise as a consequence of domestic abuse: finding housing, attending court and doctor's appointments, and ensuring their children have the support they need.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This situation puts women fleeing violence in a precarious position: many face the unacceptable choice between fleeing to safety or staying in a job. No woman should be forced to make this decision.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the prevalence of family and domestic violence in Australia – and its impact on employment and the economy – there is an urgent need to support working women to flee violence and keep themselves and their children safe.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 13 September 2018, the Government introduced Fair Work Amendment (Family and Domestic Violence Leave) Bill 2018to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work Act 2009</inline> to include an entitlement to five days of unpaid family and domestic violence leave in the National Employment Standards.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Five days unpaid leave is simply not adequate in supporting women to flee violence. For women employed full-time, leave entitlements are used quickly, and for the 2 million Australian workers who are employed casually, over half of whom are women, there are no paid leave entitlements to rely on at all.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill allows victim-survivors of family and domestic violence to access ten days of paid leave so that they do not have to stop working, thereby ensuring their economic independence and job security which will support them to leave violence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The existing domestic and family violence leave entitlement will be improved by providing paid leave and doubling the period that can be taken in a 12-month period of employment. This will strengthen the existing entitlement and align the NES with the practices of many Australian employers, that already provide paid leave to employees who are experiencing domestic and family violence and need to respond within the ordinary hours of work.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Paid domestic violence leave has the support of the Australian Council of Trade Unions, the Law Reform Commission, the Australian Human Rights Commission and frontline family and domestic violence services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Paid domestic violence leave will contribute to a cultural and attitudinal change to family and domestic violence that is urgently needed to eliminate it from our community.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>66</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Domestic and Family Violence</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) 10 December 2020 is the last day of the United Nations' 16 Days of Activism, recognising violence against women as one of the world's most persistent violations of human rights,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the 2020 theme, 'Fund, Respond, Prevent, Collect', calls for funding for frontline family and domestic violence (FDV) services, investment in prevention programs, and data collection regarding the scale of the crisis, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) in Australia:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(A) 50 women have been killed by violence in 2020,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(B) no national government toll reports women killed by violence in real time,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(C) 1 in 3 women have experienced physical violence and, on average, one woman is murdered every week by her current or former partner,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(D) women are nearly three times more likely than men to experience intimate partner violence and 2.5 times more likely to be hospitalised from FDV,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(E) young women, women with disabilities, and First Nations women are more likely to experience violence, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(F) demand for FDV services has risen significantly during COVID-19; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) recognise violence against women as a national security crisis, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) fully fund FDV and prevention services so all those seeking safety can get the help they need.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Domestic and family violence is a scourge, and its impact is horrific. This government swiftly committed $150 million to the domestic-violence-specific COVID-19 support package, now fully distributed to states and territories. This funding is on top of the $340 million the Commonwealth had already invested in the fourth-action-plan initiatives and the new ongoing 1800RESPECT funding in the 2020-21 budget. On the international day for the elimination of violence, the government also announced the three new providers of specialised family violence services in the Northern Territory.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation recognises the scourge of family and domestic violence that does not discriminate against women or men. As identified in heterosexual, same-sex relationships, physical altercations between couples are not a matter of power imbalance. At a time when society continually seeks equality, whether that be in wages or employment, this motion fails to recognise the need for equal frontline funding for men's and women's domestic violence programs. Until this chamber acknowledges the hurt of domestic violence experienced by both sexes, One Nation will not support this motion.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Waters be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:51]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>40</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>2</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Hanson, P (teller)</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>COVID-19: Small Business</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I add as co-sponsors of the motion Senators Brockman and Van. I, and also on behalf of Senators McKenzie, Canavan, McDonald, McMahon, Dean Smith, Brockman and Van, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) the negative impact necessary COVID-19 restrictions have had on small businesses across the country,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) that many small businesses in regional Australia had already been impacted by droughts, floods and bushfires, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) the impact border restrictions had on small businesses in border communities;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) commends:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) small business owners for establishing COVID-safe practices in their workplaces, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) Australians who have chosen to buy local products throughout the year; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) calls on Australians who can to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) buy local and if possible Australian made this Christmas, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) visit regional Australia, especially border communities and areas impacted by bushfires, droughts and floods this summer.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>67</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Amendment (Regional Forest Agreements) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>67</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <a href="s1286" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Amendment (Regional Forest Agreements) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>67</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act to amend the <inline font-style="italic">Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999</inline>, and for related purposes.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Rice interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, what did you just say, Senator Rice? I'll take that interjection. She said 'killing animals', Mr President.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rice, you're really not being helpful—really! There was no need for that in an area of formal business that we don't normally have interjections in, with the courtesies of allowing senators to introduce bills. I'm sure you would not like the favour returned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>68</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the explanatory memorandum and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">The Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Amendment (Regional Forest Agreements) Bill 2020 will support Australian forest harvesters who operate under Regional Forest Agreements by clarifying the exemption of these agreements from Part 3 of the <inline font-style="italic">Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 </inline>('the EPBC Act').</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will affirm and clarify the Commonwealth's intent regarding Regional Forest Agreements to make it explicitly clear that forestry operations in a Regional Forest Agreement region are exempt from Part 3 of the EPBC Act, and compliance matters are to be dealt with through the state regulatory framework.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendment proposed by the Bill is a simple one that removes only eight words from the EPBC Act, and from a similar provision in the <inline font-style="italic">Regional Forest Agreements Act 2002</inline>, and by doing so it removes much greater ambiguity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I introduce this Bill to make changes to the EPBC Act following the recent finding of Justice Mortimer's Federal Court decision in <inline font-style="italic">Friends of Leadbeater</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic">s Possum Inc v VicForests</inline> (No 4) [2020] FCA 704 that logging operations in certain areas of forest in Victoria's Central Highlands failed to comply with the Victorian Code of Practice for Timber Production, a requirement under the Regional Forest Agreement, and therefore that the exemption under the EPBC Act no longer applies.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The decision of Justice Mortimer has created ambiguity with respect to the provision of the EPBC Act that this Bill seeks to amend. This must be addressed expeditiously or else we will see continued uncertainty for forestry operations and the thousands of people employed by the industry. We could also see some people use this finding to disrupt legal, sustainable forestry operations not only in Victoria but other states and therefore require forestry operations to seek EPBC Act approval. This would create further congestion in the application pipeline.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">While rare, minor breaches of timber harvesting regulations occur on occasion, but it would be completely impractical to have those forestry operations cease to be covered by the exemption from Part 3 of the EPBC Act and require they seek approval under the EPBC Act – where approvals can take years – because of minor breaches. The Regional Forest Agreement framework never intended this to be the case.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I grew up in a logging town and I can tell you: the Australian forestry industry is a brilliant one. They produce the raw materials that are turned into the products we use in all aspects of our daily lives. Timber is a truly clean, green, sustainable and well-managed resource.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Around 70 million trees are planted every year by the forestry industry, which is the equivalent of two seedlings for every Australian. All of Australia's commercial forest operations covered by RFAs are certified compliant with world's best sustainable forest management practices, and for comparison, the global average is 8 per cent. Only 8 per cent.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The industry is one of Australia's largest manufacturing industries; it is economically strong, employing around 80,000 hardworking people across the value chain and contributing more than $24 billion of economic turnover to our economy each year. A further 100,000 people are employed in jobs supported through flow-on economic activity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, the industry is continually targeted by environmental demonstrators and Justice Mortimer's ruling will expose many more operations to be attacked by these radicals.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is why this Bill is so important to protect our forestry operations. It will give job security to the almost 200,000 people who are employed directly and indirectly by the industry and it will ensure forestry operations conducted under Regional Forest Agreements are given the certainty they need: that they are exempt from Part 3 of the EPBC Act and compliance matters will be dealt with through the state regulatory frameworks.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As we focus on securing our nation's sovereignty in this post-COVID world, we as a government must do all that we can to support already strong industries, like forestry, to contribute to our nation's recovery from the pandemic. The economic success of this sustainable industry makes it an obvious industry to back, and that is what this Bill does.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economic growth, increased jobs, and production of sustainable fibre products in regional Australia is a triple-whammy win for our nation's recovery. It is the number of jobs that will indicate how we succeed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">By supporting this Bill, we are saying to industry "We back you!". This Bill is for the harvest and haulage workers, sawmill and paper mill workers, and thousands of workers in regional towns anxious about whether they will have employment next year. That's not a way to spend Christmas, especially after the year we have had.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is also for the environmental dissidents who swing at this green industry any chance they can. It beggars belief how anyone can attack such a sustainable industry that contributes the benefits I outlined earlier in this speech.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is brutal for those employed in the industry who are doing the right thing, day in day out, conserving our environment and harvesting raw material for our fibre products - using world's best, sustainable practices.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">By not making this simple amendment to the EPBC Act, there will be unnecessary and avoidable delays in planned harvesting operations that are already subjected to significant environmental planning, and arduous approvals processes that will become further clogged should there be increased applications.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Independent Review of the EPBC Act Interim Report by Professor Graeme Samuel recommended addressing this uncertainty. The report also made it clear that under a regional model of empowering the states, the oversight functions would be the responsibility of the states through accredited frameworks, stating "as occurs with Regional Forest Agreements".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Unless this uncertainty is removed as soon as possible, there will be more legal challenges, and more uncertainty.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">My Bill to amend the EPBC Act does nothing more than seek to remove uncertainty from the intersection of the EPBC Act and the Regional Forest Agreements, and reinstate the original drafters' understanding of how that works.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is our duty as federal lawmakers to help by removing the ambiguity. It is also our role to give people confidence, and this amendment will do that for the hundreds of thousands of Aussies who make their livelihoods in our amazing forestry industry.</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>69</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tasmanian Handfish</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the chamber that Senators Bilyk, Urquhart, Brown and Polley will also sponsor this motion. I, and also on behalf of Senators Whish-Wilson, Bilyk, Urquhart, Brown and Polley, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the Tasmanian smooth handfish (Sympterichthys unipennis) is the world's first marine bony fish to be declared extinct by the International Union for Conservation of Nature,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the remaining Tasmanian handfish are the most threatened marine fish in the world,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the 42 juvenile red handfish hatched and raised from eggs at the Institute for Marine and Antarctic Studies (IMAS), Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) and Seahorse World and released into the wild likely doubles the number of red handfish in remaining populations near Hobart,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) the invasive long-spined sea urchin (Centrostephanus rogersii) is a key factor in the decline of handfish populations,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) the spread of the invasive long-spined sea urchin is threatening the biodiversity of Tasmanian reefs, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) urchin barrens are directly linked to warming waters along the east coast of Tasmania; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) acknowledges and thanks:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) researchers at the IMAS,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) researchers at the CSIRO, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) all scientists and researchers at the Handfish Conservation Project for their work on this critical conservation project.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Queensland Government: Energy</title>
          <page.no>69</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) Senator Watt's comments on 24 November 2020 that the Labor Party supports 'free' energy,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the importance of cheap electricity to a successful economy and society, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) that Queensland's Kogan Creek power station is owned by the people of Queensland; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Queensland Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) add a new turbine to their coal powered station at Kogan Creek, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) use the revenue generated by this new investment to restore maternity services in the nearby town of Chinchilla and other regional maternity wards shut down by previous Labor state governments.</para></quote>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Murray, got anything to say there, mate?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think senators are supposed to address each other by their correct title.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry; I didn't hear it.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor rejects this motion. It not only verbals me but is full of the type of half-baked theories and accusations Senator Rennick is quickly becoming infamous for. This, after all, is the senator who is convinced the Bureau of Meteorology is part of a climate change conspiracy. Not a day goes by where Senator Rennick doesn't sound more and more like Senator Roberts. The people of Queensland should breathe a sigh of relief that it is the Labor government of Premier Palaszczuk that sets Queensland energy policy rather than Senator Rennick. I think we're all starting to learn exactly why so many of Senator Rennick's colleagues roll their eyes every time he stands up to say something in the chamber.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Watt, you came perilously close to reflecting on a senator there. That's not helpful. I'm going to start being very strict about personal reflections, because it is not helpful. Senator Watt, I'm going to ask you to withdraw that reflection about other senators' behaviour in response to a senator. I do consider that to be a reflection.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Watt. It is very much appreciated.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation supports this motion. Cheap, reliable hydrocarbon fuels have led to the greatest improvement in human progress in the last 150 years. One Nation supports Senator Rennick's proposal to extend the Kogan Creek coal power plant. Climate policies and renewable subsidies have led to Australia having one of the most expensive power prices in the world and becoming more unstable. Senator Rennick's proposal is good for Queensland and good for Australia. Who could possibly vote against it?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that motion No. 933, in the name of Senator Rennick, be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:03]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>28</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>28</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australian Broadcasting Corporation</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>71</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator McGrath, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Communications, Cyber Safety and the Arts, by no later than midday on 10 December 2020, the report by Kerry Blackburn, commissioned by the Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC), in relation to the ABC's coverage of the 2019 election.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor won't be supporting this motion. We support transparency, but we won't be part of a coordinated attack on the ABC by this government, by anyone—from Senator Bragg to Minister Fletcher. We do not support this motion from Senator McGrath, who regularly seeks to undermine the national broadcaster. The ABC has statutory independence, a term that you guys don't understand, and the government must respect that independence. This motion undermines continuous improvement in election coverage at the ABC, when the ABC is the most trusted news source in Australia and a fundamental pillar of our democracy. Labor will not be part of any base, short-sighted or ideological attack that undermines our democracy.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens will not be supporting this motion. I am concerned that this is just one more step in the attack by this government—they can't help themselves—on the ABC, our public broadcaster. Australians love their ABC. They know that it is the most trusted news source. Boy, don't this lot hate it! They hate it. They are obsessed with attacking the public broadcaster, attacking the people who work there and attacking the Australians who tune in every night and all through the day to access their local news on the ABC. It is fundamental in this country that we have a public broadcaster—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>that is independent of—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Hanson-Young!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>the infiltration of this rubbish.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson-Young, if I call your name, please resume your seat when you see a colleague on their feet. Senator Birmingham.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a clear convention in this place, where leave is granted for contributions to be made in relation to motions, that that leave is granted so that a senator can explain, simply, their position—not to debate the motion. If senators are going to carry on in this manner, leave will not be granted.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order: 'carry on in such a manner?' Senator Hanson-Young was expressing a strongly held view which our party shares—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We're not going to get into a debate over this.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Waters</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and I don't think that sort of language is appropriate from the Leader of the Government in the Senate.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Everyone knows my view of this particular session of business and the farce that it has become and the limits placed on the other senators who aren't given the right to speak and explain their position, so I won't restate that. But I will say one thing. The ability to grant leave is in the hands of every single individual senator—I also note, me included, but I think it's inappropriate for me to deny it; it's tempting sometimes. Anyone can be denied leave and I don't have to say who it is. I seek the unanimous consent of the chamber. So, if any one senator decides to, that means this procedure will end. Secondly, once leave is granted, a point of order can't be raised, I'm afraid, unless there's something unparliamentary, Senator Birmingham, because leave has been granted to make a one-minute statement. There are no orders around that.</para>
<para>I would encourage people, though, to remember that the practice has been that senators do allow parties and crossbenchers to state a position—again, in the hands of all 75 other senators—and that has been done in the terms that Senator Birmingham noted: to explain rather than debate, conscious that, if you do debate, you are disallowing other senators from debating what you have asserted, which I think is unfair. This procedure works this way, and it is done by convention, not by standing order. You've finished your contribution, I gather. You have 15 seconds remaining, Senator Hanson-Young.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I've said everything I needed to say. I just want to apologise, though. I didn't see Senator Birmingham on his feet. Otherwise I would have resumed my seat.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Hanson-Young. I've had to apologise to people too, so that's fair enough. I will now put the question on the motion moved by Senator Rennick at the request of Senator McGrath, No. 934. The question is that motion No. 934 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:14]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>72</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>McKenzie, Senator the Hon. Bridget</title>
          <page.no>72</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Farrell, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (i) Senator McKenzie made a written submission to the Select Committee on Administration of Sports Grants on 29 April 2020,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (ii) since that submission was received by the committee, further evidence and public statements have raised serious questions regarding matters central to the inquiry, including the involvement of the Prime Minister and his office,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iii) Senator McKenzie has been invited to appear before the committee several times but has declined to do so, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (iv) as the former Minister for Sport, Senator McKenzie has evidence essential to the committee’s inquiry into the administration and award of funding under the Community Sport Infrastructure Grant Program; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) directs Senator McKenzie to appear in person before the committee, by no later than 12 February 2021, to answer questions.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government opposes Senator Farrell's motion. There's not been an occasion where the Senate has ordered a senator who wasn't a minister, including opposition or crossbench senators, to appear before a committee. This motion would be an unprecedented deviation from the practice in this area. On this matter, Senator McKenzie has cooperated with the Senate select committee and followed the practice by voluntarily providing the committee with a comprehensive submission.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:17</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation have always ordered accountability, not witch-hunts, within this parliament, and we have demonstrated our support of a national ICAC.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Whish-Wilson interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Whish-Wilson!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I recognise this motion risks setting a precedent, but let it be understood that One Nation's support is not predicated on attacking backbenchers. This is about holding the minister at the time accountable for their actions while in high office. A director in the private sector cannot abdicate their responsibility by stepping down, and nor should a minister. Should motion No. 937 succeed today, it might encourage the Senate to look at debating this matter further to amend the standing orders.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens are supporting this incredibly important motion so that we can hear from former Minister McKenzie, now Senator McKenzie, and learn some more information about just what went on with these sports rorts. It was a completely corrupt use of government funds to be supporting their election in 2019. It is very clear from the evidence that's been presented to the sports rorts committee that there was collusion between Senator McKenzie in her office—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Davey, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Davey</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is: can we use the correct terminology? This was not sports rorts. It was a sports grants program.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Davey, that's not a point of order. I don't think senators would like me to get into restricting terminology of debate if it wasn't strictly unparliamentary.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It was clear from the evidence that was presented to our committee—the hundreds of emails and the colour-coded spreadsheets that passed between former Minister McKenzie's office and the Prime Minister's office—that there was involvement right across the Liberal Party, right up to the level of the Prime Minister and including the Liberal Party campaign offices. It is critical that the Senate, through this committee, is able to hear from former Minister McKenzie—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Birmingham, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Birmingham</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I am mindful of your ruling before, but I do point out the conventions of the Senate that are again being abused by the Greens.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There's no point of order, Senator Birmingham. I think the point has been made, and either the cross-whips can discuss it or one of the lucky 75 can actually start denying leave. Senator Rice, have you concluded?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have concluded.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that motion No. 937 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Abetz</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr President, on a point of order: given the contribution made by Senator Rice, who is a member of the committee investigating the matters that she traversed, she has clearly already determined the matter. I'm wondering as to the appropriateness of that and whether she should now be disqualified from the committee, having predetermined the matter and having made the pronouncement that certain actions were corrupt. One would assume, therefore, that no more hearings are required, and the committee can be wrapped up.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order: the matter for determination of membership of committees is a matter for the Senate. I'm not aware of any issue in the standings orders with respect to that, Senator Abetz. I will check. It's not one that I'm familiar with that's been raised before. I'll come back to the chamber if appropriate.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:21]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>32</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>28</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Coronavirus Supplement</title>
          <page.no>74</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the Government has failed to provide certainty to millions of Australians without work about the future rate of the JobSeeker Payment and Youth Allowance,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) treating income support payments like a political football by making ad hoc and last minute announcements to changes in payment rates is unfair, impacting people's mental health and ability to plan for their futures, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) with the Government's reduction to the Coronavirus Supplement to $150 a fortnight between January and March, those on the Jobseeker Payment and Youth Allowance, including the children who are living with parents who receive the Coronavirus Supplement will be living below the poverty line during the holiday period; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to permanently increase the rate of Jobseeker and Youth Allowance as part of the Mid-Year Economic and Fiscal Outlook to ensure that people on these payments are not living in poverty.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government is extending payment of the coronavirus supplement for a further three months from 1 January 2021, at a cost of $3.2 billion, to provide additional temporary support to Australians impacted by the pandemic. The extension of the coronavirus supplement and a range of enhanced eligibility criteria within the social services system complement the $507 billion worth of direct economic and balance sheet support already committed by the government. The government's priority is to get Australians back to work, including through the JobKeeper program and the JobMaker program set out in the budget.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a one-minute statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Our policy in One Nation is to support an increase for pensions and an increase for JobSeeker as at pre February, yet we will not support this motion. JobSeeker makes the situation difficult because there are all kinds of allowances—family tax benefit A and B, rent assistance and energy allowance. This motion from the Greens puts no figure. It's undefined. We need to reform welfare and make it simple. I also point out that the Greens policies are rapidly increasing the cost of living in this country, and that is highly regressive on the poor, so we will not be supporting this policy.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Siewert be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:27]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Climate Ambition Summit</title>
          <page.no>76</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I inform the chamber that Senator Waters will also sponsor the motion. At the request of Senators McAllister and Waters, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) that the Prime Minister told Parliament on 3 December 2020 that Australia would be participating at the Climate Ambition Summit on 12 December 2020 and that 'it will be a great opportunity to correct the mistruths...that are often presented',</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) that Climate Ambition Summit co-host and COP26 President Alok Sharma has stated that 'announcements must show genuine progress from existing policies and Paris targets' and that 'there will be no space for general statements', and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) media reports that Australia does not have a confirmed speaking role at the summit; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Prime Minister to make clear whether Australia is speaking at the Climate Ambition Summit and table any correspondence with the summit organisers relating to whether Australia is speaking at the summit.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a very short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Australia has always been happy to participate in the summit and indicated our willingness to do so. So, in response to the invitation from Prime Minister Johnson and the other hosts, we welcome any opportunity to highlight Australia's outstanding record of exceeding our commitment to reduce emissions. From 2005 to 2018, we reduced emissions faster than comparable countries like Canada and New Zealand, and the latest data has us at 16.6 per cent lower than 2005 levels. The only endorsement the government seeks for its policies is that of the Australian people. At the last election, Australia voted for our practical, technology focused policies that reduce emissions while keeping the economy strong.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation opposes this motion. I for one would be happy for our Prime Minister not to speak at the Climate Ambition Summit. Our Prime Minister has demonstrated that he will not put the interests of Australia first. On the international stage, under pressure, the Prime Minister turns to jelly and adopts the agenda of the United Nations without regard for the damage it does to our Australian economy or the lives of Australians. If Australians want someone to represent and fight for Australia, may I suggest Senator Hanson or I would be happy to take the Prime Minister's place.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">An honourable senator interjecting—</inline></para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Greens won't debate me, so maybe some of their globalist masters will.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Urquhart at the request of Senators McAllister and Waters be agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [16:36]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>77</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>77</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <a href="r6658" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>77</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>77</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">This Government is committed to ensuring that the industrial relations framework continues to adapt and change to meet the needs of businesses and workers alike.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This year—more than ever—has highlighted the need for flexibility for workers and employers—and the organisations that represent them.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will give greater flexibility to constituent parts, such as branches and divisions, of amalgamated registered organisations, by providing them with an opportunity to withdraw from an amalgamation if that will better serve them and their members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will amend the <inline font-style="italic">Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act 2009</inline> (the Act) to address a current restriction in the Act—which only provides a constituent part of an amalgamated organisation with a three year window to withdraw from the amalgamated organisation—more than two years, but no later than five years, after amalgamation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">That outer time limit of five years restricts the ability of registered organisations to adapt to, and align their governance structure with, the changing needs of members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There are various circumstances that might give rise to a constituent part of an amalgamated organisation forming the view that the amalgamation is no longer serving the best interests of its members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For example, where one part of the organisation has a record of not complying with the law and this causes reputational damage for the amalgamated organisation, another part may seek to dissociate itself from those activities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In other circumstances, parts of an amalgamated organisation may have outgrown the need for amalgamation, having developed sufficiently to operate independently, efficiently and effectively. In these cases, withdrawal from amalgamation may be highly desirable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the current law, beyond the five year time limit for withdrawal, an organisation must take the extreme step of seeking deregistration of the entire amalgamated organisation, which may not even be achievable. This process would be costly and time consuming, and could leave members without representation while the organisation is deregistered and new organisations registered.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Even where deregistration is possible, the new organisation must seek registration in its own right and is not able to transfer members or assets from the previous amalgamated organisation, adding to the cost and delay.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill remedies the shortcomings of the existing framework by improving the existing process under the Act to allow constituent parts of amalgamated organisations to apply to withdraw from amalgamation beyond the five year time limit. The amendments will allow the constituent part—which could be a branch, division or part—to apply to the Fair Work Commission to hold a ballot of its members on whether to withdraw from the amalgamation in certain specified circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Commission must have regard to specified factors before approving an application for a ballot of members to vote on withdrawal from amalgamation outside the existing three year period. These are:</para></quote>
<list>whether the amalgamated organisation has a record of not complying with workplace or safety laws and any contribution of the constituent part to that record, and</list>
<list>the likely capacity of the constituent part that forms a new organisation to promote and protect the economic and social interests of its members.</list>
<quote><para class="block">Where the Commission determines that the organisation has a record of non-compliance with workplace or safety laws but the constituent part has not contributed to that record, the Commission must accept the application.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A clear short-coming of the current law means that even if the performance or actions of one part of an amalgamated organisation fall beneath proper, lawful standards, and even if other members of the organisation who do the right thing do not believe it is in their best interests to remain part of the organisation, they are not able to leave, even where the majority of its members wish to.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Within the union movement, there are clear examples where the poor conduct of one part of a union is impeding the ability of other law-abiding divisions of the union to work effectively in the interests of their members. Now constituent parts who have been amalgamated beyond the current 5 year limit will have the freedom to break away and better serve the interests of their members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also provides that, where a part successfully withdraws from the amalgamation, the membership of that part will become members of the newly registered organisation. This ensures the new registered organisation can maintain its membership and assets and its members can continue to be represented by their newly registered organisation. The Bill also sets out a process for how the rules of the amalgamated organisation and newly registered organisation are to be accommodated under the new arrangement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill makes no changes to the requirements for the members of registered organisations and their constituent parts to vote and agree to amalgamation or withdrawal from amalgamation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To ensure that the legislation is working effectively, the Bill requires a review of the operation of the amendments within two years of their commencement.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These are sensible changes that support registered organisations to function effectively and in the best interests of their members.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McALLISTER</name>
    <name.id>121628</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The bill before us, the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020, represents a commonsense, reasonable and technical amendment to the registered organisations act, specifically the provisions in the act that deal with withdrawal from amalgamation. Currently the act allows a constituent part of an amalgamated union to withdraw from the remainder of the union. It is a democratic process involving a secret ballot of the members of that part of the union seeking to withdraw from the amalgamation. The problem is that these provisions only apply between two and five years after an amalgamation. That's a narrow window and it doesn't contemplate the possibility that a demerger could happen after that time.</para>
<para>The drafters of the original legislation most probably did not foresee circumstances in which an amalgamated union might wish to withdraw from the merger after five years, but, as with any partnership, there are often very good reasons that it might be better for the partners to go their separate ways and operate independently. This bill corrects that by creating an exception to this time limitation via a new appropriateness test in clause 94A of the bill. This provision allows the Fair Work Commission to grant an application for a withdrawal ballot if certain conditions are met. These conditions guide the discretion of the Fair Work Commission. A proposed new section, 94A(2), sets out these conditions, which include whether the amalgamated organisation has a record of 'not complying with workplace safety laws and any contribution of the constituent part to that record' and the likely capacity of the constituent part, after it withdraws from the merger, to promote and protect the economic and social interests of its members.</para>
<para>If a secret ballot of members of the constituent part seeking to withdraw from the amalgamation is successful, the legislation then sets out some clear rules for how the separation takes place. It will require the applicant to file its plans for withdrawal, which include the rules of the amalgamated union and the proposed new union, the names of the respective organisations postwithdrawal and the allocation of assets and liabilities between the amalgamated organisation and the newly registered organisation. The rules set out must avoid any overlap in coverage between the demerged entities.</para>
<para>The bill also makes provisions for ballots other than postal ballots conducted by the AEC. This is to recognise that some unions are currently exempted from the requirement to use the AEC for union elections. It also recognises that a number of unions have an existing custom and practice of having attendance ballots as their preferred means of collective decision-making.</para>
<para>I note the bill provides for a review of its operation within two years of its enactment. This is a safeguard to ensure that the bill is operating in the manner intended.</para>
<para>I said at the outset that this is a sensible amendment bill that reflects the fact that some mergers have gone beyond the three-year limitation that currently exists in the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act 2009. Like the nature of work itself, trade unions change to reflect the workforce they represent. As industries grow, shrink or simply change, so does the representation of the workers in those industries. Work and workplaces are ever-evolving, and we should recognise that. A union must be relevant and able to represent its workers. We also need to recognise the principle of freedom of association, which includes a right to join or leave a group, and that right doesn't only operate within a three-year time period. As such, Labor supports the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020. This bill facilitates the expedited splitting up of amalgamated unions. Not only are the government expediting the splitting up of amalgamated unions; they're also expediting this bill through parliament. I guess that is not new—this government rushes through legislation that it doesn't want any scrutiny of or any light shone on, and it's doing it again—but shame on the Labor Party for being on a unity ticket with the government, for rushing through legislation that really has not been looked at, that really has not been interrogated and that will have a massive impact on the union movement and on workers. Here they are sitting here voting with the government, saying, 'Yes, let's push that through within the hour. No-one will see what's happened.' It's an absolute shame!</para>
<para>The government has sprung this bill on the parliament, with little warning, in a complete act of contempt for this place, the union movement and workers. This bill has implications for all workers and all unions, and it should not be rushed through parliament without proper scrutiny and proper inquiry. As with all legislation with broad implications, we need a consultation process so we are all clear on what exactly we are being asked to vote on. But we won't get that opportunity to do that today, will we?</para>
<para>All of us in this place know that the Liberal and National parties are no friends of unions and no friends of workers. That much is pretty clear. You couldn't trust the government on industrial relations as far as you could throw them. How many attempts at union busting have we seen from that lot over there over the last few years? What evidence have the government ever provided that they want to see unions succeed in protecting workers and advocating for workers' rights? If the government were actually concerned about workers and unions and their ability to organise effectively, they wouldn't be trying to push through legislation in the space of half a day on the second last day of the sitting for the year—taking the trash out.</para>
<para>This is a government that cut some of the most vulnerable workers out of JobKeeper, putting at risk not just workers and their livelihoods but also public health. This is a government that just last year tried to force through union-busting legislation that sought to make union amalgamations even harder than massive corporate mergers. They tried to put the right to strike even further out of the reach of workers. They allowed and celebrated cuts to workers' penalty rates. They weakened workers' rights to good conditions and pay protection under cover of the pandemic response legislation. And they are further entrenching insecure work. These people are the ideological children of John Howard. The government have given no indication that the Liberal and National Parties have evolved since they tried to smash the union movement and people's rights at work with their terrible WorkChoices legislation. The coalition's dearest wish is for the state to be able to interfere in the functioning and establishment of unions whenever they can. To benefit businesses and further their neoliberal politics, the government want unions to be as hobbled and powerless as possible.</para>
<para>We want to be sure that this bill is not designed to fragment the union movement and dilute the power of workers to organise and stand up for themselves against bosses. We want to ensure that any bill affecting the union movement strengthens the power of workers and results in improvement of worker pay and conditions. Unions are a vital part of our civil society. They fight for fair and safe conditions for workers and make important contributions to our democracy. As a long-time union member, I am committed to fighting for the rights of workers to organise and to protect our unions. I will be moving a Greens second reading amendment to refer this bill to inquiry for report so we can hear from the people who will be affected by this legislation and make an informed decision. There is absolutely no rush to push this bill through today or even tomorrow. We can have an inquiry. We can come back early in the next year and then we can decide, based on the information we have, whether or not we and others should support this bill.</para>
<para>Under these conditions, we will not be voting for this bill. We are not here to simply tick and flick whatever bills the government puts in front of us. We are here to make sure the bills are properly looked at. That's our job in this chamber. This is not the way laws should be made. This bill must be referred to inquiry so the Senate can do its job and ensure legislation that affects workers' lives is properly looked at. I move the Greens' second reading amendment and commend it to the Senate:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add: ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020 was introduced, debated and passed through the House of Representatives on the same day, Wednesday 9 December;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) further notes there is no urgent reason for the Bill to be rushed through Parliament;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) recognises the Bill may have implications for all unions and Australian workers and should not be rushed through without proper scrutiny; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) refers the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020 to the Education and Employment Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 4 February 2021".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020, a bill that was introduced into the House shortly after 9.30 this morning—today! And now this government is ramming it through the Senate less than nine hours later. On what is International Anti-Corruption Day, I want to point out that we have waited two years for a federal anticorruption watchdog bill. This government claims it's been too busy to get onto it. Yet, in less than one day, it's magicked up a bill that affects unions and potentially dilutes their power. It can ram that through, but it can't ram through an accountability measure that would apply to its own mob to clean up their appalling behaviour. The Senate is not a rubber stamp. This government is treating it like a rubber stamp.</para>
<para>The Greens have moved for this bill to go to a Senate inquiry. Industrial relations laws are complex at all times but particularly when they pertain to union operations and the rights of workers to organise themselves. You don't want to get this wrong. Yet this morning the House passed this bill within 41 minutes, and many of the speakers—although there weren't that many, because there were only 41 minutes to debate it—pointed out that they hadn't had time to read the bill. What an absolutely disgusting process—to force parliament to pass legislation that people haven't even read.</para>
<para>If there's a genuine sense of urgency, there can be some flexibility shown. The minister in the House was invited to speak to urgency and could give no such explanation. There is no reason why this bill is urgent. There is no reason why the Labor Party should be supporting this bill, but one wonders if they want this dirty deal over and done with so that, by the time Christmas is done and we come back in the new year, people will have forgotten about it. Perhaps that's their motivation for siding with the government to ram this legislation through without even subjecting it to a Senate inquiry.</para>
<para>That's why the Greens are moving for this bill to go to an inquiry. Perhaps this bill is innocuous, but we haven't had the chance to hear from those who've scrutinised it and from those unions who will be potentially affected by it, to know what impacts it might actually have. It is reprehensible that a parliament can introduce a law, debate it in one house, pass it, introduce it in another chamber and pass it, all in one day, without an inquiry, when it potentially has such far-reaching impacts on workers' rights and on workers' ability to organise to protect what few rights they have left after seven years of this awful government attacking them and their rights at work. So we will not be supporting this bill, and we will be urging the chamber to support our amendment to send this bill to inquiry, which is the normal process in the Senate. That's what we are here for. That is our job.</para>
