
<hansard version="2.2" noNamespaceSchemaLocation="../../hansard.xsd">
  <session.header>
    <date>2019-09-12</date>
    <parliament.no>46</parliament.no>
    <session.no>1</session.no>
    <period.no>1</period.no>
    <chamber>Senate</chamber>
    <page.no>0</page.no>
    <proof>1</proof>
  </session.header>
  <chamber.xscript>
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            <span style="font-weight:bold;"></span>
            <a type="" href="Chamber">Thursday, 12 September 2019</a>
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          <span class="HPS-Normal">
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">The PRESIDENT (Senator the Hon. </span>
            <span style="font-weight:bold;">Scott Ryan)</span> took the chair at 09:30, read prayers and made an acknowledgement of country.</span>
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          <span class="HPS-Line"> </span>
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    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>PARLIAMENTARY REPRESENTATION</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Victoria</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Senators Sworn</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tabling</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Community Affairs Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Meeting</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators that the question may be put on that proposal at the request of any senator.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>1</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>1</page.no>
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            <a type="Bill" href="r6351">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
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            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>1</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I speak in continuation of my comments from yesterday with regard to the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019. Farming is very important to the lifeblood of this nation. These morons, idiots, ratbags—you name it—are the ones who are actually going out protesting and trespassing, and they think they're doing a wonderful job in trying to help the animals, but, as I expressed here in my speech before, they are actually killing animals. They are actually seeing the death of animals, as I have explained.</para>
<para>Farming is a life of dedication, effort and hardship. As we know, it is a struggle for farmers to make good profits year in and year out. A relatively small number of people here in the parliament would have a deep understanding of rural living and life on the land—a very small number. I'd like to really have an understanding of how many people, especially Greens, who are actually standing up and making comments, have ever lived on a rural property, bred livestock, understand drought and understand the connection with the livestock that you rear. Very few in this chamber have ever experienced that—very few. You need to understand the commitment and the hardships that are connected with this. You do look after your animals, but, at the end of the day, you rear animals as part of the food chain. They are there for us to eat, to consume, to sell. That's what these animals are reared for. You have your pets—you have your dogs, you have your cats, you have your birds. That's fair enough. Those farm animals are livestock, reared for the fact that they are there as part of the food chain. That is a fact. If you want to have a pet cow or a pet horse, you can have it. If you have a pet sheep, fine; that's your pet. Don't start imposing your views, your thoughts, on the businesses in the farming sector. They have businesses for their own livelihoods and income.</para>
<para>It is a bit rich for the Greens, who pushed for the so-called protection of animals at almost any cost, to try to tell these farmers what is right and wrong when they have never walked a mile in their boots. The consequences of this vegan terrorism, by a group that is otherwise seemingly not making any true contribution to society, can be financially damaging, harmful to livestock and, in cases, has created great fear among family members. Thank God that there has been no loss of life at any time as a result of these illegal actions.</para>
<para>I'd like to reiterate something Senator Roberts said earlier today. Our farmers are valuable, not only to their local communities but also to their state, to Australia and to the global market. This bill provides an added protection to help them get on with the challenging job of growing food to help meet the growing demands of our population. Larissa Waters from the Greens calls them heroes. These people are breaking the law. Are the heroes the protesters on the streets of Brisbane who glue themselves to the roads and can't be removed? Those people are disrupting the lives of people getting to work. Protests happen at the ballot box or protests can happen in areas of parks that don't disrupt ordinary Australians trying to get on with their lives. They are not heroes. To actually call them heroes is disgraceful. The true heroes are the people who fought for this nation in battle to give us freedom and what we have today. I think it's absolutely disgusting that Senator Waters calls them heroes. They're not in my eyes and those of many Australians.</para>
<para>We have laws in this country. I hear the complaints about the sentences that are given to them. They are breaking the law. They say the sentence given to someone who commits a crime against an animal is up to two years. These are people who are going out purely to incite violence and to trespass on other people's property. They are putting out maps of where they live. What about the Privacy Act? It is pure terrorism to incite violence. That is worse than doing cruelty. I'm not saying it is worse—I retract that; it is not worse than cruelty to any animal. No animal deserves cruelty by anyone, but the fact is that I totally disagree with saying that these sentences are too strenuous. They meet the circumstances.</para>
<para>We are here debating this on the floor of parliament—we are changing this legislation—because the courts have not dealt with it with strong enough sentences. The lenient judges are too gutless to hand down decent fines or imprisonment to stop this from happening and to stop the impact it's having on our farming families and those who are trying to do right. As I've said, businesses have shut down and jobs have been lost, and if that deserves this sort of action by the parliament and responsible government then so be it. But don't dare stand up and call them heroes in this parliament, because I will not accept that and neither will other Australians. I will be fully supporting this bill and I thank the government for bringing this forward. At least someone's trying to do something about it. These protesters have to realise that they can't just go out there and shut down businesses and destroy people's lives at their own whim because it doesn't suit them that animals are used in the food chain. That's what it's all about at the end of the day.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McMAHON</name>
    <name.id>282728</name.id>
    <electorate>Northern Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is not my first speech. Imagine, if you will, that you're a farmer, grazier or primary producer. You live on your property with your family and are assisted by a couple of people from the local town. You are running a beef herd. It's been in your family for three generations and you work very hard to maintain the health, welfare, production and genetics of your herd. You're progressive. You have regular veterinary visits. In fact, you were one of the first in the district to sign up for the Australian Cattle Veterinarians welfare check and biocheck programs, as you know the value of your herd. You maintain strict biosecurity on the property. Visitors come to the house only and clean and disinfect before accessing any animal areas.</para>
<para>Imagine you wake up early one morning and there's a commotion outside. You hear the cattle making a lot of noise and some clanging of gates. You rush outside to find a group of over 500 people, some wearing disguises and costumes, storming all over your paddocks, causing the cattle to flee and crash into and through gates and fences. Some of these people are menacing your house. Some appear to have weapons in their hands. You're torn between defending your home and family and defending your cattle. You see some of the mob grab some calves and start making off with them. These are your embryo transfer calves worth tens of thousands of dollars, and they also represent the future of your herd. Some of the invaders are yelling that they have material infected with foot-and-mouth disease and are going to spread it on your property. This will wipe out your entire herd or your neighbours', or the whole district. It is estimated this would cost Australia $50 billion. The police or any responders are at least half an hour away. Imagine what could happen in half an hour. There are vulnerable family and workers on the property. They are terrified. This is not only your business but your home.</para>
<para>And all for what? You've done nothing wrong. You care immensely for your animals. You've broken no laws. You operate on best practice and exceed industry standards. Why you? Because you were randomly selected from a map, by some hairy, smelly greenie in Sydney, who then incited a mob to target you for the purpose of making a political statement. Is this fair or right? No, it isn't. The invaders themselves are bad enough, and they will, hopefully, face the judicial system and, hopefully, receive more than a $1 fine. But what about the inner-city greenie who targeted you and incited and organised the mob? Shouldn't they face judgement and receive a punitive sentence of at least as much as, if not more than, the invaders themselves? After all, without this person the invasion would never have happened.</para>
<para>In my home of the Northern Territory, properties are very isolated. It can be more than six hours to the nearest police assistance and several hours to any neighbours at all. Most properties are owned or managed by a family, with small numbers of onsite workers. People are very genuinely concerned by the thought of what could happen if activists invaded and are very worried about the outcome should they be pushed to the point of retaliation. These are terrifying scenarios and by no means wild fantasies. Similar scenes have happened and are currently being threatened against farmers around the country. Livestock are being terrified, stampeded, placed in dangerous situations, maimed, killed and stolen in these invasions. I personally heard from a pig farmer recently about how an activist invasion onto a farm had resulted in miscarriages due to stress, and the death of piglets. Deliberate damage to infrastructure had allowed piglets to escape and drown in sewage ponds. This is what the Greens want to see happen: baby pigs drowning in effluent.</para>
<para>It's not just the welfare issues for people and animals; there are real biosecurity considerations, for both endemic and emergency diseases. African swine fever, foot-and-mouth disease and West Nile virus are just some of the diseases that could be brought into the country and unleashed on a farm, with devastating consequences for Australia. Most farms have strict biosecurity protocols, and many are specific pathogen free. Everything is cleaned and disinfected, and there are barriers to potential pests such as rats and mice. Invaders do not understand or observe these protocols, leading to very real risks, not just to the farm but to the industry and to Australia.</para>
<para>This legislation provides a great deterrent to people wanting to carry out these activities by organising and inciting others. It also seeks to ensure that those responsible are able to be held to account and face the judiciary. I fully support this bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to make some brief remarks today on the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019. Labor understands the important contribution that agriculture makes to our overall economy. The tireless efforts of our hardworking men and women of the land have always been and will always be a key part of our prosperity as a nation.</para>
<para>In my brief time in this place, I've had the pleasure of speaking with many farmers in my home state of Victoria about the challenges that they face in making a living off the land, whether it be labour issues or even the devastating effect that the drought is having. For some being a farmer in Australia isn't an easy life. As a parliament, we have an obligation to support them and not to allow others to incite violence. The aim of this bill, to protect Australian farmers from those who incite destructive farm invasions on their land, is certainly a worthy cause. Our farmers and their families shouldn't have to live in fear of someone showing up at the farm gate in the middle of the night. I think the contributions by Senator McMahon and others throughout this debate should certainly be taken note of by those who are opposing this bill. This kind of activism has no place in our proud farming nation.</para>
<para>But it is also clear that this bill does very little in actually addressing some of the destructive invasions on agricultural land. It's because laws against such invasions on land, agricultural or otherwise, already exist in other statutes, whether it be in state, territory or other Commonwealth legislation. As the Senate committee which considered this bill heard from the government's own departments, every state and territory of Australia already has provisions to deal with trespass. Even in my own state of Victoria, we have laws already on the books that criminalise incitement. But this bill essentially creates two new offences under Commonwealth law that relate to the carriage service—predominantly the internet—used to organise or encourage others to trespass on farming land.</para>
<para>Labor is firm in its support of our primary producers and believes that they have a right to operate their businesses in peace and without fear of extreme animal activists disrupting their operations. But we know, given the haste with which this bill has been put together, that it is riddled with oversights and some inconsistencies. The bill fails to incorporate certain farming activity and agricultural science facilities within its scope, because it relates only to private agricultural land. What consideration is there for those who make a living catching fish in public waters? What consideration is there for agricultural science facilities on public land? Put simply, there is none. There is undoubtedly a need for us in this place to send a strong message to those who think it is okay to illegally trespass on someone's land. My concern, however, is whether this bill, as put by the government, can actually achieve this outcome.</para>
<para>Evidence given to the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee demonstrated that animal activists are undeterred by the provisions, with one stating, 'Ultimately I don't think it's going to change what we do.' These issues are the symptoms of a bill that has been put together very quickly.</para>
<para>I also would like to see further cooperation and consideration of amendments that we'll put later today. Representatives of the Attorney-General's Department admitted themselves that there was no exposure draft released by the government for public consultation or formal engagement with affected parties. Wideranging consultation with the community only serves to improve the laws that we make here, and I believe this ought to take place.</para>
<para>With Victoria home to over 60 per cent of our nation's dairy herd and a quarter of Australia's total agricultural output, I firmly support the worthy cause and aim of this bill, but we must do more to protect our farming community from those who seek to do harm. I foreshadow that I will move a second reading amendment circulating in my name, on sheet 8754, calling on the government to carefully monitor the operation of the new laws, and, if any unintended consequences arise, urgently introduce legislation and amendments in this place.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>09:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Last night I attended the AgriFutures Rural Women's Award dinner. What a terrific night. What extraordinary women. What great stories of innovation, imagination and optimism. None of these stories would ever include trespassing on someone else's property, scaring the family who live there and jeopardising the biosecurity of the animals involved. I deeply resent members of the Greens in any way comparing the peaceful protests that farmers may have engaged in, and will still be able to enjoy with this legislation in place, with the terrifying, offensive and militant invasions that have taken place in Queensland.</para>
<para>The Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019 seeks to stop the sort of activism we have seen recently in Queensland. The lead proponent posted to Facebook videos where she laughed at the paltry fines awarded by the magistrate—no conviction was recorded—who called the farms and the families that had been terrorised victims. She gave a shout-out to her crew for the next invasion. Queenslanders and Australians have begged this government to provide greater security for them and greater penalties for those activists who provided distress and alarm to people who woke up that morning with no idea of how their lives were about to be changed for the worse.</para>
<para>We in parliament have a simple choice to make in these sitting weeks: to give into anarchists or to stand up strongly for what's right. What's right is to protect the law-abiding citizens from those who see the law not as a rigid framework for a civil society but as a low bar that they can simply step over to achieve their aims. It doesn't help that we hear inflammatory language from one of the country's senior unionists, encouraging anyone to break laws they don't agree with. We even have senators from the Greens refusing to denounce what can only be described as anti-Australian behaviour.</para>
<para>Aussie Farms head Chris Delforce's claim that tougher laws won't deter him from his campaign against farmers provides one positive—that is, we now have no doubt about the aims of those who would invade family homes, intimidate legitimate businesses and disrupt, with these illegal protests, everyday Australians getting to work and hospitals. They are simply picking a cause du jour as a vehicle for more sinister aims, sparking rebellion against what they see as an outdated and unfair system so that they can impose their own worldview.</para>
<para>To be clear: while these invasions are a fun outing for some, it is not for those living in fear of when the next invasion will come. In March, now-senators Gerard Rennick, Paul Scarr and I visited Lemontree Feedlot to see my friends the McNamees soon after their terrifying and distressing invasion by masked and uniformed invaders. David begged the invaders to leave his land and stay away from his frightened animals. The scars of that day may never heal.</para>
<para>I've been to the abattoir at Yangan and the butcher shop at Taringa, who were also victims of this illegal activism. To these people the invasion was as distressing as you can imagine, and the loss of security and the sense of safety in their own home or workplace is unacceptable. I've seen farmers reduced to tears at the prospect of hordes of trespassers flooding their farms. I've heard 14-year-old schoolgirls say that they've decided not to have children because they've been told by these extremists that it would be cruel to bring children into a dead planet. Only the most morally bankrupt would see scaring children and robbing them of their future as a way to win an argument. Practical members of society scoff at such outlandish behaviour and get on with their day, but ignoring the anarchists amongst us has actually emboldened them.</para>
<para>My colleague in the Senate Paul Scarr has spoken publicly about Saul Alinsky, who published a book in 1971 called <inline font-style="italic">Rules for Radicals</inline>. Alinsky's advice was: 'Pick the target, freeze it, personalise it and polarise it.' It wasn't just seized upon by 1970s hippies, communists and Marxists in the West; we see it happening today in the tactics of Aussie Farms, Extinction Rebellion, anti-Australia Day activists and climate change alarmists. Aided by the internet and soft laws, these people have ridden roughshod over Australians' sense of decency and fairness.</para>
<para>Another of Alinsky's rules is: 'Ridicule is man's most potent weapon.' From this we get terms such as 'denier', 'racist' and words ending in 'phobe'. If you have an opinion that diverges from the cultists, they don't just want to disagree with you; they want to destroy you, your family and your livelihood. Alinsky used inflammatory words such as 'enemy', 'attack' and 'threat' in his treatise, so it is no wonder that activists view their aims not simply as a struggle but as a war. Their greatest weapon in this war is the internet, and the use of it to incite others to carry out protests, legal and illegal, is why we need new laws.</para>
<para>This bill introduces new offences for the incitement of trespass, property damage—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On a point of order, Madam Acting Deputy President: I can hardly hear the contribution from Senator McDonald for the carry-on at the end of the chamber by members of the Greens party.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I call the chamber to order and ask senators to give us the opportunity to listen to the senator who is speaking now.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The bill introduces new offences for the incitement of trespass, property damage or theft on agricultural land. As has been made abundantly clear, these laws don't ban legitimate protest, they don't seek to punish legitimate whistleblowers and they don't prevent legitimate journalistic inquiry. But the key word here is 'legitimate'. Repeated, organised incidents of trespass by animal activists and their concerning lack of remorse is what has prompted this stronger action to deter those who incite this behaviour, especially via the internet.</para>
<para>We have a chance here to stand up to the bullies. We have a chance to be on the side of what is good and what is right. We have a chance, and we actually have a duty, to stand up for those who can't speak up for themselves and for those who've shown admirable restraint while waiting for government to provide new tools to the police and magistrates. Everyone has a right to feel safe in their home. Everyone has a right to conduct legitimate business. This country was built on farming—strong people developing a fertile land to grow the food and fibre the world wants and needs. But, during a time of repeated antifarming legislation from state Labor governments and this time of dry, it has never been more important that we stand behind our Australian farmers and say, 'We need you,' because we do.</para>
<para>The difference between the determination of farmers and the churlishness of activists is that farmers are driven by love and the others by hate. Farmers love their lifestyle and love feeding and clothing families around the world. They are the best in the world at what they do. It is truly a noble profession performed by extraordinary people. And if you attack farmers you attack the very fibre of Australia, and that is unacceptable. Common decency and the majority of fair-minded Australians are counting on us to pass these laws, and I commend them to the House.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, there's a bit of a Friday feeling about this debate on the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019, I would have to observe. There's a certain—what shall I say?—level of comedy about this whole piece. We've had some really fantastic contributions, and I would encourage members from the National Party, the Liberal Party and the Labor Party to go on the stand-up circuit after some of these contributions. I mean, you won't last long. They were pretty bad, but you did try to make us laugh and make us smile. I do appreciate this. If you drill down to the substance of this bill, again, you find a certain element of comedy. These are laws to further criminalise acts which are already criminal. These laws are so wholly unnecessary as to be described thus by the Law Council of Australia—this was my favourite bit:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the case has yet to be made that these new offences are necessary and … further justification is required from the Australian Government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">… … …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">There is no evidence that the existing laws are incapable of addressing the concerns that motivate the passage of the Bill …</para></quote>
<para>No evidence! That's pretty clear. I know lawyers; they're not often up for speaking plainly, but that's pretty plain, although not surprising, because the absence of evidence has never stopped the National Party putting a proposal forward, and I doubt it ever will.</para>
<para>It's a really great time we find ourselves in! One side of this house is the dog that caught the car and never expected to, the other side of the chamber is the dog that was then reversed over by the car, and in the middle of it all we just have this vacuum that's getting filled with legislative nonsense. I mean, this is a thought-bubble that occurred to the National Party in the run-up to the election. They know it's not serious. They know it's not an actual problem that they're addressing. They know they're speaking primarily to the gut based 'feelpinions' of a couple of rural commentators and a couple of folks on 2GB, who I'm sure slipped them the lines about vegan terrorists and smelly greenies, which I thought was a terrible attack upon my colleague, Senator McKim! Why you would single him out in that way, I have no idea. This stuff really is a joke, but so much of what comes forth from this government is a joke, although it's tempered by the verbal anaesthetic that comes in every time certain members of the Liberal Party stand up here and give those terribly preprepared speeches that just make you want to vomit, go home and do something far more interesting.</para>
<para>I think there is a serious point to be made here, though, and it's that we do have serious issues in our agricultural industry. There is no doubt that farmers across the country are facing profound challenges when it comes to their ability and right to protect their property and do their work. However, as Senator Faruqi rightly observed in her contribution to this debate, the challenges that farmers face are not from so-called vegan terrorists, they are far more often from folks engaging in illegal hunting and shooting activity upon their property.</para>
<para>I have been here about two years now—it sometimes feels like a lifetime—and it's very interesting to watch that yellow section of the chamber and what really fires them up. I remember the contributions made by Senator McKenzie in relation to fake meat. That really got the goat going. It's really fascinating that on this issue the National Party are full of a soul-deep conviction to defend the right, as they see it, of farmers to do what they like on their agricultural land, to have their rights respected and to have their ability to make a livelihood out of their land respected. Yet when the antagonist is switched from the so-called strong-smelling vegan ecoterrorist to the clean-cut advocate of the coal seam gas and fracturing industry then suddenly silence descends or, if not silence, passion!</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Passion for the right of corporate Australia to come onto the land of farmers in New South Wales, of farmers in Queensland, of farmers in the mid-west and in the Kimberley—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Steele-John. Minister?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Steele-John is misrepresenting the National Party's policy on coal seam gas development on agriculture land. I refer him to our policy documents. I'd be very happy to send them to him so he can avail himself of the facts rather than engage, once again, in emotional rhetoric.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order: firstly, it's not a point of order, and, secondly, Senator McKenzie is a loyal servant of the coal seam gas industry and does over farmers at every opportunity when it comes to balancing the rights of farmers to deny access to their land and the rights of her beloved frackers.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McKim. Minister, there is no point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The National Party have never seen a buck from the coal seam gas industry that they haven't been willing to take. I think it's absolutely hilarious that they come in here protesting their belief that farmers should be protected from something which they contend threatens them, when you've got a situation where farmers are desperately defending their right to protect their ability to make a living from their land, to protect the nature of their land and to protect the very water that you proud RM Williams-wearing, Akubra-sporting country folk should all know is the very wellspring of agriculture.</para>
<para>This protest is so insightful. It reveals to the chamber the pantomime that the modern National Party has turned itself into. You guys and I would never have seen eye to eye on all things, but there was a time when the National Party stood for something more than the continuation of its own existence at any cost. We've just farewelled somebody who used to lead you guys who did have a moral core. Tim Fischer did have a bit of backbone. I'm somebody who sits here as a member of a generation of people who don't know anything like the terror of a mass shooting because of the moral conviction of a person like that. To see you guys degenerate from that position to where you are now is just embarrassing, folks. Is there anything you won't do? Is there any way in which you won't shaft farmers to maintain your position at the cabinet table? Good God! It's a bit of an embarrassment and kind of why you're dying out in so many places. But, anyway, I'll leave that analysis to you guys.</para>
<para>On this legislation, here is—</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You know, I seek to entertain—to bring some energy to the debate.</para>
<para>Government senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator STEELE-JOHN</name>
    <name.id>250156</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Oh, no; I compete in the arena of stand-up comedy—ba-boom, boom, tish! On the legislation, very seriously, what we have in Australia right now is the creation of a context around the agricultural industry where we have seen, over and over again, the industry fail to meet community expectations when it comes to its treatments of animals in its care during the agricultural process. We have all seen the videos. We have all watched the exposes. At each step we have seen clearly, again and again, that the industry is failing to meet those expectations. It is in that context and that atmosphere of distrust that these actions—which I remind the chamber once again are already illegal and for which folks are already prosecuted—have been undertaken. I would, therefore, put to the chamber that a context created by a lack of transparency and by distrust ain't solved by 'ag-gag' legislation! If you want to restore the equilibrium, it's time for an independent office of animal welfare.</para>
<para>As Senator Carr so clearly pointed out to the chamber yesterday, there are many instances in which there is a critical role, unfortunately, for certain types of animal activism when it comes to revealing the illegal work of metropolitan based meatworks that place the entire health of the Australian community, or subsections of that community, at risk. To deal with those legitimate issues requires transparency, not more secrecy. It certainly doesn't require a piece of legislation, which, I again point out to the chamber, legal experts have attested there is no actual need for. This is a stunt by the National Party, and I fear it's a stunt given in aid of the government to fill the gaping hole where a legislative agenda should be. Christ, you guys won the election and it's been a couple of months now, and what have we seen? You got tax cuts through. You really have spun the tyres on this one.</para>
<para>What will come after the Labor Party eventually vote for this piece of legislation? What ridiculous thought-bubble will you drum up next once you finish drug-testing welfare recipients, despite there being no evidence, or moving us all on to a CDC cut? It is a bit embarrassing, but, then, the National Party and the Liberal Party have never been above embarrassing themselves or the nation as a whole. That's kind of your new slogan, I would argue.</para>
<para>This bill is unnecessary. This bill has no place in the Australian legislative framework. This bill duplicates state based animal protection regimes. It seeks to impose upon activists penalties that exceed the penalties which are to be faced by those who abuse animals in the most horrendous ways. The top limit, which my colleague Senator Faruqi pointed out to the chamber last night, is somewhere in the region of three years, yet this bill proposes five-year potential jail terms. If you guys can't see that as a bit of a mismatch, a bit of a canary down the gas field coalmine, then I don't know what would signal that there's a problem with this legislation. If you really want to deal with this issue, get beyond the stunt. We need to be led by experts in this space. We need to do right by animals and by farmers and create an agricultural system that works for the community and for animals and is fair, transparent and open.</para>
<para>Quite honestly, there are so many people out there who just want to work the land, who just want to get on with things, and want to be able to say to that corporation, 'Get off my land. I don't want you fracking here.' They want to be actually supported properly by government to bring their produce to market in a way which doesn't put them into destitution. We could have a very nice discussion about the impact of the commercial supermarkets' monopoly upon farmers in this country. There are so many issues that actually affect rural and regional Australia which this Senate should be taking time to debate—so many serious issues, from rural suicide to the provision of jobs for young people and the provision of social services and care. These are the things we need to be discussing in this place when it comes to rural and regional Australia, not this pantomime brought forward by a party that don't—well, I actually think they're a generation or two beyond even knowing what they were originally for. If that side is a zombie and that side is just vaguely human, you guys are like a kind of strange, pointless addendum to the main body of the Liberal Party. It's sad. Anyway, I'll let you think about that.</para>
<para>I thank the chamber for its time. I will proudly vote against this legislation, alongside my Greens colleagues, as we strive for an agricultural sector that treats animals and farmers with equal respect.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to contribute to the debate on the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019. Centre Alliance will be supporting this bill in an amended form. We very much support the idea of lawful protest and we also support whistleblowers who might call out animal cruelty. We support organisations like the RSPCA—and I was just having a look on their website—that have the power to enter properties, seize animals, seize evidence of animal cruelty offences, issue animal welfare directions and notices, issue on-the-spot fines and initiate prosecutions under animal welfare legislation. What we don't support is the conduct of activists that gave rise to this bill which we think is abhorrent and which no-one wants to see a repeat of.</para>
<para>I'll go to the amendments shortly, but first I want to discuss Labor's second reading amendment, and I hope my reading out their amendment doesn't create a procedural problem. Their amendment states:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee inquiry into this bill identified a range of potential unintended consequences that could flow from the operation of new criminal offences contained in this bill; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to carefully monitor the operation of the new laws to ensure that unintended consequences do not arise, and if they do, urgently introduce any necessary amendments to the new laws."</para></quote>
<para>So the committee has recognised—and Labor has endorsed the idea—that the bill as it was originally proposed had some fairly significant flaws in it. I see that second reading amendment as an advertisement from the Labor Party that they have lost their conviction, because we know that they are going to support the bill. They've signalled that, if the bill is amended and goes back to the House and comes back to this place, they will support the bill.</para>
<para>This is not the first time the Labor Party have done this. During the last parliament, the numbers were in this place to stop the TPP-11 enabling legislation until such time as the ISDS provisions were removed. Labor's policy was to not support trade agreements with ISDS provisions. Senators Hanson and Georgiou and Centre Alliance were willing to back that position in, and Labor capitulated. They have also capitulated twice on personal tax cuts, once in the last parliament and also in this parliament; on encryption laws, where they sought to move amendments but, at the last minute, decided not to put those amendments to the chamber; and just recently with the temporary exclusion orders. Centre Alliance shared their view that the law didn't provide enough protections and sought to amend it. But, a couple of days before the vote, Labor signalled that they had given up on it and they were just going to let that one go through. And they lodged a motion for an inquiry into China and then quickly withdrew.</para>
<para>In relation to journalists, Labor have made fairly strong statements about protecting journalists in the wake of the media raids. This bill has some concerning elements in relation to journalists. For example, as it originally was tabled, it had a provision that required the journalist to prove that they were a journalist. These things are, in my view, further restrictions on journalists and they are making journalists feel uncomfortable. The government has agreed to change that, and I'm grateful for that, but the Labor Party, having stated a very strong commitment to media freedom, were prepared to let that through. I know that the Labor Party say they're picking their battles, but actually this is not about politics; this is legislation, and you have a duty to make sure that the laws we pass in this chamber are good laws. When you see a bad law coming through, you have to stand up and say, 'Stop, we need to rethink that.'</para>
<para>We are not the House of Representatives. Over there, when the bells ring everyone knows what the vote's going to be. So, they play a lot of theatre over there. Of course, we know that the real work is done in this place, where the amendments are looked at, where we do all the committee work. I've got everyone shaking their heads—all the senators around the room agreeing with this principle. We do all the work here. So, you've got to get away from this idea that you're playing theatre in here. If you want to do that, switch and go to the lower house, to the other place. This is where we do very serious work, and we must take that role very seriously.</para>
<para>To help the Labor Party—because we do want to work with the Labor Party—I'm just going to give them this hint. Legislation in this place is a team sport. The Liberal-National coalition have worked this out. When legislation comes to this place they talk to the crossbench, they engage us, they talk to us in confidence and frankly, and we have a bit of argy-bargy. They are in regular contact with us, and they manage to work with the crossbench to get legislation through. If they're having any trouble, then of course they call in the 'crossbench whisperer'—that is, Senator Cormann—and he does his magic somehow.</para>
<para>That's not what the Labor Party are doing. What the Labor Party are doing is spinning around and around in circles. They go to caucus meetings where they make a whole bunch of decisions, drowning in their own disillusionment. The biggest decision they make, it appears, is about the point at which they're going to capitulate, at which they're going to show that they have no conviction. Probably what they need to do most of all is learn what a poker face is—learn that you don't, two or three days out from a bill being put to the Senate, declare your hand. If you're working with the crossbench—and I'd love to see you work with us better—we can work together, we can hold out, we can do all those things that the Liberal Party have worked out how to do to work with the crossbench, to get better outcomes. That's really what I'd like to see.</para>
<para>I've said some perhaps confronting things here, but I'm doing so with a view that I want to be able to work with Labor, because there are times when we don't like what the government puts up. In this instance, what we have done—because of the state of play on this side of the chamber—is work with the government, constructively. We've had a bit of argy-bargy going to and from Senator McKenzie's office. Her office has been very open and willing to consider different things, and we've managed to get a couple of things that were of great concern to us included as government amendments. They include adding wood processing and wood fibre processing to the definition of a primary production business so that these businesses will be protected from abhorrent conduct. And something close to my heart: we've switched the burden of proof in relation to journalists, and I think that's a really important thing to do—recognising the important role that investigative journalists play in assisting people who don't like animal cruelty, which is most of us. Having investigative journalists go in and engage and report and provide the truth is a good thing.</para>
<para>There are a couple of other subtleties, which I won't go into. But we've landed in a good place, and I thank the minister for the constructive negotiations we have had. As I said, Centre Alliance will be supporting the bill in its amended form.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I only want to speak briefly on the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019. I also want to acknowledge the contribution that Senator Patrick has just made, which was a constructive contribution to what is a very important piece of legislation. It's pleasing to hear from members of the crossbench who are willing to work with the government on things that are important to our nation and getting the balance right on many things, which is what this chamber is very good at doing.</para>
<para>The same can't be said, though, for the speaker who proceeded Senator Patrick. Senator Steele-John made a reference to members of this place—senators and political parties—shafting farmers, and the allegation or the allusion was that it was the Liberal-National coalition that was shafting farmers. Nothing could be further from the truth. It's not this side who are shafting farmers. We stand up for farmers. That's why we've brought this bill in. I commend the Minister for Agriculture for being so responsive to industry concerns and dealing with the things that she has dealt with in this bill.</para>
<para>It's not, I hope, the Labor Party who shaft farmers; it's the Greens who do that. It's the Greens who are speaking out against this piece of legislation claiming that it doesn't need to be brought in, that we don't need these protections and that we don't need to clamp down on this terrible behaviour we've seen time and time again. They're the party that shaft farmers, they're the party that shafts foresters and they're the party that shafts fishermen and women. They're the party that shaft regional Australia. They're the party that do not care about jobs in our regional communities. It's time they were called out for that sort of thing. They're not standing up for balance and they're not standing up to protect people. They are doing what they normally do: creating emotive arguments and costing people jobs on the way through.</para>
<para>I believe, as do all of the members on this side of the chamber and I gather many others in this place, that protecting jobs in our primary industries is essential. Regional communities are built off the back of strong primary industries in forestry, in fisheries and in farming. I think that the inclusion of wood processing and wood-fibre processing facilities within the definition of primary production businesses is a very good addition.</para>
<para>In my home state of Tasmania, we only have to have a little look at recent history and the impact that protesters have had on the forestry industry there, to the point where they were able to shut down a huge portion of our native forestry sector in our state, costing thousands of jobs—something that certain members of the Greens wear as a badge of honour. They don't go out and speak to the people whose jobs they've cost, they don't go and talk to the wives and the husbands of those who've lost their jobs or the kids whose parents no longer have employment and they don't drive through the streets of the towns that have been shut down as a result—and they take no responsibility for any of it. It's unsafe to go and shut down these serious primary industry operations. As I said before, it costs jobs.</para>
<para>I want to focus on forestry. It is a proud industry. It's an industry that should be proud of the standard at which it operates. We are better than most other forestry nations around the world. We operate at a world standard. Those people who work in the industry and those who invest in it should be proud. We should ignore the messages that we get from the Australian Greens trying to denigrate that industry. That's why it's important that this bill protects the right for those who want to work and those who want to invest in forestry as well as other primary industries to be able to do what they do without fear of being persecuted and having protests take place in their places of work by people supported by the Australian Greens.</para>
<para>I do acknowledge, though, that in the consultation process, particularly through the work of the committee that inquired into this piece of legislation, a number of concerns were raised, particularly from the forestry industry. Having spoken with the Minister for Agriculture, I look forward to working with the forestry industry, in particular, on the further concerns that they raise and seeing what can be done into the future to make sure that industry continues to be strong, proud of what it does and continues to provide the jobs that are so badly needed in regional communities—jobs that that lot over there, the Australian Greens, want to get rid of. I commend this bill to anyone listening.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to thank all senators for their contributions to the debate on the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019. This bill, which incorporates government amendments, is a firm but necessary response to recent incidents targeting Australian farmers, their families, their workers and their businesses. These incidents were enabled and encouraged by the sharing of information online and by inciting people to harass and intimidate law-abiding Australians.</para>
<para>Respectfully, senators in this place who have failed to call out illegal, dangerous actions and have, in fact, stood up and championed those actions indicate their flagrant disregard for the law and that they actually don't care at all about a productive agricultural sector and a productive fishing and forestry sector, which actually don't just underpin local economies in regional Australia, as we've said, but also underpin our national economy. Such is the disconnect in this country between the urban and rural experience now that particularly those who sit in the Greens political party, all elected from inner-city, urban votes, are championing the harassment of workers and the illegal actions of heading onto somebody's property and destroying property. You've heard through the debate here in the chamber over the last couple of days that there are biosecurity risks, ensuring that animal welfare outcomes are worse. Animals have been killed and maimed as a result of these protesters' behaviour, not to mention the human cost of those actions, being the mental damage done to families and workers, and indeed the economic damage, with businesses being closed down because of the ongoing harassment by people who think their views of how the world should run are more important and should be prioritised over the views of other Australians—specifically, those who farm livestock in this country.</para>
<para>The government know, understand and appreciate the hard work of our farmers, our fishers and our foresters, and we stand with them to say that that is not an Australia that we want to be a part of. We want to make sure that families can go about their business of raising livestock and keeping high animal welfare standards, and we will ensure that people who seek to damage that will feel the full force of the law.</para>
<para>Farmers are a critical part of both our community and our economy and they should not be subject to illegal invasion of their property. They deserve to feel safe in their homes and at work. They deserve not to have their businesses and livelihoods harmed by potential food contamination and biosecurity breaches caused by trespassers. These things are not fantasy. These are actual incidences that have occurred as a result of animal activists thinking it's okay to march, in their hundreds, onto somebody's property and destroy it and harass workers. It's just unconscionable that senators who've come into this place in the national interest think it's okay for Australians to treat other Australians in that way. We all have a right to peaceful protest; we do not have a right to destroy peoples' livelihoods or their mental and economic health.</para>
<para>The bill will introduce an offence for the use of a carriage service with the intention to incite trespass on agricultural land. It also creates a new offence for the incitement of damage, destruction or theft of property on agricultural land. The bill contains appropriate exemptions for journalists and whistleblowers. The new offences will not apply to news reports from journalists in their professional capacity and in the public interest. The new offences will also not apply to those who utilise lawful channels to raise concerns about animal cruelty and other criminal activity where it exists in the agricultural industry. We don't want to see negative animal welfare outcomes at all. Anyone who says we do is bald-faced lying—lying to the Senate and lying to the Australian people. That is why the bill has been constructed in the way that it has. If there are legitimate animal welfare concerns then let's report that to the appropriate authority to deal with it. But that does not mean you have a right to incite violence and harassment on other Australians, their businesses and the animals that they actually care for.</para>
<para>The new offences in the bill are not directed at people who simply wish to engage in public discussion or debate about agricultural practices or legislation. Rather, the bill targets the conduct of those who go well beyond that, those who have an intention to incite others to commit unlawful trespass or other offences in the homes and on the lands of our farmers.</para>
<para>The bill has had the benefit of scrutiny by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights, the Senate Scrutiny of Bills Committee and the Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee. I want to thank these committees for their consideration of the bill—particularly the legal and constitutional affairs committee, who conducted a comprehensive review and inquiry process.</para>
<para>The government has responded to concerns raised by media stakeholders. These concerns were that journalists would be unintentionally impacted by the provisions within the bill. The amendments as introduced by the government will remove any doubt that journalists are excluded from these offences and provide that the evidential burden resides with the prosecution.</para>
<para>Further amendments to the bill have expanded the definition of 'primary production business' to cover facilities that process wood and wood fibre, addressing concerns raised by industry stakeholders. I do note the concerns raised by Labor Party senators around these provisions, as to their being extended to fishers in public waters—and, I would argue, also to foresters on public land. Obviously that's in the purview of the states. I look forward to continuing discussions around that end, because, at the end of the day, this is about protecting people's lawful right to go about their business and not be subject to harassment and intimidation.</para>
<para>I've been disappointed that today's debate hasn't been focused on protecting farmers and their families from militant animal activists. Classic Steele-John; classic Greens contribution! I would love to take Senator Steele-John and his colleagues on-farm to actually directly speak to those farmers who've been subjected to those activists—those militant, criminal activists—who've harassed and intimidated Australian farmers out of business. It's simply not good enough. It's not a badge of honour to walk around and say: 'Yay! I've been locked up for sticking it to the man and sticking it to Australian farmers.' You're actually a criminal. This bill will make sure that those who seek to incite Australians to go on-farm to harass, intimidate and trespass will be subject to up to five years in jail. I'm very proud to be part of a government that has instigated this.</para>
<para>As to the debate: the Greens are calling anyone who supports this bill—which is most of the Senate, bar the Greens—'fascists', when the Greens political party, and those who support it and Animals Australia and Aussie Farms and all those who engage in this militant action, think it's okay to disregard the law, harass and intimidate people and kill stock; that is somehow okay! That is actually the definition of fascism. I would say that it is not our government or those who are supporting this bill who are the fascists; it is those who seek to impose their will, their ideology and their way of life on the broader Australian public who are indeed the fascists.</para>
<para>We back the people who contribute to the wealth of our nation so that those who live in Melbourne and Sydney can enjoy their lifestyles. We work very hard out in regional Australia to make sure that that can occur. We are not ashamed of what we do and where we live. We're proud of what we do, and we want to be able to continue to do that without being subjected to harassment and intimidation.</para>
<para>I look at my Greens colleagues wearing their wool suits, their cotton shirts and their vegan leather shoes. Whose side are you actually on? Are you on the side of politics that wants to see our farmers continue to grow clean, green produce, with the highest welfare standards in the world, or are you backing those people in our community—such as Mr Delforce and the others—who, in the Victorian government's inquiry into this particular topic, were loud and proud about their end goal? Do you know what their end goal is? Their end goal is to actually end livestock production in this country. How's that going to go, if we shut down our $16 billion beef industry? What about our sheep and wool production and our poultry? What if we shut down our 2,700 pig farmers in this country—not to mention our fishers?</para>
<para>You know what? I know vegans. I like vegans. I'm yet to meet a vegan I don't like. But I do not expect them to tell me I do not have the right to enjoy a beautiful Angus porterhouse whenever I like—right?</para>
<para>That is what the Australian body politic should be about—having a robust democracy where the meat-eater and the vegan can sit down as one, enjoy each other's company and debate respectfully their differences about food production—not thinking that it's okay to go into each other's homes, onto each other's property, and actually harass, intimidate and put people out of business. It's not on, it's not okay, and Australians stand with us, our government and this Senate in supporting this bill.</para>
<para>This isn't an ag-gag bill; I've heard that a bit through the debate. It's actually an 'ag brag' bill. We are very proud of our primary producers, our fishers and our foresters. We want them to keep producing. We don't want to shut down what they do. It is clean, green product for our domestic supply, but we actually export 70 per cent of it. Our accounts would be in a bit of trouble if we shut down our livestock industry and our agricultural industry. You never let the economics get in the way of a good emotional argument, Greens, because you never have to pay for anything. The governing parties in this Senate have to consider the impact of policy decisions on peoples' jobs, on broader society and on our national economy. That's why we make the decisions we do. We stand with the productive capacity, which is our farmers. Farmers are an important part of our community and they deserve to go about their business free from harassment, threat and harm.</para>
<para>This bill will protect farmers from those who use the internet and other carriage services to encourage others to trespass or damage property on their land. There has been a bit of chat about trespass laws in the debate. Of course trespass laws are the purview of state governments, and I call on all state governments to get serious about those who seek to trespass on private property with specific respect to this issue, but as a federal government we also have to look at the incitation and use of the internet for these negative purposes. I look forward to the amendment stage, and I believe this bill delivers on our commitment to ensure Australian farmers and their families and workers feel safe in their businesses and homes. I commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>204953</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator McKim be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:51]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Gallacher)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>40</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M (teller)</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>10:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I foreshadowed earlier in my speech, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">", but the Senate:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee inquiry into this bill identified a range of potential unintended consequences that could flow from the operation of new criminal offences contained in this bill; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Government to carefully monitor the operation of the new laws to ensure that unintended consequences do not arise, and if they do, urgently introduce any necessary amendments to the new laws."</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the second reading amendment moved by Senator Ciccone be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [10:59]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M (teller)</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>31</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>7</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Brown, CL</name>
                  <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                  <name>Farrell, D</name>
                  <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Griff, S</name>
                  <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Wong, P</name>
                  <name>Cormann, </name>
                </names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is now that the bill be read a second time.</para>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:03]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>53</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Cash, MC</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P (teller)</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>Lines, S</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Payne, MA</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Sterle, G</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>9</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a second time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>14</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just wanted to confirm that, despite this bill being taken as a whole, we can still vote on the amendments before the committee separately.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, we'll deal with each amendment independently, unless the Senate grants leave.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move government amendments (1) to (5) on sheet QL133 and table a supplementary explanatory memorandum relating to our amendments:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) Schedule 1, item 1, page 4 (after line 13), after paragraph (p) of the definition of <inline font-style="italic">primary production business</inline>, insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (pa) a business of operating:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">      (i) a wood processing facility; or</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">      (ii) a wood fibre processing facility;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) Schedule 1, item 2, page 5 (lines 11 and 12), omit the note.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(3) Schedule 1, item 2, page 5 (after line 12), after subsection 474.46(2), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (2A) In a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1), the defendant does not bear an evidential burden in relation to the matters in subsection (2), despite subsection 13.3(3).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(4) Schedule 1, item 2, page 6 (lines 9 and 10), omit the note.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(5) Schedule 1, item 2, page 6 (after line 10), after subsection 474.47(2), insert:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (2A) In a prosecution for an offence against subsection (1), the defendant does not bear an evidential burden in relation to the matters in subsection (2), despite subsection 13.3(3).</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to ask the minister a few questions about how we arrived at the place that we're currently in. Firstly, can you confirm that these amendments were actually suggested to the government by the Australian Labor Party?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We went through an inquiry process, and, as I said in my summing-up speech, there was a lot of advice given to the government through that process around amendments that would clarify the bill for certain people out in the community. The government have taken on board that advice from a range of sources and are tabling amendments to reflect that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm presuming you understood the ordinary, English-language meaning of the words that I used in my question, so I'll just narrow it down in case it was confusing for you. I'm specifically asking about the first amendment on sheet QL133 and whether that amendment had its genesis from the Australian Labor Party.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The government have put amendments before the Senate. We have talked to an array of senators and community members throughout the inquiry process, and the amendments sit before the committee.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We can talk about this for quite some time, if you like. It's totally up to you. I'm simply asking you a question that I'm entitled to ask—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Hanson</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: I want to know the relevance of this to the amendment that has been put forward by the government in relation to this bill.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Thank you, but there is no point of order in that respect.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I'll ask you again. I don't know why you're finding this a difficult question to answer. I've asked it twice, and you've failed to answer it twice. This amendment was obviously not in the original bill, so I'm simply asking you whether this amendment was proposed or suggested to the government by the Australian Labor Party—yes or no.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, I'm going to speak slowly because you haven't been able to understand what I've said the last two times you've asked this question. I am tabling government amendments to the legislation. This is not unusual. As a government, we take on board feedback we get through the committee process and other discussions and willingly amend our legislation, when required. Government have drafted these amendments. They are tabled before the committee. That is how we want the amended bill to proceed.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>All right, well, I'm going to take that as a yes, it was suggested to the government by the Labor Party, because you haven't denied it despite being given three opportunities to deny it. You can use whatever form of weasel words you like, but it is clear that the Labor Party suggested this amendment to the government because, if they didn't, the government would have simply got up and said no. I want to be clear about what the Labor Party is doing here; I want to be very clear about this. In suggesting this amendment to the government, the Labor Party have actually sold out the environment movement in this country. They have sold out people who want to protest to keep our forests standing. They have sold out people who want to protest to look after our biodiversity. To state the bleeding obvious, we are in the middle of a climate emergency and a biodiversity crisis on this planet. If the bloody ALP, covering up for the government and suggesting amendments—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator McKim, resume your seat.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>that actually make it harder for the environment movement to keep the carbon in the forests.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Senator McKim! Senator Watt, a point of order?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, a point of order: yet again, it seems that the extreme Greens party have forgotten that there's actually an LNP-run government—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: What's your point of order, Senator Watt?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is on relevance. Yet again, we see from the Greens that their only intention is to come in here and bring down Labor, rather than to stand up for the principles that they say they believe in. It's pathetic.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Because of the interruption, Senator McKim, I'd ask you to refrain in future from using language that I may deem unparliamentary.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>So, you've got the Australian Labor Party 'fern hooking' the environment movement in this country—cutting them off at the knees. After many of us watched some elements of the environment movement go into bat so hard for the Labor Party in the last election—so hard. They backed in the Labor Party—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>By running against us!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Some elements of the environment movement backed in the Labor Party.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You know, Senator Watt, and they know who they were. And boy did that backfire on them massively. And here you've got the Labor Party repaying that favour that some parts of the environment did them during the election campaign by coming in here and suggesting to the LNP that they should move this draconian amendment to an already-draconian bill that the Labor Party used to oppose but now, in the new Labor way, support.</para>
<para>I want to be very clear about what this parliament's just witnessed. This parliament's just witnessed the Labor Party voting against its own recommendations from the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee. That's what the Labor Party has just done, by voting against the Australian Greens second reading—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll take some aspect of that loud interjection, despite the fact that I didn't hear it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That you're an idiot?</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Resume your seat for just a moment, Senator McKim. Senator Watt, I'd ask you to withdraw.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I withdraw. He's a buffoon, a—</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: No, Senator Watt—you'll withdraw unreservedly.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay, I withdraw unreservedly.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Watt.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And I will take whatever interjection, because I actually want to read it in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard </inline>later, to see what Senator Watt called me. But what we know is that during the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Committee the Labor Party recommended that this bill be withdrawn and redrafted to rasp some of the rough edges off it and then resubmitted to that committee for inquiry. That is exactly the wording in the Australian Greens second reading amendment that Labor voted against. The term 'gross hypocrisy' doesn't even come close to describing the Labor Party's behaviour. And now, to compound their sins, they have suggested to the government moving an amendment that broadens the definition of primary production business to include the business of operating a wood processing facility or a wood fibre processing facility—in other words, a woodchip mill.</para>
<para>So, Minister, given that this amendment that the Labor Party suggested to you has somehow magically now become a government amendment, I've got some questions that I want to ask you about it. Firstly, would this include any wood processing facilities or wood fibre processing facilities on public land?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order, Chair. I wanted to let Senator McKim finish his diatribe before I got up to point out that, in fact, it was not Labor that proposed amendment (1).</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Senator Watt, you have the call. This is not a point of order. You're making a contribution to the debate.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Watt</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Okay, I'll do that later.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Would you like the call?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I would. Thank you, Chair. Unfortunately Senator McKim and his colleagues in the Greens never like to let the truth get in the way of a good political wedge against Labor. I would like to point out that, in fact, it was not Labor that proposed amendment (1), which I understand is the one that he is most exercised about. So I'm sorry to disappoint you, Senator McKim. You might have to find another reason to try and wedge Labor rather than focus on a government that is pillaging the environment that you say you care about. But keep coming after us; that's fine.</para>
<para>We did, however, propose amendments (2) to (5), which go to issues of press freedom. The Greens say they care about press freedom, but it was Labor that moved these amendments. Labor did not propose amendment (1) but will support it, it having been proposed, because it simply fixes a small anomaly in the bill, which currently includes a range of facilities as primary production facilities, including agriculture businesses, fish processing facilities and abattoirs. Sorry to disappoint you: we didn't propose the amendment. Your conspiracy—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKim</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But you're supporting it.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We are supporting it. Unfortunately, your conspiracy theory on this occasion is not true, but I'm sure we won't have to wait very long to see another one. So good luck, and I look forward to it.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to make a short contribution and add my voice to what Senator McKim said about amendment (1) on sheet QL133. The government's amendment is to shield more businesses from scrutiny, and this is exactly the scope creep that the Greens have been warning about. Who knows how many other big businesses will be added to this list? It's going to be an endless list, from what I can see.</para>
<para>But we know this government have an anti-protest agenda. They would quash all dissent if they could. We know this government's vision for Australia—they want a country where there is no sign of protest, where no dissent is permitted and where no voices different to the government's exist, because all environmental activists and all animal welfare activists have been gagged and censored.</para>
<para>And shame on the Labor Party for standing shoulder to shoulder with the government on this anti-protest agenda. You came in here. You talked the big talk. You put in additional comments to the committee, highlighting the very flaws in this bill. You made grandstanding speeches in the chamber, and yet you sat there with the government and waved in this anti-protest bill and you're going to sit with them again to expand the scope of this bill. Shame on you.</para>
<para>I end by saying that, sadly, Australia is becoming a poster child for the gagging of animal rights and environmental activists. The Greens will never stand for this. We will oppose every single attempt to silence dissent and protest in our country, and we will be the real opposition to this government's destructive agenda.</para>
<para>The TEMPORARY CHAIR: Thank you, Senator Faruqi. Before I call Senator Watt, I remind all senators to address their comments to the chair. Senator Watt.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I might add a little bit more in terms of the reasons for Labor's support of amendments (2) to (5), which, as I say, go to matters of press freedom. As Labor speakers on this bill have made clear, while supporting the general intent of this bill to better protect farms and farming communities from unlawful trespass by extremist protesters on their land, Labor has been concerned that this bill may have the effect of criminalising the actions of journalists who are only seeking to do their jobs in the public interest. This could include merely reporting on matters of unlawful animal cruelty.</para>
<para>As I noted in my speech in the second reading debate, evidence to the Senate committee inquiring into this bill from numerous submitters, including the Law Council of Australia and Australia's Right to Know Coalition, was that, as presently drafted, the protections in this bill are inadequate to protect public interest journalism. We've been pressing for an amendment to address these concerns and are pleased to have been able to reach agreement with the government on this amendment. It's another good example of what can be achieved by a party that is interested in governing and interested in good legislation—and I am referring there to Labor rather than the government—rather than grandstanding, as we're seeing from the other corner of this room.</para>
<para>Like so many Australians, over recent months I have been concerned to see the Morrison government's lack of respect for the public's right to know about unlawful activities and the government's willingness to use the criminal law and the police to seek to intimidate independent journalists and whistleblowers who seek to expose wrongdoing. We in Labor have been concerned to ensure that this bill will not add to the threats to journalists and media organisations which fulfil a vital role in our democracy. Amendments (2) to (5), in our opinion, will achieve that objective, and they therefore have Labor's support.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I just want to address a couple of the questions raised in the debate thus far on the amendments and the reason the government is putting forward a wood-processing facility and a wood-fibre-processing facility. Contrary to the Greens' claims, this is an incredibly positive amendment. The bill currently covers saleyards, abattoirs and aquaculture facilities. To suggest that our foresters and our forest industry—70,000 Australians are employed in the forest industry, which is worth $23 billion to this economy—can't be protected from the illegal criminal activities of trespass, harassment and intimidation is a joke. This is not about lawful protest; this is about people who are inciting harm. Our forest industries are incredibly productive. We have the most sustainable forest industries in the world. We should be standing up for our forest industries, which are completely sustainable, and ensuring that they can continue to provide much-needed employment in rural and regional areas. Covering these sorts of facilities, as we're covering aquaculture, abattoirs and saleyards, is not a huge expansion; it's just understanding that primary production in this country includes farming, fishing and forestry. That is the definition, so it all makes intense sense.</para>
<para>In terms of Senator McKim's question about public land, because this goes to incitement of trespass, it has to be on private land or public land that's leased, if that answers your question.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'd like to ask a question to the minister. I heard you say that provisions relating to the protection of forestry operations only apply to private land in Tasmania. I'm sure you are aware that most of the industry, and most of the problem, is on crown land, not private land. Why doesn't this bill offer any protection for these businesses, especially in Tasmania?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:28</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Lambie, you raise an issue that has been a great topic not just with public forestry but with fishing in public waters as well. These are two areas that are controlled by state governments, so it would be inappropriate for us as a federal government to go into that space. But I would encourage state governments, as the Labor Party contribution earlier went to, to think about how we protect primary producers—our fishers and foresters, in the main—from this type of behaviour when they're on public land. But, to answer your question: as you say, if private enterprises are leasing the crown land for that processing facility, they'll be covered; otherwise it will be up to state governments to deal with that.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator LAMBIE</name>
    <name.id>250026</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I accept that you cannot trespass on public land and so you cannot incite trespass on public land, but it's not just trespassing that is the problem. What protections does this bill offer against private property damage or disproportionate economic harm to legal forestry operations on crown land?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, Senator Lambie, you raise a very good question, and one that we've also grappled with. This does deal with the trespass per se, but you can't trespass on crown land. So it won't cover that type of activity.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Chair, perhaps I could assist Senator Lambie and point out something that is fundamentally missing from this debate. Senator Lambie, you actually don't need to stop people trespassing on crown forestry land, because the government has essentially pinged that in this legislation anyway, because woodchip mills and wood-processing plants are privately owned on private land, but they use a public resource.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That they pay for.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You have put new protest laws in place in this country with a stroke of a pen, no doubt driven by my Tasmanian colleagues Senator Abetz and Senator Colbeck. Let them come into this place if they want to argue that case or point me wrong; I'm very happy for them to do that. You have taken this and expanded it to a completely new point in Australian protest laws.</para>
<para>The World Heritage extensions in Tasmania, the 180,000 hectares of World Heritage forests and the World Heritage forests before them, are now the pride of my state and one of its No. 1 tourist attractions, not to mention the lungs of the earth that soak up carbon in a time of climate crisis. They were protected because of forest protesters. Many of the protests that led to their protection occurred on woodchip mills and wood-processing plants on private land.</para>
<para>Everything else in the Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019 refers to private production being potentially processed on private land; this is completely different. This is a massive extension and overreach of this legislation. It's political opportunism par excellence by my fellow senators from Tasmania who've always opposed forest protesters who are simply trying to save forests for future generations; forests that are rich and diverse in their ecosystems, and forests which sequester carbon. The No. 1 thing the IPCC, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, said in their last two reports that we need to do to act on climate to reduce emissions is protect our existing forests and plant more trees. It cannot be any clearer than that.</para>
<para>What the government has done today has taken away any chance that forestry protesters have got to protect those forests. It just happens to be a coincidence that in Tasmania, in about six months time, nearly 400,000 hectares of high-value conservation forest—which I, and especially Senator McKim, spent years negotiating with the Labor Party to have permanently protected—will be ripped up by the Tasmanian Liberal government. The forests were put in temporary protection. In six months time, 400,000 hectares of some of the world's most pristine rainforests are up for grabs. And, now, Minister, in introducing this legislation and tacking on what you say is a 'small minor amendment', backed up by the Labor Party—a 'small change' to the scope of this bill, you say—you have now turned your back on future generations that need these forests protected.</para>
<para>Senator McKenzie, while I'm on my feet, I wanted to ask you—because I heard your contribution in the second reading debate—whether you were aware of a pig farmer in Tasmania called Gary William Oliver and whether you were aware of his case from 2009. I'd like to tell you about it. In Scottsdale, an animal welfare advocate had been tipped off by employees, who were too scared to speak out, about appalling animal welfare practices on this man's farm in Tasmania. This animal advocate did trespass, did go onto the property, and did film these pigs. The footage was shown all around the country and it was absolutely appalling and very confronting. I will tell you why I'd like you to hear this story, Senator McKenzie—through you, Chair.</para>
<para>This animal rights activist didn't want to be named. She wanted to remain anonymous. She went to the RSPCA—and this is why it was controversial, because the RSPCA then said to her, 'We're not interested. We're closed for the weekend. Don't want to know about it'. She was so distraught by the footage that she had taken and what she had seen that she fronted up at the Scottsdale Police Station and said to the constable and the sergeant on duty: 'I've broken the law, I've trespassed, but I've got nowhere else to go.' The policeman sat her down and said, 'Right, well, we'll have to take you into custody. We're going to have to charge you.' She said, 'Will you look at this footage?' The police did that, and they were so appalled and so confronted by it, they said, 'Get in the car; we're going out to confront the farmer,' and they arrested him.</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Exactly. That went to the magistrate—and, believe me, pig farming's a big business in Scottsdale; there are a number of big pig-farmers—and the magistrate said, 'If that is what industrial pig farming is all about, it's not viable; it is just not viable if animals are treated that way.' That led to a lot of changes—changes because of the bravery of one woman who was prepared to flout the law because of her beliefs.</para>
<para>How can you come here and say that that kind of conviction to look after animals—and, ultimately, the reputation of these farmers and their industry, because most farmers do do the right thing—should be penalised? How can you stand in here and say that that kind of behaviour is somehow misguided, or it's terrorism, which is what I've heard Senator Hanson call it? It's one good individual, one human being, trying to do the right thing—</para>
<para>Government senators: No, it's not.</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WHISH-WILSON</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It absolutely was in this case. These laws will now make it a lot more difficult for those who actually care about animals. This is also about the reputation and the sustainability of these businesses, particularly in the face of meat alternatives, which I've heard you talk about and seen you Tweet about, which are becoming very popular. These are the kinds of things that the industry needs to be aware of. If someone feels deeply about an issue of animal welfare and no-one else is able to investigate it, and people are too scared to blow the whistle—I'm appalled at the level of debate in here about good people just trying to do good things, regardless of what you say.</para>
<para>In this case, it led to good, and the right outcome was achieved because of one brave individual who happened to be an animal welfare advocate. I just wanted to put that on record, and you can get up and talk about it if you like. I wanted to make you aware of that particular case, and there are others like it.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Before I call the minister, once again I'm just going to remind senators to please address your comments to the chair. We don't want to personalise these things. If you refer to other senators, it's not as 'you'; it's as their name and so forth. That way we will maintain a peaceful and orderly Senate.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In the effort to maintain a peaceful and orderly Senate, Temporary Chair Bernardi, I shall address my remarks through you. I wanted to assure Senator Whish-Wilson that this bill doesn't deal with trespass, because this place can't deal with trespass. This bill deals with those who would seek to incite others to criminal activity. If they're seeking to incite people to criminal activity, which is trespass, harassment, intimidation, biosecurity risks, damaging stock, damaging property—criminal activities—then they will be charged. On the issue you speak about with respect to the forests, as Senator Watt said earlier, 'Don't let the facts get in the way of a good emotional argument from the Greens.' I have to agree with my good friend Senator Watt. We don't agree on much but we do agree on this.</para>
<para>The idea, as you stand up in this place and say, that the bill before us and the amendment before us will somehow decimate our world-class forestry management system, the sustainable harvesting of beautiful Australian hardwood and plantation forest, is an absolute crock—an absolute crock. It does not do that at all. What this bill does is criminalise inciting others onto private property to damage property, so people can go about their lawful business. To suggest it's going to shut down our beautiful World Heritage areas or somehow stop people lawfully and peacefully protesting and expressing their views in this country, again, is not true. It is not what the bill says or does; the bill is about those who seek to incite others to behave illegally.</para>
<para>Finally, on your issue of the piggery in Scottsdale, quite frankly I think it says more about the RSPCA in Tasmania than anything else—that they didn't take seriously a genuine animal welfare issue that was brought to them in a timely manner. It should have been taken seriously. They should have acted. That is why they're a source trusted by communities around the country on animal welfare issues. But, no surprise, it happens to be the weekend they're not interested in actually prosecuting what they're set up to do. Again, trespass is a state law issue, and I think state governments need to—as I said in my comments—ensure their trespass regime is robust enough and has protection around disclosure of information, particularly around animal welfare issues. But they also need to ensure that there are hefty fines and that our judiciary, instead of handing out a $1 fine for somebody that closed down a law-abiding business, actually seeks to uphold the law in meaningful ways. I hope that's of assistance to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Whish-Wilson made a comment that I called them terrorists. I certainly did. I also called them ratbags, idiots, morons and a few other words. The definition of terrorism is:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.</para></quote>
<para>And that's exactly what it is—and it is not only political aims but also their own personal agendas: because they are vegans, they don't want to eat meat, so no-one else should be eating it. This has nothing to do with what Senator McKim said about the piggery in Tasmania. I totally agree that if animals are treated that way, sure, it should be investigated, by all means. This legislation has nothing to do with that. We saw the footage where they went into abattoirs and locked themselves to the pipes. They stopped the plant from doing its work. They have taken animals. They actually had to negotiate so they could pack about 30 of the sheep in their cars and take them away, just to get rid of them and off the premises. We've had a cafe shut down because of intimidation and threats, and the business said, 'We can't deal with this.'</para>
<para>This has nothing to do with the welfare of animals. The animals are being looked after. There is no problem there. Any Australian will stand up and fight against animals being mistreated in this country. All Australians do. But Australians are actually fed up with this. This legislation has ended up on the floor of this parliament for us to try to do something about it because the judges have been too gutless to hand down decent fines to deter these people from carrying on and inciting violence and terrorism. We have to give the people of this country assurances that they can live in safety and security and run their businesses according to the law. We have not protected them enough through our judicial system. That's why I support this law.</para>
<para>By introducing amendment (1) to include a wood-processing facility—why wouldn't we? Haven't we seen over the years where these protesters have actually gone onto private plantations and hugged or tied themselves to a tree so people can't do their job? It has nothing to do with World Heritage listing of forests in Tasmania, because the people don't want to see that happen.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Whish-Wilson</name>
    <name.id>195565</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, it does.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Through the chair, the comment earlier from Senator Whish-Wilson was, in his own words, 'World Heritage listing'—that they can't be touched; they're World Heritage listed. Again, the Greens are speaking through their hat. They come out fearmongering. They never put facts on the table to put a decent argument and debate about this. It's all about emotional issues. Talking about the piggery is not dealing with what this legislation is all about. It's not dealing with trees that are going to be cut down in a World Heritage listed area. Old-growth forests are not going to be touched. It's about new plantation trees that we need to have in Australia, and this is why—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>G0D</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Hanson! It being 11.45, the committee should report progress.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>20</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>20</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I give notice that very shortly I will be handing a motion to the Clerk on youth justice.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Presentation</title>
          <page.no>20</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>22</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Selection of Bills Committee</title>
          <page.no>22</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Report</title>
            <page.no>22</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the fifth report of 2019 of the Selection of Bills Committee, and I seek leave to have the report incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The report read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Report no. 5 of 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1. The committee met in private session on Wednesday, 11 September 2019 at 6.45pm.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">2. The committee recommends that—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) the Constitution Alteration (Water Resources) 2019 be referred immediately to the Select Committee on the Multi-Jurisdictional Management and Execution of the Murray Darling Basin Plan for inquiry and report by 1 November 2020 (see appendix 1 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the provisions of the Crimes Legislation Amendment (Sexual Crimes Against Children and Community Protection Measures) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 7 November 2019 (see appendix 2 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the provisions of the New Skilled Regional Visas (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 11 October 2019 (see appendix 3 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the provisions of the Emergency Response Fund Bill 2019 and the Emergency Response Fund (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 10 October 2019 (see appendix 4 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(e) contingent upon introduction in the House of Representatives, the provisions of the National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation Amendment Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Economics Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by 10 October 2019 (see appendix 5 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(f) the Product Stewardship Amendment (Packaging and Plastics) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee for inquiry and report by the last sitting day in March 2020 (see appendix 6 for a statement of reasons for referral);</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(g) the provisions of the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Income Management to Cashless Debit Card Transition) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Community Affairs Legislation Committee but was unable to reach agreement on a reporting date (see appendix 7 for a statement of reasons for referral); and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(h) the provisions of the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Drug Testing Trial) Bill 2019 be referred immediately to the Community Affairs Legislation Committee but was unable to reach agreement on a reporting date (see appendix 8 for a statement of reasons for referral).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">3. The committee recommends that the following bills not be referred to committees:</para></quote>
<list>Human Rights (Parliamentary Scrutiny) Amendment (Australian Freedoms) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Landholders' Right to Refuse (Gas and Coal) Bill 2015</list>
<list>National Health Amendment (Safety Net Thresholds) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Nuclear Fuel Cycle (Facilitation) Bill 2017.</list>
<quote><para class="block">4. The committee deferred consideration of the following bills to its next meeting:</para></quote>
<list>Air Services Amendment Bill 2018</list>
<list>ANL Legislation Repeal Bill 2019</list>
<list>Constitution Alteration (Freedom of Expression and Freedom of the Press) 2019</list>
<list>Customs Amendment (Product Specific Rule Modernisation) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Customs Amendment (Safer Cladding) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Discrimination Free Schools Bill 2018</list>
<list>Great Australian Bight Environment Protection Bill 2019</list>
<list>Military Rehabilitation and Compensation Amendment (Single Treatment Pathway) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Paid Parental Leave Amendment (Work Test) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Regional Forest Agreements Legislation (Repeal) Bill 2017</list>
<list>Social Services Legislation Amendment (Better Targeting Student Payments) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Social Services Legislation Amendment (Ending the Poverty Trap) Bill 2018</list>
<list>Social Services Legislation Amendment (Payment Integrity) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Telecommunications Legislation Amendment (Unsolicited Communications) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Veterans' Affairs Legislation Amendment (Partner Service Pension and Other Measures) Bill 2019</list>
<quote><para class="block">5. The committee considered the following bills but was unable to reach agreement:</para></quote>
<list>Australian Passports Amendment (Identity-matching Services) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (2019 Measures No. 1) Bill 2019</list>
<list>Identity-matching Services Bill 2019.</list>
<quote><para class="block">(see appendices 9, 10 and 11 for a statement of reasons for proposed referral).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(Dean Smith)</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Chair</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">12 September 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 1</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Constitution Alteration (Water Resources) 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">THE BILL DEALS WITH A HIGHLY COMPLEX NATIONAL ISSUE WHICH REQUIRE PROPER CONSIDERATION INFORMED BY EXPERT GROUPS AND AGENCIES OUTSIDE THE PARLIAMENT</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As determined by the Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Select Committee on the Multi-Jurisdictional Management and Execution of the Murray Darling Basin Plan - Jurisdictional Management and Execution of the Murray Darling Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As determined by the Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">1 November 2020</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 2</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Crimes Legislation Amendment (Sexual Crimes Against Children and Community Protection Measures) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To ensure the bill is fit for purpose, appropriately drafted, does not result in unintended consequences and to allow stakeholders a chance to provide advice on any problems to be fixed or improvements that could be made.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Law Council, various legal services, survivors of child sexual abuse and other victims groups, and other civil society organisations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7 November 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Crimes Legislation Amendment (Sexual Crimes Against Children and Community Protection Measures) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Mandatory sentencing</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal advocates and experts such as the Law Council of Australia, Australian Lawyers Alliance, Human Rights Law Centre.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">28-29 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 December 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 3</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">New Skilled Regional Visas (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further investigation and consultation with stakeholders on the impact of the legislation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australia's universities; unions; employer groups; local governments; state/territory governments</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 4</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Emergency Response Fund Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Emergency Response Fund (Consequential Amendments) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These bills make significant changes to existing arrangements, particularly to the Education Investment Fund, which merits proper investigation of the impacts of the changes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Finance</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Home Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Emergency Management Australia</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Education</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Universities Australia</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Group of Eight</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Technology Network</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Innovative Research Universities</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">NUW Alliance</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Regional Universities Network</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Finance and Public Administration Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 5</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">National Housing Finance and Investment Corporation Amendment Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To understand the effect this bill will have on home ownership, property prices and housing stock.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<list>Grattan Institute</list>
<list>Major mortgage providers (banks)</list>
<list>Housing institute Australia</list>
<list>Property Council</list>
<list>Lenders mortgage insurance providers</list>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<list>Senate Economics Legislation Committee</list>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">10 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 6</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Product Stewardship Amendment (Packaging and Plastics) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To evaluate the environmental and economic impacts of the Bill</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Packaging and retail industry</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Waste and recycling industry</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment groups</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environmental consultants</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Economists</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Environment & Communications</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">November 2019, or February 2020.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">March 2020.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 7</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Income Management to Cashless Debit Card Transition) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">evidence about effectiveness of compulsory income management, impact of compulsory income management on people in NT, extent to which communities have been consulted and involved in decision making,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Aboriginal Peak Organisations Northern Territory, Tangeria council, Arnhem Land Progress Association, Northern Territory Council of Social Service, Jesuits, St Vincent de Paul Society, Human Rights Law Commission, National Aboriginal Community Controlled Health Organisation, Australian Human Rights Commission, Anglicare Australia, Dr Elise Klein, Dr Shelley Bielefeld, Dr Janet Hunt, UnitingCare Australia, Accountable Income Management Network, Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Nov 28th</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Income Management to Cashless Debit Card Transition) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<list>Operational effectiveness of the cashless debit card</list>
<list>Racial discrimination - application of the policy to the NT</list>
<list>Auditor General's concerns about the cashless debit card</list>
<list>Consultation with effected communities</list>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<list>NT communities</list>
<list>Social services organisations</list>
<list>Medical and allied health services</list>
<list>Indue</list>
<list>NT and Qld Government</list>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">7 November 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 8</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Social Services Legislation Amendment (Drug Testing Trial) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Need for proper consultation with the sector and the lack of evidence to support drug testing of income support recipients.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists, Public Health Association of Australia, National Drug and Alcohol Research Centre, St Vincent de Paul Society, Mission Australia, Australian Council of Social Service, Catholic Social Services Australia, Salvation Army, UnitingCare Australia, Australian Human Rights Commission, Australian Medical Association, St Vincent's Health Australia, Royal Australasian College of Physicians</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Community Affairs</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Nov 27th</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Social Services Legislation Amendment (Drug Testing Trial) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<list>Confirm operational arrangements</list>
<list>Seek expert advice on effectiveness of proposed policy</list>
<list>Consult with impacted communities</list>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<list>Local communities</list>
<list>Social services organisations</list>
<list>Medical and allied health services</list>
<list>Addiction specialists</list>
<list>Local and state governments</list>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Senate Community Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 9</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Australian Passports Amendment (Identity-matching Services) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Concerns regarding digital and legal rights, including privacy (and compatibility with Privacy Act 1988).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and digital rights experts such as the Law Council of Australia, Australian Lawyers Alliance, Human Rights Law Centre, Digital Rights Watch, and Electronic Frontiers Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be determined by the committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">11 October 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 10</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (2019 Measures No.1) Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">All counter-terrorism bills will have an impact on human rights, and thus warrant public and Committee scrutiny.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal experts such as the Law Council of Australia, Australian Lawyers Alliance, Human Rights Law Centre, and the International Justice Mission.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">18-19 November 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">5 December 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Appendix 11</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SELECTION OF BILLS COMMITTEE</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Proposal to refer a bill to a committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Name of bill:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Identity-matching Services Bill 2019</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reasons for referral/principal issues for consideration:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Concerns regarding digital and legal rights, including privacy (and compatibility with Privacy Act 1988).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible submissions or evidence from:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and digital rights experts such as the Law Council of Australia, Australian Lawyers Alliance, Human Rights Law Centre, Digital Rights Watch, and Electronic Frontiers Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Committee to which bill is to be referred:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Legal and Constitutional Affairs Legislation Committee</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible hearing date(s):</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">21-22 November 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Possible reporting date:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">third day of February 2020</para></quote>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the report be adopted.</para></quote>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move an amendment as circulated in the chamber:</para>