<para>I'll finish off by repeating that we've waited two years for an anticorruption watchdog bill. Within less than one day, we get a union-busting bill from this awful government. Their priorities are perfectly clear.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>One Nation supports the general thrust of the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Amendment (Withdrawal from Amalgamations) Bill 2020 because it upholds the principle of freedom of association by enabling constituent parts of registered organisations that have amalgamated with other organisations to apply to the Fair Work Commission to hold a ballot of their members on whether to withdraw from the amalgamated organisation outside the current limited period of five years post amalgamation in specified circumstances. We agree with the principle of freedom of association and the right of people to withdraw from an entity. However, we want to note that, while the Labor Party and the Liberal Party have joined to push this through, we are not supportive of the abuse of parliamentary process, because we haven't had time to even look at this bill properly. We don't know if there are any hairs hidden in it or any hidden traps in it. So we would request that we be given more time to assess important bills like this.</para>
<para>We know that this is directly in response to the CFMMEU's dysfunctional mess, as its own leaders have called the CFMMEU at the moment, with, in the press, accusations of bullying by senior members of the CFMMEU. We understand this is done to enable those people to de-amalgamate, but we need more time to assess such bills. Why was it held up until today? This does not augur well for the major bills that we hope to see pretty soon and that we need to give proper consideration—bills that would talk about casuals, about compliance issues, about enterprise agreements and awards, and about greenfields agreements. This is not the way this parliament should be addressing serious matters. This is just rushing through, bulldozing through. So we want it noted that we do not like this process. While I've seen a summary of the bill, we haven't seen the details. We understand there are some safeguards, but we can't understand why the government would dump something like this on us and give us just five minutes to go through the whole bill.</para>
<para>We understand that the other bill has 111 pages and that its explanatory memorandum is up to 221 pages. I'm very concerned that the industrial relations club, which runs this country's industrial relations situation and creates problems for it to solve and perpetuate its own work, is going to further complicate the current complex, fractured, broken industrial relations regime in this country. The government has consulted on this further bill behind closed doors—a process that has not been public—and we are afraid, with good reason, that the people of Australia will be let down, that honest workers and honest employers will be let down. Small business is currently being smashed by the industrial relations club. All that is shown by pushing this bill through so quickly is that the Labor Party, the Liberal Party and the National Party are together again as the Liberal-Labor duopoly. That is not good enough for the workers of this country, honest workers who are getting screwed, and honest small businesses who cannot compete because they're lumbered. They don't have the hundreds of lawyers at their disposal. They can't afford that. Small business is being cruelled in this country by an industrial relations club: the lawyers, the courts, the Fair Work Commission, the union bosses of some of the large companies, the employer associations. They make it so complex that they create problems they can rush in as white knights and solve. This has got to stop. We have got to simplify industrial relations.</para>
<para>The government is telling us we need to pass the next bill quickly, as well. We understand the government wants to send it to committee, which is good, but the bill has not had due process in its construction, in its drafting. That and the bill before us show that the government and the Labor Party do not respect the parliamentary process. We should be scrutinising this bill to see its effect on everyday Australians, and especially on small business. We need to simplify industrial relations, to get it back to the basics. Industrial relations is, essentially, a relationship between employees and employers. That's what it is. It's about relations at work, relations in industry. What the IR club has done in this country is fracture that relationship, so employees go to union bosses or lawyers and employers are forced to go to courts and lawyers. That doesn't make a relationship. It separates and destroys a relationship. That's the fundamental thing that's wrong with industrial relations in this country. Managers can't manage, employees can't work and there are restrictions galore. We're coming out of a COVID crisis, supposedly, and the government's own restrictions, with this around our necks. When are people going to wake up in this country? Fundamentally, industrial relations is about a relationship between an employer and their employee. That's it.</para>
<para>If this is the process on this bill, we will be abstaining. We know that Labor and Liberal and the Nationals are going to get together again. We do make note that we support the de-amalgamation provisions, but we want to see the details, and we give warning that we will be scrutinising the larger bill that is coming, because if this is the way the government does its industrial relations—without adequate consultation—then all we can see is we're terrified of increased complexity which will destroy small business, destroy employees and destroy employment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, can I thank those who have contributed to the debate. The government is pleased to be making these changes to ensure that registered organisations can choose the governance structure that best represents the people they are designed to serve—their own members. We are committed to ensuring that the industrial relations framework continues to adapt and change to meet the needs of business and workers alike and that it upholds the fundamental principle of freedom of association. The bill will give greater flexibility to constituent parts such as branches and divisions of amalgamated registered organisations by providing them with an opportunity to withdraw from an amalgamation if that will better serve them and their members. It addresses a current restriction in the Fair Work (Registered Organisations) Act 2009 which only provides a constituent part of an amalgamated organisation with a three-year window to withdraw from the amalgamated organisation more than two years but no later than five years after amalgamation. That outer limit of five years restricts the ability of registered organisations to adapt to, and align their governance structure with, the changing needs of members.</para>
<para>There are numerous valid reasons why a constituent part may want to withdraw from an amalgamation beyond the five-year window. The bill remedies shortcomings in the existing framework by allowing constituent parts of amalgamated organisations to apply to withdraw from that amalgamation beyond the five-year time limit. These are sensible changes that will be reviewed within two years of commencement to ensure that they are working effectively and meeting their objective. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the Greens' second reading amendment, moved by Senator Faruqi, be agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:05]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>10</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>39</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bill be read a second time.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:08]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>83</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No amendments have been circulated, so I intend to call the minister to move the third reading, unless there's an objection.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bill be read a third time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:13]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>39</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to. <br />Bill read a third time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>84</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>84</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion relating to the consideration of legislation.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice standing in my name, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of the standing orders be suspended as would prevent me moving a motion to provide for the consideration of a matter, namely a motion to provide that a motion relating to the consideration of legislation may be moved immediately and determined without amendment or debate.</para></quote>
<para>And I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the question be put.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:20]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para><inline font-style="italic">(In division)</inline> I advise senators that, because normally they would be allowed to abstain by staying behind the rail which is now being used for seating, if they do need to abstain from a vote, if there's no-one in one of the rear advisers' boxes I will allow them to move to those as if they were moving to the rail, so their vote isn't counted. It's something we haven't encountered yet.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved by Senator Birmingham to suspend standing orders be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:25]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That a motion relating to the consideration of legislation may be moved immediately and determined without amendment or debate.</para></quote>
<para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the question be now put.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the question be now put.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:32]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that the motion moved by Senator Birmingham regarding the introduction of another motion be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:36]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BIRMINGHAM</name>
    <name.id>H6X</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That today:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the hours of meeting be 9.30 am to adjournment;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) if, by 7.20 pm, the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 has not been finally considered, the routine of business from that time be consideration of the bill only;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) if, by midnight, consideration of the bill has not been completed, the questions on all remaining stages be put without debate;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) paragraph (c) operate as a limitation of debate under standing order 142;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) divisions may take place after 7.20 pm for the purposes of the bill only; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the Senate adjourn without debate after the consideration of the bill, or when the adjournment is proposed by a minister, whichever is earlier.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is the motion moved by Senator Birmingham be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [17:39]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Small, B</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>29</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>STATEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>88</page.no>
        <type>STATEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Defence Procurement</title>
          <page.no>88</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a statement to the Senate.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to bring to the attention of the chamber a rather serious issue that all senators ought to be aware of. Most will not know the history of this, but back in 2017 the Auditor-General commenced an audit into an Army project called Hawkei. As the Auditor-General completed that projected, on around 6 September 2018, the Attorney-General intervened and—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, Senator Patrick. We should have clarified the amount of time that you're seeking.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, I've been granted leave and I'll just continue, if that's okay.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>How much time are you seeking to speak?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>When I've finished I'll resume my seat.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is that acceptable?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave has been granted, Chair.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much. I'll continue. The situation is that the Auditor-General tabled a report in the parliament, but that that report was censored by way of a very rarely used power by the Attorney-General of Australia under section 37 of the Auditor-General Act. That's the first time that section has been used in respect of censoring the Senate since the Auditor-General Act came into effect. Indeed, the previous Auditor-General Act—I'm pretty sure somewhere in the nineties was the previous time when the power was exercised. The power was exercised on the basis that the parliament should not see information in the Auditor-General's report, on the basis that it was national security sensitive and commercially sensitive.</para>
<para>I just wish to inform the chamber that I challenged that decision, and the decision has been handed down today. The Administrative Appeals Tribunal has found that the Attorney-General basically committed both a political error and a legal error in his decision. It's another example of the government being secretive and stopping this parliament from having access to information which it rightly should have access to. We are talking about an Auditor-General's report. The Auditor-General is an officer of the parliament by way of statute. Without the Auditor-General, this parliament would be denied the ability to properly examine the actions of government.</para>
<para>The Auditor-General is a really important player. He has the discretion to remove information from his reports and generally has not had any issues in the period in which he, the current Auditor-General, has been in office—five years. He appeared before the JCPAA and made it very clear that he was of the view that what was in the report, what had been redacted by the Attorney-General, was in fact not sensitive. The AAT has backed that up.</para>
<para>So I just want to point this out. This is an error of legal judgement by the Attorney-General in much the same manner as he's made legal errors in respect of the prosecution of Witness K, the prosecution of Bernard Collaery, the prosecution of Richard Boyle and the prosecution of David McBride. This decision by the AAT today demonstrates that the Attorney-General does not have the capacity to actually make a correct decision around matters of national security and commercial interest. That's important, because, in some of the trials that are currently being played out before the courts, the NSI has been enacted on the basis of the Attorney-General intervening and requesting that information not be produced in open court because of national security sensitivities. This decision of the AAT shows that the Attorney-General is not capable of making such decisions, and he should now reconsider what he's done in respect of the—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is that the senator is reflecting on the Attorney-General in a way that is in breach of the standing orders. I would ask him not to do so and ask you to bring him to order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Henderson. Senator Patrick, could you continue your remarks with Senator Henderson's comments in mind?</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to make it very clear, this is the finding of the AAT: 'The decision under review is set aside and substituted with a decision that the disputed material is not exempt from disclosure under the FOI Act and that Senator Patrick is given access to the disputed material.' I am quite within my rights to come in here and challenge the efficacy and the ability of the Attorney-General to make proper decisions. Actually, one of the roles of the Senate is to hold the executive to account. In this instance, the Attorney-General sought to censor the parliament and did so improperly. He did so without regard to the law, did so without regard to respect for the parliament. Along the way, the Attorney-General has thrown everything at this. He tried to raise a constitutional matter, which of course required careful consideration, required public money to be spent on the AGS, because the AGS were representing the Prime Minister in this particular case. It required spending taxpayers' money, and then at the very last minute the case on the constitutional matter was withdrawn. It was just a waste of taxpayers' money. If I want to stand in this chamber and say that the Attorney-General did not exercise good judgement, I'm quite entitled to do so. Don't you dare—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Patrick, could you please direct your remarks through the chair.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sorry, Madam Acting Deputy President.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Henderson, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Henderson</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The point of order is that I raised my earlier point of order in relation to other ways in which Senator Patrick was reflecting on the Attorney-General, being his capacity more broadly to make proper decisions. I understand the point that Senator Patrick is raising in relation to the AAT decision. That was not my point of order; it was on the broader point that he's improperly reflecting on the Attorney-General more generally, and I would ask him not to do so.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>252157</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Henderson. I've already ruled on that point of order. Senator Patrick, I'd just remind you to make your comments through the chair.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I apologise for that, Madam Acting Deputy President. Again, no senator should be prevented from coming into this chamber and challenging the judgement of any member of the executive. That is entirely appropriate, that is quite parliamentary; in fact, it is the role of the Senate to do so. Section 49 of the Constitution makes it very clear that we have an oversight responsibility, that we hold the executive to account. If that means I stand and make an allegation, grounded by the facts that I've now read into the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>, that the Attorney-General is incapable of making proper decisions, then I will do so. That is my role. It is quite parliamentary; it is not in breach of the standing orders.</para>
<para>I know that perhaps some senators may feel they wish to defend the Attorney-General. But a series of decisions was made in respect of decisions to prosecute Witness K, Bernard Collaery, Richard Boyle, David McBride—whistleblowers—because the government wants to keep everything inside the closet. Again, information that this parliament was entitled to have was withheld on the basis of a flawed decision by the Attorney-General. The Senate, in my view, ought to reflect on what's happened here. Very simply, it's another instance where the executive is trying to prevent us from doing our work. I've talked on many occasions about times at which the executive have advanced public interest immunity, and time and time again we find that regular citizens can get access to documents that senators can't because the executive simply doesn't respond and, in many respects, because the Senate doesn't properly exercise its powers over the executive. It's a serious issue and I ask senators to reflect on it. I'm happy to provide any of them the decision that was made by the AAT today.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>90</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>90</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>90</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>90</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Scrutiny Digest</title>
            <page.no>90</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of the chair of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills, Senator Polley, I present <inline font-style="italic">Scrutiny Digest</inline> No. 18 of 2020 of the committee.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Northern Australia Committee</title>
          <page.no>90</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>90</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DAVEY</name>
    <name.id>281697</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia, I present the interim report of the committee on the Juukan Gorge caves, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a member of this committee, I would most certainly like to talk to this very important report, titled <inline font-style="italic">Never again</inline><inline font-style="italic">: i</inline><inline font-style="italic">nquiry into the destruction of 46,000 year old caves at the Juukan Gorge in the Pilbar</inline><inline font-style="italic">a region of Western Australia—</inline><inline font-style="italic">interim report</inline>.It contains seven extensive recommendations around what happened when Rio Tinto blew up the 46,000-year-old rock shelters at Juukan Gorge in the Pilbara, devastating the traditional owners, the PKKP, who had indicated that these were extremely important caves. The process failed so badly that, every single way along the process, they were failed, absolutely failed.</para>
<para>This is a multipartisan interim report. These recommendations are powerfully supported by the members of this committee. We made recommendations around Rio Tinto, whose internal processes completely failed. For a long time, Rio Tinto's name around the world was pretty poor because of the way they dealt with Indigenous peoples. Their name improved in Western Australia in terms of their commitment to First Nations cultural heritage. They had their internal processes and then they went downhill. They went downhill to such an extent that they thought it was okay to blow up these 46,000-year-old rock shelters, when, in their administration block at the mine, there is a soil profile that demonstrates that 46,000-year-old history. It has little stickers on it that mark the ice age, that mark where the pyramids were and that mark other memorable points. So this was there. Rio knew this was in the admin centre. Some people walked past it every day, and their executives—some of them, not all of them—had visited it and seen it. They still blew it up. So there are recommendations for Rio Tinto. The first dot point in recommendation 1 is:</para>
<list>Negotiate a restitution package for the destruction of the Juukan rock shelters with the PKKP …</list>
<para>The report then talks about full reconstruction, to try and recover those rock shelters. It then makes recommendations to the Western Australian government, who oversaw this destruction and knew very well that their processes were flawed and that they needed to improve the act. There are a series of recommendations there. There are a series of recommendations to all mining companies, because, for all mining companies, reputation is on the line here. There are still 100 sacred sites—important cultural heritage sites—that have current section 18 approvals over them. There are many other sites; there are many other section 18s. But there are 100 sites that still have section 18s over them.</para>
<para>Do you know what happened at Rio Tinto? When they got approval to destroy the Juukan Gorge, the two rock shelters, the indicators came off the maps. Just because you get approval to destroy them, the indication of them being in certain sites comes off their maps. So there is a recommendation to all mining companies to:</para>
<list>Undertake independent review of their agreements with Traditional Owners and commit to ongoing regular review to ensure consistency with best practice standards. In particular, companies should review final compensation clauses in recognition that free, prior and informed consent requires continuous review and engagement with traditional owners …</list>
<para>The interim report goes on to make a number of other recommendations. It makes a recommendation to the Australian government to:</para>
<list>Seek to legislate a prohibition on agreements that restrict Traditional Owners from publicly raising concerns about heritage protection or exercising their rights under heritage legislation; …</list>
<para>That's because mining companies in Western Australia—and Rio Tinto is not the only one—have participation agreements, and other agreements, that have gag clauses in them that stop people exercising their rights under, for example, our Racial Discrimination Act, our environmental protection laws or our human rights laws. That is appalling—absolutely appalling. So, even though the PKKP were raising objections and raising their concerns about this, they had no legal mechanism with which to act, because our ATSIHP Act, the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act 1984, is barely worth the paper it is written on. And recommendation 7 of the interim report says:</para>
<list>The Committee recommends that the Australian Government urgently review the adequacy of the <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act 1984</inline>.</list>
<para>Recommendation 5 is:</para>
<list>The Committee recommends to the Australian Government that ministerial responsibility for the administration of the <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act 1984 </inline>revert to the Minister for Indigenous Australians, and that the National Indigenous Australians Agency become the administering authority.</list>
<para>Recommendation 6 is:</para>
<list>The Committee recommends to the Australian Government that the relevant Minister direct their office and department to more vigorously prosecute use of the <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Heritage Protection Act 1984</inline> in Western Australia until such time as new legislation is enacted in Western Australia replacing the current <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal Heritage Act 1972 </inline>(WA).</list>
<para>I urge all senators to read this report. It has many very important points that people need to read to see what's going on in this country. I agree with the title of this report: <inline font-style="italic">Never again</inline>. Never again.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise to make a brief contribution on the tabling of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia's interim report,<inline font-style="italic"> Never again.</inline> I begin by acknowledging the PKKP people and the loss of such a foundational feature of their heritage due to Rio Tinto's destruction of the Juukan Gorge. Their anger and grief is shared by every Australian, both Indigenous and non-Indigenous. In my additional comments to this report, I've consciously focused on two critical areas. The first is the importance of continuing to hold Rio Tinto accountable for its deliberate and destructive actions. I'm sure I speak for many, many people who believe Rio Tinto's remorse has been shallow and still shows an outrageously poor understanding of the consequences of Rio's actions. The second is ensuring that the actions of Rio Tinto, and Rio alone, do not result in a significant loss of confidence in the goodwill and progress that has been made on resource development and Indigenous issues over many decades in my home state of Western Australia. It is necessary to remind people that WA's resource and mining industry does not just power the Western Australian and national economies; it is a critical element in enabling the empowerment of Indigenous people across my home state.</para>
<para>Rio Tinto still needs to be held accountable. In its final report, the committee intends to comment further on Rio Tinto's time line prior to the destruction of the Juukan Gorge, but it's important to canvass Rio Tinto's conduct now, to hold those responsible accountable, to end the uncertainty for those involved and to enable the deep wounds this incident has caused to begin healing. As far as I'm concerned, Rio Tinto, including its chairman and its board, are still on notice. They should not allow themselves to believe the investigation into their culpability has concluded. In brief, it took nearly 20 days for Rio's Chief Executive, Mr Jacques, to make a public apology following the event. Even then, he apologised only for the distress caused. It was not until Rio Tinto made a submission to the inquiry that he acknowledged the destruction of Juukan Gorge should not have occurred. In my additional comments I have called for Rio Tinto to review why this took so long and for those within the organisation who argued for only apologising for the distress caused to reconsider their positions within the industry.</para>
<para>My additional comments also highlight the actions of Rio Tinto in the days prior to the event. In their submission, the PKKP asserts:</para>
<quote><para class="block">PKKP do not accept Rio Tinto's position that, before May 2020, it was unaware of the ethnographic and archaeological significance of the Juukan Gorge. Neither does PKKP accept that if Rio Tinto had known the 'new information' contained in … [the] further report dated 18 May 2020 it would not have proceeded with the blast.</para></quote>
<para>I agree with PKKP. The fact that Rio removed seven explosives to prevent committing an offence under section 17 of the Aboriginal Heritage Act 1972 but none of the explosives that destroyed Juukan Gorge amplifies this view, I believe.</para>
<para>The board review was insufficient. Rio Tinto must more genuinely and independently review its actions and be honest with the PKKP and the Australian community. This is a board that employed and oversaw the contract of Mr Jacques, who created a 'fit in or F-off' culture at Rio Tinto. Those who supported him through this period should resign and exit the WA mining industry. The actions of Rio Tinto have tarnished the whole resource and mining industry in Western Australia and beyond. This is the most disappointing element of the inquiry: Rio Tinto has positioned itself as a moral leader in the industry, including funding political campaigns to influence others, yet, when a practical test of respecting Aboriginal culture arose, it failed—capital F failed.</para>
<para>We can continue to hold Rio Tinto accountable and deliver regulatory certainty for WA's resource and mining industry. No-one would be surprised by the combined emphasis of my additional comments in the report. Evidence to the committee indicates there is room for improvement across the industry in relation to agreement-making with traditional owners. But I disagree that part of the solution is a moratorium on section 18 approvals, which are a vital process to enable development in WA. In these economic times it is wrong to create uncertainty for the resource and mining industry, the pastoral and other industries and government agencies that use the Aboriginal Heritage Act 1972 to facilitate development. A full moratorium would put at risk or halt METRONET, the Perth Airport runway and countless resource and other job-creating projects across the state. I believe it is a step too far and its inclusion represents a sovereign risk.</para>
<para>It's important to highlight that the final decision-maker on section 18 approvals is the WA Minister for Aboriginal Affairs, the Hon. Ben Wyatt MLA. I have confidence in his ability to ensure that adequate consideration is given to the views of traditional owners. The WA government is already progressing key reforms to address the issues identified in the report, with the replacement of the Aboriginal Heritage Act 1972. It has released a draft bill that has been subject to exhaustive consultation with industry and traditional owners. I have confidence in the process to date and what this bill will achieve.</para>
<para>Rio Tinto's conduct does not represent that of the entire industry. Rather than a regulatory overreach and punishing the entire industry and Indigenous people for Rio Tinto's failures, we should instead use this terrible event as a catalyst to improve agreement-making with traditional owners. At all times, the guiding principle must be the empowerment of local communities to make their local decisions. The work of this inquiry has been important, and its future contribution will be critical in restoring the trust that Rio Tinto has so willingly and knowingly destroyed. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As part of this inquiry, the committee heard from the PKKP people, including Mr Burchell Hayes, a descendent of Juukan, who described the gorge as 'an anchor of our culture,' and said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The loss of Juukan Gorge rock shelters is also a loss to all First Nations people and the community within Australia and internationally …</para></quote>
<para>He talked about how neighbouring Indigenous groups have a direct connection with Juukan and also feel powerless and angry at this happening. The traditional owners said that the incident had caused immeasurable cultural and spiritual loss and profound grief.</para>
<para>It was fantastic that committee members were able to go and visit the PKKP people on their lands, talk to them and visit the site. Unfortunately, due to the restrictions of COVID and quarantining, I wasn't able to do that myself. But because of the importance of this inquiry and the nature of it—that it be concluded or the interim report be delivered this year, given the significance of this issue—it was worth that sacrifice, for people to be able to go and be on location and view what had gone on.</para>
<para>Since the inquiry began, it has received over 142 submissions and held 11 public hearings. The committee held a yarn session with the PKKP people and some members were able to visit the site itself. I'd like to thank the committee for their support on this work, because it was a difficult year, particularly with the geography and locations that we were dealing with. It was such a significant issue with not only national interest but also international interest, given the nature of the company that we are talking about.</para>
<para>I think the role that Rio Tinto had in the destruction is obviously crucial. The committee heard from the now former CEO, Mr Jacques, and his leadership team. I think one of the more consequential pieces of evidence that we heard from Rio was that they actually had four proposals that they were looking at in regard to expansion. But they only presented one of those options to the PKKP people, and that involved the destruction of the gorge. We also found out, through the evidence, that that was worth $134 million extra to Rio because of the higher grade ore that would be gained from the destruction of Juukan. It was obvious from the evidence that we teased out of Rio that they were going to make more money by the destruction of the gorge and mining that area than they would have if they had considered some of those three areas that they had looked at for expansion. There's no doubt that the decision was a financial one that would have resulted in more returns to Rio and their shareholders.</para>
<para>In the days leading up to the blast, there were clear examples of how they failed to consult with the PKKP people. When the Rio Tinto heritage team was meeting with the PKKP people on 14 May, the heritage team were unaware of the plan to blast the site. On 18 May the heritage team requested to temporarily suspend blast plans to allow further consultation with the PKKP. Yet, even after the suspension at the request of the PKKP, Rio Tinto continued to load explosives into the site.</para>
<para>On 20 May when Richard Bradshaw, the lawyer for PKKP people who had planned on lodging an injunction to prevent the explosions and protect the rock shelters, contacted Ken Wyatt's office regarding the destruction, he was told to contact Minister Ley. Despite calling Minister Ley's office twice and being promised a call back, he never heard back from the minister's office. The next day Mr Bradshaw was sent an email from a law firm representing Rio Tinto, reminding him that under the agreement between the PKKP people and Rio Tinto there was a gag clause and that they could not speak publicly. If they did, there was a risk that they could lose payments.</para>
<para>The failure in communication is a broader symptom of the corporate culture at Rio Tinto, and this is also shown through the delay in Rio Tinto apologising to the PKKP people. On 31 May 2020, Chris Salisbury, the Rio Tinto boss iron ore boss in WA, apologised for the distress caused but not for the destruction of the gorge. Similarly, Mr Jacques apologised for the distress caused, not the destruction. They have subsequently apologised and acknowledged that it shouldn't have occurred, but it speaks to the broader cultural issues that the committee recognised were more than just some unfortunate mistakes or ineptitude—that Rio Tinto prioritised commercial gain over meaningful engagement with traditional owners.</para>
<para>Rio Tinto had a number of reports and major excavation of rock shelters in 2014, both highlighting the significance of the site. Ms Niven, who was in charge of relationships with traditional owners and was Rio's most senior executive for Indigenous relations, never visited the Juukan Gorge site and in her role only offered to meet with the PKKP people after they had made a submission to the inquiry, despite being in her role for a number of years. It is worth noting that the three senior Rio executives that have lost their jobs—Mr Jacques, Mr Salisbury and Ms Nevin—walk away with a payout of tens of millions of dollars whilst the PKKP are left with the destruction of the site.</para>
<para>Over recent years, there's no doubt been a degrading of culture within Rio Tinto, especially in relation to Indigenous relations. There have been actions like moving Indigenous relations into the public relations team and then basing that overseas rather than on the ground in Australia where they could actually deal and build a relationship with these people. We heard evidence from Mr Cochrane, a former executive at Rio Tinto, that the Indigenous relations function used to be an integral part of Rio Tinto's operations but is now lumped in with public relations and based in Washington DC. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It's been a source of some puzzlement to me – and I still don't understand it …</para></quote>
<para>He went on to suggest that, in the early 2000s, there was a shift that mining companies like Rio could cut costs and earn high marks for corporate social performance in questionnaires from international organisations. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">If these forms could be filled out in a central office, by people with little field knowledge, why maintain social science specialists in the communities?</para></quote>
<para>And that is unfortunately what they said.</para>
<para>We know there was plenty of evidence provided by experts and by former Rio executives to understand that they had degraded their relationship with Indigenous Australians. They had moved it into a function so that it was dealt with as part of the government relations rather than actually administering and working with Indigenous Australians. There's no doubt that the culture that Mr Jacques had in relation to 'fit in or f-off', which Senator Smith raised as well, played a role in executives and management not being as truthful and honest in dealing with these issues as well as they could have.</para>
<para>The results from this are devastating. The report is very honest, it's very confronting and it deals with substantial challenges not only for the mining community in WA but also for the government of WA and the Commonwealth government. It's why we have delivered an interim report to deal with the substance of WA and what went on with Rio, and it was important that that was done in a timely fashion. I look forward to continuing the work of the committee into next year as we look at the nationwide implications and at how we can work with this parliament to ensure that there's a spotlight on these issues so that something like the Juukan Gorge destruction can never happen again.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a member of the Joint Standing Committee on Northern Australia, I wish to make some comments about the committee's interim report on its inquiry into the destruction of caves occupied by humans for 46,000 years in the Juukan Gorge in the Pilbara region of Western Australia by the Rio Tinto mining company. The committee was due to report on 30 September 2020 but COVID restricted our travel into Western Australia. The Senate, on 31 September, agreed to an extension till today.</para>
<para>First, I want to thank the committee chair, Mr Warren Entsch, for his leadership and commitment to this inquiry. It is most heartening to me that the interim report is a unanimous one. The report expresses a common concern held by all about the destruction of the caves at Juukan Gorge, news of which reverberated around the world. We should take note of the fact that shareholders took a very keen interest in what had happened in this particular situation. But our concern extended beyond the Juukan Gorge. The priceless First Nations heritage is under threat right across the land, and protections are wanting.</para>
<para>The joint committee inquiry attracted more than 140 submissions, which demonstrated widespread community concern at the wanton destruction of the caves at Juukan Gorge on 21 May this year. The most poignant testimony came from the Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura people themselves in both written and verbal evidence. It will suffice to quote one of those witnesses, Burchell Hayes, whose grandfather was known as Juukan. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We have an obligation to look after country in accordance with traditional law and customs. It is our obligation to the old people, who also looked after it. It was on loan to us to pass on to our future generations, our Puutu Kunti Kurrama and Pinikura children, and the future generations yet to come. The disaster has now left a gaping hole in our ability to pass on our heritage to our children and grandchildren.</para></quote>
<para>As a committee, we were able to hear evidence like that directly thanks to the good offices of the Premier of Western Australia, Mr McGowan, and the Commonwealth, which, given all the difficulties with COVID, laid on an Air Force aircraft to transport us, particularly interstate members, to Karratha and for us to get out to the Brockman mine site at Newman. It was an invaluable opportunity, because we were able not only to hear from and talk to the people so tragically affected but also to see their country for ourselves and to witness the area of destruction. The committee had a meeting with over 100 of the traditional owners, a very rare kind of way for committees to work, and we heard from various people the hurt, frustration and anger that they carried as a consequence of this.</para>
<para>This interim report identifies a catalogue of failures of the processes of Rio Tinto. It much saddens me that a company which not that long ago was one of the industry leaders in the way it dealt with First Nations peoples became so cavalier in its pursuit of profit. I caught the tail end of my colleague on this point about how the company had lost the integration of its management and its governance, but failures such as these that led to the Juukan Gorge disaster do not happen out of the blue. These failures were symptomatic of the 'don't care' culture that infected Rio Tinto from the top down. It had gone through a rapid decline in the way it did business. While we're dealing with the top, let me say it was a mistake for board member Mr Michael L'Estrange to be the one to do the company's review of cultural heritage management. He was the wrong man for the job. The report was full of corporate mea culpas and corporate lingo and was an unsatisfactory piece of work. It didn't get to the heart of the drift and rot that were allowed to corrupt Rio Tinto's formerly good practice. It simply didn't nail the fundamental cultural shift over recent years at Rio Tinto that devalued the importance and the input of top-shelf anthropologists and physical heritage advice, as witnessed by Professor Cochrane and Mr Bruce Harvey, who informed the inquiry.</para>
<para>What became plain in the course of the inquiry is that the First Nations peoples are seriously disadvantaged when it comes to dealing with mining companies and government agencies. The scant resources that the First Nations can muster are far outweighed by those the mining companies and bureaucracies bring to bear. The legislation, state and federal, has failed to protect First Nations and their heritage. The ineffectual Native Title Act has delivered nothing of substance to protect the interests of First Nations. We heard of gag clauses in contracts. We heard of people signing over their civil rights to not protest about destruction, or potential destruction, by a company in the exercise of its rights under section 18 of the Western Australian act. If Eddie Mabo were with us, he would be deeply distressed to realise that what he fought for so vigorously has delivered so little—and I'm talking about the future legal regime of the Native Title Act.</para>
<para>The environment and heritage protocols and laws around the country need a serious overhaul, and this committee will be looking at those, going forward. As we speak, even in the Northern Territory, where sacred sites legislation leads the nation, important sites at the blighted McArthur River Mine in the Gulf Country are under threat right now because the government has approved a new mine management plan without the necessary sacred sites clearance certificates having been approved. Australia's reputation and standing in the world is under threat because of deficient legislation, and the casual disregard for First Nations heritage that flows from that.</para>
<para>We have international obligations here to take the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples seriously. Article 11 speaks about the right of Indigenous people to maintain and protect 'manifestations of their cultures, such as archaeological and historical sites'. It goes on to say that states shall provide redress 'which may include restitution, developed in conjunction with Indigenous peoples,' if their cultural property is 'taken without their free, prior and informed consent or in violation of their laws, traditions and customs'. That's a matter this report dealt with in a tangential way. But the importance of free, prior and informed consent cannot be underestimated, and in the review we've been encouraging companies to look at what they've got in their existing section 18s. Australia signed up to the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, but what does it really mean in practice? It just gets disregarded.</para>
<para>How many more Juukan Gorge catastrophes are lurking on working schedules around the country? We don't know, because there are still existing legal regimes that permit—and legally permit—various companies to destroy them. So, whilst our report is called <inline font-style="italic">Never a</inline><inline font-style="italic">gain</inline>, it's in a legislative environment where there's still the capacity for an organisation or a company to destroy such sites. We have a serious problem, and this committee's got some serious work to do, going forward into the new year, on the comparative basis of the legal framework.</para>
<para>It's so sad that things went wrong, badly wrong, for Rio at Brockman 4. But it's also sad that this is not an isolated incident; it's not confined to just this company's operations. There is a lot for us to consume and there is hard work ahead of us. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>95</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Delegated Legislation Monitor</title>
            <page.no>95</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FIERRAVANTI-WELLS</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present Delegated Legislation Monitor 14 of 2020 of the Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to speak to the tabling of the Scrutiny of Delegated Legislation Committee's Delegated Legislation Monitor 14 of 2020. I would like to take this opportunity to highlight some of the key issues arising in the monitor. In particular, I draw the chamber's attention to the committee's concluding comments regarding two legislative instruments which raise significant technical scrutiny issues.</para>
<para>The first instrument is the Australian Postal Corporation (Performance Standards) Amendment (2020 Measures No. 1) Regulations 2020. This instrument implements several temporary changes to performance standards for the delivery of letters and temporarily exempts Australia Post from its retail outlet obligations. The changes aim to respond to the challenges faced by Australia Post during the COVID-19 pandemic. The changes made by the instrument appear to have the potential to affect a broad range of people and entities. These include users of Australia Post services and Australia Post employees. Despite this, the explanatory statement to the instrument states that only Australia Post itself was consulted in the development of the instrument.</para>
<para>Given the significance of the measures and the broad scope of people and entities likely to be affected by them, the committee asked the minister to provide it with updates on the progress of future consultation. The committee also gave a notice of motion to disallow the instrument on 6 October 2020, with a view to reconsidering the notice once the committee was satisfied that appropriate consultation had been undertaken. I'm pleased to inform the chamber that the minister has since advised the committee, considering all the correspondence that we exchanged, that finally public consultation has commenced with a wide range of stakeholders and consumers. The minister has also undertaken to advise the committee of the outcomes of the ongoing review of the temporary arrangements. Now, on the basis of the minister's advice and undertaking, the committee has resolved to conclude its examination of the instrument and withdraw the notice of motion to disallow the instrument.</para>
<para>The second instrument I would like to highlight is the Fair Work Amendment (Variation of Enterprise Agreements No. 2) Regulations 2020. This instrument repeals changes that were made to reduce the access period for a proposed variation of an enterprise agreement from seven days to one day. The committee has been corresponding with the Attorney-General since August this year to resolve its technical scrutiny concerns. In summary, the committee was concerned that the explanatory statement to the instrument breached section 15 of the Legislation Act 2003. That section requires the explanatory statement to a legislative instrument to describe the consultation undertaken in relation to the instrument or explain why no consultation was undertaken.</para>
<para>The committee placed a notice of motion to disallow the instrument on 10 November 2020 to provide it with sufficient time to consider the Attorney-General's advice before the disallowance period expired. The committee subsequently determined that the Attorney-General's advice did not resolve its technical scrutiny concerns. Consequently, we drew the instrument to the attention of the Senate in our monitor 12 of 2020 and resolved to keep the notice of motion to disallow in place to provide the Senate with further time to consider the matter. Since that time, I am pleased to inform the Senate that the Attorney-General has amended the explanatory statement to the instrument to ensure its compliance. In light of the Attorney's implemented undertaking, the committee has resolved to withdraw the notice of motion to disallow the instrument and conclude our examination. I thank both ministers for their constructive engagement with the committee to resolve these issues.</para>
<para>More generally, I take this opportunity to encourage agencies and ministers to make every effort to resolve the committee's scrutiny concerns as quickly as possible. The committee is increasingly having to engage in protracted correspondence with departments and ministers to identify and resolve technical scrutiny issues. I want to bring one to the notice of the Senate. For example, 11 pieces of correspondence were recently exchanged between the committee, the department and the minister in the committee's efforts to resolve its scrutiny concerns relating to the availability of independent merits review under the Continence Aids Payment Scheme 2020. In some instances, including this one, the committee has had to lodge protective notices of motion to disallow instruments to give it sufficient time to resolve our concerns.</para>
<para>We are very concerned about the number and age of outstanding undertakings that have been given by agencies and ministers to address scrutiny concerns. Our monitor 14 of 2020 lists 20 undertakings which have yet to be implemented. Six of these are more than six months old. Where the committee concludes its examination of an instrument on the basis of an undertaking given by an agency or a minister, we expect and the Senate expects that those undertakings will be implemented without delay. We look forward to continuing to work constructively with agencies and ministers in 2021 to ensure that the lawmaking powers delegated to the executive are exercised appropriately in accordance with the principles prescribed by the parliament. Can I say we amended the orders of this Senate to ensure appropriate scrutiny, and I would remind the Senate that approximately half of Commonwealth legislation is by way of delegated legislation. Regrettably, the trend seems to be that about 20 per cent or so of that delegated legislation is not subject to scrutiny by the parliament.</para>
<para>Finally, I wish to draw the Senate's attention to the relevance of the committee's recent interim report on parliamentary oversight of delegated legislation made in times of emergency to the National Emergency Declaration (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2020, which was introduced in the other place last week. Many of the features of the national emergency declaration bill are similar to the delegated legislation-making powers in the Biosecurity Act 2015. In its report, the committee details its serious concerns about the lack of parliamentary oversight of the delegated legislation-making powers in the Biosecurity Act and makes a number of recommendations to address these concerns. I would urge senators to heed the recommendations of the committee's report and the comments of the Scrutiny of Bills Committee about the bill in its forthcoming <inline font-style="italic">Scrutiny Digest</inline> as they consider the terms of the national emergency declaration bill 2020. With these comments, I commend the committee's Delegated Legislation Monitor 14 of 2020 to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights</title>
          <page.no>96</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>96</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HENDERSON</name>
    <name.id>ZN4</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present <inline font-style="italic">Human rights scrutiny report: report 15 of 2020</inline> of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I am pleased to table the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights' 15th scrutiny report of 2020. This report contains a technical examination of legislation's compatibility with Australia's obligations under international human rights law. I also wish to speak to the committee's 13th and 14th scrutiny reports of 2020, which were presented out of session on 13 and 26 November. Together, these three reports set out the committee's consideration of 48 new bills introduced into the parliament between October and 3 December 2020 and 324 legislative instruments registered on the Federal Register of Legislation between 21 September and 1 December 2020.</para>