<quote><para class="block">At the end of the motion, add, "but:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) in respect of the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Income Management to Cashless Debit Card Transition) Bill 2019, the Community Affairs Legislation Committee report by 7 November 2019;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) in respect of the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Drug Testing Trial) Bill 2019, the Community Affairs Legislation Committee report by 10 October 2019; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) the following bills not be referred to committees:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Australian Passports Amendment (Identity-matching Services) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Counter-Terrorism Legislation Amendment (2019 Measures No. 1) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Identity-matching Services Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Veterans' Affairs Legislation Amendment (Partner Service Pension and Other Measures) Bill 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">ANL Legislation Repeal Bill 2019".</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move an amendment to the government's amendment, circulated in my name in the chamber:</para>
<quote><para class="block">In paragraph (a), omit "7 November 2019", substitute "28 November 2019".</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In paragraph (b), omit "10 October 2019", substitute "27 November 2019".</para></quote>
<para>This is to extend the reporting dates for the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Drug Testing Trial) Bill 2019 and the Social Security (Administration) Amendment (Income Management to Cashless Debit Card Transition) Bill 2019. The reporting dates on both of those are far too soon to allow us to get the evidence that we need and to enable us to travel, particularly to the Northern Territory, to be able to look at the impacts, hear evidence and consult, which the government hasn't properly done on the cashless debit card bill in the Northern Territory. I know that because I've had direct correspondence and in fact discussions with organisations in the Northern Territory who are deeply concerned about the cashless debit card bill, which extends the cashless debit card to the Northern Territory. They tell me very clearly that they have not been consulted. Therefore, we need more time as a committee to look into those issues in order to properly discuss and debate this legislation when it comes on for debate in this place. Similarly with drug testing, the government are trying a third time to get their drug testing bill out. We need a proper amount of time to be able to talk to experts about this and to look at the government's changes in the bill, and a reporting date of 10 October for that bill is simply inadequate. So we seek to extend the reporting dates for those two bills, one to 27 November and the other to 28 November.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the amendment proposed by Senator Siewert to the amendment proposed by the government to the Selection of Bills Committee report be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [11:52]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>10</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Rice, J</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>39</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                  <name>Kitching, K</name>
                  <name>McAllister, J</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We will now move to the next question, which is that the government's proposed amendment to the Selection of Bills Committee report be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Original question, as amended, agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUSINESS</title>
        <page.no>29</page.no>
        <type>BUSINESS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Rearrangement</title>
          <page.no>29</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That government business order of the day No. 6, Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019 be considered from 12.45 pm today; and government business be called on after consideration of the bills listed in paragraph (a) and considered until not later than 2 pm today.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the order of general business for consideration today be as follows:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) general business notice of motion No. 120, standing in the name of Senator Gallacher, relating to economic policy; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) orders of the day relating to documents.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration of Legislation</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That general business order of the day relating to the Family Law (Self-Assessment) Bill 2019 be considered on Monday 16 September 2019 at the time for private senators' bills.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Leave of Absence</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That leave of absence be granted to Senator Birmingham today on account of ministerial business.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>There being no other motions, and I understand from the Clerk that there are no postponements or extensions, I shall now proceed to the discovery of formal business. It being Thursday, with the potential for time constraints, I will run through them in the order on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>NOTICES</title>
        <page.no>30</page.no>
        <type>NOTICES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Postponement</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to postpone business of the Senate notice of motion No. 1, standing in my name for today, until the next sitting day.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>30</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Liquefied Natural Gas</title>
          <page.no>30</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senators O'Sullivan and Sterle, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) recognises that Western Australia's North West Shelf celebrated 30 years of liquefied natural gas (LNG) exports in August this year;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) notes the following milestones for the LNG sector:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) that Japan was Western Australia's first LNG customer back in 1989, and continues to be Australia's largest LNG customer,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) in 2006, Western Australia became the first jurisdiction in the world to export LNG to China,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) in 2018, Western Australia's LNG sales by volume increased 34% to 44.7 million tonnes from Gorgon, Wheatstone, Northwest shelf and Pluto, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) in 2019, Australia's total LNG production capacity will reach 88 mtpa, making it the largest LNG producer in the world; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) recognises the important contribution the LNG sector makes to the Western Australian economy, accounting for 17% of total resources and energy exports in 2018, and estimated to be worth $27 billion to the economy.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move an amendment to this motion.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is not granted.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a one-minute statement.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This motion reads like it's written by the LNG industry. Australia becoming the largest LNG producer in the world is nothing to be proud of in an age of a climate emergency. The Western Australian LNG sector emits approximately 32 million tonnes of greenhouse gases annually, which is one-third of WA's total emissions. Chevron and Woodside are Nos 6 and 10 of Australia's top 10 biggest emitters and yet they paid no tax in Australia in 2018 and they continue to pay no royalties. Collectively—and there's no coincidence here, I'm sure—Chevron and Woodside have donated nearly $2.7 million to the coalition and Labor since 2011. Ironically, a recent RepuTex report found that developing a carbon offset market for LNG emissions in Western Australia has the potential to provide large economic opportunities and job creation across the state, particularly in regional communities. Where's the motion for that one?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>11:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Just by way of explanation: while it is unusual to deny leave, it is important to put on the record the fact that the amendment to this particular motion was circulated very, very late—perhaps immediately prior to the beginning of this part of the business of the Senate. In addition to that, it is important that senators be given an opportunity to canvass the views of other senators before making significant amendments to a motion.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Whilst I understand that LNG is a transitional energy source away from higher-emitting carbons, and that in that respect it is good, I will point out that Western Australia doesn't benefit as it should and the nation doesn't benefit as it should. I note that of a number of LNG companies working in Western Australia—ExxonMobil, for one—earned $33 billion over the last four years of tax transparency data, paying no tax. We've had Shell earning $52 billion and paying only $1 billion in tax, and Origin Energy in Western Australia earning $51 billion with only $180 million of tax. So, whilst in some sense I support the sentiment of this motion, we have to work with the reality that there are companies working without social licence in Western Australia that could be contributing more.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>By way of trying to assist the chamber, we seek leave to postpone this motion until the next day of sitting so that we can allow an amendment to be dealt with as it ordinarily would be—with enough notice, and to be able to talk with other senators.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Family Law System</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to amend general business notice of motion No. 118 standing in my name for today.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I move the motion as amended:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) acknowledges:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the cost, cause and impact of lengthy delay in case management on children and families with matters before the Family Court of Australia and the Federal Circuit Court of Australia,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the impact of such delay on the health, safety and wellbeing of children and their families involved in matters before the Family Court of Australia and the Federal Circuit Court of Australia, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government to hold a Royal Commission or establish a joint select committee into the family law system to reach a final and comprehensive determination of this contentious area of law, taking into account all prior reviews to reach an outcome for the benefit of Australian families without further delay in a holistic informed process, rather than in a fragmented fashion which has been the hallmark to the present time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Warragamba Dam</title>
          <page.no>31</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senators Siewert, Keneally and Dodson, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) Traditional Owners have not been given enough time to assess the cultural heritage impact of a plan to raise the wall of Warragamba dam, with just 40 days to respond to a 2000-page report,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the raised dam would flood world heritage-listed areas of the Blue Mountains and a number of Aboriginal cultural heritage sites, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) on 16 August 2019, 100 people gathered in the Blue Mountains village of Faulconbridge for a public meeting, organised by the Blue Mountains City Council and the Wollondilly Shire Council, where Traditional Owners spoke about the 'inadequate and rushed cultural heritage assessment' for the Warragamba dam proposal; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the New South Wales government to give Traditional Owners more time to respond to the report, and to engage in genuine consultation with the community on the Warragamba dam proposal.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>32</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Department of Home Affairs: Paladin Contracts, Order for Production of Documents</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I, and also on behalf of Senator Griff, move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(1) That the Senate notes that—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) Paladin – the small company registered to a beach shack on Kangaroo Island, which was awarded a $523 million contract without a proper tender process – has been fined over 1,000 times in 18 months for failing to provide contracted services;</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">   (b) the Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs Senator Cash told the Senate on 10 September 2019 that these fines "often related to relatively minor administrative failures"; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(c) documents produced under order of the Senate revealed that the total abatement could have totalled $11 million, if not for monthly penalty limits.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(2) That there be laid on the table by the Minister representing the Minister for Home Affairs, by no later than 12.20 pm on 16 September 2019:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) an unredacted copy of each performance management report, which details the aforementioned fines, relating to Paladin's contract to provide services on Manus Island; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) a copy of the full report prepared by the Independent Health Advice Panel for the second quarter of 2019, in accordance with section 199E of the <inline font-style="italic">Migration Act 1958</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>32</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Family Law (Self-Assessment) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>32</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1232">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Family Law (Self-Assessment) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>32</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the following bill be introduced: A Bill for an Act creating a system of mandatory self-assessment of family law matters, and for other purposes. <inline font-style="italic">Family Law (Self-Assessment) Bill 2019</inline>.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I present the bill and move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill may proceed without formalities and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a first time.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>32</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to table an explanatory memorandum relating to the bill.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I table an explanatory memorandum, and I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">FAMILY LAW (SELF-ASSESSMENT) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">SECOND READING SPEECH</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill seeks to help speed up the resolution of relationship property and parenting disputes both for couples who cannot afford to go to court or for those who can.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Approximately 390,000 Australians have been forced to endure the pitfalls of our hugely dysfunctional divorce system since the time of the last election. Delays inside courts are up to six years in some instances. Delays outside courts average 23 months.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 2 of this Bill creates a new obligation on divorcees to disclose their financial affairs online and to divide their lifetime wealth by paying up minimum incontestable sums, promptly. Compliance under this Bill applies to Australians regardless of wealth or a trip to the Family Court. A statutory timetable and a series of minimum payment obligations are created.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill deploys the same broad method of financial self-assessment that former Treasurer Paul Keating invented in relation to income tax, and which former Treasurer Peter Costello perfected in relation to GST. The Bill requires that each spouse self-assess a just and equitable division of the couple's relationship wealth and pay up front to the extent they are not in conflict, rather than when all matters are finally resolved.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Separating couples will have obligations to shrink their dispute to 10% of their relationship wealth and put the residual money in a joint bank account while they negotiate or mediate. The disclosures are to occur online at no cost to government.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Mediation on financial matters would thus become compulsory in much the same manner as mediation on parenting matters is compulsory under current law as a result of the reforms enacted by all Parliamentarians in 2006. Research shows that compulsory mediation already works to resolve eight out of nine property relationship disputes.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Introduction of this reform is the economic equivalent of: one, appointing 26 new federal circuit judges; two, on average giving back to separating couples 450 days of their lives currently taken up with payment delays; and three, quadrupling the effectiveness of Relationships Australia for middle class Australians.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Reducing financial tension in this manner would have more real-world impact on the number of instances of reported family violence disputes than all of the laws passed, and all of the funding approved, by this Parliament in this parliamentary term.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will help to restore the original intent of family law legislation, that is, to ensure that calmness, rationality, low cost and speed prevail. This Bill does not change the <inline font-style="italic">Family Law Act</inline>. It just makes the law applicable to all by flipping the compliance burden from the State onto the shoulders of the financially stronger spouse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Part 3 of this Bill will require spouses to each abide by the existing laws on shared parenting. It will require parents who do not wish to comply with shared parenting to explain their reasons why and to mediate, regardless of going to court.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The existing exemptions for family violence remain in place and are bolstered by a number of other more robust exclusions to assist Legal Aid organisations to be more effective.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Residential parents with reasons to deny standard shared parenting contact hours must state these reasons in a Parenting Self-Assessment notice. Residential parents, and that most often means the mother, who have no reason and simply use courts to delay the inevitable will be subject to fines, as applies in some other jurisdictions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The economic consequence will be a marked reduction in parenting disputes. This Bill will thus enable cases with real domestic violence issues to get priority in the courts. The time for talk about good intentions is over, and the time to act is now.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Where there are real issues of conflict, the Bill requires attendance at an anger management program. These programs are widely used in New Zealand and do a much more effective job than standing around aimlessly in court foyers. More education, and less litigation, is in the best interests of everyone impacted by separation, in particular the children.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill will also place a limit on legal fees which often absorb all the assets of separating couples. This Bill will deregulate legal advice, as was recommended by the Productivity Commission report commissioned some years ago.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Family law has long been one of my priorities. In summary, this Bill does not seek to change the policy of the <inline font-style="italic">Family Law Act 1975</inline>, but rather to ensure it works the way that was envisaged– that is, quickly and rationally.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Nothing in the Bill precludes a person from then exercising a legal right and going to court. But in most cases, there will simply be no need to do so. This Bill proposes the adoption of methods which have been shown to work in other countries.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend this Bill to this Senate.</para></quote>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>33</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Queensland: Mining</title>
          <page.no>33</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DEAN SMITH</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator McDonald, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the resources industry is critical to the Queensland economy, contributing 1 in every 8 jobs in Queensland and $4.3 billion in royalties shared across the state of Queensland,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the New Acland coal mine has been seeking approvals for their Stage 3 expansion since 2007, which would extend the mine's life until 2031 and increase production from 5.2 million tonnes to 7.5 million tonnes per annum,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) the New Acland coal mine is vital for the Oakey economy, currently employing 300 workers with dozens more servicing the needs of the mine site, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) recently, the mine has reduced its staff from 300 to 150, due to 12 years of delays in receiving the necessary approvals; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Queensland Government to not allow its approvals process to be delayed because of judicial activism.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This motion is about yet another new coalmine, and it seems to imply that perhaps judges are going to be the next target of the anti-protest laws of this administration, implying that somehow judicial activism should be silenced, which is sort of ironic considering the court just decided that the coalmine would be given a free pass on water impacts that every other new mine has to take into account. So I think the motion is somewhat misguided in several ways. I want to note that the New Acland coalmine has in fact been actively opposed by local farmers, who are terrified about the impacts on their water supply. Some friend of the farmer this government is! New Acland has also been found guilty of illegally drilling wells at 27 sites and was fined for that. The amount of that fine is, of course, dwarfed by the amount of donations made by the company to the state LNP administration at the time. I might also add that the former political adviser to the Queensland Premier is now a lobbyist for that mine. It's the revolving door between government and industry that is surely the more apposite issue. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor opposes the motion as it's factually inaccurate. The mine has not, at the current time, reduced staff from 300 to 150. This has only been foreshadowed at the current time. We do not believe that the Senate should be asking the Queensland government to interfere in a proper process, particularly when final orders resulting from the Full Court of Appeal have not been made and parties are being called to provide submissions. Labor also notes the Queensland government's ongoing support for the resources sector and that, over the past four years, the Palaszczuk government has facilitated more than $20 billion worth of resource reinvestment, which is supporting 7,000 jobs.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to make it clear that there are farmers who work at Acland who strongly support this mine going ahead and whose livelihoods depend upon Acland. It's very important for the community of Oakey and surrounding communities, very important for the farming industry and very important for coalmining and their workers. We support them.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that Senator McDonald's motion be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:13]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Payne, MA</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>31</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>4</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Cormann, M</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Chisholm, </name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environmental Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999</title>
          <page.no>35</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON-YOUNG</name>
    <name.id>I0U</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a very short and simple motion. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) on 10 September 2019, in relation to general business notice of motion no. 105, the Australian Labor Party indicated it does not like long, detailed motions; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) the <inline font-style="italic">Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999</inline> is ineffective at regulating habitat loss and is failing to prevent species extinction.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The EPBC Act provides a robust framework to protect the environment against actions that have a significant impact on matters of national environmental significance, including on listed threatened species. This includes protecting critical habitat for endangered species. The second statutory review of the EPBC Act is due to commence by October this year and will review the effectiveness of the act.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This is a petty and silly motion being put forward by the Greens, and it's not worthy of the Senate's time. The point that I have been making this week is that this part of the program is not here for senators to raise issues on which all senators should be allowed to participate in debate, particularly where there are varying views. The Greens insist on bringing motions here to have them dealt with in a way that doesn't allow for substantive debate, and it's not fair on senators or on the conduct of business in this place. That is the point I'm making. If the Greens want to retaliate by putting silly motions that waste the Senate's time, that's their own point. If you want to debate the EPBC Act, by all means bring it here and let's have a substantive debate on it. But don't waste the Senate's time retaliating to a point that I made earlier this week about giving the Senate and senators the respect of allowing open debate on issues that warrant it. This motion should be opposed.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that motion No. 124 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:18]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>10</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>55</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Payne, MA</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>0</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names></names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>36</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) community members are in Parliament this week to meet with members and senators to talk about their lived experiences of being on income support,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) many have recounted the stress, trauma and poverty they experience engaging with the income support system and living below the poverty line,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) Newstart and Youth Allowance have not had an increase in real terms for over 25 years,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) recipients of these income support payments are unable to cover basic living costs such as housing, food, transport, healthcare and utilities, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) income inequality and poverty has significant negative effects on individuals' physical and mental wellbeing and society; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government and all members of Parliament to listen to the lived experiences of those on income support, and make it a priority to help address poverty in Australia by raising Newstart and Youth Allowance immediately.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Morrison government is absolutely committed to getting people off welfare and into work.</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! A fine example, I might say. The question is that motion No. 125 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [12:27]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>32</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE (teller)</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>30</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Payne, MA</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>6</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, C</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
                <name>Cormann, </name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Quad Bikes: Safety</title>
          <page.no>37</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) since 2001, more than 230 Australians have died in quad bike-related accidents,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) multiple stakeholders have called for action on quad bike safety, including the National Farmers' Federation, the Rural Doctors Association of Australia, the Royal Flying Doctor Service, the National Rural Health Alliance, the National Rural Women's Coalition, the Country Women's Association of Australia, and the Australian Workers' Union, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) since 2013, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission has regularly issued public warnings on quad bike safety, and has recommended a mandatory safety standard to the Assistant Treasurer, including requiring operator protection devices for general use models; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government to act to prevent future deaths by adopting the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission's recommendations in full.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The government takes the safety of Australians very seriously. The ACCC has only provided its final recommendations to the government in the past fortnight. The government is carefully considering stakeholder feedback, alongside the ACCC's recommendations and advice about implementing a mandatory safety standard.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gender Pay Gap</title>
          <page.no>38</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) 28 August 2019 was Unequal Pay Day, marking the 59 additional days from the end of the previous financial year that women must work, on average, to earn the same amount as men earnt in 2018-19,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) the Workplace Gender Equality Agency (WGEA) annual data, released on 15 August 2019, shows that the gender pay gap in Australia is still unacceptably high at 14%,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) men earn $25,717, or 21.3%, more than women each year on average, in full-time work across all jobs, including overtime and bonuses (total remuneration),</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) financial and insurance services remains the industry with the highest total remuneration gender pay gap at 24.4%,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) professional, scientific and technical services is the industry with the second-highest gender pay gap at 24.3%,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vi) in May 2019, the gender pay gap was 17.3% in the private sector and 10.7% in the public sector,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(vii) in 2018, the gender pay gap amongst managers was 25.7%, with an average total remuneration dollar difference of $50,370 – WGEA attributes this gap as due to more discretionary pay and less reliance on awards and collective agreements among non-managers,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(viii) the WGEA, KPMG Australia and Diversity Council of Australia paper, <inline font-style="italic">She's Price(d)less: the economics of the gender pay gap</inline> , estimates that gender discrimination is the largest single contributor to the gender pay gap, at 39%,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ix) WGEA data shows that 70% of workplaces have a formal policy and strategy in place to support flexible working arrangements for employees, yet less than 2% have set targets for men's engagement in flexible work, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(x) 47.8% of organisations reporting to WGEA provide primary carer's leave, and 41.8% provide secondary carer's leave, in addition to the Federal Government's paid parental leave scheme; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government to:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) increase the resourcing for WGEA, strengthen its powers, and require all large employers to publicly report their gender pay gap,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) prohibit the use of pay gag clauses in private employment contracts, which disguise the gender pay gap in the private sector,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) set gender pay equality as an objective of awards and the Fair Work Act,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) introduce measures to ensure appropriate classification and pay for work in traditionally low paid industries where the majority of workers are women and/or migrants, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) expand the coverage of WGEA to include the public sector.</para></quote>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Under this government the gender pay gap is now 14 per cent, a record low; women's employment is at 6.1 million, a record high. The government is providing an additional $8.6 million to the WGEA to improve workplace gender reporting. When businesses report to the WGEA, they are more likely to address the gender pay gaps within their organisation and narrow the overall gender pay gap. In setting employment terms and conditions the Fair Work system, as introduced by the former Labor government, incorporates the principle of equal remuneration and provides mechanisms for the independent Fair Work Commission to adjust terms and conditions, including on work value grounds.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to make a short statement.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Leave is granted for one minute.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HANSON</name>
    <name.id>BK6</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>This motion is very confusing to me. The Greens support no gender; they are not saying male or female. This is very confusing to me in terms of whether we should support this motion or not. When you want to get rid of gender in our society and you don't put gender on birth certificates, how on earth can you still say there is a gender pay gap between male and female? I'm totally confused. Also, this has not been worked out completely. They take a profession and divide it by the number of people employed in that profession, and then they see inequality. I cannot support this motion. Equality for everyone.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>COMMITTEES</title>
        <page.no>39</page.no>
        <type>COMMITTEES</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Environment and Communications Legislation Committee</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Membership</title>
            <page.no>39</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That Senator Whish-Wilson replace Senator Rice on the Environment and Communications Legislation Committee for the committee’s inquiry into the Product Stewardship Amendment (Packaging and Plastics) Bill 2019, and Senator Rice be appointed as a participating member.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>39</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Water Amendment (Indigenous Authority Member) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>39</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r6353">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Water Amendment (Indigenous Authority Member) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
            <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-Normal">
              <span class="HPS-Normal">Bill received from the House of Representatives.</span>
            </p>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>39</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speech incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speech read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">WATER AMENDMENT (INDIGENOUS AUTHORITY MEMBER) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Australian Government is committed to implementing the Basin Plan. We are committed to doing so in ways that deliver the best outcomes for the Basin, its environment and its many industries and communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Water lies at the core of the Basin. Water supports the diverse and complex ecology that exists throughout the Basin. Water drives agricultural production and the associated wealth supports regional communities and the nation. Water is at the heart of the spiritual and cultural traditions of Basin Indigenous communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">At the Murray-Darling Basin Ministerial Council meeting in December 2018, Basin States made a commitment, in agreement with the Australian Government, to establish a position on the Murray-Darling Basin Authority for a standing Indigenous Authority member. This Bill delivers on that commitment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It also continues the work of the Government in developing programs and opportunities for Indigenous communities in the Basin, to enable them to maintain their spiritual and cultural connection to the river, as well as developing viable economic opportunities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Aboriginal people are the traditional custodians of the Murray-Darling Basin. While a great deal of work has been undertaken by the Government to improve engagement with Indigenous communities in the Basin, there is more that we can do. The establishment of the standing Indigenous position on the Authority continues this work, by improving Indigenous involvement in the management of Basin water resources and recognising the knowledge and expertise that Indigenous communities can bring to the Authority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill provides that the Indigenous Authority member will be an Indigenous person and that they will be appointed on the basis of their high level of expertise regarding Indigenous matters relevant to Basin water resources. They will not be appointed to represent particular regions or organisations, but to represent the interests of Indigenous communities across the Basin.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be eligible to be appointed to, or to act in, the Indigenous member position, a person will need to meet the definition of <inline font-style="italic">Indigenous person</inline> contained in section 4 of the Water Act. Section 4 defines <inline font-style="italic">Indigenous person</inline> as a person who is a member of the Aboriginal race of Australia or a descendent of an Indigenous inhabitant of the Torres Strait Islands. The person will be appointed using the same appointment process that applies to the other part-time members of the Authority and will be subject to the same terms and conditions of employment. This includes remuneration and the requirement not to be a member of the governing body of a relevant interest group at the time they are appointed to the Authority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The appointment of an Indigenous person to the Indigenous Authority member position does not preclude another Indigenous person being appointed to a different position on the Authority.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The creation of the standing Indigenous Authority member position builds on the government's strong track record in engaging Indigenous people and communities in the management of Basin water resources. In 2016, a number of amendments were made to the <inline font-style="italic">Water Act 2007</inline> to improve Indigenous community engagement in relation to the Basin's water resources. The amendments also sought to better recognise the importance of water to the cultural, spiritual and social aspects of Indigenous communities.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Amendments that were made in 2016 included adding "Indigenous matters relevant to Basin water resources" as a field of expertise that may qualify a person for appointment to the Murray-Darling Basin Authority. The amendments also mandated that the Basin Community Committee, which reports on community concerns and issues around Basin Plan implementation, must include at least two Indigenous persons with expertise in Indigenous matters relevant to Basin water resources.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further amendments included that the preparation of water resource plans must have regard to social, spiritual and cultural matters relevant to Indigenous people. The Authority will only be able to recommend that the Minister accredit a water resource plan if this requirement is met. It was also clarified that one of the functions of the Murray-Darling Basin Authority is to engage with Indigenous communities on the use and management of Basin water resources.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">All of the amendments made in 2016 have been effective in increasing engagement with Indigenous communities in the Basin. Indigenous community groups, for example, are currently being consulted by state governments and the Authority as water resource plans are developed and assessed.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The government recognises that work remains to be done to improve Indigenous engagement in the Basin. This need for further progress has been identified, for example, in the recent Productivity Commission assessment report into the Basin Plan.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2018 the Government took further steps to ensure that Indigenous communities are able to participate in the economic and cultural life of the river system.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The government has committed $40 million over four years for the Murray-Darling Basin Aboriginal Water Entitlements Program. This Program is intended to support Basin Indigenous communities' investment in cultural and economic water entitlements, and to increase their involvement in water planning and management. This program is supported by amendments that were made in 2018 to the <inline font-style="italic">Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Act 2005</inline> to enable the Indigenous Land and Sea Corporation to purchase water, as well as land.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In 2018, the Authority was directed to report publicly on how Indigenous values and uses are considered in environmental water use. Indigenous involvement in that work must now be reported on annually by the Authority. The Authority is also currently working with New South Wales and Queensland to identify water that could be allocated to Indigenous communities through water resource plans.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Funding has been provided to support Basin Indigenous organisations for additional project officers in both the southern and northern Basin. This support will help these organisations to translate the findings of the National Cultural Flows Research Project into practical and effective ways forward. The National Cultural Flows Research Project, a project driven by and for Aboriginal people, established a national framework for cultural flows. The framework, released in 2018, provides the first guide and method for future planning, delivery, and assessment of cultural flows.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As part of the delivery of the northern Basin environmental works program local stakeholders, including Indigenous groups, will be consulted as part of the development and implementation of toolkit measures. Priority will be given to Indigenous and local suppliers in the delivery of those works.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Ultimately the Bill's amendments are important to ensure that an Indigenous voice is clearly represented amongst the Authority's members. The Australian Government is committed to continuing to improve engagement with Indigenous communities in the Murray-Darling Basin. This Bill is the next step in that process and is an important milestone in Australia's history, recognising the role of Indigenous Australians as the traditional custodians of the Murray-Darling Basin. The Government would like to thank all Basin Water Ministers for their cooperation in unanimously seeking to ensure an Indigenous person is a member of the Murray Darling Basin Authority.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>41</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r6351">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>41</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I just want to get some clarity on the finer details of this law and its implementation. If a person arranges a lawful, peaceful protest, so they put out a Facebook post or something that says they wish to arrange a protest at a particular place, and some of the participants splinter off and cause property damage or other ruckus, is the person who originally organised the peaceful protest likely to be held responsible?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This bill in no way impacts on Australians' lawful right to peaceful protest. What this bill does is ensure that those who would incite other Australians online onto farms or into saleyards, abattoirs, wood-processing facilities, aquaculture facilities et cetera to conduct criminal acts—harass, intimidate, steal, threaten farmers, damage livestock or cause biosecurity risks—will face up to five years jail as a result of this. It in no way impacts on Australians' right to peaceful protest. It deals with criminal activity.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry; I probably didn't articulate the proposition very well. I'm really just trying to get to a point where someone organises a peaceful protest and, at some stage during that peaceful protest, some people decide to go off and trespass and cause damage. Will the person who organised the peaceful protest be captured with an offence under this bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>No, there has to be an explicit intention to incite prior to the protest.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That leads to my next question. The bill requires an intention of inciting others. That must be established. What's the threshold for that? How would that normally be established?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The prosecution would actually have to prove that that was the case. That would be part of gathering evidence et cetera to present as part of the case.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Just to flesh that out a bit, does it require actual evidence in a Facebook post suggesting that the protest will in fact involve trespass? What's the threshold to get to the point where you consider that the person who's been charged actually has committed an offence?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>There would have to be evidence that they sought to incite. But I want to preface that by saying that every case will be different and it will be dealt with case by case. But there would have to be evidence that you sought to incite people to trespass—for instance, having a website where farming families' details were available publicly, talking about heading onto a poultry farm, a piggery, a beef feedlot et cetera at a given date and time et cetera to shut down this industry. That would be the sort of language and things that would have to be evidenced to prove inciting, but it would depend on each individual case.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If a peaceful protest were organised and someone at that protest then decided to incite someone—noting it doesn't involve a telecommunications service—I presume in that circumstance the act doesn't apply. But, if they were to text a few people on the scene, that would? I'm just trying to understand the difference.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:39</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think you raise a good point. It would depend on the circumstances. Obviously, as the federal government, we're looking at the carriage service as being the point of intersection with the behaviour because, as you know, trespass law per se is a state issue. It would depend on the circumstance, but that could possibly be the case when the text for illegal action is sent once the peaceful protest had been called. That could be considered.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Following on from those sorts of questions about whether or not an action is a criminal act, with the issue of trespass and other potential offences—such as forest protests—can you tell us in which states things like locking yourself to machinery or blocking trucks are considered criminal acts?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Each state and territory has a different arrangement around trespass—how it relates to private property and the like. You'd have to look at the trespass legislation in each jurisdiction. What this piece of legislation deals with is not how trespass law is enacted or dealt with at a jurisdictional level; that is way outside our constitutional remit. What it deals with is using a carriage service to incite people to criminal activity on farms, abattoirs and other agriculture facilities such as saleyards and the like.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That goes to the point. If you aren't able to tell us what is a criminal act in each state and whether the use of a carriage service is then going to come under the auspices of their specific legislation, then you actually can't tell us how this law is going to apply in different states. For example, if you have people protesting at a woodchip mill, what I want to know is whether it is an offence to then send somebody a text to say, 'Come and join this protest at the woodchip mill.'</para>
<para>That woodchip mill is processing—to use a polite term—part of the destruction of our precious forest that is on public land. These are forests that we need to be protecting for their wildlife, their water, their tourism value and their carbon stores and for the natural heritage of Australia. They are our public forests on our public land. What you are saying, Minister, is that this law would then impose outrageous penalties, if somebody is protesting about that at the woodchip mill where these logs are being sent off to.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I can't be clearer, and I've said it 100 times—actually, that's not true; I'm misleading the committee. I've probably said it 15 times this morning. Trespass is a state issue. The Attorney-General has already met with state and territory counterparts to start discussing how they can strengthen their trespass regimes to make sure that farmers, fishers and foresters can go about their lawful business without harassment, intimidation, theft, property damage et cetera, as we've discussed and as was laid out ad nauseam throughout the inquiry into this bill. What this piece of legislation before the committee goes to is incitement using a carriage service.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand that. Can you answer a simple question—let's go through it state-by-state. Given that there has been consultation with the state ministers, you must be able to tell us: is trespass a criminal act in Victoria?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:44</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. And I hope the state Labor government in that jurisdiction acts on the inquiry they're conducting right now to examine how they can strengthen trespass laws in my home state of Victoria because—as you know, and as I hope you'd be equally concerned about—the Gippy Goat Cafe incident highlighted the deficiencies within the system in Victoria. It was a lawful business. Activists targeted it over and over again. They went out of business. And the young person concerned—for wrecking a family's business and putting them out of business, as they were unable to go on, and they had a lot of mental health stress along the way—got fined a dollar. So I hope that the Victorian state government act on the inquiry they're conducting at the moment so that our home state of Victoria has strong trespass laws.</para>
<para>Progress reported.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>42</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="s1219">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>42</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Labor supports the Tertiary Education Quality and Standards Agency Amendment Bill 2019, but notes that the recommendations of the TEQSA review, to which this bill responds, were provided to the government three years ago. This is an unacceptable delay and again highlights this government's incompetent treatment of Australia's world-class higher education system. We commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank senators for their contributions to this debate and commend the bill to the Senate.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a second time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>42</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:46</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DUNIAM</name>
    <name.id>263418</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That this bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill read a third time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>43</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r6351">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Criminal Code Amendment (Agricultural Protection) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>In Committee</title>