<para>In these reports, the committee has made substantive comments with respect to 24 bills and legislative instruments, including legislation previously commented on. For example, in this 15th report the committee is seeking further information in relation to the Federal Court and Federal Circuit Court Amendment (Fees) Regulations 2020. This legislative instrument increases the application fee for migration litigants in the Federal Circuit Court from $690 to $3,300. While, significantly, the instrument also provides for the ability to seek full or partial waiver of this fee in cases of financial hardship, in order to form a concluded view on this matter the committee seeks further information to assess what implications this may have in relation to the right to access to justice.</para>
<para>In these reports the committee has also considered the Native Title Amendment (Infrastructure and Public Facilities) Bill 2020, which has now passed. This bill amends the Native Title Act 1993 to extend the operation of the future acts regime for a another 10 years. This regime permits the construction of public housing and other infrastructure on Indigenous-held land. The future acts regime is an important measure which facilitates the timely provision of critical public housing and other public infrastructure for Indigenous communities when agreement cannot be reached with native title holders. As such, the committee considers that this bill promotes the right to an adequate standard of living, education and health. In addition, the committee considers that the amendments may also limit a number of other human rights, including the rights to self-determination, culture and equality, and non-discrimination. The committee notes that these rights may be subject to permissible limitations if that is shown to be reasonable, necessary and proportionate.</para>
<para>In this regard the committee notes in particular that the consultation process provided for in the future acts regime appears to lack several constituent elements of free, prior and informed consent for the purposes of international human rights law. As such, the committee makes several recommendations to assist with the proportionality of the measure, including requiring a consultation process which is guided by the principles contained in the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and the development of guidelines to inform decision-makers working in this area.</para>
<para>Lastly, I note that in <inline font-style="italic">Report 13 of 2020</inline> the committee concluded its consideration of the Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (High Risk Terrorist Offenders) Bill 2020. This bill seeks to establish an extended supervision order scheme for high-risk terrorist offenders who have completed their custodial sentence. It would enable a court to impose any conditions on a person which it was satisfied on the balance of probabilities were reasonably necessary, appropriate and adapted for the purposes of protecting the community from the unacceptable risk of a person committing a terrorism offence. The committee considers that such a scheme may protect the public from harmful acts and so promote the right to life and security of the person. In the context of high-risk terrorist offenders the committee recognises that the government has a critically important role to play in protecting the community from the catastrophic harm which could be caused by a large-scale terrorist attack in Australia. The committee also notes that, given the breadth of potential conditions which could be imposed under an extended supervision order, the order also engages a number of other human rights. The committee notes that most human rights may be permissibly limited. The committee's report sets out a detailed analysis of the international human rights law implications of this bill, and, while acknowledging the need to adequately protect the community, draws these concerns to the attention of the parliament.</para>
<para>In closing, I note that the report I table today is the 15th and final scrutiny report of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights for 2020. I'm very proud of the way in which this committee has continued its scrutiny work throughout the COVID-19 pandemic, including by regularly meeting remotely via teleconference and continuing to scrutinise the many legislative measures which have been introduced to address this unprecedented health crisis. I wish to thank my fellow committee members for their hard work over this period, particularly my deputy chair, Mr Perrett, together with Senators Dodson, Green, McLachlan and Thorpe and House members Mr Georganas, Mr Goodenough, Ms Hammond and Dr Webster, as well as former members Senators Chandler and McKim. I also wish to thank our external legal adviser, Associate Professor Jacqueline Mowbray; our committee secretary, Anita Coles; and all of the secretariat for their hard work during this very difficult year. As always, I encourage all parliamentarians to carefully consider the committee's analysis. With these comments, I commend the three reports to the chamber.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the tabling of the <inline font-style="italic">Human rights scrutiny report: Report 15 of 2020</inline> of the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights. I have some short remarks on the report, particularly the committee's decision to provide no comment on the human rights compatibility of the Clean Energy Finance Corporation Amendment (Grid Reliability Fund) Bill 2020. I understand very well that the committee does not consider issues of public policy only on the black-letter law.</para>
<para>As a human rights campaigner my whole life, I am very proud to sit on this committee. It's time that this parliament has an honest conversation about centring human rights in everything we do. Personally, I believe that climate change is a human rights issue. I want to repeat that. I understand that the committee considers only the black-letter human rights law and not social policy, but it's time that changed. Climate change is a human rights issue, and I thank the Environmental Defenders Office for their staunch defence of human rights in the courts, in the community and to this committee. The United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights has said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Climate change is a reality that now affects every region of the world … Storms are rising and tides could submerge entire island nations and coastal cities. Fires rage through our forests, and the ice is melting. We are burning up our future—literally.</para></quote>
<para>Torres Strait Islander mob are some of the first in the world being impacted by climate change. Their rights to health, culture and life itself are being damaged by climate change. Proud Torres Strait Islander man Yessie Mosby has told the ABC that he scours the beach for the remains of his great-grandmother after huge tides flooded graves on Masig Island. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">My fear is that her skull has been squashed, smashed by the driftwood.</para></quote>
<para>He continued:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Our way of living, our culture, our tradition has been violated.</para></quote>
<para>How is this not a critical human rights issue? How do climate change and this government's inaction not contravene the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, the UNDRIP? This committee needs to be able to consider issues like this and to hear the voices of grassroots mob as well as advocacy organisations like the Environmental Defenders Office. The human rights committee is too important to the work of this parliament for it to become a rubber stamp machine. The committee should be able to consider matters of public policy, and it must be able to consider the UNDRIP, not as a footnote but as a central part of its work. The UNDRIP is the most comprehensive international instrument on the rights of indigenous peoples. It establishes a universal framework of minimum standards for the survival, dignity and wellbeing of the indigenous peoples of the world. I call on the government to do the right thing and modify the Human Rights (Parliamentary Scrutiny) Act 2011 so that the committee can properly consider UNDRIP and also properly consider urgent matters of public policy like climate change. We need to give the committee the powers it needs to properly do its work.</para>
<para>I once again reiterate my thanks to the committee secretariat for their fantastic work and also to the chairperson. I also thank my colleagues Senator Dodson and Mr Perrett, the member for Moreton, for their work on the committee. Let's do the right thing: let's centre human rights into everything we do, particularly in the middle of a climate emergency. Our survival depends on it.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>COVID-19 Select Committee</title>
          <page.no>98</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>98</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the first interim report of the Select Committee on COVID-19, together with the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record of proceedings, and I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>In the few minutes available to me this evening, I am pleased to be able to note that the Senate established this committee on 8 April to examine the government's health and economic response to the pandemic. With limited parliamentary sittings during the early stages of the crisis, the committee has been central to the democratic oversight of decisions with a profound impact on people's safety, welfare and economic survival. We have had 37 public hearings, accepted 463 written submissions and gathered hundreds of hours of evidence.</para>
<para>Firstly, I thank everyone who's made sacrifices to help their fellow Australians in a time of need, especially our health workforce, public servants and others who have worked together to keep us safe and keep services running. Thank you to the many organisations, private individuals and public servants who appeared before the committee and made submissions. Thank you, also, to my fellow committee members and the committee secretariat for their efforts to date.</para>
<para>In 2020, Australians came together and showed remarkable courage, patience and collective spirit. The fact that we avoided the terrible scenarios now playing out in some other countries is the result of this hard work. But we can't afford to be complacent. Despite faring better than many countries, we should remember that almost 28,000 Australians have contracted COVID-19 and 908 Australians have died. Three-quarters of all of these deaths have been in aged-care facilities. Around 39,000 Australians remain stranded overseas, and 8,000 of them are classified as vulnerable people. The economic impact of the pandemic has been severe, with 2.4 million people out of work or working fewer hours than they need, with unemployment forecast to remain above pre-pandemic levels for the next three years. For millions of Australians, 2020 has been the most difficult of years, and we should not underestimate the ongoing challenges that many of these Australians face and will continue to face as we recover from the pandemic.</para>
<para>This is an interim report of the committee. As chair, I felt it was important that we reported to the Senate at the end of this year. The report makes six recommendations and 24 interim findings. This report does find deficiencies in the government's preparation for and early response to the pandemic. On the health response, the short summary is: thank goodness for the states. It was the states that took the big, brave decisions at the right time and forced the hand of a federal government that was resisting pressure to take stronger action. Five areas stand out as the most significant shortcomings in the government's health response to date.</para>
<para>The first and most serious of these is the aged-care crisis. Six hundred and eighty-five residents in aged-care facilities funded and regulated by the Morrison government died from COVID-19, accounting for 75.4 per cent of all COVID-19 deaths in Australia. The federal government didn't have a plan to protect aged-care residents. They ignored the royal commission's warnings in October 2019 in its report titled <inline font-style="italic">N</inline><inline font-style="italic">eglect</inline>. They were too slow to act, and then, when disaster struck, tried to avoid accepting responsibility for keeping people safe. Their big announcement, the Victorian Aged Care Response Centre, didn't open until 25 July, after 294 cases of COVID-19 and 26 deaths in Victorian residential aged-care facilities.</para>
<para>The second is the <inline font-style="italic">Ruby Princess</inline>—a mismanaged disembarkation back in March from a ship which caused the biggest outbreak in Australia. Six hundred and sixty-three passengers on the <inline font-style="italic">Ruby Princess</inline> ended up with COVID-19. The government's failure to observe its human quarantine responsibilities, despite public commitments that it was in charge, allowed these passengers to disembark, spreading the virus right across the country.</para>
<para>The third is the Prime Minister's failure to provide national leadership when we needed it the most. In March, as COVID-19 case numbers continued to grow, the Prime Minister downplayed the need for stricter social-distancing restrictions, undermined decisions by the states and territories to close schools, and made political attacks on Labor premiers over state borders. Without the strong advocacy for bolder measures displayed by state premiers—and particularly by New South Wales and Victoria—Australians' experience with the pandemic could have been very different.</para>
<para>The fourth is the government's expensive and ineffective COVIDSafe app. In April, the Prime Minister said that it would be like sunscreen and help us reopen, yet he failed to deliver on this announcement, with the app suffering performance issues and identifying just 17 unique contacts. And now it's headed for a revamp. I wonder how much that will cost.</para>
<para>The fifth is the failure to put in place a paid pandemic leave scheme when it was needed the most. With millions of Australians not having access to paid sick leave, there was always a big risk that people would go to work sick in order to pay the bills. Low-paid casualised essential workers were identified as being at high risk of spreading the virus due to their lack of paid sick leave very early in the pandemic. The ACTU raised this on 11 March, but this government didn't act for five months, and not before the Victorian aged-care outbreak was well established. It remains unclear as to why the government did nothing to address this huge transmission risk until 3 August—by which point we had already reported over 18,000 cases—other than that it didn't want to act and protect these workers.</para>
<para>On the government's economic response, the short summary is that they left too many people behind. They argued against a wage subsidy scheme and, when they did agree with one, they excluded over one million casuals from JobKeeper. They plundered the retirement savings of people hardest hit by the pandemic, through the poorly designed early access to super scheme, which for months into this pandemic was the largest source of stimulus across the economy. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>National Disability Insurance Scheme Joint Committee</title>
          <page.no>99</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>99</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On behalf of the Chair of the Joint Committee on the National Disability Insurance Scheme, I table two reports: one on general issues and one on the NDIS workforce.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>100</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>PFAS Taskforce, Australian Taxation Office</title>
          <page.no>100</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Order for the Production of Documents</title>
            <page.no>100</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table documents responding to two orders for the production of documents concerning the PFAS Taskforce and foreign shipping.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>18:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the documents.</para></quote>
<para>I thank the Minister for Aged Care for the documents. I was told in meetings with Defence last year that the PFAS Taskforce was working on the problem of PFAS contamination by applying a whole-of-government response, so I asked for the minutes of their meetings to see what a whole-of-government response looked like. I was refused. I did a document discovery, and still no minutes arrived. This third attempt has succeeded. It should not have been this hard to get hold of a simple set of minutes. Having read them, I do understand why they had to be prised from the task force.</para>
<para>The Morrison government's PFAS response is all talk. It is a process that has no destination. As a result, it is achieving nothing. It seems to be aiming to stall and to avert. The last concrete action by this government was in 2018 when it awarded $55 million for a drinking-water program for affected areas and $73 million for research into PFAS. There are now over 900 PFAS sites around Australia. The government is remediating four defence sites—bases at Williamtown, Oakey, Edinburgh and Katherine. Four down and 896 to go.</para>
<para>While the PFAS Taskforce is sitting around holding meetings and reissuing old guidances, the residents of the red zones continue to live with the nightmare every day. Residents are trapped in homes that are unsaleable. I have spoken many times with, and have visited on a number of occasions the home of, David Jefferis and Dianne Priddle from Oakey in Queensland. They purchased their property in 2004 for a combined $2.4 million investment. At that time the defence department knew that their land was affected by PFAS and yet they kept quiet. Once the contamination was made public, the property became unsaleable. David and Dianne's successful cattle breeding and grazing business had to close because nobody wants to buy contaminated cattle or genetics—they have a stud property. It's a very clean and tidy operation. David and Dianne's property and business were recently valued by a registered valuer at just $400,000—a $2 million loss through no fault of their own.</para>
<para>It's an outrage that the Morrison government is allowing these residents to remain trapped in red zones while the PFAS Task Force drifts around from meeting room to meeting room in search of direction. While the recent class action lawsuit was settled, David and Dianne received just $120,000 compensation, and they haven't got the money yet. The government's own PFAS subcommittee has made the same recommendation in the last two update reports. It called for remediation, compensation and like-for-like relocation. That's fair. I hope the third head of that subcommittee in just two years, Senator McCarthy, has more success in getting their recommendations implemented. The way forward now must be to remove residents out of the contaminated red zones, install remediation units and treat the groundwater before these toxic blooms spread further and ruin yet more lives.</para>
<para>Last year I asked the then Minister for Agriculture, Senator McKenzie, if it was safe for producers like David and Diane to send their cattle to auction. Senator McKenzie replied 'there is no reason why farmers cannot send their produce to market'. Let's examine that statement. Food Standards Australia specify a safe level for PFAS exposure of 20 nanograms of PFAS and 160 nanograms for PFOA. These can be present together for a total PFAS level of 180 nanograms per kilo of bodyweight. On 19 September 2020, the European Food Safety Authority set a new safety threshold for PFAS contamination. The limit which now applies across the EU is just 4.4 nanograms per kilogram of bodyweight per week—a fraction of what Australia allows. The European body considered the decreased response of the immune system to vaccination to be the most critical human health effect of PFAS exposure. So I ask, has the PFAS task force considered that the Morrison government is about to introduce a vaccine for COVID that might be put at risk through our tolerating PFAS levels that are 40 times higher than the new European safety standard? Cattle in the red zone from RAAF base Richmond have been tested at over 1,000 nanograms per kilo. Newborn calves are testing at over 300 nanograms. This is the product that former minister McKenzie says is safe to sell and consume. It is not safe to sell. By sending contaminated products to the EU, we're risking food and livestock exports worth $2 billion a year. This is not just affecting Oakey; this is affecting the whole beef industry.</para>
<para>The Morrison government can find billions to give to its big business mates for corporate welfare in the name of COVID but it can't find a much, much smaller amount to fund a like-for-like relocation and compensation scheme for everyday Australians caught up in a nightmare of the government's making, despite the committee recommending it do so. It's time for the Prime Minister to fix this problem. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>101</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>101</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Government Response to Report</title>
            <page.no>101</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para> (—) (): I present the government's response to the report of Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee—Primary Industries (Customs) charges Amendment (Dairy Cattle Export Charge) Bill 2020 and seek leave to have the document incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline></para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The document read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">   Australian Government response to the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee report:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Primary Industries (Customs) Charges Amendment (Dairy Cattle Export Charge) Bill 2020 [Provisions]</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">DECEMBER 2020</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Introduction</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 12 June 2020, the Selection of Bills Committee referred the <inline font-style="italic">Primary Industries (Customs) Charges Amendment (Dairy Cattle Export Charge) Bill 2020</inline> to the Senate Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee (the committee). The reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration were:</para></quote>
<list>To investigate the effectiveness of the bill with regards to funding the Dairy Cattle Export Program</list>
<list>Investigate including breeder cattle into the Export Supply Chain Assurance System (ESCAS)</list>
<list>How effective has the Morrison Government been at influencing animal welfare conditions in importing countries outside of ESCAS</list>
<list>Is it in Australia's national interest for the Morrison government to make available funding for marketing and R&D activities to developed countries such as Japan?</list>
<list>Any other related matters.<inline font-style="italic">(1)</inline></list>
<quote><para class="block">On 17 June 2020, the Secretary of the Department of Agriculture, Water and the Environment was invited to make a submission to the inquiry. A departmental submission was lodged on 30 June 2020. Key points made by the Department included:</para></quote>
<list><inline font-style="italic">The Primary Industries (Customs) Charges Amendment (Dairy Cattle Export Charge) Bill 2020</inline> is the result of the dairy livestock export industry requesting that government impose a mandatory statutory charge on dairy cattle exports at a rate of $6 per head of exported dairy cattle.</list>
<list>The dairy cattle export industry has followed the Levies Principles and Guidelines in consulting with and seeking the agreement of industry to impose a mandatory charge, and in describing the market failure that warrants the charge.</list>
<list>The mandatory charge would replace the current voluntary charge on exported dairy cattle which industry has identified is under-collected and insufficient to meet the needs of the sector or fund the Dairy Cattle Export Program.</list>
<list>The dairy cattle export industry is valued at $200 million per annum and is an important alternate source of income for many Australian dairy farmers, which has positive flow on effects for rural and regional economies and communities.</list>
<quote><para class="block">On 30 July 2020, the committee released its final report. The committee noted the need for the dairy cattle export charge, as the previous voluntary levy scheme faced problems with under‑collection, leaving the dairy cattle export industry without sufficient funds for research and development and marketing activities. The committee noted the wide consultation undertaken by the Australian Livestock Exporters' Council (ALEC) on the imposition of the charge and the industry support for the charge.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The committee noted that ALEC needs to ensure that the major dairy farming industry bodies, including the Victorian body, have an ongoing say in how the levy funds are spent. The department notes that primary industries drive all aspects of their levy. As such, a request for a levy (or a proposal for levy changes), must be supported by industry bodies representing, wherever possible, all existing and/or potential levy payers, the relevant levy beneficiaries and other interested parties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The department acknowledges the levy review timeframe of seven years proposed by ALEC in its levy submission<inline font-style="italic">(2)</inline>, and the committee's comment that the department consider the merits of this proposal. As agricultural levies and their review are industry driven, the department will work with ALEC at the time industry considers a review of the dairy cattle export charge is warranted. The publication <inline font-style="italic">Levy Guidelines: how to establish or amend agricultural levies</inline>(3), provides guidance to industries on how to review a levy and key points to consider when thinking about a levy review. The department has drawn this publication to ALEC's attention.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government thanks the committee for the time and effort put into considering the impact of the <inline font-style="italic">Primary Industries (Customs) Charges Amendment (Dairy Cattle Export Charge) Bill 2020</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Response</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> Response</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government notes the committee's recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The bill was passed by both houses of Parliament and received Royal Assent on 17 September 2020.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Additional comments from the Greens</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1.1 The Greens have significant and ongoing concerns about the cruelty inherent to the live export trade, including the well-documented impacts of heat stress on sheep and cattle during voyages from Australia, and experiences in destination countries. Australians have been shocked by revelations of thousands of animals dying from heat stress and overcrowding on ships and overwhelmingly want this cruelty to end. Animals continue to die on live export ships. The live export industry should be shut down.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1.2 For any charge on the export of dairy cattle, all funds raised, including co‑contributions from the government should be allocated directly to animal health and welfare initiatives, and not for marketing and profitability. All animal health and welfare initiatives, including research, should be undertaken transparently, with regular public reporting and appropriate oversight.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Recommendation 1</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1.3 Recommendation: That all funds raised by the dairy cattle export charge, including co contributions from the government, be allocated directly to animal health and welfare initiatives, to be undertaken transparently, with regular public reporting and appropriate oversight.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Response</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government notes the preference of the Greens for the entirety of the export charge to be directed to animal health and welfare initiatives. The export charge is a request by industry, supported by industry, to fund the program of works under the Dairy Cattle Export program for its benefit. At industry's request, the Dairy Cattle Export Program focusses on a number of key priorities including animal health and welfare, supply chain efficiency, regulatory performance, and market access for the dairy cattle export sector.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">(1)</inline>Selection of Bills Committee, Report No. 5 of 2020, Appendix 2. (12 June 2020)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">(2)</inline>Dairy Cattle Export Charge Industry Proposal, May 2018</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"><inline font-style="italic">(3)</inline>Levy guidelines: how to establish or amend agricultural levies; Department of Agriculture 2020. agriculture.gov.au/ag-farm-food/levies/publications</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the report.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications References Committee, Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>102</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>102</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The President has received a letter requesting changes in the membership of various committees.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That senators be discharged from and appointed to committees as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment and Communications References Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute member: Senator Bilyk to replace Senator Gallacher for the committee's inquiry into the impact of seismic testing on fisheries and the marine environment</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating member: Senator Gallacher</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport Legislation Committee—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appointed—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Substitute member: Senator Sheldon to replace Senator Green for the committee's inquiry into Australia's general aviation industry</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Participating member: Senator Green</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>103</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Aged Care Amendment (Aged Care Recipient Classification) Bill 2020, Corporations Amendment (Corporate Insolvency Reforms) Bill 2020, Export Market Development Grants Legislation Amendment Bill 2020, Health Insurance Amendment (Compliance Administration) Bill 2020, Immigration (Education) Amendment (Expanding Access to English Tuition) Bill 2020, Treasury Laws Amendment (2020 Measures No. 5) Bill 2020, Treasury Laws Amendment (2020 Measures No. 6) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>103</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <p>
              <a href="r6613" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Aged Care Amendment (Aged Care Recipient Classification) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6626" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Corporations Amendment (Corporate Insolvency Reforms) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6602" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Export Market Development Grants Legislation Amendment Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6620" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Health Insurance Amendment (Compliance Administration) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6615" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Immigration (Education) Amendment (Expanding Access to English Tuition) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6625" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (2020 Measures No. 5) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6633" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (2020 Measures No. 6) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>103</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>103</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a revised explanatory memorandum relating to the Aged Care Amendment (Aged Care Recipient Classification) Bill 2020. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<para>AGED CARE AMENDMENT (AGED CARE RECIPIENT CLASSIFICATION) BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">Aged Care Act 1997</inline> to enable a new procedure to classify recipients of residential aged care and some kinds of flexible care from 1 March 2021.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill introduces the option to independently assess the relative care needs of individuals in residential aged care by empowering the Secretary of the Department of Health to assess care recipients using a new assessment tool and assign new classification levels. The Bill also includes consequential amendments to other parts of the Act to enable exercise of the new powers, including that any assessors acting as delegates of the Secretary must hold professional qualifications and complete role-specific training detailed in a legislative instrument under the Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A sustainable aged care system needs a reformed funding model. There is broad support – including through the Royal Commission – for a modern case-mix based funding model for residential aged care to replace the outdated Aged Care Funding Instrument.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently clinical workers in residential aged care are required to spend their time using the Aged Care Funding Instrument to assess residents, reducing their availability to deliver care.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reports produced by both independent researchers and the statutory Aged Care Financing Authority have found the Aged Care Funding Instrument provides strong incentives for providers to deliver outdated methods of care – whether or not care recipients may benefit – to produce higher subsidy payments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Aged Care Funding Instrument has been found to no longer be fit for purpose and its use has been found to lead to perverse actions by aged care providers, causing perverse outcomes for aged care recipients.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since the 2016 Budget, the Government has committed to developing and testing a lasting alternative to the Aged Care Funding Instrument.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Between 2017 and 2019 the Government funded the University of Wollongong to perform a research project, the <inline font-style="italic">Resource Utilisation and Classification Study</inline>. With the involvement of almost 200 residential aged care services, the study empirically measured drivers of the costs of delivering care, and recommended a new resident classification model called the Australian National Aged Care Classification.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under this new model, it is proposed that assessors acting as delegates of the Secretary perform resident assessments using a new assessment tool, leading to the Secretary assigning new, simpler classification levels that consistently group care recipients with like care needs and like care costs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">All assessors acting as delegates of the Secretary must meet strict professional qualification and additional training criteria, to be detailed in subordinate legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill builds on the successful Australian National Aged Care Classification trial – conducted in 2019 and early 2020 – and will allow a new classification using the Australian National Aged Care Classification tool to be determined for the entire residential aged care population without affecting how subsidy for providers is calculated. This is an essential step in preparing to respond to the findings of the Royal Commission into Aged Care Quality and Safety in a timely manner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Classification data obtained from these assessments will ensure that individuals, care workers, providers and the government all have the information they need to fully understand the new funding model.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">During the information-gathering period the Bill allows, providers will continue to use the existing Aged Care Funding Instrument to assess their residents in parallel with the new procedure established by the Bill.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill enables the next phase of residential aged care funding reform. A phase of preparation that will enable the Government, in the context of a response to the findings of the Royal Commission into Aged Care Quality and Safety, to quickly and seamlessly transition funding from the outdated ACFI. It sets the stage for a more contemporary, efficient, effective and stable funding approach, one that will promote investment in residential aged care refurbishment and expansion, and that will support providers to better deliver the individualised care that each resident needs.</para></quote>
<para>CORPORATIONS AMENDMENT (CORPORATE INSOLVENCY REFORMS) BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">This bill implements the most significant reforms to Australia's insolvency framework in almost 30 years and is part of the government's economic recovery plan to keep businesses in business and Australians in jobs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The changes will help more Australian small businesses to restructure and increase their chance to survive the economic impact of the coronavirus.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms form part of the government's JobMaker plan to ensure Australia emerges from the pandemic with a stronger, more resilient and more competitive economy. As the economy continues to recover, it will be critical that distressed businesses have the necessary flexibility to either restructure or to wind down their operations in an orderly manner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The package of reforms features three key elements.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Firstly, a new formal debt restructuring process for small businesses to provide a faster and less complex mechanism for financially distressed but viable firms to restructure their existing debts, increasing the chance of them surviving and contributing to economic and jobs growth. Unlike the current voluntary administration regime the new process adopts a 'debtor in possession' model where the small business owner will remain in control of their business, while a debt restructuring plan is developed and voted on by creditors. The plan will be developed by the business owner in conjunction with an independent small business restructuring practitioner.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Safeguards are included to prevent the process from being used to facilitate corporate misconduct such as illegal phoenix activity. They include a bar on the same company or directors using the process more than once within a prescribed period and the provision of a broad power for the insolvency practitioner to stop the process. Additional mechanisms are also included as part of the restructuring process to ensure that creditor interests are represented and protected.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The second part of the package is a new, simplified liquidation pathway for small businesses to allow faster and lower-cost liquidation, increasing returns for creditors and employees. Unfortunately, due to the impact of the coronavirus not every business will survive. Often in liquidation the costs of the liquidation can consume all or almost all of the remaining value of a company, leaving little return for creditors. The simplified liquidation process will retain the general framework of the existing liquidation process, with modifications to reduce time and cost.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Thirdly, the bill introduces complementary measures to ensure the insolvency sector can respond effectively both in the short and long term to increased demand and to the needs of small business.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new insolvency processes will come into effect from 1 January 2021. This coincides with the ending of the government's temporary measures to support businesses to get through the coronavirus outbreak. The temporary measures had a positive impact on allowing businesses to survive, with around a 50 per cent decrease in the number of companies that have gone into external administration over the period from April to August 2020 (inclusive) compared to the same period the previous year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For businesses wanting to access the new restructuring process, a temporary mechanism will be put in place allowing a company to announce its intention to access the restructuring process. Upon this announcement the company will have access to the existing temporary insolvency relief for up to three months while it arranges to access the new process.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Together, these measures will reform our insolvency system to reduce access costs for small business, reduce the time they spend during insolvency processes, ensure greater economic dynamism, and ultimately help more small businesses to survive.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Legislative and Governance Forum on Corporations was consulted in relation to the bill and has approved it, as required under the Corporations Agreement 2002.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the explanatory memorandum.</para></quote>
<para>EXPORT MARKET DEVELOPMENT GRANTS LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">Every Australian has been affected by COVID-19 – some tragically more so than others. The OECD tells us that we are in the midst of the biggest global downturn since the Great Depression. We have weathered the storm better than most countries, and that has not been an accident. Economically, we have shown great resilience, aided by our quick introduction of programs like JobKeeper and our record levels of economic support. During this period, our export sector has been a source of strength, consistent with our long history of being an open, trading nation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Exports makes an important contribution to the Australian economy. Thirty years ago, Australian exporters represented 12 per cent of Australia's GDP. By 2018-19, that share had nearly doubled to over 22 per cent, contributing $419 billion of Australia's $1.9 trillion economy. The Liberal National Government has implemented an ambitious trade agenda, resulting in more than 53,000 (including 46,000 SMEs) goods exporting businesses in 2017-18, up 18.5 per cent since 2013-14 and more jobs, with one in five Australians employed in trade-related employment. Australian household incomes are estimated to be an average of around $8,500 higher as a result of opening up new markets through trade.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">However, the number of Australian businesses that export – either goods or services – is relatively small. According to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, around 2 per cent of the 2.2 million businesses in Australia are goods exporters. Australian Small and Medium Enterprises (SMEs) only comprise 14 per cent of exporters in contrast to the G7 average of 25 per cent. However, exporters contribute more than non-exporters to jobs and productivity, on average employing more staff, paying higher wages and achieving higher labour productivity compared to non-exporters. This is because Australian exporters compete with companies around the world and are driven to be innovative, use the most modern technology and management practices.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Cutting red tape and growing jobs through increasing exports is more important now than ever. The Morrison Government wants to assist SME exporters to recover from the effects of COVID-19 – and grow the number of SME exporters – by providing better targeted, direct financial assistance in a more simplified and streamlined way. This will help grow and diversify Australia's export markets, while also improving Government service delivery and reducing regulatory imposts on businesses. We want to ensure taxpayer funding is used in the most effective and efficient way possible with the greatest impact.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Export Market Development Grants (EMDG) scheme is the key Government financial assistance program to help aspiring and current exporters increase their marketing and promotional activities in international markets. Since it started in 1975, the EMDG scheme has supported over 50,000 SME exporters to enter and grow export markets for their goods, services, intellectual property and know-how. Last year alone, over 4,000 SMEs accessed the scheme, employing almost 69,000 Australians and generating exports worth $3.7 billion.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On 10 September 2020, the Government released the independent <inline font-style="italic">Review of Financial Assistance to SME exporters</inline>. The Review was undertaken by Anna Fisher, a wine exporter and past EMDG recipient. Ms Fisher was asked to examine the most effective and efficient way to deliver financial assistance to Australian SME exporters to encourage additional export development and promotion activities. Specifically, the Review considered whether EMDG in its current form was the most effective and efficient way to generate additional export activity among the SME cohort. The Review undertook broad consultations to seek the views of exporters – aspiring, new and established – individuals, industry associations, EMDG consultants, and other interested parties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review found that the financial assistance provided by the EMDG scheme is valued by SME exporters. The scheme helps offset the high cost of export promotion, accelerates internationalisation and encourages exporters to diversify. However, the Review also found that EMDG's administration needed to be streamlined, simplified and better targeted.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review made ten recommendations, all accepted in-principle by the Government, including:</para></quote>
<list>The Government should continue to provide financial assistance to SMEs to encourage them to enter and grow export markets.</list>
<list>The principles underpinning the EMDG scheme were valued by exporters and should be retained in a simplified scheme.</list>
<list>An SME should be 'export-ready' before it receives financial assistance.</list>
<list>The program be re-targeted toward exporters with a turnover of less than $20 million with support aligned to the stages of an SME's export journey:</list>
<quote><para class="block">o SMEs that are export-ready and will be doing business overseas for the first time; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">o Exporters who are either expanding in their current markets or entering new markets.</para></quote>
<list>That the way financial assistance is provided to SME exporters should be simplified by removing complexity, streamlining and providing more certainty.</list>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill, the<inline font-style="italic"> Export Market Development Grants Legislation Amendment Bill 2020, </inline>implements the Review's recommendations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review noted simplification could be achieved by amending the <inline font-style="italic">Export Market Development Grants Act 1997</inline> to provide a legislative framework that incorporates the key EMDG principles, with operational detail provided under the Rules – a disallowable instrument – and with administrative details in the guidelines.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review found the principles of the EMDG scheme remained relevant and valued by exporters. Those core EMDG principles are retained in this Bill which:</para></quote>
<list>Will continue to provide financial support for eligible Australian exporters who produce substantially Australian products, whether they be goods or services.</list>
<list>Does not prioritise particular industries or export markets.</list>
<list>Ensures a wide range of expenditure is eligible, reflecting that businesses approach markets in different ways.</list>
<list>Continues to focus assistance on promotional activities.</list>
<list>Provides access for SMEs to multi-year entitlements, reflecting the time it takes to build a presence in the market.</list>
<list>Ensures SMEs have 'skin in the game' – they will be provided with a proportion of their eligible expenditure.</list>
<list>Continues to provide for regular evaluation of the program.</list>
<quote><para class="block">The Review found the current EMDG scheme, which reimburses exporters, provides no certainty about the level of Government support prior to exporters' expenditure on promotional activities. Currently, some exporters wait up to two years to receive reimbursements, with the level of funding unknown until after completion of their promotional activities. This is unacceptable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will create upfront certainty for exporters about the level of Government support. The Bill changes EMDG from a reimbursement scheme to one which will see eligible SMEs entering upfront grant agreements that provide them with funding certainty over multiple years.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review also recommended that EMDG recipients be export-ready to ensure the greatest impact and obtain the most value from the Government's support. The Bill removes the export performance test and the requirement that recipients have a prospect of success. This is replaced with the requirement that recipients be either ready to export or have already exported their products. It is not the business of the Australian government to be picking winners.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review found the Government should continue to fund export-focused industry bodies or alliances formed on behalf of members, and that support should be expanded to include facilitating education and training of members to help them become export-ready. The Bill expands eligible activities to include training, to implement this recommendation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Review also found the EMDG scheme administration was too complex. We need to cut red tape and make it easier for SME exporters to apply. Accordingly, this Bill modernizes and streamlines the administration of EMDG. Currently, the bulk of EMDG's administrative requirements are contained within the Act. While the Bill contains EMDG's core principles, it removes the detailed requirements on administrative matters, such as how to apply for grants and what information will need to be provided to support the application. These matters will be managed through administrative guidelines. The Bill also removes the separate approval process for industry bodies and requirements about when expenses are incurred. Like any grant program, funding will now be agreed for activities prior to expenditure.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Like the previous Act, the Bill also contains rule-making powers for the Minister, to establish the operational details for the program through the Rules, a disallowable instrument. The Rules will set the under $20 million turnover threshold for eligible SMEs and the tiers of EMDG support – for SMEs new-to-export and expanding exporters, as recommended by the Review. While the Bill establishes EMDG as being for Australian exporters and for products that are substantially Australian, it is the Rules that will elaborate on matters like the definition of eligible products and eligible expenses, and deal with technical details such as the effect of foreign investment in an SME, and disqualifying convictions for eligible persons.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The world moves at a faster pace than when the EMDG scheme started in 1975, and the new legislative structure will also allow the Government to respond more quickly to rapidly changing markets and business practices, and to unforeseen disruptions like COVID-19.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In streamlining EMDG administration, the Bill focuses on the relationship, created through a grant agreement, between the Commonwealth and the EMDG recipient. The Bill therefore removes the ability to compel third parties to provide information in support of the applicant. It also removes provisions related to other third parties, such as associates and consultants.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Mirroring Commonwealth grant agreements, the Bill allows adjustments to be made to grant agreements should the amount appropriated for the EMDG program be reduced.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reforming EMDG will result in systems and administrative changes. To meet the cost of these reforms, the Bill temporarily lifts the cap on EMDG administration expenses from 5 percent to 7.5 percent for financial year 2020-21 and to 7 percent for financial year 2021-22, before returning to its previous cap of 5 percent for administration costs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In implementing the Review's recommendations, the Government is confident this Bill will create a framework for a reoriented EMDG program that is simplified and streamlined to deliver financial assistance to SME exporters in the most effective and efficient way, and in a way which will have the greatest impact. These reforms will both assist current SME exporters to recover from the effects of COVID-19 and grow the number of SME exporters, contributing to Australia's economic recovery and future economic growth and prosperity.</para></quote>