            <page.no>43</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>After that short delay, we're back! Minister, let's go back to the things that would be covered under this act in my state of Victoria. I want to talk you through a scenario. Say there is logging occurring on public land—logging of our precious native forest, which is destroying our natural heritage, destroying threatened wildlife, destroying our water quality and quantity, destroying our carbon stores, destroying our forests. The logs from this logging operation are then transported to a chipmill or a pulp mill where they are going to be processed into woodchips. Protesters who are concerned about this logging operation feel that it is their right, and their civil responsibility in terms of protecting our native forests, to conduct a protest action at this wood processing facility—at this chipmill or pulp mill. Can you confirm for me, then, that it would be an offence under this legislation for any person or organisation to send out an email or a text message encouraging people to join this protest—that that would be caught under the provisions of this legislation?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, Senator Rice! Again—the emotive arguments of the Greens! Seventy thousand Australians—proud Australians, most of them in rural and regional Australia—work in the forestry industry. You continue to come in here and behave as if it is not a sustainable industry, with its management based on the best science, where we actually put aside resource for public enjoyment, for our flora and fauna to thrive and for our biodiversity outcomes to be met—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator McKim interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And, indeed, Senator McKim, we put aside resources to sequester carbon. That whole system exists to manage that resource, and 70,000 Australians and their families rely on mum or dad being a logger, like my dad used to be, being a truck driver, working in the woodchip processing plant or what have you. You come in here and say they're somehow not allowed to do that because someone feels that they need to stop that happening. Senator Rice's justification for somebody committing illegal acts was that they feel that this is not fair, despite it being based in science and having exceptional environmental and economic outcomes for the broader community. You say that if somebody feels that they need to stop that action happening they somehow have the right to go onto private property to commit criminal acts. I can tell you, Senator Rice, very clearly that, under this bill, if someone is inciting another Australian to go on private property to harass, intimidate or trespass then they will be captured.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RICE</name>
    <name.id>155410</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you for clarifying that, Minister. I note that 88 per cent of the wood produced in this country comes from plantations, and there is no disagreement in this place that everyone wants to see wood coming from those sustainably managed plantations, where the bulk of the jobs are and the bulk of the industry is occurring, go ahead. We are talking about our precious native forests, our old-growth forests, our forests that are home to threatened species such as Leadbeater's possums, greater gliders, long-footed potoroos and Eastern quolls—the species that we were cuddling out in the Senate courtyard earlier this week—that are being destroyed by logging operations.</para>
<para>When people decide that it is their responsibility to stand up for our heritage and our precious forests and they hold a protest action at the mill that is turning those forests into woodchips, that is going to be covered under this bill. That trespass action will not only be covered under state law. Yes, okay; if you're trespassing then there is law that says you cannot do that. When that goes before a court, what often happens is that the court will say, 'There was actually a reason why that trespass was occurring.' If it was a peaceful protest action then that court process would say, 'There were circumstances as to why these people in the community felt the need to be acting to protect our forests and to take protest action to protect our heritage.' But this law goes far beyond that. It criminalises just sharing information about that protest action. It criminalises asking people to come and attend that protest action, to stand up for the protection of their forests for themselves, for our community and for our future. That is what this legislation is doing.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I feel the need to respond. Senator, no, this legislation goes in no way towards stopping Australians' right to peaceful protest. What it does say is that if you want to get online, get your mates and say, 'Let's go break into this business, let's go harass this family, let's go steal this stock and let's go cause this biosecurity risk,' then not the trespasser but you, the person inciting it, will be prosecuted. Those who are actually committing the act of trespass, theft, vandalism, harassment et cetera will be prosecuted under state law. Those are the facts.</para>
<para>You stand in here and talk about old-growth forests. You're trying to lock up old-growth hardwood forests that my father planted in the 1960s—40 years ago. Mountain ash forests are planted through Victoria. They're the things that you are now claiming should be part of this lock-up process that the Greens are just so passionate about. Tell anyone that lives in those communities of Walhalla, Erica or anywhere that went through the bushfires in Victoria about that approach to land management. We know it doesn't work.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:54</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I have a slightly technical question going to the operation of the bill—and I hope you've got children, as I ask you this question!</para>
<para>Say I wrote a tweet that said, 'I don't like such and such happening on a farm and I think we should go and invade that farm,' and I tweeted it to my 1,000 followers. If one of those 1,000 followers then retweets the tweet, does the legislation cover the retweeter?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My advice is that it can't just be a flippant or offhand comment; it has to be a serious intention to incite people to criminal action, and that will be tested through the court and the gathering of evidence to present there.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>If I understand what you're saying, the person who builds the tweet and clearly has some intent to incite people to go onto a property is covered. When someone retweets that, in some sense they haven't really put in any effort; they've just hit a retweet button. Does that create an offence for the retweeter?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Obviously that would depend on the circumstances. My advice is that a retweet could be construed as flippant. But, again, it would depend on the circumstances. Sometimes Twitter account holders have things in their bios that say 'Retweet doesn't mean endorsement,' for instance. You'd have to consider all aspects of (a) the original tweet and (b) the retweet and the intent of the retweeter—and what evidence you had to making any claims around that—to determine how this would play out in a court. As you can see, it's going to be on a case-by-case basis. But I think we can be confident that the provisions within the act encompass serious intent to incite others to criminal activity, not flippant responses.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I was going to move to Instagram and then to Facebook and others, but obviously the same principles would apply. Just to give a circumstance: if I were to put a Facebook post up that detailed a bunch of concerns I might have and spelled out a bit of science and then at the bottom I put something that might incite someone to trespass on a farm, another Facebook user may well agree with the fundamentals of what has been put and share that post. Is that the sort of thing that wouldn't be included? Is that the intent of the government in these circumstances?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I said earlier, the test or the trigger is on the intention to incite to criminal activity. Talking about changes to farm practice et cetera wouldn't be captured at all.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So you could stand up in a court and say, 'I agreed with all of the stuff and I didn't really realise the bottom bit had an instruction to attend a farm and trespass,' and that would provide a proper defence?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:58</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The person that would be subject to this law isn't the person that rocks up; it's the person that constructed the Facebook post originally. We've had questions around whether a disclaimer on a website or on a post or a tweet would be sufficient to disprove intention. My advice is: whether the offences would apply to any specific scenario will depend on the circumstances. A disclaimer on a social media tweet or a website may be relevant, but it wouldn't be conclusive as to whether an offence had been committed. The key relevant factor would be the content of any communications transmitted over the internet or on the website.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I note that this bill can create a custodial sentence that is longer, in some circumstances, than what might happen in a state jurisdiction for the actual act of trespassing. Can you explain the reasoning behind that—that the inciting could result in a longer custodial term than the actual act of trespassing?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>12:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You raise really good questions. The reason we want a nationally consistent approach to incitement is that there needs to be one rule across the nation for the use of the internet and carriage services to incite this. The fact that our states deal with trespass and related issues differently is a problem, which is why it's up for discussion at the agriculture ministers' MINCO, and the Attorney-General has been in contact with his counterparts to discuss how we can have a much more consistent approach. We've applied it in this way because the fact is that, if somebody incites through social media, you can potentially have hundreds or thousands of criminals on your property within hours, destroying stock, destroying your livelihood and harassing your workers and your family, with no warning. That is the pervasiveness and the responsiveness of social media in this case. That is one of the reasons it has such a significant penalty ascribed to it. The person inciting—the keyboard warrior, if you like; so passionate about shutting down the livestock industry in this country, our fishers and our foresters—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Sterle</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Food production.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, food production; thank you, Senator Sterle—across the country with a click of the keyboard can have potentially thousands of people rocking up on people's private property. We want to take a strong stand against that. We don't think that's right. We think it's criminal activity and that farmers should be able to get on with producing clean, green food not just for us but for the world, without that level of harassment.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I did say that was my last question, but a supplementary flows from that. I presume, then, it's the intention of the government that the court would take into consideration if, for example, I were to incite someone to trespass via my Twitter account and four people turn up and trespass, that might be a shorter custodial sentence than if I managed to pull together 10,000 people who did the same thing.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That is a matter for the judiciary. Our job here today is to decide whether this should become the law of the land. This is a growing issue, despite the public expressing its concerns with how Aussie Farms and other extreme militant animal activists are targeting our farmers, their families and their workers. But I have severe concerns about their actual disregard for common decency, their flagrant flick of the hand about the law of the land. It is absolutely abhorrent that they think it's okay to go into a business and steal. You're not freeing the animals; you're stealing stock, someone's livelihood. Mr Delforce, who runs this Aussie Farms, is remaining defiant about the illegal activities underpinning his cause and that of organisations such as his. Again, their end goal is not about animal welfare; it is to end livestock production in this country. He said it was 'no secret' he believes various livestock industries 'don't have a right to exist anymore' because they're 'barbaric, archaic and so unjust'. He believes they're completely 'unnecessary'. Well, I don't. I stand with Australian farmers, their commitment to animal welfare standards and a bill that will ensure they can continue to uphold high animal welfare standards.</para>
<para>This bill in no way reduces the provisions around somebody taking issues of animal welfare to the appropriate authorities, but it does protect families, communities, our national economy—as this is a nearly $60 billion dollar industry—and hundreds of thousands of jobs out in regional communities now and into the future. I hope that answers your question, Senator Patrick. I commend the amendments.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a few questions. Did anybody involved in the drafting of this actually seek advice from either AGS or any external legal folk about the principle of needing to have certainty in all drafting, in particular when creating criminal offences? I'm not in charge of this bill, but I am flabbergasted at the lack of certainty. The minister hasn't been able to shed any clarification, simply saying it's a matter for the courts. Surely the scope of the sentence is a matter for the courts, not whether or not an offence has even been conducted? I want to know how on earth this bill has gotten this far and whether anyone responsible for it has actually sought some legal advice, because it seems to me to fly in the face of legal drafting when it comes to criminal liability.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:06</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Waters, of course the government has received advice from a variety of areas in the drafting of the bill. We've adopted that advice, and what you see before you is a bill which goes to protecting farmers from illegal activities.</para>
<para>I thought you would have actually supported wanting to ensure that our farmers, who do the right thing, aren't subjected to illegal acts of stealing, of trespass and of harassment of their kids. If any senator wanted to come in here and contribute to the debate, and hadn't heard the submissions to the Senate inquiry, which went to the very heart of the emotional and economic trauma that occurs when hundreds of people just rock up to your property, I would find it incredible that they could think that that's okay in a civil society. It's not, and we're taking a strong stand.</para>
<para>Senator Patrick's question actually went to how the scope of the sentence would go. This is a maximum of five years jail for people who incite others to do criminal activity. If you're going to incite criminal activity—and it's a high threshold, it has to be proved—then you are going to be subject to up to five years imprisonment. Where that scope of the five years ends up—obviously, as you know as a lawyer—will depend on the circumstances of the case and the judge involved.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thanks, Minister. I understand all that. My point was that you weren't clear, because apparently nobody knows whether a retweet is an incitement. There is a fundamental uncertainty in your mind, as the proposer of this legislation, about when you're going to criminalise activity. That is something that the drafters of legislation are meant to fix. That is not something for the courts to fix. So my next question is: did you seek advice on the likelihood of a challenge to the validity of these laws on the basis of the pervasive uncertainty that underpins them?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:08</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We have consulted widely, Senator, including legal advice on the drafting of bill and the amendments involved. You also know—because you are a lawyer—that what you're raising are hypothetical situations, and incitement and intention are well-prosecuted triggers and levels within the legal system. You know that. What we're setting up here today is a regime where, if you're going to go on and incite others to do illegal activities, you will be subject to imprisonment of up to five years as a criminal offence.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>So, if there are thousands of retweets, are you seriously telling me that you're going to ask your law enforcement agencies to spend their limited time—because the resourcing is limited, as is the personnel—prosecuting each and every person that retweets?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, again, I said flippant actions aren't considered intention under law, so it will depend on the circumstances and surrounding behaviours around any given retweet.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, is 'flippant' your term or is 'flippant' in the bill?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator, 'flippant' is my term.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to take you now to a different issue, although I look forward to the fact that the courts will, in my view, have quite a lot to say about the drafting here. I imagine that the government is exposing itself to legal challenge with regard to the extreme levels of uncertainty that surround this bill. But that's your problem; I don't think this bill should be proceeding at all. But you mentioned in the process of this drafting that the Attorney had been consulting with the states on trespass law. Did the scope of those discussions also cover whether or not farmers should have the right to say no to coal and coal seam gas companies entering their land for the purposes of production or exploration?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>With respect to this bill, which is about incitement to trespass, steal and damage property and harass individuals, the Attorney obviously consulted with his colleagues, yes. When we're consulting on this bill, that's what we consult on. That's the topic of those discussions. I'm sure the Attorney has many conversations with his counterparts around many other issues.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATERS</name>
    <name.id>192970</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, you said that the Attorney was consulting around the scope of trespass law in order to strengthen it. Why are those discussions confined to limiting that strengthening to an extremely narrow and rare cohort of folk? And why are they not discussing strengthening trespass laws so that farmers cannot be harassed and overrun by coal seam gas companies in particular and coalmining companies? We have had years of examples of precisely that happening to some famers on the Darling Downs, to the extent that one in particular, George Bender, took his own life as a direct result of the harassment that he was subjected to by a coal seam gas company. Why are you not talking about those issues? They're the real issues.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I won't debate with you, Senator, or your political party, what the real issues are for farmers, but I have advice from the Council of Attorneys-General's communique that attorneys-general discussed strengthening criminal trespass laws to protect agricultural premises. Participants agreed on the importance of addressing trespass on farms and agricultural premises, and undertook to consider options to strengthen trespass and related laws. Several jurisdictions have noted they've already acted.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to take a moment to place on the record exactly what the government is up to here. In an age when the very climate of this planet is breaking down around us, when over a million species are hurtling towards extinction, and when we are in the midst of a biodiversity crisis and a climate emergency, this government is now deliberately criminalising people who wish to mobilise protesters who want to protest against clear-felling native forest. They want to criminalise the work of environment groups who might wish to organise an on-the-ground blockade against a forestry operation that will ultimately strip-mine our native forests, destroy biodiversity and release massive amounts of carbon. Minister, if you can't hear or feel the social contract starting to crack and erode under your feet, you are simply not paying close enough attention.</para>
<para>The social contract is what underpins the institutions of our democracy. It is what gives effect to the public trust that is placed in parliaments, and governments, to make wise decisions for the common good. And it is actions like these, where you deliberately criminalise people who are acting for the common good, who are acting for generations as yet unborn, who are acting for voiceless animals—they can't speak for themselves—that erode the social contract. If you can't feel that happening, Minister, as I said, you are simply not paying close enough attention.</para>
<para>I'll make a prediction here. Over the next couple of decades, you are going to see mass civil disobedience in this country that will dwarf anything we have previously seen in Australia. You will see massive numbers of people taking to the streets, and you know what? They're not going to care what the law says, because they've got a higher purpose: to deliver a sustainable, livable planet for their children and their grandchildren. By enacting laws like this, you are committing a climate crime, you are committing crimes against humanity, and I hope you answer for them one day, Minister.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Duniam interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You can look around at your staff and have a cackle all you like; I don't care. I don't care, Minister. I want it on the record that I believe you to be a climate criminal and I hope you pay the price for it one day—and you, too, Senator Duniam, for what it's worth.</para>
<para>Minister, my question is about whether creators of games like <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> might find themselves in breach of this legislation. Now, I've read the explanatory memorandum, so I'm not asking you to read that back to the parliament. The explanatory memorandum is a matter of public record. I've read it closely. But it does in my view throw up some questions—because I'll put it on the record here, Minister, that I genuinely believe that, in your haste and your shoddy drafting of this legislation, you have created at least the possibility that the creators of games like <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> will be caught under the incitement provisions of this legislation. So, Minister, is it true that you believe that the inclusion of the element of 'recklessness' would inoculate the creators of games such as <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> against the provisions of this legislation?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, chasers of Pikachu are safe! If we pass the legislation, I can assure you, Senator McKim, they are absolutely safe. Firstly, there needs to be the intention to trespass. Secondly, there needs to be a desire to disrupt business. That goes to interruption of the business activity to cause economic loss, damage of property on agricultural land—as I understand it, if you're playing <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline>, you've just got to stand there and catch Pikachu; you're not seeking to damage agricultural land—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Sterle</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What the hell are you talking about?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm just answering the question, Senator Sterle—destruction of property, theft, obstruction of farming, intimidation of staff or the contamination of food products. That goes to the incitement, but then you also need to cause detriment to the business.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator McKim interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, that's my advice.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator McKim!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's my advice.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:19</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That was your advice. I think your advisers will now give you the advice, Minister, that you're wrong. I just want to be clear here. Firstly, this is about incitement to trespass. It's not about theft or damage or anything else; it's about incitement to trespass. I want you to explain quite clearly how it could be that, as you quite humorously put it, Pikachu is safe. It's not the Pokemon creatures I'm asking about; they're not real. It's a video game. It's augmented reality; it's not actually real. It's actually the people who are playing the game who are real, and, in the context of this legislation, it is actually the creators of the game who may incite trespass by placing one of the not-real Pokemon characters on private property such as a farm or a forestry operation. I want to be clear. In the past the creators of this game have done things like place these not-real Pokemon characters in Hells Angels headquarters. Children have actually chased these not-real characters into Hells Angels headquarters. There was a case in New Zealand where that happened. So these not-real characters that are in video games are placed at times on private property; I think we can all agree on that. I want you to explain very clearly why the creator of an augmented reality game like <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> which places a character on a farm—I'll just use a farm as an example, but there are a range of other things that could be captured—is not inciting a trespass.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It must be Thursday afternoon!</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I know who Jigglypuff and Charizard are, so I know they're not real. But, Senator, I gave you the answer. Just so that you know, if you open the bill to page 4, subdivision J, proposed section 474.46—'Using a carriage service for inciting trespass on agricultural land'—you've got to do the transmission over the carriage service:</para>
<quote><para class="block">(d) the offender is reckless as to whether:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) the trespass … could cause detriment to a primary production business that is being carried on on the agricultural land.</para></quote>
<para>So they would have to be not just heading onto a private property to capture Jigglypuff; it's actually to cause detriment to the agricultural productive capacity of the private property.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I just need to be clear about this. Firstly, the incitement needs to be done with the intent to incite another person to trespass, so that establishes the threshold for the incitement, which is intent. I'll just pause, Minister. It's fair enough that you take advice, but I would like you and your advisers to try to listen to the point I'm making here.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, it's the same point and it's going to be the same point.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It may or may not be, but you won't know till I've finished the question, will you? I understand that the threshold around the incitement is that there has to be an intention. That's in 474.46(1)(c): the transmission needs to be done with the intent of inciting another person to trespass. So we're agreed on that. Then in (d), which is the provision you've just quoted to me, the threshold is actually not intention; it's recklessness. Wouldn't it be the case that, if the creator of a game such as <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> placed a character in a farm, that would satisfy (1)(c)—in other words, that is an intentional incitement to trespass? I don't think there'd be any argument from you on that, because your argument is that (d) is the element which inoculates the makers of a game like <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> from the provisions. So the creator of a game has put a <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon G</inline><inline font-style="italic">O</inline> character on a piece of farmland, and that's an incitement to trespass of itself. However, if they have not considered, in the placement of that character on the farmland, whether the trespass could cause detriment, haven't they been reckless as to whether it could cause detriment?</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think the <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon G</inline><inline font-style="italic">O</inline> subscribers of the world will thank you for your detailed analysis here, Senator McKim, because you are right—in the first section of your question. However, under law, 'recklessness' is actually quite a high threshold. That means they have to also be aware of the substantial risk that detriment would occur. If they hadn't, as you said, considered the risk or considered the impact that the trespass would ensure, then they wouldn't be captured by the act.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think we've narrowed this discussion down to the legal meaning of the word 'reckless'. So wouldn't it be reckless to be careless or to not care whether or not any trespass could cause detriment? Wouldn't that be reckless?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think you're relying on the colloquial definition of 'reckless'. It is quite a high threshold. You couldn't just wander in and accidentally harm an animal or with just your mere presence intimidate or harass someone. There must be intent. <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon G</inline><inline font-style="italic">O</inline>, as a company that's inciting, does not then have the additional issue of negative behaviour whilst on farm or on property. The thresholds for recklessness are high. You need to be aware of what you're doing and be there with intent to not be reckless. Accidentally causing harm would mean you weren't covered by the bill. Accidentally wandering onto a property to catch Pikachu, and something occurring as a result of that, wouldn't be captured by the bill.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm well aware of that. This bill actually doesn't deal with the person who's trespassing; it deals with the use of a carriage service to incite a trespass. I thought we all understood that—and I hope you do. What I'm saying to you, Minister—and you've gone back in your answer to inciting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKenzie</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para><inline font-style="italic">Pokemon G</inline> <inline font-style="italic">O</inline>, as the inciting body in your example, doesn't actually then expect that its gamers are going to be conducting criminal activity on farm or detriment to the business—as I read out earlier, the types of behaviours that would lead to a loss of economic benefit, the harassment of workers, damage of property et cetera. So first you have to trespass and then you have to cause detriment to the business.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, understood, Minister. I do understand that. Thank you for your clarification. Either you or one of your colleagues, in casting aspersions on the Australian Greens earlier, posed the question of whether any of us have ever worked on a farm. Well, I can tell you yes, I've worked on a farm, and I want to tell you a quick story, because it's very relevant to the discussion we're having now.</para>
<para>I worked as a shepherd in Scotland on a farm that had probably 2½ thousand ewes, and I was responsible, under the owner of the farm, for the welfare of those sheep. It was during lambing season, which is very cold in the Scottish Highlands, I can assure you. I learnt a really good lesson from the farmer one day. I wasn't brought up on a farm; I was brought up in suburban Hobart. I used to have this habit of climbing farm gates rather than opening them. I remember the farmer giving me a well-deserved lecture—I was quite young at the time, probably 19 or 20 years old—about not climbing farm gates, because it damages the hinges that the gates are hung on. He only had to tell me once. From then on, and ever since, I've opened farm gates instead of climbing over them. That's relevant, Minister, because it is possible that climbing a farm gate could—to use the words of your bill—'cause detriment to a primary production business', because it would damage the hinge and the farmer would have to fork out for a new hinge.</para>
<para>What I'm saying to you, Minister, is: doesn't the <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> company at least potentially fall foul of this act? Firstly, it has transmitted information on a carriage service with the intention of inciting another person to trespass—I think we've agreed that those provisions, without (d), would catch the company—but then it's also reckless as to whether the person who is committing the trespass could cause detriment to a primary production business, even as simply as by climbing a farm gate on their way onto the property. So when you say Pikachu is safe, Minister, I think the more correct analysis here is: Pikachu is in danger.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As we outline in the explanatory memorandum, the creative Pokemon needs to be aware there was a substantial risk that trespass could cause detriment to a primary production business on agricultural land. As you know, Senator McKim, the damage of a couple of hinges does not constitute significant economic impairment to an agricultural business, so I reject your example. I've tried to walk through the trespass piece and the absolute need around incitement, and I'm pretty confident that <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline>, as a company, does not have an expectation that its gamers will be damaging property out there.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>You are so just making stuff up now, Minister! I think it's really important that you understand that the courts read these exchanges when they're trying to determine the will of the parliament. These are really important exchanges. Please don't make this stuff up. It doesn't talk about significant economic impairment in this section, Minister. It actually talks about causing detriment. It doesn't mention significant economic impairment, so your argument there is wrong. And, again, it's not about whether the company—in this case I believe it's Nintendo, but whoever creates the <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> game—thinks that there might be a detriment to a primary production business; what matters is simply whether or not it was reckless as to whether that might occur.</para>
<para>I'm telling you I don't think you've set the bar in a good place. I don't think you've responded to this issue well enough, and I'm putting on the record that I think it's entirely possible that, if someone chases a Pikachu which has been placed on a private farm and, in chasing that Pikachu, climbs the farm gate and damages a hinge, Nintendo will be caught. I'm standing up for the rights of gamers here, and I'm standing up for the rights of companies that create games like <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline>. In your attempts to criminalise entirely reasonable behaviour that is for the common good—that is designed to address the climate emergency, animal welfare and the biodiversity crisis, because this is about protecting nature, protecting diversity, encouraging strong action on climate change and protecting the carbon that's embedded in our beautiful, magnificent native forests—and criminalise people who are trying to stand up for our children and our future generations, you've cast your net too widely. You have also picked up in your draconian dragnet companies who create video games.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly the DPP will have to decide whether any future prosecution is going to be in the public interest. That's the threshold question. Given your comments that the court should read these proceedings—poor things!—for how they're actually going to consider decisions around this legislation in the future, let me make it very clear to any future judge: Charizard, Pikachu and Jigglypuff are safe from this bill and the amendment. It is not intended to capture <inline font-style="italic">Pokemon GO</inline> participants and gamers. What it is intended to capture are those who wilfully, militantly and extremely target our farmers, fishers and foresters, their families, their workers and their livestock, and those who seek to disrupt those people's right to farm in this country.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKIM</name>
    <name.id>JKM</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In your response, you referenced the fact that—I think you said—the DPP needs to consider whether or not a prosecution is in the public interest. I'll just remind you that Mr Bernard Collaery is currently being prosecuted on the recommendation of the Commonwealth DPP. That is an outrageous abuse of powers. It is clearly not in the public interest that Mr Collaery be prosecuted, because that prosecution has an absolutely chilling effect on people who may wish to blow the whistle. There was undoubtedly criminal activity by some people who were inside Australia's intelligence apparatus at the time. They made the decision to bug the East Timorese government's private discussions when we were negotiating a treaty with East Timor—one that involved Alexander Downer, who then rolled out the door into a cushy consultancy with Woodside Petroleum. Funnily enough, Woodside was the corporation that actually stood to financially benefit the most from the illegal spying that was conducted on our near neighbour—and should-be very close friend—Timor-Leste. So please don't offer to me the public interest test that the DPP is supposed to go through before a prosecution is mounted because, clearly, either that test is broken or the way the DPP applies it is broken. I offer you exhibit A: the prosecution and the charging of Mr Bernard Collaery and Witness K. That offers me no comfort at all. I can't believe I have to keep telling you this, Minister: it's not the Pokemon characters I'm worried about; they're not real. What I am worried about are the creators of the game. They are the people who I believe fall foul of this legislation, and nothing that you have said has offered me comfort.</para>
<para>Can I ask: if a group which organises fishing trips for its members arranges online to meet at a certain site that happens to be on private land and then they take a few fish out of a creek or a dam on private land, do you think they might fall foul of this legislation?</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that amendment (1) on sheet QL133 be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The committee divided. [13:44]<br />(The Temporary Chair—Senator Brockman)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>47</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>8</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The TEMPORARY CHAIR</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The question now is that government amendments (2) to (5) on sheet QL133 be agreed to.</para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill, as amended, agreed to.</para>
<para>Bill reported with amendments; report adopted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Third Reading</title>
            <page.no>50</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the bill be now read a third time.</para></quote>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>30484</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the bill be now read a third time.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
            <division.header>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [13:50]<br />(The Acting Deputy President—Senator Brockman)</p>
              </body>
            </division.header>
            <division.data>
              <ayes>
                <num.votes>47</num.votes>
                <title>AYES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Abetz, E</name>
                  <name>Antic, A</name>
                  <name>Askew, W</name>
                  <name>Ayres, T</name>
                  <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                  <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                  <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                  <name>Brockman, S</name>
                  <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                  <name>Chandler, C</name>
                  <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                  <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                  <name>Cormann, M</name>
                  <name>Davey, P</name>
                  <name>Dodson, P</name>
                  <name>Duniam, J</name>
                  <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                  <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                  <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                  <name>Green, N</name>
                  <name>Hanson, P</name>
                  <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                  <name>Hughes, H</name>
                  <name>Hume, J</name>
                  <name>Lambie, J</name>
                  <name>McCarthy, M</name>
                  <name>McDonald, S</name>
                  <name>McGrath, J (teller)</name>
                  <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                  <name>McMahon, S</name>
                  <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                  <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                  <name>Paterson, J</name>
                  <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                  <name>Polley, H</name>
                  <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                  <name>Rennick, G</name>
                  <name>Roberts, M</name>
                  <name>Ruston, A</name>
                  <name>Scarr, P</name>
                  <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                  <name>Smith, DA</name>
                  <name>Smith, M</name>
                  <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                  <name>Van, D</name>
                  <name>Walsh, J</name>
                  <name>Watt, M</name>
                </names>
              </ayes>
              <noes>
                <num.votes>8</num.votes>
                <title>NOES</title>
                <names>
                  <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                  <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                  <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                  <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                  <name>Siewert, R (teller)</name>
                  <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                  <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                  <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                </names>
              </noes>
              <pairs>
                <num.votes>0</num.votes>
                <title>PAIRS</title>
                <names></names>
              </pairs>
            </division.data>
            <division.result>
              <body>
                <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question agreed to.<br />Bill read a third time.</p>
              </body>
            </division.result>
          </division></subdebate.2></subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>51</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <a type="Bill" href="r6363">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>51</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>13:53</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator DODSON</name>
    <name.id>SR5</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak in relation to the Social Services Legislation Amendment (Overseas Welfare Recipients Integrity Program) Bill 2019. Labor supports this bill. It is important that social security is available to people when they need it, but also that we ensure the integrity of our payments scheme. This is critical for public confidence.</para>
<para>This bill will require Australian social security recipients who are over 80 years of age and who have resided overseas for more than two years to provide a proof-of-life certificate. A new certificate will be required every two years. Once contacted by Centrelink, a person will have 13 weeks to provide a proof-of-life certificate certified by an authorised person. Details will be finalised in a subordinate legislation, but the explanatory memorandum states that authorised certifiers will include judges, magistrates, medical doctors and staff at an Australian embassy, consulate or high commission. If a proof-of-life certificate is not received by Centrelink within the required 13 weeks, the person's payments will be suspended for the following 13 weeks. If a certificate is not provided within the suspended period or if the person does not re-enter Australia, the payment will be cancelled. However, if at any time after the payment is suspended or cancelled a person provides a proof-of-life certificate to Centrelink, their payment will recommence with full back pay.</para>
<para>Around 96,000 people who receive Australian social security payments—usually the age pension—live overseas permanently. The age pension, disability support pension, widow B pension, wife pension and carer pension can be paid to people who live permanently overseas when either the person's payments have unlimited portability under the Social Security Act or the payment is made under one of Australia's international social security agreements.</para>
<para>Currently, payments continue until a person's death is reported to Centrelink by family or friends. The death rate for age pensioners living overseas is currently significantly lower than for those living in Australia, indicating that Centrelink is not being notified of deaths in a timely manner in all cases. It is, of course, possible that this happens in many cases because friends and family simply do not realise they need to tell Centrelink and might assume that payments are stopped automatically. But, even when a person lives overseas, payments do not necessarily stop automatically. Proof-of-life certificates are required by several European countries with portable social security.</para>
<para>Labor is very concerned that the government runs a very high risk of stuffing up the implementation of these changes, just as they stuffed up the robo-debt, and just as they have run down Centrelink services to the point where pensioners are waiting months to get pensions. The last thing we want to see is a pensioner having their payments cut off because Centrelink does not contact them properly or takes too long processing their certificate when it is returned. If someone has questions, they should not be left waiting on the telephone for hours. It is absolutely critical that the government has the right system and resources in place to make this work, and that local certifying arrangements are not impossibly onerous for older Australians living overseas. We know this government's record when it comes to its treatment of pensioners and older Australians. We've heard stories of pensioners waiting for hours on the phone just to speak to someone at Centrelink. We've heard stories of pensioners waiting for months to have their applications and payments processed. The reality is: this government's record on its treatment of pensioners has been absolutely atrocious.</para>
<para>Cutting pensions is in the Liberal DNA. They have tried to cut the pensions and increase the pension age to 70 in every budget, including the three budgets where the current Prime Minister had the job of Treasurer. In the 2014 budget, they tried to cut pension indexation—a cut that would have meant that pensioners would have been forced to live on $80 a week less within 10 years. This unfair cut would have ripped $23 billion from the pockets of pensioners in Australia. In the 2014 budget they cut $1 billion from pensioner concessions, support designed to help pensioners with the cost of living. In the 2014 budget they axed the $900 seniors supplement to self-funded retirees holding a Commonwealth seniors health card. In the 2014 budget, the Liberals tried to reset the thresholds for deeming rates, a cut that would have seen 500,000 part-pensioners made worse off. In 2015 the Liberals did a deal with the Greens to cut the pensions of around 370,000 pensioners by as much as $12,000 a year by changing the pension assets test. In 2016 they tried to cut the pension of around 190,000 pensioners as part of a plan to limit overseas travel for pensioners to six weeks. In the 2016 budget they also tried to cut the pension of over 1.5 million Australians by scrapping the energy supplement for new pensioners. The government's own figures show that this would have left over 563,000 Australians who are currently receiving a pension or allowance worse off. Over 10 years, in excess of 1.5 million pensioners would have been worse off. On top of this, they spent five years trying to increase the pension age to 70 and it took five consecutive cuts before they even adjusted the deeming rates. The Liberals have cuts to the pension in the budget.</para>
<para>Debate interrupted.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>MINISTERIAL ARRANGEMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>by leave—I advise the Senate that Senator Birmingham will be absent from question time today due to ministerial business overseas. In Senator Birmingham’s absence, Senator Payne will represent the Minister for Trade, Tourism and Investment and the Assistant Trade and Investment Minister; Senator McKenzie will represent the Minister for Education; and Senator Canavan will represent the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction and the Minister for the Environment.</para>
</speech>
</debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>52</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>52</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. In an article in today's <inline font-style="italic">Herald Sun</inline> entitled, 'Liberals told Liu was bad idea', it has been reported that the Liberal Party was warned by intelligence agencies against preselecting Ms Liu for the seat of Chisholm prior to this year's federal election. Did the Prime Minister receive any advice about the current member for Chisholm from government agencies before the 18 May election?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Wong for that question. Obviously preselection matters for all parties are matters for party organisations. I'm not aware of any such advice having been received, but, in an abundance of caution and to make sure that I'm 100 per cent accurate, I'll take that question on notice and provide an answer.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the Prime Minister or his office sought any advice from government agencies today following the publication of this story? And if not, why not?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:01</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I think that that is a rather irresponsible question. I think that Senator Wong well knows—she's senior enough in this occupation to know—that no government ever comments on the advice that—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The point of order is on direct relevance. This is a serious matter. The question does actually not go to the content of the advice; it goes to whether the Prime Minister considered there are public reports so serious that he sought advice. I simply asked: has he sought advice? I didn't ask what the advice was.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I understand, Senator Wong. On the point of order, the minister has been speaking for 20 seconds. I'll allow him to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm, as he has indicated publicly. This is nothing but an attempt at a Labor smear. The double standard is quite unbelievable. If you look at the Labor candidate for Chisholm in that same election, she was a member and an honorary chairwoman of the same organisation. She equally gave advice that she wasn't aware—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Cormann! Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I think it really is cowardly to smear somebody who's not even in the parliament. Mr President, this goes to direct relevance and it goes to imputations as well. There are serious national security questions raised by someone on the front page of the paper. You ought to respond—not smear someone who is not here to defend herself.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order, Senator Cormann, Senator Wong has reminded you of the nature of her question. In this case, I believe the appropriate aspect of the supplementary relates to the specific nature of the question rather than other people.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I completely reject the proposition that Senator Wong has just made. There are not serious national security issues at stake in relation to the member for Chisholm. This is a clumsy interview of a new backbencher who happens to be an Australian of Chinese descent, the same as the Labor candidate in Chisholm was an Australian of Chinese descent— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask a supplementary question: has anyone in this government received any warnings in relation to Ms Liu's suitability to sit as a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That is a disgraceful question. The member for Chisholm is absolutely suitable to be a member of this parliament, and she was elected as such by the people of Chisholm where she was facing a Labor candidate who equally was an Australian of Chinese descent and who was a member of similar organisations. Indeed, none other than the then shadow Treasurer accepted hospitality from the organisation that is supposedly now this major national security risk. This is a transparent Labor smear against a Liberal member of parliament in an electorate that—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask the minister to return to the question—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Abetz</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>No.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Abetz, I would have thought you would have taken this seriously.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Abetz</name>