<para>HEALTH INSURANCE AMENDMENT (COMPLIANCE ADMINISTRATION) BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill makes minor but necessary changes to the <inline font-style="italic">Health Insurance Act 1973</inline> to make clearer current arrangements for recovery of Medicare payments owed to the Commonwealth.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill corrects a possible misunderstanding about the operation of the Act. Medicare benefits are recoverable if incorrect information provided in connection with a claim leads to an overpayment, even if the information was not intentionally incorrect.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also provide Government the flexibility to adapt to changes in the way Medicare claims might be made in the future. It is worth recalling that the provisions for recovery of amounts overpaid were first enacted more than three decades ago, that is—in digital technology timeframes, at least—eons ago.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Technological advances in Medicare claiming may be easily accommodated because of the stipulation that it is the giving of information, regardless of its form, rather than the making of a statement that will be the basis for a claim for Medicare payment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Critically, these amendments will help protect the integrity and financial viability of the Medicare program that each year provides for hundreds of millions of services through billions of dollars in benefits. In 2018–19, for example, there were 424 million Medicare services with benefits totalling 24 billion dollars.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The vast majority of practitioners do the right thing—only a small proportion of Medicare services are claimed incorrectly, but given the quantum of money involved, they comprise significant recoverable amounts nonetheless. These amendments will ensure that the Commonwealth may continue to recover overpayments and continue to protect Australia's universal health care system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Medicare program gives Australians access to world-class and affordable health care by providing benefits or rebates for around 6,000 services, each with its own item number, listed on the Medicare Benefits Schedule. The Schedule's services are specified in regulations, which require that practitioners fulfil the criteria described in items before Medicare benefits are payable.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Subsection 129AC(1) of the <inline font-style="italic">Health Insurance Act 1973 </inline>enables the Commonwealth to recover amounts overpaid for incorrectly claimed Medicare benefits or payments where a false or misleading statement has led to a payment that should not have been made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments to subsection 129AC(1) will clarify for practitioners its intended operation. That is, that the Commonwealth can seek to recover Medicare benefits and payments because of false or misleading information provided in relation to a claim, whether or not the information was intentionally incorrect.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Under the amendments, it is immaterial whether the false or misleading information is given:</para></quote>
<list>in a document, or</list>
<list>in a statement, or</list>
<list>in any other form.</list>
<quote><para class="block">This will ensure recoveries are possible where claims have been made through digital claiming channels. Currently, no amounts can be recovered from a person under subsection 129AC(1) unless the Commonwealth has given the person a clear, written explanation of its decision to recover the amount. This Bill retains these protections, ensuring that anyone who may be found to have received recoverable amounts has the opportunity to understand the reason for the decision and to submit evidence, and the right to a formal review under legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes do not impose additional requirements upon practitioners. Practitioners are currently responsible for ensuring that all claims they make are accurate and correct. This will not alter, and, critically, no patients will be affected by these amendments. The Bill retains the provision that overpayments are recovered from the person who was responsible for the false or misleading information, even if the Medicare benefit was paid to the patient, or another third party.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments will apply retrospectively, to ensure that any incorrect claims or payments made prior to the passage of this Bill may be recovered.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments do not change the lawful basis for which Medicare benefits or payments are payable, and as such do not affect a person's existing rights.</para></quote>
<para>THE IMMIGRATION (EDUCATION) AMENDMENT (EXPANDING ACCESS TO ENGLISH TUITION) BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Immigration (Education) Amendment (Expanding Access to English Tuition) Bill 2020 will amend the Immigration (Education) Act 1971, to provide greater access to free English language tuition for migrants to Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Without English, it is harder to get a job, harder to integrate into a person's local community, and harder to participate in Australia's democracy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Only 13 per cent of those with no English skills are in work compared to 62 per cent of those who speak English well.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Migrants with no English skills are also more vulnerable to fall victim to foreign interference and misinformation, and will likely find it harder to seek help if they are a victim of family violence or exploitation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">English language is also vital to our social cohesion – if we can't communicate at school, or work, or in social settings, how can we fully connect as a nation?</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Census data shows that the number of people in Australia who do not speak English well or at all has risen.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2006, about 560,000 residents did not speak English well or at all. By 2016, at the last Census, it was 820,000.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Following that trend, there is now likely now close to a million people living in Australia who do not speak English well or at all – about half of those are working age.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is in their interest and in the interest of all Australians that we reverse this trend. We must do better.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This bill is designed to support migrants to increase their English language proficiency. It contains four key measures, which I will discuss in greater detail.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The first measure is to remove the current 510 hour limit on free English tuition that a migrant is entitled to under the Adult Migrant English Program (the AMEP).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Learning a new language is complex and takes time. The number of hours of tuition required by each individual varies based on many factors, including age, prior education and the linguistic distance of their first language from English. Research shows that 510 hours is not a realistic timeframe for most migrants to reach even a functional level of English. This amendment will ensure that migrants participating in the AMEP have the opportunity to continue to undertake free English tuition until they reach a vocational level of proficiency in English.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The second measure is to extend the upper limit for eligibility to access the AMEP from functional English to vocational English.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The AMEP currently provides free English tuition for migrants up to the level of functional English. This is lower than the level of English required by most employers, and for entry to most TAFE courses. By raising the upper limit to vocational English, the Government will be ensuring that migrants have the opportunity to study English for longer and reach a higher level of proficiency. This will enhance migrants' prospects for further education and future employment, as well as support their full participation in the Australian community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The third measure is to remove the time limits on enrolment, commencement and completion of English tuition for certain visa holders.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This amendment will remove disincentives to participation in English language studies, by allowing certain visa holders with low levels of English proficiency who are in, or have already entered Australia, the opportunity to re-engage in language learning. This recognises that migrants often have a number of competing settlement priorities when they first arrive in Australia, including work, accommodation and family commitments. This amendment will provide a strong message regarding the importance of learning the national language, and the level of support that the Government is committed to provide to do this.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the fourth measure is to provide the discretion for English courses to be delivered to people who are outside Australia and who have applied for or been granted a permanent visa, or a specified temporary visa.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, this discretion only applies to people outside Australia who have applied for a permanent visa. It does not include people who have been granted a permanent visa, or persons who have applied for or been granted a temporary visa.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This amendment will ensure that tuition options can be developed in the future for the delivery of English courses to people who are overseas, including after their visas have been granted, in preparation for their migration to Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In conclusion, this bill makes a number of important amendments that will better support migrants in their efforts to learn English, and contribute to enhanced social cohesion within the Australian community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend the bill to the chamber.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">TREASURY LAWS AMENDMENT (2020 MEASURES NO. 5) BILL 2020</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill builds on the Government's broader support to Australian businesses and taxpayers and also implements an important diplomatic commitment to New Zealand.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 to the Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">Income Tax Assessment Act</inline><inline font-style="italic">1997</inline> to introduce a new legislative instrument making power into the income tax laws to make eligible State and Territory Coronavirus business grants free from income tax. As announced by the Prime Minister on 18 September 2020, this tax treatment will be extended to the Victorian Government's Coronavirus business grants announced on 13 September 2020.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Other States and Territories will be able to apply for the same tax treatment where they have grant programs focussed on supporting small and medium businesses facing similarly exceptional circumstances.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 to the Bill will improve the operation of the Trans‑Tasman Retirement Savings Portability arrangement established between Australia and New Zealand by allowing the ATO to transfer the unclaimed super of New Zealand residents directly to KiwiSaver funds.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is a significant improvement to how the scheme operates for New Zealanders that have superannuation in Australia. Prior to this amendment, New Zealanders with unclaimed super were unable to receive their superannuation directly from the ATO. Instead, they were required to open an Australian superannuation account before requesting their super be transferred to their KiwiSaver account in New Zealand. Now, New Zealanders will be able to apply directly to the ATO and have their fund transferred to their retirement savings account without further administrative burden.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This change also removes a source of unnecessary cost from the Australian superannuation system by taking the burden off Australian superfunds to play the intermediary role in transferring these funds to New Zealand.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 to the Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">Income Tax Assessment Act 1997</inline> to include Neighbourhood Watch Australasia Limited on the list of deductible gift recipients. Deductible Gift Recipient status allows members of the public to receive income tax deductions for the donations they make to this organisation</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">TREASURY LAWS AMENDMENT (2020 MEASURES NO. 6) BILL 2020</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill makes a number of technical amendments to clarify the operation of a number of laws and provide greater flexibility for Australians accessing the existing full expensing, backing business investment and consumer data right regimes. It also removes support for charitable institutions who fail to take reasonable steps to participate in the National Redress Scheme for Institutional Child Sexual Abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 to the Bill introduces an alternative test for accessing the temporary full expensing measure. This alternative test will allow eligible businesses who have less than $5 billion in statutory and ordinary income (excluding non‑assessable non-exempt income) in the 2018-19 or 2019-20 income year to access temporary full expensing. This alternative test targets Australian businesses that have a track record of investing in Australia but could not qualify under the existing test as their turnover was aggregated with an overseas parent or affiliate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To ensure that the integrity rules associated with this extension operate as intended, Schedule 1 includes a number of clarifications to the tax law. For firms that qualify for full expensing under the alternative test, certain classes of assets are excluded, and this exclusion will apply to assets made available to a related party or a foreign entity.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments provide businesses with more flexibility by allowing businesses to opt out of full expensing and the backing business investment incentive on an asset-by-asset basis.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 to the Bill amends the <inline font-style="italic">Competition and Consumers Act 2010</inline> to better enable the Consumer Data Right to grow in a way that is coordinated, accessible and secure.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments will consolidate key Consumer Data Right policy functions to improve coordination of the ongoing expansion and operation of the regime. They will also clarify the ways in which digital businesses accredited to use the Consumer Data Right are able to employ agents to assist in providing services to their consumers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 to the Bill amends <inline font-style="italic">the Australian Charities and Not-for-Profits Commission Act 2012 </inline>to encourage charities that may have been responsible for past institutional child sexual abuse to participate in the National Redress Scheme for Institutional Child Sexual Abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This measure will amend the definition of basic religious charity (BRC) to remove a religious institution's eligibility to be classified as a BRC if it has a claim against it under the Redress Scheme, and does not join the Redress Scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A BRC that fails to take reasonable steps to participate in the Redress Scheme would be subject to existing compliance powers, including deregistration. Deregistration would result in the entity losing access to a suite of Commonwealth benefits and concessions, including tax concessions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This amendment is consistent with the public's expectation that generous support from the Commonwealth by way of charitable tax concessions should not be provided to institutions who fail to fulfil their moral obligation to survivors of child sexual abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 4 to the Bill makes a number of amendments to Treasury portfolio legislation to:</para></quote>
<list>ensure it operates in accordance with the policy intent;</list>
<list>improve administrative outcomes or remedy unintended consequences; and</list>
<list>correct technical or drafting defects.</list>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments further the Government's commitment to the care and maintenance of Treasury laws and will make it easier for Australians to comply with current laws.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline> as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Territories Legislation Amendment Bill 2020, Bankruptcy (Estate Charges) Amendment (Norfolk Island) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>109</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <p>
              <a href="r6601" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Territories Legislation Amendment Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6600" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Bankruptcy (Estate Charges) Amendment (Norfolk Island) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>109</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>110</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The speech</inline> <inline font-style="italic">es</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Today I introduce into the Parliament, legislation which further improves and strengthens the governance of Australia's territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Territories Legislation Amendment Bill will amend a range of Commonwealth legislation to improve the legal frameworks applying in the territories of Norfolk Island, Christmas Island, the Cocos (Keeling) Islands and the Jervis Bay Territory.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This is another key step in the Australian Government's ongoing work to foster strong and sustainable communities in our territories, with rights and responsibilities comparable to other Australian communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These territories are an important part of our nation, home to some of Australia's most diverse communities and featuring spectacular natural environments.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Their governance arrangements are also unique, with the Australian Government responsible for state and Commonwealth-level functions provided for under an umbrella of Commonwealth law.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Strengthened applied laws arrangements</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To enable the delivery of state-type functions, Commonwealth legislation allows for the laws of other Australian jurisdictions to be applied in these territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For instance, in Christmas Island and the Cocos (Keeling) Islands the laws of Western Australia have been applied. This supports the delivery of services such as health and education in these territories by the Government of Western Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will amend Commonwealth legislation to ensure these applied laws operate effectively, and support service delivery in these territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This includes arrangements for delegating certain powers under applied laws to government officials working in the territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">On Norfolk Island, Christmas Island and the Cocos (Keeling) Islands, local governments provide a range of services to their communities under applied laws.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Currently, local government officials' powers must be delegated to them by the responsible minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These delegations need to be regularly updated to make sure they are current. If laws change, there is a risk officials will not have the powers they need to do their jobs.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments in the Bill will address this by automatically delegating relevant powers under applied laws to local government officials. This common-sense approach will allow officials to do their work, without having to worry about whether or not their delegation is current.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will make other amendments to account for the operation of applied laws in these territories. Where Commonwealth officials in the territories make decisions under applied laws, these will now be open to judicial review in the federal courts.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This improves the rights of people living in the territories and will ensure decisions being made by Commonwealth officials are fair and correct.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Personal information collected from people living in the territories under applied laws will now be clearly protected by the Australian Privacy Principles.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Other changes will ensure personal information collected by local governments and other local public bodies is managed in a way that is consistent with the Privacy Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments will improve the efficiency of the applied laws frameworks and increase the rights and protections available to those living in Australia's territories.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Norfolk Island</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">For Norfolk Island, the Bill will also make further significant improvements to its legal framework.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In March 2015, the Australian Government announced comprehensive changes in Norfolk Island.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This was to address issues of sustainability which arose from the former governance arrangements which required the Norfolk Island government to deliver all local, state and Commonwealth government services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As a result, the standard of services and infrastructure on Norfolk Island was well below the standard other Australians would typically expect. The roads and ports were deteriorating, the health and aged-care facility was outdated and accessing social security and other support services was difficult.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2016, most Commonwealth legislation was extended to Norfolk Island. This gave people living on the Island access to the age pension, Medicare, Pharmaceutical Benefits and the same social security payments as everybody else in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Residents of Norfolk Island were also brought under the Australian taxation system, replacing a range of inefficient taxes and charges being levied by the former Norfolk Island government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Given the significant impact and scope of these changes, some requirements are being phased-in gradually to allow the community time to adjust. A good example of this is the superannuation guarantee paid by employers which is being phased in over a 12‑year period, starting at 1% and increasing by 1% each year.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The extension of some legislation was also deferred as part of a staged transition. The introduction of more laws with this Bill will further support Norfolk Island's growth and development.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will allow the Australian Government to enter into an agreement with any state or territory government for the delivery of state-type services. This amendment provides flexibility, in case it is needed in the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To support economic growth, the Bill will transition companies currently registered under local Norfolk Island law to the Commonwealth corporations framework.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This will reduce red‑tape for Norfolk Island businesses and make it easier for them to access mainland suppliers, financial and other support.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In addition, the Bill will extend the Commonwealth bankruptcy system to Norfolk Island, improving provisions for people experiencing bankruptcy and increasing protections for creditors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In Australia, bankruptcy normally lasts for 3 years. For people declared bankrupt on Norfolk Island, if certain conditions cannot be met, they could remain bankrupt indefinitely.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will make sure people declared bankrupt on Norfolk Island are treated the same as if they were living elsewhere in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As we all deal with the effects of the COVID-19 pandemic, bringing people and businesses on Norfolk Island in under the Commonwealth umbrella means they will have access to the wide range of support and stimulus packages the Government is providing.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Another important change will be to broadcasting. The Bill will bring Norfolk Island radio and television stations under Commonwealth broadcasting law. This will allow the Australian Communications and Media Authority to issue broadcasting licences and plan for more broadcasting services in the future.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Through this, Norfolk Island's local media will be better connected to Australia's network of community broadcasters and receive better support for their services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These changes are a continuation of the good work already undertaken to improve the standard of services being delivered in Norfolk Island, and will help support its future growth.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In the last few years the Government has improved access to childcare and other family and social support services. The Island's health, education, transport and other community infrastructure has also been upgraded to make it safer and more accessible.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">An example of this is the improvements to Cascade Pier completed in 2018 which now provides safer and more reliable access to Norfolk Island for cargo transfers and cruise ship passengers, both of vital importance to Norfolk Island's economy.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill, if passed, represents the Government's ongoing commitment to improving services and supporting economic development and sustainability, not only in Norfolk Island, but in all of Australia's territories.</para></quote>
<para>THE BANKRUPTCY (ESTATE CHARGES) AMENDMENT (NORFOLK ISLAND) BILL</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bankruptcy (Estate Charges) Amendment (Norfolk Island) Bill will extend the application of the <inline font-style="italic">Bankruptcy (Estate Charges) Act 1997</inline> to Norfolk Island.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill is consequential to amendments in the Territories Legislation Amendment Bill which extends the Commonwealth bankruptcy system to Norfolk Island.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will ensure that any insolvencies on Norfolk Island are treated consistently and attract the same estate charges as all other insolvencies administered under the Commonwealth Bankruptcy Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Together, the bills will improve provisions for people experiencing bankruptcy and increase protections for creditors. This will ensure people declared bankrupt on Norfolk Island are treated the same as they would be in the rest of Australia.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Financial Sector Reform (Hayne Royal Commission Response) Bill 2020, Corporations (Fees) Amendment (Hayne Royal Commission Response) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>111</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <p>
              <a href="r6630" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Financial Sector Reform (Hayne Royal Commission Response) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6629" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Corporations (Fees) Amendment (Hayne Royal Commission Response) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>111</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>112</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator COLBECK</name>
    <name.id>00AOL</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The speech</inline> <inline font-style="italic">es</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">On 4 February 2019, the Government released its response to the Royal Commission into Misconduct in the Banking, Superannuation and Financial Services Industry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Royal Commission made 76 recommendations, 54 of which were directed to the Government. The Government also made 18 additional commitments in its response to the Royal Commission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Financial Sector Reform (Hayne Royal Commission Response) Bill 2020 continues to fulfil the Government's commitment to implement the recommendations, with this Bill implementing 21 of the commitments made by the Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 to the Bill provides that certain provisions of financial services industry codes be made 'enforceable code provisions' where provisions within industry codes relate to specific commitments made by a code subscriber to the consumer. Provisions within industry codes that are broader in their nature and seek to make general, in-principle, commitments regarding industry practices will not form enforceable code provisions. The schedule also provides for the establishment of mandatory financial services industry codes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 2 to the Bill will improve the protections for consumers with life insurance contracts by preventing insurers from inappropriately cancelling life insurance contracts on the basis of non-disclosure or misrepresentation unless the insurer can show it would not have entered into the contract.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This schedule also replaces the existing duty of disclosure with a duty for consumers to take reasonable care not to make a misrepresentation to an insurer. The new duty appropriately aligns with a layperson's knowledge of insurance. It removes the need for consumers to guess what the insurer may require to be disclosed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 to the Bill implements the Government's commitment to an industry-wide deferred sales model for add-on insurance products. The Royal Commission highlighted that some of these products often represent poor value for consumers and are sold using pressure-selling tactics. The schedule ensures consumers are given four days to consider their purchase of insurance policies with these characteristics.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Recognising that immediate access to add-on insurance products may be required in some limited instances, this Bill provides for regulations to exempt products from the deferred sales model. One such exemption will be provided to add-on travel insurance products. A commencement date of the later of 5 October 2021 or the day after Royal Assent has been provided to facilitate this process and to allow affected stakeholders to make the necessary system changes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 4 to the Bill provides ASIC with the power to impose a cap on the commissions that can be paid for add-on insurance products sold by vehicle dealers to prevent inappropriate sales of add-on insurance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 5 to the Bill prohibits the hawking of superannuation and insurance products. Consistent with the Final Report of the Royal Commission that 'no financial product should be hawked to retail clients', the new hawking rules apply to all financial products, including managed investment schemes and securities. A number of exceptions will be allowed where the risk to consumers is low.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 6 to the Bill will protect consumers by preventing organisations from calling themselves an "insurer" unless they are a regulated insurer, and preventing anyone from selling a product as "insurance" unless it is an insurance product.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 7 to the Bill will enhance consumer protections by making insurance claims handling a financial service. This will apply Australian Financial Services licensing requirements, such as general conduct obligations, to entities that handle and settle insurance claims, enabling ASIC to take regulatory action to prevent and address poor conduct and consumer outcomes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 8 to the Bill will prohibit superannuation trustees from having a duty to act in the interests of another except those arising from its role as trustee. This will address the Royal Commission's concern that such duties could conflict with its duty to act in the best interests of their superannuation fund members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 9 to the Bill amends the roles and responsibilities of the superannuation regulators, including by expanding ASIC's role as a consumer protection regulator. This schedule will also expand the Australian Financial Services Licensing regime to cover all activities undertaken by superannuation trustees. This will ensure ASIC has access to its full suite of enforcement tools, and strengthen ASIC's ability to take enforcement action and ensure fair remediation of members.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Importantly, the Australian Prudential Regulation Authority (APRA) will remain the regulator responsible for prudential regulation and member outcomes in superannuation, including licensing and supervision of trustees.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedules 10 and 11 to the Bill strengthen the existing breach reporting regime for Australian Financial Services Licensees, and establish an equivalent breach reporting regime for Australian Credit Licensees. Strengthened breach reporting requirements will ensure more misconduct is reported, reports are provided in a timely manner, and strengthen ASIC's ability to take any necessary enforcement action.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The schedules also amend the law to require both Australian Financial Services and Credit Licensees to investigate misconduct by financial advisers and mortgage brokers, and remediate clients who have suffered loss or damage as a result of that misconduct. This ensures that consumers are being promptly and effectively remediated where necessary.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, the schedules amend the law to establish a protocol for reference-checking and information sharing about financial advisers and mortgage brokers to ensure they past misconduct is not hidden from their new employer.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 12 to the Bill puts in place a statutory obligation for ASIC and APRA to cooperate with each other, share information on request, and notify the other whenever either forms the belief that a breach in respect of which the other has enforcement responsibility has occurred. These changes will improve collaboration between ASIC and APRA and ensure enforcement and supervisory decisions are based on all available information. This schedule also further formalises ASIC's meeting procedures and aligns them with those in the APRA Act to reinforce the centrality of decision-making in ASIC, and improve governance.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Legislative and Governance Forum on Corporations was consulted in relation to a number of the amendments and has provided approval as required under the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Agreement 2002</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Implementation of these reforms, as recommended by the Royal Commission, is a critical component of restoring trust and confidence in Australia's financial system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measures are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<para>CORPORATIONS (FEES) AMENDMENT (HAYNE ROYAL COMMISSION RESPONSE) BILL 2020</para>
<para>SECOND READING SPEECH</para>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill forms part of the implementation of the Government's commitment to an industry-wide deferred sales model for all add-on insurance products. Under this legislation, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission will have the ability to charge a fee for applications made to exempt the four day consumer consideration period, for the purchase of insurance sold in addition to a related product.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Legislative and Governance Forum on Corporations was consulted in relation to the amendments and has approved them as required under the <inline font-style="italic">Corporations Agreement 2002</inline>.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measure are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Australia's Foreign Relations (State and Territory Arrangements) Bill 2020, Foreign Investment Reform (Protecting Australia's National Security) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>113</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <p>
              <a href="r6596" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Australia's Foreign Relations (State and Territory Arrangements) Bill 2020</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6614" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Foreign Investment Reform (Protecting Australia's National Security) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Returned from the House of Representatives</title>
            <page.no>113</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>113</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Electoral Matters Committee</title>
          <page.no>113</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>113</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>113</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2020-2021, Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2020-2021, Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2020-2021</title>
          <page.no>113</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <p>
              <a href="r6603" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation Bill (No. 1) 2020-2021</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a href="r6604" type="Bill">
                <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation Bill (No. 2) 2020-2021</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a href="r6605" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Appropriation (Parliamentary Departments) Bill (No. 1) 2020-2021</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Assent</title>
            <page.no>113</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</title>
        <page.no>114</page.no>
        <type>REGULATIONS AND DETERMINATIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Industry Research and Development (Forestry Recovery Development Fund Program) Instrument 2020</title>
          <page.no>114</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Disallowance</title>
            <page.no>114</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Industry Research and Development (Forestry Recovery Development Fund Program) Instrument 2020, made under the Industry Research and Development Act 1986, be disallowed [F2020L01081].</para></quote>
<para>This motion is to disallow a $40 million fund, the Forestry Recovery Development Fund Program, that would continue to prop up damaging and devastating native forest logging. Let's be clear why I am moving today to disallow this fund: it is about protecting our native forests after they have suffered a devastating bushfire season. The Greens of course want to see funding for bushfire recovery, both for our communities and for our forests that were devastated by last summer's fires. These fires were turbocharged by our climate crisis. These fires devastated 20 per cent of our mainland forests, the greatest proportion of forests on any continent killed by fire that has been known worldwide. But we should not be funding so-called bushfire recovery that involves clear-felling our precious forests and continuing to kill our precious wildlife, destroying their habitat just at the time when they need to be nurtured and carefully managed back to health as they recover from these massive and intense fires.</para>
<para>I also want to be clear that our reason for moving tonight to disallow this fund is that it doesn't differentiate between native forest logging and plantation forestry. If only the government and the Labor Party would see that there's a difference between native forest logging and plantation forestry then we would be well on the way to the forest wars that have been raging for decades being over. We wouldn't be having debates like this if the government and the Labor Party came to terms with the reality that we're now in a situation where almost 90 per cent of the wood products that are being produced in Australia come from plantations. The vast majority of the jobs in the timber industry rely on timber from plantations. Plantations that are established appropriately and sustainably on already cleared land are supported across this parliament. In contrast, what is also known—what is so clear in the science and now in legal decisions—is that native forest logging devastates our precious forests. It kills animals, it destroys carbon stores, it smashes up soil, it has massive impacts on water quality and quantity and it loses money. It needs government subsidies to continue.</para>
<para>Like whaling, native forest logging has had its day and we need to stop logging our native forests as soon as possible and support the relatively few workers who are still employed in native forest logging to shift to other work, particularly the prospects in plantation forestry. Yet this Forestry Recovery Development Fund Program would provide $40 million for forestry operations without differentiating between devastating native forest logging and the plantation industry. This is on top of a $15 million fund that would subsidise the transport of logs that have been logged after fire has raged through, so-called 'salvage logging', although 'looting logging' is a much better term for this. Then there's an extra $10 million for a salvage log storage fund, again subsidising the looting of logging after fire. I repeat: we don't know how much of this $65 million will be spent subsidising destructive native forest logging compared with a contribution to plantations. The guidelines for this fund do not differentiate between the two. What we do know is that there is $40 million that the guidelines say will 'assist privately owned wood processing facilities to recover and rebuild using innovation and product diversification'. However, that includes:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… to develop new wood products, or secure your capacity to deliver existing products, that you intend to sell solely or mainly into interstate and/or international markets …</para></quote>
<para>In other words, it is providing $40 million that can be used to help the wood products industries to keep on doing what they are currently doing: continuing to log and woodchip our precious native forests and send off those woodchips to China and Japan. This is securing capacity to deliver existing products into market.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Duniam interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Duniam, I hear your interjections. I'd like to believe that it won't be that—that, if we are investing taxpayers' money after the fires, it would be spent on developments that meet the triple bottom line of being good socially, good for jobs and the community; good economically, supporting regional economic development; and good environmentally—that is, in the wood products sector, supporting the developing of new and innovative plantation based products that would be helping the transition out of native forests and into plantations, which would help end the forestry wars so that we don't have to have yelling across this chamber.</para>
<para>But I say again: this fund does not differentiate between native forest logging and plantation forestry. This fund will be subsidising the clear-fell logging of our precious forests in Gippsland and south-east New South Wales— logging that is already being subsidised to the hilt by state and federal governments and is destroying the wildlife habitat of koalas and critically endangered species like swift parrots, Leadbeater's possums and other endangered animals, including birds. It will be subsidising this logging at a time when our forests and our wildlife suffered so much in last summer's fires—when we had three billion animals killed across the country.</para>
<para>I want to emphasise what type of logging this $40 million will be facilitating. Just yesterday, we saw reporting about concerns raised by the environment regulator in Victoria about logging after last summer's fires. I'd like to read key sections of that reporting:</para>
<quote><para class="block">An initial letter in January suggested that logging should be modified "in response to the changed conditions for vulnerable and threatened species across the state". A follow-up in February said the scale of the damage meant it was justified to stop commercial logging until there was more information that reduced scientific uncertainty about the risk of permanent damage.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">But the—</para></quote>
<para>state government—</para>
<quote><para class="block">conservation regulator report released under FOI laws said the fires had created uncertainty over whether the existing code requirements and management were enough to maintain biological diversity within the state’s forests.</para></quote>
<para>That's on top of what we know about the damage caused by logging forests that have been burnt by fires. A series of studies have examined the ecological impacts of post-fire salvage logging in wet forests. The Australian Academy of Science summarises the impacts of logging of burnt forests, saying that it:</para>
<list>Has long-term impacts on key soil nutrients and soil structure.</list>
<list>Significantly reduces the abundance of large old trees, which are key attributes of forests critical to the survival of numerous species.</list>
<list>Impairs forest recovery following bushfires.</list>
<list>Alters plant communities including through a significant reduction in populations of important resprouting taxa such as tree ferns.</list>
<list>Significantly reduces bird species richness.</list>
<para>It:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… can have pronounced effects on the condition of aquatic ecosystems … and promote short-term fire risks.</para></quote>
<para>This is the Australian Academy of Science saying that this is what so-called salvage logging—that is, looting logging—does.</para>
<para>Of course, all of this comes on top of the momentous court decision in Victoria earlier this year, where the Federal Court found that logging damages or destroys habitat critical to the survival of the critically endangered Leadbeater's possum and the threatened greater gliders, and they awarded costs against VicForests—that is, that logging is illegal.</para>
<para>These findings go to the heart of the issue here, because this funding will be subsidising ongoing devastating logging that is recognised as being destructive and that has been found to be illegal by the Federal Court, by the government conservation regulator. It was found to be destructive by scientists, who have put decades of research into these forests. It is considered to be destructive by First Nations people. It is considered to be destructive by communities who are seeing their precious forests being devastated and are putting their bodies on the line to protect them—brave individual community groups like Environment East Gippsland—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! The time for this debate has expired.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>115</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Intelligence and Security Legislation Amendment (Implementing Independent Intelligence Review) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>115</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <a href="s1256" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Intelligence and Security Legislation Amendment (Implementing Independent Intelligence Review) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report from Committee</title>
            <page.no>115</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BROCKMAN</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—On behalf of the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee, I present the report of the committee on the Intelligence and Security Legislation Amendment (Implementing Independent Intelligence Review) Bill 2020 together with the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> record of proceedings and documents presented to the committee.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020</title>
          <page.no>115</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" background="" style="">
            <a href="r6608" type="Bill">
              <p class="HPS-SubDebate" style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>115</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator BILYK</name>
    <name.id>HZB</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I was interrupted, I was discussing some of the examples of how there's a complete lack of evidence that this card creates positive change for the people who will be subjected to it. In their submission to the Senate inquiry on another government bill related to the cashless debit card, the Arnhem Land Progress Aboriginal Corporation wrote:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The ALPA Board of Directors is disappointed that the Government is moving forward and expanding this oppressive policy when there is no evidence demonstrating that it creates positive change for the people who will be subjected to it. This erosion of people's choice and control over their own lives destroys any sense of self-determination, it is an attack on their basic rights …</para></quote>
<para>There are people who have no history of addiction, who get no benefit from the card, yet they end up losing their financial autonomy while suffering the stigma of having to take the card out to pay for things. Jocelyn, a disability pension recipient in Ceduna, wrote in an online article about this stigma and lack of autonomy:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Imagine going out for a coffee with friends and having to use the card. Imagine buying the local paper … and having to use the card. Imagine not having cash for something you really love on the local buy/sell/exchange. Imagine trying to sell some items to get cash to survive. Imagine every time you pull the card out that you are labelled as a loser. Imagine pulling out a card that doesn’t always work! Even if you have a dollar balance on the card, it refuses you at the checkout, with people waiting behind you in the queue at the local supermarket. Imagine going to the chemist and the card will not work for your prescriptions. All of this has happened to me, and others, many times.</para></quote>
<para>I ask those on the other side: how would you like to live like that? I challenge any of you to live like that for a month and then come in and say you think that it's alright to do so. If somebody in your suburb has an addiction to drugs and alcohol, maybe you should have to be on the card! I don't think you'd like it. Another story reported in an article in <inline font-style="italic">The</inline><inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline> in September last year involved a single mother of four who wasn't able to send one of her children on a school camp because she had restricted access to cash. The same mother couldn't buy second-hand textbooks for university and had to abandon her nursing placement because she was unable to buy a stethoscope online with her card.</para>
<para>Let me be clear: Labor are not opposed entirely to income management, but we know that the approach works best when it's targeted and when it's voluntary. An evaluation of income management in the Northern Territory found that compulsory income management does not work but that voluntary income management might. For example, in Cape York, the local community is applying income management based on individual circumstances. In contrast to the approach in this bill, the government themselves wrote in favour of voluntary income management in a document presented to the United Nations Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights. The document said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… there are more positive results associated with people who volunteer, as they have made a choice to change their behaviour and receive assistance, positive findings have been found for people who have been referred for Income Management by a social worker or a child protection officer.</para></quote>
<para>Two-thirds of the people who will be forced onto the cashless debit card—that is, 23,000 out of 34,000—are First Nations people. As Aboriginal Peak Organisations Northern Territory pointed out in their submission to the inquiry:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Income management cannot provide a transition to employment in locations where few employment opportunities exist and those that exist are largely undertaken by outsiders. Instead, for many Aboriginal residents of the NT, particularly those living remotely, compulsory income management is long term and, regardless of a person's lifestyle and financial management capacity, it is almost impossible to exit the program.</para></quote>
<para>The submission said an evaluation conducted by the Social Policy Research Centre had found:</para>
<quote><para class="block">90.2 per cent of those on income management in the Northern Territory were Indigenous and 76.8 per cent of those were on compulsory income management. More than 60% of this group were on income management for more than 6 years. Of those Indigenous people on compulsory income management, a mere 4.9% gained an exemption compared to 36.3% of non-indigenous people.</para></quote>
<para>This bill is an absolute insult to First Nations Australians. It's discriminatory and it's judgemental. Yesterday I heard in the chamber from Senator Hanson:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We talk in this chamber about the sexual abuse of children. That comes from people who are inebriated—it may be alcohol; it may be drugs.</para></quote>
<para>I really want to point out to Senator Hanson that the sexual abuse of children is perpetrated by people from all walks of life, and they certainly don't have to be inebriated or on drugs. I feel that this comment was gratuitous and plainly wrong. Sadly, child sexual abuse is conducted by people from all walks of life—judges, doctors, schoolteachers and even politicians—so don't try to paint one group of people as responsible. The view that many people on a welfare payment are on drugs and alcohol or have a gambling addiction is also highly ignorant.</para>
<para>I will leave the final word on the problems with the cashless debit card to a member in the other place who, in her speech in the second reading debate on this bill, outlined many of the same concerns I have. The member said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The cashless debit card program is a punitive measure enacted on the presumption all welfare recipients within the trial areas are incapable of managing their finances and require the government's assistance.</para></quote>
<para>She went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">It's somewhat ironic to me that you can essentially have an income management assessment trial for half a decade that can't show conclusive results and yet there are a number of evidence based programs that cost far less and that have demonstrably worked …</para></quote>
<para>This contribution was from the Liberal member for Bass, Mrs Archer. Could there be any greater indication that this is a bad bill than that it is opposed by one of the government's own members? Unfortunately, Mrs Archer didn't have the courage of her convictions and failed to vote against the bill, a vote that would have seen it defeated. Shame on her!</para>
<para>Despite the overwhelming evidence against compulsory income management, there are government members and senators who have publicly advocated for a national rollout. We know that this is the government's ultimate plan and this bill is just the beginning. This has caused a number of welfare recipients to worry whether they will be placed on compulsory income management. They are people who have no history of drug, alcohol or gambling addiction and no need for any intervention in how they spend their money. In her second reading contribution, Mrs Archer spoke about the anxiety that pensioners in northern Tasmania express about having their income managed.</para>
<para>This bill is a prime example of this government rejecting evidence based policy in favour of an ideological bent. It will not address Indigenous disadvantage; it will not help close the gap. Instead of empowering communities, it rejects the government's stated partnership approach in favour of punitive and counterproductive measures. All it will do is perpetuate distress, anxiety and stigma for those subject to compulsory income management. I urge the crossbench in particular to reject this bill and I urge the Senate to reject this bill. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. The primary purpose of this bill is to transition income management participants in the Northern Territory and Cape York regions onto the cashless debit card, the CDC, and to allow the CDC to continue as a permanent measure in the existing trial sites of Ceduna, the East Kimberley, the Goldfields, and Bundaberg and Hervey Bay. Labor will not be supporting this bill, and it is incredibly disappointing that the government is ignoring evidence to pursue this discriminatory policy. I want to associate myself with the contributions in this debate from Senators Dodson and McCarthy. This is a racist bill. Sixty-eight per cent of those who are impacted by it are First Nations people, and it is a prime example of policy being done to First Nations people and not with them. They are disproportionately affected, and now the government is pushing through the legislation.</para>
<para>The evidence presented to the inquiry into this bill is largely unsubstantiated and anecdotal, but those sitting opposite are happy to ignore the facts and expand the CDC program based on their distorted political ideology. There has been minimal engagement with the communities being impacted, and now the government plans to roll out this scheme permanently. The dichotomy between the CDC program and the National Agreement on Closing the Gap, which claims to emphasise genuine partnerships and shared decision-making between governments and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, is stark. This card is not the answer to overcoming systemic social issues. There needs to be greater emphasis on employment, training pathways, transitional housing, financial counselling and addiction support.</para>
<para>Labor supports voluntary participation in this scheme, and the government themselves have conceded that there are positive results associated with people who volunteer for this program. But forcing people to use cashless debit cards is demeaning and removes their personal liberties. I myself have been a recipient of government assistance and have experienced the stigma associated with being on social services support. This system of income management takes away independence and a sense of pride. I understand why, if they haven't had this lived experience, so many on the other side have no understanding or concept of what the forced adoption of this program is like for individuals—to have your individual rights taken away from you, to be stigmatised when you're going to purchase something, not to be able to have cash to buy second-hand furniture, and not to be able to give care and support to those people who have been neglected by governments of all persuasions over a long period of time. To now try and enforce such action is unforgivable.</para>
<para>As uncovered at the Senate estimates, the minister, Senator Ruston, commissioned a review undertaken at a cost of $2.5 million, and she admitted that, prior to the introduction of this bill, she hadn't even read the report. This really goes to show the attitude and, quite frankly, the arrogance of this government. They are not serious about evidence based policymaking. It needs to be noted that the government did not make the University of Adelaide evaluation public in time for it to be considered by the inquiry into this bill. Why not? The failure to permit the inquiry to examine this evidence is a very clear indication the government's pursuit of this bill is ideologically driven. The evidence presented in the report has not been substantiated. It is flimsy and mostly anecdotal. It is not rigorous or reliable, and there has been nothing to produce which can show the accuracy of the claims made by the government about the way in which this card has had a positive effect on any community across Australia. In fact, significant harm has been associated with compulsory broad based income management. Most recently, an independent analysis of the CDC in Ceduna, conducted by the University of South Australia, concluded:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… had no substantive effect on the available measures for the targeted behaviours of gambling or intoxicant abuse. There is evidence for an increase in total store spending.</para></quote>
<para>Here the data showed:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… increased spending on healthy foods, but there is an overall shift toward a higher proportion of spending on less healthy foods.</para></quote>
<para>It is crystal clear that those sitting opposite have cherrypicked the submissions and accounts, and what has resulted is a flawed assessment of the measurement of the effectiveness of the cashless debit card. This government is not interested in evidence. There is no evidence that this scheme is working to its desired effect. There has been intervention in the Northern Territory for 13 years, and there is nothing to suggest that income management has had any positive effect. We cannot determine whether positive gains are attributable to the CDC as opposed to other interventions, such as alcohol restrictions or increases in social security payments during COVID, yet the government still wants to progress this bill.</para>
<para>There have been several inquiries into the efficiency and the effectiveness of the CDC, and none of them have found any clear evidence of the effectiveness of this policy—none, zero. Why is the government rushing to legislate this? We want to know what the evidence is. It's not unreasonable to expect that evidence to be presented. It concerns me that the current government is looking to continue the Intervention in the Northern Territory on a permanent basis by stealth by continuing to expand the reach of the cashless debit card into the Northern Territory. Thirteen years after the Intervention began, it is clear that such an approach to the delivery of services is a failure and has left people worse off. This government also has plans to roll out this scheme nationally, no matter what they come into this chamber and say. It established a CDC technology working group consisting of representatives from the four big banks, supermarkets, EFTPOS and Australia Post. This is a precursor for a national rollout, which Senator Canavan has openly endorsed. I know that the people in my home state of Tasmania will not welcome this news.</para>
<para>Bridget Archer, the Liberal member for Bass, has spoken out against her own government, condemning the program, but the reality is she cannot have her cake and eat it too. You can't say one thing in the chamber in the other place and then go back to your community and say something else. We get paid to make decisions. Politicians are paid to come here and vote on legislation and put forward good policy. The member for Bass has failed her community because she doesn't have the courage of her convictions. She wimped out. If she had not abstained from voting, if she had had a backbone and voted against her government, we would not be here tonight debating this flawed legislation. It is not good enough to pretend you care and to give an impassioned speech if you aren't prepared to stand up and to vote bad legislation down. That's the reality of the life of a politician. Sometimes you've got to make tough decisions.</para>
<para>Parliamentarians go to parliament to vote and to make policy. It is unforgivable that somebody who has made an impassioned plea in her speech in the House of Representatives about what it's like to live on welfare—we all commend her for being honest and frank about her experience, and we admire her for being elected to the House of Representatives, but you have to be able to walk the walk not just talk the talk. In keeping with that logic, what is the point of Mrs Archer being the member for Bass if she doesn't have the backbone to stand up and vote on behalf of the people who elected her?</para>
<para>I'm sure that the community will not forget this, particularly when we see this rolled out nationally and when Tasmanian welfare recipients are forced onto a CDC.</para>
<para>Labor is calling on the government to listen to and engage with communities, including First Nations communities; invest in job creation; and pursue evidence based services and partnerships rather than base their policy on distorted ideology. Continuing to pursue the CDC and broad based compulsory income management is not likely to have any positive impact but rather will remove individuals' liberties and take away human rights. The government needs to stop its pursuit of action without cause and abandon its technology working group and preparations for a national rollout of the CDC. The Labor Party is incredibly disappointed by the government's insistence on this bill. Not only is it counter to the Prime Minister's commitment to a new partnership approach to closing the gap, but the government has no foundation to argue that this program will deliver better social outcomes for those communities. It's not consistent with genuine partnerships. This program limits freedom of choice, discriminates against First Nations people and has no sound evidence to prove its effectiveness. The scheme limits the human rights to social security, to a private life and to equality.</para>
<para>This inquiry did not engage in meaningful two-way discussion, and the government will now attempt to roll out this program with little information or guidance offered. In order to overcome social issues and welfare dependency in these communities, a bottom-up approach which emphasises genuine engagement and inclusive structures of collaboration is required. It is about time that this government stops spinning its way out of accountability and engages in evidence based policies so that we can have a better outcome for all Australians.</para>
<para>I want to finish by bringing to the attention of this chamber, and particularly the government, that in the debate on the legislation which they've brought before us there have been comments and contributions that I'm embarrassed by. I'm embarrassed as an Australian senator to have heard the comments of Senator Hanson—the racist, vilifying comments that she has made in this debate. All legislation like this does is bring out racism in this country. It shines a light on the worst aspects of some of our community members. When you're an elected member of parliament—whether it's in a state parliament, in the House of Representatives or in the Senate—you have a responsibility to show leadership, and leadership means that you have to be tolerant, you have to be inclusive and you have to lead from the front. You have to show leadership. I was ashamed to sit in the chamber and in my office and to hear some of the contributions to this debate. I was ashamed of those contributions. I'm all for a debate about the merits of whether or not this legislation should be supported, but I hate to see Australians set against Australians in such a racist tone as in Senator Hanson's contribution.</para>
<para>I implore the crossbench to consider all the facts before them and to vote this legislation down. We can do better for our First Nations people. We can do better for our people who need a hand-up on welfare. No-one ever knows the circumstances in which they or one of their family members—one of their kids or grandchildren—may end up needing welfare. That's what welfare's there for: to give you a hand-up. We're a rich country. We can do so much more. We have to ensure this legislation is defeated, as it should have been in the House of Representatives. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STERLE</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I wish to make my contribution to the debate on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 and I endorse the comments of all my colleagues on this side. But I'd also acknowledge Senator O'Sullivan, who has lived and breathed this stuff and has done a lot of work in this area. Senator O'Sullivan, you know that there's a lot of difference between us. We'll probably be on opposite sides of the chamber when the vote is taken—not probably; we definitely will be. Anyway, I wanted to put that on the record.</para>
<para>It's a well-known fact that this is not the first time I've made a contribution on the cashless debit card. I've made extensive contributions on this. For those from WA who have been on another planet and don't know, I work very closely with people in the East Kimberley, and I've got some very good friends in the East Kimberley, and I want to say this very, very clearly: there is no way known that I support mandatory rollout of the cashless debit card, but I do support voluntary participation.</para>
<para>There are a couple of things I do want to say tonight. I want to talk about the Wunan Foundation and I also want to talk about who heads up the Wunan Foundation—a very dear friend of mine, Ian Trust. So let me just share this with senators. The Wunan Foundation is an Aboriginal development organisation in the East Kimberley region of Western Australia. Wunan operates with a clear purpose and a strategy to drive long-term socioeconomic change for Aboriginal people by providing real opportunities, by investing in people's abilities and by encouraging and rewarding aspiration and self-responsibility. Wunan's efforts are guided by the philosophy that Aboriginal success grows from investing in people's ability, real opportunity and reward for effort. Wunan is committed to serving the East Kimberley region via funded programs and innovative solutions. Its programs span its strategic priorities to improve the lives of Aboriginal people, while its social enterprises are spread across the hospitality, health, business, accounting, research and evaluation, and maintenance industries. Wunan has created long-lasting partnerships with the community, business sector and government to make the East Kimberley a place where Aboriginal people can look forward to building a stronger and more independent future for themselves. Wunan's vision is to shift the current dependence on welfare among Aboriginal people in the East Kimberley from 80 per cent to 20 per cent. Wunan's purpose is to ensure that Aboriginal people in the East Kimberley enjoy the capabilities and opportunities they need to make positive choices that lead to independent and fulfilling lives—essentially, to have dreams and a real chance of achieving them.</para>
<para>The second favourite topic that I want to talk about tonight is my very, very dear friend Mr Ian Trust. Just so senators know where Ian is coming from, I will be using Ian's words in the chamber later, because the least I can do is give Ian the opportunity to have his say in this chamber—and for the people that he represents. Ian has been involved with Wunan since its inception in 1977, he's been the executive director since 2004 and he has served as chairman of the organisation since 2008. A local Gija man from Wuggubun community, Ian speaks English and Kriol, of the English Creole language family. Ian has a strong and coherent vision of a better future for Aboriginal people in the East Kimberley—a future beyond welfare and government dependency. Ian is one of the driving forces behind Wunan's key strategy of establishing a strong economic base which allows it to deliver sustainable programs to assist Aboriginal people of the East Kimberley to create better lives and a positive future for themselves. Ian has worked tirelessly to progress this vision, through initiatives such as the ATSIC Regional Council's 'future building' strategy of 1996, the East Kimberley Aboriginal Achievement Awards and reforms in the Aboriginal housing and infrastructure sector, and as executive director of Wunan Foundation. In addition to Wunan, Ian has engaged with a number of national and regional organisations that contribute to the broader objective of creating Aboriginal independence. These include the Indigenous Land Corporation, the Kimberley Development Commission and Kimberley Land Council, driving Kimberley Futures. Ian is also involved in the support and development of emerging Aboriginal leaders in the East Kimberley because he believes developing strong leaders from within the Aboriginal community is crucial to drive and maintain development strategies and ensure Aboriginal people achieve their full potential.</para>
<para>Ian is also one of the leaders of the East Kimberley Empowered Communities Group, but it's also important, I believe, that senators should also know what other positions Ian has held. Ian has been a director of Indigenous Business Australia, the IBA; a director of the Indigenous Land Corporation, the ILC; a director of Aarnja board in the west Kimberley; a board member of the North Regional TAFE; a former founding chairman of the Wunan Foundation, from 1997 to 2003; a former ATSIC commissioner for the Kimberley; and a former chair of ATSIC Wunan Regional Council.</para>
<para>As I said, I would like to quote Ian's words. Ian said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The essential quality of leadership is about faith and belief, and the vision of something better. This is the glue which holds all great nations, communities and families together. We believe our people have the potential to achieve a better quality of life than they currently have, but someone needs to believe in them. This is something university studies do not or cannot measure, but without it nothing can be achieved. This is what drives the Aboriginal people of Kununurra and Wyndham who support the CDC. We have never said the CDC is a silver bullet and that it will solve all our problems. No single strategy can do that, but it is the start we need for our people to create a better life.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Our critics keep saying that the CDC is a failure and we should go back to a system which has been an absolute failure for our people over 50 years. The payment of cash welfare benefits has not produced any tangible benefits for our people and the Closing the Gap statistics produced each year by government prove this. The success of the CDC has varied between locations. Towns such as Wyndham and Ceduna have achieved better results than towns which are more of a community hub, such as Kununurra. The influx of people from outlying communities around Kununurra and over the border who are not on the CDC distorts the outcomes in Kununurra. The problem is also compounded by the fact that each cashless debit card region has a limit on the number of participants (by legislation) who can be put on the CDC, and once this number has been reached new participants receiving benefits in the region are not put on the CDC but receive their benefits in cash.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The major positive results from the CDC in places like Kununurra is the reduction of gambling and the harassment of the elderly and vulnerable people for their money on payday. If you are a vulnerable person this outcome alone is huge. It has also helped people budget their money for the whole fortnight rather than running short of funds towards the end of the pay period to purchase food. Another advantage of the CDC is that a record of expenditure is maintained of the expenses incurred on the card. This is particularly important to monitor the spending patterns of the elderly and vulnerable people using services such as taxis. Not all taxis and other services are exploiting vulnerable people, but in the cash payment environment it is impossible to monitor if such people are being exploited, which we believe they were.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Although the achievements are modest, they are better than what we have experienced from cash welfare benefits, and we believe it is easier to build a strategy for change using the CDC as a base than cash welfare. We do not believe the CDC does any harm as participants receive the same amount of money as those on cash welfare benefits, but it has the potential to be improved over time, and that is what we need to do to build a better future for our people.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The vote for the CDC is a simple choice between trying something different which we believe can, over time, achieve change, or staying with a system which has created dependency for many Aboriginal families over generations.</para></quote>
<para>Ian, you know that I will stand with you. My party has made the decision, and I back my party's decision. I will not support the mandatory rollout. But I want to continue to see how many people actually volunteer to come into it. We must always remember that we cannot vilify those who want to do it. Who are we to think that we can make these comments, and how dare we think that we know better than they do?</para>
<para>I have read Ian's words, and I am concluding with mine. I won't be supporting the bill, but I will be doing everything I can to work with Ian and all those in the East Kimberley who voluntarily are on the card and want to make a better path for their life and, more importantly, as they say, look after the old people—but their children come first.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>19:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This week we are really starting to see this government's true colours. For months we've been hearing from the Prime Minister and many other members of his government that through this pandemic 'we're all in this together'. And for many of the last few months Australians have been in this together regardless of their political persuasions, regardless of where they live, regardless of their racial background. We have all had common cause, fighting the pandemic and making sure that all of us get through it okay and all of us come out the other side in a recovery that is shared equally among all of us. But that approach, which has been put forward over and over again by the Prime Minister, has this week come to a screaming halt.</para>
<para>This week, despite the fact that we are in the middle of the deepest recession this country has seen since the Great Depression, despite the fact that we still have well over a million Australians who are unemployed—and more still who are underemployed and not able to get the amount of work they need to get by—as we approach Christmas the government has refused to permanently increase JobSeeker for those poorest members of our community who can't find work. This week the government has maintained its position that superannuation should be cut. This week the government has introduced new laws which would actually cut workers' pay in the middle of a recession. And this week the government seeks to push through this legislation, the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, to enshrine a cashless debit card which is racially discriminatory, doesn't work and has no evidence to back it up.</para>
<para>Putting all these things together, you can see very clearly that the government no longer thinks that we are all in this together. What you can see is that the government is rapidly choosing to leave behind vast segments of the Australian community. It's leaving behind the unemployed by refusing to grant a permanent increase to JobSeeker. It's leaving behind the very essential workers we have all relied on to keep us safe, to keep us fed and to keep us healthy throughout the pandemic by cutting their pay. And it's also leaving behind some of the poorest and most remote communities in our country by forcing them, through this legislation, to remain on the cashless debit card, which so many of those communities rightly reject. It is profoundly disappointing that, in the middle of a recession, the government is so determined to leave so many people in our community behind, including through this legislation. It is a very sour way for this year to end after all the Australian community has been through.</para>
<para>This bill, as other speakers have said, will make the cashless debit card permanent in the existing trial sites of Ceduna, the East Kimberley, the Goldfields and Bundaberg and Hervey Bay in my home state of Queensland. It will also permanently replace the BasicsCard with the cashless debit card in the Northern Territory. It will replace the BasicsCard with the cashless debit card in Cape York and extend income management in Cape York until 31 December 2021, and it will make a number of other changes as well. As I and other Labor speakers have said, we will be opposing this bill because it is another example of the Morrison government leaving people behind in the middle of a recession, in the run-up to Christmas, when people are feeling more insecure about their welfare than ever before.</para>
<para>The cashless debit card has been shown over and over again, through independent research, through Senate inquiries and through other means, to be expensive, to be cumbersome, to be racially discriminatory and, arguably worst of all, to have no evidence whatsoever to back it up. It is really hard to escape the conclusion that, in the absence of evidence that this actually works, the government's determination to push on with the cashless debit card, to extend it and to make it permanent, is ideologically driven. There is no evidence to support what the government is doing. The government is doing this out of its ideology, which, despite being theoretically a small-government party, sees it dictating to people how they will live their lives and imposing a scheme that applies vastly disproportionately to Aboriginal communities and makes it harder for some of the poorest people in our community to take control of their own lives and actually get ahead.</para>
<para>When the government is asked to come up with evidence that this scheme works, it points to an evaluation of the scheme that was performed by researchers at the University of Adelaide. It cost $2½ million to commission this research, so the cost of this scheme is not just the cost of rolling out the scheme itself. The government has spent more money commissioning research, which it says backs up what it's trying to do. I'll admit that I haven't looked at this report; I haven't seen this research. Do you know what? Not one of us has, because the government won't release it. The so-called evidence base that the government has spent $2½ million commissioning is so good and so conclusive that the government won't release it.</para>
<para>Does that not tell you how weak the evidence is for this government in pushing on with this scheme? If the government actually had evidence that demonstrated that it worked, they would put it forward. They have spent money on it. They have got the report. Why continue to hide it? The only conclusion that anyone can draw is that the research does not back up what the government are doing. It would help the government's position if they could actually point to this research, take us through it, show us the pages and show us the evidence. If we saw this evidence some of us might even change our minds, but the government won't do that because they know that the research that they are relying on doesn't back it up.</para>
<para>Card users say that they can no longer buy second-hand goods online, they can't buy school uniforms at op shops and budgeting is hard because they can't put money aside in a separate account for bigger expenses. It has practical problems. When an EFTPOS machine is out at the pharmacy, the post office or the supermarket, people on the cashless debit card won't be able to get their medications, pay their bills or get food for their kids' lunches because they don't have access to their own money. Through this mechanism the government is controlling how they can spend their money and what they can spend it on.</para>
<para>As I said, one place where this cashless debit card has been rolled out is the Bundaberg-Hervey Bay region in my state of Queensland. There is no doubt that that region suffers very high levels of poverty. It's principally because it has suffered from very high levels of unemployment for a long time, certainly under this government and, to be fair, under previous governments as well. Wouldn't you think that the best solution to that would actually be for the government to get in there and create jobs and invest in some of the industries that have the potential to grow and employ people? This government is so lacking in imagination that, rather than actually doing the hard work of investing in the region and creating jobs—like the state Labor government is doing—it chooses this punitive measure of restricting people's ability to control their own lives and to control what they spend their income on and when they spend it.</para>
<para>It's no wonder that, as one example, Bundaberg-Hervey Bay mother of three Kerryn Griffis told ABC's <inline font-style="italic">7.30</inline> program:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I feel like in the Government's eyes I'm a lesser person … If my partner was to quarantine some of my money and tell me where and when I can't spend it, tell me it's for my own good … people would be screaming financial abuse. Why is it OK for the Government to do it?</para></quote>
<para>That is a very good question: why is it okay for the government to do something that, if it were being done by someone's partner, we would rightly say amounted to financial abuse? Childers single mum Hannah Leacy said she experiences problems with the cards monthly and the extension 'just makes it harder for us to become independent again and support ourselves and budget our own money'. If you actually speak to people who are on the cashless debit card—as I have done in Bundaberg through meetings with the very active group campaigning against this, who've done a fantastic job raising community awareness about the problems of this proposal—the thing that they find most hurtful is that it removes their independence.</para>
<para>Day after day, we hear members of the government and their supporters in the media and the business community say: 'Unemployed people should go and get a job. They should get off their bums. They should take some self-responsibility and get ahead in life.' But that's exactly what this government is stopping people from doing by controlling how, where and on what they can spend their income. How can you demand, on the one hand, that people show a bit more personal responsibility and get their own house in order, and then, on the other hand, say, 'But we're not going to let you choose how you spend your money, because we know what's best for you'?</para>
<para>I heard Senator O'Sullivan earlier today—and I do get along with Senator O'Sullivan on many things—saying that those who deny that the cashless debit card should stay in place are being paternalistic. I would argue that it's actually the other way around. A government saying how people should spend their income: that is the act of paternalism, and it's unbelievable to me that in 2020 it continues to go on, particularly in First Nations communities. We know, when we look at the figures, that the vast majority of people who are on the cashless debit card are from First Nations communities. Around the country, over 68 per cent of people who are on the cashless debit card are Aboriginal Australians. The percentage is obviously even higher in the Northern Territory, where it's 83 per cent, and in East Kimberley, where it's 82 per cent. If this isn't paternalism, I don't know what is.</para>
<para>Labor have been very strong in our opposition to this proposal, but we're not alone. The organisations that don't support the cashless debit card include St Vincent de Paul, the Law Council of Australia, the Queensland Council of Social Service and the Australian Council of Social Service. Aboriginal Peak Organisations NT said in their submission to the Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee inquiry on this issue:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… imposing the Cashless Debit Card on approximately 25,000 Aboriginal Territorians will fundamentally impinge on the equal enjoyment of human rights and freedoms.</para></quote>
<para>They went on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Rather than building capacity and independence, the program has had the opposite effect, by further entrenching an individual's dependence on welfare.</para></quote>
<para>There are many other organisations which, like Labor, oppose this cashless debit card.</para>
<para>As I've already said, the research that the government points to in support of its proposal doesn't stand up to scrutiny because it's not allowed to have any scrutiny. The government won't release the very piece of research that it spent $2½ million worth of taxpayers' money on, which it says supports what it's doing. But the research we do know about, which has been made public, includes research from the University of South Australia, which released a statement on 16 November this year that said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We found no substantive impact on measures of gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, crime or emergency department presentations.</para></quote>
<para>These are the things that the government say are being reduced as a result of the cashless debit card. They can't produce any evidence that backs them up, but here we have evidence, from people who've actually had a look at it and are prepared to make their research public, saying that it hasn't made a difference. They go on to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">…if there are plans to expand this scheme, we should be sure it's meeting its objectives, and the data indicates it just isn't doing that.</para></quote>
<para>If that isn't clear that the evidence to back up what the government is doing isn't there, I don't know what is.</para>
<para>In conclusion I'm very pleased, along with my Labor colleagues, to be opposing this bill. The bill is worrying not only in what it proposes for some of the poorest members of our community, particularly those in First Nations communities, but because it is another example of what we're seeing over and over again from this government—that is, now that we are, hopefully, through the worst of the COVID-19 pandemic, they are leaving so many people behind. Indigenous Australians, workers, the unemployed—that's not who this government is for.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on this rather contentious and emotive bill, the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, also with a bit of politics involved, I think. I have an engineering background, and that's the way in which I like to look at things. I like to find workable and practical solutions. And so the fundamental question for me, in whether or not to support this legislation, is: does the card work? That's the fundamental question. This card has an objective of reducing alcoholism, gambling and drug abuse amongst welfare card recipients. I think everyone would say that that's an admirable aim. But does it do that?</para>
<para>One of the problems we've got here—and, actually, I think most people recognise this—is that we do not have any empirical data, any definitive dataset, that would guide us as to whether or not it actually achieves those particular objectives. As Senator Watt indicated, there is a report that is available to the minister that hasn't been made available to other senators. We don't know what that report says, although there have been some leaks that suggest it also doesn't contain the definitive data, the objective data, that is required for the government to prove their case. What that does is leave every senator in this chamber working on anecdote. As an engineer, in the absence of data, I thought, 'How am I going to research this?' I got myself a CDC. Senators are allowed to have a CDC even though they're not welfare recipients. I think there's only one other senator that has a CDC—I think that might be Senator O'Sullivan—who's been out there and tried it and used tap and go. It's actually quite an impressive bit of technology. It replicates pretty much a credit card. A number of changes have been made to the card which get rid of some of the stigma—not all, I will tell you. Whilst I was using the card, as I travelled about, it was very easy to use, but I did go into some alcohol shops and bottle-os. I tried to use the card and got rejected. And I found myself looking for some sort of excuse as to why my card had been declined. Of course, I was then able to rip out another card and pay for a bottle of wine, or something like that.</para>
<para>I then went out and about to the coalface, because, if you're relying on anecdote, the last thing you want happening is that anecdote being infected by chinese whispers, which is what happens with distance and as messages pass from person to person. So I went to the coalface. I've got to thank—in the first instance, when I went to the Northern Territory—Senator McCarthy for inviting me up to Darwin to talk to Aboriginal corporations and Aboriginal elders and then taking me to Nhulunbuy in Arnhem Land to meet with Indigenous people in that community. I really am grateful for Senator McCarthy's assistance in that regard. I'm also grateful to Minister Ruston, who came to Ceduna with me and also facilitated me meeting a whole range of different people. Some of those people were from Indigenous communities; others were from business. But I actually stayed there a couple of days—one with Senator Ruston, one without. In the day that I was without Senator Ruston, I talked to health officials. I talked to the Aboriginal health service there. I also talked to people in the street. I talked to my neighbour on the balcony next to me in the hotel I was staying in. I must apologise to her now; I was being a little bit sneaky. When we had our conversation, I started talking about the CDC card. All of those conversations were useful in informing me. Indeed, probably the most important people I spoke to were those that were required to use the card. Senator Siewert put me in contact with people; so too did Senator McCarthy. So I did talk to people who were on the card, and, of course, through emails and people calling into my office. I actually called a number of people. I spoke to a gentleman named Frank in Mount Barker, who told me his story. He wasn't on the card. He was a very troubled person. It sounded like he had his life in order, but he was just fearful that he would end up with the card being imposed on him, which would simply add to the burden he already suffered through a disability and through having had difficult interactions with Centrelink in the past.</para>
<para>I also had a look at some of the wraparound services that go with the card. One of the really difficult things here is that you can't put your finger on whether the card is actually a major contributor or a minor contributor to something that may or may not be working. For example, in Ceduna, when you go to the bottle-o, you have to show your licence. If you come from one of the Indigenous communities, you can't purchase alcohol if, for example, you're from Oak Valley or Yalata. That's a measure that the Indigenous community has imposed upon themselves. There are also other services, such as rehab and sobering-up centres, health centres, community help centres and so forth. In trying to look at all of this, again, it's hard to work out what the card contributes to the purported benefit from the government and, indeed, how that might affect what is being said in the anecdotal information being transmitted to me.</para>
<para>I will say that in this debate and in consideration of this bill, sadly, my office was swamped with people who were quite rude about the card—quite rude about the fact that I hadn't made up my mind and that there was a possibility that I might vote against it. They were aggressive and threatening to my staff to the point where the Special Minister of State has now had to implement measures, including the AFP being involved, to make sure my staff are safe. They have been yielding threats against me as well. I engaged some of these people, trying to have a discussion with them, to have them shout down the phone at me. Some people chose to name my staff on Facebook and other social media platforms—staff that took their call and listened to what they had to say to pass on to me. I think every senator will agree with me when I say this: we have people in our offices who work for us who may actually have the same feelings or the same attitudes towards the person calling, but they very professionally represent me; they very professionally answer calls from people who may be sharing the same thoughts and opinions that they have, and they are getting abused. To all those people who have campaigned in a rude way, understand that you have not affected my decision; indeed, you have prevented other people who wanted to have their say from talking to my staff and having their concerns voiced to me. To those people who did that, please think about that in the future.</para>
<para>In the end, weighing up all the evidence, the difficulty for me is that the government has not made out its case. When I balance up everything I've seen, unfortunately, the data to support the concept that the card will achieve what it is intended to achieve is not there. It is on that basis that I will not be supporting this legislation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. It is no secret to anyone in this place that I've long been involved with the evolution of the cashless debit card. Prior to my life in politics—I was elected 18 months ago—I had spent my life working at the Minderoo Foundation. I actually led the project and the significant community consultation which underpinned the development of the cashless debit card. I spoke to people around Australia and heard their wishes and desires for their communities. The idea sprang up out of the community. It was an idea from the community before it was even thought about by the government. We took it to the government at the time and worked with the government to establish the trials.</para>
<para>I've taken the same approach since I was elected as a senator. So far, I've been to all the trial sites apart from, sadly, the Hervey Bay region in Queensland. I had planned to get there but, given the COVID restrictions, I was unable to travel there. There was a meeting in Perth just a week ago, and folks from that region came over, so I got to meet people on the ground, and I've met and spoken with many over the telephone, Zoom and those sorts of formats. The experiences of people on the ground are absolutely critical. People who are dealing with the impacts and the implementation of this card day in, day out are critical. It's a view that you really only get by being on the ground, listening to people and hearing their views. It's not a view that you can get by sitting behind a desk at a university on the east coast or from the comfort of an armchair. To really understand the challenges, you have to get out on the ground and spend time in these communities, not just fly in and fly out but spend time. I know Senator Sterle has done that over his career as a senator. When I'm in the Kimberley I hear people speak incredibly highly of you, Senator Sterle, because you are someone who understands, because you've spent the time and you've got the relationship. That's the approach that I've taken across these sites. As a senator for Western Australia, I've been working with the minister and the department to make sure we continue to improve the platform and work with communities on the ground to bring their experiences into this place. I'm proud to be part of a government which continues to support this program and is working hard to make sure that it's better.</para>
<para>This bill will extend the cashless debit card program in each of the trial sites, and it will establish the Northern Territory and Cape York areas as CDC program areas and transition income management participants in these areas to the CDC program next year. Supporting this bill is the right thing to do, but let me just deal with a few facts. Firstly, what actually is the cashless debit card? The CDC is a Visa debit card where 80 per cent of the cardholder's working age social security payments are paid into the CDC account. The remaining 20 per cent are paid into any other standard bank account. The CDC Visa card can be used at over 900,000 merchants—nearly a million merchants—across Australia, which is basically wherever there is an EFTPOS terminal. In practical terms, it works wherever Visa is accepted. The only limitation is that it won't work at a liquor store or a pub, and it can't be used to withdraw cash at an ATM.</para>
<para>I've heard those opposite saying in their contributions that this is controlling how people can spend their money. That's simply not true, because you can use this card absolutely everywhere except for a liquor store and a pub. You can purchase online. You can pay your bills. You can engage in commerce online. People have said, 'You can't buy second-hand furniture using Gumtree.' Well, you can use PayPal. There are many ways. You can even go to Centrelink and get an additional $200 a month to enable transactions that can't be covered by the cashless debit card. This means that the CDC can be used to purchase everyday items that individuals need to be able to provide for themselves and for their families. As I said, they can pay their bills. They can buy things online. They can use the card at bricks-and-mortar merchants as well. There really is actually very little impost on a cardholder, particularly when you consider that cashless and contactless payments have become the predominant way that people transact with merchants now. We've seen that accelerate significantly during this COVID pandemic. In fact, there are many cafes that won't take a cash payment. You have to use a card. Well, guess what? The CDC will work at those merchants as well. To date, the CDC has successfully blocked access to approximately 40,000 transactions. Senator Patrick said that, when he was using his card, he tried to use it at a liquor store to buy a bottle of wine, so he's possibly one of those 40,000-odd transactions that were counted when a participant was attempting to use the card at a place that was restricted.</para>
<para>This bill will allow the 25,000 people on the BasicsCard in the Northern Territory and Cape York to transition off this old and clunky technology, which is the BasicsCard, and move to a better and more ubiquitously accepted cashless debit card, which, as I stated, operates on the common Visa scheme. The BasicsCard can be very limiting for cardholders. A lot of the negative feedback that you get from people about the card is actually conflated with the BasicsCard, because the BasicsCard is a very old and clunky system. The main reason for that is that, for a merchant to be able to accept the BasicsCard, they have to opt in and sign up to an agreement with the BasicsCard provider. This results in there only being 16,000 merchants across Australia that will accept the BasicsCard, whereas, as I said before, nearly a million merchants are able to accept the cashless debit card. So it's a much, much better system.</para>
<para>If this bill passes, I look forward to seeing the people in the Northern Territory and Cape York get access to a much better system, because the government has heard of instances where people have had to travel across town to be able to make purchases because their local retailer doesn't accept the BasicsCard. But, if they're a retailer in business these days, where most people are actually opting and preferring to use contactless and cashless payments, then of course they've got an EFTPOS machine. Pretty much every merchant now has that facility. Even farmers markets have little Square or PayPal machines. They're everywhere.</para>
<para>The other fact that seems to be overlooked in this debate is that the CDC came about because the communities called for it and they designed it. How do I know this? Because I was there. I actually did it. I was part of the consultation team that saw this card initiated. I sat with the very brave members of those communities that called on the government to give this system a go. Senator Sterle spoke of one of those brave members of the community in the East Kimberley, Ian Trust. Ian is an absolute champion in that community. We're all very proud of him. He's a great Western Australian and great Australian.</para>
<para>These communities wanted to have a circuit-breaker to help them deal with the devastating impacts of the harms caused by chronic alcohol and drug use. Since being elected to this place, I've been speaking with community leaders, meeting with organisations directly involved in the delivery of this scheme and the wraparound services which support it. Their feedback has been clear, as have the results in each of the current trial sites and their respective communities. Participants in the program have reported drinking less frequently, using drugs less frequently and gambling less often. Has it removed these problems in the communities? Of course it hasn't. No-one was expecting that it would. Kids are now going to school with a belly full of food, which is helping them to get the most out of their education. Slowly these communities are starting to become stronger and more cohesive and are seeing less violence as a result of drugs and alcohol.</para>
<para>I visited a school in WA's north-west, which, not that long ago, before the cashless debit card was implemented, was providing large quantities of food at the breakfast club on a Monday morning, because these kids had not eaten all weekend. Now in that community, the food that they have to serve has decreased significantly on a Monday morning, because these kids are not coming to school as hungry. In Ceduna, Foodland reported to us that petty theft was down and that the purchase of fruit and vegetables had increased noticeably. They said people were buying groceries that they had not seen before. Their employment services provider, which is part owned by the local Indigenous corporation, reported that more people are getting into work and looking for work—they are seeing that there is something better. These are stories of locals on the ground, and the commentators and those who are opposed to the card think that we shouldn't use them because they are anecdotes. They believe they aren't a valid representation of the impact of what is actually happening on the ground, but they are important. If we aren't listening to these people, if we aren't looking at the evidence that they are putting forward to us as decision-makers and if we aren't taking their advice, then who should we be listening to?</para>
<para>We've seen the opposing position put forward on glossy reports which only use cherry-picked data. Evidence which supports the program is slammed as anecdotal, whilst anecdotes which oppose the card are somehow supported as evidence. All the views of people on the ground should be heard. Every experience is important, whether that's a good experience, a bad experience or otherwise. We've heard senators opposite say that people on this card feel demonised, targeted, disenfranchised—there is a whole list of adjectives used. Yet the primary places that I've heard these views come from are outside the trial areas. In fact, I heard Senator Walsh come in here today and speak of Helen, who opposes the card, saying it will significantly impact her. She then went on to say she is from Victoria. The CDC is not going into Victoria. If it was, it would require further legislation, because this legislation specifically lists the locations where it will be operating. The chain and campaign emails that I've received, and I know that you have received, almost always come from everywhere except these communities participating in the trial. Those opposite believe they know what is best for everyone. This is the height of paternalism, in my mind. To say to those people in these communities who want to see the continuation of the card that they don't actually know what is good for their own community—well, that is just so patronising.</para>
<para>In contrast, this government has been listening to those on the ground. We've received positive feedback and we've also received feedback on where it needs to be improved. That's why I've been working with the minister, with the banks and with the major retailers to improve the technology so that we can reduce some of the stigma that Senator Patrick was talking about and reduce some of the friction points that other senators have mentioned here today.</para>
<para>Is the CDC a silver bullet? Of course it's not, but we will continue to support the card and work with the communities to ensure that its evolution reflects what they need and what they want to see. We're continuing to do the same with the wraparound services, making sure that people can deal with addictions, that they can get the support that they need and, importantly, that they can get into a job pipeline so that we can connect them with jobs that actually exist. One of the next focuses that I'm going to have across the CDC trial sites is to make sure that we're actually seeing jobs, not welfare, as a destination. I commend this bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've always seen a lot of good in the cashless debit card. I've been out there for years talking to people about what it could do and the difference it could make. I've been in the newspapers, I've been on the radio and I've been here on the floor talking about how it could work. I've stood beside four government ministers who have tried to get this thing off the ground. I've worded them up on where the person before them got to and I've told them what the next step should be. I've supported them to get legislation passed when they needed it. Over those years, I've been running around the country meeting people who are on the card and talking to people who could be about to go on it and encouraging them to do that. My staff and I have visited Ceduna and Hervey Bay and the Goldfields and the Kimberleys multiple times just to check in to see how things are going and to follow up on whether the promises are being delivered. We've been all the way to Milingimbi Island in Arnhem Land and all the way down to Papunya, a few hours drive from Alice. I've listened to the tough guys who say they hate the card and I've heard the little old ladies whisper in my ear that it's actually putting food on the table. I've talked to mayors who say their neighbourhood has been safer and calmer and I've listened to Indigenous leaders beg me not to keep the card around. I've gotten to know the people in the communities, and I've met the kids, the mums, the dads, the aunties, the uncles, the elders and even the dogs. I've heard them out. We've had some tough conversations. I've gone down, I've sat with them on mats under those gum trees in the sweltering heat and I've asked them: 'Should I vote to make this thing permanent? Should I send it up to the Northern Territory?' I learned a lot from the answers I got to those questions.</para>
<para>The things I've heard have changed my thinking about the card and how it works. I have to be brutally honest. When I first came out swinging for the cashless debit card, I was thinking about what life was like for me when I was on Centrelink. I was living on that little bit of money that they gave me for eight years, and I know how hard it is. Every single dollar matters. You have to scrimp and you have to save and you have to do everything you possibly can to make it stretch. You have to put off paying electricity bills one week so that you can pay your rego before it expires, and you live off Weet-Bix for days on end so you can pull together enough money to pay for your kids to get some sandshoes or footy boots, just so they can get on the sporting field. You shop at Vinnies for the kids' clothes, and you have a lovely day if you can pick up a pair of surf jeans with the original price tag still on them and they're brand new. I can tell you, you don't have a lot to spend on anything that isn't rent, bills or food.</para>