    <name.id>N26</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What's the point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The point of order is on direct relevance. The front page of the papers assert that there were intelligence warnings about a person. How is it a smear to ask what you have done about that?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, I believe, with respect, that that is a debating point. I believe the minister is being directly relevant. I cannot instruct him how to answer a question nor on the content of it.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We in this business all know how things get into newspapers. Let me just say again what I said before: the Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm, as the people of Chisholm expressed their confidence in the member for Chisholm at the last election. All this is about is still the seven stages of grief that the Labor Party are going through after the last election. They can't accept the fact that they lost the election and that they lost the election in Chisholm too.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would like to make a brief statement to the chamber. The statement I'm about to make is not a reflection on the previous question, but I'm going to take this opportunity to remind senators of two elements in the standing orders. Standing order 73 says, 'Questions shall not contain imputations.' Standing order 1933 includes the following phrase:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… all imputations of improper motives and all personal reflections on those Houses—</para></quote>
<para>that includes the other house of this parliament—</para>
<quote><para class="block">members or officers shall be considered highly disorderly.</para></quote>
<para>So, while I'm not making an observation about the previous question, I would like the senators to keep that in mind when asking questions about any matter that may involve an imputation or improper reflection upon a member of another place.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And answering—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That is quite right—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you. If the standing orders—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That implies the answer—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The imputation was in the answer, with respect.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not making an observation on either that question or that answer. I am just providing a pre-emptive warning to the Senate that the standing orders are very strict when it comes to reflections or imputations on members of either house. We have let the issue of imputation slip a little more generally, but on that issue I think it needs to be applied strictly. It can be avoided through the careful wording of questions and answers.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Iran</title>
          <page.no>54</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Payne. Can the minister please update the Senate on the matter of Australians who are detained in Iran?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:07</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Fawcett for his question. I can advise the Senate—and there's been media reporting on this matter—that three Australians are being held in prison in Iran. This is a matter of deep concern to the government, to me personally as foreign minister and, I note, to the people of Australia. There are two separate cases. One involves an Australian woman who has been detained for a number of months. The second concerns a young couple who have been detained now for a number of weeks.</para>
<para>Since they were detained, the Australian government has been pressing the Iranian government for their release. I have communicated with my Iranian counterpart, Foreign Minister Zarif, many times about these cases, including through face-to-face meetings. We met as recently as last week. I will maintain my practice of many years by keeping the contents of my discussions with Foreign Minister Zarif private, but I will say that a central topic of our meetings has been the three Australians. The families of two of the detained Australians have released a statement saying they hope to see their loved ones safely home as soon as possible. The families have no further comment at this time and ask that the media respect their privacy. I know I join others in this place in saying that we, too, hope for a speedy return for these Australians from Iran.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Fawcett, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, could you update the Senate on what the Australian government is doing to support these three Australians and their families?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:09</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to acknowledge those officials who have been working very hard with me behind the scenes to secure the release of these three Australians. The government have been making efforts to ensure they are treated fairly, humanely and in accordance with international norms. We also continue to provide consular assistance to the three Australians' families, with whom we have maintained regular contact.</para>
<para>On the basis of ongoing discussions, I continue to believe that the best chance of a successful outcome for these three Australians is with Iran, through diplomatic channels, and not through the media. We will always act in the best interest of the Australians and their families.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Fawcett, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FAWCETT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Could the minister update the Senate on any other aspect of these cases?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>DFAT officials have had several meetings with the Iranian ambassador in Canberra. Our embassy in Tehran has made repeated representations to very senior Iranians officials in Tehran. Given these conversations and the timing of the arrests, I can say these arrests do not relate to broader issues. We have no reason to think that these arrests are connected to international concerns over Iran's nuclear program, United Nations sanctions or sanctions enforcement, or maritime security and the safety of civilian shipping.</para>
<para>I would finally like to remind Australians of the importance of consulting the DFAT smartraveller website. DFAT's travel advice for Iran is 'reconsider your need to travel'. The highest level, 'do not travel', applies in some parts of the country.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>55</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. I refer to reports in today's <inline font-style="italic">Herald Sun</inline> that the Liberal Party was warned against preselecting Ms Liu for the seat of Chisholm. When the Prime Minister proclaimed, 'How good is Gladys Liu?' at her campaign launch, was he aware of any concerns regarding Ms Liu's suitability to sit as a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I completely reject the premise of the question. The Prime Minister has full confidence in the suitability of the member for Chisholm to sit in parliament.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Keneally, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>When the Prime Minister and Ms Liu raised their hands together following her first speech, was he aware of any concerns regarding Ms Liu's suitability to sit as a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:12</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Ms Liu, the member for Chisholm, is an absolutely outstanding individual. She is a great Australia—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The point of order is direct relevance. No-one asked Senator Cormann to give a character reference in relation to the member for Chisholm. In fact, we didn't put that to him. We asked a very specific question, which was about whether or not the Prime Minister, at the time Senator Keneally referenced, was aware of any concerns regarding the member for Chisholm's suitability. It is a very specific question.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If he answered it, then say no.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>If I could rule—the minister has been speaking for eight seconds and I don't believe he completed a sentence. I will listen carefully to his answer. Senator Cormann.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I have already indicated in my answer to the primary question, the Prime Minister does not have any concerns about Ms Liu's suitability to be a member of the parliament. Indeed, Ms Liu is an outstanding Australian. She came here as a migrant and has done exceptionally well. She has worked as a speech pathologist in the Victorian department of education and early childhood. She opened up her own restaurant and worked in that small business. She was president of the Box Hill Chess Club. She was special adviser to the Victorian Premier on Chinese affairs. She was head of development and corporate social responsibility adviser for Canaan Lawyers. She came to Australia as a migrant. She has worked hard. She's done her best. She put herself forward for consideration by the people of Chisholm, and she won the election. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Keneally, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:13</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Media reports indicate that Ms Liu's office is forwarding all media inquiries to the Prime Minister's office and that Ms Liu's statement was drafted by the Prime Minister's office. Are these reports correct?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:14</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Ms Liu issued a statement yesterday in her name. That's her statement. It's on the public record. This is the Labor Party pursuing a smear against a recently elected member of parliament just because they are still going through the seven stages of grief at not having won a seat they thought they already had in their pocket. Do you think the Labor Party would be asking the same questions if the Labor candidate in Chisholm had won that election, who was a member of the state organisations—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Keneally, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Keneally</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It is on direct relevance. The question was very specific, asking the minister if the reports in the media today are correct—that Ms Liu's office is forwarding all media inquiries to the Prime Minister's office and that Ms Liu's statement was drafted by the Prime Minister's office.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order about direct relevance, I said earlier—and the minister did not breach this—that observations about other people were not in order with specific questions. The question did reference the statement. I heard the minister talking about the statement; I believe that is relevant. I can't instruct him how to answer the question. And I might be honest and say a glancing statement that is political in an answer would not be foreign to this particular chamber. But I'm listening very carefully to his answer. I believe he was talking about the statement, and that is directly relevant.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I have indicated, the member for Chisholm's issued statement is on the public record, but I make the broader point that the only reason the Labor Party is pursuing this smear—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question went to whether or not the reports that Ms Liu's office were forwarding all media inquiries to the PMO and that her statement was drafted by the PMO were correct. That was the only question asked. I would say to you, Mr President, that is more than 'glancing'. The minister has refused to even touch the question as to whether the reports that the PMO drafted the statement and was dealing with media inquiries are correct.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You've reminded the minister of the question, Senator Wong. I cannot instruct him how to answer a question. He is required to be directly relevant. And, as I've said before, a glancing comment might be in order, but it is not appropriate to talk about others when the question is so specific.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I've said several times now, there's a statement that was issued by the member for Chisholm—</para>
<para>Opposition senators: Who wrote it?</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>under her authority, her name. It is her statement, presenting her story, and if the Labor Party actually took— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>56</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Ruston, the Minister for Families and Social Services. In an article in Tuesday's <inline font-style="italic">Sydney Morning Herald</inline>, Toby Hall, Chief Executive of St Vincent's Health Australia, wrote, of the government's proposal to drug test income support recipients:</para>
<quote><para class="block">There is not one shred of evidence—here or overseas—that shows compulsory drug testing works to help someone on a path to beating their drug problem in the long term.</para></quote>
<para>He went on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… this policy would be counter-productive because it stigmatises people. We know stigmatisation is one of the biggest barriers to people asking for help. Any increase in stigma and anxiety for people with substance-use disorders will exacerbate their addiction rather than help them.</para></quote>
<para>Despite unanimous opposition from the health and addiction sector, the government once again has introduced legislation to drug-test income support recipients. Minister, what makes the government think they know better than the experts; and why in Australia would it be any different from overseas failed experiences of drug testing?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:18</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Siewert for her question, and acknowledge her ongoing and enduring interest in speaking on behalf of more vulnerable Australians.</para>
<para>I say right from the outset here that the Morrison government is absolutely committed to supporting people into a position where they're job ready, and part of that process is being able to identify the barriers that they face in being able to get a job. One of the more significant barriers, we know, that people who are unemployed face in being able to get themselves into a job is drug addiction or substance abuse. We know from statistics that somebody who is unemployed is more than three times more likely to have an addiction to ice. We know that people who are unemployed are more likely to smoke cannabis than people who are employed. But what we're seeking to do here by this trial, should the legislation be successful in passing this place, is to identify people who have a drug or substance abuse problem. If they fail on the first count to pass a drug test, we would seek to restrict or quarantine an amount of their payment so that they could only access—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Siewert, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Siewert</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>While I appreciate the information the minister's providing, I have heard it before. I asked a very specific question: what makes the government think that they know more than the experts who are saying this doesn't work?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, you restated the question at the end of a longer question that had a substantial preamble and various facts included. The minister is being directly relevant if she speaks to those as well. I cannot instruct a minister how to answer the question. I call the minister to continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What I would stress here is that this is a trial. The reason we have trials is so that we can gather a body of evidence so that we can make more-informed decisions. This government is absolutely committed to finding new and innovative ways by which we can assist people who are unemployed to break down their barriers to getting into work. This particular trial is exactly that; it is a trial, and it is intended for us to be able to gather that body of evidence so that we can put new programs in place that are innovative and responsive to the conditions and the barriers that individuals find in getting into work. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>A Monash University study on the health status of Newstart recipients that was released earlier this week shows that nearly half of Newstart recipients report having mental or behavioural problems. How does drug testing help people with mental health issues when it is linked to increased stigma?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:21</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Siewert for her follow-up question. As I said in my response to the primary question, the absolute core reason and motivation behind the Morrison government's seeking to ask this place to give us the mandate to go out and undertake a very limited amount of drug testing on new people who are coming onto Newstart is so that we can identify whether this drug addiction or substance abuse is actually the barrier that is preventing them from getting into work. If it turns out that they do have a substance issue, we will then have the opportunity to provide them with the kinds of support services, facilities and treatments that will enable them to address their drug or substance abuse issue. This is about helping Australians, because we know that one of the most important barriers that we can break down for people who are looking for work is drug addiction. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Siewert, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SIEWERT</name>
    <name.id>e5z</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Isn't this false debate around drug testing income-support recipients really just about diverting attention away from the fact that the Newstart allowance needs to be raised?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you very much for the question, Senator Siewert. This is not new. The concept of drug testing for Newstart recipients to identify whether this is a barrier to their employment has been around for some time. I think it was first introduced into this place nearly three years ago, and it has subsequently been introduced again. So we have already had quite a long period of time in which this government has had this issue on the table as one of its responses, in a suite of measures that we want to put in place to assist Australians who find themselves without a job, to break down those barriers so that they can get into a job. So, Senator Siewert, I can absolutely, categorically state to you that the reason, the motivation, for the Morrison government to seek to convince this place of the benefits and the values of this trial is to be able to assist people who find themselves with a barrier to work caused by drug addiction to get over that barrier so that they can get a job. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KITCHING</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Foreign Affairs, Senator Payne. Yesterday in question time the minister refused to assure the Senate that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to be a member of the Australian parliament. Why?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:23</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>That's absolutely a misrepresentation of my position. The suggestion that the member for Chisholm is not a fit and proper person is insulting. It is the case that she's an active member of her local community, and that she works closely with many groups, including from across the Chinese-Australian community. In her statement yesterday, which is on the public record—and I did read part of it to the Senate yesterday—she was clear and open about her previous associations that have been the subject of media inquiries, associations that she no longer holds. She has proactively disassociated herself from various groups that have appointed her to honorary roles without her knowledge or consent, as is often the practice with Chinese associations. The member for Chisholm is a proud Australian. She's passionately committed to serving the people of Chisholm, and any suggestion to the contrary is deeply offensive.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Kitching, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KITCHING</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the minister sought information from relevant agencies or from other ministers or their offices to assure herself of Ms Liu's fitness to be a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:24</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm not going to comment on my engagement on intelligence matters and I'm not going to comment on my private conversations with colleagues.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Kitching, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KITCHING</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Will the minister now unequivocally assure the Senate that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to be a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:25</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I have said that twice now. I am not sure quite what it is that Senator Kitching seeks to imply. If Senator Kitching and those opposite are intending to advance an alternative proposition, then they should actually say it; if they are not, then they should stop endeavouring to smear a member of the House of Representatives. If they are uncomfortable about their own associations, historically, with similar organisations, or if they are uncomfortable about evidence that comes up in the Independent Commission Against Corruption in New South Wales, which I have seen week in and week out as a New South Wales senator, that is not my problem.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Payne! Senator Kitching, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Kitching</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mine is on relevance but also on misleading the chamber. I'm not sure that Senator Payne actually has said that Ms Liu, the member for Chisholm, is a fit and proper person, yet Senator Payne at the beginning of her answer to the second supplementary—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll ask you to come to your point on relevance. Claims like the one you're making now are debating points that aren't appropriate for points of order. You were going to make a point about direct relevance.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Kitching</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On relevance: I have asked if she is a fit and proper person and if the minister is able to give that assurance.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I will make a couple of observations at this point. We do need to be careful about asking ministers when it is not directly their portfolio responsibility or agency responsibility, nor is it necessarily in the authority of the minister to determine someone's eligibility or their fit-and-proper status, other than in a vernacular sense, to sit in the parliament. I'll allow the minister to continue to answer the question, draw her to the question and remind people of my previous ruling about commenting on other people.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have completed my answer.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Water</title>
          <page.no>58</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia, my question is to Senator McKenzie, representing the Minister for Water Resources. Mr Littleproud has announced that the government will spend in excess of $1 billion on directing a further 450 gigalitres of so-called environmental flows into the Murray Darling Basin, known as sustainable diversion adjustment mechanism. This is water that would have otherwise been retained for agriculture or for groundwater replenishment. The Australian National Audit Office are currently conducting an inquiry into the procurement of strategic water entitlements, with their report due in December. Will the minister pause the SDL program until the audit report is made available and any recommendations are reflected in an updated Murray-Darling Basin Plan?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:27</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Roberts, for your question and your ongoing interest in ensuring that the Murray-Darling Basin Plan rollout meets the needs of irrigators, the environment and the communities contained within the basin. As Minister Littleproud has made very clear, our government continues to work with state governments to roll out the plan in a way that least impacts on the ongoing financial viability of our agriculture sector and the communities that service that sector. And they're going through a very tough time. In your home state, sections of the Murray-Darling Basin proper have been in drought for upwards of six years. Right throughout the basin in New South Wales, again, drought is biting hard. It is difficult to have enough flows for high-security and low-security water entitlement holders when there is not enough water in the basin to go around.</para>
<para>To that end we have been able to negotiate, with Minister Littleproud securing agreement from state governments, a socioeconomic detriment test before any further water is to be removed from basin communities. That actually ensures there can be no further negative social outcomes or economic outcomes for these basin communities before more water is taken out. That is incredibly important because these communities are doing it tough at the moment, and we need to ensure that their ongoing viability is secured not just for those towns and businesses but, indeed, for the broader export task and sustainability of our nation's economic position, and the role that agriculture and the Murray-Darling Basin producers play in that.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Roberts, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:29</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Littleproud has himself announced a $30 million inquiry into the science behind the Murray-Darling Basin Plan. Does the minister consider it appropriate to understand what the government is doing before doing it?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:30</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Government always seeks to use the very best science available on which to make policy decisions. You will recall this process was set in place many years ago. It has required state governments to also do a lot of work on constraints et cetera within their own jurisdictions. I remember when the plan first came into place and we didn't realise that the Barmah Choke was even going to be the constraint that it is on moving the volume of water that needs to go from one end of the basin to the other. So a lot of work has been done by state governments in all the jurisdictions affected and by government agencies to ensure that we are making the best decisions possible, given the available science. That will continue. It is not just the Murray-Darling Basin Authority who has conducted— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Roberts, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Murray-Darling Basin Plan has driven farmers to a class-action lawsuit against the Murray-Darling Basin Authority, seeking damages of $750 million. Last Thursday, 4,000 farmers protested on the banks of the Murray at Tocumwal against their water being sent to South Australia for, as some people say, recreational flows. They even threw an effigy of Minister Littleproud into the river. How much stronger does the opposition need to be before the minister pauses or kills the plan?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:31</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Indeed, 1,500 Victorian and New South Wales irrigators gathered in Tocumwal to express their views about how the Murray-Darling plan was being rolled out. It is tough out there. It is incredibly tough, and it is as a result of there being not enough water available in the consumptive pool to be distributed in a way that ensures farmers are able to grow their crops, communities are able to survive and the environment is able to get the water it needs and that it was agreed to get. At the end of the day, our government is committed to delivering the Murray-Darling Basin Plan, bearing in mind we sought to make significant changes to the original plan that was put forward, which would have seen double the water taken out of these communities. We don't want one more gigalitre to leave— <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Mental Health</title>
          <page.no>59</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:32</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ANTIC</name>
    <name.id>269375</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Health, Senator Cash. Today is R U OK? Day. Every year, R U OK? Day starts an important conversation about suicide prevention across Australia. Can the minister please advise the Senate what steps the Morrison government is taking to support worthy causes like R U OK? Day and deliver support for Australians in managing their mental health?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank Senator Antic for what yet again this week is a very important question. R U OK? does fantastic work, I think we would all agree, providing national focus on leadership for suicide prevention in Australia. This is such an important day today—I certainly had the discussion with my staff this morning—because it draws national attention to how important it is to reach out to family, friends and colleagues and ask them, 'Are you okay?' The government has provided funding for R U OK? through the Department of Health's National Suicide Prevention Leadership and Support Program.</para>
<para>Sadly, more than half of all Australian adults know someone who died by suicide. As we know, suicide causes hurt, loss and pain for those who are left behind. The carnage it wrecks does not discriminate and it extends, as we know, far beyond individuals to the communities and families left behind. I think it would be the position of all of us here in this chamber that no person should have to suffer through the isolation and despair that mental illness is capable of causing while feeling that there is no solution, without feeling there could be and there are brighter days to follow, without feeling that not only is it possible that things will improve but you will be supported through the process of recovery.</para>
<para>We know that by simply reaching out and asking, 'Are you okay?' we can make a massive difference in peoples' lives. The Morrison government are committed to improving the mental health of all Australians. We have adopted a towards-zero target in suicide prevention and, whilst we acknowledge this is a bold goal when we talk of setting objectives in this space, there is, as I think we would all agree, no other acceptable option.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Antic, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ANTIC</name>
    <name.id>269375</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, are there any further investments the government is making to address this important issue?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The answer is, yes, there are. We as a government currently invest over $5 billion in mental health services across Australia each year. We have announced a $503 million youth mental health and suicide prevention plan. This is something that the Prime Minister is incredibly passionate about. It is the largest suicide prevention plan in Australia's history. It's all about ensuring that families, communities and those facing challenges get the support that they need. We're undertaking a major expansion of the headspace network and a significant boost to Indigenous suicide prevention and early childhood and parenting support. We will also trial eight adult mental health centres focusing on specialised support for adults requiring treatment, particularly after hours. We are focused on eating disorders, which many people don't know are actually the deadliest of psychiatric conditions. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Antic, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ANTIC</name>
    <name.id>269375</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, what steps can we as individuals take to help tackle the stigma surrounding mental health?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:36</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CASH</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Whilst enormous progress has been made on ending the stigma, people's self-consciousness about their own mental health concerns still remain high. We know that actually the main barrier for people who want to seek help is that they just can't confront that self-consciousness. Through R U OK? Day and other awareness-raising initiatives, we hope that more Australians will understand the warning signs for suicide, they'll know how to start a positive conversation with someone who is struggling and they'll also have the power to assist them to actually go out and access help. Making a real change in the prevalence of mental ill health and rates of suicide in this country is going to require us all to make a collective effort. It is up to each and every one of us. It is our responsiveness that gives us, together, an opportunity to intervene.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Live Animal Exports</title>
          <page.no>60</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:37</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Agriculture, Senator McKenzie. Minister, the Moss review was highly critical of the Department of Agriculture as the regulator of live exports, and there is immense public concern about the cruelty of live animal exports. Despite this, your department has recently refused a freedom-of-information request from RSPCA Australia for footage taken aboard the 2018 voyage of MW <inline font-style="italic">Al Shuwaikh</inline> on which 609 sheep died, including many from smothering. Does the minister consider it appropriate for this footage to be hidden from the public?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:38</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Faruqi. The Department of Agriculture are the regulator of live animal exports in this country, as you know, and they take that role incredibly seriously. We as a nation can be confident that the system we've put in place in response to the Moss review and the McCarthy review, which were instigated as a result of the horrific voyage last year on the <inline font-style="italic">Awassi Express</inline>, has been a very, very strong action and has resulted in significant changes in behaviour by many animal exporters. We have seen voyage mortality rates go down to 0.1 per cent, which is astounding given the trigger for investigation is at one per cent. That's as a result of changes in stocking density and making sure the animals have—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Faruqi</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My point of order is on direct relevance. Half the time has passed. I asked about a specific voyage and about specific footage that the department has refused to release. I'm asking the minister if she thinks it's appropriate for that footage to be hidden from the public.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, you have reminded the minister of the question. I'll continue listening very carefully. Senator McKenzie.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, I'll take on notice the details of that particular voyage and footage, and get back to you as soon as I can. With respect to the decrease in mortality, as a result of the tough action taken by this government last year, we've seen a significant improvement, and that has been the change to stocking densities. Animals are able to have more room and air around them, but they're also able to access food and water whenever they need, rather than in a restricted manner. That, as we've seen, has led to not only lower mortality rates but also, indeed, higher animal welfare outcomes. Our government is absolutely committed to ensuring that Australians can have confidence that both the live sheep industry and the live cattle industry are conducted with appropriate animal welfare standards and can continue to employ the thousands of Australians that they do.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:40</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, I might enlighten you: your department rejected the request for footage, and one of the reasons they gave was that it might lead to criticism of the live animal export industry. Minister, have you or your staff discussed this FOI request with the Department of Agriculture; and, if so, what was the nature of those discussions or correspondence?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As the department is the independent regulator, it would not be appropriate for me or my office to discuss an independent investigation.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Faruqi, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARUQI</name>
    <name.id>250362</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, more than 600 sheep have died, and thousands more actually fought for space as they suffered in extreme heat. The independent observer noted that she could barely breathe for eight long hours. Could the minister rule out that there has been any involvement from her office or from her in preventing the footage from being released?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Again, Senator Faruqi—not from me. The department is the independent regulator, and, as such, decisions around how the trade is regulated and investigated are within its purview.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>61</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to Senator Cormann, the Minister representing the Prime Minister. In question time yesterday, the Prime Minister refused to assure the parliament that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to sit in the Australian parliament, instead hiding behind Ms Liu's statement. Why?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:42</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I completely reject that proposition. I think any Australian who has watched the Prime Minister stand right behind the member for Chisholm—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Cash</name>
    <name.id>I0M</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>And today.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>and again today, as Senator Cash rightly points out—knows that the Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the Prime Minister sought information from relevant agencies or from other ministers or their offices to assure himself of Ms Liu's fitness to be a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I ask the minister, on behalf of the Prime Minister, to give this chamber an unequivocal assurance that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to be a member of the Australian parliament. I ask him to give that specific assurance.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:43</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As I've said on a number of occasions now, Gladys Liu, who has been elected as the member for Chisholm by the people of Chisholm, consistent with all of the requirements under our Constitution and our electoral laws—having defeated the Labor candidate who was a member of similar organisations, and, in fact, the same organisations—and having made similar observations about not having been aware that she had been made an honorary chairwoman and the like—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On direct relevance: I asked a very specific question. I asked this minister, representing the Prime Minister, to give an assurance that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to be in the parliament. I ask him to give that assurance.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On this point of order, you've restated the question, Senator Wong. That is not a legal test. I'm using those words in the vernacular sense. That is not a legal test, nor is it a matter for anyone to determine someone's eligibility in this parliament—only the court, or indeed this chamber referring it to such. Therefore, in this case, because that is a question asked not in the legal meaning of that term, I believe the minister is being directly relevant when he is speaking this way.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me say to you again, very slowly: the Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm. And you know what? The Labor Party think that they can run any smear and that is somehow going to reverse the democratic result at the last election in the seat of Chisholm and elsewhere. That is what this is all about. You're going through your seven stages of grief. You're not accepting the verdict of the Australian people. You're trying to smear a great Australian who has come here as a migrant and has worked very hard and who has been endorsed by the people of Chisholm at the last election.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Cormann. Senator McDonald.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Education</title>
          <page.no>62</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Minister for Education, Senator McKenzie. Can the minister please update the Senate on the importance of the Liberal-National government delivering stability and certainty for students in rural, regional and remote Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:45</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator McDonald, for your question. The Morrison-McCormack government believes that every Australian child, no matter where they live, should be able to access a world-class education, and that's why we're providing record funding for child care, at $8.6 billion rising to $9.9 billion, in childcare centres from Bamaga in the north to Dover in Tassie's south. That's why we're providing record funding for schools: $310 billion over 10 years, an increase of 62 per cent per student. And that's why we're providing record funding for universities: over $17 billion this year alone.</para>
<para>We need to ensure that we've got the policies and strategies in place to ensure that all Australians can reach their potential, irrespective of their geography. It's why our government instigated the Halsey review, which actually formed part of the $152 million regional student access to education package to improve opportunities for those young people who live outside capital cities. Since 2016, the Liberals and the Nationals have committed more than half a billion dollars in new funding to improve regional higher education facilities and places, regional university centres, and income support and scholarships for rural kids, and we're not done.</para>
<para>At the National Press Club, Dan Tehan, the education minister, released the NAPLAN review, with 33 recommendations about how we, as a government and a country, can ensure that country kids can access higher education at the same rate as their city cousins. It is not because they lack the potential. It is because of cultural issues around lack of aspiration; it's about achievement, which goes to the provision of quality services, right from child care through to our state school systems in regional country towns; and it is about access: whether they need financial support to study in capital city universities or whether they can access that right there at home.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator McKenzie. Senator McDonald, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister please advise the Senate what the government is doing to support teachers in very remote Australia and to support school communities affected by drought and flood?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:48</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Firstly, I want to say: it looks like we're in for a hard summer when it comes to the drought, with no respite in sight for coming months. We understand that education is vital for wellbeing—physical, social and economic—and that goes for families, communities and individuals. It's why we're supporting schools affected by natural disasters as well as drought. We provided $4 million in the special circumstances funding for 25 non-government schools affected by floods in northern Queensland earlier this year. Affected schools across the state are supporting students, their families and staff, and the cost of this assistance has adversely affected the schools' finances. Special circumstances funding will help maintain schools' viability in the face of mounting costs.</para>
<para>Teachers who complete four years of training in a very remote school will be eligible to have part of their HELP debt paid. This will be available to teachers who start their four-year stint early. We're also supporting childcare centres affected by floods.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator McKenzie. Senator McDonald, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McDONALD</name>
    <name.id>123072</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Minister, how is the government supporting universities for regional Australia?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:49</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We're supporting them by providing record funding to Australia's university sector, because access is fundamental for young people to reach their potential. Our government has committed more than a billion dollars in additional funding, with $39.2 million for 21 regional university centres across regional and remote Australia. We've got an $83 million commitment to improving income support for regional students as part of our strategy for them to access education. We've got sub-bachelor and enabling places at university, because often regional students are lacking that connecting piece between the end of their secondary school education and the beginning of a bachelor degree.</para>
<para>We're making sure international students aren't just getting an Australian experience in Melbourne and Sydney. We're encouraging them not only to study world-class soil science but also to be able to go surfing in the afternoon at some of our beautiful beaches. We're also investing in rural and regional enterprise scholarships to give country kids the financial support to ensure that they can access higher education.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>63</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. I refer to an article published by the ABC last night entitled 'Guests on Gladys Liu list for Malcolm Turnbull event sparked ASIO concerns', which reports that former Prime Minister Turnbull cancelled his attendance at a function organised by Ms Liu following the vetting of the guest list by security agencies. Can the minister confirm the former Prime Minister Turnbull cancelled his attendance at that event?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I cannot confirm that. You also know, consistent with longstanding practice, that no government comments on advice from security agencies.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Direct relevance and a misrepresentation of the question. The question did not go to the security advice; that is in the report. We simply asked whether or not the minister could confirm if Mr Turnbull cancelled his attendance. This government is hiding behind a convention about intelligence to avoid scrutiny.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Abetz interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Abetz, I am surprised at you.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Wong. I've given you some liberality in raising that point of order and restating the question, but the minister was being directly relevant to the question. Even if he was not answering it in the preferred manner, I am not capable of instructing him to do so. Senator Gallagher, a supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has the Prime Minister sought or received advice from government agencies about that report?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:51</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer the honourable senator to my previous answers.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Gallagher, a final supplementary question.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator GALLAGHER</name>
    <name.id>ING</name.id>
    <electorate>Australian Capital Territory</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Has Prime Minister Morrison's office continued the process that was in place in former Prime Minister Turnbull's office with respect to vetting of guest lists by intelligence agencies?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We do not comment on security agency arrangements.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>64</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister for Families and Social Services, Senator Ruston. Can the minister please update the Senate on the government's plan to help job seekers secure stability and certainty in a job, including through the proposed drug-testing initiative?</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Watt interjecting—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind senators to maintain their silence during questions being asked so that I may hear them, particularly when I'm saying things from the chair, Senator Watt.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I thank the senator for his question and his particular ongoing interest, even before he came into this place, on initiatives that focus on supporting people who are coming onto welfare, to make sure that they get a stable and ongoing job. We know that people that are on welfare are denying themselves the best opportunity to be able to take advantage of the jobs that are being created.</para>
<para>This government has a very proud record of creating jobs. Over 1.4 million jobs have been created since this government came into office, and we have a plan to create many more whilst we are in government. But the reality that we all need to face is that a small proportion of job seekers require additional support to get work-ready. That is why the drug-testing trial is being introduced by this government. It is not a punitive measure, as those opposite think it is. It's an initiative designed to help job seekers to remove the barriers to employment.</para>
<para>In reforming the welfare system, we need to make sure there are strong incentives for people with a substance abuse issue to get treatment and to rehabilitate, so that they're in a position to be able to find a job. I want to make it very clear: no-one who tests positive to a drug test will lose one cent of their welfare payment. Rather, if a person fails that test, they will be placed on income management which quarantines 80 per cent of their income support so it can only be spent on life's essentials, such as food, housing and clothing, rather than on drugs. We know that cash is the currency of drug dealers, and we want to deny them that currency.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Sullivan, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Can the minister advise the Senate how this initiative will be beneficial to the workplace?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:55</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The drug-testing trial actually is an Australian-first initiative, despite what others might say. We are always out there looking for new and innovative ways to deal with the devastating impact that drugs have on individuals, their families, their communities and the whole of Australia. I'm pleased to advise the Senate that this morning I took a drug test, and anybody in this place is welcome to go and have a drug test; they're in this building. But the main reason that they're here is so you can go and assure yourselves of the process of undertaking a drug test. It's very commonplace in many workplaces.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What was the result?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In fact, Senator O'Farrell, I'm pleased to let you know that—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Farrell, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: I don't wish to be confused with the former Premier of New South Wales.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Ruston can continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry, maybe I was actually saying, 'Oh, Senator Farrell.' But I'd like to advise people in this place that 3.5 million Australians are drug tested every year in the workplace. In the mining industry—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order, Senator Ruston. Senator O'Sullivan, a final supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'SULLIVAN</name>
    <name.id>283585</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>What sort of targeted support will jobseekers who test positive to multiple drug tests be provided with?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:56</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As part of the trial, we have set aside $10 million as a treatment fund so that we can make sure that there is capacity in the trial sites for anybody who does test positive to more than one test to access the treatment that they need to be able to deal with their particular addiction. This is in addition to the $780 million that this government has already committed over the forwards to reduce the impact of drugs on individuals, their families, their communities and Australia.</para>