<para>That's why I've always thought the card wouldn't make a big difference for people who have found a way to budget their money in a way that's good for them and their family. From their perspective, they'll keep doing what they're doing, and not much is likely to change. But if someone who is living on a tiny amount, on that little bit of money that we do get when we're on welfare, is managing to spend more than 100 bucks a fortnight on booze or pokies or drugs, there's a fair chance there'll be others around them who will go without. There's also a fair chance they're probably not doing too well. More than likely, they could probably use a bit of help. More than likely, they're in some serious trouble. Sometimes they're making a bit of trouble for the people around them as well. The thing is, I know what it looks like. I recognise addiction. I've watched people I love turn into shells of themselves. I know how to spot when someone has been using again, even if it's been a while since their last hit. I see it in their eyes by the way they put their sentences together and the tone of their voice. When someone you love gets like that, they do not make good decisions and they start doing things they would never have done if their addiction hadn't taken their will. They lose sight of who they are and they lose sight of what they care about, and each day blurs into the next. Someone like that will easily blow every dollar they have to feed their cravings. They have no boundaries and they are beyond thinking about the consequences, and every bit of money they get hold of will find its way to the dealer, the bottle shop or the poker machine. I know all of this, and I will do anything—absolutely anything—to make it stop for every single Australian family that has been through this or is going through this across the country. I'd do anything to stop the absolute tragedy and heartbreak that comes from losing someone you love to an addiction. That's where I come from on this thing.</para>
<para>That's why, when I heard about this card, I was so hopeful that it could help. That's why I wanted to give this card a shot. It gave me hope that things could change, and that's the reason I've been the face of this thing for years. I've spoken out so loudly about the good I've seen from the card. Sometimes it feels like people out there forget that it's actually coalition policy and not mine. Somewhere along the way it became the Jacqui Lambie cashless debit card, and I didn't mind that for a while. I was prepared to take that. I still don't mind, I suppose. I know the card could do a lot of good. I've seen kids going back to school in some of these places, and I've seen, as Senator O'Sullivan said, food on the table. I've watched those elders and those women stop being abused.</para>
<para>But I've always said to the government: if you want to make this thing happen, you can't let the card be the only thing you do. It's not a magic wand. You can't wave it at people and expect things to somehow get better, because the problems that you see in the trial sites need a lot more than the cashless debit card to fix, and that's what I heard every time I went to the trial sites. I heard it in the Northern Territory too. Those people up there can't live better lives with just the cashless debit card. They need jobs, they need medical facilities, they need counsellors and they need skills training. They need the government to quit pulling the rug from under them by constantly funding short-term projects that never have enough time to get up and running and actually make a difference. The cashless debit card was never going to solve those problems, but it could have been a way to start making change. If it had come with the right funding so that people could get trained up, it could have made a real difference. If it had come with a jobs package to help people get off welfare, we could have made a fresh start for those people in those trial sites. But I've come to realise that the commitment from the government to make that happen has never really been there.</para>
<para>Take Ceduna. To be fair, the community have actually been given a lot of money since they opted into the trial—first in, first served—and good on them for having the courage to do that. I can tell you that's probably where you'll see the biggest change, because that's where we invested to start with, and we really put in the funds. But every trial site after that got less and less, and people got less and less interested. But all that money went into funding in Ceduna to 40-something charities around the town, and, even though the people who set them up are doing their best to make a difference, they're all pulling in different directions. They can't scratch the surface of the problems that Ceduna faces. Meanwhile, the TAFE hardly runs any courses. What about some trade training and some apprenticeships? All this was supposed to come along with the card. That was part of the package. The CDP isn't helping people either. We should have just stuck with the CDEP. We already knew that was working. Once again, you put a card out there, you short-changed them and you backed off in the jobs area. We need to get people trained up and ready to enter the workforce instead of being forced to show up to twiddle their thumbs.</para>
<para>Alcohol and drugs are still a problem in Ceduna too. Five years later, they're still an issue. The sobering-up unit can take people in and look after them for a night if they've had too much to drink, but then they have to send them back on the street when the morning arrives. Anyone who actually wants to do something about a drinking and drug problem has to leave their loved ones behind for weeks on end and travel for five hours to a rehab centre in Port Augusta. It just doesn't work for them, and most people just won't go. A lot of them are Indigenous. They don't have the cars to get up there, they don't have five hours to get up there and it makes no common sense. Part of your recovery must involve family and friends; that gives you a better chance of recovery. To just shove you somewhere and hope you recover without that support is never going to be enough. In the end nothing changes, they're back to square one and no-one goes anywhere; it's just one big, vicious circle.</para>
<para>I can't tell you how many times I've raised these problems with the government, and they know what's going on. This is the sad fact of the matter. They've been kicking this can down the road for years now, and it's becoming more and more obvious that they haven't had the will to make these things happen. They just haven't put in enough, and that's been the really sad fact. The card could have been something great for the country. It's taken us nearly five years to get the damn card right. We haven't even started on the rest, and the rest is the hardest bit. The rest is the jobs, the training and the rehab. If it's taken us five years to work on a card, on something plastic, how long is it going to take to get the real-life stuff right?</para>
<para>I had to take 20 months out of this place. I sat on the sidelines. For 20 months I had to sit back and just let it go. In all that time, I wondered, 'How is the card going?' Unfortunately, I couldn't get out there and check on it like I used to. Do you know what the government did in that time I was gone? It did pretty much nothing. Nothing happened the whole time. There was very little progress. Here's the truth: when I came back, the card was pretty much comatose; it was dead in the water. That's when I first started to wonder if the people in this government actually wanted this thing to work. Now I've finally decided that I don't think they really do at all.</para>
<para>What could have been so great for this country is now becoming heartbreaking. If this were really a trial, they would have done a proper study and they would have got the job done. They would have released the Adelaide university report. They know, as I do, it's going to have failings in it everywhere, because they haven't done the job. I know it. Through the chair, I'm sure Senator O'Sullivan knows it. That's really sad, and not because we want that report to look like that. It's just that somehow you guys stopped putting effort into it. It was like Ceduna was the best thing; it was great. After that it just started to become watered down. It's fallen apart.</para>
<para>They tell us why they think it makes sense to have this card in a few regional areas in the Northern Territory but nowhere else. They should have a reason for quarantining 80 per cent of people's money in Ceduna, Hervey Bay, the Goldfields and the Kimberley. In the Northern Territory, it's fifty-fifty. They could come out and show us that they actually want to invest making regional areas with the card prosper, put money into the jobs that people need in those areas and find a way to get people off welfare and into work, but none of that's happening. Five years is becoming six years next year since we started. This is the thing: no matter how much promise this card has, it won't work without a government prepared to make it work. You can't go at 50 per cent. You can't be half pregnant; it's not 110 per cent or nothing at all. To the government: unfortunately you just don't have that in you. You've lacked to show me that action.</para>
<para>For months, the government have been trying to make it look like the card is paying out everything they promised. But in truth they have set the card up to fail. If their hearts were in it in the first place, that's great. But they're certainly not there anymore. If they really cared about making the CDC work, they would have done more to get people off welfare and into a good job and a good life, because that was the promise of the card; that was the hope. The card was to give people hope to be able to change their lives around, to get out of the conditions that they've been living in for years and to get them off welfare. They would have given them something to strive for, and they would have given them that carrot; that's the answer. The government have had the stick out for so long now, it's like they forgot to pull the carrot out of the ground; it's still sitting there. That in itself has become really, really sad. As hard as this is for me—because I did see some difference. But you just didn't put in the effort over there, and that effort dwindled as each year went past. This card's just not worth it anymore, because every time you promised me you were going to do this or you were going to do that over the five years, you didn't deliver, and that's why this card has failed. It has failed because you would not deliver. You had this man over here, Senator O'Sullivan. I told you for 18 months, 'This is the man that built the jobs, he worked on it for 10 years,' and you sat him on the sidelines. There was your first hope. You had someone who knew this card, who could have made a difference really quickly, and for 18 months you still sat him on the sidelines. So for me to think you are actually going to make any difference after five years of my asking for things to make a difference—I just don't believe you anymore.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e4t</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Lambie. Senator Wong?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Chair, I'm not sure if Senator Lambie is finished, and I'm just wondering if she might seek leave to talk for a few more minutes if she wishes to finish up? She's right. No worries.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>20:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHISHOLM</name>
    <name.id>39801</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie is often a hard act to follow, particularly when she combines her own personal experiences with some of the current challenges we are facing in the chamber, and I think tonight we've seen another example of that. But what Senator Lambie's speech has done is actually mirror some of the experiences that I've found when I've been out in the electorate of Hinkler, where those Bundaberg-Hervey Bay communities have been part of the trial sites, and I as a Labor senator happen to be the duty senator for that area. I've spent plenty of time there since they've been a trial site. I've held community forums in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay to which anyone is allowed to come along, and I've also had Linda Burney, the Labor shadow minister, with me, where we've gone up there and heard from those people. I will make some broad statements before I talk about some of the local examples that I've seen and the people I've met and the stories that they've told.</para>
<para>At the end of the day, when you look at the application of this legislation, it is racist, it's discriminatory, it stigmatises those impacted and it divides communities like those of Hervey Bay and Bundaberg. What is shameful is that not one National has come into this chamber and defended it. Not one National has spoken in this chamber and defended this legislation. The seat of Hinkler has been held continuously by the National Party for 27 years. The member for Hinkler has been from the National Party. Yet not one of them has come in and defended this. Just as shameful is that we've only had one Liberal who has been prepared to come in and defend this. I don't know Senator O'Sullivan well, but I believe his sincerity when he talks about what he has done in this. But this is the party of freedom, the party of choice—individual choice. They say, when they've allowed young people early access to the superannuation, that it's their money. But not with this and the way they treat those people in Hinkler, those people of Hervey Bay and Bundaberg; the way they treat those people in remote Cape York; and the way they want to treat those people in the remote Northern Territory and in some of those other communities. It's not freedom of choice for them. It's not their money when it comes to this. They're going to be treated differently and restricted, and it has a massive impact.</para>
<para>The member for Hinkler, whose own electorate is the most impacted—it is the biggest trial site—did not even speak on this legislation. That will become permanent if it passes. He did not even speak on this legislation. So I'm going to focus the substance of my speech on Queensland and the impact of the card on Bundaberg and Hervey Bay, but I have also in recent times visited those communities that will be impacted in the cape—some of those communities that are on the BasicsCard at the moment.</para>
<para>As I said, I've held community meetings in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay, along with shadow minister Burney, and we met with anyone who wanted to come along and tell us their story. Some of the service providers have been dealing with the fallout in those communities, and we've held roundtables for them as well, and I want to tell some of their stories tonight. But let's bust some myths. One of the myths is that communities were consulted. The communities of Hervey Bay and Bundaberg were not consulted. The member for Hinkler still won't meet with those that have been impacted by this decision. He refuses to meet with constituents. I've had them talk to me. They cannot get a meeting with their local member. The fact is that none of the communities of Bundaberg and Hervey Bay were consulted. This was imposed on them from up high. There was no consultation on the ground. The government did not even try to evaluate this card before pressing ahead to make it permanent. It has led to a thriving black market, particularly in those Indigenous communities; many of those have been impacted as a result.</para>
<para>And the government promised more support for social services. I know that in Hinkler it took more than two years for the government to deliver on that. They imposed the card but didn't actually give the wraparound services—this is some of what Senator Lambie went to—to provide support for people who did need help, who did have addictions, who did have substance abuse issues that they wanted to be rid of. The government provided none of those extra wraparound services to those people.</para>
<para>So the truth behind the government's plan is laid bare: it's actually a big rollout of the cashless debit card, and it is coming permanently. How can they say they're going to treat the community of Hinkler differently to that in Brisbane or any other city? Why should those people be treated differently? Why should those Indigenous communities be treated differently? It is nonsense, and that is something the government no doubt have planned. This bill seeks to remove the trial site parameters and establish the cashless debit card as an ongoing program. It will add the Northern Territory and Cape York, in changing from the BasicsCard to the CDC, and it will mean that those communities of Bundaberg and Hervey Bay will be on the card permanently.</para>
<para>Before introducing the new law to make this trial permanent, Senator Ruston hadn't even read the report by the University of Adelaide, which was looking into the effectiveness of this trial before a big permanent rollout of the cashless debit card was launched. How arrogant has this performance been from this government? The study cost $2.5 million and the government wasn't even prepared to read the results before rolling out the card. The Liberal and Nationals parties obviously didn't want to read the report before they made the card permanent. It has been reported that the trial found no substantive impact on measures of gambling, drug and alcohol abuse, crime or emergency department presentations. Dr Luke Greenacre, one of the authors of the University of Adelaide report, said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We have shown the CDC policy to have had no substantive effect on the available measures for the targeted behaviours of gambling or intoxicant abuse.</para></quote>
<para>It has been reported that the government has now spent $4.8 million on evaluations, but so far all have failed to produce credible evidence to support claims of effectiveness, efficiency or suitability, as noted by ANU researcher Elise Klein in her submission to the committee inquiry into the legislation.</para>
<para>The government had claimed that the card would help with youth unemployment, but this doesn't bear out in reality. Since the trial period beginning in late 2018 there hasn't been an improvement in unemployment or youth unemployment, especially when you look at similar communities like Gympie compared to Bundaberg and Hervey Bay. For those who don't know, Gympie is about an hour-and-a-half drive away from Bundaberg and Hervey Bay in regional Queensland. In June 2018 the unemployment rate was 9.5 per cent for the Bundaberg local government association, 10.7 per cent for Fraser Coast—which is where Hervey Bay is—and 8.9 per cent for Gympie. In December 2019 they were 7.6 per cent, 8.8 per cent and seven per cent. So, despite the fact the trial had been running for a year and a half, there was no significant statistical difference between the towns of Bundaberg and Hervey Bay on the cashless debit card compared to Gympie, which is a comparable town nearby.</para>
<para>The unemployment rate in the Wide Bay labour market region of Bundaberg, Hervey Bay, Maryborough and Gympie has stayed high. In September 2018 the unemployment rate for people aged between 15 and 34 was 10.9 per cent. In December 2019 it had increased to 13.8 per cent. In a similar period the Brisbane rate dropped by over one per cent. So, when we're talking about youth unemployment, those people impacted in the community, in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay, had actually seen an increase in the youth unemployment rate through the period of the trial of the cashless welfare card before COVID hit. Since January 2010 the average unemployment rate in Wide Bay for 15- to 34-year-olds has been 14.6 per cent. For too long this area has had a high level of youth unemployment. But what the government has done with the cashless welfare trial has seen no change to a high youth unemployment rate through that region. So there's no evidence that the cashless debit card has had any impact on youth unemployment through the trial sites.</para>
<para>I want to talk about the forums I held in Hinkler. I repeatedly heard about the emotional toll the card was having on those impacted. I heard from Jodie, who shared her story. Jodie has been forced onto the card. She travelled from Bundaberg to Hervey Bay to share her story with me in November 2019. I've spoken previously in the chamber of how Jodie suffers from chronic pain from her arthritis and prolapsed discs. She doesn't drink or gamble and was applying to opt out of the trial. In July this year, they rejected her application to opt out after nine months of waiting. This caused her to have a stress-induced heart attack caused by long-term severe stress. She couldn't include this in her review of the decision and has been forced to make a new opt-out application.</para>
<para>We heard from a mother who was almost unable to see her son's school concert performance because she couldn't get the cash out to buy a ticket. It was a good Samaritan who handed the mother the cash to pay the entry to gain access to watch her son perform. The fact is that it limits people's ability in Bundaberg and Hervey Bay to visit local fresh food markets and to buy fruit and vegetables from local stores. The Bundaberg and Fraser Coast region is so renowned for having good access to fresh fruit and vegetables, but people are missing out on that opportunity. There were countless stories of people missing rent payments because Indue had miscategorised a payment as rent, meaning that, when the actual rent bill came, there wasn't enough money in the real account to pay the rent.</para>
<para>We heard from people who had been abused and shamed in shops for having the CDC. One person had taken the step of putting a cover on her card so that it wasn't obviously a cashless debit card so that she wouldn't be targeted when paying for people and be stigmatised as a result. It's clear to these residents that the government and Keith Pitt, the member for Hinkler, weren't listening to their concerns. None of those extra services focusing on jobs that Senator Lambie talked about have taken place in Hinkler to give them a chance for this to thrive.</para>
<para>Then I raised the lack of access to support services. Hinkler was promised $1 million in extra funding for support services. It took the government over two years to grant the local funding. They said that this was going to be part of the proposal, but it took them two years to actually deliver the extra support services that were so much needed in an area that has such high youth unemployment and has had for such a period of time. In September 2019, I called on the government to stand up and keep their end of the bargain with the community after two years of neglecting to fund these services. It still took a few more months for them to actually deliver on this.</para>
<para>There's no doubt that this bill is the thin end of the wedge of the cashless debit card. We know that there are LNP MPs out there who have called for the national rollout of the cashless debit card. Senator Canavan was on the news yesterday doing the same. In February, we saw Senator Ruston say that there was absolutely a case to introduce the cashless welfare card in major cities given the results of trials in Bundaberg-Hervey Bay in Queensland, in Ceduna in South Australia, and in the Kimberley region of Western Australia. She told <inline font-style="italic">The Sydney Morning Herald</inline> and <inline font-style="italic">The Age</inline>:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The reason we haven't done it in the major cities is because we need to deal with the technology issue, which we are now close to resolving.</para></quote>
<para>So there is no doubt of the trajectory of this legislation and what the government want to achieve if they are able to do it. We know the Senate estimates established that they had a working group with big banks and supermarkets to look at how this could be rolled out across Australia. We know that those receiving DSP are on the cashless debit card, and it's only a matter of time before this is introduced.</para>
<para>There's no doubt that the government think that beating up on welfare recipients is good politics for them. They've made an art form out of it since the Howard government 20 years ago. But it is an opportunity for us here in the Senate tonight to say, 'No more,' and to say that stigmatising and dividing Australians and targeting those people on welfare will not pass this Senate tonight. Labor will oppose this bill, and we will continue to stand up to the government's efforts to roll this out across Australia. I know, from the work I have done in Hinkler over a number of years now, that this doesn't work, it divides communities and it is not the answer to problems that need fixing.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>21:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator URQUHART</name>
    <name.id>231199</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a quote from a member of the other place, Bridget Archer MP, member for Bass in Tasmania, a member of the government, a member of the Liberal Party of Australia and a vocal opponent of the cashless welfare card. These are her words, not mine:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Whenever you approach a human problem by inciting shame and guilt, you have already lost those that you are seeking to help. The rhetoric that surrounds social security and systems like income management plays in to the very worst of human nature; we're essentially inviting people to look at their fellow Australians as something 'other' or 'less than'.</para></quote>
<para>Mrs Archer also said in her speech:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That's not the Australia I want to live in.</para></quote>
<para>Well, it's not the country that I want to live in either. But Mrs Archer is part of the government. She's in a position where she could have actually done something to stop this insidious demonising of welfare recipients. But, unfortunately for our country, Mrs Archer was too spineless to match her words with action. She abstained from voting on the bill yesterday in the House of Representatives. She just didn't show up. She wasted her vote. She could have crossed the floor. If she had voted no to the bill, the bill would have been defeated. Instead, she amply demonstrated the Prime Minister's shameless practice of being all announcement, no action and of being there for the photo op not for the follow-up.</para>
<para>I note that Mrs Archer has a quote under her photograph on her personal Facebook page. It says: 'Fear is a reaction. Courage is a decision.' Well, by her decision to waste her vote—to not show up and vote according to her convictions—Mrs Archer has shown no courage, only fear. She's chosen cowardice over courage and gutlessness over conviction. Her lack of resolve has sold out tens of thousands of Australians. Her actions do, however, give us all a very clear picture of just how much opposition there is to this bill on the government's backbench.</para>
<para>Mr Pearce, the member for Braddon, the electorate right next door to Mrs Archer's, has said that the cashless welfare card isn't coming to his neighbourhood, so it's not a problem for him to support it being legislated. He's quite happy to sell out tens of thousands of Australians, as long as it doesn't come to his backyard. But the question I have is: will it? He will keep his head in the sand, his hands over his ears and look the other way. He voted for the bill three times—more fool him! Who is next, I wonder? Age pensioners? Those on disability support payments? Youth allowance? Watch out, Tasmania! Mr Pearce and Mrs Archer will be held responsible for bringing the cashless debit card to Tasmanian shores. There are 5,087 people on the disability support pension in Bass and 6,590 in Braddon. There are 7,888 Tasmanians in Bass on JobKeeper, and 7,034 in Braddon. There are 1,220 young people on youth allowance in Bass and 1,064 in Braddon. On the age pension, there are 14,653 people in Bass and 16,739 in Braddon. These are thousands of Tasmanians who have every right to be in fear today and every day that we have a Liberal government in this country. That's over 70,000 people in the two electorates of Bass and Braddon who are on some form of social security payment and will hold Mr Pearce and Mrs Archer to account. Mrs Archer sold out her beliefs when she could have made a difference—a huge difference. Mr Pearce is simply not listening and not doing his job.</para>
<para>Surprise, surprise, what did we see on the news yesterday? Senator Canavan calling for a national rollout of the cashless debit card! And so it begins. So there is no doubt that the Morrison government has a thinly veiled plan for the card's national rollout—potentially making life harder for millions of social security recipients and hurting local businesses. This is how unhinged the Morrison government's ideology has become. Despite a clear indication from people in our communities that they do not want the card, despite their own backbenchers thinking it's a stupid, cruel idea and despite a total lack of evidence that the card does anything other than humiliate and demean the people forced to use it, the government persist with their rampant ideology to torment and diminish welfare recipients.</para>
<para>Let's make this very clear: the Morrison government's cashless debit card policy is based on ideology, not evidence. There simply is no evidence that the cashless welfare card imposed on communities has a positive effect. It is a weapon for disempowerment. It is a weapon to diminish Australians who are already doing it incredibly tough. Since the start of the recession, the number of people receiving unemployment payments has doubled to 1.6 million. Those people thrown into unemployment by the Morrison recession deserve our support. They deserve a comprehensive plan for jobs and retraining. They do not deserve this kind of ritual humiliation fed by a barking mad, ideological bent.</para>
<para>This is about tormenting people to the point where they are too frightened to go into a Centrelink office—to the point where they will resort to almost anything, including prematurely accessing their own superannuation, in order to avoid going anywhere near Centrelink. The anxiety, the degradation and the stigma—that's what they fear. This government, the Morrison government, should be ashamed that they have allowed this climate to thrive in our country.</para>
<para>I note also, and importantly, that this bill and the government's cashless debit card policy are racially discriminatory. The bill would place over 34,700 people on the cashless debit card permanently. Over 23,500, or 68 per cent, of them have identified as First Nations Australians. This is from a government, from a Prime Minister, who had the gall—the absolute gall—to stand in our parliament in February of this year and talk about a new approach to closing the gap, that he has built on a partnership with First Australians on giving back responsibility, on an approach of listening and of empowering. Those were his words. That's what he said! The hypocrisy of it!</para>
<para>The bill is appalling, inhumane and racially discriminatory in effect. It is part of an ongoing and relentless attack on some of the most vulnerable in our community—those living below the poverty line and struggling to make ends meet. At its heart, it impinges on the rights and freedoms of people on social security payments, particularly, as I have said, our First Nations people. It reveals the twisted heart of this government and the Morrison government's ideology, seeking to further marginalise those on social security with the assumption that recipients are to blame for their circumstances. High unemployment rates and dependence on social security have everything to do with this government's history of a negligent lack of economic policies for job creation.</para>
<para>In Launceston in late 2019, during the Senate Community Affairs References Committee inquiry into the adequacy of Newstart and associated payments, I heard from recipients who were brave enough to talk about their experience on what was then called Newstart. Debra was physically ill and, having worked for 35 years in manufacturing, had been forced to live on her redundancy before then accessing welfare payments. Despite her years of experience she could not get a job interview. Her words were:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Frankly, I'm scared about what's going to happen to me … People like me deserve to be treated with some respect for our contribution to our country and to be able to keep some dignity … and not to be reduced to the poverty line and be forgotten about. We paid our taxes and we deserve better.</para></quote>
<para>Now, because of this recession, there are twice as many Debras out there—scared and struggling with the system.</para>
<para>The vicious determination of this government's multipronged attack on welfare recipients is more evident than ever before. The government humiliate them, terrify them with false and illegal debts—robodebt—starve them, drug test them and now deny them the right to make choices about how to manage their money. My office has been approached by a constituent who moved from interstate, from an area that is currently part of the cashless welfare card trial—a trial that the government now seeks to make permanent. He was concerned that he would have to stay on the card that was imposed on him. He has sole custody of his two children, and, unfortunately, the card followed him when he moved to Tasmania. He had no choice and no say. Given that 80 per cent of his pension is quarantined, he struggles to provide lunch and pocket money to his kids. He's also constrained in accessing local farmers markets and purchasing second-hand goods like school uniforms and books for his children, who can't participate in school banking. It's difficult to send his kids to school on special days that require a gold coin donation.</para>
<para>In Tasmania we have a great tradition of country markets and roadside honesty stores. Some of the best, cheapest and freshest produce that you can buy will be from the small stand at your neighbour's gate, except he can't do that. He must go to the supermarket, because the card that quarantines his income has to be spent at big supermarkets. He's constantly frustrated in trying to live on a tiny income and give his children the best life that he can. He's constantly humiliated when trying to explain to his children and community why he and his children can't fully participate in what he might see as normal and desirable activities.</para>
<para>In 2019, the Senate committee inquiry heard from academics, community groups, economists and researchers that demonstrated there is no independent, rigorous evaluation of the trial sites that indicates the card is effective in reducing social harms. The Morrison government hasn't even waited for the findings of the review they commissioned from Adelaide university, before deciding to make the card permanent. There's been little or no consultation in the communities in which this bill will have the greatest effect.</para>
<para>The government literally has no interest in hearing from those that they wish to impose the sanctions on. This government—those opposite—admit that this bill is simply another way to demonise and shame those on social security payments, to kick those in the community who are already down. If this government truly believes its mantra—that the best form of welfare is a job—then it'd best get about making a decent plan to create those jobs. That way people who are trying to do their best to make ends meet, to provide for their children and to gain employment in the midst of a recession can actually get on with living their lives with dignity instead of worrying about the punitive measures that the Morrison government is going to take against them next.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>21:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LINES</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise tonight to oppose the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020. It is racist, and it takes away people's basic human rights. I've listened to a lot of the contributions that have been made in this place today and yesterday, and I certainly wish to associate my remarks with those of Senator McCarthy, Senator Dodson and Ms Linda Burney, the member from Barton, in the other place.</para>
<para>I've heard those opposite accuse us of being emotional and of missing the point, saying that, because we live in the city, perhaps we don't understand. That's just bunkum. I've participated in nearly every single cashless debit card inquiry, whether it was a reference inquiry or whether it was a legislation inquiry, and I've heard of no research that supports the rollout of this card. In fact, what we've done across this country is trick those people who are currently stuck on the cashless debit card, because they believe they are on a trial site. We've heard much about the trial in the north-west of Western Australia, the Kimberley, Kununurra and the East Kimberley. We've heard a lot about the trial site in Ceduna. So emboldened were those opposite that they put on a sham trial in Kalgoorlie. And who did we hear from in that inquiry? Mainly local government. Do they deliver services? No, they do not. Do they police the local communities and towns? No, they do not. Do they provide welfare? No, they do not. They just had a feeling about the antisocial behaviour in their town and that, somehow, it would be fixed by this cashless debit card.</para>
<para>When those opposite decided to roll the card out in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg—a trial site—guess where we had the hearing? Did we have it in Queensland? No. So gutless were those opposite, the Morrison government, we had it in Perth. Western Australia is where we held that inquiry, not Hervey Bay. We heard from people on the phone who were having this card imposed upon them. And guess what? The government, in their wisdom, decided they'd start with a brand new trial there and put everyone under 35 on it. So we've got all these different so-called trials happening across this country. And then, all of a sudden, we hear that we're going to take the Cape York trial, the Cape York card, and make that permanent. Now, that operates entirely differently. And where did we hold that inquiry? Did we go up to Cape York? No, once again, we didn't. We held it in a capital city. I think we had something like two or three hours to investigate that card, from memory. In fact, for this latest bill, we had, I think, a two- or three-hour inquiry. That was it. We're rolling this card out. No longer are we ever going to pretend it's a trial, because it was a sham to suggest it was a trial. We're just going to roll it out and we're not going to consult with anyone. Not only that, we're going to scoop up thousands of people in the Northern Territory and we're going to scoop up those in Cape York, where we've got very different processes in place.</para>
<para>Have we consulted with people in the Northern Territory, with First Nations people in the Northern Territory? No, we have not. We had a three-hour telephone hook-up with officials in Canberra, with those of us who participated, like me, coming in from all across the country. I heard those opposite say we'd never been to the country. Well, I've held public meetings, like Senator Chisholm. I held a public meeting in Kalgoorlie, so alarmed was I, so concerned was I, about the emails I was getting from participants who were affected. Do you know what? That was a public meeting. We had One Nation members there. Elected members in the state parliament in Western Australia were at that meeting. The council was at that meeting and so were a lot of card holders. They told me the stories that you've heard in this chamber tonight. They told me how their rent had been messed up by the card. The grandmothers who like to give their kids money for lunch couldn't do that anymore. We heard about the woman who just wanted to pay her kids' sports footy fees in cash, and they didn't have any other way to accept the fees. She couldn't do that anymore. We heard from a woman who had very severe anxiety problems, who had prided herself on the way that she had managed her money all of her life and, suddenly, that was ripped away from her. We know that people on low incomes juggle their incomes: 'A bit of money here for this payment. If I delay that another week, I can pay this payment.' I heard all of those stories in Kalgoorlie, and the Morrison government has taken that away from people by imposing the card.</para>
<para>What does the government rely on in its majority report? Make no mistake—for those people listening in—if it's a legislation inquiry, the Morrison government has the numbers. They talk about 'the majority report'. We had a newsagent in Kalgoorlie come and tell us, anecdotally, how suddenly, because of the card, things were better outside her shop, and the government somehow trades on that. We heard that the government relied on the Orima research, which has been absolutely discredited. Imagine walking up to someone on the street and saying: 'Excuse me, are you on the cashless debit card? We'd like to ask you about your drinking.' That's exactly what they did—no baseline data, nothing! We'll hear tonight the minister quote these wonderful figures out of Kalgoorlie. What we won't hear the minister say is that the Western Australian government put significant additional police resources into that town, and that's why crime went down. It was nothing to do with the cashless debit card. We won't hear tonight from the minister that kids are going hungry in Kununurra and are breaking into houses. What we'll hear is that one Aboriginal leader now—one only—supports the trial. And he'll tell you, every time he comes before a Senate inquiry, that it's just one thing that he thinks is worth trying; he doesn't believe that this is going to fix all our problems.</para>
<para>Where did this idea come from? Was it a well-researched idea backed up with academic evidence? No! It came from a billionaire based in WA. It was an idea of Twiggy Forrest's: 'Oh, I know what we'll do! We'll control people's money.' Because he has money, power and privilege he was able to just walk into Mr Howard, at that time, and put this idea on the table. Then he was given the opportunity to go out and talk to people. How outrageous! We have academic after academic in this country who have done social research for many years, but they were simply overlooked because they don't have the power or the privilege that brings the access that Mr Twiggy Forrest has. I have nothing against him—good on him if he has made a buck. But that does not entitle him to set social policy in this country.</para>
<para>I've been to Broome and I've spoken to women caught up on this card—women who don't drink, who don't gamble and who have worked all their lives but who suddenly find themselves unemployed and caught up on the cashless debit card. We've all talked about those stories tonight. We can't all be wrong on this side of the chamber—some of what we're saying must be true! What those over there on the crossbench are about to do tonight, if the crossbenchers support the Morrison government, is bring into place a racist and discriminatory card in these so-called trial sites in Western Australia, South Australia and Queensland, when they haven't even had the decency to say to those people: 'Hey, guess what? There's no end in sight for you now. This is your lot! And in addition to that, we're going to impose it in Cape York and the Northern Territory.' Something like 60 per cent of people caught up on that card there are First Nations people. This is racist legislation, and shame on those opposite—shame on you!</para>
<para>I was given a piece of research tonight by a PhD student who spent 12 months at Ceduna. That person says that harm from alcohol and drugs remains an issue for people. That person says that violence has remained the same or increased, as the cashless debit card limits access to cash. This research—research!—says that it includes extreme examples of prostitution, which we've heard before from Ceduna, and violent arguments over money. She has found, further, that violence and abuse are not reported to police because of the distrust and fear.</para>
<para>We know that the cashless debit card is not helpful in gaining employment—in fact, it is a disincentive because people lack the ability to have cash—and we know that the need for social support has increased. We've got the research—well we don't have it. We understand the minister has got the research that the government commissioned from the University of Adelaide—$2.5 million on a piece of research that's obviously never going to see the light of day. I wonder why that is. Maybe it's because the stark truth that those of us on this side of the chamber have been speaking tonight is laid bare in that research, and that is that the cashless debit card does not work. I hope that each and every one of you over there who votes for this piece of legislation tonight is held to account. I hope you do go to Bundaberg, Ceduna, the Kimberley, the Northern Territory and Cape York and front the people to whose lives you are doing harm. But I don't think you will. If you can't be bold enough to hold an inquiry in Bundaberg to push the cashless debit card onto people there, what hope is there? You had to have the inquiry in Perth, which, of course, meant people couldn't participate other than by phone.</para>
<para>It is time you stopped pretending that this card works. In the Kimberley we do not have the wraparound services that were promised. The community have told you over and over again what they need. I'm sure Senator Dodson will correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have only one sobering up shelter, and that's in Broome. It's a very long way there from Kununurra. Maybe if you live in the cities on the eastern seaboard you don't appreciate that. It's not something you can just pop down to, and it's certainly almost impossible if you rely on the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>For the crossbenchers: if any of you are wavering tonight, I urge you to listen to the speeches that have been made in here about this racist card, about this card that has not worked, about trial sites that have been trial sites for way too long with no proper evaluation. We are now being incredibly dishonest to those thousands of people caught up on this card, because we're implementing it without any consultation. I don't know what is going to happen in the Northern Territory when people's cards and what's being accessed are suddenly changed. I know Senator McCarthy went into some of that today. You need to have the courage of your convictions. It is not too late to back out of this card. It's racist, it's unfair, it impacts people's human rights and it should be put in the bin where it belongs.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>21:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 in the context of some very moving speeches by those on this side of the chamber and on the crossbench.</para>
<para>The first thing I think you should do when you're legislating is talk to the people who might be affected, who are affected, by the legislation. There's nothing more basic to our jobs than that. But this Morrison government has demonstrated its complete disinterest in listening to the people who would be affected by its legislation to lock in the cashless debit card that has been trialled in recent years. The context for this failure to listen particularly matters when it comes to this legislation, because this isn't just more Morrison government power-grabbing centralisation of government and paternalism, although it is all of those things, and it's not just more arrogant 'we know better than you', although it is certainly that; it is that this legislation comes in the context of generations of paternalism towards First Nations people in this country, of generations of disempowerment. So when the Morrison government chooses not to listen to First Nations people about something that deeply affects them it is throwing back to an attitude that we all hoped government in this country moved past with the national apology in 2008, an attitude that says government knows better than the people it serves, the smugness that says government can manage some people's lives better than they can manage it themselves, the same superiority that let government think they were noble for stealing children from their parents. Those opposite seem to have learnt nothing from their history, because they think they don't have to. They think their smugness is worth more than facts and evidence. They think they know better than the sum of our own history, and so, to paraphrase a famous saying, they are condemning First Australians to repeat it.</para>
<para>Isn't it interesting how those opposite purport to be the party that gets out of people's lives, the party of small government, and yet they want to reach into the lives of thousands of First Australians in designated areas and control nearly every decision they make, and somehow this is supposed to be for their own good. But there is no other community in Australia where those opposite would tolerate such a proposition. They wouldn't tolerate it for any other Australian who needed help from the government. And, if we're honest, we will recognise that the vast majority of us have help from government in one form or another at some point in our lives and never face the level of disempowerment, when we do, that our First Nations brothers and sisters face. We're still trusted to make decisions in our own best interests from the choices available to us.</para>
<para>You've heard tonight a great deal of disappointment, frustration, anger and sadness towards those opposite, and I have criticisms especially of those who purport to be moderates inside the Liberal Party, because they would never propose legislation like this for non-Indigenous Australian but they're fine with it for Indigenous Australians. I ask them: doesn't it concern you at all to hear from Indigenous Australians what this legislation means for them? Doesn't it concern them at all to hear the ways in which their cashless debit card can trap women in unsafe situations of family violence? Does it not concern them at all to hear from witnesses at the Senate inquiry on this legislation, such as Olga Havnen from the Danila Dilba Health Service in the Northern Territory, who said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… there is an absolutely astonishing lack of credible evidence that income management has made any significant improvement to any of the key indicators of wellbeing: child health, birth weights, failure to thrive, and child protection notifications and substantiations. There are no improvements in school attendance, and … nothing we can see would suggest that there has been a reduction in family or community violence.</para></quote>
<para>So why is the government proceeding with this legislation? Let's remember the Prime Minister's lofty words when he talked about closing the gap. He said:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… to rob a person of their right to take responsibility for themselves; to strip them of responsibility and capability to direct their own futures; to make them dependent … is to deny them of their liberty—and slowly that person will wither before your eyes.</para></quote>
<para>And yet this legislation in his government's name will do exactly that.</para>
<para>I cannot understand why this government flat-out refuses to take on board what people affected by this legislation have to say about it. Why do they insist they know best when the evidence proves they don't? Why do they insist on repeating the mistakes, indignities and outrages of the past? Why do they insist on treating our First Australians as second-class Australians? And why do they continue to spurn the generosity of our First Australians? I am constantly stunned by the asymmetry of what First Australians ask of the rest of us compared with what has been and is taken from them. And I'm not talking purely about our history; I'm talking about our present—how little some in this place are prepared to give, even when it costs them nothing. It costs them nothing to demonstrate respect and inclusion by displaying the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flags here in this chamber, but those opposite won't. It costs them nothing to support Senator Dodson's call for a Senate select committee into Makarrata, but they won't. Have you no shame? This is a man who, in his first speech, spoke of hiding in the grass so he was not taken away, and he extends the hand of reconciliation and you turn your backs. It costs nothing for those opposite to denounce the racist interjections from their own side, but they won't and they didn't today. It costs them nothing to listen to First Australians, but they don't. And it costs so little—nothing—for those in the Morrison government who purport to be moderate to actually do something helpful for race relations and reconciliation in this country, but they don't. Instead they put forward legislation like this, proven to waste taxpayers' money with its inefficiency and ineffectiveness. So often, they are allowing decisions about First Australians to be driven by the most extreme elements amongst the coalition.</para>
<para>I say to those self-described moderate senators: if you could summon one fraction of the courage that Senator Dodson, Senator McCarthy, Ms Burney or other First Nations members of this parliament have to summon every single day, we might actually get somewhere. But they won't summon that courage, because all the evidence points to an embarrassing reality: they don't have that courage to summon. They just cede the ground to the hardliners and extremists in their party and let their chapter in Australian history be written for them. It will be a tragic coda to the history that has already been written—a history for which this parliament has already once apologised. For so many of the reasons articulated tonight and by those we are privileged to have in our caucus, Labor opposes this bill.</para>
<para>I turn now briefly to the second reading amendments. Labor's second reading amendment, which we have moved and has been circulated, goes to the fundamental flaws in what the government is proposing here tonight. Thirteen years after the intervention of inflicting compulsory income management on thousands and thousands of people across the Northern Territory, it simply hasn't worked. We believe the bill should be abandoned and the government should instead invest in local jobs, scrapping the CDP and replacing it with a program that gives local communities control, and make sure there are services and opportunities, not just punishment.</para>
<para>I also indicate on behalf of the opposition that Labor will be supporting the Greens second reading amendment to the bill. As has been said by many of my colleagues, we believe this is a racially discriminatory policy that is not based on evidence and that is being imposed on communities without consent or consultation.</para>
<para>Finally, Labor will not be supporting Senator Patrick's second reading amendment. We do not believe we should be picking and choosing who this card is imposed upon, dividing Australians into the 'deserving' and 'undeserving'. This card is being foisted upon many in the name of social issues faced by a minority. We do not believe this card should be rolled out generally, and therefore it shouldn't just be pensioners who are excluded. The reality is that the bill does extend, in its current form, the cashless debit card to pensioners and that there are already pensioners subject to compulsory income management. Thank you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>21:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise this evening to speak on this bill that continues our commitment to improve our welfare system and deliver a real difference to the lives of Australians. This bill, the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020, allows for the continuation of the cashless debit card in existing sites and provides for the transition of income management participants across the Northern Territory and Cape York region to the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>The government thanks the Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee for its report on the bill. The committee published the report on 17 November and recommended that this bill be passed. The report identified that the cashless debit card program is delivering significant benefits for the community where it operates. The program has the objective of reducing social harm caused by excessive alcohol, gambling and drug use; helps welfare recipients with their budgeting strategies; and encourages socially responsible behaviour.</para>
<para>I want to spend a moment taking the chamber back to where this all started, because when we consider why this card was put in place there can be no doubt about why it is so important to continue with this program. In 2011 the South Australian coroner handed down a heartbreaking report of the 'sleeping rough inquest' into the deaths of six people in the state's far west coast. It found that efforts to curb alcohol abuse in the region had not been successful and that it was having devastating impacts on individuals, their families and their communities. Indigenous community leaders approached the government and said they were sick of their people dying because of alcohol. That is the reason the communities in the Ceduna region asked for the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>It is clear to anybody who visits Ceduna now that the community has come a long way, and there is a returned sense of pride in the region. The card is not a silver bullet. This government has been clear on that from the outset. But it's clear that it has provided a circuit-breaker that, in tandem with wraparound support services and a lot of hard work within communities, is making a difference. Across the four sites, card participants are spending more of their welfare payments on essential items for themselves and their families, such as food, paying bills, clothes, household goods and fuel. This is confirmed by our card usage data, which shows that spending at supermarkets is up by almost 35 per cent and spending on household goods by over 160 per cent. Over the life of the program over $125 million has been spent at businesses that sell groceries and food that could not be spent on restricted items like alcohol, drugs and gambling products.</para>
<para>There have been more than a dozen evaluations of the CDC, which have provided consistent evidence about welfare quarantining. The policies show decreases in drug and alcohol issues; decreases in crime, violence and antisocial behaviour; improvements in child health and wellbeing; improvements in financial management; and ongoing and even strengthened community support.</para>
<para>I also want to put on record that the government is not interested in telling people where to spend their social security payments. We have no issue with people having a beer or putting a punt on from time to time, which is exactly why there is a percentage of the payment that is exempt from quarantine. What this program seeks to do is to reduce spending on alcohol and gambling products which, when consumed in large quantities, cause significant social harm for individuals, their families and their communities.</para>
<para>It is also the reason the government has been investing heavily in the technology that sits around the cashless debit card. It is practically no different to the debit cards that any of us in this chamber have in our wallets. It can be used in more than 900,000 stores across the country, basically anywhere an EFTPOS machine is available. It is for this reason that we are committed to transitioning income management participants in the Northern Territory and Cape York onto the cashless debit card. It provides income management participants with greater consumer choice and autonomy while reducing red tape for businesses. For example, it provides interest on participants' funds, gives access to new technology such as contactless payment, provides greater choice as to where participants can shop and enables participants to know when and how their money is being used, just like you or I do every day with our own bank cards.</para>
<para>The government has trialled income management through the BasicsCard and the cashless debit card in different communities to improve financial management and reduce harm. The government recognises that the BasicsCard was defective and can restrict an individual's ability to have choice. It is simply that—basic—and only works in around 16,000 stores that have signed a merchant agreement with Services Australia. The government is disappointed that those opposite are not willing to provide participants in the Northern Territory with the benefits of the cashless debit card, which is more user-friendly and works everywhere, except when individuals try to purchase alcohol, gambling products or some gift cards or to withdraw cash, at over 900,000 stores.</para>
<para>I also want to correct claims from those opposite that the cashless debit card is only targeted at Indigenous Australians. Across the four existing sites, about 34 per cent of total participants are Indigenous. The card applies equally to all eligible welfare recipients and is in locations where it has been identified that it can support people, families and communities experiencing high levels of welfare dependency and social harm. Anyone residing in locations where the cashless debit card operates and receiving an eligible payment will become a participant.</para>
<para>You just have a look at the positive impacts the cashless debit card has had across the current four program areas, from a reduction in drug and alcohol related presentations in emergency wards and fewer police call-outs late at night to a general feeling of improved safety on the streets in those towns. We cannot stand by and allow these communities to return to the levels of disadvantage and dysfunction that were so prevalent before their leaders had the courage to come to government and ask for the cashless debit card. As I've met with people who are on the cashless debit card across the country, many have told me how it has helped them improve their lives and helped them budget. From business leaders, local Indigenous leaders, local government, police and health officials there is a consistent message: the card must stay. It's the view of these people who actually live in cashless debit card regions that we should be listening to and considering in this debate.</para>
<para>I would like to take this opportunity to read a joint statement from eight community leaders: Ian Trust, Jean O'Reeri, Robyn Nolan, Corey McLennan, Tammy Williams, Maxine McLeod, John Bowler and Faye Whiffin, who provided the following statement in support of the cashless debit card. This statement was prepared at the request of Senator Patrick, who, I'm extremely disappointed to note, has heard the feedback from the community leaders who have asked for this to continue and dismissed it. The statement reads as follows:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We, the undersigned, support the passage of the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020 to pass. In principle, we support the continuation of the CDC as an ongoing income management program, to make the existing CDC trial sites permanent, and to transition income management in the Northern Territory and the Cape York region from the BasicsCard to the CDC.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We agree to continue working together to support the Commonwealth Government in delivering the objectives of the CDC, and identified that the ongoing implementation of the CDC should be underpinned by:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">• Economically thriving, healthy and strong communities;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">• A collective and culturally respectful voice on the positive impact the CDC does and can have;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">• Enhanced technology to ensure CDC participants have access to a world-class cashless banking and payment experience;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">• Improved delivery of wrap-around services to support CDC participants;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">• Improved financial literacy for CDC participants and the broader community.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Since the introduction of the CDC, we have observed positive changes in our communities. Fewer vulnerable people have been harassed, or ‘humbugged’, to hand over cash to others. More children are attending school, families have money to spend on groceries, and alcohol-fueled violence has decreased. Our communities are safer, people are saying they have the money they need to provide for the basics of life such as buying clothes and food, and paying rent and bills.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">We agree there are differences of opinion and the CDC is not perfect, but we are collectively committed to working with Government to support the changes the CDC can bring about. We recognise and accept the CDC model must continue to evolve in response to community needs, such as reflecting the importance of local authority by involving community Elders in the decision-making processes, and there is much work to be done to achieve the changes we so strongly want for our communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In order to create stronger, safer and healthier communities now and for generations to come we call upon our parliamentary representatives to pass the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020.</para></quote>
<para>I acknowledge those in this place who, as part of the consideration of this bill, have taken the time to visit these communities and hear from people this measure is impacting firsthand. Specifically, I'd like to thank Rebekha Sharkie and Senators Griff, Patrick, Lambie and Hanson, who, despite not necessarily supporting the government's position, have decided and genuinely engaged on this issue. To those who haven't, perhaps you should. I also undertake the government's current support package in the existing sites will contain wraparound supports, and the government will continue to work community leaders to identify the most appropriate way to target those supports.</para>
<para>This bill gives four communities and the new region of Cape York further confidence about the government's commitment to reducing the devastating effects of the overuse of alcohol, drugs and gambling through a two-year extension to the program. We must continue to support the communities that put their hands up and drive positive change and improved outcomes for vulnerable individuals within their communities.</para>
<para>Finally, the government will not be supporting the second reading amendments that have been moved by the opposition and the Greens, because those amendments seek to destroy the very fabric of the purpose of this bill. The government will, however, be supporting Senator Patrick's second reading amendment in relation to the clarification that age pension and service pension recipients are not included in the cashless debit card, with the exception of those who volunteer or who are referred by the Family Responsibilities Commission, child protection workers, social workers or the Northern Territory Alcohol Mandatory Treatment Tribunal. I commend the bill to this chamber.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Dodson be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [21:57]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>28</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the Greens second reading amendment, as circulated in the chamber:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) this bill will entrench the racist, discriminatory, paternalistic, ineffective, top-down, blanket approach of compulsory income management via the Cashless Debit Card,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Government did not consult with First Nations peoples in the Northern Territory about the introduction of the Cashless Debit Card or the continuation of compulsory income management, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the Government failed to consult with people currently on the Cashless Debit Card about making it permanent; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) abandon all forms of compulsory income management currently operating in Australia,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) carry out extensive consultation around Australia for any move to make income management voluntary and ensure that any new program is co-designed, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) immediately release the second impact evaluation being undertaken by the University of Adelaide".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Siewert be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [22:01]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move my second reading amendment:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add ", but the Senate calls on the Government to provide a commitment that no recipient of the Age Pension or a Veteran or Service Pension will be placed on the Cashless Debit Card, with the exception of those who volunteer or are referred by the Family Responsibility Commission, child protection workers, social workers or the Alcohol Mandatory Treatment Tribunal in the Northern Territory".</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Patrick be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [22:04]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>27</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is now that the bill be read a second time.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [22:08]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S (teller)</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>29</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>142</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government opposes items 3 and 4 in schedule 1 in the following terms:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, items 3 and 4, page 3 (lines 8 to 19), TO BE OPPOSED.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>237920</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Lambie</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd actually like to know what the amendments are about.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: The minister is going to speak to that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This amendment seeks to make the transition from the income management scheme in the Northern Territory, from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card, a voluntary scheme. It will allow those people who are currently on the BasicsCard in the Northern Territory who wish to transition to the cashless debit card to do so as a voluntary scheme. If they choose to remain on the BasicsCard they will also be able to do that.</para>
<para>The reason that the government has chosen to proceed with this is because we believe that when people in the Northern Territory are given the option of the advanced technology that is provided by the cashless debit card that they will actually choose to take up this technology. In a sign of commitment to this and the belief that this technology has improved, we are happy for the people—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: I'm sorry, Minister, please resume your seat. If I can't hear the minister then I'm sure others can't as well. Can we have some order, please?</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We firmly believe that the cashless debit card will enable participants to have the opportunity to choose the enhanced functionality and the increased flexibility that is offered by the cashless debit card. That is on the basis that currently the income management system of the BasicsCard allows participants to be able to transact at around only 16,000 terminals, whereas the cashless debit card provides them with the opportunity to make transactions at over 900,000 terminals around Australia. It enables them to use online purchasing. In fact, they can use their card wherever an EFTPOS terminal exists, and the only things that they will be restricted from being able to get access to when using this particular card will be alcohol, gambling products, some gift cards and cash.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to indicate that the opposition will not be supportive of the government's amendments on sheet TK264—which involve two parts, I think. I just want to take issue with one of the things the minister said, because she asserted that this would somehow make this all voluntary. Well, it won't. The amendment will effectively make it a Hobson's choice between a grey card and a green card. So Labor isn't supporting the government's amendment, because it isn't making income management voluntary. What it is doing is simply providing a choice of a different coloured piece of plastic. So, for the reasons that were well ventilated in the second reading debate, we do not support the government's amendments on TK264.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>On the BasicsCard itself, Minister, can you tell me—I believe that's got a runout date? Will it actually need to be revoted on, or does it have an end-of-life date? When is that?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The BasicsCard is an ongoing measure. It is legislated as an ongoing measure. It has an instrument, and I'm actually holding the existing instrument in my hand. I will just take the opportunity whilst I'm answering your question to say that I was a tiny bit disappointed at Senator Wong's accusation that somehow this is entirely a choice between a silver card and a green card, as if the government's going out there and saying, 'You can have a silver card or a green card.' I remind those in this place that there was a bipartisan approach to this and in fact the instrument that you're referring to, Senator Lambie, was actually signed by a member from the other place, Mrs Macklin, when she was the Minister for Families, Community Services and Indigenous Affairs and the Minister for Disability Reform. So, we would continue—this is the instrument as it relates to the Northern Territory—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Order! I can't hear the minister.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I just wanted to put on the record that that was the instrument that was signed by Mrs Macklin back at that time.</para>
<para>Senator Lambie, the instrument has a 10-year life. It was signed in 2012. A disallowable instrument will be introduced into this place in 2022 at the expiry of that 10-year period for this place to vote on again. But the measure, of itself, is an ongoing measure.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me get this right: does the cashless debit card itself include that it is on a two-year trial in the Northern Territory as well? Are you going to swap that straight over, and is it going to have an instrument? I know it's only got two years. So I'm asking you: if they move over to the cashless debit card in the Northern Territory, does that get two years as well? If that's the case, I'm going to encourage them to get over to it now, because it's not going to survive after the two years. That's what I want to know.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The same situation exists whether it be the BasicsCard or the cashless debit card. We haven't actually moved the amendment as yet in relation to the two-year time limit on the cashless debit card. That is the next amendment. But, for the purposes of effect, the cashless debit card or the BasicsCard will still be affected by the same instrument as I just described, which is a disallowable instrument that will be brought into this place in 2022.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So let me get this right: the CDC is ongoing in the Northern Territory, but it's on trial everywhere else in the country—correct? So, in those trial sites, it'll be on trial for a further two years but, in the Northern Territory, the CDC will be ongoing?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, the CDC extension that we're seeking to bring into effect by this legislation today, subject, obviously, to the passage of the amendment that's coming up next, will be a two-year measure. If, at the end of that two years, the decision is not to continue with the cashless debit card, the people in the Northern Territory will remain on income management because it's an ongoing measure, unless this parliament chooses at that time to disallow the instrument. In disallowing the instrument, obviously there would be other impacts of that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What happens if the BasicsCard instrument is disallowed?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, the measure would expire.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If that happens, does that mean no cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, as I explained earlier, the extension to the cashless debit card that we're seeking to make with the next amendment that will be put before the chamber is for a two-year extension on the cashless debit card. Income management, as it exists in the Northern Territory, has a number of measures that are contained within the instrument that currently oversees or encompasses income management. This instrument to which you refer applies to some of them. Some of the other measures are actually not encompassed by this particular measure. The ongoing measure of income management in the Northern Territory is subject to other legislation. What we are seeking to do today is to give the people in the Northern Territory the opportunity to be able to use a different technology. The income management that they are operating under remains the same. It's just that they will be able to use a different technology. It doesn't actually change the income management. Everything that applies to the existing BasicsCard income management legislation remains in place, as it was yesterday.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So let's be clear here. The government just won the second reading vote here because Centre Alliance didn't turn up. I'm naming it. Centre Alliance did not turn up for the vote, folks. For those people listening to this debate—and I know there are many of them—we could have ended this five minutes ago with that vote. Centre Alliance didn't even have the guts to come in here and vote with the government; they just did not turn up. So why is the government circulating these amendments? It is because you've done a deal with Centre Alliance, haven't you? That's because you know that you won't win on the third vote unless you make these amendments—which, make no mistake, keep the cashless debit card running. All those people listening tonight, thinking they were going to be off this card because Centre Alliance had said they didn't support it, are now hugely disappointed. And the person who made that decision didn't even have the guts to turn up here and face this Senate. So why, Minister, are you moving these amendments? Please name it.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I respond to Senator Siewert's question, I also table the two supplementary explanatory memoranda relating to the amendments that I'm currently in the process of moving. Senator Siewert, I acknowledge your position on this measure and I respect your position on this measure. The reason the government has sought to move these two amendments, I would have thought was fairly obvious. We absolutely stand by the belief that the people of the Northern Territory, when given the choice as to whether to change the technology—and that really all it is, Senator Siewert, and I think you acknowledge it is nothing more than a change in the technology—will see the benefit. I can tell you from firsthand experience: I spent a number of days in the Northern Territory earlier this year and I went out to communities and I spoke to a lot of people who were on the BasicsCard. I sat with them and I explained to them the differences between the BasicsCard and the CDC, and almost without exception the people I was speaking to said, 'I would rather have the CDC than the BasicsCard.' This is not a debate about whether you have income management or not. It is merely a technology upgrade, and that is what this measure seeks to do, Senator Siewert.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The people of the Northern Territory were very clear. This morning, in my contribution to the second reading debate, I read out a letter that had been sent to Senator Patrick and the crossbenchers. That letter made it very clear that Aboriginal organisations, who represent thousands of Aboriginal people in the Northern Territory, did not support the cashless debit card. They don't support compulsory income management. In fact, some organisations in the Northern Territory that originally supported compulsory income management have changed their position. Why are you not only bringing government amendments that change the conversion to the cashless debit card in the Northern Territory to a voluntary position but also—and I've got to say, of course, I voted to get rid of the cashless debit card with that vote on permanency—suddenly changing your mind about permanency? Name it up.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In relation to your comments around the amendment before the chair—the Northern Territory voluntary opportunity to move from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card—I want to be really clear. The amendment that is before the chair is for the opportunity for people in the Northern Territory who are currently on the BasicsCard to move to the CDC. It is nothing more and nothing less than that. In relation to the two-year time frame that we've put on the extension of the existing sites—or with all of the CDC technology, the four existing trial sites, as well as Cape York—I think there have been a lot of contributions in this place, where people have expressed extreme disappointment that there is not strong empirical data, that there's not quantitative data. Much of the data that we have is qualitative, and some of it is even anecdotal. That's why I spent the time going out and actually speaking to people in communities and asking them what they thought.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Who'd you talk to? Name them.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I did name some of them; I'll take that interjection. In fact, if the senator would like to refer back to my second reading speech, I actually named a number of people who've written to me today from communities asking me for the continuation of the cashless debit card.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Name them.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I did name them in my second reading speech, Senator Thorpe, and you're welcome to look at that. As I said, I acknowledge we do not have the kind of strong data—and I was frustrated, as you are, that we don't have the kind of data. I do have very strong data that you would refer to as qualitative. For that reason, the government has listened to what has been said in this chamber, and we said, okay, during the next two years—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Siewert interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>237920</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Siewert, please!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, we will continue with the existing scheme, and during that time we will put in place an evaluation process. I'll give the commitment to this chamber that the evaluation process and the outcomes of that will be released prior to any decision being requested. If this government happens to be here when the time expires that will be released before the legislation is brought to this chamber.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Have you done a deal with Centre Alliance on this bill? And, if so, what is it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, the deal that I did on this legislation was with the people I spoke to who asked me to continue this—the people of Ceduna who told me that their communities were better, safer, stronger and were moving forward because of this card and a number of other measures. I said this in my second reading speech and I will reiterate it: this is not a silver bullet; it is one of a suite of measures that we are working on with communities to assist them in their desire to be able to make improvements in their communities. These communities have asked the government to assist them with these measures.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Thorpe interjecting—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Order! Senator Thorpe, I'd ask you to extend to other members of the chamber the courtesy they extend to you, please. Senator Lambie.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry—what is that? I have been racially vilified all week.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Oh, please. Senator Lambie.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. I actually don't agree with you over the BasicsCard, and the reason I don't is that I've spent quite a bit of time in Arnhem Land. I was quite disappointed. I would have thought that, after nearly 10 years of being on that card, they would accept it. They were quite resistant to it and they were not interested in going to a new card. I guess these people have another five years ahead of them at the main trial site, in Ceduna. If things are working in the community, it's not because of the damn card; it's because the community is making it work. It was hit-and-miss up there as well. Through the chair, I have a feeling that you may want to get up and say a few things. There are things that haven't been delivered and that card could have done so much better and delivered so much more, but you put them on that BasicsCard and you forgot about them. This is the same pattern of behaviour that I am seeing with the CDC, the cashless debit card. If that's anything to go on and that's the most success we can admit to in 10 years, it really hasn't had much of a bite. Some of the guys are in dry camps, and that's great. The community has done that, not the card.</para>
<para>You can keep on the road you are travelling with that cashless debit card all you like, but, unless you put in effort, it's going to end up like that and you won't get the results. There are no more jobs than there were eight or nine years ago. They're still struggling to understand even the basics of the card. If someone else wants to get up and say something more about that, that's fine. What I would like to know, though, is this. We have the Northern Territory Credit Union. When does that start getting involved? It's obviously going to have to pick up the cashless debit card. Has that deal been done? Is that ready to go?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much, Senator Lambie. I can advise that we have signed an agreement with the Traditional Credit Union in the Northern Territory to start working on the pathway for them to be an issuer of the card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I put to the minister a question around the organisations that the minister has spoken to. This amendment has been brought on suddenly. Which organisations have you spoken to in the Northern Territory?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This matter has been discussed with a number of organisations, Senator McCarthy, but I'm going to have to take your question on notice in order to provide you with the exact ones. I was actually just asking for the list of people I've consulted. As soon as I have it, I'll put it on the record.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You've just brought in this amendment now, and we have been working on your legislation since it was introduced into the House. It went through the House and came to the Senate. You must have spoken to those organisations in the last two hours. Surely you would know who you've spoken to in order to bring this amendment in so late—now.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My consultations in relation to this particular legislation have been ongoing for over a year. I have listened to what people have had to say and I have listened to what you and others have said in this place. My decision to seek to make this amendment was on the basis of wideranging discussions that I've had. I must admit, I'm somewhat surprised that, after listening to the contributions that have been made by those opposite, you appear not to be supportive of the proposal that's before the chair.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not sure how you could be surprised about my position, Minister, given all the statements I've made in the Senate on it. You've now said that you're bringing in an amendment to make going from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card voluntary whereas earlier today it was about completely moving everyone, over 22,000 people, directly to the cashless debit card. You used the term 'voluntary', but, if we all look at the definition of 'voluntary', it is about choice. People who are on income management in the Northern Territory are not there by choice. There is no 'voluntary' here. So who did you speak to in the last hour or two in order to bring this amendment in around what you perceive as being a voluntary movement from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think I've already answered that question. The voluntary nature of this amendment is, as you rightly point out, a voluntary decision to move from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card. That is the only thing that I was referring to when I was referring to it being voluntary.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll shed some light on that for you, if you like, so you know the truth. That was discussed last night with Centre Alliance, and that is where that has come from. I'll be honest, because I'm not going to sit here and lie to the Australian people. It's shameful that you're doing that over something like this. Be honest. You haven't gone out and consulted about this, and yet I understand you want all of the Northern Territory to be on it. You didn't get away with that. You did the deal with Centre Alliance so people could be given an option. Good on Centre Alliance for at least lowering it to that scale, not making them all go on it. But that's exactly how it went down just over 24 hours ago. I'm not going to sit here and—I'm sorry. I'm not doing this.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a couple of questions that arise out of the amendment. As I understand the amendment and the minister's explanation of it, it actually envisages a parallel system in the Northern Territory for both the cashless debit card and the BasicsCard. Given the minister's comments about the additional costs of the BasicsCard—per year, from memory—I wonder if she can indicate to us the forward estimate cost of the dual system that is contemplated by the amendment.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is currently subject to commercial negotiations. As soon as they've been concluded, they will be published.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not correct. I'm sorry; you can't give her that advice. It may well be subject to commercial negotiations. There is a cost provision, which has to have been made, associated with the bill and the amendment. I'm asking what the cost provision is. I'm not asking for the terms of the tender.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The budget measure is not for publication.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So not only do we have an amendment that the minister won't front up to the Senate about in terms of how it has arisen or when it was negotiated or the fact that she doesn't appear to have consulted with people about it outside of this place, but she also won't tell us what it costs. That's pretty good! Do we have any estimate about the number of people that you are assuming will transition to the cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said in my second reading speech, the government is committed to providing the people on the BasicsCard with some advanced technology. We certainly believe that the majority of them—in fact the 25,000 people that are currently using the BasicsCard—we believe that the appropriate consultation and support to people to give them the information that they need to understand the increased functionality of this particular card—we believe that the majority of those 25,000 people will transition across to the card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, I think at the end of that—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Ayres interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was trying to be more polite than that, Senator Ayres, thank you—long explanation involving a lot of words, there was a fact. You said that you anticipate that the majority of the 25,000 people currently on the BasicsCard would transition to the CDC. Is that what you said, Minister?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That is correct.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How many of those people are First Nations people?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe it's approximately 68 per cent.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a message from those people in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg. They would like to know why those in the Northern Territory are only going to be on 50-50 on the CDC while they're on 80-20. They would like to look at legal proceedings around that because they believe that they're being discriminated against. Can you tell me whether or not you've had any legal advice in relation to the splitting of the cards?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the broad consultation that has been undertaken with the people of the Northern Territory, it was very clear that they wished to transition. If they were to transition, they wanted to go across at the same rate that they were currently on on the BasicsCard. In effect, the existing BasicsCard legislation would be replaced almost in its entirety if they choose to transition over to the CDC.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Northern Territory is on 50-50, and then you've got the larger white population in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg on 80-20. You don't think that this is starting to divide the country? Once again, have you had legal advice, because you've got one lot on 50-50 and you've got the other lot on 80-20? I'm asking you: before this is taken to court—which no doubt it will be—have you had legal advice on whether this is discriminatory?</para>
<para>The whites in Hervey Bay and Bundaberg are telling me they've got a sniff of this. What you're doing is creating a greater divide here. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You're going to have 50-50 in the Northern Territory—I'm not being racist, and I'm not telling you anything else; I'm simply telling you how they're feeling over there right now, just like I would with the people in the Northern Territory. They are feeling like they're being discriminated against because they're on 80-20 and the ones going on the CDC in the Northern Territory will be on 50-50. I'm just asking if you've had any legal advice on that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As is the usual practice, I'm not going to divulge what legal advice the government has received or not received. However, I would note that this is an ongoing measure.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Do the provisions in the current bill that give the minister the power to change it from fifty-fifty to another figure remain, or are they taken out with these amendments if somebody transfers voluntarily onto the cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, could you just ask that question again?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's about the provisions in the current bill, which give the minister the ability to change the fifty-fifty split. The original legislation said that when people moved from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card the fifty-fifty would generally remain. But under the new bill the minister would have the power to change that under certain circumstances. Does that remain or is that being taken away with these amendments?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The provisions are the same provisions that currently exist for the BasicsCard, but it requires broad community support to make that change.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Even if someone transfers voluntarily onto the cashless debit card, that provision will remain?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The existing provisions in the legislation which governs income management with the BasicsCard will not change. What we're seeking to do here is merely to enable those people who are currently on the BasicsCard to have a CDC instead of a BasicsCard. All other provisions that exist in the legislation are the same.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just say that a community decided it did want to change it. What happens with the people who have transferred onto the cashless debit card—if they have? Is that a separate process?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a simultaneous process. But I would also note that the CDC offers the opportunity for somebody who is on a particular rate of income management to choose to have a higher rate of their income quarantined. It makes that possible.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to go back to my question, and perhaps you misunderstood me or I didn't make the denominator clear. I was actually asking about the proportion and number of people on income management in the Northern Territory who are First Nations people.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There are 25,000 people in the Northern Territory who are on income management, and I've just been advised that 81 per cent of those are Indigenous. I think that 34 per cent of Australians who are on income management across the whole of Australia are Indigenous, but that includes all income management and not just the cashless debit card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to be clear: 81 per cent of the 25,000 Australians who are on income management in the Northern Territory are First Nations Australians?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's correct, Senator Wong.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister explain how, when 81 per cent of 25,000 people who are currently on income management are First Nations people, she can argue that this card is not racially discriminatory?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Income management is not designed for a particular people. It is designed for a specific purpose. In different parts of the country, and under different regimes, different people have been put on a form of income management. Some of them are on the BasicsCard and some have been on CDC, and there is a range of reasons people go onto income management. But it is not racially specific.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>But the effect of it is! It falls differently on Australians, depending on their race—certainly in the Northern Territory. What percentage of people currently on the CDC in Ceduna are First Nations people?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Seventy-six per cent of people in Ceduna and communities surrounding Ceduna are on the card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What of the same question in respect of the people in the Goldfields and the Kimberley?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the interest of completeness, in the Bundaberg and Hervey Bay area 18 per cent of the people on the card are Indigenous, in the Goldfields 48 per cent of the people on the card are Indigenous, in the East Kimberley 82 per cent of the people on the card are Indigenous and in Ceduna 76 per cent of people on the card are Indigenous, making a total on average across those four sites of 40 per cent of the people that are on the cashless debit card are Indigenous.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Perhaps the minister can remind the chamber what the percentage of the Australian population which is First Nations is.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My understanding is that the percentage of the population in Australia that is Indigenous is around two per cent. However, I would like to put on the record that in the case of the Ceduna community—I think I included this in my second reading speech—the reason that we have the cashless debit card is that the people that actually developed the cashless debit card in Ceduna did so as a result of the coronial inquest into the sleeping rough inquiry that occurred on the back of six tragic deaths in their community because of people sleeping rough because of alcohol and drug related harm that people were doing to themselves. It was actually the Indigenous community leaders of the communities around the Ceduna area that sought for this card to be introduced in their community.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the figures speak for themselves. I'm conscious that others have questions. Across the population you have two to three per cent who identify as First Nations. Eighty-one per cent of those on income management in the Northern Territory are First Nations. It's 76 per cent in Ceduna and it's 82 per cent in the East Kimberley. Even in the Goldfields, which is substantially lower, it's 48 per cent. It's a card that disproportionately is targeted at First Australians.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, how were these areas selected—Ceduna, East Kimberley, Kalgoorlie, Bundaberg and Hervey Bay? Were they selected by the government, or which way? How were they selected?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The community self-selected. The cashless debit card trial sites in the four areas that we have been discussing were put in place at the request of the community leaders in each of these communities.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, why isn't this racist?</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Lambie?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Do I get an answer?</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: The minister is not obliged to answer questions. Please resume your seat, because I've given the call to Senator Lambie, unless she wants to cede it back to you.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Lambie</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll hang on. She can go.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What evidence do you have, Minister, that this is not racist? Can I ask that question? Am I allowed to ask that question?</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Thorpe, you can ask whatever question you like and the minister can choose to answer or not answer.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Great. Minister, please tell me: why is this not racist? I just need an explanation for the Aboriginal people watching across this country. They want to know why this is not racist. Can you please answer. Please.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Thorpe. Can I first apologise. You were so quick on the question I didn't get to answer. I didn't realise you'd asked a question, so I apologise. I was not being rude or disrespectful to your question. The card is not designed on the basis of race. It's designed on the basis of need as identified by communities around Australia who have come forward and sought for the card to be introduced into their communities.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have veterans in some of these trial sites, and because DVA takes years to do their payments they're sitting on disability support pensions. Could you please tell me that there are absolutely none of them who, because of the situation they're in while they're fighting DVA, are on the CDC card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can give you an undertaking that Veterans' Affairs pensioners are not subject to this card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I didn't ask you about Veterans' Affairs cards, because we already know about Veterans' Affairs, that their payments can be two or three years and they have to go on a disability support pension from Centrelink to cover that in the meantime. So, to me, there will be some of them who will be stuck on this card while they are fighting the Department of Veterans' Affairs, and sometimes that can take five or six years. They are veterans waiting for their claims to get through. I can tell you now there are some of these who are not going to be able to avoid this. Do you intend to do anything about this? I'm quite sure this has just been brought to your attention, but that is the truth of the matter. They have been serving their country. These claims are taking so long, the support they're getting is from Centrelink—they're getting disability support pensions. Are they going to be put on the card or are you going to give them an exemption? How are you going to exempt them?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There are a number of people who are on disability support pensions who are affected by the cashless debit card. It was actually one of the design features that were sought by the leaders when they designed the card, because they believed that there were a number of their more vulnerable community members who were on disability support pension who they wanted to have the benefit of the card. That is why the disability support pension was included in some of the sites. In relation to your comments around veterans who are in the process of making application for a Veterans' Affairs pension, there are two ways that they can exit from the card. One is around financial wellbeing and the other one is a demonstration of being able to adequately manage their affairs. However, if you have a particular example of somebody who is in the situation to which you refer that you would like the government to have a look at, I will be more than happy to take that on on your behalf.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>How many people on the disability support pension have transitioned off that so far?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, I apologise. I'm going to have to take that on notice. I will try and get it to you before the final reading tonight, but I will certainly get that information for you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You have veterans receiving part-payment disability pension for whatever reason from Centrelink and receiving payment from DVA. Where does it leave them? Are they going to be put on the cashless debit card? I will give you the ones from the trial site over the next week, but I also understand how this card is going to work. When I joined it five years ago—they won't tell you this, but I will—the reason they have this card is that eventually it's going to go across the country. That is the big picture. I know that. These veterans, they show they have served. I'm asking you if they can be removed from the card. There has got to be a simpler way. It shouldn't have to come from me. Remove the rigmarole, send you a letter and do the rest. Can you please put an exemption so that if they can show they have served with their service record they are to be removed immediately?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>22:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If the primary payment of the person is a Veterans' Affairs pension then they would not be subject to this card. I have taken on notice to find out for you whether there are any who are on part-pension, and I will get back to you on notice on that. In relation to the government's policy on this matter, this bill reflects the government's policy.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to get it clear. All I want to know is: if for some reason, as this card is spreading around—which it more than likely will; I don't see it in a hurry, but maybe not—if a person at these trial sites can show you that they have been a member of the forces and they're receiving a pension, for whatever reason, under that, do they get an exemption? Could you put a policy through Centrelink to give them an exemption?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm happy to take on notice the question that you've asked in relation to people who have served our country, and I will look into that and come back to you in the very near future, after I've had the opportunity to have a look at the specific circumstances around the policy request you've just made of me. And I will come back to you.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, it's very sad and disappointing to see the terms 'racist' and 'racism' used as an excuse. Whenever I've seen it, it's been an excuse covering a lack of facts and solid logical argument. It seems to be meant to intimidate, silence and divert. It won't silence people who have the facts. Has there ever been any targeting of groups, either under Labor or under the Liberal-National government? Or is this initiative broadly based upon people's needs and protecting children?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The measure is targeted at people who are on working-age income support within geographical areas.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator THORPE</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just because it's, as you say, not racist, how can you be sure it's not racist? How will you address these concerns that Aboriginal people across the country are saying that it is racist?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Thorpe, I can absolutely assure you that I make it my business to consult with the communities that have sought to have this card in place around Australia—the four sites of Bundaberg and Hervey Bay up in the Hinkler area, the Goldfields, the Kimberley and Ceduna—and also have consulted broadly in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Just a moment, Minister. Senator Thorpe?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order: the question was, how do you address that this is not racist? You can ramble off people you've spoken to, but what is the evidence—</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Thorpe, that's not—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Parliamentary language—</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: No, no, no; that's not a point of order, and you're restating the question, which the minister—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, she's not answering the question.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Okay, well, when the minister's finished, jump up and put another question to her.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Thorpe</name>
    <name.id>280304</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Thanks.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Senator Thorpe. To be quicker in my answer: it's via consultation that we make sure that we keep ourselves up to date on the issues that are occurring within the four trial sites, and making sure that the card and all the other services that sit around the card reflect the needs and wants of those communities.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, it seems to be continuing on this racist theme. My understanding of 'racist' and 'racism' is where one group, a particular race, is classified or thought of as inferior or superior. Is there any discussion at all, or labelling, within the department of any group as inferior or superior? Or is this based on needs?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I have stated on a number of occasions, the cashless debit card is in places where the community have sought the support and help of the government through the implementation of this card and other associated measures—and there are quite a number of them, including many of the wraparound services and support services that exist as well. The card is in places on the basis of the request of the leaders within a geographical community area.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to go back to the issue that was raised earlier today and was touched upon by Senator Lambie's question, which is future government policy. The government has made a range of assertions about the CDC. Government members and senators have made a range of assertions including Senator Canavan saying, 'I think it is now time we take the evidence on board and roll it out across the country.' The bill before the chamber has changed in the last hour and a half because of a deal you've done with Centre Alliance, which changes government policy. I'd like to know what government policy is? Is government policy the extension of the trial sites? Is government policy the extension of the trial sites for a period plus a dual system on those on income management in the Northern Territory? Is government policy what Senator Canavan is flagging, which is broader rollout? What is government policy?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, government policy is, on the basis of the bill that's before us, the continuation of the trial sites for a period of two years, obviously subject to the passage of the amendment that we're yet to get to, and the opportunity and the offering of the cashless debit card as a piece of technology for other people who are on other forms of income management, most specifically, in this instance, the BasicsCard, in the Northern Territory and in Cape York. We have always been very clear that any community that would come under the cashless debit card or income management would have to seek for that to happen themselves. The government does not seek to impose the cashless debit card on to communities. It is very clear in the legislation that the cashless debit card communities are those that have come forward and sought to have this measure put in place in their community.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It is my understanding from the comments you made earlier that you're going to do an assessment. So can I ask: what are you going to with the evaluations that you've got underway now or supposed to have finished, which just cost the nation $2.5 million?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, once I have received the evaluation and had the opportunity to evaluate it—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Siewert interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert that is not correct. I will release the report. I've been on the public record on a number of occasions to say that I will release that report. But can I just put on the record that there is nobody in this chamber that's more frustrated than me about the lack of quantitative data around these measures. As you rightly point out, the government has put millions of dollars into these evaluations, and they do provide valuable insights. We have had a number of reports commissioned over the years. You would be much more aware of the time frames of these. Your interest in this matter goes back a very long way, but mine does, too, particularly in the Ceduna area before I came to this place. They do provide very valuable insights and thoughts about the cashless debit card, but what they haven't been able to provide, and what I want to get access to, is the hard, quantitative data.</para>