<para>It will be in three parts, to assist case management for those individuals who find themselves having tested positive more than once. It will be about building the facilities, the services and the treatments to ensure that anybody who does test positive will have access to the services that they need. There's also another individual fund to make sure that we, as a government, are able to get the resources to support the facilities in these areas. This is about providing funding to jobseekers to deal with their drug addiction.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>65</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>My question is to the Minister representing the Prime Minister, Senator Cormann. The member for Chisholm confirmed in a statement yesterday that she held membership of an organisation linked to China's foreign influence operation, the Guangdong Overseas Exchange Association, less than 24 hours after telling Sky News she could not recall being part of it. What changed?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>14:59</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It actually does happen that people, when they give interviews, don't recall all of the events of the past and that, on reflection and on verifying their records and their information, become aware of the actual facts and clarify the situation, which is precisely what the member for Chisholm did and which is the appropriate thing to do. Incidentally, the Labor candidate for the seat of Chisholm at the last election, also of Chinese origin, had a similar experience where she equally had forgotten or was not aware that she had been made the honorary chairman of a particular organisation, the United Chinese Commerce Association of Australia, and, on reflection, realised that she had been. The truth of the matter is that the member for Chisholm has issued a statement which clarifies all these matters. This is now just a Labor smear.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, a supplementary question?</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, I do have one. Ms Liu's statement yesterday also confirmed that she held membership of the United Chinese Commerce Association, less than 24 hours after denying membership on Sky News. What changed?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:00</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I refer Senator Farrell to my previous answer. What I would also point out is that the member for Chisholm, like her challenger from the Labor Party at the last election, was actively involved in the Chinese community in Australia. The smear that the Labor Party is pursuing against the member for Chisholm is a smear against all 1.2 million Australians of Chinese descent, and the Labor Party—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong, on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I would ask that that be withdrawn. It cannot possibly be a smear and that is an inappropriate thing for the minister to say.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I appreciate that you may challenge what the minister said, but—and I'll come to the chamber and correct it if I'm incorrect—off the top of my head, I don't believe that was an unparliamentary reflection on any individual member of parliament nor unparliamentary language.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>My name is Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We have traditionally required more specificity when it comes to unparliamentary reflections. That was a statement in the broad. I appreciate that it may be a debating point. I will check the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> and precedent and come back to the chamber if I'm different, but we've always had the view that general statements—for example, about a group of people in a political party—can be said, but, if they were said about one person, would meet the test that requires withdrawal as unparliamentary language.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Keneally</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Point of order: what Senator Cormann is alleging is incomprehensible—that Senator Wong, as a Chinese-Australian, would perpetrate a smear on herself. That is what he is alleging here. Quite frankly, Mr President, I ask you to review your ruling. The questions the opposition have legitimately posed today about reports relating to foreign interference to a specific member of parliament have been extrapolated by Senator Cormann to the Labor Party committing a smear across all Chinese-Australians, which would include Senator Wong. It is an incomprehensible and absurd position to assert that that does not apply to Senator Wong.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Canavan</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order: Mr President, I think you've being quite liberal during this question time as the opposition has pursued a number of questions raising imputations about a member of the other chamber. We have taken those questions, we have answered those questions, and I think you have been right to liberally apply that. For the Labor Party to now be so defensive about a general point here is not appropriate at all, and it would not be a consistent application of the standards during this question time if this point were to be upheld. to be upheld.</para>
<para>Opposition senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I gave him the same generosity I provided Senator Keneally. On the issue of the point of order that Senator Keneally raises: I will, as I said, review the exact words Senator Cormann used, but, even in the words you restated, which, if they were the words he used, in my view—and, again, I'll correct it if the precedent directs me otherwise—a general comment of that nature does not qualify as unparliamentary or an imputation or reflection upon an individual. We have traditionally required that it be more specific about a person. It may be a legitimate debating point, but I do not believe that it is unparliamentary. I'll happily correct myself if I'm wrong. Had you concluded your answer, Senator Cormann?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We are up to Senator Farrell's final supplementary.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I do have one. Given that every answer from Ms Liu raises more questions, when will the Prime Minister assure the parliament and the Australian people that she is a fit and proper person to be a member of the Australian parliament?</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I completely reject the premise of the question. Furthermore, the member for Chisholm has been validly elected as the member for Chisholm by the people of Chisholm. That is something that the Labor Party cannot accept. As I've already indicated, the Prime Minister has full confidence in the member for Chisholm.</para>
<para>I ask that further questions be placed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>66</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>66</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I seek leave to move a motion relating to an explanation from the Minister representing the Prime Minister.</para>
<para>Leave not granted.</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WONG</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Pursuant to contingent notice, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That so much of standing orders be suspended as would prevent the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate (Senator Wong) moving a motion relating to consideration of matter, namely a motion relating to an explanation from the Minister representing the Prime Minister.</para></quote>
<para>This is a motion which, if passed, will require Senator Cormann, on behalf of the Prime Minister, to come in on Monday at 12.20 to provide an assurance to the Senate that he refused on multiple occasions to give today, and that is the assurance from the government and the Prime Minister that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to remain a member of the Australian parliament. This government is failing in its most important duty, and that is to assure Australians that it is properly, sensibly and apolitically managing Australia's national security. For weeks now, questions have been raised over whether the member for Chisholm's connections mean that she may not be a fit and proper person to be in our parliament. In an effort to address the questions, she gave a television interview, a very famous television interview, but the problem is that her answers simply raised more questions.</para>
<para>In an attempt to deal with those new questions, the Prime Minister's office wrote a press release that was issued in the member for Chisholm's name. When that in turn raised new questions about why the member for Chisholm's statements are so wildly inconsistent, the Prime Minister then gave a press conference where he claimed that the only thing that has happened is that the member for Chisholm has given a somewhat clumsy interview. He's claimed that there is no credible suggestion of any inappropriate behaviour in relation to the member for Chisholm. Well, patently that is untrue, because this morning Australia awoke to an extraordinary report in a number of newspapers that senior Liberals were warned by security agencies that concerns about the member for Chisholm's links to the Chinese Communist Party made it unwise to preselect her. This is not the Labor Party asserting this; this is a public report in a newspaper, and it needs to be responded to by the government. It needs to have a response by the government—a response that is more than hyperbole, more than bluster and more than aggression and actually deals with a very serious accusation that has been publicly made about a member of this parliament: the assertion that security agencies warned senior Liberals that concerns about Ms Liu's links to the Communist Party of China made it unwise to preselect her. It has nothing to do with her interview; it is about whether the Prime Minister is prepared to put winning marginal seats ahead of national security and whether he is now putting his one-seat majority ahead of national security. One of the government's own MPs is quoted in the papers as saying:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… there should have been concerns when she was being chosen to stand … and I believe those concerns were ignored.</para></quote>
<para>The Prime Minister should provide an honest answer. But, instead of the Prime Minister and his ministers who have responsibility for national security and who sit on the NSC providing an honest answer, this government and this Prime Minister are playing clever tricks on race.</para>
<para>I will say this: there is only one person who is making these specific and serious concerns about the member for Chisholm an issue about race, and that is Scott Morrison. There is only one person who is linking these specific, serious concerns about the member for Chisholm to the entire Chinese Australian population, and that is Mr Morrison. It is the Prime Minister who is using this issue as a shield from accountability to the parliament and the Australian people. The Prime Minister is hiding behind the entire Chinese Australian community to avoid saying why he has ignored warnings from our national security agencies. Can I say that is one of the lowest acts I have seen in all my time in this place—that you would use Chinese Australians in order to avoid answering questions about why you are ignoring advice from national security agencies.</para>
<para>Because of what the Prime Minister has done, it is more important than ever for Chinese Australians and our inclusive democracy for these specific concerns to be addressed, because all of us in this place must be able to provide a public assurance that we have no conflict of interest in serving the Australian people. That is a basic democratic requirement. I would say to the minister: if you avoid this motion, if you avoid coming in to give a statement that provides the assurance that you and Senator Payne have repeatedly declined to give—that Ms Liu is a fit and proper person to sit in this parliament—it really says that you do not understand the role you have in this democracy. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:10</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CORMANN</name>
    <name.id>HDA</name.id>
    <electorate>Western Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>This is just a complete stunt. I'll tell you why it's a stunt. What I'm being asked to do at 12.20 pm on Monday is what I do every day in question time—every single day. The answer I'd be providing at 12.20 pm on Monday, if this motion were to get up, would be the same answer I would be giving to any question asked in question time. It's a stunt that is part of a political strategy. Senator Wong let the cat out of the bag when she said that this is about a one-seat majority. She let the cat out of the bag. This is all about Labor somehow thinking that, despite the verdict of the Australian people at the last election, they can somehow find a way to sneak themselves back into contention for getting into government. That is what this is all about.</para>
<para>What do you do when you pursue a smear? You refer to media reports. We know how media reports can happen. As it happens, the ABC published an article titled 'Australian Liberal MP Gladys Liu's links to secretive United Front Chinese influence arm'. But, as it turns out, Ms Liu's Labor opponent at the last election, Jennifer Yang, was a member of the same organisation. Now, do you think Senator Wong would be asking me the same question if the Labor candidate had been successful and if Senator Wong was the foreign minister of Australia right now? No, she would not. This is hypocrisy writ large. This is political opportunism and hypocrisy writ large, and it will not do you any favours whatsoever.</para>
<para>It is true that Gladys Liu has been very active in the Chinese community in Australia, as many other Chinese Australians have been—indeed, as the Labor candidate in Chisholm at the last election appears to have been. That is no reason to do to a newly elected member of parliament what the Labor Party is doing now. There's only one reason you're doing what you're doing, and that is that you think it could somehow get you one seat closer to the prize that you thought you had already won but turned out not to be available for you, because the Australian people made a judgement that they preferred our plan to build a stronger economy to your politics-of-envy socialist agenda that would have made Australia poorer and Australians poorer and weaker. We will not be supporting this suspension.</para>
<para>I might also say that Gladys Liu and Jennifer Yang were made honorary chairwomen of the United Chinese Commerce Association of Australia at the same time. Indeed, the Labor candidate, Ms Yang, attended the same World Trade United Foundation sponsored event in Melbourne in August 2017, appearing on stage, seated in the back row, along with Bruce Atkinson and Gladys Liu. Labor's candidate in Chisholm, Jennifer Yang, said she did not recall being formally appointed an honorary chairwoman of the United Chinese Commerce Association of Australia. Incidentally, is that the association that took the then shadow Treasurer, Chris Bowen, to China? Is it the same association?</para>
<para>This is the lowest of the low. The Labor Party should hang their heads in shame, in terms of how they are pursuing this. You should absolutely hang your heads in shame. I could go through more parallels to demonstrate the absolute hypocrisy in Labor pursuing this. This is confected interest about somehow having national security related concerns. You don't have national security related concerns in relation to the member for Chisholm. You know that it is completely inappropriate for you to pursue this the way you're pursuing it.</para>
<para>Again, I think everyone in this chamber knows what this is about. This is about the Labor Party having lost a seat that they thought they already had in their pocket. You were so confident in the lead-up to the last election. Not only had you already measured for carpet and curtains in The Lodge but you had the removalist vans ready to go, to move in. And now, here you are. You didn't get there because a majority of the people of Chisholm preferred our candidate and preferred our agenda for a stronger economy, for more jobs and to keep Australians safe and secure to the alternative, and you can't get over it. If you want to be competitive at the next election, you've got to get yourself to stage 7 of the seven stages of grief, and that is acceptance. Acceptance of the verdict of the Australian people is going to be a prerequisite for you to be able to be competitive in the lead-up to the next election. This is a disgraceful stunt. Whether I'm appearing at 12.20 pm on Monday or 2 pm on Monday, the answers will be the same.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator KENEALLY</name>
    <name.id>LNW</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise today in support of the motion to suspend standing orders. What we have seen this week is extraordinary. There have been numerous reports this week about the member for Chisholm: her political affiliations, her contacts and her fundraising. There have even been reports that ASIO was so concerned by the member for Chisholm's conduct that it warned the Prime Minister's office and others in the Liberal Party against preselecting her. Yet the Liberal Party allowed her to be preselected and ultimately elected to this parliament. In fact, according to one source, a source in the intelligence community apparently told a senior party official, 'We can't tell you what to do, but we don't think it would be a good idea.' Unbelievable!</para>
<para>These reports occurred today in the media. The opposition does what an opposition should rightly do and questions whether those reports are true, and puts those questions to the elected government. And what do they do? They hide behind smears and accusations of racism. They hide behind statements that she was elected. Yes, she was elected, but did the people of Chisholm know what the Liberal Party is reported to have known or what the Prime Minister of the day was reported to have known—that is, that our national security agencies had serious concerns about the member for Chisholm's links to the Chinese Communist Party, concerns that they found so alarming that they felt the need to bring them to the attention of the Liberal Party and the Prime Minister?</para>
<para>I have to say that the only thing that is more extraordinary than the alleged behaviour of the member for Chisholm is the current behaviour of this Prime Minister, the Minister for Finance and the leader of the government in this chamber, and their colleagues. It is beyond shameful to hear the Prime Minister and others claim that fair scrutiny of the member for Chisholm, much of it by hardworking members of our national intelligence community, is somehow an act of racism. What an astonishing statement from this Liberal government! Let's not forget that these are the same Liberals who voted in this chamber for the 'It's okay to be white' motion. Let's not forget these are the same Liberals who rushed to shake the hand of Fraser Anning after he cited the final solution in his first speech. Let's not forget this is the same Liberal government whose home affairs minister claims that Melburnians are too scared to go out at night due to African gang violence and that the Fraser government made mistakes bringing in people from a Lebanese Muslim background in the 1970s. For this lot to get up and hurl accusations of racism at the opposition for simply raising legitimate questions about whether or not it is true that national security agencies raised concerns about the member for Chisholm and that they were ignored by this Liberal government just goes to show that this is all about their ducking and weaving.</para>
<para>They were given opportunities—Senator Payne was asked by Senator Kitching and Senator Cormann was asked twice, once by Senator Wong and once by Senator Farrell—to utter four simple words: that the member for Chisholm is a 'fit and proper person' to serve in this parliament. They did not do it. The foreign minister, Senator Payne, got up and pretended she had said those words. What she actually said is, 'It is offensive to raise the suggestion.' She never uttered those words. Minister Cormann never uttered those words. And that is what is most telling here: the fact that they know they cannot stand in this chamber and assert beyond a reasonable doubt, with confidence, and give assurance to the Australian people that the member for Chisholm is in fact a fit and proper person to serve in this parliament. Had they done that today in question time we wouldn't have needed to move this suspension of standing orders—we wouldn't have needed to move this motion—but they failed to do that.</para>
<para>These are legitimate questions. Serious allegations are being raised in the nation's media. The Prime Minister of this country and Minister Cormann as his representative in this chamber owe it to this parliament and to the Australian people to explain the member for Chisholm's conduct, to answer the allegation that national security agencies have raised concerns about her connections and to assure us that she is indeed fit and proper to represent her constituents.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:20</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>We still don't have an answer from those opposite—we have no answer from those opposite—about what they are actually saying. What they are claiming is to have seen media reports, which they are citing. They have quoted them at length. They are asking questions about, apparently, security agency advice. I would suggest, though, that they might want to refer to the words of the former Attorney-General, the member for Isaacs, I think, where he, as the then Attorney-General, refused to confirm or deny the report or reports in relation to an ASIO matter, citing a longstanding government policy of declining to comment on security matters. That's apparently described by those opposite now as some sort of shield but, in fact, it is an appropriate and well-recognised way for governments to address security and intelligence matters. He went on in another article at the same time, in 2013, to say:</para>
<quote><para class="block">I'm not going to comment on operational matters involving the Australian Security Intelligence Organization or any security matters.</para></quote>
<para>So when they say that government should publicly debate these issues, they are completely walking away from their own 'standards', and I use that word advisedly in relation to the Labor Party.</para>
<para>The member for Chisholm has made a clear public statement of multiple paragraphs, which the Prime Minister indicated this morning that we would be pleased to place on the parliamentary record. Three of those paragraphs apparently relate to associations in Australia with which the member for Chisholm was previously involved. But she is not the only person to have been engaged in recent political activity to have been associated with those groups. In fact, the Labor candidate for Chisholm, as others have said in this chamber today, was also an office holder and a member of those organisations—two in particular. As the Attorney-General has pointed out in the House of Representatives today, the member for McMahon has accepted hospitality and travel from those organisations. Does that make him what they are claiming the member for Chisholm is? I actually think not, but we would not seek to smear the member for McMahon in the way that those opposite are endeavouring to smear a member of parliament with their behaviours.</para>
<para>Yesterday, Senator Wong attempted to draw some degree of moral equivalence between the member for Chisholm and former Labor Senator Dastyari—but there is none. In fact, it is extraordinary to suggest that there would be, and let's be clear about why that is the case. Everybody knows that the former Labor senator for New South Wales accepted funds for his own accounts and payments from other people who paid his bills when he went over his parliamentary travel budget and who settled a private legal matter for him. They know that he stood next to the individual concerned at a press conference in Commonwealth parliamentary offices in support of the Chinese government's refusal to abide by international court rulings on disputed territory in the South China Sea. And those opposite seek to equate a moral equivalence between that sort of behaviour and the member for Chisholm. It is absolutely extraordinary.</para>
<para>But I'll tell you what's really extraordinary: to have to sit in this chamber and listen to a member of the New South Wales Labor Party lecture anyone else about political associations, about contact and about fundraising. I don't know where those opposite get their Aldi bags but we know what they do with them. I don't know how those opposite can claim to be on some high moral ground about political associations and contacts when members of their former government are serving prison sentences for their behaviour. It is absolutely extraordinary. And I don't know how those opposite can claim any moral virtue on this subject and around racism when their own leaders—</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! Senator Wong, on a point of order?</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Wong has risen on a point of order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Mr President. Rather than interrupt debate, I wonder if you could look at the minister's contribution, make a decision subsequently as to whether there were aspects of that which are clearly the sorts of imputations which the standing orders prohibit, and consider the appropriateness of us and the minister subsequently.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I'll do so.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Wong</name>
    <name.id>00AOU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I don't want to get into an argument now. I just would ask you to consider that.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order, Senator Payne?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order, Mr President: if you choose to take the point of order of the Leader of the Opposition in the Senate on considering the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> in relation to imputations, could I please ask that you also consider the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> in relation to all of the imputations those opposite have endeavoured to make about the member for Chisholm?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>On the point of order—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Order! If I could rule on the point of order—</para>
<para>Honourable senators interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Reynolds, Senator Wong, Senator Payne—order, please! On the issue of imputations, this chamber has slipped a very long way over my decade here during question time, where imputations and improper motives are assigned to people in the asking of some questions. When it comes to a member in another place or another parliament or a member of the judiciary, we have traditionally applied much stricter standards. I will always take a request from any senator to review the <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline> of a debate to see if there was something that was inappropriate. If there is, I will approach senators and deal with it that way before I bring it back to the chamber.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PAYNE</name>
    <name.id>M56</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Let me conclude by saying I will not be lectured and we will not be lectured by those on the other side, particularly those from the New South Wales Labor Party, the party of Luke Foley and white flight and the party of Michael Daley, who claimed Asians with PhDs are taking the jobs of young Sydneysiders—young Australians. That is hypocrisy in the extreme and not entirely surprising.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:26</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator PATRICK</name>
    <name.id>144292</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I indicate that Centre Alliance will support the substantive motion but not the suspension of standing orders.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>I0Q</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion to suspend standing orders, moved by Senator Wong, be agreed to.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
<division>
          <division.header>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionPreamble">The Senate divided. [15:31]<br />(The President—Senator Ryan)</p>
            </body>
          </division.header>
          <division.data>
            <ayes>
              <num.votes>35</num.votes>
              <title>AYES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Ayres, T</name>
                <name>Bilyk, CL</name>
                <name>Carr, KJ</name>
                <name>Chisholm, A</name>
                <name>Ciccone, R</name>
                <name>Di Natale, R</name>
                <name>Dodson, P</name>
                <name>Farrell, D</name>
                <name>Faruqi, M</name>
                <name>Gallacher, AM</name>
                <name>Gallagher, KR</name>
                <name>Green, N</name>
                <name>Hanson, P</name>
                <name>Hanson-Young, SC</name>
                <name>Keneally, KK</name>
                <name>Kitching, K</name>
                <name>Lambie, J</name>
                <name>Lines, S</name>
                <name>McAllister, J</name>
                <name>McCarthy, M (teller)</name>
                <name>McKim, NJ</name>
                <name>O'Neill, D</name>
                <name>Polley, H</name>
                <name>Pratt, LC</name>
                <name>Roberts, M</name>
                <name>Sheldon, A</name>
                <name>Siewert, R</name>
                <name>Smith, M</name>
                <name>Steele-John, J</name>
                <name>Sterle, G</name>
                <name>Urquhart, AE</name>
                <name>Walsh, J</name>
                <name>Waters, LJ</name>
                <name>Whish-Wilson, PS</name>
                <name>Wong, P</name>
              </names>
            </ayes>
            <noes>
              <num.votes>35</num.votes>
              <title>NOES</title>
              <names>
                <name>Abetz, E</name>
                <name>Antic, A</name>
                <name>Askew, W</name>
                <name>Bernardi, C</name>
                <name>Bragg, A J</name>
                <name>Brockman, S</name>
                <name>Canavan, MJ</name>
                <name>Cash, MC</name>
                <name>Chandler, C</name>
                <name>Colbeck, R</name>
                <name>Cormann, M</name>
                <name>Davey, P</name>
                <name>Duniam, J</name>
                <name>Fawcett, DJ</name>
                <name>Henderson, SM</name>
                <name>Hughes, H</name>
                <name>Hume, J</name>
                <name>McDonald, S</name>
                <name>McGrath, J</name>
                <name>McKenzie, B</name>
                <name>McMahon, S</name>
                <name>O'Sullivan, MA</name>
                <name>Paterson, J</name>
                <name>Patrick, RL</name>
                <name>Payne, MA</name>
                <name>Rennick, G</name>
                <name>Reynolds, L</name>
                <name>Ruston, A</name>
                <name>Ryan, SM</name>
                <name>Scarr, P</name>
                <name>Seselja, Z</name>
                <name>Sinodinos, A</name>
                <name>Smith, DA (teller)</name>
                <name>Stoker, AJ</name>
                <name>Van, D</name>
              </names>
            </noes>
            <pairs>
              <num.votes>3</num.votes>
              <title>PAIRS</title>
              <names>
                <name>Brown, CL</name>
                <name>Birmingham, SJ</name>
                <name>Rice, J</name>
                <name>Griff, S</name>
                <name>Watt, M</name>
                <name>Fierravanti-Wells, </name>
              </names>
            </pairs>
          </division.data>
          <division.result>
            <body>
              <p class="HPS-DivisionFooter">Question negatived.</p>
            </body>
          </division.result>
        </division></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: ADDITIONAL ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Pensions and Benefits</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RUSTON</name>
    <name.id>243273</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>It has been brought to my attention that during question time I inadvertently left a couple of words out of a sentence. My sentence should have read:</para>
<quote><para class="block">We know that people that are on welfare—</para></quote>
<para>who take drugs—</para>
<quote><para class="block">are denying themselves the best opportunity to be able to take advantage of the jobs that are being created.</para></quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Gas Industry</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CANAVAN</name>
    <name.id>245212</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would like to correct a statement I made during question time yesterday in relation to gas prices. I said that the gas spot price in Brisbane fell to $5.16 a gigajoule last month. I meant to say the price had fallen by $5.16 a gigajoule last month. Last month they averaged $6.99 a gigajoule in Brisbane.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Live Animal Exports</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:34</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McKENZIE</name>
    <name.id>207825</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I would like to add information to an answer I gave to Senator Faruqi today. I've been advised there was a report in the media relating to an FOI request submitted by the RSPCA on 22 May 2019. All FOI requests submitted to the department are managed in accordance with the FOI Act 1982 and guidance material issued by the Office of the Australian Information Commissioner, including consideration of examination from access. On multiple occasions, the department has invited the RSPCA to refine the scope of their request for video footage to reduce the resource burden on the department. In the case of this most recent request, after undertaking relevant third-party consultations, the decision-maker decided to refuse access to the footage on the basis that the disclosure of the footage would or could unreasonably affect organisations in respect of their lawful business affairs and that it would be contrary to the public interest to disclose the information. That decision is currently the subject of an internal review process, and it's not appropriate to comment on the matter further until that process has been completed.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</title>
        <page.no>71</page.no>
        <type>QUESTIONS WITHOUT NOTICE: TAKE NOTE OF ANSWERS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Member for Chisholm</title>
          <page.no>71</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator FARRELL</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
    <electorate>South Australia</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate take note of the answers given by ministers to questions without notice asked by Opposition senators today.</para></quote>
<para>What sort of parallel universe is this government living in at the moment! They're trying to say that the Labor Party is seeking to smear Ms Liu. Let's look at the facts. What did Andrew Probyn from the ABC—a very good journalist—report this morning? He reported:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Gladys Liu's association with Chinese figures who were deemed a security risk was the subject of an ASIO investigation even before she entered Parliament or became a Liberal Party candidate.</para></quote>
<para>Mr Probyn goes on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The ABC understands ASIO Director-General Duncan Lewis advised that then-prime minister Malcolm Turnbull, based on the guest list, should not attend a 'meet and greet' organised by Ms Liu in the Victorian electorate of Chisholm for Chinese New Year in February 2018.</para></quote>
<para>If that doesn't ring some alarm bells in this government, what does? But there's more. <inline font-style="italic">The West Australian</inline> today says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Morrison Government is under pressure to launch a full-blown investigation into Chinese-Australian MP Gladys Liu's links to Beijing, with even its own parliamentarians voicing concerns.</para></quote>
<para>This is not the Labor Party making smears against Ms Liu. This is members of the government, on the other side, making it very clear that they've got concerns about Ms Liu's connections with the Chinese government. The report goes on:</para>
<quote><para class="block">A handful of Liberal MPs last night told The West Australian they wanted a full probe into their colleague to ensure her loyalties were not divided between China and Australia.</para></quote>
<para>This is not an ordinary section 44 issue. Section 44 has been used in the last parliament to knock out members of parliament who had dual citizenship. But, if you read section 44, it talks about your allegiances. What these Liberal MPs are doing is raising serious questions about the allegiance of Ms Gladys Liu.</para>
<para>If that wasn't enough to spark some interest or some inquiry on the part of the government, then can I refer to Ms Liu's own comments on the Bolt show the other evening. It's not a show I customarily watch, but she was asked pretty simple questions about whether or not she attended functions and was a member of a number of organisations, including China's United Front, an organisation that apparently acts on behalf of the Chinese government, a propaganda organisation for the Chinese government. And what do we see?</para>
<para>We see a photograph. On 14 August the ABC published photographs of Ms Gladys Liu with, amongst other people, WTUF founder Baima Aose and China's United Front coordinator. The night she does the Bolt interview she can't remember—doesn't know—whether she's a member of this organisation. She's got a photograph, a lovely photograph—I assume it's on her web page or the web page of the organisation itself—that makes it very clear that she's a participant in this organisation and that she's fully prepared to make it clear that she is a participant in that organisation.</para>
<para>Now, if all of those things aren't enough for this government to start questioning the issue, then I don't know what is. What do you need? You've got the director-general of ASIO saying, 'Don't preselect this candidate.' You've got Ms Liu confused about whether she is or isn't a member of these organisations. And now you've got all these Liberal Party MPs saying that there are question marks about this lady. Let's have an investigation.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:41</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise in support of my colleague in the other place, Gladys Liu. She's my friend and colleague, and I have absolute faith in her and her ability to do her job in this place.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>ASIO doesn't.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You don't know that, Senator Farrell—why don't you table it? Why don't you put up or just be quiet while I'm speaking. Senator Farrell raised the point of parallel universes. Well, let's point out a few. The Labor candidate for the seat of Chisholm was a member of the same—</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Farrell interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, I was quiet while you were speaking, despite some of the despicable things you were saying, so I ask you to be quiet.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Nothing I've said was despicable.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe it is.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Smith, a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Dean Smith</name>
    <name.id>241710</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, of all people, know what conduct is required of senators in this particular part of the day. I'd just ask you to call him to order.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I remind all senators that remarks must be made to the chair and that interjections are disorderly, and people have the right to be heard in silence. Senator Farrell?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>A point of order: I reject the suggestion that anything I said was despicable. All the things I said were issues that have been reported in reputable newspapers around this country.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>10000</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Farrell, that's a debating point. I've reminded senators of the way that we conduct ourselves according to the standing orders. Please continue, Senator Van.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The member for Chisholm is an absolutely suitable person to be a member of this parliament, and she was elected by the people of Chisholm. Ms Liu is an outstanding Australian. She came here as a migrant, and I point out to the chamber that Ms Liu is a migrant from Hong Kong—what's been happening in Hong Kong recently might be lost on those on the other side. So the point that Ms Liu might be a member of the Chinese Communist Party—which I think they're trying to allege—is absolutely wrong. She came here as a migrant and has done exceptionally well. Her work as a speech pathologist is well known and well understood. The work that she's done throughout her community, and being a member of community groups—memberships that other people have—shouldn't be lost on those on the other side.</para>
<para>We should also ask: what are all these allegations going to do to other migrants, especially other migrant women, who are deciding whether to take up a place in public life? They may wonder, 'Should I stand for politics if I'm going to cop this sort of abuse from those from the other side?' It's absolutely disgraceful. Many Australian migrants have dedicated their lives to the betterment of their community within Australia. I believe it is offensive that someone of the standing of Gladys Liu has been unfairly questioned about her allegiance to Australia. We should not doubt the superior loyalty and commitment of migrants to Australia. Instead, we should recognise their contributions to our political system. Gladys Liu was one such migrant. She grew up in Hong Kong. Remember that. Please, senators: remember she grew up in Hong Kong and migrated from Hong Kong.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Farrell</name>
    <name.id>I0N</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Is she on the side of the democracy protesters?</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator VAN</name>
    <name.id>283601</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, she has come out saying that, I believe. Gladys immigrated to Australia and has worked tirelessly to forward the integration of Chinese migrants into Australian society, and there is no doubt in my mind that Gladys is an exceptional individual and an exceptional Australian.</para>
<para>In my maiden speech I discussed the value of Australia's democracy, and I must say the attitude of some towards our first-ever elected female Chinese member of the House of Representatives is incongruous with the democracy I know and love. Gladys Liu has faced extreme criticism, including ongoing criticism from Senator Farrell at this point in time, for associations with two organisations in particular. However, I ask: should those organisations be different to any other organisation that non-Chinese current and former parliamentarians have also been a part of? Have these non-Chinese Australians faced similar rebuke? There is a double standard here that needs to be highlighted. From my home state of Victoria, earlier this year the Labor Premier, Dan Andrews, was in China attending the Belt and Road forum. We can assume that Dan accepted hospitality at this event and throughout his travels from a foreign government, and this is to be expected. This is natural. But would the perception of Dan's tour be under challenge if he were a Chinese Australian? Unfortunately, after what we've seen today, I don't think it would be. As we heard earlier, the member for McMahon accepted travel from the Australian Guangdong Chamber of Commerce over his five-day trip to Hong Kong and China. If he were a Chinese Australian, would he get the same treatment that Ms Liu has? I believe Ms Liu is a very solid Australian and is a very proper person to be in this place.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:47</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>Serving as a senator, or indeed as a member of the other place, is quite an undertaking and requires us to make decisions on the basis of what is in the best interests of our community. In doing so, it is incumbent upon us to make those decisions without conflict or undue influence from any party—least of all from overseas interests.</para>
<para>Over the course of many weeks now, we have heard successive reports in the media regarding the member for Chisholm—story after story. It was all piling up, and questions about her suitability to sit as a member of this parliament became more and more pressing. In an effort to release the mounting pressure, the honourable member in the other place decided to join Andrew Bolt on Sky to clear the air. I can only assume that in doing so the member for Chisholm was advised, probably by the Prime Minister's office, that Bolt would give her an easy run—a quick 15-minute appearance, some softball questions and all would be well. How wrong were they? How wrong they were indeed! Three times she was asked, and failed, to commit to Australia's bipartisan position on China's behaviour in the South China Sea. Over and over again she failed to explain her associations with numerous organisations, all of serious concern. The next day she issued a statement which featured a spectacular about-face. Suddenly the story changed. The questionable organisations were all remembered and the chairmanships suddenly recorded.</para>
<para>We've since learned, through diligent reporting, of some senior Liberals being warned by our nation's own security agencies—it's been alleged by them—about the member for Chisholm's links with the Chinese Communist Party. Were those warnings that were given to senior Liberals heeded?</para>
<para>Did a Liberal put the alleged advice of our security agencies ahead of their own ambitions to win the seat of Chisholm at the last federal election? Well, in the words of one government MP, as quoted in the article today, 'I believe those concerns were ignored.'</para>
<para>Now the question becomes: why don't the Prime Minister and members of his government stand before the House of Representatives, or stand before this chamber, and declare that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to sit in this parliament? What are those opposite afraid of? What do they know that we don't know?</para>
<para>I'll tell you what we do know, Madam Deputy President: we know that there are reports that the member for Chisholm is a member of organisations that are of serious concern because of their links to the Chinese Communist Party. We know that it has been alleged in the papers yesterday and today that senior Liberals were advised that it would be 'unwise' to preselect her. We also know that the Prime Minister proudly declared, back in April of this year, 'How good is Gladys!' And, after today, I can say that we know one more thing: we know that there are a lot of folks on the other side who would probably want to have their time again in preselecting the member for Chisholm.</para>
<para>All parliamentarians must be able to provide an assurance that they have no conflict of interest in serving the Australian people, whether here in the Senate or in the other place. It is up to the Prime Minister to demonstrate to the parliament, and to the Australian people and the people in the electorate of Chisholm in my home state of Victoria, that the member for Chisholm is a fit and proper person to sit in the Australian parliament.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:52</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CHANDLER</name>
    <name.id>264449</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In rising today to take note of the responses that we've had from government ministers to questions from the opposition during question time, I must say: this is just another example of this Labor opposition demonstrating that they have no plan and no policy agenda which they can talk about. They've taken up hours of this chamber's time today talking about something that is not part of any positive or even consistent, coherent plan for what they might do for Australia. After all, isn't that what we are here for in this place—to debate policy and enact a plan which delivers for Australians on the things that matter to them? But that's not what Labor do in this parliament, because they don't have a plan and they can't agree on their policy agenda. That's certainly the evidence that we have seen here today.</para>
<para>In relation to this issue that Labor is trying to push regarding the member for Chisholm, it has been pointed out today that Labor's own shadow health minister has travelled to China on a delegation paid for by the Chinese Communist Party. If Labor thinks that it is worth the Senate's time to make these sorts of assertions, then why not focus on the member for McMahon? I'm not saying necessarily that we should; I think that there are far more important things for this place to be debating. All I'm saying is that perhaps our friends on the other side should consider a little bit of consistency and consider whether they have been consistent in raising this issue today—or even focus on their own candidate for the seat of Chisholm. Again, it's an issue of consistency that we are talking about here. Their own candidate for Chisholm, I understand, was a member of at least two of the organisations that the current member for Chisholm has been a member of. So, again, we see absolute inconsistency from the opposition on this point.</para>
<para>I think there are many better things that the Senate could be discussing today, like the Morrison coalition government's plan to create jobs and grow the economy. In fact, I could settle for something less than that. I could settle for Labor putting forward their own alternative to that—because at least we could then have an appropriate contest of ideas in this place about how we think this country should be run. The Morrison government has our plan. The opposition, unfortunately, are yet to come up with any consistent or coherent narrative about how they see this country progressing. As Minister Cormann said today, it's because they are spiralling through the many stages of grief as a result of their loss at the election on 18 May, an election they thought they were going to win. In contrast, this government took to the election a plan that was resoundingly endorsed by the Australian people on 18 May and is steadfastly getting on with the job of implementing that plan. That's why I'm so disappointed that we have spent today not focused on these issues that matter to the people of Australia and to the people in my own state of Tasmania, who might be listening in today and wondering what on earth the Senate is doing with its time.</para>
<para>The best thing you can say about the Labor Party at the moment is that, if you don't agree with their position on one issue today, they might change their mind tomorrow. Tomorrow they might have something to say in complete contradiction to what they have been saying today. So perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that there are inconsistencies around their rhetoric today in terms of the member for Chisholm in comparison with members of their own party. If they can't be consistent on this issue, we can't trust them to come up with any sort of consistent agenda for how they think this country should progress. It is more of the 'same old, same old' from the opposition.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>15:57</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I too rise to take note of questions and answers in today's question time. These are very serious questions indeed and raise very serious issues, not just for the member for Chisholm but also for the Prime Minister and the government, about the political judgement of the Liberal Party in Victoria. The questions surrounding the member for Chisholm's suitability to sit in the parliament go to the heart of the electorate's distrust, disillusionment and despair at the state of contemporary politics. In case anybody hasn't been listening, Australians have started to lose confidence in their elected representatives and are wondering whether they are acting in their interests. Is it any wonder? The efforts in today's question time to not answer questions, or to obscure the real questions, to try and give rise to an apprehension that the Labor Party's questions today were directed at the capacity of all of the people of a particular community in Australia, is a misrepresentation of the position and, more seriously, a misunderstanding of the responsibilities of those opposite and the responsibilities of government to act in the best interests of national security.</para>
<para>For weeks, questions have been asked about the member for Chisholm's suitability to sit in the Australian parliament. Every answer from the member for Chisholm to these questions begs more questions. A careless reference to national security is a smokescreen—the last refuge. What is required here is precision and an understanding of people's responsibilities. Was Ms Liu, the member for Chisholm, a member and honorary office-bearer of organisations that are part of the foreign influence activities of the Chinese government? Is this true? Did she declare her membership of these organisations or did she obscure her membership of these organisations? Did the Prime Minister know? Was he warned about it by the security agencies or other agencies?</para>
<para>If the Prime Minister knew, what did he do about it?</para>
<para>In an effort to clear her name, the member for Chisholm agreed to an interview with Andrew Bolt on Sky on Tuesday night. That's not necessarily where I'd go in an effort to clarify things, but that's where she went. The interview was a train wreck. It wasn't the clumsy effort of a first-time backbencher. We could all make those mistakes. The member for Chisholm couldn't explain her membership of numerous organisations of concern. She could recall during the election every other aspect of her CV but she couldn't recall or explain those memberships. She failed on three occasions to commit herself to the bipartisan Australian national position on the South China Sea.</para>
<para>Yesterday she issued a statement in an effort to clear her name. The reports are that the statement was prepared by the Prime Minister's office. On Tuesday night she couldn't recall her associations; less than 24 hours later, she was completely clear. What has changed? I think people are entitled to know. And, in a more serious sense, they're entitled to ask: what did the Prime Minister know? What did the Victorian Liberal Party know about Ms Liu's previous associations? What did they do to satisfy themselves about whether or not she was a fit and proper person to sit in the Australian parliament?</para>