<para>I accept that it is incredibly disappointing that we're not standing here with the kind of information that we would have liked. I'd like to be able to tell you the amount of money that went through bottle shops before and after the trial, I'd like to tell you about the number of hospital presentations and I'd like to tell you about the number of police call-outs. But all I have is anecdotal evidence from speaking to the police, or medical people or the call-out centre, and travelling with the MAPs bus. I have that information, and it's consistent and it's consistent across all the sites.</para>
<para>I hear what you're saying, Senator Siewert, and that is what I intend to do.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>According to <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> on Tuesday, some of the data was released—as I understand it—from the Goldfields. Was the information reported there on the money? In other words, very few people wanted the card extended and it wasn't showing the sorts of results that would show it was a glowing success.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about, Senator Siewert. However, I do know that there was some early data released before anything was finalised. My understanding is that there has subsequently been more evaluation and research undertaken in the Goldfields. I'm not necessarily sure that the final results reflect the information you're talking about. But I will get back to you with clarity around the data that you're talking about when I'm able to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I've listened to the debate and I've listened to some of the questions that have been asked here tonight. The question being asked about this being racism really disturbs me—that it's racist in the policy of picking areas where this is to happen.</para>
<para>I asked the minister directly how this came about and the areas that were picked. The areas were picked because the community leaders—whether that be the mayors, the councillors, the community itself or the business leaders—asked for this trial. The whole fact is that, yes, they're saying it's because of the population, and Senator Wong asked the question about the percentages. We got in the high 40 per cents for one area being Indigenous, and yet in another area there were only 18 per cent Indigenous, and the majority were non-Indigenous.</para>
<para>As a parliament, and leaders of this nation, we need to look at what's in the best interests of the people. This was a trial that was put out, and these were the communities that asked for the trial. It's a card which is actually going to restrict spending money to 80 per cent being spent on essential services. That means paying the rent, buying food and buying clothes for the kids. It actually ensures there's food on the table. Isn't the basis of what we all should be concerned about the wellbeing of the children? Adults can take care of themselves; children can't. Children rely on their parents. If we have a problem in our society where the parents are tied up with alcohol, or drug abuse or gambling and the money doesn't get to where it should, then isn't that the basis of why we're looking at this card?</para>
<para>It doesn't matter what race or what the colour of your skin is; we have problems right across our whole society; in regional and rural areas especially there's a huge drug problem. I hear it constantly, all the time. The thing is that some ask if it's racist. I could go into many areas where I can see we have racist policies in Australia, purely based on the fact that because you're Indigenous you get extra funding. You get care. But I'm not going to head down that path. Many Australians know that, and I don't think that's the basis of what we should be looking at here.</para>
<para>I've travelled in Indigenous communities—I've been there and I've seen the problems that we have there. But it's not only in Indigenous communities; we have them in other areas in Australia, and they need to be addressed. As the leaders of this nation, we must look at what we're trying to achieve here. It's for the benefit of the future generations. Kids in these communities are not getting schooled. They are not getting the care that they need. They're not getting fed.</para>
<para>The fact is, that's what we need to address. We also have to look at the fact that the communities have asked for this. I've listened to the Indigenous leaders who have begged for this card, said that they want this card. We have people opting in for the card. We have people in communities saying, 'We can't control our money, because our family and friends come to us and force us to hand money over to them.' Now they have control of their money. What are you actually worried about? They've still got 20 per cent of their money that they can spend as they wish; 80 per cent is going to go towards their household needs and towards looking after their children. If you look at the stats and reports—and I haven't got the figures in front of me—over 40 per cent were actually saying that there is less drug use, less gambling, less domestic violence. The police report that came in said that they are having less domestic violence and fewer problems. More kids are going to school, and they're actually being fed before they go to school.</para>
<para>These are the actual facts. To sit here and argue over whether it is racist policy is not what this is about. And I'm sick of some people in this chamber sitting there as if they're the victims. Our job is to make sure that there is good policy for all people, all Australians—that they have the benefit of our wise decisions, because they are relying on us to make the right decisions in this parliament. It is also a fact that on websites and on the opposition side of parliament we are seeing scaremongering going on—the things they are telling the elderly about who is going to be affected by this. People are ringing up my office and saying, 'Well, it is the age pensioners who are going to be losing this, due to the card.' But there is no talk about that whatsoever. That question has been asked by the government. It is not going to include the aged. So, I'm sick of the scaremongering that's going on, because I'm getting that at my office, and it is up on the website, clearly stating that it is the elderly, and the veterans. So, people think that you're going to tie them up in this, but it's got nothing to do with them. This has been completely blown out of proportion by people not telling the truth to the Australian people so that they can know the benefits of this card.</para>
<para>Minister, can you clarify here, in this chamber, to the people of Australia: are age pensioners going to be involved in this card? Are the people who are on disability pensions going to be included on this card? Who is it actually going to affect? And I think the Australian people need to have a direct answer. Is this going to be rolled out in this term of parliament, up until the next election, to all Australians? That is what is being said to Australians, in lies that are being put out by the opposition and by the Greens party. People have to have an honest answer that is recorded here in the parliament. Is it going to include the elderly? Is it going to include those on disability pensions? Is it going to be rolled out to all Australians before the next election? And what do you intend to do with your policies after the next election?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll try to answer all the components of Senator Hanson's questions and contribution, and I apologise if I miss some of them, but I'm more than happy to come back to them. Firstly, I acknowledge the second reading amendment of Senator Patrick, which gave us the opportunity to put on the record that the government has provided a commitment through the supporting of that second reading amendment that no recipient of the age pension or a veteran or services pension will be placed on the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>There are, however, a couple of exceptions to that, and I want to put that on the record very, very clearly. There are two main categories of exemption. People on the age pension are able to voluntarily seek to go on to the BasicsCard or the CDC. We know that around 2½ thousand people on the BasicsCard in the Northern Territory have gone on voluntarily, and, of the 2½ thousand people that are on voluntarily, over 800 are age pensioners. The second category of people who could be on income management who are of pension age or are on a pension card are those that have been referred by the Family Responsibilities Commission—and, for those who are listening and don't know what the Family Responsibilities Commission is, it is the group of commissioners in Cape York that make the decisions in relation to the people of that community, and it's also contained in this bill—or where child protection workers, social workers or the Alcohol Mandatory Treatment Tribunal in the Northern Territory has requested, on the basis of the safety of the individual or the safety of those in their care, that they go on to the card. There are very few people on the card for that reason. However, I just want to be very clear: those are the only two categories of people on the age pension that are subject to income management.</para>
<para>In relation to your comments on the information and the data, around what we are seeing as improvements as a result of the cashless debit card and income management, as I said, they are not silver bullet remedies for some of the problems that the cashless debit card and the BasicsCard were seeking to reduce. They are one component of a suite of measures that need to be put together to bring about the kind of change that the communities who have sought access to the cashless debit card have requested. From reading the letter of support that I received from the community leaders in Ceduna, there were many things that the community has observed over the time that the cashless debit card has been in place in that community.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson, I will read just a little bit of the letter I received. It says: 'Since the introduction of the cashless debit card, we have observed positive changes in our communities. Fewer vulnerable people have been harassed or humbugged'—those are their words—'to hand over cash to others. More children are attending school. Families have money to spend on groceries, and alcohol fuelled violence has decreased. Our communities are safer. People are saying they have the money they need to provide for the basics of life, such as buying clothes and food, and paying rent and bills.' Community leaders across the whole of Australia have signed this letter, which was sent to me today, from all of the trial sites around Australia. They say more, but the final sentence is: 'In order to create stronger, safer and healthier communities now and for generations to come, we call upon our parliamentary representatives to pass the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Continuation of Cashless Welfare) Bill 2020.' Those are the words of the people at the coalface. They are the people whose communities this card serves.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have to ask the question, then: if you didn't have such a positive response, would you continue with the cashless debit card or would you drop it? You said you've had positive feedback. Would the government pursue extending it if it wasn't working?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson, the most important component of the cashless debit card trial sites has been the commitment and the participation of the community leaders within those communities. We constantly receive advice and feedback from those community leaders. It is the reason that we are seeking to continue the trial sites for the cashless debit card, because it is those people who are talking to us and telling us their stories that drive this.</para>
<para>I was in Ceduna on the weekend with Senator Patrick. I suppose it was interesting. Senator Patrick said to <inline font-style="italic">The Advertiser</inline>, 'Ceduna probably kicked me from a no to a position where I'm considering voting for it.' That was how powerful seeing the people at the coalface and hearing firsthand their pleas on behalf of their community about the continuation of the card was. I know that this is a difficult subject for some in this chamber, and I certainly acknowledge that, but the thing that struck me the most was going out to a community not far out of Ceduna called Koonibba. Koonibba is a reasonably small community. There would be fewer than 200 people living in Koonibba. But just a few weeks ago Southern Launch, which is a big satellite organisation in South Australia, picked the Koonibba lands as the place for their launch. The community told me how fantastic it was for the people of Koonibba to have the opportunity to work with and for Southern Launch to assist them in their launch activities. They subsequently asked me—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>287062</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Hanson?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think this is a very important debate. I'm sorry; I'd like to draw attention to the Greens. The humour that's going on here during this debate in their own little corner—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Order!</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is a courtesy of the chamber that the minister should be able to have her say in peace. I'm listening intently—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Order! I call the Greens to order. Senator Hanson.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I just think that it's a bit rude of the Greens, with the humour that's going on here and the laughing. We should be able to hear what the minister has to say—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Senator Hanson, I take your point of order. I ask all senators to act in a parliamentary way. Senator Wong has the call.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's your ruling? Thank you. I'll proceed with the committee stage. Minister, I wanted to respond to a couple of things, if I may, that Senator Hanson said, and then I'll ask you a couple of questions.</para>
<para>Senator Hanson firstly accused some people in this chamber of 'playing the victim'. I'm sure she wasn't necessarily keen to listen to my second reading speech, but one of the points I made in that is that I think that our First Nations representatives here in the Senate and in the lower house, from the Labor Party, Senators McCarthy and Dodson and Ms Burney, and obviously other First Nations members, demonstrate courage every day. I don't think they come in here and play the victim. They come in here and seek—and are often rebuffed—to progress reconciliation and to progress policies that matter to them, to their parties and to their people. To simply dismiss them as 'playing the victim' is disrespectful, and I disagree with it. I'm up-front enough to say to you respectfully: I disagree.</para>
<para>The second thing with which I disagree is your suggestion—I think you were referring to the Labor Party; I wasn't sure—that we were lying about the possibility of a broader rollout. You can say that. But I would make the point that, out of the government's own mouths, they have talked about broader application. I think it is legitimate for a party to raise this fact when you firstly have Senator Canavan saying, I think two days ago, 'I think it's time we take the evidence on board and roll it out across the country,' when in February this minister said, 'It does need to have a broader application,' and when the Prime Minister said, 'The CDC is commending itself for wider application.' I appreciate that you have a different view on this policy measure. You're entitled to that. The Labor Party disagree with it, but I think it is entirely reasonable for us to point out that out of the mouths of the coalition is an indication that this is something that they want to roll out more broadly. I don't think that's an illegitimate thing for us to raise in public debate.</para>
<para>I turn now to a question to the minister, which is in relation to the provisions under the ASIC Act, the Australian Securities and Investments Commission Act. Section 12DL provides that a person must not send another person a credit card except in specified circumstances. I think it is clear from the ASIC letter that ASIC—and I invite the minister to explain her answer, because, despite her tone towards Senator McCarthy, I don't believe the letter supports the assertions she made—did grant a no-action letter in relation to the CDC, but only in relation to the initial trial. ASIC says that that 2016 letter 'was specified to apply to the trial of the program' and, 'It does not cover the proposed ongoing and broader program to be enabled by the bill.' The letter goes on to say that obviously nothing that ASIC does can actually change the operation of the law itself; it simply indicates no action.</para>
<para>If you are prevented by section 12DL—I assume you've considered this in is the deal that you've offered Ms Sharkie—from sending out a card to communities, what is the proposition? I'm sure Senator McCarthy can explain to you the postal service for some of the communities that are being described and the significant impediments that would be put in place for your plan if, indeed, you can't actually send it out. Are you expecting people to come in and collect it? What is the plan for this so-called transition for people who are currently, involuntarily, on income management to move from one to the other?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the risk of repeating myself, to be very clear: there are no further plans or decisions that have been made in relation to the future of the cashless debit card. What the government policy is is before us at the moment. However, we will continue to work with community leaders, stakeholders and communities generally about the benefits and opportunities that we can offer them by working with them.</para>
<para>I'll go to your question around ASIC and section 12DL. Senator McCarthy, I want to put on the record that I meant no offence to you personally in my response; I just wanted to make it really clear that I understood very clearly that the ASIC determination does not apply to what we are intending to do in the way that we are proposing that the card will be offered to people in the Northern Territory. The reason that I say that, Senator Wong, is because the intention of the method to offer the card is actually to go out to communities, one by one, and work with communities to explain to them the benefits of the card and to help them in the process of moving from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>In fact, we as a government, through Services Australia, do remote servicing around the Northern Territory. We do it around the whole of Australia; we make sure that we provide a service to people, even if they're in the most remote of communities. For people who want to go on to the cashless debit card, we are now offering a voluntary transfer from the BasicsCard to the cashless welfare card which entirely circumvents the issue which has been raised today by Senator McCarthy. However, it doesn't change the intention of the government in relation to how we intend to continue to consult with and assist people in the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>In fact, in the consultations that I did in January this year when I was in the Northern Territory, I went to a number of communities and we spoke about how they would like the information to be provided to them about the cashless debit card. They sought for that information to be provided to them in person, and often the request was for it to be in first language—and I acknowledge that there are quite a number of those, Senator McCarthy. So the process to make this offering to the Northern Territory will probably take some time, but it is our intention to engage one on one with communities as this card is offered out into the Northern Territory.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just following on from Senator Wong there with the ASIC situation, we've got over 200 communities, and one of the biggest issues is the inability to have letterboxes in each of the houses, and in Alice Springs we have 15 to 18 town camps. So if we follow that thinking in the ruling of ASIC in the letter we talked about today, how do you propose to not put the department and the government in a precarious situation legally if you cannot deliver these cards and you have to actually ask each of those families first? Have you sought a legal understanding of whether you can actually do that?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The method by which this activity occurs is no different to how people who are currently on the BasicsCard would seek to get another BasicsCard if they lost one or how people would get a BasicsCard if they came on to the BasicsCard and had not previously been on the card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>But, Minister, we are talking about the Indue card, which is not the BasicsCard. It is actually a separate card altogether. So you are actually delivering a new credit card, or debit card in this instance. Is there an assumption that, just because they have the BasicsCard, you can automatically roll out the cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McCarthy, the question that is currently before the chair, the amendment that I moved a while ago, actually seeks to make the option for people on the BasicsCard to move to the cashless debit card a voluntary action. In undertaking that voluntary action to seek to have the BasicsCard, the consent is ipso facto given by the person who is seeking to have the card. So it's not a matter of the card being posted to somebody who didn't know that it was arriving; the person actually has to actively engage in the process to seek to change from the BasicsCard to the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>The amendment that is currently before us completely negates the issue that we were discussing today in question time. The issue we were discussing in question time was specifically about the means by which somebody would receive a financial instrument—which, as I've said, we were already intending to be able to respond to through the means by which we will be consulting with communities and offering the card up. But the fact that it is now a voluntary measure completely overrides the issue that we have been discussing today.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So how long will those people on the BasicsCard in the Northern Territory who don't want to go on the cashless debit card stay on the BasicsCard before you expect that they should be going onto the cashless debit card?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The very nature of this amendment is that if people do not wish to go onto the cashless debit card there is no requirement for them to do so. What I'm seeking to do by this particular amendment is to say to people—we will certainly provide everybody who is currently on the BasicsCard with the information about the increased functionality of the cashless debit card. The comparison between the two cards is quite stark. I know you've bothered to inform yourself around the two different cards. One of the biggest issues that was raised initially with the rollout of the cashless debit card, when it was clearly obvious that that's what it was—it had a big 'Indue' written on the front of it, and, similarly, the BasicsCard is lime green and people have to use a BasicsCard terminal—is that it is quite obvious to anybody and everybody if somebody has one of these cards. The cashless debit card now does not have any identification on it to indicate that it is a cashless debit card. It is just a silver card.</para>
<para>One of the technological advancements that is being put in place and worked on—once again I give a shout-out to Senator O'Sullivan, who has been working with a number of the technology operators and the wider community—is to make it available so that people can actually have the card on their phone, so they just tap and pay. In doing so you remove any obviousness of the fact that the payment method that the person is using to buy their items is actually an income management card.</para>
<para>The technology is very advanced. In the process of consulting with communities and making the offering we will seek to put to people who are on the BasicsCard the increased functionality that is available to them. There are 16,000 outlets that will take the BasicsCard; over 900,000 outlets will take the CDC. You can use the CDC online. You can use the CDC to make overseas purchases. So the actual functionality of the cashless debit card is significantly enhanced from the BasicsCard that is currently in place in the Northern Territory.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're debating this piece of legislation now in committee stage because one member of this chamber changed their position in favour of allowing the government's agenda to continue. That of course was Senator Griff. He is not here. He didn't bother to vote on the second reading amendment. He has left the building tonight. He's not here to debate the details of this bill. Rebekha Sharkie, the member for Mayo, and Senator Griff, Centre Alliance, were both clearly on the record opposing this piece of legislation. South Australians should be very aware that this is not the first time that Centre Alliance—Rebekha Sharkie, the member for Mayo, and Senator Griff—have said one thing one week and done another thing days later, to the detriment of the Australian community.</para>
<para>Only a couple of months ago Centre Alliance voted with the government in an attack on universities and university students. Now, on Christmas Eve, we have a gutless stunt by Rebekha Sharkie and Senator Stirling Griff—</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Hanson-Young, I think you're aware that you need to refer to Senator Sharkie—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I was just about to correct myself. On the eve of Christmas, in the last sitting of this parliament, we've had the member for Mayo, Rebekha Sharkie, and Senator Stirling Griff gutlessly allowing this piece of legislation—which they opposed in the House of Representatives and which they told the Australian community they did not support—to pass and to have a detrimental effect on those who have for years argued with members in this place to change this awful, awful system. It is detrimental to the lives of these people. It does have a disproportionate impact on First Nations communities. And, despite all the promises that have been made, Centre Alliance is now just allowing the government to do what they want.</para>
<para>The member for Mayo, Rebekha Sharkie, is quickly being known as someone you just can't trust. You can't trust her word on anything. Centre Alliance say one thing in Adelaide and another thing in Canberra. They say one thing on Monday and do another thing on Wednesday night. Their word is useless. They don't tell the truth when it comes to what their agenda is. They don't disclose the deals they do with this government. And they come into this place and purport to argue for transparency and accountability. Their word is mud. You can't trust them. You shouldn't vote for them. And they should not be protected.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Hanson-Young, please resume your seat. Senator Hanson?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think calling Rebekha Sharkie, a member of the lower house, gutless and saying you can't trust them is unparliamentary. She's not here to defend herself. I think that should not be allowed, and I think the senator should withdraw her remarks.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Hanson. I have been listening very carefully, and Senator Hanson-Young has not said anything that's unparliamentary. But it's a good occasion to remind everyone in this debate to be respectful. Thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>South Australians who are concerned about the impact that the expansion of the cashless welfare card will have on communities—not just in Ceduna but around the country—will be disgusted tonight to find out that the member for Mayo and Senator Stirling Griff, Centre Alliance, have done a deal with the government at their expense. South Australians who believed that this political party would tell the truth, would stand up to the government of the day, would hold them to account have, sadly, just been let down. And this party doesn't even have the guts to come in and say what it is that it is going to do. Centre Alliance tonight have shown that they are gutless, that they're up for pathetic deals with the Morrison government and that they simply cannot be trusted.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you said that you've had a technical working group and you fixed the technical problems.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Ruston interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, you said you fixed them. What's the suite of options that will be available to someone at Balgo in Western Australia for the use of the suite of things that you've fixed now? Secondly, what's been the cost of this working group in fixing the technical problems?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The cashless debit card works at all shops that have an EFTPOS facility, both physical ones and those online. So the technological advances that have been undertaken under the working group have been around things like product-level blocking. For instance, when the product-level blocking technology is rolled out—we're currently trialling it in a number of places around in Australia, and you'll be very pleased to know that it's working particularly well—it will mean that if someone using the card went into what we would refer to as a 'mixed' merchant, being somebody who sells prohibited products as well as all the other products, they would still be able to use their card at the terminal because the terminal and the technology that exists would differentiate between a product that is allowable and a product that isn't allowable.</para>
<para>Another technological advance is tap and pay. Many people—I admit not all people, but many—have mobile phones. They'd be able to have the technology embedded into their phones so that they could tap and pay, and wouldn't actually have to carry the card. One of the most important technological advances is that you can use your cashless debit card to make purchases online. Even if you were in a remote community—obviously, one with internet reception—you could use your phone or other device to make purchases online.</para>
<para>So we will continue to work with the card, to the extent that we're able, to make the card operate in exactly the same way, with no discernible difference, as any other debit card that might be in your wallet or mine here tonight, with the exception, through the product-level blocking mechanism, that the prohibited items of alcohol and gambling products would not be able to be purchased on the card.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My second question was: what's the cost? What does it cost you to do this?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The maximum cost per person of the cashless debit card over a 12-month period is $820.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, I may not have been clear, Minister. What has it cost you to get those technical adjustments with the banks, Australia Post and whomever else were on the technical working group?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can advise that the cost has been around $3 million for the development of all technologies which relate to this. That includes working with the product-level blocking and the pilot for that, the cloud based activities and the multiple-issuer feasibility study.</para>
<para>I'd just like to reinforce something about the work on the multiple issuer that I think I mentioned in answer to a question from someone else on the other side. At the moment, Indue is the only issuer of the cashless debit card. We're seeking to have a situation where the person has the choice of who they would like to have as their issuer, so if they happen to bank with Westpac then Westpac would be the issuer of the card. But, as I advised the chamber earlier, we're already into discussions and have signed an agreement with the Traditional Credit Union in the Northern Territory. They're very keen to provide this service to their people.</para>
<para>I'd also put on the record the extraordinary amount of investment that we have received in the technological advances from organisations like the banks, some of the technology providers and also some philanthropic institutions which have put their time and money into supporting the development of this really quite state-of-the-art and advanced technology which we have been working on in this working group.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we come towards the conclusion of this farcical debate here, I think it's important to note the comments by Senator Hanson-Young, which I certainly agree with. I want to put on the record the absolute disappointment that the people of the Northern Territory have in not even hearing from the minister in terms of which organisations she has spoken to in the last few hours in order to get this amendment through and in order, obviously, to get the deal through that she has done with Centre Alliance. We heard that from Senator Lambie as well, the fact that the minister had been doing that.</para>
<para>I think it's an absolute disgrace that the people of the Northern Territory cannot get the answers from you in relation to that conversation, that deal that you've made. It's also an absolute disgrace on the part of Centre Alliance for not having the courage of their conviction, if this is what they truly believed and was the way they were always going to go, to really address this Senate and in particular to talk to the people of the Northern Territory.</para>
<para>I have thanked Senator Patrick and Senator Lambie for taking the time to visit the Northern Territory, to listen to people and to respond to them directly in what they were thinking and planning to do. Rebekha Sharkie MP in the lower house was also invited to come to the Northern Territory. She took up that offer, and at the last minute was unable to come; however, she sent her staff. Again, the people of the Northern Territory were very thankful for that.</para>
<para>They took the time—over a week—along with Senator Lambie, to talk to the Tangentyere Council, the council that is responsible for the town camps around Alice Springs, to talk to the Tangentyere women and the women's group—Rebekha Sharkie's staff were a part of that—and also then to travel. We went out to the western Macs, out to the communities. Through the representation of Rebekha Sharkie's staff, the people of the Northern Territory, in particular Central Australia, were able to express directly their absolute concerns about the cashless debit card.</para>
<para>So it is an deeply disappointing and a complete betrayal of the people of the Northern Territory by Centre Alliance. There has been no discussion, no respect in conversation, to even bring this as something that Centre Alliance was going to do. People may say, 'That's politics.' But what it really says more than anything is how desperate this government is, how desperate this government is to keep a failed policy—one that has proven no evidence that it actually works. The minister herself has stood up tonight and talked about anecdotal evidence. We can all say that. But what we expected in this Senate was a far greater depth of respect and of that evidence coming forward. Like the cowards that you are, you've scurried off and made the deals. You haven't even talked to the people of the Northern Territory, Minister. You haven't even said who you've spoken to in the last few hours in order to bring this last-minute amendment into the Senate.</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McCARTHY</name>
    <name.id>122087</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I pick up on your interjection. You are. You haven't spoken to the people of the Northern Territory in the last few hours when this amendment came forward. You haven't been sitting in here, so you don't even know what you're talking about. So I would settle down over there.</para>
<para>It is terrible. It is deeply disappointing. But I do thank Senator Rex Patrick and Senator Lambie for the dignity and the respect which you've shown to the people of the Northern Territory.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a question for the minister, but before asking it I would like to address a comment that Senator Wong made. I have a lot of respect for Senator Wong's ability, but she referred, as I understand it, to Senator McCarthy as a representative of the First Peoples. I see Senator McCarthy as a gracious, committed person, a very considered person, but I don't see her as a representative of the First Peoples. I see her as a representative of the people of the Northern Territory in the same way as I see Senator McMahon as a representative of the Northern Territory. I've dealt with both and they are both strong representatives of their people. That's the way I see them. I don't see a skin colour. I see the passion for the people that they represent.</para>
<para>Minister, is it natural for a trial to be refined as experience is gained to find more effective solutions?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>23:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank senators in the chamber for their contributions on this very important bill and acknowledge the diversity of views that have been expressed in the time that we have had through our second reading speeches today and this evening in debate on the bill.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Senator Lambie, are you seeking leave?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>24:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to withdraw amendments (1), (4) and (5) on sheet 1173, as circulated in the chamber. I will be going through with the other amendments that I have.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: The time allotted for debate on the bill has expired. In accordance with the resolution agreed earlier today, I will now put the questions on the remaining stages of the bill. I will deal with amendment (1) on sheet TK264, moved by Senator Ruston. The question is that items (3) and (4) of schedule 1 stand as printed.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [00:05]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that amendments (2) to (8) on sheet TK264 and amendments (1) and (2) on sheet TK265 circulated by the government be agreed to.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Government's circulated amendments—</inline></para>
<para>SHEET TK264</para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, page 11 (before line 3), before item 50, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">49A Section 123TC (paragraph (b) of the definition of excluded Part 3B payment nominee)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a Part 3B payment nominee who:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) is not subject to the income management regime; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) is not a program participant under Part 3D.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 74, page 17 (lines 13 to 15), omit paragraph 124PGE(1)(f), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the person has made a request under subsection (4A) to become a program participant under this section; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(fa) the Secretary has given the person a notice under subsection (5) stating that the person is a program participant under this section and the notice is in force; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(fb) one of the following applies:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the person was subject to the income management regime under section 123UCB or 123UCC on the day before the notice given by the Secretary under subsection (5) of this section came into force;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the person has previously been a program participant under subsection (2) of this section and a notice of a kind referred to in paragraph (2)(d) of this section is not in force in relation to the person;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the person has previously been a program participant under subsection (3) of this section but is no longer such a participant; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 74, page 18 (lines 6 to 8), omit paragraph 124PGE(2)(h), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the person has made a request under subsection (4A) to become a program participant under this section; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ha) the Secretary has given the person a notice under subsection (5) stating that the person is a program participant under this section and the notice is in force; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(hb) the person was subject to the income management regime under section 123UC or 123UFAA on the day before the notice given by the Secretary under subsection (5) of this section came into force; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 74, page 18 (lines 25 to 27), omit paragraph 124PGE(3)(g), substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) the person has made a request under subsection (4A) to become a program participant under this section; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ga) the Secretary has given the person a notice under subsection (5) stating that the person is a program participant under this section and the notice is in force; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(gb) the person was subject to the income management regime under section 123UCA on the day before the notice given by the Secretary under subsection (5) of this section came into force; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, item 74, page 18 (after line 36), after subsection 124PGE(4), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Person's request</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4A) A person may make a request to the Secretary to become a program participant under this section.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4B) A request under subsection (4A) cannot be withdrawn or revoked.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, item 74, page 19 (line 3), omit "subsection (1), (2) or (3)", substitute "this section".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) Schedule 1, item 74, page 19 (after line 10), at the end of section 124PGE, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Continuity of requests and notices</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(8) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) a person makes a request under subsection (4A); or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Secretary gives a person a notice under subsection (5) and has not revoked the notice;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">the continuity of the request or notice is not affected by the person ceasing to be a program participant under subsection (1), (2) or (3) for a period.</para></quote>
<para>SHEET TK265</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 16, page 5 (lines 16 and 17), omit the item, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">16 Section 124PF</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the section, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124PF Sunset provision</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) This Part ceases to have effect at the end of 31 December 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Despite subsection (1), at any time before 1 July 2023, the Minister may, by legislative instrument, make rules prescribing matters of a transitional nature (including prescribing any saving or application provisions) relating to that cessation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) The rules must not provide for the crediting of amounts to welfare restricted bank accounts after 31 December 2022.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) For a person who was a program participant under section 124PGE immediately before that cessation, the rules may make provision for and in relation to that person becoming subject to the income management regime under Part 3B on and after 1 January 2023.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) To avoid doubt, the rules may not do the following:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) create an offence or civil penalty;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) provide powers of:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) arrest or detention; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) entry, search or seizure;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) impose a tax;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) set an amount to be appropriated from the Consolidated Revenue Fund under an appropriation in this Act;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) directly amend the text of this Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 52, page 12 (line 25), at the end of subsection 123UP(4), add "and before 1 January 2023".</para></quote>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [00:09]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>35</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>32</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will now deal with the amendment circulated by Senator Patrick. The question now is that amendments (1) to (6) on sheet 1171 circulated by Senator Patrick be agreed to.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Senator Patrick's circulated amendments—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, page 19 (after line 26), after item 79, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">79A Subsection 124PHB(2)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the subsection, substitute:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Form of application</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The application must:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) be made in writing using a form approved by the Secretary; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) be accompanied by the documents and other information required by the form.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">79B After subsection 124PHB(3)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3A) If:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the person has a disability or the person provides care to one or more other persons (other than as a parent); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the Secretary is satisfied that, because of that disability or the provision of that care, the person is unable to demonstrate reasonable and responsible management of the person's affairs (including financial affairs), taking into account all of the matters referred to in paragraph (3)(a); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the Secretary is satisfied that the person has reasonable and responsible management of the person's affairs (including financial affairs), taking into account all of those matters;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">then paragraph (3)(a) is taken to have been met in relation to the person.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">79C After subsection 124PHB(4)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4A) If the Secretary has not made a decision on a person's application at the end of the period of 60 days beginning on the day after subsection (2) is satisfied in relation to the application, then the Secretary is taken to have made a determination under subsection (3) that the person is not a program participant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">79D Subsection 124PHB(8)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">After "subsection (3)", insert "(including because of the operation of subsection (4A))".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 87, page 22 (line 11), omit "notifiable instrument", substitute "legislative instrument".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 87, page 22 (line 20), omit "notifiable instrument", substitute "legislative instrument".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, page 23 (after line 13), after item 92, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">92A Paragraph 124PJ(4)(a)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Repeal the paragraph, substitute</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Secretary is satisfied that the person is unable to use the person's debit card that was issued to the person and that is attached to the person's welfare restricted bank account, or is unable to access that account, as a direct result of:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) a technological fault or malfunction with that card or account; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) a power or communications outage; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) a natural disaster; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) if a national emergency declaration (within the meaning of the <inline font-style="italic">National Emergency Declaration Act 2020</inline>) is in force—an emergency to which the declaration relates; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, page 23 (before line 14), before item 93, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">92B At the end of Subdivision B of Division 3 of Part 3D</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">124PMA Transfer of funds from welfare restricted bank account</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(1) For a person who is a program participant or voluntary participant, the Secretary may make a determination that the person is permitted to transfer a specified amount from the person's welfare restricted bank account to another bank account.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) The Secretary may make a determination under subsection (1) only if the Secretary is satisfied that the person is unable to use the person's debit card that was issued to the person and that is attached to the person's welfare restricted bank account as a direct result of a matter covered by paragraph 124PJ(4)(a).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) A determination under subsection (1) is not a legislative instrument.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, page 30 (after line 31), after item 98, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">98A Application provision—exiting cashless welfare arrangements</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The repeal and substitution of subsection 124PHB(2) of the <inline font-style="italic">Social Security (Administration) Act 1999</inline> made by this Part, and subsections 124PHB(3A) and (4A) of that Act as inserted by this Part, apply in relation to applications made on or after the commencement of this item.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Ruston</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Could I clarify whether you said amendments (1) to (6) or (1) and (6)?</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: One to six. Senator Patrick?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Patrick</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Can I ask that they be put as per the running sheet, because there are people that will vote differently in respect of each of these divisions, as I understand it.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: Yes. So the question is that amendments (1) and (6) on sheet 1171 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para class="italic">The CHAIR: The question now is that amendments (2) and (3) on sheet 1171 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendments (4) and (5) on sheet 1171 be agreed to.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [00:14]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>34</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I will now deal with the amendments circulated by the Jackie Lambie Network. The question is that items (1), (2), (6) to (15), (17) to (49) and parts 2 and 3 of schedule 1 stand as printed.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">Jackie Lambie Network's circulated amendments—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, items 1 to 4, page 3 (lines 4 to 19), TO BE OPPOSED.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, items 6 to 15, page 3 (line 22) to page 5 (line 15), TO BE OPPOSED.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(6) Schedule 1, items 17 to 49, page 5 (line 18) to page 10 (line 28), TO BE OPPOSED.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(7) Schedule 1, Parts 2 and 3, page 11 (line 1) to page 35 (line 10), TO BE OPPOSED.</para></quote>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [00:19]<br />(The Chair—Senator Lines)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>34</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill, as amended, agreed to.<br />Bill reported with amendments; report adopted.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>164</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the remaining stages of this bill be agreed to and the bill be now passed.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [00:23]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>34</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Bragg, AJ</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McLachlan, A</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>Molan, AJ</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Small, B</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>33</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Thorpe, LA</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>00:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to order, the Senate stands adjourned until 9.30 am today.</para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 00 : 25 (Friday)</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>