<para>In question time today, Minister Cormann refused to assure Australians or the Senate that Ms Liu was a fit and proper person to sit in the Australian parliament. In question time yesterday, Senator Payne refused to assure Australians that Ms Liu was a fit and proper person to sit in the Australian parliament. It's time the Senate got some answers to these questions. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Queensland: Mining</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">The DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>112096</name.id>
    <electorate></electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>During formal motions today, a division was called in relation to general business notice of motion No. 123 standing in the name of Senator McDonald concerning resource project approvals. I am advised that there was an error relating to pairs for the division. Accordingly, I advise that the correct result of the division is 31 ayes and 30 noes, and the motion is therefore resolved in the affirmative. The correct result will be reflected in the <inline font-style="italic">Journals of the Senate</inline>.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BUDGET</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>BUDGET</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration by Estimates Committees</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator McGRATH</name>
    <name.id>217241</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I present additional information received by the Community Affairs Legislation Committee relating to estimates:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Additional estimates 2018-19—Community Affairs Legislation Committee—Additional information received between 2 April and 31 July 2019—Health portfolio.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Budget estimates 2019-20—Community Affairs Legislation Committee—Additional information—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Department of Human Services.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Health portfolio.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Social Services portfolio.</para></quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE</title>
        <page.no>75</page.no>
        <type>ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS ON NOTICE</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Asylum Seekers</title>
          <page.no>75</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I table a response to a question taken on notice during question time on 11 September 2019 asked by Senator Green and relating to a migration matter, and seek leave to have the document incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave is granted.</para>
<para> <inline font-style="italic">The </inline> <inline font-style="italic">answer</inline> <inline font-style="italic"> read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">Dear Mr President</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I write with regard to a question I took on notice from Senator Green during Question Time on Thursday, 11 September 2019 on the matter of a meeting between Ms Fredericks and the Prime Minister.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I can advise that the Minister for Home Affairs will receive the petition through the normal petitions process through the Parliament.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I have copied this letter to Senator Green.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Kind regards</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Mathias Cormann</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Minister for Finance</para></quote>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>BILLS</title>
        <page.no>76</page.no>
        <type>BILLS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Combatting Child Sexual Exploitation Legislation Amendment Bill 2019, Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill 2019, Treasury Laws Amendment (2018 Superannuation Measures No. 1) Bill 2019, Veterans' Affairs Legislation Amendment (Partner Service Pension and Other Measures) Bill 2019</title>
          <page.no>76</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.text>
          <body style="" xmlns:pic="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/picture" xmlns:r="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/officeDocument/2006/relationships" xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:a="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/main" xmlns:w="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/wordprocessingml/2006/main" background="" xmlns:wp="http://schemas.openxmlformats.org/drawingml/2006/wordprocessingDrawing" xmlns:aml="http://schemas.microsoft.com/aml/2001/core" xmlns:wx="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/word/2003/auxHint" xmlns:w10="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word">
            <p>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6376">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Combatting Child Sexual Exploitation Legislation Amendment Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6350">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
              <a type="Bill" href="r6368">
                <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                  <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Treasury Laws Amendment (2018 Superannuation Measures No. 1) Bill 2019</span>
                </p>
              </a>
            </p>
            <a type="Bill" href="r6385">
              <p style="direction:ltr;unicode-bidi:normal;" class="HPS-SubDebate">
                <span class="HPS-SubDebate">Veterans' Affairs Legislation Amendment (Partner Service Pension and Other Measures) Bill 2019</span>
              </p>
            </a>
          </body>
        </subdebate.text><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>First Reading</title>
            <page.no>76</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:03</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>These bills are being introduced together. After debate on the motion for the second reading has been adjourned, I shall move a motion to have the bills listed separately on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper</inline>. I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills may proceed without formalities, may be taken together and be now read a first time.</para></quote>
<para>Question agreed to.</para>
<para>Bills read a first time.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Second Reading</title>
            <page.no>76</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:04</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator HUME</name>
    <name.id>266499</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That these bills be now read a second time.</para></quote>
<para>I seek leave to have the second reading speeches incorporated in <inline font-style="italic">Hansard</inline>.</para>
<para>Leave granted.</para>
<para class="italic"> <inline font-style="italic">The speeches read as follows—</inline></para>
<quote><para class="block">COMBATTING CHILD SEXUAL EXPLOITATION LEGISLATION AMENDMENT BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Combatting Child Sexual Exploitation Legislation Amendment Bill 2019 is another example of the steps this Government is taking to protect children from all forms of sexual exploitation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is an unfortunate reality that sexual predators seek to target the most vulnerable members of society. These practices are vile and we must constantly review our laws to ensure they are well suited to targeting any emerging forms of child sexual abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will increase the protection of children by:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">responding to key recommendations from the Royal Commission into Institutional Responses to Child Sexual Abuse, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">addressing operational difficulties the Australian Federal Police, Australian Border Force and Commonwealth Director of Public Prosecutions are facing in investigating and prosecuting new trends in child exploitation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Failing to report and failing to protect</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In December 2017, the Royal Commission released its Final Report which detailed too many instances of people, who had been entrusted with looking after Australia's children, doing too little to protect those children from unimaginable harm. When vulnerable people were being subjected to sickening abuse, these people knew of the harrowing circumstances and did nothing. Rather than reporting to police and taking protective action, they turned a blind eye or even took actions to conceal the abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In line with the recommendations of the Royal Commission, this Bill will introduce two new offences into the Criminal Code to criminalise Commonwealth officers who exercise care, supervision or authority over children and fail to report child sexual abuse, or negligently fail to reduce or remove the risk of child sexual abuse to those children.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These reforms send a clear message: the safety of our children should always be put first. The Commonwealth has zero tolerance for child sexual abuse and expects all Commonwealth officers who are charged with caring and supervising children to fulfil their obligations to protect those children.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Persistent child sexual abuse overseas</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This zero tolerance extends to the actions of Australians while they are overseas.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is common for sexual deviants to travel to foreign jurisdictions where criminal laws and child protection frameworks are weak, and opportunities to exploit vulnerable children are abundant.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In response to other recommendations of the Royal Commission, the Bill strengthens the laws in the Criminal Code for persistent child sexual abuse committed overseas by removing difficulties associated with prosecuting repeated instances of abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Royal Commission highlighted that it is often the worst forms of offending – the repeated, regular and ongoing sexual abuse of children – that are the most difficult to prove. This is because child victims of this kind of sustained exploitation commonly have difficulties distinguishing between particular occasions of abuse.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments address these difficulties by reducing the number of occasions required to prove the offence. This helps to ensure perpetrators of persistent sexual abuse against vulnerable children overseas are not evading justice.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Defence for overseas child sex offences and forced marriage</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In another effort to hold Australians predators more accountable for sexual crimes against children overseas, the Bill restricts the ability of offenders to escape culpability by claiming they were legally married to the child. Closing this loophole is crucial, as some countries permit girls as young as 10 to marry.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also strengthen the existing forced marriage offences to ensure they explicitly capture all marriages involving children under 16. Child marriage is a pernicious practice that seriously harms the development and wellbeing of victims, with disproportionate impacts on girls and young women. Children trapped in early marriages are often subject to physical and mental abuse, rape and forced pregnancy. The Bill sends a clear message that this morally reprehensible practice will not be tolerated.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Child abuse material, child pornography material and child-like sex dolls</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also strengthens the Commonwealth framework of offences to ensure a comprehensive, technology-neutral and future focused response to all forms of child pornography material and child abuse material. In particular, the Bill will clarify the law to ensure that the abhorrent new trend of child-like sex dolls, used to simulate sexual intercourse with children, is clearly and robustly stamped out in Australia.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also introduce two new offences for possessing or controlling child pornography or child abuse material in the form of data stored on a computer or data storage device. Every single time child abuse material or child pornography material is viewed, the child portrayed in that material is re-victimised and their trauma compounded. We must strive to ensure our laws protect children from the dangers posed by abusers who operate online.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These offences will ensure that child sexual abuse is appropriately criminalised and penalised at a Commonwealth level, and will help to achieve better, more consistent outcomes for Australian survivors.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">By introducing these offences into the Criminal Code, the Bill will also give Commonwealth prosecutors the tools they need to bring perpetrators to justice for the full range of their online offending. This can include anything from obtaining child abuse images via the internet, to storing those images locally or remotely, to sending material onto third parties.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block"> <inline font-style="italic">Conclusion</inline></para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I urge my colleagues to support the passage of this critical legislation. Together we can demonstrate we are committed to ensuring children can grow up free from the evil of sexual abuse and exploitation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">CRIMES LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (POLICE POWERS AT AIRPORTS) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Government is committed to ensuring that our police can continue to protect the thousands of Australians that transit through the airport network every day.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">It is clear that Australia's airports remain an attractive target for terrorists and other nefarious criminal actors. While Australia already has strong and comprehensive aviation security, we need to remain ahead of this very real and evolving threat.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Crimes Legislation Amendment (Police Powers at Airports) Bill will help to ensure that Australia's aviation network remains among the safest in the world. This Bill will give police broader powers to conduct identity checks at major Australian airports, and issue a move on direction where it is reasonably necessary to safeguard the public and safe operation of the airport.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">With the amendments contained in the Bill, a person on the premises of a major airport may be issued with a direction to provide evidence of identification only where a constable or Australian Federal Police protective service officer:</para></quote>
<list>suspects on reasonable grounds that a person has committed, is committing, or intends to commit an offence against a law of the Commonwealth, a law of a Territory, or a law of a State having a federal aspect, punishable by imprisonment for 12 months or more, or</list>
<list>considers on reasonable grounds that it is necessary to give the direction to safeguard the public order and safe operation of a major airport, including the safety of any persons at the airport or on connecting flights.</list>
<quote><para class="block">This new power is based on advice from the Australian Federal Police that the current requirement to suspect that a person is about to commit, or has committed, a criminal offence before conducting an airport ID check is no longer fit-for-purpose. Police intelligence or observations that a person is behaving suspiciously in the airport – for example, by taking photos or videos of security screening points – will not always meet the necessary threshold. This is not satisfactory in today's threat environment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill will also empower police officers to direct that a person leave the aviation environment, or not take a flight, for up to 24 hours.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new move-on power will only be available to police in a limited range of circumstances, including where it is reasonably necessary to prevent or disrupt serious criminal activity at airports or on a flight, or to safeguard the public order and safe operation of these airports. A person may also be directed to move on where they fail to comply with an identity check or a police direction to stop.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Finally, the Bill will create new criminal offences for failing to comply with an identity check, move-on or stop direction, punishable by a fine of up to $4,200. To ensure there are appropriate safeguards on the use of these powers, the Bill will also contain requirements for police officers to comply with certain duties in exercising the new powers – including appropriately identifying themselves and informing a person that failure to comply with a direction may constitute an offence.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">A patchwork of Commonwealth, State and Territory laws currently apply across Australian airports. The Bill will address some of this complexity by giving state and territory police and Australian Federal Police officers, including protective service officers, consistent and appropriate powers to manage risks that are unique to the aviation environment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The new powers will be available in all Australian capital city airports, as well as Alice Springs, Gold Coast, Townsville and Launceston airports, and any additional airports that the responsible Minister determines into the future. In practice, the decision about additional airports at which the new powers may be exercised will be based on operational advice from the Australian Federal Police. The Australian Federal Police has already indicated that Cairns Airport is also intended to be covered by this scheme.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill was considered in detail by several parliamentary committees before Parliament was prorogued. In particular, I would like to thank the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Intelligence and Security for its contributions, and confirm that the Bill has been amended to implement the recommendations of this Committee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments are also consistent with the views expressed by the Parliamentary Joint Committee on Human Rights and the Senate Standing Committee for the Scrutiny of Bills as part of their inquiries into the Bill. The Bill has clearly been considered in detail and, as a result, represents a balanced approach to amending the powers of our law enforcement agencies, while recognising the evolving threat environment at Australia's major airports.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">In particular, the Bill now includes an explicit statement that the new identity checking and move-on powers are not intended to interfere with the right to peaceful assembly and do not give police the ability to disrupt or quell a protest that is peaceful and does not affect the public order and safe operation of the airport. The Bill also ensures that a person subject to a move-on direction will be notified of their right to apply for judicial review or an interlocutory order, including the procedure for urgent or expedited applications.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This Bill is further evidence of the Government's commitment to keeping the travelling public safe and secure and ensuring Australia is a world-leader in aviation security. It will provide our law enforcement agencies with the tools and powers they need to do their job effectively – protecting Australia's airports and its citizens from serious criminal and security threats.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">TREASURY LAWS AMENDMENT (2018 SUPERANNUATION MEASURES NO. 1) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Coalition Government is introducing safeguards to ensure the integrity of the superannuation system and streamline compliance with the Superannuation Guarantee.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill introduces an employer shortfall exemption certificate for certain employees with multiple employers. Currently, employees can inadvertently breach the concessional contributions cap from compulsory contributions where they have multiple employers.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">This measure will allow certain employees to avoid this outcome by applying to the Commissioner of Taxation for an exemption certificate in relation to at least one of their employers. A certificate will mean that their employer does not have to make Superannuation Guarantee contributions for them for up to one year. It will also mean that employees are not forced to breach their concessional cap. Instead, these employees can choose to negotiate with their employer to receive the higher remuneration.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">To be eligible for a certificate, an employee must be likely to have excess concessional contributions for the financial year and have a least one other employer who is required to make superannuation guarantee contributions for them in that year. This targets the measure to those employees likely to breach the concessional cap because they have multiple employers. It also ensures that employees still receive Superannuation Guarantee contributions from their employment.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill introduces reforms to further support the operation and integrity of the Superannuation Taxation Reform Package announced in the 2016-17 Budget. These measures ensure our superannuation system is fair, sustainable and used for its core purpose. The amendments improve confidence in the system by reducing the extent of tax minimisation and estate planning in superannuation.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments address the possibility of self‑managed superannuation fund members' circumventing the cap on tax-free retirement phase assets through limited recourse borrowing arrangements or non-arm's length expenditures.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill includes the outstanding value of limited recourse borrowing arrangements – or LRBAs - in the Total Superannuation Balance of SMSF members who are at particular risk of entering into certain tax minimisation strategies. This measure will stop those members using LRBAs to circumvent the $1.6 million limit on non-concessional contributions.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Bill also extends the existing non-arm's length income rules to capture non-arm's length expenses. This will ensure that superannuation funds cannot circumvent the contribution caps by using non-arm's length expenditure to inflate their overall income, for example, by borrowing money from a member at a reduced interest rate.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Full details of the measures are contained in the Explanatory Memorandum.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">VETERANS' AFFAIRS LEGISLATION AMENDMENT (PARTNER SERVICE PENSION AND OTHER MEASURES) BILL 2019</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I am pleased to introduce the <inline font-style="italic">Veterans</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Affairs Legislation Amendment (Partner Service Pension and Other Measures) Bill 2019</inline>. The Bill is designed to improve outcomes for former partners of veterans, and separately, extend benefits available to Australian Defence Force (ADF) members who served on Submarine Special Operations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">As the Minister for Veterans and Defence Personnel, I recognise the Australian community has a clear expectation that veterans and their families will be well looked after, and of course, as a Government, we are absolutely committed to putting veterans and their families first.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 1 of this Bill will improve financial outcomes for the former partners of veterans. Schedule 2 of this Bill extends benefits available to ADF members who served on Submarine Special Operations. Schedule 3 of this Bill is a technical amendment to align marriage related definitions in veterans' legislation with the definition of marriage made by the <inline font-style="italic">Marriage Amendment (Definition and Religious Freedoms) Act 2017</inline> (the Marriage Amendment Act).</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments to the <inline font-style="italic">Veterans</inline><inline font-style="italic">'</inline><inline font-style="italic"> Entitlements Act 1986</inline> (VEA) under Schedule 1 align all of the Partner Service Pension provisions for former married and non-married partners to ensure equity in treatment. This will ensure a modern legislative provision that recognises the differences in relationship types and removes any discrimination. Once this Bill is passed, all eligible former partners of veterans will remain on Partner Service Pension after separation from their veteran partner for a period of up to 12 months.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Additionally, where special domestic circumstances apply, including domestic abuse, legislative instrument amendments will allow all former partners to remain eligible to receive Partner Service Pension until they enter into a new relationship. This preventative measure, part of the Government's <inline font-style="italic">Fourth National Action Plan to Reduce Violence against Women and their Children</inline>, will assist partners to leave a violent relationship by providing them with financial support.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The amendments to the VEA under Schedule 2 will extend the benefits available to ADF members who served on Submarine Special Operations. Operations between 31 December 1992 and 12 May 1997 will be recognised as operational and qualifying service, giving access to the Disability Pension and assessment of claims for treatment and compensation, as well as eligibility for the Service Pension at age 60 and the Gold Card at age 70.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Once this Bill is passed, for those veterans involved in Submarine Special Operations between 31 December 1992 and 12 May 1997, their service will be recognised as operational and qualifying service under the VEA. This will allow access to the Disability Pension and assessment of claims for treatment and compensation, as well as eligibility for the Service Pension at age 60 and the Gold Card at age 70.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Further, the period between 13 May 1997 and 30 June 2006 will not require legislative change, and will be subject to future determinations of non-warlike service, providing further support to eligible ADF members involved in Submarine Special Operations.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Schedule 3 is a technical amendment arising from the changes to the definition of marriage made by the Marriage Amendment Act.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">The Marriage Amendment Act amended the <inline font-style="italic">Marriage Act 1961</inline> (Cth) to remove the restrictions that limit marriage in Australia to the union of a man and a woman and allowed two people the freedom to marry in Australia, regardless of their sex or gender.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">These amendments will mean better outcomes for veterans and their families.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">I commend this Bill.</para></quote>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
<para>Ordered that the bills be listed on the <inline font-style="italic">Notice Paper </inline>as separate orders of the day.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>MOTIONS</title>
        <page.no>79</page.no>
        <type>MOTIONS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Economy</title>
          <page.no>79</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:05</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>At the request of Senator Gallagher, I move:</para>
<quote><para class="block">That the Senate—</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(a) notes that:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) economic growth is the slowest it has been since 2008 when Labor navigated Australia through the global financial crisis,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) wages growth has hit record lows,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) 1.8 million Australians are looking for work or for more work to combat the rising cost of living and increasing pressures on their household budgets,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) living standards and productivity are going backwards, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) the Morrison Government has no plan to deal with the domestic economic challenges, leaving us unnecessarily exposed to global shocks, and to support Australians struggling to meet their weekly costs; and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(b) calls on the Federal Government to properly outline an economic plan that supports the floundering economy and better safeguards it from global risks, done in a fiscally-sustainable way, which could include:</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(i) delivering more infrastructure spending now to maintain jobs and stimulate economic growth,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(ii) bringing forward part of the income tax cuts scheduled to commence on 1 July 2022,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iii) reviewing and responsibly increasing Newstart to put more money in the pockets of those most likely to spend it in the economy,</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(iv) implementing the Australian Investment Guarantee to incentivise and boost business investment, and</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">(v) developing an urgent and comprehensive plan to boost wages, starting with restoring penalty rates.</para></quote>
<para>I rise to support the motion. I believe that it outlines the context of our current economic moment. Economic growth is the slowest it has been since the global financial crisis. Wage growth is at a record low. There are 1.8 million Australians looking for work or looking for more work. Living standards and labour productivity are going backwards. Our economy is in a malaise, and the government are oddly mirroring that malaise. They all look so bored. Following the recent election, they're like the dog that caught the car.</para>
<para>Nobody embodies this malaise more than the Leader of the Government in the Senate, Senator Cormann, the Minister for Finance. In my observation Senator Cormann is a man who needs a plan, but the government simply don't have a plan. They used to; the 2014 budget was their plan. It was a bad plan and it was a plan that was thoroughly rejected by the Australian people, but at least it looked like a plan. It was Senator Cormann's plan. He loved the plan. Remember how happy he looked on the news, puffing on his cigar with the long-forgotten former member for North Sydney? The budget was a fulfilment of Senator Cormann's reason for coming into public office: to dramatically reduce the size of government. It was a British Conservatives-style austerity program and it was designed to entrench poverty and disadvantage.</para>
<para>We should try and remember what was in the 2014 budget: the Medicare co-payment; increasing the pension age to 70; cuts to schools and hospitals; kicking people under 25 off Newstart; the deregulation of universities—Senator Rennick might remember the $100,000 degrees; ending subsidies to the car industry, with 40,000 jobs in the Australian car industry gone since that budget; and cutting programs like Landcare in half. It was economic vandalism. But, more importantly, it was cruel. It shows us what the modern Liberal Party really are and the values that drive them—vicious, nasty and without the moral imagination to consider how their vision of society would treat the most vulnerable.</para>
<para>There's a spectre haunting the Morrison government—the spectre of poor old Senator Cormann. You can see the sadness in his eyes when you look across the chamber. He misses the certainty of a plan. His housemate, Peter Dutton, seems to have coped okay. People on this side assumed that Senator Cormann's sadness was the result of his humiliation 12 months ago. But I think, having sat here for a few months now, it's because he misses the certainty of a plan.</para>
<para>Mr Dutton, the member for Dickson, seems to be okay. He's moved on. He's hitting the gym. I think, when Senator Cormann returns to the flat that they share, the member for Dickson will be there playing video games, living life large. He even appears in ads for white-supremacist car dealerships. Is there a more perfect avatar for the hard Right of the Liberal Party than a white-supremacist car dealership owner? Minister Cormann isn't adapting. He doesn't have any hobbies. He still feels that itch, that pathological drive for social Darwinism that defines that part of the Liberal Party. The government don't have a plan. They no longer seem to have any real ambition for the country. But the values that drive them are just as cruel as those that drove the 2014 budget.</para>
<para>This week, the Prime Minister refused to meet with a delegation of Newstart recipients. He refuses to raise the rate of Newstart or even consider a review. Even though almost every stakeholder group in the Australian community knows that Newstart must be raised, he considers that 'unfunded empathy'. In doing so, not only has he ignored calls from charities and groups such as ACOSS; he's ignored the advice of John Howard, the business community, every non-government organisation worth its salt and many people on his own backbench. Working-class people who can't find a job desperately need Newstart to be raised.</para>
<para>Our economy desperately needs some stimulus and our economy desperately needs a plan. But the Morrison government's solution to the indignities of unemployment and underemployment—indignities that Senator Cormann has never suffered—and the indignity of being excluded by an economy that's left large parts of the Australian community behind is to force unemployed people to do drug tests. The Australian people deserve leadership that's capable of responding to the economic crisis that we face to imagine a country that gives dignity and empathy to those who need it the most.</para>
<para>That means recognising the condition that the Australian economy is in. It's the new normal for the Australian economy. Economic growth is the slowest it has been since 2008. Many economists say—and it's a matter of public record—that, while our growth is so anaemic, it is only being sustained by population growth and, if it weren't for that population growth, the Australian economy would be in recession. We are, indeed, today in a per capita recession. Wages growth has hit record lows, and this government has no economic plan to deal with it and no wages policy to overcome the challenge. The 1.8 million Australians looking for work, or for more work, are struggling to put food on the table and to pay rent or their mortgages. Living standards and productivity continue to go backwards.</para>
<para>There isn't an index that's pointing in the wrong way that the Minister for Finance, Senator Cormann, won't quibble with, argue with and challenge. But when the government were confronted with the HILDA report that showed that living standards are decreasing and that household income is decreasing and has been decreasing now for quite some time the silence was deafening. The silence was followed by an obscurantist attempt to try to deny the real truth of the position that was in front of them. What ought to happen is that the government ought to realise that what they have in front of them is an economic emergency, that it requires action, that it requires capability and that it requires a plan.</para>
<para>The Labor Party in opposition, for its part, has put forward a plan—and it's a plan that deserves the consideration and support of the Senate and the government—to bring forward infrastructure funding, deliver more infrastructure funding, make sure that jobs are sourced locally, bring forward part of the income tax cuts scheduled to commence on 1 July 2022 and review and responsibly increase Newstart so that people on Newstart can have some dignity. One thing we know is that expenditure on Newstart will flow straight back into the Australian economy and be spent in the supermarkets and on the high streets of every country town across Australia. And we would develop and deliver an urgent plan to boost wages, starting with restoring penalty rates.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:15</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>The Australian economy is on the road and moving forward. It reminds me of the <inline font-style="italic">Mad Max</inline> scene with the V8 Interceptor charging forward. I find it interesting that Labor Senator Ayres should accuse us of closing down the car industry, because back in 1987 it was actually Button and his tariff plans that put it under pressure.</para>
<para>Since coming into government in September 2013, we've added 1.4 million jobs, of which 80 per cent are full-time positions. But, if we want to do the DeLorean story here and go back in time, let's talk about what happened under the previous, Labor, government: when every budget blew out by billions of dollars to the extent that, over the cumulative period of Labor's time in government, their budgets blew out by $80 billion—$80 billion.</para>
<para>If we're talking about our low-income workers, let's talk about the minimum wage for the last three years. In 2017, it increased by 3.3 per cent; in 2018, it increased by 3½ per cent; and, in this year alone, it has increased by another three per cent. So, cumulatively, over the last three years it has increased by a compounded rate of over 10 per cent. And that matters, because, at the end of the day, a good government always looks after its hardworking people. We saw that in the last election results. The battlers decided to abandon the Labor Party because they knew that the Labor Party had abandoned the battlers. The Labor Party no longer stand up for hardworking people. The Labor Party would rather sit around and blame everyone else for the world's problems. That's not the aspirational spirit of working-class Australians.</para>
<para>As for a decrease in penalty rates, I totally reject that. Next month, we're going to see the Saturday work casual rate increase from 140 per cent to 145 per cent, and, in the following year, to 150 per cent. For Monday-to-Friday evening work after 6 pm, we're going to see it increase from 130 per cent to 150 per cent by March 2021. So, on top of that compounded 10 per cent over the last three years for the minimum wage, that is well above the rate of inflation. It is to the Morrison government's credit that we have been able to deliver a pay rise for our low-income workers.</para>
<para>Another interesting fact is that in the last six years, under a coalition government, the amount of revenue collected in company tax receipts has increased from $67 billion to an estimated $95.6 billion in the last financial year—an increase of over 42 per cent. So we're going after the big end of town, and we're not abandoning the battlers.</para>
<para>We've also got some good numbers coming through for the trade surplus. In the last quarter, for the month of June we saw a trade surplus of $8 billion, and a current account surplus—for the first time since 1975—of $5.8 billion. So we've got a win-win. For the first time in almost 50 years, we've actually seen our current account position improve. That's because we are prepared to back mining, we are prepared to back coal, we are prepared to back iron ore and we are prepared to back gas. That's the difference between this side of the chamber and that side of the chamber. Those opposite won't take advantage of our vast natural wealth. They'd rather keep it in the ground and let future generations go without.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Sterle</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>You should come to WA, mate, a great mining state.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>It's a great state, absolutely. I just credited WA.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, please address your comments through the chair. Senator Sterle, perhaps fewer disorderly comments.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Sterle</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Acting Deputy President, I will take that advice and I apologise. Senator Rennick, tell the truth!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I have a point of order. He's just told me to tell the truth. So what's the issue here? What have I said that's misleading?</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's not a point of order; that's a debating point.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Sterle interjecting—</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Sterle, Senator Rennick has the call.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>What I want to talk about is infrastructure and the great contribution that this government is making to the state of Queensland, especially with regard to roads. Just last weekend in Toowoomba, one of my favourite towns, we saw the opening of the Toowoomba bypass. The Toowoomba crossing is a $1.6 billion project that had 80 per cent of its funding from the federal government. We have also seen up to $635 million invested in the Warrego Highway. That's the highway I grew up on; that's my yellow brick road. So we have a number of new overtaking lanes coming in there. We also have the Chinchilla open level rail crossing upgrade, and we have $19 million being spent on that. We have the Oakey-Miles upgrade, and we have $43.5 million spent on that. We have $63.5 million spent on the Dalby to Miles pavement widening. We have the Oakey to Miles safety upgrade—another $11 million.</para>
<para>I'm going to go through the completed projects. We have the Dalby to Miles overtaking lanes, the Carroll Creek culvert replacement, the Brigalow to Chinchilla upgrade, the Dalby eastern access upgrade and the Dalby western access upgrade. What's interesting about this is that the federal government is putting money into the Darling Downs. This is the place the gas is coming out of. This is the place where the beautiful black soil creates the wealth. It creates all the wheat and barley and cotton that gets exported for dollars for this country. My question is: is the state Labor government putting money into those areas? I think not. What I have seen those guys do is shut down our maternity ward, amalgamate our councils and bring in poker machines. What a terrible legacy state Labor has left to our state.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Then there's Jackie Trad.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Then there's Jackie Trad. I won't go there. I'll stay relevant to the question.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Thank you, Senator Rennick. That's appreciated.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>We can stick to the facts and win the election.</para>
<para>The next thing is the government budget looks like it will be in surplus this year, for the first time—if not last year. We'll find out in a couple of weeks. Net debt has peaked, and we're starting to pay it down. We have also retained our AAA credit rating, which under the current circumstances, with the trade war that's going on, is, I think, a fantastic effort. Our employment is still growing at twice the average OECD rate, and that's quite a good effort.</para>
<para>With regard to the tax cuts, we have actually brought in the low-income offset rebate and a middle-income offset rebate, and they're kicking in this year. We're pleased to have legislated for significant tax cuts in the future. If we can maintain a strong budget position—and we'll see what happens as to future tax cuts—I'm optimistic that we can bring some more in there. We also have a record $100 billion infrastructure pipeline. As I have just mentioned, we're spending a lot of money here in my home state of Queensland, and I know that we're also spending a lot of money on the New South Wales Pacific Highway. I drove down there last week. This time next year we should have a fully dual-carriage highway all the way between Brisbane and Sydney. That's our second-busiest road, behind the Hume Highway. Most of that's been built in the last six years, since the coalition has come to power, and that's a fantastic effort for the people of southern Queensland and northern New South Wales, who use those roads all the time in a very heavily populated area. That's just one of the many areas. We've also improved a lot of roads around the Gold Coast and the Sunshine Coast, and we're now looking forward to improving the roads above Gympie on the way to Rockhampton. That's something that I know both Senator Scarr and I will be backing—to push further duplication of the highway up to Rockhampton and the Wide Bay area, which is one of Australia's fastest-growing areas.</para>
<para>I think the other thing that's worth noting in regard to small business is that we have a $525 million skills package which is going to deliver up to 80,000 new apprenticeships over five years in priority areas of skills shortages. Isn't it fantastic that we're getting back to our skills? We're going to bring back our tradies, which is something I'm very passionate about. We've also increased the instant asset write-off to $30,000, which is another great help for our small-business people. We've also reduced payment times down to 20 days; that's another good one.</para>
<para>I want to touch on the business tax cuts that we brought into parliament in the last term, reducing taxes to 25c in the dollar for small businesses with turnovers up to $50 million. Hopefully that should get our Australian-owned businesses on the record growing. I think we can see that with the fact that we've now got back into a trade surplus as well as a current account surplus and also a budget surplus. If we get that, that will be a record which we'll be very proud of; we'll have a triple surplus. So I'm looking forward to the next 12 months.</para>
<para>Unlike Labor over here, I won't talk down the economy. I won't talk down the Australian people, because I believe in their aspirations and their dreams, and I think that we can see out there in the results in the last election that the Australian people would agree with that. They turned their backs on the big-spending Labor Party and the constant vilification of our hardworking miners and farmers. These are the guys that actually create the wealth in the country. These people over here want to bite the very hand that feeds them, and that's not the way this country was built. This country was built on the back of hard work, not sitting around in ivory towers in the cities and saying, 'We're going to solve the world fixing up climate change or whatever.' No, there's no substitute for hard work, Senator Sterle—no substitute for hard work.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>247512</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Rennick, through the chair. You have to address your remarks through the chair. Thank you.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Sorry. So I think we do have a plan, and the plan is showing in the results. As I just said, we have a trade surplus and a current account surplus and will have a government surplus. When we've got a plan like that, what we've got to do is keep it going straight and forward, and that's what we're doing. We're not promising to save the whales or anything like that. We've got our eye on the road, and that's where we intend to stay.</para>
<para>The constant talking-down by these people of the economy is putting their own self-interest in front of the people. They want to talk down the economy. They want to scare the people from spending, but we've got record participation rates. We've got a solid employment growth rate—twice the growth rate of the rest of the OECD—and that's quite the achievement given the trade wars that are going on now, I think. It's interesting that they have to cry crocodile tears over Australia's unemployed, because, had they been elected, they would have sent a wrecking ball through the construction industry and the mining industry.</para>
<para>Despite the global headwinds, the Australian economy is doing not just well but spectacularly well. We've seen reported in the media that the Labor Party are now saying they've got to go back and revise their own policies. They're at a loss. By what percentage are you going to reduce carbon emissions? That's the big question we all want answered. What's their newest plan to save the world? The answer is: they don't know. They don't know, do they? They haven't got a clue. As Senator Cormann said earlier today, they'll still in their seven stages of grieving, wondering what went wrong.</para>
<para class="italic">Senator Scarr interjecting—</para>
</continue>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's right. Triple surplus! I can't wait until we get to that: current account surplus, trade surplus and government surplus. That is going to be something special. And you guys over there are talking it down because you can't admit that this government is doing a fantastic job at managing the economy. It is quite the achievement. It's a good way for me to start my political career, to be in a government with such a strong set of numbers: a strong employment rate, with a record 1.4 million people in jobs, and a high participation rate. That's a reflection of the confidence that people have in this economy. They haven't given up.</para>
<para>The Labor Party has given up. They don't know what their plan is now. What percentage are you going to reduce carbon emissions by? The left faction doesn't want to do this, does it? You'd go to 100 per cent if you could. Good luck with that! You'll bring the economy to its knees. You're worried about actually stopping growth; mate, you'll kill the economy. I know what that's like, having been in Queensland and watched what the state Labor government has done to Queensland over the last 30 years.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Shameful!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Shameful! What have we got? We've got the sale of Queensland Motorways and the port at Abbot Point in 2011; the sale of QR National, the Port of Brisbane and forestry plantations in 2010; the sale of the Cairns and Mackay airports and the Brisbane Airport in 2008; and the sale of wind energy assets in 2007. Why would you sell your wind energy assets if you believe in reducing carbon emissions? It doesn't make any sense. Then there is the sale of gas assets: Golden Casket, Powerdirect and Sun Gas in 2007; and Sun Retail and Allgas in 2006. What's so sad about this is that, after basically selling all of the Queensland assets, shutting down the maternity wards, amalgamating the councils—</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>In the biggest mining boom in Queensland's history.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes—and in the middle of the GFC. When these last assets were sold between 2007 and 2011, that was in the middle of the GFC. So not only did you sell all the assets, you sold them at rock-bottom prices. When I first moved to Brisbane in 1988, Queensland was the fastest-growing state in the country. Now it's one of the slowest, because state Labor doesn't have a plan and hasn't got a clue. Heaven forbid we ever get federal Labor in, because we don't want federal Labor doing to Australia what Queensland Labor did to Queensland.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Scarr</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The deadly double!</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator RENNICK</name>
    <name.id>283596</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes. It's a great neoliberalism plan: let's sell all the assets. Let's just sell assets. That's not an economic plan, but we shouldn't be surprised, because that was on the back of the Hawke-Keating era—sell CBA, sell Qantas, sell CSL. The great union leader sold his soul for neoliberalism—got sucked into it, didn't he? It's interesting: 30 years ago today we brought in the LNG plants and got LNG up and running—and what did the Hawke-Keating Labor government do? They brought in HECS on teachers and nurses. What a sell-out! Don't hear much about that, do we? It's a bit like how we don't hear much about the great effort of Lawrence Springborg in fixing up Queensland Health in 2015. What a great effort after Queensland Labor couldn't even pay the wages of the nurses! Think about that. Don't let it happen. Thank heavens the federal coalition is in power—and I can't wait for that triple surplus. Let's get Queensland Labor out of power before the last person has to turn out the lights.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:35</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>As a servant to the people of Queensland and Australia I wish to make a few remarks about Senator Gallagher's motion—firstly, her opening paragraph. Let's be clear that mining, and particularly China, carried Australia through the global financial crisis, and Labor destroyed our cash balance. We may point to rosy employment numbers, but what about the underemployment that's going on right now? What about cost of living and stagnant wages? These are the result of past neglect by both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party. Growth now is due to past productive capacity, and our low growth now is due to lack of investment and destruction of our productive capacity in the past. Under the Liberal-Labor duopoly, in rural Queensland, for example, where primary agricultural industries are very important—forestry, fishing, farming, grazing—property rights were stolen by the Howard federal government in 1996, working with the Rob Borbidge National Party government, then the Peter Beattie Labor government and then the Palaszczuk and Trad government—and the Newman government did not rescind it. The rural sector lost its property rights—fundamental to productive capacity.</para>
<para>We've seen a lack of investment in essential water assets. A friend of mine was talking to a prominent Liberal leader—I won't mention his name—in this country just a couple of weeks ago at a meeting and asked him, 'Why didn't you invest in dams 10 years ago?' He replied, 'Because we didn't need them 10 years ago.' This is the thinking that is stopping our country. Then we look at the self-destruction of our energy sector. We went from the lowest electricity prices in the world to the highest under both the Liberals and Labor. It started with the National Energy Market, which started before John Howard, but John Howard's government put in place the Renewable Energy Target and the stealing of property rights without compensation, and was the first to put in place a policy invoking a carbon tax, a carbon dioxide trading scheme. I'll talk more about those energy prices in a minute.</para>
<para>We've also seen in Queensland soil runoff legislation, supposedly to protect the farmers, but it's based on nonsense. It is hurting the farmers and will seriously suffocate the farmers in the near future. Our fishing industry has been decimated by UN guidelines adopted by both Labor and Liberal. Our forestry industry is being decimated now—people with the axe hanging over their head. This is what's happening to the productive capacity in our rural sector. What about our manufacturing sector? Car manufacturing has been shut down. Steel mills are declining. We have two left now. Mining is under the gun. Mining is being choked. Manufacturing was sent overseas under both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party. Our economic productive capacity has been decimated. This is not growth for the future. People are choked by cost-of-living rises and stagnant wages. We see higher house prices. We now live in a country that has just been through the world's greatest-ever resources boom, and our young people can't afford to buy houses. We see shops shut, as I said the other day, from Bamaga south, right through to Burleigh, and west. We see it right across Queensland. We see shops being shut and we see businesses being shut—particularly in the rural areas.</para>
<para>So let's have a look at some of the policies put in place by the Liberal-Labor duopoly. Let us look at energy policy—and, by the way, electricity and energy are primary assets; they're primary to everything that happens in our society. The No. 1 factor that has caused our dramatic increase in material wealth in our society in the West over the last 170 years has been the relentless decrease in electricity prices. In the last 10 years, we've seen a doubling of the price of electricity. We've gone from having the lowest electricity prices in the world to now having among the highest—or, in fact, the highest. And that's been driven by Labor-Liberal-Green policies.</para>
<para>We currently have a renewable energy target, which requires the subsidy of renewable energy—or so-called renewables, that are really intermittent. We see that decimating the electricity sector. It's currently at 14 per cent. The Liberal-National party want to double it to 28 per cent. That is suicide. The Labor Party wants to increase it to 50 per cent—almost quadrupling it. As I said, energy is the gateway to manufacturing. Energy is the gateway to agriculture. Energy is the gateway to tertiary industry. The primacy of energy must be understood. Yet both parties are destroying it, in a mad rush to appease the Greens on climate. So their policies are similar there. It's just a matter of grade.</para>
<para>Then we have immigration. Both parties believe in big numbers of immigrants coming in. We see hospital-bed availability almost halved. We see water supplies now being choked and restrictions being put on, and our sewage water being treated and recycled as drinking water. We see restrictions on showering now being mooted by the authorities in Sydney. How can we keep living like this? We're a first world country, and we're going backwards to being a Third World country.</para>
<para>Let's talk about tax. Both the Liberal Party and Labor refuse to tackle the problem of multinational tax. They talk about it, but they don't do it. It's a very simple exercise, as we have pointed out. We've got the solutions. Instead of pretence, we need to tackle multinationals head on.</para>
<para>The fourth issue is economic management. We see the Liberal-Labor duopoly doing the same thing again—playing the same games and bribing people at every election. But nowadays it's not just the election cycle that matters; it's the 12-month budgetary cycle—bribing people to get their votes.</para>
<para>As to infrastructure, both parties are refusing to build significant, visionary dam projects that could green Queensland. And why? Because the Greens are holding over them that you can't build dams. Both the Liberal Party and the Labor Party follow the Greens' policies on energy, immigration, tax, economic management and infrastructure; they follow the Greens' policies, to get preferences.</para>
<para>I don't see a plan. I do not see a plan from either party in the Liberal-Labor duopoly. There is no concrete plan. So, when Senator Gallagher's motion says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">… the Morrison Government has no plan to deal with the domestic economic challenges—</para></quote>
<para>I agree—</para>
<quote><para class="block">leaving us unnecessarily exposed to global shocks—</para></quote>
<para>I agree—</para>
<quote><para class="block">and to support Australians struggling to meet their weekly costs …</para></quote>
<para>I agree. And the Liberal-Labor duopoly has done that. There is no plan other than: 'Follow the Greens. Build facades. Pretend to be doing things: put on a hi-vis vest, put on a hard hat, put on safety glasses and pretend you're doing something.'</para>
<para>Of course, the Liberal and Labor parties share preferences. They share preferences with each other because they'd rather put their opponent, or supposed opponent, ahead of the One Nation party. So that tells you that these people are just about ready to merge—and maybe that's what they're thinking of doing!</para>
<para>Let's have a look at building productive capacity.</para>
<para>An honourable senator interjecting—</para>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator ROBERTS</name>
    <name.id>266524</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Well, the policies are the same, so they might as well merge! Good policies need to be built on solid data. There is nowhere in the world that has justified the economic lunacy and suicide of the Greens on climate. I've challenged Senator Larissa Waters three times and she's run three times. I challenged Senator Di Natale once two days ago and he still hasn't provided a single source. There is no-one who can—not in CSIRO, not in the Bureau of Meteorology, not in the UN, not anywhere. I challenged the head of NASA, Gavin Schmidt, and he had to admit an error to me. There is no evidence anywhere. I challenge people again: you're wrecking our country based upon UN policies that are nonsense. They are crap. You have not presented any evidence to this parliament. Senator Macdonald used to sit over there. In late December 2016 he stood up and he looked across at me and said, 'I don't always agree with Senator Roberts, but I must give him credit for starting the debate on climate science that this parliament has never had.' True words. We've never debated climate science. I invite anyone to have a formal debate on the climate science.</para>
<para>We must get back to building policies on solid data—not political opinion, not spin, not headline grabbing, not political partisanship, not corruption but hard, objective data. Secondly, we must restore our Constitution that is being bypassed. We're taking duties and responsibilities off the states and we need, as former Liberal Premier of WA Richard Court said, to get back to rebuilding the Federation. The title of his work is <inline font-style="italic">Rebuilding the Federation</inline>. It was published in 1994. I recommend it to everyone. It's a very simple, short book but fundamental.</para>
<para>Thirdly, we must have comprehensive tax reform to tax multinationals and free up mobility of capital. Let's make sure that it becomes fair. We need to get back to the basics. I agree on this point: we need to bring forward the income tax cuts. If they're so good, as the Liberal Party said just a couple of months ago, let's bring them forward and get the benefit now in the productive capacity of our country. Then we have the last point in Senator Gallagher's position here: implementing increases to Newstart. What about pensions? It's one of One Nation's policies to improve significantly the age pension and other similar pensions.</para>
<para>I look at this country and I look at the people resources—resourceful, creative, innovative and entrepreneurial. We have a history of punching above our weight. I look at our people. I've managed them as coalminers. I've worked with them as farmers. They are being choked, they are being suffocated, by the federal government. I look at the resources in this country from soil to water to minerals to energy. We are now the largest energy exporter in the world, with the No. 1 position in gas and the No. 1 position in the export seaborne trade of coal—and yet we have high energy costs. How? How can that happen? We have enormous opportunity. We have enormous potential.</para>
<para>The water in the north and the water in the east of the Clarence River up the tributary can be used productively for greening the west. The Greens—the lunatic Greens—call for not building dams. Yet, if we provided water to the west, we would be able to cover the whole of western Queensland and New South Wales in green vegetation. They believe that we need to absorb carbon dioxide; I don't, because we can't control the level. But if they believe that sincerely then they should support the greening of western New South Wales and western Queensland by building dams to send the water to the west.</para>
<para>We have great people, the world's best. We have resources amongst the world's best. We have opportunity and potential. But we have wombats running the joint. That's the problem. Labor, the Liberal Party and the Greens are putting people down. It is an insult to look at what we're doing to our energy sector, the most vital sector we have in this country. Then the Liberal Party accelerates it all, seeking preferences. This country has the best people and resources in the world, and we have the lousiest leaders in the world. That is clear.</para>
<para>We're killing agriculture, choking mining and killing manufacturing. China is our biggest trading partner. China is taking our iron ore, our coal—and coal is Queensland's No. 1 export—and our gas. After these are gone, what will we have? We have to develop the productive capacity of our country. We have to invest wisely—not to get Liberal and Labor headlines—but to invest in our peoples' future. The core choice of any sane, sensible federal government must be to invest in the productive capacity for the long-term future of our country. I don't see anyone in Labor or Liberal attending to this, because they're held back by the Greens. It's time to stop looking after the Greens and to come back to integrity and start looking after the people of Australia by investing in the productive capacity of our country.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>16:50</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator POLLEY</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
    <electorate>Tasmania</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I believe the Morrison government and those opposite just think that the economy might go away or something, because they've been so reluctant to talk about the economy. Our floundering economy is desperate for leadership. Where are the Treasurer and the Prime Minister of this country? Where is the leadership? They're playing wedge politics and pointing the finger at others, but they're not showing the leadership that we so desperately need in this nation when we're talking about our economy. The floundering economy is slowing substantially. Australians are struggling. Australians are looking for and expecting to see some leadership from this government, but I'd have to say that they're sadly mistaken if they think there's going to be any leadership forthcoming anytime soon.</para>
<para>'It's the economy, stupid' are the famous words uttered during President Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential election campaign. Let's be frank: not much has changed since then. Elections are always about the economy, and they should be. The strength of the economy determines the livelihood of the majority of Australians. The strength of the economy determines whether someone can find a job and whether they can hold that job and have job security, which is why I find it so odd that the Prime Minister, the Treasurer and all of those opposite are so unwilling to discuss the issues associated with the economy.</para>
<para>This week, we've had to acknowledge that, unfortunately, the Liberal government have been in power for six years. They're in their third term now, and what have we seen? Not a very good economic report card. In fact, it is very, very disappointing reading. Economic growth is at the lowest levels since the global financial crisis, sitting at 0.6 per cent. There are 1.8 million Australians who are looking for work or for more hours. Underemployment is a crisis in this country. Wages are growing at one-sixth of the pace of profits, with the government presiding over the worst wages growth on record.</para>
<para>But that's not all. Household debt has surged to record levels, increasing to $650 billion under the Liberals. Economic growth per person is going backwards, productivity is going backwards, business investment is down 20 per cent. And these are the people who cry, 'We are the friends of business.' Well, they're not very good friends, if you ask me! Our investment in business is at the lowest level since the 1990s recession. Net debt has more than doubled. People cannot afford to get into the property market.</para>
<para>Jobs should be a priority of any government. We do not have job security and we have a skills shortage in this country. It's an epidemic. What does the government have to say about it? Nothing. In January 2019 there were 42,000 job vacancies in regional and remote Australia. What has the government done to address the skills gap and make sure people are job ready to take up those opportunities? Nothing.</para>
<para>Employment of any kind should be safe, it should be secure and it should be remunerated so the individual can improve their social standing and their economic circumstances. Over the last decade across Australia, our cities and our regions have been transforming. In our cities there's been growth in high-skilled jobs, while in rural and regional Australia lower-skilled jobs have been the jobs that have been growing. The skills gap between the cities and the regions is becoming more and more stark, along with the income and employment disparities. These aren't good things. They're certainly not good for the regional and remote communities. Underemployment, increased casualisation and securing regional jobs are three of the biggest challenges facing the Australian community not just now but in future decades. What have we heard from this government? We've heard nothing about a plan. They don't have a plan for now, they don't have a plan for tomorrow and they certainly don't have a plan for the decades to come.</para>
<para>This will only occur if we are proactive and innovative and get our education and training practices right. We need to include employers, industry associations and unions in those discussions. This is what's needed if we're to address the challenges in regional Australia. The systematic approach to targeting skills development allows for the monitoring of the labour market and forecasting trends alongside the education and training markets, as well as how skills are being used. Understanding current employment requirements across sectors within a given region is essential to understanding the skills gap within the regional economies. Regional VET institutions, including TAFE in my home state of Tasmania, are key players. They are so essential, and what have we seen over the last two Liberal governments? Attacks and cut after cut to our TAFE institutions. They don't have the plan. The trajectories aren't good, so we need to have those conversations, and they need to be had now if we're to address these challenges. Sectors and institutions are uncertain about their futures, and what they want is certainty of purpose. This uncertainty is what happens when a government spends six years pointing the finger, blaming others, shifting the blame from one to the other and playing wedge politics because all it's interested in is making excuses.</para>
<para>We know that they won the election, and they keep talking about how we on this side are still grieving about the election loss. Well, of course we're disappointed, because we know how important it is for the Australian people to have a plan for the economy and to have a plan to address the challenges that we see in regional Australia. Of course we're disappointed, because we know that there are so many Australians who have been relying on a Labor government. That challenge wasn't afforded to us, but the challenge is certainly there, and it's a real challenge. We on this side expect this government to rise to that challenge and to create certainty in people's employment and give them the opportunity to work the additional hours that they're looking for. If you're in a casual job, as we've talked about so often in this place, you can't go and get a mortgage or take out a loan to buy a new car. These are real issues that families in Australia are facing. We see rising costs in day-to-day living—the cost of food, the cost of medicine and the cost of health insurance. The cost of going to see your GP is increasing all the time.</para>
<para>Those opposite, who won the election, are still sipping their champagne and celebrating their victory, and they have every right to do that. But they also have a responsibility, after four months, to come up with a plan and to articulate that plan in this chamber and to the Australian community.</para>
<para>What we are witnessing is a Prime Minister who is the captain of a team that has no strategy. They are a team without any focus and they are a team without a plan for the future of this country. At the moment, we have a light on bills and we have a light on what this government is supposed to be doing, but what we don't have is a legislative agenda to address those challenges. We live in a wonderful country, but that doesn't mean that we don't have issues that need to be addressed, and it is the incumbent government, which is the Liberal government, that has the responsibility to demonstrate leadership in these areas of the economy.</para>
<para>We can talk about all the challenges, such as how difficult it is to get into the housing market and the uncertainty that people have about even trying to find a house to rent. In my home state, we have a housing crisis. If you're in the housing market already, that's good—for you—because house prices are going up. But, if you're a young person or somebody aspiring to get into the housing market, then it is very difficult. We have an increase in homelessness. We have, unfortunately, a casualisation of our workforce that is not healthy. These are the things that have to be addressed.</para>
<para>We met these challenges when we were in government. We had the global financial crisis and we dealt with that. We brought in a stimulus to move the economy along, which helped everyone during that period of time. But unfortunately—and it is unfortunate—those opposite don't have that same capacity to address these issues. I know they're probably still a little bit in shock that they've ended up in government, and that's probably why they didn't go to the election with any plans at all except for a tax cut. Well, that tax cut has done nothing to actually stimulate the economy. We're not even sure if people are going to be spending that tax cut. All we know is that they've been very quick to put in their tax returns. But giving people a tax cut does not address the need to drive the economy. That is just lazy politics from a lazy government that is too lazy to even come up with a plan.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:02</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>In rising to speak this afternoon, I am very, very comfortable about defending the track record of the coalition government and the plan that we are successfully implementing to provide a basis for economic growth in this country. Before I go into some of the details of that, I would just like to respond to some of the comments by those opposite. Senator Ayres did a good job of giving an address to a Labor Party branch meeting, demonising the Leader of the Government in the Senate. But, unfortunately for Senator Ayres, his characterisation of the government leader is not borne out by the facts of the situation. I ask, through you, Mr Acting Deputy President: is it cruel that the percentage of people of working age on welfare is at its lowest level for 30 years? Is that cruel? I don't think so.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator Polley, on a point of order?</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator Polley</name>
    <name.id>e5x</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Yes, Mr Acting Deputy President Sterle. It would be helpful if you were to draw the attention of the senator to the issue that we are debating here and bring him back to it—rather than him making personal attacks on fellow senators.</para>
</interjection>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>As I was speaking with the Clerk, I absolutely did not hear any of Senator Scarr's contribution. But, Senator Scarr, if you need to be cued on what the motion is, I'd bring it to your attention.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator SCARR</name>
    <name.id>282997</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Mr Acting Deputy President, I'm happy to compliment Senator Ayres. I actually think he's a nice guy. He's got a different view of how this country should get to where it needs to be to provide wonderful opportunities to everyone in Australia, but I think his heart's in the wrong—his heart's in the right place. It's hard for me to say, hence the freudian slip!</para>
<para>I think his heart's in the right place, but I disagree with his methodology.</para>
<para>Bringing it back to the facts: the percentage of people of working age on welfare is at its lowest level in 30 years. That is not cruel; that's a good thing. It's a good thing for this country. Female workforce participation is at a record high. That's a great thing for this country. In the seat of Wide Bay, held by my friend Mr Llew O'Brien, youth unemployment has decreased year on year, from 27.6 per cent to 18.4 per cent between June 2018 and June 2019. That's a fantastic thing. Why? Well, let's see what the member for Wide Bay says. He thinks that a major part of that success is the cashless welfare debit card. That is not cruel; that's helping young people get into employment, and that's what we should all be fighting for.</para>
<para>When those opposite start talking about plans, we on this side of the chamber know what they're talking about. They're talking about increased taxes and increased government spending; that's the plan. In my 32 years of being involved in politics I have never seen as much fear in the electorate as I saw during the last federal election. I've never seen so much fear in relation to a potential change in government. When I spoke to people after the last federal election, they said to me: 'It was like a weight had been lifted off our shoulders. We didn't even understand the pressure we felt.' These are small-business people. These are farmers. These are miners. These are everyday Australians. They said they hadn't even contemplated how much pressure they felt under because of that prospective change in government. So I would say to Senator Polley, if she were here, that they had in fact listened very carefully to the two plans that were put to them at the last federal election, and they made a deliberate choice. And nowhere did they make a more deliberate choice than in my home state of Queensland. It was an absolutely unequivocal choice, and they chose the economic plan that this side of the chamber took to the last federal election. I say to Senator Polley—through you, Mr Acting Deputy President Sterle—that the economy is not floundering.</para>
<para>I wish those on the other side of the chamber would stop talking down the Australian economy. They just keep talking down the Australian economy, and that is not in the national interest. We have an AAA credit rating. We have a trade surplus for the first time that anyone can remember. We have jobs growth. We have economic growth. This is a resilient economy which is performing extremely well against global trade-war headwinds. That's the reality of the situation. We are a trading nation. These are difficult times in the world at the moment, and the Australian economy is performing extremely well. Look at some of our competitors—Germany and Singapore. They both have AAA credit ratings. They've had negative growth. We're still achieving positive economic growth. We've had 28 consecutive years of positive economic growth. It's absolutely remarkable.</para>
<para>So the economy is not floundering. As we heard from the Leader of the Government in the Senate yesterday, the only floundering that's occurring is in the Labor Party. The Labor Party are floundering as to what policies they should come up with for the next federal election. Long may they flounder!</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>e68</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>The question is that the motion moved at the request of Senator Gallagher be agreed to. A division having been called, it being after 4.30 we shall address that next week.</para>
<para>Debate adjourned.</para>
</interjection>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>DOCUMENTS</title>
        <page.no>89</page.no>
        <type>DOCUMENTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Independent Health Advice Panel</title>
          <page.no>89</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Consideration</title>
            <page.no>89</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:11</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator AYRES</name>
    <name.id>16913</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I want to say from the beginning that this summary report of the Independent Health Advice Panel is proof that the medevac laws are working. They are sensible, humane laws that build public confidence in the administration of the Migration Act and support the maintenance of an effective border protection regime, and they mean that sick refugees and asylum seekers detained indefinitely on Nauru and Manus Island receive the medical care they seek.</para>
<para>Under the Migration Act and the laws commonly known as 'medevac', if the minister refuses the medical transfer of an individual on health grounds, the decision is reviewed by the Independent Health Advice Panel. The panel, or IHAP, is made up of government appointed doctors—that is, doctors appointed by the minister—and it includes a Commonwealth medical officer and the Chief Medical Officer for the Department of Home Affairs, as well as other leading independent doctors. The panel then reviews the minister's decision and can overturn it on medical grounds only.</para>
<para>This report reveals that, in the period 1 April through to 30 June, 15 cases were referred to the panel. Remember when Prime Minister Morrison flew the RAAF aircraft to Christmas Island—in probably the most expensive ever political ad—to announce that, as a result of the advent of the medevac legislation, the Christmas Island detention centre would have to be reopened? In fact, 15 cases were referred to the panel. In nine of those cases, the panel upheld the minister's refusal to transfer. They overturned his decision on health grounds on six occasions. This means that the independent panel has agreed with the minister on more occasions than not. So much for the scare campaign! All of the other successful transfers under medevac during this period could only have been because the minister agreed that these people needed to be transferred to Australia for medical treatment. So every time you hear the Minister for Home Affairs claim that medevac has resulted in a flood of people coming to Australia, he's crying wolf. It's contemptible. He's trying to carve out some partisan advantage by creating the spectre of unregulated arrivals seeking medical attention in Australia. The Minister for Home Affairs has approved every single transfer in the past three months, except six cases which were approved by a panel of doctors appointed by him. Sick refugees and asylum seekers detained indefinitely on Nauru and Manus Island should be able to receive the medical attention that they need.</para>
<para>I want to make it abundantly clear that Labor strongly supports the medevac legislation and that Labor will not change its position in relation to this legislation.</para>
<para>Whenever the Minister for Home Affairs's incompetence gets the better of him, he starts making outrageous claims to distract voters from what's really going on in the maladministration of his department. The Minister for Home Affairs is trying to distract everybody from his failures. Those failures include the 81,000 people who've arrived by aeroplane—not by boat, but by aeroplane—and claimed asylum in Australia, with over 90 per cent of these people being found not to be refugees; the egregious exploitation those people face when they're in Australia, including being paid as little as $4 an hour; the unfettered abuse of short-term work visas and work rights for student visa holders, exploiting vulnerable workers by undermining wages and living standards in the interests of profit for unscrupulous Australian businesses; the record-breaking 230,000 people on bridging visas in Australia; and the further 64,000 visa overstayers in Australia. These are the real failures of the Minister for Home Affairs. They are the signs of waste, incompetence and mismanagement. The medevac legislation is proof that it's a sensible, humane, responsible response to a significant problem.</para>
</speech>
<speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:16</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator CICCONE</name>
    <name.id>281503</name.id>
    <electorate>Victoria</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I also rise to speak on the quarterly report of the Independent Health Advice Panel. What the summary of this report makes abundantly clear is that medevac is working. It shouldn't be novel to anybody in this place—or indeed in our community—that if you are sick you should be able to see a doctor. This is exactly what medevac provides for. It allows vulnerable people in Nauru and on Manus Island to get the treatment they need, and all in a manner that is controlled by a minister or by government-appointed doctors. The quarterly report reveals that, in the period of 1 April to 30 June, 15 individual cases were referred to the panel. In nine cases the panel upheld the minister's decision to refuse a transfer and the decision was overturned in only half a dozen instances. This means that the independent panel has agreed with the minister on more occasions than not.</para>
<para>It is clear that the Morrison government and the Minister for Home Affairs will do everything in their power to discredit medevac as they attempt to repeal it. They claim that it is flawed, that it is slow or that it is legally fraught. They claim that the legislation undermines Australia's border security. They even claim that it allows criminals to come into Australia, yet they have no evidence to support this outrageous claim. The Minister for Home Affairs, Minister Dutton, has vigorously argued that 'two doctors from Nimbin' can force the government to bring people from Manus Island or Nauru to Australia. These claims are simply not true. The minister has claimed that 1,000 people would flood into Australia through medevac. That hasn't happened. The minister has also claimed that some doctors are working to bring refugees from Nauru and Papua New Guinea without the refugee even giving their consent. Again, there isn't a shred of evidence to support this.</para>
<para>The reality is that, out of the 75 submissions made to the Senate inquiry into the government's attempt to repeal medevac, only one submission supported the repeal of these laws: the Department of Home Affairs submission. What is clear is that the Minister for Home Affairs is attempting to cover up his failures—namely, the people smugglers are now using our visa system and airline arrivals to smuggle people into Australia. We know that over 81,000 people have arrived in Australia by aeroplane and claimed asylum on Minister Dutton's watch. We know that criminal syndicates are forcing people to apply for asylum in Australia knowing that, because of Minister Dutton's incompetence and mismanagement, it will take years for their claim to be processed. These exploited people are placed on bridging visas while their claim for asylum is assessed, and labour hire companies make them work in exploitative conditions. It is leading to an exploited workforce where people are paid as little as $4 to $5 an hour and being held in conditions that, one might suggest, resemble slavery. Whilst the minister and this government make outrageous claims about medevac, know that this report proves him wrong and his department wrong. And, more importantly, in making these claims, all he's trying to do is distract from his incompetence and failures in administering his department.</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.2><subdebate.2><subdebateinfo>
            <title>Consideration</title>
            <page.no>90</page.no>
          </subdebateinfo></subdebate.2></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORTS</title>
        <page.no>91</page.no>
        <type>AUDITOR-GENERAL'S REPORTS</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>91</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:22</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
    <electorate>New South Wales</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I rise to speak on the <inline font-style="italic">Auditor-General report No.</inline><inline font-style="italic">39 2018–19 performance audit: </inline><inline font-style="italic">the Bureau of Meteorology's delivery of extreme weather services</inline><inline font-style="italic">.</inline> According to the Department of the Environment and Energy portfolio budget statements 2018-19:</para>
<quote><para class="block">The Bureau of Meteorology is responsible for the Outcome:</para></quote>
<list>Enabling a safe, prosperous, secure and healthy Australia through the provision of weather, water, climate and ocean services.</list>
<para>The bureau's weather forecasts, warnings and analyses support decision-making by the government, by industry, and by the community. Australian sectors which rely heavily on timely and accurate weather services include emergency management, aviation, maritime, defence, agriculture, energy and resources. The bureau delivers forecasts and warning services for all meteorological events. Extreme weather services are a core function of the bureau, which is integrated with its delivery of routine weather services. The bureau delivers domestic forecast and warning services for a wide range of extreme weather events. These include floods, thunderstorms, fires, tropical cyclones, storm surges, hazardous surf and storm tides, tsunamis and heatwave conditions. Effective forecasts and warnings are very important in allowing the bureau's stakeholders, its customers and the public to prepare for extreme weather events, reducing the potential for loss of life and damage to infrastructure and property. This is the rationale behind the undertaking of this audit report. The importance of delivering independent, accurate and quality forecasts is emphasised in this report. The Bureau of Meteorology and the Meteorology Act 1955 are within the responsibility of the Department of the Environment and Energy.</para>
<para>While we're on the topic of independence and the Department of the Environment and Energy, it leads me to contrast the approach taken by the Bureau of Meteorology, which has been largely affirmed by this audit report, with concerns that have been raised about the independence of some other decision-making in this area. There is a serious cloud hanging over the government's head and over the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction. On Tuesday, in the other place, the government refused to debate a censure motion proposed by the Leader of the Opposition against the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction, Mr Taylor. The Prime Minister wasn't prepared to defend his minister, and the minister wasn't prepared to defend himself, so they shut down the debate.</para>
<para>Tonight I'm putting the case against the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction. The case against this minister is very clear: he used his public office to advance private interests. He kept these private interests secret, because he knew he was doing the wrong thing. When he got caught out, he pretended he wasn't acting for private gain; he said he was 'looking out for farmers in his electorate'. He even invented a constituent—the man from Yass—as a cover for his deception.</para>
<para>The game is well and truly up. It wasn't 'the man from Yass' who ratted on him; it was the member for Hume, the minister himself. He ratted on himself! On 28 July, he admitted to ABC Illawarra that he was representing private interests all along. He was looking after private interests when he complained to the now Treasurer about an investigation by the environment department. Of course, the now Treasurer was the Minister for Environment and Energy during much of the period covered by this audit report. The now Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction, a cabinet minister administering the Department of the Environment and Energy, was looking after private interests when he got the now Treasurer to organise a meeting with the environment department. He was looking after private interests when he asked the Treasurer if science could be ignored in his personal favour. He was looking after private interests when he failed to tell the department and the parliament about his land ownership. He was looking after private interests when he misled the other place again and again about how the grasslands listings affected him in his electorate. Imagine if this sort of interference of which I'm talking occurred with the forecasting of weather!</para>
<para>We knew all along that he was not being up-front. He admitted it on the ABC regional radio program in late July. When asked about the impact of the grasslands listing on landholders in his region, he said, 'One of the landholders is me.' That's right—it was about him all along. He even doubled down. He said: 'I make absolutely no apologies for standing up for farmers in my region. That includes me.' He makes absolutely no apologies for acting in his self-interest despite being a cabinet minister. It's truly outrageous behaviour.</para>
<para>The case against the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction is clear: he has breached his obligations to the parliament to disclose his private interests, he has breached the Statement of Ministerial Standards by using his public office for personal gain and he has compounded that breach by not disclosing his interests and misleading the parliament about his motivations. Each of these breaches—and there are several of them—is serious. Each breach betrays the trust placed in the minister to pursue the public interest above all else.</para>
<para>This minister, Mr Taylor, thinks it's good enough for <inline font-style="italic">The Guardian</inline> to discover his interests in Jam Land and put it on the public record. He reckons that meets the standard of disclosure required by members and ministers. What a load of tosh! Jam Land is subject to a long-running compliance investigation by the Department of the Environment and Energy under the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act. It's alleged Jam Land poisoned 30 hectares of critically endangered grassland. These grasslands are amongst the most vulnerable ecological communities in Australia and are home to 19 threatened species. The minister wanted the investigation of Jam Land to stop, and he worked to that end while keeping his interests in Jam Land secret.</para>
<para>So seriously does the other place take the disclosure of private interests that less than 18 months ago it censured the former member for Dunkley, Mr Billson, for 'failing to fulfil his responsibilities as a member by appropriately declaring his personal and pecuniary interests'. The explanatory notes accompanying the House statement of registrable interests say this:</para>
<list>Where interests are held in a private holding company (i.e. a proprietary company formed for the purpose of investing in subsidiary companies) all such subsidiary companies, and any subsidiary companies held by those subsidiary companies, should be named.</list>
<para>The Clerk of the House said this:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Where interests are held in a private holding company, then all subsidiary companies and any subsidiary companies held by those subsidiary companies should be named.</para></quote>
<para>The Prime Minister's Statement of Ministerial Standards says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">All parliamentarians are required to disclose private interests to the parliament.</para></quote>
<para>And it says:</para>
<quote><para class="block">Ministers must declare and register their personal interests, including but not limited to pecuniary interests, as required by the Parliament from time to time.</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">…   …   …</para></quote>
<quote><para class="block">Failure to declare or register a relevant and substantive personal interest as required by the Parliament constitutes a breach of these Standards.</para></quote>
<para>The obligations imposed on the Minister for Energy and Emissions Reduction to disclose his holding in Jam Land could not be clearer. It's not like this bloke doesn't know about subsidiary companies. He's constructed this. He is, after all, an architect of a scheme to register interests in the Cayman Islands, that notorious tax haven much favoured by tax evaders, money launderers and more than one minister who has served in the Abbott-Turnbull-Morrison government.</para>
<para>The minister's interest in Jam Land is held through Guffy, his self-described investment company. The minister didn't disclose Guffy's interest in Jam Land because, once it was disclosed, his campaign to undermine the EPBC Act would be clear for all to see.</para>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, I remind you of standing order 193, subparagraph 3, about imputations, which was highlighted by the President earlier today. You've just implied an improper motive. I ask you to withdraw that and then continue.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>I find that I have laid out the actual facts of the case. If somebody seeks to determine that that's an imputation of the minister's character I would be inclined to agree with them, but I have simply disclosed the facts of the matter.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Senator O'Neill, I have asked you to withdraw the imputation of motive. I ask you to withdraw that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>With respect, Mr Acting Deputy President, I simply said that the minister did not disclose Guffy's interest in Jam Land.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>But you said 'because'—that was the imputation.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>Because, once it was disclosed, his campaign to undermine the EPBC Act would be clear for all to see.</para>
</continue>
<interjection>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">The ACTING DEPUTY PRESIDENT</name>
    <name.id>DYU</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>That's an imputation of motive. You will withdraw that.</para>
</interjection>
<continue>
  <talker>
    <name role="metadata">Senator O'NEILL</name>
    <name.id>140651</name.id>
  </talker>
  <para>To assist the chamber I will withdraw, but I think anybody who reads facts would read it in the same way. There is a reason for the subterfuge. The reason he invented the man from Yass is that this minister does not want to tell the truth about his personal interference in the department for his own personal gain. He should resign. I seek leave to continue my remarks later.</para>
<para>Leave granted; debate adjourned.</para>
</continue>
</speech>
</subdebate.1><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Consideration</title>
          <page.no>93</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo></subdebate.1></debate>
    <debate><debateinfo>
        <title>ADJOURNMENT</title>
        <page.no>93</page.no>
        <type>ADJOURNMENT</type>
      </debateinfo><subdebate.1><subdebateinfo>
          <title>Northern Australia</title>
          <page.no>93</page.no>
        </subdebateinfo><speech>
  <talker>
    <time.stamp>17:33</time.stamp>
    <name role="metadata">Senator WATT</name>
    <name.id>245759</name.id>
    <electorate>Queensland</electorate>
  </talker>
  <para>I'm sure everyone is pleased that we are adjourning a little bit early this evening, and I'll do my best to give the chamber, particularly Minister Ruston, something worthwhile to listen to over the next 10 minutes or so. I just wanted to take the opportunity to reflect on a number of issues that have arisen over the last couple of months and have been brought to my attention in my capacity as the shadow minister for northern Australia. I was very grateful for the opportunity to be appointed to this role after the election. It builds on my longstanding interest in matters affecting parts of regional Queensland, particularly North Queensland and Central Queensland. But, obviously, this new role has a much broader scope, particularly including the Northern Territory and the northern part of Western Australia.</para>
<para>I think it's appropriate this week to be talking about issues facing the north of our country, because this week has marked one of the greatest events that's held on the parliamentary calendar every year, and that is the Facing North festival. I think that those members who have taken the opportunity to participate in it will have felt richly rewarded. Facing North is an incredibly impressive event sponsored by the Northern Territory government and a range of business organisations. Facing North sees a large delegation of Northern Territory government, business, Indigenous and other community representatives make the trip down here to Canberra to talk up the Northern Territory. I have to say, as someone who's now had reason to spend a lot more time in the Northern Territory, there's an awful lot to be proud of and an awful lot to spruik.</para>
<para>Over the course of this week, I have had a number of meetings and attended forums with representatives from the Northern Territory and I've learnt a lot more about what's needed and what's working and what's not working—and I know I wasn't alone in doing so. There have been a number of other senators and members take part in that as well.</para>
<para>I might just run through some of the groups that I've met with over the last few weeks in this role across northern Australia and the issues that have been brought to my attention that I think we all need to try to take a bit more action on. But, before I get into some of those details, I think it's fair to say that there has been some fairly consistent feedback that I've received from business, government, Indigenous and community organisations based right across the north, and, if I had to sum it up in one way it would be that there remains a lot of excitement about the potential that exists in northern Australia. 'Potential' is a word that you hear over and over again in northern Australia. The only thing that often comes with it is a degree of frustration that potential is something that has been talked about in the north of our country for a very long time, and there is very much a feeling that people are still waiting to see this government and other people really take advantage of that potential and help the north realise it.</para>
<para>Overall, the sentiment that I've been picking up, whether it be in Cairns, Mackay, Townsville, Rockhampton Moranbah, other parts of Queensland, Darwin, Katherine, Yulara, the Northern Territory or Western Australia, is that people do feel frustrated. There was a lot of excitement about the northern Australia white paper that the government released four years ago—two prime ministers ago; that's how long ago it was released—but there is a lot of frustration that it hasn't achieved more after four years. What's really coming through is a feeling that this government has really overpromised and underdelivered when it comes to what's actually been achieved in northern Australia.</para>
<para>When you think about that, that is something that I think can be said about the government more generally. Whether we be talking about infrastructure, about how the economy's going, about jobs, about wages or about a whole range of social policy areas, this government is—let's give them credit—very good at talking the talk, at making the announcements and at the marketing, but the follow through, the delivery and the achievements don't ever really match those expectations. That's certainly the feeling that exists in relation to the government's northern Australia agenda.</para>
<para>That's one of the reasons why Labor, with the support of the crossbench, recently established a new Senate Select Committee to review the effectiveness of the government's northern Australia agenda. It was clear to me that, while there has been a lot of attention on aspects of that northern Australia agenda—in particular, the problems that have existed around the NAIF, the Northern Australia Infrastructure Facility—no-one independent of the government has really had a good look at the northern Australia agenda overall to see what's working, what from the government is worth praising from the government, what's not working and what can be improved. People are sick of waiting for this potential that they keep being told about to be delivered and to be realised. As I say, people sort of feel that after four years there would be more to show for the northern Australia agenda that the government has spent so much time and energy marketing. That's the purpose of that Senate inquiry. Submissions close on 20 September—so a bit over a week away—and there's still an opportunity for people to get involved if they wish to do so.</para>
<para>As I say, that's the overarching sentiment that's been coming through: a sense of overpromising, underdelivering and not really meeting expectations. I've had more than one person raise with me the need for what they have called the 'northern Australia white paper 2.0'—that the white paper needs a refresh, that it needs a review, that it needs a really good looking at and that it needs a reinvention. If you look at the government's northern Australia white paper, you'll see, again, to be fair, that there are some very good initiatives in there and some very good suggestions and recommendations. The question is: what has actually been delivered after four years? But also, if you look at that white paper, you'll see that things have moved on and it is already a little bit dated. There are new and emerging industries cropping up right across northern Australia that have huge potential that don't even get a mention in the white paper. As with any big policy document, there's always a time to review it, to refresh it and to make sure that it remains relevant, and I think that time is here now. That is, again, one of the reasons for that white paper 2.0.</para>
<para>As I say, I've spent a lot of time over the last couple of months, particularly over the winter recess, getting out and about, right across northern Australia, to meet stakeholders—to start meeting some of the people who are leading the agenda for northern Australia. I've met with people from government, from business, from Indigenous organisations and from community organisations. I've lost count of the number of times I've been into Darwin since the election. Also, more recently, I've made the trip out to Katherine and a couple of spots along the way, to meet with everyone from the Northern Land Council to the Northern Territory Cattlemen's Association, from the Northern Territory Farmers Association to the proponents of the ship lift in Darwin, as well as visiting Indigenous rangers' conferences and meeting with representatives from the tourism industry and from barramundi farms—a whole group of people, ranging across agriculture, mining and other industries.</para>
<para>Again, what you really pick up when you're talking to people is a huge level of excitement about the opportunity that remains in northern Australia. Let's face it: it's next door to the fastest growing region in the world, with enormous economic opportunities just on our doorstep, and some of those places in Darwin, in particular, are just a stone's throw away. There are massive opportunities that still exist there, if only we can have the policies in place to support that kind of development.</para>
<para>In my own home state of Queensland, of course, I've been active as well, getting to Cairns, Mackay, Townsville, Rocky, Moranbah and a number of other places. One important thing that I wanted to note was that I did have the opportunity to undertake a three-day visit to Central Queensland with our new deputy leader, Richard Marles, the member for Corio, because we on the Labor side recognised that there was a clear message sent at the election, from Central Queensland in particular, that people thought that Labor had lost touch with Central Queensland. You've only got to look at the election results there to see that sentiment. That's why it was important to get senior people like our deputy leader back out to Central Queensland as quickly as possible, to really appreciate why people turned against us, to learn the sorts of things they want to see from Labor over this term of government, and, importantly, to hear from them about where they still feel that this government is not meeting their aspirations. I've visited the Caval Ridge coalmine, to see right up close what's happening there; I've met with people from defence maintenance industries in Cairns; and I've met with people from the resources, agriculture and tourism sectors as well.</para>
<para>I won't go into too much more detail. The only other thing I did want to put on record was a fantastic trip through Western Australian and Northern Territory desert communities with a number of colleagues. The state of Indigenous housing in this country remains shameful, along with health issues and employment issues. There is an awful lot more to be done. Hopefully we can do that. <inline font-style="italic">(Time expired)</inline></para>
<para>Senate adjourned at 17 : 44</para>
</speech>
</subdebate.1></debate>
  </chamber.xscript>
</hansard>